Talk:Liberal

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Perspective

Can it be said that only liberals supported civil rights for blacks in the 60s, or was it conservatives as well? Pass a Method talk 21:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I grew up at that time, and it is not a question of which group supported what, but rather a question of how words were used. The word liberal was used to describe support for Civil Rights. The word conservative was used to describe support for racial segregation. Over time, as support of segregation grew less and less popular, people who wanted to promote the conservative cause, like William F. Buckley, Jr., issued public statements saying that they had changed their minds. People who were not alive then have trouble understanding how the meaning of words has shifted, a problem complicated by the fact that in the South, the conservative party was the Democratic Party. The South was solid Democrat until Democratic president Lyndon Johnson supported Civil Rights. Then, almost overnight, they became solid Republican, and remain so to this day. It is because of Lyndon Johnson that almost all Blacks vote for the Democrat in presidential elections. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Both writers here are talking about the USA. There were parallel civil rights movements in other countries. I'm familiar with that in Australia. Because the more conservative major political party there calls itself the Liberal Party, the discussion above is moot for Australia. This article is global. It must be very careful with different language uses in different parts of the world. HiLo48 (talk) 22:45, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The section refers to "modern" liberals, which presumably excludes right-wing elements in the two US parties and the Australian Liberal Party. The opponents of the CRA also used liberal arguments to defend their position. TFD (talk) 23:53, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

We really need to get rid of the American bias here. All around the world there are extant classical liberal thinkers, economists and political parties. Most are called libertarian, neo-liberal or just classical liberal (the term is applied in retrospect by people like Hayek who told the UK liberal democrats that there party didn’t warrant the word). The point is; classical liberalism is extant.

The history of both classical and social liberalism goes into the present.

During the American civil rights movement there were classical liberals like Barry Goldwater. His position was constitutionalist. He believed in freedom of association and freedom of disasosiation. So he rejected the state enforced segregation but also rejected state enforced association (even though he personally rejected racism).

In contrast an economic and political analysis of South Africa shows that Apartheid began as a labour movement and it was the classical liberals that fought it. See: The Economics of the Colour Bar: A Study of the Economic Origins and Consequences of Racial Segregation in South Africa by William Harold Hutt. http://www.mises.org/books/colour.pdf This deserves weight in the article. Rothbardanswer (talk) 11:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48: I agree. This article must not become too focused on the US. When Pass a Method asked about Civil Rights, by first thought was about my own experience.

Rothbardanswer: The problem with using Think Tanks as sources is that they always arrive at the conclusion they want to arrive at, no matter what the question is.

Rick Norwood (talk) 12:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Rick Norwood: The Economics of the Colour Bar was originally printed in London by Merritt & Hatcher Ltd. The Mises institute isn't a think tank. It receives all it's funding independently of political institutions. Many of it's works are reprints and you could probably find multiple publishers, but you'd be hard pressed to find a publisher more objective and useful than the Mises institute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer (talk • contribs) 13:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The book says it was "published for the Institute of Economic Affairs" (p. 4). Merritt & Hatcher were merely the printers (p. 5). As the preface says, it is "a new contribution to the debate that has been overlooked both by supporters and opponents" (p. 7). It was published in 1964 and therefore probably not a good source in any case. The author makes the point that color disrimination was introduced to appease mining unions (p. 62), not that it began as a labor movement. And he does not deny that racism in S. Africa had its origins in slavery and colonialism. I suppose the point is that the free market liberal mine owners would have been happy to hire black workers at lower wages, rather than discriminate against them by taking on higher paid white workers. TFD (talk) 18:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the issue of the continued existence of classical liberalism: Yes, classical liberals certainly exist, but, in the vast majority of cases, they are members of the same political parties and organizations as the social liberals. The Liberal International, for example, is very happy to include both laissez-faire parties and pro-welfare-state parties. The point I am trying to make is that the distinction between classical liberalism and social liberalism is not nearly as sharp or clear-cut as you make it out to be, Rothbardanswer. With the exception of the most extreme supporters of each side, the majority of classical and social liberals see each other as part of a single continuum, not as two entirely distinct traditions. Many classical liberals support some small degree of welfare provision (Hayek himself occasionally made comments in this direction), and most social liberals, although they support state intervention in the economy, support less of it than their non-liberal rivals in the same country. Thus, classical and social liberals often find common ground in advocating a smaller state than the non-liberals would like (though they may disagree on precisely how small it should get, in an ideal liberal world). User1961914 (talk) 14:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The debate within liberalism today is about levels of social welfare spending and tax rates rather than whether to return to 19th century economics. And "progressives" have accepted many of the neoliberal reforms of the 1980s and in fact pioneered them in the 1970s. TFD (talk) 19:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

A few edits

I made a few edits to the lede, which I consider to be rather small, but I want to explain them here because this is an article that tends to attract controversy.

The last time I looked at this article was last summer. I noticed some changes had been made to the lede since then - one of them sourced (the one mentioning the decline of classical liberalism in favor of social democracy and social liberalism), and others unsourced. The unsourced changes turned the story about ideologies in the 20th century into a story about countries (or "regimes") in the 20th century. Thus, the rivalry between liberalism, communism and fascism was presented as a rivalry between countries, whereas previously it had been presented as a rivalry between ideologies. Since this is an article about the ideology of liberalism, it is appropriate to talk about ideological conflicts, not about the governments of the world at the time of the Cold War. An ideological conflict is not (or not only) a conflict between countries. Liberalism is present in many countries where the government is not liberal, and non-liberal ideologies are present in liberal democracies. So I have made the necessary edits to return the lede to talking about ideologies, not countries. -- User1961914 (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Reference

I do not believe that the individual editor who removed my reference ( juanuary 16-17), 2013):

• Carlo Gambescia,” Liberalismo triste. Un percorso: Da Burke a Berlin, Edizioni “, Edizioni Il Foglio, Piombino LI, 2012 – ISBN 978 88 7606 4005 ( *Carlo Gambescia,”Melancholy Liberalism - A Road Map: From Burke to Berlin, “ Edizioni Il Foglio, Piombino LI, 2012 – ISBN 978 88 7606 4005 )

has read my book. So before the beginning of any discussion on the contents of liberalism, he would prove (immediate proof) that he had read my book. C.G. January 17, 2013.

The references section is meant to list books that are referenced in the article instead of repeating them in Liberalism#Notes. However your book is not used as a source for the article. TFD (talk) 17:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

So would it be to inaugurate a bibliography section open to all contributions, including foreigners. Otherwise whoever is not part of some "inner circle" is condemned to stay out ... Excellent example of scientificity! C.G. January 17 , 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.55.214.188 (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Even if there were a bibliography section, it would include only the most well-known works. Certainly there is no discrimination against "foreigners", but the best known works (Pareto, Gramsci, De Ruggiero, Bobbio) tend to be translated into English. Has your book been reviewed? TFD (talk) 21:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. You must not change the subject: the point is not established between me and Bobbio who is best known: It is obvious that Bobbio is most famous. However, a scholar is not a pop singer ... The scientific method requires (especially when you want to do the editor of an encyclopedia) to read my book, and judging on the basis of what is written there. So shut me out or not, only after, not before ... A scientific work is not a hit musical ... And, unfortunately, like every social scientist knows, ignorance of the scientific method brings with it - always - the discrimination... C.G. 18 January 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.55.214.188 (talk) 08:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

There are policies that we must follow, such as WP:WEIGHT. Obviously that restricts what can be added to articles. TFD (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Caption to the picture on child labor

In the "Aftermath of the French Revolution" section, there's a picture that apparently depicts child labor with a caption that reads: "The relatively laissez-faire liberal economy of the Industrial Revolution and rise of living standards allowed an increasingly larger number of parents to avoid sending their children to work.[41][42]"

Source 41 is an article from the 19th century, which seems questionable to include since doing so may involve original research, the citation lacks explanation on how to interpret it, and since the source was written in an era when child labor was legal. Source 42 mentions that the claim that the laissez-faire liberal economy of the Industrial Revolution allowed parents to avoid sending their children to work is in fact controversial among historians. So this source does not really support the caption. It does emphasize that the Industrial Revolution was accompanied by an increase in child labor, which would seem to undermine the thrust of the caption (i.e., the liberal economy of the Industrial Revolution at best fixed a problem with rising living standards that it may have helped create with social upheaval).

The relationship between liberalism and child labor in the 19th century is complicated. I don't mean to suggest that liberal economic policies were primarily responsible for the increase in child labor in Britain in the 19th century, but the caption misleadingly suggests that the sources it presents suggest the opposite, which they do not. It should be changed by someone currently working on the article.74.232.71.246 (talk) 07:37, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The image is from Conservative MP Lord Ashley's Mines Commission of 1842,[1] which led to the Mines and Collieries Act 1842 banning children under ten from working in coal mines. The caption was changed and is wholly misleading. I will restore the original caption. TFD (talk) 12:33, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The editor who credits "classical liberalism" with the reduction in child labour in England has put that view back, but it is not supported by his sources, which credit other factors, notably scientific advances. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I re-restored it. TFD (talk) 03:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The definition of Liberalism

In the very first line of the article, I noticed that one user edited the definition of another user, basically changing "liberty and justice" to "liberty and equality". Now the choice of the word equality is controversial. What does "equality" mean? Certainly egalitarianism (the way its traditionally known) is not something that Classical Liberalism holds to define "Liberalism". In the classical liberal notion, inequality is the norm; some would call it 'natural inequality' or 'organic conception of society'. Basically, freemarket economics naturally makes a social hierarchy, therefore "equality" is not a tenet of Liberalism. Since this article is tending to both Social/Modern and Classical Liberalism, this definition favors one side over the other. I ask that an alternative definition be sought, i actually prefer the previous one "justice" over "liberty". 24.90.230.216 (talk) 01:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

"Equality" is the term used by reliable sources. Although Marxists consider the equality under liberalism to be hollow, because social inequality remains, it is nonetheless a tenet. TFD (talk) 02:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is used by "reliable sources", but given that the word "liberal" has so many different meanings, one would assume each 'source' is referring to a separate respective "liberalism" (perhaps, Social Liberalism, rather than Classical). Personally, I'm a classical liberal oriented person myself, and i find the use of the term "equality" questionable. And the cited 'source' isn't very helpful either. 24.90.230.216 (talk) 03:41, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

When terms have different meanings, we use DISAMBIG. TFD (talk) 04:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

So called classical liberals do support equality under the law. They would oppose (or most of them would) a law that allowed only rich people to vote. As for so-called equality of outcomes, that is largely a red herring, since no social liberals I know want that. I suppose there are still a few Marxists out there who do, but no matter what certain opponents of liberalism say, liberalism isn't Marxism. In any case, the major sources writing about liberalism say "liberty and equality" are characteristic of liberalism, and distinguish it from other political systems, such as monarchy and dictatorship. Justice, on the other hand, does not have the characteristic of distinguishing between various "isms". Even a king is in favor of justice. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure why so many different users are bringing up Marxism, or what it has to do with my query. I'm not a Marxist, if i were than i wouldn't have questioned the cited definition of Liberalism. My objection was to the "equality" part, as we classical liberals are not egalitarians, and therefore while some of us may prefer the romantic notion of 'equality' others very much prefer an 'organic hierarchy' or 'natural inequality'. As for the claim that, all men believe in "justice" even if it seems unjust by someone else (monarchy vs democracy); that very much describes what i believe the Classical Liberal notion of "justice" really is. It may seem just for some, but not by others (i.e. there is a wealth gap, and class division); what makes it just from our perspective is not where people stand or were born, but the differentiation between Positive right vs Negative right, or positive liberty vs negative liberty. In such context, to talk about "equality" (egalitarianism) would be an act of coercion, as Negative Rights/Liberty entails the 'individual' to strive for his own interest above others (i.e. inequality). The whole point of my argument is that, we should have a definition that conforms to both the Classical and Social liberalisms, rather than a disputable one.24.90.230.216 (talk) 19:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Again you need a source that presents the view you believe should be shown. Arguments and personal opinions, no matter how valid are unacceptable because statements in articles must be sourced. Incidentally, the concept of "positive rights" is based on freedom, not equality. TFD (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)