Talk:Suicide

This needs some clarification, but I'm drawing a blank on how to do so. Killing oneself is not always suicide. For example, jumping on a grenade to save fellow soldiers is (in the case of mortal injury) killing oneself, but this isn't considered suicide. Any suggestions? ColinR 20:44, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

• Killing oneself is always suicide. According to Durkheim, a famous sociologist, he states that there are four different types of suicides. The example you mention above would be defined as altruistic suicide because it is killing oneself for the good of others.

Cut:

although some radical Islamic Mullahs (teachers) claim that if it is committed as part of a religious war, the suicide will be rewarded in Paradise.

Too controversial for such an off-hand reference. Should be more than a subordinate clause. --Ed Poor 11:54, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Jumping on a grenade is not generally considered "suicide" but an act of self-sacrifice. However, storming a pill box has been described as a "suicidal charge".

Okay, let's get into it. Were the Japanese kamikaze "suicide bombers"? Is strapping yourself with explosives, entering a crowded bus or restaurant and detonating them an "murder-suicide" or what? --Ed Poor 11:57, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Cut from article:

Certain Islamist groups such as Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, however, say suicide is justified in attacks against infidels or apostate Muslims.

I have a number of objections to this sentence.

1. What in tarnation does Islamist mean?
2. Who cares what terrorists groups say - about anything?
3. Sources: Is there really a quote saying that suicide is a weapon for Muslims to use against non-Muslims? --Ed Poor 11:54, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

martyrdom is rewarded in the koran. it says that if you kill an infidel as a martyr you get the whole deal. i thought an islamist was a terrorist who uses islam to justify his acts.Bohdan

Please write about this in Martyrdom or Koran. I'd also like to see more about the difference between Islam (the religion) and Islamist (someone who uses Islam to justify terrorism or other nasty things. --Ed Poor 12:01, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

I'll try. Im not even sure thats what an islamist is though.Bohdan

No one else is, either. Wikipedia failed to address this problem and wound up with multiple articles like Islamofascist, Islamicist, Islamist, etc. We should have an article on the religion + ONE article on political use of Muslim religious ideas. --Ed Poor 12:14, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

agreedBohdan

I would consider storming a pillbox to not be suicide but rather exposing oneself to homicide. I suppose it could be a fine line. Tisane 17:48, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

Any article on suicide would be incomplete without some mention of depression, which is treatable. Npov2 18:39, 13 January 2008 (EST)

In an edit comment, MexMax asks "in what jurisdictions is suicide not a crime?".

I believe that here in Australia it's not considered a crime. So the "crime or sin" phrase in Australia would leave it saying that suicide is the sin of killing oneself, and whilst that would be true, many people who would not consider it a sin would still consider it suicide, so the definition in the article would not satisfy everyone. On the other hand, CSGuy's edit would imply (although it doesn't explicitly state) that whether or not it's a sin depends on one's religion, whereas it is either a sin or not a sin regardless of what one believes about it. So his wording is not perfect either.

My dictionary says that suicide is the deliberate killing of oneself, yet there's no mention of that in the introduction. And further to discussions above about self-sacrifice, I think the distinction is that suicide has the intention of killing oneself, whereas self-sacrifice has the intention of saving others, knowing that one will die in the process, but killing oneself is not the intention.

Philip J. Rayment 19:28, 13 January 2008 (EST)

We're not going to allow liberal bias in this entry, or any other here. Hence the reversion.--Aschlafly 13:08, 18 February 2008 (EST)

I am puzzled. Is it "liberal bias" to state (as a simple definition) that suicide means the act of killing oneself, and then to move on to state that for a Christian it is a crime/sin? I thought it made more sense to deal with the simple fact before moving on to what might be seen as its interpretation in various religions. Humblpi 13:47, 18 February 2008 (EST)

It is placement bias to move that description to later, and dilute the first sentence. Placement bias is rampant at Wikipedia, but not here.--Aschlafly 14:05, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Andy just to let you know I did delete the "sin" in the first sentence - but only because it was repeated in the second sentence (so the article had read "Suicide is the crime or sin of killing of oneself. This is a sin ..." - which is obviously redundant). However, Humblpi - I agree with Andy that you deleting both "crime" and "sin" was placement bias--IDuan 14:13, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Fine - though as a matter of fact I did not delete the word "sin". Humblpi 14:19, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Thanks, Iduan, but I think we need "crime or sin" in the first sentence, both to avoid placement bias and because it may not universally be true that it is a crime.--Aschlafly 14:20, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Ok no problem, although I might rephrase the first two sentences if that's ok with you - I'll leave the first sentence as is, but I'll try to combine the second sentence better so it doesn't seem as redundant.--IDuan 14:22, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Done.--IDuan 14:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Let's be honest people. Suicide is not against the law in the VAST majority of countries in the world. This encyclopedia is supposed to report the TRUTH. Saying that suicide is a "crime" is simply dishonest, unless the Consevapedia is aimed mainly at the people of Syria and Turkmenistan. But of course it isn't; the vast majority of readers and editors of Conservapedia are American (just look at the logo). It is irrelevant whether suicide OUGHT to be illegal, fact is that it is legal in the United States and most other countries, and this FACT should not be distorted.

I have nothing agaist phrases such as "sucide was a crime" or "suicide is immoral", but saying that "suicide is a crime" is a lie, plain and simple. At least according to Conservapedias own definition of crime Harebrained 20:51, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

I think they used to give you a suspended sentence in some places for a botched suicide attempt. There's a dark joke I'm reminded of "The penalty for attempting suicide is death" The user formerly known as DLerner 21:01, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

If you acknowledge that it is a crime in some countries, how is is "dishonest" to call it a crime? Misleading, perhaps, but not dishonest, and not a lie. Changing it to "was a crime" when it still is in some places would be dishonest. And your comment about the American-ness of Conservapedia, although accurate, is unconvincing to this Aussie. Can you supply some evidence that it "is not against the law in the VAST majority of countries in the world". If so, I might add that into a footnote in order that the statement is clearer. Philip J. Rayment 08:36, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

It would be just as dishonest to call Women's Soccer a crime just becuase it's illegal in Iran and a handful of other obscure countries. Failing to mention the whole truth is also a form of lying. Harebrained 08:10, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I asked if you can supply evidence that it "is not against the law in the VAST majority of countries in the world". How about trying to be constructive by answering that instead of continuing to criticise when I've already said that it could be altered to be clearer? Philip J. Rayment 08:28, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

By the way, Harebrained, you need a remedial lesson in not taking God's name in vain. (I meant to post this last night, but I got caught by the night-time editing restrictions.) Fortunately, an admin cleared that up for you, but I'd suggest following the First Commandment around here. --Elkman 11:34, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

What are you on about? The First Commandment states "Everything you post must be true and verifiable. Do not copy from Wikipedia or elsewhere unless it was your original work." It mentions nothing about using the expression "for Christ's sake". Neither do any of the other commandments. In fact, I could not find a rule in Conservapedia that forbids this. Besides, "for Christ's sake" is just a figure of speech in this context, and altough it has a Christian origin I did not use it in a religious context here, so i don't see why it's offensive to you. The English language is teeming with figures of speech of a biblical origin. Harebrained 08:10, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Try Conservapedia commandment 3. It's trivialising Christ to use it that way. Philip J. Rayment 08:28, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Try a direct order from me, Harebrained: you will not use that expression, nor any other form of foul or insulting language, on this website, period. Karajou 10:06, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

We should include some information about demoralization due to anti-war politician's activities. During Vietnam, many soldiers began to doubt the cause they were fighting for due to the debate that raged at home, and many turned to drugs such as heroin and marijuana. Considering that this is a place where many military families may come to learn about the subject, we should include a line or a disclaimer which states that liberals and their anti-military stances can lead to psychological distress amongst our Fighting Men and Women, and potentially suicide. Mcliff 09:58, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm going to look for more information to verify this, but as far as I know, most 1st world countries do not criminalize suicide. I think it would be more accurately stated as "suicide was once considered criminal in many countries, but many of these laws have been overturned" with a list of countries in which it IS a crime. The only thing I know that is criminal about suicide in the United States (where I live) is to assist in a suicide or incite someone to suicide.

I'll try and find more information on this, but I may clean up the article (and expand to include mental illness, Durkheim, etc.) in a couple of days based on Russel's Teapot. If anyone has a problem with this, please post on my talk page or respond here -- I still unsure of the rules here, and so I don't know if Russel's Teapot is enough to back up an edit. Thanks!--Limbo 11:53, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

I don't mean to imply that Russel's Teapot is all I would be using -- just what I am using to initially begin a rewriting of the criminal aspect. I will also rely on the work of Durkheim, Alvarez, and others. I will cite my sources:) --Limbo 11:54, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Have you read the other comments above about this point? And how is Russell's teapot relevant to this? Philip J. Rayment 05:19, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

I have read the other comments above. There is no first world country that categorizes suicide as a crime (according to the Australia LifeForce Suicide Prevention program, Australia no longer criminalizes either suicide or attempted suicide), and to say that it is a crime is misinformed and wrong.

Russell's teapot is relevant because it says that the burden of proof falls upon the person making the accusation or the statement. Without this logic, I could claim that Ayn Rand had a tail, and could claim so until someone else proved that she didn't. In this situation, suicide was claimed as a crime, when (in fact) it isn't according to most third world countries and by (I'm nearly certain) nearly every person who views this website. If it is a crime in some Middle Eastern countries, then that should be listed, but it should not be labeled as a crime when it isn't in the main countries of viewership. --Limbo 23:16, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Okay. Philip J. Rayment 05:23, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

There is no Scriptural support cited in this article for suicide's being a sin. How would you expect to persuade people of that argument without such support? Dhdidnac 00:55, 21 December 2013 (EST)

Stop removing the material about atheism and suicide from the suicide article. See for example: In More Religious Countries, Lower Suicide Rates, Gallup Organization, 2008 and Religious Affiliation, Atheism and Suicide. Conservative (talk) 11:48, April 3, 2024 (EDT)

Do not spam and threaten. This article is in need of revision and updating. The alleged "source" material is more than 15 years old. RobS^{Zelensky didn't kill himself} 11:54, April 3, 2024 (EDT)