Talk:Romantic Values

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Really? Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion are conservative values. Whowudathunk?RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:13, 17 April 2020 (EDT)

There is no mention of rum or rebellion on the page. The Romantics valued, individualism, patriotism, nationalism, creativity, and innovation. They also rejected statism. These values embraced the American Dream, it's pretty conservative actually. --YankeeDoodleDandy (talk) 13:18, 17 April 2020 (EDT)

This page is pretty far off. Ideas such as progressivism and communism came from Romantic values. [1] Individualism and limited government are ideas that come from classicism. [2] There's a reason why when you look at the buildings built by our Founders, they built buildings that look like the Roman era. [3] Progressingamerica (talk) 20:06, 17 April 2020 (EDT)
Wanted to give some additional information here. Romanticism comes about shortly after the French Revolution[4], influences the Germanic Romantics[5], and that's how you end up with Karl Marx.[6] Hegel was a Romantic.[7] Progressingamerica (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2020 (EDT)
I gitit now. Since Hitler was such a fan of the High Romantic or Late Romantic period (1880-1910, per Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich), therefore "Romantic Values" are "conservative values. The page is looking more and more like parody. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:56, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

No, I do not believe that it is correct. Well I agree that limited government came from Classicism. I never said it didn’t. I said the Romantics valued individualism, they may not have created it but they valued it, just like conservatives do today. [8] If Romantics, valued individualism they most likely opposed communism. The Romantics opposed the Enlightenment, which has influenced Liberalism, whereas modern conservatism is similar to Romanticism. [9] The basis of the Enlightenment Karl Marx the father of communism was part of the Enlightenment period, and was expressing reason the same for Adolf Hitler. [10] Overall even if the Romantics did not create conservatism, they did hold conservative beliefs and values. --YankeeDoodleDandy (talk) 12:34, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

Age of Reason = rationalism
Romantic Era = emotionalism (in response to rationalism)
The beginning of the Romantic era coincides with the beginning of Age of Metternich, which Marxists call reactionary. You're taking what is basically an artistic and literary label and applying some pseudo-philosophical, political, and sociological meaning to it. Basically, calling "Romanticism" "conservative" is Marxist in origin - the defeat of rational thinking by emotion. By that theory, the Democratic party, the Democratic party platform, the rhetoric of Democratic party candidates, and the thinking of the Democratic party voter base is conservative.
I think your whole theory is balderdash. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:45, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

You point how they came up with these beliefs is by emotion, which I acknowledge is true, however, that is just the approach to their values it is not the values themselves. This page is about their values, which support individualism, charity, and other conservative values. Also, it is important to realize reason does not necessarily mean good. [11] Marxism which created by Karl Marx is not necessarily about reason over emotion, as Karl Marx was promoting universal reason. [12] --YankeeDoodleDandy (talk) 13:20, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

So, do persons living during the Art Deco period believe in Art Deco values, which then fall into a greater classification of conservative values, or only the movers and shakers behind the Art Deco movement? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:26, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

If you're asking me as a response, I do not know much about the Art Decon time period or their values. So I sorry I cannot give you an accurate answer. --YankeeDoodleDandy (talk) 13:30, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

The Romantic Era is largely considered to range from, oh let's say circa 1806 (Tilsit, Faust, Eroica, Prussian Reform movement, etc) until 1910, pre-WW I, Art Noveau, modernism or "post-modernism" (who can figure?), jazz, and what the Nazis called "degenerate art". RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:40, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

Okay but what about the values themselves? Which are individualism, patriotism, innovation, inspiration, love for the rural, and rejection of statism. Those are all conservative values. --YankeeDoodleDandy (talk) 13:47, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

Pseudo-philosophy. I live in the age of Rap music and Hip-Hop. Does that mean Rap values and Hip-Hop values are ascribed to all persons living in that time era, or only conservatives? (It should be noted, I am not basing this premise on the Marxist notion that "conservative" and "liberal" are polar opposites, either today or historically. I am using your premise that artistic movements can have some pseudo-political- ideological basis, which may be a valid premise. However, taking a broad artistic movement that swept the entire 19th century, that promoted Marxism in a limited sense, and labeling it as a "conservative value" seems a little over-wrought.
Prima facia, the idea appears to paint Romanticism as a reactionary movement against Rationalism, which buried Socialism for 100 years from the Paris Commune to the Bolshevik Revolution. In doing so, you elevate the values of The Enlightenment, scientific progress, and Marxism by denigrating conservatism.
It's basically a nihilistic argument, and not anywhere near being "enlightened" or "rational". To be polite, I won't even label it as "anti-conservative bigotry" which is par for the course in Stalinist and post-Stalinist times.) RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:04, 18 April 2020 (EDT)
Let's take three broad statements and try to reconcile them:
  • "Romanticism" was coined because it originated in European regions of the "Romance Languages", namely French, Spanish and Italian. - CP article;
  • To become a great power again, it [Prussia] initiated reforms from 1807 onwards, based on Enlightenment ideas and in line with reforms in other European nations. - WP article Prussian Reform Movement;
  • I liked mingling with this circle of non-political young scientists and inventors headed by Wernher von Braun— twenty-seven years old, purposeful, a man realistically at home in the future. It was extraordinary that so young and untried a team should be allowed to pursue a project costing hundreds of millions of marks and whose realization seemed far away. Under the somewhat paternalistic direction of Colonel Walter Dornberger these young men were able to work unhampered by bureaucratic obstacles and pursue ideas which at times sounded thoroughly Utopian. The work, mere glimmerings of which were being sketched out in 1939 also exerted a strange fascination upon me. It was like the planning of a miracle. I was impressed anew by these technicians with their fantastic visions, these mathematical romantics. - Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich.
So, show me where any of these romantic and Romantic era ideas are conservative values. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:48, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

Okay, you made your point, but also consider that not Americans approve of American values, so the same is true for Romantics, whether you believe their values are conservative or not. I acknowledge now that they had some conservative beliefs and some non-conservative ones. --YankeeDoodleDandy (talk) 15:04, 18 April 2020 (EDT)

It's just simply a time-era, like New Deal era or Nazi era; it's not like all people living in the New Deal and Nazi eras (which coincided) held both or either New Deal and/or Nazi values. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:20, 18 April 2020 (EDT)
To top off a final comment, Show me where in Amy Klobuchar's comment, Hey Trump, the science is on my snide.... there is any rational or enlightened thinking other than pure, raw, junior public high school emotion, hatred, and bigotry channeled toward non-Marxist believers? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:35, 18 April 2020 (EDT)
@ YankeeDoodleDandy It looks like there is a meme running through much of your beliefs in that somehow the Enlightenment is anti-conservative. It isn't. Christianity was considered rational and reasonable for a large percentage of the Enlightenment.[13] Many of the great thinkers of the Enlightenment(early, early-mid) are all deeply convicted Christians, or at least firmly believing. Much of what taints "the Enlightenment" is stacked up toward the end, with the French and Germanics in general and Kant/Marx and the French Revolution in particular. The fact that the Daily Kos is saying that conservatism is romantic is even more of a reason to reject the idea outright. The cherry on the top of the cake is that "Liberalism" always meant "small government", until the 1930s when progressives in general and FDR in particular abandoned the word progressivism and took over the word liberalism. Hoover was pissed that Roosevelt did this, but nonetheless, it presents a significant problem for this article. Progressingamerica (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2020 (EDT)

Thank you for telling me, I never meant to say that the Enlightenment is fully anti-conservative. Although I believe parts of it were. [14] I was just saying that some of the romanticism values are conservative; individualism, rural loving, patriotism. Also, I am not the only one to point this out. [15] [16] [17] However I do believe you make some great points as well, and I respect your perspective.

Ok, The Romantic era is commonly divided into three sub-eras, early, middle, and late. Yes, it's true, the early Romantic era coincides with what historians call The Restoration, or the Bourbon Restoration, or the Restoration of the Monarchy. The Restoration then was broken up for a brief time in the Mid-Romantic era by the Revolutions of 1848. The Socialist Revolutions of 1848 then evolved into the imperialist French Second Empire and toward the Late Romantic the German Empire or Second Reich.
What can we conclude from this analysis? -- the rational atheists of Mid Romantic and 1848 Revolutions very quickly evolved into imperialists. Not unlike the godless rational atheists of the Chinese Communist Party.
I think your chasing after wind. This whole page neatly fits into what's commonly referred to as Revisionism or garbage. RobSLive Free or Die 14:40, 25 April 2020 (EDT)
Granted, there is much confusion and misinformation when discussing the 19th century outside of English and French sources, largely due to censorship in the Imperial German and Russian states. I chose 1806 as the starting point cause that's when the Tausend Jahre Reich ended. What is the Tausand Jahre Reich? It is a term translated by Martin Luther in the Luther Bible that in English is translated Millennial Kingdom. In the Romantic era, many referred to the the Holy Roman Empire (800-1806) as the Thousand Year Empire. When the Second German Empire was declared in 1871, the Thousand Year Empire became the First Reich. Why is it now when I google Thousand Year Reich I get Nazi Germany as a result, when the term originates in the the Luther Bible and the Book of Revelation, and was used by Romantic authors to describe the Kingdom founded by Charlemagne in 800 A.D.? RobSLive Free or Die 15:07, 25 April 2020 (EDT)