Talk:II John

Let's do a few calculations...

Regarding the doubt that the Second and Third Epistles of John were written by the same author of the Gospel and the First Epistle (John the Apostle), due to the fact that "eternal life" is not used in the former, it should be noted that those two Epistles are very brief. This website gives a brief overview of the number of words in each book of the Bible, and this article lists the frequency the term "eternal life" is used in each book of the New Testament.

So in the "Eternal life" article, it says that, in terms of the Johannine works, the phrase is used 18 times in the Gospel and 6 times in the First Epistle. Those two books respectively contain 18,658 and 2,517 words. So in the Gospel, that phrase appears about once out of every 1,000 words (18,658/18 = 1036.55...), and in the First Epistle, it appears once out of every 420 words on average (2,517/6 = 419.5).

And how many words are in the Second and Third Epistles of John? 298 and 294 respectively, so roughly. So let's assume that the expected frequency of the word "eternal life" in the Epistles is supposed to maintain consistency. So there's somewhat less than three-quarters of a chance that the word "eternal life" should appear once in each (70–71%, to be more exact).

Or... we could combine the number of words in the Gospel and First Epistle and the number of times the word "eternal life" is used, for precision sake. After all, the editor who posted the doubt about authorship being the same between the First Epistle, and the Second and Third, says that the frequent usage of "eternal life" demonstrates the Gospel and First Epistle were by the same author. So using that as a basis and logical premise... the total number would then be 21,175 (18.658 + 2,517) words total, with the phrase used 24 (18 + 6) times. Dividing the first number by the second one gives about 882.29166..., meaning the word "eternal life" is used an average of once per every ~882 words, with both the Gospel and First Epistle of John factored in. And remember the Second and Third Epistles contain 298 and 294 words respectively, so the probability of the phrase "eternal life" used even once in either of those two Epistles is about 34% and 33% respectively.

In other words, even by tracking the frequency of the term "eternal life," this metric alone does not soundly prove the likelihood that the Second and Third Epistles were written by a separate author from the First Epistle or the Gospel of John, since a consistent probability calculation shows only a one-thirds chance it would've showed up once in each of the Second and Third Epistles, due to their brief length. And the chance it would've showed up at least once in either the Second or Third Epistle would be 44.44...% (aka (1-0.33...)^2). Long story short, the math doesn't arrive at a sound conclusion.

Furthermore, when reading the Epistles of John, it's clear that the First Epistle is different from the other two. The First Epistle addresses a more broad audience with a preaching style, while the Second and Third Epistles seem to be letters towards specific people expressing confidence and eager hope. The historical record states that the five Johannine works were all authored by John the Apostle, which I still don't see sufficient/conclusive reason to doubt. —LT ^{(Mark 8:36)} Sunday, 17:44, January 1, 2023 (EST)

Terrific analysis, but all "five" Johannine works? I think the Book of Revelation plainly had different authorship based on its different style and numerous grammatical errors. The Gospel of John is at a far higher level of perfection.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 01:06, January 2, 2023 (EST)

Exceedingly glad to see your reply, Andy, as I was eagerly hoping that you'd notice my extensive analysis here. Now, to sort of reiterate my reply in this earlier discussion, I think an argument can be made from a sense of sheer beauty that God would trust John the Apostle to write Revelation, since he was the "disciple whom Jesus loved." Given the difference of opinion here, perhaps a debate page can be started on this topic! This is a fascinating topic to analyze, and I hope one day to meet not only God, but also John the Apostle, in Heaven, and learn the full amazing truth; also, if I never get a chance to meet you in-person while in this current temporal world, I hope to meet you there for the first time one day, Andy. —LT ^{(Mark 8:36)} Monday, 01:15, January 2, 2023 (EST)

I appreciate your arguments and statements, LT. I have an open mind about who wrote the Book of Revelation, but notice that the book itself does not say it was written by the "disciple whom Jesus loved."--Andy Schlafly (talk) 01:31, January 2, 2023 (EST)

Here's the debate page I started where we can mostly continue. Now, in response to that point, here's something that came to my head... so in the Johannine Gospel and Epistles, John made his identity clear through subtle unique references due to his experiences around those who directly witnessed and experienced the time of Jesus, without having to directly introduce himself. Under the presumption that he did write Revelation, it could be argued that it was the other way around: his experience and background information alone in the Island of Patmos may not properly indicate his identity indirectly, and may have felt motivated to directly introduce himself. And if he directly introduces himself, that eliminates the need for other giveaway indirect references like "the disciple whom Jesus loved." —LT ^{(Mark 8:36)} Monday, 01:45, January 2, 2023 (EST)