Changes

Template talk:Liberalism

25,644 bytes added, 02:47, October 21, 2020

/* Should we add this to the liberal template? */

:I asked for the templates creation, so I know why I asked for it. But of course I could be wrong. The idea for making and using it, was to put on an article, about people or things, similar traits that all liberals share. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 22:39, 15 November 2008 (EST)

:::In the interest of historical accuracy I should point out that I created the template entirely of my own volition on 26 February during a period (14 January - 23 March when TK was not contributing to Conservapedia). [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 00:58, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Was this on your trip to Mexico, Genghis, or your later motorcycle accident recovery? Inquiring minds want to know! --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 01:25, 17 November 2008 (EST)

::*Let's all avoid discussing other contributors' personal lives. No one need be blocked for this, as it is not vandalism. There has been a lot of gossip on the board of late, and it's not an easy habit to break (for any of us). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 07:27, 17 November 2008 (EST)

::Are you joking about a motorcycle accident which could have taken his life?! [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 01:30, 17 November 2008 (EST)

::::Huh. I hadn't noticed that. That changes things, doesn't it? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 01:08, 17 November 2008 (EST)

::Then fix it like you agreed to offline. Navtemplates are to be used to link together the articles on the template, not to be plastered on any marginally related topic. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:42, 15 November 2008 (EST)

:::Sorry, I reject your opinion as to NavTemplates needing to be used in only one way. Ease of use trumps your idea of how it must be used. When that template is put on an article of a liberal person or institution/organization, it enables our readers to easily find and read information on liberal traits. Why would anyone object to that, unless they are trying to hide liberal traits? --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 22:46, 15 November 2008 (EST)

:::::: Whilst it's true that just because something has been done one way we don't have to stick with that (i.e. how navigation boxes are used), there is also the argument that it saves confusion if we use them consistently, and that includes consistently with other encyclopaedias. So I would suggest that we change how they are typically used only if there is an overriding reason to do so. I haven't seen that reason yet. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 20:45, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::::<s>Then I'll do it myself.</s> Are we to add this template to every single liberal or liberal act described on Conservapedia? That's a big job, not a very easy use. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:48, 15 November 2008 (EST)

*I hardly think anyone needs to be dogmatic about it, or slavish in its application. Isn't common sense enough? In the case of Dawkins, it is entirely reasonable to expect that not everyone will know who he is, or be familiar with what liberal means in America. By adding that template to his article, it will enpower users to click the examples listed on the template, and understand what qualities he exhibits make him a liberal. That make sense? --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 00:43, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::Can't the same be said for [[Barack Obama]] or [[Ted Kennedy]] or [[FDR]] or the [[ACLU]] -- where do we stop? You don't have to be dogmatic about it, but in a community website you need to at least have some consistency. You can't just make up new uses for things -- how is a new editor supposed to know what to do? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 13:26, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::HelpJazz, the only people I see making up uses is you and Brianco. I requested the template to be made. I discussed it before asking for it, with Andy, Ed Poor and a couple of others. As I have repeated several times, my intent was to place it on the article for everyone/thing, that is identified as being a liberal in the article. Period.

:::And I did not intend to link all articles with each other, as you insist a nav template must be used. ''I respectfully submit that there isn't just one way to use such a vehicle.'' The intent was to allow users to easily look up those qualities that caused whatever person/institution to be labeled a liberal in the article. It isn't such a big job as compared to the thousands of articles where a persons liberal nature has been obfuscated. One simply adds it whenever one comes across an article about a liberal. It allows a reader to easily click the links included in the template to read in more depth what makes a liberal a liberal:

'''Bias • Deceit • Denial • Evolutionary Ideology • Friendship • Global warming • Globalism • Gun control • Hate speech • Hollywood values • Homosexual agenda • Hypocrisy • Ideology • Liberals • Logic • Media elite • Myths • Obfuscation • Quotient • Redefinition • School grading • Style • Values

'''

</blockquote>

:::What I cannot fathom is why anyone would go to the lengths you and BrianCo have gone to not use it, complain about it. Oh, wait, neither one of you is a conservative! I forgot. So neither one of you like calling out liberals, or making them, and their qualities transparent and easily identified by others. So be it. If you are not interested in showing liberals for what they are, my suggesting would be to edit Wikipedia. Here, the decision was made long before you, Brianco or me came here, to showcase liberal attributes, [[liberal values]], identify [[liberal]] people and institutions, and clearly show their [[deceit]]. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 15:36, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::: It is not "making up uses" to be using them they way they are typically used.

:::: One reason for ''not'' using it on pages of "liberals" is that "liberal" and "conservative" are not black-and-white categories, but extremes on a linear scale, which linear scale doesn't reflect reality in any case. So you'll get, for example, someone who is anti-evolution but pro-feminism (and yes, I have met such a person). So putting a box on a "liberal"'s page to indicate what they believe can be misleading. If they want to know more about what makes a liberal a liberal, then they click the link to "[[liberal]]" which would no doubt already exist in such articles.

:::: And please stick to the issue, and don't resort to ''ad hominem arguments'' about other editor's beliefs. What they believe has no bearing on the validity of their arguments.

:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 20:45, 16 November 2008 (EST)

At Wikipedia, they pay lip service to the idea of "assuming good faith". But then, once they find out you're on to them, the gloves come off. Well, the gloves are off here too.

Some people tell the truth; others lie. Liberals tend to do this much more than conservatives, although they don't have a monopoly (not any more than Bill Gates has a monopoly on operating systems. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 16:16, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:First of all, TK, you are the one who added "this might be an unorthodox use for a navigation template", so Brianco and I are not the one chenging the rules, you are. (If, as you claim, you invented this template, can you please show me where? Not that that actually makes a difference in how a navtemplate is supposed to be used, but it would be nice to finally see what the original intent of this template was).

:Secondly, stop saying that I'm out to destroy this wiki because I'm a liberal. It's a stupid argument and it makes no sense: "HelpJazz and Brianco want to use a navtemplate in the way that every single other navtemplate is used because they are dirty liberals". You know I'm not a liberal (as you have told me numerous times on IM), and you are only saying it here in order to discredit me. If you continue your disruptive behavior I will block you, just like I would any other editor who does the same.

:<Deep breath>

:Now that that's out of the way, thank you for finally explaining the use of this template. Are you going to take up the project of adding it to every liberal? Of so the [[:category:liberals|liberals category]] is a good place to start. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:32, 16 November 2008 (EST)

'''

::I would not be adding it to yet another template, as this one is informational in nature, and not intended to be linked to all other articles about liberals. '''Nice try, using a Red Herring, Jazz. ''I didn't call you a liberal'', I stated a fact, that you are, self-admittedly so, a libertarian, and not a conservative.''' Do I need to provide links to where you posted that fact? What several of us are wondering is, why you would take this fight to public postings, instead of your usual contact via AIM? To many it appears it is done to better coordinate with others who agree with you. As I said, if you have a problem calling out liberals, Wikipedia is the place for you and anyone else who has trouble doing that. Our job here is to identify [[liberals]], [[liberal deceit]] and [[Liberal myths]] wherever it/they exists. Ours is an educational mission, to educate the public about what makes a liberal a liberal, and clearly show their deceitful methods of obfuscation, deflection and arguing-without-end to ensure liberal deceit is not exposed. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 17:23, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::: This page, not somewhere private such as AIM, is the appropriate place to discuss this matter. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 20:45, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::I didn't say you should add another template, I'm not sure what you are talking about. You said "One simply adds it whenever one comes across an article about a liberal"; I was pointing out that many such articles can be found in the liberals category.

:::"Red hearing", yeah right. First of all, you were the one who started the red herring by bringing up ideologies at all. You are correct, you didn't call me a liberal, you called me a non-conservative. (You didn't call me a libertarian). Either way, your implication that the only reason I want to use the template in the manner discussed back in April is because I am a "non-conservative" and I have trouble identifying liberals or liberal deciet is patently false, and is only being used to derail this conversation. I have already stated, in the above discussion, back in April, that your line of reasoning has no bearing on why I want to use the navtemplate as a navtemplate. If you would please read that discussion and stop using the same faulty line of reasoning it would be greatly appreciated.

:::Lasty, AIM is ''not'' my usual contact, it's yours. Ask any other editor if I ever contact them through AIM. I used to contact you over AIM only because you did it, not because I wanted to. The reason I'm not using AIM now is because I'm tired of you saying one thing in AIM and then doing something else online. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:59, 16 November 2008 (EST)

*Well thanks for coming out of the closet and exposing yourself for the deceitful liar you are. What on AIM, did I say I was going to do, and didn't? When I sign into AIM, and it shows you there, that is a clear indication, since I have been gone from CP for 7 months, that you are indeed on it for reasons other than me. This case and matter is now closed. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 18:09, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::What makes you think that I only use AIM for CP? I have friends, you know, and my friend list doesn't overlap with the people I interact with on CP. So, I'm not a deceitful liar when I say that you are the only editor I talk to about CP, and it's because you want to, not because I want to. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 18:55, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Can we stick to the point? Liberals are related to Liberalism. It helps educate our readers to use templates that are chock full of links.

I don't think we have to put every article, that uses a template, in that template. But if it's a major article, go ahead.

We can also split this template up into [[Template:Liberalism]] and [[Template:Liberalism]] if it gets too big to be useful. We can start with [[Teddy Kennedy]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:10, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::Did you mean to say [[Edward Kennedy]] ? --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 18:14, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::So since Ed has protected it, are you going to be in charge of adding major articles to the template? TK doesn't seem to want to do it, so I'll start adding the template to every page we have about a liberal. I'll need Ed's help, though, because some of them will probably be protected. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 18:55, 16 November 2008 (EST)

*HelpJazz, it is not up to you, nor is it up to you to organize how it will be done. Let me repeat one final time. You were given blocking rights to fight off vandals, not to decide policy. I know that to be a fact, because I was one who pushed for your blocking rights, for months. You inserting yourself into something, and arguing your POV endlessly, without an end, isn't exactly wanted. Not everyone can just drop what they are doing, and jump into doing what you suggested immediately. I think Ed is trying to finish some code. I am trying to finish off two articles and dealing with a horrible backlog of emails, so please forgive us for not getting it done when you demand it to be. I previously posted that one shouldn't be dogmatic, and we can add it catch-as-catch-can, a few at a time, as we see pages it would benefit. Jeeze. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 19:02, 16 November 2008 (EST)

: It's not up to you to organise or decide policy either. Stick to the subject and stop insulting other editors. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 20:45, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Ok, I see a problem off the bat. The template adds the category "liberals" to the page, but clearly the category can be applied to more than just liberal ''people''. I think the category should be removed, and the "liberals" or "liberalism" or "liberal organizations" category can be added to the article, as appropriate.

TK: I'm not arguing POV, I don't know how many different ways I can tell you that you are wrong. Secondly, you keep calling things "dogmatic" when you really mean "consistent". I'm sorry if I want things to be applied equally across equal cases. If we added it on just willie-nillie then clearly pages will be missed. So, I volunteered to do it systematically (not "dogmatically"). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:07, 16 November 2008 (EST)

*Do what you will, HelpJazz. Ed has a bot than can do/undo anything in minutes, not hours. It is a simple matter to change the Cat to Liberal not Liberal'''s''' no? That way it would fit people and institutions, right? --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 19:14, 16 November 2008 (EST)

== Switching auto-tag for category ==

Seems fine to me, but would it not be far less work to simply re-name category Liberal'''s''' to Liberal? As I understand it, Jazz's objection was that Liberal'''s''' didn't fit with some article names, and simply dropping the "S" seems to be easier. I might be wrong. Adding yet another new category name seemed silly. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 20:40, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:The first part is correct (Liberals, with an s, doesn't fit many of the pages this template is to be used on). However I suggested that the category be removed from the template entirely, so that we can add categories on a case to case basis, instead of adding one category across the board. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:42, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:If it makes a difference to the final decision, [[:category:liberal]] does not exsist, so if we chose to add it to the tempate, we would have to port over everything that's currently in a more descriptive category. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:44, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::We are talking past one-another. I was talking about two issues. One, my suggestion was to change the name of the Category, make it non plural, so it would be appropriate for people and organizations. The other was to have the Template add pages it was applied to the non-plural Liberal category. '''I am assuming one can actually change the category name instead of repopulating all the articles.''' --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 20:48, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::You can't change the category name, you have to manually change the category on each article. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:53, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::::Ahh. But I think an admin can do that, through the database. Still.....the rush is? --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 20:56, 16 November 2008 (EST)

:::::I don't think an admin can. There's no rush, except that I'd like to continue what I was doing. The longer it waits the less likely it is to be done well, and the more likely it is to become a mess. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:00, 16 November 2008 (EST) <-- well, we will have to wait an hour, because Dexter is on :)

::::::LOL! You were only doing what you were because you were angry and trying to bludgeon a point. When you decide to communicate, you can be in the loop. Until then, don't get upset when decisions are made, and you are not included. Pretty simple. --[[User:TK|₮K]][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]] 21:07, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::::::::That's helpful. Putting words in my mouth and thoughts into my head. I communicate (see, oh I don't know, all over this talk page as well as my user talk), and yet, now I'm going to be kept out of the loop for not communicating. Then next time, you can chastise me for not following a rule I didn't see because you kept me out of the loop. Clever. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:56, 16 November 2008 (EST)

== Liberal propaganda ==

Could I please petition to [[liberal propaganda]] to the template? I have a feeling that with Obama's ascent, we're going to have to deal with a LOT more of it.-[[User:AlexanderM|AlexanderM]] 23:10, 14 December 2008 (EST)

== [[Network abuse]] ==

[[Network abuse]] is either a tool or trait of liberalism. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] 15:17, 17 February 2010 (EST)

== Liberal whining ==

Someone needs to add newly created article [[liberal whining]] to the template. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] 21:03, 18 February 2010 (EST)

== [[Liberal pressure]] ==

Perhaps [[liberal pressure]] would make a good addition? [[User:NP|NP]]

== Video game industry ==

needs to be added too. Liberals often cite violent/explicit video games as examples of "free speech". Whaddaya think? [[User:DavidBG|[[User:DavidBG]]]] 12:17, 27 April 2010 (EDT)

:I agree. Under which category? Tools?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:39, 27 April 2010 (EDT)

::Seems the best spot. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 12:48, 27 April 2010 (EDT)

:::Agreed. [[User:DavidBG|[[User:DavidBG]]]] 12:50, 27 April 2010 (EDT)

==Scientology==

Scientology is listed on this template, but the template does not appear in that article, and that article does not explain why Scientologist would be liberals as opposed to conservatives. I don't see the connection and would propose to delete the reference. Thanks, [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 06:22, 16 November 2012 (EST)

== animal ==

What is about the [[Animal rights]] movement? --[[User:Alex00|Alex00]] 11:31, 22 January 2013 (EST)

* And the articles [[ObamaCare]] and [[Corruption]] must be contained in the template --[[User:Alex00|Alex00]] 12:55, 2 February 2013 (EST)

== Liberals in Law Enforcement ==

[[Liberals in law enforcement]] should be added to to this template. I tried to add it myself, but it's locked so that only senior admins can edit the template. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] 12:50, 16 February 2014 (EST)

==[[Russian collusion hoax]]==

Russian collusion hoax and/or [[Steele dossier]] should be added. The page is locked. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']] 14:18, 13 April 2018 (EDT)

== Adding "state=expanded" ==

I recommend adding "state=expanded" after <code><nowiki>|title=[[Liberalism| Liberal Characteristics and Traits ]]</nowiki></code>; that will automatically and always expand the template in any article it is transcluded into regardless of whether it is the only Navbox template used or not. --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|Just say no to quid pro joe!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Free Roger Stone!]]''''' 00:55, 7 June 2020 (EDT)

== Should we add this to the liberal template? ==

LT added the liberal template to [[Vandalism on Conservapedia]], it should be added to the template if it's there. [[User:Sievert 81|Sievert 81]] ([[User talk:Sievert 81|talk]]) 22:17, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

:Sounds like a good idea; maybe it could be included in the "Other" section? Unfortunately, editing the template is locked to administrators, so you may have to wait for someone like RobSmith to see this post. I don't know if he saw mine above this. —[[User:Liberaltears|<code>'''LT'''</code>]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]''''' Wednesday, 22:14, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

:Also, out of topic, but when posting on talk pages, it's important to put your signature at the end using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> so everyone can recognize who posts comments/replies. —[[User:Liberaltears|<code>'''LT'''</code>]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]''''' Wednesday, 22:17, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

::Will do in the future, thanks.

:::Alright, awesome! And thank you for maintaining vigilance against some recent vandals, including that "SharpieHelium"! —[[User:Liberaltears|<code>'''LT'''</code>]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]''''' Wednesday, 22:21, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

::::I recognized that as a sock immediately. I was just waiting to revert it. You're welcome! [[User:Sievert 81|Sievert 81]] ([[User talk:Sievert 81|talk]]) 22:23, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

:::::By the name alone when I saw the user creation log, I immediately knew it was sock of Sharpiehydrogen. What's interesting is that the troll would choose to use light gases as part of his username, in which case would mean that he's practically calling himself a lightweight! —[[User:Liberaltears|<code>'''LT'''</code>]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]''''' Wednesday, 22:27, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

::::::He's back under sharpielithium. [[User:Sievert 81|Sievert 81]] ([[User talk:Sievert 81|talk]]) 22:35, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

:::::::While there's a 99% change that it's a sock (I don't have CheckUser to confirm), I'm not going to going to block a new account for the name alone unless it's very inappropriate. If Sharpielithium makes an edit that proves he's basically a sock account, then a block will be issued. Otherwise, doing so will only make CP come off as less friendly to new users in general. —[[User:Liberaltears|<code>'''LT'''</code>]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]''''' Wednesday, 22:39, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

::::::::Fair. I used to RV a lot of vandalism on Wikipedia, so I know my way around RVing vandalism. How much is needed to earn blocking rights, just curious?

:::::::::There's unfortunately no exact answer to that question, only that with plenty and plenty of edits, Andy might notice you and promote you soon. I'm very grateful to have "Block" and "Upload" abilities after having made several thousands edits and RobSmith requested such for me. After you make more and more edits, I may put in a good word and ask if you can be promoted. "Block" abilities are only be given to highly trusted users. —[[User:Liberaltears|<code>'''LT'''</code>]]'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]''''' Wednesday, 22:46, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

::::::::::Fair enough. I will keep making pages and editing. [[User:Sievert 81|Sievert 81]] ([[User talk:Sievert 81|talk]]) 22:47, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

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