Talk:Korean Airlines Flight 007

The article makes no mention of an attempt to contact the airline pilot by radio. --Ed Poor ^Talk 06:33, 5 November 2007 (EST)

It's not done yet, Ed! There's plenty of time to add into this! Karajou 06:57, 5 November 2007 (EST)

Here's some info I don't think even Wikipedia has:

• No flyer doubts that the region is sensitive. North Pacific flying charts are boldly marked AIRCRAFT INFRINGING UPON NON-FREEFLYING TERRITORY MAY BE FIRED ON WITHOUT WARNING. According to General George J. Keegan Jr., the former director of Air Force intelligence, six Soviet colonels and lieutenant-colonels have been executed, over the years, for failing to destroy intruding American planes.
• Moreover, that night Soviet defenses had already counted five flights by US intelligence planes waiting for the launch toward Plesetsk of an experimental Soviet SS-X-24 intercontinental ballistic missile ... None of the five spy-plane flights had infringed Soviet airspace, but they came close. [1]

This might explain why they were so trigger-happy. --Ed Poor ^Talk 10:30, 6 November 2007 (EST)

I just read the same thing a few minutes ago. Could be part of the article. Karajou 10:31, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Added layout

Just a proposed layout for the article. Think it will work? Karajou 10:35, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Good layout, already started using it.

How about also a comparison with other overflight incidents. I understand that it is ROUTINE to force an airliner to land. Even if you can't raised the pilot by radio, the fighter planes can maneuver in an unmistakable way, fire shots into relatively non-crucial parts of the fuselage, etc.

It seems the Soviets were trying to PUNISH. And that's why the incident led to their losing the Cold War. --Ed Poor ^Talk 12:42, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Possible motive

Odd that Congressman Larry P. McDonald, the president of the anti-Communist John Birch Society, would be in first class, on his way to the 30th anniversary of the signing of a mutual defense treaty between South Korea and America. --Ed Poor ^Talk 10:36, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Andropov

That Andropov personally ordered the shoot-down, I do not think anyone Disputes. However Vladimir Solovev and Elena Klepikova in thier book, Behind the High Kremlin Walls, have said something I have never seen repeated and/or refuted anywhere. At the time the official Soviet version was Yuri Andropov was on a kidney dialysis machine as he was not seen in public for months. Vladimir Solovev and Elena Klepikova maintain this was not true, Andropov was recovering from a gunshot wound from an assassination attempt. The widow of a Soviet General who disappeared in the gulag system under Andropov's KGB lived in the same apartment building as Andropov (contrary to popular misconception, Soviet leaders did not live in Kremlin, as there is strong superstitious belief that the Kremlin is haunted) and hid in a stairwell one morning. While Andropov & entourage were exiting to go to the car to go to work in the Kremlin, the woman got close enough to Andropov and shot him. Andropov was recovering for many months in a hospital. The report of KAL intrusion was brought to his hospital bed, and he ordered the shoot down. This version would fit other researchers, such as Seymour Hersh's account. Rob Smith 16:17, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Image

I find it a little remarkable that someone in Anchorage happened to photograph the doomed plane on its last refueling stop. I also thinks it's remarkably bright out for the hours around three in the morning Anchorage time, which is when KAL took off from Anchorage - sunset is around 9PM in Anchorage in early September. Unless it made an eight-hour refueling stop - and hey, I've had flights like that...I'm also not sure that the background matches these pictures of the Anchorage airport:

http://tea.armadaproject.org/Images/hochstrasser/hochstrasser_anchorage_002.jpg http://www.hdrinc.com/Assets/images/clients/markets/transportation/airports/Anchorage-w-Mountains.jpg http://www.ascg.com/_Source/Projects/Ted%20Stevens%20Anchorage%20International%20Airport%20Master%20Plan/Image01.jpg http://www.travelrich.com.tw/members/images/ringaholic/c774ad08-4495-4dee-86bd-4b822aa4e561_std.jpg

Dewey 16:25, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Why would it be remarkable? There were 269 passengers, most of which we can assume had families, most of which may have considered it a big event seeing a family member off. Happens daily. Rob Smith 16:27, 8 November 2007 (EST)

I don't find it remarkable at all. There are plenty of people at airports then and now, and they are interested enough about planes to take pictures, never knowing what could happen later, as this one demonstrates. My own grandmother took a trip to the Soo Locks in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan in April of 1975, and photographed the Edmund Fitzgerald passing through; she didn't know what would happen to that ship a few months later. Karajou 16:32, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Did a lot of people get on the plane at Anchorage to go to Seoul? Do we have any numbers in terms of passengers from NYC and those from Alaska? Dewey 16:30, 8 November 2007 (EST)

I'm not certain how that is relevent to rules of engagement. The 1996 New York Times interview states, "he was ordered to shoot down the plane," even after he reported a visual identification as civilian aircraft. Rob Smith 16:35, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Dewey's question is probably trivial in nature; I did read that a family had left the plane while it was down in Anchorage. All it means to me was that there was people on board, and not statistics. Karajou 16:38, 8 November 2007 (EST)

It's not relevant to the rules of engagement, it's relevant to the question of haow many Alaskans had loved ones who took pictures of their doomed flight in the afternoon as it waited for a three AM takeoff. Dewey 16:46, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Of course those links said nothing...in fact they were empty! Oh well. Karajou 16:44, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Yeah, they were too looooooooooong for the wiki I guess. Anyway, I still doubt the veracity of the claim, but what to do? Dewey 16:46, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Alright, here's one" http://johngushue.typepad.com/blog/2006/09/index.html (Scroll to the bottom)

and the other:

http://www.check-six.com/lib/Famous_Missing/KAL_Flight_007.htm Dewey 16:48, 8 November 2007 (EST)

The source of the picture should not be too hard to trace; as to it being part of some big conspiracy, just why, pray tell, would the conspirators be stupid enough to leave evidence behind by taking a picture, duh? Rob Smith 16:53, 8 November 2007 (EST)

My point is simply that it's odd that nobody else using the image online is making the claim that this is image is KAL007 hourse before being shot down. Especially the second link, which is a website dedicated to the incident in question. Everything tells me that this is a stock shot of a KAL 747 at Seoul or another Korean airport. And there's nothing wrong with using it if that's the case - but where does it say that this is flight 007 from all those years ago? Dewey 16:57, 8 November 2007 (EST)

The registration number on the back end of the plane, and the "I Love NY" logo added to the side. Karajou 17:05, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Good question; can anybody identify the airport from the photgraph? [2] Rob Smith 17:07, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Karajou might have a point with the tail number - I don't know if they get recycled or not, and the number isn't remarkably clear - but I don't see any American airport - even in Alaska - being surrounded by burnt-out abandoned tenement housing. Dewey 17:12, 8 November 2007 (EST)

I checked it out...the pic is of the plane, but the topography does not match Anchorage, despite what was said about that pic. Perhaps it is Korea, or any other place the plane was authorized to fly to. We'll have to change the caption. Karajou 17:34, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Karajou - thanks for hearing me out - I didn't want to tick anyone off, but if this project is going to maintain its credibility, it has to interrogate its claims and sources all the way to the end...Dewey 17:43, 8 November 2007 (EST)

You're welcome. At first, I did think you were wrong; for years the world was told that this was the last pic of KAL 007 in Anchorage. I looked at Wikimaps and Google Earth to see if I could find the mountains and that roundish building in the background, but both do not exist in Anchorage. I'm thinking this may be a scene in Hong Kong. Karajou 07:40, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I checked it out for Hong Kong via Wikimapia, and it matches it better than 90%. Behind the tail of the aircraft is what looks like water, plus the crowded urban setting climbing up the hills in the background. It matches the older Hong Kong International Airport in Kowloon, looking south towards Hong Kong Island's North Point. Still not 100% sure - but it's definately not Anchorage. Karajou 07:57, 9 November 2007 (EST)

• I have been there at least 50 times, and it is Hong Kong in the picture.....old airport. Would not be unusual for equipment to, say, fly as one flight number, then change to another, for ongoing repositioning. Check this picture out of Anchorage and the airport in the far distance. If you click on the pic and enlarge it, you will see the airport and terrain clear, some 15 miles from where the picture was taken. [3] --şyŝoρ-₮K^{/Ṣρёаќǃ} 04:01, 10 November 2007 (EST)

Line in the intro

"...may have been a catalyst leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union itself as a political entity."

I included that line because I believe that this incident was part of a series of events (such as the SDI arms race push, the reopening of communist countries to the West, the opening of the Berlin Wall, Chernobyl, etc) leading to the final collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. I have not explained such reasoning in the article yet. If anyone want to, they may do so, or they can remove the line itself if it's felt to be unjustified. Karajou 15:37, 11 November 2007 (EST)

• Karajou, your instincts are right! It was indeed one of the seminal events in turning the tide of world opinion against them. --şyŝoρ-₮K^{/Ṣρёаќǃ} 17:05, 11 November 2007 (EST)

Still not done

Needs info pertaining to the search for the plane, from both U.S. and Soviet sides, in addition to the overall Soviet deceptions in the search; it needs something about possible survivors and what happened to them. Karajou 17:11, 11 November 2007 (EST)

Some grammar might need correcting: the paragraph "American Response" repeatedly uses the historical present tense, but the rest of the article uses the simple past. I'd correct it if I got the author's go-ahead.

Also, I had never heard of this event (can you believe that?!?!). It was slightly before I was born, but this is a terrifying story, which I am glad to finally have heard. Thanks to the author!-MexMax 17:17, 11 November 2007 (EST)

It's not told much these days, and it needs to be. Go ahead and make the necessary corrections. Karajou 17:20, 11 November 2007 (EST)

There was a 24 hour gap in the timeline from the time the plane was shot down, until the time Korean, Japanese, and US officials made announcements to the press. Relatives waiting at the airport didn't have a clue what happened, and nothing was reported about a lost or crashed plane for a full 24 hours. This is the time the US, Japanese, and Korean officials contacted the Soviet side to get thier version. It was known to the US, Japan, and South Korea, that a the Soviet's shot the plane down, but the Soviets were not forthcoming with information. Ultimately, the US, Japan, and South Korea made a public disclosure to the press which was very embarassing to the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union finally countered the negative publicity with a pilot interview claiming he was a hero, and supposed support from the Soviet people that he was acting to defend thier beloved motherland, etc. Rob Smith 17:29, 11 November 2007 (EST)

The Shootdown from inside KAL 007

I don't know if and how it can be done in the body of the article but here is the combined Digital Flight Data Recorder tape transcript with the Cockpit Voice Recorder tape transcript showing what transpired in the cockpit for the first minute and 44 seconds after missile detonation [4]BertSchlossberg 19:08, 18 December 2007 (EST)Bert SchlossbergBertSchlossberg 19:08, 18 December 2007 (EST)

Senator Helms and KAL 007

Here is some material that I think would do well in this article but I would prefer someone else doing the job - not my forte! I tried to post this on the Jesse Helms article but I'm blocked, I think with all others:

"On December 5, 1991, Senator Helms wrote to Boris Yeltsin concerning U.S. servicemen who were POWs or MIAs. "The status of thousands and thousands of American servicemen who are held by Soviet and other Communist forces, and who were never repatriated after every major war this century, is of grave concern to the American people." Yeltsin would ultimately respond with a statement made on June 15, 1992, while being interviewed aboard his presidential jet on his way to the United States, "Our archives have shown that it is true — some of them were transferred to the territory of the U.S.S.R. and were kept in labor camps... We can only surmise that some of them may still be alive." On December 10, just five days after Senator Helms had written Yeltsin concerning American servicemen, he again wrote to Yeltsin, this time concerning KAL 007. "One of the greatest tragedies of the Cold War was the shoot-down of the Korean Airlines flight KAL-007 by the Armed Forces of what was then the Soviet Union on September 1, 1983. . . The KAL-007 tragedy was one of the most tense incidences of the entire Cold War. However, now that relations between our two nations have improved substantially, I believe that it is time to resolve the mysteries surrounding this event. Clearing the air on this issue could help further to improve relations [5]." Yeltsin would ultimately respond on January 8, 1992 by handing over to the International Civil Aviation Organization what the Russians had for so many years denied possessing: the tapes of the KAL 007's "Black Box" (its Digital Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder).

Concerning Stacy (3years) and Noelle (5 years) Grenfell [6], Senator Jesse Helms, who was on sister flight KAL 015, which was also on the way to Seoul Korea,  would write:

I’ll never forget that night when that plane was just beside ours at Anchorage airport with two little girls and their parents.

I taught them, among other things, to say I love you in deaf language, and the last thing they did when they turned the corner was stick up their little hands and tell me they loved me.

I’ll never forget that, and I know you won’t.BertSchlossberg 13:21, 19 December 2007 (EST)Bert SchlossbergBertSchlossberg 13:21, 19 December 2007 (EST)