Talk:Black hole

Extremely high density

Technically, it's undefined, no? Tsumetai 07:52, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

did you know the 'Black Holes FAQ', which there is a link to, was written in 1995? -stevenM

Existence confirmed?

Perhaps I was hasty. I will reconsider. Any other sources I might find enlightening, perhaps from a YEC perspective? BHarlan 15:16, 7 January 2009 (EST)

Talk:Atheistic Style#Black Holes covers it quite well. I don't know of any evidence from a reliable source that shows the existence of Black holes. This "can't be directly observed" thing reminds me a bit too much of evolution. BHarlan 12:16, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Even wikipedia's article notes that all of the different pieces of evidence of a black hole are problematic and can be explained by other sources. - Rod Weathers 12:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)

This is why the article starts by stating "A black hole is a theoretical mass with an escape velocity greater than the speed of light. They cannot be observed directly, but several have been identified via indirect observation" I also don't see how NASA or UCLA Berkely are unreliable sources for astronomy. As for "can't be directly observed",there are numerous articles on CP related to Intelligent Design that don't rely on direct observations of a designer to discuss the apparent presence of design in nature.

The beauty of science that it's always open to review and reassessment as new discoveries come to light. In time man's understanding of Black Holes may be different from this article, but we owe the readers the best current explanations available. I'm not suggesting censorship - all credible alternate theories should be listed, but stating that there have been no observations of one is false - by definition they are not directly observable, so proving they exist relies on indirect observation and physics. --DinsdaleP 12:38, 9 January 2009 (EST)

There is no place called "UCLA Berkely".

ID is bolstered by the direct observation available from Genesis.

The best explanation is not always the explanation espoused by Californians.

We know how our universe began. If NASA & discovery.com deny it, they lose credibility, and their other statements come under greater scrutiny. If you met someone today who insisted that the sky is red and that Sears closes at 10, you would be wise to check the store hours yourself. BHarlan 13:58, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Okay, my mistake regarding Berkely notwithstanding, my last reversion is based on two simple things. The word "is" should not be replaced by "would be" - it is a characteristic of black holes within the theory that describes them. Second, the use of Big Science as a term on CP was started by an admitted parodist, and equating NASA with it, frankly comes across as parody as well. Instead of diluting references to good science, spend more time supporting alternate explanations constructively. --DinsdaleP 14:07, 9 January 2009 (EST)

"Would be" is appropriate for hypothetical things. We say "Dole would have been a better President than Clinton," not "Dole was a better President than Clinton," even "within a theory that describes" Dole as being elected.

"Big Science" was used in Expelled. You don't think that was parody, do you?

"Berkely" isn't a place, either.

It seems like I'm the only one trying to make constructive edits towards a compromise. I guess this is not surprising, given the content on User:DinsdaleP. BHarlan 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)

BHarlan, I believe that you do not understand a small but important bit of information, most astronomical discoveries are collaborative efforts usually initiated by small independent astronomers. When you say big science you could classify biosciences like that, but astronomy is totally different.--Able806 14:19, 9 January 2009 (EST)

The so-called "evidence" for Black holes does not fit a pattern like the one you describe. BHarlan 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)

(unindent)

I'm not making any other changes to the revision just posted by Aschlafly. To BHarlan, I make no apologies for my User Page content. If the CP leadership wishes to block me over my contributions they have the right to do so at any time, but I feel that my efforts here are constructive even when I disagree with others. Feel free to have the last word on this, I'm moving on to other topics. --DinsdaleP 14:45, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Black holes have been spotted by a number of well-respected astronomical institutes for decades, with those discoveries tested and confirmed repeatedly. Your edits are unsupported by either fact or citation Andy, so under the rules youelf created I have no choice but to revert your edits, whereas the edits saying that black holes have been spotted are fully cited with references from reputable sources including NASA, an organisation fully backed by all US Governments, including conservative governments, since its inception.-Ieuan 15:47, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Your sarcastic edit comments are not welcome here. You might want to check "youelf", else you might end up wrecking youelf.

Also, you always have a choice! Do you deny this choice? That is a typical sentiment of materialists. If you do not believe in your soul, you will receive a nasty surprise pretty soon, and it won't just be the non-existence of black holes!

Also, that is not how "whereas" is used in standard English.

Also, NASA has taken a sad left turn as of late. This is one of the reasons the U.S.A.F. has its own space program. Do you see?

Also, may God bless you. BHarlan 16:10, 9 January 2009 (EST)

My my, I miss a 's' in a typo and you decide to launch an ad hominem attack… Very 'christian' of you, or then again; not.

"Also, that is not how "whereas" is used in standard English". That might not be how you use it with your standard of English, but as anyone who has been taught the correct way to use the English language knows, it's perfectly correct. Oh, and a little, free, friendly lesson regarding the use of written English : You never start consecutive paragraphs with the same word unless it is absolutely necessary, which, in your above post it wasn't. If you are having trouble with your synonyms I heartily recommend using a thesaurus.

The military space research programmes exist solely to explore the possible military applications of space. All civilian space programmes, including government projects run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.). This is common knowledge amongst those who know anything about this subject.

Stating that black holes don't exist is akin to believing the moon landing was faked. The existence of black holes and the fact that they have been spotted is undisputed by anyone who has the knowledge and experience to know what they are looking at. I have had the privilege of seeing two of these black holes myself. They are out there and have been spotted, and that is a direct, firsthand witness statement.

May you be touched by his noodly appendage, or if that isn't your cup of tea, may you be blessed by the goat Heidrún. RAmen.-Ieuan 17:06, 10 January 2009 (EST)

• It's "an 's'", not "a 's'".
• If you missed just one 's', then that part of the sentence would read "under the rules youself created", which is still wrong.
• If you missed an 'r' and an 's', then that part of the sentence would read "under the rules yourself created", which is still wrong.
• An ad hominem attack means to reply to the logic in your arguments by attacking your character. I did no such thing. I didn't attack your character in any way. I asked if you were a materialist, then pointed out that materialists are Hell-bound. If you have a problem with your final resting place, I suggest you reconsider your path in life. I do not suggest that the Hell-bound are never able to make logical arguments.
• "Christian" is capitalized. Did you leave it uncapitalized on purpose? If so, I suggest you blaspheme somewhere else.
• That is not how semicolons are used in standard English.
• You need a comma after "but" for the aside.
• You do not need commas around "friendly", just like you don't need commas around "red" in "big red inflatable ball"
• I will not discuss the friendly lesson here, except to note that stylistic choices are different than maintaining correctness. Comma placement and word choice are different beasts.
• The sentence starting "All civilian" has no main verb, so I can't respond to it.
• Hyperbole about the moon landing is simply rhetoric. If there is no argument, there can be no response.
• Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here.
• Black holes can't be seen. What I suppose you mean is that you infer their existence. Your inference is not particularly convincing.
• Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God.
• I am done with this pointless, blasphemous discussion. It is not encyclopedic. I suggest you contribute to this encyclopedia. It is a good way to improve your writing skills. I have been contributing partially for that reason. Maybe you could join me in adding articles and value, rather than taking the name of my Lord in vain?
• If you decide not to, you may have the last word here, as I will no longer reply to this silliness. I hope you will decide to contribute instead. BHarlan 18:33, 10 January 2009 (EST)

*Sigh* "a wit, an arrow, across the head it passed, an apple not pierced today", an 'r' and an 's', my apologies, how can such typos be left to pass, expecially when they are nothing to do with the argument at hand, well done for picking up such niggling detail, and yet avoiding the point of the argument. Admittedly I missed the n in an, but again, a typo, they happen. "Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here", how does evidence from NASA count as anonymous evidence?…at all?…in any way?…whatsoever? As for an ad hominen attack, your argument provided no evidence against the existence of black holes, merely an attack on myself, the purest definition of ad hominen (a course in Latin will help you there). Christian or christian, depends on how you want to write it and on your own beliefs. Me, not my belief, and as I don't believe I cannot blaspheme, after all, how can you blaspheme against something that does not exist to be blasphemed? Use of semicolons in standard English? Again, I refer you to the fact the your standard of English might not be sufficient to use them in such regard. I recommend increasing your quality of English by beginning with Chaucer and reading your way up. At some point you will realise that the use of English in any form is an art, not a science, and that language is to be used in such a way as to provoke delight, wonder and thought with its writing, and beyond the obvious rules of form, there are no hard and fast rules, merely that of metre, pace and illumination. "The sentence starting "All civilian" has no main verb, so I can't respond to it", run, it's a verb, hard to miss, I'll admit to missing a comma (the sentence should read "All civilian space programmes, including government projects, run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)", but missing the word run *shakes head in disbelief*: if you insist on a purer form for that sentence, how about "All civilian space programmes, including government projects, are run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)", but all things being equal, both sentences say the same thing. Moon landing = the sum of evidence gathered concerning the existence of black holes, and that they have been spotted, is greater than the evidence that the moon landing occurred in 1969, hence the corollary. "Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God", I found it offensive that you forced your beliefs on me, now you have found it offensive when I have forced my beliefs on you, with luck you will have learnt a lesson there, don't force your beliefs and prayers on me and I will return the favour by not blessing you with a little sarcastic FSM (oh, and a little FYI, the word graven means carved and I'm sure that the old FSM hasn't been carved yet and, in addition, I doubt that there are any extant carvings of Thor's goats, although I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong in that regard.)--Ieuan 22:13, 13 January 2009 (EST)

I have researched an extensive amount about black holes, and am about to add more information to the article that I hope will prove to be interesting and useful (I will, of course, cite my sources). I am also adding a couple of updates, as some of the information in the article is dated. As a topic about which scientists are still learning, that happens a lot. I hope the updates will improve the quality of the article and its use for educational purposes. BlueMoon 15:26, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

Impossible?

"A black hole is a theoretical prediction of the theory of relativity. It is impossible to prove that a black hole does not exist, and thus it fails the falsifiability requirement of science."

Actually in science we cannot prove with 100% certainty that anything does not exist, you cannot prove a negative. This opening sentence needs to be rewritten first for that reason, also for the fact that black holes have been indirectly observed via Accretion disks, gas jets, gravity lensing, radiation emissions, and other orbits of other stellar bodies. Also there is no other valid explanation in science for the aforementioned effects of a black hole that we observe. --BMcP 17:00, 1 July 2009 (EST)

No, that's the point- to be scientific, something has to be able to be proven wrong. That is a major part of the scientific method. For example, God is not a scientific concept, because you cannot disprove God. But to be science, one of the criterion is that the idea be able to be disproven.

Falsifiability is not the only criterion for whether something is scientific, so perhaps black holes are not unscientific. But that opening is pretty much accurate. AddisonDM 17:50, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Black holes are falsifiable as a theory, because the observations generally accepted as caused by black holes could be causes something else, however there is no alternative theory at present to explain the phenomenon. However you cannot prove that a black hole could never exist just as you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist. God is not a scientific theory not because it is impossible to absolutely disprove God (impossible to prove that God could never possibly exist) but because the supernatural cannot be shown to exist through science, which deals only with the natural universe, if you could present a theory God existed in science, that god would no longer be supernatural by definition.

Honestly I don't understand the objection to black holes, there is no conservative reason for it. --BMcP 19:04, 1 July 2009 (EST)

The existence of black holes is not falsifiable. Surely you agree with that. Black holes cannot be observed either. Addison explained the flaw well above, but you seem intent on sticking with your beliefs. Believe what you like, but black holes do not satisfy any sensible definition of science.--Andy Schlafly 20:37, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

The possible existence of anything is not falsifiable, black holes, quarks, gods, even godzilla, only theories are falsifiable, such as the theory that explain what black holes are and how they work. The present theories of black holes are falsifiable, but so far no one has successfully debunked them, or offer an alternate scientific theory for the phenomenon attributed to the effects and properties of black holes. We cannot observe an isolated quark directly, but we accept that theory.

However I cannot change one's mind, that is fine, I made my objections known, I am not going to step on people's toes by attempting to change the page, I just believe it is scientifically incorrect in it's proclamation and could stand to be improved for a better article. I have said what I believe needed to be said and will end my part here, anyone feel free to respond with the last word or contact me privately. --BMcP 21:07, 1 July 2009 (EST)

Thank you for your interest. Note that atoms have actually been observed (in refutation of what you said above, "you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist". I don't think the article will be changed though. Black holes are sort of on the fence between observable, testable physics, and "theoretical" physics, e.g. string theory. There are a million sources where you can get the standard overview of black holes. Why not have a different view here? Wikipedia does not even mention the issue of falsifiability, so we are doing a service to the scientific method by at least bringing it up- even if you think the article's conclusion is wrong. AddisonDM 21:23, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

In addition to Addison's comments, note that some theories are falsifiable (such as Newton's theory of gravity), while other theories are not falsifiable, such as the theory that black holes must exist or string theory. And when a theory is not falsifiable, it is not science. If BMcP proposes an alternative definition of science, then let's hear it, but I doubt he'll do better than Karl Popper in making falsifiability part of the definition.--Andy Schlafly 21:45, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Guys, this is becoming quite the argument; however, it is unnecessary because the idea that black holes exist is falsifiable. If NASA sends probes out to nearby black holes (which would take a long time, but it's possible), and they all turn out to be ancient Spartans in spaceships or whatever, then scientists will conclude that black holes don't exist and start working on how Spartans came to be in space and why they have accretion disks, etc. So black holes are falsifiable, and this argument is a source of unnecessary tension. BlueMoon 12:55, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

I don't get this non-falsifiable argument. If we see light from a star, then it is not a black hole. Any claim that it is a black hole is then falsified. Black hole theory says that a star becomes a black hole whenever its mass goes inside its Schwarzschild radius, it becomes a black hole. So if we ever find a star that emits light and has its mass inside its Schwarzschild radius, then the theory is falsified. RSchlafly 10:32, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

The problem with that argument is that we live light years away, so what we could be seeing at one moment could be just the beginning before the light is swallowed into the black hole. --ChrisZ 11:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)