Talk:Bible Retranslation Project

Word

I admit that I am not as great a linguist, translator and biblical scholar as Andy is, so pardon my question, but when did "word" not mean "a short expression of a single concept, which can include a vulgarity or a falsehood"? From what I see, the issue at hand seems to be rather how you actually translate "Logos" (a.k.a. "the Word", as opposed to "a word"). If you just want to directly translate it to "Truth", that would sound plausible to me, but redefining "word" to really mean "Truth" is somewhat pushing it in my eyes.

But like I said in the beginning, this isn't exactly my special field of study, so I'm open for any source Andy or somebody else can show me to understand things better. --AlanS 15:04, 25 December 2008 (EST)

AlanS, the more you rely on silly sarcasm, the less likely you will be insightful. In response to your comment, the primary meaning of "word" in English at the time of its incorporation in translating John 1:1 was a "command" or series of speech sounds, not false or vulgar. Today its primary meaning in English is quite different from about 400 years ago, as in "he had a word with so-and-so" or "password".--aschlafly 17:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Aschlafly, the less you rely on belittling and dismissing other people and posts ("the more you rely on silly sarcasm, the less likely you will be insightful", "I'm not interested in wasting my time with someone suffering from evolution syndrome"), the more respect people will give you. I assume/hope you don't treat your students like this, so why your fellow editors? I came to this talk page to learn, not to get the wagging finger treatment from you. And I assumed that you, somebody who is going to retranslate the Word Of God, have some experience as a linguist, translator and biblical scholar - no sarcasm intended. Because otherwise, I'd seriously ask what you were thinking when you started this. No offense, but this is a task more talented people than you and I have to study years for, so the thought of somebody with no experience or training in this field translating the Bible makes me frown to say the least.

More on-topic, I find your explanation interesting, but I would welcome a source for your claim because I couldn't find any. I'm not here to doubt the you, but I want to verify it. Also, what is your explanation for the newer translations not having updated that word? --AlanS 08:27, 26 December 2008 (EST)

AlanS, don't rant on these pages. Contribute, or please leave.--aschlafly 08:39, 26 December 2008 (EST)

"Word" sounds better in my opinion. Also, which editions are you using as a source for your translating, the original Hebrew and Greek, or one of the many English versions? And how far do you plan on taking this? I personally find it superfluous, but since linguistically I am a prescriptionist, that may just be me.ENorman 22:49, 25 December 2008 (EST)

I don't think "Word" means the same to people anymore as it did a generation ago. As to your second sentence, all early manuscripts were in Greek, and the term used was "logos" as stated.

I think the table is merely scratching the surface. The English language is devolving quickly, and retranslation of many key terms is worth considering. This exercise itself is illuminating. I'm confident we've all learned something new just from reading the first three examples.--aschlafly 22:53, 25 December 2008 (EST)

But evolution isn't real, right? :)

Joking aside, I'll help you with my basic knowledge of linguistics if you honestly want it. Just want to avoid this degenerating into an exercise in Newspeak or playing with deeper meanings. ENorman 22:58, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Wow, that's bizarre: where did your comment on evolution come from? No, I'm not interested in wasting my time with someone suffering from evolution syndrome. If you have an open mind, then I do welcome your efforts; if not, then maybe Wikipedia is a better place for you.--aschlafly 23:05, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Logos

ASchlafly: The word "Logos" does not translate to truth. It is generally translated to "word, thought, principle, or speech." Good luck on rewriting the Bible! MReynolds 22:20, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Alternative Procedure

This project is quite ambitious, and generally, I'd say it is out of the reach of the high-school pupils you're addressing. Wouldn't it be more effective to write a commentary to the gold standard of Biblical translations, i.e., KJB, to explain its verses to the contemporary audience? The language of the KJB is so vigorous that any alteration just weakens it. Of course, I'm coming from a German perspective: It took a genius like Martin Luther to come up with a usable German translation for the Bible. He introduced numerous metaphors and proverbs into the German language which still live on. Granted, there are more modern translation - esp. the Einheitsübersetzung of the EKD (Protestant churches in Germany) and the German Conference of Catholic Bishops. But though it's more exact historically, it lacks the power of Luther's language. Another thought: The Bible in its old translations has inspired or at least influenced countless works of literature. This influence is more easily spotted using the traditional translations. BRichtigen 08:59, 26 December 2008 (EST)

BRichtigen, with all due respect, the greatest works throughout history have been produced by teenagers like my students. Moreover, many of my students likely have a better command of history and linguistics than you do. Try your hand at American_History_Midterm_Exam_-_Boys and see how you stack up.

Your put-down aside, your approach does not address the problem of how culture changes the meaning of modern terms used by all translations of the Bible. An accurate translation using terms "x, y, and z" becomes inaccurate when culture modifies the meaning of "x, y, and z" to listeners.--aschlafly 09:27, 26 December 2008 (EST)

"the greatest works throughout history have been produced by teenagers like my students" A closer examination of the greatest work of history (perhaps we could agree on a list of the TOP 100) will show that the statement is just wrong. In fact, the few cases of teenagers who excelled in their fields are so well known as they were rare. (There is only one Mozart...)

I'm sure that your students have a better command of American history than I do. And they should speak better English than I do. I don't know about their German, Latin, Dutch or French...

An accurate translation using terms "x, y, and z" becomes inaccurate when culture modifies the meaning of "x, y, and z" to listeners. A reasonable thing would be to explain the meaning of x, y, and z to the listeners as used in the translations.

The Greek originals were in use for a couple of centuries while Ancient Greek was still a living language. Somehow, no one so the necessity to rewrite the originals...

BRichtigen 09:41, 26 December 2008 (EST)

BRichtigen, you're welcome to start a list of the greatest works in history, but I'm confident most will be accomplished by people who were teenagers. Your point about x, y, z, is not clear; the retranslation is precisely designed to explain x, y, z in a more accurate way as culture changes language. Ancient Greek, which I have studied (have you?) was not as vulnerable to cultural changes to language as today's society is.--aschlafly 10:30, 26 December 2008 (EST)

I looked into the claim most of the greatest works in history were accomplished by people who were teenagers, and the more I research, the more absurd it becomes.

Take for instance mathematics, one of the fields were prodigies are said to be found quite often. Granted, there are accomplishments by young men (Abel, Galois), and Gauss constructed the regular heptadekagon age 18. But these examples are few, and most times, the works of the teenage mathematician will be overshadowed by the works of the matured one - if he is allowed to life long enough.

Another area: Music. Mozart is the child prodigy par excellence, and others tried to imitate his success (Beethoven's father lied about the age of his son...). But there are only few works of teenagers worth listening to...

Which accomplishments in history are you thinking about?

And my Greek is negligible, I'm afraid... --BRichtigen 11:07, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Addendum: Your class voted on the most influential person in American history. None of the top four made his most important attributions to American history as a teenager... BRichtigen 11:39, 26 December 2008 (EST)

This paper examines the age at which Nobel-winning economists published their important works, and also the ages at which they began their Nobel-related research. Table 1 lists the age at which they began their Nobel work; the youngest was 21, and the average was 29.3. They also briefly examine other fields: the mean "beginning age" for Nobel-winning physicists was 33.6, for chemists it was 31.6, and for physiology/medicine it was 33.2. Note that these are the ages when they began the work, not when the Nobel prize was awarded, as it often takes a number of years for the true importance of significant work to be recognised. BrianW 11:57, 26 December 2008 (EST)