Talk:Luke 1-8 (Translated)

Luke 2:1 -- απογραφεσθαι

απογραφεσθαι can mean either a tax or a census. From the writings of Josephus, it appears that this απογραφεσθαι caused an uprising in Judea, which implies taxation (why would a census cause protests?), so I have translated here as taxation.

But so many sources translate this word as a census, so does anybody know of a reason for this? If so, let me know here and we can discuss and possibly change it. JacobB 18:54, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

Luke 3:1

In this particular instances, as weird as the word is to us today, each of the men identified including Herod Antipas is τετρααρχοῦντος - tetrarch. A tetrarch was one who ruled over 1/4 of the empire and was subordinate only to the emperor. King gets used frequently incorrectly used to refer to Herod Antipas in translating this term, but he was not a king and Judea was not a kingdom. I am using the word governor instead of king, which isn't controversial when used for Pilate, who had exactly the same role as Herod Antipas - he was tetrarch of Judea. But perhaps there is a better word than both governor or king. Cambrian 22:25, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Chapter 3 Verse 12

Master is the original, Teacher is the modern version. Jesus asked his disciples "Who do they say I am?" I am thinking the replacement should be "Rabbi" (a respected authority) or "Great Prophet" (some say Elijah, some say John the Baptist). --Jpatt 12:38, 30 October 2009 (EDT)

The Greek is 'didaskale' (teacher, instructor). KJV uses 'master' (a very common term for a teacher pre 20th century). I like the old-fashioned 'master', but I think 'teacher' is better understood these days. I think 'Rabbi' is diverging a little from the original word, and 'Great Prophet' is simply not what the original text says *and* breaks the relationship described between Jesus as teacher and his disciples/students. AdeleM 17:37, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Teacher has different connotations today, as in tenured (and very liberal) public school officials or professors. It may work in some contexts, but I doubt all. Perhaps additional words should be considered: "Sir", "Boss", "Mister", "Coach", others?--Andy Schlafly 18:34, 6 November 2009 (EST)

"Mentor" is the most accurate that comes off the top of my head. Perhaps even "guide" or something along those lines? -- Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 18:39, 6 November 2009 (EST)

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not too comfortable with with using words that are further from the original Greek-- teacher may not be perfect, and it may come with some baggage, but it's still the best fit for 'didaskale'. AdeleM 22:25, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Mentor is a very good idea. But it's not used much as a salutation or title, is it?--Andy Schlafly 18:57, 6 November 2009 (EST)

I don't think it's used much as a title, but I think in the context it would work. Some examples:

"Tax collectors asked to be baptized, saying, 'Mentor, what should we do?'"

"And His students awoke Jesus, saying, 'Mentor, we will drown.'"

"...and Peter said 'Mentor, the crowd is thick, and presses against you...'"

19:09, 6 November 2009 (EST)

I think you're right that "Mentor" does work in many contexts. Great idea!

One basic translational point is that I don't think the same word should be translated the same way in all uses. I think most would agree, yet it is easy to find superficial criticisms of translating the same Greek word differently in different places. It is a weakness of the word-for-word translations of the NASB and ESV to try to avoid that (baseless) criticism.--Andy Schlafly 19:17, 6 November 2009 (EST)

(unindent)I think that along with word translation comes translation of the context that word was used in. "Mentor" may be a good translation in some areas, but perhaps in others a more formal, subservient "Sir" or "Master" would be in order. I'm not very well-versed in Biblical translation, but I would be more than happy to assist in minute details like this! -- Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 19:24, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Gender-Neutral Language

While I'm all for retaining gender-specific language where it exists in the original text, I feel that there are some assumptions being made here that don't really reflect that. In 3:4, for example, the Greek Bible makes it a 'voice in the wilderness', *not* specifically a man's voice. AdeleM 23:06, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Good point. Where are you on the expression "sons of God"? All modern versions change that to "children of God," presumably to gender-neutralize it (degender -- a new Conservapedia word?). But "children of God" has a very, very different meaning from the Greek and from "sons of God." "Children of God" means less accountability, less responsibility, and lower expectations than what the Greek indicates.--Andy Schlafly 13:58, 7 November 2009 (EST)

I don't have a overarching opinion on that, because there's more than one context. For exampke, KJV uses 'sons of God' in clear references to male persons only (ie Genesis 6:2) and to translate the Greek τέκνα θεοῦ (of 1 John 3:1 and elsewhere), which absolutely, 100% really does mean 'children of God'. So, sometimes gender-neutral terms *are* correct, and I think we need to refer to the original text in *every* case. AdeleM 14:36, 7 November 2009 (EST)

That's fine, but I can't imagine any of the texts to mean "children of God." Rather, that appears to be obvious gender-neutralizing.--Andy Schlafly 14:56, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Honestly, with my general liking for the language of the KJV, that's what I assumed. Then I looked it up, and looked it up somewhere else, and did some additional reading, and looked it up again... etc. τέκνα θεοῦ means "children of God"; the original uses the more inclusive term and the King James Version masculinises it unnecessarily. Nothing for it but to open our minds a little further. AdeleM 15:54, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Chapter 3, Verses 18-20

18. In Greek, the words are εὐηγγελίζετο (could be translated 'preached Good News' or 'evangelized' or just 'preached' and παρακαλῶν parakalōn (exhortations or encouragements). The word 'warning' is just not there.

19. It's a little more complicted than that. Herodias was divorced by Philip and then married Herod Antipas. John's objection was to the fact Herod had married a woman who was the ex-wife of his still-living brother, a condition not permitted in Jewish law. So, the reprove was for an unlawful marriage, and, by extension open fornication, but not adultery.

20. No. The word censor is not in the original, and by throwing John into prison, he did a lot more than that.AdeleM 14:38, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Excellent points, but the primary meaning of "exhortation" and "Parakaleo" is to admonish, not comfort.

In verse 19, a better word than adultery to describe the objection would be fine, if one exists in English, but just omitting it altogether seems to leave the reader wondering what the fuss is about.

In verse 20, the Greek word is "katakleiðw", which literally means to "shut up," presumably both physically and in connection with communicating, the point of the verse.--Andy Schlafly 14:56, 7 November 2009 (EST)

On 'exhortation'-- I have no problem with 'admonish'-- just with 'warning', which means something a *slightly* different.

On verse 19-- please see my edit-- I agree it's not quite obvious to the modern audience, but 'adultery' isn't quite what's wrong and probably muddies the waters a bit. I've tried to clarify.

On verse 20: Nope-- "shut up" means two things in modern English, but the Greek κατακλείω only has the sense of 'incarcerate'. (Honestly, I don't think *any* reader could miss the fact that John criticises Herod and is silenced-- no need to belabour the point.) AdeleM 15:30, 7 November 2009 (EST)

You have good ideas and I've learned from this discussion. I wonder why the Greek word κατακλείω could not mean "censor", especially since that is what was happening here. I'll investigate further.

More generally, I think some of your efforts on verses 18-20 overly emphasize word-for-word translation at the expense of clarity of meaning. If, for example,, "adultery" is the best word we have for verse 19, then isn't it better to use it than to obscure the point? If Herod had an unlawful divorce from another woman, would translators be as reluctant to use the word "bigamy"?--Andy Schlafly 16:28, 7 November 2009 (EST)

That's not quite it either. Herodias was lawfully divorced from Philip and free to marry, so her second marriage was neither bigamous nor adulterous. The issue was that it was forbidden to marry the brother of a former husband who was still living-- the prohibition is similar to the prohibition of incest. I'm not sure how to express this in the verse other than "unlawful" or perhaps "illicit".

I'm not actually an absolute word-for-word enthusiast, but when it's straiightforward, I think we should keep it as straightforward as possible and save the interpolation for difficult passages. AdeleM 18:04, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Ah, just read your edit-- immoral also works, although illicit might be slightly better. AdeleM 18:05, 7 November 2009 (EST)

You use the word "unlawful", but Herod essentially made the civil law, and John the Baptist wouldn't have cared about civil law. Do you mean unlawful under Jewish law? In that case I don't think "lawful" would be the term. Regardless, I guess if Herod married Herodias, then "adultery" wouldn't be appropriate as the translation.

I'm all for being straightforward and concise, but I don't think we should obscure meaning simply because the English terminology is inadequate. Sometimes we have to choose the closest English term based on modern connotations, and adultery does seem to capture the basic objection here most concisely. I'm fine with "immoral" or "illicit" but am not confident the reader will really get the point as well.--Andy Schlafly 18:34, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Yes, of course I meant under Jewish religious law-- sorry I didn't make that a bit clearer. I think, then that we agree that we just don't have a good term for this. I think immoral or illicit will do though, since the larger point is actually that John was silenced for his criticism. I think "shut John up in prison" conveys the point nicely. AdeleM 18:46, 7 November 2009 (EST)