Talk:Libertarian censorship

Homosexual beliefs?

Which homosexual beliefs would these be, then? Do homosexuals have some special scientific theories the general public is unaware of? --Gulik5 22:50, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Sure, like the "gay gene" or the denial of shorter lifespans for homosexuals.--Aschlafly 23:03, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Really?

I hang around many libertarian circles, and in every one of them they would get offended at the thought of one of their members censoring others. Are there any examples of actual libertarians censoring? HelpJazz 15:44, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

I think this should probably be deleted. HelpJazz 13:47, 15 November 2008 (EST)

That's what I was thinking. The only thing I could find to be true in the article is that libertarians are known for favoring free speech. Which is kind of opposite to the point of the article. FernoKlump^{Look at this petition!} 13:50, 15 November 2008 (EST)

As a paleolibertarian who spends a great deal of time discussing conservative values within the libertarian framework with "liberal" libertarians, I know that while we argue a great deal about most of these issues, almost all of the true libertarians reject censorship in any form. The one possible exception is prayer in public school, and I think that should be left in the article. I am an advocate for private prayer time in public school (as long as the school doesn't force children to), but I know others who feel differently. We all agree that there should be no public school, and that private schools should be allowed to have any type of prayer or not as the school decides. But that really is an area of disagreement. Otherwise, libertarians may at times ridicule conservative values, but respect our right to express them. Sulli 10:08, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Thanks for confirming the point about libertarian censorship of classroom prayer. The other points can hardly be disputed either. Simply visit libertarian websites (such as CATO, FEE, Von Mises, Ayn Rand, etc.) and you'll likely see the support (or evidence of the censorship) yourself.

Well, I guess I should clarify what I mean. Many "liberal" libertarians will support private censorship (although some protest any form of censorship whatsoever, no matter how silly). They think that suppressing conservative values will help their cause. But most will draw the line at government censorship. Some misguidedly argue for public schools to censor conservative ideals, but they would also argue for private schools to be allowed to teach conservative values if they choose to, and for homeschooling as well. The public school curriculum is a difficult area for libertarians, since we oppose its existence altogether.

On the other hand, if you are just saying that they support the liberal agenda in these areas, I would be hard-pressed to disagree. There are many liberal-leaning libertarians. Perhaps we could clarify the article to discuss private censorship and public school censorship instead of general censorship (which to many, implies government control). Sulli 10:58, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Libertarians support censorship of certain ideas in public school. The entry lists examples. It's irrelevant whether libertarians think public schools should exist or not. Privately, libertarians will demand the same type of censorship for any group in which they are members.--Aschlafly 11:05, 17 November 2008 (EST)

You are certainly right. Some, or most, do. I just think the article should reflect that they support censorship in public schools and internal censorship of private groups, but not, for example, the censorship of private groups by the government. If I were to buy a television advertisement or billboard arguing against evolution in favor of intelligent design, they would mock me, almost certainly, but would not try to have the government (such as the FCC) block my advertisement from showing. They might only work by asking the television company to remove it. I just want to specify the type of censorship, because it is weaker than the type of censorship most liberals would use to enforce their agenda. It is real, and bad, but of a different type. Sulli 11:14, 17 November 2008 (EST)

No, I don't see any meaningful distinction between libertarians and liberals with respect to censorship of the items listed in the entry.--Aschlafly 11:19, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Okay, then I will drop it. You might have to be a libertarian (and be used to our constant disagreement about what some think are minor issues) to see a difference. For us, there is one, but I know most people might disagree. Sulli 11:26, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Cite tags

First, I will make an admission - in this case I misread the title and thought it said "liberal censorship". An honest mistake after having reverted ideological fact tags on "liberal logic" and the words are similar. Now, in deference to that mistake, I've read the above talk to see if I may have reverted good edits by accident. But the above talk seems to miss the point of the article, which is that despite the open proclamations of libertarians to not censor free speech, they still manage to censor it in regard to certain topics. Andy didn't create this article on a hunch, and it's awfully presumptuous to want to *delete* the article just based on the personal experiences you've had with several libertarians. Don't you think you're being hasty? -Foxtrot 06:23, 16 November 2008 (EST)

I don't think anyone was hasty here. The fact that nobody can find any instances of this happening gives strong evidence that it just doesn't happen. Sure, it's an interesting theoretical concept -- what would happen if libertarians censored -- but should we have encyclopedia articles about things that aren't true? I'm fine with keeping the article if we can actually find some examples of this happening. HelpJazz 13:08, 16 November 2008 (EST)

• Seems like some would be much happier at Wikipedia, or the hundred others that enjoy political correctness, make it their watchword. An article put up by the Owner should be a good indicator of its veracity, especially coming from one with such high public/academic standing as Andy Schafly. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Shame on all of you. --₮K^/Talk 23:10, 16 November 2008 (EST)

What does this have to do with political correctness? And just because Andy says something is true makes it so? FernoKlump^{Look at this petition!} 23:17, 16 November 2008 (EST)

I should really just put the following into AutoText: "It is not censorship for someone to say 'that's wrong and you shouldn't say it.' It's only censorship if somebody has the ability to keep you from presenting your speech in whatever forum. When people didn't buy Dixie Chicks albums and tickets, they weren't censoring the Dixie Chicks, they were using their own speech just as freely."

What libertarian, in what position of power/authority to deny anybody their rights, has used that power/authority to censor any of the concepts listed in the article? And yes, 90/10 and all that, but it's not like I'm talking just to read my own voice; this is for the good of the project just as much as correcting the spelling mistakes in whatever article I randomly choose. Aziraphale 23:28, 16 November 2008 (EST) <-not that this is likely to stop anybody...

[1] is worth a look. It says libertarians and conservatives share similar values on school prayer Markr 23:45, 16 November 2008 (EST)

• And on drug laws, prostitution, sodomy and a whole host of other issues, they do not. --₮K^/Talk 23:49, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Would both you gentlemen help me prepare a chart or table showing where conservatives, liberals and libertarians agree and disagree on the major U.S. issues? --Ed Poor ^Talk 08:01, 17 November 2008 (EST)

On school prayer - libertarians oppose censorship - believe government should NOT have any say in content or curriculum, parents decision - conservative viewpoint - By Steve Kubby - libertarian candidate for Governer of california - | Here ""No real Libertarian could endorse school prayer: forcing a Christian prayer down the throat of every schoolchild legally required to appear in school." | here is slightly different , This does not endorse censorship, but will not support forced prayer, which is in keeping with concept of Personal choice. Markr 11:37, 17 November 2008 (EST)

No, that's misleading. Read your cite carefully: libertarians do not oppose censorship of school prayer. Hoping to pick up conservative support, libertarians seek the implausible end to public schools, which is very different. Libertarians are the most strident supporters of the phony separation of church and state.--Aschlafly 11:39, 17 November 2008 (EST)

theory of evolution

This piece says that the libertarian solution to the evolution controversy in schools is to simply end public schooling [2]. Sounds like the opposite of "libertarian censorship". FernoKlump^{Look at this petition!} 10:20, 17 November 2008 (EST)

FernoKlump, don't be clueless. Claiming that the "solution" is ending public schooling can be just a deceitful way of supporting continuation of the censorship. Apparently that far-fetched approach fools some. Not us.--Aschlafly 10:31, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Fine, please add citations to the statements. I looked, but I only found evidence to the contrary. FernoKlump^{Look at this petition!} 11:08, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Giving up might be the solution here.

Schlafly thinks that Libertarians are liberals, that mean that any attempt to make the not look like devil spawn will probably bereverted, hell he might block me for saying that. I'd like to see the article have some sort of backing at least, but no one can findthe evidence to support those claims because it doesn't exist because they are false and Andy will not let them be taken downs. His Ideological stand overrides and kind of factual needs. --Brendanw 10:31, 17 November 2008 (EST)

You're right, you are being blocked for that (for just a day). First, don't swear here. Second, don't engage in ad hominem attacks here.--Aschlafly 10:34, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Counter examples

Would counter examples help to change people's opinions here, or would I just be whistling in the dark? I have them for prayer and evolution, but stopped looking when I realized that they might not be welcome. ArnoldFriend 22:28, 17 November 2008 (EST)