Talk:Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day

Purgatory is the doctrine of Anti-Christ. It denies that the sacrificial death and resurrection of Christ is sufficient for salvation. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:31, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

According to here, it seems that the concept of Purgatory could very well be valid. Besides, for good Christians who may have had several unrepented sins before dying and entering the Day of Judgment, how could they go to Heaven without being fully cleansed? What about those who have more flaws though still repent and try to live by strong Christian principles? If Purgatory isn't real, then where is the dividing line between whether people go to Heaven or Hell over sins unrepented before death? —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 14:33, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Oh, so the sacrificial atonement of Christ is insufficient. Your blood is upon your own head. Okay. I understand clearly where you are coming from. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:56, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

• by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I don't see any exceptions in there. If he hath perfected them forever, why am I, or anybody, held accountable? Secondly, No man cometh to the Father but by me. But I can ignore Christ's sacrificial offering, and pay for my own salvation anyway myself, right? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:04, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Right, Liberal Tears. The Catholic Answers site produces many proofs of Purgatory.

Yah yah yah, we all get it Catholic doctrine overrules the Word of God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:08, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Rob Smith, what is your answer to 1 Cor 3:13-15. It clearly speaks of some being saved only through fire. That is Purgatory. Every one who is perfected is perfected through the Cross. That remains true. The Bible also speaks of "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23) which is another reference to how the departed just are slowly made perfect. Read 1 Pet 3 and 4 and Mat 5 and you'll see the Lord and His Apostles speak of a Prison of Spirits. The Cross purifies them when they are there and they are rightly released at the proper time. Our Lord also spoke of those who receive lesser stripes. That is another reference to Purgatory. Then St. Paul prays for his departed friend. I'll add those references as Fourth and Fifth proofs. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 21:58, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

I think you have to do way better than this to refute the Doctrine of Christ. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 05:41, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Purgatory reminds me of Israel in the wilderness: after they were eyewitnesses to God's mighty power in Egypt, after they saw God destroy their enemies when he parted the sea, after He fed them in the wilderness (I'll withhold the sermon on the bread of life for now), after they heard the gospel preached (Heb 4:2), they still rejected the Good News (he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified) and bowed down to worship the golden calf. Wherefore, I was grieved with that generation....' RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 05:54, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Let's discuss sanctification for a moment (if you wanted to pick apart my argument on the other page, you think you would have keyed on the word sanctify). To be sanctified means to be set apart. Israel was set apart from Egypt. Here's your opportunity to tear into the doctrine of "once saved, always saved", but evidently lack the spiritual capacity. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:05, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Open your eyes! Purgatory denies the Gospel of the saving grace of Jesus Christ! RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 07:16, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Nobody's trying to refute the Doctrine of Christ, except one Mr. Rob Smith. I'm inviting you to accept the Full Gospel of Jesus Christ Our Lord, including that Prison of Spirits He and His Apostle St. Peter speak of. Answer my question (1) Does 1 Cor 3:13-15 distinguish two types of Christians or not? Yes or no? (2) If Yes, and of course it is yes, what happens to the good Christians on Judgment Day? Do they receive a reward for their good works that survive the fire or not? Yes or no (3) What happens to the bad Christians? Do they suffer loss? Yes or no (Yes). ARe their works burned up (Yes). Will they be saved? Yes, but only through fire. That's Purgatory. You have no response for it, because you've accepted OSAS false doctrine. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 08:24, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

You have to deal with 5 proofs first. After that, we can come to your objections. Your solitary objection is weak. All sanctification comes from the Cross. That doesn't mean no one has to do anything - otherwise, each and every single person would already be saved, since Jesus Christ died for all, as it is written in 1 Jn 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" 08:25, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

You're putting the cart before the horse again. Explain to me what the Doctrine of Christ is. Do not cite any source outside the Bible. Do not make any reference to Catholicism or Protestantism. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:11, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Doctrine of Christ is indeed a Biblical term, so you shouldn't need any help from outside the Bible. The Doctrine of Christ is self contained within the Bible. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 16:53, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

This is not about Catholicism or Protestantism per se. 1 Cor 3:13-15 is a Biblical Text, not a Church document. It clearly says (1) some receive a reward from the Lord, namely good Christians; (2) others will be saved, but only through fire, namely bad Christians. Your argument is with the Bible. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 08:30, 14 July 2020 (EDT)

The Doctrine of Christ refers to the Doctrine taught by Jesus Christ. Purgatory is part of that, as the Lord's mention of the Prison in Mat 5 mentioned in the article shows. Thus, those who knowingly and deliberately reject Purgatory seem to reject the Doctrine of Christ NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 08:31, 14 July 2020 (EDT)

(A) You haven't fully answered the question. (B) There is no purgatory in the Bible. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:34, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. Christ died once for sin. These are essential elements of the Doctrine of Christ. Don't you see how purgatory denies the finished work of Christ? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:44, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Explain 1 Cor 3:13-15. You've been running around in circles to avoid doing this. It's obvious why. It thoroughly proves Purgatory from the Bible. 00:36, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ died once for all'; above you just said Christ died for some. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:37, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

No, I didn't. That's called a non sequitur, and is also a strawman. Christ died for all, but all are not saved, are they? You have to receive His Forgiveness in Baptism and Confession, or by repentance from a contrite heart for each of your mortal and venial sins. If any venial sins remain, you will go to Purgatory NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:41, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Ok, I'd love to discuss this entire chapter, but I'm a little rushed for time right now. Have to leave in 10 minutes. We can begin at the point I cited a few days ago, hitherto you were not able to bear. I hope you re-read the chapter over night. Keep in mind, the labour being discussed refers to doing God's work, for lack of better terminology let's call it "church building" or "winning souls". At verse 13 it's being more pointedly discussed, and we can get into more of that tomorrow. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:49, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Let me add quickly, God is not going to punish somebody for winning souls. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:51, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Sure, take your time. The Bible says, "the fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov 11:30). So I do agree that winning souls for Christ is very important; but just as we are called to love and serve our neighbor as our self by lovingly caring for their souls, so we are also called to care for our own soul first, for it is written, "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:" (Jam 2:8); part of caring for our own soul involves co-operating with God's Grace to complete the sanctification of our souls so that we can go to Heaven without purgatory. As it is written, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Heb 12:14). As it is also written that without faith it is impossible to please Him, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Heb 11:6), so also it is said no one will see the Lord without striving for sanctity or holiness. Hence, we must conclude Biblically that both faith and holiness are necessary to see the Lord one day. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:57, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Recall what was mentioned in the article: "1 Cor 3:[13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

What could possibly be clearer? The bad Christian is saved only through fire because of his bad works. The good Christian receives a reward from the Lord on that Day because of his good works. This text clearly shows that good works done with faith in Christ are necessary post-justification and contribute to the soul’s sanctification. If performed, they entitle us by God’s Grace to a heavenly reward, because God is so Good. But if neglected, they demand punishment, because God is Holy."

Ok, so you're denying Christ died once for all again. Okay. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:43, 15 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ died for all, but all are not saved. It's a shame you don't understand this. To be saved, you must confess yuor sins and receive Holy Communion. This is clear from the teaching of the Lord Jesus Himself, and of His Apostles. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 23:49, 17 July 2020 (EDT)

Nope. You're spouting church doctrine, not scriptural doctrine. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:19, 18 July 2020 (EDT)

• Unless I wash you, you are not clean.

(A) Where does Jesus promise cleaning after his death on the cross?

(B) Where does Jesus cleanse someone in Purgatory if the whole idea is that Jesus did not cleanse them on the cross? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:16, 18 July 2020 (EDT)

It is the Blood of Jesus from the Cross that progressively cleanses and sanctifies the souls in Purgatory. Even in this life, God uses trials to cleanse and sanctify us and draw us closer to Him. That's what "taking up your Cross and following Me" is all about. God does the same in Purgatory. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:23, 19 July 2020 (EDT)