Difference between revisions of "Talk:Barack Hussein Obama/archive3"

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=="Pearl Harbor"==
 
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Somewhat related to my last question: I'm not sure how the first quotation can be shown to effectively demonstrate Obama's alleged ignorance of American history. The Japanese DID drop bombs on Pearl Harbor... a lot of them, not just one. It seems likely that Obama simply failed to make the word "bomb" plural. So? --[[User:Kahazul|Kahazul]] 02:36, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 
  
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-Indeed, there's nothing about the reference that is stated in any sort of verifiable fact. I prefer to use the singular case when describing things myself, so I don't see why this ought be used against him. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 20:57, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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=="Gaffes"==
 
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In the George W. Bush article, Bush's many mangled and incorrect statements ("Bushisms") are dismissed as simple mistakes which draw exaggerated attention because of Mr. Bush's very prominent and public position. However, Obama's own gaffes are used as evidence for his ignorance and incompetence. This doesn't seem very consistent. --[[User:Kahazul|Kahazul]] 17:03, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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: The inconsistency is by liberals.  Compare how they treated one gaffe by [[Dan Quayle]] to multiple, more serious gaffes by [[Obama]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:08, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: That didn't really answer the question.  You changed the focus to liberals by stating that Quayle got treated worse for his gaffes, but didn't explain why Bush's gaffes aren't treated the same as Obama's.  Are you rebutting the criticism by basically saying liberals did it first? --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 17:15, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: If Bush's gaffes reflected an ignorance or disdain about America and American history, as Obama's gaffes reflect, then we would include them.  But Bush's don't.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:23, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: So, for instance, let's say John McCain says something along the lines of, "We were losing the war in Iraq.  The consequences of failure and defeat of the United States of America in the first major conflict since 9/11 would have had devastating impacts throughout the region and the world."  That would be an acceptable quote to put on his page, since it shows an ignorance or disdain about American history, since the war in Afghanistan would be the first major conflict since 9/11.  Am I correct?  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 17:56, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: No, Afghanistan would not be considered a "major conflict" in historical terms.  At a minimum there is reasonable grounds for disagreement about that.
 
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::::: I've addressed your issue.  Now it's time for you to address the inconsistency between liberals' treatment of gaffes by Obama and Quayle.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:11, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::: That was before my time (and I considered myself a conservative at the time), but I don't speak for all liberals.  On the flipside, you are the owner of CP, hence my questions to you specifically. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 18:30, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::: In other words, I answered your question of me, but you won't answer my similar question of you.  [[Clarence Darrow]] pulled a similar stunt on [[William Jennings Bryan]] at the [[Scopes Trial]].  Bryan answered Darrow's questions but then Darrow broke his promise and refused to answer Bryan's questions.  It's not a new liberal tactic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:40, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::: Okay, you want an answer, happy to provide (although, again, I'm not answering for all liberals, and you bringing in a Darrow reference doesn't fortify your argument): he was already the v.p. as opposed to being a nominee and was not known for his rhetorical skills, as opposed to Obama.  Secondly, the traditional media has a tendency to identify specific traits and building the entire image around those traits.  Hence, Gore become the exaggerator or liar after his Internet remark, and in the face of evidence to the contrary, Bush became the cowboy, despite having bought the ranch shortly before his run for president, and praised as the CEO president, despite a record of failed business ventures.  So the traditional media have a tendency to pick and run with certain images, and conservatives and liberals alike tend to follow and accept those storylines. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 21:04, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Most Liberal?==
 
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What about Bernie Sanders?
 
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==Religious Views==
 
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Is "reared a Baptist" accurate? Was he born and raised Baptist? Did he attend Christian church while going to Indonesian public schools? He talks of no religion and of finding religion in his book, I think (didn't read). reared?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 11:22, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:If you read the article correctly, you would know that Obama is a secret Muslim--[[User:Ivysaur|Ivysaur]] 17:47, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Franklin Graham (son of Billy) tried to find out is Obama was a Christian. It looks like the answer is no![http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68581]--[[User:Hurst|Hurst]] 16:49, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Actually, the quote from that article is that Obama said, 'Jesus is the only way for me. I'm not in a position to judge other people.' when asked if he believed that Jesus was the only way to salvation. All of the accusations in that article indicating that he is a Muslim have already been cited (from the original sources, not an article which cites them in turn) on this or the main page. [[User:Ithig|Ithig]] 17:25, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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== No citation ==
 
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"after liberals obtained the release of confidential and personally embarrassing divorce records of his opponent"
 
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Where is the source that supports "liberals" obtained the release of any information? The reality is that both Ryan and his wife authorized the court to release the documents. They did so in response not only to requests by the news media but also by requests from his opponents in the GOP primary.
 
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: No, the sensitive and highly confidential information was ordered to be released by a judge upon the request of a newspaper supporting [[Barack Obama]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:51, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: If you are accurate then you should have no problem finding a source to cite in order to back it up. Is this an encyclopedia or not?
 
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== Why lead with the criticisms? ==
 
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This article should certainly include the criticisms and his misrepresentations, but why are they at the top of the article? [[User:Yesaliberal|Yesaliberal]] 15:04, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Sad. No responses at all. The people conservapedia likes will get decent articles, those that it dislikes will lead with critcism. Hm, sounds like bias to me. Oh well. [[User:Yesaliberal|Yesaliberal]] 10:43, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: The response is obvious: good entries lead with the most informative material, just as newspaper articles and good encyclopedias do.  We don't fall for the Wikipedia trick of [[placement bias]], where it leads with [[liberal fluff]] and buries or omits informative truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:54, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: LOL! [[User:Yesaliberal|Yesaliberal]] 07:41, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Yesaliberal indeed. Where reason fails, resort to infantile mockery. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 07:48, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Point taken. As I said, the criticisms and his misrepresentations should be included by all means. I'm a firm believer in the "warts and all principle." It's the differences between the layouts of the articles of say Obama and G.W. Bush which introduce the bias that you accuse Wikipedia of. Wouldn't it be unbiased to include criticisms of Bush at the same relative position as Obama, such as the WMDs issue in Iraq? Surely war criticism must rank at least as highly as the "57" issue mentioned in Obama's article, particularly since this is perhaps a case of mis-speaking on Obama's part. Bush is almost legendary for his oratory stumbling. [[User:Yesaliberal|Yesaliberal]] 15:01, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Well, if you want to get to "informative truth," why isn't the top of John McCain's page about how he sold other POWs out, didn't pay his taxes, and left his crippled wife in the 70's for a beer fortuness that was worth 100 mil and was 18 years younger than him? That would seem biased and mean toward McCain, wouldn't it? Yeah, it would, and it's no different here. We need to have respect for Republicans and Democrats alike, especially the two men who one of them is going to be the President by next January. [[User:Impm|Impm]]
 
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I think the criticisms should be entered under a seperate section. It's dripping off with political bias.[[User:Swatje|Swatje]]
 
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== Nomination timing ==
 
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Obama hasn't won the nomination until Hillary concedes, or when the delegates vote.  The timing is not determined by the press.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:14, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Then how is McCain the nominee when the delegates haven't been voted and Ron Paul hasn't conceded?  Technically both candidates are the presumptive nominee. And even the [http://www.democrats.org DNC's website] has him listed on the front page as the nominee. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 21:17, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: That's a silly appeal to consistency.  Ron Paul is nowhere near John McCain in popular vote or delegate tallies.  In contrast, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote and is close in delegate count.
 
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: The odds are overwhelming that Obama will win the nomination.  But it's error to claim he's already won it when his close rival has not conceded.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:22, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Then it's an error that not only have all the major news organizations made, but the DNC website as well.  To mollify your criticisms, I have added the technicality that the nomination becomes official upon Clinton's concession or at the nominating convention.  Of course, the DNC website announcing he's the nominee makes the point a little less important, but facts are facts and have been noted accordingly on the entry. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 21:25, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: Jareddr, [[conservatives]] don't worship the media as liberals do.  The major news organizations have all been wrong about many things, and will continue to make errors or intentional mistakes.  They don't decide the outcome of elections.  You might as well cite what all your classmates or co-workers think if you're going to cite the media as an authority.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:27, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: How about citing the official party website as the authority?  Because the DNC said he's the nominee and yet your response didn't touch on that part.  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 21:40, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: I left it in about the DNC.  You're right to cite it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:47, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: Classmates and media as equal in authority - can we get that posted as an official policy somewhere? [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 21:36, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: Maybe I was too hasty in my remarks ... because that comparison gives the media too much credit!  The media is probably more biased, politically and for financial reasons, than classmates are.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:47, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Association with Black supremacists ==
 
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I think Obama's documented association and, indeed support, of Black supremacists, such as Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan, is deserving of a section in his article.
 
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He refused, on TV, to denounce or reject Louis Farrakhan (a man who publically said "White people are potential humans, they haven't evolved yet".
 
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[[User:Alfred123|Alfred]]
 
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:I saw that debate, and I think he did "reject and denounce" Farrakhan's endorsement, but only after being badgered by Mrs. Bill Clinton. [[User:Darkknight|Darkknight]] 17:08, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Switching the two pictures' placement ==
 
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Would'nt it be better to have the composite- type picture at the top of the article, as this article is about him and the current picture presents him with other people?  I understand that the intention of this site is to showcase issues from a conservative point of view, but does it have to be done at the expense of being more encyclopedic?--[[User:Irockarolex|Irockarolex]] 11:08, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Placing his official photo on top I believe would constitute [[photo bias]] according to previous attempts. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 11:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Hmmm.  It would appear that the current layout is a shinning example of the photo bias you speak of.  Perhaps you were being sarcastic, I am not caffeinated enough for my sarcasm detector to kick in.  Anyway, just my thoughts.  I thought making the change would lend a bit more credibility to the article and make it look like less of an attack page.--[[User:Irockarolex|Irockarolex]] 20:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Just didn't want to see you get banned for credibility's sake. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 21:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Obama's personal achievements a result of affirmative action ==
 
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I must say, as a black man, I find it very encouraging that one can depend on affirmative action to rise to the distinctive position of presidential candidate.  Here I am, with a modest job in sales and all this time I could have been riding the affirmative action train all the way to Washington!  Does every black person know this?  Holy jeez, man, we could hold every elected position in America if this news got out.  I'll see you suckers in 2012, vote for me.  Thanks affirmative action!--[[User:Carterlansford|Carterlansford]] 22:00, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Yeah, I thought he actually had won his seat in the Senate because more people voted for him.  I had no idea that the other person had actually gotten more votes in the election, but because of Affirmative Action, they gave it to Obama anyway.  Makes me wonder why they even had an election to begin with. [Dingus]
 
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Well, look. Any black person who competes with any white person for anything in America has the benefit of white guilt and preferential treatment.  That's because the liberals run everything. This in turn means that any time you see a black person in a good job you can say, "That just proves black people are inferior, because he wouldn't be there without affirmative action." This seems to be the subtext here, anyway. And not to put too fine a point on it, it's as racist as a burning cross.
 
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ASchlafly: Is it inconvenient to be so transparent?  Do people, like, see you digesting your breakfast and stuff?  [[User:Archer070]]
 
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Nothing new to add here, except to marvel at the fact that the line is still there and unchanged three months later.  I would have thought they'd at least change "likely" to "possible".--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 16:13, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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==huh?==
 
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whats with that punishment pic? His quote is fine I am sure but that is some drawing and isnt encyclopedic what so ever!
 
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[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 05:37, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:A quick google search shows that it's on sex education, I've added an appropriate caption and will add context to the article. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 06:25, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: [[Liberals]] do not support funding for abstinence education, and we're not going to mislead people here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:30, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: I definitely don't support funding for abstinence-only education, and I'm happy for you guys to not mislead anyone about that. But the image just makes you look like a bunch of jackasses. It's like having a LOLcat-type image of Obama saying "Evolution: I taught ur kidz it." It may be an accurate statement of the liberal position, but you still look stupid for putting it in an encyclopedia. [[User:Athuroglossos|Athuroglossos]]
 
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That's because it doesn't work as well as sex education. There's no basis for supporting abstinence education other than an ideological one, but even that is shaky since it's associated with more problems. [[User:Murray|Murray]] 21:44, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: I advise strongly that you read the transcript of the interview before making blanket assumptions. I will leave out the bit on abstinence education but will readd the rest of the text, otherwise the picture makes absolutely no sense. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 08:51, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::Also it was entirely possible to remove the bit about abstinence education (thus removing any implication that liberals support it) without reverting two edits and other information. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 09:00, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Since some seem to believe it's about abortion, here's the full quote showing that it is about sex education:
 
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{{cquote|So, when it comes to -- when it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence only -- should include abstinence education and teaching that children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16.
 
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You know, so, it doesn't make sense to not give them information. You still want to teach them the morals and the values to make good decisions. That will be important, number one. Then we're still going to have to provide better treatment for those who do have -- who do contract HIV/AIDS, because it's no longer a death sentence, if, in fact, you get the proper cocktails. It's expensive. That's why we want to prevent as much as possible.}}
 
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Since we're the trustworthy encyclopedia I see no reason to quote mine and suggest he was referring to abortion. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 21:10, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== "Anti-Soldier Candidacy" ==
 
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''"Senator Obama began his anti-soldier candidacy for President of the United States on February 10, 2007"''
 
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This is clearly a heavily biased statement.  After editing out the "anti-soldier" remark, it was replaced within 2 minutes.  This site never had a lot of credibility to begin with, but this whole article is just transparently biased.  Amazingly so for a site whose main claim against Wikipedia is that they slant to the left.
 
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Apparently insinuating that Barak Obama's candidacy is not based on being "anti-soldier" is "Liberal bias"
 
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''Warning: your introduction of liberal bias is getting tiresome and will lead to blocking of your account.--Aschlafly 11:23, 8 June 2008 (EDT)''
 
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This is simply amazing.
 
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: Obama raised a ton of money for his campaign from anti-soldier, anti-military sources.  Obama catered to that support in key ways.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:43, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Then why not call it "anti-war"?  It's quite a leap to say Obama himself or his campaign is anti-soldier.  In fact I think you're using the terms anti-war and anti-soldier interchangeably when they should not be.  One can be anti-military in convictions but that does not make him anti-soldier.  The argument is misleading and it seems purposefully so.  With respect, it would speak a great deal to the creditability here if you allow the replacement of 'anti-soldier' with 'anti-war' because I believe there is a valid case for it.
 
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: It's not primarily "anti-war," but rather is mostly "anti-soldier" or "anti-military".  Many [[leftists]] hate soldiers.  They really do.  They even insult and protest against them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:07, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: I know many leftists, and none of them seem to hate soldiers.  One of my good friends is extremely left-wing (has gay parents), and is ''in'' the military.  I'm not sure the "General Betrayus" comment was necessarily anti-military, it seemed more anti-a-specific-person.  And what about all of the pro-veteran bills being introduced by Democrats?  I think it's ''without a doubt'' that many leftists are anti-war, but I think it's a stretch to say they're anti-soldier.--[[User:Cockamamie|Cockamamie]] 12:32, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Don't you have to actually show that *Obama himself* hates soldiers and/or is anti-military before putting that in his entry?  Are there no standards whatsoever here except not being liberal? [Dingus]
 
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I don't appreciate you changing the title of my question to "liberal complaint".  I am a conservative.  The problem here is that you have such a great opportunity to present conservative and liberal viewpoints free of the bias normally associated with them.  I believe that true conservative ideals do not need to be slanted or have their opposition omitted to be attractive.  You are in fact using standard liberal practices of accepting only "convenient" facts and purposefully omitting opposing viewpoints.  These practices, which are unfortunately present in abundance, are serving only to perpetuate a negative stereotype of conservatism.  What you're doing is hurting our ideals when you have a tremendous opportunity to be helpful.
 
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::: Obama raised money, big money, from anti-military supporters.  Moveon.org actually endorsed Obama and raised a ton of money for him, and Moveon.org took out an ad in the NY Times mocking our top general.  Enough said?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:56, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: So when racists endorse McCain, you'll edit McCain's entry to indicate that he's running a racist campaign?[Dingus]
 
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::::: You speak in non sequiturs.  McCain does not welcome any racist donations.  Obama welcomed tens of millions of dollars in largely anti-military donations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::: No, but McCain accepted 300k from a man who likened rape to bad weather, saying that "as long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." He also told a female competitor for Governor of Texas, the office he was running for, that he would "hog her and tie her and drag her through the dirt." McCain accepted 300,000 dollars for his campaign that this man raised. So I suppose McCain is a raging sexist, too?
 
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:: If you are trying to paint Obama as "anti-soldier," you might consider removing the following:
 
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::    ''* S.117 : A bill to amend titles 10 and 38, United States Code, to improve benefits and services for members of the Armed Forces, veterans of the Global War on Terrorism, and other veterans, to require reports on the effects of the Global War on Terrorism, and for other purposes.
 
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::    ''* S.713 : A bill to ensure dignity in care for members of the Armed Forces recovering from injuries. [[User:SamSamson|SamSamson]] 17:32, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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It gets even better. Apparently, if you add a '''citation needed'''{{fact}} to some [[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=469755&oldid=469754 unreferenced opinions]], then the changes are immediately reverted and your userid is temporarily blocked. Does Conservapedia believe that asking for facts and references is a liberal bias? --[[User:SamSamson|SamSamson]] 12:46, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Why, yes.  Yes they do.--[[User:Irockarolex|Irockarolex]] 15:05, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Michelle Obama ==
 
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To add to Obama's biographical information, it would be helpful to have a picture of Michelle Obama uploaded.  Perhaps this picture could be used: [http://obamaquotes.com/Squidoo-Xmas-Card-Portrait.jpg Obama Family Christmas Card]?
 
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:: Might not be good enough for this page; they don't seem enough like angry black militants.
 
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Michelle Obama was raised in a middleclass home. She attended an ivy legue college. Might she be the first affirmative-action First Lady, if, a big if BO makes it?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 21:57, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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:So only rich white people get into an Ivy League college on their own merit?  If you are middle-classed and black, it's automatically affirmative-action?  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 08:18, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Punishment image ==
 
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'''Note to editors''' <br>
 
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If you remove the '''Image:Punishment.jpg''' from this article, you will be blocked for one day. --[[User:DeanS|DeanS<sup>formerly Crocoite</sup>]] 15:29, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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<u>Since the image has been removed several times and had to be reinserted, the '''blocks for removing the image''' will be '''increased to 3 days'''.</u> --[[User:DeanS|DeanS<sup>formerly Crocoite</sup>]] 21:36, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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This image is ridiculous. There's no reason to have an image with that quote. I could go to McCain's page, pull a quote of his out of context, apply a "witty" image, and I'd probably get banned. I'm removing it as a protest, it's worth the one day block. -- Aaronp
 
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:Wouldn't that be considered blocking because of ideology? --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 15:55, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:"Editors" not "Editor's" [[User:Dnotice|Dnotice]] 17:25, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Obviously this page isn't fair or balanced, but this kind of thing is purely sensationalist. Removed, block me.[[User:Godlover|Godlover]] 17:36, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:That certainly does look like blocking for ideology.  Besides, [[:Image:Punishment.jpg]] is clearly a propagandistic image, not an encyclopedic image.  If someone at the evil liberal Wikipedia took a quote from a politician and Photoshopped an image like that, then inserted that image into that politician's article, they'd get reverted and possibly blocked for it.  At the very least, the evil liberal Wikipedia administrators wouldn't use admin tools to protect one revision of an article with a provocative image.  If you're going to be a "trustworthy encyclopedia", then stick to an encyclopedic treatment of the facts, quotes, and opinions.  --[[User:Elkman|Elkman]] 17:39, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I'm confused as to how the image is relevant at all.  It's just a picture of a baby, and doesn't provide any new information.  The purpose of images is usually to add context, and as an encyclopedia, I would think the goal here is to cut down on clutter.  And honestly the "motivational poster" style reminds me of 4chan. [[User:Fantasia|Fantasia]] 18:26, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Entirely unencyclopedic and unprofessional, more suitable for a set of conservative blog posts than a reference source.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 19:24, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I'd be surprised if any of you CP sysops have ever even glanced through an encyclopedia. Please stop calling this project an encyclopedia as you are taking that name in vain. [[User:TBarret|TBarret]] 21:22, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I think that the image is not appropriate for an encyclopedia entry.  Use the quote in the article, get rid of the image. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 22:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Not only is the image accurate and acceptable, the fact that liberals are obsessed with removing it shows it makes a difference. Somebody removed it again. make sure you keep it up until the end of the year at the least.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 17:10, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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The image is unrelated.  The quote is very applicable, but should be used separately from the image.  --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 17:16, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Since it is such a contentious issue the image should stay and the question should be referred to Andy or senior sysops for decision. It is not for anyone to remove. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 17:18, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::something being contentious is not reason enough for it to be in the article.  In order for an image to be part of an article it has to have some connection to the article itself.  The image in question, (a baby held in hands) has no connection to Barack Obama, and therefore deserves no place in the article. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 17:27, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::It is contentious between sysops and therefore hasty action ought not to be taken. You can read what Dean has said at the head of this section. Why should sysop CPAdmin1 have more or less authority than sysop DeanS? Where there is such a clash, the answer is not to have an edit war, but to refer the matter upstairs. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 17:30, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: If the image is unrelated, than consider taking down Obamas no hand over the heart during the national anthem. Obama says he is partiotic just not in a normal way. The guy has a 100% record on death to children in the womb. Abortion is a big issue and Obamas view of a mistake is a baby. He should be called out in any image. Is a baby a mistake? You decide if Obama is right by looking at the picture. The connection is clear. If not allowed to stand, then a picture of mutilated aborted child should take its place.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 22:26, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::The quote can stand without the image.  People don't need a picture to know what a baby is. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 15:33, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Where is DeanS? There is a picture of a child in womb on John McCains page. What is the difference between images? Remove Obama's quote and keep the Picture with the headline Punishment.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 15:20, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::I also removed the picture from the McCain article.
 
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I have protected this article because of disruptive edit-warring.  Wil the involved parties please seek consensus on this talk page instead of reverting? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 21:57, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:A great idea - perhaps someone should convene the Student Panel and get them to rule on this.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 22:24, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Why don't you do it? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 22:27, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::I assume that is something a sysop/site administrator would do.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 22:31, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::Nope.  You can do it if you want.  But why not have the involved editors (or even the entire conservapedia community) come to consensus on this talk page? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 22:35, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::Are you talking about a true consensus - one editor one vote? or one sysop one vote? Or one senior admin one vote? Well, for my two cents' worth - the picture is silly, adds nothing to the article and makes Conservapedia look more like a blog than an encyclopedia. It does the whole project a disservice and robs the implied editorial position (a position which I disagree with but respect), that B.O. is an inferior candidate to J.M. of a lot (as in almost all) credibility. Oh, yeah - the U of C CLEARLY stated that B.O. held a title "equivalent to professor." Why is that such a problem? [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 22:52, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::Thank you for your opinion.  Now we are going to wait to see what other editors say.  [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 23:03, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::I would make the image smaller, and with a more detailed caption as to what it is, where it came from, and the source of the Obama quote within. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:08, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::: There's no reason to have the image at all, as it has nothing to do with an encyclopedic entry on Obama. Alice is correct in saying that it makes CP look like a conservative blog. Like I said previously, I could go through and do the same thing to other pages, slapping on "witty" macros, but that wouldn't contribute anything to the encyclopedic goals of CP. The image should stay removed. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]
 
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::::::::Do you think this image would be better in an article about the campaign between Obama and McCain, as in a something about means and methods used to get a point across?  It may have an actual quote from Obama, but it's still a campaign poster.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:19, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::Is that an article yet? It is fairly early. Does it still need to be written? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 23:23, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::Karajou - only if the poster came from somewhere with some sort of notability - the RNC, the McCain campaign, a large, nationwide right-to-life group, something of that nature. As far as I understand, this thing was put together on an open access website and published on Some Guy's Blog. I could run off a dozen similar things in an hour and put them on a blog somewhere - that hardly warrants their inclusion in an encyclopedia article.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 23:24, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::::True, but it doesn't automatically exclude it either. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 23:26, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::::As a campaign image, it could go in an article about the current campaign, but I agree with Alice in that the image appears to have been created by a single individual not connected to anything beyond a personal blog.  If the image was created by a McCain staffer, than it could be included.
 
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::::::::::The article should be titled "2008 Presidential Campaign", and have subtopics on all the participants and their outcomes.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:28, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::::Page does exist: [http://www.conservapedia.com/2008_Presidential_Campaign].  Maybe make a subtopic on methods used by all sides to put their point across.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 23:38, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::::::Or we could not put any propaganda up on the encyclopedia at all until the issue is over with or unless it is highly influential (a la that ad with the atomic bomb and the young girl), as would seem more appropriate for a reference site.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 23:41, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::::::The image has no place in an encyclopedia article.  It does not relate to Obama or to the quote.  I think it should be deleted.  --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 23:56, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::::::::Your removal of the image defeats the purpose of my locking the page in an dispute resolution attempt.  I am now entirely confused as to how to solve this, now the other users will cry foul and I will be forced to unlock commencing the revert war.  I personally thought that we were on our way to reaching consensus. *sigh* [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 00:00, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::::::::I think that a consensus can be reached just as easily without the image in the article in the meantime.  I think that while debating and coming to a consensus it makes more sense to have the questionable image out of the article.  It is certainly not hurting the article, or the credibility of this site while it is not in the article.  The debate is over whether it does that while in the article.  Therefore, it makes more sense to keep it out of the article, and not in a position to be a problem.  --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 00:12, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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If it is deleted from the article how can people reach an informed decision on whether it should be in the article or not? It appears to me that you are asserting ownership of this piece, and that is neither justified nor justifiable. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 05:54, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I would like to lend my voice to this and say I oppose the picture, it offers no value. The quote might but the picture does not
 
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[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:10, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I would like to lend my voice to this and say I support the picture, it offers enormous value. The left wins when it is removed. The left that supports abortion and the candidate who condones abortion wins. Silence opposition to abortion, go ahead, smart move that you will answer for one day.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 10:25, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I oppose the picture's inclusion.  The quote is already in the article; the picture is unnecessary and does not belong in an encyclopædia. -[[User:CSGuy|CSGuy]] 10:53, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Don't get me wrong.  I hate abortion as much as anyone here.  That photo just is not related to Obama.  If you want to put the photo in the abortion article, go ahead.  as for making an informed decision, I'll put the photo here where people can look at it. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 10:54, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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[[Image:Punishment.jpg|325px|thumb|right|]]
 
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==  "but later stopped wearing it without adequate explanation." ==
 
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Um, this is an encyclopedia. It's not our place to pass judgment on whether it was adequate or not, especially when the explanation given is not quoted. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 18:27, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Hmmm There are a number of conservative politicians that aren't wearing flag pins.  Can we put up a picture of those politicians and make note that they didn't explain their removal? Perhaps I can get permission to add a recent picture of John McCain not wearing his pin?--[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 18:31, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Ah yes, the flag pin malarky. Yes, I suppose the man who wants to take the troops home and provide them with a good education and good healthcare benefits and actually reward their service is anti-patriotic and anti-soldier. Are you sure you people aren't hinting at something more devious? That he can't be President because he's unpatriotic? Or that he can't be President because he's black? [[User:TBarret|TBarret]] 21:41, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Wow, now Obama supporters are going to imply that a criticism about his lack of lapel pin has something to do with his ethnicity?!  Obama supporters are hilarious.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:58, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Guess who does wear a flag pin.....[http://tingilinde.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/29/craigmugshot.jpg Mr. Bathroom Knocker] himself. Lets automatically vote him for president, as he completes the only requirement to be a president, wearing the sacred flag pin. --[[User:JMarks|JMarks]] 15:38, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Right wingers are terrifying. You may think I'm hilarious, but the vast majority of African Americans think the flag pin controversy is simply a front by the right (As well as the constant use of his middle name, Hussein) to make the case that Obama is somehow 'unamerican' and 'unpatriotic'. Well, the American people are really sick of it this time Mr. Schlafly. We're not going to stand for this dinosour 'got ya' politics anymore. Come November, the American people will have spoken and your brand of smear, insult and pettiness will become nothing more than an internet phenonomon, where only the most disjointed will indulge in the politics of character destruction. I hope you enjoyed your twenty years under the sun, but finally, America is going to enter the 21st century. [[User:TBarret|TBarret]] 09:50, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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The sentence which indicates that Obama wearing a flag pin "might be political pandering" has no reference and no basis in verifiable fact.  This comment should be removed.  [[User:Jparenti|Jparenti]] 11:50, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==The Introduction==
 
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The introduction should give a passionless rundown of the man's life and times. Please consult a Britannica article for proper format. This 'swiftboating' that begins at the article is highly unacceptable for an academic project. [[User:TBarret|TBarret]] 21:41, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Does anyone have any interest in discussing how to actually improve this article, or are we happy to allow the outline of an article be overwhelmingly critical? If you are serious about making an encyclopedia, then please, consider professional measures even about people you dislike. [[User:TBarret|TBarret]] 10:02, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:TB - The site's administration has made it clear that the tone of this article is not up for negotiation: From the professor-not-a-professor question and the choice to ignore what the U of C has to say on the matter, to the baby image to the fact that while the McCain article excuses his voting absences due to the fact that JM is running for President while the Obama article makes no such excuse.... So while some editors may, as you put it, "have [an] interest in discussing how to actually improve this article," Conservapedia, as an institution, would prefer to "allow the outline of [the] article be overwhelmingly critical." You don't like it? Go edit at Wikipedia, or do as Aschafly did, and start your own wiki project.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:33, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Why the concern, though?  I too was annoyed at the coverage, and then came to a realization last night.  Who is CP's audience?  Homeschoolers?  Assuming this is their only political reference point---they're too young to vote anyway.  And any adult who uses CP as a primary source of information isn't likely to vote for Barack Obama regardless of whether CP acknowledges he served as a professor or not.  Anyone who sees this site and buys the information presented was never, and will never be, a Barack Obama voter.  So why waste the energy trying to correct the misinformation on the site for viewers that won't use it anyway? --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 10:37, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Structure==
 
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I personally would like to see this page in the same format as McCain. Obviously, Obama has less of a history to compare apples with apples. However, I like McCains page structure. In Obamas structure, you have Positions and Qualifications. Also, Obamas page has Political Views which are essentially positions. McCain page lists -budget -education -healthcare. Obamas hasn't the layout and seems to be more piece meal with a scattering of viewpoints. I would change but I don't feel I have authority for signification structure changes.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 23:26, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:I would like to see a standardized structure for articles on politicians. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 16:29, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::[[Conservapedia:Manual of Style/Politicians]] is what you are looking for. It seems to me that the first step in complying with this template would be to move most of the intro into the relevant sections in the article. The intro should only include "'''Subject's Name''' (in bold) followed by a brief synopsis of notable positions held or sought." ~ [[User:Ithig|Ithig]] 11:04, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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== The Senior Lecturer Reference ==
 
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The reference that CPadmin1 used says that Obama "served as a professor in the law school."  Since that information, quoted verbatim, was removed earlier, perhaps another reference should be used, lest that information leak out? --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 17:24, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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The references being used for this section are incorrect.  If you follow the link on the pages you eventually get to this page:  http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html.  There it states: Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track.  The statement being made is blatantly false and has been addressed by the university of Chicago.--[[User:Redragon104|Redragon104]] 14:09, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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'Obama falsely claimed that he was a constitutional law professor, when in actuality he merely held the position of "Senior Lecturer."'
 
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This was reverted to, but it's completely incorrect.  It implies Obama made a deceitful claim.  In fact, Obama did "served as a professor" at the law school according to the school itself, so it is not false to claim that Obama was a "law professor".  It would be false to claim Obama "held the title of Professor"; however, Obama did not claim this.  Furthermore, information regarding Obama's occupation at U of Chicago is given twice in the article - this seems redundant.  I've changed the reference in the opening section but I think it should be deleted altogether.  Aschlafly, I respect you as the founder of this site but you're not going to revert this without a fair explanation surely?[[User:UlyssesNZ|UlyssesNZ]] 19:44, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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===False Citation===
 
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In the first paragraph of the article, it says "Obama falsely claimed that he was a constitutional law professor, when in actuality he merely held the title of "Senior Lecturer." when according to the source cited: "http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama/cv.html" it says he is. When I edited it to say the truth according to the website, it was reverted. Why?
 
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I have edited it again. I understand that this website is supposed to have a conservative twist, but unless conservatism is about spreading lies, then it shouldn't do so.
 
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--
 
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Agreed and have changed it again. I'll be watching the page for any further unexplained reverts. [[User:UlyssesNZ|UlyssesNZ]] 20:39, 16 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Having had my edits reversed without explanation, I've restored them.  QWest described my edit as "liberal vandalism", which is a very unfair description in my humble opinion.  I'm not trying to be unreasonable but I think reversing my edits without explanation is. [[User:UlyssesNZ|UlyssesNZ]] 02:03, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Obama was never a professor.  He wasn't even close.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 02:09, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Sir, in saying that you're directly contradicting his employer, who surely gets to decide whether he's considered 'professor' or not.  What is your basis for that?  I think there's probably not a more reliable source than his employer. [[User:UlyssesNZ|UlyssesNZ]] 16:21, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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=== Curious about removal of "liberal bias" ===
 
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Why have various attempts to post about the University of Chicago's clarification [http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/28/832174.aspx] been deleted as "liberal bias"? Are they being worded incorrectly? [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 11:22, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Aschlafly, can we get an answer to this? How can citing the official University of Chicago response regarding Obama's University of Chicago employment to answer the question of Obama's employment at University of Chicago be considered liberal bias? [[User:Pharaonic|Pharaonic]] 21:33, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::You're new here, aren't you? 21:37, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Yes, but I was under the impression that Conservapedia is intended to be an encyclopedia that's free from liberal ''bias'', not one that censors facts that happen to be ''inconvenient'' to the conservative viewpoint. Doing so weakens the conservative argument and helps the liberals make their case. [[User:Pharaonic|Pharaonic]] 21:47, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::Well, you're wrong. Conservapedia is an encyclopedia that proudly wears its conservative bias on its sleeve. As for the methodology it takes to express that bias, and the ways in which that reflects upon conservatism writ large, well, the wiki belongs to one guy, and what he says goes.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:52, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: Pharaonic, it you sincerely don't understand why a "Senior Lecturer" is not a "Professor," then please see the discussion [http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Aehlinger|here]. (THIS LINK IS BROKEN, CAN YOU FIX?)  If you still don't get it, then I urge you never to work in a personnel or employee hiring department.
 
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::::: AliceBG, we don't have "conservative bias" here and your slurs and excessive talk are getting tiresome.  Let's see some substantive edits or please "move on," as [[liberals]] are fond of saying.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:02, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::: Mr. Schlafly, can you actually read? The University of Chicago says he's a professor. If your employer says you're a professor, you're a professor. That's pretty much the definition of the way it works. I don't understand what the controversy is. [[User:Athuroglossos|Athuroglossos]]
 
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::::::: Athuroglossos, it appears that you didn't read what the public relations department at Chicago actually said (it did not say [[Obama]] that held the title of professor).  Also, it's foolish for you to put so much emphasis on what a public relations said anyway, when the truth is so obvious.  Do you believe the press secretary for [[George W. Bush]] with such fervor also?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:59, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::: That's not the best analogy in that the press secretary works for the President and "serves at the pleasure of the President".  U of Chicago Law School public relations dept. doesn't work for Obama. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 23:02, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::If I may say without sounding rude Mr. Schlafly, you have many times stated that Conservapedia has a Conservative bias. It is called CONSERVapedia. --[[User:JMarks|JMarks]] 23:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:The press release reads, "From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama '''served as a professor''' in the Law School." Obama said, "I was a constitutional law professor," not "I held the title of professor." Your position is untenable, Mr. Schlafly; you might want to admit that you were wrong, and move on. Besides, the public relations arm of the University of Chicago—the world's leading school of conservative economics, I might add—is not a professional advocate for the Barack Obama campaign the way Dana Perino is a professional advocate for the President. [[User:Hindublog|Hindublog]] 17:18, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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If I could propose another track, the whole discussion about Obama's "professorship" is based on everyone's different idea of what a professor is.  Some say a professor has to be the research/paper-publishing/tenured kind while others say it's up to the employer.  How about actually using Conservapedia's definition of [[professor]] to decide whether or not he is one?  Given this is an encyclopedia after all, I would think that's the most logical (conservatively or liberally) definition to use.
 
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The current definition stands as ''"based on peer review of the scholar's work, and a process of election by his peers as specified by the rules of each college or university"''.  I suggest everyone base their arguments on this definition, or alternatively work to improve the rather skimpy Professor article instead of waging an edit war here.--[[User:Sentri|Sentri]] 22:19, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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That's a good call, and by that definition I think we need to say Obama was a professor.  I've removed any insinuation that he's made a deceitful claim because I think that is false.[[User:UlyssesNZ|UlyssesNZ]] 19:55, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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I hate to fight an edit war but I feel like I'm talking to myself here on the talk page - why can't other editors who oppose my point of view be reasonable about it instead of just reverting my edit? [[User:UlyssesNZ|UlyssesNZ]] 17:26, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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== "Presidential scrutiny sought more information on the Indonesia public school and it was determined not to be a Madrassa, teaching Islam." ==
 
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"Presidential scrutiny" is vague - did the President scrutinize the school? I think "media scrutiny" is what you mean.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:26, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Great point.  Please change accordingly.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:32, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: It's wrong to say he went to an Islamic school. He did not, and there is no evidence that there is. Conservatism is about a set of ideals, not fudging the truth.  {{unsigned|Impm}}
 
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== 57 Islamic states... ==
 
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1. "It has been observed" is passive voice and weak. 2. There are 57 states with Muslim majorities, but I don't think all of these are "Islamic states" in the way that say, Saudi Arabia and the UAE are. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:32, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:In addition, make note of the mistake, by all means.  But that is the most far-fetched explanation for the number.  There are 57 states with Muslim majorities, so he must have been thinking that instead?  Come on, let's at least TRY to be realistic, if not encyclopedic.  This has gone past the line of conservative into fringe thinking. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 10:34, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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No one has come up with any other explanation.  Also, by the way, when there is a Muslim majority, it is common to consider it to be an Islamic state.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:49, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:The other explanation is that it was a slip of the tongue.  Not every slip is Freudian and indicates he's actually a Muslim.  That's a pretty far-fetched conspiracy theory. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 10:58, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Actually, here's the explanation, clear and simple.  If you listen to the entire remark, he states that he has one more to go, and Alaska and Hawaii as well.  Taking three states from the 50 total, gives you 47 states that he visited.  A slip between saying forty-(seven) and fifty-(seven) is more likely especially if he was going to say something about visiting all 50 states (putting fifty in his head).  It's more likely he slipped between the forty part and said fifty, as opposed to some outlandish theory of how many Islamic states there are. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 11:04, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::here is the full quote.
 
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::''"Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go. Alaska and Hawaii, I was not allowed to go to even though I really wanted to visit, but my staff would not justify it."''
 
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::It is obvious where the number 57 comes from.  He accidentally added 10.  He excluded Alaska and Hawaii, because his staff "would not justify it" and he had been to all the other states except 1.  That leaves 47.  I simple mistake, "slip of the tounge" as Jareddr said is the only plausible explanation. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 11:06, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Here's another explanation - "57 states" is a figure of speech meaning "a whole lot of states". Why 57? Because of the well-known Heinz slogan "57 varieties". A far more likely explanation than some far-fetched attempt to link it to Islam, at least! [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:14, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Oh right.  And Obama learned about Heinz 57 in ... his Islamic grade school!
 
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: Face it, guys.  Americans learned that we have 50 states in grade school and no one educated here would ever make a mistake about the number.  Obama was educated in an Islamic grade school, which is a very different experience.  Perhaps that's not a big deal, but let's be truthful and honest about it rather than pretending he's something he's not.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:40, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::It was a slip of the tongue, not an actual mistake in knowledge.  No one who has lived in the united states any length of time, and served as a US senator would make a mistake about that.  If you read the entire quote which I posted above, he clearly goes through the math starting from 50 (all the states) subtracting Alaska and Hawaii, and one other state that he doesn't name.  This brings him to 47.  He accidentally said 57 (possibly because the number 50 was in his head because that is the number of states) instead of 47.  There is no reason for the number of islamic states to have anything to do with it.  --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 11:31, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Tim, that makes a lot of sense. I was puzzled when reviewing the YouTube speech, because he said "fifty ... seven" (where the ellipse indicates a kind of dragging out or pause, where he have begun to be aware of his verbal slip. It makes sense if he meant to say forty-seven because
 
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:::#He went on to say that he was not going to visit Alaska or Hawaii (50 - 2 - 48)
 
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:::#He said he had one state to go (48 - 1 - 47)
 
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:::It might be good for us to contact his campaign HQ and ask for a clarification. Does he stand by fifty-seven, or did he mean forty-seven? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 17:56, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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According to this site http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/57states.asp the senator poked fun at himself for saying 57 when he meant 47.  It seems like just a verbal slip up to me. [[User:CraigC|CraigC]] 10:29, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Drug use==
 
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Why is my statment about drug use being removed? It's an important thing. We all know drugs are dangerous and immoral. People need to be warned that a man who wants to be president used to be a drug addict. What sort of role model would he be? What does this say about his morals? What if he has a relapse while in office? Maybe the drugs have effected his brain. Do we want a president whos brain might be damaged from drug use? [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 11:37, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Please provide a cite.  --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 15:49, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::He talks about it in his book. Even Wikipedia mentions it. Here is a cite they use [http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/11/21/obama_gets_blunt_with_nh_students/]. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 15:55, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Ok, you can out it in, just put it somewhere further down the page because it is from a long time ago, and has little importance at this point. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 16:01, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Do you have any proof he was an addict? Additionally, you put "has allegedly stopped doing them" - why? He is the source for both statements (taking drugs, stopped taking them). [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 16:05, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::It's not that difficult, Wandering. A harmful self-revelation ("I'm a drug user") is likely to be true. In the nature of things, a beneficial self-revelation ("I'm nice and clean now") is less likely to be true. It comes from an understanding of human nature, something in which Liberals are curiously deficient. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 16:14, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::Well, if nothing else, I have to applaud your consistency and the efficiency of your early methods. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 16:40, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:I can't quite see how you're planning to use this against him. After all, the current president was also a cokehead and a pothead-- Oh. Nevermind, I see. [[User:DannyRedful|DannyRedful]] 16:08, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Are you trying to say drugs aren't addictive? Or it's OK if he didn't do them every day? As for George W. Bush do you have any proof to back up your slanderous attacks, or are you just going to smear him like all liberals do? Barack Hussein Obama admits he did illegal hard drugs. He has no reason to lie about that. He would have a reason to lie if he were still doing them. I don't know if he still does or not, but I wouldn't be surprised. Drug habits are very hard to break. Has he released the results of a drug test to the public? I don't think so. Do you wonder why he hasn't? [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 16:15, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Marijuana is not physically addictive, my parodist friend. I'm also not saying it's OK-- Please stop putting words in my mouth. Yes, yes I do: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6999665/ Bush makes sure you know he didn't deny it.] Furthermore, you called marijuana a hard drug, which is incorrect. [[User:DannyRedful|DannyRedful]] 16:22, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::"Marijuana is not physically addictive". Liberals love to pretend their favorite drugs aren't harmful. And did you not see that he did cocaine as well, or are you going to pretend that's not addictive either? He may say he only did it on occasion, but when it comes to drug use you have to take what a person admits they did and multiply it by 10, at least, if you want the truth. And Bush did not say what he did in his youth, so to say he did cocaine is speculation, and just making things up. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 16:34, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::Good sir, do you have a source to prove that Marijuana is physically addictive? Furthermore, yes, I saw that he did cocaine-- And to say that someone did cocaine ten times doesn't make sense. At that point they'd be addicted. Your logic is flawed terribly. Furthermore, he made a specific effort to not deny he did cocaine. Your remarks that Obama might be doing cocaine in office are, however, pure speculation. Good day. [[User:DannyRedful|DannyRedful]] 16:41, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::Whether or not it is "physically addictive" is not important. It is illegal, immoral, and dangerous. It is also a gateway drug to the hard drugs that are even more dangerous. In Obama's case it led to cocaine. You say someone is addicted to cocaine after doing it 10 times. I don't doubt it.  How many times has Obama done it? Did he get addicted? I don't know, and I didn't put that in the article. But it is something everyone should be concerned about. We don't say that he is secret a Muslim even though he might be because we can't prove it, but we do rightly mention that he went to an Islamic school, and the 57 Islamic states statement so people can decide for themselves. We should also prominently mention his drug use, so people know that he used to do drugs regularly, and they can decide for themselves if they think it did him any long term harm or if they think he still does and will continue to do so. It's a risk people need to know. It's much more important than his lies about his uncle. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 17:00, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Tim, I agree with putting it further down the page.  Right now the lead looks bad with all these criticisms.  I agree that it belongs in the article but I think we should make a seperate section for all of this or include it in the relevant sections already there.  We had the same thing on the McCain page.  A lead section full of little criticisms of mistakes in speeches until I removed it.  What do you think? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 16:12, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::I agree.  I think the lead should only include major biographical information.  Everything else belongs further down. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 16:16, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::If CP is going to be credible, then George W. Bush's admitted alcoholism needs to be added to that article, or the drug comments removed from this one.  Trustworthy means being consistent and fair. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 16:21, 13 June 2
 
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::::No one ever went to prison for being an alcoholic (a word that people use to describe conservatives who drink but rarely liberals). Obama's looking to get into the white house when he should be in the big house. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 16:25, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::Be careful what you say.  several of your comments have been thinly veiled claims that Obama is a drug addict.  You are very close to being blocked.  As for Bush, feel free to put anything in that you can find a reference for. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim]] <small>(CPAdmin1)</small><sup>[[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]]</sup>  <sup>[[User:CPAdmin1/Polls|Vote in my NEW polls]]</sup> 16:31, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Since you've decided... ==
 
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Since the powers that be have decided to include every single verbal folly (that means word mess-up for all you fancy non-elitist spawns of NON-doctor crazy women who like rape) that Mr. Obama has made, I suggest we include in the page for George W. Bush, that he falsely claimed that OBGYN's all sleep with their patients, childrens are learning, that IRAQ was a good idea, that people in a hundred thousand years will look back and say "Gee, bombing the crap out of a country for no specific reason then sending thousands of troops to die because he liked war was the best idea ever. Lets give him a medal, and every other mess-up that Bush, Sir Quail Hunter, Dan Quayle, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and every other human being who has ever, ever in their life, made a mess mistake is speaking, then connect it to conspiracy theories. Like, for instance when Bush said "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family"....HE’S A CANNIBAL!!!!!. And, when the over lord of all of Conservapedia once said "See if you can learn out to spell "superior"....He is a Satanist because the Satanists have a code word which replaces how with out in a condescending tone of voice which means "I hate Jesus". I tried to be a good boy. I tried to do something interesting, then I realized, you can't. Not here. Because the evil commie overlords will always keep you in the dark, tell you to shut up, and hypocrite their way to the top. Reagan did it, Bush I did it, Bush II did it.....and Andy did it. It is amazing that we don't go on merit in this world. We go on who gets up one morning and says, you know what....I don't like them. Sure they are peaceful and aren't bothering me, but they don't quite believe what I believe. I like Jesus, they like Mohammed Ali or some other boxer, so I'm gonna blow their heads up. And tell the people its for their own good, that those evil non Jesus fanatics hate us. Well guess what. Everybody hates americans, for good reason. We are a 231 year old country that thinks we own everything, know better than everybody and have the right to blow you up, all in the name of Jesus, Cash, and the third god, National Frickin Pride. Ban me, and remove the vile stench of idiocy and intolerance from me.
 
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The (hopefully) Gone,
 
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JMarks.
 
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bravo
 
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==Political Views==
 
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My quote below keeps getting (citation needed) put after it. I am glad to site this except I think yellow belly liberals are messing with me. Since when do we need to citations for 'often refers' or 'frequently refuses'? Common, every week occurances don't need citations.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 20:53, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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quote
 
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Senator Obama often refers to the office that he seeks, without the proper respect of those that came before him. When talking of the President, he frequently refuses to call him President Bush or even Mr. George Bush. Obama disrespectfully calls him just 'George Bush'.
 
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There needs to be a citation, because you can't just say that he does something without proof. Also, when the article says he has 'no executive experience', what does that refer to? Executive as in 'Presidential'? [[WillD]]
 
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OK. I'll make the necessary citations--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 14:19, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Christians==
 
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Any reason why he doesn't belong in this category? [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 07:44, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Obama has left his church, and there is substantial skepticism about what he really believes as opposed to merely posturing for political gain.  Most Christians do not take the political positions that Obama has taken, such as his support for [[abortion]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:48, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Not being affiliated with a Church does not mean a person is not a Christian, a majority of Christians (at least here in Australia) do not attend Church regularly and have no membership with a religious organisation. Same with the second point, just because Christians disagree with someone it does not remove their faith. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 07:50, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: As often occurs here, detractors like yourself insist on the possibility of an exception rather than accepting a general rule.  Obama doesn't simply disagree with "someone", he disagrees with the vast majority of Christians about [[abortion]].  Also, he never changed his Muslim name, while most Christians would upon any real conversion, just as Christians change to Muslim names when the conversion is in the opposite direction (e.g., Cassius Clay -> Muhammad Ali).  So numerous indications weight against insisting that Obama must be a Christian.  Conservapedia is not fooled by political expedience that can distort the truth.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:04, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::I would have no problem with Obama being excluded from this category if there were consistency in how it is used, but it seems there isn't. I believe we've never had a non-Christian president, yet several are not in that category (apparently more Democrats than Republicans, which isn't surprising, but excluding George W Bush and Reagan, which is). There are many liberal Christians, so I don't see political position being the deciding factor. As for his name, well, how many people change their name upon conversion to Christianity? (You mention Saul, but are there examples from the past 1900 years to back up your case?) In fact, changing one's name seems to be a Muslim trait (Muhammad Ali, Malcolm X, Yusef Islam aka Cat Stevens). And is his name a Muslim name, or just a foreign one? Is Fugimori a "Shinto Name"? What is the criteria for being Christian enough to be in the category? [[User:Jaguar|Jaguar]] 22:39, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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===Christians and Abortion===
 
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[http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm Here are some poll results about Americans and abortion]. [http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index.cfm?newsid=19771020&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=8 Here are some poll results specific to Americans who self-identify as Christians]. [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 17:59, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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===Why Wouldn't he Change his Name?===
 
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If he were trying to fake his Christianity, he would certainly change his name '''unless the name "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr." had some meaning greater that his political ambition.''' How could we not conclude that the name is a reminder to him of his true loyalties? [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 20:26, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Why would he change his name?  Hussein is not by any means a Muslim name, but rather than Arabic name.  You're confusing race with religion here...  [[User:Dchall1|Dchall1]] 20:29, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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===Why WOULD he change his name?===
 
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The entire portion of the article that discusses this is ridiculous.  Why should a person change their name at all?  It's similar to saying that a person named Weinstein should change their name if they were a Christian, because "Weinstein" is a Jewish name.  This portion of the article has no purpose and should be removed.  If you want to show why Obama is a poor choice for president, do so.  But juvenile attacks like this just make the people doing it look silly.  [[User:Jparenti|Jparenti]] 11:56, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==57 states, again==
 
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Sorry to say, but that line just seems ignorant. At the time Obama left grade school in 1971, the OIC had 30 members. One of its members, Albania, was officially atheist, while Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Brunei, Mozambique and Suriname ''did not even exist'' as independent countries. (Bangladesh became independent in 1971, the year he left Indonesia, but in any case didn't join the OIC until 1974.) So the notion that he "learned in grade school" about "57 Islamic states" is absurd on its face. [[User:Btraven|Btraven]] 12:47, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: The article doesn't claim Obama learned about "57 Islamic states" in grade school.  It does make clear why Obama did not learn about "50 states" in grade school.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:53, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::1. He had from, say, 1965 to 1967, from 1971 to 2008, and for that matter from 1967 to 1971 to learn that the US has 50 states. In all likelihood we're talking about a slip of the tongue from someone who's made other gaffes (not unsurprising in a grueling primary fight with a loaded schedule and reporters recording his every word). Moreover, if you take the 50 states and add DC, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico and Democrats Abroad - all of which had nominating contests - you get to 56.
 
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::2. Even if his remark has some significance (which it doesn't), a serious biography doesn't mention, in its lead section, a remark barely noticed by anyone. You talk about his background, his education, his accomplishments (such as they are), the campaign - but don't veer into speculation on the basis of what is most likely a verbal slip. I don't like the man myself, but some pretense of objectivity should be kept when discussing him. [[User:Btraven|Btraven]] 14:07, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: It may be a slip of a tongue, just as a racist or other offensive remark can be.  But slips of the tongue can cry out for explanation, as this "57 states" slip does.  You can bet if any Republican candidate had a "slip of the tongue" that was racial in nature, then liberals would run him out of the contest.
 
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::: I've never heard any American say, as a slip of the tongue, that there are more than 50 states.  So Obama's remarks are significant and do cry out for explanation.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:12, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::Is it appropriate to list all the gaffes of George W. Bush or John McCain as well? He could've read the number fifty seven in something he read before the speech and just slipped up. Surely you've misspoke before? [[User:DannyRedful|DannyRedful]] 18:05, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: Your explanation is implausible.  Yes, of course, we all make mistakes.  Dan Quayle made one once, and [[liberals]] hounded him out of politics for it.  The point is not that Obama made a mistake, but why.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:08, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::"He read a piece of information" is a more implausible explanation for misspeaking than "He's a Muslim manchurian candidate who compromised his mission to take over the US and give it to the Muslims"? [[User:DannyRedful|DannyRedful]] 18:12, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Thats true but G.W.Bush once said he never stopped thinking of ways to harm his country. We dont wonder why he slipped there.
 
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[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:10, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Karl Rove has advised conservatives not to imply that Obama is connected to Islam because it might do more damage to McCain than Obama. I wonder if he might have a point. Christians, after all, did not demand that David Livingstone change his name when he went on a mission trip to Africa. A name is something personal and I would not change my name if I went abroad. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 20:48, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Does Conservapedia avoid telling the truth because it is politically incorrect? [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 21:38, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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this conversation is pointless, the idea of whether or not Obama is Islamic has been debated and settled by the media, the conservatives, everyone, sometime ago. Lets do some work not debating about a moot point.
 
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[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 21:48, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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[http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/57states.asp Snopes takes apologist stance on Obama's ignorance of number of US states] [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 10:56, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Spot on-- This dirty Muslim clearly mixed up the number of states in the glorious USA with the number of non-observer states in an obscure organization! There is no WAY he could've misspoken, saying fifty-seven instead of fourty seven! [[User:EBrown|EBrown]] 18:51, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== More on changing his name ==
 
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I'm starting a new section because it's hard to know where to put this, given that this matter has been touched on a few places above.
 
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AdenJ earned a month-long block for removing the part of the following text that I've italicised:
 
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{{QuoteBox|Obama has declared himself to be a [[Christian]]'', yet never replaced his Muslim name with a Christian one as many do.<nowiki><ref></nowiki>For example, when Saul became a Christian, he changed his name to "Paul"; when the famous boxer Cassius Clay converted to [[Islam]], he took the Muslim name of [[Muhammad Ali]].<nowiki></ref></nowiki>''}}
 
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I don't consider the lack of a name change to be of much significance, and the supporting reason in the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tags don't hold up or support the point.
 
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* The evidence seems to be that Saul ''didn't'' change his name to Paul when he became a Christian.[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=XOH_jfr5jSYC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=how+saul+became+paul&source=web&ots=Sf3Ox9lJfT&sig=u4VhlygigMQPFiMnzPkuk5hd_mw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA2,M1][http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99746.qna/category/nt/page/questions/site/iiim][http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/p/paul.html].
 
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** Rather, he already had both Jewish (Saul) and Roman (Paul) names
 
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** Although it seems that he changed to favouring the Roman one, this was not done at conversion
 
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** There's apparently no good evidence that it was because of his conversion.
 
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** "Paul" being a ''Roman'' name, you can't argue that he changed his name to a ''Christian'' name anyway.
 
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* The text says "as many do", which is an implicit admission that not all do, so an individual not doing so means little.
 
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* Evidence of a "Christian" changing his name upon conversion to Islam is ''not'' evidence that people with Muslim names normally change their name to a Christian one.
 
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So the supporting evidence doesn't support the claim, the claim is questionable, it's removal was justifiable, and AdenJ's block, to the extent that it was due to this edit, was not warranted.  And as for it being his ninth block, at least some of the earlier eight do not appear to have been warranted.
 
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[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:37, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: There were additional reasons for AdenJ's block, including numerous prior blocks by many other Sysops, [[last wordism]] on my talk page after being warned, and what I considered to be deception in his claims about partnerships/marriage in New Zealand ([[Talk:Essay:Marry a Conservative]]).
 
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: AdenJ's outright deletion of the name issue without improving it was simply censorship.  Philip, you've identified some room for improvement in the entry and those are always welcome.  Censorship is not.  If someone keeps a Muslim name and, with obviously [[political benefits]], claims to be a Christian, or vice-versa, the name is plainly reason to be skeptical about the self-serving political claim.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:43, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: I've already answered the point about his other blocks, which were by ''three'' other sysops, hardly "''many'' other Sysops".  I see no sign of ''deception'' on that talk page.  The only fault I can see is in implying a generalisation based on anecdotal evidence.  As for his "last wordism", he had made a total of ''one'' prior post in that conversation, and his final post was merely trying to explain himself, not continue that particular discussion.  It's hardly a good case of "last wordism".  Sometimes outright deletion ''is'' improvement, and hardly constitutes censorship unless, perhaps, the deletion is enforced, which he was and is unable to do.  As for it being "plainly a reason", I've already provided reasons why, at the very least, it is not ''plain'', and likely not even a reason.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:05, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::A small point here, as it's been brought up many times.  Muhammed Ali did ''not'' change his name because of his conversion to Islam.  He changed his name because Cassius Clay was a "slave name."  In other words, his name was a continuation of a name given to an ancestor when his family was enslaved.  His name changing was simply part of a larger trend going on in that time period.  I won't disagree that what he changed to wasn't religiously motivated, but the change itself was to free himself of what he considered to be a denigrating name, not because of his religious conversion. '''[[user:JDavidson|<font color="#000085" >JDavidson</font>]]'''[[User_talk:JDavidson|<font color="#660099"><sup>'''Leave a message ::BEEP::'''</sup></font>]] 15:28, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: You'll have to explain thousands, or millions, of similar name changes if you are unwilling to acknowledge that a fundamental change in belief does cause most to change their name away from what they reject.  To take another high-profile example, Robert Earl Moore changed his name to Ahmad Rashād.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:42, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: Thousands or millions? [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 16:10, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Well, it is common when people convert ''to'' Islam (it might be a specific tenet of Islam), but is it to religions other than Islam, or is it just a requirement for Muslims? Does anybody with more knowledge of Islam know? It doesn't seem to be common when people convert to Christianity, so that might explain it. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 16:12, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::It is a requirement for Muslims.  Christianity has no similar requirement. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:36, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: Some Christian churches do require it.  In fact, I think the largest does.  Moreover, nearly all evangelical Christians would be uncomfortable keeping a Muslim name.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:39, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: What church are you referring to?  And is it a formal requirement, or just a convention?  If the former, can you point me to the requirement?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:11, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: I think most, perhaps all, churches that authorize [[baptism]] require a Christian name for it.  For example, I think the Catholic Church requires a Christian name for baptism.  I would expect the Anglican Church to require likewise, and expect that virtually all evangelicals reject continued use of a Muslim name at baptism.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:17, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::An interesting point. However, that brings up some questions. Is this true of Obama's church? And what exactly is meant by a "Christian name"? In some usage it is a synonym for a first name, which he obviously has. "Barack" is a derivative of "Baruch" an apocryphal Biblical name preceding the foundation of Islam by over a thousand years. I admit I don't know much out baptismal names, but do they have to be "Christian" in the sense that they appear in the New Testament? When someone baptizes their child with one of those trendy new names like "Dakota" or "MacKenzie" do they have separate baptismal names, and if so, do they ever actually use them? If "Bruce" converts in his adulthood and is baptized, does he take a new more distictly Christian name that he then uses regularly? There has been a bit of a backlash recently against changing names, as a response to having "American" names forced upon  immigrants at Ellis Island in years past. And I'm still not sure his name is "Islamic" so much as foreign. It's not as if his name is "Barack Muhammad Allah Akbar Hijra Abu Bakr" or anything. [[User:Jaguar|Jaguar]] 11:42, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Obama is not an evangelical, however, nor is he answerable to evangelical conventions. --[[User:IlTrovatore|IlTrovatore]] 16:43, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Your comment begs the question of what Obama really believes.  There's precious little objective evidence that he's a Christian, and much to suggest otherwise.  His politically self-serving claim that his Muslim father was a "confirmed atheist" has less than a 1% chance of being true, and that implausibility casts doubt over Obama's other religious claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:53, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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If you have trouble believing that he is actually a Christian, then why would you have trouble believing that he is not an evangelical? Also, what evidence are you referring to that he is not really a Christian? Does this have something to do with the "Freudian slip" that no "real" American could possibly have ever made regarding the number of states in the Union?
 
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As for the prevalence of atheism in Kenya, is it not possible that many people deny being atheists because of anxieties regarding cultural perceptions of atheism? --[[User:IlTrovatore|IlTrovatore]] 16:57, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Is it really surprising anyone that CP has hopped on the right-wing "Obama is a secret Muslim" bandwagon? --<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AutoFire|<font color= 'black' face= 'OCR A Extended'>trans</font>]]</sub>[[User:AutoFire|<font color= 'red' face= 'OCR A Extended'>Resident Transfan</font>]]<sup>[[User Talk:AutoFire|<font color= 'black' face= 'OCR A Extended'>form!</font>]]</sup> 16:59, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Well, I'm not so sure that it's a secret. The evidence may not be perfect, but it is evidence nonetheless. I think he protests too much. --[[User:AdmiralNelson|AdmiralNelson]] 17:12, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Is it really surprising that liberals believe Obama's implausible myth that he is a committed Christian? His own brother says he was a Muslim, and there is precious little evidence he ever gave it up. He's been caught in a blatant lie about his past beliefs, there's less than a 1% chance he's telling the truth about his father's beliefs, and less than 1% of Muslims convert to Christianity, so there's a less than .01% chance he's been telling the truth about him and his father. But, of course, for people who believe we evolved from monkeys when even if it were possible would be a trillions to one chance, .01% seems probable. People should go to Wikipedia if they want a glowing article on Obama that he could have written himself. We're interested in the ''truth'' here. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 17:15, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Response to an earlier post:Mr. Schlafly, My comment had nothing to do with debating whether or not all muslims change their names. I was simply stating that Ali's change was not for religious reasons, it was for slavery/cultural reasons '''[[user:JDavidson|<font color="#000085" >JDavidson</font>]]'''[[User_talk:JDavidson|<font color="#660099"><sup>'''Leave a message ::BEEP::'''</sup></font>]] 19:11, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Ya know what? Now that I think of it, why should it matter what religion he follows? Do people think that there is something inherently wrong with Muslims that makes them unfit for public office? --<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AutoFire|<font color= 'black' face= 'OCR A Extended'>trans</font>]]</sub>[[User:AutoFire|<font color= 'red' face= 'OCR A Extended'>Resident Transfan</font>]]<sup>[[User Talk:AutoFire|<font color= 'black' face= 'OCR A Extended'>form!</font>]]</sup> 19:40, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Yes, there is a problem with the religion he follows. Christians don't kill people, but Muslims kill lots of people all the time. THAT is why it is important.--[[User:AdmiralNelson|AdmiralNelson]] 19:57, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Actually, it goes like this: ''Moderate'' Christians and Muslims don't kill people. ''Radical'' Christians and Muslims do kill people. --<sub>[[Special:Contributions/AutoFire|<font color= 'black' face= 'OCR A Extended'>trans</font>]]</sub>[[User:AutoFire|<font color= 'red' face= 'OCR A Extended'>Resident Transfan</font>]]<sup>[[User Talk:AutoFire|<font color= 'black' face= 'OCR A Extended'>form!</font>]]</sup> 21:09, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: If that's true, then there must be relatively few radical Christians, and relatively many radical Muslims, as the latter do a lot more killing than the former.  But disagreeing with AdmiralNelson's specific reason, because it doesn't follow that a particular individual is going to be killing just because he's a Muslim, the reason that the religion of a president is important is because a worldview/religion is what shapes one's values and standards, and these ''will'' affect decisions that he will make.  So the religion of a president is a very relevant matter to voters.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:11, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::"Christians don't kill people"? Last I checked, the military was full of Christians, often evangelical. Killing people is a big part of what they do, is it not? Sure you don't want to modify that statement? [[User:Jaguar|Jaguar]] 08:12, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: The discussion was clearly about people doing it ''because they were Christian'' or Muslim, so we weren't talking about self-defence, wars, or legal executions.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:51, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::: If you're implying that radical Muslims kill more often than radical Christians, you're suffering from media/selection bias. Groups like the Army of God and the KKK pridefully kill in the name of Christianity.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 10:00, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::: No, I'm suffering from truth bias.  The KKK is hardly Christian, and the Army of God is an exception to the rule.  Besides, how many have those groups killed compared to Muslim killings?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:36, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::: According to the [http://www.kukluxklan.bz/faq.html KKK FAQ] (on requirements to join):
 
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:::::::#You must be be a free white male or female of European descent, at least 18 years of age.
 
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:::::::#You must be able to profess faith in Jesus Christ as personal Savior.
 
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:::::::It's unfortunate, but yes, they are Christian extremists.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 10:44, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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(unindent) For me, part of what I look into is what do the texts of the religion say, in this case the Bible and the Koran, with the Koran also having follow up material compiled in the same time period that is revered by Islam as well.  I've found it's not a coincidence that extremism is common to Islam as it is much easier to follow based on the writings themselves.  In Christianity, it is far more difficult, and so the 'extremists' generally have to bend reality.  Where in the Bible does it talk about the need to be a white European as if that is somehow associated with Jesus? [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 18:45, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Spot on, Learn together.  Anybody can ''call themselves'' "Christian", but that doesn't necessarily make it so.  Therefore you need to look at whether their actions and beliefs are consistent with what the Bible teaches.  The KKK doesn't qualify.  The KKK does not have the support of most of the Christian community.  In contrast, I've often noticed tacit if not explicit support for Muslim "extremists" by large sections of the Muslim population.  If the rest of the Muslim population condemned the actions of the "extremists", I'd be happy to say that Islam doesn't do much killing either (only people ''calling themselves'' "Muslim"), but that appears to not be the case  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:14, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Saul didn't change his name to Paul.  At one point Luke says, "Saul, who was also called Paul..." and carries the account on from there.  This occurs several chapters after his conversion, and it is simply a Greek form of Saul's Hebrew name.  For heaven's sake.  [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 16:05, 24 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Muslims that kept Semitic or Islamic names ==
 
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[http://www.hesavedme.com/story.htm Hussain Andaryas] kept his semitic name, as did [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1918728/The-Rt-Rev-Hassan-Dehqani-Tafti.html the Rt Rev Hassan Dehqani-Tafti], [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CExvHJxJnY this convert (who kept the name "Mohammed")], and [http://www.farsinet.com/dibaj/ the Christian martyr Mehdi Dibaj]. [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 19:09, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Is it possible these people were baptized with Christian names, but chose not to use them as their everyday names? I know Jews often do something similar. [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 10:06, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Islam==
 
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Please upload the picture at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ObamaDrudge.jpg --<span style="margin-top: -3px;">&nbsp;[[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]]</span><span style="position:relative; overflow:hidden; width:88px; height:15px; z-index:2;"> [[User:Deborah|Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|<font color="gray">(contributions)</font>]] [[User_talk:Deborah|<font color="darkslategray">(talk)</font>]]</span> 15:52, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==He's Gay Too==
 
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Since we're largely using the interview of one person to show that Obama is Islamic, perhaps we should add that [http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-election/i-had-sex-with-obama/2008/06/19/1213770824274.html he's gay] as well. I'm sure there are some slips of the tongue that will support it as well. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 20:48, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:A couple of our usual sources agree, the evidence is mounting: [http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2008/03/02/obama_americas_first_gay_president][http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-gurvitz/rnc-obama-busted-in-gay_b_87221.html] [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 21:33, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::From what I read, it's nothing beyond an allegation.  Until absolute, irrefutable proof shows up, we cannot state that he is gay...because if he is not, then it's libel.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:54, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Then report on the allegation, there is more than enough evidence to warrant its inclusion in the article, and opens the possibility of an alterior motive behind Obama's support for gay marriage. [[User:StatsMsn|StatsMsn]] 22:03, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: So, Karajou, on that basis we should also not claim that he's not a Christian, until "absolute, irrefutable proof shows up"?  I'm glad you agree.  So would you mind removing that part that questions his Christianity?  Thanks.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:56, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::My statement here had to do with allegations that he was gay, '''NOT''' about his Christianity.  Don't you ever put words in my mouth again.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 10:33, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: I know that your statement was about homosexuality.  But you were rejecting putting that in the article on the basis of a ''principle'', so I merely applied ''your <s>principal</s>principle'' to a different case.  Or is there some reason that different principles apply in the different cases?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:39, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::That's ''your conversation'' and ''your principle''.  Deal with it.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 10:43, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::: Apart from the typo, that was ''your'' principle (although I basically agree with it).  You didn't explain why the same principle doesn't apply in the other case.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:05, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::These accusations should be in the article. We won't say he is gay, just that a credible source has publicly accused him of it, and he makes a convincing case. People deserve to know that if they vote for Obama, there is a chance they are voting for a homo. We're not making anything up here. It's reliably sourced. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 08:44, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::Tony, "sourced" and "reliably sourced" are not the same thing.  I can put up a webpage that says John McCain is gay, and then post it here and say it's "sourced".  Does that mean it is reliable or in any way accurate?  Absolutely not.  The Townhall article states that he would be the first "gay" president, and compare it to Clinton being the first "black" president.  They're not saying he's gay, but rather that he will fight for gay rights.  The second article, from Huffington Post, repeats conservative smears that a picture showing Obama greeting another male is a sign that he's "gay".  I've greeted many friends and co-workers in the same manner as the photo portrays, and I'm sure many on this site have made the same greeting as well, without being labeled gay.  It's the most flimsy accusation I've ever seen.  Just because it's on the Internet doesn't make it true.  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 10:20, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::::Read the ''first'' article: "Larry Sinclair, a gay man from Minnesota who alleges he snorted cocaine and had sex with the Democratic nominee." This is a man giving a first hand account of a homosexual experience with Obama. We have absolutely no reason to believe that he is making it up. The liberal media is eager to smear Larry Craig as gay merely because an overzealous cop decided tapping his foot was the same as propositioning someone for sex. But someone, damaging his own reputation, admits he had a sexual relationship with Obama and there's a huge whitewash. We don't have to say the accusation is true (though it would explain a lot) but it is a disservice to ignore it. [[User:TonyT|TonyT]] 12:33, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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The Huffington Post was a piece of satire!  The RNC never said that at all, the picture is actually of Barack Obama giving a hug to John Edwards, and it was made grainy on purpose as part of the joke.  --[[User:Tordenvaer|Tordenvaer]] 10:30, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Thanks!  It looked so ridiculous, but couldn't see someplace where they stated it was just a joke.  I wouldn't put it past the RNC to stoop that low, though, so I had to at least consider that it may be real.  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 10:44, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Actually Tony, there are some good reasons to seriously doubt Larry Sinclair's story.  Starting with him failing the polygraph test and his '27-year criminal career which includes convictions for fraud, forging cheques, and stealing credit card numbers'. Then add in his arrest for an outstanding warrant after his press conference and he does not come across as the most credible of sources. There are enough actual problems with Obama that the American people should be focusing on and not getting side tracked by gossip.  --[[User:Tordenvaer|Tordenvaer]] 12:54, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Like the problem of him quite possibly being Muslim or strongly influenced by Islam? That would certainly be an actual problem - hence its inclusion in this article. Do you not think Obama being gay would be an actual problem as well, and lead to a strong pro-homosexuality bias? Anyway, I basically agree with StatsMsn on this matter - and as with the Muslim issue, tthere are sources, and we're not making statements, only relaying the words of others on this controversy. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 15:24, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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The problem with the whole gay thing is that the only source for that is VERY non-credible (Larry Sinclair).  The Townhall article wasn't postulating that Obama is in fact a homosexual, but would be the first 'gay' President like Clinton was said to be the first 'black' President, as someone who is believed to strongly advocate for that community and is very much accepted by that community WITHOUT actually being a member.  The Huffington Post was a bit of satire and not a serious article.  I think that how Islam has influenced Obama is a legitimate topic and should be discussed but by engaging in gossip (Obama is gay) it takes away from the legitimacy of actual concerns that may (and should) be expressed about him.  --[[User:Tordenvaer|Tordenvaer]] 16:41, June 21 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Unlock For Update==
 
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In Senate section, this needs to be included in the GI Bill or the following sentence needs removed. ''"Taxes of those earning... for ten years."''
 
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''Add-'' Democrats dropped a provision to pay for the GI college benefits by imposing a half-percentage point income tax surcharge on incomes exceeding $500,000 for singles and incomes over $1 million earned by married couples<ref>[http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hj7bLU_VVjrxBnHiIQbBEZqK4FhAD91CQGPO1], http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hj7bLU_VVjrxBnHiIQbBEZqK4FhAD91CQGPO1 , AP Bipartisan accord reached on war funding bill, June 19, 2008</ref>--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 14:01, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Under Published criticism, A fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution. Dobson Accuses Obama of 'Distorting' Bible <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/rel_dobson_obama/2008/06/23/106961.html] , http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/rel_dobson_obama/2008/06/23/106961.html, June 23, 2008</ref>
 
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==Religious affiliations==
 
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These include the statements "God ....". I am starting to have seconds thoughts about seeing this posted here. It is just such an outlandish amount of disrespect to God, that maybe it shouldn't be repeated, thoughts(name in Vein)?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 14:01, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Examples of "non-charisma" ==
 
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I saw this in the encyclopedia page ("Barack Obama is often praised for his speeches, except when he is not able to read them from a teleprompter. 'Shorn of his Teleprompter, we saw a different Obama. His delivery was halting and unsure. ... The prepared text for his remarks, as released on his website, sounded a lot like a typical Obama speech. ... [But with] no Teleprompter signaling the prepared text, Obama failed to deliver the speech in his characteristically flawless fashion.'[62] The New York Times noted that 'Mr. Obama excels at inspirational speeches read from a teleprompter before television cameras, critics have noted, but many of his other speeches on the campaign trail have failed to electrify.'[63] When Obama ridiculed Hillary Clinton for being like Annie Oakley, it is apparent that he was not writing his own speeches.[64]") and was wonderng if someone could direct me to a audio file or website that has an example of one of his bad speeches
 
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--[[User:Thedude|Thedude]] 20:05, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Speculation vs Fact ==
 
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I'm still relatively new here but would like to clarify something (at the risk of beating a dead horse).  For the paragraph "Obama wore an American flag lapel pin after 9/11, but later stopped wearing it without adequate explanation. Presumably it would have hurt him with anti-military campaign donors." should "presumably" be allowed in the article?  It seems that the statement becomes speculation rather than an established fact.  Also the citation attached to it does not make that claim either.
 
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I don't have the rights to do an edit to the main article so I'm writing it here.  Hope it doesn't count against my 90/10 thing.--[[User:Sentri|Sentri]] 11:41, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Oh and on an unrelated note, there's a space missing in "thePennsylvania".--[[User:Sentri|Sentri]] 11:43, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I'm being anal here but the following need minor corrections<br />
 
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"president of the United States" - Capitalization<br />
 
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"office of the presidency" - should be "Office of the President"<br />
 
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"Obama often makes reference to his "two decades of experience" in public service work. During most of that time he claims experience, he was either going to school, working for a law firm, writing a book <s>and</s> ''or'' community organizing."--[[User:Sentri|Sentri]] 11:56, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: I don't see your typos there any more.  Were they fixed?
 
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: As to pointing out how Obama has catered to anti-military donors, that can hardly be disputed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:13, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Hard to be disputed when dispute is not allowed or called "violation of 90/10 rule; talk, talk, talk". --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 22:01, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:: Hmm I still see the typos after refreshing the page.  Specifically "thePennsylvania" is in paragraph 4, "president" in paragraph 2, "office..." in paragraph 7 under Presidential Campaign and "either/or" in the last paragraph under "Positions and Qualifications".
 
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:: Perhaps Obama's pandering is obvious, but the current phrasing of "presumably" indicates speculation.  But I guess the main concern I had was that the citation #15 isn't relevant to the statement since the main gist of the article is that Obama's actions have "frustrated some anti-war figures" rather than pandered to them.  And the action it refers to is his voting record and not his lapel pin.--[[User:Sentri|Sentri]] 23:13, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: Corrected "thePennsylvania", but don't see a lowercase "p" in "president" as an error.  The trend is towards using more lowercase, and the Economist uses a lowercase "p" for "president".
 
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::: The "presumably" point can hardly be disputed or doubted, and I don't agree with the proposition that "presumably" is never appropriate in an encyclopedia.  The citation is helpful because it shows that anti-military support was not guaranteed for Obama, and some pandering was required to obtain that.  Of course, improvements in citations are always welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:19, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Article Locked ==
 
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If the article is locked by a sysop, wouldn't that constitute [[last wordism]]?  Obviously only sysops can then decide what may or may not be put in the article, becoming the final arbiters on any discussions.  It doesn't seem very egalitarian.  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 12:20, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Wow ==
 
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Take a look at this [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=363195 article's last edit] before he won the Iowa caucus and compare it to the coat rack of half-truths and insinuations that it has become. It saddens me; I was hoping that Conservapedia would develop into a worthy competitor to Wikipedia and that the competition would inspire both sites to improve their content. Alas.
 
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Unfortunately, this article now seems to be attempting to fulfill a political agenda instead of act as an encyclopedia. Of the myriad goals this article sets out to accomplish, the attempt to paint Obama as an anti-American secret Muslim is the most disgusting. Sure, he made a mistake and said 57 states. I look at that statement and think, "So he said fifty instead of forty." But instead of ignoring an obvious mistake and focusing on actual political issues, they assume his mind was wandering to the membership number of the Organization of Islamic States. That's not a remotely logical jump; perhaps a more reasonable one would be Interstate 57, which bisects his home state of Illinois? Personally, I just think the man was a tad tired - he was, after all, campaigning non-stop for six months straight.
 
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Furthermore, the Muslim misdirection seems to me to be a direct attempt to play on people's fears. People are afraid of what's different, so the goal is to make him as different as possible. Hillary tried the same tactic; she, with ten times his earnings, managed to convince Pennsylvania that a biracial man abandoned by his father and raised by a single mom was an "elitist". But it's not enough, so we stack on the Muslim accusations and criticize his foreign sounding name (which, in my opinion, is not as weird as "Millard Fillmore") just to drive the point home. It's disgusting that we use such tactics in what is supposed to be a democracy, where problems are solved by our collective wisdom and not by beating the opposition into submission.
 
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But perhaps most indicative of all, this article is also written from the approach of automatically assuming Obama to be a liar. He says his father was an atheist, but you assume he's lying. He finds Christ and goes to church (and what a church...) for years, but you call it "politically self-serving? ''Have we, as a nation, become so cynical and skeptical than we doubt one's conversion to Christ?''
 
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Now, one of two things will happen. One, you'll read what I wrote and maybe take some - not all - into consideration. You'll tone it down a bit and focus on substantiative criticism (since I hardly expect, and would be disappointed by, a full rewrite into a bright shiny happy piece about him) of Obama, such as his opposition to Petraeus' plans that are clearly working or his refusal to tap America's natural resources to relieve our pain at the pump. Or two, you'll see the five paragraphs I've written and ignore it as too long and do nothing, and the article will continue to be burdened by lies, accusations and insinuations, and if I'm not banned I'll still probably leave in disgust. I hope that we, as Americans, can come together to fix the more egregious errors and better our democracy through substantiative debate about the issues that we all hold so dear going into this critical election. Thank you for reading. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 17:20, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Well that article doesn't go so far as to mention his last name is similar to Osama.  Hussein in his middle name is Saddam Hussein's last name.  And Barack rhyms with Iraq. [[User:RobertBobkins|RobertBobkins]] 17:22, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Yes, but it's not so much the attacks as the nit picking nature of them- we've got calling a senior lectureship a professorship, saying 57 instead of 47, the fact that his uncle helped liberate a different concentration camp, the fact that he has no executive or military experience (I've been wondering about the executive part- is that refering to presidential experience?)... it all just seems a bit overplayed. [[WillD]]
 
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::I agree, nitpicking is a good way to look at it. The article has missed the forest for the trees and, to further our usage of cliches, is missing the broad strokes. Although the executive experience part I believe refers to never holding a position similar to President but on a lower level; i.e., he's never been a governor, a mayor, or any other such position.--[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 18:08, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: ''"article will continue to be burdened by lies, accusations and insinuations"'' Hmmm, if there wasn't references, you might have had a valid point.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 15:50, 24 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: It's the usage of sources and the presentation of them that is problematic. This article, instead of finding sources and writing an article based off of them, is making claims and then adding "sources" that loosely connect them. An example is the Kenyan father thing; he says his father was a Muslim-turned-atheist, but the article indicates that because less than 1% of Kenyans are atheists, it's impossible. You don't see the problem with that? Even ignoring that Obama himself says his father was an atheist (and who, despite being abandoned by him, knew him far better than any of us), it isn't possible Obama Sr. is one of those less than 1% of Kenyans?
 
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:::: And if that isn't enough, here's an interview by British newspaper The Guardian with [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/06/barackobama.uselections2008 one of Obama Sr.'s daughters by another mother], who says "His [Barack's] father was never a Muslim although he was born into a Muslim family with a Muslim name." That would be a proper source, if it weren't for the fact that it completely contradicts what's written. The Muslim insinuations should be removed. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 16:46, 24 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: The entry is factual.  Obama's self-serving claim that his father was an atheist has all the plausibility of anything else that occurs less than 1% of the time.  That Obama asserts that this was true before Obama could have possibly known (e.g., before Obama was born) only adds to implausibility of it.
 
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::::: By the way, your quote (also self-serving) by Obama's relative does not indicate that Obama Sr. was an atheist.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:30, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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She doesn't say he was an atheist, but she does say he was not a Muslim.  And I doubt that a woman who apparently has never left Kenya would have much to gain by lying about her father's religious beliefs.  [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 18:34, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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: But you missed the point, perhaps intentionally:  Obama claimed Obama Sr. was an atheist, a claim having an obvious effect of appeasing both atheists and Christians.  Too bad that it is so implausible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:39, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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== President experience ==
 
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Abraham Lincoln had 2 years in the house and 8 years in the state legislature.  JFK was 8 years in the senate and 6 years in the house.  Madison was 8 years in the house and 4 years in state legislature.  Hoover was 7.5 years in the cabinet - was never in the state legislature, governor, house, or senate.  Harrison was 6 years in the senate.  http://electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Info/experience.html goes into the various experience of various presidents.  --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 18:30, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
==James Dobson on Obama==
 
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James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, points out that Obama distorts the Holy Bible for his own political ends [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080624/ap_on_el_pr/rel_dobson_obama]--[[User:Goodman|Goodman]] 22:05, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
::James Dobson was apparently not listening closely to his speech.  Obama's point was that policy should be made by people who don't automatically use Christian principles alone to make decisions.  The reasons for policy decisions should be made accessible by people of all affiliations, not just Judeo-Christian ones.  Dobson is just angry because his name was mentioned in a speech by a liberal candidate.  [[User:Jparenti|Jparenti]] 12:19, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: Is it me or do liberals always need others to explain what they have said?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 19:04, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Islamic holidays==
 
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"However, clearly Obama would have taken days off of school in observance of Islamic holidays. ". What are we suggesting he should have done, in a country where the schools close for Islamic holidays? [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 22:31, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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For today, he should enlighten us all to his past. He refuses to give us much detail. When you are running for the highest office in the land, nothing can be hidden. Did he go home and watch TV during his days off? Maybe he celebrated the Holidays by attending a Mosque. What we don't know he can easily cast aside by explaining. He grew up in a predominate Muslim country. He left a Christian school after two years. The rest has yet to be explained.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 23:26, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 
−
::Because you don't know something you think it has to be explained? Would you like to describe for us what you did on every holiday you took off school? Maybe you spent them attending meetings of the Communist party? "What we don't know he can easily cast aside by explaining." [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 12:00, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:What difference does it make what he did? You would think we'd be better off focusing on his foreign and energy policies than pondering what he did with his free time when he was 10. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 16:26, 24 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I would focus on his foreign and energy policy, if he had one! The little he has accomplished, I disagree with completely.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 21:23, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Didn't want you to hurt yourself with actually, you know, looking, so here you go, Jpatt: [http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy/ Foreign Policy] and [http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/ Energy Policy] --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 21:25, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
: yawn, much talk but nothing of logic--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 02:16, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Affirmative Action?==
 
−
The line "If elected, Obama would be the first Affirmative Action President" should be replaced with "If elected, Obama would be the first African-American Affirmative Action President." By Conservapedia's definition, many white male Presidents did benefit from their "race or gender", and qualify as Affirmative Action Presidents.
 
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:  Agreed.  By Conservapedia's definition of "Affirmative Action President," George Washington was the first Affirmative Action president.
 
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: I think the main problem is not the phrasing of the claim but rather the claim itself. Not only does it insinuate that Obama has done absolutely nothing noteworthy in his entire life, but it is also inherently racist. I'm a conservative and will be voting for John McCain, but I really don't think he'd approve of this either. This website seems to approach politics like it's some kind of all-out war in which you should do anything, from lie to slander to smear to win. That's just wrong. This article, this Obama article, is giving us conservatives a bad name. If Obama loses this election, it should be on his policies and ideas, not because someone told everyone he was a Muslim.
 
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−
==Barack Obama Visits Wounded War Veterans== 
 
−
Barack Obama makes a surprise visit to wounded war veterans at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/politics/obama_veterans/2008/06/28/108211.html], http://www.newsmax.com/politics/obama_veterans/2008/06/28/108211.html ,AP Barack Visits Wounded Vets, June 28, 2008  </ref> The visit wasn't on his public schedule.
 
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In the past, Obama criticized the Bush administration for veterans treatment returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Since becoming a US Senator, it has taken Obama more than 1270 days or three and a half years to visit our countries finest wounder soldiers in Washington, D.C.
 
−
:I assume you specifically mean the ones at Walter Reed, since he's visited [http://www.newsmax.com/politics/obama_veterans/2008/06/28/108211.html other] veterans in the past. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 21:53, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Place of birth==
 
−
Last week on talk radio (the Shaun Hannity program I think) they raised the issue of where Barack Obama was born. Apparently, his campaign cannot produce a birth certificate. If he was not born in the United States, he cannot be the President. That is in the Constitution--[[User:Hurst|Hurst]] 13:08, 29 June 2008 (EDT).
 
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:Technically they produced an image of his [http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert birth certificate].  Sean Hannity and Right-Wing blogs question its authenticity.  This feeds into the "He's a foreigner! Scary!" meme.  If you don't think he's a citizen and isn't eligible to be President, telling CP probably won't do much.  Instead, I'd suggest you contact the appropriate federal agency and tell them.  Although, since elections are technically handled state-by-state, you will probably need to contact the Secretary of State for each state and file your complaint. Would you like help locating those agencies to check into your allegations?  Of course, one should be mindful, as I wonder whether this type of accusation would be considered "libel".--[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 13:29, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
::He should be required to produce an authentic certificate, issued by the state of Hawaii.  As for libel, that is simply a liberal scare tactic. Truth is a perfect defense against libel. After all, you don't see Richard Lenski trying to sue Andy Schlafly do you? That's because he knows that Andy's doubts about his research are true.--[[User:Hurst|Hurst]] 13:55, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
:: Who should he be required to produce it to for verification?  Again, if you think that he isn't constitutionally qualified, the onus falls on YOU to request that he provide verification.  The requests should be sent to the Secretaries of State, as they are the ones who are in charge of elections in each state.  So if you believe it so firmly, do something about it.  Don't sit here and complain, go out and force it.  Or are you going to just grumble about it and make accusations without following up?  And as for Lenski suing Schlafly--I don't think CP's questions have done any "harm" to Lenski's reputation and the time of going through and filing a lawsuit for libel?  You'd be up in arms claiming it was a waste of the court's time to hear that case.  Seems if Lenski doesn't file a lawsuit you'll say it's because he knows he's wrong, and if he does file a lawsuit, you'll say it's a waste of time.  So that example doesn't really hold any water, in my book. --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 14:45, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
−
:::That's a good point. I'll add it to [[Lenski]]'s page. [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 14:30, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: Well when you get a job with the government (Senator falls in this category) you have to give the US Government your birth certificate. If it was false something would have come up earlier. If it is good enough for the US Government it should be good enough for everybody else.
 
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−
::::: "If it is good enough for the US Government it should be good enough for everybody else."  I'm afraid you may be on the wrong site, my friend.  We tell the truth here regardless of what other people may or may not accept. 
 
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::::: The standards for confirming legal status for a government employee are not, obviously, as high as the standards for ensuring compliance with the U.S. Constitution by a potential U.S. President.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:44, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::What evidence would be acceptable proof of his being born in the US? I'm fairly certain that I could find such evidence, if I knew what would be considered valid. [[User:Ithig|Ithig]] 17:12, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Here is a link to a story regarding the birth certificate story. Obama may be in trouble if the Republicans have the gumption to pursue this.[http://americatalks.blogspot.com/2008/06/birth-certificate-could-doom-obama.html]--[[User:Hurst|Hurst]] 08:48, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: The US Government would know where Obama was born. I think they would've spoken out and say "hey wait a minute" at some point in the past year and a half he's been running this campaign.
 
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::::World Net Daily and The National Review (both trusted Conservapedia sources) acknowledge the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate and consider it a non-issue.
 
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http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66991
 
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http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVjN2I1MjlhM2ZjZjRjYzBkODAxZjZkZGQyYWNkMDk=
 
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−
Could some sysop please delete the word "alledged" from the birth information?  I would do it myself (and do a productive edit) but the page is locked. [[User:MAnderson|MAnderson]] 14:42, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::Why hasn't anyone made this change?  It is absolutely clear that even trusted conservative sources don't think that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii.  Continuing to suggest otherwise is just a infantile smeer.  Isn't any sysop gutsy (or fair) enough to make the change? [[User:MAnderson|MAnderson]] 22:48, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
== Death Knell for Affirmative Action? ==
 
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−
Interesting article related to the opinion that Obama is an affirmative action candidate.  It says that, in actuality, Obama proves [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/28/affirmative-action-hurt-by-obamas-success/ there's no need for affirmative action].  "Barack Obama's political success might claim an unintended victim: affirmative action, a much-debated policy he supports.
 
−
Already weakened by several court rulings and state referendums, affirmative action now confronts a challenge to its very reason for existing. If Americans make a black person the leading contender
 
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for president, as nationwide polls suggest, how can racial prejudice be so prevalent and potent that it justifies special efforts to place minorities in coveted jobs and schools?"  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 13:51, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
== List of Obama VP's refusing to take the number 2 job==
 
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* Ted Strickland (D) Governor of Ohio
 
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* Jim Webb (D) Senator of Virginia
 
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* Jack Reed (D) Senator of Rhode Island
 
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* Claire McCaskill (D) Senator Missouri
 
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* John Edwards (D) Frm. Senator N. Carolina
 
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−
==Employment while a student==
 
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−
Does two summer jobs in six years at university count as "working your way through"? Even liberal Newsweek calls this [http://www.newsweek.com/id/144336 a bit of a stretch]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:48, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
That section should be revised , it currently says that Obama 'apparently did not hold any jobs during college or law school'.  Wouldn't something along the lines of 'however his campaign can only provide information of two jobs held during those years' be more accurate?  [[User:tordenvaer|tordenvaer]] 16:59, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Double up==
 
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Hi,
 
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This page is locked so I cant fix it but the whole intro is repeated under the section Published Criticism? Can someone fix?
 
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Thanks!
 
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[[User:JJacob|JJacob]] 01:39, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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==Flip-flopping==
 
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Can we include a section that specifically talks about his changes in policy positions (AKA flip-flops).  This will help to accurately portray him in terms of what he is willing to do to win an election.
 
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== Allegedly?!?!?! ==
 
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Is there any real reason to believe he wasn't born in Honolulu?[[User:Truthmonger|Truthmonger]] 19:11, 29 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Why can't I add link to his voting record? ==
 
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See http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490
 
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Why can't I edit this article and add his voting record information? What is controversial about this? I am reticent to say anything because of the 90-10 rule thing. --[[User:AdmiralNelson|AdmiralNelson]] 14:08, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 
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== McCain vs. Obama ==
 
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−
Based on the obvious bias towards McCain shown in the difference between the two articles, why not just SAY that Conservapedia endorses McCain? Both men have flaws; if you lead with the flaws in the Obama article, and suppress McCain's flaws due to bias, how is this an encyclopedia and how is it "trustworthy?" Yes, I am a liberal, but I may vote for McCain based on experience, but until the election, it would be nice to see unbiased versions of the articles. Yesaliberal 10:16, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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We are keeping the McCain article as unbiased as possible as a stand-alone piece. Learn together 12:25, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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And the Obama article? --Jareddr 12:26, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Should be discussed on the Obama page. We do the best we can with the John McCain article on this, the John McCain page. Learn together 12:34, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Yes, but the original question pertained to both the McCain and Obama article. You only answered about the McCain article, and quite clearly stated about keeping it as unbiased as possible. You have the ability to give an answer to me about the Obama article here, but specifically chose not to relate it to the question, but instead said take it elsewhere. Since the original question pertained to both, I hope that you will answer both---or let me know and I'll post it on the Obama talk page and you can answer it there instead. --Jareddr 12:38, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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This is the McCain article. I answer questions on John McCain and how to make this article the best it can be. Feel free to post the question on Obama's talk page since, ostensibly, that is the article where you have the most concerns. As I no longer frequent that article, you will not receive a reply from me. Learn together 12:58, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Retrieved from "http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:John_McCain"
 
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==Fake image==
 
−
That image of Obama during the pledge is a terrible photoshop job. Look at the bottom of the flag. The last red stripe kind of bends into nowhere, not to mention that the people look way too small according to the distance. Someone please remove this cheap trick. [[User:Jedibob5|Jedibob5]] 11:26, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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==General Things==
 
−
Jedibob, the photo isn't a photoshop.  The stripe that "bends into nowhere" is actually behind a bale of hay.  There's a video of it on Snopes, if you'd care to look at it.  However, you'll notice one big thing; it was not the pledge.  It was the National Anthem.  Though the official code of conduct for it calls that you place your hand over your heart, I've always been taught that standing at respectful attention was just as well.  Though I don't think that excuses someone who is running for the President.
 
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−
Also, I would like to point out that a "state" is defined as any territory controlled by a government, or any politically-united group of people occupying a defined geographical area.  In other words, there are states outside of the States.  [[User:AlrightThen|AlrightThen]] 19:17, 5 August 2008 (CDT)
 
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==Opinion?==
 
−
On the commandments page rule #5 states "Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry" and Note 4 on the same page says "Sources should be authoritative works, not merely published opinions by others."
 
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−
But numerous "sources" linked to on this page are actually opinion pieces on other sites or blogs (for example: 50,52,66,103,104). This is only after a glance, I'm sure there are more. Are these kind of sources acceptable?
 
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In a similar vein, "If elected, Obama would be the first Affirmative Action President." is also pure opinon. This kind of thing doesn't belong in an encyclopedia entry.
 
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May I suggest a cleanup of this page?
 
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--[[User:Proto|Proto]] 15:10, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Shhh. [[User:WillD|WillD]] 19:35, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Why do you say, "If elected, Obama would be the first Affirmative Action President" is "pure opinion"???  Polling data is factual.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:51, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:What polling data?  The affirmative action statements have no reference.--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 09:01, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:I'm trying to follow your logic here, you are saying that according to polls, people are planning on voting for Obama purely because of his race and not because they think he is actually qualified? And that would make him an Affirmative Action President? Or what? --[[User:Proto|Proto]] 14:31, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Or do polls show that most people believe he got where he is due to affirmative action?  I could see a poll result like that, but it would still be an opinion.--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 16:18, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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Based on the obvious bias towards McCain shown in the difference between the two articles, why not just SAY that Conservapedia endorses McCain? Both men have flaws; if you lead with the flaws in the Obama article, and suppress McCain's flaws due to bias, how is this an encyclopedia and how is it "trustworthy?" [[User:Yesaliberal|Yesaliberal]] 09:00, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Pearl Harbor ==
 
−
Are you serious? Do you really think he meant an atom bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor? He was born and raised in Hawaii, there's no way he thinks that. It's a clear example of synecdoche on Obama's part, and implying otherwise is petty and misleading. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 14:12, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Gaffes are revealing moments.  Suggest another plausible explanation, if you can think of one.  By the way, Obama did NOT go to grade school in Hawaii, so you seem nearly as clueless as he is.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:42, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Sorry, A, actually he did, the last two years of it anyway, and apparently junior high and high school, too. [http://starbulletin.com/2004/03/21/news/story4.html]--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 18:18, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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hmm, could it be that he meant to say bombS? but ACCIDENTALLY said bomb? you are against criticizing bush for mispronunciations, so why do the same thing to Obama?{{unsigned| NoahH}}
 
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: Nice try, but he would have corrected himself if he knew what he was talking about.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:12, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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: While it's true that gaffes can be revealing moments, I don't think it's fair to say they all are. I called a "direct object" an "indirect object" the other day in conversation, but I don't think that means I don't understand. As for other explanations... anyone who payed attention in high school English probably has heard of the terms metonymy and synecdoche... basically, when a part refers to the whole. ("The Crown" to refer to the government in a monarchy, "The Man" referring (whether it's an accurate reference is neither here nor there) to oppressive stratifications of power)). They're quite common in speeches, "my policy is to help the working man," "the Jew is the cause of all of our problems" etc. I think that's a reasonable alternative explanation, not to mention that probably 90% of gaffes aren't really meaningful at all, at least I hope not, because if so, I don't want to know what that says about me. :-) --[[User:GaFootballFan]]
 
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: By that reasoning, Bush can be criticized for misstatements/mispronunciations that he failed to correct himself. --[[User:Ank|Ank]] 13:06, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Can we add that picture of him wearing funny clothes and a turban? ==
 
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Just a thought....--[[User:BarbaraBui|BarbaraBui]] 10:13, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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== Did Obama think the atom bomb fell on [[Pearl Harbor]]? ==
 
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We really can't include this. This goes beyond what an encyclopedia article is into random speculation. If we leave this in we're inviting anyone to come along and add their own questions to the statements made in the article. It must be removed to keep the article's integrity. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 19:53, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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: "DefenderofTrue", how about requesting a change in your name to something real, so that you might obtain some credibility, if that is your concern?
 
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: Questions can sometimes be used to educate, and are sometimes appropriate in an encyclopedia.  I bet they can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica.  So your attempt at [[censorship]] fails.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:56, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::That's a very disturbing position. We could easily go through the article and add lot's of random thoughts and questions to the various sections. I could easily add at the end of the section detailing his early experimentation with illegal drugs a sentence saying "Does this mean he'll support laws easing penalties on young people experimenting with illegal drugs"? I'm sure there are other examples that could apply. If we're serious about being "The Trustworthy Encyclopedia" then we have to act like it. It's not necessary for us to throw mud, Obama's record and statements are enough to hang him (metaphorically speaking) all on their own. Sometimes it's better to fight fire with water than with more fire. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 20:11, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: Sorry, no encyclopedia deletes and censors all questions.  This particular question succinctly conveys a powerful, informative piece of information.  Yours do not.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:13, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::Does anyone else have an opinion on the inclusion of this? I'd like to get more thoughts from other contributors. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 20:25, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::I've never seen a question in an encyclopedia. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:48, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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DefenderofTrue, as it reads now the article is one long smear piece. I think much of this has to do with the fact that both Obama and Aschlafly went to Harvard Law and edited the Harvard Law Review. Obama used his gifts, achieved much, and pretty much represents the American dream that one can rise to the top via hard work. Aschlafly was born into wealth, and has achieved little despite his education and advantages.  Today he runs this odd website, and "teaches" home schoolers in a basement somewhere. I think that is the real story here.--[[User:Mantle|Mantle]] 22:40, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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I've changed the article so that it no longer reads as a question. This should take the "Are questions appropriate in an encyclopedia?" off the table, as I think it was a red herring. The real issue, I think, is whether the description of his gaffe is appropriate. Or whether, if appropriate, the gaffe deserves to be mentioned in the article. I think the answer to both is 'yes'. At any rate, I also think this where the real disagreement is so maybe we can proceed from here? [[User:TJason|TJason]] 08:59, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:That reads much better - I still don't think it's perfect but it's much better than before. Optimally I would be looking for something like "During a speech Obama referred to 'the bomb that fell on Pearl Harbour'. His supporters have suggested this was merely are verbal slip<insert cited source> while his detractors have suggested this is evidence of his basic ignorance about major events in  American history<insert cited source>" - opinions anyone? [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 17:26, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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== "and he would have likely benefited from special scholarships not available to most students" ==
 
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Do we have ANY evidence of this? There's no source attached to this claim. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 21:24, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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: It's a mystery how someone who worked so little, and claims such humble roots, paid for his college and law school educations.  Odds seem high that he never paid full freight like most people.  Obama could easily tell the truth and dispel the speculation.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:18, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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−
:: Paid full freight?  You went to college and law school, Andy.  Did you receive no scholarships or federal loans?  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 22:21, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: You speak in non sequiturs, perhaps to distract attention away from Obama, who has claimed he worked his way through college and law school.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:27, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::: I'm questioning your assertion that "he never paid full freight like most people."  I didn't pay full freight, I don't think you paid full freight.  I wonder what percentage of college and graduate/law school students pay full freight, i.e. no scholarships or federal loans.  But I'd be willing to bet it's less than 90%.  --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 22:29, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::: It's bizarre how you think taking out a loan to pay the college in full is not paying full freight.  The college receives 100%, and the borrower ends up paying more than 100%.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:34, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::I agree it's a mystery, but it's a bit of a jump from that to 'special scholarships'. We could simply state something like "As Obama only worked during summers and did not have many family financial resources to draw on it's unclear how he financed his college and law school attendance." and allow the reader to draw their own conclusions from that statement. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 22:31, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: It's not a question of "how he financed" as much as "if he even paid".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:34, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::I think we have a problem here. We seem to be breaking two of our own commandments on this article. 1 - "Everything (we) post must be true and verifiable" - we don't know this is true and we certainly can't verify (or haven't verified) it. 2 - "Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry" - without attribution or evidence this is indeed just a personal opinion. If we can't follow our own rules we lay ourselves wide open to charges of hypocrisy. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 22:44, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::DefenderofTrue, be careful. The rules do not apply to sysops, but they do apply to you.--[[User:Mantle|Mantle]] 22:52, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::Is it really necessary to be so snarky? If you have a legitimate complaint, it seems to me your tone will ensure it gets ignored. [[User:TJason|TJason]] 08:50, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::I was under the impression the commandments applied to all of us to be honest. [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 17:27, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::I am not sure what that comment means, but I am pretty sure I agree with it. My comment pertained to the snide tone and how that seems to just piss the SysOps off around here. [[User:TJason|TJason]] 17:44, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::Just to clarify - is it me or Mantle you're suggesting is snarky/snide? [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 17:50, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::::::::That would have been Mantle. [[User:TJason|TJason]] 17:53, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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::: Based on the obvious bias towards McCain shown in the difference between the two articles, why not just SAY that Conservapedia endorses McCain? Both men have flaws; if you lead with the flaws in the Obama article, and suppress McCain's flaws due to bias, how is this an encyclopedia and how is it "trustworthy?" Yes, I am a liberal, but I may vote for McCain based on experience, but until the election, it would be nice to see unbiased versions of the articles. [[User:Yesaliberal|Yesaliberal]] 09:19, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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There's no big "mystery" here.  Senator and Mrs Obama have made no secret of the fact that they--like many others who did not have wealthy parents--financed their educations largely via student loans.  See [http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/09/michelle-obama-baracks-book-sales-paid-off-our-student-loans/ this Fox News story], for example.
 
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:Well we can probably rule out Fox News being in Obama's pocket - however this isn't a definitive answer as it's quoting from his wife . It also doesn't rule out a scholarship - it's certainly possible to have both loans and a scholarship. I'd like some hard evidence either way here but it might be hard to come by. Would the educational institutions themselves confirm whether any scholarships were awarded and if so the qualifications for said scholarships? [[User:DefenderofTrue|DefenderofTrue]] 17:36, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Aschlafly, as you say "It's a mystery how someone..." That's exactly the point. If it's a mystery, then why would you assert something about his scholarships that should require citation? It's argumentum ad ignorantiam, and it sounds biased. He mostly likely did have scholarships, but for all we know they were exactly the same scholarships available to all other students. Your statement assumes a great deal for someone who admits that the truth is unknown. I am new here and I would like this project to be taken seriously, and I respectfully submit that unfounded allegations such as those will cost us much credibility. Let's document the truth, not speculation. [[User:WalksAmongUs|WalksAmongUs]] 22:20, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 

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