View source for Talk:Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise?

I set up the debate page with a "Yes" and "No" format, but I will not participate. I have made my view known on other debate pages listed on this debate page under the See also section. May God bless you all. ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

:Good.  Be a slacker.  My response will serve as the response of the community, and if you try this stunt again, I'll pursue getting it deleted with the assistance of RobS. [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Wednesday, 22:22, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

==The title of this debate is unacceptable==
Neither I nor RobSmith will accept a Debate whose title is based on such a loaded premise. We reject the very notion that the Roman Catholic Church as it exists today is the same church that "Jesus founded on the a rock" and that "the gates of Hell will not prevail against." [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 22:05, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

:The question, as stated, makes little sense, needs to be shortened, and re-phrased.

:My guess is DC wants to use it as another spamfest. Fine. But once the spam is posted here, it should not be allowed to be cut and pasted unto other good faith Debate pages, IMO. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:06, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

::Look at the top of this page.  He already told us he wouldn't be participating, even though he's the one who set it up. [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Wednesday, 23:16, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

:::He's making a statement. If nobody signs up in a few days, a speedy tag could be hung. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:20, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

::::So a debate page can be deleted for the sheer reason that no one participates, if such is the case? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 23:23, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

:::::Good question. I don't know. But if the creator of the page states it was created in bad faith and nobody participates, that certainly would be cause to hang a speedy tag, IMO. It could be defined as nonsense spam.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:26, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

==This is practically the definition of bad faith==
Please end it. --[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 23:34, 26 August 2020 (EDT)
:Yes. It's redundant of at least two earlier debates. ''They think by their many words they shall be heard.''  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 13:29, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

==IndependentSkeptic==
Dataclarifier may not be willing to participate. I am. At least once. <br> '''First''' the creator ot the page did '''''not''''' state it was created in bad faith. <br> '''Second''' (and I hope '''''finally''''') I posted on the Debate Page what I consider the most devastating response I ever found to the blasphemous garbage-mouth objections posted by VargasMilan and RobSmith against the promises of Jesus Christ and against his Church. I joined because of the Bible, and like Dataclarifier (Michael), I too have found the Catholic Church to be the most biblical Church. It's a Full Gospel Church. '''''Nuff said! Oh Yeah!''''' --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 08:17, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:This debate will not add anything new that has not already been said on other pages. But if it becomes helpful to save a few more souls in what promises to be another spamfest, so be it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:31, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

:Just remember, ''by grace are ye saved'', not spam, distortions, and lies. You're only making the chain heavier of the lost with all your spam postings and convoluted logic. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

:As Solomon said, ''much study is a weariness of the flesh''.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:35, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

::"''By grace are ye saved''". Exactly! '''The ''Catechism'' says the same thing!''' <br> [http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', Part Three, Section 1, Chapter 3, article 2: '''Grace and Justification'''] <br> You really ought to read it. The Bible backs it up completely. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:43, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:No it doesn't. The Catechism says ''grace is not grace''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:46, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

::You lie! No such text in the ''Catechism''. I've read it. You can't quote box any such passage anywhere in the ''Catechism''.

::Oh, the [[Truth (logic|logic]] is inescapable! Only someone like yourself blinded by [[confirmation bias]] can't see it. <br>Look at [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+9%3A39-41&version=DRA;KJV;ESV;NIV;NABRE '''John 9:39-41''']. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:56, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

:Catechism teaches grace is merited. It's already cited in mainspace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:03, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

::Not the initial grace of salvation. No one can merit that. ''You just won't admit it.'' That's the teaching of the Catholic Church. That's the teaching of the ''Catechism''. Apart from Christ there is no meriting salvation. Only He saves. Only through Christ can we do anything. Only united to Him can we bear fruit. "For apart from me you can do nothing". We can't do it! Again, look at [http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm '''Grace and Justification''']. 

::'''You lie about what the ''Catechism'' says.''' But you keep repeating the same lie. '''You''' are spamming [[Falsehood]].

::I will waste no more time with you. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:15, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:If grace is merited, ''grace is not grace''.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:03, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

:The grace of God is essentially the "good news", which is what the term "gospel" is translated into. Catholic catechism denies the good news, i.e. the gospel, and reverts back into law and Judaism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:09, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:''Ye are like unto whited sepulchers....…''  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:25, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
==This page should be locked if the disruptive trolling continues==
[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:44, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

==This page has turned into an incoherent mess==
Replete with Dataclarifier's signature redundant spamming, which IndependentSceptic has now adopted.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:52, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

:The spamming of -1,289 bytes and doubling down with another -2,301 bytes in an edit war [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Have_the_gates_of_hell_prevailed_against_the_church_Jesus_founded_on_a_rock,_when_He_Himself_said_it_could_never_happen%3F_Did_Christ_who_cannot_lie_fail_to_fulfill_his_promise%3F&curid=160783&action=history here marked in red] is making the page incomprehensible. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 13:53, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

==Mistaken reversion==
My reversion this morning was a mistake by my super-sensitive touch screen.  This error has been corrected.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 11:26, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

== Proposed revision of mainspace Debate page - orderly and organized ==


RobSmith proposed some new additional Rules for this Debate. I cite in particular these, as relevant to a revision of the mainspace page to remove spam, and disruptive insertions into original postings, as vandalism:{{quotebox|'''Rules'''
*Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.

*[...]

*[...]

*[...] Spamming is not allowed in either the Protagonist, Antagonist, or Open discussion sections. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.

*[...]

*No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user. }}

In support of these I proposed on my talk page an additional rule:{{quotation|
*Original postings are to be left intact. No inserting of commentary or challenge into an original posting made by another user, and thereby disrupting, interrupting or breaking up the flow of the thought or argument of the posting. Any editor can remove it, especially the original posting editor, as an attempt at spamming or vandalism, obscuring the point of the posting. <br>—Opposing comments or challenges to particular points in the Protagonist section must be made in the Antagonist section or Open discussion section, citing the Protagonist point being challenged by the opposing or objecting user. A quote box of the point being challenged by an opposing editor is encouraged. <br>—Opposing comments or challenges to particular points in the Antagonist section must be made in the Protagonist section or Open discussion section, citing the Antagonist point being challenged by the opposing or objecting user. A quote box of the point being challenged by an opposing editor is encouraged.}}In accordance with these rules proposed by RobSmith and myself I have revised a copy of the Debate mainspace page as follows. <br>(This is not spam. RobSmith said he had unlocked the page. It's still locked. All double-brackets enclosing identifying signatures of users posting comments have been removed from the copy below to preemptively defeat a potential accusation of "forging electronic signatures" on a page the user "never posted to"—meaning this Debate talk page.) <br> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:00, 1 September 2020 (EDT)

== Misleading RobSmith commentary - 1 Kings 11:12-13 "turn away" - and "preacher of the gospel" applied to himself 2Tm 2:7;  2 Co 10:14; 2Tm 5:17-18 ==

Debate page is still locked to prevent editing. Note posted at [View source] states any edit proposed should be first discussed. O.K. I propose the following edit be added right after RobSmith's partial quotation of 1&nbsp;Timothy 5:18 to "''not muzzle the ox''". 
:RobSmith characteristically misleads readers with comments that deflect from the point of the actual context of the reference being made, taking it out of context, in this case deflecting and implying as a mistaken typo the actual reference to 1&nbsp;Kings 11:12-13 that the kingdom was "''Torn away''". It says{{quotation|Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will '''tear it out''' of the hand of your son. However I will not '''tear away''' all the kingdom; but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.<br>—RSVCE ("'''rend away'''" KJV)}}But RobSmith says "''Torn away''" must be a typo, that it says instead "turn away". The actual text of KJV verse 9 says "''because his heart was turned from''". While there are many different versions of the Bible, '''''none of them''''' says "turn away" in 1&nbsp;Kings 11:9-13.<br>And not only that, but RobSmith also claims to be a "preacher of the gospel" in accordance with Matthew 28:19, which in the context of the passage was addressed to "the eleven disciples" who were those remaining of the '''[[Twelve Apostles]]''' whom Christ had "ordained"/"appointed" and named as apostles. (Luke 22:29; 6:13). But he refuses to answer and say unequivocally that he is an accredited ordained preacher, making his claim doubtful at best. The term "preacher of the gospel" in the New Testament was applied only to those ordained as preachers of the gospel and like Paul ordained as apostles. {{quotation|'''1 Timothy 2:7''' Whereunto I am '''ordained''' a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, ''and'' lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.<br>—KJV}}{{quotation|'''2 Timothy 1:11''' Whereunto I am '''appointed''' a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.<br>—KJV}}I've already quoted other Bible passages from the New Testament about the apostles ordaining elders as preachers of the congregations in the book of Acts. Paul's additional reference to not muzzling the ox that treads out the grain is RobSmith's answer to the question "Are you an acknowledged ordained preacher?" That's RobSmith's evasive and slanted abuse of scripture ''taken entirely out of context'' as if it is referring to all of the responses of correction on these Debate pages as attempts to "muzzle" him, to "silence" him, to put forth grounds to discredit his right to insist on his own interpretations and applications of the Bible as from God having called him to preach and teach the word, quoting Matthew 28:19, and 1&nbsp;Timothy 5:18 "''you shall not muzzle the ox''". <br>In fact, St. Paul was citing that passage as applied to himself regarding his rights and the rights of ordained elders (''presbyteroi''/priests) to receive a salary or monetary support ("honor") as an ordained apostle and preacher of the gospel.{{quotation|'''2 Corinthians 11:8-9''' 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages ''of them'', to do you service. 9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all ''things'' I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and ''so'' will I keep ''myself''.}}{{quotation|'''1 Timothy 5:17-18''' 17 Let the '''elders that rule well''' be counted worthy of double honour, especially '''they who labour in the word and doctrine'''. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer ''is'' worthy of his reward.<br>—KJV}}{{quotation|'''1 Corinthians 9:6-18''' 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?<br>8 Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? 12 If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more?<br>Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.<br>15 But I have used none of these things, nor have I written these things that it should be done so to me; for it would be better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void. 16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. 18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.<br>—NKJV}}
:RobSmith deceitfully uses the word of God. His interpretations of scripture cannot be trusted. <br>--[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:04, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
I really think this response edit must for the sake of truth be included on the Debate page, right after RobSmith's quote of 1&nbsp;Timothy 5:18a (his leaving out of v 15b), which he applies to himself in refusing to answer if he is an accredited ordained "preacher of the gospel". Given his past performance up to this day, I believe he will oppose including it, as an embarrassment to him for making false claims about himself. He has a right to '''[[Witnessing|witness]]''' to the gospel according to his own understanding, but no right to claim to be a "'''preacher of the gospel'''" if he hasn't been acknowledged by any church as "appointed and ordained" a preacher. 
--[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 09:53, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:So let me get this straight now, Paul withstood Peter to his face, is ordained by God, but Peter has all authority"  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 10:49, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::Peter was ordained by Jesus Christ Himself Who gave to him the keys of the kingdom of heaven to bind and to loose, and heaven confirms his authority, "shall be bound in heaven, shall be loosed in heaven". --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:00, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Yet Paul withstood him to his face. Paul was disobedient to God's authority?  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:15, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

::TLDR; this spam seems a little off-point to the Debate question. And talk about deceitful, give me one simple piece of evidence that Korah preached some perverted gospel of grace, and we can continue this discussion. One piece of evidence, not a bloc of spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 10:07, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

*''that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit''.

Yes, the '''''fleshly''''' kingdom was ''torn away'' from Solomon.

Yes, Solomon's heart ''turned away'' from the Lord.

The subject under discussion was Solomon's salvation, not his fleshly kingdom. You are spamming above, making a mountain out of a mole hill. I mistakenly thought you were discussing spiritual matters, not fleshly, when I mistakenly referred to you spamming the discussion with fleshly matters as a typo. I should have known better. You have no spiritual discernment.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 10:14, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

:You have a reasonable amount of time to produce evidence that Korah preached some perverted gospel of grace in the wilderness, preferably with one or two scriptures in support. Then, in accordance with the agreement we both have with User:Conservative, debates are not supposed to be on talk pages. 
:P.S., you exhibited bad faith in (a) violating the Rules you yourself proposed; (b) biased editing in your revised version. For example, the Protagonist position is based upon the law being a curse, while Roman church doctrine is based upon law. You edited out at least four references, along with the supporting evidence and context, to that point.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 10:31, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::(''Edit interrupted by Edit conflict'') Korah's rebellion (Jude 11) is rooted entirely in his perversion of the "good news" gospel statement of God that the whole nation is holy, and  Korah's interpretation as a pretext for the perversion of that gospel by rejection of the authority of Moses and Aaron appointed by God as shepherds over the whole people of God— Numbers 16 whole chapter, {{quotation|'''Numbers 16:3''' and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said, '''You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?}}The Protestant Reformation said the same thing. Evidence that you distort scripture still remains. If we are disqualified, so are you. We stand by our proposed edit as a definitive summary. Nothing needs to be added. It's the truth. Good bye. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:50, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Was Israel under grace or under law"  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:20, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

:More bad faith: I never referenced Matthew 28:19. You are trolling. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 10:42, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:Proposal: [[Debate: Who is ordained to preach and teach the gospel?]]  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 10:44, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::More bad faith squirming by RobSmith—Mark 16:15 says the same thing as Matthew 28:19. Yep. More of your persistent strategy of misleading distortion in virtually saying that Mark 16:15 ''has nothing to do with'' Matthew 28:19. Anyone who can read can see that it does. They can see that much. We stand by what we said about your abuse and misuse of scripture. Your interpretations and insinuations from the Bible cannot be trusted. You use the Bible deceitfully. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:15, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::One says teach, one says preach. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:24, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:'''Is User:RobSmith an acknowledged accredited ordained preacher of the gospel?''' --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:21, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::I have a ministry. I have been involved in prison ministry and ministry to the homeless for many years. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:26, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::(''Edit interrupted by Edit conflict'') Ah-hah. You say you have a ministry. You do not say you were ordained an acknowledged accredited preacher of the gospel. I have a Christian ministry too. But I'm a layman witnessing to the gospel, and so is Dataclarifier, doing what we can, but we are not ordained ministers to preach and teach the gospel as "ambassadors of the Lord" 2&nbsp;Corinthians 5:20.<br> For understanding clearly RobSmith's strategy of interpreting scripture: See [[Loaded question]], [[Misrepresentation]], [[Putting words in someone's mouth]], [[Confirmation bias]] and [[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]]. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:37, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::::You're full of bull. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:42, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::And in my prison ministry, in my part of the country I encounter many Hispanic Roman Catholic gangbangers who thought they were baptized into salvation as an infant. In prison, they have much time to think about that, and for the first time, be exposed to God's truth and God's word. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:35, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::*'''Psalm 22:6''' - ''Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.''
::I see the wreckage of human lives you create with your catechism and infant baptism. God has called me to clean up the messes you guys make. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 11:47, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

:::You are misleading again, by a lying implication. You are actually saying, that these prisoners' ignorance of the faith and their sin is the doctrine of the Church! That is a lie. They chose to be ignorant, to do as they pleased, to rebel against their upbringing, to sin against the preaching of the Church and her holy doctrine, to dishonor their parents and grieve them in spite of their pleading to get out of the gangs and come back to the faith of the holy saints and angels. I know. I've heard them. <br>There are also Catholic prison chaplains, ordained to ministry and reconciliation, who are expert in scripture and are devout followers of Jesus Christ. You suggestively imply that not one of them is in the prisons ministering to Hispanic Roman Catholic gangbangers by exposing them again to God's truth and God's word of reconciliation and healing that they heard in their parochial schools and at Mass. You impugn their ministry. Your deceitful interpretations of the word of God are misleading them away from the fullness of truth into a distortion of the truth of the Bible, the same Bible which led me and Dataclarifier from Protestantism into the Catholic Church as the most biblical Church on the face of the earth having the Fullness of the Gospel, not a distorted shriveled "withered" part of it—as NishantXavier said, maybe "50%, 80%, or even 90%" '''but not all of the truth revealed by God'''. <br>'''Answer!'''. Are you a fully accredited acknowledged officially ordained preacher of the gospel associated with any recognized established Christian ministry organization, congregation, sect, church, or denomination—or are you conducting your own personal ministry as a layman? '''Don't ignore the question! Are you a legitimately ordained minister of the gospel? You say you were raised Catholic. You claim to ''be'' catholic''' (small "c"). '''Are you a Catholic? ''Are you an ordained Catholic preacher of the gospel?'' Don't try to squirm out of answering with a direct "yes" or "no".''' Dataclarifier and I are sure we know the answer (so does his mother). --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 12:07, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::::(ec) I have witnessed miracles of changed lives. The gangbangers, like me, were instructed from an early age '''''not''''' to read the bible, '''''not''''' hear instruction from the bible, and were taught that they already had been adopted into God's family and received the Holy Ghost at infant baptism. (What you say about Catholic prison ministries is irrelevant to what we are discussing here). These gangbangers tell me, without solicitation, that they had been lied to by the Roman church and their parents.
::::*''Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness''
::::This verse is meaningless to someone who is told they have already been adopted into God's family as an infant. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 12:18, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::(''Edit interrupted by Edit conflict'') 
:::As always, misleading and false. They, like you, were taught from the Bible in their religion classes—''unless they refused to listen, even running away to go join a gang''. That teaching from the Bible in religion class by the sisters and brothers and priests was and is the pedagogy of the parochial schools since the beginning of the 19th century, so they ''were'' taught the Bible as the word of God and the whole faith of the Church as established by God with authority. Private reading leads to private interpretation. That's dangerous. It can lead to destruction and being led into error by lawless men (those who twist the doctrines of the scriptures and lean on their own understanding), and into falling from '''''security in holding to the faith by the knowledge of Jesus Christ''''', as Peter warned (2 Peter 1:20–2:3; 3:15-18). The devil quotes scripture too. That's why they were told not to read the Bible (for themselves). But anyone who really wants to know the truth will finally find it, just as we did, in the Catholic Church, and find the way of holiness by "partaking of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-11—''read it!''). And anyone among us who leads a sinner back from the error of his way will save a soul from death. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 12:40, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::::'''''Stop continually provoking more debate on this talk page''. This is not the place. You locked the page to prevent more debate, but you perpetuate it here. <br><big>You have our answer. That should have been enough!</big> <br>But you continue to spam more distortions and misrepresentations that beg for correction. You just won't let it lay down and rest. You just have to have the [[Last wordism|Last word]] with more unjustified [[libel]] and misquoting scripture out of context. <br> And I quote: "At worst, it''' [having the last word] '''reflects a lack of personal responsibility or bullying, which is a characteristic of wrongdoing or sinfulness."''' <br> '''''Enough!''''' --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 12:56, 4 September 2020 (EDT)<br>

We add that both Dataclarifier and I independently made inquiries and found that without exception '''a Bible was provided as a fundamental required teaching resource at every desk in <big>every</big> parochial school''', and in the religion classes the teachers and students together read from both it and the catechism. Problem was, some students didn't care and were not interested, too bored with school to listen. So, they felt no need to hunger and thirst after righteousness. Not the Church's fault, nor their teachers'. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 13:27, 4 September 2020 (EDT)<br>
:What a farce! The 7th & 8th grade classrooms I and my brother attended at St. Thomas Aquinas school did not have ''any'' bibles until my father donated two with inscriptions dedicated to my dead mother. They may still be there, and have probably never been opened since the day they were dedicated more than 50 years ago.  Neither did the grade 1-6 classrooms me and my 3 older brothers went through have a single bible, and probably still don't.  Likewise, the larger bible my father donated to St. Mary's school in Burlington, Wisconsin is probably still the only bible in the entire school, which included a high school. And my mother who taught there knew nothing of the bible outside Catholic doctrine, and certainly never conducted a bible class.  I had to learn it after she was dead. 
:Likewise, in the town I live now, where I am involved with several homeless ministries, Catholic Charities is right across the street from the Baptist Rescue Mission. The Baptists give out bible's of all sizes like candy in Spanish and English, whereas you can't find a bible within the four walls of the Catholic ministry if your life dependent on it. Don't give me this crap that Catholics teach or respect the bible. They don't. They fear the bible, as rightly they should. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 14:01, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::Let me guess where you and Dataclarifier, two adult converts, got your information about bibles in Catholic schools - a Catholic website!  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 14:07, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::(''Edit interrupted by Edit conflict'') 
:::Nope. We got it from former Catholics in our own city who'd always lived there. When we discovered they had once been Catholic we asked pointed questions about it, and they admitted they'd had Bibles in their parochial schools. But they weren't interested in reading it. It was boring. So, we got first hand info from people who'd actually been there. Not from online Catholic websites! Others who'd gotten away from the Church and become Protestants and then returned because they read the Bible more carefully, also said they weren't interested in the Bible in school, but came back when they felt they should read it. They said it was the Holy Spirit. So were some of the former inmates of prisons of Anamosa and San Quentin. When they read the Bible they were converted from their evil past, really repented, and became Catholic, they said because of the Bible. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 14:43, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::::Having been born, raised, and baptized Catholic, and around them my entire life, I can say, you were lied to. But that's okay, they can confess, "I lied X number of times" without enumerating or going into specifics about what they lied about and to who. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 14:50, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And this raises a good point: the penitent sinner can go to confession to cleanse their own soul, but no consideration is given to the party done an injury. That's a little self-serving, don't you think, what Catholic doctrine teaches? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 14:56, 4 September 2020 (EDT) 
::::::For example, a liar gets off with three Hail Marys, but you go around looking like a fool for life having believed him. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 14:59, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

===a bible in Catholic schools===
These statements,
{{quotebox|...without exception '''a Bible was provided as a fundamental required teaching resource at every desk in <big>every</big> parochial school''', and in the religion classes the teachers and students together read from both it and the catechism.....they weren't interested in reading it. It was boring...."}}
are certainly very interesting and revealing. "required teaching resource at every desk....teachers and students together....weren't interested in reading it. It was boring."

The Bible was boring. Hmmm, what possibly could be of more interest? sin? pride?  The teachers evidently were pretty incompetent in that they didn't make students read a "required teaching resource". 
*''Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness'', 
but the Roman Catholic teachers couldn't even secure this blessing for these baptized children, cause "it was boring". Evidently the blessings of God were boring for the teachers, as well.  Who needed any more blessings from God? They were already baptized. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 15:29, 4 September 2020 (EDT)



You never mentioned the numbers of criminals and gangbangers with Protestant Bible-believing backgrounds in prison '''who relied on being saved by faith alone''', who were told that there is therefore now no condemnation for all eternity for any sin they might commit, past, present, and future, "because they were in Christ and freed from the law of sin and death", and gave testimony and were baptized, and later '''rebelled against their parents, the Bible, and forgot what they had been taught by their pastors in their churches''', and now in prison have come back to the Bible. "But they were saved!" (Once). And they're from all races, Hispanic, White, Black, Brown, Red. '''Protestants! Fundamentalists!''' (Once upon a time). I know about all this, because I was Disciples of Christ, and Dataclarifier was a fundamental Baptist. And we both "got away with sin" for too long, until we read more of the Bible and saw that we couldn't rely for our eternal salvation on the fact once and for all that we had professed Jesus Christ as our own personal Savior. Both of us have committed jailable offenses worthy of long terms in prison that no one else knows about. (Difference is, we got away with it, but '''no more'''.) That's no different than what you said about those Hispanic Roman Catholics baptized as babies. Other prisoners guilty of horrible acts have been once saved, and did what they did '''anyway!''' Look at the news about so many privileged white kids growing up in Bible-believing homes and churches in their youth who threw it all off to commit in secret monstrous crimes of passion and corruption, but got caught later and brought shame to their families, and grief to the innocents they preyed on, and their families. So much for [[Eternal security (salvation)]]. Your blaming Catholicism and Infant Baptism for their gang raping activities is a crock. <br> Oh, if you're wondering: We each did our own independent interviewing of former Catholics by ourselves long before we ever met each other, like about 30-40 years ago. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 14:24, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:There's plenty of them - Protestants. Most who received the word as a child have a conscience and more easily convicted of sin. Roman Catholics, by contrast, have a longer road to travel, first having to unlearn all the garbage they were taught. So it begins with having a pure, genuine ''hunger and thirst for righteousness'', which conflicts with being brainwashed that they don't need it cause they were already baptized as an infant.
:So at what point is the righteousness of Christ imputed? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 14:45, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::''Or conflicts with being brainwashed by once saved always saved.'' --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 14:49, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::"''At what point''"? '''I've already told you!''' By the washing of water with the word. He saved us by the water-washing of regeneration. Baptism saves you now. His righteousness is imputed to us by his grace. And also when we're brought back from the error of our way. When we confess our sins. He is faithful and just to forgive us. And again, His righteousness is imputed to us by his grace. Read the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church''. Look at all the scripture cited in it. The correct understanding and interpretation of the Bible according to the mind of Christ is explained in it. Repent and come to the truth. --I/S and DC --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 14:59, 4 September 2020 (EDT)<br>We're done here. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 15:02, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::::(''Edit interrupted by Edit conflict'') Any further comments and rebuttals by RobSmith is going to be only repetitive '''[[spam]]''' adding nothing new to the discussion. He is a perfect example of someone who absolutely must have the '''[[Last wordism|Last Word]]'''. You have been warned. "'''''He'll be Back!'''''" We're done. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 15:20, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
::::We've debunked that bullrot a thousand times. You loose Christ when you take a crap after communion. So his righteousness has to be re-imputed again through the wash, rinse repeat cycle of sin, confession, communion. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 15:04, 4 September 2020 (EDT)<br>Consistent [[misrepresentation]] and [[ignorance]]. The presence of Christ passes from the [[Host (Communion)|Host]] into the body and soul of one who has devoutly received Communion the moment the Host ceases by dissolving to be the form of bread. <br> '''A fundamental principle''' of evaluating and discerning any such interpretation of Catholic [[doctrine]] and [[dogma]], like this one, or any interpretation that appears to be absurd, or evil, or brings reproach on the Church by [[libel]] or [[scandal]], is not Catholic doctrine but [[error]] based on [[falsehood]]s unworthy of belief. Do not rely on '''enemies''' of Catholicism to tell the truth about Catholic belief and practice. '''Almost the whole entirety of what RobSmith has been saying and implying about the Catholic Church and Catholic doctrine and dogma and the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' is a lie. He is not telling you the truth.''' We know this. Because we know both the Bible '''''and''''' the Catechism. And what he's been saying is not actual Catholicism. As Bible Christians who know the Bible we know this for a fact. From this we know that the preaching of the Church is the doctrine of God. Because it's biblical. To speak against the doctrine is to speak against Bible and against the Holy Spirit, Almighty God, with us for ever guiding us into all the truth for ever.--[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 15:38, 4 September 2020 (EDT)
:::(ec) I was not taught the Bible in 8 years of religion classes - I was taught catechism. And so were they in jail. As young people, me and the prisoners in the ministry felt no need to ''hunger and thirst after righteousness'', since catechism taught us we were already adopted into God's family, and only had to follow church law to maintain it.  None of this is biblical. 
:::''Ye are of your father the devil.'' Repent. 
:::Above, once again, you practice [[pride]] and [[idolatry]]:
:::I/S: "sin against the preaching of the Church".
:::The Church is not God. 
:::The correct understanding would be, "the preaching of God", "the preaching of Christ", "the preaching of the Gospel". But you glory in men (the church), not God. You and DC have made that abundantly clear over months. It is the sin of idolatry and a manifestation of pride.  A rejection of God, a lack of faith, and disobedience.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 13:08, 4 September 2020 (EDT)