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Revision as of 19:54, December 11, 2009
, 19:54, December 11, 2009→Please comment or ask questions here:
::::::"Insufficient", you need to get out more if you've never met a scientist who doesn't believe in evolution. And you need to respect logic more if you think consensus establishes truth. Better yet, I urge you to give equal time to the Bible, the most logical book ever written. Based on your postings, I bet you don't spend even 5% of your spare time reading or analyzing the Bible. Am I right?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:35, 10 December 2009 (EST)
::::::"Insufficient", you need to get out more if you've never met a scientist who doesn't believe in evolution. And you need to respect logic more if you think consensus establishes truth. Better yet, I urge you to give equal time to the Bible, the most logical book ever written. Based on your postings, I bet you don't spend even 5% of your spare time reading or analyzing the Bible. Am I right?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:35, 10 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::Andy, like I've said, I'm sure that there are scientists out there that do deny evolution. There are fringe scientists that deny most accepted theories. I know it's pretty crucial to your argument that you disagree with me, but they are by far in the minority. Being in the fringe doesn't mean that they are wrong (I have never stated that evolution is "fact"), but it also doesn't help your argument very much. I have also never said that consensus establishes truth (you need to respect logic more if you think that lying about my argument changes the actual argument). Ironically, you are implying that consensus establishes truth with your beliefs about the Bible. What I HAVE said is that there is ample evidence for evolution--far more than is available for any competing theory. I have presented a small, simplified section of it in this discussion, but as is typical in evolutionary debates, it has been ignored. You are free to disagree and I have offered numerous opportunities for individuals to do so, but you need to do better than telling me to read the Bible. Everyone here has made it quite clear that you all have very high scientific standards for the theory of evolution--high enough that literally NO answer will ever suffice. If that is truly the standard that you wish to use, so be it, but you are obliged to be consistent in your conviction. Creationism must be held to the same strictly scientific standards, and thus I implore you to present your counter evidence. I was raised in a highly religious household, so I can say with certainty that the Bible is certainly not the most logical book ever written. It has some useful life lessons (as do many books), but my understanding is that you are currently trying to remove these useful lessons from it, so I doubt we will come to a consensus on this. What it comes down to is that you are trying to have the best of both worlds. You want to be a scientist when it comes to refuting evolution, but then be immune to the rigors of science when touting creationism. If that works for you, then you have no right to preach to me about logic. The few arguments that I've been able to draw out of this discussion have ranged from misunderstanding to blatant hypocrisy. If these are the sirens of creationism, then they need to work a bit harder on their song. [[User:Insufficient|Insufficient]] 14:54, 11 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::Andy, isn't the whole philosophical underpinning of a wiki that collaboration and consensus lead us closer to some kind of truth? In your interview, you said something along the lines of "the best of the public" engages in a "process that brings out the best," and "the truth rises to the top." Isn't this a form of consensus-making? You also likened the process to a jury decision, which is also a process of consensus-making. So, what do you mean when you when you say that someone needs "to respect logic more if [s/he] think[s] consensus establishes truth?" Also, since the discussion here seems to hinge on people demanding "proof" from other people, could you provide proof that the Bible is the most logical book ever written? By what standards do you judge logic? Have you read every single book in existence in order to come to your conclusion? --[[User:WideAngle|WideAngle]] 12:27, 11 December 2009 (EST)
:::::::Andy, isn't the whole philosophical underpinning of a wiki that collaboration and consensus lead us closer to some kind of truth? In your interview, you said something along the lines of "the best of the public" engages in a "process that brings out the best," and "the truth rises to the top." Isn't this a form of consensus-making? You also likened the process to a jury decision, which is also a process of consensus-making. So, what do you mean when you when you say that someone needs "to respect logic more if [s/he] think[s] consensus establishes truth?" Also, since the discussion here seems to hinge on people demanding "proof" from other people, could you provide proof that the Bible is the most logical book ever written? By what standards do you judge logic? Have you read every single book in existence in order to come to your conclusion? --[[User:WideAngle|WideAngle]] 12:27, 11 December 2009 (EST)