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Talk:Opposition to classroom prayer (view source)
Revision as of 13:10, April 3, 2008
, 13:10, April 3, 2008no edit summary
::::: I would advise parents of children in public schools to asses their own understanding of the teaching of science, reconcile it with their religious beliefs, and communicate to their children their family's stance. In other words, one might tell a child, "Look, in public schools, as in the secular world in general, we are exposed to things that directly contradict our own understandings. It is important to understand worldly (secular) views but to also know that we don't always agree with them."--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 11:51, 1 April 2008 (CDT)
::::: I would advise parents of children in public schools to asses their own understanding of the teaching of science, reconcile it with their religious beliefs, and communicate to their children their family's stance. In other words, one might tell a child, "Look, in public schools, as in the secular world in general, we are exposed to things that directly contradict our own understandings. It is important to understand worldly (secular) views but to also know that we don't always agree with them."--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 11:51, 1 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::: By the way, I've heard ''numerous'' accounts of teachers publicly identifying Christians and making fun of their beliefs, or of teachers explicitly trying to refute the Bible. I mention that merely in passing, because I'm sure that you would agree that those teachers should not do that, and also because I'm sure that it's not school policy for that to happen. But perhaps it says a lot about the cultural environment that so many can get away with doing that.
:::::: By the way, I've heard ''numerous'' accounts of teachers publicly identifying Christians and making fun of their beliefs, or of teachers explicitly trying to refute the Bible. I mention that merely in passing, because I'm sure that you would agree that those teachers should not do that, and also because I'm sure that it's not school policy for that to happen. But perhaps it says a lot about the cultural environment that so many can get away with doing that.
::::::: I certainly agree that teachers shouldn't make fun of students' beliefs. I haven't heard such stories directly and every single teacher I know (in public schools) is either a Christian or Jewish, and I strongly doubt that any of them would ever even come close to that. They teach in inner-city schools, suburban schools, and one in a small town. I also strongly doubt that they would stand for an educational environment that would allow that to happen.--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 7:25, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::: What is scientific "consensus"? 100% agreement? 99% agreement? What? Evolution is taught as though it is absolutely true (more on that below), not as the majority opinion.
:::::: What is scientific "consensus"? 100% agreement? 99% agreement? What? Evolution is taught as though it is absolutely true (more on that below), not as the majority opinion.
:::::: Yes, science is self-correcting, but with goo-to-you evolution, we are not talking about observable, testable, repeatable science according to the scientific method, but ''history'', which, being in the past, is not directly observable nor testable, and certainly not repeatable. Evolution, according to Popper if I remember correctly, is a metaphysical research framework, and the "consensus" is simply that the large majority hold evolution as part of their ''worldview''; it's not a scientific "fact". So YECs don't just have to provide scientific evidence, but to battle the worldviews that include evolution.
:::::: Yes, science is self-correcting, but with goo-to-you evolution, we are not talking about observable, testable, repeatable science according to the scientific method, but ''history'', which, being in the past, is not directly observable nor testable, and certainly not repeatable. Evolution, according to Popper if I remember correctly, is a metaphysical research framework, and the "consensus" is simply that the large majority hold evolution as part of their ''worldview''; it's not a scientific "fact". So YECs don't just have to provide scientific evidence, but to battle the worldviews that include evolution.
:::::: A very large majority of scientists do believe that scientific evidence supports evolution and because it is done within a self-correcting paradignm, it (and many other "facts") are referred to as theory. Scientists know that new findings change their total understanding and they are very slow to declare something a "law." Yes, YECs have a double battle, one to convince an army of researchers that their evidence has merit and the other to sway public opinion.--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 7:25, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::: Why would it be inappropriate to say that the Bible is correct ''if it is correct''? Your comment presumes either that it's not, or that it's not possible to determine that. But the Bible contains a lot of history, and a lot of this history has been able to be checked and found to be correct.
:::::: Why would it be inappropriate to say that the Bible is correct ''if it is correct''? Your comment presumes either that it's not, or that it's not possible to determine that. But the Bible contains a lot of history, and a lot of this history has been able to be checked and found to be correct.
::::::: In a country as varied as ours, with teachers and students representing every possible religion or belief system, I would say that it would not be appropriate in a public school to state that any one religious text is "correct." Even in relatively heterogeneous towns and rural areas in which Christianity is the predominant religion, there is some variety and it is inappropriate for authority figures (teachers) to state that one religion is true and others not. I'd much rather leave that responsibility to families and churches. Peer pressure is very strong in schools and kids are ostracized for any number of minor reasons. Why encourage that along religious lines? Children can already pray on their own during the school day, at home, and at church. I do not think it is a good idea to try to subtely or not-so-subtely use public schools as places of worship or places to witness.--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 7:39, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::: "''It is not the responsibility of schools to help children deal with the relationship between their personal beliefs and the state of science...''": But what we are talking about is a claim about ''history'', not a claim about personal beliefs. And they ''do'' indoctrinate that the "scientific" view is correct. Even an attempt to put in evolutionary text books a notice saying that evolution was just a theory and not a fact (I forget the precise wording) was (successfully) challenged in court by evolutionists. And much of the challenge came from scientists, so scientists ''do'' do that.
:::::: "''It is not the responsibility of schools to help children deal with the relationship between their personal beliefs and the state of science...''": But what we are talking about is a claim about ''history'', not a claim about personal beliefs. And they ''do'' indoctrinate that the "scientific" view is correct. Even an attempt to put in evolutionary text books a notice saying that evolution was just a theory and not a fact (I forget the precise wording) was (successfully) challenged in court by evolutionists. And much of the challenge came from scientists, so scientists ''do'' do that.
:::::: That there is not consensus on every detail of religion doesn't mean that there is not consensus on much of it. And of course there doesn't have to be consensus anyway; the different views can be taught.
:::::: That there is not consensus on every detail of religion doesn't mean that there is not consensus on much of it. And of course there doesn't have to be consensus anyway; the different views can be taught.
::::::: I agree that students should be taught about religions and their roles in history, but I would certainly not want to be in charge of figuring out HOW to do that fairly! The obvious differences from one religion to another, or between belief and non-belief, are extremely complex and deal with major philosophical and theological issues, including concepts of sin, salvation, sacrifice, re-incarnation, atheism, and so on. Even highly educated scholars could conceivably have a tough time accurately relaying this vast array of knowledge to children, especially young ones, without their personal perspectives coloring the whole thing. The risk would be that a course might be taught like the world religion course I took in high school, namely that there is one correct religion and here are the reasons the others are wrong. Yes, I guess there is consensus about which religions have more believers, but the beliefs, even within one denomination can be hotly debated. And should majority rule when teaching religion? In the world, about 1/3 of the people are Christian, 1/5 Muslim, 1/10 Hindu, etc. The numbers change and in some places Islam is growing rapidly. In those areas, would it be appropriate in their public schools to switch to teaching that Islam is right once it crosses some percentage threshold? Minority beliefs in religion should be respected, especially in large, varied countries such as ours and installing one religion as the default in schools because it represents the majority belief does a disservice to that religion (Christianity) and unnecessarily alienates those holding minority beliefs. If anything, religion is too important for the public schools to handle.--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 7:55, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::: Certainly parents ought to explain to their children that what they get taught at school may not be right, but that is no excuse for schools teaching atheistic views as true in the first place.
:::::: Certainly parents ought to explain to their children that what they get taught at school may not be right, but that is no excuse for schools teaching atheistic views as true in the first place.
:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:47, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:47, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
::::::: I agree with you that public schools should not teach atheistic views. Ideally, they should be silent on religious issues and I know of no public school or teacher that promotes an atheistic belief (that there is no God, that there is no evidence for belief in the Bible or other religions' scriptures, etc., that there is no such thing as sin, and so on) or religions beliefs (that the only way to God is through Christ, his son, that repentence is necessary for salvation, etc.). I disagree that science teachers always teach science as fact. I know two science teachers in public schools and part of their goal is to teach students what science is and what it is not, in addition to the subjects themselves (chemistry, physics, biology, etc.) so that students know how scientific knowledge is formed, how it changes, what theories really are, the role of science in society, etc. From what these two say (and I know 2 is not a valid sample of all science teachers in public schools), their colleagues at other schools try very hard to do the same. By the way, both of these science teachers are Christians.--[[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 7:55, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
::"Secular" means separate from religion. It does not imply public. Also there is no prohibition of prayer in school. That is also protected by the first amendment. Students can pray any time without disrupting the school. What the critics are against is being forced to attend the prayer or the prayer being led by an authoritative figure like teacher. So it is not atheistic , just secular.--[[User:JBuscombe|JBuscombe]] 13:22, 1 January 2008 (EST)
::"Secular" means separate from religion. It does not imply public. Also there is no prohibition of prayer in school. That is also protected by the first amendment. Students can pray any time without disrupting the school. What the critics are against is being forced to attend the prayer or the prayer being led by an authoritative figure like teacher. So it is not atheistic , just secular.--[[User:JBuscombe|JBuscombe]] 13:22, 1 January 2008 (EST)