Difference between revisions of "Talk:Vegetarianism"

Revision as of 02:48, July 21, 2011

While I'll agree that being vegetarian is wrong because steak is so right ... how can you possibly say that vegetarians are evil?? I seriously hope this is a joke. Jrssr5 11:39, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

I vehemently deny that porco-pesco-ovo-lacto-vegetarians do not exist. For I am one such.

I'd like to see a small discussion of the dietary habits of Seventh Day Adventists here. I don't know enough about it, so I don't know what to say. (I don't know if they are obliged to eat vegetarian, but I do know that it's common among them.) Also, if this article mentions the Bible forbidding eating pork products, it should also talk about other things forbidden in Leviticus--shellfish, certain birds and other animals. However, as these laws still allow eating beef, chicken, certain fish, and other animals, I'm not really sure it belongs in an article about vegetarianism. I may fix this later. Kolbe 05:12, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

I made a few corrections. example: Milk is a product, not a byproduct, of a cow. A Pesco-ovo-lacto veggie is also considered just a pescetarian. Rocksteel 02:27, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

Huh? Jesus a vegetarian/vegan or a raw foodist? Evidence in the Bible? I can think of one instance where he is clearly said to have eaten fish (after his resurrection, appearing to the apostles in the upper room) and several where it's implied (the Passover supper and the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, for example). Only raw foodists are pacifist or compassionate? I'm going to delete this reference. Kolbe 03:06, 22 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't think Jehovah's witnesses are obliged to be vegetarian. I once asked one why they disagreed with blood transfusions, and she said it's because it says somewhere in the Bible that thou shalt not drink blood (or something to that effect). I then asked if she was vegetarian, and she said no... Adventists refrain from vices like drinking coffee and smoking, but I think they eat meat. Emmeline 12:50, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

Why "think" when you can "google"? ;-)

• For more than 130 years Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) have practiced a vegetarian dietary lifestyle because of their belief in the wholistic nature of people. [1] --Ed Poor 09:58, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Just an FYI, from personal experience, this is not true of all SDAs. I was friends with a family that were SDA in high school, and from hanging out with them and attending a few of their church functions I can attest that they were not vegetarians. --Colest 10:05, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, you saved me from "unthinkingly" putting in the first quote I googled! :-) --Ed Poor 12:19, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

comment on edit by Rschlafly

There is no evidence that vegetarians need to take any dietary supplements, other than B12 in some circumstances (Elderly, pregnant women, very small children), even then this vitamin can be found naturally:

"Fortified cereals are one of the few sources of vitamin B12 from plants, and are an important dietary source of vitamin B12 for strict vegetarians and vegans. Strict vegetarians and vegans who do not consume foods that come from plants that are fortified with vitamin B12 need to consider taking a dietary supplement that contains vitamin B12 and should discuss the need for vitamin B12 supplements with their physician". http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12.asp--Felix 12:16, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Henry Thoreau famously lived a year and a half on food he grew himself, as described in Walden. --Ed Poor 12:18, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Are you trying to distinguish eating a vitamin-fortified cereal from taking a vitamin supplement? I don't see the point. Either way, it is a vitamin supplement. RSchlafly 12:25, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

We should be clear, here: these are issues with a vegan diet only. You can get B12 from dairy sources. The issues appear to be:

Vitamin B-12. Vegans can get vitamin B-12, needed to produce red blood cells and maintain normal nerve function, from enriched breakfast cereals, fortified soy products, nutritional yeast, or supplements.

Calcium. We all need calcium for strong teeth and bones. You can get calcium from dark green vegetables (spinach, bok choy, broccoli, collards, kale, turnip greens), sesame seeds, almonds, red and white beans, soy foods, dried figs, blackstrap molasses, and calcium-fortified foods like fruit juices and breakfast cereals.

Vitamin D. Vitamin D helps our bodies absorb calcium and is synthesized by exposing skin to sunlight. But vitamin D deficiency can occur, especially if you don't spend a lot of time outside. Vitamin D is not found in plant foods; best dietary sources are fortified dairy products. Vegans can also get vitamin D from fortified foods, including vitamin D-fortified soy milk or rice milk.

Protein. Not getting enough protein is a concern when switching to a vegetarian diet. Protein needs can be met while following a vegan diet if you consume adequate calories and eat a variety of plant foods, including good plant sources of protein such as soy, other legumes, nuts, and seeds.

Iron. Iron from plant sources is less easily absorbed than iron in meat. This lower bioavailability means that iron intake for vegetarians should be higher than the RDA for nonvegetarians. Vegetarian food sources of iron include soy foods like soybeans, tempeh, and tofu; legumes like lentils and chickpeas; and fortified cereals. Iron absorption is enhanced by vitamin C.

Zinc. Zinc plays a role in many key body functions, including immune system response, so it's important to get enough of it, which vegans can do by eating nuts, legumes, miso and other soy products, pumpkin and sunflower seeds, tahini, wheat germ, and whole-grain breads and cereals.

Riboflavin. This B vitamin, which is important for growth and red blood cell production, can be found in almonds, mushrooms, broccoli, figs, sweet potatoes, soybeans, wheat germ, and fortified cereals and enriched bread.

Source: http://kidshealth.org/teen/food_fitness/nutrition/vegan.html

The stuff that I have enboldened, shows that you can get all you need by a judicious choice of vegetables.--Felix 12:44, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

I guess that you are agreeing that it is difficult to get a complete diet without vitamin supplements or fortifications. I've heard that it is also hard or impossible to get omega-3 from plants. RSchlafly 14:02, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Actually Flax seeds are a good source for omega-3s, especially Flax seed oil. I believe this is also true of canola oil and walnuts, but not sure off the top of my head. --Colest 16:13, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

I guess that you are agreeing that it is difficult to get a complete diet without vitamin supplements or fortifications. I would agree with this statement *for vegans*, specifically as regards to B-12, but not for lacto-ovo vegetarians, who should have no problems with any of these nutrients, even B-12.--Hsmom 15:34, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Well, let's not fight about it. If it's true, it will be easy to support. So I'm going to assign my research staff to digging into the details. --Ed Poor 16:08, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Okay, my friends at Google reported back to me, and we now have two footnotes about the need for nutritional supplements. On the other hand, those non-boat-rocking guys at the American Heart Association said:

• Vegetarian diets can be healthful and nutritionally sound if they’re carefully planned to include essential nutrients. [2]

My official position on this matter can be summed up in four words: "Choosy mother choose Jif!" :P --Ed Poor 16:20, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

The support is above. Some say it is impossible to get a healthy diet on plant food. Even if it is possible, it is certainly difficult, unless you eat supplements or fortifications. RSchlafly 16:22, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

I will concede the point and agree that most vegetarians will probably be using some kind of supplementation, whether it be multivitamins or enriched foods. Of course, you will find plenty of us carnivores supplementing our diet too. --Colest 16:34, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Also Ed, the sites you are using as references appear to be selling supplements (I say this because they are blocked at my office) who would obviously stand to have something to gain by vegetarians feeling they need to buy their products. --Colest 16:37, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Please be careful to differentiate between *vegetarians* (who usually eat milk and eggs), and *vegans* (who eat a much more limited diet).--Hsmom 16:42, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

I understand the difference, I have some friends who are lacto-ovo(including my girlfriend) and one who is actually vegan. I've been trying to read up on it today, and honestly I find a lot of websites who say one thing, and then some others that say the exact opposite. Just for example, this link says "Although dairy products and eggs contain vitamin B-12, research indicates that lacto-ovo-vegetarians have low blood levels of vitamin B-12."[3] And I've read websites that say the opposite. It is hard to determine just from Googling what the truth of the matter is, which is why I changed it to how I did and intend to leave it. --Colest 16:51, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Colest & Hsmom, you both make good points. --Ed Poor 16:49, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks!!! I made a small tweak, hope it's OK - first, I changed "strictly from vegetables" to "without eating animal products". I was trying to deal with the idea that vegetarians don't eat "strictly vegetables" (beans, grains, etc. are a large part of a vegetarian diet but, although plant foods, are not really "vegetables"); I'm not sure it's quite right yet. I also changed "is" to "can be" [difficult] - it depends on what you are willing to eat, how difficult it is for you to get "health foods" in your area, etc. Lots of vegetarians would not consider it "difficult" - it's more like you need to have some awareness of potential problems so as to avoid them, but once you're in the habit you don't really need to think about it. Also "most" to "many" - I'm not sure we've shown that most vegetarians actually do take supplements, but "many" is OK because I think it's safe to assume that many eat enriched breakfast cereal if nothing else. (Assuming health food brands are enriched - I'm not sure about this.) Tweak it more if you think it needs it. --Hsmom 17:39, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Hitler, Pol Pot, et al

We're not putting them on the list of famous vegetarians. We don't need an extensive link from that vegetariansareevil site. DanH 18:08, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

My understanding is that Hitler wasn't a vegetarian. Reminiscences of his cooks, orderlies, intimates etc seem to show that he did eat quite a bit of meat - the vegetarian thing was a propaganda exercise to portray him to the German people as a sort of ascetic, devoted solely to Germany rather than to bodily pleasure. For the same reason he couldn't be seen to marry or have female companions, hence Eva Braun being stuck away at Berchtesgaden virtually to the end. Bugler 16:52, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

Pandeism goes well with vegetarianism

Pandeists (at least all the ones I know) are usually also vegetarians!! Pandeism 13:08, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Health benefits unmentioned

This article could be expanded by commenting on many of the well-known health benefits of a vegetarian/vegan diet. Medical experts know vegetarians generally have lower risks of cancer, heart disease, osteoperosis, obesity, etc. Also, is it really fair to put "inhumane" in quotes as is done on the article? It makes the concerns of vegetarians and vegans seem crazy. --Stirlatez 22:38, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

Daniel quote

I don't think this quote expressly supports vegetarianism at all. It only implies that there was some suspect culinary practice among the Babylonians that was causing them to be thinner and look older than their age. For all we know, they may have been using some semi-toxic herb to season their meat, or some minor disease was affecting their livestock. If all they were eating was pure vegetables and water, then they would be unaffected, but so what? There's plenty of cases in the Bible where people are encouraged to eat meat. I don't find this convincing. -Foxtrot 01:01, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Not convincing me either. I think it means that because the babylonian food was sacrificed to idols it was inherantly bad. This had to do with Jewish law. User:AddisonDM

Reasons

Most non-religious vegetarians are college students or teenagers, for whom the vegeterianism is usually a short-lived fad or mode of rebellion from their parents and other adults. Once their idealism becomes tempered with maturity, they often return to eating meat.- sorry, this is gone till you find a citation. Or rewrite it fairly and objectively

No problem. Here's a quote I found from Lucy Watkins, editor of vegetarianteen.com : "Young people, especially girls, tend to be very loving and softhearted. [Lucy] Watkins says that, although sometimes teens become vegetarians because it's the latest fad, animal activism is often a spark for young people to become vegetarians. When it's done for "faddish" reasons, they usually don't stick with it. The animal rights kids tend to stay the course."^[1]

A second quote: "Most dietitians I spoke with who have teenage vegetarian clients agree that teens avoiding meat is becoming a trend or fad and that the vegetarian teenagers (mostly girls aged 14 to 17) they counsel usually come from meat-eating families."^[2]

I'll readd the statement about teens, but throw in the animal activism clause as a reason for some teens to stick with vegetarianism into adulthood. -Foxtrot 16:57, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Thanks so much! That's more like it. User:AddisonDM

Glad to be of service! -Foxtrot 20:08, 28 November 2008 (EST)

bulimia ?

I fail to see how this relates to vegetarianism ? is there a citation ? Markr 16:51, 28 November 2008 (EST)

I've just added some citations earlier in the article about teens seeking vegetarianism as a fad. Often they do it as a crash diet, which is unhealthy and frequently accompanied by many other bad dieting practices such as bulimia. -Foxtrot 17:05, 28 November 2008 (EST)

So then it doesn't have much to do with vegetarianism at all.--AlexanderD 22:48, 20 July 2011 (EDT)