Difference between revisions of "Talk:Abortion deceit"

From Conservapedia
Jump to: navigation, search
m (Reverted edits by WilliamA (Talk); changed back to last version by Crocoite)
(#3)
Line 50: Line 50:
  
 
::: You seem to miss the point.  The [[economic]] cost of abortion is primarily the [[opportunity cost]] of a life.  Have you ever taken a course in economics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:31, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 
::: You seem to miss the point.  The [[economic]] cost of abortion is primarily the [[opportunity cost]] of a life.  Have you ever taken a course in economics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:31, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 +
 +
:::: So... spending a large amount of your pay to feed a child is actually /saving/ money? And actually /saving/ that money by /not/ having a child is actually /losing/ that money? Good sir, are we in the Twilight Zone? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 22:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
  
 
== I was asked to help find cites ==
 
== I was asked to help find cites ==

Revision as of 02:39, March 24, 2008

Aren't #5-#8 pretty much the same thing? Maybe they could be condensed into one item? Also, you might want to add an item noting that pro-abortion folks like to claim that most Americans support their position, when the opposite is true (as per the item currently on the Main Page).--RossC 16:18, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

I agree that #5 and #8 are similar, but pro-abortion types don't care about logic and deny it. Don't ask me how! They don't care if they make sense.--Aschlafly 19:17, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
I would argue that 9 statements need 9 references (or maybe 18, since each statement is a double). And I'm not sure I understand how #3 works. Could someone explain that? Thanks. HelpJazz 16:25, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
I can add cites. I'll work on that now. Help is welcome.--Aschlafly 19:17, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
Number 7 (33 of 39 studies discussed in the Lancet article) is misleading. First of all, there were 53 studies discussed, not 39. Interestingly, the 14 that are left out here are the ones where there are prospective data on whether the study subjects had abortions (as opposed to asking those diagnosed with breast cancer whether they ever had an abortion, which is considered more reliable, partly because many of the studies derived data on abortion from national registries in countries that mandate abortion reporting by law, and partly because self-reported data are collected much closer to the time of an abortion and are less subject to bias). When the data from the 14 overlooked studies are summed, they show that for these studies, the risk of breast cancer is significantly less for those who had an abortion than for those who did not. As for the 39 studies that are reported here, it is also misleading to say that 33 showed increased risk of breast cancer with abortion, because only one of those 33 actually shows a statistically significant risk. This paper, in general, suggests that it is possible that induced abortion contributes to the risk for breast cancer, but it is far from conclusive, because it is possible that it is an artifact of the study design. And misstating what was found is not an effective argument. Murray 17:42, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
Part of abortion deceit is to equate a small study with a large one. I'll take a look at the other 14 studies, but my recollection is that they are either small or obviously flawed. Moreover, it is statistically significant and should be reported when 33 of 39 large studies show an increase in risk. As to the comments about study design, that is baseless speculation as it is not clear that one approach to polling is better than another.--Aschlafly 19:17, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
It is speculation in this particular case that the difference between the 2 sets of findings is explained by one being more accurate. In general, prospective data are given more weight. That's my point - there were different findings from one design type relative to the other. It is not clear why. As far as the size of the studies, by my math the 13 prospective studies (ie, the ones that show no increased risk) have an average sample size of 12,493. The 39 retrospective studies have an average sample of 2,228, which is about 17% of the size of the prospective studies. There is also the issue that nearly all of the 33 retrospective studies that are quoted here as showing a risk show that the risk is not statistically significant. Murray 20:58, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
Actually I misread the table initially. The 13 prospective studies have, on average, a sample of 3,374, compared with 2,176 for the retrospective. So the latter are actually, on average, about 2/3 the size of the former. Murray 21:03, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
I'll have to pull the article again and reexamine this to respond. Did Lancet ever post the article online for public scrutiny?--Aschlafly 22:35, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
I don't know whether they have made it freely available. It sounds like you have a copy or access to it, based on your post above and the fact that you wrote an article discussing it, but if you no longer have it let me know here and I can download and email it to you. Murray 13:15, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

If no one minds, I'm going to delete #4. Even though fertility declines with age, that has nothing to do with abortion, and abortion doesn't cause STD's. Blinkadyblink 17:56, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Abortion certain does encourage promiscuity, and you'll find a higher rate of STD's among women who have had abortions than those who have not.--Aschlafly 19:17, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
The myth doesn't have anything to do with the "in fact" in this case. Perhaps they should be two (or three) different cases? HelpJazz 21:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
They are directly connected. Abortion advocates falsely deny, and omit, how it causes infertility.--Aschlafly 22:35, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
OH! I missed the "which cause infertility", sorry. However, the statement about age and fertility doesn't seem related, since it has nothing to do with abortion. Or did I misread that one too? (It's quite possible). HelpJazz 22:45, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
HelpJazz, please try harder. An abortion by its very nature postpones the age for the mother's childbirth.--Aschlafly 22:53, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
I'm trying my hardest, I promise. The article says "fertility declines sharply with age", and the footnote (and citation) say nothing about this being due to abortion. Fertility declines even for those women who have never had an abortion. HelpJazz 23:06, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
HelpJazz, when a woman chooses abortion rather than childbirth, then she is postponing her childbirth to a time when she is less fertile. That woman is then more likely to encounter fertility problems when she does try to have a child. In addition, the promiscuity encouraged by abortion is also likely to take her fertility away. Get out more and talk to some liberal women who practiced what they preached and are now struggling against infertility in their 30s.--Aschlafly 23:10, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
Wow, ok. I see now what you were arguing; I thought you meant that abortion actually lowers your fertility/age progression. HelpJazz 23:36, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

#3

Can you explain this to me. How does an abortion end up costing more money then raising a child? I don't quite get what you're getting at here. The user formerly known as DLerner 20:00, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

People make more money than they spend. They pay taxes and still, on average, have an excess of over $400,000 per household. Every abortion costs an average of over $500,000, including savings and lost taxes.
I'm sure that surprises you. It surprises everyone, because abortion deceit has been so good at fooling all of us.--Aschlafly 20:22, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
And can I see a cite on that "fact" about making more money than they spend? And also on the $400,000 per household as well. Is that in a year, in 10 years, in a lifetime? Do you want to put any kind of reality in that statement or just throw a number out there and see if it sticks? And I did take an economics course, so feel free to use big words. --Jdellaro 10:48, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
Why/how/in what way does an abortion cost that much, somehow I don't believe that's the price clinics charge. The user formerly known as DLerner 20:33, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
You seem to miss the point. The economic cost of abortion is primarily the opportunity cost of a life. Have you ever taken a course in economics?--Aschlafly 22:31, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
So... spending a large amount of your pay to feed a child is actually /saving/ money? And actually /saving/ that money by /not/ having a child is actually /losing/ that money? Good sir, are we in the Twilight Zone? Barikada 22:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

I was asked to help find cites

I have done some research, but I am having trouble. I have added some cites, but perhaps someone could help me out a bit. I can't find a source which tries to argue that "abortion saves money" -- the only cites I can find which back this claim up are from conservatives who are attempting to disprove the claim. I can't find any primary source. Thanks. HelpJazz 21:44, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

I already supported that one with a citation. Thanks anyway.--Aschlafly 22:29, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
But you haven't supported (and I can't verify) that anyone actually uses the claim. That's what I need help finding. HelpJazz 22:33, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Abortion and Infertility

I just have to pick this up, how does abortion actually lead to infertility? Sure a woman who has an abortion may not be able to conceive at a later date because she has grown older, but it is not abortion which causes this infertility, rather age (infertility refers to the ability to conceive a child, rather than actually having children, a nun can be very fertile even if she does not have children). Also, the claim that 25% of girls have STD's which lead to infertility is not supported by the cite, which simply states that 25% of girls have STD's, not that all of these lead to infertility. And I'm at a loss as to how abortion actually lead to girls getting these STD's, I believe you may be mistaking it with sex... TheGySom 00:28, 23 March 2008 (EDT)