Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?

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This is a non-denominational exchange of ideas intended to bring about a greater understanding of the Bible.
All views are welcome.

Texts:

  • 2 Corinthians 12:9 - And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
  • Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
  • Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.

Yes, grace is administered through the sacraments

User: Dataclarifier

The sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church

The grace of salvation through the precious blood of Christ alone is the sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church.
In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
The "communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits is the imparting of grace from Christ alone. This is explained in detail from the sacred scriptures in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Part Two: The Celebration of the Christian Mystery — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2.htm
Section One: The Sacramental Economy — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm
Chapter One: The Paschal Mystery in the Age of the Church — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a1.htm
Article 1: The Liturgy – Work of the Holy Trinity — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a1.htm
Article 2: The Paschal Mystery in the Church's Sacraments — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm
Chapter Two: The Sacramental Celebration of the Paschal Mystery — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a1.htm
Article 1: Celebrating the Church's Liturgy — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a1.htm
Article 2: Liturgical Diversity and the Unity of the Mystery — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a2.htm
Section Two: The Seven Sacraments of the Church — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2.htm
Chapter One: The Sacraments of Christian Initiation — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1.htm
Article 1: The Sacrament of Baptism — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm
Article 2: The Sacrament of Confirmation — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a2.htm
Article 3: The Sacrament of the Eucharist — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm
Chapter Two: The Sacraments of Healing — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2.htm
Article 4: The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm
Article 5: The Anointing of the Sick — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a5.htm
Chapter Three: The Sacraments at the Service of Communion — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3.htm
Article 6: The Sacrament of Holy Orders — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a6.htm
Article 7: The Sacrament of Matrimony — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm

The Bible is cited all throughout as the source of Catholic Doctrine. Citations and references to scripture passages appear on almost every page and are noted in the footnotes (listed here for readers' benefit, to check for themselves):

Ephesians 1:9. Ephesians 3:9; see 3:4. See John 17:4. See Luke 1:23; Acts 13:2; Romans 15:16,27; 2 Corinthians 9:12; Philippians 2:14-17,25,30. See Hebrews 8:2,6. Ephesians 2:4; 3:16-17. Ephesians 6:18. 1 Corinthians 11:26. Ephesians 1:3-6. Luke 10:21. 2 Corinthians 9:15. Ephesians 1:6. Romans 6:10; Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; see John 13:1; 17:1. See John 20:21-23. Matthew 18:20. Luke 24:13-49. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16. 1 Peter 3:21. John 6:32; see 1 Corinthians 10:1-6. John 14:26. Romans 12:1. See Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:22. See John 15:1-17; Galatians 5:22. See 1 John 1:3-7. 2 Corinthians 13:13. John 16:13; see Matthew 13:52; 1 Corinthians 4:1. Luke 24:47. Matthew 28:19. 2 Peter 1:4. 1 Corinthians 11:26; 15:28. 1 Corinthians 16:33. Luke 22:15. Titus 2:13. Revelation 22:17,20. Revelation 4:2,8; Isaiah 6:1; see Ezekiel 1:26-28. Revelation 5:6; see John 1:29; Hebrews 4:14-15; 10:19-22. Revelation 22:1; see 21:6; John 4:10-14. See Revelation 4–5; 7:1-8; 14:1; Isaiah 6:2-3. Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 21:9; see 12. Revelation 7:9. See 1 Peter 2:4-5. See 1 Peter 2:9; 2:4-5. Romans 12:4. Wisdom 13:1; Romans 1:19 f; Acts 14:17. Luke 8:10. See John 9:6; Mark 7:33 ff; 8:22 ff. See Luke 9:31; 22:7-20. Ephesians 5:19; see Colossians 3:16. Hebrews 12:1. See Matthew 6:11; Hebrews 3:7–4:11; Psalm 95:7. Luke 4:19. 1 Thessalonians 5:17; Ephesians 6:18. John 4:24. 1 Peter 2:4-5. 2 Corinthians 6:16. See Hebrews 13:10. Revelation 21:4. 2 Timothey 1:14 (Vulg.). Romans 16:26. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; see Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:12. Titus 3:5; John 3:5. John 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:5; Hebrews 10:32; Ephesians 5:8. See Genesis 1:2. 1 Peter 3:20. See Matthew 3:13. Matthew 28:19-20; see Mark 16:15-16. Matthew 3:15. See Philippians 2:7. Matthew 3:16-17. Mark 10:38; see Luke 12:50. See John 19:34; 1 John 5:6-8. See John 3:5. Acts 2:38. See Acts 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15. Acts 16:31-33. Romans 6:3-4; see Colossians 2:12. Galatians 3:27. See 1 Corinthians 6:11; 12:13. 1 Peter 1:23; see Ephesians 5:26. See Romans 6:17. John 3:5. See 1 Timothy 2:4. See John 3:5. See Matthew 28:19-20. See Mark 16:16. Mark 10:14; see 1 Timothy 2:4. See Acts 2:38; John 3:5. 2 Timothy 2:5. 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Peter 1:4; see Galatians 4:5-7. See 1 Corinthians 6:15; 12:27; Romans 8:17. See 1 Corinthians 6:19. Ephesians 4:25. 1 Corinthians 12:13. 1 Peter 2:5. 1 Peter 2:9. See 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 5:15. Hebrews 13:17. See Ephesians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 16:15-16; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; John 13:12-15. See Romans 8:29. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Luke 4:16-22. See Matthew 3:13-17; John 1:33-34. John 3:34. See Ezekiel 36:25-27; Joel 3:1-2. See Luke 12:12; John 3:5-8; 7:37-39; 16:7-15; Acts 1:8. See John 20:22; Acts 2:1-4. Acts 2:11; see 2:17-18. See Acts 2:38. Acts 10:38. See Deuteronomy 11:14: Psalms 23:5; 104:15. See Isaiah 1:6; Luke 10:34. 2 Corinthians 5:15. See Genesis 38:16; 41:42; Deuteronomy 32:34. See 1 Kings 21:8; Jeremiah 32:10; Isaiah 29:11. See John 6:27. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; see Ephesians 1:13; 4:30. See Revelation 7:2-3; 9:4; Ezekiel 9:4-6. Romans 8:15. Acts 1:14. 1 Corinthians 15:28. See Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24. See Matthew 26:26; Mark 14:22. See 1 Corinthians 11:20; Revelation 19:9. See Matthew 14:19; 15:36; Mark 8:6,19.See Matthew 26:26; 1 Corinthians 11:24. See Luke 24:13-35. See Acts 2:42,46; 20:7,11. See 1 Corinthians 10:16-17. See 1  Corinthians 11:17-34. Hebrews 13:15; see 1 Peter 2:5; Psalm 116:13,17; Malachi 1:11. See 1 Corinthians 10:16-17. See Psalm 104:13-15. Genesis 14:18. See Deuteronomy 8:3. 1 Corinthians 10:16. See Matthew 14:13-21; 15:32-39. See John 2:11; Mark 14:25. John 6:60. John 6:67. John 6:68. See John 13:1-17; 34-35. See John 6. Luke:22:7-20; see Matthew 26:17-25; 1 Cornithians 11:23-26. See 1 Cornithians 11:26. Acts 2:42,46. Acts 20:7. 1 Corinthians 11:26. See Luke 24:13-35. See 1 Thessalonians 2:13. 1 Timothy 2:1-2. See Malachi 1:11. See 1 Corinthians 16:1; 2 Corinthians 8:9. John 6:51. 1 Corinthians 11:24-25. See Exodus 13:3. See Hebrews 7:25-27. See 1 Corinthians 5:7. Luke 22:19-20. Matthew 26:28. See 1 Corinthians 11:23; Hebrews 7:24,27. See Hebrews 9:14,27. Romans 8:34. Matthew 18:20. See Matthew 25:31-46. See Matthew 26:26 ff; Mark 14:22 ff; Luke 22:19 ff; 1 Corinthians 11:24 ff. John 13:1. See Galatians 2:20. John 6:53. 1 Corinthians 11:27-29. See Matthew 8:8. John 6:56. John 6:57. See 1 Corinthians 12:13. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17. See Matthew 25:40. Matthew 26:29; see Luke 22:18; Mark 14:25. Revelation 1:4; 22:20; 1 Corinthians 16:22. 2 Peter 3:13. 2 Corinthians 4:7; Colossians 3:3. 2 Corinthians 5:1. See Mark 2:1-12. See Mark 1:15; Luke 15:18. 2 Corinthians 5:20. Matthew 5:24. 1 Corinthians 6:11. Galatians 3:27. 1 John 1:8. See Luke 11:4; Matthew 6:12. Ephesians 1:4; 5:27. Mark 1:15. See Acts 2:38. Psalm 51:17; see John 6:44; 12:32; 1 John 4:10. See Luke 22:61; John 21:15-17. Revelation 2:5,16. See Joel 2:12-13; Isaiah 1:16-17; Matthew 6:1-6; 16-18. See Ezekiel 36:26-27. Lamentations 5:21. See John 19:37; Zechariah 12:10. See John 16:8-9. See John 15:26; Acts 2:36-38. See Tobit 12:8; Matthew 6:1-18. 1 Peter 4:8; see James 5:20. See Amos 5:24; Isaiah 1:17. See Luke 9:23. See Mark 2:7. Mark 2:5,10; Luke 7:48. See John 20:21-23. 2 Corinthians 5:18. 2 Corinthians 5:20. See Luke 15; 19:9. Matthew 16:19; see Matthew 18:18; 28:16-20. See Matthew 5–7; Romans 12–15; 1 Corinthians 12–13; Galatians 5; Ephesians 4–6; etc. See Exodus 20:17; Matthew 5:28. See Luke 6:36. Romans 8:17; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2. See Philippians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 1:31; 2 Corinthians 10:17; Galatians 6:14; Luke 3:8. See John 20:23; 2 Corinthians 5:18. See Luke 15:32. See 1 Corinthians 12:26. John 5:24. Ephesians 4:22,24. Mark 2:5. See Mark 2:17. See James 5:14-16; Romans 8:17; Colossians 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Peter 4:13. See Psalms 6:3; 38; Isaiah 38. See Psalms 32:5; 38:5; 39:9,12; 107:20; see Mark 2:5-12. Exodus 15:26. See Isaiah 53:11. See Isaiah 33:24. Luke 7:16; see Matthew 4:24. See Mark 2:5-12. See Mark 2:17. Matthew 25:36. See Mark 5:34,36; 9:23. See Mark 7:32-36; 8:22-25. John 9:6-7. Luke 6:19; see Mark 1:41; 3:10; 6:56. Matthew 8:17; see Isaiah 53:4. John 1:29; see Isaiah 53:4-6. See Matthew 10:38. Mark 6:12-13. Mark 16:17-18. See Acts 9:34; 14:3. See Matthew 1:21; Acts 4:12. See 1 Corinthians 12:9,28,30. 2 Corinthians 12:9; Colossians 1:24. Matthew 10:8. See John 6:54,58; 1 Corinthians 11:30. James 5:14-15. James 5:14. See James 5:15. See Hebrews 2:15. James 5:15. John 6:54. See John 13:1. Hebrews 5:6; 7:11; Psalm 110:4. Exodus 19:6; see Isaiah 61:6. See Numbers 1:48-53; Joshua 13:33. Hebrews 5:1; see Exodus 29:1-30; Leviticus 8. See Malachi 2:7-9. See Hebrews 5:3; 7:27; 10:1-4. See Numbers 11:24-25. 1 Timothy 2:5. Hebrews 5:10; see 6:20; Genesis 14:18. Hebrews 7:26. Hebrews 10:14. Revelation 1:6; see Revelation 5:9-10; 1 Peter 2:5,9. See Mark 10:43-45; 1 Peter 5:3. See Acts 1:8; John 20:22-23; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6-7. See Hebrews 5:1-10; 7:24; 9:11-28. See Acts 1:8. See 1 Corinthians 11:26. See Mark 10:45; Luke 22:27. See Ephesians 4:11. See Mark 3:14-19; Luke 6:12-16; 1 Timothy 3:1-13; 2 Timothy 1:6; Titus 1:5-9. See Hebrews 5:4. Matthew 19:12. 1 Corinthians 7:32. Revelation 19:7; see Genesis 1:26-27. 1 Corinthians 7:39; see Ephesians 5:31-32. See Genesis 1:27; 1 John 4:8,16. Genesis 1:28; see 1:31. Genesis 2:18. See Genesis 2:18-25. Genesis 2:24. Matthew 19:6. See Genesis 3:12. See Genesis 2:22; 3:16b. See Genesis 1:28; 3:16-19. See Genesis 3:21. Genesis 3:16,19. See Matthew 19:8; Deuteronomy 24:1. See Hosea 1–3; Isaiah 54; 62; Jeremiah 2–3; 31; Ezekiel 16; 23; Malachi 2:13-17. Song 8:6-2 (Song of Solomon 8:6-2). Revelation 19:7,9. See John 2:1-11. See Matthew 19:8. See Mark 8:34; Matthew 11:29-30. See Matthew 19:11. Ephesians 5:25-26,31-32; see Genesis 2:24. See Ephesians 5:26-27. See Luke 14:26; Mark 10:28-31. See Revelation 14:4; 1 Corinthians 7:32; Matthew 25:6. Matthew 19:12. See Mark 19:3-12. See 1 Corinthians 10:17. See Ephesians 5:32. Genesis 2:24; see Mark 10:8; Ephesians 5:31. 1 Corinthians 7:14. See 1 Corinthians 7:16. See Mark 10:9. Ephesians 5:21; see Galatians 6:2. Matthew 19:6; see Genesis 2:24. See Genesis 2:18; Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:28. See Acts 18:8. See Acts 16:31; Acts 11:14.

These scripture passages are supplemented on every page with citations and references to the interpretations and commentaries of the ancient Church Fathers east and west, Council documents, Ecumenical Council Documents, and Decrees and Encyclicals of the Popes of the Catholic Church.

The doctrine that the grace of salvation is through the precious blood of Christ alone is the sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church, supported by scripture, and apostolic tradition, and the dogmatic interpretation of both sacred scripture and apostolic tradition through the magisterium of the church, "the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth"—"and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:42, 11 August 2020 (EDT)

The question of whether the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has the scriptural authority of Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel of salvation and to rightly teach the correct interpretation of scripture is debated on another page. See also (below). --Dataclarifier (talk) 06:25, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
According to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, the unmerited gift of justification and grace unto eternal salvation before death is immediately bestowed during the life of the baptized person by Jesus Christ through the ministry of the Church. They do not have to wait for death to be assured of salvation. If the baptized Christian perseveres to the end, the unmerited grace of salvation through Jesus Christ alone continues after death, and heaven is guaranteed. If the baptized person sins and forfeits salvation by committing a mortal sin, it can be restored by repentance and confession before death (1 John 1:8–2:6). See Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section 1, Chapter 3, article 2: Grace and Justification --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:18, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is debated on another page. See also (below). --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:18, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
(See link to Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Final Purification, or Purgatory) --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:22, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:30, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that no one can earn salvation:
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
For dedicated Catholics who know and love the faith of the Church in Jesus Christ Our Lord heaven begins here on earth and continues after death into eternity with God.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. —John 15:1-6 RSVCE
--Dataclarifier (talk) 08:32, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Paragraph 2008, "the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God" is directly contradicted by Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:24, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
(That statement makes scripture contradict itself.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:35, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace will further contradict other portions of catechism, such as Paragraph 2010, "Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions;" no more means no more.
(We ask God for an increase of the unmerited grace of his gift to be able to do good works. The very ability to do good is the gift of God, who expects us to cooperate with his free gift.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
So you are saying God considers it a quid pro quo, not a free gift. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:08, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both[1] have access in one Spirit to the Father. Through him, not through our merit. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:43, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
(That's what scripture and the catechism says.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:35, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Mike Winger illustrates the point quite succinctly. He holds out his bible and says, "Here, you can have this for free;" then he draws it back and says, "it'll cost you $20." RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:13, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
That's a misrepresentation. God gives the free gift and says, "Now go do good with it." Those who don't even try will not be approved, unless before death they repent of their failure (refusal) to do anything good to please Him according to his will. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
God requires doing good by the power of his grace. "Faith without works is dead" --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:35, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
  • Faith without works is dead, not "grace" without works is dead.
  • 2 Timothy 2:13 - if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
There are no works required of us to receive his grace - and particularly partaking in the Eucharist - otherwise grace is no more grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:03, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"...the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful."
"The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness."
"The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace."
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it is said, When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." Ephesians 4:4-8
"for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13
Look at the parable of the talents freely given to each of the servants. They didn't earn them, they were an unmerited gift, but the Lord expected them to work with them, and he condemned the servant who did nothing with the gift, and took away what he had given, gave it to the one who gained most with his gift, and had them cast out the one who did not work any good with the gift into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And as for those who give scandal to little ones in the church, look at the parable of the weeds in the field sown among the wheat. The Lord of the field said not to uproot the weeds lest they uproot the wheat with them, but to let both grow together, and then at harvest time to gather up the weeds for burning but to gather the wheat into his barns.
"For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immmortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious (schismatic, disobedient) and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Gentile, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Gentile. For God shows no partiality" Romans 2:6-11.
This is why the Church in one of her prayers of praise says, "In crowning your saints You are but crowning Your own gifts".--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:25, 11 August 2020 (EDT)

Bible Verses on Works, the Necessity of Good Works

  • Bible Verses on Works, the Necessity of Good Works (cgg.org) --a page display of the Bible text of 63 passages that speak plainly without any comment that you can readily read for yourself, shown in the following sequence:
    Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 2:12-13; John 14:15; Titus 2:14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:15-17; Ephesians 4:22-24; Titus 2:11-12; Revelation 20:12-13; Matthew 16:24; Romans 12:1-2; Hebrews 4:1; Hebrews 6:1; Matthew 16:27; Matthew 25:28-30; Romans 2:13; Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:3; 1 John 5:3; Matthew 6:37; Matthew 19:16-19; John 6:27; John 15:8; John 15:16; Romans 6:1-2; Romans 6:4; Romans 6:18-19; Romans 8:7; 1 Corinthians 3:8-10; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Corinthians 6:1; Ephesians 5:1-2; Colossians 3:8-10; Hebrews 6:10; Psalm 119:1; Psalm 119:10; Psalm 119:172; Proverbs 24:30-34; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 19:21-22; Matthew 25:14; Matthew 25:24-25; Matthew 25:41; Luke 13:24; John 15:14; Acts 5:32; Romans 5:5-11; Romans 7:22-23; Romans 14:12; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Galatians 5:6; Colossians 3:5; Colossians 3:23-24; Titus 1:16; Hebrews 11:7; 1 John 3:18; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 19:7-8
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:20, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The question is not faith vs. works; the question is what is necessary to receive God's grace? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
According to Orthodox and Catholic doctrine, the sacraments. Good works animated by faith and the grace bestowed through the sacraments by the cooperation of faith in God's promises are necessary to receive God's grace. Grace is necessary to receive grace. As long as one does not place an obstacle to the receiving of grace from God's free giving of Himself through the sacraments, beginning with baptism, followed by the receiving of the teaching of all that Jesus commanded the apostles, grace is bestowed by God and received by the baptized Christian adopted as His child. Grace is lost by refusal to delight in doing good according to Christ's commands. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:18, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
So grace is a free gift that has to be earned. Ok, that answers the question. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:11, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
No, we love because he first loved us. "Little children, let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth" 1 John 3:18. "Land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned" Hebrews 6:7-8. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:58, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
The rain can also be an image of the Holy Spirit, and the grass covering can also be a picture of the atonement. So you're starting to loose me. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:06, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
The rain according to centuries of Christian apostolic tradition is the grace of salvation. The good vegetation is good works and the field producing them (the Christian) is blessed. And the thorns and thistles are sinful works and the field producing them (the Christian) is "near to being cursed; its end is to be burned" if there is no repentance. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
Isaiah 55:1-5, 8-10 - Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.....8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
A lot to unpack here, beginning with the free gift; then a prophecy of Christ; then the calling of a nation that thou knowest not; verse 8 and 9 seem to rebuke much of what Catechism tries to accomplish: my thoughts are not your thoughts,...my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts; verse 10 has no Apostolic tradition or doctrine of men behind it, and tells us about the seed of the sower -- which Jesus defines as the Word of God and not catechism; etc. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 16:46, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
He sows the seed through the Church. Apostolic tradition and doctrine is the witness. Hear and your soul will live.
The rain is free. Hebrews 6:7. The field does not cause the rain to fall on it. What each field produces in response is decisive of its fate. The branches of the vine are expected to produce fruit. John 15:1-10. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:53, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Ezekiel 16–18

The Bible says that salvation cannot be earned. This biblical doctrine is also Catholic doctrine, as shown above in the citations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Bible also says those who do not delight in cooperating with the will of God in doing good by the power of his grace with him through them and in them doing his works as a participation in and expression of his own divine nature as his own adopted children will be condemned.
The unmerited adoption by grace of God (which they did not earn) with the bestowing of the grace of free gifts on the people of Israel (which they did not earn), and, after all that God had done for them, their punishment for their persistent refusal to delight in doing good, after all that God had done for them, is illustrated in Ezekiel 16–18
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:03, 11 August 2020 (EDT)

If salvation cannot be earned, why do I have to do time in Purgatory since the blood of Christ in insufficient to cleanse all sin? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:10, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The defect of lacking wholehearted service to God is the cause. Minor compromise by remnants of selfishness in what we do and fail to do as we really should. Imperfect love, but love nevertheless still remains. God is not willing that any should perish. There are different degrees of sin. Some are very minor sins committed after baptism. Others are so serious that they kill the life of the soul that has been saved. In that case there is absolutely no love of God above self. This includes refusing to do what is right in an important matter, such as denying Christ to avoid public shame or personal ruin or execution (martyrdom). The Christian knows that such things are a sin, and that it's a serious evil, and decides to do it anyway. Minor (venial) sins not sacramentally confessed and absolved before death are purged. Major (mortal) sins not sacramentally confessed and absolved before death condemn the soul to the second eternal death in the lake of fire. Both types of sins are done away in the sacrament of confession and absolution which applies the precious blood of Jesus Christ to the soul of the sinner, major and minor. See 1 John 5:14-17, John 20:21-23, and the link to Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Final Purification, or Purgatory. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:21, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
“In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.”
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
(EDT)--Dataclarifier (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
So Christ died for nothing and you have to work your way out of Purgatory. Ok, that answers that question. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:12, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."—St. Paul. Catholic doctrine teaches that only through Christ Jesus are we saved. "And he who perseveres to the end will be saved."—Jesus. He forgives all sins and bestows the grace of eternal life in his name through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. Those in purgatory are saved through the mercy of Christ alone in justice and truth. This is plainly evident in all of the links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church provided on this page above showing the doctrine is fundamentally biblical.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
How does one work out your own salvation outside the dictates of the Magisterium? Didn't Martin Luther try to do that and the church called down anathema on him? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:01, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."—St. Paul (Ephesians 6:5). Catholic doctrine teaches that only through Christ Jesus are we saved. "And he who perseveres (endures) to the end will be saved."—Jesus (Matthew 10:23b). He forgives all sins and bestows the grace of eternal life in his name through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. Those in purgatory are saved through the mercy of Christ alone in justice and truth. This is plainly evident in all of the links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church provided on this page above showing the doctrine is fundamentally biblical.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"...all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body". —Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 846. (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:4-30; Romans 12:4-8; 1 Timothy 3:15) --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:08, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Protestants join the Catholic Church when they study scripture for themselves

A Protestant Historian Discovers the Catholic Church - David Anders, Ph.D.

A Bible-Believer Becomes Catholic by Believing the Bible - Wesley Vincent, Ph.D.

The Verses I Never Saw As a Protestant Pastor - Marcus Grodi

Bible Converts Protestant to Catholic Faith - Lois Day

Conversion Stories - The Latest Stories (of conversions to Catholicism)

This One Quote Convinced Me to Convert to Catholicism - Albert Little

Dataclarifier's witness and testimony: from darkness into glorious light - Michael Paul Heart

--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Ex-Catholics who do not know their faith

Ex Catholics! (The Sad story of ex-Catholics who did not know their faith) - Bryan Mercier
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:40, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Below in the next section are citations of scripture removed out of context and directly applied to the Catholic Church, as if Jesus was speaking of the church He built on rock, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", the church which Paul called, "the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth" and saying,
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. —Ephesians 2:19-22
  • Matthew 15:8-9 - This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
  • Mark 7:13 - making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.

Keep in mind that Jesus was instead addressing Jewish Pharisaic hypocrisy inherent in the traditions of the fathers, the very same Jewish traditions of the fathers that Paul rejected. (See commentaries on Galatians 1:14.)
Jewish tradition is not the Christian tradition that Paul praises in 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6; 1  Corinthians 11:2.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:55, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Compare the context of Jewish traditions in Matthew 15:2-6; Mark 7:3-13; 1 Peter 1:18. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:14, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

No, the gospel promises us abounding grace

  • Matthew 15:8-9 - This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
  • Mark 7:13 - making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.

User:Shobson20

The Catholic Church has effectively done the same as the Pharisees in the scripture cited above.

The Pope (and Catholic authority) has taught a different Gospel

Pope Francis has run against Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" [1]

The Catholic authority says "faith and works" but the Bible says "Faith and NOT works." [2][3][4] Romans 11:6 says that adding works into the equation nullifies the concept of grace, therefore, they CANNOT mix. Catholic attempts to use other scripture out of context nullifies the clear meaning of these verses. Here are examples: [5] [6] [7] Those who are saved will do good works and are called to do so, but the works are not what saves. Keep this in mind when reading verses about doing works.

Critical thinking vs appeal to authority

Catholic side of debates relies on appeals to authority from people who happen to agree with the Catholic interpretation regarding the Apostle Peter. However, the Protestant side has used critical thinking to actually compare whether the teachings of the Roman Catholic Magesterium has been consistent with the teachings of Scripture. Mike Winger in the video linked above shows conclusively that Pope Francis has not. James G. McCarthy created a simple Pamphlet detailing how Roman Catholic doctrine is in conflict with the word of God in several places: [8] and authored the longer "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God." [9] Richard Bennett, former Catholic Priest of 20 years details the doctrinal problems and bad fruits of the Catholic Church in Catholicism: East of Eden [10]

"Critical thinking" can be a "tradition of men" too. Colossians 2:8 says, paraphrased, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception OF tradition OF men OF elements OF principles OF the world, rather than OF Christ." VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 21:44, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Catholics leave the Catholic Church when they study scripture for themselves

[11] [12] Historically, most laypeople have been illiterate and did not have direct access to the Bible, so they were dependent on what religious leaders told them. In an era where all of scripture has been translated, anyone can fact-check what their leaders tell them just as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." The congregation must be modern-day Bereans and only submit to church leaders whose teaching are in harmony with the scriptures.

User:RobSmith was raised Catholic, but said in his own talk page:

“ "In parochial school I heard the word read everyday at mass for 8 years, and it didn't square up with what we were taught in catechism and religion class. The priests and nuns couldn't resolve the questions where the Roman Church and bible seemed to be in direct conflict. I wasn't alone in this - I have three brothers and numerous friends who also were confused by the contradictions. In those days Catholic law forbade independent reading of the scripture.

We used to joke about the Assumption of Mary, that Church law and church tradition "assumed" Mary was levitated cause it appears nowhere in the Bible. Image the shock years later when you discover that the joke is literally true."

”

Former Catholic priest Richard Bennett left the Catholic Church when he began to seriously study the Bible: [13]

“ While I had learned earlier that God’s Word is absolute, I still went through this agony of trying to maintain the Roman Catholic Church as holding more authority than God’s Word, even in issues where the Church of Rome was saying the exact opposite to what was in the Bible. How could this be? First, it was my own fault. If I had accepted the authority of the Bible as supreme, I would have been convicted by God’s Word to give up my priestly role as mediator, but that was too precious to me. Second, no one ever questioned what I did as a priest. Christians from overseas came to Mass, saw our sacred oils, holy water, medals, statues, vestments, rituals, and never said a word! The marvelous style, symbolism, music, and artistic taste of the Roman Church were all very captivating. Incense not only smells pungent, but to the mind it spells mystery. ”

Former Catholic nun Alicia Simpson likewise: [14]

“ In due time, I went with a bus from our church. For the first time in my life I found myself in a vast evangelical gathering. I had no idea what was going on. There I saw the words, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”, and I heard for the first time the words, “Ye must be born again.” There was a new way of preaching from the Bible, very different from anything I had ever heard. My interest was truly aroused and questions were arising in my mind. Was there salvation outside the Church of Rome? The preacher said that salvation was obtained through believing in the finished work of Christ at Calvary, not through belonging to any particular church. All my training and indoctrination denied such a possibility. But this preacher kept asking us to repent and come to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Who was right? ”

God's gifts are irrevocable

Romans 11:29-31 "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you." The context is clearly the gift of salvation. an ability to lose salvation makes it revocable. [15]

Yes, gift of the means to run the race well. The gift of the means to fight the good fight. You are starting to follow an "OF tradition OF men OF elements OF principles OF the world" philosophy, instead a faith OF Christ. People try to combine a Christian faith with worldly success and fall grievously. Their faith is forgotten, they fall away and end up hardly saved if it all, when they HAD the means of salvation that they didn't have to lose, because they would have known that nothing could have separated them from the love of Christ. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 22:03, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
In Ephesians 2:8-9 also says that salvation is a gift of God. Adding works to the equation at any point nullifies the concept of Grace (Romans 11:6). You seem to be ignoring what it clearly says there and putting something else in it's place. Works are not unimportant, James 2 makes clear that faith without works calls that faith into serious question at the very least, or at worst, proves that faith is not real (Protestants are often of two minds on the subject). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 shows that good work will survive, but useless work will be burned, but the man will still be saved. Which side are you on, anyway? If you're on the Catholic side, you should post in the Catholic section. Back-and-forth conversations tend to make these pages confusing and hard to follow. Shobson20 (talk) 22:53, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

User:RobSmith

Roman Catholic doctrine denies salvation by grace. In fact, it denies salvation completely. In Roman Catholic doctrine salvation is unattainable in the flesh. Roman Catholic doctrine claims eternal life begins only after death of the flesh. Roman Catholic doctrine teaches all humankind face judgement after death of the flesh. All this is unbiblical. Jesus said,

  • Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

All translations are in the present tense.[2]

Roman Catholic doctrine cannot distinguish between spiritual death and spiritual birth, neither can it distinguish between life in the flesh and life in the spirit. Conservapedia Christianity#Salvation says, "Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, use the phrase born again as a synonym for baptized"; baptism is not repentance. Repentance comes before being born in the spirit or spiritual birth.

Yes, if you do both those things, you have eternal life because you have the means and the motive to get it! VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 20:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

User:VargasMilan

I'm going to regret this, I know, but maybe the presence of SHobson will serve as a buffer to prevent attacks.

Abounding grace but "sufficient for thee?"

This question was introduced by the Catholics before 1300, but this is the subject of the very amphiboly that I pointed out that XavierNishant slipped in that he called an essential of the Church. If one of the "gang of four" introduced the subject of this debate, or one of their confederates, they are undoubtedly continuing this line of attack. As far as I'm concerned they should repent of this deception before anyone proceeds further along this line of argument. But some people won't listen.

A Church Doctor said we can know we have "sufficient grace" by a special revelation. "God by a special privilege reveals this at times to some, in order that the joy of safety may begin in them even in this life, and that they may carry on toilsome works with greater trust and greater energy, and may bear the evils of this present life, as when it was said to Paul (2 Cor. 12:9): "My grace is sufficient for thee."

But the Psalmist fears hidden sins that make other assurances of grace less perfect:

Who can understand sins? From my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord, and from those of others spare Thy servant.—Psalm 18:13

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 19:55, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

See also

References

  1. ↑ Jew and Gentile
  2. ↑ https://biblehub.com/john/5-24.htm
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