Talk:Genocide - Revision history

RobSmith: /* Samantha Power */

2019-06-26T15:19:17Z

Samantha Power

RobSmith: /* Consistency */

2019-06-26T03:11:35Z

Consistency

Learn together: /* Genocide */

2007-12-15T19:37:39Z

Genocide

Iduan: re

2007-12-15T04:46:37Z

Philip J. Rayment: /* Genocide */ Disagree with your defence

2007-12-15T04:16:51Z

Genocide: Disagree with your defence

SSchultz: /* Genocide */

2007-12-15T01:33:56Z

Genocide

SSchultz: /* Consistency */

2007-12-15T01:31:22Z

Consistency

Learn together: Consistency

2007-12-14T07:08:46Z

Consistency

Learn together: /* Genocide */

2007-12-14T07:05:51Z

Genocide

Philip J. Rayment: /* Genocide */ I've been asked to comment

2007-12-14T05:34:16Z

Genocide: I've been asked to comment

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:19, June 26, 2019
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	==Samantha Power==		==Samantha Power==
	This article uses [[Samantha Power]] in the opening as a source? Wow. The same Samantha Power who brought about the [[Libyan holocaust]], resurgence of [[slavery]] in Libya, and the [[European migrant crisis]]. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 23:11, 25 June 2019 (EDT)		This article uses [[Samantha Power]] in the opening as a source? Wow. The same Samantha Power who brought about the [[Libyan holocaust]], resurgence of [[slavery]] in Libya, and the [[European migrant crisis]]. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 23:11, 25 June 2019 (EDT)
		+	:Coincidentally. [https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/john-solomon-damning-samantha-power-e-mails-to-drop-possibly-as-early-as-today/] [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 11:19, 26 June 2019 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:11, June 26, 2019
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	I think the edit that I made was quite clear. Genocide is the killing of civilians in a systematic fashion, rather than being as the result of government policy. This would be more in line with then the internationally accepted position and allow the inclusion of the Srebrenica massacre. Thank you, Learn Together for discussing this in a reasonable manner. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 20:31, 14 December 2007 (EST)		I think the edit that I made was quite clear. Genocide is the killing of civilians in a systematic fashion, rather than being as the result of government policy. This would be more in line with then the internationally accepted position and allow the inclusion of the Srebrenica massacre. Thank you, Learn Together for discussing this in a reasonable manner. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 20:31, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	==Samantha Power==
		+	This article uses [[Samantha Power]] in the opening as a source? Wow. The same Samantha Power who brought about the [[Libyan holocaust]], resurgence of [[slavery]] in Libya, and the [[European migrant crisis]]. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 23:11, 25 June 2019 (EDT)

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 :::::: I'm not convinced that the holocaust denier situation is a valid analogy, because denying that the numbers were near six million is denying that much of it actually happened, not merely whether or not the word "holocaust" applies.  Secondly, the issue as much as anything is why you called him that.  Was it just a technical description of his views or an attempt to denigrate him?  His views had already been spelt out, so putting a label to them, even if accurate, does not add anything.  That and the apparent tone of your comment including your comment about being unwilling to discuss it further with him because of that indicates to me that it was an attempt to denigrate him.  So I stand by my comment that it was out of line, and am taking appropriate action.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:16, 14 December 2007 (EST)
 I 'd like to bring up Rwanda again - as it easily fits the genocide standard: Hutus attempted to annihilate an entire race (Tutsi).--<small>[[User:Iduan|<span style="color: #FFCCCC; background: #660000">I]][[User_talk:Iduan|<span style="color:#CCCCFF; background:#000033">Duan]]</span></span></small> 23:46, 14 December 2007 (EST)
 == Consistency ==

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 ::::: Philip, I appreciate you're willing to hear out my side of the argument, but I stand by labelling Andy as a genocide denier.  For example, there are individuals who admit that the Holocaust did happen, but claim that it was nowhere near 6 million Jews killed, and these individuals are referred to as Holocaust deniers.  Likewise, Andy admits that 8000 men and boys were murdered in Srebrenica, but refuses to call it genocide based on various illogical technicalities.  This makes him a genocide denier.  [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 20:33, 14 December 2007 (EST)
 :::::: I'm not convinced that the holocaust denier situation is a valid analogy, because denying that the numbers were near six million is denying that much of it actually happened, not merely whether or not the word "holocaust" applies.  Secondly, the issue as much as anything is why you called him that.  Was it just a technical description of his views or an attempt to denigrate him?  His views had already been spelt out, so putting a label to them, even if accurate, does not add anything.  That and the apparent tone of your comment including your comment about being unwilling to discuss it further with him because of that indicates to me that it was an attempt to denigrate him.  So I stand by my comment that it was out of line, and am taking appropriate action.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:16, 14 December 2007 (EST)
 == Consistency ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:16, December 15, 2007
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	::::: Philip, I appreciate you're willing to hear out my side of the argument, but I stand by labelling Andy as a genocide denier. For example, there are individuals who admit that the Holocaust did happen, but claim that it was nowhere near 6 million Jews killed, and these individuals are referred to as Holocaust deniers. Likewise, Andy admits that 8000 men and boys were murdered in Srebrenica, but refuses to call it genocide based on various illogical technicalities. This makes him a genocide denier. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 20:33, 14 December 2007 (EST)		::::: Philip, I appreciate you're willing to hear out my side of the argument, but I stand by labelling Andy as a genocide denier. For example, there are individuals who admit that the Holocaust did happen, but claim that it was nowhere near 6 million Jews killed, and these individuals are referred to as Holocaust deniers. Likewise, Andy admits that 8000 men and boys were murdered in Srebrenica, but refuses to call it genocide based on various illogical technicalities. This makes him a genocide denier. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 20:33, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+	:::::: I'm not convinced that the holocaust denier situation is a valid analogy, because denying that the numbers were near six million is denying that much of it actually happened, not merely whether or not the word "holocaust" applies. Secondly, the issue as much as anything is why you called him that. Was it just a technical description of his views or an attempt to denigrate him? His views had already been spelt out, so putting a label to them, even if accurate, does not add anything. That and the apparent tone of your comment including your comment about being unwilling to discuss it further with him because of that indicates to me that it was an attempt to denigrate him. So I stand by my comment that it was out of line, and am taking appropriate action. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:16, 14 December 2007 (EST)

	== Consistency ==		== Consistency ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:33, December 15, 2007
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	:::: This should be discussed on the [[talk:Genocide\|Genocide talk page]], not here. I'm more inclined to go along with your definition, SSchultz, but Andy is not claiming that these things didn't happen, the argument is simply about whether they are classified as Genocide or not. So calling Andy a "genocide denier" is out of line. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)		:::: This should be discussed on the [[talk:Genocide\|Genocide talk page]], not here. I'm more inclined to go along with your definition, SSchultz, but Andy is not claiming that these things didn't happen, the argument is simply about whether they are classified as Genocide or not. So calling Andy a "genocide denier" is out of line. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	::::: Philip, I appreciate you're willing to hear out my side of the argument, but I stand by labelling Andy as a genocide denier. For example, there are individuals who admit that the Holocaust did happen, but claim that it was nowhere near 6 million Jews killed, and these individuals are referred to as Holocaust deniers. Likewise, Andy admits that 8000 men and boys were murdered in Srebrenica, but refuses to call it genocide based on various illogical technicalities. This makes him a genocide denier. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 20:33, 14 December 2007 (EST)

	== Consistency ==		== Consistency ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:31, December 15, 2007
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	We may wish to come to an understanding that includes [[Srebrenica massacre]] as well. As SSchultz has pointed out, the Srebrenica massacre specifically calls the event genocide and has genocide as its category. It appears this is currently inconsistent with the genocide article. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 02:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)		We may wish to come to an understanding that includes [[Srebrenica massacre]] as well. As SSchultz has pointed out, the Srebrenica massacre specifically calls the event genocide and has genocide as its category. It appears this is currently inconsistent with the genocide article. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 02:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	I think the edit that I made was quite clear. Genocide is the killing of civilians in a systematic fashion, rather than being as the result of government policy. This would be more in line with then the internationally accepted position and allow the inclusion of the Srebrenica massacre. Thank you, Learn Together for discussing this in a reasonable manner. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 20:31, 14 December 2007 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:08, December 14, 2007
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	:::: This should be discussed on the [[talk:Genocide\|Genocide talk page]], not here. I'm more inclined to go along with your definition, SSchultz, but Andy is not claiming that these things didn't happen, the argument is simply about whether they are classified as Genocide or not. So calling Andy a "genocide denier" is out of line. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)		:::: This should be discussed on the [[talk:Genocide\|Genocide talk page]], not here. I'm more inclined to go along with your definition, SSchultz, but Andy is not claiming that these things didn't happen, the argument is simply about whether they are classified as Genocide or not. So calling Andy a "genocide denier" is out of line. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	== Consistency ==
		+
		+	We may wish to come to an understanding that includes [[Srebrenica massacre]] as well. As SSchultz has pointed out, the Srebrenica massacre specifically calls the event genocide and has genocide as its category. It appears this is currently inconsistent with the genocide article. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 02:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:05, December 14, 2007
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	This seems a fairly straightforward issue to me. I have seen no definition of genocide outside of this site's article that requires that genocide be carried out by a government. The UN has not defined genocide this way, and the State Department states explicitly that genocide occurred in Bosnia. [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2868.htm] Based on these facts, I think the definition in the article should be corrected, and the Srebrenica massacre should be reinserted as an example of genocide. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 21:45, 13 December 2007 (EST)		This seems a fairly straightforward issue to me. I have seen no definition of genocide outside of this site's article that requires that genocide be carried out by a government. The UN has not defined genocide this way, and the State Department states explicitly that genocide occurred in Bosnia. [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2868.htm] Based on these facts, I think the definition in the article should be corrected, and the Srebrenica massacre should be reinserted as an example of genocide. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 21:45, 13 December 2007 (EST)
	: I've been asked to comment, although this is not something that I have an opinion on. According to my Macquarie Dictionary, Genocide is "extermination of a national or racial group as a planned move". I'll add that legal definitions (as mentioned above) can differ from everyday definitions, and following the links through to the source shows that genocide is defined as it is "For the purpose of this Statute", i.e. it may not correspond exactly with other statutes, other administrations, or everyday use. This does not mean, however, that that legal definition should be totally ignored; it's still one to consider. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 00:34, 14 December 2007 (EST)		: I've been asked to comment, although this is not something that I have an opinion on. According to my Macquarie Dictionary, Genocide is "extermination of a national or racial group as a planned move". I'll add that legal definitions (as mentioned above) can differ from everyday definitions, and following the links through to the source shows that genocide is defined as it is "For the purpose of this Statute", i.e. it may not correspond exactly with other statutes, other administrations, or everyday use. This does not mean, however, that that legal definition should be totally ignored; it's still one to consider. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 00:34, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	: SSchultz, I'm skeptical. The [[UN]] and [[Clinton Administration]] wanted to send "peacekeepers" there, and calling something [[genocide]] is good P.R. to stir up the public. Civil war is not genocide.--[[User:Aschlafly\|Aschlafly]] 21:53, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	::No, Civil War is not genocide, but the calculated collection and slaughter of 8000 Men and Boys simply because they were Bosnian Muslims is genocide. These were civilian non combatants. Moreover, regardless of what the Clinton administration wanted to do, the Bush State Department states that genocide occurred. Please read the included link (SSchultz)
		+
		+	::: Genocide is something more than mass murder, and connotes millions, not thousands. There must be a motivation, and it is ethnic rather than religious.--[[User:Aschlafly\|Aschlafly]] 22:15, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	::::First if you think 8000 people is just plain old mass murder and not genocide, then why does the US recognize it as genocide? Also, I have never seen ethnicity listed as a requirement for genocide. What is your source for this?. The UN defines it as "...acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group..." [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 22:21, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	:::::I tend to have similar concerns to the points that Andy has raised. When the original term genocide was created to refer to the Jewish Holocaust, was the term really meant to be used for regional atrocities? Just because it has been voted on in modern times doesn't necessarily make it so. Small changes in politics could make the Palestinian claim that the Israelis are committing genocide against them pass under the current definitions as well. In the recent shooting where the shooter wrote that he wished to kill as many Christians as possible, we would have to include that as genocide too as it was an attempt to wipe out a group would we not? The treatment of surrending Germans in Stalingrad, the German crackdown on the Warsaw uprising, the Dresden bombings -- all genocide. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 01:35, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	Non UN definitions include "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group" which would imply it's not the numbers, but an attempt to wipe out a group. As for the Bosnian Muslims, were they trying to wipe out all Bosnians? Obviously they weren't trying to wipe out all Muslims. So it's sketchy. That being said, since the Bush administration says it is genocide, I'm more inclined in that direction, but it's iffy either way. [[User:DanH\|DanH]] 22:23, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+	:Bosnians are predominantly Muslim, so the Bosnian Serbs were almost certainly attempting to murder a significant number of Bosnian Muslims. Keep in mind that even before the massacre at Srebrenica the Bosnian Serbs had the city under siege and refused to allow even relief convoys through. They starved the populace so that when they entered in force there would be little resistance and committing the massacre would be easier. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 22:30, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	:: [[Christians]] v. [[Muslims]] strikes me as religious conflict or civil war, not [[genocide]]. The numbers are only slightly bigger than the casualties for [[9/11]]. Was that [[genocide]]? [[9/11]] was mass murder, but I haven't heard people describe it as [[genocide]].--[[User:Aschlafly\|Aschlafly]] 23:54, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	:::No need for a red herring, Andy, you can just come out and say that you're a genocide denier. I really have very little to say to a man who denies genocide. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 00:13, 14 December 2007 (EST)
		+
		+	:::: This should be discussed on the [[talk:Genocide\|Genocide talk page]], not here. I'm more inclined to go along with your definition, SSchultz, but Andy is not claiming that these things didn't happen, the argument is simply about whether they are classified as Genocide or not. So calling Andy a "genocide denier" is out of line. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:08, 14 December 2007 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:34, December 14, 2007
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	This seems a fairly straightforward issue to me. I have seen no definition of genocide outside of this site's article that requires that genocide be carried out by a government. The UN has not defined genocide this way, and the State Department states explicitly that genocide occurred in Bosnia. [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2868.htm] Based on these facts, I think the definition in the article should be corrected, and the Srebrenica massacre should be reinserted as an example of genocide. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 21:45, 13 December 2007 (EST)		This seems a fairly straightforward issue to me. I have seen no definition of genocide outside of this site's article that requires that genocide be carried out by a government. The UN has not defined genocide this way, and the State Department states explicitly that genocide occurred in Bosnia. [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2868.htm] Based on these facts, I think the definition in the article should be corrected, and the Srebrenica massacre should be reinserted as an example of genocide. [[User:SSchultz\|SSchultz]] 21:45, 13 December 2007 (EST)
		+	: I've been asked to comment, although this is not something that I have an opinion on. According to my Macquarie Dictionary, Genocide is "extermination of a national or racial group as a planned move". I'll add that legal definitions (as mentioned above) can differ from everyday definitions, and following the links through to the source shows that genocide is defined as it is "For the purpose of this Statute", i.e. it may not correspond exactly with other statutes, other administrations, or everyday use. This does not mean, however, that that legal definition should be totally ignored; it's still one to consider. [[User:Philip J. Rayment\|Philip J. Rayment]] 00:34, 14 December 2007 (EST)