Talk:Contras - Revision history

TK: /* "overturned on appeal" */

2009-12-01T20:45:47Z

"overturned on appeal"

Yoritomo: /* "overturned on appeal" */ still don't see relevancy to this article

2009-12-01T20:27:12Z

"overturned on appeal": still don't see relevancy to this article

TK: /* "overturned on appeal" */

2009-12-01T17:40:35Z

"overturned on appeal"

Yoritomo: /* "overturned on appeal" */ new section

2009-12-01T04:22:14Z

"overturned on appeal": new section

Tiomono: /* Communist Propaganda? */

2009-06-20T01:57:18Z

Communist Propaganda?

Tiomono: /* Communist Propaganda? */

2009-06-20T01:57:02Z

Communist Propaganda?

Tiomono: /* Genocide is ok when the Contras do it */

2009-06-20T01:47:38Z

Genocide is ok when the Contras do it

Tiomono at 18:17, June 13, 2009

2009-06-13T18:17:16Z

Karajou: Reverted edits by ATIMEFORCHOOSING (Talk); changed back to last version by Kektklik

2008-05-02T05:41:30Z

Reverted edits by ATIMEFORCHOOSING (Talk); changed back to last version by Kektklik

ATIMEFORCHOOSING at 05:32, May 2, 2008

2008-05-02T05:32:55Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:45, December 1, 2009
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	::I still don't see why convictions in the US, overturned or not, are significant to the Nicaraguan Contras. How are the affair's legal repercussions in the US relevant to this article?		::I still don't see why convictions in the US, overturned or not, are significant to the Nicaraguan Contras. How are the affair's legal repercussions in the US relevant to this article?
	::Actually I'd suggest removing mention of Oliver North's current job as well, unless we want to insinuate that Fox News employs supporters of groups we mention under [[Terrorism#Right (Reactionary) Terrorism\|Right Terrorism]] - and even if we wanted to insinuate that, I'd still say this article is not the one to make that point. [[User:Yoritomo\|Yoritomo]] 15:27, 1 December 2009 (EST)		::Actually I'd suggest removing mention of Oliver North's current job as well, unless we want to insinuate that Fox News employs supporters of groups we mention under [[Terrorism#Right (Reactionary) Terrorism\|Right Terrorism]] - and even if we wanted to insinuate that, I'd still say this article is not the one to make that point. [[User:Yoritomo\|Yoritomo]] 15:27, 1 December 2009 (EST)
		+
		+	:::Thank you for calling the Contra addition to the Terrorism article, Yoritomo. They were added by an editor long-ago blocked for being a vandal/parodist/liar. I removed her entry. Oliver North is a great patriot, and his involvement with the Contras isn't at all shameful. --[[User:TK\|'''ṬK''']]<sub><small>/Admin</small></sub><sup>[[User_Talk:TK\|/Talk]]</sup> 15:45, 1 December 2009 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:27, December 1, 2009
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	:That would be faulty logic, Yoritomo. The Pardons merely corrected a wrong, inasmuch as the others were overturned. The correct logical conclusion is the others would have been overturned had they not already pleaded guilty, and the one party would not have been convicted had the reasoning of the appeals judge been applied. --[[User:TK\|'''ṬK''']]<sub><small>/Admin</small></sub><sup>[[User_Talk:TK\|/Talk]]</sup> 12:40, 1 December 2009 (EST)		:That would be faulty logic, Yoritomo. The Pardons merely corrected a wrong, inasmuch as the others were overturned. The correct logical conclusion is the others would have been overturned had they not already pleaded guilty, and the one party would not have been convicted had the reasoning of the appeals judge been applied. --[[User:TK\|'''ṬK''']]<sub><small>/Admin</small></sub><sup>[[User_Talk:TK\|/Talk]]</sup> 12:40, 1 December 2009 (EST)
		+
		+	::I still don't see why convictions in the US, overturned or not, are significant to the Nicaraguan Contras. How are the affair's legal repercussions in the US relevant to this article?
		+	::Actually I'd suggest removing mention of Oliver North's current job as well, unless we want to insinuate that Fox News employs supporters of groups we mention under [[Terrorism#Right (Reactionary) Terrorism\|Right Terrorism]] - and even if we wanted to insinuate that, I'd still say this article is not the one to make that point. [[User:Yoritomo\|Yoritomo]] 15:27, 1 December 2009 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:40, December 1, 2009
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	The article claimed that all convictions relating to the Iran-Contra affair were overturned on appeal. That seems incorrect; at least one convicted person and several others who had pled guilty were pardoned by George H.W. Bush. Since it's also rather irrelevant to the Contras and explained better at the affair article, I've removed all mention of legal repercussions of the affair from this article. [[User:Yoritomo\|Yoritomo]] 23:22, 30 November 2009 (EST)		The article claimed that all convictions relating to the Iran-Contra affair were overturned on appeal. That seems incorrect; at least one convicted person and several others who had pled guilty were pardoned by George H.W. Bush. Since it's also rather irrelevant to the Contras and explained better at the affair article, I've removed all mention of legal repercussions of the affair from this article. [[User:Yoritomo\|Yoritomo]] 23:22, 30 November 2009 (EST)
		+
		+	:That would be faulty logic, Yoritomo. The Pardons merely corrected a wrong, inasmuch as the others were overturned. The correct logical conclusion is the others would have been overturned had they not already pleaded guilty, and the one party would not have been convicted had the reasoning of the appeals judge been applied. --[[User:TK\|'''ṬK''']]<sub><small>/Admin</small></sub><sup>[[User_Talk:TK\|/Talk]]</sup> 12:40, 1 December 2009 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:22, December 1, 2009
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	'''CONCLUSION:''' I can cite many more links. Leftist organizations and main stream media had an agenda. They would not visit "off limits" battlefields and "inaccessible" zones until those zones had been properly prepared by their Sandinista minders. Draw your own conclusions. [[User:Tiomono\|Tiomono]] 14:17, 13 June 2009 (EDT)		'''CONCLUSION:''' I can cite many more links. Leftist organizations and main stream media had an agenda. They would not visit "off limits" battlefields and "inaccessible" zones until those zones had been properly prepared by their Sandinista minders. Draw your own conclusions. [[User:Tiomono\|Tiomono]] 14:17, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
		+
		+	== "overturned on appeal" ==
		+
		+	The article claimed that all convictions relating to the Iran-Contra affair were overturned on appeal. That seems incorrect; at least one convicted person and several others who had pled guilty were pardoned by George H.W. Bush. Since it's also rather irrelevant to the Contras and explained better at the affair article, I've removed all mention of legal repercussions of the affair from this article. [[User:Yoritomo\|Yoritomo]] 23:22, 30 November 2009 (EST)

@@ Line 35: / Line 35: @@
 ChristianDemocracy. Pope John Paul II defrocked Ernesto Cardenal. Cardinal Obando y Bravo courageously supported the Contras in their fight for justice for the campesinos in spite of constant Sandinista threats and censorship. Read this article by Obando y Bravo
-"The Sandinistas Gagged and Bound Us". The Contras were true Christians sacrificing for their people and their God. And yes, for Democracy.  [http://www.fatima.org/crusader/cr21/cr21pg03.asp]
+"The Sandinistas Gagged and Bound Us". The Contras were true Christians sacrificing for their people and their God. And yes, for Democracy.  [http://www.fatima.org/crusader/cr21/cr21pg03.asp] [[User:Tiomono|Tiomono]] 21:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
 ==Lincoln bold==

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:57, June 20, 2009
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	THE CONTRAS HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY ENGAGED IN THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR, MUCH LIKE THE AUC IN COLOMBIA DO TODAY --[[User:ChavezFan\|ChavezFan]] 16:25, 29 October 2007 (EDT)		THE CONTRAS HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY ENGAGED IN THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR, MUCH LIKE THE AUC IN COLOMBIA DO TODAY --[[User:ChavezFan\|ChavezFan]] 16:25, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
		+
		+	ChristianDemocracy. Pope John Paul II defrocked Ernesto Cardenal. Cardinal Obando y Bravo courageously supported the Contras in their fight for justice for the campesinos in spite of constant Sandinista threats and censorship. Read this article by Obando y Bravo
		+	"The Sandinistas Gagged and Bound Us". The Contras were true Christians sacrificing for their people and their God. And yes, for Democracy. [http://www.fatima.org/crusader/cr21/cr21pg03.asp]

	==Lincoln bold==		==Lincoln bold==

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:47, June 20, 2009
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	:The article doesn't seem to be a glowing review of the Contras, and, in fact, is quite harsh in some areas. You'll find on a whole that the use of the word genocide in these situations isn't going to help your cause. What happened in Germany during World War II was genocide. What happened in Armenia during World War I was genocide. In modern usage, the term is thrown around so much in such a watered down form that it is insulting to those who were true victims of systematic extermination. In the U.S. Civil war, both the north and the south had cases of atrocities. But no one would say that the north was committing genocide on the south or the south was committing genocide on the north. War is brutal and change often comes with elements of cruelty attached, but it is not genocide. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 12:26, 11 June 2007 (EDT)		:The article doesn't seem to be a glowing review of the Contras, and, in fact, is quite harsh in some areas. You'll find on a whole that the use of the word genocide in these situations isn't going to help your cause. What happened in Germany during World War II was genocide. What happened in Armenia during World War I was genocide. In modern usage, the term is thrown around so much in such a watered down form that it is insulting to those who were true victims of systematic extermination. In the U.S. Civil war, both the north and the south had cases of atrocities. But no one would say that the north was committing genocide on the south or the south was committing genocide on the north. War is brutal and change often comes with elements of cruelty attached, but it is not genocide. [[User:Learn together\|Learn together]] 12:26, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
		+
		+	NimChimpsky, see my links below in the facts/conclusions section. I spent 3 1/2 years in Nicaragua in 80s. You need to explain why if the Contras were the ones murdering civilians, the Sandinistas had to resort to internment camps for the campesinos, why all the hundreds of thousands of refugees told the same story of Sandinista abuses, and why in the internationally monitored election in 1990, in spite of every advantage of controlling army, secret police and state run media did the Contra candidate win by the biggest landslide in the history of Nicaraguan elections? Why did the Catholic Church overtly support Contras? If there was any doubt, look at behavior of Resistance Commandos since the war vs. the FSLN campaign of corruption, intimidation, murder of political opponents and recent internationally condemned theft of 2008 municipal elections. Elections to which Ortega refused international observers having been burnt by that in 1990. Please visit Nicaragua and talk to any campesino over 40 as to what took place in that war. [[User:Tiomono\|Tiomono]] 21:47, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

	== Changes ==		== Changes ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:17, June 13, 2009
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	==Lincoln bold==		==Lincoln bold==
	The final external link has an extra pair of brackets around it.. and the term isn't bolded. -^_^- [[User:Kektklik\|Fuzzy]] 11:00, 27 February 2008 (EST)		The final external link has an extra pair of brackets around it.. and the term isn't bolded. -^_^- [[User:Kektklik\|Fuzzy]] 11:00, 27 February 2008 (EST)
		+
		+	==This sparse page on Contras doesn't even begin to tell the facts==
		+	I'll come back and edit it sometime. The fact is the Commandos of the Nicaraguan Resistance enjoyed overwhelming campesino
		+	support in every region of Nicaragua except for the big cities where we never got anything going thanks to murderous State Security
		+	gestapo. Contras had the Piricuacos (Ejercito Unpopular Sandinista) army on the run after Reagan's $100 mil aid package which included red-eyes to shoot down the Russian Hind-D helicopters. Fear of another lethal aid package had the Piris("Mad Dog" the only term I ever heard used by campesinos for the "Sandinistas") running to Jimmmy Carter, Oscar Arias and George Bush to negotiate themselves out of military defeat. Following the sellout of the Nicaraguan Resistance, Violetta Chamorro, the Contra candidate, won the 1990 election by biggest margin in history of presidential elections. 55-41% even though refugees outside Nicaragua, all pro-UNO were not allowed to vote and campesinos were only given 24 hourse to register. Else Contras would have won vote by 70-30% no doubt.
		+
		+	'''FACT:''' 23,000 Contras were demobilized. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ONUCA_and_ONUSAL]
		+
		+	'''CONCLUSION:''' The majority had to be campesinos. Somoza only had 6k guardia at peak. By any ONUCA or UN count, there were 10 times as many ex Sandinista as ex Guardia members in Contra ranks. The Contras were campesinos. Period.
		+
		+	'''FACT:''' By 1987 Contras operated in absolutely every corner of Nicaragua except for the big cities.[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DB1130F931A35751C0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all][http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEFDF153DF931A15751C1A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all][http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4D61F3EF930A15754C0A961948260&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/U/United%20States%20International%20Relations]
		+
		+	'''CONCLUSION:''' They couldn't have operated in all corners from Zelaya Sur, Rio San Juan, through Chontales, Matagalpa, Jinotega east to Atlantic Coast and north to Rio Coco and recieved undetected air drops from loud DC-6 cargo planes without OVERWHELMING campesino support.
		+
		+	'''FACT:''' The Sandinistas resorted to "Relocation Camps" for the campesinos. The forced relocation, often accompanied by destruction of homes, happened both in the North [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,965513,00.html] and the South [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DB1330F934A25755C0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all] and occurred over multiple years. Sometimes the "Relocation" was accompanied by wholesale slaughter,torture and aerial bombardment as happened during the razing of Miskito villages along the Rio Coco.[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE5D9173BF93AA15754C0A960948260]
		+
		+	'''CONCLUSION:''' Contras enjoyed such huge support among the campesinos, the Sandinistas had to "relocate" them by force to internment camps
		+
		+	'''FACT:''' The Sandinistas by early 1988 were reduced to rounding up teenagers in movie theaters and on city buses to fill their admitted 30,000/year conscription quota. This led to spontaneous uprisings of civilian mothers in Managua and Masaya [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE5DD1330F93BA15751C0A96E948260][http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7D71030F937A3575BC0A96F948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all]
		+
		+	'''INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION:''' The Sandinistas were getting their butts kicked militarily and were desperately scrounging for bullet catchers. The overwhelming majority of Nicaraguans had had enough of the Sandinistas authoritarian regime by 1988. Imagine how the anti-Resistance posters on this page would have treated prospects for military success if George Bush had done this for Iraq or Afghan wars. Facts are facts. This fact is great starting point when subject of Contras military momentum in 1987 & early 88 comes up.
		+
		+	'''FACT:''' In the 1990 elections, in spite of only giving campesinos 24 hours to register to vote in a country where the majority had to walk or ride mules to register and had no phones or electricity, the ANTI-SANDINISTA candidate Violetta Chamorro won by a landslide. [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDF173DF934A15751C0A966958260]
		+
		+	'''CONCLUSION:''' The media bias predicting just the opposite result was in stark contrast to the LANDSLIDE decision of Nicaraguans at the polls to vote for Democracy over Communist authoritarianism. Brokaw, Jennings, Koppel all smugly predicted Sandinista victory. Jennings had to go on air and issue red-faced apology for being "terribly wrong". "Terribly wrong" sums up many of the posts on this wiki page. [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n5_v42/ai_8782349/pg_1]
		+
		+	'''FACT:''' Witness For Peace and similar organizations to this day require indoctrination of their "witnesses" before, during and after visiting Nicaragua according to their own current web page.[http://www.witnessforpeace.org/article.php?list=type&type=112]
		+
		+	'''CONCLUSION:''' I can cite many more links. Leftist organizations and main stream media had an agenda. They would not visit "off limits" battlefields and "inaccessible" zones until those zones had been properly prepared by their Sandinista minders. Draw your own conclusions. [[User:Tiomono\|Tiomono]] 14:17, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:41, May 2, 2008
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	==Lincoln bold==		==Lincoln bold==
	The final external link has an extra pair of brackets around it.. and the term isn't bolded. -^_^- [[User:Kektklik\|Fuzzy]] 11:00, 27 February 2008 (EST)		The final external link has an extra pair of brackets around it.. and the term isn't bolded. -^_^- [[User:Kektklik\|Fuzzy]] 11:00, 27 February 2008 (EST)
−
−	~~== expanding article ==~~
−
−	I think it would be a great service to this section to include the different Contra forces as to not conflate the counter-revolutionaries as homogeneous. Can we add something about the Milpistas (the peasantry, who formed the ranks of the FDN), Misquito resistance on the East coast led by Fagoth after his release from a Sandinista prison, or Eden Pastora, leader of ARDE in the South?[[User:ATIMEFORCHOOSING\|ATIMEFORCHOOSING]] 01:32, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:32, May 2, 2008
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	== expanding article ==		== expanding article ==

−	I think it would be a great service to this section to include the different Contra forces as to not conflate the counter-revolutionaries as homogeneous. Can we add something about the Milpistas (the peasantry, who formed the ranks of the FDN), Misquito resistance on the East coast led by Fagoth after his release from a Sandinista prison, or Eden Pastora, leader of ARDE in the South?	+	I think it would be a great service to this section to include the different Contra forces as to not conflate the counter-revolutionaries as homogeneous. Can we add something about the Milpistas (the peasantry, who formed the ranks of the FDN), Misquito resistance on the East coast led by Fagoth after his release from a Sandinista prison, or Eden Pastora, leader of ARDE in the South?[[User:ATIMEFORCHOOSING\|ATIMEFORCHOOSING]] 01:32, 2 May 2008 (EDT)