Helpless babies and sinners - Revision history

Dataclarifier: added statement based on 2 Pt 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish

2019-11-04T08:03:52Z

added statement based on 2 Pt 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish

Dataclarifier: move sentence saying that faith is not found in "these passages" - should be immediately after the scriptures cited and linked

2019-11-04T07:56:37Z

move sentence saying that faith is not found in "these passages" - should be immediately after the scriptures cited and linked

Dataclarifier: added word "both" to avoid impression that there is a theological controversy between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and a separate doctrinal position - no - both Catholicism and Orthodoxy differ from Protestants on salvation with their Reform/Arminian divide

2019-11-04T07:53:34Z

added word "both" to avoid impression that there is a theological controversy between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and a separate doctrinal position - no - both Catholicism and Orthodoxy differ from Protestants on salvation with their Reform/Arminian divide

Dataclarifier: linked Bible refs first sentence - some revision including "the pagan groping in the darkness of ignorant unbelief without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ"

2019-10-31T04:22:40Z

linked Bible refs first sentence - some revision including "the pagan groping in the darkness of ignorant unbelief without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ"

Dataclarifier: minor revision specifying doctrinal debates between denominations

2019-10-23T14:14:22Z

minor revision specifying doctrinal debates between denominations

Dataclarifier: further adaptation

2019-10-23T13:55:03Z

further adaptation

Dataclarifier: adapted as article ""Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible are discussed in Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35"

2019-10-23T13:29:26Z

adapted as article ""Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible are discussed in Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35"

New page

'''"Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible''' are discussed in Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35. This directly relates to the subject of [[Salvation]] and [[Infant baptism]].

Consider the argument that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. </ref>

The word "[[faith]]" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God saves them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word <ref>[http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/5-26.htm Ephesians 5:26]</ref>.

==See also==
[[Salvation: declarational salvation and ontological salvation]]

[[Invincible ignorance]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[category:Christianity]]
[[category:Catholic Church]]
[[category:Orthodox Church]]
[[category:Protestantism]]

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of both [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation together, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the pagan groping in the darkness of [[Ignorance|ignorant unbelief]] without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ, and the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet [http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."]
-Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. </ref>
+Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, and that God is not willing that any should perish, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35%2C2+Peter+3%3A9&version=KJV;RSVCE;NIV 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35; 2 Peter 3:9]. </ref>
 ==See also==

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 '''"Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible''' are discussed in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16&version=RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A12-19&version=RSVCE and Romans 5:12-19]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11&version=RSVCE Romans 5:6-11] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A31-39&version=RSVCE and 8:31-39]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13&version=RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22&version=RSVCE and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10%3A35&version=RSVCE and John 10:35]. This directly relates to the subject of [[Salvation]] and [[Infant baptism]].
 The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of both [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation together, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the pagan groping in the darkness of [[Ignorance|ignorant unbelief]] without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ, and the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet [http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."]
 Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. </ref>
 ==See also==

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 '''"Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible''' are discussed in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16&version=RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A12-19&version=RSVCE and Romans 5:12-19]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11&version=RSVCE Romans 5:6-11] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A31-39&version=RSVCE and 8:31-39]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13&version=RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22&version=RSVCE and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10%3A35&version=RSVCE and John 10:35]. This directly relates to the subject of [[Salvation]] and [[Infant baptism]].
-The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the pagan groping in the darkness of [[Ignorance|ignorant unbelief]] without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ, and the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet [http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."]
+The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of both [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation together, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the pagan groping in the darkness of [[Ignorance|ignorant unbelief]] without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ, and the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet [http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."]
 Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. </ref>

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-'''"Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible''' are discussed in Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35. This directly relates to the subject of [[Salvation]] and [[Infant baptism]].
+'''"Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible''' are discussed in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16&version=RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A12-19&version=RSVCE and Romans 5:12-19]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11&version=RSVCE Romans 5:6-11] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A31-39&version=RSVCE and 8:31-39]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13&version=RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22&version=RSVCE and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10%3A35&version=RSVCE and John 10:35]. This directly relates to the subject of [[Salvation]] and [[Infant baptism]].
-The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
+The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the pagan groping in the darkness of [[Ignorance|ignorant unbelief]] without any real knowledge of the Gospel of Christ, and the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet [http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."]
 Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. </ref>

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 '''"Helpless" babies and sinners in the Bible''' are discussed in Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35. This directly relates to the subject of [[Salvation]] and [[Infant baptism]].
-The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] / [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]], and the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] argument that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
+The [[Theology|theological]] [[controversy]] between the [[doctrine]] of [[Catholic Church|Catholicism]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodoxy]] on salvation, and the doctrinal position on salvation represented by the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] division between [[Reformed Churches|Reformation Theology]] and [[Arminianism]], is rooted in [[the Gospel]] [[argument]] that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" <ref> [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. </ref> No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope <ref> [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] </ref> Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
 Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the Christian belief that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <ref> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. </ref>