Debate: Infant baptism - Revision history

RobSmith: /* Cruel doctrine */ Template anchor

2020-08-20T15:52:04Z

Cruel doctrine: Template anchor

RobSmith: /* See also */

2020-08-09T01:45:51Z

See also

RobSmith: /* See also */

2020-08-05T19:03:13Z

See also

RobSmith: /* See also */

2020-08-04T17:03:27Z

See also

RobSmith: See also

2020-08-02T21:31:56Z

See also

VargasMilan: /* Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject? */ reply

2020-05-08T03:58:56Z

Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject?: reply

RobSmith: /* Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject? */

2020-05-08T03:34:28Z

Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject?

VargasMilan: /* Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject? */ reply

2020-05-08T03:01:59Z

Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject?: reply

RobSmith: /* Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject? */

2020-05-08T01:13:13Z

Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject?

VargasMilan: /* Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject? */ gramm.

2020-05-07T23:56:22Z

Is there really a need for rancorous debate on this subject?: gramm.

@@ Line 1,606: / Line 1,606: @@
 :Any preaching on salvation that ignores these verses is a good example of [[Cafeteria Christianity]]  and of[[confirmation bias]].
+{{Anchor|The Body of Christ, the Savior of the world}}
 ;The Body of Christ, the Savior of the world
 *Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21

@@ Line 1,822: / Line 1,822: @@
 ==See also==
 *[[Debate:Does the Catholic Church have the biblical authority of Christ Himself to preach and to teach the truth forever?‎‎]]
 *[[Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day‎‎]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:03, August 5, 2020
Line 1,826:		Line 1,826:
	*[[Debate: Is the Magisterium infallible?]]		*[[Debate: Is the Magisterium infallible?]]
	*[[Debate: Explain the apparent inconsistency between Ex. 33:11 and Jn. 1:18]]		*[[Debate: Explain the apparent inconsistency between Ex. 33:11 and Jn. 1:18]]
		+	*[[Debate:Is Holy Communion the True Body and Precious Blood of Jesus Christ]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:03, August 4, 2020
Line 1,825:		Line 1,825:
	*[[Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day‎‎]]		*[[Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day‎‎]]
	*[[Debate: Is the Magisterium infallible?]]		*[[Debate: Is the Magisterium infallible?]]
		+	*[[Debate: Explain the apparent inconsistency between Ex. 33:11 and Jn. 1:18]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:31, August 2, 2020
Line 1,820:		Line 1,820:
	:::::::Here's a good opportunity for application of the word:'' if any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you''; ''knock, and it shall be opened''. The word itself doesn't need external teaching to interpret. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 23:34, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		:::::::Here's a good opportunity for application of the word:'' if any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you''; ''knock, and it shall be opened''. The word itself doesn't need external teaching to interpret. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 23:34, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
	::::::You never know. Sometimes reasoning from the scriptures may have a practical application. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:58, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		::::::You never know. Sometimes reasoning from the scriptures may have a practical application. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:58, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
		+
		+	==See also==
		+	*[[Debate:Does the Catholic Church have the biblical authority of Christ Himself to preach and to teach the truth forever?‎‎]]
		+	*[[Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day‎‎]]
		+	*[[Debate: Is the Magisterium infallible?]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:58, May 8, 2020
Line 1,819:		Line 1,819:
	::::::Sure, it's a matter of faith, not knowledge, but maybe wisdom isn't acquired in any other way. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:01, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		::::::Sure, it's a matter of faith, not knowledge, but maybe wisdom isn't acquired in any other way. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:01, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
	:::::::Here's a good opportunity for application of the word:'' if any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you''; ''knock, and it shall be opened''. The word itself doesn't need external teaching to interpret. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 23:34, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		:::::::Here's a good opportunity for application of the word:'' if any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you''; ''knock, and it shall be opened''. The word itself doesn't need external teaching to interpret. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 23:34, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
		+	::::::You never know. Sometimes reasoning from the scriptures may have a practical application. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:58, 7 May 2020 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:34, May 8, 2020
Line 1,818:		Line 1,818:
	:::::It's all just theological stuff, kinda like the Muslim Imams who write fatwas on having sex with a menstruous woman. Salvation isn't gained by scholarship, neither is it denied for lack of scholarship. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 21:13, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		:::::It's all just theological stuff, kinda like the Muslim Imams who write fatwas on having sex with a menstruous woman. Salvation isn't gained by scholarship, neither is it denied for lack of scholarship. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 21:13, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
	::::::Sure, it's a matter of faith, not knowledge, but maybe wisdom isn't acquired in any other way. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:01, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		::::::Sure, it's a matter of faith, not knowledge, but maybe wisdom isn't acquired in any other way. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:01, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
		+	:::::::Here's a good opportunity for application of the word:'' if any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you''; ''knock, and it shall be opened''. The word itself doesn't need external teaching to interpret. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 23:34, 7 May 2020 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:01, May 8, 2020
Line 1,817:		Line 1,817:
	::::I wanted to be explicit and make sure that "outward sign" part was included because it couldn't be left out. The rite of baptism is understood as an indispensible part of the faith, and with the creed, what holds the faith community together. The word Aquinas actually uses is "sacrament", for which there is a whole doctrine discussing and defining it, but sacraments are received in hope of their efficacy as part of the whole faith. But if there is an insuperable obstacle to receiving the sacrament, it then depends on your willingness, so long as it is unmixed with "hatred of religion". [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 19:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		::::I wanted to be explicit and make sure that "outward sign" part was included because it couldn't be left out. The rite of baptism is understood as an indispensible part of the faith, and with the creed, what holds the faith community together. The word Aquinas actually uses is "sacrament", for which there is a whole doctrine discussing and defining it, but sacraments are received in hope of their efficacy as part of the whole faith. But if there is an insuperable obstacle to receiving the sacrament, it then depends on your willingness, so long as it is unmixed with "hatred of religion". [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 19:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
	:::::It's all just theological stuff, kinda like the Muslim Imams who write fatwas on having sex with a menstruous woman. Salvation isn't gained by scholarship, neither is it denied for lack of scholarship. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 21:13, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		:::::It's all just theological stuff, kinda like the Muslim Imams who write fatwas on having sex with a menstruous woman. Salvation isn't gained by scholarship, neither is it denied for lack of scholarship. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 21:13, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
		+	::::::Sure, it's a matter of faith, not knowledge, but maybe wisdom isn't acquired in any other way. [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 23:01, 7 May 2020 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:13, May 8, 2020
Line 1,816:		Line 1,816:
	:::I guess it all hangs on what Aquinas means by "outward sign". I'd read his summary phrase to say the "infant can receive spiritual regeneration by Christ through grace by outward sign". It's a soft sell, comforting for parents to hear, but has no bearing on an infant's salvation. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 18:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		:::I guess it all hangs on what Aquinas means by "outward sign". I'd read his summary phrase to say the "infant can receive spiritual regeneration by Christ through grace by outward sign". It's a soft sell, comforting for parents to hear, but has no bearing on an infant's salvation. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 18:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
	::::I wanted to be explicit and make sure that "outward sign" part was included because it couldn't be left out. The rite of baptism is understood as an indispensible part of the faith, and with the creed, what holds the faith community together. The word Aquinas actually uses is "sacrament", for which there is a whole doctrine discussing and defining it, but sacraments are received in hope of their efficacy as part of the whole faith. But if there is an insuperable obstacle to receiving the sacrament, it then depends on your willingness, so long as it is unmixed with "hatred of religion". [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 19:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)		::::I wanted to be explicit and make sure that "outward sign" part was included because it couldn't be left out. The rite of baptism is understood as an indispensible part of the faith, and with the creed, what holds the faith community together. The word Aquinas actually uses is "sacrament", for which there is a whole doctrine discussing and defining it, but sacraments are received in hope of their efficacy as part of the whole faith. But if there is an insuperable obstacle to receiving the sacrament, it then depends on your willingness, so long as it is unmixed with "hatred of religion". [[User:VargasMilan\|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan\|talk]]) Thursday, 19:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
		+	:::::It's all just theological stuff, kinda like the Muslim Imams who write fatwas on having sex with a menstruous woman. Salvation isn't gained by scholarship, neither is it denied for lack of scholarship. [[User:RobSmith\|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith\|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 21:13, 7 May 2020 (EDT)

@@ Line 1,815: / Line 1,815: @@
 ::Aquinas: Infants aren't capable of the movement of free choice, [but if they are loved, and are treated with enough patience, they have the calmness for the movement of choice to begin as well as the shaping of justice as is about to be described].  God moves the infant to justice [through the guardians, as understood by the guardians' faith, and led by their hope in Christ], by outward sign, allowing the infant to be baptized.  The [leading hope in Christ by] outward sign is necessary because original vice is not willed by the infant, but is from carnal generation, and the infant is justified from it [by the shaped movements of justice, as described, through leading hope], and neither is grace (or favor at Christ's expense), but [by the shaped movements of justice, as described, through leading hope,] the infant can receive spiritual regeneration by Christ through grace. [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Thursday, 18:12, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
 :::I guess it all hangs on what Aquinas means by "outward sign". I'd read his summary phrase to say the "infant can receive spiritual regeneration by Christ through grace by outward sign".  It's a soft sell, comforting for parents to hear, but has no bearing on an infant's salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 18:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
-::::I wanted to be explicit and make sure that "outward sign" part was included because it couldn't be left out.  The rite of baptism is understood as an indispensible part of the faith, and with the creed, what holds the faith community together.  The word Aquinas actually uses is "sacrament", for which there is a whole doctrine discussing and defining with it, but sacraments are received in hope of their efficacy as part of the whole faith.  But if there is an insuperable obstacle to receiving the sacrament, it then depends on your willingness, so long as it is unmixed with "hatred of religion". [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Thursday, 19:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
+::::I wanted to be explicit and make sure that "outward sign" part was included because it couldn't be left out.  The rite of baptism is understood as an indispensible part of the faith, and with the creed, what holds the faith community together.  The word Aquinas actually uses is "sacrament", for which there is a whole doctrine discussing and defining it, but sacraments are received in hope of their efficacy as part of the whole faith.  But if there is an insuperable obstacle to receiving the sacrament, it then depends on your willingness, so long as it is unmixed with "hatred of religion". [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Thursday, 19:54, 7 May 2020 (EDT)