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https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Wikignome72 Conservapedia - User contributions [en] 2026-11-02T07:23:18Z User contributions MediaWiki 1.35.14 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=John_Kerry&diff=1732399 John Kerry 2021-02-20T11:26:29Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>{{Officeholder<br /> |name=John Kerry<br /> |image=John-kerry.jpg‎<br /> |party=[[Democrat]]<br /> |spouse=Julia Thorne (divorced)<br/>Teresa Heinz<br /> |religion=[[Roman Catholic]]<br /> |offices= {{Officeholder/secretary (cabinet)<br /> |of=State<br /> |state=United States<br /> |number=68th<br /> |deputy=[[William Joseph Burns]]<br /> |deputy=[[Tony Blinken]]<br /> |governor=<br /> |president=[[Barack Hussein Obama]]<br /> |terms=February 1, 2013 – January 20, 2017<br /> |preceded=[[Hillary Clinton]]<br /> |former=n<br /> |succeeded=[[Rex Tillerson]]<br /> }}<br /> {{Officeholder/senator<br /> |state=Massachusetts<br /> |terms=January 2, 1985 – January 30, 2013<br /> |preceded=[[Paul Tsongas]]<br /> |former=n<br /> |succeeded=[[Mo Cowan]] (placeholder)<br /> }}<br /> }}<br /> '''John Forbes Kerry''', born December 11, 1943 (age {{age|1943|12|11}}), is the [[Biden junta]] climate czar. He formerly was the 68th [[United States Secretary of State]] and formerly served as a U.S. Senator from [[Massachusetts]] since 1984; he was considered one of the more [[liberal]] senators.<ref>http://nationaljournal.c om/voteratings/sen/lib.htm</ref><ref>http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/sen/cons.htm</ref> In the [[United States presidential election, 2004|2004 Presidential election]], he ran an unsuccessful bid for the [[President of the United States of America|presidency]] as the [[Democrat Party]]'s nominee, losing to [[Republican Party|Republican]] incumbent president [[George W. Bush]]. Kerry was a former Chairman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He became extremely wealthy through his second marriage and was spotted cruising on his luxury boat near [[Nantucket]] during the [[Egypt]]ian crisis the summer of 2013, which the [[Obama Administration]] initially denied even after being shown a picture that proved it.<br /> <br /> Kerry's military service in the [[Vietnam War]] has been tainted with his subsequent distortion of facts regarding his tour of duty which was exposed during the 2004 presidential election.<br /> <br /> Kerry was a potential "[[dark horse]]" nominee for the [[Democrat Party]] in 2020, if none of the contenders could obtain a majority to win the nomination. However, [[Joe Biden]] was able to seal it. As the [[leftwing]] [[junta]] climate czar, Kerry announced in 2021 that the planet has only 9 years before the climate apocalypse.<ref>https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/19/john-kerry-says-9-years-left-until-climate-catastrophe/</ref><br /> <br /> ==Military career ==<br /> Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Naval Reserve in February 1966 and began active service that August as Ensign aboard the USS Gridley, a Guided Missile Frigate deployed in the [[Gulf of Tonkin]]. During his tour of duty, Kerry requested his second tour be in Vietnam, listing his preferred position as commanding a Fast Patrol Craft (PCF) or "Swift Boat." His request was granted, and on November 17, 1968, he reported to Cam Ranh Bay for a month of training. <br /> <br /> The Swift Boats had been considered to be a safe place to be during the war, but during that time their role was changed to become more dangerous and combat oriented. During his few months of service, Kerry recommended himself for the [[Silver Star]], the [[Bronze Star]], and three [[Purple Heart]]s. After his third minor injury, he was permitted to request reassignment as per Navy instruction 1300.39 and felt Vietnam on April 2, 1969, less than 5 months after arriving. <br /> <br /> Upon returning stateside, he served as personal aide to Rear Admiral Walter Schlech until March 1970 when his active duty obligation had ended. Kerry continued serving in the Naval Reserves until February 1972.<br /> <br /> ===Vietnam record===<br /> [[Image:437px-The New Soldier.jpg|right|thumb|Kerry's book, ''The New Soldier'' with [[VVAW]] activists flying the American flag upside down.]]<br /> Marine Corps Maj. Michael E. McBride wrote in Townhall.com, Mr. Kerry "has always had the power to clear up any of the Swiftboater challenges; all he had to do is allow the Navy to distribute unaltered copies of his service record, medical records, and DD214. It is essential that these records come from [[Department of Defense]], so that they cannot be tampered with by Kerry or his supporters. The DOD copies are the true copies of record and the only viable evidence for these matters." Maj. McBride, citing Mr. Kerry's long reluctance to do, so goes on to write, "it is unlikely that any credible evidence exists to refute the base charges of the Swiftboaters."<br /> <br /> He concludes, "If any of my ex-squadron mates dumped on me like the Swift boat vets are dumping on Kerry, my records would have been available the next day ... ." <ref>https://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080104/COMMENTARY/847826179&template=nextpage</ref><br /> <br /> Kerry also claimed on multiple occasions to have been in [[Cambodia]] during the Christmas of 1968. When his claim was shown to be very improbable, his subordinates agreed that he was incorrect, but stated he was still there at a later time—a claim that likewise is considered to be dubious.<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40056</ref><br /> <br /> An internal memorandum for Attorney General John Mitchell from a Nixon staffer released by the National Archives in July 2007 revealed the [[Nixon]] White House had considered recruiting John Kerry. The memorandum states in part, <br /> {{Cquote|He was asked the direct question of how he voted in 1968. He said "if he had voted (which he did not), he would have voted for Nixon." <ref>[http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/virtuallibrary/documents/donated/042671_chotiner.pdf Memo from Chotiner to Mitchell], April 26, 1971.</ref> }}<br /> <br /> ===Allegations against fellow veterans===<br /> [[File:Winter Soldier inquisition.jpg|thumb|275px|right|Sen. [[Edward M. Kennedy]] with John Kerry during the so-called [http://www.wintersoldier.com/index.php?topic=NewSoldier "Winter Soldier Investigation"].]]<br /> Upon returning from Vietnam, Kerry joined [[Vietnam Veterans Against the War]] (VVAW), and became a chief spokesman for the anti-war movement.<br /> <br /> Controversially referring to US servicemen in Vietnam before Sen. [[William Fulbright]]'s Foreign Affairs Committee as having been sent "''to die for the biggest mistake in history''," Kerry alleged that the military had "''created a monster''" in the form of violence-prone American soldiers, and recounted that soldiers had personally recollected stories of having "''personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads''," of Vietnamese citizens and rampaging across Vietnam "''[razing] villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan''".<ref>[http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html John Kerry's Testimony before the Senate Foerein Relations Committee, April 22, 1971], Editorial Notes by Dr. Ernest Bolt, University of Richmond.</ref> That these acts were "''not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command''." <ref>Ibid.</ref><br /> <br /> On NBC's ''Meet The Press'' in 1971, Kerry was asked whether he had personally committed atrocities in Vietnam. He responded:<br /> {{Cquote|''There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 caliber machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the [[Geneva Convention]]s and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are [[war criminal]]s.''"<ref>[http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html Vietnam 30 Years later: What John Kerry Said on Meet the Press], George Mason University, History News Network</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==2004 Presidential election==<br /> :''Main article:'' [[United States presidential election, 2004]]<br /> During his 2004 campaign for President, several groups were formed, most notably the [[Swift Boat Veterans for Truth|Swift Vets and POWs for Truth]],<ref>[http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php Swift Vets and POWs for Truth]</ref> to counter the charges of "[[war crimes]]" Kerry repeatedly made against Vietnam veterans (see below) and to call Kerry's military record into question, accusing him of inflicting his own wounds,<ref>[http://www.learnedhand.com/kerryunfitepilogue.htm John Kerry - Unfit For Command]</ref> going to unusual lengths to obtain his Purple Hearts,<ref>[http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/FD040830.html ''Forging a Paper Hero: The Mystery of Kerry’s Medals]</ref> and attacking unarmed civilians. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had been criticized, firstly because no member of the group served on the actual boat that Kerry commanded and secondly for perceived contradiction. As an example, Kerry's commanding officer, George Elliott, signed an affidavit for the Swift Boat veterans claiming that with the information he had now, he would not have recommended Kerry for the military honor, but later repudiated his affidavit, stating that Kerry had deserved the honor.<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/]</ref> In 2006, after the election bid, he proceeded to appear on ''[[Real Time with Bill Maher]]'', and proceeded to joke about assassinating President Bush where he said, in response to Bill Maher's comment about he could have gone to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone, "Or, I [Kerry] could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.", with him being shameless enough in the joke that he posted it on his own website. As further indication of [[Liberal bias]], this joke was ignored by the mainstream media, despite their demanding a [[Secret Service]] investigation on GOP senator [[Jesse Helms]] for a similar joke regarding then-President [[Bill Clinton]] in 1994.<ref>http://maroonedinmarin.blogspot.com/2006/10/john-kerry-jokes-about-assassinating.html</ref> Similarly, the joke was also largely ignored, yet, when [[Ted Nugent]] inferred during a press conference that he'd end up either "dead or in jail" if Obama asked him to serve in the military, the latter ended up sending the [[Secret Service]] to pay Nugent a visit.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5HE26mMmkQ</ref><br /> <br /> ===Violation of election laws===<br /> In 2007 the [[Federal Election Commission]] fined the Kerry campaign $1.3 million for spending more than federal rules allow during his 2004 Presidential bid. In order to receive public funds, Kerry, a former Democrat senator from Massachusetts, and his running mate, former North Carolina Sen. [[John Edwards]], agreed to spend $74.6 million or less on their general election campaign against President Bush.<ref>https://www.politico.com/news/stories/0507/4269.html</ref><ref>[https://www.fec.gov/agenda/2007/mtgdoc07-37.pdf Agenda Document No. 07-37], Federal Election Commission, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2007.</ref> In 2009 the FEC fined a [[George Soros]]-backed group $775,000 for its unregulated spending during the 2004 election on behalf of [[Democrat]]s, including Democratic Presidential candidate John F. Kerry.<ref>https://www.cbsnews.com/2100-501563_162-3222390.html</ref><br /> <br /> ==Iraq War==<br /> :''Main article:'' [[Operation Iraqi Freedom|Iraqi war]]<br /> Kerry voted to give President George W. Bush the authority to go to [[Iraq War|war with Iraq]] in 2002, although in his 2004 Presidential bid he campaigned as being opposed to the war, and later said regarding his vote to give the President that authority, "There's nothing - nothing - in my life in public service I regret more, nothing even close. We should all be willing to say: I was wrong, I should not have voted for the Iraq War Resolution." <ref>https://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kerry/mistakes-and-responsibili_b_31482.html</ref> Kerry's initial vote on the matter and subsequent revision on the topic caused many to label him a "flip-flopper" during his 2004 presidential bid.<ref>[http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040716-083945-7626r.htm Kerry’s skewed priorities], ''The Washington Times'', July 16, 2004.</ref><br /> <br /> ===Comments on service in Iraq===<br /> On October 30, 2006, eight days before the 2006 elections, Kerry was a headline speaker at a campaign rally being held for unsuccessful Democrat [[California]] gubernatorial candidate Phil Angelides at Pasadena City College in Pasadena, California. Speaking to an audience composed mainly of college students, Kerry said, "<br /> {{Cquote|You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.}}<br /> After being criticized by President Bush and other leaders, in an effort to be funny Kerry stated "Let me make it crystal clear, as crystal clear as I know how. I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy." <br /> <br /> After two days, Kerry wrote an apology on his [[blog]], claiming to be sorry if anyone 'misinterpreted his comments'.<br /> <br /> ==Secretary of State==<br /> From 2013 to 2017, Kerry was the Secretary of State of the United States of America. In his office he supported the opposition in the [[Syrian Civil War]] and wanted to attack [[Bashar al-Assad]], but [[Russia]] could persuade him.<ref>http://frontpagemag.com/2013/joseph-klein/russia-and-iran-roll-over-john-kerry/</ref> <br /> <br /> After the [[Egypt]]ian military has set down elected President [[Mohamed Morsi]], Kerry said that the army had "restored democracy".<ref>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23543744</ref><br /> <br /> Kerry called [[Russia]] an "Authoritarian Country".<ref>https://www.cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/curtis-kalin/reset-kerry-calls-russia-authoritarian-country</ref><br /> <br /> On December 28, 2016, just a few weeks before the [[Trump Administration]] was to take office and a few days after the leftist Obama Administration allowed an anti-[[Israel]] resolution to pass the [[United Nations|UN]] and break decades of policy, Kerry gave a major 72-minute<ref>Hanchett, Ian (December 28, 2016). [https://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/12/28/nbcs-neely-kerry-speech-firing-a-flare-across-israel-he-wanted-to-give-it-for-some-time-but-wh-blocked-it/ NBC’s Neely: Kerry Speech ‘Firing a Flare’ ‘Across Israel’ He Wanted To Give It ‘For Some Time’ But WH Blocked It]. ''Breitbart''. Retrieved December 28, 2016.</ref> speech viciously attacking Israel and paying worthless lip-service to American "support" for the nation.<ref>Pollak, Joel B. (December 28, 2016). [https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/12/28/kerry-on-israel-peace-un-resolution/ Kerry Attacks Israeli Government, Defends UN Resolution]. ''Breitbart''. Retrieved December 28, 2016.</ref> Israeli Prime Minister [[Benjamin Netanyahu]] responded harshly but appropriately to the Administration's blatant betrayal.<ref>Key, Pam (December 28, 2016). [https://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/12/28/netanyahu-i-must-express-my-deep-disappointment-with-john-kerry-israelis-do-not-need-to-be-lectured/ Netanyahu: ‘I Must Express My Deep Disappointment’ With Kerry — ‘Israelis Do Not Need To Be Lectured’]. ''Breitbart''. Retrieved December 28, 2016.</ref> Other world leaders, such as [[United Kingdom]] Prime Minister [[Theresa May]], also criticized Kerry.<ref>Pollak, Joel B. (December 29, 2016). [https://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/12/29/theresa-may-even-britain-pro-israel-obama-kerry-now/ Theresa May Criticizes Kerry for Anti-Israel Speech]. ''Breitbart''. Retrieved January 6, 2017.</ref><br /> <br /> ===Rosemont Seneca Partners===<br /> :{{See also|Ukrainian collusion}}<br /> Hunter Biden, Joe Biden's son, and Christopher Heinz, [[John Kerry]] stepson, formed Rosemont Seneca Partners, a private equity firm in 2009 with their friend, Devon Archer. The three friends established a series of related [[LLC]]s.<ref>Including Rosemont Seneca Partners, LLC, Rosemont Seneca Technology Partners, and Rosemont Realty.</ref> It was anchored to Rosemont Capital, the alternative investment fund of the Heinz family fortune.<ref>The Heinz Ketchup family fortune.</ref> The fund grew quickly. According to an email revealed as part of a [[Securities and Exchange Commission]] investigation, Rosemont described themselves as “a $2.4 billion private equity firm co-owned by Hunter Biden and Chris Heinz,” with Devon Archer as “Managing Partner.”<br /> <br /> Archer was convicted in [[Manhattan]] Federal Court for the fraudulent issuance and sale of more than $60 Million of tribal bonds.<ref>https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/three-convicted-manhattan-federal-court-fraudulent-issuance-and-sale-more-60-million</ref><br /> <br /> ===China===<br /> :{{See also|Chinese Communist Party}}<br /> Five months into the [[Obama administration]] in June 2009 Hunter Biden and Chris Heinz, stepson of Senate Foreign Relations Committee chair [[John Kerry]] formed Rosemount Seneca. The firm partnered with the Thornton Group run by James Bulger, and the Bank of China, to form [[Bohai Harvest RST]] (BHR) in China. Devon Archer is a longtime friend of former Secretary of State [[John Kerry]] and of stepson Chris Heinz and James Bulger, the nephew of notorious Boston gangster "Whitey" Bulger. [[Whitey Bulger]] was the head of the [[Boston]] Irish [[mafia]] who enjoyed federal protection under FBI director [[Robert Mueller]] as an informant.<ref>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335614/Trial-Boston-mob-boss-James-Whitey-Bulger-gets-underway-family-victims-say-look-eye.html</ref> Bulger was convicted of 19 murders that occurred while under Mueller's protection; some have linked the Bulger klan to as many as 52 murders while Mueller ran the Boston FBI field office.<ref>https://www3.bostonglobe.com/metro/1970/01/19/one-lingering-question-for-fbi-director-robert-mueller/613uW0MR7czurRn7M4BG2J/story.html?arc404=true</ref> Whitey Bulger was murdered in prison at the age of 89 a few months before the Mueller Report was released.<br /> <br /> The Bank of China is owned by the Chinese government and closely connected with the [[PLA|Chinese military]] and intelligence services. Biden, Heinz, and Archer transferred and sold "duel use" technology to the Chinese military which was used to create the Chinese [[drone]] program and replicate the Chinese version of the [[F-15]] fighter.<ref>https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/inside-the-shady-private-equity-firm-run-by-kerry-and-bidens-kids/</ref><br /> <br /> Bohai Harvest RST (BHR) invested in an app the Chinese leftwing communist government is using to surveil ethnic minority [[Muslim]]s in western China. Over one million Muslims living in the region are now incarcerated in Chinese [[gulag]]s.<br /> <br /> ===Ukraine===<br /> :{{See also|Biden-Ukraine scandal}}<br /> In December 2015 ''[[The New York Times]]'' reported on ''Joe Biden, His Son and the Case Against a Ukrainian Oligarch.'' The story focuses on Hunter Biden, Burisma Holdings, and its owner, [[Mykola Zlochevsky]], who was Ukraine's ecology minister under former President [[Viktor F. Yanukovych]] before he was forced into exile.<ref>https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html</ref><br /> <br /> U.S. banking records show Hunter Biden's American-based firm, Rosemont Seneca Partners LLC, received regular transfers into one of its accounts — usually more than $166,000 a month — from Burisma from spring 2014 through fall 2015, during a period when Vice President Biden was the main U.S. official dealing with Ukraine and its tense relations with Russia. [[Vice President]] Joe Biden threatens Ukrainian President [[Petro Poroshenko]] that the [[Obama administration]] would pull $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees, sending the former Soviet republic toward insolvency, if it didn't immediately fire Prosecutor General [[Viktor Shokin]] who was investigating his son, Hunter Biden, on the board of the Ukrainian oil and gas company Burisma Holdings. Joe Biden recounted, "'You’re not getting the billion'. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: ‘I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money...Well, [SOB], he got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."<ref>https://www.cfr.org/event/foreign-affairs-issue-launch-former-vice-president-joe-biden</ref><ref>https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/436816-joe-bidens-2020-ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived</ref><br /> <br /> The status of an independent Ukraine became the focus of much [[fake news]] reporting by the ''[[Washington Post]]'' to drive a wedge between President [[Donald Trump]]'s efforts to improve relations with the [[Russian Federation]] following the disastrous [[foreign policy]] of President [[Barack Obama]], which created a "zone of chaos" throughout the [[Middle East]], [[North Africa]], and the Caucus region.<br /> <br /> ===Senate investigation===<br /> Senate investigators concluded,<br /> {{quotebox|The records acquired by the Committees show that [[Hunter Biden]] and his family were involved in a vast financial network that connected them to foreign nationals and foreign governments across the globe. Hunter Biden and Archer, in particular, formed significant and consistent financial relationships with the corrupt oligarch [[Mykola Zlochevsky]] during their time working for Burisma and their firms made millions of dollars from that association while Joe Biden was vice president and the public face of the Obama administration’s Ukraine policy. Rosemont Seneca Thornton, an investment firm co-founded by Hunter Biden, received $3.5 million in a wire transfer from Elena Baturina, who allegedly received illegal construction contracts from her husband, the former mayor of Moscow. Moreover, Archer’s apparent receipt of money for a car from Kenges Rakishev of [[Kazakhstan]] while Vice President Biden was in Kyiv is especially concerning in light of the timing. And finally, Biden and Archer’s work with Chinese nationals connected to the Communist regime illustrate the deep financial connections that accelerated while his father was vice president and continued after he left office. <br /> <br /> Biden and Archer found willing partners in Chinese nationals connected to the Communist regime. Their work in China began at least in 2009, with the creation of Rosemont Seneca Partners with [[Chris Heinz]], Secretary of State John Kerry’s stepson. Then, several years later, Biden and Archer formed [[BHR]] with Bohai Capital and received their business license approval in China shortly after Biden visited China with his father, Vice President Biden. <br /> <br /> Hunter Biden’s connections and financial associations appear to have accelerated significantly after he associated himself with [[Ye Jianming]], who had deep connections with the Communist regime and [[PLA]]. However, that didn’t seem to have any impact on Hunter Biden, who made millions from the relationship. Indeed, Hunter Biden and his family, to include James and Sara Biden, associated with other Chinese nationals such as Gongwen Dong. In one case, the three of them went on a $100,000 global spending spree after Gongwen Dong and Hunter Biden opened a joint account. In addition, Hunter Biden received millions of dollars over a period of years from Gongwen Dong’s companies. According to records acquired by the Committees, many of these transactions involved potential criminal financial activity.<ref>[https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC_Finance_Report_FINAL.pdf Hunter Biden, Burisma, and Corruption: The Impact on U.S.Government Policy and Related Concerns], U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, September 23, 2020, p. 84.</ref>}}<br /> No record of Hunter Biden filing as a lobbyist or agent of a foreign power under the FARA Act exists.<ref>https://uncoverdc.com/2020/09/26/when-did-hunter-biden-and-associates-file-as-foreign-agents-under-the-fara-act/</ref><br /> <br /> ==Later life==<br /> In May 2018, Kerry was caught engaging in "shadow diplomacy" with Iranian and European officials in an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to save the [[Iran nuclear deal]] that he helped negotiate in 2015, a possible violation of the [[Logan Act]].<ref>Multiple references:<br /> *Shaw, Adam (May 5, 2018). [https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/05/05/john-kerry-under-fire-for-reported-shadow-diplomacy-to-save-iran-deal.html John Kerry under fire for reported 'shadow diplomacy' to save Iran deal]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved May 8, 2018.<br /> *Stracqualursi, Veronica (May 7, 2018). [https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/05/politics/john-kerry-iran-deal/ John Kerry engaging in shadow diplomacy to salvage Iran deal: The Boston Globe]. ''CNN''. Retrieved May 8, 2018.<br /> *Hayward, John (May 5, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2018/05/05/report-former-secretary-of-state-john-kerry-working-with-iran-to-save-nuclear-deal/ Report: John Kerry Engaging in ‘Shadow Diplomacy’ with Iran to Save Nuclear Deal]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved May 8, 2018.<br /> See also:<br /> *Singman, Brooke (May 8, 2018). [https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/05/08/trump-warns-kerry-to-stay-away-from-iran-negotiations-ahead-crucial-announcement.html Trump warns Kerry to 'stay away' from Iran negotiations ahead of crucial announcement]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved May 8, 2018.<br /> *Boyer, Dave; Miller, S.A. (May 7, 2018). [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/7/trump-kerry-possibly-illegal-private-talks-iran/ Trump slams Kerry over ‘possibly illegal’ private talks with Iran]. ''The Washington Times''. Retrieved May 8, 2018.</ref><br /> <br /> ==Books by John Kerry==<br /> * John Kerry, [http://www.freekerrybook.org/documents/THENEWSOLDIERPHOTOS_000.PDF ''The New Soldier''], edited by David Thorne, Macmillan Pub Co (October 1971). ISBN 002073610X <br /> <br /> ==See also==<br /> *[[Previous Breaking News/John Kerry|Articles about '''John Kerry''' from previous "Breaking News"]]<br /> *[[Marc Elias]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> *[http://frontpagemag.com/2013/steven-plaut/john-kerrys-sympathy-for-terrorism/ John Kerry’s Pro-Terror Swiftboating]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4phB-_pXDM&feature=youtu.be Audio Recording - John Kerry Admits President Obama Intentionally Armed ISIS in Syria]<br /> <br /> {{DEFAULTSORT:Kerry, John}}<br /> [[Category:Former United States Senators]]<br /> [[Category:Democratic Party]]<br /> [[Category:United States Appointed Officials]]<br /> [[Category:Obama Cabinet]]<br /> [[Category:110th United States Congress]]<br /> [[Category:111th United States Congress]]<br /> [[Category:112th United States Congress]]<br /> [[Category:Irish-Americans]]<br /> [[Category:Failed Presidential Candidates]]<br /> [[Category:United States Veterans]]<br /> [[Category:Massachusetts]]<br /> [[Category:Abortion Advocates]]<br /> [[Category:2004 Presidential Candidates]]<br /> [[Category:United States Secretaries of State]]<br /> [[Category:Liberals]]<br /> [[Category:Anti Second Amendment]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:LT/mail&diff=1686237 User:LT/mail 2020-09-13T21:39:57Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Re: Checkmate atheist */</p> <hr /> <div><big><big><big><big><span class="plainlinks"><center>'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Liberaltears/mail&action=edit&section=new Click here to post a new message]'''</center></span></big></big></big></big><br /> <br /> <div style="background: #F9F9F9; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: .3em;"><br /> <br /> === Please read this ===<br /> The editor using the [[User:Liberaltears]] will be checking this message area. You can leave a message in the message area below.<br /> <br /> If you want to provide feedback concerning content created using the User: Liberaltears account at Conservapedia, please use the talk pages of the respective articles. <br /> <br /> If you need assistance sooner, there is a list of Conservapedia administrators [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=sysop HERE]<br /> </div><br /> <br /><br /> <br /> __TOC__<br /> <br /> Hi Liberal Tears. I saw the page: https://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Unofficial_2020_Senate_predictions. Let me know if you would like to collaborate on similar predictions for the presidential election - state by state, we can look at the best polls and simulate electoral college totals.<br /> <br /> God Bless. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 15:03, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :That does sound like a great idea! Do you want to start the page for the presidential election predictions by state? --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User talk:Liberaltears|Your reminder that Biden committed quid pro joe]]'''''</sup> 15:14, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> I'd love to, LT. Though I'm not sure what would be the right title? Shall I call it, "Conservapedia:Unofficial 2020 Presidential election predictions"? [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 15:25, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :That's a great suggestion, and I would personally remove the capitalization for "Presidential". --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User talk:Liberaltears|Your reminder that Biden committed quid pro joe]]'''''</sup> 15:29, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Also, since the presidential election is technically one election divided in 51 (fifty states plus DC), I would remove the "s" from "predictions". --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User talk:Liberaltears|Your reminder that Biden committed quid pro joe]]'''''</sup> 15:31, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Great! It's done: https://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Unofficial_2020_presidential_election_predictions this is going to be an exciting project! I hope it's good to start off with. If we need to make any editions, and for future additions, I hope we can make it there. God Bless. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 15:35, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Post your message below ==<br /> Liberaltears, I set up your talk page in a way that will prevent vandalism to your talk page and I locked it. <br /> <br /> You can see what I did at: [[User talk:Liberaltears]].<br /> <br /> If you didn't like what I did, you can get an admin to revert it.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 22:33, 7 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Liberal Tears, I'm going to create a Table (first in Excel, then later, if it is good, we'll add it to the article) with Columns "State, Electoral college votes, 2016 result, 2016 popular vote tally, projected 2020 result, projected 2020 popular vote tally". Do you think that is workable? If you have an email id, I will share it with you on Excel when it is done. And if you like it, I will make the table here in the article. Thoughts? [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 15:45, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Sorry for not responding earlier. So I'm not exactly sure about having it shared to me via Excel, do you think you can mention your thoughts on the project talk page? --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User talk:Liberaltears|Your reminder that Biden committed quid pro joe]]'''''</sup> 23:19, 14 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> No worries. I'll post it there when it's done. God Bless [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 11:15, 15 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Alright. And God bless you too! --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|Just say no to quid pro joe!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Free Roger Stone!]]'''''</sup> 11:19, 15 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hi. Can you take a look at the page? I got popular vote, electoral vote data for 2016 for all 50 states. I just filled in for 10 states. Do you want me to fill for the remaining forty? I believe the final tally was 307-230. So once 2016 is done, we'll do for 2020 similarly based on projections. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 13:53, 15 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I saw your edits, and they seem great! About the remaining forty, I may perhaps do some, as my focus is largely on the Senate elections. Unfortunately, I have some other problems at the moment, and it may be harder to do as much CP editing as I usually do as of right now. --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|Just say no to quid pro joe!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Free Roger Stone!]]'''''</sup> 14:02, 15 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hey, thanks for the quick reply. Glad you like it; I can finish the 50, no problem, if that's cool with you. I have all the data on my computer. You can edit it afterward for any corrections. For the next 50, the 2020 predictions, when you're free next time, we can put our heads together. Based on the cumulative polling, we can arrive at the closest projections possible, drawn from the latest data. Thanks for all your efforts, I've seen many of the great articles you've authored or edited for Conservapedia. The election can be so close, you never know. A Presidential election may be won by a single state. Then think how glad we'll be on Nov. 3rd for all our efforts! Similarly a single seat more in the senate may give us the key vote necessary for very important legislation. Our liberal friends will weep, and we will laugh, when it comes to that! [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 14:14, 15 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hi again LT. Have you any thoughts or data on how we can estimate likely numbers of the electorate in each state? Last time it was close to 140 Million, this time they say it'll be over 155 million nationwide. I'll finish filling in some of the college votes for states in some time. Since most are winner take all, that's relatively easier to project, at least in states where there is a clear majority. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 12:38, 16 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Unfortunately, I dunno much about estimating the hard numbers. I'm not entirely sure where to gather the data on voter registration, and I tend to focus more on the general likeliness of certain states to vote either [[Republican]] or [[Democrat]] based on the incumbent officeholders, their popularity, enthusiasm, etc, their opponent(s), as well as trends and polling. --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|Just say no to quid pro joe!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Free Roger Stone!]]'''''</sup> 13:43, 16 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> No worries. I'm sure we'll get there in the end. We have 5 1/2 months to spur interest and hopefully have an impact on voter turnout. I think turnout will be key for Repbulicans this time. I'll be adding a bit more to the article from time to time. This is a liberal site, but it mentions the likely increase in turnout in 2020: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/06/2020-election-voter-turnout-could-be-record-breaking/591607/ Some 10 million voters voted for a third party candidate who had no chance of winning. We should try to discourage that by emphasizing that that is foolish. If Trump wins anything like 80 million votes overall, I'm sure he will pull through successfully. Dems are worried many new voters will vote for him. <br /> <br /> One possible method of proceeding would be seeing what polls were saying last election around this time. If they indicated roughly the same numbers we see now, and the ratio of voters in the state was e.g. 60% Trump, we can estimate it will be around the same. The net increase in voting population for each state will have to be factored in. Those are just some preliminary thoughts to proceed, we'll figure out the number-crunching as we go on. God bless. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 14:00, 16 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hello again. Made three important changes thus far, on California, Texas and Ohio. Also computed provisional totals with Trump at 74 and Biden at 55 (California) with 7 states computed so far. Arizona is still uncertain, and is a toss-up as you mentioned in the comment. We'll get down to more exact predictions later on, combining everything from support, enthusiasm, expectation etc. Let's try to fill the easier states with clearer outcomes first. I'll be continuing and let you know if anything in particular comes up or I have any question. Hope you are well. God Bless. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 11:52, 17 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hello Liberal Tears. Hope you are well. Been busy with other things for a while, but just updated the numbers for Oklahoma, not based on a poll, but based on the massive enthusiasm for the Trump Rally there. I think Trump will carry the state with great ease, especially in light of 2016 numbers. Also, I was thinking - it's estimated there will be a 10% increase in turnout overall in 2020, close to around 150 million votes overall. So, as a beginning strategy for estimating numbers in each and every state, do you think starting out with 10% increases on 2016 numbers for both candidates would be a good way to begin? If you agree, please let me know. I can do it on Excel and will copy it to Conservapedia after that. God Bless. <br /> <br /> By way of example, if Trump got 1 million votes and Clinton 400 K in a state, we will project, if all else is same, Trump 1.1 M and Biden as 440 K. Progressive adjustments will be made to the number after that, in light of new data, if polling or enthusiasm etc suggsts it is required.[[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 22:38, 17 June 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Good analysis, NishantXavier! In regards to your question about voter turnout, I suppose adding 10% is a good place to start, though I don't know too much about projecting such. To make good predictions on that, I would really attention to primary turnout numbers, as I've mentioned in an example [[Talk:Main_Page#Two_important_highlights...|here]]. By the way, can you also see if you can add any good analyses to [[Conservapedia:Unofficial 2020 Senate predictions|this prediction page]] as well if you have time? While there are certain things I can catch up on right now, I don't exactly have the sufficient time to add major updates yet, and it may take two weeks before I finish up some annoying tasks I'm occupied with currently. Thanks! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 22:59, 17 June 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hi again Liberal Tears. I changed the 1 million thing since it didn't materialize; it was a liberal prank. Anyway, analyzing the primaries is a great suggestion. Would you happen to have primary information in a readily accessible source? I will definitely take a look, and try to improve, the predictions for the Senate elections too when I have time. I'm closely following the Senate races and as we know they were very important for the Supreme Court. God Bless. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 00:31, 22 June 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :For all primary election information this year, I recommend using [https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/ this (browse to the bottom of the page for state by state)], although I should note the only problem is that no hard number of votes are given for unopposed candidates. Also, about the Senate races, here are five quick "pop quiz"-style questions if you want to answer them for fun:<br /> <br /> # Which Democrat-held seat is nearly guaranteed to flip?<br /> # Why might [[John Hickenlooper]] lose the upcoming [[Democrat]] primary in vying to challenge [[Cory Gardner]]?<br /> # Why is [[Steve Daines]]' seat vulnerable despite running for re-election in a solid red state?<br /> # Who are the mainstream Democrats cheering on to challenge [[Mitch McConnell]]?<br /> # Should current polling with low sample sizes be absolutely trusted? (Hint: they were wrong in 2016)<br /> <br /> :—[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 00:59, 22 June 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Thanks, Liberal Tears. I've completed 13 States and plan to do about 2-3 states daily. So I should be finished in another 12-18 days if I keep up to that; maybe by the end of the month. The polls are a little tricky for some of the reasons you mention. I think rally size in the state and "enthusiasm" of voters recorded in the polls may be better gauges. For e.g. there is a huge enthusiasm gap between Trump and Biden in some states. Anyway, I plan to have delegates for all 50 states awarded based on projections by Aug 3 so we have 3 months to see how it pans out. Arriving at final numbers for each state will be a little more difficult; but I will begin with adding 10% and then use some of the suggestions you mentioned as well. We'll see how that goes. That should be done by next month end. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 11:30, 8 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Okay, thank you NishantXavier! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 12:23, 9 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hello again Liberal Tears. Congratulations to you on all your hard work for Conservapedia, and for being promoted! You truly deserve it! I really pray for great things for Conservapedia in the years to come, that OUr Good Lord Jesus will use this Encyclopedia mightily for His Cause, to promote the Gospel and the Conservative worldview, throughout the world. <br /> <br /> Anyway, just wanted to congratulate you, and to note that, since I also can now use the other time as well, I should be able to complete 5 states a day. So in about 5-6 days now (quite the increase from the 12-18 earlier!) I should be completing all 50 states, and then we can discuss further on the improvements you suggested and any change of delegates as well.<br /> <br /> Hope all is well.<br /> In Jesus and Mary,<br /> Nishant Xavier. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 01:41, 10 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Thanks NishantXavier, and congratulations in regards to your promotion as well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 01:45, 10 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Thanks, Liberal Tears! Btw, I completed 30 states! So it looks like we're ahead of schedule. I should be able to do 40 tomorrow, and complete it the day after that. So we were thinking of Aug 3rd, but now it'll be done by July 13th. That's good. I wanted to ask your opinion on the Arizona poll. It sounds like good news. Do you think it suggests President Trump has a solid ground game in the state? Poll: https://d2pggiv3o55wnc.cloudfront.net/oann/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Arizona-OANN-June-28-2020-v3.pdf [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 11:23, 11 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Hi NishantXavier, nice job on your work for the predictions! And thanks for reminding me about that Gravis/[[OANN]] poll, I'm thinking about potentially doing an essay on thoroughly analyzing it sometime. I've seen most of the data there, and I unfortunately have some high suspicions due to the low sample size, high margin of error at ±4.3%, and under-sampling of 2016 Hillary voters. However, I think there were several parts they probably got right; for one, the 2016 [[Gary Johnson]] voters may be more inclined to vote for Trump this year. Also, some interesting side notes:<br /> <br /> :*if Republicans are doing this well with Asian voters, then no wonder the Democrats are panicking and resorting to desperate race-baiting tactics amidst the [[CCP pandemic]], such as whining over jokes like "kung flu"<br /> :*If McSally actually wins a majority of the black vote, it will become much harder for Kelly to win the general election<br /> :*unlike what liberals are spewing in mocking the poll simply because they see "OANN", the latter group only paid for it to be conducted by Gravis Marketing<br /> :*there is a chance that Sen. McSally may lose the Republican primary in early August because her opponent there is telling voters that she's somehow a swampy [[establishment]] "RINO"<br /> <br /> :—[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 11:51, 11 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hi Liberal Tears, thanks for the feedback. As an Asian who has worked for American companies, I know many Indian-Americans who support Trump. "President Trump is incredibly grateful for the widespread support he has received from the people of India and from millions of Indian-Americans across the United States. https://www.wionews.com/world/donald-trump-is-grateful-for-indian-americans-support-white-house-309041 I think most Americans of whatever background are attracted by the proposition of Making America Great Again and not attracted by the opposition's policies. <br /> <br /> I'm at 34 states now, hope to finish 40 by end of today. Can I ask, how is the Senate election predictions coming along? Are there 33 Senate seats up for election this year, if I recall right?<br /> <br /> Also, another thing, I want to start a Project Page for Conservapedia's own "Project 100 Million" i.e. websites dedicated to winning 100 million souls for Christ over the next decade. Network 211, on which Conservapedia has reported, has one such plan. But we have had more page visits than they do! If they can do it, then we can and will too! [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 05:14, 12 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> With 50 state results, and 33 Senate seats, let's aim to get at least 80% correct results! We'll then have some 65 entries for Conservapedia proven right! Will be difficult, as that is a high target, but it can be done. Let's get to work and be motivated to complete this, rejoicing on election day when the race is over, and the results turn out well by God's Grace. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 05:34, 12 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Hi NishantXavier, I unfortunately will not be able to get to any updates on the Senate/House elections until I get out of the way some tedious work I currently have to be occupied with in my life. I already got one rather annoying part done, and there are two parts left that I need to finish. That's why for now, I have mostly worked on some other topics throughout [[CP]] here and also went on talk pages somewhat too much. I know that there's obviously the Senate election in [[Colorado]] that I need to update since it's now after the primary, as well as primaries for House elections in many states. If you have the time right now, do you suppose you could add updates for the unofficial Senate predictions page [[Conservapedia:Unofficial_2020_Senate_predictions|here]]? It's fine if you don't, it's just that right now hasn't been the best time for me to get to those. Also, about the number of Senate elections, there are 33 normal elections and two special elections (one in [[Arizona]] and one in [[Georgia]]). Thank you and God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 11:35, 12 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hi Liberal Tears. I've finished 46 out of 50 states. Trump is winning 325 to 188 XD. So that's awesome. I just have to complete a few others. 2 are liberal states. I'll complete them today or tomorrow. So we have ample time after that. I finished 4 or 5 of the Senate seats. Do you think we should try to predict the primary winner; I believe Susan Collins' opponent will be decided on 14th. For two others, I have. I'll have to think about this and decide whether to do so or not on this third later. Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks and God Bless. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 00:24, 14 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :So for Maine in the Democrat primary, the party establishment has hand-picked [[Sara Gideon]], so she's most likely going to win by a large margin over the other candidates. When it comes to primaries for the Senate elections, it's important to remember that the two big ones to watch for are the ones for Alabama (which is tomorrow, and will decide whether Sessions or Tuberville is the nominee to face Doug Jones) and Arizona; for the latter, I made [[Talk:Main_Page#McSally_primary_challenger|this relevant post here]], which unforunately no one else responded to. Hope this helps, and God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 00:52, 14 July 2020 (EDT<br /> <br /> Right, LT. One other thing. Can you tell me how to add a user box, "this user has more than 500 edits. I tried adding yours, but I think it automatically took the number 2500 instead of 500. Does every 500 have a different userbox or will the same suffice? [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 08:46, 14 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Sorry for not responding to this sooner. So with the way I used that userbox, you start with <code><nowiki>{{Userbox|</nowiki></code>. Then enter in the word for the color you want the left cell to be. So if you want a gray color like I did for the one on my user page, then add <code><nowiki>gray|</nowiki></code>, and you should now have <code><nowiki>{{Userbox|gray|</nowiki></code>. Next, specify the color you want for the right cell. Assuming that you want it to be white as I did for mine, it should now look like this: <code><nowiki>{{Userbox|gray|white|</nowiki></code>. Next, add in the text you want to appear on the left side, add another vertical bar (no space needed), and finally add in the text you want to appear on the right side. So it seems that you want your userbox to be <code><nowiki>{{Userbox|gray|white|500+|This user has made over 500 edits to [[Conservapedia]].}}</nowiki></code> Hope this helps NishantXavier! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 14:31, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Thanks, Liberal Tears. I added it as 750. Thanks for your help on all this. I also saw the improvements to the Senate election predictions page. Looks great. I'm almost done with the presidential election, just some finishing touches remain. Then we can really get down to analyzing both the mainstream media projection and arrive at Conservapedia's own projection for each state in the presidential and senate election races. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 17:40, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Alright, awesome! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 17:46, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> All 50 states done in presidential election! Please review and see if anything needs to be added. Senate elections are next. We should be done in 3 to 4 days for those as well. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 05:01, 16 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Alright, I just reviewed what you did for the presidential election predictions by state, and they seem great! I would note that Nevada and New Hampshire have a strong chance of favoring Trump this time around; Trump only barely lost New Hampshire in 2016, and with Republican [[Chris Sununu]] being the governor of the state and holding a high popularity there, that could potentially carry Trump over the finish line. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 10:43, 16 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Project 150 Million Souls for Christ the King in the next 10 to 15 years ==<br /> <br /> Hi Liberal Tears. On Conservapedia, we now have a project: https://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:150_Million_Souls_for_Christ_the_King dedicated to sharing our testimonies for Christ our King. We would like thousands of people to sign up on Conservapedia and share their testimony - it can be a brief testimony, however long or short; from a few sentences to several paragraphs - and it would be great if longstanding members could give their support to this project. Andy approved of the project and asked me to create the page, as I did. Could you help us? The Bible tells us the day is coming one day when every knee will bow and acknowledge Jesus as King. And Christ Our Lord also tells us that everyone who confesses Him before men, He Himself will confess before His Father in heaven, so that we will be saved, because Jesus our Advocate pleads for us. Kindly consider giving your testimony. Thank you. In Our Lord Jesus, Nishant X. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 07:20, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Hi NishantXavier, I added my story [[Conservapedia:150_Million_Souls_for_Christ_the_King#Liberaltears.27_story|here]]. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 12:23, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS!! Really, I'm so grateful to you, Liberal Tears, and I'm sure Our Lord Jesus is as well. May Our Good Lord amply and richly reward you for your courageous testimony for Him, with every abundant blessing in this life, and with life everlasting in the world to come in eternity. God Bless you. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 17:42, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :You're welcome, and God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]]'''''</sup> 17:46, 15 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Thanks==<br /> Thanks for reverting the latest string of rubbish. I was again distracted, and slow on the draw. --[[User:DavidB4|<font color="ForestGreen">DavidB4</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]])</sup> 17:53, 20 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Yep, no problem! I just went one by one, clicked on the "View history" for all the vandalized pages, found the revisions just prior to being vandalized by the troll, and simply published those. --[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|Just say no to quid pro joe!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Free Roger Stone!]]'''''</sup> 18:10, 20 May 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==That Catholic vs Protestant argument on the talk pages is OVER==<br /> All discussions have been properly moved to the [[https://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:Does_the_Catholic_Church_have_the_biblical_authority_of_Christ_Himself_to_preach_and_to_teach_the_truth_forever%3F debate page]]. The discussion has calmed down and become more orderly. You're the one who keeps picking at scabs. I stopped talking about getting night editing rights when Andy finally responded, you're the one who keeps bringing it up, let it go already. Stop playing the victim, the Catholics have done just as much pushing and have been just as argumentative, and so have you, stop playing innocent. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 16:47, 23 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Dataclarifier does a kamikaze dive==<br /> Jesus said, ''Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.'' DC thinks it's Peter. So, no. Knowledge and understanding are still two different things. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 01:24, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Are you still going to try rebuking Dataclarifier? Your harshness towards him at times probably didn't do much good, and I can't help but wonder if you ever used the same sleazy strawman tactics against him as you did towards me. Now there's a possibility he may never come back, and I may as well just be sad, lonely, and depressed for the rest of my life.<br /> :And here's something I don't believe I've ever fully mentioned before: I stumbled upon this site around over a year ago, thought it was really cool, and wanted to participate. Then fast forward to when 1990'sguy pretty much left early this year, and I thought that I ought to try editing much more where I could. As I did more and more, I realized that this was the best thing giving me a sense of meaning in a life I was getting more and more miserable in. After trying to understand the disputes between you and Dataclarifier, I felt that he might've been treated unfairly and harshly, especially noticing your harshness at times. After NishantXavier was engaging in discussions, especially after he posted a link on his user page to a [[OnePeterFive]] webpage, I saw the increasing contempt some editors here had for him over strongly Catholic viewpoints. And after going through a pathetic while in the past few weeks, I hope everyone else is satisfied; I'm certainly not. I'll still stay on this site to contribute good content, but I'll be more inclined to just be a sad and bitter guy from now on. I've dealt with more nonsense than I could handle at all over the past few years, and I'm now probably hitting a long-term low point in life. If you profess to be a Christian, then I hope you can try to understand some of my problems; not many in my life were sympathetic, unfortunately. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 01:44, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Oh, and just in case, please don't issue a block over this. I'm now always becoming apprehensive on whether I'll get blocked or not over certain comments some assistant sysops may not like. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 01:50, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::My harshness? Everytime I cited the Bible, he told me I'm going to hell. Get your facts straight. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:04, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::I think you have trouble with the English language. You have made the claim, no less than 4 or 5 times, that people "selectively" use the Bible to condemn pedophilia. If there is support for pedophilia within the Bible, I think you need to ante up those scriptures, or just plain shut up and stop making stupid, spurious accusations. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:10, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Alright, I should've specified when you were harsh (asides from disputes with Dataclarifier). I remember one time you threatened to delete one of Progressingamerica's pages (finding the exact diff will be hard, since it was a few months ago), calling it "bull" and something along the lines of commie propaganda. And there was [[Talk:DIAN|this time]] as well when you initially marked one of my pages for a speedy deletion before I explained my points clearly. Can you please quit being extremely uncivil and using strawman attacks? As I've said, I might be hitting a long-term low point in life, and the last thing I need to read on my mail page is a repetition of the same smear you used. Since you profess to be a Christian, I'm puzzled (or perhaps maybe not) at your choosing of engaging in attacks over showing the type of compassion that God would want to see more of in this world. It's frankly sad to see so many editors here throw me under the bus for defending myself against lies; I don't know if I should even be surprised or not, as so many have betrayed me in my life. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 11:50, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Well, duh. Are your criticizing negotiation and consultation now? Do prefer unilateral action without consultation? Posting comments and consulting with others is kinda how the process works, sheesh.<br /> <br /> ::::As you reach this low point, remember, the ''Lord is nigh unto them who are of a broken heart'' (Ps 34:18). ''A broken heart thou wilt not despise'' (Psalm 51:17, easy to remember 17x3=51). God has guaranteed he will not reject us when everyone else has. It is our pride - original sin - that inhibits repentance. This is the problem with Roman Catholic doctrine, it teaches your pride was washed away with infant baptism. I know, I've been there. Me and all my brothers, as well. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:54, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::God didn't reject me before? Prior to this month, here's basically what happened in my life: I had tedious nonsense to deal with, and was really losing my long-term patience. Every time I just wanted to take a real break, it felt like I was getting cursed with short-term bad luck (like accidentally knocking down my pencil sharpener and creating a mess on the floor); it seemed to me as if I was supposed to just "gag and get it done" when I could barely think straight. The reason I would lose my long-term patience was because, growing up, I had always maintained some sense of objective-based integrity, and that was really tested in middle school as well as early high school. If you didn't grow up in an era filled with profanity and pornography glamorized as part of "maturity", then consider yourself much, much more luckier than I was. After losing good friends from elementary school because of how out-of-touch and nasty they got and seeing what had happened to peers as they became more cold-hearted and deceptive really had broke me on the inside. Realizing the self-recognizable nature of objective morality and that it comes to people's minds as they move from barbaric animal instincts to rational, civilized thinking was what eventually brought me from atheism to Christianity, but there's still a long way. And while some things in my life may strongly point towards it, I don't know how much God has done to reach out towards me. Too many times I've felt all alone, too many times being only able to rely on what I can salvage of the last bit of courage left in myself. I'm sorry if I sound selfish saying all this, given so many in the world who live far worse than I do. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 12:19, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::You need to stand on the rock of Christ. God says, ''Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock.'' That was DC's problem, he insisted the rock was a man - Peter, not Jesus Christ. God is not the author of confusion. He has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, love, and a sound mind. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:58, 6 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==You are invited to continue our sharing the Gospel of Salvation==<br /> Dataclarifier evidently found our discussion ''a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense'' (1 Peter 2:8) and removed it. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&curid=160561&diff=0&oldid=1675214] We can continue it here if you like. [[User_talk:RobSmith#The_Gospel_of_Salvation]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 15:16, 8 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Reply==<br /> Hi, in response to earlier, I can only say that I don't know exactly how it works. For the most part, it just does. There may be some specific way in which it goes, but it has not been clearly disclosed in any detail. So all I can say is that it generally works itself out eventually. Once in awhile though, the process seems to just stop for some. I can't say why for sure, although typically I have my suspicions for each case. I don't think timing has much to do with it, but perhaps a little in some cases. --[[User:DavidB4|<font color="ForestGreen">DavidB4</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]])</sup> 16:25, 26 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Thank you for replying, DavidB4! It just seems to me that some are vastly luckier than others, which ends up being a disappointment for those who work hard but aren't noticed as much. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 16:55, 26 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Dataclarifier update: new Debate page==<br /> <br /> Evening "LT" (sounds like military casual nickname for "lieutenant"!). Thanks for your prayers. I just set up another Debate page for others to participate in. For myself and IndependentSkeptic, we just don't have the energy any more. Just take a look at it, but don't get involved unless you really feel you should. We feel we shouldn't be obligating our friends in any way–it's just not fair. The title of the debate already implies the only possible answer. <br /> :*[[Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise?]]<br /> Peace be with you. We are well, just feeling old. I still lift light dumbbells for exercise. My mother is 93 and amazingly alert. She says, "Just don't say that "O" word. ("Old"). Stay safe buddy. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:33, 26 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Thank you Dataclarifier! Since I don't want to lose contact with you, do you you suppose you can email NishantXavier for now, and once I get a good chance to email him, I can get in direct contact with you? This way, you don't need to publicly post your email anywhere or register it here if you don't want to, as he has posted his email information [[User_talk:NishantXavier/Archive_1#Follow_me_on_Twitter|here]] and [https://onepeterfive.com/author/nxavier/ here]. God Bless, it's great to hear you guys are doing well, and thank you for posting here! Also, I'm really honored to hear that my nickname almost sounds like a military ranking position! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 22:51, 26 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::''10-4'' LT. We'll just post here. <br>By the way, already got a hot response on the Debate page and its Talk page. Do you know why some metal wires get hotter than others? ''Resistance''. John 3:19-21. The truth can really burn. Peace be with you. Amen. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:00, 26 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::Great to hear about that debate page! And can you please consider my proposal on emailing NishantXavier for now? If there's a way to contact you privately, then we can keep in touch if you decide to permanently leave CP anytime soon. I really ask you consider it, as I'd hate to ever be left alone not knowing how you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are doing. There's just something about you and your contributions here that leaves a special mark inside me that I can't forget and always think about, and it would be very sad if I one day lose all means of talking to you. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 23:17, 26 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's the Holy Spirit Himself using me in my contributions, the effect of the Holy Sacrament of Confirmation by the laying on of the hands of the Bishop representing the whole Body of Christ Himself that makes the mark inside you. Not I but Christ in me. <br> Loneliness Prescription Rx: Pray the recommended prayers of the Church to God the Holy Spirit, especially "O God, Who by the light of Thy Holy Spirit didst instruct the hearts of Thy faithful people, grant that we may be truly wise and ever rejoice in His consolations and power, through Christ Our Lord. ''Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created, and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.''" Or this one: "Lord, please console me." Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church daily, Knowing Jesus is by your side as you read in the very room with you lovingly watching you read it, until you've read it cover to cover seven times. Attend daily Mass, in person, or online EWTN live 0700, 1100, 1800, or 2300 hrs CST/CDT. Open the Bible and read one whole book of the scriptures simply because it is holy, or if it's long, one-third or one half of one. But before you do any reading, get quiet, close your eyes and ask Jesus to be present to you, and let him touch your soul. "O Jesus, as I cannot now receive Thee in holy Communion, I beg You to come spiritually into my heart, and make it your own forever. Never, never let me ever be parted from you, my Lord and my God. I love you, my Jesus." Finally, if the nearest Catholic Church to you offers Adoration, go and kneel in silent adoration (wearing a protective mask). I suggest beginning with the prayer of St. Thomas Aquinas, whispered quietly or mouthed in silence (mentally only){{quotation|O Godhead here in hiding / Whom I do adore / masked by these bare shadows / shape and nothing more / See, O see before You / here lies low a heart / lost, all lost in wonder / at the God thou art / Seeing, touching, tasting / are in Thee deceived / What says trusty hearing / That shall be believed / What God's Son says truly / take for truth I do / Truth Himself speaks truly / or there's nothing true ! }}Also at least one Hail Mary, said thoughtfully, from the heart, not recited, but addressed directly to her about every 3 hours, and once before bed and once upon rising. <br> Peace be with you and all whom you love and care about. ''Semper fidelis ! '' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:02, 27 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::Thank you very much for the advice if I go to a Catholic church anytime soon, but can you please answer regarding about possibly using email as a means for contact in the long run? I haven't got a complete answer on that, and it's really important to at least know how you're doing from time to time. God Bless, and thank you for wishing me well, as always! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 00:08, 27 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::We won't be using email. We've had lots of trouble from junk mail and simply delete it, some days up to 500 emails you wouldn't believe. So I guess you'll have to be content for now that you can post something either at my talk page or on Dataclarifier's, since we're in the same house, and we will get back to you here on your own talk page. God bless. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 09:24, 27 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::Ah, I see what you mean about junk mail and excessive spam that piles up. If you'd prefer I talk to you and D.C. for now on your talk pages, then I suppose that's the best (and only) idea for now. God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 10:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Dataclarifier just now blanked his talk page as promised at the end of the week. He'll check it once a month for any messages that might be left there.<br> After posting this message to you here, I will do the same on my talk page if it's not already blank, and I'll check it end of every month.<br> Regarding your offer above, we would both prefer you post your communications to us on my talk page. <br>May your own sweet and powerful guardian angel and the Holy Spirit of Almighty God and His Son give you healing and peace and consolation through the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus Our Lord and God. Amen. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 19:08, 29 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::Thank you IndependentSkeptic, and God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Saturday, 19:11, 29 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Re M.A. Mendoza ==<br /> <br /> Hi there. <br /> <br /> I, like many other God fearing conservatives were disappointed and surprised with Mendoza, yet, I wanted to show the bias on Wikipedia. Nishidani who wrote the same silly stuff, is a 14 years veteran on Wikipedia. It seems. <br /> I'm going to remove the content from Ann Mary Mendoza, if you feel it isn't neccessary. If you reconsider, please let me know.<br /> God bless.[[User:LaMarina|LaMarina]] ([[User talk:LaMarina|talk]]) 18:00, 28 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Hi LaMarina, I made a reply to this message on your talk page. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Friday, 18:06, 28 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Your proposed posting to an alternative Catholic-oriented site ==<br /> ::'''Liberaltears''', the site recommended by you as one that "'''''seems''''' [to you] a more Catholic-oriented alternative to Conservapedia" opposes Catholic doctrine regarding the Pope, the Magisterium, and the authority of the ''Ecumenical Councils'' of [[Council of Trent|Trent]] through [[Second Vatican Council|Vatican II]]. As for feeling that "debating other editors here" gets "nowhere", you totally miss the fact that a firm defense of the truth of the doctrine of the Church on Conservapedia is not for the purpose "winning" a debate or getting people ignorant of the actual doctrine to admit they were in error (perhaps misinformed by others who did not really know what they were talking about, or perhaps reaching erroneous conclusions on their own based on a badly uninformed reading of the Bible without knowledge of what the original language texts really say by not knowing that some words are not metaphors but only literal in meaning—like ''trogon'' in John 6 "eat, chew, gnaw, crunch my flesh"). Conservapedia "welcomes all points of view" ''officially'', but too often some of the Sysops/administrators are hostile even to the point of violating Conservapedia standards in order to ridicule, insult, and drive the Catholic contributors away by a vigorous vendetta against Catholicism, by using insults and outrageous misrepresentations based on [[Confirmation bias]], making Conservapedia more and more Protestant than it was ten years ago (''according to Dataclarifier''—he says it was more friendly then). Occasionally postings and contributions have been utterly deleted as being intolerable spamming with "irrelevant Catholic garbage". But most of the time not, just being treated with bullying contempt and hostility instead. "Catholics not wanted" is the hidden message. And it's pervasive. Much of what Dataclarifier has contributed has survived almost intact. My own brief contribution to some of the articles on the popes, and what I did adapting the Harmony of the Gospel conservative version to audio read aloud, has apparently been left untouched. So, if what I've edited or contributed to Conservapedia does in fact convince anyone that the actual Catholic doctrine of the ''Catechism'' is from the guidance of the Holy Spirit working through them leading into all the truth, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Dataclarifier says he was too zealous for the Church when he first entered, and that Father Nelo Leto asked him, "Were you talking with anyone when you decided to become Catholic?" and he said, "No." And Father Leto said, "Then why don't you let the Spirit do his work? I don't really think He needs your help."<br>So, whether or not it "gets nowhere" is moot, because after I finish up with the Debate on whether the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded or not, both Dataclarifier and me will retire from Conservapedia for the most part. He didn't want to "butt heads" with anti-Catholics on that Debate page but just wanted to see what would happen. When I looked at it I couldn't stand the fact that no one was defending the Church and the "No, it hasn't happened" section was empty. As I said, he didn't want to participate, but I sure did! And so it's reached a point where there's no point to it. '''Conservative''' wanted Debate pages to be organized with straightforward "Yes" and "No" sections, each one presenting a particular side of the the Debate and leaving it at that. But it got bogged down and obscured by constant interruptions of inserted opposing comments and insults and scriptures cited again and again and contradictions with scriptures cited in opposition to other scriptures again and again and each side denounced by the other as posting "irrelevant spam intended to obscure the purpose of the debate and deflect it into other issues not relevant to the stated topic of the debate in violation of the rules of the debate" (''whew, that's a mouthful''). <br> OK that brings us to today. I will go ahead this afternoon with what I recommended ("24 hours after making the Recommendation) and revise the layout of the Debate page, <br /> ::*getting rid of unnecessary repetitious "spam" and disruptive insertions into contributing users' arguments that chopped them up by cutting and interrupting their text at multiple places above the contributing user's signature line and essentially obscuring the point being made, <br /> ::*and moving comments "yay" to the now named "Protagonist" section, and comments "nay" to the now-named "Antagonist" section of the Debate. That should streamline the whole page.<br /> ::If it's promptly reverted afterward I won't be at all surprised, even if the revised layout '''''is''''' according to the form Conservative insisted should be maintained for a debate page. If it is, I won't stick around to contest it. A reversion would only prove that revision of the page into the form of a fair debate clearly stated without obscuring the topic is unacceptable to someone. <br> '''''Nuff said!''''' (too much!) --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 15:11, 31 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Oh, alright then. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Monday, 16:09, 31 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ===Update: hospitalization===<br /> This morning Dataclarifier's mother was admitted to Mercy Hospital because of severe nausea and weakness and lightheadedness near to fainting and almost passing out beginning 3 AM. When asked if she needed to go to the ER, she finally decided to have the EMT's called. She was admitted 6:30 AM for 2-days' observation. No visitors. Phone calls allowed once a day. We'll keep in touch with her nurse by phone, and her as well. When she's released, we'll bring her home. Would appreciate your prayers. Meanwhile, stay safe. Look at my last entry my Talk page ["Frequent purging of junk this page"]. God bless. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:54, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br>Just got a call from the doctor on staff. Her CAT scan showed nothing obviously wrong. All her lab work showed nothing seriously wrong. Thank God! They're going to keep her under observation to see if any cause was overlooked. She wasn't in any pain during all this. Just frightened by what happened. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:12, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Sorry to hear about what had happened to D.C.'s mother. I'll definitely send my prayers today; given the seriousness of what initially was going on, I genuinely apologize for not seeing this message sooner. Thank you for telling me, and may the Lord protect her! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 14:49, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ====Update: home from hospital====<br /> D.C.'s mother discharged about 1:50 PM. Diagnosis inner-ear disorder. The small stones inside the cochlea that change position with movement to stimulate the "hairs" inside the inner ear for orientation of balance were not functioning properly, causing dizziness and nausea. She's had a history of motion-sickness in darkened movie-theaters and during airflight. This is worse in its effect. But it's not life-threatening, unless she falls. Prescription for alleviation of the symptom. We brought her home. Meanwhile will check my talk page once a day after dealing with our emails at home computer. God Bless. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 16:38, 3 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Well, it's good to hear that she's been discharged from the hospital, and I'm sorry if she isn't all well yet. I'll continue sending my prayers, and I wish her the best! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 16:45, 3 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::The three of us thank you together. God bless. May God be with you. ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 23:19, 3 September 2020 (EDT) Mrs. Mullin, and Dataclarifier.<br /> :::You're welcome! And how's D.C.'s mother doing at the very moment? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Friday, 23:32, 3 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::Asleep. <br /> ::::Dataclarifier recommends you add the following link (with audio) to your "Favorites" file so you can pray with the whole Church in worship of God at night, before dawn, morning, at midday, and in the evening before or after sunset. '''https://divineoffice.org/''' —God Bless. Good night. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 01:13, 4 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::Okay, thank you for replying, IndependentSkeptic! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Friday, 01:17, 4 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Political Cartoons==<br /> Not gonna lie, you're pretty much a role model to me. May we collaborate to expand the [[political cartoon]] page? There is a lot of great potential there, such as Garrison, Ramirez and the McCoys. I also think it'd fit your name pretty perfectly.--[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 23:10, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I'm honored to hear that! About expanding the political cartoon page, that sounds like a great idea; do you want to start off with it, then maybe I can add on to the article in your preferred style? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 23:15, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::I've collected what I believe to be the best of the best over quite some time. I would like for you to give whatever your discretion sees fit, be it commentary and especially formatting, as I yield to your seniority. Are more private communications allowed here, or shall I simply post the compilation right here?--[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 23:22, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::The whole thing, admittedly going back a while. Or not, sorry.<br /> https://imgur.com/a/CGdgKXM<br /> --[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 23:26, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::Is that link correct? I clicked on it, but only saw a blank screen. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 23:47, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::There's a thunderstorm going on where I am. My ability to edit this is a small miracle. That link should've led to 5/43 comics I intended to upload.--[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 23:50, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::Is the content in the link only accessible from a private account or can it be seen by anyone publicly? Also, about uploading (correct me if I'm wrong), are you referring to uploading them as files to CP here? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 23:55, 1 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::It's public, and keeps failing after five or so, regardless of my order. I don't know how to upload pictures to CP directly- that would certainly help.<br /> This should finally work. https://imgur.com/a/dyaECV0[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 00:05, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Hmm, I'm still getting a blank screen when opening the link. By the way, about uploading images to CP, that requires either the "Upload" or "Administrator" tag; the good news is that I was very fortunate to be promoted to "Upload" abilities by Andy today, so if you ever want any work of yours to be uploaded here, I'll likely be able to do it. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 00:19, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::That's pretty great for you! That link actually does work- I tried Ctrl+F5 (force-reloading) a few times, and yeah, it's there. I have no artistic works of my own to upload, but I shall remember the offer. If I have to submit pictures to upload to the site individually, how do I?--[[User:LawfulLibertarian|LawfulLibertarian]] ([[User talk:LawfulLibertarian|talk]]) 00:29, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::Thank you! About the link, I did try force-reloading with Ctrl+F5 a couple times, but it didn't work, and I'll try again sometime else. And about submitting images to upload, I believe you're looking for [[Conservapedia:Image upload requests]] ([[CP:IUR]]). Also, I need to head to sleep right now, and I'll likely be back in around six to seven hours. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Wednesday, 00:45, 2 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> hey liberaltears! I saw you updating the leftist violence in the Trump era page! I love it! I'm currently working on a project to catalog all of the instances of black lives matter protests turning violent throughout the summer. I want to combat that fake report that 93% of protests are peaceful<br /> <br /> anyway I was wondering if you would already have any of this cataloged or if you'd be interested in helping? I'm also working on a political violence map but right now I want to catalog every instance of black lives matter violence to see what the true percentage is..<br /> <br /> lemme know! {{unsigned|Mikephshdj}}<br /> <br /> :Since I'm listing [[BLM]] violence in [[Left-wing violence in the Trump era (2020)|this page]], it's technically cataloged with other specific topics. It's important to note that when getting the information, I mainly use the [[Gateway Pundit]] since they report on incidents very quickly, though I do also use [[Breitbart]] and [[Townhall]]; this means that I'm likely to catch up on most news but maybe not all. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier's mother be all well!]]'''''</sup> Sunday, 21:53, 5 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==I saw your edit my talk page==<br /> We are all right. I donated some of my dumbbell free weights to the Boys and Girls Club of America here in Des Moines 30# to 60#, and kept the 3# through 25# weights and my incline-decline exercise bench with leg curl and extension attachment with plates. The representative was delighted! <br /> <br /> I read your edit and ignored RobSmith's posting, and then deleted the page content, as I said I would. Peace be with you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 14:12, 10 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :THANK YOU VERY MUCH for replying on my user mail page here, Dataclarifier! It's great to hear that you guys are alright, and I was worried for a little while that you and I.S. may have permanently left already. God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier's mother be all well!]]'''''</sup> Thursday, 14:27, 10 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Addendum: I posted the following on the Debate Talk page Have the gates of hell...<br /> <br /> A story is told about St. Francis of Assisi. There was, during St. Francis’ time, a priest who was<br /> a scandal to his parish. He was living with a woman in sin and nothing could convince the wayward priest to change his ways. He tried to change, but the sinful habit of sex outside of marriage<br /> had a strangle hold on the priest.<br /> The parish decided to take action so one night they went to the priest’s house carrying torches<br /> and clubs ...they would convince the priest to change his ways one way or another. After<br /> pounding on the door, the wayward priest appeared and St. Francis stepped forward to confront<br /> him. Both the priest and the mob thought that Francis would verbally chastise him but, to the<br /> surprise of all, the holy St. Francis fell to his knees before the fallen priest. Francis took the<br /> priest’s hands and kissed them...“Sinner or no.” Francis said, “I kiss the hands of this man whom<br /> God has gifted with the power to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ...The<br /> hands of the one who has the power to forgive sins in God’s name.” The wayward priest fell to<br /> his knees too and began to sob uncontrollably. The scandalous priest there,<br /> kneeling with the saint, repented of his sins and turned his life back over to Christ. The priest<br /> who had believed he was defeated by his sexually scandalous life, found victory that night. The<br /> parish that had given up on the wayward pastor and wanted vengeance found victory too as they<br /> witnessed Christ’s mercy melt the heart of a hardened sinner. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 14:12, 10 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> In case you're wondering about the woman, I added on the Debate Talk page what Paul Harvey calls "the rest of the story":<br /> :When the woman herself saw that "''the parish that had given up on the wayward pastor and wanted vengeance found victory too as they witnessed Christ’s mercy melt the heart of a hardened sinner''", her heart too was stricken and melted along with the parishioners, and she fell down and repented, and confessed that she had seduced the priest, and she received absolution, and from that moment in sorrow for her sins turned her life over to Christ and lived apart, dedicating herself to a life of poverty and prayer for sinners in penance and fasting and chastity in reparation to Christ for her sins. The Poor Clares ministered to her needs along with some of the parishioners of the town. <br /> I'll get back in a month or so. ''Pax vobis''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 10 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Interesting story. Thank you for sharing, and God Bless! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier's mother be all well!]]'''''</sup> Friday, 21:10, 10 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Section for I.S. to post updates ==<br /> <br /> IndependentSkeptic, if you see this, the following space below the line is for you to post updates on how you, D.C., and his mother are doing. Thank you very much! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]'''''</sup> Saturday, 12:55, 12 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ----<br /> You said on my talk page "see here". I C U C We C. "''All hands! Now see this!'' That is all." <br> I'll now go back and delete my Talk page content. House is asleep. God Bless.--[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 13:04, 12 September 2020 (EDT)<br>Oh, by the way, look at the Debate Talk page at the bottom [Debate: Have the gates of hell...] warning about RobSmith's lies. <br> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 13:05, 12 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Whoops, sorry for the late reply. Also, I saw your warning on the debate talk page, and I'm aware of what you mean. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]'''''</sup> Saturday, 18:07, 12 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==imgs==<br /> [https://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Log/upload There. I think I got all the ones that needed cropping.] [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Live Free or Die]]</sup> 02:07, 7 June 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Edit warring==<br /> There proper place to discuss the [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Cafeteria_Christianity&diff=1669727&oldid=1669720 serious problems with this paragraph] is on talk. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:18, 20 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Give me one scripture that selectively supports pedophilia, as you allege? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:21, 20 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===You owe me an apology===<br /> *''Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose '''sin is covered.'''''<br /> I covered the sin of pedophile priests, and you lied about me. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:04, 21 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===There you go lying again===<br /> I didn't attack Nishant; I attacked the CBP and praised Dataclarifier for steering clear of it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 15:07, 23 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> You should read up a bit on [[Flame war]]s before starting another one. Here's [https://www.bsd.org/bdgtti/bdgtti_8.html a good primer] better than Wikipedia's page on it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 15:16, 23 July 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Templates==<br /> There has to be two separate Templates:<br /> *[[Template:QuoteBox‎]]<br /> *[[Template:QuoteBox-float]]<br /> The Redirect screwed up formatting on hundreds, if not thousands of pages. I think I fixed it all by creating the floating Temp and revert to the original quotebox.<br /> <br /> I left the two unlocked for editing by autoconfirmed users for tweaking. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 15:31, 5 September 2020 (EDT)‎<br /> <br /> == Re: Checkmate atheist ==<br /> <br /> You wrote: "So you concede? Checkmate atheist! LTMay Dataclarifier be well! 20:05, 10 September 2020 (UTC)"<br /> [[File:Matador1.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|Olé! Olé! Olé!]]<br /> I smiled when I saw this post of yours to RW admin Ace McWicked. I give it 3 Olés! Olé! Olé! Olé! <br /> <br /> When it comes to Christianity vs. atheism debate, Ace McWicked couldn't debate his way out of a wet paper bag. And the this is due to the fact that atheism has no proof, evidence or logic behind it (see: [[Atheist apologetics]] and [[Atheism and logic]] and [[Rebuttals to atheist arguments]]).<br /> <br /> Atheists have a very poor track record when it comes to being effective at debating - especially against Christians. See: [[Atheism debates]] and [[Atheism vs. Christianity debates]].<br /> <br /> Today, I created this article: [[Atheist Samuel Porter Putnam vs. Baptist J.N. Hall debate]].<br /> <br /> By the way, I added some material to the [[Irreligion/religion and war]] article which will put another bee under RW editor ShabiDOO's bonnet. Like most atheists, RW editor ShabiDOO's knowledge of history is pretty poor (see also: [[Atheists and historical illiteracy]] and [[Atheism and historical revisionism]]). Perhaps, ShabiDOO was educated in one of America's failing public schools.[https://www.thebalance.com/the-u-s-is-losing-its-competitive-advantage-3306225][[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 06:40, 13 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :I was getting somewhat bored that day, and posted the comment there just for humor. Also, you're right about atheism having no proof for it.<br />—[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May D.C., his mother, and I.S. be all well!]]'''''</sup> Sunday, 11:29, 13 September 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::It's easy to get bored during a pandemic. Many people have "cabin fever". I went through a stage of this, but I decided to set some goals and fill my life with activities to achieve those goals. And to get over the cabin fever, I will take walks in scenic areas. <br /> <br /> ::I am trying to find a church that is meeting outdoors, but I live in a fairly non-innovative area so that might be hard! The "We have never done it that way" attitude is widespread in my area.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 17:39, 13 September 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Irreligion/religion_and_war&diff=1686026 Irreligion/religion and war 2020-09-13T09:35:33Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:NorthKorea location.png|thumbnail|right|200px|Countries with high levels of [[atheism]], such as [[North Korea]], have not necessarily been the most peaceful countries.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>]]<br /> Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK, wrote in her article entitled ''Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer For?'':<br /> {{Cquote|But academic studies consistently challenge the link between [[religion]] and [[war]]. [http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/news/1085 Research published in October from the New York and Sydney-based Institute for Economics and Peace] looked at all of the wars that took place in 2013. It found no 'general causal relationship' between religion and conflict.<br /> <br /> In fact, religious elements played no role at all in 14 (40%) of the 35 armed conflicts in the research, and only five (14%) had religious elements as their main cause, the report showed. All of the wars had multiple causes, and the much more common motivation was opposition to a government, or to the economic, ideological, political or social systems of a state, which was named as a main factor in nearly two thirds of the cases studied.<br /> <br /> The ''Encyclopedia of Wars'', an extensive study published in 2008, chronicles 1,763 wars throughout human history. It names just 123 as 'religious in nature' – a little under 7%.<br /> <br /> The [http://economicsandpeace.org/ Institute for Economics and Peace] report also found that having less religion in a country doesn’t make it more peaceful. The proportion of atheists in a country had no bearing on levels of peace.<br /> <br /> Countries with the highest levels of [[atheism]] – mainly [[communism|communist]] or former communist states like [[Russia]] and the [[Czech Republic]] – were not necessarily the most peaceful. [[North Korea]], which has one of the lowest rates of people practising religion, was one of ten 'least peaceful' countries in world last year, according to the report.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Britain's thinktank Theos notes: "For the first, two academics (Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod) surveyed 1,800 conflicts and found that less than 10% involved religion at all."<ref>[https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2018/08/31/religion-a-cause-of-war-or-a-means-of-peace Religion: A Cause of War or a Means of Peace?]</ref><br /> <br /> In his book ''The Irrational Atheist'', [[Vox Day]] wrote:<br /> {{Cquote|It’s also interesting to note that more than half of these religious wars, sixty-six in all, were waged by [[Islam]]ic nations, which is rather more than might be statistically expected considering that the first war in which Islam was involved took place almost three millennia after the first war chronicled in the Encyclopedia, Akkad’s conquest of Sumer in 2325 B . C .<br /> <br /> In light of this evidence, the fact that a specific religion is currently sparking a great deal of<br /> conflict around the globe cannot reasonably be used to indict all religious faith, especially when one<br /> considers that removing that single religion from the equation means that all of the other religious<br /> faiths combined only account for 3.35 percent of humanity’s wars.<ref>[http://www.voxday.net/mart/TIA_free.pdf The Irrational Atheist - Abbreviated free copy on PDF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The abstract for the academic paper ''Empirical Perspectives on Religion and Violence'' by Joshua David Wright and Yuelee Khoo indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|The ‘religion as cause’ argument implies that religious faiths are more inherently prone to violence than ideologies that are secular. Following an evaluation of the scientific literature on religion and violence, we argue that wherever evidence links specific aspects of religion with aggression and violence, these aspects are not unique to religion. Rather, these aspects are religious variants of more general psychological processes. Further, there are numerous aspects of religion that buffer against aggression and violence among its adherents. The most distinct feature of religion, supernaturalism, is not often the focus of researchers of religion and violence. Despite this, the paucity of research that has been conducted on this key feature suggests that supernaturalism is associated with reduced aggression and violence. There appears to be very little support for the notion that there is something uniquely religious that causes violence among followers.<ref>[https://psyarxiv.co''m/gzspe/ ''Empirical Perspectives on Religion and Violence'' by Joshua David Wright and Yuelee Khoo], ''Contemporary Voices: St. Andrews Journal of International Relations'', December 10, 2018</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == In Foreign Policy atheist Scott Atran indicates religion is not a major causal factor for wars ==<br /> [[File:Vox Day.jpg|thumbnail|right|175px|[[Vox Day]] ]] <br /> Vox Day wrote in his article entitled ''Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument'':<br /> <br /> :"Scott Atran is the first atheist to publicly come out and [http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/god_and_the_ivory_tower?page=0,2 admit the historical nonexistence] of the oft-claimed connection between religion and war in ''Foreign Policy'':<br /> <br /> ::Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.<br /> <br /> :Not only does Atran accept the argument I originally presented in a WND article before refining it in The Irrational Atheist, but his article is actually much less of a Fighting Withdrawal than the misleading subtitle - What we don't understand about religion just might kill us - would lead the casual reader to believe."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/08/atheists-abandon-religion-causes-war.html Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument]</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism and mass murder ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and mass murder]] and [[militant atheism]]<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|left|200px|thumb|The brutal [[atheism|atheist]] [[Joseph Stalin]] was greatly influenced by the work of [[Charles Darwin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref>]]<br /> It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic [[communism]] have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives.<ref><br /> *[http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/finalconflict/fcrevb102.html The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM]<br /> *[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm]<br /> *[http://www.sarasotamagazine.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=365 Memory and Ideology]*[http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2526 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression]</ref> Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.<ref>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM</ref><br /> <br /> [[Vox Day]] notes concerning atheism and mass murder:<br /> {{cquote|Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao … <br /> <br /> The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.<br /> <br /> The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.<br /> <br /> Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!<ref>http://creation.com/atheism</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and the issue of world peace ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and world peace]]<br /> <br /> == World War I, World War II and Darwinism ==<br /> <br /> Historically, the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution|theory of evolution]] which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists or [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref name="Batten and Sarfati">Multiple references:<br /> * Batten, Dr. Don (December 1997). [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists "A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists"]. Creation Ministries International. Originally published in ''Creation'' 20(1):32. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> * Sarfati, Jonathan, Ph.D., F.M. (1999). [http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-chapter-1-evolution-creation-science-religion-facts-bias "Chapter 1: Facts and bias", ''Refuting Evolution'']. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The founder of [[Darwinism]], [[Charles Darwin]], was an [[agnosticism|agnostic]]/[[weak atheism|weak atheist]] (see: [[Religious views of Charles Darwin]]).<br /> <br /> === Charles Darwin's ideas on the white race exterminating other races which he claimed were inferior ===<br /> [[File:CharlesDarwin.jpg|right|thumb|175px|[[Charles Darwin|Charles Darwin]] ]] <br /> ''See also:'' [[Evolutionary racism]] and [[Social Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Charles Darwin wrote in his work ''[[The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex]]'':<br /> {{cquote|At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.<ref>http://www.aim.org/wls/90/</ref><ref name="DoM6">[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/dscmn10.txt The Descent of Man], chapter VI</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === WWI and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Historian Jacques Barzun observed how [[Evolution|Darwinism]] caused the horrendous brutality of the wars leading up to [[World War I]]: "Since in every European country between 1870 and 1914 there was a war party demanding armaments, an individualist party demanding ruthless competition, an imperialist party demanding a free hand over backward peoples, a socialist party demanding the conquest of power and a racialist party demanding internal purges against aliens — all of them, when appeals to greed and glory failed, invoked [[Herbert Spencer|Spencer]] and [[Charles Darwin|Darwin]], which was to say science incarnate."<ref>[http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan/making-a-monkey-out-of-darwin.html Making a monkey out of Darwinism]</ref><br /> <br /> According to Annika Mombauer, senior lecturer in history at the Open University in London and the author of numerous books and articles on World War I:<br /> {{cquote|Many of the decision makers and, in fact, many ordinary [[Europe]]ans did feel that war would eventually come. You have to think of another "-ism" -- [[social Darwinism]], this belief that nations and peoples are subject to the same biological laws as animals and that they are going to either rise to the top or they are going to be eliminated in a vying for power."<ref>[http://www.rferl.org/content/wwi-key-questions-war-anniversary-historians/25472768.html World War I Anniversary: Five Historians, Two Questions, Radio Free Europe]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-world-war-one Darwinism and World War One] and [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi race Holocaust] and [[Social effects of the theory of evolution|Social effects of evolutionary ideology]]<br /> <br /> === WWII, Nazism and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ==== Charles Darwin, Nazi ideology development and eugenics ====<br /> <br /> In a [[Creation Ministries International]] article entitled ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'', [[Bill Muehlenberg]] writes:<br /> {{cquote|‘Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new “scientific” justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as “inferior”. … Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’<ref>[http://creation.com/darwin-and-eugenics ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'' by Bill Muehlenberg]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In addition, Dennis Sewell declared cornering the Darwin family:<br /> {{cquote|[In the] years leading up to the First World War, the eugenics movement looked like a Darwin family business. … Darwin’s son Leonard replaced his cousin Galton as chairman of the national Eugenics Society in 1911. In the same year an offshoot of the society was formed in Cambridge. Among its leading members were three more of Charles Darwin’s sons, Horace, Francis and George.” <ref>[http://creation.com/eugenics-a-darwin-family-business Eugenics: “a Darwin family business”]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Evolution and Nazism: Some key historical figures ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> [[Image:Hitlerspeech.jpg|thumb|300px|left|[[Adolf Hitler]]]]<br /> <br /> The March 9, 1907 edition of the [[NY Times]] refers to [[Ernst Haeckel]] as the "celebrated Darwinian and founder of the Association for the Propagation of Ethical Atheism."<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03EFDD123EE033A2575AC0A9659C946697D6CF</ref><br /> <br /> The staunch evolutionist and agnostic [[Stephen Gould]] admitted: <br /> {{cquote|Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in [[Germany]].... His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science - all contributed to the rise of Nazism. - Stephen J. Gould, "Ontogeny and Phylogeny," Belknap Press: Cambridge MA, 1977, pp.77-78).<ref>http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/social.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler]] wrote the following [[Evolutionary racism|evolutionary racist]] material in his work ''[[Mein Kampf]]'':<br /> {{cquote|If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.<ref>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] also wrote in ''Mein Kampf'':<br /> {{cquote|The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable.<ref>http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=268</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. Robert E.D. Clark also wrote:<br /> {{cquote|“Adolf Hitler’s mind was captivated by evolutionary teaching — probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas — quite undisguised — lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf — and in his public speeches.”<ref>http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_holocaust_why_did_it_happen</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Joseph_mengel.jpg|thumb|300px|[[Josef Mengele]] ]] <br /> Dr. [[Josef Mengele]]'s evolutionary thinking was in accordance with [[Social Darwinism|social Darwinist]] theories that [[Adolph Hitler]] and a number of [[German]] academics found appealing.<ref>[http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust]</ref><ref>[http://creation.com/herero-genocide Herero Genecide]</ref> Dr. Joseph Mengele studied under the leading proponents the "unworthy life" branch of evolutionary thought.<ref>[http://creation.com/refutation-of-new-scientists-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions-nazi-darwin-link The Darwin–Hitler connection]</ref> Dr. Mengele was one of the most notorious individuals associated with [[Nazi]] death camps and the [[Holocaust]].<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> Mengele obtained a infamous reputation due to his experiments on twins while at [[Auschwitz]]-Birkenau.<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> <br /> <br /> B. Wilder-Smith wrote the following regarding [[Nazism]] and the theory of evolution: <br /> {{cquote|One of the central planks in Nazi theory and doctrine was …evolutionary theory [and] … that all biology had evolved … upward, and that … less evolved types … should be actively eradicated [and] … that natural selection could and should be actively aided, and therefore [the Nazis] instituted political measures to eradicate … [[Jew]]s, and … blacks, whom they considered as “underdeveloped”.’<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i2/nazi.asp</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Pulitzer Prize]] winning author Marilynne Robinson wrote the following regarding Hitler's racism in the November 2006 issue of Harper’s Magazine: <br /> {{cquote|While it is true that persecution of the Jews has a very long history in Europe, it is also true that science in the twentieth century revived and absolutized persecution by giving it a fresh rationale — Jewishness was not religious or cultural, but genetic. Therefore no appeal could be made against the brute fact of a Jewish grandparent...<br /> <br /> There is indeed [[history|historical]] precedent in the [[Spanish Inquisition]] for the notion of hereditary Judaism. But the fact that the worst religious thought of the sixteenth century can be likened to the worst scientific thought of the twentieth century hardly redounds to the credit of science."<ref>http://solutions.synearth.net/2006/10/20</ref>}}<br /> <br /> As noted earlier, evolutionary ideas significantly influenced the thinking of the nineteenth and twentieth-century [[Communism|Communists]].<ref>http://creation.com/content/view/1804/</ref><ref>http://creation.com/charles-darwins-impactthe-bloodstained-legacy-of-evolution</ref> Karl Marx wrote in a letter the following, ""Darwin's book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the [[class struggle]] in history." Darwin's ideas also influenced the thinking of [[Friedrich Engels|Engels]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], and [[Joseph Stalin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref><br /> <br /> === WWII, Benito Mussolini, atheism, Darwinism and violence ===<br /> <br /> Italy was on the [[Axis powers]] in WWII and an ally of [[Nazi Germany]]. <br /> [[File:Mussolini.gif|thumbnail|left|200px|[[Benito Mussolini]] ]]<br /> [[Benito Mussolini]] (1883-1945) was the [[Fascist]] dictator of [[Italy]].<br /> A life-long [[socialist]] intellectual<ref>''[[Liberal Fascism]]'', [[Jonah Goldberg]], Page 31</ref> and self-proclaimed "socialist heretic", he was nominated prime minister by Vittorio Emanuele III di Savoia, King of Italy, in the time of [[World War II]]. He was head of one of the strong forms of government seen in Europe in this time. He created the political structure Fasci Italiani di Combatimento, which is what later would be known as [[Fascism]], a term which was later used to describe the merging of government and corporation. He was responsible for several war crimes in [[Ethiopia]] and [[Yugoslavia]].<br /> <br /> In his work entitled Mussolini Denis Mack Smith wrote:<br /> {{cquote|From his father he [Mussolini] had learnt to be a thoroughgoing anti-clerical. He proclaimed himself to be an [[Atheism|atheist]] and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead. He forcibly denounced those socialists who thought religion a matter for individual conscience or had their children baptised. [In Mussolini's opinion] Science had proved that God did not exist and the Jesus of history was an ignorant Jew whose family thought him mad, and who was a pigmy compared to the Buddha. Religion, he said, was a disease of the psyche, an epidemic to be cured by psychiatrists, and Christianity in particular was vitiated by preaching the senseless virtues of resignation and cowardice, whereas the new socialist morality should celebrate violence and rebellion."<ref>"Mussolini", by Denis Mack Smith, Vintage Books, 1983, page 8.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. David N. Menton wrote about the effect Darwinism had upon Mussolini:<br /> {{cquote|Benito Mussolini, who brought fascism to Italy, was also greatly influenced by Darwinism, which he thought supported his belief that violence is essential for beneficial social transformation. Mussolini repeatedly used Darwinian catchwords in his speeches and ridiculed efforts at peace because they interfered with natural evolutionary process.<ref>[http://www.gennet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:the-religion-of-nature-social-darwinism&catid=8:mac-speakers The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism] by David N. Menton, Ph.D.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Irreligion/religion and love/peace ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> <br /> From a [[Metaphysics|metaphysical]], moral and spiritual perspective, atheists have an inability to satisfactorily explain the existence of [[love]].<ref>[http://www.strangenotions.com/atheists-love/ How do atheists define love?] by Dr. Taylor Marshall</ref><ref>[https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/what-is-love-how-materialist-atheism-fails-to-have-a-satisfactory-answer/ What is love? how materialist atheism fails to have a satisfactory answer], July 9, 2014</ref> See also: [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> [[File:Fra Angelico Lamentacion por la muerte de Cristo.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> ]]<br /> [[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> For example, the [[New Testament]] teaches that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25). See also: [[Agape]]<br /> <br /> In his article ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love'', Monk Themistocles (Adamopoulo) wrote:<br /> {{cquote|It is generally agreed by scholars and saints that the teaching of "love" and charity represent one of the essential dimensions of the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. Accordingly, from the extant words and parables of Jesus many concern themselves with the message of love. For example on the Sunday of Meat Fare, from the Gospel of Matthew, we hear Jesus identifying Himself and in solidarity with the destitute, the suffering, the rejected and the oppressed, calling for and rewarding altruistic philanthropy:<br /> <br /> "... I was hungry and you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in, when naked you clothed me, when I was ill you came to my help, when in prison you visited me ... I tell you this anything you did for one of my brothers here, however humble, you did it for me." (Matt 25:35-36, 40)...<br /> <br /> Christians undertook a great deal of almsgiving to the poor not only to fellow believers but to pagans as well. So amazed was the anti-Christian pagan emperor Julian the Apostate (361-363 AD), with the sheer benevolence and excellence of Christian philanthropy that he was forced to admit in wonder their superiority over paganism in matters of charity:<br /> <br /> "These godless Galileans (ie. Christians) feed not only their own poor but ours: our poor lack our care" (Ep. Sozom. 5:16).<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians]]<br /> <br /> === Economic instability, war, economic development, charity and religion/irreligion ===<br /> <br /> [[File:Calcutta beggar.jpg|thumbnail|right|280px|Beggar in [[Calcutta]], India.<br /> <br /><br /><br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists. See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]] ]]<br /> Economic instability is a causal factor for war.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122240/ BMJ. Feb 9, 2002; 324(7333): 0. Inequality and poverty cause war]</ref> <br /> <br /> The Christian relief organization World Vision Australia notes that out of the 150 or more major conflicts since World War II, 130 of these were in poor countries.<ref>[http://www.worldvision.com.au/libraries/3_1_1_issues_-_war/war_and_poverty.pdf War and Poverty by World Vision Australia]</ref> And economic instability was one of the causal factors of WWII.<ref>[http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII_Great_Depression.htm The Great Depression and and WWII]</ref> <br /> <br /> In terms of economic development, biblical Christianity has historically had a positive affect on countries.<ref><br /> *[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012<br /> *[http://creation.com/christianity-as-progress ''Christianity as progress: A review of The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark<br /> Random House, New York, 2005''] by Lael Weinberger<br /> *[http://creation.com/the-biblical-origins-of-science-review-of-stark-for-the-glory-of-god The biblical origins of science: A review of For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark] by Alex Williams</ref> [[Harvard University]] historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history." (See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism|Protestant work ethic and capitalism]]).<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref><br /> <br /> See also:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and communism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Soviet atheism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Secular left]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and politics]]<br /> <br /> ==== Charity: Religiousness vs. irreligiousness ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]<br /> <br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists (See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]).<br /> <br /> Dr. [[William Lane Craig]] points out that the social science research indicates that atheists who have family/social contacts with religious people give more to charity than atheists who do not have such an influence.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imuaiRO5mSQ&feature=sub Christians Give more to Charity than Atheists] ([[YouTube]] video featuring an audio clip of Dr. [[William Lane Craig]])</ref><br /> <br /> === Atheist arrogance/anger/quarrelsomeness ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheist bullying]] and [[Atheist movement]] and [[Internet atheism]]<br /> <br /> The [[Saint Paul|Apostle Paul]] taught that arrogance and easily provoked anger are antithetical to love (1 Corinthians 13: 4-5). The atheist population has a significant problem with pride, anger and quarrelsomeness (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]] and [[Atheism and anger]] and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]).<br /> <br /> [[File:G. Christina.jpg|thumbnail|left|275px|Picture of [[Greta Christina]] in 2010.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <small>(photo from [https://www.flickr.com/photos/danielgipps/4988339630/in/photolist-2rDM3o-bt3Ftm-bFXxr4-5nz1zL-7fobnw-7fobys-7fjigk-7fjiwX-7fobh5-5T99Aj-5T4L6K-5T98K1-5T96wf-5T4NZF-7e8Beb-7c7bCe-7e8zi9-7caZdy-8ANxzG-7e8xjS-8AKsPT-68xpDc-68xpDt-6rdw8-bHrFL6-bHrFKZ-fznm8w-eUwdEY-bqezJr-e3JzYN-fQtemN-axf5DW-dQotEq-7agx5n-okT16-MvRwB-8ANxss-8ANxSw-8UMG16-9LdtG8-bnvf16-adV2DK-bG97z6-bG97fc-bG96TK-btehjh-82T2J-oAdNG-2VKxNd-2uHoFH Flickr], see: [https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ license agreement])</small>]]<br /> <br /> The atheist and [[lesbianism|lesbian]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement."<ref>Mooney, Chris (May 14, 2012). [http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ "Greta Christina—Why are you atheists so angry?"] [interview of Greta Christina] Point of Inquiry website. Retrieved on October 6, 2014.</ref><br /> <br /> [[Blair Scott]] served on the [[American Atheists]] board of directors. Mr. Scott formerly served as a State Director for the [[American Atheists]] organization in the state of [[Alabama]]. On December 1, 2012 he quit his post as a director of outreach for the American Atheist due to infighting within the American [[atheist movement]].<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref> <br /> <br /> Mr. Blair wrote:<br /> {{cquote|I have spent the last week mulling over what I want to do at this point in the movement. I’m tired of the in-fighting: at every level. I am especially tired of allowing myself to get sucked into it and engaging in the very behavior that is irritating..me.<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The atheist Brendan O'Neill wrote in ''The Telegraph'' in an article entitled ''How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'': "These days, barely a week passes without the emergence of yet more evidence that atheists are the most irritating people on Earth."<ref>[http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100230985/how-atheists-became-the-most-colossally-smug-and-annoying-people-on-the-planet/ Brendan O'Neill, ''The Telegraph, How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'', August 14th, 2013]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information please see: <br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence|Atheism and emotional intelligence]]<br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and immaturity]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and violence]]<br /> *[[Atheists and conflict resolution]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[http://www.bethinking.org/is-religion-harmful/religion-causes-wars "Religion causes wars"] by Tom Price<br /> *[http://carm.org/religion-cause-war The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War] by Robin Schumacher at [[CARM]]<br /> <br /> ==Notes and references==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: War]]<br /> [[Category: History]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Irreligion/religion_and_war&diff=1686025 Irreligion/religion and war 2020-09-13T09:35:03Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:NorthKorea location.png|thumbnail|right|200px|Countries with high levels of [[atheism]], such as [[North Korea]], have not necessarily been the most peaceful countries.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>]]<br /> Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK, wrote in her article entitled ''Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer For?'':<br /> {{Cquote|But academic studies consistently challenge the link between [[religion]] and [[war]]. [http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/news/1085 Research published in October from the New York and Sydney-based Institute for Economics and Peace] looked at all of the wars that took place in 2013. It found no 'general causal relationship' between religion and conflict.<br /> <br /> In fact, religious elements played no role at all in 14 (40%) of the 35 armed conflicts in the research, and only five (14%) had religious elements as their main cause, the report showed. All of the wars had multiple causes, and the much more common motivation was opposition to a government, or to the economic, ideological, political or social systems of a state, which was named as a main factor in nearly two thirds of the cases studied.<br /> <br /> The ''Encyclopedia of Wars'', an extensive study published in 2008, chronicles 1,763 wars throughout human history. It names just 123 as 'religious in nature' – a little under 7%.<br /> <br /> The [http://economicsandpeace.org/ Institute for Economics and Peace] report also found that having less religion in a country doesn’t make it more peaceful. The proportion of atheists in a country had no bearing on levels of peace.<br /> <br /> Countries with the highest levels of [[atheism]] – mainly [[communism|communist]] or former communist states like [[Russia]] and the [[Czech Republic]] – were not necessarily the most peaceful. [[North Korea]], which has one of the lowest rates of people practising religion, was one of ten 'least peaceful' countries in world last year, according to the report.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Britain's thinktank Theos notes: "For the first, two academics (Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod) surveyed 1,800 conflicts and found that less than 10% involved religion at all.<ref>[https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2018/08/31/religion-a-cause-of-war-or-a-means-of-peace Religion: A Cause of War or a Means of Peace?]</ref><br /> <br /> In his book ''The Irrational Atheist'', [[Vox Day]] wrote:<br /> {{Cquote|It’s also interesting to note that more than half of these religious wars, sixty-six in all, were waged by [[Islam]]ic nations, which is rather more than might be statistically expected considering that the first war in which Islam was involved took place almost three millennia after the first war chronicled in the Encyclopedia, Akkad’s conquest of Sumer in 2325 B . C .<br /> <br /> In light of this evidence, the fact that a specific religion is currently sparking a great deal of<br /> conflict around the globe cannot reasonably be used to indict all religious faith, especially when one<br /> considers that removing that single religion from the equation means that all of the other religious<br /> faiths combined only account for 3.35 percent of humanity’s wars.<ref>[http://www.voxday.net/mart/TIA_free.pdf The Irrational Atheist - Abbreviated free copy on PDF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The abstract for the academic paper ''Empirical Perspectives on Religion and Violence'' by Joshua David Wright and Yuelee Khoo indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|The ‘religion as cause’ argument implies that religious faiths are more inherently prone to violence than ideologies that are secular. Following an evaluation of the scientific literature on religion and violence, we argue that wherever evidence links specific aspects of religion with aggression and violence, these aspects are not unique to religion. Rather, these aspects are religious variants of more general psychological processes. Further, there are numerous aspects of religion that buffer against aggression and violence among its adherents. The most distinct feature of religion, supernaturalism, is not often the focus of researchers of religion and violence. Despite this, the paucity of research that has been conducted on this key feature suggests that supernaturalism is associated with reduced aggression and violence. There appears to be very little support for the notion that there is something uniquely religious that causes violence among followers.<ref>[https://psyarxiv.co''m/gzspe/ ''Empirical Perspectives on Religion and Violence'' by Joshua David Wright and Yuelee Khoo], ''Contemporary Voices: St. Andrews Journal of International Relations'', December 10, 2018</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == In Foreign Policy atheist Scott Atran indicates religion is not a major causal factor for wars ==<br /> [[File:Vox Day.jpg|thumbnail|right|175px|[[Vox Day]] ]] <br /> Vox Day wrote in his article entitled ''Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument'':<br /> <br /> :"Scott Atran is the first atheist to publicly come out and [http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/god_and_the_ivory_tower?page=0,2 admit the historical nonexistence] of the oft-claimed connection between religion and war in ''Foreign Policy'':<br /> <br /> ::Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.<br /> <br /> :Not only does Atran accept the argument I originally presented in a WND article before refining it in The Irrational Atheist, but his article is actually much less of a Fighting Withdrawal than the misleading subtitle - What we don't understand about religion just might kill us - would lead the casual reader to believe."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/08/atheists-abandon-religion-causes-war.html Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument]</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism and mass murder ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and mass murder]] and [[militant atheism]]<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|left|200px|thumb|The brutal [[atheism|atheist]] [[Joseph Stalin]] was greatly influenced by the work of [[Charles Darwin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref>]]<br /> It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic [[communism]] have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives.<ref><br /> *[http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/finalconflict/fcrevb102.html The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM]<br /> *[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm]<br /> *[http://www.sarasotamagazine.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=365 Memory and Ideology]*[http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2526 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression]</ref> Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.<ref>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM</ref><br /> <br /> [[Vox Day]] notes concerning atheism and mass murder:<br /> {{cquote|Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao … <br /> <br /> The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.<br /> <br /> The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.<br /> <br /> Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!<ref>http://creation.com/atheism</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and the issue of world peace ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and world peace]]<br /> <br /> == World War I, World War II and Darwinism ==<br /> <br /> Historically, the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution|theory of evolution]] which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists or [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref name="Batten and Sarfati">Multiple references:<br /> * Batten, Dr. Don (December 1997). [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists "A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists"]. Creation Ministries International. Originally published in ''Creation'' 20(1):32. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> * Sarfati, Jonathan, Ph.D., F.M. (1999). [http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-chapter-1-evolution-creation-science-religion-facts-bias "Chapter 1: Facts and bias", ''Refuting Evolution'']. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The founder of [[Darwinism]], [[Charles Darwin]], was an [[agnosticism|agnostic]]/[[weak atheism|weak atheist]] (see: [[Religious views of Charles Darwin]]).<br /> <br /> === Charles Darwin's ideas on the white race exterminating other races which he claimed were inferior ===<br /> [[File:CharlesDarwin.jpg|right|thumb|175px|[[Charles Darwin|Charles Darwin]] ]] <br /> ''See also:'' [[Evolutionary racism]] and [[Social Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Charles Darwin wrote in his work ''[[The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex]]'':<br /> {{cquote|At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.<ref>http://www.aim.org/wls/90/</ref><ref name="DoM6">[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/dscmn10.txt The Descent of Man], chapter VI</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === WWI and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Historian Jacques Barzun observed how [[Evolution|Darwinism]] caused the horrendous brutality of the wars leading up to [[World War I]]: "Since in every European country between 1870 and 1914 there was a war party demanding armaments, an individualist party demanding ruthless competition, an imperialist party demanding a free hand over backward peoples, a socialist party demanding the conquest of power and a racialist party demanding internal purges against aliens — all of them, when appeals to greed and glory failed, invoked [[Herbert Spencer|Spencer]] and [[Charles Darwin|Darwin]], which was to say science incarnate."<ref>[http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan/making-a-monkey-out-of-darwin.html Making a monkey out of Darwinism]</ref><br /> <br /> According to Annika Mombauer, senior lecturer in history at the Open University in London and the author of numerous books and articles on World War I:<br /> {{cquote|Many of the decision makers and, in fact, many ordinary [[Europe]]ans did feel that war would eventually come. You have to think of another "-ism" -- [[social Darwinism]], this belief that nations and peoples are subject to the same biological laws as animals and that they are going to either rise to the top or they are going to be eliminated in a vying for power."<ref>[http://www.rferl.org/content/wwi-key-questions-war-anniversary-historians/25472768.html World War I Anniversary: Five Historians, Two Questions, Radio Free Europe]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-world-war-one Darwinism and World War One] and [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi race Holocaust] and [[Social effects of the theory of evolution|Social effects of evolutionary ideology]]<br /> <br /> === WWII, Nazism and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ==== Charles Darwin, Nazi ideology development and eugenics ====<br /> <br /> In a [[Creation Ministries International]] article entitled ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'', [[Bill Muehlenberg]] writes:<br /> {{cquote|‘Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new “scientific” justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as “inferior”. … Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’<ref>[http://creation.com/darwin-and-eugenics ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'' by Bill Muehlenberg]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In addition, Dennis Sewell declared cornering the Darwin family:<br /> {{cquote|[In the] years leading up to the First World War, the eugenics movement looked like a Darwin family business. … Darwin’s son Leonard replaced his cousin Galton as chairman of the national Eugenics Society in 1911. In the same year an offshoot of the society was formed in Cambridge. Among its leading members were three more of Charles Darwin’s sons, Horace, Francis and George.” <ref>[http://creation.com/eugenics-a-darwin-family-business Eugenics: “a Darwin family business”]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Evolution and Nazism: Some key historical figures ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> [[Image:Hitlerspeech.jpg|thumb|300px|left|[[Adolf Hitler]]]]<br /> <br /> The March 9, 1907 edition of the [[NY Times]] refers to [[Ernst Haeckel]] as the "celebrated Darwinian and founder of the Association for the Propagation of Ethical Atheism."<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03EFDD123EE033A2575AC0A9659C946697D6CF</ref><br /> <br /> The staunch evolutionist and agnostic [[Stephen Gould]] admitted: <br /> {{cquote|Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in [[Germany]].... His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science - all contributed to the rise of Nazism. - Stephen J. Gould, "Ontogeny and Phylogeny," Belknap Press: Cambridge MA, 1977, pp.77-78).<ref>http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/social.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler]] wrote the following [[Evolutionary racism|evolutionary racist]] material in his work ''[[Mein Kampf]]'':<br /> {{cquote|If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.<ref>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] also wrote in ''Mein Kampf'':<br /> {{cquote|The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable.<ref>http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=268</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. Robert E.D. Clark also wrote:<br /> {{cquote|“Adolf Hitler’s mind was captivated by evolutionary teaching — probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas — quite undisguised — lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf — and in his public speeches.”<ref>http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_holocaust_why_did_it_happen</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Joseph_mengel.jpg|thumb|300px|[[Josef Mengele]] ]] <br /> Dr. [[Josef Mengele]]'s evolutionary thinking was in accordance with [[Social Darwinism|social Darwinist]] theories that [[Adolph Hitler]] and a number of [[German]] academics found appealing.<ref>[http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust]</ref><ref>[http://creation.com/herero-genocide Herero Genecide]</ref> Dr. Joseph Mengele studied under the leading proponents the "unworthy life" branch of evolutionary thought.<ref>[http://creation.com/refutation-of-new-scientists-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions-nazi-darwin-link The Darwin–Hitler connection]</ref> Dr. Mengele was one of the most notorious individuals associated with [[Nazi]] death camps and the [[Holocaust]].<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> Mengele obtained a infamous reputation due to his experiments on twins while at [[Auschwitz]]-Birkenau.<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> <br /> <br /> B. Wilder-Smith wrote the following regarding [[Nazism]] and the theory of evolution: <br /> {{cquote|One of the central planks in Nazi theory and doctrine was …evolutionary theory [and] … that all biology had evolved … upward, and that … less evolved types … should be actively eradicated [and] … that natural selection could and should be actively aided, and therefore [the Nazis] instituted political measures to eradicate … [[Jew]]s, and … blacks, whom they considered as “underdeveloped”.’<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i2/nazi.asp</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Pulitzer Prize]] winning author Marilynne Robinson wrote the following regarding Hitler's racism in the November 2006 issue of Harper’s Magazine: <br /> {{cquote|While it is true that persecution of the Jews has a very long history in Europe, it is also true that science in the twentieth century revived and absolutized persecution by giving it a fresh rationale — Jewishness was not religious or cultural, but genetic. Therefore no appeal could be made against the brute fact of a Jewish grandparent...<br /> <br /> There is indeed [[history|historical]] precedent in the [[Spanish Inquisition]] for the notion of hereditary Judaism. But the fact that the worst religious thought of the sixteenth century can be likened to the worst scientific thought of the twentieth century hardly redounds to the credit of science."<ref>http://solutions.synearth.net/2006/10/20</ref>}}<br /> <br /> As noted earlier, evolutionary ideas significantly influenced the thinking of the nineteenth and twentieth-century [[Communism|Communists]].<ref>http://creation.com/content/view/1804/</ref><ref>http://creation.com/charles-darwins-impactthe-bloodstained-legacy-of-evolution</ref> Karl Marx wrote in a letter the following, ""Darwin's book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the [[class struggle]] in history." Darwin's ideas also influenced the thinking of [[Friedrich Engels|Engels]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], and [[Joseph Stalin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref><br /> <br /> === WWII, Benito Mussolini, atheism, Darwinism and violence ===<br /> <br /> Italy was on the [[Axis powers]] in WWII and an ally of [[Nazi Germany]]. <br /> [[File:Mussolini.gif|thumbnail|left|200px|[[Benito Mussolini]] ]]<br /> [[Benito Mussolini]] (1883-1945) was the [[Fascist]] dictator of [[Italy]].<br /> A life-long [[socialist]] intellectual<ref>''[[Liberal Fascism]]'', [[Jonah Goldberg]], Page 31</ref> and self-proclaimed "socialist heretic", he was nominated prime minister by Vittorio Emanuele III di Savoia, King of Italy, in the time of [[World War II]]. He was head of one of the strong forms of government seen in Europe in this time. He created the political structure Fasci Italiani di Combatimento, which is what later would be known as [[Fascism]], a term which was later used to describe the merging of government and corporation. He was responsible for several war crimes in [[Ethiopia]] and [[Yugoslavia]].<br /> <br /> In his work entitled Mussolini Denis Mack Smith wrote:<br /> {{cquote|From his father he [Mussolini] had learnt to be a thoroughgoing anti-clerical. He proclaimed himself to be an [[Atheism|atheist]] and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead. He forcibly denounced those socialists who thought religion a matter for individual conscience or had their children baptised. [In Mussolini's opinion] Science had proved that God did not exist and the Jesus of history was an ignorant Jew whose family thought him mad, and who was a pigmy compared to the Buddha. Religion, he said, was a disease of the psyche, an epidemic to be cured by psychiatrists, and Christianity in particular was vitiated by preaching the senseless virtues of resignation and cowardice, whereas the new socialist morality should celebrate violence and rebellion."<ref>"Mussolini", by Denis Mack Smith, Vintage Books, 1983, page 8.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. David N. Menton wrote about the effect Darwinism had upon Mussolini:<br /> {{cquote|Benito Mussolini, who brought fascism to Italy, was also greatly influenced by Darwinism, which he thought supported his belief that violence is essential for beneficial social transformation. Mussolini repeatedly used Darwinian catchwords in his speeches and ridiculed efforts at peace because they interfered with natural evolutionary process.<ref>[http://www.gennet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:the-religion-of-nature-social-darwinism&catid=8:mac-speakers The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism] by David N. Menton, Ph.D.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Irreligion/religion and love/peace ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> <br /> From a [[Metaphysics|metaphysical]], moral and spiritual perspective, atheists have an inability to satisfactorily explain the existence of [[love]].<ref>[http://www.strangenotions.com/atheists-love/ How do atheists define love?] by Dr. Taylor Marshall</ref><ref>[https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/what-is-love-how-materialist-atheism-fails-to-have-a-satisfactory-answer/ What is love? how materialist atheism fails to have a satisfactory answer], July 9, 2014</ref> See also: [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> [[File:Fra Angelico Lamentacion por la muerte de Cristo.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> ]]<br /> [[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> For example, the [[New Testament]] teaches that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25). See also: [[Agape]]<br /> <br /> In his article ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love'', Monk Themistocles (Adamopoulo) wrote:<br /> {{cquote|It is generally agreed by scholars and saints that the teaching of "love" and charity represent one of the essential dimensions of the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. Accordingly, from the extant words and parables of Jesus many concern themselves with the message of love. For example on the Sunday of Meat Fare, from the Gospel of Matthew, we hear Jesus identifying Himself and in solidarity with the destitute, the suffering, the rejected and the oppressed, calling for and rewarding altruistic philanthropy:<br /> <br /> "... I was hungry and you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in, when naked you clothed me, when I was ill you came to my help, when in prison you visited me ... I tell you this anything you did for one of my brothers here, however humble, you did it for me." (Matt 25:35-36, 40)...<br /> <br /> Christians undertook a great deal of almsgiving to the poor not only to fellow believers but to pagans as well. So amazed was the anti-Christian pagan emperor Julian the Apostate (361-363 AD), with the sheer benevolence and excellence of Christian philanthropy that he was forced to admit in wonder their superiority over paganism in matters of charity:<br /> <br /> "These godless Galileans (ie. Christians) feed not only their own poor but ours: our poor lack our care" (Ep. Sozom. 5:16).<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians]]<br /> <br /> === Economic instability, war, economic development, charity and religion/irreligion ===<br /> <br /> [[File:Calcutta beggar.jpg|thumbnail|right|280px|Beggar in [[Calcutta]], India.<br /> <br /><br /><br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists. See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]] ]]<br /> Economic instability is a causal factor for war.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122240/ BMJ. Feb 9, 2002; 324(7333): 0. Inequality and poverty cause war]</ref> <br /> <br /> The Christian relief organization World Vision Australia notes that out of the 150 or more major conflicts since World War II, 130 of these were in poor countries.<ref>[http://www.worldvision.com.au/libraries/3_1_1_issues_-_war/war_and_poverty.pdf War and Poverty by World Vision Australia]</ref> And economic instability was one of the causal factors of WWII.<ref>[http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII_Great_Depression.htm The Great Depression and and WWII]</ref> <br /> <br /> In terms of economic development, biblical Christianity has historically had a positive affect on countries.<ref><br /> *[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012<br /> *[http://creation.com/christianity-as-progress ''Christianity as progress: A review of The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark<br /> Random House, New York, 2005''] by Lael Weinberger<br /> *[http://creation.com/the-biblical-origins-of-science-review-of-stark-for-the-glory-of-god The biblical origins of science: A review of For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark] by Alex Williams</ref> [[Harvard University]] historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history." (See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism|Protestant work ethic and capitalism]]).<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref><br /> <br /> See also:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and communism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Soviet atheism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Secular left]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and politics]]<br /> <br /> ==== Charity: Religiousness vs. irreligiousness ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]<br /> <br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists (See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]).<br /> <br /> Dr. [[William Lane Craig]] points out that the social science research indicates that atheists who have family/social contacts with religious people give more to charity than atheists who do not have such an influence.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imuaiRO5mSQ&feature=sub Christians Give more to Charity than Atheists] ([[YouTube]] video featuring an audio clip of Dr. [[William Lane Craig]])</ref><br /> <br /> === Atheist arrogance/anger/quarrelsomeness ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheist bullying]] and [[Atheist movement]] and [[Internet atheism]]<br /> <br /> The [[Saint Paul|Apostle Paul]] taught that arrogance and easily provoked anger are antithetical to love (1 Corinthians 13: 4-5). The atheist population has a significant problem with pride, anger and quarrelsomeness (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]] and [[Atheism and anger]] and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]).<br /> <br /> [[File:G. Christina.jpg|thumbnail|left|275px|Picture of [[Greta Christina]] in 2010.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <small>(photo from [https://www.flickr.com/photos/danielgipps/4988339630/in/photolist-2rDM3o-bt3Ftm-bFXxr4-5nz1zL-7fobnw-7fobys-7fjigk-7fjiwX-7fobh5-5T99Aj-5T4L6K-5T98K1-5T96wf-5T4NZF-7e8Beb-7c7bCe-7e8zi9-7caZdy-8ANxzG-7e8xjS-8AKsPT-68xpDc-68xpDt-6rdw8-bHrFL6-bHrFKZ-fznm8w-eUwdEY-bqezJr-e3JzYN-fQtemN-axf5DW-dQotEq-7agx5n-okT16-MvRwB-8ANxss-8ANxSw-8UMG16-9LdtG8-bnvf16-adV2DK-bG97z6-bG97fc-bG96TK-btehjh-82T2J-oAdNG-2VKxNd-2uHoFH Flickr], see: [https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ license agreement])</small>]]<br /> <br /> The atheist and [[lesbianism|lesbian]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement."<ref>Mooney, Chris (May 14, 2012). [http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ "Greta Christina—Why are you atheists so angry?"] [interview of Greta Christina] Point of Inquiry website. Retrieved on October 6, 2014.</ref><br /> <br /> [[Blair Scott]] served on the [[American Atheists]] board of directors. Mr. Scott formerly served as a State Director for the [[American Atheists]] organization in the state of [[Alabama]]. On December 1, 2012 he quit his post as a director of outreach for the American Atheist due to infighting within the American [[atheist movement]].<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref> <br /> <br /> Mr. Blair wrote:<br /> {{cquote|I have spent the last week mulling over what I want to do at this point in the movement. I’m tired of the in-fighting: at every level. I am especially tired of allowing myself to get sucked into it and engaging in the very behavior that is irritating..me.<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The atheist Brendan O'Neill wrote in ''The Telegraph'' in an article entitled ''How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'': "These days, barely a week passes without the emergence of yet more evidence that atheists are the most irritating people on Earth."<ref>[http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100230985/how-atheists-became-the-most-colossally-smug-and-annoying-people-on-the-planet/ Brendan O'Neill, ''The Telegraph, How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'', August 14th, 2013]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information please see: <br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence|Atheism and emotional intelligence]]<br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and immaturity]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and violence]]<br /> *[[Atheists and conflict resolution]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[http://www.bethinking.org/is-religion-harmful/religion-causes-wars "Religion causes wars"] by Tom Price<br /> *[http://carm.org/religion-cause-war The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War] by Robin Schumacher at [[CARM]]<br /> <br /> ==Notes and references==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: War]]<br /> [[Category: History]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Irreligion/religion_and_war&diff=1686024 Irreligion/religion and war 2020-09-13T09:30:27Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:NorthKorea location.png|thumbnail|right|200px|Countries with high levels of [[atheism]], such as [[North Korea]], have not necessarily been the most peaceful countries.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>]]<br /> Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK, wrote in her article entitled ''Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer For?'':<br /> {{Cquote|But academic studies consistently challenge the link between [[religion]] and [[war]]. [http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/news/1085 Research published in October from the New York and Sydney-based Institute for Economics and Peace] looked at all of the wars that took place in 2013. It found no 'general causal relationship' between religion and conflict.<br /> <br /> In fact, religious elements played no role at all in 14 (40%) of the 35 armed conflicts in the research, and only five (14%) had religious elements as their main cause, the report showed. All of the wars had multiple causes, and the much more common motivation was opposition to a government, or to the economic, ideological, political or social systems of a state, which was named as a main factor in nearly two thirds of the cases studied.<br /> <br /> The ''Encyclopedia of Wars'', an extensive study published in 2008, chronicles 1,763 wars throughout human history. It names just 123 as 'religious in nature' – a little under 7%.<br /> <br /> The [http://economicsandpeace.org/ Institute for Economics and Peace] report also found that having less religion in a country doesn’t make it more peaceful. The proportion of atheists in a country had no bearing on levels of peace.<br /> <br /> Countries with the highest levels of [[atheism]] – mainly [[communism|communist]] or former communist states like [[Russia]] and the [[Czech Republic]] – were not necessarily the most peaceful. [[North Korea]], which has one of the lowest rates of people practising religion, was one of ten 'least peaceful' countries in world last year, according to the report.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In his book ''The Irrational Atheist'', [[Vox Day]] wrote:<br /> {{Cquote|It’s also interesting to note that more than half of these religious wars, sixty-six in all, were waged by [[Islam]]ic nations, which is rather more than might be statistically expected considering that the first war in which Islam was involved took place almost three millennia after the first war chronicled in the Encyclopedia, Akkad’s conquest of Sumer in 2325 B . C .<br /> <br /> In light of this evidence, the fact that a specific religion is currently sparking a great deal of<br /> conflict around the globe cannot reasonably be used to indict all religious faith, especially when one<br /> considers that removing that single religion from the equation means that all of the other religious<br /> faiths combined only account for 3.35 percent of humanity’s wars.<ref>[http://www.voxday.net/mart/TIA_free.pdf The Irrational Atheist - Abbreviated free copy on PDF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The abstract for the academic paper ''Empirical Perspectives on Religion and Violence'' by Joshua David Wright and Yuelee Khoo indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|The ‘religion as cause’ argument implies that religious faiths are more inherently prone to violence than ideologies that are secular. Following an evaluation of the scientific literature on religion and violence, we argue that wherever evidence links specific aspects of religion with aggression and violence, these aspects are not unique to religion. Rather, these aspects are religious variants of more general psychological processes. Further, there are numerous aspects of religion that buffer against aggression and violence among its adherents. The most distinct feature of religion, supernaturalism, is not often the focus of researchers of religion and violence. Despite this, the paucity of research that has been conducted on this key feature suggests that supernaturalism is associated with reduced aggression and violence. There appears to be very little support for the notion that there is something uniquely religious that causes violence among followers.<ref>[https://psyarxiv.co''m/gzspe/ ''Empirical Perspectives on Religion and Violence'' by Joshua David Wright and Yuelee Khoo], ''Contemporary Voices: St. Andrews Journal of International Relations'', December 10, 2018</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == In Foreign Policy atheist Scott Atran indicates religion is not a major causal factor for wars ==<br /> [[File:Vox Day.jpg|thumbnail|right|175px|[[Vox Day]] ]] <br /> Vox Day wrote in his article entitled ''Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument'':<br /> <br /> :"Scott Atran is the first atheist to publicly come out and [http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/god_and_the_ivory_tower?page=0,2 admit the historical nonexistence] of the oft-claimed connection between religion and war in ''Foreign Policy'':<br /> <br /> ::Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.<br /> <br /> :Not only does Atran accept the argument I originally presented in a WND article before refining it in The Irrational Atheist, but his article is actually much less of a Fighting Withdrawal than the misleading subtitle - What we don't understand about religion just might kill us - would lead the casual reader to believe."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/08/atheists-abandon-religion-causes-war.html Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument]</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism and mass murder ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and mass murder]] and [[militant atheism]]<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|left|200px|thumb|The brutal [[atheism|atheist]] [[Joseph Stalin]] was greatly influenced by the work of [[Charles Darwin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref>]]<br /> It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic [[communism]] have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives.<ref><br /> *[http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/finalconflict/fcrevb102.html The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM]<br /> *[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm]<br /> *[http://www.sarasotamagazine.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=365 Memory and Ideology]*[http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2526 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression]</ref> Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.<ref>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM</ref><br /> <br /> [[Vox Day]] notes concerning atheism and mass murder:<br /> {{cquote|Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao … <br /> <br /> The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.<br /> <br /> The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.<br /> <br /> Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!<ref>http://creation.com/atheism</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and the issue of world peace ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and world peace]]<br /> <br /> == World War I, World War II and Darwinism ==<br /> <br /> Historically, the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution|theory of evolution]] which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists or [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref name="Batten and Sarfati">Multiple references:<br /> * Batten, Dr. Don (December 1997). [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists "A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists"]. Creation Ministries International. Originally published in ''Creation'' 20(1):32. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> * Sarfati, Jonathan, Ph.D., F.M. (1999). [http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-chapter-1-evolution-creation-science-religion-facts-bias "Chapter 1: Facts and bias", ''Refuting Evolution'']. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The founder of [[Darwinism]], [[Charles Darwin]], was an [[agnosticism|agnostic]]/[[weak atheism|weak atheist]] (see: [[Religious views of Charles Darwin]]).<br /> <br /> === Charles Darwin's ideas on the white race exterminating other races which he claimed were inferior ===<br /> [[File:CharlesDarwin.jpg|right|thumb|175px|[[Charles Darwin|Charles Darwin]] ]] <br /> ''See also:'' [[Evolutionary racism]] and [[Social Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Charles Darwin wrote in his work ''[[The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex]]'':<br /> {{cquote|At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.<ref>http://www.aim.org/wls/90/</ref><ref name="DoM6">[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/dscmn10.txt The Descent of Man], chapter VI</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === WWI and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Historian Jacques Barzun observed how [[Evolution|Darwinism]] caused the horrendous brutality of the wars leading up to [[World War I]]: "Since in every European country between 1870 and 1914 there was a war party demanding armaments, an individualist party demanding ruthless competition, an imperialist party demanding a free hand over backward peoples, a socialist party demanding the conquest of power and a racialist party demanding internal purges against aliens — all of them, when appeals to greed and glory failed, invoked [[Herbert Spencer|Spencer]] and [[Charles Darwin|Darwin]], which was to say science incarnate."<ref>[http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan/making-a-monkey-out-of-darwin.html Making a monkey out of Darwinism]</ref><br /> <br /> According to Annika Mombauer, senior lecturer in history at the Open University in London and the author of numerous books and articles on World War I:<br /> {{cquote|Many of the decision makers and, in fact, many ordinary [[Europe]]ans did feel that war would eventually come. You have to think of another "-ism" -- [[social Darwinism]], this belief that nations and peoples are subject to the same biological laws as animals and that they are going to either rise to the top or they are going to be eliminated in a vying for power."<ref>[http://www.rferl.org/content/wwi-key-questions-war-anniversary-historians/25472768.html World War I Anniversary: Five Historians, Two Questions, Radio Free Europe]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-world-war-one Darwinism and World War One] and [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi race Holocaust] and [[Social effects of the theory of evolution|Social effects of evolutionary ideology]]<br /> <br /> === WWII, Nazism and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ==== Charles Darwin, Nazi ideology development and eugenics ====<br /> <br /> In a [[Creation Ministries International]] article entitled ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'', [[Bill Muehlenberg]] writes:<br /> {{cquote|‘Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new “scientific” justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as “inferior”. … Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’<ref>[http://creation.com/darwin-and-eugenics ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'' by Bill Muehlenberg]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In addition, Dennis Sewell declared cornering the Darwin family:<br /> {{cquote|[In the] years leading up to the First World War, the eugenics movement looked like a Darwin family business. … Darwin’s son Leonard replaced his cousin Galton as chairman of the national Eugenics Society in 1911. In the same year an offshoot of the society was formed in Cambridge. Among its leading members were three more of Charles Darwin’s sons, Horace, Francis and George.” <ref>[http://creation.com/eugenics-a-darwin-family-business Eugenics: “a Darwin family business”]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Evolution and Nazism: Some key historical figures ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> [[Image:Hitlerspeech.jpg|thumb|300px|left|[[Adolf Hitler]]]]<br /> <br /> The March 9, 1907 edition of the [[NY Times]] refers to [[Ernst Haeckel]] as the "celebrated Darwinian and founder of the Association for the Propagation of Ethical Atheism."<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03EFDD123EE033A2575AC0A9659C946697D6CF</ref><br /> <br /> The staunch evolutionist and agnostic [[Stephen Gould]] admitted: <br /> {{cquote|Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in [[Germany]].... His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science - all contributed to the rise of Nazism. - Stephen J. Gould, "Ontogeny and Phylogeny," Belknap Press: Cambridge MA, 1977, pp.77-78).<ref>http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/social.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler]] wrote the following [[Evolutionary racism|evolutionary racist]] material in his work ''[[Mein Kampf]]'':<br /> {{cquote|If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.<ref>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] also wrote in ''Mein Kampf'':<br /> {{cquote|The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable.<ref>http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=268</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. Robert E.D. Clark also wrote:<br /> {{cquote|“Adolf Hitler’s mind was captivated by evolutionary teaching — probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas — quite undisguised — lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf — and in his public speeches.”<ref>http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_holocaust_why_did_it_happen</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Joseph_mengel.jpg|thumb|300px|[[Josef Mengele]] ]] <br /> Dr. [[Josef Mengele]]'s evolutionary thinking was in accordance with [[Social Darwinism|social Darwinist]] theories that [[Adolph Hitler]] and a number of [[German]] academics found appealing.<ref>[http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust]</ref><ref>[http://creation.com/herero-genocide Herero Genecide]</ref> Dr. Joseph Mengele studied under the leading proponents the "unworthy life" branch of evolutionary thought.<ref>[http://creation.com/refutation-of-new-scientists-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions-nazi-darwin-link The Darwin–Hitler connection]</ref> Dr. Mengele was one of the most notorious individuals associated with [[Nazi]] death camps and the [[Holocaust]].<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> Mengele obtained a infamous reputation due to his experiments on twins while at [[Auschwitz]]-Birkenau.<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> <br /> <br /> B. Wilder-Smith wrote the following regarding [[Nazism]] and the theory of evolution: <br /> {{cquote|One of the central planks in Nazi theory and doctrine was …evolutionary theory [and] … that all biology had evolved … upward, and that … less evolved types … should be actively eradicated [and] … that natural selection could and should be actively aided, and therefore [the Nazis] instituted political measures to eradicate … [[Jew]]s, and … blacks, whom they considered as “underdeveloped”.’<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i2/nazi.asp</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Pulitzer Prize]] winning author Marilynne Robinson wrote the following regarding Hitler's racism in the November 2006 issue of Harper’s Magazine: <br /> {{cquote|While it is true that persecution of the Jews has a very long history in Europe, it is also true that science in the twentieth century revived and absolutized persecution by giving it a fresh rationale — Jewishness was not religious or cultural, but genetic. Therefore no appeal could be made against the brute fact of a Jewish grandparent...<br /> <br /> There is indeed [[history|historical]] precedent in the [[Spanish Inquisition]] for the notion of hereditary Judaism. But the fact that the worst religious thought of the sixteenth century can be likened to the worst scientific thought of the twentieth century hardly redounds to the credit of science."<ref>http://solutions.synearth.net/2006/10/20</ref>}}<br /> <br /> As noted earlier, evolutionary ideas significantly influenced the thinking of the nineteenth and twentieth-century [[Communism|Communists]].<ref>http://creation.com/content/view/1804/</ref><ref>http://creation.com/charles-darwins-impactthe-bloodstained-legacy-of-evolution</ref> Karl Marx wrote in a letter the following, ""Darwin's book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the [[class struggle]] in history." Darwin's ideas also influenced the thinking of [[Friedrich Engels|Engels]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], and [[Joseph Stalin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref><br /> <br /> === WWII, Benito Mussolini, atheism, Darwinism and violence ===<br /> <br /> Italy was on the [[Axis powers]] in WWII and an ally of [[Nazi Germany]]. <br /> [[File:Mussolini.gif|thumbnail|left|200px|[[Benito Mussolini]] ]]<br /> [[Benito Mussolini]] (1883-1945) was the [[Fascist]] dictator of [[Italy]].<br /> A life-long [[socialist]] intellectual<ref>''[[Liberal Fascism]]'', [[Jonah Goldberg]], Page 31</ref> and self-proclaimed "socialist heretic", he was nominated prime minister by Vittorio Emanuele III di Savoia, King of Italy, in the time of [[World War II]]. He was head of one of the strong forms of government seen in Europe in this time. He created the political structure Fasci Italiani di Combatimento, which is what later would be known as [[Fascism]], a term which was later used to describe the merging of government and corporation. He was responsible for several war crimes in [[Ethiopia]] and [[Yugoslavia]].<br /> <br /> In his work entitled Mussolini Denis Mack Smith wrote:<br /> {{cquote|From his father he [Mussolini] had learnt to be a thoroughgoing anti-clerical. He proclaimed himself to be an [[Atheism|atheist]] and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead. He forcibly denounced those socialists who thought religion a matter for individual conscience or had their children baptised. [In Mussolini's opinion] Science had proved that God did not exist and the Jesus of history was an ignorant Jew whose family thought him mad, and who was a pigmy compared to the Buddha. Religion, he said, was a disease of the psyche, an epidemic to be cured by psychiatrists, and Christianity in particular was vitiated by preaching the senseless virtues of resignation and cowardice, whereas the new socialist morality should celebrate violence and rebellion."<ref>"Mussolini", by Denis Mack Smith, Vintage Books, 1983, page 8.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. David N. Menton wrote about the effect Darwinism had upon Mussolini:<br /> {{cquote|Benito Mussolini, who brought fascism to Italy, was also greatly influenced by Darwinism, which he thought supported his belief that violence is essential for beneficial social transformation. Mussolini repeatedly used Darwinian catchwords in his speeches and ridiculed efforts at peace because they interfered with natural evolutionary process.<ref>[http://www.gennet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:the-religion-of-nature-social-darwinism&catid=8:mac-speakers The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism] by David N. Menton, Ph.D.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Irreligion/religion and love/peace ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> <br /> From a [[Metaphysics|metaphysical]], moral and spiritual perspective, atheists have an inability to satisfactorily explain the existence of [[love]].<ref>[http://www.strangenotions.com/atheists-love/ How do atheists define love?] by Dr. Taylor Marshall</ref><ref>[https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/what-is-love-how-materialist-atheism-fails-to-have-a-satisfactory-answer/ What is love? how materialist atheism fails to have a satisfactory answer], July 9, 2014</ref> See also: [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> [[File:Fra Angelico Lamentacion por la muerte de Cristo.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> ]]<br /> [[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> For example, the [[New Testament]] teaches that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25). See also: [[Agape]]<br /> <br /> In his article ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love'', Monk Themistocles (Adamopoulo) wrote:<br /> {{cquote|It is generally agreed by scholars and saints that the teaching of "love" and charity represent one of the essential dimensions of the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. Accordingly, from the extant words and parables of Jesus many concern themselves with the message of love. For example on the Sunday of Meat Fare, from the Gospel of Matthew, we hear Jesus identifying Himself and in solidarity with the destitute, the suffering, the rejected and the oppressed, calling for and rewarding altruistic philanthropy:<br /> <br /> "... I was hungry and you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in, when naked you clothed me, when I was ill you came to my help, when in prison you visited me ... I tell you this anything you did for one of my brothers here, however humble, you did it for me." (Matt 25:35-36, 40)...<br /> <br /> Christians undertook a great deal of almsgiving to the poor not only to fellow believers but to pagans as well. So amazed was the anti-Christian pagan emperor Julian the Apostate (361-363 AD), with the sheer benevolence and excellence of Christian philanthropy that he was forced to admit in wonder their superiority over paganism in matters of charity:<br /> <br /> "These godless Galileans (ie. Christians) feed not only their own poor but ours: our poor lack our care" (Ep. Sozom. 5:16).<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians]]<br /> <br /> === Economic instability, war, economic development, charity and religion/irreligion ===<br /> <br /> [[File:Calcutta beggar.jpg|thumbnail|right|280px|Beggar in [[Calcutta]], India.<br /> <br /><br /><br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists. See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]] ]]<br /> Economic instability is a causal factor for war.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122240/ BMJ. Feb 9, 2002; 324(7333): 0. Inequality and poverty cause war]</ref> <br /> <br /> The Christian relief organization World Vision Australia notes that out of the 150 or more major conflicts since World War II, 130 of these were in poor countries.<ref>[http://www.worldvision.com.au/libraries/3_1_1_issues_-_war/war_and_poverty.pdf War and Poverty by World Vision Australia]</ref> And economic instability was one of the causal factors of WWII.<ref>[http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII_Great_Depression.htm The Great Depression and and WWII]</ref> <br /> <br /> In terms of economic development, biblical Christianity has historically had a positive affect on countries.<ref><br /> *[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012<br /> *[http://creation.com/christianity-as-progress ''Christianity as progress: A review of The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark<br /> Random House, New York, 2005''] by Lael Weinberger<br /> *[http://creation.com/the-biblical-origins-of-science-review-of-stark-for-the-glory-of-god The biblical origins of science: A review of For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark] by Alex Williams</ref> [[Harvard University]] historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history." (See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism|Protestant work ethic and capitalism]]).<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref><br /> <br /> See also:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and communism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Soviet atheism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Secular left]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and politics]]<br /> <br /> ==== Charity: Religiousness vs. irreligiousness ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]<br /> <br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists (See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]).<br /> <br /> Dr. [[William Lane Craig]] points out that the social science research indicates that atheists who have family/social contacts with religious people give more to charity than atheists who do not have such an influence.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imuaiRO5mSQ&feature=sub Christians Give more to Charity than Atheists] ([[YouTube]] video featuring an audio clip of Dr. [[William Lane Craig]])</ref><br /> <br /> === Atheist arrogance/anger/quarrelsomeness ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheist bullying]] and [[Atheist movement]] and [[Internet atheism]]<br /> <br /> The [[Saint Paul|Apostle Paul]] taught that arrogance and easily provoked anger are antithetical to love (1 Corinthians 13: 4-5). The atheist population has a significant problem with pride, anger and quarrelsomeness (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]] and [[Atheism and anger]] and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]).<br /> <br /> [[File:G. Christina.jpg|thumbnail|left|275px|Picture of [[Greta Christina]] in 2010.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <small>(photo from [https://www.flickr.com/photos/danielgipps/4988339630/in/photolist-2rDM3o-bt3Ftm-bFXxr4-5nz1zL-7fobnw-7fobys-7fjigk-7fjiwX-7fobh5-5T99Aj-5T4L6K-5T98K1-5T96wf-5T4NZF-7e8Beb-7c7bCe-7e8zi9-7caZdy-8ANxzG-7e8xjS-8AKsPT-68xpDc-68xpDt-6rdw8-bHrFL6-bHrFKZ-fznm8w-eUwdEY-bqezJr-e3JzYN-fQtemN-axf5DW-dQotEq-7agx5n-okT16-MvRwB-8ANxss-8ANxSw-8UMG16-9LdtG8-bnvf16-adV2DK-bG97z6-bG97fc-bG96TK-btehjh-82T2J-oAdNG-2VKxNd-2uHoFH Flickr], see: [https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ license agreement])</small>]]<br /> <br /> The atheist and [[lesbianism|lesbian]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement."<ref>Mooney, Chris (May 14, 2012). [http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ "Greta Christina—Why are you atheists so angry?"] [interview of Greta Christina] Point of Inquiry website. Retrieved on October 6, 2014.</ref><br /> <br /> [[Blair Scott]] served on the [[American Atheists]] board of directors. Mr. Scott formerly served as a State Director for the [[American Atheists]] organization in the state of [[Alabama]]. On December 1, 2012 he quit his post as a director of outreach for the American Atheist due to infighting within the American [[atheist movement]].<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref> <br /> <br /> Mr. Blair wrote:<br /> {{cquote|I have spent the last week mulling over what I want to do at this point in the movement. I’m tired of the in-fighting: at every level. I am especially tired of allowing myself to get sucked into it and engaging in the very behavior that is irritating..me.<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The atheist Brendan O'Neill wrote in ''The Telegraph'' in an article entitled ''How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'': "These days, barely a week passes without the emergence of yet more evidence that atheists are the most irritating people on Earth."<ref>[http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100230985/how-atheists-became-the-most-colossally-smug-and-annoying-people-on-the-planet/ Brendan O'Neill, ''The Telegraph, How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'', August 14th, 2013]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information please see: <br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence|Atheism and emotional intelligence]]<br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and immaturity]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and violence]]<br /> *[[Atheists and conflict resolution]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[http://www.bethinking.org/is-religion-harmful/religion-causes-wars "Religion causes wars"] by Tom Price<br /> *[http://carm.org/religion-cause-war The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War] by Robin Schumacher at [[CARM]]<br /> <br /> ==Notes and references==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: War]]<br /> [[Category: History]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Irreligion/religion_and_war&diff=1686023 Irreligion/religion and war 2020-09-13T09:19:30Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheism and mass murder */</p> <hr /> <div>[[File:NorthKorea location.png|thumbnail|right|200px|Countries with high levels of [[atheism]], such as [[North Korea]], have not necessarily been the most peaceful countries.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>]]<br /> Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK, wrote in her article entitled ''Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer For?'':<br /> {{Cquote|But academic studies consistently challenge the link between [[religion]] and [[war]]. [http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/news/1085 Research published in October from the New York and Sydney-based Institute for Economics and Peace] looked at all of the wars that took place in 2013. It found no 'general causal relationship' between religion and conflict.<br /> <br /> In fact, religious elements played no role at all in 14 (40%) of the 35 armed conflicts in the research, and only five (14%) had religious elements as their main cause, the report showed. All of the wars had multiple causes, and the much more common motivation was opposition to a government, or to the economic, ideological, political or social systems of a state, which was named as a main factor in nearly two thirds of the cases studied.<br /> <br /> The ''Encyclopedia of Wars'', an extensive study published in 2008, chronicles 1,763 wars throughout human history. It names just 123 as 'religious in nature' – a little under 7%.<br /> <br /> The [http://economicsandpeace.org/ Institute for Economics and Peace] report also found that having less religion in a country doesn’t make it more peaceful. The proportion of atheists in a country had no bearing on levels of peace.<br /> <br /> Countries with the highest levels of [[atheism]] – mainly [[communism|communist]] or former communist states like [[Russia]] and the [[Czech Republic]] – were not necessarily the most peaceful. [[North Korea]], which has one of the lowest rates of people practising religion, was one of ten 'least peaceful' countries in world last year, according to the report.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In his book ''The Irrational Atheist'', [[Vox Day]] wrote:<br /> {{Cquote|It’s also interesting to note that more than half of these religious wars, sixty-six in all, were waged by [[Islam]]ic nations, which is rather more than might be statistically expected considering that the first war in which Islam was involved took place almost three millennia after the first war chronicled in the Encyclopedia, Akkad’s conquest of Sumer in 2325 B . C .<br /> <br /> In light of this evidence, the fact that a specific religion is currently sparking a great deal of<br /> conflict around the globe cannot reasonably be used to indict all religious faith, especially when one<br /> considers that removing that single religion from the equation means that all of the other religious<br /> faiths combined only account for 3.35 percent of humanity’s wars.<ref>[http://www.voxday.net/mart/TIA_free.pdf The Irrational Atheist - Abbreviated free copy on PDF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == In Foreign Policy atheist Scott Atran indicates religion is not a major causal factor for wars ==<br /> [[File:Vox Day.jpg|thumbnail|right|175px|[[Vox Day]] ]] <br /> Vox Day wrote in his article entitled ''Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument'':<br /> <br /> :"Scott Atran is the first atheist to publicly come out and [http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/god_and_the_ivory_tower?page=0,2 admit the historical nonexistence] of the oft-claimed connection between religion and war in ''Foreign Policy'':<br /> <br /> ::Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.<br /> <br /> :Not only does Atran accept the argument I originally presented in a WND article before refining it in The Irrational Atheist, but his article is actually much less of a Fighting Withdrawal than the misleading subtitle - What we don't understand about religion just might kill us - would lead the casual reader to believe."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/08/atheists-abandon-religion-causes-war.html Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument]</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism and mass murder ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and mass murder]] and [[militant atheism]]<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|left|200px|thumb|The brutal [[atheism|atheist]] [[Joseph Stalin]] was greatly influenced by the work of [[Charles Darwin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref>]]<br /> It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic [[communism]] have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives.<ref><br /> *[http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/finalconflict/fcrevb102.html The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM]<br /> *[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm]<br /> *[http://www.sarasotamagazine.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=365 Memory and Ideology]*[http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2526 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression]</ref> Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.<ref>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM</ref><br /> <br /> [[Vox Day]] notes concerning atheism and mass murder:<br /> {{cquote|Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao … <br /> <br /> The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.<br /> <br /> The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.<br /> <br /> Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!<ref>http://creation.com/atheism</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and the issue of world peace ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and world peace]]<br /> <br /> == World War I, World War II and Darwinism ==<br /> <br /> Historically, the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution|theory of evolution]] which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists or [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref name="Batten and Sarfati">Multiple references:<br /> * Batten, Dr. Don (December 1997). [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists "A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists"]. Creation Ministries International. Originally published in ''Creation'' 20(1):32. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> * Sarfati, Jonathan, Ph.D., F.M. (1999). [http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-chapter-1-evolution-creation-science-religion-facts-bias "Chapter 1: Facts and bias", ''Refuting Evolution'']. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The founder of [[Darwinism]], [[Charles Darwin]], was an [[agnosticism|agnostic]]/[[weak atheism|weak atheist]] (see: [[Religious views of Charles Darwin]]).<br /> <br /> === Charles Darwin's ideas on the white race exterminating other races which he claimed were inferior ===<br /> [[File:CharlesDarwin.jpg|right|thumb|175px|[[Charles Darwin|Charles Darwin]] ]] <br /> ''See also:'' [[Evolutionary racism]] and [[Social Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Charles Darwin wrote in his work ''[[The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex]]'':<br /> {{cquote|At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.<ref>http://www.aim.org/wls/90/</ref><ref name="DoM6">[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/dscmn10.txt The Descent of Man], chapter VI</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === WWI and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Historian Jacques Barzun observed how [[Evolution|Darwinism]] caused the horrendous brutality of the wars leading up to [[World War I]]: "Since in every European country between 1870 and 1914 there was a war party demanding armaments, an individualist party demanding ruthless competition, an imperialist party demanding a free hand over backward peoples, a socialist party demanding the conquest of power and a racialist party demanding internal purges against aliens — all of them, when appeals to greed and glory failed, invoked [[Herbert Spencer|Spencer]] and [[Charles Darwin|Darwin]], which was to say science incarnate."<ref>[http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan/making-a-monkey-out-of-darwin.html Making a monkey out of Darwinism]</ref><br /> <br /> According to Annika Mombauer, senior lecturer in history at the Open University in London and the author of numerous books and articles on World War I:<br /> {{cquote|Many of the decision makers and, in fact, many ordinary [[Europe]]ans did feel that war would eventually come. You have to think of another "-ism" -- [[social Darwinism]], this belief that nations and peoples are subject to the same biological laws as animals and that they are going to either rise to the top or they are going to be eliminated in a vying for power."<ref>[http://www.rferl.org/content/wwi-key-questions-war-anniversary-historians/25472768.html World War I Anniversary: Five Historians, Two Questions, Radio Free Europe]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-world-war-one Darwinism and World War One] and [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi race Holocaust] and [[Social effects of the theory of evolution|Social effects of evolutionary ideology]]<br /> <br /> === WWII, Nazism and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ==== Charles Darwin, Nazi ideology development and eugenics ====<br /> <br /> In a [[Creation Ministries International]] article entitled ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'', [[Bill Muehlenberg]] writes:<br /> {{cquote|‘Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new “scientific” justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as “inferior”. … Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’<ref>[http://creation.com/darwin-and-eugenics ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'' by Bill Muehlenberg]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In addition, Dennis Sewell declared cornering the Darwin family:<br /> {{cquote|[In the] years leading up to the First World War, the eugenics movement looked like a Darwin family business. … Darwin’s son Leonard replaced his cousin Galton as chairman of the national Eugenics Society in 1911. In the same year an offshoot of the society was formed in Cambridge. Among its leading members were three more of Charles Darwin’s sons, Horace, Francis and George.” <ref>[http://creation.com/eugenics-a-darwin-family-business Eugenics: “a Darwin family business”]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Evolution and Nazism: Some key historical figures ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> [[Image:Hitlerspeech.jpg|thumb|300px|left|[[Adolf Hitler]]]]<br /> <br /> The March 9, 1907 edition of the [[NY Times]] refers to [[Ernst Haeckel]] as the "celebrated Darwinian and founder of the Association for the Propagation of Ethical Atheism."<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03EFDD123EE033A2575AC0A9659C946697D6CF</ref><br /> <br /> The staunch evolutionist and agnostic [[Stephen Gould]] admitted: <br /> {{cquote|Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in [[Germany]].... His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science - all contributed to the rise of Nazism. - Stephen J. Gould, "Ontogeny and Phylogeny," Belknap Press: Cambridge MA, 1977, pp.77-78).<ref>http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/social.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler]] wrote the following [[Evolutionary racism|evolutionary racist]] material in his work ''[[Mein Kampf]]'':<br /> {{cquote|If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.<ref>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] also wrote in ''Mein Kampf'':<br /> {{cquote|The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable.<ref>http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=268</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. Robert E.D. Clark also wrote:<br /> {{cquote|“Adolf Hitler’s mind was captivated by evolutionary teaching — probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas — quite undisguised — lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf — and in his public speeches.”<ref>http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_holocaust_why_did_it_happen</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Joseph_mengel.jpg|thumb|300px|[[Josef Mengele]] ]] <br /> Dr. [[Josef Mengele]]'s evolutionary thinking was in accordance with [[Social Darwinism|social Darwinist]] theories that [[Adolph Hitler]] and a number of [[German]] academics found appealing.<ref>[http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust]</ref><ref>[http://creation.com/herero-genocide Herero Genecide]</ref> Dr. Joseph Mengele studied under the leading proponents the "unworthy life" branch of evolutionary thought.<ref>[http://creation.com/refutation-of-new-scientists-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions-nazi-darwin-link The Darwin–Hitler connection]</ref> Dr. Mengele was one of the most notorious individuals associated with [[Nazi]] death camps and the [[Holocaust]].<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> Mengele obtained a infamous reputation due to his experiments on twins while at [[Auschwitz]]-Birkenau.<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> <br /> <br /> B. Wilder-Smith wrote the following regarding [[Nazism]] and the theory of evolution: <br /> {{cquote|One of the central planks in Nazi theory and doctrine was …evolutionary theory [and] … that all biology had evolved … upward, and that … less evolved types … should be actively eradicated [and] … that natural selection could and should be actively aided, and therefore [the Nazis] instituted political measures to eradicate … [[Jew]]s, and … blacks, whom they considered as “underdeveloped”.’<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i2/nazi.asp</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Pulitzer Prize]] winning author Marilynne Robinson wrote the following regarding Hitler's racism in the November 2006 issue of Harper’s Magazine: <br /> {{cquote|While it is true that persecution of the Jews has a very long history in Europe, it is also true that science in the twentieth century revived and absolutized persecution by giving it a fresh rationale — Jewishness was not religious or cultural, but genetic. Therefore no appeal could be made against the brute fact of a Jewish grandparent...<br /> <br /> There is indeed [[history|historical]] precedent in the [[Spanish Inquisition]] for the notion of hereditary Judaism. But the fact that the worst religious thought of the sixteenth century can be likened to the worst scientific thought of the twentieth century hardly redounds to the credit of science."<ref>http://solutions.synearth.net/2006/10/20</ref>}}<br /> <br /> As noted earlier, evolutionary ideas significantly influenced the thinking of the nineteenth and twentieth-century [[Communism|Communists]].<ref>http://creation.com/content/view/1804/</ref><ref>http://creation.com/charles-darwins-impactthe-bloodstained-legacy-of-evolution</ref> Karl Marx wrote in a letter the following, ""Darwin's book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the [[class struggle]] in history." Darwin's ideas also influenced the thinking of [[Friedrich Engels|Engels]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], and [[Joseph Stalin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref><br /> <br /> === WWII, Benito Mussolini, atheism, Darwinism and violence ===<br /> <br /> Italy was on the [[Axis powers]] in WWII and an ally of [[Nazi Germany]]. <br /> [[File:Mussolini.gif|thumbnail|left|200px|[[Benito Mussolini]] ]]<br /> [[Benito Mussolini]] (1883-1945) was the [[Fascist]] dictator of [[Italy]].<br /> A life-long [[socialist]] intellectual<ref>''[[Liberal Fascism]]'', [[Jonah Goldberg]], Page 31</ref> and self-proclaimed "socialist heretic", he was nominated prime minister by Vittorio Emanuele III di Savoia, King of Italy, in the time of [[World War II]]. He was head of one of the strong forms of government seen in Europe in this time. He created the political structure Fasci Italiani di Combatimento, which is what later would be known as [[Fascism]], a term which was later used to describe the merging of government and corporation. He was responsible for several war crimes in [[Ethiopia]] and [[Yugoslavia]].<br /> <br /> In his work entitled Mussolini Denis Mack Smith wrote:<br /> {{cquote|From his father he [Mussolini] had learnt to be a thoroughgoing anti-clerical. He proclaimed himself to be an [[Atheism|atheist]] and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead. He forcibly denounced those socialists who thought religion a matter for individual conscience or had their children baptised. [In Mussolini's opinion] Science had proved that God did not exist and the Jesus of history was an ignorant Jew whose family thought him mad, and who was a pigmy compared to the Buddha. Religion, he said, was a disease of the psyche, an epidemic to be cured by psychiatrists, and Christianity in particular was vitiated by preaching the senseless virtues of resignation and cowardice, whereas the new socialist morality should celebrate violence and rebellion."<ref>"Mussolini", by Denis Mack Smith, Vintage Books, 1983, page 8.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. David N. Menton wrote about the effect Darwinism had upon Mussolini:<br /> {{cquote|Benito Mussolini, who brought fascism to Italy, was also greatly influenced by Darwinism, which he thought supported his belief that violence is essential for beneficial social transformation. Mussolini repeatedly used Darwinian catchwords in his speeches and ridiculed efforts at peace because they interfered with natural evolutionary process.<ref>[http://www.gennet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:the-religion-of-nature-social-darwinism&catid=8:mac-speakers The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism] by David N. Menton, Ph.D.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Irreligion/religion and love/peace ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> <br /> From a [[Metaphysics|metaphysical]], moral and spiritual perspective, atheists have an inability to satisfactorily explain the existence of [[love]].<ref>[http://www.strangenotions.com/atheists-love/ How do atheists define love?] by Dr. Taylor Marshall</ref><ref>[https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/what-is-love-how-materialist-atheism-fails-to-have-a-satisfactory-answer/ What is love? how materialist atheism fails to have a satisfactory answer], July 9, 2014</ref> See also: [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> [[File:Fra Angelico Lamentacion por la muerte de Cristo.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> ]]<br /> [[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> For example, the [[New Testament]] teaches that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25). See also: [[Agape]]<br /> <br /> In his article ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love'', Monk Themistocles (Adamopoulo) wrote:<br /> {{cquote|It is generally agreed by scholars and saints that the teaching of "love" and charity represent one of the essential dimensions of the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. Accordingly, from the extant words and parables of Jesus many concern themselves with the message of love. For example on the Sunday of Meat Fare, from the Gospel of Matthew, we hear Jesus identifying Himself and in solidarity with the destitute, the suffering, the rejected and the oppressed, calling for and rewarding altruistic philanthropy:<br /> <br /> "... I was hungry and you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in, when naked you clothed me, when I was ill you came to my help, when in prison you visited me ... I tell you this anything you did for one of my brothers here, however humble, you did it for me." (Matt 25:35-36, 40)...<br /> <br /> Christians undertook a great deal of almsgiving to the poor not only to fellow believers but to pagans as well. So amazed was the anti-Christian pagan emperor Julian the Apostate (361-363 AD), with the sheer benevolence and excellence of Christian philanthropy that he was forced to admit in wonder their superiority over paganism in matters of charity:<br /> <br /> "These godless Galileans (ie. Christians) feed not only their own poor but ours: our poor lack our care" (Ep. Sozom. 5:16).<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians]]<br /> <br /> === Economic instability, war, economic development, charity and religion/irreligion ===<br /> <br /> [[File:Calcutta beggar.jpg|thumbnail|right|280px|Beggar in [[Calcutta]], India.<br /> <br /><br /><br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists. See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]] ]]<br /> Economic instability is a causal factor for war.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122240/ BMJ. Feb 9, 2002; 324(7333): 0. Inequality and poverty cause war]</ref> <br /> <br /> The Christian relief organization World Vision Australia notes that out of the 150 or more major conflicts since World War II, 130 of these were in poor countries.<ref>[http://www.worldvision.com.au/libraries/3_1_1_issues_-_war/war_and_poverty.pdf War and Poverty by World Vision Australia]</ref> And economic instability was one of the causal factors of WWII.<ref>[http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII_Great_Depression.htm The Great Depression and and WWII]</ref> <br /> <br /> In terms of economic development, biblical Christianity has historically had a positive affect on countries.<ref><br /> *[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012<br /> *[http://creation.com/christianity-as-progress ''Christianity as progress: A review of The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark<br /> Random House, New York, 2005''] by Lael Weinberger<br /> *[http://creation.com/the-biblical-origins-of-science-review-of-stark-for-the-glory-of-god The biblical origins of science: A review of For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark] by Alex Williams</ref> [[Harvard University]] historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history." (See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism|Protestant work ethic and capitalism]]).<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref><br /> <br /> See also:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and communism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Soviet atheism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Secular left]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and politics]]<br /> <br /> ==== Charity: Religiousness vs. irreligiousness ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]<br /> <br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists (See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]).<br /> <br /> Dr. [[William Lane Craig]] points out that the social science research indicates that atheists who have family/social contacts with religious people give more to charity than atheists who do not have such an influence.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imuaiRO5mSQ&feature=sub Christians Give more to Charity than Atheists] ([[YouTube]] video featuring an audio clip of Dr. [[William Lane Craig]])</ref><br /> <br /> === Atheist arrogance/anger/quarrelsomeness ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheist bullying]] and [[Atheist movement]] and [[Internet atheism]]<br /> <br /> The [[Saint Paul|Apostle Paul]] taught that arrogance and easily provoked anger are antithetical to love (1 Corinthians 13: 4-5). The atheist population has a significant problem with pride, anger and quarrelsomeness (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]] and [[Atheism and anger]] and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]).<br /> <br /> [[File:G. Christina.jpg|thumbnail|left|275px|Picture of [[Greta Christina]] in 2010.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <small>(photo from [https://www.flickr.com/photos/danielgipps/4988339630/in/photolist-2rDM3o-bt3Ftm-bFXxr4-5nz1zL-7fobnw-7fobys-7fjigk-7fjiwX-7fobh5-5T99Aj-5T4L6K-5T98K1-5T96wf-5T4NZF-7e8Beb-7c7bCe-7e8zi9-7caZdy-8ANxzG-7e8xjS-8AKsPT-68xpDc-68xpDt-6rdw8-bHrFL6-bHrFKZ-fznm8w-eUwdEY-bqezJr-e3JzYN-fQtemN-axf5DW-dQotEq-7agx5n-okT16-MvRwB-8ANxss-8ANxSw-8UMG16-9LdtG8-bnvf16-adV2DK-bG97z6-bG97fc-bG96TK-btehjh-82T2J-oAdNG-2VKxNd-2uHoFH Flickr], see: [https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ license agreement])</small>]]<br /> <br /> The atheist and [[lesbianism|lesbian]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement."<ref>Mooney, Chris (May 14, 2012). [http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ "Greta Christina—Why are you atheists so angry?"] [interview of Greta Christina] Point of Inquiry website. Retrieved on October 6, 2014.</ref><br /> <br /> [[Blair Scott]] served on the [[American Atheists]] board of directors. Mr. Scott formerly served as a State Director for the [[American Atheists]] organization in the state of [[Alabama]]. On December 1, 2012 he quit his post as a director of outreach for the American Atheist due to infighting within the American [[atheist movement]].<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref> <br /> <br /> Mr. Blair wrote:<br /> {{cquote|I have spent the last week mulling over what I want to do at this point in the movement. I’m tired of the in-fighting: at every level. I am especially tired of allowing myself to get sucked into it and engaging in the very behavior that is irritating..me.<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The atheist Brendan O'Neill wrote in ''The Telegraph'' in an article entitled ''How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'': "These days, barely a week passes without the emergence of yet more evidence that atheists are the most irritating people on Earth."<ref>[http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100230985/how-atheists-became-the-most-colossally-smug-and-annoying-people-on-the-planet/ Brendan O'Neill, ''The Telegraph, How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'', August 14th, 2013]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information please see: <br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence|Atheism and emotional intelligence]]<br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and immaturity]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and violence]]<br /> *[[Atheists and conflict resolution]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[http://www.bethinking.org/is-religion-harmful/religion-causes-wars "Religion causes wars"] by Tom Price<br /> *[http://carm.org/religion-cause-war The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War] by Robin Schumacher at [[CARM]]<br /> <br /> ==Notes and references==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: War]]<br /> [[Category: History]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Irreligion/religion_and_war&diff=1686022 Irreligion/religion and war 2020-09-13T09:18:49Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* In Foreign Policy atheist Scott Atran indicates religion is not a major causal factor for wars */</p> <hr /> <div>[[File:NorthKorea location.png|thumbnail|right|200px|Countries with high levels of [[atheism]], such as [[North Korea]], have not necessarily been the most peaceful countries.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>]]<br /> Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK, wrote in her article entitled ''Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer For?'':<br /> {{Cquote|But academic studies consistently challenge the link between [[religion]] and [[war]]. [http://www.visionofhumanity.org/#/page/news/1085 Research published in October from the New York and Sydney-based Institute for Economics and Peace] looked at all of the wars that took place in 2013. It found no 'general causal relationship' between religion and conflict.<br /> <br /> In fact, religious elements played no role at all in 14 (40%) of the 35 armed conflicts in the research, and only five (14%) had religious elements as their main cause, the report showed. All of the wars had multiple causes, and the much more common motivation was opposition to a government, or to the economic, ideological, political or social systems of a state, which was named as a main factor in nearly two thirds of the cases studied.<br /> <br /> The ''Encyclopedia of Wars'', an extensive study published in 2008, chronicles 1,763 wars throughout human history. It names just 123 as 'religious in nature' – a little under 7%.<br /> <br /> The [http://economicsandpeace.org/ Institute for Economics and Peace] report also found that having less religion in a country doesn’t make it more peaceful. The proportion of atheists in a country had no bearing on levels of peace.<br /> <br /> Countries with the highest levels of [[atheism]] – mainly [[communism|communist]] or former communist states like [[Russia]] and the [[Czech Republic]] – were not necessarily the most peaceful. [[North Korea]], which has one of the lowest rates of people practising religion, was one of ten 'least peaceful' countries in world last year, according to the report.<ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/14/religions-war-cause-responsible-evidence_n_6156878.html Does Religion Really Cause War - And Do Atheists Have Something To Answer for?] by Louise Ridley, assistant news editor at the Huffington Post UK</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In his book ''The Irrational Atheist'', [[Vox Day]] wrote:<br /> {{Cquote|It’s also interesting to note that more than half of these religious wars, sixty-six in all, were waged by [[Islam]]ic nations, which is rather more than might be statistically expected considering that the first war in which Islam was involved took place almost three millennia after the first war chronicled in the Encyclopedia, Akkad’s conquest of Sumer in 2325 B . C .<br /> <br /> In light of this evidence, the fact that a specific religion is currently sparking a great deal of<br /> conflict around the globe cannot reasonably be used to indict all religious faith, especially when one<br /> considers that removing that single religion from the equation means that all of the other religious<br /> faiths combined only account for 3.35 percent of humanity’s wars.<ref>[http://www.voxday.net/mart/TIA_free.pdf The Irrational Atheist - Abbreviated free copy on PDF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == In Foreign Policy atheist Scott Atran indicates religion is not a major causal factor for wars ==<br /> [[File:Vox Day.jpg|thumbnail|right|175px|[[Vox Day]] ]] <br /> Vox Day wrote in his article entitled ''Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument'':<br /> <br /> :"Scott Atran is the first atheist to publicly come out and [http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/god_and_the_ivory_tower?page=0,2 admit the historical nonexistence] of the oft-claimed connection between religion and war in ''Foreign Policy'':<br /> <br /> ::Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.<br /> <br /> :Not only does Atran accept the argument I originally presented in a WND article before refining it in The Irrational Atheist, but his article is actually much less of a Fighting Withdrawal than the misleading subtitle - What we don't understand about religion just might kill us - would lead the casual reader to believe."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/08/atheists-abandon-religion-causes-war.html Atheists abandon "religion causes war" argument]</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism and mass murder ==<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|right|200px|thumb|The brutal [[atheism|atheist]] [[Joseph Stalin]] was greatly influenced by the work of [[Charles Darwin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref>]]<br /> See also: [[Atheism and mass murder]] and [[militant atheism]]<br /> <br /> It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic [[communism]] have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives.<ref><br /> *[http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/finalconflict/fcrevb102.html The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm The Black Book of Communism]<br /> *[http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM]<br /> *[http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm]<br /> *[http://www.sarasotamagazine.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=365 Memory and Ideology]*[http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2526 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression]</ref> Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.<ref>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM</ref><br /> <br /> [[Vox Day]] notes concerning atheism and mass murder:<br /> {{cquote|Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao … <br /> <br /> The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.<br /> <br /> The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.<br /> <br /> Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!<ref>http://creation.com/atheism</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and the issue of world peace ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and world peace]]<br /> <br /> == World War I, World War II and Darwinism ==<br /> <br /> Historically, the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution|theory of evolution]] which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists or [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref name="Batten and Sarfati">Multiple references:<br /> * Batten, Dr. Don (December 1997). [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists "A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists"]. Creation Ministries International. Originally published in ''Creation'' 20(1):32. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> * Sarfati, Jonathan, Ph.D., F.M. (1999). [http://creation.com/refuting-evolution-chapter-1-evolution-creation-science-religion-facts-bias "Chapter 1: Facts and bias", ''Refuting Evolution'']. Retrieved July 17, 2014.<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The founder of [[Darwinism]], [[Charles Darwin]], was an [[agnosticism|agnostic]]/[[weak atheism|weak atheist]] (see: [[Religious views of Charles Darwin]]).<br /> <br /> === Charles Darwin's ideas on the white race exterminating other races which he claimed were inferior ===<br /> [[File:CharlesDarwin.jpg|right|thumb|175px|[[Charles Darwin|Charles Darwin]] ]] <br /> ''See also:'' [[Evolutionary racism]] and [[Social Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Charles Darwin wrote in his work ''[[The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex]]'':<br /> {{cquote|At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.<ref>http://www.aim.org/wls/90/</ref><ref name="DoM6">[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/dscmn10.txt The Descent of Man], chapter VI</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === WWI and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> <br /> Historian Jacques Barzun observed how [[Evolution|Darwinism]] caused the horrendous brutality of the wars leading up to [[World War I]]: "Since in every European country between 1870 and 1914 there was a war party demanding armaments, an individualist party demanding ruthless competition, an imperialist party demanding a free hand over backward peoples, a socialist party demanding the conquest of power and a racialist party demanding internal purges against aliens — all of them, when appeals to greed and glory failed, invoked [[Herbert Spencer|Spencer]] and [[Charles Darwin|Darwin]], which was to say science incarnate."<ref>[http://www.creators.com/conservative/pat-buchanan/making-a-monkey-out-of-darwin.html Making a monkey out of Darwinism]</ref><br /> <br /> According to Annika Mombauer, senior lecturer in history at the Open University in London and the author of numerous books and articles on World War I:<br /> {{cquote|Many of the decision makers and, in fact, many ordinary [[Europe]]ans did feel that war would eventually come. You have to think of another "-ism" -- [[social Darwinism]], this belief that nations and peoples are subject to the same biological laws as animals and that they are going to either rise to the top or they are going to be eliminated in a vying for power."<ref>[http://www.rferl.org/content/wwi-key-questions-war-anniversary-historians/25472768.html World War I Anniversary: Five Historians, Two Questions, Radio Free Europe]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-world-war-one Darwinism and World War One] and [http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi race Holocaust] and [[Social effects of the theory of evolution|Social effects of evolutionary ideology]]<br /> <br /> === WWII, Nazism and Darwinism ===<br /> <br /> ==== Charles Darwin, Nazi ideology development and eugenics ====<br /> <br /> In a [[Creation Ministries International]] article entitled ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'', [[Bill Muehlenberg]] writes:<br /> {{cquote|‘Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new “scientific” justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as “inferior”. … Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’<ref>[http://creation.com/darwin-and-eugenics ''Darwin and eugenics:<br /> Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’'' by Bill Muehlenberg]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In addition, Dennis Sewell declared cornering the Darwin family:<br /> {{cquote|[In the] years leading up to the First World War, the eugenics movement looked like a Darwin family business. … Darwin’s son Leonard replaced his cousin Galton as chairman of the national Eugenics Society in 1911. In the same year an offshoot of the society was formed in Cambridge. Among its leading members were three more of Charles Darwin’s sons, Horace, Francis and George.” <ref>[http://creation.com/eugenics-a-darwin-family-business Eugenics: “a Darwin family business”]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Evolution and Nazism: Some key historical figures ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[World War I and Darwinism]]<br /> [[Image:Hitlerspeech.jpg|thumb|300px|left|[[Adolf Hitler]]]]<br /> <br /> The March 9, 1907 edition of the [[NY Times]] refers to [[Ernst Haeckel]] as the "celebrated Darwinian and founder of the Association for the Propagation of Ethical Atheism."<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C03EFDD123EE033A2575AC0A9659C946697D6CF</ref><br /> <br /> The staunch evolutionist and agnostic [[Stephen Gould]] admitted: <br /> {{cquote|Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in [[Germany]].... His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science - all contributed to the rise of Nazism. - Stephen J. Gould, "Ontogeny and Phylogeny," Belknap Press: Cambridge MA, 1977, pp.77-78).<ref>http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/social.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler]] wrote the following [[Evolutionary racism|evolutionary racist]] material in his work ''[[Mein Kampf]]'':<br /> {{cquote|If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.<ref>http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/09/15/a-church-apology-to-darwin/</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] also wrote in ''Mein Kampf'':<br /> {{cquote|The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable.<ref>http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=268</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. Robert E.D. Clark also wrote:<br /> {{cquote|“Adolf Hitler’s mind was captivated by evolutionary teaching — probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas — quite undisguised — lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf — and in his public speeches.”<ref>http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_holocaust_why_did_it_happen</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Joseph_mengel.jpg|thumb|300px|[[Josef Mengele]] ]] <br /> Dr. [[Josef Mengele]]'s evolutionary thinking was in accordance with [[Social Darwinism|social Darwinist]] theories that [[Adolph Hitler]] and a number of [[German]] academics found appealing.<ref>[http://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust]</ref><ref>[http://creation.com/herero-genocide Herero Genecide]</ref> Dr. Joseph Mengele studied under the leading proponents the "unworthy life" branch of evolutionary thought.<ref>[http://creation.com/refutation-of-new-scientists-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions-nazi-darwin-link The Darwin–Hitler connection]</ref> Dr. Mengele was one of the most notorious individuals associated with [[Nazi]] death camps and the [[Holocaust]].<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> Mengele obtained a infamous reputation due to his experiments on twins while at [[Auschwitz]]-Birkenau.<ref>http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/joseph_mengele.htm</ref> <br /> <br /> B. Wilder-Smith wrote the following regarding [[Nazism]] and the theory of evolution: <br /> {{cquote|One of the central planks in Nazi theory and doctrine was …evolutionary theory [and] … that all biology had evolved … upward, and that … less evolved types … should be actively eradicated [and] … that natural selection could and should be actively aided, and therefore [the Nazis] instituted political measures to eradicate … [[Jew]]s, and … blacks, whom they considered as “underdeveloped”.’<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i2/nazi.asp</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Pulitzer Prize]] winning author Marilynne Robinson wrote the following regarding Hitler's racism in the November 2006 issue of Harper’s Magazine: <br /> {{cquote|While it is true that persecution of the Jews has a very long history in Europe, it is also true that science in the twentieth century revived and absolutized persecution by giving it a fresh rationale — Jewishness was not religious or cultural, but genetic. Therefore no appeal could be made against the brute fact of a Jewish grandparent...<br /> <br /> There is indeed [[history|historical]] precedent in the [[Spanish Inquisition]] for the notion of hereditary Judaism. But the fact that the worst religious thought of the sixteenth century can be likened to the worst scientific thought of the twentieth century hardly redounds to the credit of science."<ref>http://solutions.synearth.net/2006/10/20</ref>}}<br /> <br /> As noted earlier, evolutionary ideas significantly influenced the thinking of the nineteenth and twentieth-century [[Communism|Communists]].<ref>http://creation.com/content/view/1804/</ref><ref>http://creation.com/charles-darwins-impactthe-bloodstained-legacy-of-evolution</ref> Karl Marx wrote in a letter the following, ""Darwin's book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the [[class struggle]] in history." Darwin's ideas also influenced the thinking of [[Friedrich Engels|Engels]], [[Vladimir Lenin]], and [[Joseph Stalin]].<ref>http://creation.com/the-darwinian-foundation-of-communism</ref><br /> <br /> === WWII, Benito Mussolini, atheism, Darwinism and violence ===<br /> <br /> Italy was on the [[Axis powers]] in WWII and an ally of [[Nazi Germany]]. <br /> [[File:Mussolini.gif|thumbnail|left|200px|[[Benito Mussolini]] ]]<br /> [[Benito Mussolini]] (1883-1945) was the [[Fascist]] dictator of [[Italy]].<br /> A life-long [[socialist]] intellectual<ref>''[[Liberal Fascism]]'', [[Jonah Goldberg]], Page 31</ref> and self-proclaimed "socialist heretic", he was nominated prime minister by Vittorio Emanuele III di Savoia, King of Italy, in the time of [[World War II]]. He was head of one of the strong forms of government seen in Europe in this time. He created the political structure Fasci Italiani di Combatimento, which is what later would be known as [[Fascism]], a term which was later used to describe the merging of government and corporation. He was responsible for several war crimes in [[Ethiopia]] and [[Yugoslavia]].<br /> <br /> In his work entitled Mussolini Denis Mack Smith wrote:<br /> {{cquote|From his father he [Mussolini] had learnt to be a thoroughgoing anti-clerical. He proclaimed himself to be an [[Atheism|atheist]] and several times tried to shock an audience by calling on God to strike him dead. He forcibly denounced those socialists who thought religion a matter for individual conscience or had their children baptised. [In Mussolini's opinion] Science had proved that God did not exist and the Jesus of history was an ignorant Jew whose family thought him mad, and who was a pigmy compared to the Buddha. Religion, he said, was a disease of the psyche, an epidemic to be cured by psychiatrists, and Christianity in particular was vitiated by preaching the senseless virtues of resignation and cowardice, whereas the new socialist morality should celebrate violence and rebellion."<ref>"Mussolini", by Denis Mack Smith, Vintage Books, 1983, page 8.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. David N. Menton wrote about the effect Darwinism had upon Mussolini:<br /> {{cquote|Benito Mussolini, who brought fascism to Italy, was also greatly influenced by Darwinism, which he thought supported his belief that violence is essential for beneficial social transformation. Mussolini repeatedly used Darwinian catchwords in his speeches and ridiculed efforts at peace because they interfered with natural evolutionary process.<ref>[http://www.gennet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:the-religion-of-nature-social-darwinism&catid=8:mac-speakers The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism] by David N. Menton, Ph.D.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Irreligion/religion and love/peace ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> <br /> From a [[Metaphysics|metaphysical]], moral and spiritual perspective, atheists have an inability to satisfactorily explain the existence of [[love]].<ref>[http://www.strangenotions.com/atheists-love/ How do atheists define love?] by Dr. Taylor Marshall</ref><ref>[https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/what-is-love-how-materialist-atheism-fails-to-have-a-satisfactory-answer/ What is love? how materialist atheism fails to have a satisfactory answer], July 9, 2014</ref> See also: [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and love]]<br /> [[File:Fra Angelico Lamentacion por la muerte de Cristo.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> ]]<br /> [[Jesus Christ]] and his apostles taught a gospel of love.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref> For example, the [[New Testament]] teaches that a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25). See also: [[Agape]]<br /> <br /> In his article ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love'', Monk Themistocles (Adamopoulo) wrote:<br /> {{cquote|It is generally agreed by scholars and saints that the teaching of "love" and charity represent one of the essential dimensions of the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. Accordingly, from the extant words and parables of Jesus many concern themselves with the message of love. For example on the Sunday of Meat Fare, from the Gospel of Matthew, we hear Jesus identifying Himself and in solidarity with the destitute, the suffering, the rejected and the oppressed, calling for and rewarding altruistic philanthropy:<br /> <br /> "... I was hungry and you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in, when naked you clothed me, when I was ill you came to my help, when in prison you visited me ... I tell you this anything you did for one of my brothers here, however humble, you did it for me." (Matt 25:35-36, 40)...<br /> <br /> Christians undertook a great deal of almsgiving to the poor not only to fellow believers but to pagans as well. So amazed was the anti-Christian pagan emperor Julian the Apostate (361-363 AD), with the sheer benevolence and excellence of Christian philanthropy that he was forced to admit in wonder their superiority over paganism in matters of charity:<br /> <br /> "These godless Galileans (ie. Christians) feed not only their own poor but ours: our poor lack our care" (Ep. Sozom. 5:16).<ref>[http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/themistocles_triumph_love.htm ''The Triumph of the Gospel of Love''] by Monk Themistocles ((Adamopoulo)</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Christian worldview concerning resolving conflict among Christians]]<br /> <br /> === Economic instability, war, economic development, charity and religion/irreligion ===<br /> <br /> [[File:Calcutta beggar.jpg|thumbnail|right|280px|Beggar in [[Calcutta]], India.<br /> <br /><br /><br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists. See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]] ]]<br /> Economic instability is a causal factor for war.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122240/ BMJ. Feb 9, 2002; 324(7333): 0. Inequality and poverty cause war]</ref> <br /> <br /> The Christian relief organization World Vision Australia notes that out of the 150 or more major conflicts since World War II, 130 of these were in poor countries.<ref>[http://www.worldvision.com.au/libraries/3_1_1_issues_-_war/war_and_poverty.pdf War and Poverty by World Vision Australia]</ref> And economic instability was one of the causal factors of WWII.<ref>[http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII_Great_Depression.htm The Great Depression and and WWII]</ref> <br /> <br /> In terms of economic development, biblical Christianity has historically had a positive affect on countries.<ref><br /> *[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012<br /> *[http://creation.com/christianity-as-progress ''Christianity as progress: A review of The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark<br /> Random House, New York, 2005''] by Lael Weinberger<br /> *[http://creation.com/the-biblical-origins-of-science-review-of-stark-for-the-glory-of-god The biblical origins of science: A review of For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark] by Alex Williams</ref> [[Harvard University]] historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history." (See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism|Protestant work ethic and capitalism]]).<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref><br /> <br /> See also:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and communism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Soviet atheism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Secular left]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and politics]]<br /> <br /> ==== Charity: Religiousness vs. irreligiousness ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]<br /> <br /> [[Per capita]] [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnosticism|agnostics]] in America give significantly less to charity than [[theism|theists]] even when church giving is not counted for theists (See: [[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]).<br /> <br /> Dr. [[William Lane Craig]] points out that the social science research indicates that atheists who have family/social contacts with religious people give more to charity than atheists who do not have such an influence.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imuaiRO5mSQ&feature=sub Christians Give more to Charity than Atheists] ([[YouTube]] video featuring an audio clip of Dr. [[William Lane Craig]])</ref><br /> <br /> === Atheist arrogance/anger/quarrelsomeness ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheist bullying]] and [[Atheist movement]] and [[Internet atheism]]<br /> <br /> The [[Saint Paul|Apostle Paul]] taught that arrogance and easily provoked anger are antithetical to love (1 Corinthians 13: 4-5). The atheist population has a significant problem with pride, anger and quarrelsomeness (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]] and [[Atheism and anger]] and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]).<br /> <br /> [[File:G. Christina.jpg|thumbnail|left|275px|Picture of [[Greta Christina]] in 2010.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <small>(photo from [https://www.flickr.com/photos/danielgipps/4988339630/in/photolist-2rDM3o-bt3Ftm-bFXxr4-5nz1zL-7fobnw-7fobys-7fjigk-7fjiwX-7fobh5-5T99Aj-5T4L6K-5T98K1-5T96wf-5T4NZF-7e8Beb-7c7bCe-7e8zi9-7caZdy-8ANxzG-7e8xjS-8AKsPT-68xpDc-68xpDt-6rdw8-bHrFL6-bHrFKZ-fznm8w-eUwdEY-bqezJr-e3JzYN-fQtemN-axf5DW-dQotEq-7agx5n-okT16-MvRwB-8ANxss-8ANxSw-8UMG16-9LdtG8-bnvf16-adV2DK-bG97z6-bG97fc-bG96TK-btehjh-82T2J-oAdNG-2VKxNd-2uHoFH Flickr], see: [https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/ license agreement])</small>]]<br /> <br /> The atheist and [[lesbianism|lesbian]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement."<ref>Mooney, Chris (May 14, 2012). [http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ "Greta Christina—Why are you atheists so angry?"] [interview of Greta Christina] Point of Inquiry website. Retrieved on October 6, 2014.</ref><br /> <br /> [[Blair Scott]] served on the [[American Atheists]] board of directors. Mr. Scott formerly served as a State Director for the [[American Atheists]] organization in the state of [[Alabama]]. On December 1, 2012 he quit his post as a director of outreach for the American Atheist due to infighting within the American [[atheist movement]].<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref> <br /> <br /> Mr. Blair wrote:<br /> {{cquote|I have spent the last week mulling over what I want to do at this point in the movement. I’m tired of the in-fighting: at every level. I am especially tired of allowing myself to get sucked into it and engaging in the very behavior that is irritating..me.<ref>Former 2012 web page at Atheist.org website entitled "An Open Letter from Blair Scott"</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The atheist Brendan O'Neill wrote in ''The Telegraph'' in an article entitled ''How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'': "These days, barely a week passes without the emergence of yet more evidence that atheists are the most irritating people on Earth."<ref>[http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100230985/how-atheists-became-the-most-colossally-smug-and-annoying-people-on-the-planet/ Brendan O'Neill, ''The Telegraph, How atheists became the most colossally smug and annoying people on the planet'', August 14th, 2013]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information please see: <br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence|Atheism and emotional intelligence]]<br /> <br /> * [[Atheism and immaturity]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and violence]]<br /> *[[Atheists and conflict resolution]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[http://www.bethinking.org/is-religion-harmful/religion-causes-wars "Religion causes wars"] by Tom Price<br /> *[http://carm.org/religion-cause-war The Myth that Religion is the #1 Cause of War] by Robin Schumacher at [[CARM]]<br /> <br /> ==Notes and references==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: War]]<br /> [[Category: History]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheists_and_genetic_mutations&diff=1686006 Atheists and genetic mutations 2020-09-13T06:07:56Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Cancer, genetic mutations and various atheist populations */</p> <hr /> <div>[[File:DNA UV mutation.svg.png|right|thumb|200px|[[Mutation]]s result from errors during the [[DNA]] replication process or other types of damage to DNA (such as may be caused by exposure to radiation or carcinogens).]]<br /> ''Newsweek'' declared about '''atheists and genetic mutations''' and a scientific study relating to [[Atheism|atheists]]:<br /> {{Cquote|Left-[[handedness]] is a good marker of a high [[mutation]]al load. They found higher levels of left-handedness in atheists than in followers of most major religions.<br /> <br /> Explaining the behavior behind these results, Dutton says: “Religiousness makes you more pro-social, and you become more religious when you're stressed. Religious people would have been sexually selected for because their pro-social, moral, unstressed nature would be attractive.”...<br /> <br /> Since the industrial revolution, the hold of [[natural selection]] on humanity has weakened. “We developed better and better medical care, easier access to healthy food and better living conditions. Child mortality collapsed down to a tiny level and more and more people with more and more mutant genes have survived into adulthood and had children,” Dutton says.<ref>[http://www.newsweek.com/religion-healthy-atheism-mutant-genes-756984 RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIVE HEALTHIER, LONGER LIVES—WHILE ATHEISTS COLLECT MUTANT GENES], Newsweek, 2017</ref>}}<br /> <br /> There is a link between a person's genetics and [[autism]].<ref>[https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/more-autism-genes-identified-64957 More Autism Genes Identified], TheScientist website</ref><br /> <br /> ''The Telegraph'' states about atheists and genetic mutations:<br /> {{Cquote|Left-handed people are more likely to be atheists, a study has found, as it says belief is passed on genetically. <br /> <br /> The study suggests that religious people have fewer genetic mutations and are therefore less likely to be left handed or [[Atheism and autism|have conditions such as autism]] or schizophrenia. <br /> <br /> British academic Edward Dutton, a professor at Oulu University, Finland, said that in pre-industrial times religiosity was passed on like other genetic attributes because it was associated with greater stability, mental health and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|better social behaviour]]. <br /> <br /> But modern science means many people who would not previously have survived are making it to adulthood.<ref>[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/21/atheists-likely-left-handed-study-finds/ Atheists are more likely to be left handed, study finds], ''The Telegraph'', 2017</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2011, the University of Boston published a study on the correlation between [[atheism]] and high-functioning/mild autism.<ref>[http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/proceedings/2011/papers/0782/paper0782.pdf Religious Belief Systems of Persons with High Functioning Autism], Catherine Caldwell-Harris, Caitlin Fox Murphy and Tessa Velazquez at the Department of Psychology - Boston University); Patrick McNamara (Department of Neurology, Boston University School of Medicine) </ref><ref>[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039690/Atheism-autism-Controversial-new-study-points-link-two.html Is atheism linked to autism? Controversial study points to relationship between the two], ''Daily Mail'', 20 September 2011</ref> See also: [[Atheism and autism]]<br /> <br /> On September 19, 2011, the ''Discover Magazine'' website had an article indicating that there were empirical results showing a positive correlation between atheism and high functioning [[autism]] and the article declared: "This is why the empirical results on the [http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/atheism-as-mental-deviance/ correlation between atheism and high functioning autism] are important...<br /> <br /> ...some people were angry that I seemed to suggest that atheists were antisocial weirdos. Well, [http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/08/religiosity-and-personality-how-are.php there is some data to back that up].<ref>[http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/what-atheism-and-autism-may-have-in-common/ What atheism and autism may have in common] By Razib Khan, September 19, 2011]</ref><br /> <br /> The abstract for the 2017 journal article ''The Mutant Says in His Heart, “There Is No [[God]]”: the Rejection of Collective Religiosity Centred Around the Worship of Moral Gods Is Associated with High Mutational Load'' which was published in the journal ''[[Evolution]]ary [[Psychology|Psychological]] Science'' indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Industrialisation leads to relaxed selection and thus the accumulation of fitness-damaging genetic mutations. We argue that religion is a selected trait that would be highly sensitive to mutational load. We further argue that a specific form of religiousness was selected for in complex societies up until industrialisation based around the collective worship of moral gods. With the relaxation of selection, we predict the degeneration of this form of religion and diverse deviations from it. These deviations, however, would correlate with the same indicators because they would all be underpinned by mutational load. We test this hypothesis using two very different deviations: atheism and paranormal belief. We examine associations between these deviations and four indicators of mutational load: (1) poor general health, (2) autism, (3) fluctuating asymmetry, and (4) left-handedness. A systematic literature review combined with primary research on handedness demonstrates that atheism and/or paranormal belief is associated with all of these indicators of high mutational load.<ref>''[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-017-0133-5 The Mutant Says in His Heart, “There Is No God”: the Rejection of Collective Religiosity Centred Around the Worship of Moral Gods Is Associated with High Mutational Load]'', ''Evolutionary Psychological Science'' by Edward Dutton, Guy Madison and Curtis Dunkel, pp 1–12</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Mouse.jpg|thumb|left|200px|[[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]] wrote: "This would also put [https://mouseutopia.blogspot.co.uk/ Bruce Charlton's Mouse Utopia observations] into context, as atheism appears to be one aspect of the [[nihilism|nihilistic]] despair that is a consequence of the increased prevalence of genetic inferiority that results from easier circumstances."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/12/genetically-inferior.html Genetically Inferior by [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]]</ref>]]<br /> Suraj Radhakrishnan wrote in ''International Business Times'' article ''Atheism Causes Genetic Mutation? Study Finds [[Atheism and health|Religious People To Be Healthier]]'':<br /> {{Cquote|...a study has linked a lack of belief in god to an increase in genetic mutations in the general population. The study found that [[Atheism and life expectancy|religious people tend to live healthier, longer lives than atheists]].<br /> <br /> The authors of the study say that as societies have progressed, the number of atheists has grown. During pre-industrialization times, societies were highly religious. The community ritual of worship helped individuals develop strong social bonds and to choose reproductive partners that would pass on strong genes to the next generation.<br /> <br /> But, slowly as societies drifted, we became less religious, and with the rise of atheism came increased levels of mutations among humans, the researchers say.<br /> <br /> The study was published in the [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-017-0133-5 Evolutionary Psychological Science] on Dec. 20.<br /> <br /> “Maybe the positive relationship between religiousness and health is not causal—it's not that being religious makes you less stressed so less ill. Rather, religious people are a genetically normal remnant population from preindustrial times, and the rest of us are mutants who'd have died as children back then,” lead author Edward Dutton from the Ulster Institute for Social Research told Newsweek.<ref>[https://www.ibtimes.com/atheism-causes-genetic-mutation-study-finds-religious-people-be-healthier-2632628 Atheism Causes Genetic Mutation? Study Finds Religious People To Be Healthier] by Suraj Radhakrishnan, ''International Business Times'</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]] wrote: <br /> {{Cquote|This would also put [https://mouseutopia.blogspot.co.uk/ Bruce Charlton's Mouse Utopia observations] into context, as atheism appears to be one aspect of the [[nihilism|nihilistic]] despair that is a consequence of the increased prevalence of genetic inferiority that results from easier circumstances.<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/12/genetically-inferior.html Genetically Inferior by [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Defending atheist mutational load theory: Dr. Edward Dutton and Guy Madison ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-the-authors-reply Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory: Part 1] by Dr. Edward Dutton and Professor Guy Madison<br /> *[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory - Part 2] by Dr. Edward Dutton and Professor Guy Madison<br /> <br /> == Atheism, left-handedness, socialization pointing to a largely non-genetic explanation of atheism ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and social outcasts]] and [[Homosexuality and genetic mutations]]<br /> <br /> Dr. Neil Whitehead writes about left-handedness and [[homosexuality]]:<br /> {{Cquote|..everyone knows that left-handed people feel in a minority, and different. Very many homosexual people attest to feeling different and not belonging when they were growing up.. Left-handedness could increase feelings of difference and be one important factor in the complex leading to homosexuality. This could apply to both men and women and the authors quote a study in which non-right-handed women rated themselves as less feminine.<ref>[http://www.mygenes.co.nz/lefthand.html Is left-handedness linked to homosexuality?] by Dr. Neil Whitehead</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Some people are more likely to be atheist if they are less likely to identify with the religious identity of their family/community (see: [[Atheism and social outcasts]] and [[Atheism and poor relationships with parents]]),<br /> <br /> == Atheists, psychopathy and genetic mutations ==<br /> [[Image:115523-004-FA619CA3.jpg|thumb|right|221px| The perverse and cruel atheist [[Marquis de Sade]] in prison, 18th century line engraving. See: [[Atheism and sadism]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and psychopathy]] and [[Antitheism and antisocial behavior]]<br /> <br /> A [[psychopath]] is someone with an anti-social [[personality disorder]] characterized by [[violent]], [[perverted]] or immoral behavior often leading to [[criminal]]ity. Psychopaths have little or no concern for other people. Some psychopaths equate [[love]] with sexual arousal.<ref>{{cite book |title=Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us |author=Robert D. Hare |publisher=Guilford Press |place=New York and London |year=2011 |pages=52 |isbn=978-16062-35782 |url=https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1606235788}}</ref><br /> <br /> There are a few studies showing a positive correlation between psychopahy and irreligion (see: [[Atheism and psychopathy]]).<ref>[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989 Why Do You Believe in God? Relationships between Religious Belief, Analytic Thinking, Mentalizing and Moral Concern] by Anthony Ian Jack , Jared Parker Friedman, Richard Eleftherios Boyatzis, Scott Nolan Taylor, ''Plus One'', March 23, 2016</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4106400/ Correlates of psychopathic personality traits in everyday life: results from a large community survey] by Scott O. Lilienfeld, Robert D. Latzman, Ashley L. Watts, Sarah F. Smith, and Kevin Dutton, ''Frontiers of Psychology'', 2014</ref> <br /> <br /> There are [[medical science|medical scientists]] and [[social science|social scientists]] who theorize that psychopathy is a medical condition caused by genetic defects (caused by accumulated mutations within a given population).<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933872/ The Psycho Gene] by Philip Hunter, EMBO Rep. 2010 Sep; 11(9): 667–669.</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242349/ Psychopathic personality traits: heritability and genetic overlap with internalizing and externalizing psychopathology] by DANIEL M. BLONIGEN,* BRIAN M. HICKS, ROBERT F. KRUEGER, CHRISTOPHER J. PATRICK, and WILLIAM G. IACONO, Psychol Med. 2005 May; 35(5): 637–648.</ref><ref>[http://aglenn.people.ua.edu/uploads/1/4/1/8/14182546/glenn_avb_2011.pdf Glenn, A.L., Kurzban, R., & Raine, A. (2011). Evolutionary Theory and Psychopathy. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16, 371-380]</ref><br /> <br /> [[Antitheism]] is active opposition to [[theism|theistic]] belief. <br /> <br /> Social science research indicates that antitheists score the highest among [[Atheism|atheists]] when it comes to personality traits such as [[narcissism]], dogmatism, and anger.<ref>[https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/science-shows-new-atheists-to-be-mean-and-closed-minded/ Science Shows New Atheists to be Mean and Closed-Minded]</ref><ref>[http://www.thisviewoflife.com/index.php/magazine/articles/why-sam-harris-is-unlikely-to-change-his-mind10 Why Sam Harris is Unlikely to Change his Mind] by JONATHAN HAIDT, February 3, 2014 8:36 pm</ref> Furthermore, they scored lowest when it comes to agreeableness and positive relations with others.<ref>[https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/science-shows-new-atheists-to-be-mean-and-closed-minded/ Science Shows New Atheists to be Mean and Closed-Minded]</ref><br /> <br /> Psychopathy is strongly correlated with crime, violence, and antisocial behavior.<ref name=Patrick2005a>{{cite book |editor1-last=Patrick |editor1-first=Christopher J |year=2005 |title=Handbook of Psychopathy |publisher=Guilford Press |pages=440–3}}</ref><ref name="englandandwales2009">{{cite journal|last1=Coid|first1=Jeremy|last2=Yang|first2=Min|last3=Ullrich|first3=Simone|last4=Roberts|first4=Amanda|last5=Moran|first5=Paul|last6=Bebbington|first6=Paul|last7=Brugha|first7=Traolach|last8=Jenkins|first8=Rachel|last9=Farrell|first9=Michael|last10=Lewis|first10=Glyn|last11=Singleton|first11=Nicola|last12=Hare|first12=Robert|title=Psychopathy among prisoners in England and Wales|journal=International Journal of Law and Psychiatry|date=May 2009|volume=32|issue=3|pages=134–41|doi=10.1016/j.ijlp.2009.02.008|pmid=19345418|url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24256789_Psychopathy_among_prisoners_in_England_and_Wales|accessdate=1 April 2016|publisher=Elsevier Ltd}}</ref> See also: [[Irreligion, psychopathy, crime, violence and antisocial behavior]]<br /> <br /> == Cancer, genetic mutations and various atheist populations ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> <br /> [[Mutation]]s result from errors during the [[DNA]] replication process or other types of damage to DNA (such as may be caused by exposure to carcinogens or radiation).<br /> [[File:Europe map.png|thumbnail|250px|right|The [[World Health Organization]] declares concerning [[secular Europe]]: "[[Europe]] comprises only one eighth of the total world population but has around one quarter of the global total of [[cancer]] cases with some 3.7 million new patients per year."<ref>[http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/cancer/data-and-statistics World Health Organization - Cancer statistics for Europe]</ref>]]<br /> According to the National Cancer Institute:<br /> {{Cquote|Cancer is a genetic disease—that is, cancer is caused by certain changes to genes that control the way our cells function, especially how they grow and divide....<br /> <br /> Inherited genetic mutations play a major role in about 5 to 10 percent of all cancers. Researchers have associated mutations in specific genes with more than 50 hereditary cancer syndromes, which are disorders that may predispose individuals to developing certain cancers.<ref>[https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/genetics The Genetics of Cancer],<br /> National Cancer Institute</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Irreligious countries such as European countries and China, have significant problems with cancer (see: [[Atheism and cancer]]). The [[World Health Organization]] declares concerning [[secular Europe]]: "[[Europe]] comprises only one eighth of the total world population but has around one quarter of the global total of [[cancer]] cases with some 3.7 million new patients per year."<ref>[http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/cancer/data-and-statistics World Health Organization - Cancer statistics for Europe]</ref><br /> <br /> [[Denmark]], [[France]] and [[Australia]] have significantly higher rates of individuals holding to an [[Atheist worldview|atheistic worldview]] (see also: [[Irreligion in Denmark]] and [[French atheism]] and [[Irreligion in Australia]]). According to the World Cancer Research Fund International, Denmark, France and Australia have the three highest [[per capita]] cancer rates in the world.<ref>[http://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-frequency-country Data for cancer frequency by country], World Cancer Research Fund International</ref><br /> <br /> There are various studies which link atheists/irreligious to various unhealthy behaviors associated with cancer development (see: [[Atheism and cancer]]).<br /> <br /> == Atheism, depression and genetics ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and depression]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that religious people are genetically disposed to suffer less depression.<ref>[Why are Conservative Girls So Attractive and Liberal Girls So Ugly?] by Edward Dutton</ref> Atheists are more likely to suffer depression (see: [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and suicide]]).<br /> <br /> == Consistent handedness and religiosity/irreligiosity ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Consistent handedness and religiosity/irreligiosity]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, evolutionary theory and genetic entropy ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Genetic entropy]]<br /> <br /> [[File:John C Sanford.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[John C. Sanford|John Sanford]] ]]<br /> Since [[World War II]] a majority of the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution]]ary position which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists and [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref><br /> * Dr. Don Batten, [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists] ''Creation'' 20(1):32, December 1997.<br /> * [[Jonathan Sarfati]], Ph.D.,F.M., [http://www.creation.com/content/view/3830 ''Refuting Evolution'', Chapter 1, Facts and Bias]<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The [[genetic entropy]] theory by Cornell University Professor Dr. [[John C. Sanford|John Sanford]] on eroding [[genome]]s of all living organisms due to [[mutations]] inherited from one generation to the next is declared to be one of the major challenges to [[Evolution|evolutionary theory]]. The central part of Sanford’s argument is that mutations, represented by spelling mistakes in [[DNA]], are accumulating so quickly in some creatures (and particularly in people) that [[natural selection]] cannot stop the ''functional degradation'' of the genome, let alone drive an evolutionary process that could lead for example, from apes into people.<ref>{{cite web<br /> |title=Genetic entropy and simple organisms: If genetic entropy is true, why do bacteria still exist?<br /> |author=Robert Carter<br /> |publisher=Creation Ministries International <br /> |url=http://creation.com/genetic-entropy-and-simple-organisms<br /> |accessdate=2012-10-29}}</ref><br /> <br /> Sanford's book ''Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome'' explains why human DNA is inexorably deteriorating at an alarming rate, thus cannot be millions of years old.<ref>[http://creation.com/john-sanford John Sanford - bio] at [[Creation Ministries International]]</ref><br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Causes of atheism]]<br /> *[[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> *[[Atheism and marriageability]]<br /> *[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and genetic mutations]]<br /> *[[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> *[[American "low church atheists" and Alzheimer's disease]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.inquisitr.com/4699745/atheism-linked-to-mutant-genes-says-new-study/ Atheism Linked To Mutant Genes, Says New Study], ''Inquisitr''<br /> *[https://www.newsweek.com/religion-healthy-atheism-mutant-genes-756984 Religious People Live Healthier, Longer Lives—While Atheists Collect Mutant Genes], ''Newsweek''<br /> *[https://www.christiantoday.com/article/atheism-is-down-to-a-genetic-mutation-claims-academic-studyexecute1/122084.htmAtheism is down to a genetic mutation, claims academic study], ''Christianity Today''<br /> *[http://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending/261217/left-handed-people-more-likely-to-be-atheists-study.html Left-handed people more likely to be atheists: Study], ''Deccan Chronicle''<br /> <br /> Video:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLZVsTf99gc The Mutant Says in His Heart: "There is No God."] by Edward Dutton<br /> <br /> == Notes ==<br /> {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}<br /> {{Nb Atheism}}<br /> [[Category: Atheism]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheists_and_genetic_mutations&diff=1686005 Atheists and genetic mutations 2020-09-13T06:07:15Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheists, psychopathy and genetic mutations */</p> <hr /> <div>[[File:DNA UV mutation.svg.png|right|thumb|200px|[[Mutation]]s result from errors during the [[DNA]] replication process or other types of damage to DNA (such as may be caused by exposure to radiation or carcinogens).]]<br /> ''Newsweek'' declared about '''atheists and genetic mutations''' and a scientific study relating to [[Atheism|atheists]]:<br /> {{Cquote|Left-[[handedness]] is a good marker of a high [[mutation]]al load. They found higher levels of left-handedness in atheists than in followers of most major religions.<br /> <br /> Explaining the behavior behind these results, Dutton says: “Religiousness makes you more pro-social, and you become more religious when you're stressed. Religious people would have been sexually selected for because their pro-social, moral, unstressed nature would be attractive.”...<br /> <br /> Since the industrial revolution, the hold of [[natural selection]] on humanity has weakened. “We developed better and better medical care, easier access to healthy food and better living conditions. Child mortality collapsed down to a tiny level and more and more people with more and more mutant genes have survived into adulthood and had children,” Dutton says.<ref>[http://www.newsweek.com/religion-healthy-atheism-mutant-genes-756984 RELIGIOUS PEOPLE LIVE HEALTHIER, LONGER LIVES—WHILE ATHEISTS COLLECT MUTANT GENES], Newsweek, 2017</ref>}}<br /> <br /> There is a link between a person's genetics and [[autism]].<ref>[https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/more-autism-genes-identified-64957 More Autism Genes Identified], TheScientist website</ref><br /> <br /> ''The Telegraph'' states about atheists and genetic mutations:<br /> {{Cquote|Left-handed people are more likely to be atheists, a study has found, as it says belief is passed on genetically. <br /> <br /> The study suggests that religious people have fewer genetic mutations and are therefore less likely to be left handed or [[Atheism and autism|have conditions such as autism]] or schizophrenia. <br /> <br /> British academic Edward Dutton, a professor at Oulu University, Finland, said that in pre-industrial times religiosity was passed on like other genetic attributes because it was associated with greater stability, mental health and [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|better social behaviour]]. <br /> <br /> But modern science means many people who would not previously have survived are making it to adulthood.<ref>[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/21/atheists-likely-left-handed-study-finds/ Atheists are more likely to be left handed, study finds], ''The Telegraph'', 2017</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2011, the University of Boston published a study on the correlation between [[atheism]] and high-functioning/mild autism.<ref>[http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/proceedings/2011/papers/0782/paper0782.pdf Religious Belief Systems of Persons with High Functioning Autism], Catherine Caldwell-Harris, Caitlin Fox Murphy and Tessa Velazquez at the Department of Psychology - Boston University); Patrick McNamara (Department of Neurology, Boston University School of Medicine) </ref><ref>[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039690/Atheism-autism-Controversial-new-study-points-link-two.html Is atheism linked to autism? Controversial study points to relationship between the two], ''Daily Mail'', 20 September 2011</ref> See also: [[Atheism and autism]]<br /> <br /> On September 19, 2011, the ''Discover Magazine'' website had an article indicating that there were empirical results showing a positive correlation between atheism and high functioning [[autism]] and the article declared: "This is why the empirical results on the [http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/atheism-as-mental-deviance/ correlation between atheism and high functioning autism] are important...<br /> <br /> ...some people were angry that I seemed to suggest that atheists were antisocial weirdos. Well, [http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/08/religiosity-and-personality-how-are.php there is some data to back that up].<ref>[http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/what-atheism-and-autism-may-have-in-common/ What atheism and autism may have in common] By Razib Khan, September 19, 2011]</ref><br /> <br /> The abstract for the 2017 journal article ''The Mutant Says in His Heart, “There Is No [[God]]”: the Rejection of Collective Religiosity Centred Around the Worship of Moral Gods Is Associated with High Mutational Load'' which was published in the journal ''[[Evolution]]ary [[Psychology|Psychological]] Science'' indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Industrialisation leads to relaxed selection and thus the accumulation of fitness-damaging genetic mutations. We argue that religion is a selected trait that would be highly sensitive to mutational load. We further argue that a specific form of religiousness was selected for in complex societies up until industrialisation based around the collective worship of moral gods. With the relaxation of selection, we predict the degeneration of this form of religion and diverse deviations from it. These deviations, however, would correlate with the same indicators because they would all be underpinned by mutational load. We test this hypothesis using two very different deviations: atheism and paranormal belief. We examine associations between these deviations and four indicators of mutational load: (1) poor general health, (2) autism, (3) fluctuating asymmetry, and (4) left-handedness. A systematic literature review combined with primary research on handedness demonstrates that atheism and/or paranormal belief is associated with all of these indicators of high mutational load.<ref>''[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-017-0133-5 The Mutant Says in His Heart, “There Is No God”: the Rejection of Collective Religiosity Centred Around the Worship of Moral Gods Is Associated with High Mutational Load]'', ''Evolutionary Psychological Science'' by Edward Dutton, Guy Madison and Curtis Dunkel, pp 1–12</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Mouse.jpg|thumb|left|200px|[[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]] wrote: "This would also put [https://mouseutopia.blogspot.co.uk/ Bruce Charlton's Mouse Utopia observations] into context, as atheism appears to be one aspect of the [[nihilism|nihilistic]] despair that is a consequence of the increased prevalence of genetic inferiority that results from easier circumstances."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/12/genetically-inferior.html Genetically Inferior by [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]]</ref>]]<br /> Suraj Radhakrishnan wrote in ''International Business Times'' article ''Atheism Causes Genetic Mutation? Study Finds [[Atheism and health|Religious People To Be Healthier]]'':<br /> {{Cquote|...a study has linked a lack of belief in god to an increase in genetic mutations in the general population. The study found that [[Atheism and life expectancy|religious people tend to live healthier, longer lives than atheists]].<br /> <br /> The authors of the study say that as societies have progressed, the number of atheists has grown. During pre-industrialization times, societies were highly religious. The community ritual of worship helped individuals develop strong social bonds and to choose reproductive partners that would pass on strong genes to the next generation.<br /> <br /> But, slowly as societies drifted, we became less religious, and with the rise of atheism came increased levels of mutations among humans, the researchers say.<br /> <br /> The study was published in the [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-017-0133-5 Evolutionary Psychological Science] on Dec. 20.<br /> <br /> “Maybe the positive relationship between religiousness and health is not causal—it's not that being religious makes you less stressed so less ill. Rather, religious people are a genetically normal remnant population from preindustrial times, and the rest of us are mutants who'd have died as children back then,” lead author Edward Dutton from the Ulster Institute for Social Research told Newsweek.<ref>[https://www.ibtimes.com/atheism-causes-genetic-mutation-study-finds-religious-people-be-healthier-2632628 Atheism Causes Genetic Mutation? Study Finds Religious People To Be Healthier] by Suraj Radhakrishnan, ''International Business Times'</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]] wrote: <br /> {{Cquote|This would also put [https://mouseutopia.blogspot.co.uk/ Bruce Charlton's Mouse Utopia observations] into context, as atheism appears to be one aspect of the [[nihilism|nihilistic]] despair that is a consequence of the increased prevalence of genetic inferiority that results from easier circumstances.<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/12/genetically-inferior.html Genetically Inferior by [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Defending atheist mutational load theory: Dr. Edward Dutton and Guy Madison ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-the-authors-reply Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory: Part 1] by Dr. Edward Dutton and Professor Guy Madison<br /> *[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory - Part 2] by Dr. Edward Dutton and Professor Guy Madison<br /> <br /> == Atheism, left-handedness, socialization pointing to a largely non-genetic explanation of atheism ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and social outcasts]] and [[Homosexuality and genetic mutations]]<br /> <br /> Dr. Neil Whitehead writes about left-handedness and [[homosexuality]]:<br /> {{Cquote|..everyone knows that left-handed people feel in a minority, and different. Very many homosexual people attest to feeling different and not belonging when they were growing up.. Left-handedness could increase feelings of difference and be one important factor in the complex leading to homosexuality. This could apply to both men and women and the authors quote a study in which non-right-handed women rated themselves as less feminine.<ref>[http://www.mygenes.co.nz/lefthand.html Is left-handedness linked to homosexuality?] by Dr. Neil Whitehead</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Some people are more likely to be atheist if they are less likely to identify with the religious identity of their family/community (see: [[Atheism and social outcasts]] and [[Atheism and poor relationships with parents]]),<br /> <br /> == Atheists, psychopathy and genetic mutations ==<br /> [[Image:115523-004-FA619CA3.jpg|thumb|right|221px| The perverse and cruel atheist [[Marquis de Sade]] in prison, 18th century line engraving. See: [[Atheism and sadism]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and psychopathy]] and [[Antitheism and antisocial behavior]]<br /> <br /> A [[psychopath]] is someone with an anti-social [[personality disorder]] characterized by [[violent]], [[perverted]] or immoral behavior often leading to [[criminal]]ity. Psychopaths have little or no concern for other people. Some psychopaths equate [[love]] with sexual arousal.<ref>{{cite book |title=Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us |author=Robert D. Hare |publisher=Guilford Press |place=New York and London |year=2011 |pages=52 |isbn=978-16062-35782 |url=https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1606235788}}</ref><br /> <br /> There are a few studies showing a positive correlation between psychopahy and irreligion (see: [[Atheism and psychopathy]]).<ref>[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989 Why Do You Believe in God? Relationships between Religious Belief, Analytic Thinking, Mentalizing and Moral Concern] by Anthony Ian Jack , Jared Parker Friedman, Richard Eleftherios Boyatzis, Scott Nolan Taylor, ''Plus One'', March 23, 2016</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4106400/ Correlates of psychopathic personality traits in everyday life: results from a large community survey] by Scott O. Lilienfeld, Robert D. Latzman, Ashley L. Watts, Sarah F. Smith, and Kevin Dutton, ''Frontiers of Psychology'', 2014</ref> <br /> <br /> There are [[medical science|medical scientists]] and [[social science|social scientists]] who theorize that psychopathy is a medical condition caused by genetic defects (caused by accumulated mutations within a given population).<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933872/ The Psycho Gene] by Philip Hunter, EMBO Rep. 2010 Sep; 11(9): 667–669.</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242349/ Psychopathic personality traits: heritability and genetic overlap with internalizing and externalizing psychopathology] by DANIEL M. BLONIGEN,* BRIAN M. HICKS, ROBERT F. KRUEGER, CHRISTOPHER J. PATRICK, and WILLIAM G. IACONO, Psychol Med. 2005 May; 35(5): 637–648.</ref><ref>[http://aglenn.people.ua.edu/uploads/1/4/1/8/14182546/glenn_avb_2011.pdf Glenn, A.L., Kurzban, R., & Raine, A. (2011). Evolutionary Theory and Psychopathy. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 16, 371-380]</ref><br /> <br /> [[Antitheism]] is active opposition to [[theism|theistic]] belief. <br /> <br /> Social science research indicates that antitheists score the highest among [[Atheism|atheists]] when it comes to personality traits such as [[narcissism]], dogmatism, and anger.<ref>[https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/science-shows-new-atheists-to-be-mean-and-closed-minded/ Science Shows New Atheists to be Mean and Closed-Minded]</ref><ref>[http://www.thisviewoflife.com/index.php/magazine/articles/why-sam-harris-is-unlikely-to-change-his-mind10 Why Sam Harris is Unlikely to Change his Mind] by JONATHAN HAIDT, February 3, 2014 8:36 pm</ref> Furthermore, they scored lowest when it comes to agreeableness and positive relations with others.<ref>[https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/science-shows-new-atheists-to-be-mean-and-closed-minded/ Science Shows New Atheists to be Mean and Closed-Minded]</ref><br /> <br /> Psychopathy is strongly correlated with crime, violence, and antisocial behavior.<ref name=Patrick2005a>{{cite book |editor1-last=Patrick |editor1-first=Christopher J |year=2005 |title=Handbook of Psychopathy |publisher=Guilford Press |pages=440–3}}</ref><ref name="englandandwales2009">{{cite journal|last1=Coid|first1=Jeremy|last2=Yang|first2=Min|last3=Ullrich|first3=Simone|last4=Roberts|first4=Amanda|last5=Moran|first5=Paul|last6=Bebbington|first6=Paul|last7=Brugha|first7=Traolach|last8=Jenkins|first8=Rachel|last9=Farrell|first9=Michael|last10=Lewis|first10=Glyn|last11=Singleton|first11=Nicola|last12=Hare|first12=Robert|title=Psychopathy among prisoners in England and Wales|journal=International Journal of Law and Psychiatry|date=May 2009|volume=32|issue=3|pages=134–41|doi=10.1016/j.ijlp.2009.02.008|pmid=19345418|url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24256789_Psychopathy_among_prisoners_in_England_and_Wales|accessdate=1 April 2016|publisher=Elsevier Ltd}}</ref> See also: [[Irreligion, psychopathy, crime, violence and antisocial behavior]]<br /> <br /> == Cancer, genetic mutations and various atheist populations ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Europe map.png|thumbnail|250px|left|The [[World Health Organization]] declares concerning [[secular Europe]]: "[[Europe]] comprises only one eighth of the total world population but has around one quarter of the global total of [[cancer]] cases with some 3.7 million new patients per year."<ref>[http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/cancer/data-and-statistics World Health Organization - Cancer statistics for Europe]</ref>]]<br /> [[Mutation]]s result from errors during the [[DNA]] replication process or other types of damage to DNA (such as may be caused by exposure to carcinogens or radiation).<br /> <br /> According to the National Cancer Institute:<br /> {{Cquote|Cancer is a genetic disease—that is, cancer is caused by certain changes to genes that control the way our cells function, especially how they grow and divide....<br /> <br /> Inherited genetic mutations play a major role in about 5 to 10 percent of all cancers. Researchers have associated mutations in specific genes with more than 50 hereditary cancer syndromes, which are disorders that may predispose individuals to developing certain cancers.<ref>[https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/genetics The Genetics of Cancer],<br /> National Cancer Institute</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Irreligious countries such as European countries and China, have significant problems with cancer (see: [[Atheism and cancer]]). The [[World Health Organization]] declares concerning [[secular Europe]]: "[[Europe]] comprises only one eighth of the total world population but has around one quarter of the global total of [[cancer]] cases with some 3.7 million new patients per year."<ref>[http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/cancer/data-and-statistics World Health Organization - Cancer statistics for Europe]</ref><br /> <br /> [[Denmark]], [[France]] and [[Australia]] have significantly higher rates of individuals holding to an [[Atheist worldview|atheistic worldview]] (see also: [[Irreligion in Denmark]] and [[French atheism]] and [[Irreligion in Australia]]). According to the World Cancer Research Fund International, Denmark, France and Australia have the three highest [[per capita]] cancer rates in the world.<ref>[http://www.wcrf.org/int/cancer-facts-figures/data-cancer-frequency-country Data for cancer frequency by country], World Cancer Research Fund International</ref><br /> <br /> There are various studies which link atheists/irreligious to various unhealthy behaviors associated with cancer development (see: [[Atheism and cancer]]).<br /> <br /> == Atheism, depression and genetics ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and depression]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that religious people are genetically disposed to suffer less depression.<ref>[Why are Conservative Girls So Attractive and Liberal Girls So Ugly?] by Edward Dutton</ref> Atheists are more likely to suffer depression (see: [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and suicide]]).<br /> <br /> == Consistent handedness and religiosity/irreligiosity ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Consistent handedness and religiosity/irreligiosity]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, evolutionary theory and genetic entropy ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Genetic entropy]]<br /> <br /> [[File:John C Sanford.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|[[John C. Sanford|John Sanford]] ]]<br /> Since [[World War II]] a majority of the most prominent and vocal defenders of the [[evolution]]ary position which employs [[methodological naturalism]] have been atheists and [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref><br /> * Dr. Don Batten, [http://creation.com/a-whos-who-of-evolutionists A ''Who’s Who'' of evolutionists] ''Creation'' 20(1):32, December 1997.<br /> * [[Jonathan Sarfati]], Ph.D.,F.M., [http://www.creation.com/content/view/3830 ''Refuting Evolution'', Chapter 1, Facts and Bias]<br /> </ref> <br /> <br /> The [[genetic entropy]] theory by Cornell University Professor Dr. [[John C. Sanford|John Sanford]] on eroding [[genome]]s of all living organisms due to [[mutations]] inherited from one generation to the next is declared to be one of the major challenges to [[Evolution|evolutionary theory]]. The central part of Sanford’s argument is that mutations, represented by spelling mistakes in [[DNA]], are accumulating so quickly in some creatures (and particularly in people) that [[natural selection]] cannot stop the ''functional degradation'' of the genome, let alone drive an evolutionary process that could lead for example, from apes into people.<ref>{{cite web<br /> |title=Genetic entropy and simple organisms: If genetic entropy is true, why do bacteria still exist?<br /> |author=Robert Carter<br /> |publisher=Creation Ministries International <br /> |url=http://creation.com/genetic-entropy-and-simple-organisms<br /> |accessdate=2012-10-29}}</ref><br /> <br /> Sanford's book ''Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome'' explains why human DNA is inexorably deteriorating at an alarming rate, thus cannot be millions of years old.<ref>[http://creation.com/john-sanford John Sanford - bio] at [[Creation Ministries International]]</ref><br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Causes of atheism]]<br /> *[[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> *[[Atheism and marriageability]]<br /> *[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and genetic mutations]]<br /> *[[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> *[[American "low church atheists" and Alzheimer's disease]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.inquisitr.com/4699745/atheism-linked-to-mutant-genes-says-new-study/ Atheism Linked To Mutant Genes, Says New Study], ''Inquisitr''<br /> *[https://www.newsweek.com/religion-healthy-atheism-mutant-genes-756984 Religious People Live Healthier, Longer Lives—While Atheists Collect Mutant Genes], ''Newsweek''<br /> *[https://www.christiantoday.com/article/atheism-is-down-to-a-genetic-mutation-claims-academic-studyexecute1/122084.htmAtheism is down to a genetic mutation, claims academic study], ''Christianity Today''<br /> *[http://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending/261217/left-handed-people-more-likely-to-be-atheists-study.html Left-handed people more likely to be atheists: Study], ''Deccan Chronicle''<br /> <br /> Video:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLZVsTf99gc The Mutant Says in His Heart: "There is No God."] by Edward Dutton<br /> <br /> == Notes ==<br /> {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}<br /> {{Nb Atheism}}<br /> [[Category: Atheism]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678480 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T18:26:09Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>== Moved the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion ==<br /> <br /> I moved the Dataclarifier/Robs discussion to this page:<br /> <br /> *[[Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?#Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical|Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical]]<br /> <br /> Please put the content where it will benefit readers of the wiki and not on user talk pages.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:42, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Thanks for preserving the content of the dispute by moving it to the Debate Talk page. If no one blanks this User:Datclarifier Talk page by the end of this week I will blank it myself. Again, thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 11:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678358 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T15:06:52Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Moved the the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion */</p> <hr /> <div>''This page intentionally left blank.''<br /> <br /> Thank you, Wikignome. Good move against RobSmith. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:35, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> You can delete this too. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:36, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Moved the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion ==<br /> <br /> I moved the Dataclarifier/Robs discussion to this page:<br /> <br /> *[[Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?#Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical|Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical]]<br /> <br /> Please put the content where it will benefit readers of the wiki and not on user talk pages.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:42, 25 August 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678337 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:44:29Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::Who is the rock the church is built on? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ==Refs==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude><br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude></div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678336 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:44:07Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Template design */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::Who is the rock the church is built on? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude><br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude></div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678333 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:43:39Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Template design */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::Who is the rock the church is built on? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude><br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude><br /> ==Refs==<br /> {{reflist}}</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678332 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T14:43:07Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Refs */</p> <hr /> <div>''This page intentionally left blank.''<br /> <br /> Thank you, Wikignome. Good move against RobSmith. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:35, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> You can delete this too. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:36, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Moved the the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion ==<br /> <br /> I moved the the Dataclarifier/Robs discussion to this page:<br /> <br /> *[[Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?#Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical|Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical]]<br /> <br /> Please put the content where it will benefit readers of the wiki and not on user talk pages.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:42, 25 August 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678331 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T14:42:55Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Moved the the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion */</p> <hr /> <div>''This page intentionally left blank.''<br /> <br /> Thank you, Wikignome. Good move against RobSmith. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:35, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> You can delete this too. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:36, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Moved the the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion ==<br /> <br /> I moved the the Dataclarifier/Robs discussion to this page:<br /> <br /> *[[Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?#Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical|Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical]]<br /> <br /> Please put the content where it will benefit readers of the wiki and not on user talk pages.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:42, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Refs==<br /> {{reflist}}</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678330 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T14:42:36Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Moved Dataclarifier/RobS discussion to talk page of debate */</p> <hr /> <div>''This page intentionally left blank.''<br /> <br /> Thank you, Wikignome. Good move against RobSmith. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:35, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> You can delete this too. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:36, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Moved the the Dataclarifier/RobS discussion ==<br /> <br /> I moved the the Dataclarifier/Robs discussion to this page:<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?#Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical|Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical]]<br /> <br /> Please put the content where it will benefit readers of the wiki and not on user talk pages.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:42, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Refs==<br /> {{reflist}}</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678325 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T14:39:23Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>''This page intentionally left blank.''<br /> <br /> Thank you, Wikignome. Good move against RobSmith. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:35, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> You can delete this too. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:36, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Moved Dataclarifier/RobS discussion to talk page of debate ==<br /> <br /> [[Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?#Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical|Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical]]<br /> <br /> ==Refs==<br /> {{reflist}}</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678316 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:36:14Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Phony scholarship and phony authority */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude></div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678314 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:35:54Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude></div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678311 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:35:27Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Template design */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678310 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:34:35Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Template design */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude><br /> <br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=1678309 Talk:Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical? 2020-08-25T14:34:14Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Template design */</p> <hr /> <div><s>Ooops, I screwed up, I need to reverse the "yes" and "no" positions.</s> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:52, 8 August 2020 (EDT) Never mind.<br /> <br /> ==Format==<br /> The "Yes" and "No" sections are for Introductory narrative laying out the basics of the position, and not for interaction and exchange of debate points. <br /> <br /> The Yes section currently lacks a brief Introductory outline of the idea. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> The "Yes" section still lacks a brief Introductory outline. This should be completed before spamming the page with "God gave all authority to men". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Re-ordering of subheads and Sysop actions===<br /> I reordered two subheadings from the antagonist viewpoint and moved them to the protagonist Summary section. The protagonist Section Summary, which was unedited, was lost in transition. So as a Sysop/Moderator, I placed Dataclarifier's '''Summary''' in that section. <br /> <br /> In this Debate format, while interaction and exchange of ideas/arguments across the Pro/Con divide is encouraged, creating new subheadings for the sake of argument/discussion '''''outside''''' the divide an editor has identified with, can be viewed as disruptive of an orderly debate format. So while editors are welcomed and encouraged to interact across the divide, lengthy spam postings should be confined under the User's own subheading or within their respective Pro/Con Section Summary.<br /> <br /> Thank you for you co-operation. I'll be happy to entertain any questions or suggestions for improvement about formatting. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section===<br /> I removed the excess spamming in the Introductory section that was irrelevant to Grace. Spamming is not a legitimate substitute for reasoned argument in a Debate format. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:59, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposed rules in future debates==<br /> *Off topic subjects, without providing an explanation of its relevancy to the Debate question, can be removed by a Sysop/Moderator.<br /> <br /> *Spamming, defined for purposes of this Debate, means providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate, or providing scriptures in full with no relevant context or explanation of the relevant context to the Debate question. Such designated spam postings may be removed by a Debate Sysop/Moderator. Editors may freely inquire of any Debate Sysop/Moderator, along with a brief explanation of cause, for removing such spam postings.<br /> <br /> *No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.<br /> <br /> Comments or proposed changes of wording welcome. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:36, 22 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for another Debate==<br /> *[[Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?]]<br /> <br /> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:57, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Phony scholarship and phony authority==<br /> Dataclarifier's argument seems to be that the Roman Church has "authority". Dataclarifier habitually posts excessive spam references to bible verses with no context to the discussion. These debates, and particularly a Debate on grace, are designed to examine this alleged "authority". Under the biblical doctrine of grace, God uses his legal authority to free the sinner from the legal consequences of sin. This is not too big a concept to wrap one's head around. Readers simply want to know what the Roman Catholic position is on grace. <br /> <br /> Excessive spam postings citing dozens if not hundreds of bible verses, repetitively, while some may think look "authoritive", are not helpful. We simply want to understand what the meaning of Romans 6:14 is:<br /> *''ye are not under law, but under grace'' <br /> A cosmetic appeal to look "authoritive" while adding no narrative context or substance to the discussion, is not articulating the position of the Roman Catholic church on grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Bottomline, and this comment should rightly go into the Debate mainspace, if Christian believers are not under law as the Bible says, but rather under grace, the Roman Catholic church then has no legal authority. <br /> <br /> :The Roman Catholic church's claims to "authority" can only be enforced by law. The Christian believer is not under law. Hence the Catholic catechism's convoluted claims that ultimately deny scripture and arrive at the conclusion that ''grace is not grace''. This is the basis by which the Roman Catholic church can claim to have authority. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:06, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :The Catholic catechism's doctrine of "merited grace" not only corroborates this view, it highlights the disobedience or lack of faith within the Roman church's hierarchy and tradition that rejects the grace of God (as Israel in the wilderness did) in favor of law, which can only condemn and not offer salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ===Strike 2===<br /> [[User:Dataclarifier]] just added an additional 57,166 [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&action=history] bytes of spam after being asked not to, twice. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Template design==<br /> Is it possible to design a Template similar to this which could be used on debate and discussion pages to warn a user against disrupting the flow of a discussion or debate with off-topic spam postings before removing spam postings? Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:08, 23 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <div style="width: 70%; margin: 0 15% 1em 15%; text-align: center; background-color: #E55451; padding: 0.5em; border: solid 1px #000000;">''This posting is considered off-topic '''spam''' by some editors, and should be removed as such.<br /> </div><br /> <br /> <br /> <includeonly><br /> [[:Category:Templates]]<br /> </noinclude><br /> ==Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical==<br /> You are not debating. You are just spamming. Please stop. Please remove your spam. If you wish to cite scripture and provide external links, it must be relevant to the Debate topic, ''Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?'' <u>in a '''narrative context'''</u>. This is not an unreasonable request and is a simple courtesy to other debaters and readers of the page. Spamming is disruptive of the Debate format. If you have any questions, please contact me here, on my User page, or on the Debate talk page. Thank you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :I provided the links demanded at the top of the Debate page to already existing citations of scripture. They are directly relevant to the claim that Catholic doctrine is biblical. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:25, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Meaningless. If you wish to cite a scripture, and provide an external link to a scripture, it must be in the context of debate. Carpet bombing the page with external links not relevant to a specific point under debate is unacceptable conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Your position in the debate is that the Catholic doctrine is '''''not''''' biblical. They are directly relevant. Visible evidence that Catholic doctrine is overwhelmingly biblical, a claim you stoutly reject in the face of such overwhelming evidence. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:33, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::Then address that specific Antagonist point in debate. Carpet bombing the page with spam is not an acceptable or meaningful response. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:36, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::In the forum of the debate this is introductory as presenting the affirmative position. "Here you are ladies and gentlemen. This is the evidence from the Bible for the position that Catholic doctrine is biblical. The debate will offer opinions for and against this scriptural material."--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::You've provided nothing from the Catechism, which overrides scripture.<br /> ::::::It's spam. You have a simple choice, remove the spam and debate in a civil manner, or let me remove the spam and enjoy a short term block. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::I provided direct links to the Catechism with the headings of the table of contents and quote boxes on the page. Links are provided for those who wish to check the material. No one is required to read it. "Eyeballing" the sheer weight of the evidence is effective enough for those who never knew so much of the Bible is used and claimed as support for Catholic doctrine. <br>'''It looks to me like you consider your position too weak to stand against such a weight of material so visible that you feel you have to get rid of the evidence.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::Good! Then make your case in text writing and provide your evidence to back up that specific point without spamming. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:52, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I already did. Every one reading the Debate page can see that in the material posted there. Of course, you can always remove all the evidence and gag me with a block. And no one else will be allowed to see it and judge for themselves which position is the stronger and more truthful and more biblical according to the word of God.. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:00, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Regrading the potential removal of evidence, I wouldn't worry about RobSmith doing that. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:15, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::Thanks for the support. '''''But watch that page!''''' <br>Peace be with you. ''Semper Fidelis!'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 21:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::The problem is that the debate page has become too long, and will be hard to watch. If the concern is over potential erasing of revisions, then watch out for [[User:Conservative|Conservative]], as he deleted this talk page for no specified reason (as far as I'm concerned). And God Bless, I hope you, your mother, and IndependentSkeptic are all well! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 21:30, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Don't be too hard on Conservative. I had intended to permanently withdraw from Conservapedia and had posted a note to that effect on all my working pages. <br> But when I read the beginning of the Debate page on whether the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical, and there was no immediate response, the operative grace of the Holy Spirit in my Christian confirmation charge under the apostolic authority of Bishop Maurice Dingman of the Des Moines Diocese to be a witness to truth compelled me to answer. So to all appearances I lied when I said I wouldn't be back. So Conservative revised the note. Simple. I had said two years ago when I announced that I would soon be withdrawing that I would still be around in some way, but not with any intention of getting involved in major projects.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::The particular Dabate page being discussed here has become bloated by the incessant objections of RobSmith demanding responses in detail, as Luther said each one must be answered not in general but in detail and one by one. It's a famous classic debating and filibustering strategy designed solely to make the opposition concede defeat not with the power of their opposing arguments ([[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]] and [[Confirmation bias]]) but by the sheer force of bludgeoning fatigue, leaving the issue unresolved in the forum of the debate stage so they can have the last word as a [[Specious reasoning|specious proof]] that they have won the field of battle, when if fact nothing of the kind has actually happened. <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I wanted to quit. But this issue of the Debate page on the Catholic doctrine of grace not being biblical was too important to ignore, especially with the ''straw man'' distortions and misrepresentations of RobSmith and others against the truth of what Catholic doctrine '''''really''''' is. So I marshalled all my expertise to respond in truth. But it was exhausting, and hard on my eyes. The last major posting I made today with links to all the biblical references as demanded took more than 38 hours of painstaking work and checking and rechecking to make sure it was right before posting it. And now here he is still threatening a [[cover up]] of the evidence by removal, and blocks to gag and frustrate immediate responses in answer to his [[straw man fallacy]] arguments as his way of "correcting unacceptable behavior and trolling with worthless and irrelevant ''garbage spam''". <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::My vision has not improved. It's like editing through a dirty smeared screen or an ipad with chocolate milk spilled over it before its wiped off that desperately needs some Windex applied, or a major restart to clear the foggy image and sharpen the picture. That made this last major edit very difficult. But I felt it was necessary and important enough to do what I could while I still can. I did have some help, but I did the major bulk of the work myself. Again, please, '''watch the Debate pages discussing issues of contention with Catholic doctrine ! '''.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::I cannot do much more. I'll have to quit. I'll continue to look in from time to time, but "no more can do" through all the shifting and swirling fogbanks in my eyes. So I'll pray and trust that you and NishantXavier and the other well-informed Catholic Conservapedians will stand ready armed in the breach with answering fire to the assaults against the Holy Faith ''Santa Fe''. <br> '''The Catholic Church is the most biblical church on the face of the earth proclaiming the Full Gospel of the Lord unto salvation through the precious blood and Sacred Heart of Jesus with the prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the side of her Son being one with him in glory ruling together with all the saints and angels as one Body of the Lord Our God willing and doing according to His good pleasure forever. Amen.'''<br> ''Pax vobiscum''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:42, 24 August 2020 (EDT) Michael Paul Heart<br /> ::::::::::::::Do you suppose IndependentSkeptic can edit if you aren't able to see well? It'd be great if I can at least frequently know how you, I.S., and your mother are doing. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:05, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::He did edit at my direction. We're both tired. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::What if I.S. can just post on my [[User:Liberaltears/mail|user mail page]] once a week (or once every two weeks) on how you guys are doing? Would that be okay for him? —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 23:43, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::Dataclarifier, I'd hate to sound repetitive and impatient, but can you please answer my question before this page may potentially get blanked? Thank you! —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 00:15, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::(ec) LOL! Dataclarifier complaining about answering in detail! <br /> ::::::::::::Look, you are welcome here. We want a pleasant editing environment for everybody. I think most people, myself included, respect your breadth of knowledge on rather obscure historical items. Myself and other editors only ask that you focus on debate and responding to specific items regarding Roman Catholic doctrine. A blanket claim of "authority" won't cut it. You're going to have reconcile every difference between Catechism and the Bible line by line, not simply toss out Matthew 16:18 when backed into a corner. I would suggest focusing more on citing specifically Catechism, cause your use of scripture definitely looks disingenuous when you (1) claim Catechism adds to or overrides scripture, and the (2) attempt to use scripture to support that claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:08, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::For those who defend the ''sola scriptura'' position, '''Romans 13:1-2''' and '''Matthew 16:17-19''' with '''1 Timothy 3:15''' should be enough. The church has the established authority that God has ordained by the word of Christ Himself. Those who left are antichrist (1 John 2:18-19). So their churches they founded are disqualified both by that fact of disobedience and departure and different doctrine, and the fact they were established after the time of the apostles and cannot be the original church Jesus founded. Therefore all that the church teaches as doctrine and dogma must be the truth. Read all the scriptures cited with links on the Debate page. The whole context of the testimony of the Bible answers every detailed objection altogether. Church doctrine (expressed in the Catechism with Bible proofs, which I cited with connecting links to their texts) has answered every objection and will continue to do so until the day of judgment when all will be revealed. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::As I've said before, when you finally make up your mind ''who'' the rock is upon which the church is built, let me know. And remember, ''God is not the author of confusion''. Likewise, remember those whose carcasses fell in wilderness for not believing (i.e. "disobedience") the gospel of grace and salvation when it was preached. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:49, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::::::::::He '''did''' specify a reason '''REPEATEDLY.''' it was '''to get rid of debates on the talk pages.''' [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Concservapedia Commmandments or Guidelines specifically prohibiting debates on user talk pages. Conservative may personally oppose it, but he alone doesn't decide the CP rules. —[[User:Liberaltears|Liberaltears]]<sup>'''''[[User:Liberaltears/mail|May Dataclarifier be well!]] | [[Special:Contributions/Liberaltears|Don't be an anti-Catholic zealot!]]'''''</sup> Tuesday, 22:39, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::I locked the page to prevent further spamming. Under debate rules, the specific topic is the only topic to be addressed. Spamming the page with off-topic links such as claiming "church authority", as is Dataclarifier's habit when he can not respond to specific discussion items, will no longer be tolerated. All references and citations must be of specific Catechism paragraphs or Bible verses with context relevant to the Debate question, and not wholesale carpet bombing alleging "church authority". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:19, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::This is extraordinary [[specious reasoning]]; Dataclarifier alleges God's Word is evolving through the [[Magisterium]], which directly contradicts the Bible. Then he attempts to carpet bomb pages with cut n pasted Bible scriptures (with no context) to support his claim. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:22, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::You demanded one-by-one responses, then locked the page to prevent any response. Classic. You lose. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:48, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br>No context? The Bible speaks for itself ''sola scriptura''. Scripture interprets scripture. Remember? '''''And''''' you rearranged the original format you yourself set up. The affirmative defending section was first, making it the beginning of the debate, and then followed by the negative adversarial opposing response. But now you have not only reversed the two sides of the presentation of the debate, you have made the opposition argument now first, so that now the affirmative position is last as the reactionary argumentive ''adversarial'' response. Then you locked it. '''Context'''. You can't succeed against the whole context of the scriptures which support the authority and doctrines of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. ''"The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:04, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::Yep. I rearranged the page, cause you were attempting to obscure, by spamming the page with nonsense, the fact that you were getting your butt handed to you in a debate. You started three days ago. The debate should have just ended there and we move on. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:16, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::So I'll make you a deal: I can very much respect the 38 hours and dedication you put into formatting those cut n pasted, non-relevant to the Debate, external links to bible verses. If you remove the irrelevant spam to the Debate question, we can revert the Protagonist to the top again. Otherwise I can pledge, in the bottom position, I won't touch it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:29, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::The strength of your argument should be able to stand ''without'' all the excess spam. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:31, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The strength of the argument for the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace '''''is''''' the Bible. All of it. The Church has known this for almost 2000 years of continuous existence and growth in both numbers and understanding of God's revelation. That's why she cites so much of it in the Catechism. The strength of "my" argument is not my argument but that of the scriptures faithfully preserved and defended by the Church. '''''The Bible is not spam.''''' It's the answer to every point you raised. And the scriptures I cited there on that page and others, and here (Romans Matthew John Paul) are completely sufficient to point to the truth of the authority of the church as the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth led forever by the Spirit of truth into all the truth. The doctrine of the Church is the truth. Read it. Believe it. Live it. You have the promise of Jesus Christ the Living Son of God Who '''cannot lie'''. In the Bible. "''All of his promises are faithful and true.''" We have the answer if we will only listen and obey him and not lean on our own private understanding and interpretation relying only on our own judgment by thinking we are wiser than the Church the Body of Christ and "all the doctors of Christendom". The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:47, 24 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::'''Romans 6:14''' - ''ye are not under the law, but under grace.''<br /> ::::::::::::::So if I'm not under law, what authority does the Roman church have? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::The authority established by God Romans 13:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:17-19.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::::::'''Conservative'''—If you don't blank this page by the end of this year, I will. You can do it now for all I care. Thanks. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:08, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::I guess grace is not grace and Roman church authority is only for the unsaved. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::::::Anyways, you should be grateful I hide you embarrassing loss, helping you obscure [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Debate:_Is_the_Roman_Catholic_doctrine_of_grace_biblical%3F&diff=prev&oldid=1677381 this edit] by reversing the protagonist and antagonist positions. It was after that edit (which you never responded to) you began spamming the page, enlarging it 32% (from 174K to 234K bytes by adding 57K bytes in less about 6 edits). I can honestly say in my 16 year wiki career I've never had to stoop to such transparently futile and embarrassing tactics to hide my foibles, which have become your trademark. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 00:38, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> In saying "It was after that edit (which you never responded to)" you cover up the fact that when I was prepared to respond (immediately after posting and checking the Bible references links from the footnotes of the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'') you locked the page. You willingly interpreted the delay due to the immediate posting of the edit as a refusal to respond. You dismissed the edit as irrelevant spam and the Catechism citing the Bible as "garbage". It isn't irrelevant and it isn't spam. The Bible is not irrelevant. The Bible is not spam. The Catechism citing proofs from the Bible that Catholic doctrine is biblical is not garbage. It is directly relevant to Protestant objections that the Catholic doctrine of grace is not biblical.<br /> <br /> In answer to your edit "One mediator, huh?" with your quote box of the relevant text from the ''Catechism'', I went to edit mode ready to answer and found the page locked. You prevented a response. <br /> <br /> You cleverly presented the isolated text from the ''Catechism'' as a blatant hypocrisy, taken entirely out of context, and shrewdly ignoring the fact that in the last 2 centuries the words "intercession" and "mediation" have become by careless usage virtually synonymous, and that that is the sense in which the ''Catechism'' says priests make mediation for the people on their behalf as ambassadors of the Lord representing them before him and urge the people also to petition God for sinners and for themselves and for the leaders of the Church before the throne of his mercy by the blood of Jesus Christ as brethren all redeemed by Christ, each seeking to fulfill their particular vocation of service to God and men as appointed by the Holy Spirit giving gifts to men for the benefit of all, not for themselves alone. <br /> <br /> (See article [[Intercession]] for a treatment of the culturally rooted confusion of ''intercession'' with ''mediation'' stemming from careless common abusive usage of language.) <br /> <br /> Not only does Paul urge Timothy to teach that he himself, as his and their example to be imitated, desires intercessions to be made by men everywhere lifting up holy hands in prayer, he also says '''both''' the Holy Spirit '''and''' Christ make intercession (Romans 8:26-27,34; 11:2; Hebrews 7:25), which means the Holy Spirit is our intercessor also, '''besides''' and in '''addition''' to Christ. <br /> <br /> According to the misleading Protestant argument from Paul that there is "'''''only''''' one mediator" meaning "'''''only''''' one intercessor", therefore the Holy Spirit '''cannot''' make intercessions for us—because the Protestant interpretive [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] reading of 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and there is one '''intercessor''' between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I was taught that same interpretation when I was a Baptist during my tweens and teens years. That interpretation of "only one intercessor between God and men" contradicts 1 Timothy 2:1-4. (That was not their only error, as I found out when I got deeper into reading the Bible.)<br /> <br /> I post here not only the link to which I would have directed as a really outstanding answer by Tim Staples, but the whole text of https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/one-mediator-between-god-and-men {{quotation|<br /> <br /> ARTICLE<br /> One Mediator Between God and Men<br /> TIM STAPLES • 3/24/2013<br /> <br /> A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”<br /> <br /> THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:<br /> Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:<br /> <br /> … the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.<br /> <br /> This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.<br /> <br /> Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:<br /> <br /> <br /> Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.<br /> <br /> The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men…” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:<br /> <br /> But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.<br /> <br /> Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!<br /> <br /> Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”<br /> <br /> And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.<br /> <br /> THE BODY BEAUTIFUL<br /> Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:<br /> <br /> In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.<br /> <br /> The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).<br /> <br /> God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.<br /> <br /> It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of “the head.” For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”<br /> <br /> So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ’s unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:<br /> <br /> For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.<br /> <br /> And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.<br /> <br /> Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.}} Excellent answer to deceptive Protestant [[sophistry]] against Catholic biblical doctrines. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:03, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::This has got to be a joke. Father Hardon? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:51, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :Ok, Smarty-pants. Then reconcile right here, right now, '''without spamming''', in front of these witnesses these two conflicting doctrines, one from the Bible, and one from the Catechism:<br /> {{quotebox|'''1 Timothy 2:5''' - ''there is one God and '''one mediator between God and mankind,''' the man Christ Jesus''}}<br /> {{quotebox|'''CCC 1456''' - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness '''for remission ''through the <u>mediation of the priest</u>'''''" [my bolden and emphasis added].:<ref>https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm</ref>}}<br /> :And an appeal to authority won't work cause believers are not under law. <br /> :[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:39, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Paul's references to "the law" according to the whole context of his writings refer always to "the law of Moses". You falsely equate "law" with "authority". God establishes authority and commands obedience to it. [[Antinomianism]] utterly rejects authority and is condemned by the Bible as "disorderly conduct". See Romans 13:1-19 and 1 Peter 2:13-17. As for Paul's statement "''Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law''" (Romans 13:19), he is referring to the law of Moses—'''doing no wrong to a neighbor includes doing no wrong to those in authority by disrespect, contempt, or defiance.''' That includes the State in defiance of the Church's teaching on morals and doctrine by disrespect for the dignity of every human being from conception throughout life to the grave.<br /> <br /> ::Loving correction is one thing; blatant defiance is quite another, especially when one's own conscience and personal individual understanding is made the supreme infallible authority that no one else in any position of authority has a right to question or correct. See Jude 8 and 11 and 19, Numbers chapter 16, and the article [[Individualism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:02, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :::A Christian believer is not bound to any spiritual law the Roman church pretends to have. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:21, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::::It's no pretense. I have shown from the Bible itself the authority given to the one church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> :See, this is where you fall down. This is where you prove the Catholic gospel is not a gospel of grace - by threatening to send members to hell for not confessing to a priest. ''By grace are ye saved, through faith;'' ''not of works:'' ''if by works, grace is not grace''; ''ye are not under law, but under grace''. Your threats of sending people to hell for violating Roman church tenets are empty, spurious, deceptive, and do not have authority of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:56, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :And the issue is not now, nor over the past 500 years, Protestantism vs. Roman Catholicism; the issue for the past 1500 years has been the Bishop of Rome vs. the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:01, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::'''Obey''' your leaders who spoke the word of the Lord. Hebrews 13:7 and 17, and 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-2, and Matthew 18:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:07, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br>This is where you fall down, in your utter disregard for every passage of the Bible that commands obedience to established authority. Like the Pharisees "who go about to establish their own righteousness" in opposition to the ordinance of God. That was the "discovery" of the Protestant Reformation, together with private interpretation of the scriptures against the word of Peter that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation and his warning that unstable and ignorant people are the ones who distort the scriptures, to their own destruction. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> :''Render unto Caeser'' is essentially what those verses mean. ''He bares not the sword in vain'', i.e. the cops carry a gun for a reason. This is strictly life in the flesh and has little or nothing to do with salvation. You seem to forget ''My kingdom is not of this world.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:17, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> ::And you utterly disregard Christ's word about those who refuse to listen to the church, and his command to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 10:22, 25 August 2020 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let's go a step further: Jesus says we are sexless in the afterlife (''they neither marry nor are given in marriage''); the Roman church, with a cute little piece of deception, declares Mary a "Mediatrix". What a farce! And they've had 2,000 years to add this kind of nonsense and garbage to ''render the word of God to no effect''. Why? So they can continue in their pride and not humble themselves before God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 10:26, 25 August 2020 (EDT)</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Dataclarifier&diff=1678307 User talk:Dataclarifier 2020-08-25T14:32:52Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical */</p> <hr /> <div>''This page intentionally left blank.''<br /> <br /> ==Refs==<br /> {{reflist}}</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Conservative/Spanish_and_Latin_Music&diff=1677825 User:Conservative/Spanish and Latin Music 2020-08-23T23:53:18Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:Stained-Glass.jpg|thumbnail|500px|right]]<br /> <br /> == General ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x61YvjwJCM&list=PLc2eSR_oncVjKLeGwR0uktBB47oyUB2Zn&index=1 Bombolea, tango, etc]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x61YvjwJCM&list=PLjpvHLCAbEEKABnCYZDBp3XnREHctUrH1 BAMBOLEO - playlist]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74-4dN5Iag&list=PLMf27lVj9Spb2fyTS1q7t7OH-N4Y1s7RR Noches en Andalucía]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3tB82dGhSA&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqUN2g7wpBcQPutfN_ZSlpMG Carlos Varela - Una Palabra]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3tB82dGhSA&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqVIi7_tOXp4tXizT7WqX5Gf Spanish Mix]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/embed/PKx1GevmYLo?start=10 Olé! Olé! Olé!]<br /> <br /> == Flamenco and tangos ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLkFiED1iEM&list=PLc2eSR_oncVjKLeGwR0uktBB47oyUB2Zn Flamenco dancing/music and other Latino music] <br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b52lk7Vklg&list=PL3C9AJX5guQ2muJxSgQWUnA-bnd1NbaHO Street Flamenco]<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JpD5skqGOo&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqUqriL2ql8z2VkV1NZVfTIY Spanish rythmic]<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fmZtcGuKeg&list=PLc2eSR_oncVjEWdx-hb4T88L-VvcO4aCy Rumba guitar/dance]<br /> <br /> Flamenco music and dancing:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvd-MALA7tw&list=PLZ6OF2dW7sXhBaRBWVuZaYwV-YMrAhT9a Carmen Amaya]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLDSN-4iIms&list=PLZ6OF2dW7sXj7YnvjLbNCC_qIV2IJ2dSd Eva Yerbabuena]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng0n_-_UV0&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqUJTEh3I3sSlnaDit9VJWPW&index=2 Flamenco music and dancing - music]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfQAgZ7G49A&list=PL5CF84FBA535555EC Flamenco music with dancing - playlist 2]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHqePOPJDY4&list=PL2BEAB0133DD1A929 Flamenco music - playlist 3]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egRNsOYPBAY&list=PLc2eSR_oncVh1YJKnLAlGddKgxIEBCyPk Tangos]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egRNsOYPBAY&list=RD8GQ-tJUhMvs Flamenco and tangos]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2_oQosScps Tango suite performed by Wang YaMeng & Su Meng]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scus9teTdjo&list=PLc2eSR_oncVi8Qz2Klmf3cvD_7QpSyLip Spanish gypsy flamenco - playlist]<br /> <br /> Carmen Amaya:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jOILTzgjwo&list=PLhL9X0noKimi9onxyFiH_PD_8iwOOjL5Z Carmen Amaya - playlist]<br /> <br /> Flamenco and miscellaneous:<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CjLfu9zCk Flamenco Guitar Barcelona]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTl3Dh5wans Pepe Habichuela - Alegrias]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/user/flamencodeverdad Flamenco guitar YouTube channel]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/user/shahin0ne87 Flamenco guitar YouTube channel]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y14_421JAY Caption Flamenco - II]<br /> <br /> == Spanish guitar ==<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA&playnext=1&list=PL5B2AA9BD3D89D57F Spanish guitar playlist]<br /> <br /> '''Lawson Rollins:'''<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA&list=PLBc9J-cEXHn64LR3iJRS7X_Rt4-e7uZ3q Lawson Rollins - playlist]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA&feature=fvw Virtuoso Spanish Guitar - Lawson Rollins]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g9HvbKiHNc New!! Virtuoso Spanish Guitar part 2]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tpQXD_bJVE&feature=related Santa Ana Wind------ Lawson Rollins]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65wEH9Kb_ZM&feature=related Echoes of Madrid-Lawson Rollins]<br /> <br /> '''Flamenco Guitar:'''<br /> <br /> Carlos Montoya:<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv2Fyjk0GGM&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqVE2U7oJXpI4FLrSQKzaxWe Carlos Montoya playlist]<br /> <br /> Juan Serrano:<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTbT7-OiaBQ JUAN SERRANO FLAMENCO GUITAR Master 1988]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcsmvWUcTRc&feature=related Juan Serrano "Bulerias en La menor"]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izwxgvcmBzU&feature=related JuanSerrano - Flamenco Guitar Performance @ NAMM 2009]<br /> <br /> Paco de Lucia:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmLxVlHZZZs&list=RDXmLxVlHZZZs&t=11 Paco de Lucia - playlist]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Vj7m06MlE&list=PL48620ED5D45D6BDB Paco de Lucia - playlist 2]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oyhlad64-s&list=PL381E3F8BB4CE3005 Paco de Lucia - playlist 3]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlrCKi-ss4&list=PLEVZhz7AswXLox5N2qqPfoBCdd4XWH1eW Paco de Lucia -playlist 4]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oyhlad64-s&list=PL6EAB6EDB6EB25CE0 Paco de Lucia - playlist 5]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TmxfHbd-M0&feature=related Paco de Lucia "Impetu & Panaderos"]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlrCKi-ss4&feature=fvw Entre dos aguas - Paco de Lucía]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ7Yf-5Js0Y&feature=related Paco De Lucia - Antonia (Buleria Por Solea) Flamenco Guitar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BQrWJzTPA8&feature=related Paco de Lucia & Band - Cositas Buenas Part 1]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_umavcwCjso&feature=related Paco de Lucia & Band - Cositas Buenas Part 2]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o8vszqVL2U&feature=related Paco de Lucia - Entre dos Aguas]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceKW1QYN1oo Paco de Lucia = Tico-Tico]<br /> <br /> Paco Cepero and La Marelu Alborea:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVdThh6qySk&list=PLDNcJYY3fDPW6WOPVKrqcNOgbTvINqAWm Paco Cepero - Top tracks]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y14_421JAY&list=PLD562C6EDEEEB290E&feature=plpp Paco Cepero - playlist 1]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT9wwwH1_No&list=PLVXgNvrL2iYrz5P_4fvprghzrebpFpkP0 Paco Cepero - playlist 2]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg5o5zpbqt4&list=PLDNcJYY3fDPXVvdr7bPvdLoVJYQ0-G408 Paco Cepero - playlist 3]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH-McaEhMow&list=PLwnSBvWUoL02SEgjN_mA3n7nlVJ0wmlbG La Marelu y Paco Cepero - playlist]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeDeMFAli6c&list=PL6012B332927D11E5&feature=plpp La Marelu playlist]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y14_421JAY Paco Cepero - Gaditana (Flamenco Guitar)]<br /> *[http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8esi2_paco-cepero_music Paco Cepero - Daily motion]<br /> *[http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-lebrijano-y-paco-cepero-7590983.html LEBRIJANO Y PACO CEPERO]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y14_421JAY&feature=PlayList&p=A5DC0826E1D003F6&index=0&playnext=1 Paco Cepero - Gaditana playlist]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeDeMFAli6c La Marelu y Paco Cepero - Jaleos Extremeños] <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhxjYVjxqbQ La Marelu y Paco Cepero - Tangos]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx7eXNwnzmM MARELU POR FANDANGOS LA MAS MEJOR]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZTCSUEI3mc MARELU ALBOREA]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_PlycbQNAQ MARELU FANDANGO GUENO DE VERDA DE LA MA FLAMENCA]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZE6NpH2FoA La Marelu - Mora cantaora]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbyv5_dj_9w La Marelu - Como quieres tú]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DBeyuZzyvo LA MARELU porke lo kiero]<br /> <br /> '''El Gato Montes:'''<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAYSQXSMnss&feature=related El Gato Montes,Banda Sinfónica Española]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCZYpGzu7rA&feature=related Banda fallas 2008 valencia (el gato montes)]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQwWvw3uTJM&feature=related El Gato Montés (Pasodoble)]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoPKcps9LA El Gato Montés - Manuel Penella]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECkS4gOSamQ&feature=related El Gato Montes]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-dTvBNSNXo&feature=related El Gato Montes Pasodoble Akkordeon]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5lQ0Dw1I-U El Gato Montes on the accordion]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyhLzognxyQ El Gato Montes By Addtone Guitar Ensemble]<br /> *[http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=NWJ0MEZqcWuRpU1BaVnM&tuna-femenina-javeriana-el-gato-montes= Tuna Femenina Javeriana El Gato Montes]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt1bOQ20V3M El Gato Montes - Pasodoble]<br /> *[http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A0geu734jndLliYBtqRXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&p=El%20Gato%20Montes&fr2=tab-web&fr=chrf-ytbm El Gato Montes]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh3g4JbhFEg El Gato Montes - Pasodoble Torero - Spanish March for Brass Quintet]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUHDOd4PQWE&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqWOfK-R-is2GgvaurMca9sh&index=4 El Toro/Pasodobles Performances]<br /> [[File:Worship-at-Sunset .jpg|thumbnail|425px|right]]<br /> '''Bullfighter's song:'''<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szIm-3Eyhvw Bullfighter's song]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZojQYTqTmsc&feature=related Bullfighter's Song]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xkH_4MYV9U&feature=related Matador by Robert Michaels]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMfLLT9W7Xg&list=PLc2eSR_oncVikUNWgDRV-vL0DSLMo7WUR Bullfighter's song]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkWCbz54JSU&playnext=1&list=PLFC30F2B01D77B6F5 Spanish guitar, El Gato Montes, and Spanish music collection]<br /> <br /> '''Mariachi Music'''<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmSOSM1Z79s&feature=PlayList&p=31819F6A82326AFE&index=0&playnext=1 Mariachi Music]<br /> <br /> === Spanish Guitar ===<br /> <br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=JZYAKa1euUA&v=PHU-AJTn0I8 Spanish Guitar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=zQIvE-Em4Yk&v=Dh3IXhz0Qg0 Spanish Guitar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=N62X6xY0dBU&v=TgpxRSfSIxY Spanish Guitar]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K05yRyN-mg&list=PL3C9AJX5guQ2WEO96sTOurnjOo12OXVmM Malaguena]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6OELch9tjc Espana cani]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qzVTQyjkEw&feature=related Spanish Romance]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T61batL8vTk Pajarillo by Luis Zea - Dimitris Kotronakis, guitar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jch7q0j9Mc Espana cani - classical guitar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRKraCRi6fo Espana Cani]<br /> <br /> === Rumba ===<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=VrrmsVg5SIs&v=O-2y2ovSkCU Rumba]<br /> <br /> === Misc. Spanish/Latin Music and videos ===<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=600kmRM213o El Porompompero]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kebE4uA_JcQ&feature=related El porompompero]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoZU7VABzwc El porompompero - Manolo Escobar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18l1q9F-FZs El porompompero - Manolo Escobar]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KScJ2rUaZhU&list=PLWo-PXvaXLACAloUh2iO5j25Z1tHQLOpE Manolo Escobar - Porompompero - movie]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0HRUGm5atE El porompompero - Marisol]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IWY7E01Fo Manolo Escobar]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1lcJYSgdLg Suspiros de España (por Plácido Domingo)]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXZIv0CwDs Kotaro Oshio - BOLERO(PV)]<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xup-pkSSWqE Bolero - guitar]<br /> <br /> == Gipsy Kings ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqF61V685wc&index=1&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqVaDy4H1OPp6_3gus0Kg1Hp Gipsy Kings - playlist]<br /> <br /> == Spanish rythmic ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JpD5skqGOo&list=PLi6SPoxGbCqUqriL2ql8z2VkV1NZVfTIY Spanish rythmic]<br /> <br /> == Latin Music Pop ==<br /> <br /> *[https://sites.google.com/site/latinmusicpop373/ Latin Music Pop]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkJ5WLZpQkk&list=PLMf27lVj9SpaxmGjWDk8FFSN_2q8LakUV SOCCER ANTHEM OLE OLE OLE]<br /> <br /> == Spanish movie songs ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_kMXRp9Xic Sadness (song Lisa Gerrard - Man on fire End theme)]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgz71v1oIk Man On Fire Final Scene Complete]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KScJ2rUaZhU&list=PLWo-PXvaXLACAloUh2iO5j25Z1tHQLOpE Manolo Escobar - Porompompero]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Q0XXXWY90 No Puedo (Spanish Folk Song) Full Video | Jaatishwar Bengali Movie 2014 | Dibyendu Mukherjee]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Hinokitiol&diff=1672805 Hinokitiol 2020-07-30T17:26:06Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>Hinokitiol (β-thujaplicin) is a naturally occurring [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinokitiol monoterpenoid] found in the wooden part of trees in the family [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinokitiol Cupressaceae]. It is a tropolone derivative and is extensively used in oral care and treatment products for its potent broad-spectrum antiviral,[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18922875/ [1]] antimicrobial[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10513629/ [2]] and anti-inflammatory [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25952949/ [3]] properties. Hinokitiol is a Zinc, and Iron Ionophore additionally approved as a food additive.[https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jhep/43/2/43_299/_article/-char/ja/ [4]]<br /> <br /> It was first isolated in Taiwanese hinoki in 1936, signifying the origin of the name Hinokitiol. It is almost absent in Japanese hinoki now. At the same time, it is still contained in high concentration (about 0.04% of heartwood mass) in Juniperus Cedrus, Hiba cedarwood (Thujopsis dolabrata) and Western red cedar (Thuja plicata). It can be easily extracted from the cedarwood with solvent and ultrasonication.[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/tcr.201200024 [5<nowiki>]</nowiki>] [https://www.degruyter.com/view/journals/hfsg/61/2/article-p190.xml [6<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol is similar to a tropolone in structure, which lacks the isopropyl substituent. Tropolones are active chelating agents.<ref>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17055455/</ref><br /> <br /> '''Antimicrobial activity'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol has a wide range of biological activities, many of which have been discovered and specified in the literature. The first, and most famous, is the potent antimicrobial activity against many bacteria and fungi, regardless of antibiotic resistance. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0944501312001462?via%3Dihub [7<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio1996/12/3/12_3_101/_article [8<nowiki>]</nowiki>] To be precise, Hinokitiol has shown to be effective against Streptococcus pneumonia, Streptococcus mutans, and Staphylococcus Aureus, common human pathogens. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5040402/ [9<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1348-0421.12688 [10<nowiki>]</nowiki>] Additionally, Hinokitiol has been demonstrated to have inhibitory effects on Chlamydia trachomatis and may be clinically beneficial as a topical drug. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1140513/ [11<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-3-8383-4661-8 [12<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Antiviral activity'''<br /> <br /> Some recent studies have shown that Hinokitiol also demonstrates antiviral action when used in combination with a zinc compound against several human viruses, including rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [13<nowiki>]</nowiki>] Curing viral infections has the potential to reap the mass economic benefit and must be of dire importance to global institutions such as the World Health Organisation. By impairing viral polyprotein processing, Hinokitiol inhibits viral replication - however, this capability is dependent upon the availability of divalent metal ions, as Hinokitiol is a chelator thereof.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [14<nowiki>]</nowiki>] The presence of zinc, combined with Hinokitiol, supports these capabilities and is discussed further as follows.<br /> <br /> '''Anti-Inflammatory'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol revealed a modulatory effect on the production of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha, a factor that influences skin inflammation and hair follicle apoptosis. This is achieved at the transcription level by disrupting the mRNA synthesis of TNF-alpha. Additionally, it suppresses phosphorylation of PDK1, Akt/PKB, and ERK, as a result diminishing the nuclear factor (NF)-kappaB activation, hence restoring hair loss.[[(https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/papers/18537078)|[15]]] In a recent study, Hinokitiol also revealed notable protection against ocular surface inflammation in dry eye syndrome (DES by inhibiting the NF-κB pathway [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4506343/ [16<nowiki>]</nowiki>].<br /> <br /> '''Other activities'''<br /> <br /> In addition to antimicrobial activity, anti-inflammatory, and anti-tumor activities, characterized in several in vitro cell studies and in vivo animal studies. Hinokitiol determined to exert cytotoxicity on several prominent cancer cell lines by inducing autophagic processes.[http://www.kjcls.org/journal/view.html?doi=10.15324/kjcls.2019.51.2.221 [17<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5979393/ [18<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> = History =<br /> == Discovery ==<br /> In 1936, [http://Dr.%20Tetsui%20Nozoe Dr. Tetsui Nozoe] discovered the presence of Hinokitiol from the Taiwan cypress essential oil. the element has a heptagonal molecular structure that is believed to be non-existent within nature.<ref>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25346458/</ref><br /> <br /> === Modern research ===<br /> <br /> '''Anti-Cancer'''<br /> <br /> This study indicates the inhibitory effect of hinokitiol on the migration of human adenocarcinoma A549 cells. The anticancer properties of hinokitiol are supported by the evaluation of results in the present study, including an increase of Bax/p53 and cytochrome c, and further activation of caspases-9/-3 and antioxidant enzymes CAT and SOD. Moreover, we discovered the inhibitory impact of hinokitiol on the A549 cell migration was accompanied through the downregulation of MMPs-9 and MMP-2. These outcomes can also illustrate a new therapeutic value of hinokitiol in anticancer therapy.<br /> <br /> Furthermore, another research showed strong anticancer characteristics of Hinokitiol by increasing the cytotoxicity against cervical cancer cells and non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC) cells. Most cancers cell deaths are medicated through caspase-3 in apoptosis and consequently enlarged lysosomes which are regarded as the possession of anticancer compounds and that can possibly result in lysosomal injury and increased autophagy followed by severe cell death. The choice of therapeutic to hinokitiol, a herbal product derivative, can be concluded to have a mechanism of action against NSCLC with minimum cytotoxic and maximized therapeutic effects.[http://www.kjcls.org/journal/view.html?doi=10.15324/kjcls.2019.51.2.221 [19<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Further Cancer research'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol has shown an established mechanism to antagonize epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) protein expression in mammosphere production breast cancer stem/progenitor cells (BCSCs) without altering the messenger RNA expression. Hinokitiol also decreased the stability of EGFR in BCSCs. The stable protein expression of EGFR and vasculogenic mimicry (VM) production capability of hinokitiol treated BCSCs were restored by combination treatment with a proteasome antagonist, MG132. It can be concluded that hinokitiol may antagonize the VM activity of BCSCs by stimulating proteasome-mediated EGFR break-down. Hinokitiol may be considered as a novel breast cancer therapeutic agent, by acting as an anti-VM. [https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/ol.2016.4300#:~:text=Hinokitiol%20dose%2Ddependently%20inhibits%20VM,anti%2Dinflammatory%20and%20antitumor%20activity [20<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> Further study demonstrated Hinokitiol regulates estrogen receptor signaling and also antagonizes the proliferation of breast cancer cells in humans. Hence, it can be considered as a promising agent against the treatment of hormone-sensitive mammary tumorigenesis.[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09168451.2015.1008978 [21<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Hinokitiol with Curcumin'''<br /> <br /> A potent effect was observed against NSCLC and gefitinib resistant NSCLC cells when Hinokitiol was used in combination with Curcumin. This treatment indicated minimal cytotoxicity to healthy cells. [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1934578X1801301223 [22<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Coronavirus research'''<br /> <br /> Potential antiviral effects of Hinokitiol arise from its action as a zinc ionophore. Hinokitiol enables the influx of zinc ions into cells, which inhibit the replication machinery of RNA viruses, and subsequently hindering the replication of the virus.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [23<nowiki>]</nowiki>] Some notable RNA viruses include the human influenza virus, SARS. Zinc ions were able to inhibit viral replication within cells significantly and proved that the action was dependent on zinc influx. This study was done with the zinc ionophore pyrithione, which functions very similarly to Hinokitiol.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2973827/ [24<nowiki>]</nowiki>] In cell cultures, hinokitiol inhibit human rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus multiplication. Hinokitiol interferes with the processing of viral polyproteins, thus inhibiting picornavirus replication. Hinokitiol inhibits the replication of picornaviruses by impairing the viral polyprotein processing and that the antiviral activity of hinokitiol is dependent on the availability of zinc ions.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [25<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Iron ionophore'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol has been shown to restore hemoglobin production in rodents. Hinokitiol acts as an iron ionophore to channel iron into cells,[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5470741/ [26<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/iron-man-molecule-restores-balance-cells [27<nowiki>]</nowiki>] increasing intracellular iron levels. Approximately 70% of the iron in humans is contained within red blood cells and specifically the hemoglobin protein. Iron is essential to almost all living organisms, and it is a critical element of several anatomical functions such as the oxygen transport system, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) synthesis, and electron transport and an iron deficiency can lead to blood disorders such as Anemia which, can be significantly detrimental to both physical and mental performance.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3999603 [28<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Zinc synergism'''<br /> <br /> <br /> Hinokitiol is a Zinc ionophore, and this capability is believed to inhibit viral replication. In brief, as a zinc ionophore, Hinokitiol aids in the transport molecules into cells through a plasma membrane or intracellular membrane, thus increasing the intracellular concentration of the specified molecule (ex. Zinc). Hence, by taking advantage of Zinc’s antiviral properties, in combination with Hinokitiol, Zinc uptake can be accelerated.[https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/ionophores]<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Zinc Deficiency'''<br /> <br /> Zinc deficiency has been demonstrated in some cancer cells, and returning optimum intra-cellular zinc levels can lead to suppression of tumor growth. Hinokitiol is a documented Zinc Ionophore; however, more research is required to establish effective concentrations of delivery methods for Hinokitiol and Zinc.<br /> <br /> · “Effects of dietary zinc on melanoma growth and experimental metastasis...” [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304383583902069]<br /> <br /> · “Dietary zinc deficiency fuels esophageal cancer development by inducing a distinct inflammatory signature...” [https://www.nature.com/articles/onc2011592]<br /> <br /> · “Zinc levels were relatively lower in patients with lung cancer as compared to a control group: a meta-analysis of observational studies...” [https://wjso.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12957-019-1617-5]<br /> <br /> · “Research progress on the relationship between zinc deficiency, related microRNA s, and esophageal carcinoma...” [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1759-7714.12493]<br /> <br /> Products containing Hinokitiol include toothpaste, oral sprays, sunscreen, and other cosmetics.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''EWG Scoring Scale'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol is also used in a wide range of consumer products, including cosmetics, toothpaste, oral sprays, sunscreens & hair-growth. One of the leading brands in the sale of consumer hinokitiol products is Hinoki Clinical. Hinoki Clinical (est. 1956) was established shortly after the first ‘industrial extraction of hinokitiol’ began in 1955.[https://www.hinoki.co.jp/products/hinokitiol/] Hinoki currently has over 18 different product ranges with hinokitiol as an ingredient. Another brand, namely, ‘Relief Life,’[https://www.anshin-tsuuhan.com/item/propogreen.html] , has boasted over a million sales with their ‘Dental Series’ toothpaste containing hinokitiol.[https://item.rakuten.co.jp/anshintsuuhan/10000015/] Other notable producers of hinokitiol based products include Otsuka Pharmaceuticals, Kobayashi Pharmaceuticals, Taisho Pharmaceuticals, SS Pharmaceuticals. Besides Asia, companies such as Swanson Vitamins®️ are commencing the utilization of hinokitiol in consumer products in markets such as the U.S.A.[https://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-coq10-antioxidant-serum-1-fl-oz-liquid] and Australia [https://www.swansonaustralia.com/en/home/1033-now-foods-solutions-hyaluronic-acid-firming-serum-1-fl-oz-30ml.html] as an anti-oxidant serum and in other endeavors. In 2006, hinokitiol was categorized under the Domestic Substances List in Canada as non-persistent, non-bioaccumulative & non-toxic to aquatic organisms.[https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/1d946396-cf9a-4fa1-8942-4541063bfba4] The Environmental Working Group (EWG), an American activist group, has dedicated a page to the ingredient hinokitiol indicating that it is ‘low hazard’ in areas such as “Allergies & Immunotoxicity,” “Cancer” & “Developmental & Reproductive Toxicity” [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredients/702859-HINOKITIOL/] giving Hinokitiol a score of 1-2. In contrast to Hinokitiol’s score, Propylparaben, an ingredient still sold in various mouthwashes, exhibits vast toxicity and hazardous concerns. Propylparaben has been deemed by the European Commission on Hormone Disruption to be a Human endocrine disruptor, among other concerns [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredients/705335-PROPYLPARABEN/] leaving it at a rating of 4-6 on the EWG website.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Dr. ZinX'''<br /> <br /> On 2 April 2020, Advance Nanotek,[https://www.advancenanotek.com/] an Australian producer of zinc oxide, filed a joint patent application with AstiVita Limited,[https://www.astivita.com.au/] for an antiviral composition that included various oral care products [http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/applicationDetails.do?applicationNo=2020900820] containing hinokitiol as a vital component. The brand that is now incorporating this new invention is called Dr. ZinX and is likely to release its Zinc + Hinokitiol combination products in 2020.[https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200520/pdf/44hzh0v8bqgvlx.pdf][https://www.drzinx.com/] On 18 May 2020, Dr. ZinX published test results for a “Quantitative suspension test for the evaluation of hinokitol's virucidal properties in the medical area” [https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200520/pdf/44hzh0v8bqgvlx.pdf][https://www.drzinx.com/testresults] declaring a ‘3.25 log’ reduction (99.9% reduction) for a neat concentration in 5 minutes against COVID-19 surrogate Feline Coronavirus.[https://www.tga.gov.au/surrogate-viruses-use-disinfectant-efficacy-tests-justify-claims-against-covid-19] Zinc is considered to be an essential dietary supplement and trace element in the body. Globally it is estimated that 17.3% of the population has inadequate Zinc intake.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510072/][https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/11/3422/4687273]<br /> <br /> <br /> '''A Promising Future'''<br /> <br /> Beginning in the 2000s, researchers considered that hinokitiol could be of value as a pharmaceutical ingredient, notably for its inhibitory effect on the bacterium ''Chlamydia trachomatis''.<ref>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7823344_In_Vitro_Inhibitory_Effects_of_Hinokitiol_on_Proliferation_of_Chlamydia_trachomatis</ref><br /> Chemist Martin Burke and colleagues at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign and other institutions discovered the significance of hinokitiol in the medical field.<ref>https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/499712</ref> Burke’s goal was to overcome the imbalance of iron transport in animals. Deficiencies of several proteins can lead to iron deficiency in cells (anemia) or the opposite effect, Hemochromatosis.[https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/h/hinokitiol.html] Using gene-depleted yeast cultures as surrogates, the researchers screened a library of small biomolecules for iron transport signs and, therefore, cell growth. Hinokitiol was identified to be the one that rejuvenate cell's functionality.<ref>https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/iron-man-molecule-restores-balance-cells </ref> Further study by the team established the mechanism by which hinokitiol balances cell iron.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5470741/] They then diverted their study to mammals and found that when rodents that had been engineered to lack “iron proteins” were fed hinokitiol, they regained iron uptake by increasing the absorption in the gut. In a similar study on zebrafish, hinokitiol revealed to restore Hemoglobin production.[https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/iron-man-molecule-restores-balance-cells] A commentary on the work of Burke et al. nicknamed hinokitiol the “Iron Man molecule”.<ref>https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/h/hinokitiol.html </ref> This is fitting/ironic because discoverer Nozoe’s first name can be translated into English as “iron man”.<ref>https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/h/hinokitiol.html </ref> <br /> <br /> Significant research has also been conducted into the oral applications of Hinokitiol, given the increased demand for Hinokitiol based oral products. One such study, affiliated with eight different institutions in Japan, titled: “Antibacterial Activity of Hinokitiol Against Both Antibiotic-Resistant and -Susceptible Pathogenic Bacteria That Predominate in the Oral Cavity and Upper Airways” concluded that “hinokitiol demonstrates antibacterial activity against a broad spectrum of pathogenic bacteria and has low cytotoxicity towards human epithelial cells.” [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1348-0421.12688]<br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> [[Category:Dietary Supplements]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Hinokitiol&diff=1672804 Hinokitiol 2020-07-30T17:24:44Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>Hinokitiol (β-thujaplicin) is a naturally occurring [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinokitiol monoterpenoid] found in the wooden part of trees in the family [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinokitiol Cupressaceae]. It is a tropolone derivative and is extensively used in oral care and treatment products for its potent broad-spectrum antiviral,[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18922875/ [1]] antimicrobial[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10513629/ [2]] and anti-inflammatory [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25952949/ [3]] properties. Hinokitiol is a Zinc, and Iron Ionophore additionally approved as a food additive.[https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jhep/43/2/43_299/_article/-char/ja/ [4]]<br /> <br /> It was first isolated in Taiwanese hinoki in 1936, signifying the origin of the name Hinokitiol. It is almost absent in Japanese hinoki now. At the same time, it is still contained in high concentration (about 0.04% of heartwood mass) in Juniperus Cedrus, Hiba cedarwood (Thujopsis dolabrata) and Western red cedar (Thuja plicata). It can be easily extracted from the cedarwood with solvent and ultrasonication.[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/tcr.201200024 [5<nowiki>]</nowiki>] [https://www.degruyter.com/view/journals/hfsg/61/2/article-p190.xml [6<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol is similar to a tropolone in structure, which lacks the isopropyl substituent. Tropolones are active chelating agents.<ref>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17055455/</ref><br /> <br /> '''Antimicrobial activity'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol has a wide range of biological activities, many of which have been discovered and specified in the literature. The first, and most famous, is the potent antimicrobial activity against many bacteria and fungi, regardless of antibiotic resistance. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0944501312001462?via%3Dihub [7<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio1996/12/3/12_3_101/_article [8<nowiki>]</nowiki>] To be precise, Hinokitiol has shown to be effective against Streptococcus pneumonia, Streptococcus mutans, and Staphylococcus Aureus, common human pathogens. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5040402/ [9<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1348-0421.12688 [10<nowiki>]</nowiki>] Additionally, Hinokitiol has been demonstrated to have inhibitory effects on Chlamydia trachomatis and may be clinically beneficial as a topical drug. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1140513/ [11<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-3-8383-4661-8 [12<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Antiviral activity'''<br /> <br /> Some recent studies have shown that Hinokitiol also demonstrates antiviral action when used in combination with a zinc compound against several human viruses, including rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [13<nowiki>]</nowiki>] Curing viral infections has the potential to reap the mass economic benefit and must be of dire importance to global institutions such as the World Health Organisation. By impairing viral polyprotein processing, Hinokitiol inhibits viral replication - however, this capability is dependent upon the availability of divalent metal ions, as Hinokitiol is a chelator thereof.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [14<nowiki>]</nowiki>] The presence of zinc, combined with Hinokitiol, supports these capabilities and is discussed further as follows.<br /> <br /> '''Anti-Inflammatory'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol revealed a modulatory effect on the production of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha, a factor that influences skin inflammation and hair follicle apoptosis. This is achieved at the transcription level by disrupting the mRNA synthesis of TNF-alpha. Additionally, it suppresses phosphorylation of PDK1, Akt/PKB, and ERK, as a result diminishing the nuclear factor (NF)-kappaB activation, hence restoring hair loss.[[(https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/papers/18537078)|[15]]] In a recent study, Hinokitiol also revealed notable protection against ocular surface inflammation in dry eye syndrome (DES by inhibiting the NF-κB pathway [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4506343/ [16<nowiki>]</nowiki>].<br /> <br /> '''Other activities'''<br /> <br /> In addition to antimicrobial activity, anti-inflammatory, and anti-tumor activities, characterized in several in vitro cell studies and in vivo animal studies. Hinokitiol determined to exert cytotoxicity on several prominent cancer cell lines by inducing autophagic processes.[http://www.kjcls.org/journal/view.html?doi=10.15324/kjcls.2019.51.2.221 [17<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5979393/ [18<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> = History =<br /> == Discovery ==<br /> In 1936, [http://Dr.%20Tetsui%20Nozoe Dr. Tetsui Nozoe] discovered the presence of Hinokitiol from the Taiwan cypress essential oil. the element has a heptagonal molecular structure that is believed to be non-existent within nature.<ref>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25346458/</ref><br /> <br /> === Modern research ===<br /> <br /> '''Anti-Cancer'''<br /> <br /> This study indicates the inhibitory effect of hinokitiol on the migration of human adenocarcinoma A549 cells. The anticancer properties of hinokitiol are supported by the evaluation of results in the present study, including an increase of Bax/p53 and cytochrome c, and further activation of caspases-9/-3 and antioxidant enzymes CAT and SOD. Moreover, we discovered the inhibitory impact of hinokitiol on the A549 cell migration was accompanied through the downregulation of MMPs-9 and MMP-2. These outcomes can also illustrate a new therapeutic value of hinokitiol in anticancer therapy.<br /> <br /> Furthermore, another research showed strong anticancer characteristics of Hinokitiol by increasing the cytotoxicity against cervical cancer cells and non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC) cells. Most cancers cell deaths are medicated through caspase-3 in apoptosis and consequently enlarged lysosomes which are regarded as the possession of anticancer compounds and that can possibly result in lysosomal injury and increased autophagy followed by severe cell death. The choice of therapeutic to hinokitiol, a herbal product derivative, can be concluded to have a mechanism of action against NSCLC with minimum cytotoxic and maximized therapeutic effects.[http://www.kjcls.org/journal/view.html?doi=10.15324/kjcls.2019.51.2.221 [19<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Further Cancer research'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol has shown an established mechanism to antagonize epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR) protein expression in mammosphere production breast cancer stem/progenitor cells (BCSCs) without altering the messenger RNA expression. Hinokitiol also decreased the stability of EGFR in BCSCs. The stable protein expression of EGFR and vasculogenic mimicry (VM) production capability of hinokitiol treated BCSCs were restored by combination treatment with a proteasome antagonist, MG132. It can be concluded that hinokitiol may antagonize the VM activity of BCSCs by stimulating proteasome-mediated EGFR break-down. Hinokitiol may be considered as a novel breast cancer therapeutic agent, by acting as an anti-VM. [https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/ol.2016.4300#:~:text=Hinokitiol%20dose%2Ddependently%20inhibits%20VM,anti%2Dinflammatory%20and%20antitumor%20activity [20<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> Further study demonstrated Hinokitiol regulates estrogen receptor signaling and also antagonizes the proliferation of breast cancer cells in humans. Hence, it can be considered as a promising agent against the treatment of hormone-sensitive mammary tumorigenesis.[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09168451.2015.1008978 [21<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Hinokitiol with Curcumin'''<br /> <br /> A potent effect was observed against NSCLC and gefitinib resistant NSCLC cells when Hinokitiol was used in combination with Curcumin. This treatment indicated minimal cytotoxicity to healthy cells. [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1934578X1801301223 [22<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Coronavirus research'''<br /> <br /> Potential antiviral effects of Hinokitiol arise from its action as a zinc ionophore. Hinokitiol enables the influx of zinc ions into cells, which inhibit the replication machinery of RNA viruses, and subsequently hindering the replication of the virus.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [23<nowiki>]</nowiki>] Some notable RNA viruses include the human influenza virus, SARS. Zinc ions were able to inhibit viral replication within cells significantly and proved that the action was dependent on zinc influx. This study was done with the zinc ionophore pyrithione, which functions very similarly to Hinokitiol.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2973827/ [24<nowiki>]</nowiki>] In cell cultures, hinokitiol inhibit human rhinovirus, coxsackievirus, and mengovirus multiplication. Hinokitiol interferes with the processing of viral polyproteins, thus inhibiting picornavirus replication. Hinokitiol inhibits the replication of picornaviruses by impairing the viral polyprotein processing and that the antiviral activity of hinokitiol is dependent on the availability of zinc ions.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612303/ [25<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Iron ionophore'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol has been shown to restore hemoglobin production in rodents. Hinokitiol acts as an iron ionophore to channel iron into cells,[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5470741/ [26<nowiki>]</nowiki>][https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/iron-man-molecule-restores-balance-cells [27<nowiki>]</nowiki>] increasing intracellular iron levels. Approximately 70% of the iron in humans is contained within red blood cells and specifically the hemoglobin protein. Iron is essential to almost all living organisms, and it is a critical element of several anatomical functions such as the oxygen transport system, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) synthesis, and electron transport and an iron deficiency can lead to blood disorders such as Anemia which, can be significantly detrimental to both physical and mental performance.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3999603 [28<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> <br /> '''Zinc synergism'''<br /> <br /> <br /> Hinokitiol is a Zinc ionophore, and this capability is believed to inhibit viral replication. In brief, as a zinc ionophore, Hinokitiol aids in the transport molecules into cells through a plasma membrane or intracellular membrane, thus increasing the intracellular concentration of the specified molecule (ex. Zinc). Hence, by taking advantage of Zinc’s antiviral properties, in combination with Hinokitiol, Zinc uptake can be accelerated.[https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/ionophores]<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Zinc Deficiency'''<br /> <br /> Zinc deficiency has been demonstrated in some cancer cells, and returning optimum intra-cellular zinc levels can lead to suppression of tumor growth. Hinokitiol is a documented Zinc Ionophore; however, more research is required to establish effective concentrations of delivery methods for Hinokitiol and Zinc.<br /> <br /> · “Effects of dietary zinc on melanoma growth and experimental metastasis...” [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304383583902069]<br /> <br /> · “Dietary zinc deficiency fuels esophageal cancer development by inducing a distinct inflammatory signature...” [https://www.nature.com/articles/onc2011592]<br /> <br /> · “Zinc levels were relatively lower in patients with lung cancer as compared to a control group: a meta-analysis of observational studies...” [https://wjso.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12957-019-1617-5]<br /> <br /> · “Research progress on the relationship between zinc deficiency, related microRNA s, and esophageal carcinoma...” [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1759-7714.12493]<br /> <br /> Products containing Hinokitiol include toothpaste, oral sprays, sunscreen, and other cosmetics.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''EWG Scoring Scale'''<br /> <br /> Hinokitiol is also used in a wide range of consumer products, including cosmetics, toothpaste, oral sprays, sunscreens & hair-growth. One of the leading brands in the sale of consumer hinokitiol products is Hinoki Clinical. Hinoki Clinical (est. 1956) was established shortly after the first ‘industrial extraction of hinokitiol’ began in 1955.[https://www.hinoki.co.jp/products/hinokitiol/] Hinoki currently has over 18 different product ranges with hinokitiol as an ingredient. Another brand, namely, ‘Relief Life,’[https://www.anshin-tsuuhan.com/item/propogreen.html] , has boasted over a million sales with their ‘Dental Series’ toothpaste containing hinokitiol.[https://item.rakuten.co.jp/anshintsuuhan/10000015/] Other notable producers of hinokitiol based products include Otsuka Pharmaceuticals, Kobayashi Pharmaceuticals, Taisho Pharmaceuticals, SS Pharmaceuticals. Besides Asia, companies such as Swanson Vitamins®️ are commencing the utilization of hinokitiol in consumer products in markets such as the U.S.A.[https://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-coq10-antioxidant-serum-1-fl-oz-liquid] and Australia [https://www.swansonaustralia.com/en/home/1033-now-foods-solutions-hyaluronic-acid-firming-serum-1-fl-oz-30ml.html] as an anti-oxidant serum and in other endeavors. In 2006, hinokitiol was categorized under the Domestic Substances List in Canada as non-persistent, non-bioaccumulative & non-toxic to aquatic organisms.[https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/1d946396-cf9a-4fa1-8942-4541063bfba4] The Environmental Working Group (EWG), an American activist group, has dedicated a page to the ingredient hinokitiol indicating that it is ‘low hazard’ in areas such as “Allergies & Immunotoxicity,” “Cancer” & “Developmental & Reproductive Toxicity” [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredients/702859-HINOKITIOL/] giving Hinokitiol a score of 1-2. In contrast to Hinokitiol’s score, Propylparaben, an ingredient still sold in various mouthwashes, exhibits vast toxicity and hazardous concerns. Propylparaben has been deemed by the European Commission on Hormone Disruption to be a Human endocrine disruptor, among other concerns [https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredients/705335-PROPYLPARABEN/] leaving it at a rating of 4-6 on the EWG website.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Dr. ZinX'''<br /> <br /> On 2 April 2020, Advance Nanotek,[https://www.advancenanotek.com/] an Australian producer of zinc oxide, filed a joint patent application with AstiVita Limited,[https://www.astivita.com.au/] for an antiviral composition that included various oral care products [http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/applicationDetails.do?applicationNo=2020900820] containing hinokitiol as a vital component. The brand that is now incorporating this new invention is called Dr. ZinX and is likely to release its Zinc + Hinokitiol combination products in 2020.[https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200520/pdf/44hzh0v8bqgvlx.pdf][https://www.drzinx.com/] On 18 May 2020, Dr. ZinX published test results for a “Quantitative suspension test for the evaluation of hinokitol's virucidal properties in the medical area” [https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20200520/pdf/44hzh0v8bqgvlx.pdf][https://www.drzinx.com/testresults] declaring a ‘3.25 log’ reduction (99.9% reduction) for a neat concentration in 5 minutes against COVID-19 surrogate Feline Coronavirus.[https://www.tga.gov.au/surrogate-viruses-use-disinfectant-efficacy-tests-justify-claims-against-covid-19] Zinc is considered to be an essential dietary supplement and trace element in the body. Globally it is estimated that 17.3% of the population has inadequate Zinc intake.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510072/][https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/11/3422/4687273]<br /> <br /> <br /> '''A Promising Future'''<br /> <br /> Beginning in the 2000s, researchers considered that hinokitiol could be of value as a pharmaceutical ingredient, notably for its inhibitory effect on the bacterium ''Chlamydia trachomatis''.<ref>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7823344_In_Vitro_Inhibitory_Effects_of_Hinokitiol_on_Proliferation_of_Chlamydia_trachomatis</ref><br /> Chemist Martin Burke and colleagues at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign and other institutions discovered the significance of hinokitiol in the medical field.<ref>https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/499712</ref> Burke’s goal was to overcome the imbalance of iron transport in animals. Deficiencies of several proteins can lead to iron deficiency in cells (anemia) or the opposite effect, Hemochromatosis.[https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/h/hinokitiol.html] Using gene-depleted yeast cultures as surrogates, the researchers screened a library of small biomolecules for iron transport signs and, therefore, cell growth. Hinokitiol was identified to be the one that rejuvenate cell's functionality.<ref>https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/iron-man-molecule-restores-balance-cells </ref> Further study by the team established the mechanism by which hinokitiol balances cell iron.[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5470741/] They then diverted their study to mammals and found that when rodents that had been engineered to lack “iron proteins” were fed hinokitiol, they regained iron uptake by increasing the absorption in the gut. In a similar study on zebrafish, hinokitiol revealed to restore Hemoglobin production.[https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/iron-man-molecule-restores-balance-cells] A commentary on the work of Burke et al. nicknamed hinokitiol the “Iron Man molecule”.<ref>https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/h/hinokitiol.html </ref> This is fitting/ironic because discoverer Nozoe’s first name can be translated into English as “iron man”.<ref>https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/h/hinokitiol.html </ref> <br /> <br /> Significant research has also been conducted into the oral applications of Hinokitiol, given the increased demand for Hinokitiol based oral products. One such study, affiliated with eight different institutions in Japan, titled: “Antibacterial Activity of Hinokitiol Against Both Antibiotic-Resistant and -Susceptible Pathogenic Bacteria That Predominate in the Oral Cavity and Upper Airways” concluded that “hinokitiol demonstrates antibacterial activity against a broad spectrum of pathogenic bacteria and has low cytotoxicity towards human epithelial cells.” [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1348-0421.12688]<br /> [[Category:Dietary Supplements]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Zinc_%26_Hinokitiol_Synergism&diff=1672803 Zinc & Hinokitiol Synergism 2020-07-30T17:24:08Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[Hinokitiol]] is one of the [[Zinc Ionophores]], which means they can attach themselves to Zinc molecules and transport them across the cell membranes hence increasing the intracellular zinc concentrations; therefore many studies revealed this capability has the potential to inhibit viral replication. The advantage of Zinc’s antiviral properties can be accelerated by using it in combination with Hinokitiol.[https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/ionophores]<br /> <br /> '''Zinc Inhibits Viral Replication'''<br /> <br /> According to a recent article on Nutritional Immunology, Zinc ionophore such as hinokitiol hindered the RNA synthesis by inhibiting the RNA dependent polymerase in picornavirus, poliovirus, and influenza. [https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01712/full [2<nowiki>]</nowiki>]<br /> [[Category:Dietary Supplements]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheism_and_emotional_problems&diff=1672654 Atheism and emotional problems 2020-07-30T04:23:46Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheism and difficulties with grief */</p> <hr /> <div>[[File:Angry atheist.jpg|thumbnail|right|230px|An angry atheist speaking to a woman with a Bible in her hand.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The Christian philosopher James S. Spiegel says the path from Christianity to atheism among several of his friends involved moral slippage such as resentment or unforgiveness.<ref>[http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-philosopher-explores-causes-of-atheism-44353/ Christian Philosopher Explores Causes of Atheism]</ref> See: [[Atheism and anger]] ]]<br /> [[Emotional intelligence]] "refers to the ability to perceive, control and evaluate emotions."<ref>[http://psychology.about.com/od/personalitydevelopment/a/emotionalintell.htm Emotional intelligence]</ref> Research indicates that religiosity is positively associated with ability in emotional intelligence.<ref>[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10943-016-0335-3 Divine Emotions: On the Link Between Emotional Intelligence and Religious Belief], ''Journal of Religion and Health'', December 2017, Volume 56, Issue 6, pp 1998–2009</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4733549/ THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE WITH RELIGIOUS COPING AND GENERAL HEALTH OF STUDENTS] by Masoumeh Bagheri Nesami, Amir Hossein Goudarzian, Houman Zarei, Pedram Esameili, Milad Dehghan Pour, and Hesam Mirani, ''Materia Sociomedica''. 2015 Dec; 27(6): 412–416. doi: 10.5455/msm.2015.27.412-416</ref><ref>[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222857921_Religiosity_and_perceived_emotional_intelligence_among_Christians Religiosity and perceived emotional intelligence among Christians], Personality and Individual Differences 41(3):479-490 · August 2006, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2006.01.016</ref><br /> <br /> The five components of emotional intelligence are: self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy, and social skills.<br /> <br /> Below is material on '''atheism and emotional problems'''.<br /> <br /> == "Emotional atheism": Atheism related to traumatic events ==<br /> <br /> Various studies found that traumatic events in people's lives has a positive correlation with "emotional atheism".<ref>[http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2011/01/when-atheists-are-angry-at-god When atheists are angry at God] by Joe Carter at FirstThings.com website</ref> See also: [[Atheism and the Problem of Evil|Atheism and the problem of evil]]<br /> <br /> == Emotional reactions of atheists may reveal echoes of belief == <br /> [[File:Cornelius Van Til.jpg|thumb|155px|right|Dr. [[Cornelius Van Til]] maintained [[Denials that atheists exist|that atheists do not exist]].]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Denials that atheists exist]] and [[Atheists doubting the validity of atheism]]<br /> <br /> ''The Pacific Standard'' reported:<br /> {{Cquote|A [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10508619.2013.771991 recently published study] from Finland finds that even atheists have a hard time asking God to harm their loved ones.<br /> <br /> The heads and hearts of atheists may not be on precisely the same page. That’s the implication of recently published research from Finland, which finds avowed non-believers become emotionally aroused when daring God to do terrible things.<br /> <br /> “The results imply that atheists’ attitudes toward God are ambivalent, in that their explicit beliefs conflict with their affective response,” concludes a research team led by University of Helsinki psychologist Marjaana Lindeman. Its study is published in the International Journal for the Psychology of Religion.<ref>[https://psmag.com/social-justice/emotional-reactions-of-atheists-reveal-echoes-of-belief-56395 EMOTIONAL REACTIONS OF ATHEISTS MAY REVEAL ECHOES OF BELIEF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and anger ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and anger]]<br /> <br /> [[CNN]] reports:<br /> {{cquote|People unaffiliated with organized religion, [[Atheism|atheists]] and [[Agnosticism|agnostics]] also report anger toward God either in the past, or anger focused on a hypothetical image - that is, what they imagined God might be like - said lead study author Julie Exline, Case Western Reserve University psychologist.<br /> <br /> In studies on college students, atheists and agnostics reported more anger at God during their lifetimes than believers.<ref>[http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/ Anger at God common, even among atheists]</ref>}}<br /> [[File:Greta Christina at Skepticon.jpg|thumbnail|250px|left|[[Greta Christina]] in 2014.]]<br /> The atheist, [[lesbianism|lesbian]] and [[leftism|leftist]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement".<ref>[http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ Greta Christina - Why Are You Atheists So Angry?]</ref><br /> <br /> The American philosopher and atheism advocate Peter Boghossian declared about atheists: “I think the faithful have been propagating a narrative of the angry atheist for so long, and I think that there’s some legitimacy to that... I think it’s really important to have civil, respectful dialogue with people, and we just haven’t been doing that...".<ref>[https://theringer.com/atheist-apps-atheos-bb79c85d3b37#.sql14yams The Appostates] by Kate Knibbs, ''The Ringer''</ref><br /> <br /> The [[agnosticism|agnostic]] Rodney Stark, co-director of [[Baylor University]]’s Institute for Studies of Religion, commenting on the [[New Atheism]] movement said, “The religious people don’t care about the irreligious people, but the irreligious are prickly. I think they’re just angry.”<ref>[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/19/half-of-americans-believe-in-angels/ Half of Americans believe in angels], Washington Times</ref> <br /> <br /> [[Vox Day|Theodore Beale]] declared:"...the [[Atheism and immaturity|age at which most people become atheists]] indicates that it is almost never an intellectual decision, but an emotional one."<ref>[http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/answering-atheists-question.html Answering an atheist's question]</ref><br /> <br /> The [[Christian apologetics|Christian apologist]] [[True Free Thinker|Ken Ammi]] concurs in his essay ''The Argument for Atheism from Immaturity'' and writes: "It is widely known that some atheists rejected [[God]] in their childhood, based on child like reasons, have not matured beyond these childish notions and thus, maintain childish-emotional reactions toward the idea of God."<ref>[http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/argument-atheism-immaturity]</ref><br /> <br /> Historically speaking, atheists have been the biggest mass murders in history (see: [[Atheism and mass murder]] and [[Abortion and atheism]]).<br /> <br /> === Atheism and hatred of God ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and hatred of God]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Ray Comfort Promo Picture.jpg|right|thumbnail|200px|The Christian evangelist [[Ray Comfort]] contends that atheists hate God because they know that He does exist.<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/2009/02/87777/ Evangelist: Atheists know they are wrong]</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> Comfort declared in 2009: "Atheists don't hate fairies, leprauchans or unicorns because they don't exist. It is impossible to hate something that doesn't exist. And that makes the point."<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/2009/02/87777/ Evangelist: Atheists know they are wrong]</ref>]]<br /> [[Theophobia]] is a "morbid fear or hatred of God".<ref>[https://www.thefreedictionary.com/theophobia Theophobia], Freedictionary.com</ref><br /> <br /> Don Batten of [[Creation Ministries International]] wrote:<br /> {{cquote|Recently, I have had a lot of conversations with atheists. Many express a strong hatred of God. I have been at a loss to explain this. How can you hate someone you don’t believe in? Why the hostility? If God does not exist, shouldn’t atheists just relax and seek a good time before they become plant food? Why should it matter if people believe in God? Nothing matters if atheism is true<ref>[https://creation.com/atheist-god-hate Atheists hate God]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The Christian evangelist [[Ray Comfort]] contends that atheists hate God because they know that He does exist.<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/2009/02/87777/ Evangelist: Atheists know they are wrong]</ref> Comfort declared in 2009: "Atheists don't hate fairies, leprauchans or unicorns because they don't exist. It is impossible to hate something that doesn't exist. And that makes the point."<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/2009/02/87777/ Evangelist: Atheists know they are wrong]</ref><br /> <br /> Jennifer LeClaire, a news editor at ''Charisma News'' wrote:<br /> {{cquote|Atheists don’t believe God exists, so why do they get so angry when Christians call them out for it?... <br /> <br /> Atheism is rooted in an antichrist spirit that has made man his own God. Atheists have separated themselves from God in this life, yet He still blesses them with an opportunity to repent every day. In the next life—eternal life—atheists won’t be so brazen about insisting God doesn’t exist because they will bow their knee to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:10; Rom. 14:11) before spending forever apart from His presence in the lake of fire. Calling Christians nasty names and insulting God isn’t going to change that or stop Christians from sharing their faith.<br /> <br /> I would challenge every atheist who is reading this article to truly seek God with an open mind. I guarantee if you open your heart, ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and seek Him sincerely, you will find Him.<ref>[Why Do Atheists Get So Angry When Christians Talk About Their Unbelief?] by Jennifer LeClaire, Charisma News, 12:30PM EST 11/22/2013</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and loneliness ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> According to an international study done by William Bainbridge, atheism is common among people whose interpersonal social obligations are weak and is also connected to lower fertility rates in advanced industrial nations (See also: [[Atheism and fertility rates]]).<ref> Bainbridge, William (2005). "[http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf Atheism]" (PDF). Interdisciplinary Journal of Research on Religion. 1 (Article 2): 1–26.</ref><br /> <br /> Concerning [[atheism and depression]], a University of Michigan study involving 19,775 individuals found that religious people are less likely than atheists to suffer [[depression]] when they are lonely.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6136603/Lonely-religious-people-depressed-God-friend.html Lonely religious people are less depressed than atheists because they see God as a friend replacement, study finds], ''Daily Mail'', 2018</ref> See also: [[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism and depression ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and depression]]<br /> <br /> [[Image:Desperation_man.jpg‎ |thumb|225px|right|Atheists have a higher suicide rate than [[theism|theists]].<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html Adherents.com - suicide rates]</ref> Please see: [[Atheism and suicide]] ]] <br /> Concerning [[atheism and depression]], a University of Michigan study involving 19,775 individuals found that [[religion|religious]] people are less likely than [[atheism|atheists]] to suffer [[depression]] when they are lonely.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6136603/Lonely-religious-people-depressed-God-friend.html Lonely religious people are less depressed than atheists because they see God as a friend replacement, study finds], ''Daily Mail'', 2018</ref> See also: [[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> <br /> ''The Telegraph'' reported: "Patients with a strong “intrinsic faith” (a deep personal belief, not just a social inclination to go to a place of worship) recover 70 per cent faster from depression than those who are not deeply religious."<ref>[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10914137/What-God-does-to-your-brain.html What God does to your brain] by Julia Llewellyn Smith. ''The Telegraph'', 20 Jun 2014</ref><br /> <br /> In addition, in many atheistic cultures in the developed world, there are considerable problems with loneliness (see: [[Atheism and loneliness]]). Furthermore, many atheists feel isolated within theistic cultures (see: [[Atheism and social outcasts]]). <br /> <br /> In December 2003, the University of Warwick reported: "Dr. Stephen Joseph, from the University of Warwick, said: "Religious people seem to have a greater purpose in life, which is why they are happier. Looking at the research evidence, it seems that those who celebrate the Christian meaning of [[Christmas]] are on the whole likely to be happier."<ref>http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20037338.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> See also: [[Atheism and happiness]] and [[Atheism and Christmas]]<br /> <br /> === Atheism and suicide ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> [[File:Loneliness depression.jpg|thumb|left|200px|[[Atheism|Atheists]] have higher suicide rates than [[theism|theists]]. See: [[Atheism and suicide]] ]] <br /> The website Adherents.com reported concerning [[atheism and suicide]]:<br /> {{cquote|Pitzer College sociologist Phil Zuckerman compiled country-by-country survey, polling and census numbers relating to [[atheism]], [[agnosticism]], disbelief in God and people who state they are non-religious or have no religious preference. These data were published in the chapter titled "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns" in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by [[Michael Martin]], [[Cambridge University]] Press: Cambridge, UK (2005). In examining various indicators of societal health, Zuckerman concludes about [[suicide]]:<br /> <br /> "Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than [[Global atheism|secular nations]]. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. It is interesting to note, however, that of the top remaining nine nations leading the world in male suicide rates, all are former [[Soviet Union|Soviet]]/[[Communism|Communist]] nations, such as Belarus, Ukraine, and Latvia. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."<ref>http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and fear ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and anxiety]]<br /> === Atheism and death anxiety ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and death]] and [[Atheism and death anxiety]] and [[Atheism and cowardice]]<br /> <br /> ==== Wink and Scott study: Irreligious and death anxiety ====<br /> <br /> According to the researchers Wink and Scott, the irreligious fear death more than the very religious, but fear it less than the lukewarm/moderately religious.<ref>[http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/050628_deathfearfrm.htm Fear of death: worst if you’re a little religious?], World of Science]</ref><br /> <br /> ==== Death anxiety increases atheists unconscious belief in God ====<br /> <br /> On April 2, 2012, ''Science Daily'' reported that ''Death anxiety increases atheists' unconscious belief in God''.<ref>[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120402094322.htm Death anxiety increases atheists' unconscious belief in God], Science Daily], Date: April 2, 2012</ref> In a 2012 ''Psychology Today'' article, Dr. Nathan A. Heflick reported similar results in other studies.<ref>[http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201205/atheists-death-and-belief-in-god Atheists, Death and Belief in God The Effects of Death Reminders on Atheists' Supernatural Beliefs], ''Psychology Today'', Published on May 25, 2012 by Nathan A. Heflick, Ph.D. in The Big Questions</ref> <br /> <br /> (Under stress, the brain's processing works in a way that prefers unconscious thinking.<ref><br /> *[http://aktuell.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/pm2012/pm00263.html.en Brain processing under stress], Ruhr-University BochumPress release<br /> *[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/31/learn-under-stress-brain_n_3678222.html How The Brain Learns Successfully, Even Under Stress], ''The Huffington Post'' By Carolyn Gregoire, Posted: 07/31/2013 1:00 pm EDT Updated: 07/31/2013 1:14 pm EDT</ref>) See also: [[Atheism and the brain]]<br /> <br /> For more information on death anxiety in atheists and other types of individuals based on brain research studies (including studies that examined the effects of stress), please see the article: [[Atheism and death]]<br /> === Brain study: Religious belief vs. non-belief - Anxiety/stress reduction ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and the brain]] and [[Atheism and brain function]]<br /> [[File:Human brain.png|right|thumb|200px|Brain researchers have conducted a number of studies focusing on the differences between atheists and the religious. See: [[Atheism and the brain]] ]]<br /> According to the leading science news website Phys.org:<br /> {{cquote|Believing in God can help block anxiety and minimize stress, according to new University of Toronto research that shows distinct brain differences between believers and non-believers.<br /> <br /> In two studies led by Assistant Psychology Professor Michael Inzlicht, participants performed a Stroop task - a well-known test of cognitive control - while hooked up to electrodes that measured their brain activity.<br /> <br /> Compared to non-believers, the religious participants showed significantly less activity in the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC), a portion of the brain that helps modify behavior by signaling when attention and control are needed, usually as a result of some anxiety-producing event like making a mistake. The stronger their religious zeal and the more they believed in God, the less their ACC fired in response to their own errors, and the fewer errors they made...<br /> <br /> Their findings show religious belief has a calming effect on its devotees, which makes them less likely to feel anxious about making errors or facing the unknown.<ref>[http://phys.org/news/2009-03-brain-differences-believers-non-believers.html Researchers find brain differences between believers and non-believers], Phys.org, March 4, 2009</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Athesm and cowardice ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and cowardice]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism and apathy ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and apathy]] and [[Atheism and motivation]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Cerebellum.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Brain researchers have conducted a number of studies focusing on the differences between [[Atheism|atheists]] and the religious. See: [[Atheism and the brain]] ]]<br /> According to ''Scientific American'': "Research also suggests that a religious brain exhibits higher levels of [[dopamine]], a hormone associated with increased attention and [[motivation]]."<ref>[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/askthebrains/ Ask the Brains, Scientific American, Dec 23, 2011]</ref> See also: [[Atheism and motivation]] and [[Atheism and the brain]] and [[Atheism and inspiration]]<br /> <br /> Atheist Francois Tremblay wrote: "One last problem that undermines any propagation of [[atheism]] is inspiration. Let's be honest here, 'there is no god!' is not a very motivating call for most people."<ref>[http://www.liberator.net/articles/TremblayFrancois/herdingcats.html ''Herding Cats: Why atheism will lose''] by Francois Tremblay</ref><br /> <br /> Widespread sloth in the former [[Soviet Union]] helped cause much poverty.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255693/Last-pictures-life-iron-curtain-collapse-USSR.html Poverty, prostitutes and the long, slow death of the Soviet Union: Haunting pictures show desperate struggle to survive in last days of USSR, ''The Daily Mail'']</ref><ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/29/world/soviet-openness-brings-poverty-out-of-the-shadows.html?_r=0 Soviet Openness Brings Poverty Out of the Shadows], ''New York Times''</ref> A study performed in the former Soviet Union found that over 50% of the work force admitted to drinking alcohol while on the job (See also: [[Atheism and alcoholism]]).<ref>[http://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/communism-computing-china/workethic.html Communism and computer ethics]</ref> In the former Soviet Union, a popular joke was that the workers pretended to work and the Soviet Union pretended to pay them.<ref>[http://ipezone.blogspot.com/2015/08/you-pretend-to-work-putin-pretends-to.html You Pretend to work and Putin pretends to pay you]</ref> See also: [[Atheism and sloth]]<br /> <br /> == Study: Psychological research links atheism to emotional suppression ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.psypost.org/2020/07/new-psychological-research-links-atheism-to-emotional-suppression-57490 Study: psychological research links atheism to emotional suppression]<br /> <br /> == Atheism and difficulties with grief ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and grief]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Atheism and death.jpg|thumbnail|200px|left|According to a study performed in the United States by researchers Wink and Scott, very religious people fear death the least.<ref>[http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/050628_deathfearfrm.htm Fear of death: worst if you’re a little religious?], World of Science]<br /> *J Gerontol B Psychol Sci Soc Sci. 2005, Jul;60(4):P207-14. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15980288 Does religiousness buffer against the fear of death and dying in late adulthood? Findings from a longitudinal study]. Wink P1, Scott J.</ref> See also: [[Atheism and death]] ]]<br /> ''USA Today'' reported about [[atheism and grief]]:<br /> {{Cquote|When Rebecca Hensler's infant son died in 2009, she received numerous condolences from friends, colleagues and even total strangers she met online.<br /> <br /> Rebecca Hensler started a support group for grieving [[Atheism|atheists]] to help them deal with loss and death without religion.<br /> <br /> Rebecca Hensler started a support group for grieving atheists to help them deal with loss and death without religion.<br /> <br /> Rebecca Hensler started a support group for grieving atheists to help them deal with loss and death without religion.<br /> <br /> She knew their intentions were good, but their words weren't always helpful. And in the rawness of her grief, Hensler found some of them downright hurtful.<br /> <br /> Hensler is an atheist, so when people described her three-month-old son Jude as being an angel, or part of God's plan, or "in a better place" than in his mother's arms, the pain sometimes overwhelmed her.<ref>[http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-02-17/grief-mourning-religion-god-atheists/53136258/1 Grief without God is a challenge for nonbelievers]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and envy ==<br /> [[File:John C Wright.jpg|thumbnail|right|175px|The [[ex-atheists|ex-atheist]] [[John C. Wright (author)|John C. Wright]] wrote "[[Leftism]] is politicized [[envy]]."<ref>[http://www.scifiwright.com/2014/12/atheist-coffee-and-feminist-envy/ Atheist Coffee and Feminist Envy] by John C. Wright</ref>]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and envy]]<br /> <br /> [[Envy]] is the [[sin]] of wanting (or coveting) what other people have, or more precisely resentment or bitterness over what other people have. This can include possessions, power, social standing, or even things that the envious person could not possibly gain for himself, such as talent or looks.<br /> <br /> Politically, atheists tend to lean towards the [[leftism|left]] (see: [[Secular left]] and [[Atheism and politics]]). According to the [[University of Cambridge]], historically, the "most notable spread of atheism was achieved through the success of the 1917 [[Russian Revolution]], which brought the [[Marxism-Leninism|Marxist-Leninists]] to power."<ref name="Marxism-Leninsim">{{cite web|url = http://www.investigatingatheism.info/marxism.html|title =Marxism|publisher = [[University of Cambridge]]|quote=The most notable spread of atheism was achieved through the success of the 1917 Russian Revolution, which brought the Marxist-Leninists to power. For the first time in history, atheism thus became the official ideology of a state.|year=2008|accessdate = 2011–03–15}}</ref> See also: [[Atheism and communism]]<br /> <br /> Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr. wrote at the ''[[Mises Institute|Mises Wire]]'':<br /> {{Cquote|Uniformity is stressed in all leftist [[utopia]]s, paradises in which everybody is the same, envy is dead, and the enemy is either dead, lives outside the gates, or is utterly humiliated. Leftism loathes differences, deviations, stratifications. ... The word “one” is its symbol: one language, one race, one class, one ideology, one ritual, one type of school, one law for everybody, one flag, one coat of arms, one centralized world state.<ref>[https://mises.org/wire/unique-evil-left The Unique Evil of the Left] by Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr., Mises Wire/Mises Institute</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism and negative emotions ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and negative emotions/thoughts]]<br /> <br /> To see relevant studies and historical data about the [[Atheism|atheist]] population's highly unusual propensity to display negative emotions such as depression, anger, anxiety and boredom, please see:<br /> <br /> '''1.''' [[Atheism and depression]] (Cites relevant studies about atheism increasing depression)<br /> [[Image:Cycle.gif|thumbnail|200px|right|Research suggests that irreligiousity is a causal factor for domestic violence.<ref>doi: 10.1177/1077801207308259 [http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/13/11/1094.abstract ''Violence Against Women'', ''Race/Ethnicity, Religious Involvement, and Domestic Violence'',] November 2007 vol. 13 no. 11 1094-1112</ref> See: [[Irreligion and domestic violence]] and [[Secular Europe and domestic violence]] ]]<br /> <br /> <br /> '''2.''' [[Atheism and suicide]] (Atheists have a higher suicide rate than the general public)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''3.''' [[Atheism and loneliness]] (Cites studies and other relevant data)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''4.''' [[Atheism and anger|Militant atheism and anger]] (Studies and historical information about atheism and anger)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''5.''' [[Irreligion and domestic violence]] and [[Secular Europe and domestic violence]] (Research indicates that religiosity lowers one's propensity to engage in domestic violence)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''6.''' [[Militant atheism]] (Historical information about atheism/violence/intolerance)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''7.''' [[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence|Atheism and emotional intelligence]] (Cites relevant studies about atheists having lower [[emotional intelligence]]). See also: [[Atheism and alcoholism]]<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''8.''' [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] (Cites relevant studies and historical data showing lower interpersonal skills within the atheist population)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''9.'''Atheists suffer from a variety of anxieties that often the religiously devout do not suffer from or rarely suffer from (see: [[Atheism and anxiety]]).<br /> <br /> <br /> '''10.''' [[Atheism and death|Atheism and death anxiety]] (Cites relevant studies and historical data related to atheism/death anxiety and related matters)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''11.''' [[Atheism and meaninglessness|Atheism and feelings of meaninglessness]] (Cites relevant information from studies and history)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> '''12.''' [[Atheism and irrationality]] (Cites studies on irreligion/irrationality/superstitious beliefs and other relevant information)<br /> <br /> == Atheism and mental toughness ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and mental toughness]]<br /> <br /> == Mayo Clinic, university studies, and other research ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and health]] and [[Atheism and mental illness]]<br /> [[Image:Mayo-clinic-gondaoverview.jpg|thumb|right|200px|The prestigious [[Mayo Clinic]] found that that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better physical health, mental health, health-related quality of life and other health outcomes.<ref>https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)62799-7/abstract</ref>]]<br /> The prestigious [[Mayo Clinic]] reported the following on December 11, 2001:<br /> {{cquote|In an article also published in this issue of Mayo Clinic Proceedings, Mayo Clinic researchers reviewed published studies, meta-analyses, systematic reviews and subject reviews that examined the association between religious involvement and spirituality and physical health, mental health, health-related quality of life and other health outcomes.<br /> <br /> The authors report a majority of the nearly 350 studies of physical health and 850 studies of mental health that have used religious and spiritual variables have found that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes.<ref>https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)62799-7/abstract</ref>}} <br /> <br /> [[Duke University]] has established the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health.<ref>http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/</ref> The Duke University Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health is based in the Center for Aging at Duke and gives opportunities for scholarly trans-disciplinary conversation and the development of collaborative research projects.<ref>http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/about/</ref> In respect to the atheism and mental and physical health, the center offers many studies which suggest that theism is more beneficial than atheism.<ref>http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/publications/latest.html</ref><br /> <br /> == Rationalwiki administrator and anger ==<br /> <br /> [[File:Rationalwiki editor 5-24-2020.png|thumbnail|800px|center|RationalWiki is a [[wiki]] primarily consisting of atheists/[[agnosticism|agnostics]].<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> As can be seen above, on 5-24-2020, the RationalWiki administrator Oxyaena wrote: "it's just that i am probably raging too much most of the time to form coherent sentences." The statement was made on their Discord channel (Discord is a chat website). See also: [[Atheism and irrationality]] ]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence]]<br /> *[[Atheism and empathy]]<br /> *[[Psychology of atheism]]<br /> *[[Atheism and mental illness]]<br /> *[[Atheism and health]]<br /> *[[Secular leftists and psychogenic illness]]<br /> *[[Atheists and unreasonableness]]<br /> <br /> == Notes ==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Atheism]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheism_and_emotional/intrapersonal_intelligence&diff=1672653 Atheism and emotional/intrapersonal intelligence 2020-07-30T04:22:20Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Emotional/intrapersonal intelligence, atheist parents and academic performance */</p> <hr /> <div>[[File:Sadness.jpg|thumb|right|225px|[[Atheism|Atheists]] have higher suicide rates than the religious.<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html Religious Affiliation, Atheism and Suicide]</ref> See: [[Atheism and suicide]] ]] <br /> [[Howard Gardner]] at [[Harvard University]] has identified various distinct intelligences: interpersonal, intrapersonal, visual–spatial, verbal–linguistic, logical–mathematical, musical–rhythmic, bodily–kinesthetic, and naturalistic.<ref>[http://www.tecweb.org/styles/gardner.html Multiple Ingelligence]</ref> See: [[Theory of multiple intelligences]] and [[Atheism and the theory of multiple intelligences]]<br /> <br /> [[Emotional intelligence]] "refers to the ability to perceive, control and evaluate emotions."<ref>[http://psychology.about.com/od/personalitydevelopment/a/emotionalintell.htm Emotional intelligence]</ref> Research indicates that religiosity is positively associated with ability in emotional intelligence.<ref>[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10943-016-0335-3 Divine Emotions: On the Link Between Emotional Intelligence and Religious Belief], ''Journal of Religion and Health'', December 2017, Volume 56, Issue 6, pp 1998–2009</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4733549/ THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE WITH RELIGIOUS COPING AND GENERAL HEALTH OF STUDENTS] by Masoumeh Bagheri Nesami, Amir Hossein Goudarzian, Houman Zarei, Pedram Esameili, Milad Dehghan Pour, and Hesam Mirani, ''Materia Sociomedica''. 2015 Dec; 27(6): 412–416. doi: 10.5455/msm.2015.27.412-416</ref><ref>[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222857921_Religiosity_and_perceived_emotional_intelligence_among_Christians Religiosity and perceived emotional intelligence among Christians], Personality and Individual Differences 41(3):479-490 · August 2006, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2006.01.016</ref> See also: [[Atheism and emotional problems]]<br /> <br /> In terms of emotional/intrapersonal intelligence, [[Atheism|atheists]] have higher suicide/depression rates than theists (see: [[Atheism and suicide]] and [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and alcoholism]]).<br /> <br /> Atheists have a higher rate of having various emotional problems (see: [[Atheism and emotional problems]]).<br /> <br /> In the journal article ''Religion, self-regulation, and self-control: Associations, explanations, and implications'', psychologists McCullough and Willoughby theorize that many of the positive links of religiousness with health and social behavior may be caused by religion's beneficial influences on [[self-control]]/self-regulation.<ref>[http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/Relig_self_control_bulletin.pdf Religion, Self-Regulation, and Self-Control: Associations, Explanations, and Implications]</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19210054 Religion, Self-Regulation, and Self-Control: Associations, Explanations, and Implications]</ref> Furthermore, a 2012 Queen's University study published in ''Psychological Science'' found that religion replenishes self-control.<ref>[http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/05/02/0956797611431987.abstract ''Religion Replenishes Self-Control'', ''Psychological Science'', June 2012 vol. 23 no. 6 635-642, Kevin Rounding, Albert Lee, Jill A. Jacobson and Li-Jun Ji at Queen’s University]</ref><ref>[http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-01/qu-qsf012412.php Study finds religion helps us gain self-control]</ref> Also, numerous studies indicate that those who engage in regular spiritual practices have lower mortality rates.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10868765 Religious involvement and mortality: a meta-analytic review. McCullough ME, Hoyt WT, Larson DB, Koenig HG, Thoresen C., Health Psychol. 2000 May;19(3):211-22.]</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305900/ ''The role of spirituality in health care'', roc (Bayl Univ Med Cent). 2001 October; 14(4): 352–357.]</ref> See also: [[Atheism and hedonism]] and [[Atheism and health]]<br /> <br /> There are preliminary studies indicating that individuals who reject [[Christianity]] in Western cultures have lower self-esteem than the Christian population.<ref>http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/rejection-of-christianity-and-self.html</ref><ref>http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/atheists-and-self-esteem-part-2.html</ref> There are studies indicating that lower self-esteem is associated with suicidality.<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21190929</ref><ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><br /> <br /> Various studies found that traumatic events in people's lives has a positive correlation with "emotional atheism".<ref>[http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2011/01/when-atheists-are-angry-at-god When atheists are angry at God] by Joe Carter at FirstThings.com website</ref> See also: [[Atheism and the Problem of Evil|Atheism and the problem of evil]]<br /> <br /> == Atheist Eddie Tabash on atheist cantankerousness ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]<br /> <br /> The [[American atheism|American, atheist]] activist [[Eddie Tabash]] said in a speech to the Michigan Atheists State Convention, "Since we are a bit of a cantankerous, opinionated lot...".<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ld9Rfw5HUs Atheists Speak Up - Eddie Tabash - Part 2 of 4]</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism and anger ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and anger]] and [[Atheism and bitterness]] and [[Militant atheism, alcoholism and anger]]<br /> [[File:Angry atheist.jpg|thumbnail|left|200px|An angry atheist speaking to a woman with a Bible in her hand.<br /> The Christian philosopher James S. Spiegel says the path from Christianity to atheism among several of his friends involved moral slippage such as resentment or unforgiveness.<ref>[http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-philosopher-explores-causes-of-atheism-44353/ Christian Philosopher Explores Causes of Atheism]</ref> See: [[Atheism and forgiveness|Atheism and unforgiveness]] ]]<br /> On January 1, 2011, [[CNN]] reported:<br /> {{cquote|People unaffiliated with organized religion, [[Atheism|atheists]] and [[Agnosticism|agnostics]] also report anger toward God either in the past, or anger focused on a hypothetical image - that is, what they imagined God might be like - said lead study author Julie Exline, Case Western Reserve University psychologist.<br /> <br /> In studies on college students, atheists and agnostics reported more anger at God during their lifetimes than believers.<ref>[http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/ Anger at God common, even among atheists]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Various studies found that traumatic events in people's lives has a positive correlation with "emotional atheism".<ref>[http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2011/01/when-atheists-are-angry-at-god When atheists are angry at God] by Joe Carter at FirstThings.com website</ref><br /> <br /> The atheist and [[lesbianism|lesbian]] [[Greta Christina]] told the journalist Chris Mooney on the Point of Inquiry podcast, "there isn't one emotion" that affects atheists "but anger is one of the emotions that many of us have ...[it] drives others to participate in the movement".<ref>[http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greta_christina_why_are_you_atheists_so_angry/ Greta Christina - Why Are You Atheists So Angry?]</ref><br /> <br /> Although anti-theists, militant atheists and [[New Atheism|New Atheists]] give the general public the perception that atheists are exceedingly angry individuals, research indicates that the atheist population as a whole is not angrier than the general population (see: [[Various types of atheists/non-believers and anger]]). <br /> <br /> [[Jesus Christ]] and [[Christianity|Christendom]] have emphasized the important of forgiveness and in the last few decades mental health specialists have increasingly seen the importance of forgiveness to alleviate anger and other emotional problems within individuals.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755173/ Indian J Psychiatry. 2009 Apr-Jun; 51(2): 153–156. doi: 10.4103/0019-5545.49459, PMCID: PMC2755173, ''Forgiveness: A note for psychiatrists'' by Prakash Gangdev]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information please see: [[Atheism and anger]]<br /> <br /> === Militant atheism, alcoholism and anger ===<br /> [[File:04656 market in Sanok.JPG|thumbnail|200px|right|[[Alcoholism]] was a serious social problem in the former [[militant atheism|militantly atheistic]] [[Soviet Union]].<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245818</ref>]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Militant atheism, alcoholism and anger]]<br /> <br /> The [[Barna Group]] found that [[atheism|atheists]] and [[agnostics]] in America were more likely, than [[theist]]s in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: illegal drug use; '''excessive drinking;''' sexual relationships outside of marriage; [[abortion]]; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; obscene language; gambling; pornography and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in [[homosexuality]]/bisexuality.<ref>http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/58-practical-outcomes-replace-biblical-principles-as-the-moral-standard</ref><br /> <br /> Atheists and atheistic cultures often have significant problems with excess alcohol usage (For additional information please see: [[Atheism and alcoholism]]). <br /> <br /> Alcoholism had been linked to poor anger control both as a cause and effect of alcoholism.<ref>[<br /> *https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11377988 J Adolesc Health. 2001 Jun;28(6):450-7. From early to late adolescence: alcohol use and anger relationships. Weiner MD1, Pentz MA, Turner GE, Dwyer JH.]<br /> *[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20409438 J Stud Alcohol Drugs. 2010, May;71(3):434-44. Negative affect, relapse, and Alcoholics Anonymous (AA): does AA work by reducing anger? Kelly JF1, Stout RL, Tonigan JS, Magill M, Pagano ME.]<br /> *[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9660320 Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1998 Jun;22(4):902-7. Anger in an inpatient treatment sample of chronic alcoholics.Tivis LJ1, Parsons OA, Nixon SJ.]</ref><br /> <br /> For more information, please see: [[Militant atheism, alcoholism and anger]]<br /> <br /> == Mental health and irreligion/religion and other studies ==<br /> <br /> [[Image:Mayo-clinic-gondaoverview.jpg|thumb|left|200px|The prestigious [[Mayo Clinic]] found that that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better physical health, mental health, health-related quality of life and other health outcomes.<ref>http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/76/12/1225.full.pdf</ref>]]<br /> Concerning [[atheism and health]], there is considerable amount of scientific evidence that suggest that [[theism]] is more conducive to mental and physical health than [[atheism]] <ref><br /> *[https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)62799-7/abstract Religious Involvement, Spirituality, and Medicine: Implications for Clinical Practice - Mayo Clinic]<br /> *[http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/publications/latest.html Research on Spirituality, Theology and Health - Duke University]<br /> *[http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/rel_mort_meta.pdf McCullogh ME, Larson DB, Hoyt WT. et al. (2000). Religious involvement and mortality: a meta-analytic review. Health Psychology. 19, 3. 211-222]<br /> *[http://www.religiouspractice.ie/Religious_practice-2.pdf The psycho-social benefits of religious practice by Ona Institute]<br /> *[http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/Relig_self_control_bulletin.pdf Religion, Self-Regulation, and Self-Control: Associations, Explanations, and Implications]<br /> *[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/05/990517064323.htm Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity - Science Daily, 1999]<br /> *[http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303 Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt - The American Journal of Psychiatry]<br /> *[http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20037338.html Psychology researcher says spiritual meaning of Christmas brings more happiness than materialism - Scienceblog and University of Warwick]<br /> </ref> <br /> The prestigious [[Mayo Clinic]] reported the following on December 11, 2001:<br /> {{cquote|In an article also published in this issue of Mayo Clinic Proceedings, Mayo Clinic researchers reviewed published studies, meta-analyses, systematic reviews and subject reviews that examined the association between religious involvement and spirituality and physical health, mental health, health-related quality of life and other health outcomes.<br /> <br /> The authors report a majority of the nearly 350 studies of physical health and 850 studies of mental health that have used religious and spiritual variables have found that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes.<ref>[https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)62799-7/abstract Religious Involvement, Spirituality, and Medicine: Implications for Clinical Practice]</ref>}} <br /> <br /> The [[Iona Institute]] reported:<br /> {{cquote|A meta-analysis of all studies, both published and unpublished, relating to religious involvement and longevity was carried out in 2000. Forty-two studies were included, involving some 126,000 subjects. Active religious involvement increased the chance of living longer by some 29%, and participation in public religious practices, such as church attendance, increased the chance of living longer by 43%.<ref>[http://www.religiouspractice.ie/Religious_practice-2.pdf The psycho-social benefits of religious practice by Iona Institute]</ref><ref>[http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/rel_mort_meta.pdf McCullogh ME, Larson DB, Hoyt WT. et al. (2000). Religious involvement and mortality: a meta-analytic review. Health Psychology. 19, 3. 211-222]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In December 2003, the University of Warwick reported:<br /> {{cquote|Dr. Stephen Joseph, from the University of Warwick, said: "Religious people seem to have a greater purpose in life, which is why they are happier. Looking at the research evidence, it seems that those who celebrate the Christian meaning of [[Christmas]] are on the whole likely to be happier.<ref>[http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20037338.html Psychology researcher says spiritual meaning of Christmas brings more happiness than materialism - Scienceblog and University of Warwick]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Duke University]] has established the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health.<ref>http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/</ref> The Duke University Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health is based in the Center for Aging at Duke and gives opportunities for scholarly trans-disciplinary conversation and the development of collaborative research projects.<ref>http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/about/</ref> In respect to the atheism and mental and physical health, the center offers many studies which suggest that theism is more beneficial than atheism.<ref>[http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/publications/latest.html Research on Spirituality, Theology and Health - Duke University]</ref><br /> <br /> === Atheism and loneliness ===<br /> <br /> [[File:Flag of Denmark.png|right|200px|thumbnail|[[Denmark]] has the highest proportion of single-dwellers, at 24%.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22012957 ''Is Modern life making us more lonely''], BBC, 8 April 2013</ref>]]<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> Loneliness has been linked to numerous physical and mental health problems.<ref>[http://www.livescience.com/18800-loneliness-health-problems.html Why Loneliness Can Be Deadly] by Katherine Harmon, Live Science Contributor, March 02, 2012 02:24pm ET</ref><ref>[Number of severely lonely men over 50 set to rise to 1m in 15 years], The Guardian, Robert Booth,Sunday 12 October 2014 19.01 EDT</ref> See: [[Atheism and health]]<br /> <br /> Compared to religious cultures where an extended family and a sense of community prevails, secular countries [[Secular countries and loneliness|are often lonelier societies]]. In addition, numerous studies and other data indicate that atheists have lower [[emotional intelligence]] (see: Atheiam and emotional intelligence).<br /> <br /> For more information, please see:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Secular Europe and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[England and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheistic France and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheistic Germany and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Irreligious Australia and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheistic Sweden and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Irreligious Finland and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheistic China and loneliness]]<br /> <br /> ==== Indian anthropologist's commentary on lonelineness in atheistic Denmark ====<br /> [[File:Flag of India svg.png|thumbnail|left|200px|The [[India]]n anthropologist Prakash Reddy found Denmark to be a neat and tidy, cozy little society, stiff, rigid and seemingly full of practical, down-to-earth but lonely people, isolated from each other and lacking much sense of religion.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Compared to the teeming villages of India, a Danish hamlet seemed deserted and closed. To an Indian, accustomed to constant close contact in an extended family and community, Danish life was cold if not nonexistent.<ref>[http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-20/news/mn-5117_1_human-values India Anthropologist Finds Denmark Wanting : Research: He laments the loneliness and lack of human values in remote village and asks if prosperity can be achieved without such sacrifices], ''LA Times'' archives, June 20, 1993, CHRISTOPHER FOLLETT, REUTERS</ref>]]<br /> In 1993, ''Reuters'' reported:<br /> {{cquote|[[India]]n anthropologist Prakash Reddy has turned the tables on Western colleagues who put Third World cultures under the microscope.<br /> <br /> Reddy, of Sri Venkateswara University at Tirupati in the southern state of Andhra Pradesh, spent four months in the village of Hvilsager--population 104--on Denmark's Jutland peninsula.<br /> <br /> His study, published in book form in English under the title "Danes are like that!" expresses dismay at the loneliness he found and the hope that India would not have to pay the same price for prosperity.<br /> <br /> "The most fundamental question that should bother every social scientist in the East is: Is there no way of achieving development without sacrificing the human values and the way of life cherished by homo sapiens?" he asked....<br /> <br /> Reddy said he found a neat and tidy, cozy little society, stiff, rigid and seemingly full of practical, down-to-earth but lonely people, isolated from each other and lacking much sense of religion.<br /> <br /> Compared to the teeming villages of India, the Danish hamlet seemed deserted and closed. To an Indian, accustomed to constant close contact in an extended family and community, Danish life was cold if not nonexistent, Reddy said.<br /> <br /> "Coming from an Indian village, I was used to seeing people in the streets . . . but here in Denmark not a single soul was sighted and, except for the sound of a passing automobile, absolute silence prevailed," Reddy wrote.<ref>[http://articles.latimes.com/1993-06-20/news/mn-5117_1_human-values India Anthropologist Finds Denmark Wanting : Research: He laments the loneliness and lack of human values in remote village and asks if prosperity can be achieved without such sacrifices], LA Times archives, June 20, 1993|CHRISTOPHER FOLLETT | REUTERS</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Study: Psychological research links atheism to emotional suppression ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.psypost.org/2020/07/new-psychological-research-links-atheism-to-emotional-suppression-57490 Study: psychological research links atheism to emotional suppression]<br /> <br /> == Emotional/intrapersonal intelligence, atheist parents and academic performance ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and academic performance]] and [[Atheism and intelligence]]<br /> <br /> Parental involvement is positively correlated with student academic performance.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020099/ Parent involvement and student academic performance: A multiple mediational analysis]</ref><br /> <br /> [[Emotional intelligence|Emotional/intrapersonal intelligence]] is important in terms of human performance in the intellectual realm. For example, the social scientists Andrea L. Duckworth and Martin Seligman found that higher degrees of [[self-control|self-discipline]] better predict higher academic grades than IQ scores do among adolescents.<ref>[http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~duckwort/images/PsychologicalScienceDec2005.pdf Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ in Predicting Academic Performance of Adolescents], Andrea L. Duckworth and Martin Seligman, Positive Psychology Center, University of Pennsylvania</ref><br /> <br /> Atheists commonly have lower emotional intelligence and social intelligence as can be seen in the social science data, historical data and other data given in the articles given directly below:<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and depression]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social intelligence]] and [[Atheist factions]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and anger|Militant atheism and anger]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and arrogance]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and moral intelligence]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and charity|Atheism and uncharitableness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and Mass Murder|Atheism and mass murder]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and the theory of multiple intelligences]]<br /> <br /> == Prominent atheists and poor relationship with father/mother/parents ==<br /> <br /> The ''Cambridge Companion to Atheism'' which was edited by the atheist [[philosophy|philosopher]] [[Michael Martin]] declared:<br /> {{cquote|Continuity and discontinuity in any identity may be a function of interpersonal networks, especially involving intimate relations. Apostasy and conversion can both be seen as a rejection of parental identity and parental beliefs. It “might well be symptomatic of familial strain and dissociation... apostasy is to be viewed as a form of rebellion against parents” (Caplovitz and Sherrow, 1977:50).<ref>''The Cambridge Companion to Atheism'', edited by [[Michael Martin]], page 302, published in 2006</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2012, a [[Georgetown University]] study was published indicating that only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an [[Atheism|atheist]] household remain atheists as adults.<ref>http://www.christianpost.com/news/study-atheists-have-lowest-retention-rate-compared-to-religious-groups-78029/ Study: Atheists Have Lowest 'Retention Rate' Compared to Religious Groups</ref> See also: [[Atheism and its retention rate in individuals]] and [[Atheism and marriage]]<br /> <br /> [[Image:DrVitz.jpg|thumbnail|225px|right|[[Ex-atheists|Ex-atheist]] [[Paul Vitz]] ]]<br /> A troubled/non-existent relationship with a father is theorized to influence a person to become an atheist.<ref>http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth12.html</ref> Dr. [[Paul Vitz]] wrote a book entitled ''Faith of the Fatherless'' in which he points out that after studying the lives of more than a dozen leading atheists he found that a large majority of them had a father who was present but weak, present but abusive, or absent.<ref>Vitz, Paul, [http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt The Psychology of Atheism], September 24, 1997 (lecture notes taken by an audience member).</ref><ref>Anders, Kerby, [http://www.probe.org/content/view/36/91/ Atheists and Their Fathers] (Probe Ministries)</ref> Dr. Vitz also examined the lives of prominent theists who were contemporaneous to their atheist counterparts and from the same culture and in every instance these prominent theists had a good relationship with his father.<ref>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt</ref> Dr. Vitz has also stated other common factors he observed in the leading atheists he profiled: they were all intelligent and arrogant.<ref>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt</ref><br /> <br /> The book ''Atheist Persona: Causes and Consequences'' by John J. Pasquini, Th.D. indicates that many of the prominent atheists (and prominent [[practical atheism|practical atheists]]) who had dysfunctional/absent fathers that he lists in his book also had dysfunctional/absent mothers.<ref>Atheist Persona: Causes and Consequences by John J. Pasquini, 2014, University Press of America, page 3</ref> See also: [[Atheism and poor relationships with parents]] and [[Irreligion and domestic violence]]<br /> <br /> In 2012, a [[Georgetown University]] study was published indicating that only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an [[Atheism|atheist]] household remain atheists as adults.<ref>http://www.christianpost.com/news/study-atheists-have-lowest-retention-rate-compared-to-religious-groups-78029/ Study: Atheists Have Lowest 'Retention Rate' Compared to Religious Groups</ref> See also: [[Atheism and its retention rate in individuals]]<br /> <br /> The [[General Social Survey]] (GSS) data on atheism uses a broad [[definition of atheism]] which can include [[agnosticism|agnostics]].<ref>[http://www.patheos.com/blogs/blackwhiteandgray/2012/01/how-many-americans-are-atheists-fewer-than-you-might-think/ How Many Americans are Atheists? Fewer than You Might Think] by Bradley Wright, January 26, 2012</ref><br /> <br /> The abstract for journal article ''An Assessment of the Role of Early Parental Loss in the Adoption of Atheism or Irreligion'' by Frank L. Pasquale indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Early parental loss or trauma has been proposed by some as a significant factor in the adoption of atheist, non-theist, or irreligious worldviews. Relevant empirical data, however, have been limited, impressionistic, methodologically questionable, or limited to historically prominent figures. Survey data from the GSS and a study of affirmatively non-theistic and irreligious secular group affiliates in the U.S. do not provide evidence of disproportionately high rates of early parental loss among individuals who describe themselves as “atheist(ic)” or “anti-religious,” reject belief in God, or express strong anger about religion. Loss of a parent or other loved may play a role in turns toward, as well as away from, God and religion for some. There is also evidence of comparatively high rates of parental loss in the lives of historically prominent figures, both religious and non-religious. Present results, however, do not support the hypothesis that early loss is a disproportionately frequent experience in the lives of (“ordinary”) atheistic or irreligious people.<ref>[http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/157361210x533292 ''An Assessment of the Role of Early Parental Loss in the Adoption of Atheism or Irreligion''] by Frank L. Pasquale1</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Study: Nonreligious soldiers are less able to cope with traumatic combat experiences ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[There Are No Atheists In Foxholes|There are no atheists in foxholes]]<br /> [[File:Foxhole.jpg|thumb|right|220px|Reverend William T. Cummings is famous for declaring ''There are no atheists in foxholes''.<ref name="listserv">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0609D&L=ads-l&P=15696</ref>]]<br /> The abstract for the ''Journal of Religion and Health'' article entitled ''Religiosity as a Moderator of Self-Efficacy and Social Support in Predicting Traumatic Stress Among Combat Soldiers'' declares:<br /> {{Cquote|Based on a sample of 54 Israeli soldiers (51 % non-religious, 49 % religious) surveyed upon their return from combat, this study investigates the moderating role of religiosity as a factor that may strengthen cognitive processing tied to the belief in oneself to persevere (i.e., self-efficacy) after trauma and/or as a factor tied to enhanced external social support that religious individuals in particular may benefit from by their involvement in a religious community. Findings revealed (1) social support was tied to greater resilience within the general sample; (2) religious soldiers were less susceptible to traumatic stress than non-religious soldiers; and (3) religiosity moderated the relationship between self-efficacy and traumatic stress but not the relationship between social support and traumatic stress. Implications of findings are discussed.<ref>[http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10943-016-0187-x ''Religiosity as a Moderator of Self-Efficacy and Social Support in Predicting Traumatic Stress Among Combat Soldiers''], ''Journal of Religion and Health''</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Emotional reactions of atheists may reveal echoes of belief == <br /> [[File:Cornelius Van Til.jpg|thumb|175px|right|Dr. [[Cornelius Van Til]] maintained that atheists do not exist. See: [[Denials that atheists exist]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Denials that atheists exist]] and [[Atheists doubting the validity of atheism]]<br /> <br /> ''The Pacific Standard'' reported:<br /> {{Cquote|A [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10508619.2013.771991 recently published study] from Finland finds that even atheists have a hard time asking God to harm their loved ones.<br /> <br /> The heads and hearts of atheists may not be on precisely the same page. That’s the implication of recently published research from Finland, which finds avowed non-believers become emotionally aroused when daring God to do terrible things.<br /> <br /> “The results imply that atheists’ attitudes toward God are ambivalent, in that their explicit beliefs conflict with their affective response,” concludes a research team led by University of Helsinki psychologist Marjaana Lindeman. Its study is published in the International Journal for the Psychology of Religion.<ref>[https://psmag.com/social-justice/emotional-reactions-of-atheists-reveal-echoes-of-belief-56395 EMOTIONAL REACTIONS OF ATHEISTS MAY REVEAL ECHOES OF BELIEF]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and negative emotions/thoughts]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and happiness]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and intelligence]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and the theory of multiple intelligences]]<br /> <br /> *[[Theory of multiple intelligences]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and poor relationships with parents]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism, alcoholism and anger]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and immaturity]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/08/14/want-sustained-happiness-get-religion-study-suggests/ Want ‘sustained happiness’? Get religion, study suggests], ''Washington Post'', 2015<br /> <br /> == Notes ==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Psychology]]<br /> [[Category:Atheism]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheism_and_animal_abuse&diff=1671775 Atheism and animal abuse 2020-07-27T16:00:19Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:Chow chow.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|Each year thousands of [[dog]]s are stolen in [[China]] and as many as 20 million dogs are killed in China to satisfy the dog meat industry.<ref>[https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/stop-pet-dogs-stolen-for-meat/ The Chinese Government Must Stop Pet Dogs Being Stolen For Meat] by JERRY GADIANO, Unilad website</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> According to ''ABC News'', gruesome techniques are used in Chinese dog slaughterhouses.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjbWQAASPcs Chinese Dog Meat Festival | Undercover Cameras Reveal Brutality Chinese Dog Meat Festival | Undercover Cameras Reveal Brutality], ABC News, YouTube</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> [[China]] has the world's largest [[atheism|atheist]] population.<ref>*[http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)]*[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], ''Washington Post'' By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey May 23, 2013</ref> It also has [[state atheism]] (See: [[China and atheism]]).<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> Most atheists in the world are [[East Asia]]n (see: [[Asian atheism]]).<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> For more information, please see: [[Atheists and dog meat eating]] ]]<br /> Below are some articles related to '''Atheism and animal abuse''':<br /> <br /> *[[Atheists and dog meat eating]] (Dog meat slaughtering in countries with [[state atheism]] is known for its brutality.<ref>*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjbWQAASPcs Chinese Dog Meat Festival | Undercover Cameras Reveal Brutality Chinese Dog Meat Festival | Undercover Cameras Reveal Brutality], ABC News, YouTube<br /> *[https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/article/1644440/love-dog For the love of dog], ''South China Morning Post'', 2015<br /> *[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-robinson-mbe-drmedvet-hc/animal-welfare-debate-is-_b_7205164.html Animal Welfare Debate Is Alive and Well in Vietnam]. Huffington Post, 2015<br /> *[https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/700598/Kim-Jong-un-wants-North-Koreans-eat-dog-meat-stamina-food Now Kim Jong-un wants North Koreans to eat DOG for 'stamina food'], ''Express'', August 16, 2016</ref>)<br /> <br /> *[[Cat slaughtering practices in China]] ([[Communism|Communist]] China’s cat meat trade is notoriously brutal.<ref>[http://www.hsi.org/news/press_releases/2018/12/cats-saved-china-121118.html 375 cats saved from Chinese slaughterhouse after tip-off from heartbroken cat lover], Humane Society International website</ref><ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-29575/The-cat-meat-trade-China.html The cat meat trade in China], Daily Mail</ref>)<br /> <br /> *[[Cat meat trade in Vietnam]] (The cat meat trade in communist [[Vietnam]] is known for its barbarity.<ref>[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5818658/video-vietnam-cat-meat-market-pets-butchered/ DROWNED LIKE RATS Gruesome pictures show a cat meat market in Vietnam where terrified pets are caged, killed and cooked], The Sun, March 2018</ref><ref>[https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/932285/Cat-meat-market-vietnam-gruesome-photos-animal-cruelty-slaughter-drown-boiled-alive-photos ''Inside a sickening cat meat market: Photos reveal the horror of barbaric cat trade''], Express, 2018</ref>)<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and rodent eating#Eating of live mice in China|Eating of live mice in China]] (See: [[China and atheism]] and [[Asian atheism]])<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and bestiality]]<br /> <br /> *[[Irreligion and the treatment of horses]]<br /> <br /> *[[Dietary practices of atheists]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, psychopathy and animal abuse ==<br /> <br /> See also: [[Atheism, psychopathy and animal abuse]] and [[Atheism and psychopathy]]<br /> <br /> A [[psychopath]] is someone with an anti-social [[personality disorder]] characterized by [[violent]], [[perverted]] or immoral behavior often leading to [[criminal]]ity. Psychopaths have little or no concern for other people. Some psychopaths equate [[love]] with sexual arousal.<ref>{{cite book |title=Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us |author=Robert D. Hare |publisher=Guilford Press |place=New York and London |year=2011 |pages=52 |isbn=978-16062-35782 |url=https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1606235788}}</ref><br /> <br /> A 2016 study relating to atheism and psychopathy published in ''Plus One'' indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Similarly, a survey of 312 college students examining the relationship between Religious/Spiritual Well-Being (RSWB) and ‘dark triad’ personality traits found that “RSWB was confirmed to be negatively correlated with these negative aspects of personality, in particular with subclinical psychopathy.”<br /> <br /> ...moral concern is associated with a spiritual worldview.<ref>[http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989 Why Do You Believe in God? Relationships between Religious Belief, Analytic Thinking, Mentalizing and Moral Concern] by Anthony Ian Jack , Jared Parker Friedman, Richard Eleftherios Boyatzis, Scott Nolan Taylor, ''Plus One'', March 23, 2016</ref>}}<br /> <br /> According to the 2014 journal article ''Correlates of psychopathic personality traits in everyday life: results from a large community survey'' published in the journal ''Frontiers of Psychology'' lack of belief in [[God]] is positively associated with [[Psychopath|psychopathy]].<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4106400/ Correlates of psychopathic personality traits in everyday life: results from a large community survey] by Scott O. Lilienfeld, Robert D. Latzman, Ashley L. Watts, Sarah F. Smith, and Kevin Dutton, ''Frontiers of Psychology'', 2014</ref><br /> <br /> For additional information, please see: [[Atheism and psychopathy]]<br /> <br /> === Animal abuse and psychopathy ===<br /> <br /> Mark D. Griffiths Ph.D. wrote in ''Psychology Today'':<br /> {{Cquote|Studies carried out by Dr. Phillip Kavanagh and his colleagues have examined the relationship between the three Dark Triad personality traits and attitudes towards animal abuse and self-reported acts of animal cruelty. They found that the psychopathy trait is related to intentionally hurting or torturing animals, and was also a composite measure of all three Dark Triad traits.<ref>[The Psychology of Animal Torture] by Mark D. Griffiths Ph.D., ''Psychology Today'', Nov 23, 2016</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism, women and the animal rights movement ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism, women and the animal rights movement]]<br /> <br /> == Irreligion and the treatment of horses ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Irreligion and the treatment of horses]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Girl with a horse.jpg|thumbnail|center|200px|Although horses are seen as an intelligent animal by many and a useful partner in getting work accomplished in many areas around the world, there are irreligious countries that also see horses as a source of food.<ref>[https://brandongaille.com/20-horse-meat-consumption-statistics/ ''21 Intriguing Horse Meat Consumption Statistics'']</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> For more information, please see: [[Irreligion and the treatment of horses]] ]]<br /> <br /> === Irreligion and the consumption of horse meat ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Irreligion and the treatment of horses#Irreligion and the consumption of horse meat|Irreligion and the consumption of horse meat]]<br /> <br /> === Irreligious Britain, sexual mutilations of horses and stabbings of horses === <br /> <br /> *[[Irreligion and the treatment of horses#Irreligious Britain, sexual mutilations of horses and stabbings of horses|Irreligious Britain, sexual mutilations of horses and stabbings of horses]]<br /> <br /> == Dietary practices of atheists ==<br /> <br /> *[[Dietary practices of atheists]] (Dietary habits of various secular regions)<br /> <br /> == Christianized world and dog/cat meat eating ==<br /> <br /> In the [[Christianity|Christianized]] world (or countries that have a Christian legacy), where Christians make up the majority of the population, dog/cat eating is not common.<br /> <br /> == Atheism and veganism ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and veganism]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Vegetables.jpg|thumbnail|275px|center|Most atheists are not vegans (see: [[Atheism and veganism]]).<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The majority of [[atheism|atheists]] are likely [[East Asia]]n (see: [[Asian atheism]]).<ref>[http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/most-atheists-are-not-white/ Most atheists are not white & other non-fairy tales], Discover magazine</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> [[China]] has the world's largest [[atheism|atheist]] population (See: [[China and atheism]]).<ref>[http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)]</ref><ref>[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], ''Washington Post'' By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey May 23, 2013</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> An estimated 4 to 5 percent of Chinese are [[vegetarian]]s.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vegetarianism_by_country&oldid=908977651 Vegetarianism by country]</ref>]]<br /> <br /> == Wuhan coronavirus epidemic: Tens of thousands of pets in China to be slaughtered by authorities ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and the Wuhan coronavirus epidemic]]<br /> <br /> *[https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1236590/coronavirus-latest-china-pets-slaughtered-disease-virus-world-health-organisation-wuhan Tens of thousands of pets in China to be slaughtered by authorities] (China have been ordered to KILL their animals or risk them being culled by the the government)<br /> <br /> == Kosher meat slaughtering methods and the priorization of animal welfare ==<br /> [[File:70810564 64d3a67932.jpg|right|200px|thumb|[[Orthodox Judaism|Orthodox Jews]].]]<br /> *[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/06/jewish-muslim-slaughter-animal-welfare-humane Jewish and Muslim methods of slaughter prioritise animal welfare Jewish and Muslim methods of slaughter prioritise animal welfare] by Shuja Shafi and Jonathan Arkush, ''The Guardian'', March 6, 2014<br /> <br /> See also: <br /> <br /> *[[The Bible and health#Dr. David Macht, the Mosaic law and animal toxicity tests|Dr. David Macht, the Mosaic law and animal toxicity tests]]<br /> <br /> *[[The Bible and health]]<br /> <br /> == Religion and veganism ==<br /> <br /> *[[Religion and vegetarianism|Religion and veganism/vegetarianism]]<br /> <br /> *[[Christian/Jewish vegetarianism]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> [[File:Dogs being butchered in Guangdong, China 1999.jpg|thumbnail|right|200px|Dogs being butchered in Guangdong, China.<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> For more information, please see: [[Atheists and dog meat eating]] ]]<br /> *[[USA states: Religion/irreligion and percentage of dog owners]]<br /> <br /> *[[Judaism and dogs]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and morality]]<br /> <br /> *[[Animal cruelty]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> Dog meat trade in [[China]] and [[Vietnam]]:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjbWQAASPcs Chinese Dog Meat Festival | Undercover Cameras Reveal Brutality], ''ABC News''<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0fbhBAXir4 China's Dog Meat Festival], ''The New York Times''<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfaZeIxHFUM Dining on Dogs in Yulin: VICE Reports]<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrl2vMevzCY The cruel dog meat and fur trade in China - ANIMAL Equality investigation] - video<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Jr8nlc9dI Stealing pet dogs for meat in Vietnam]<br /> <br /> Cat meat trade in China and Vietnam:<br /> <br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kMI7WhG28 Cat meat trade in China] - video<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsmNw5r7n2Y Cats on the menu in Vietnam despite being illegal]<br /> <br /> [[Theism]] and animal suffering:<br /> <br /> *[http://www.saintsandsceptics.org/god-evil-and-animal-suffering/ God, Evil and Animal Suffering]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist}}<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Category:Atheism]]<br /> [[Category:Canines]]<br /> [[Category:Felines]]<br /> [[Category:Domestic Animals]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671773 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:58:01Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheists and ugliness */</p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Bible verses on ugliness ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.openbible.info/topics/being_ugly Bible verses on ugliness]<br /> <br /> == Atheists and ugliness ==<br /> [[File:Devin Patrick Kelley (2).jpg|thumbnail|210px|[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers|Atheist killer]] [[Devin Patrick Kelley]]<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The atheist [[PZ Myers]], quoting fellow [[leftism|leftist]] Alex Nichols, said that jibes associating outspoken [[Atheism|atheists]] with neckbeards (among other things) caused many [[liberal]]s/leftists to leave the atheist tent and those who remained for the most part lacked in social skills and self-awareness.<ref>[https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/10/17/poisoning-of-a-movement/ Poisoning of a movement] by PZ Myers</ref> See also: [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social skills]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]] and [[Atheism and obesity]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> The American contrarian blog ''Half Sigma'' declared about [[atheism and social outcasts]]:<br /> {{cquote|...[[Atheism and loneliness|atheists are most likely to live alone]].<br /> <br /> This is not surprising. Atheists are less desirable...partners. I observed this once when I was living in Washington, DC, and I wandered by an atheist convention happening on the mall. The atheist were [[Atheism and women|predominately male]], and significantly uglier than average.<br /> <br /> This is because ugly people become social outcasts, and social outcasts are more likely to be attracted to outcast movements like atheism, [[libertarianism]], [[communism]], etc.<br /> <br /> Jay Fink writes:<br /> <br /> If you are attractive and have a good social life you will generally not be interested in out of the mainstream groups or ideas. Why buck the status quo when it's working in your interests?<ref>[http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/01/atheism-is-a-lonely-religion.html Atheism is lonely religion]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In the [[Western World]], atheists have lower marriage rates (see: [[Atheism and marriage]]). In addition, compared to deeply religious cultures where an extended family and a sense of community often exists, secular countries are often lonelier societies (See: [[Atheism and loneliness]]).<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671771 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:52:13Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Bible verses on ugliness ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.openbible.info/topics/being_ugly Bible verses on ugliness]<br /> <br /> == Atheists and ugliness ==<br /> [[File:Devin Patrick Kelley (2).jpg|thumbnail|210px|[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers|Atheist killer]] [[Devin Patrick Kelley]]<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The atheist [[PZ Myers]], quoting fellow [[leftism|leftist]] Alex Nichols, said that jibes associating outspoken [[Atheism|atheists]] with neckbeards (among other things) caused many [[liberal]]s/leftists to leave the atheist tent and those who remained for the most part lacked in social skills and self-awareness.<ref>[https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/10/17/poisoning-of-a-movement/ Poisoning of a movement] by PZ Myers</ref> See also: [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social skills]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> The American contrarian blog ''Half Sigma'' declared about [[atheism and social outcasts]]:<br /> {{cquote|...[[Atheism and loneliness|atheists are most likely to live alone]].<br /> <br /> This is not surprising. Atheists are less desirable...partners. I observed this once when I was living in Washington, DC, and I wandered by an atheist convention happening on the mall. The atheist were [[Atheism and women|predominately male]], and significantly uglier than average.<br /> <br /> This is because ugly people become social outcasts, and social outcasts are more likely to be attracted to outcast movements like atheism, [[libertarianism]], [[communism]], etc.<br /> <br /> Jay Fink writes:<br /> <br /> If you are attractive and have a good social life you will generally not be interested in out of the mainstream groups or ideas. Why buck the status quo when it's working in your interests?<ref>[http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/01/atheism-is-a-lonely-religion.html Atheism is lonely religion]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In the [[Western World]], atheists have lower marriage rates (see: [[Atheism and marriage]]). In addition, compared to deeply religious cultures where an extended family and a sense of community often exists, secular countries are often lonelier societies (See: [[Atheism and loneliness]]).<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671770 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:48:59Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheists and ugliness */</p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Atheists and ugliness ==<br /> [[File:Devin Patrick Kelley (2).jpg|thumbnail|210px|[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers|Atheist killer]] [[Devin Patrick Kelley]]<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The atheist [[PZ Myers]], quoting fellow [[leftism|leftist]] Alex Nichols, said that jibes associating outspoken [[Atheism|atheists]] with neckbeards (among other things) caused many [[liberal]]s/leftists to leave the atheist tent and those who remained for the most part lacked in social skills and self-awareness.<ref>[https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/10/17/poisoning-of-a-movement/ Poisoning of a movement] by PZ Myers</ref> See also: [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social skills]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> The American contrarian blog ''Half Sigma'' declared about [[atheism and social outcasts]]:<br /> {{cquote|...[[Atheism and loneliness|atheists are most likely to live alone]].<br /> <br /> This is not surprising. Atheists are less desirable...partners. I observed this once when I was living in Washington, DC, and I wandered by an atheist convention happening on the mall. The atheist were [[Atheism and women|predominately male]], and significantly uglier than average.<br /> <br /> This is because ugly people become social outcasts, and social outcasts are more likely to be attracted to outcast movements like atheism, [[libertarianism]], [[communism]], etc.<br /> <br /> Jay Fink writes:<br /> <br /> If you are attractive and have a good social life you will generally not be interested in out of the mainstream groups or ideas. Why buck the status quo when it's working in your interests?<ref>[http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/01/atheism-is-a-lonely-religion.html Atheism is lonely religion]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In the [[Western World]], atheists have lower marriage rates (see: [[Atheism and marriage]]). In addition, compared to deeply religious cultures where an extended family and a sense of community often exists, secular countries are often lonelier societies (See: [[Atheism and loneliness]]).<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671769 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:48:00Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheists and ugliness */</p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Atheists and ugliness ==<br /> [[File:Devin Patrick Kelley (2).jpg|thumbnail|210px|[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers|Atheist killer]] [[Devin Patrick Kelley]]<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The atheist [[PZ Myers]], quoting fellow [[leftism|leftist]] Alex Nichols, said that jibes associating outspoken [[Atheism|atheists]] with neckbeards (among other things) caused many [[liberal]]s/leftists to leave the atheist tent and those who remained for the most part lacked in social skills and self-awareness.<ref>[https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/10/17/poisoning-of-a-movement/ Poisoning of a movement] by PZ Myers</ref> See also: [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social skills]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> The American contrarian blog ''Half Sigma'' declared about [[atheism and social outcasts]]:<br /> {{cquote|...[[Atheism and loneliness|atheists are most likely to live alone]].<br /> <br /> This is not surprising. Atheists are less desirable...partners. I observed this once when I was living in Washington, DC, and I wandered by an atheist convention happening on the mall. The atheist were [[Atheism and women|predominately male]], and significantly uglier than average.<br /> <br /> This is because ugly people become social outcasts, and social outcasts are more likely to be attracted to outcast movements like atheism, [[libertarianism]], [[communism]], etc.<br /> <br /> Jay Fink writes:<br /> <br /> If you are attractive and have a good social life you will generally not be interested in out of the mainstream groups or ideas. Why buck the status quo when it's working in your interests?<ref>[http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/01/atheism-is-a-lonely-religion.html Atheism is lonely religion]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In the [[Western World]], atheists have lower marriage rates (see: [[Atheism and marriage]]). In addition, compared to deeply religious cultures where an extended family and a sense of community often exists, secular countries are often lonelier societies (See: [[Atheism and loneliness]]).<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671767 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:47:26Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheists and ugliness */</p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Atheists and ugliness ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> [[File:Devin Patrick Kelley (2).jpg|thumbnail|210px|[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers|Atheist killer]] [[Devin Patrick Kelley]]<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The atheist [[PZ Myers]], quoting fellow [[leftism|leftist]] Alex Nichols, said that jibes associating outspoken [[Atheism|atheists]] with neckbeards (among other things) caused many [[liberal]]s/leftists to leave the atheist tent and those who remained for the most part lacked in social skills and self-awareness.<ref>[https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/10/17/poisoning-of-a-movement/ Poisoning of a movement] by PZ Myers</ref> See also: [[Atheism and social/interpersonal intelligence|Atheism and social skills]] and [[Atheism and social outcasts]] ]]<br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> The American contrarian blog ''Half Sigma'' declared about [[atheism and social outcasts]]:<br /> {{cquote|...[[Atheism and loneliness|atheists are most likely to live alone]].<br /> <br /> This is not surprising. Atheists are less desirable...partners. I observed this once when I was living in Washington, DC, and I wandered by an atheist convention happening on the mall. The atheist were [[Atheism and women|predominately male]], and significantly uglier than average.<br /> <br /> This is because ugly people become social outcasts, and social outcasts are more likely to be attracted to outcast movements like atheism, [[libertarianism]], [[communism]], etc.<br /> <br /> Jay Fink writes:<br /> <br /> If you are attractive and have a good social life you will generally not be interested in out of the mainstream groups or ideas. Why buck the status quo when it's working in your interests?<ref>[http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/01/atheism-is-a-lonely-religion.html Atheism is lonely religion]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In the [[Western World]], atheists have lower marriage rates (see: [[Atheism and marriage]]). In addition, compared to deeply religious cultures where an extended family and a sense of community often exists, secular countries are often lonelier societies (See: [[Atheism and loneliness]]).<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671766 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:45:42Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Atheism and ugliness */</p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Atheists and ugliness ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671765 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:45:23Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == Atheism and ugliness ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> <br /> The [[England|English]] [[Anthropology|anthropologist]] Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for [[religion|religiosity]], there is evidence that [[atheism|atheists]] are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have [[Symmetry|symmetrical]] faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Ugliness&diff=1671764 Ugliness 2020-07-27T15:43:36Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>'''Ugliness''' is the opposite of [[beauty]] but may also imply [[menace]] or [[Enmity|intractability]].<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> <br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Aesthetics&diff=1671763 Aesthetics 2020-07-27T15:41:58Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Beauty and the religious and the irreligious */</p> <hr /> <div>[[Image:W(49-64) gr.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Image of a face generated by [[average|averaging]] 16 original faces, which leads to the hypothesis that the process of averaging a variety of different faces produce beauty. Armand Marie Leroi, a developmental biologist at Imperial College, London, even hypothesized that race-mixing can increase the likelihood of physical attractiveness.]]<br /> '''Aesthetics''' is the philosophical study of the nature and experience of [[art]] and beauty.<br /> <br /> ==Aesthetics and the Golden Ratio==<br /> [[Image:Man2.jpg|right|thumb|200px|[[Leonardo da Vinci]]'s drawings of the human body emphasized its proportion. The ratio of the distances from foot to navel, and navel to head, is the Golden Ratio.]]<br /> Greek scholars believed that the [[Golden Ratio]] (also called divine proportion) is the key to beauty. Artists such as Leonardo da Vinci and [[Salvador Dali]] often incorporate the Golden Ratio in their drawings.<br /> <br /> ==Definition of "art"==<br /> Art has been defined in the field of aesthetics in various ways. Some adhere to a rigid definition of "[[art]]," such as paintings, [[sculpture]] and other traditional genres, while others believe that art should not be strictly defined, and thus believe that anything [[progressive]] may be labeled as such.<br /> <br /> == Architecture ==<br /> <br /> Aesthetics is an important part of [[architecture]]. A poll co-sponsored by the American Institute of Architects revealed the following public ranking of "America's Favorite Architecture," with the name of the architect in parentheses:<ref>http://www.aia.org/release_020707_150Buildings</ref><br /> <br /> #[[Empire State Building]] (Shreve, Lamb & Harmon)<br /> #[[White House|The White House]] (James Hoban)<br /> #[[Washington National Cathedral]] (George Bodley and Henry Vaughan)<br /> #[[Jefferson Memorial]] (John Russell Pope)<br /> #[[Golden Gate Bridge]] (Irving F. Morrow and Gertrude C. Morrow)<br /> #[[U.S. Capitol]] (William Thornton, Benjamin Henry Latrobe, Charles Bulfinch, Thomas U. Walter, Montgomery C. Meigs)<br /> #[[Lincoln Memorial]] (Henry Bacon)<br /> #Biltmore Estate/Vanderbilt Mansion (Richard Morris Hunt)<br /> #[[Chrysler Building]] (William Van Alen)<br /> #[[Vietnam Veterans Memorial]] (Maya Lin with Cooper-Lecky Partnership)<br /> #St. Patrick's Cathedral<ref>http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/medny/stpat1.html</ref> (James Renwick)<br /> <br /> <br /> ::::: [[File:Ravenne Sant Apollinare in Classe La nef centrale VIe siecle.jpg|thumb|left|300px|Ravenne, Sant Apollinare in Classe, La nef centrale, VIe siecle.]]<br /> [[File:St. Patrick's Cathedral.jpg|thumb|center|270px|St. Patrick's [[Cathedral]].]]<br /> {{Clear}}<br /> <br /> == Beauty and the religious/irreligious ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]] and [[Atheism and obesity]]<br /> <br /> === English anthropologist Edward Dutton on beauty among the religious/irreligious ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheists and physical attractiveness]]<br /> <br /> The English anthropologist Edward Dutton indicates that using [[right-wing]] politics as a proxy for religiosity, there is evidence that atheists are less attractive and he pointed out that right-wing politicians are more likely to have symmetrical faces according to a study.<ref>[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unique-everybody-else/201806/defending-atheist-mutational-load-theory-part-2 Defending Atheist Mutational Load Theory — Part 2] by <br /> Scott A. McGreal MSc., Psychology Today, June 22, 2018</ref><br /> <br /> === Religious Philippines had the most wins in the big four international beauty pageants in 2017. Irreligion is rare among Filipinos ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Religious Philippines winning streak in the major international beauty pageants]]<br /> <br /> The [[Philippines]] (a very religious country) have had a winning streak in major international beauty pageants (see: [[Religious Philippines winning streak in the major international beauty pageants]]).<br /> <br /> [[Wikipedia]], an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and [[agnosticism|agnostic]], has an article entitled ''Philippines at major beauty pageants''.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_at_major_beauty_pageants Philippines at major beauty pageants]</ref><br /> <br /> Wikipedia's article ''Irreligion in the Philippines'' indicated in 2018: "Irreligion in the Philippines is particularly rare among Filipinos..."<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? Irreligion in the Philippines], Wikipedia,<br /> 2017</ref><br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> [[File:Rembrandt Samson Accusing His Father-in-Law.jpg|thumb|300px|[[Rembrandt]], Samson Accusing His Father-in-Law, ca. 1635.]]<br /> <br /> *[[Plotinus]]<br /> *[[Music]]<br /> *[[The Renaissance]]<br /> *[[Sistine Chapel]]<br /> *[[Spanish Golden Age]]<br /> *[[Irish Dance]]<br /> *[[Sculpture]]<br /> *[[Master of Arts]]<br /> *[[Painting Masterpieces]]<br /> *The [[beauty industry]] in America <br /> *[[World treasures]]<br /> *[[Argument from beauty]]<br /> <br /> [[File:The Tower of Babel by Pieter Bruegel the Elder, 1563.jpg|thumb|left|300px|The Tower of Babel by [[Pieter Bruegel the Elder]], 1563.]]<br /> [[Image:Cot 1880.jpg|150px|thumb|center|The Storm, [[Pierre-Auguste Cot]].]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> [[Image:Taj Mahal...jpg|right|Taj Mahal]]<br /> *[http://www.artsusa.org/public_awareness/ National Arts Education]<br /> *[http://usinfo.state.gov/scv/life_and_culture/the_arts.html The Arts] U. S. Life, Culture and History.<br /> *[http://www.artcyclopedia.com/history/academic-art.html Academic Art] Artcyclopedia.<br /> *[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaH4y6ZjSfE "Talk to your daughter before the beauty industry does"] - video exposing the pressure on girls and women to conform to an (impossible?) ideal of beauty<br /> <br /> == References ==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> [[Category:Aesthetic beauty]]<br /> [[Category:Beauty]]<br /> [[Category:Physical attractiveness]]<br /> [[Category:Art]]<br /> [[Category:Philosophy]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheism_and_penile_cancer&diff=1668635 Atheism and penile cancer 2020-07-16T09:25:58Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:220px-Mars symbol.svg.png|thumbnail|right|255px|The medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' states:"...in a society where masculinity is defined by and associated with the presence of the phallus, penile cancer affects male self-esteem and may lead to depression. The vexing issue with penile cancer lies in the fact that it is a largely preventable disease, where significant risk factors are modifiable."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref> See also: [[Atheism and cancer]] and [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and self-esteem]] ]] <br /> According to WebMD, "[[Penile cancer]], or [[cancer]] of the penis, is when cells grow out of control on or in a man’s penis."<br /> <br /> There are a number of practices positively correlated to [[atheism]]/irreligion that increases an individuals risk for penile cancer as can be seen below.<br /> <br /> Some of the risk factors related to the development of penile cancer are: lack of male [[circumcision]], sexual [[promiscuity]], [[HPV]] virus, [[AIDS]], [[homosexuality]] (see: [[Homosexuality and penile cancer]]), smoking, [[obesity]], being over the age of 60, and [[bestiality]].<ref><br /> *[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]<br /> *[https://www.webmd.com/cancer/penile-cancer-overview#1 Penile Cancer], WebMD<br /> *[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5844624/#:~:text=Promiscuous%20sexual%20behaviour%20can%20increase,et%20al.%2C%202013). Increased Risk of Penile Cancer among Men Working in Agriculture]'', Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2018; 19(1): 237–241. doi: 10.22034/APJCP.2018.19.1.237<br /> *''[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4944270/#:~:text=Obesity%20was%20significantly%20associated%20with,1.81%2C%20p%20%3C%200.0001). Obesity is associated with increased risk of invasive penile cancer]'' , BMC Urol. 2016; 16: 42. Published online 2016 Jul 13. doi: 10.1186/s12894-016-0161-7<br /> *[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02512.x/abstract Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study]<br /> *[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-bestiality-linked-penile-cancer.html Bestiality linked to penile cancer], Medical Xpress website<br /> *[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> The medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' states:<br /> {{Cquote|...in a society where [[masculinity]] is defined by and associated with the presence of the phallus, penile cancer affects [[male]] [[self-esteem]] and may lead to [[depression]]. The vexing issue with penile cancer lies in the fact that it is a largely preventable disease, where significant risk factors are modifiable."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref>}}<br /> <br /> See also: [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and self-esteem]] and [[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, Judaism, United States, South Korea, circumcision and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism, circumcision and penile cancer]] and [[Circumcision]] and [[The Bible and health]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Prophet Moses.jpg|thumb|200px|left|The prophet [[Moses]] authored the book of [[Leviticus]] ]]<br /> Max Neuberger, writing in his "History of Medicine" states concerning the [[Mosaic law]]s: <br /> {{cquote|The commands concern prophylaxis and suppression of epidemics, suppression of venereal disease and prostitution, care of the skin, baths, food, housing and clothing, regulation of labour, sexual life, discipline of the people, etc. Many of these commands, such as Sabbath rest, [[circumcision]], laws concerning food (interdiction of blood and pork), measures concerning menstruating and lying-in women, and those suffering from gonorrhoea, isolation of lepers, and hygiene of the camp, are, in view of the conditions of the climate, surprisingly rational.<ref name="Neuburger, Max 1910, p. 38">Neuburger, Max. History of Medicine. Oxford University Press, 1910, Vol. I, p. 38.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> According to the American Cancer Society:<br /> {{Cquote|Circumcision removes all (or part) of the foreskin. This procedure is most often done in infants, but it can be done later in life, too. Men who were circumcised as children may have a much lower chance of getting penile cancer than those who were not. In fact, some experts say that circumcision as an infant prevents this cancer. The same protective effect is not seen if circumcision is done as an adult.<br /> <br /> The reason for the lower risk in circumcised men is not entirely clear, but it may be related to other known risk factors. For example, men who are circumcised can’t develop the condition called phimosis, and they don’t accumulate material known as smegma (see the next section). Men with smegma or phimosis have an increased risk of penile cancer. The later a man is circumcised, it's more likely that one of these conditions will occur first.<br /> <br /> In weighing the risks and benefits of circumcision, doctors consider the fact that penile cancer is very uncommon in the United States, even in uncircumcised men. Although the American Academy of Pediatrics has stated that the health benefits of circumcision in newborn males outweigh the risks, it also states these benefits are not great enough to recommend that all newborns be routinely circumcised. In the end, decisions about circumcision are highly personal and often depend more on social and religious factors than on medical evidence.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Jewish men, Israel, male circumcision and rarity of penile cancer ===<br /> <br /> The 2017 medical journal article entitled ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis'' published in the ''Revista Panamericana de Salud Pública/Pan American Journal of Public Health'' declared: "In contrast, rates among Jewish men born in Israel are reportedly very close to zero."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref><br /> <br /> === Circumcision and the rarity of penile cancer in the United States and South Korea ===<br /> <br /> The [[United States]] is a religious country (see: [[United States, irreligion vs. religion and demographics]] and [[Sociology of "atheism is un-American" view]] and [[American atheism]]).<br /> <br /> [[Wikipedia]], an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and [[agnosticism|agnostic]], indicated in 2020:<br /> {{Cquote|The United States is an outlier with regards to other predominately Christian Western nations. As of 2007, fifty-five percent of newborn males were circumcised, a significant decline from years past. Countries like Australia and [[Canada]] have much lower rates of circumcision, and the United Kingdom is considering an outright ban.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religious_male_circumcision&oldid=964210795 Religious male circumcision], Wikipedia</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The 2019 medical journal article ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer'' published in ''Biomed Research International'' states: "The overall incidence in the US is approximately 0.69 cases/100,000 people, although this rate increases with an increasing age at diagnosis. In Korea, primary penile cancer is both rare and rarely reported, accounting for only 74 cases in 2015, which corresponded to only 0.03% of all malignant tumors during that year."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457309/ ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer''], Biomed Res Int. 2019; 2019: 6940582. Published online 2019 Mar 26. doi: 10.1155/2019/6940582</ref><br /> <br /> The 2002 journal article entitled ''Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in [[South Korea]]: history and underlying causes'' states:<br /> {{Cquote|Currently the circumcision rate for high-school boys is >90% and for those >70 years old is <10%. The circumcision rate in 1945 was <0.1%. When averaged over the whole population, the present South Korean circumcision rate is ~60%; the rate has increased dramatically with time and particularly in the past 20 years, when the estimated number of male circumcisions has exceeded the number of male births. Although circumcision in South Korea has been strongly influenced by American culture, it has never been predominantly neonatal."<ref>[http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/pang1/ Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in South Korea: history and underlying causes], BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 89: Pages 48-54, January 2002.</ref><ref>Frisch M, Friis S, Kruger Kjaer S, Melbye M. Falling incidence of penile cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90). Br Med J 1995; 311: 1471</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2011, NBC New York reported that penile cancer in the United States was "rare".<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> === Soviet Union and male circumcision ===<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|right|200px|thumb|[[Joseph Stalin]]'s atheistic regime killed tens of millions of people. See also: [[Atheism and Mass Murder|Atheism and mass murder]] ]]<br /> The [[Soviet Union]] practiced [[state atheism]].<br /> <br /> [[Wikipedia]], an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and [[agnosticism|agnostic]], indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Before glasnost, according to an article in The Jewish Press, Jewish ritual circumcision was forbidden in the Soviet Union. However, David E. Fishman, professor of Jewish History at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, states that, whereas the heder and yeshiva, the organs of Jewish education, "were banned by virtue of the law separating church and school, and subjected to tough police and administrative actions," circumcision was not proscribed by law or suppressed by executive measures. Jehoshua A. Gilboa writes that while circumcision was not officially or explicitly banned, pressure was exerted to make it difficult. Mohels in particular were concerned that they could be punished for any health issue that might develop, even if it arose some time after the circumcision.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circumcision_and_law&oldid=965306904 Circumcision and law], Wikipedia</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 1964, A.L. Shabad reported in ''The Journal of Urology'': "In the Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics the incidence of penile cancer has varied in recent years from 0.5 to 1 per cent of cancerous diseases."<ref>[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022534717640345 Some Aspects of Etiology and Prevention of Penile Cancer], Volume 92, Issue 6, December 1964, Pages 696-702</ref> <br /> As noted above, the 2019 medical journal article ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer'' published in ''Biomed Research International'' states: "In Korea, primary penile cancer is both rare and rarely reported, accounting for only 74 cases in 2015, which corresponded to only 0.03% of all malignant tumors during that year."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457309/ ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer''], Biomed Res Int. 2019; 2019: 6940582. Published online 2019 Mar 26. doi: 10.1155/2019/6940582</ref> (South Korea has adopted the religious United States' practice of male circumcision).<br /> <br /> === Secular Europe and male circumcision ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Secular Europe]]<br /> <br /> From a global perspective, [[Europe]] is more secular/[[Atheism|atheistic]] than the rest of the world although it does have a considerable amount of religious immigrants who have higher birth rates (see: [[Secular Europe]] and [[Atheist population]] and [[Global atheism]]).<br /> <br /> In 2012, the [[BBC]] reported in an article entitled ''Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma'':<br /> {{Cquote|While Europe increasingly questions the practice of circumcising boys, US paediatricians are about to say that the medical case for it is getting stronger. Most US adult men are circumcised, but the number of newborns having the op is falling, and is now below 50% in some states - intensifying the dilemma for parents.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19072761 Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma], BBC</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and agnostic, indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|On 1 October 2013, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe adopted a non-binding resolution in which they state they are "particularly worried about a category of violation of the physical integrity of children," and included in this category "circumcision of young boys for religious reasons." On 7 October, Israel's president Shimon Peres wrote a personal missive to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, Thorbjørn Jagland, to stop the ban, arguing: "The Jewish communities across Europe would be greatly afflicted to see their cultural and religious freedom impeded upon by the Council of Europe, an institution devoted to the protection of these very rights." Two days later, Jagland clarified that the resolution was non-binding and that “Nothing in the body of our legally binding standards would lead us to put on equal footing the issue of female genital mutilation and the circumcision of young boys for religious reasons.”<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circumcision_and_law&oldid=965306904 Circumcision and law], Wikipedia</ref>}}<br /> <br /> A number of male circumcision bans have been proposed by various Europeans.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circumcision_and_law&oldid=965306904 Circumcision and law], Wikipedia</ref><br /> <br /> === England/Wales/United States/Australia, male circumcision and penile cancer ===<br /> [[Image:England.gif|right|thumb|200px|A study reported that [[England]] and [[Wales]] had the highest incidence and mortality rates of penile cancer compared to Australia and US and also the lowest infant circumcision rates and overall circumcision prevalence.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536252/ Trends in penile cancer: a comparative study between Australia, England and Wales, and the US], Springerplus. 2015; 4: 420. Published online 2015 Aug 14. doi: 10.1186/s40064-015-1191-4</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> England (highlighted in light green), showing the boundaries of the ceremonial counties.]]<br /> As noted above, the United States is a religious country (see: [[United States, irreligion vs. religion and demographics]] and [[Sociology of "atheism is un-American" view]] and [[American atheism]]).<br /> <br /> The [[UK]] and [[Australia]] are more irreligious/nonreligious than the United States (see: [[British atheism]] and [[UK and secularism]] and [[Irreligion in Australia]]).<br /> <br /> The 2015 journal article ''Trends in penile cancer: a comparative study between Australia, England and Wales, and the US'' reported:<br /> {{Cquote|The overall incidence of penile cancer in England and Wales (1.44 per 100,000 man-years) was higher than in Australia (0.80 per 100,000), and the US (0.66 per 100,000). Incidence of penile cancer in all three countries has remained relatively stable over time. Similarly, although the mortality rates were also higher in England and Wales (0.37 per 100,000 man-years) compared to Australia (0.18 per 100,000) and the US (0.15 per 100,000), the mortality/incidence ratios were similar for all three countries.<br /> <br /> [[England]] and [[Wales]] had the highest incidence and mortality rates of penile cancer compared to Australia and US and also the lowest infant circumcision rates and overall circumcision prevalence. This offers some support to previous data suggesting infant circumcision may reduce risk of penile cancer. However, despite having higher circumcision rates in the US, the incidence of penile cancer in Australia and the US were similar, suggesting that the penile cancer incidence is not solely attributable to circumcision rates.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536252/ Trends in penile cancer: a comparative study between Australia, England and Wales, and the US], Springerplus. 2015; 4: 420. Published online 2015 Aug 14. doi: 10.1186/s40064-015-1191-4</ref>}}<br /> <br /> See also: [[Atheism, bestiality and penile cancer]] and [[Bestiality and Britain]] and [[Bestiality and Australia]]<br /> <br /> === Irreligious Sweden, circumcision and penile cancer ===<br /> <br /> [[Sweden]] had a rate of 2.1 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 2000-2012 (Sweden is one of the most atheistic counties in the world and the website adherents.com reported that in 2005 46 - 85% of Swedes were [[agnosticism|agnostics]]/atheists/non-believers in God.<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics(Zuckerman, 2005)]</ref>).<br /> <ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref><br /> <br /> [[Scandinavia]] is considered to consist of the countries of [[Norway]], Sweden, and [[Denmark]]. The male circumcision rate in [[Scandinavia]] is approximately 1-2%.<ref>[http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/pang1/ Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in South Korea: history and underlying causes], BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 89: Pages 48-54, January 2002.</ref><ref>Frisch M, Friis S, Kruger Kjaer S, Melbye M. Falling incidence of penile cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90). Br Med J 1995; 311: 1471</ref> See also: [[Bestiality and Sweden]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, promiscuity and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and sexual immorality articles]] and [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Flag of Denmark.png|left|200px|thumbnail|[[Denmark]] is the third most [[Atheism|atheistic]] country in the world and the website adherents.com reports that 43 - 80% of Danes are [[agnosticism|agnostics]]/atheists/non-believers in God.<ref name="Top 50">[http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf "Top 50 countries with highest proportion of atheists/agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)"]. Chris and Terri Chapman. Retrieved on September 10, 2014.</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> In 2009, Suzanne Ost reported in her book published by Cambridge University Press, that the [[Atheism and child pornography|child pornography]] material produced in [[Denmark]] (and Holland) still constituted the largest part of child pornography that was currently available, having been transferred into digital format and uploaded onto the internet.<ref>Ost, Suzanne (2009). ''Child Pornography and Sexual Grooming: Legal and Societal Responses'' (Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press), p. 29.</ref> See: [[Atheism and child pornography]] ]]<br /> [[HPV|Human papillomavirus]] (HPV) is positively correlated to promiscuity and penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> In 2018, the ''Asian Pacific Journal of Cancer Prevention'' indicated in "Promiscuous sexual behaviour can increase the chance of HPV infection and was also associated with increased risk of penile cancer (Madsen et al., 2008; Chaux et al., 2013)."<ref>''[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5844624/#:~:text=Promiscuous%20sexual%20behaviour%20can%20increase,et%20al.%2C%202013). Increased Risk of Penile Cancer among Men Working in Agriculture]'', Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2018; 19(1): 237–241. doi: 10.22034/APJCP.2018.19.1.237</ref><br /> <br /> A Quartz website article indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Evidence suggests that [https://theconversation.com/religiosity-about-reproduction-more-than-cooperation-18935 religion and sexual behavior are often linked]. Many major religions, such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some traditional religions, promote lifestyles emphasizing fidelity and underscoring the importance of caring for one’s family. And a large body of research suggests that such religions may be especially attractive to people who value such commitments—perhaps precisely because those religions help to reinforce their own lifestyle choices...<br /> <br /> Still, knowing the perceived connection between faith and sexual commitment, we suspected that people may see atheists, relative to believers, as less likely to endorse values like monogamy and caring for one’s family—values associated with being sexually committed.<br /> <br /> In such people’s minds, sexually uncommitted behavior is linked to several other traits and social behavior, such as opportunism and being impulsive—traits that hardly inspire trust<br /> <ref>[https://qz.com/1776715/research-shows-atheists-are-trusted-less-than-religious-people/ Intense prejudice exists against atheists in the US] by By Jaimie Arona Krems & Jordan W. Moon, December 28, 2019, Quartz website</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The [[Barna Group]] found that atheists and [[agnostics]] in America were more likely, than [[theist]]s in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: [[Illegal drugs|illegal drug use]]; excessive drinking; sexual relationships [[fornication|outside of marriage]]; [[abortion]]; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; [[Profanity|obscene language]]; gambling; [[pornography]] and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in [[homosexuality]]/[[bisexuality]].<ref>[http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/58-practical-outcomes-replace-biblical-principles-as-the-moral-standard Practical Outcomes Replace Biblical Principles As the Moral Standard], Barna Goup</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism, homosexuality, AIDS and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexuality and penile cancer]] and [[Atheism and homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Stephen-Fry.jpg|thumbnail|250px|right|[[Stephen Fry]] is an [[atheist]] and a [[homosexual]]. See also: [[Homosexuality and obesity]] and [[Atheism and obesity]] ]]<br /> <br /> [[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> [[AIDS]]/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men.<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The [[conservative]] journalist [[Peter LaBarbera]] of [[Americans for Truth]] wrote: "Anyone who has researched the subject of [[homosexuality]] knows that many of the most staunch advocates of homosexuality are those who hold a decidedly secular outlook."<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2008/05/03/homosexuality-and-atheism/ Atheism and homosexuality]</ref> <br /> <br /> Given the [[Homosexuality and health|many diseases associated with homosexuality]], the [[Bible|biblical]] prohibition against homosexuality is quite arguably one of the [http://creationwiki.org/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge many examples where the Bible exhibited knowledge that was ahead of its time]. <br /> <br /> At the same time, atheistic [[communism|communist]] regimes in history historically have often taken a negative view of homosexuality and within [[Western World]] atheism, there is a segment of that [[atheist population]] which takes a negative view of homosexuality (See: [[Atheism and the persecution of homosexuals]]). <br /> <br /> As noted above, the [[Barna Group]] found regarding [[Atheism and morality|atheism and morality]] that those who hold to the worldviews of [[atheism]] or [[agnosticism]] in America were more likely, than theists in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: [[Illegal drugs|illegal drug use]]; excessive drinking; sexual relationships [[fornication|outside of marriage]]; [[abortion]]; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; [[Profanity|obscene language]]; gambling; [[pornography]] and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in [[homosexuality]]/[[bisexuality]].<ref>http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/58-practical-outcomes-replace-biblical-principles-as-the-moral-standard</ref> <br /> <br /> [[Soviet Union]] founder [[Vladimir Lenin]], a militant atheist, had a homosexual relationship with Cheka leader [[Grigory Zinoviev]].<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEzejRkT78A&feature=youtu.be</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism/irreligion, smoking and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and smoking]]<br /> [[File:Paris street photo of a man smoking.jpg|thumbnail|left|250px|[[Paris]] street photo of a man smoking. <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> In 2015, according to survey data, 29% of [[France]]'s population identified as atheists and 63% identified as non-religious.<ref name="obs2015">[http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2015/01/18/carte-latheisme-monde-france-numero-4-257171 La carte de l’athéisme dans le monde : la France numéro 4], L'Obs, 2015</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> Tourists visiting France often cite smoking as the first culture shock they experience.<ref>[https://www.thelocal.fr/20170502/smoking-france-cigarettes-do-french-really-smoke- The French and smoking: Is France really 'Europe's chimney']</ref> A survey by travel website Tripadvisor reported that users found that France was by far the "smokiest" country in the world.<ref>[https://www.thelocal.fr/20170502/smoking-france-cigarettes-do-french-really-smoke- The French and smoking: Is France really 'Europe's chimney']</ref> See also: [[Atheism and smoking]] ]]<br /> Smoking is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> The abstract of the 2012 ''International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine'' journal article entitled ''Religion and smoking: a review of recent literature'' indicates: <br /> {{Cquote|Tobacco smoking and exposure to secondhand smoke are a major threat to human health worldwide. The effort to prevent tobacco use should be regarded as an important public health strategy. Given the significance of religion and spirituality in the daily life of more than 90% of the world's population, the relationship of religion and smoking should be seen as a critical research area. Religions are many and varied, but most value human well-being highly and so do not approve of tobacco use, even though they do not prohibit it entirely. In recent years, researchers have shown more interest in the subject of religion and health, including drug and tobacco use. Differences of focus and methodology notwithstanding, most studies have ascertained a deterrent role for religion as regards tobacco use, and several mechanisms have been proposed to explain the negative relationship between religion or spirituality and smoking.<ref>[Religion and smoking: a review of recent literature.] by Garrusi B1, Nakhaee N., ''International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine'' , 2012;43(3):279-92.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The 2017 journal article ''Smoking and Religion: Untangling Associations Using English Survey Data'' published in the ''Journal of Religion and Health'' indicates: "Highest levels of smoking characterise people not professing any religion... An association between smoking and the absence of a religious affiliation is sustained. An understanding of the association between smoking and religion is essential to the development of tobacco control programmes."<ref>*[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28667475 Smoking and Religion: Untangling Associations Using English Survey Data], J Relig Health. 2017</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism, obesity and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and obesity]]<br /> [[File:China on globe.png|thumbnail|200px|right|[[China]] has the largest atheist population in the world.<ref><br /> *[http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)]<br /> *[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], ''Washington Post'' By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey May 23, 2013</ref> In 2014, the British medical journal'' Lancet'' reported that the Chinese now have the second highest obesity rate in the world.<ref>[https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/05/29/as-obesity-rises-chinese-kids-are-almost-as-fat-as-americans/ As Obesity Rises, Chinese Kids Are Almost as Fat as Americans], ''Wall Street Journal'' Chinarealtime, May 29, 2014</ref><ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgJvV62yD2E Chubby China: Nation of 300 Million Overweight People]</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> A recent study published in the ''Obesity Reviews'' journal, found that Chinese teenagers' rate of [[diabetes]] was four times that of their [[United States|American]] peers.<ref>[http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-09/14/content_26521029.htm Obesity is a growing concern in China] By Pang Li, China.org.cn, September 14, 2012</ref>]]<br /> The 2016 medical journal article ''Obesity is associated with increased risk of invasive penile cancer'' indicates: "Obesity was significantly associated with an increased risk of developing penile cancer. For every five-unit increase in BMI the risk of invasive penile cancer increased by 53 % (OR 1.53, 95 % CI 1.29-1.81, p < 0.0001)".<ref>''[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4944270/#:~:text=Obesity%20was%20significantly%20associated%20with,1.81%2C%20p%20%3C%200.0001). Obesity is associated with increased risk of invasive penile cancer]'' , BMC Urol. 2016; 16: 42. Published online 2016 Jul 13. doi: 10.1186/s12894-016-0161-7</ref><br /> <br /> The current [[atheist population]] mostly resides in [[East Asia]] (particularly [[China]]) and in [[secular Europe]]/[[Australia]] primarily among whites.<ref>[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey, ''Washington Post'', May 23, 2013</ref> Most [[atheism|atheists]] are [[East Asia]]ns (see: [[Asian atheism]]). See: [[Global atheism]] and [[Western atheism and race]] <br /> <br /> Secular Europe and communist [[China]] have significant problems with obesity (see: [[Secular Europe and obesity]] and [[China and obesity]]). In addition, [[Australia]] has a significant problem with obesity (see: [[Australia, irreligion and obesity]]). <br /> <br /> In the [[United States]] at the present time, the greater the degree of irreligiosity in a generation, the [[Atheism and obesity#Irreligion/religion, generations in the United States and obesity|higher their obesity rate is]]. <br /> <br /> According to the [[Gallup poll|Gallup Inc.]], "Very religious Americans are more likely to practice healthy behaviors than those who are moderately religious or nonreligious."<ref>[http://www.gallup.com/poll/145379/Religious-Americans-Lead-Healthier-Lives.aspx Very Religious Americans Lead Healthier Lives], Gallup Poll, 2010</ref><br /> <br /> Gallup declared concerning the study which measured the degree to which religiosity affects health practices: "[[Generalized linear model]] analysis was used to estimate marginal scores all five reported metrics after controlling for age (in years), gender, race/ethnicity, marital status, education (number of years), log of income, and region of the country... Results are based on telephone interviews conducted as part of the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index survey Jan. 2-July 28, 2010, with a random sample of 554,066 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia, selected using random-digit-dial sampling.<ref>[http://www.gallup.com/poll/145379/Religious-Americans-Lead-Healthier-Lives.aspx Very Religious Americans Lead Healthier Lives], Gallup Poll, 2010</ref><br /> <br /> == Global atheism, aging populations and penile cancer ==<br /> [[File: Blue Marble.jpg|right|200px|thumbnail|[[Atheism]] is in [[Global atheism|decline worldwide]], with the number of atheists falling from 4.5% of the world's population in 1970 to 2.0% in 2010 and projected to drop to 1.8% by 2020.<ref>[https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/global-study-atheists-decline-only-18-world-population-2020 Global Study: Atheists in Decline, Only 1.8% of World Population by 2020]</ref> See: [[Global atheism statistics]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Global atheism and aging populations]]<br /> <br /> As noted above, one of the risk factors for penile cancer is being over 60 years old.<ref>[https://www.webmd.com/cancer/penile-cancer-overview#1 Penile Cancer], WebMD</ref><br /> <br /> The current global [[Atheist Population|atheist population]] mostly resides in [[East Asia]] (particularly China) and in secular Europe/Australia primarily among whites.<ref>[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey, ''Washington Post'', May 23, 2013</ref> See: [[Global atheism]]<br /> <br /> 2.1 births per woman is a replacement level of births in a society. Atheists have a below replacement level of fertility (See: [[Atheism and fertility rates]]). <br /> <br /> As a result of having a below replacement level of births, [[global atheism]] is facing significant challenges in terms of aging populations in [[East Asia]] and [[Europe]] and atheism is expected to shrink in terms of its market share of the world's population (see: [[Global atheism and aging populations]] and [[Desecularization and aging populations]] and [[Desecularization]] and [[Causes of desecularization]]).<br /> <br /> On the other hand, there are studies that show the religious people live longer (see: [[Atheism and life expectancy]]).<br /> <br /> == Atheism, bestiality and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism, bestiality and penile cancer]] and [[Atheism and bestiality]] and [[Bestiality and Britain]] and [[Bestiality and Sweden]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Europe map.png|thumbnail|200px|left|There is a positive correlation between engaging in bestiality and penile cancer.<ref>[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02512.x/abstract Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study]</ref><ref>[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-bestiality-linked-penile-cancer.html Bestiality linked to penile cancer], Medical Xpress website</ref><ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The United States is far more religious than [[secular Europe]] (see: [[Global atheism]] and [[American atheism]]). Secular Europe recently had a notable problem with bestiality (see: [[Bestiality and secular Europe]]).<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> A 2014 study found that the incidence rate of penile cancer in the USA is 0.58 per 100,000. In Europe, the incidence rate of the disease is 1.33 per 100,000.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> A Brazilian medical study found that men who engaged in bestiality were twice as likely to develop penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref>]]<br /> In areas of the [[Western World]] where there is a significant amount of [[atheism|atheists]], there have been notable problems related to [[bestiality]] (see: [[Bestiality and various geographic areas]] and [[Atheism and bestiality]]).<br /> <br /> A 2015 ''Jerusalem Post'' article indicates "[[Copenhagen]] has for long been the bestiality capital of Europe and has attracted many tourists mainly visiting to have sex with animals. Legislation against this practice was only enacted this year."<ref>[https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Suggestions-for-the-anti-Semitic-slurs-list-434293 Suggestions for the anti-Semitic slurs list] by MANFRED GERSTENFELD, ''Jerusalem Post'', 2015</ref><br /> <br /> ''Vice News'', a global news channel which broadcasts documentaries about current topics, reported in 2014 concerning [[secular Europe]]:<br /> {{cquote|Bestiality is having a weird renaissance in Europe. Perhaps ironically, it kicked off when activists succeeded in banning the practice in places like Germany and Norway. In the background, something else emerged simultaneously: an animal-sex-tourism industry, which has been blossoming in Denmark.<ref>[http://examiningatheism.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-problem-of-irreligious-engaging-in.html Secular Europe's weird bestiality renaissance]</ref>}} <br /> <br /> The journal article ''Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study'' points out that bestiality is positively correlated to penile cancer.<br /> <ref>[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02512.x/abstract Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study]</ref> <br /> <br /> According to the Medical Xpress website:<br /> {{Cquote|The new study, published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine, finds a link between bestiality and penile cancer.<br /> <br /> The study, led by urologist Stenio de Cassio Zequi in San Paulo, looked at 492 men from rural Brazil. The men participating ranged in age from 18 to 80. Of the 492 men, 118 had been diagnosed with penile cancer.<br /> <br /> Of the 188 men with penile cancer, 45 percent had sexual relations with animals compared with 32 percent of the healthy males. Of those men who had sexual relations with animals, 59 percent reported having sex with animals for one to five years and 21 percent had been doing it for more than five years.<br /> <br /> Sexual interaction occurred as often as daily and included animals such as horses, cows, pigs and chickens.<br /> <br /> Researchers believe that sexual interaction between humans and animals may produce micro-traumas in the penis such as scratches and cuts. They theorize that animal secretions may be toxic to humans and that some unrecognized microorganism may be responsible for the cause of penile cancer.<ref>[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-bestiality-linked-penile-cancer.html Bestiality linked to penile cancer], Medical Xpress website</ref>}}<br /> <br /> NBC New York reported:<br /> {{Cquote|In a study of 492 men from rural Brazil, 35 percent reprted having had sex with an animal at men who had sex some point in their lives. The report found those men were twice as likely to develop cancer of the penis.<br /> <br /> The paper was authored by a team of urologists from centers around Brazil and studied men from age 18 to 80. Men who had had sex with animals also reported a higher incidence of sexually transmitted diseases. Of the 118 penile cancer patients, 45 percent reported having had sex with animals, compared to 32 percent of healthy men. Fifty-nine percent of men who had sex with animals did so for one to five years, while 21 percent continued the behavior, also known as zoophilia, for more than five years.<br /> <br /> Men reported having sex as frequently as daily with such animals as mares, cows, pigs and and chickens. Penile cancer accounts for up to 10 percent of cancers in men in Asia, Africa and South America, although it is rare in the U.S.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism, self-esteem, depression and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and self-esteem]]<br /> [[File:Sadness.jpg‎|thumb|right|250px|[[Atheism|Atheists]] have higher rates of suicide than the general population.<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><ref>http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html</ref><ref>http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303</ref> Please see: [[Atheism and suicide]] ]] <br /> As noted above, the medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' states: <br /> {{Cquote|...in a society where masculinity is defined by and associated with the presence of the phallus, penile cancer affects male self-esteem and may lead to depression. The vexing issue with penile cancer lies in the fact that it is a largely preventable disease, where significant risk factors are modifiable."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ''The Telegraph'' reported: "Patients with a strong “intrinsic faith” (a deep personal belief, not just a social inclination to go to a place of worship) recover 70 per cent faster from depression than those who are not deeply religious."<ref>[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10914137/What-God-does-to-your-brain.html What God does to your brain] by Julia Llewellyn Smith. ''The Telegraph'', 20 Jun 2014</ref><br /> <br /> Concerning [[atheism and depression]], a University of Michigan study involving 19,775 individuals found that [[religion|religious]] people are less likely than [[atheism|atheists]] to suffer [[depression]] when they are lonely.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6136603/Lonely-religious-people-depressed-God-friend.html Lonely religious people are less depressed than atheists because they see God as a friend replacement, study finds], ''Daily Mail'', 2018</ref> See also: [[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> <br /> There are preliminary studies indicating that individuals who reject [[Christianity]] in Western cultures have lower self-esteem than the Christian population.<ref>[http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/rejection-of-christianity-and-self.html Rejection of atheism and self-esteem]</ref><ref>[http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/atheists-and-self-esteem-part-2.html Atheism and self-esteem - part 2]</ref> There are also studies indicating that lower self-esteem is associated with suicidality.<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21190929</ref><ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><br /> Atheists have [[Atheism and suicide|higher rates of suicide than the general population.]]<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><ref>http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html</ref><ref>http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303</ref> At the same time, there is a significant portion of the atheist population who suffer from excess self-esteem/[[pride]] issues (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]]).<br /> <br /> == Study: Secular Europe has about twice the rate of penile cancer than the religious United States ==<br /> <br /> [[Image:Irving Berlin.jpg|left|thumb|200px|[[Irving Berlin]]'s song God Bless America is a popular American patriotic song written by Berlin in 1918. See: [[Sociology of "atheism is un-American" view]] and [[American atheism]]]]<br /> <br /> [[Secular Europe]] recently had a notable problem with bestiality (see: [[Bestiality and secular Europe]]).<br /> <br /> As noted above, there is a positive correlation between engaging in bestiality and penile cancer. <br /> <br /> In the United States, Pew Research survey data indicates that the percentage of atheists in the United States has remained at 4% from 2015 to July 2019.<ref>[https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace], Pew Research</ref> See: [[American atheism]]<br /> <br /> The 2017 medical journal article entitled ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis'' published in the ''Revista Panamericana de Salud Pública/Pan American Journal of Public Health'' indicated: "Penile cancer is a rare malignancy, especially in developed countries, in which the annual incidence is below 1 case per 100,000 men."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref> <br /> <br /> As noted above, penile cancer is rare in the United States.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> The 2014 medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' which was published in the W''est Indian Medical Journal'' indicates: "The incidence rate of penile cancer in the USA is 0.58 per 100,000. In Europe, the incidence rate of the disease is 1.33 per 100,000."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref><br /> <br /> The Brazilian study noted above, indicates that men who engage in bestiality have twice the rate of penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> On the other hand, a 2017 metastudy reported that [[North America]] (Includes [[United States]] and [[Canada]]) had a rate of penile cancer cases of .91 people per 100,000 people and Europe had a rate of .90 penile cancer cases per 100,000 people.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref> At the same time, in recent years there has been a very rapid growth of Christianity in [[Eastern Europe]]/[[Central Europe]] (see: [[Central and Eastern Europe and desecularization]]). [[Western Europe]] has a population of about 196,155,565. Central Europe has a population of around 165 million people. Eastern Europe has a population of around 293,000,000.<br /> <br /> == Metastudy on penile cancer and some irreligious/nonreligious countries ==<br /> <br /> A 2017 metastudy on penile cancer reported that: the Socialist Republic of Romania (Marxist-Leninist one-party communist/atheist state) had a 7.2 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 1983- 1987; [[Vietnam]] (Vietnam has state atheism) had a rate of 2.34 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 1991-1993; and [[Sweden]] had a rate of 2.1 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 2000-2012 (Sweden is one of the most atheistic counties in the world and the website adherents.com reported that in 2005 46 - 85% of Swedes were [[agnosticism|agnostics]]/atheists/non-believers in God.<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics(Zuckerman, 2005)]</ref>).<br /> <ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref><br /> <br /> [[Scandinavia]] is considered to consist of the countries of [[Norway]], Sweden, and [[Denmark]]. The male circumcision rate in [[Scandinavia]] is approximately 1-2%.<ref>[http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/pang1/ Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in South Korea: history and underlying causes], BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 89: Pages 48-54, January 2002.</ref><ref>Frisch M, Friis S, Kruger Kjaer S, Melbye M. Falling incidence of penile cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90). Br Med J 1995; 311: 1471</ref> See also: [[Bestiality and Sweden]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and health]]<br /> <br /> *[[The Bible and health]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]<br /> [[Category: Medicine]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheism_and_penile_cancer&diff=1668634 Atheism and penile cancer 2020-07-16T09:24:57Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[File:220px-Mars symbol.svg.png|thumbnail|right|255px|The medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' states:"...in a society where masculinity is defined by and associated with the presence of the phallus, penile cancer affects male self-esteem and may lead to depression. The vexing issue with penile cancer lies in the fact that it is a largely preventable disease, where significant risk factors are modifiable."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref> See also: [[Atheism and cancer]] and [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and self-esteem]] ]] <br /> According to WebMD, "[[Penile cancer]], or [[cancer]] of the penis, is when cells grow out of control on or in a man’s penis."<br /> <br /> There are a number of practices positively correlated to [[atheism]]/irreligion that increases an individuals risk for penile cancer as can be seen below.<br /> <br /> Some of the risk factors related to the development of penile cancer are: lack of male [[circumcision]], sexual [[promiscuity]], [[HPV]] virus, [[AIDS]], [[homosexuality]] (see: [[Homosexuality and penile cancer]]), smoking, [[obesity]], being over the age of 60, and [[bestiality]].<ref><br /> *[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]<br /> *[https://www.webmd.com/cancer/penile-cancer-overview#1 Penile Cancer], WebMD<br /> *[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5844624/#:~:text=Promiscuous%20sexual%20behaviour%20can%20increase,et%20al.%2C%202013). Increased Risk of Penile Cancer among Men Working in Agriculture]'', Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2018; 19(1): 237–241. doi: 10.22034/APJCP.2018.19.1.237<br /> *''[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4944270/#:~:text=Obesity%20was%20significantly%20associated%20with,1.81%2C%20p%20%3C%200.0001). Obesity is associated with increased risk of invasive penile cancer]'' , BMC Urol. 2016; 16: 42. Published online 2016 Jul 13. doi: 10.1186/s12894-016-0161-7<br /> *[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02512.x/abstract Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study]<br /> *[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-bestiality-linked-penile-cancer.html Bestiality linked to penile cancer], Medical Xpress website<br /> *[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> The medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' states:<br /> {{Cquote|...in a society where [[masculinity]] is defined by and associated with the presence of the phallus, penile cancer affects [[male]] [[self-esteem]] and may lead to [[depression]]. The vexing issue with penile cancer lies in the fact that it is a largely preventable disease, where significant risk factors are modifiable."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref>}}<br /> <br /> See also: [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and self-esteem]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, Judaism, United States, South Korea, circumcision and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism, circumcision and penile cancer]] and [[Circumcision]] and [[The Bible and health]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Prophet Moses.jpg|thumb|200px|left|The prophet [[Moses]] authored the book of [[Leviticus]] ]]<br /> Max Neuberger, writing in his "History of Medicine" states concerning the [[Mosaic law]]s: <br /> {{cquote|The commands concern prophylaxis and suppression of epidemics, suppression of venereal disease and prostitution, care of the skin, baths, food, housing and clothing, regulation of labour, sexual life, discipline of the people, etc. Many of these commands, such as Sabbath rest, [[circumcision]], laws concerning food (interdiction of blood and pork), measures concerning menstruating and lying-in women, and those suffering from gonorrhoea, isolation of lepers, and hygiene of the camp, are, in view of the conditions of the climate, surprisingly rational.<ref name="Neuburger, Max 1910, p. 38">Neuburger, Max. History of Medicine. Oxford University Press, 1910, Vol. I, p. 38.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> According to the American Cancer Society:<br /> {{Cquote|Circumcision removes all (or part) of the foreskin. This procedure is most often done in infants, but it can be done later in life, too. Men who were circumcised as children may have a much lower chance of getting penile cancer than those who were not. In fact, some experts say that circumcision as an infant prevents this cancer. The same protective effect is not seen if circumcision is done as an adult.<br /> <br /> The reason for the lower risk in circumcised men is not entirely clear, but it may be related to other known risk factors. For example, men who are circumcised can’t develop the condition called phimosis, and they don’t accumulate material known as smegma (see the next section). Men with smegma or phimosis have an increased risk of penile cancer. The later a man is circumcised, it's more likely that one of these conditions will occur first.<br /> <br /> In weighing the risks and benefits of circumcision, doctors consider the fact that penile cancer is very uncommon in the United States, even in uncircumcised men. Although the American Academy of Pediatrics has stated that the health benefits of circumcision in newborn males outweigh the risks, it also states these benefits are not great enough to recommend that all newborns be routinely circumcised. In the end, decisions about circumcision are highly personal and often depend more on social and religious factors than on medical evidence.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Jewish men, Israel, male circumcision and rarity of penile cancer ===<br /> <br /> The 2017 medical journal article entitled ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis'' published in the ''Revista Panamericana de Salud Pública/Pan American Journal of Public Health'' declared: "In contrast, rates among Jewish men born in Israel are reportedly very close to zero."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref><br /> <br /> === Circumcision and the rarity of penile cancer in the United States and South Korea ===<br /> <br /> The [[United States]] is a religious country (see: [[United States, irreligion vs. religion and demographics]] and [[Sociology of "atheism is un-American" view]] and [[American atheism]]).<br /> <br /> [[Wikipedia]], an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and [[agnosticism|agnostic]], indicated in 2020:<br /> {{Cquote|The United States is an outlier with regards to other predominately Christian Western nations. As of 2007, fifty-five percent of newborn males were circumcised, a significant decline from years past. Countries like Australia and [[Canada]] have much lower rates of circumcision, and the United Kingdom is considering an outright ban.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religious_male_circumcision&oldid=964210795 Religious male circumcision], Wikipedia</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The 2019 medical journal article ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer'' published in ''Biomed Research International'' states: "The overall incidence in the US is approximately 0.69 cases/100,000 people, although this rate increases with an increasing age at diagnosis. In Korea, primary penile cancer is both rare and rarely reported, accounting for only 74 cases in 2015, which corresponded to only 0.03% of all malignant tumors during that year."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457309/ ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer''], Biomed Res Int. 2019; 2019: 6940582. Published online 2019 Mar 26. doi: 10.1155/2019/6940582</ref><br /> <br /> The 2002 journal article entitled ''Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in [[South Korea]]: history and underlying causes'' states:<br /> {{Cquote|Currently the circumcision rate for high-school boys is >90% and for those >70 years old is <10%. The circumcision rate in 1945 was <0.1%. When averaged over the whole population, the present South Korean circumcision rate is ~60%; the rate has increased dramatically with time and particularly in the past 20 years, when the estimated number of male circumcisions has exceeded the number of male births. Although circumcision in South Korea has been strongly influenced by American culture, it has never been predominantly neonatal."<ref>[http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/pang1/ Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in South Korea: history and underlying causes], BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 89: Pages 48-54, January 2002.</ref><ref>Frisch M, Friis S, Kruger Kjaer S, Melbye M. Falling incidence of penile cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90). Br Med J 1995; 311: 1471</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2011, NBC New York reported that penile cancer in the United States was "rare".<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> === Soviet Union and male circumcision ===<br /> [[File:Stalin-140508 27880t.jpg|right|200px|thumb|[[Joseph Stalin]]'s atheistic regime killed tens of millions of people. See also: [[Atheism and Mass Murder|Atheism and mass murder]] ]]<br /> The [[Soviet Union]] practiced [[state atheism]].<br /> <br /> [[Wikipedia]], an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and [[agnosticism|agnostic]], indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Before glasnost, according to an article in The Jewish Press, Jewish ritual circumcision was forbidden in the Soviet Union. However, David E. Fishman, professor of Jewish History at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, states that, whereas the heder and yeshiva, the organs of Jewish education, "were banned by virtue of the law separating church and school, and subjected to tough police and administrative actions," circumcision was not proscribed by law or suppressed by executive measures. Jehoshua A. Gilboa writes that while circumcision was not officially or explicitly banned, pressure was exerted to make it difficult. Mohels in particular were concerned that they could be punished for any health issue that might develop, even if it arose some time after the circumcision.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circumcision_and_law&oldid=965306904 Circumcision and law], Wikipedia</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 1964, A.L. Shabad reported in ''The Journal of Urology'': "In the Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics the incidence of penile cancer has varied in recent years from 0.5 to 1 per cent of cancerous diseases."<ref>[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022534717640345 Some Aspects of Etiology and Prevention of Penile Cancer], Volume 92, Issue 6, December 1964, Pages 696-702</ref> <br /> As noted above, the 2019 medical journal article ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer'' published in ''Biomed Research International'' states: "In Korea, primary penile cancer is both rare and rarely reported, accounting for only 74 cases in 2015, which corresponded to only 0.03% of all malignant tumors during that year."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457309/ ''Single-Center Analysis of Human Papillomavirus Infection and P16INK4A Expression among Korean Patients with Penile Cancer''], Biomed Res Int. 2019; 2019: 6940582. Published online 2019 Mar 26. doi: 10.1155/2019/6940582</ref> (South Korea has adopted the religious United States' practice of male circumcision).<br /> <br /> === Secular Europe and male circumcision ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Secular Europe]]<br /> <br /> From a global perspective, [[Europe]] is more secular/[[Atheism|atheistic]] than the rest of the world although it does have a considerable amount of religious immigrants who have higher birth rates (see: [[Secular Europe]] and [[Atheist population]] and [[Global atheism]]).<br /> <br /> In 2012, the [[BBC]] reported in an article entitled ''Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma'':<br /> {{Cquote|While Europe increasingly questions the practice of circumcising boys, US paediatricians are about to say that the medical case for it is getting stronger. Most US adult men are circumcised, but the number of newborns having the op is falling, and is now below 50% in some states - intensifying the dilemma for parents.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19072761 Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma], BBC</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia founded by an atheist and agnostic, indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|On 1 October 2013, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe adopted a non-binding resolution in which they state they are "particularly worried about a category of violation of the physical integrity of children," and included in this category "circumcision of young boys for religious reasons." On 7 October, Israel's president Shimon Peres wrote a personal missive to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, Thorbjørn Jagland, to stop the ban, arguing: "The Jewish communities across Europe would be greatly afflicted to see their cultural and religious freedom impeded upon by the Council of Europe, an institution devoted to the protection of these very rights." Two days later, Jagland clarified that the resolution was non-binding and that “Nothing in the body of our legally binding standards would lead us to put on equal footing the issue of female genital mutilation and the circumcision of young boys for religious reasons.”<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circumcision_and_law&oldid=965306904 Circumcision and law], Wikipedia</ref>}}<br /> <br /> A number of male circumcision bans have been proposed by various Europeans.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circumcision_and_law&oldid=965306904 Circumcision and law], Wikipedia</ref><br /> <br /> === England/Wales/United States/Australia, male circumcision and penile cancer ===<br /> [[Image:England.gif|right|thumb|200px|A study reported that [[England]] and [[Wales]] had the highest incidence and mortality rates of penile cancer compared to Australia and US and also the lowest infant circumcision rates and overall circumcision prevalence.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536252/ Trends in penile cancer: a comparative study between Australia, England and Wales, and the US], Springerplus. 2015; 4: 420. Published online 2015 Aug 14. doi: 10.1186/s40064-015-1191-4</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> England (highlighted in light green), showing the boundaries of the ceremonial counties.]]<br /> As noted above, the United States is a religious country (see: [[United States, irreligion vs. religion and demographics]] and [[Sociology of "atheism is un-American" view]] and [[American atheism]]).<br /> <br /> The [[UK]] and [[Australia]] are more irreligious/nonreligious than the United States (see: [[British atheism]] and [[UK and secularism]] and [[Irreligion in Australia]]).<br /> <br /> The 2015 journal article ''Trends in penile cancer: a comparative study between Australia, England and Wales, and the US'' reported:<br /> {{Cquote|The overall incidence of penile cancer in England and Wales (1.44 per 100,000 man-years) was higher than in Australia (0.80 per 100,000), and the US (0.66 per 100,000). Incidence of penile cancer in all three countries has remained relatively stable over time. Similarly, although the mortality rates were also higher in England and Wales (0.37 per 100,000 man-years) compared to Australia (0.18 per 100,000) and the US (0.15 per 100,000), the mortality/incidence ratios were similar for all three countries.<br /> <br /> [[England]] and [[Wales]] had the highest incidence and mortality rates of penile cancer compared to Australia and US and also the lowest infant circumcision rates and overall circumcision prevalence. This offers some support to previous data suggesting infant circumcision may reduce risk of penile cancer. However, despite having higher circumcision rates in the US, the incidence of penile cancer in Australia and the US were similar, suggesting that the penile cancer incidence is not solely attributable to circumcision rates.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536252/ Trends in penile cancer: a comparative study between Australia, England and Wales, and the US], Springerplus. 2015; 4: 420. Published online 2015 Aug 14. doi: 10.1186/s40064-015-1191-4</ref>}}<br /> <br /> See also: [[Atheism, bestiality and penile cancer]] and [[Bestiality and Britain]] and [[Bestiality and Australia]]<br /> <br /> === Irreligious Sweden, circumcision and penile cancer ===<br /> <br /> [[Sweden]] had a rate of 2.1 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 2000-2012 (Sweden is one of the most atheistic counties in the world and the website adherents.com reported that in 2005 46 - 85% of Swedes were [[agnosticism|agnostics]]/atheists/non-believers in God.<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics(Zuckerman, 2005)]</ref>).<br /> <ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref><br /> <br /> [[Scandinavia]] is considered to consist of the countries of [[Norway]], Sweden, and [[Denmark]]. The male circumcision rate in [[Scandinavia]] is approximately 1-2%.<ref>[http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/pang1/ Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in South Korea: history and underlying causes], BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 89: Pages 48-54, January 2002.</ref><ref>Frisch M, Friis S, Kruger Kjaer S, Melbye M. Falling incidence of penile cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90). Br Med J 1995; 311: 1471</ref> See also: [[Bestiality and Sweden]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism, promiscuity and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and sexual immorality articles]] and [[Atheism and morality]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Flag of Denmark.png|left|200px|thumbnail|[[Denmark]] is the third most [[Atheism|atheistic]] country in the world and the website adherents.com reports that 43 - 80% of Danes are [[agnosticism|agnostics]]/atheists/non-believers in God.<ref name="Top 50">[http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf "Top 50 countries with highest proportion of atheists/agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)"]. Chris and Terri Chapman. Retrieved on September 10, 2014.</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> In 2009, Suzanne Ost reported in her book published by Cambridge University Press, that the [[Atheism and child pornography|child pornography]] material produced in [[Denmark]] (and Holland) still constituted the largest part of child pornography that was currently available, having been transferred into digital format and uploaded onto the internet.<ref>Ost, Suzanne (2009). ''Child Pornography and Sexual Grooming: Legal and Societal Responses'' (Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press), p. 29.</ref> See: [[Atheism and child pornography]] ]]<br /> [[HPV|Human papillomavirus]] (HPV) is positively correlated to promiscuity and penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> In 2018, the ''Asian Pacific Journal of Cancer Prevention'' indicated in "Promiscuous sexual behaviour can increase the chance of HPV infection and was also associated with increased risk of penile cancer (Madsen et al., 2008; Chaux et al., 2013)."<ref>''[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5844624/#:~:text=Promiscuous%20sexual%20behaviour%20can%20increase,et%20al.%2C%202013). Increased Risk of Penile Cancer among Men Working in Agriculture]'', Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2018; 19(1): 237–241. doi: 10.22034/APJCP.2018.19.1.237</ref><br /> <br /> A Quartz website article indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|Evidence suggests that [https://theconversation.com/religiosity-about-reproduction-more-than-cooperation-18935 religion and sexual behavior are often linked]. Many major religions, such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some traditional religions, promote lifestyles emphasizing fidelity and underscoring the importance of caring for one’s family. And a large body of research suggests that such religions may be especially attractive to people who value such commitments—perhaps precisely because those religions help to reinforce their own lifestyle choices...<br /> <br /> Still, knowing the perceived connection between faith and sexual commitment, we suspected that people may see atheists, relative to believers, as less likely to endorse values like monogamy and caring for one’s family—values associated with being sexually committed.<br /> <br /> In such people’s minds, sexually uncommitted behavior is linked to several other traits and social behavior, such as opportunism and being impulsive—traits that hardly inspire trust<br /> <ref>[https://qz.com/1776715/research-shows-atheists-are-trusted-less-than-religious-people/ Intense prejudice exists against atheists in the US] by By Jaimie Arona Krems & Jordan W. Moon, December 28, 2019, Quartz website</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The [[Barna Group]] found that atheists and [[agnostics]] in America were more likely, than [[theist]]s in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: [[Illegal drugs|illegal drug use]]; excessive drinking; sexual relationships [[fornication|outside of marriage]]; [[abortion]]; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; [[Profanity|obscene language]]; gambling; [[pornography]] and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in [[homosexuality]]/[[bisexuality]].<ref>[http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/58-practical-outcomes-replace-biblical-principles-as-the-moral-standard Practical Outcomes Replace Biblical Principles As the Moral Standard], Barna Goup</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism, homosexuality, AIDS and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexuality and penile cancer]] and [[Atheism and homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Stephen-Fry.jpg|thumbnail|250px|right|[[Stephen Fry]] is an [[atheist]] and a [[homosexual]]. See also: [[Homosexuality and obesity]] and [[Atheism and obesity]] ]]<br /> <br /> [[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> [[AIDS]]/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men.<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The [[conservative]] journalist [[Peter LaBarbera]] of [[Americans for Truth]] wrote: "Anyone who has researched the subject of [[homosexuality]] knows that many of the most staunch advocates of homosexuality are those who hold a decidedly secular outlook."<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2008/05/03/homosexuality-and-atheism/ Atheism and homosexuality]</ref> <br /> <br /> Given the [[Homosexuality and health|many diseases associated with homosexuality]], the [[Bible|biblical]] prohibition against homosexuality is quite arguably one of the [http://creationwiki.org/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge many examples where the Bible exhibited knowledge that was ahead of its time]. <br /> <br /> At the same time, atheistic [[communism|communist]] regimes in history historically have often taken a negative view of homosexuality and within [[Western World]] atheism, there is a segment of that [[atheist population]] which takes a negative view of homosexuality (See: [[Atheism and the persecution of homosexuals]]). <br /> <br /> As noted above, the [[Barna Group]] found regarding [[Atheism and morality|atheism and morality]] that those who hold to the worldviews of [[atheism]] or [[agnosticism]] in America were more likely, than theists in America, to look upon the following behaviors as morally acceptable: [[Illegal drugs|illegal drug use]]; excessive drinking; sexual relationships [[fornication|outside of marriage]]; [[abortion]]; cohabitating with someone of opposite sex outside of marriage; [[Profanity|obscene language]]; gambling; [[pornography]] and obscene sexual behavior; and engaging in [[homosexuality]]/[[bisexuality]].<ref>http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/58-practical-outcomes-replace-biblical-principles-as-the-moral-standard</ref> <br /> <br /> [[Soviet Union]] founder [[Vladimir Lenin]], a militant atheist, had a homosexual relationship with Cheka leader [[Grigory Zinoviev]].<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEzejRkT78A&feature=youtu.be</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism/irreligion, smoking and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and smoking]]<br /> [[File:Paris street photo of a man smoking.jpg|thumbnail|left|250px|[[Paris]] street photo of a man smoking. <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> In 2015, according to survey data, 29% of [[France]]'s population identified as atheists and 63% identified as non-religious.<ref name="obs2015">[http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2015/01/18/carte-latheisme-monde-france-numero-4-257171 La carte de l’athéisme dans le monde : la France numéro 4], L'Obs, 2015</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> Tourists visiting France often cite smoking as the first culture shock they experience.<ref>[https://www.thelocal.fr/20170502/smoking-france-cigarettes-do-french-really-smoke- The French and smoking: Is France really 'Europe's chimney']</ref> A survey by travel website Tripadvisor reported that users found that France was by far the "smokiest" country in the world.<ref>[https://www.thelocal.fr/20170502/smoking-france-cigarettes-do-french-really-smoke- The French and smoking: Is France really 'Europe's chimney']</ref> See also: [[Atheism and smoking]] ]]<br /> Smoking is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> The abstract of the 2012 ''International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine'' journal article entitled ''Religion and smoking: a review of recent literature'' indicates: <br /> {{Cquote|Tobacco smoking and exposure to secondhand smoke are a major threat to human health worldwide. The effort to prevent tobacco use should be regarded as an important public health strategy. Given the significance of religion and spirituality in the daily life of more than 90% of the world's population, the relationship of religion and smoking should be seen as a critical research area. Religions are many and varied, but most value human well-being highly and so do not approve of tobacco use, even though they do not prohibit it entirely. In recent years, researchers have shown more interest in the subject of religion and health, including drug and tobacco use. Differences of focus and methodology notwithstanding, most studies have ascertained a deterrent role for religion as regards tobacco use, and several mechanisms have been proposed to explain the negative relationship between religion or spirituality and smoking.<ref>[Religion and smoking: a review of recent literature.] by Garrusi B1, Nakhaee N., ''International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine'' , 2012;43(3):279-92.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The 2017 journal article ''Smoking and Religion: Untangling Associations Using English Survey Data'' published in the ''Journal of Religion and Health'' indicates: "Highest levels of smoking characterise people not professing any religion... An association between smoking and the absence of a religious affiliation is sustained. An understanding of the association between smoking and religion is essential to the development of tobacco control programmes."<ref>*[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28667475 Smoking and Religion: Untangling Associations Using English Survey Data], J Relig Health. 2017</ref><br /> <br /> == Atheism, obesity and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and obesity]]<br /> [[File:China on globe.png|thumbnail|200px|right|[[China]] has the largest atheist population in the world.<ref><br /> *[http://www.thechapmans.nl/news/Atheist.pdf Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)]<br /> *[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], ''Washington Post'' By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey May 23, 2013</ref> In 2014, the British medical journal'' Lancet'' reported that the Chinese now have the second highest obesity rate in the world.<ref>[https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/05/29/as-obesity-rises-chinese-kids-are-almost-as-fat-as-americans/ As Obesity Rises, Chinese Kids Are Almost as Fat as Americans], ''Wall Street Journal'' Chinarealtime, May 29, 2014</ref><ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgJvV62yD2E Chubby China: Nation of 300 Million Overweight People]</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> A recent study published in the ''Obesity Reviews'' journal, found that Chinese teenagers' rate of [[diabetes]] was four times that of their [[United States|American]] peers.<ref>[http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-09/14/content_26521029.htm Obesity is a growing concern in China] By Pang Li, China.org.cn, September 14, 2012</ref>]]<br /> The 2016 medical journal article ''Obesity is associated with increased risk of invasive penile cancer'' indicates: "Obesity was significantly associated with an increased risk of developing penile cancer. For every five-unit increase in BMI the risk of invasive penile cancer increased by 53 % (OR 1.53, 95 % CI 1.29-1.81, p < 0.0001)".<ref>''[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4944270/#:~:text=Obesity%20was%20significantly%20associated%20with,1.81%2C%20p%20%3C%200.0001). Obesity is associated with increased risk of invasive penile cancer]'' , BMC Urol. 2016; 16: 42. Published online 2016 Jul 13. doi: 10.1186/s12894-016-0161-7</ref><br /> <br /> The current [[atheist population]] mostly resides in [[East Asia]] (particularly [[China]]) and in [[secular Europe]]/[[Australia]] primarily among whites.<ref>[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey, ''Washington Post'', May 23, 2013</ref> Most [[atheism|atheists]] are [[East Asia]]ns (see: [[Asian atheism]]). See: [[Global atheism]] and [[Western atheism and race]] <br /> <br /> Secular Europe and communist [[China]] have significant problems with obesity (see: [[Secular Europe and obesity]] and [[China and obesity]]). In addition, [[Australia]] has a significant problem with obesity (see: [[Australia, irreligion and obesity]]). <br /> <br /> In the [[United States]] at the present time, the greater the degree of irreligiosity in a generation, the [[Atheism and obesity#Irreligion/religion, generations in the United States and obesity|higher their obesity rate is]]. <br /> <br /> According to the [[Gallup poll|Gallup Inc.]], "Very religious Americans are more likely to practice healthy behaviors than those who are moderately religious or nonreligious."<ref>[http://www.gallup.com/poll/145379/Religious-Americans-Lead-Healthier-Lives.aspx Very Religious Americans Lead Healthier Lives], Gallup Poll, 2010</ref><br /> <br /> Gallup declared concerning the study which measured the degree to which religiosity affects health practices: "[[Generalized linear model]] analysis was used to estimate marginal scores all five reported metrics after controlling for age (in years), gender, race/ethnicity, marital status, education (number of years), log of income, and region of the country... Results are based on telephone interviews conducted as part of the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index survey Jan. 2-July 28, 2010, with a random sample of 554,066 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia, selected using random-digit-dial sampling.<ref>[http://www.gallup.com/poll/145379/Religious-Americans-Lead-Healthier-Lives.aspx Very Religious Americans Lead Healthier Lives], Gallup Poll, 2010</ref><br /> <br /> == Global atheism, aging populations and penile cancer ==<br /> [[File: Blue Marble.jpg|right|200px|thumbnail|[[Atheism]] is in [[Global atheism|decline worldwide]], with the number of atheists falling from 4.5% of the world's population in 1970 to 2.0% in 2010 and projected to drop to 1.8% by 2020.<ref>[https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/global-study-atheists-decline-only-18-world-population-2020 Global Study: Atheists in Decline, Only 1.8% of World Population by 2020]</ref> See: [[Global atheism statistics]] ]]<br /> ''See also:'' [[Global atheism and aging populations]]<br /> <br /> As noted above, one of the risk factors for penile cancer is being over 60 years old.<ref>[https://www.webmd.com/cancer/penile-cancer-overview#1 Penile Cancer], WebMD</ref><br /> <br /> The current global [[Atheist Population|atheist population]] mostly resides in [[East Asia]] (particularly China) and in secular Europe/Australia primarily among whites.<ref>[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live], By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey, ''Washington Post'', May 23, 2013</ref> See: [[Global atheism]]<br /> <br /> 2.1 births per woman is a replacement level of births in a society. Atheists have a below replacement level of fertility (See: [[Atheism and fertility rates]]). <br /> <br /> As a result of having a below replacement level of births, [[global atheism]] is facing significant challenges in terms of aging populations in [[East Asia]] and [[Europe]] and atheism is expected to shrink in terms of its market share of the world's population (see: [[Global atheism and aging populations]] and [[Desecularization and aging populations]] and [[Desecularization]] and [[Causes of desecularization]]).<br /> <br /> On the other hand, there are studies that show the religious people live longer (see: [[Atheism and life expectancy]]).<br /> <br /> == Atheism, bestiality and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism, bestiality and penile cancer]] and [[Atheism and bestiality]] and [[Bestiality and Britain]] and [[Bestiality and Sweden]]<br /> <br /> [[File:Europe map.png|thumbnail|200px|left|There is a positive correlation between engaging in bestiality and penile cancer.<ref>[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02512.x/abstract Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study]</ref><ref>[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-bestiality-linked-penile-cancer.html Bestiality linked to penile cancer], Medical Xpress website</ref><ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref> <br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> The United States is far more religious than [[secular Europe]] (see: [[Global atheism]] and [[American atheism]]). Secular Europe recently had a notable problem with bestiality (see: [[Bestiality and secular Europe]]).<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> A 2014 study found that the incidence rate of penile cancer in the USA is 0.58 per 100,000. In Europe, the incidence rate of the disease is 1.33 per 100,000.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> A Brazilian medical study found that men who engaged in bestiality were twice as likely to develop penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref>]]<br /> In areas of the [[Western World]] where there is a significant amount of [[atheism|atheists]], there have been notable problems related to [[bestiality]] (see: [[Bestiality and various geographic areas]] and [[Atheism and bestiality]]).<br /> <br /> A 2015 ''Jerusalem Post'' article indicates "[[Copenhagen]] has for long been the bestiality capital of Europe and has attracted many tourists mainly visiting to have sex with animals. Legislation against this practice was only enacted this year."<ref>[https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Suggestions-for-the-anti-Semitic-slurs-list-434293 Suggestions for the anti-Semitic slurs list] by MANFRED GERSTENFELD, ''Jerusalem Post'', 2015</ref><br /> <br /> ''Vice News'', a global news channel which broadcasts documentaries about current topics, reported in 2014 concerning [[secular Europe]]:<br /> {{cquote|Bestiality is having a weird renaissance in Europe. Perhaps ironically, it kicked off when activists succeeded in banning the practice in places like Germany and Norway. In the background, something else emerged simultaneously: an animal-sex-tourism industry, which has been blossoming in Denmark.<ref>[http://examiningatheism.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-problem-of-irreligious-engaging-in.html Secular Europe's weird bestiality renaissance]</ref>}} <br /> <br /> The journal article ''Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study'' points out that bestiality is positively correlated to penile cancer.<br /> <ref>[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02512.x/abstract Sex with Animals (SWA): Behavioral Characteristics and Possible Association with Penile Cancer. A Multicenter Study]</ref> <br /> <br /> According to the Medical Xpress website:<br /> {{Cquote|The new study, published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine, finds a link between bestiality and penile cancer.<br /> <br /> The study, led by urologist Stenio de Cassio Zequi in San Paulo, looked at 492 men from rural Brazil. The men participating ranged in age from 18 to 80. Of the 492 men, 118 had been diagnosed with penile cancer.<br /> <br /> Of the 188 men with penile cancer, 45 percent had sexual relations with animals compared with 32 percent of the healthy males. Of those men who had sexual relations with animals, 59 percent reported having sex with animals for one to five years and 21 percent had been doing it for more than five years.<br /> <br /> Sexual interaction occurred as often as daily and included animals such as horses, cows, pigs and chickens.<br /> <br /> Researchers believe that sexual interaction between humans and animals may produce micro-traumas in the penis such as scratches and cuts. They theorize that animal secretions may be toxic to humans and that some unrecognized microorganism may be responsible for the cause of penile cancer.<ref>[https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-bestiality-linked-penile-cancer.html Bestiality linked to penile cancer], Medical Xpress website</ref>}}<br /> <br /> NBC New York reported:<br /> {{Cquote|In a study of 492 men from rural Brazil, 35 percent reprted having had sex with an animal at men who had sex some point in their lives. The report found those men were twice as likely to develop cancer of the penis.<br /> <br /> The paper was authored by a team of urologists from centers around Brazil and studied men from age 18 to 80. Men who had had sex with animals also reported a higher incidence of sexually transmitted diseases. Of the 118 penile cancer patients, 45 percent reported having had sex with animals, compared to 32 percent of healthy men. Fifty-nine percent of men who had sex with animals did so for one to five years, while 21 percent continued the behavior, also known as zoophilia, for more than five years.<br /> <br /> Men reported having sex as frequently as daily with such animals as mares, cows, pigs and and chickens. Penile cancer accounts for up to 10 percent of cancers in men in Asia, Africa and South America, although it is rare in the U.S.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Atheism, self-esteem, depression and penile cancer ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and depression]] and [[Atheism and self-esteem]]<br /> [[File:Sadness.jpg‎|thumb|right|250px|[[Atheism|Atheists]] have higher rates of suicide than the general population.<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><ref>http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html</ref><ref>http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303</ref> Please see: [[Atheism and suicide]] ]] <br /> As noted above, the medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' states: <br /> {{Cquote|...in a society where masculinity is defined by and associated with the presence of the phallus, penile cancer affects male self-esteem and may lead to depression. The vexing issue with penile cancer lies in the fact that it is a largely preventable disease, where significant risk factors are modifiable."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ''The Telegraph'' reported: "Patients with a strong “intrinsic faith” (a deep personal belief, not just a social inclination to go to a place of worship) recover 70 per cent faster from depression than those who are not deeply religious."<ref>[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10914137/What-God-does-to-your-brain.html What God does to your brain] by Julia Llewellyn Smith. ''The Telegraph'', 20 Jun 2014</ref><br /> <br /> Concerning [[atheism and depression]], a University of Michigan study involving 19,775 individuals found that [[religion|religious]] people are less likely than [[atheism|atheists]] to suffer [[depression]] when they are lonely.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6136603/Lonely-religious-people-depressed-God-friend.html Lonely religious people are less depressed than atheists because they see God as a friend replacement, study finds], ''Daily Mail'', 2018</ref> See also: [[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> <br /> There are preliminary studies indicating that individuals who reject [[Christianity]] in Western cultures have lower self-esteem than the Christian population.<ref>[http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/rejection-of-christianity-and-self.html Rejection of atheism and self-esteem]</ref><ref>[http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/atheists-and-self-esteem-part-2.html Atheism and self-esteem - part 2]</ref> There are also studies indicating that lower self-esteem is associated with suicidality.<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21190929</ref><ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><br /> Atheists have [[Atheism and suicide|higher rates of suicide than the general population.]]<ref>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20602903</ref><ref>http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html</ref><ref>http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303</ref> At the same time, there is a significant portion of the atheist population who suffer from excess self-esteem/[[pride]] issues (see: [[Atheism and arrogance]]).<br /> <br /> == Study: Secular Europe has about twice the rate of penile cancer than the religious United States ==<br /> <br /> [[Image:Irving Berlin.jpg|left|thumb|200px|[[Irving Berlin]]'s song God Bless America is a popular American patriotic song written by Berlin in 1918. See: [[Sociology of "atheism is un-American" view]] and [[American atheism]]]]<br /> <br /> [[Secular Europe]] recently had a notable problem with bestiality (see: [[Bestiality and secular Europe]]).<br /> <br /> As noted above, there is a positive correlation between engaging in bestiality and penile cancer. <br /> <br /> In the United States, Pew Research survey data indicates that the percentage of atheists in the United States has remained at 4% from 2015 to July 2019.<ref>[https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace], Pew Research</ref> See: [[American atheism]]<br /> <br /> The 2017 medical journal article entitled ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis'' published in the ''Revista Panamericana de Salud Pública/Pan American Journal of Public Health'' indicated: "Penile cancer is a rare malignancy, especially in developed countries, in which the annual incidence is below 1 case per 100,000 men."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref> <br /> <br /> As noted above, penile cancer is rare in the United States.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> The 2014 medical journal article ''Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer'' which was published in the W''est Indian Medical Journal'' indicates: "The incidence rate of penile cancer in the USA is 0.58 per 100,000. In Europe, the incidence rate of the disease is 1.33 per 100,000."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663967/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,per%20100%20000%20(1). Risk Factors and Prevalence of Penile Cancer], West Indian Med Journal. 2014 Oct; 63(6): 559–560, Published online 2015 Jul 28. doi: 10.7727/wimj.2015.381</ref><br /> <br /> The Brazilian study noted above, indicates that men who engage in bestiality have twice the rate of penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/study-links-bestiality-penile-cancer/1932492/ Study Links Bestiality, Penile Cancer], NBC New York</ref><br /> <br /> On the other hand, a 2017 metastudy reported that [[North America]] (Includes [[United States]] and [[Canada]]) had a rate of penile cancer cases of .91 people per 100,000 people and Europe had a rate of .90 penile cancer cases per 100,000 people.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref> At the same time, in recent years there has been a very rapid growth of Christianity in [[Eastern Europe]]/[[Central Europe]] (see: [[Central and Eastern Europe and desecularization]]). [[Western Europe]] has a population of about 196,155,565. Central Europe has a population of around 165 million people. Eastern Europe has a population of around 293,000,000.<br /> <br /> == Metastudy on penile cancer and some irreligious/nonreligious countries ==<br /> <br /> A 2017 metastudy on penile cancer reported that: the Socialist Republic of Romania (Marxist-Leninist one-party communist/atheist state) had a 7.2 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 1983- 1987; [[Vietnam]] (Vietnam has state atheism) had a rate of 2.34 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 1991-1993; and [[Sweden]] had a rate of 2.1 people with penile cancer per 100,000 people between the years of 2000-2012 (Sweden is one of the most atheistic counties in the world and the website adherents.com reported that in 2005 46 - 85% of Swedes were [[agnosticism|agnostics]]/atheists/non-believers in God.<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics(Zuckerman, 2005)]</ref>).<br /> <ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6645409/ ''Incidence of penile cancer worldwide: systematic review and meta-analysis''], Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2017; 41: e117. Published online 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.26633/RPSP.2017.117</ref><br /> <br /> [[Scandinavia]] is considered to consist of the countries of [[Norway]], Sweden, and [[Denmark]]. The male circumcision rate in [[Scandinavia]] is approximately 1-2%.<ref>[http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/pang1/ Extraordinarily high rates of male circumcision in South Korea: history and underlying causes], BJU INTERNATIONAL, Volume 89: Pages 48-54, January 2002.</ref><ref>Frisch M, Friis S, Kruger Kjaer S, Melbye M. Falling incidence of penile cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90). Br Med J 1995; 311: 1471</ref> See also: [[Bestiality and Sweden]]<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and cancer]]<br /> <br /> *[[Atheism and health]]<br /> <br /> *[[The Bible and health]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> [[Category: Atheism]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]<br /> [[Category: Medicine]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality&diff=1665593 Homosexuality 2020-07-06T16:21:05Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* Homosexuality and Anal Cancer */</p> <hr /> <div><br /> {{Homosexuality}}<br /> '''Homosexuality''' is the condition of "sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex."<ref>http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homosexuality</ref> <br /> <br /> [[Causes of Homosexuality|Homosexuality has a number of causal factors]] that influence its origination in individuals; these factors will be addressed shortly. In addition, homosexuality has a variety of effects on individuals and [[society]]. Next, some of the historical events, [[Religion|religious]] matters, and [[law|legal]] matters relating to homosexuality will be covered. Finally, there is a [[Homosexuality Research|large body of research]] on the [[Causes of Homosexuality|causes]] and effects of homosexuality.<br /> == Biblical statements about homosexuality ==<br /> [[File:Prophet Moses.jpg|thumb|160px|left|The prophet [[Moses]] authored the book of [[Leviticus]] ]]<br /> For more information please see: [[Homosexuality and biblical interpretation]] and [[Homosexuality and the Bible]] and [[Atheism and homosexuality]] and [[Atheism and the persecution of homosexuals]]<br /> <br /> Below are several [[Bible]] verses that condemn homosexuality: <br /> * [[Leviticus]] 18:22 - You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.<br /> * [[Leviticus]] 20:13 - If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their [[blood]] guiltiness is upon them.<br /> * [[Romans]] 1:26-27 - For this reason [[God]] gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.<br /> * [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NASB I Corinthians 6:9-10] (NASB) - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.<br /> *[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I%20Timothy%201:8-11;&version=49; I Timothy 1:8-11 (NASB)] - "But we know that the [[Mosaic Law|Law]] is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and [[sin|sinners]], for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed [[God]], with which I have been entrusted."<br /> <br /> In addition, there are numerous other references that also condemn the lifestyle, such as 1 Kings 22:46 (NASB): "The remnant of the sodomites who remained in the days of his father Asa, he expelled from the land."<br /> <br /> __TOC__<br /> <br /> == Homosexuality - Genetics, Religious Upbringing, Culture, Sexual Abuse, and Choice ==<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [[Causes of Homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> [[Image:325979 dna150.jpg|thumbnail|150px|left|[[Columbia University]] [[psychiatry]] professors Drs. William Byrne and Bruce Parsons stated: "There is no evidence that at present to substantiate a [[biology|biological]] theory. [T]he appeal of current biological explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of [[psychosocial]] explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data".]]<br /> ===Terminology===<br /> Homosexuality is sometimes also defined in terms of an attraction, preference, orientation, or [[sexual identity|identity]]. The term "orientation" is particularly favored by those who are promoting public acceptance of homosexuality.<ref>"Today a person is often said to have a homosexual or a heterosexual orientation, a description intended to defuse some of the long-standing sentiment among many [[Western World|Westerners]] that homosexuality is immoral or [[Pathology|pathological]]." Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed., 2001-2005 [http://www.bartleby.com/65/ho/homosexu.html]</ref><br /> <br /> ===Genetics and Claims of the immutability of homosexuality===<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality and Genetics]]<br /> <br /> A common argument is that an inclination to homosexuality is inborn and immutable. It is widely believed that the public will become more accepting of homosexuality if they are convinced that it is inborn and immutable. For example, [[Neuroscience|neuroscientist]] and homosexual Simon Levay stated: "...people who think that gays and lesbians are born that way are also more likely to support gay rights."<ref>[http://www.truenews.org/Homosexuality/homosexual_myths_and_facts.html Myths and facts about homosexuality]</ref><br /> <br /> Eight major studies of identical twins in the United States, Australia and Scandinavia during the last two decades indicate that homosexuals were not born that way.<ref>[http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2013/06/identical-twin-studies-prove-homosexuality-is-not-genetic/ Identical Twin Studies Prove Homosexuality is Not Genetic]</ref> [[Causes of Homosexuality|Research into the issue of the origins of homosexuality]] suggests that adoptive brothers are more likely to both be homosexuals than the biological brothers, who share half their [[gene]]s which suggests that homosexuality is not genetically caused. <ref>(''Science'', Vol. 262, page 2063, December 24, 1993)</ref><ref>http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp</ref> The past research on the cause or causes of homosexuality prompted the journal ''Science'' to report "this . . . suggests that there is no genetic component, but rather an environmental component shared in families".<ref>(''Science'', Vol. 262, page 2063, December 24, 1993)</ref><ref>http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp</ref> However, in regards to [[psychosocial]] and biological theories in regards to the origin of homosexuality, [[Columbia University]] [[psychiatry]] professors Drs. William Byrne and Bruce Parsons stated in 1994: "There is no evidence that at present to substantiate a [[biology|biological]] theory. [T]he appeal of current biological explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data".<ref>http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf</ref><br /> <br /> Dr. Tahir I. Jaz, M.D., Winnipeg, Canada states: "The increasing claims of being "[[Homosexuality and Genetics|born that way]]" parallels the rising political activism of homosexual organizations, who politicize the issue of homosexual origins. In the 1970s, approximately ten percent of homosexuals claimed to be "born homosexual" according to a large scale survey....However, in a survey in the 1980s, with the homosexual rights movement increasingly becoming active, thirty-five percent claimed to be born that way.<ref>http://www.flyfishingdevon.co.uk/salmon/year2/hormones/tahir.htm</ref><br /> <br /> ===Religious Upbringing and Culture Affecting Rates of Homosexuality===<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Religious Upbringing and Culture Affects Rates of Homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> Dr. Neil Whitehead is a research scientist and [[biochemistry|biochemist]] from [[New Zealand]] and his wife Briar Whitehead is a writer.<ref>[https://www.mygenes.co.nz/about_us.html About Us: My Genes Made Me Do It website ]</ref> Dr. Whitehead coauthored a book with with his wife entitled ''My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation'' which argues that there is no [[gene]]tic determinism in regards to homosexuality (homosexuals are "not born that way") and that there is abundant documentation that individuals are able to leave homosexuality and become heterosexuals.<ref>http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm</ref> <br /> [[File:70810564 64d3a67932.jpg|right|170px|thumb|Homosexuality appears to be rare in [[Orthodox Judaism|Orthodox Jews]].]]<br /> Dr. Whitehead and Briar Whitehead declared:<br /> {{Cquote|If homosexuality were significantly influenced by [[gene]]s, it would appear in every culture, but in twenty-nine of seventy-nine cultures surveyed by Ford and Beach in 1952, homosexuality was rare or absent. It was very rare in the Siriono, even though there were no prohibitions on homosexual relationships in that culture. The researcher observed only one man displaying slight homosexual traits but apparently not sexually involved with another man. Homosexuality appears to be rare among [[Orthodox Judaism|Orthodox Jews]] [Orthodox Judaism forbids homosexuality], so much so that learned rabbis, the interpreters of [[Judaism|Jewish]] law, usually allowed men to sleep in the same bed, because likelihood of sexual contact was considered negligible. [[Alfred Kinsey|Kinsey]] also found very low homosexual incidence among Orthodox Jews...<br /> <br /> This evidence comes from missionaries who commonly spend 25 years of their lives living in one culture, far more than almost any anthropologist....Overall they can be considered as reliable witnesses. For example, in contrast to groups like the Sambia in the [[New Guinea]] highlands, where homosexuality was compulsory, only about 2-3 percent of Western Dani (also in the New Guinea highlands) practiced it. However, in another group of Dani who were genetically related, homosexuality was totally unknown. Missionaries report that when they were translating the [[Bible]] into Dani for this group, their tribal assistants, who knew their own culture intimately, were nonplused by references to homosexuality in [[Romans]] 1; they did not understand the concept. Another missionary, with the same group for 25 years, overheard many jests and sexually ribald exchanges among the men, but never a single mention of homosexuality in all that time. When Dani went to help with missionary work among the Sambia, they were astounded at some of the homosexual practices they saw for the first time. Although it is always difficult for a foreigner to be completely sure whether a rare and stigmatized behavior exists, it is certainly true that if three such different experiences of homosexuality can occur in groups of people so closely related genetically, genetically enforced homosexuality is an impossibility.<ref>[http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead - Chapter 6]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Martin Luther King viewed homosexuality as a problem ===<br /> <br /> The religious leader and [[civil rights]] leader [[Martin Luther King]] (MLK) never championed the [[homosexual agenda]]. In fact, MLK saw homosexuality as probably a culturally induced "problem" and he believed that homosexuals could become [[ex-homosexuals]]. (see: [[Overcoming homosexuality]]).<ref>[http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/mlk-homosexuality-a-problem-with-a-solution/ MLK: Homosexuality a 'problem' with a 'solution']</ref> <br /> <br /> King wrote in a 1958 column: “The type of feeling that you have toward boys is probably not an innate tendency, but something that has been culturally acquired,” . “You are already on the right road toward a solution, since you honestly recognize the problem and have a desire to solve it.”<ref>[http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/mlk-homosexuality-a-problem-with-a-solution/ MLK: Homosexuality a 'problem' with a 'solution']</ref><br /> <br /> === Rates of homosexuality: Childhoods in urban vs. non-urban areas ===<br /> In 1994, the book ''Sex in America: A definitive survey'' by Robert T. Michael, John H. Gagnon, Edward O. Laumann, and Gina Kolata stated the following:<br /> {{Cquote|We discovered that people who were raised in large cities were more likely to be homosexual than people who were raised in suburb, towns, or the countryside. This relationship also showed up in the General Social Survey, an independent national sample.<ref>''Sex in America: A definitive survey'' by Robert T. Michael, John H. Gagnon, Edward O. Laumann, and Gina Kolata, Boston, Little, Brown, 1994, page 182</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The aforementioned authors Dr. Whitehead and Briar Whitehead similarly wrote:<br /> {{Cquote|There is a much higher incidence of homosexuality among those who have been raised in large cities, rather than in rural areas, arguing that the environment is much more powerful than genes in the development of homosexuality.<ref>http://www.mygenes.co.nz/summary.htm</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality: Experiments Fail to Show Genetic Determinism ===<br /> <br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Failure of Experiments to Show Genetic Determinism For Homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> Dr. Dean Hamer is a researcher often cited to show that there is empirical data supporting the notion of genetic [[determinism]] in regards to homosexuality. News organizations like [[National Public Radio]] and [[Newsweek]] have done news stories regarding his work.<ref>[https://www.the-scientist.com/critic-at-large/going-beyond-the-lab-37247 Going Beyond the Lab], ''The Scientist''</ref> In respect to the press trumpeting various findings genetics-of-behavior research uncritically the science journal ''Science'' stated the following in 1994:<br /> {{Cquote|Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or [[chromosome|chromosomal]] regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated. "Unfortunately," says Yale's [Dr. Joel] Gelernter, "it's hard to come up with many" findings linking specific genes to complex human behaviors that have been replicated. "...All were announced with great fanfare; all were greeted unskeptically in the popular press; all are now in disrepute."<ref>''Science'', 264:1687 (1994)</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Gender and homosexuality ===<br /> <br /> The [[Gallup poll|Gallup Organization]] reported: "The Family Research Report says 'around 2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual.'"<ref>[http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?] by Jennifer Robison, [[Gallup poll|Gallup Organization]]</ref> The U.S Department of Health and Human Services reported: "While the percentage of women and men aged 18-44 years who reported they were either heterosexual or homosexual was similar (94% of women and 96% of men said they were heterosexual while 1.1% of women and 1.7% of men said they were homosexual or gay), the percentage of women who reported they were bisexual was more than 3 times as high as men (3.5% of women vs. 1.1% of men)."<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20130605104033/http://www.hhs.gov/opa/pdfs/r-and-e-update-spring-2011.pdf OPA RESEARCH & EVALUATION UPDATE, January – March 2011], U.S Department of Health and Human Services]</ref><ref>[https://carm.org/percent-population-homosexual Statistics on the percentage of the population that are homosexual and lesbian] by Matt Slick, [[CARM]]</ref><br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and Choice ===<br /> In regards to the issue of [[Homosexuality and Choice|homosexuality and choice]], given the existence of [[ex-homosexuals]] and given the [[ Religious Upbringing and Culture Affects Rates of Homosexuality|existence of human cultures where homosexuality has apparently not existed]], the position that homosexuality is ultimately a choice in individuals or at the very least can be a choice in individuals has strong evidential support. In short, there is a strong argument that one can [[Overcoming Homosexuality|leave homosexuality]]. <br /> <br /> Also, in 2012 ABC News reported concerning actress Cynthia Nixon: "Cynthia Nixon stands by her statement that she is gay by choice, despite the backlash she’s received from members of the gay community."<ref>[http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2012/01/cynthia-nixon-gay-by-choice/ Cynthia Nixon: Gay by Choice?]</ref> In addition, given that the [[Homosexuality and health|homosexual population has significantly higher rates of many diseases and the homosexual population also has significantly lower rates of various measures of mental health]], it can be strongly argued that engaging in homosexual acts is a bad choice for individuals. <br /> <br /> Another other factor that makes engaging in homosexual acts a bad choice for individuals is the significantly higher rates of [[Homosexual Couples and Domestic Violence|domestic violence in homosexual couples]]. In addition, according to experts [[Homosexuality and Murders|homosexual murders are relatively or quite common and often homosexual murders are very brutal]]. Also, the [[Homosexuality and Illegal Drug Use|homosexual population has a greater propensity to engage in illegal drug use]].<br /> <br /> A 2003 poll done by Ellison Research of [[Phoenix]], [[Arizona]] stated that 82% of all [[United States|American]] [[Protestantism|Protestant]] ministers agreed with the statement “homosexuality is a choice people make".<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20181025095012/http://www.greymatterresearch.com/index_files/Homosexuality.htm Opinions about homosexuality - Grey Matter Consulting]</ref><br /> <br /> ===Immutability===<br /> Immutability is the inability of a thing to be changed. For example, it is impossible to change a dog into a cat. Likewise, it is impossible to change one's [[race]], although with makeup or plastic surgery has made it possible to alter one's racial appearance. The immutability of membership in a group is an important consideration in determining the level of scrutiny given to a law against that group under the [[Equal Protection Clause]].<br /> <br /> There has been much debate over whether homosexuality is immutable despite the existence of [[ex-homosexuals]]. Often the argument is made that it's either genetically determined (and thus immutable), or that it is entirely a matter of choice. Given this dichotomy, the premise that "I didn't choose to be gay" yields the conclusion that it must be genetically determined. However, the search for a "[[gay gene]]" has proved elusive. Many others, including most scientists, have a much less 'black and white' view. They propose that it is determined by a complex interaction of many factors, some of which could be genetic, but probably also include psychological, environmental and cognitive factors, and is shaped at a very early age.<br /> <br /> Simon LeVay wrote:<br /> "It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain. ... Since I look at adult brains, we don't know if the differences I found were there at birth or if they appeared later."<ref name="byrd">[https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/part-one-sexual-orientation-sexuality-and-gender Sexuality and Gender Findings from the Biological, Psychological, and Social Sciences, ''The New Atlantis'' (journal of technology and society)]</ref><br /> <br /> ==== Neuroscience ====<br /> <br /> :Before 1960, the brain was considered by scientists to be immutable, subject only to genetic control.<ref> [https://web.archive.org/web/20170504030153/http://education.jhu.edu/PD/newhorizons/Neurosciences/articles/Response%20of%20the%20Brain%20to%20Enrichment/ Response of the Brain to Enrichment] - Marian Cleeves Diamond, Johns Hopkins School of Education</ref><br /> <br /> :For decades, the prevailing dogma in neuroscience was that the adult human brain is essentially immutable, hardwired, fixed in form and function, so that by the time we reach adulthood we are pretty much stuck with what we have.<ref> [http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580438,00.html ''The Brain: How The Brain Rewires Itself''], ''Time magazine'']</ref><br /> <br /> ===== Frontal lobe injury and homosexuality =====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Homosexuality and frontal lobe injury]] and [[Religiosity and larger frontal lobes]] and [[Atheism and the brain|Atheism and brain function]]<br /> [[File:Cerebrum lobes.svg.png|thumbnail|200px|right|Graphic of cerebral lobes. Light brown section of the graphic depicts the area of the frontal lobe. (Click on graphic to enlarge)]]<br /> The [[frontal lobe]] plays a role in controlling sexual behavior.<ref>[http://www.neuroskills.com/brain-injury/frontal-lobes.php Frontal lobes], The Centre for Neuro Skills</ref><ref>[http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/frontal-lobe/male Frontal lobe], Healthline.com</ref><br /> <br /> According to the 2007 medical journal article (and its abstract) entitled ''Neurological control of human sexual behaviour: insights from lesion studies'' which was published in the ''Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry'':<br /> {{cquote|We review the human literature examining the effects of neurological insult on human sexual behaviour. We provide a synthesis of the findings to date, and identify key brain regions associated with specific aspects of human sexual behaviour. These include subcortical and cortical regions, with the mesial temporal lobe and the amygdala in particular being a crucial structure in the mediation of human sexual drive...<br /> <br /> Disinhibited sexual behaviour has been reported following damage to the frontal lobes, particularly the orbitofrontal region of the limbic system.<br /> <br /> Kolarsky and colleagues54 examined the relationships between “sexual deviation”, age of lesion onset and localisation of lesion (temporal vs extratemporal). The authors defined two diagnostic categories: (1) “sexual deviation”, involving a deviation of sexual object (for example, paedophilia). Homosexuality was included in this category, which would now be considered inappropriate, and (2) “sexual disturbances other than deviations”, including orgasm in response to stimuli unrelated to the subject's sexual preference, hypersexuality and hyposexuality...<br /> <br /> An association between temporal lobe abnormalities and paedophilia has been reported by Mendez and colleagues.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2117556/ Neurological control of human sexual behaviour: insights from lesion studies],J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 2007 Oct; 78(10): 1042–1049.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Ex-Homosexuals ==<br /> [[Image:St Paul Preaching.jpg|left|thumb|200px|St. [[Paul]] defends his preaching (Giovanni Ricco)]]<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Ex-Homosexuals]] and [[Overcoming Homosexuality]] and [[Resources on becoming a Christian]]<br /> <br /> In regards to the question of whether or not homosexuality is a permanent condition, one of the earliest historical records regarding of the existence of [[Ex-Homosexuals|ex-homosexuals]] is a letter of the [[Paul|Apostle Paul]] to the [[Corinth|Corinthian]] [[Christianity|Christian]] church.<br /> <br /> The Apostle Paul taught that [[Homosexuality and the Bible|homosexuality is a sin]] when he wrote the following:<br /> {{cquote|Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the [[Kingdom of God|kingdom of God]]. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord [[Jesus Christ]] and by the [[Holy Spirit|Spirit]] of our [[God]]." - I Corinthians 6:9-11 (NIV)}}<br /> <br /> Today people still report leaving homosexuality and becoming heterosexual through their [[Christianity|Christian]] faith.<ref><br /> *[http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56481 'Gay'-rights leader quits homosexuality - Rising star in movement says God liberated him from lifestyle]<br /> *[http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19650 Documentary features stories of those who left homosexuality], ''Baptist News''<br /> *[http://americansfortruth.com/news/ex-lesbian-yvette-schneider-testifies-to-complete-and-permanent-change.html Ex-Lesbian Yvette Schneider Testifies to ‘Complete’ and Permanent Change]<br /> *[http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/founder.html About DL Foster]<br /> *[http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-group-releases-ex-gay-documentary-such-were-some-of-you-123754/ Christian Group Releases Ex-Gay Documentary, 'Such Were Some of You']<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUXhKbHMGJg Trailer of the ex-homosexual documentary 'Such Were Some of You']<br /> *[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/09/16/landmark-study-change-for-homosexuals-is-possible/ Landmark Study: Change for Homosexuals Is Possible]<br /> </ref><br /> [[Image:6a00cdf3a9bf0ecb8f00cd973c56934cd5-500pi.jpg|thumbnail|200px|right|Ex-Homosexual and ex-"gay rights" leader Michael Glatze speaking to the mother of [[Matthew Shepard]].]]<br /> <br /> [[Peter LaBarbera]] is the President of [[Americans for Truth]] which is a organization which counters the [[Homosexual Agenda|homosexual agenda]]. Peter LaBarbera stated the following regarding Christian ex-homosexuals who reported being transformed by the power of God:<br /> {{cquote|Another factor from my experience as a close observer of the “ex-gay” phenomenon is that many former homosexuals do not linger in “[[Reparative Therapy|reparative therapy]]” programs, or participate in them at all. They attribute their dramatic and (relatively) rapid transformation to the power of God, and likely would not show up in a study of this kind. In fact, these “unstudied” overcomers would appear to be the most successful ex-homosexuals because they’ve moved on with their lives — as “reborn” Christians move on after overcoming any besetting sin.<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/09/16/landmark-study-change-for-homosexuals-is-possible/ Landmark study - Change for homosexuals is still possible]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In respect to Peter LaBarbera's statement above regarding homosexuals overcoming homosexuality through the power of God, in 1980 a study was published in the ''American Journal of Psychiatry'' and eleven men participated in this study. The aforementioned study in the ''American Journal of Psychiatry'' stated that eleven homosexual men became heterosexuals "without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy" through their participation in a [[Pentecostalism|Pentecostal]] church.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7435713 E.M. Pattison and M.L. Pattison, "'Ex-Gays': Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 137, pp. 1553-1562, 1980]</ref> The [[Apostle Paul]] in a letter to the church of [[Corinth]] indicated that [[Christianity|Christians]] were able to overcome being homosexuals through the power of [[Jesus Christ]] (I Corinthians 6:9-11). <br /> <br /> === Ex-homosexuals in the sexology literature ===<br /> <br /> Dr. Whitehead and Briar Whitehead state in their aforementioned book the following regarding ex-homosexuals [[Overcoming Homosexuality|overcoming homosexuality]]:<br /> {{cquote|The sexology literature reports a huge number of examples of change of all degrees from homosexuality to or toward heterosexuality. These studies have been so numerous that West (a gay man) in 1977 took an entire chapter in his classic book, Homosexuality Re-examined, to review them, and commented: “Although some militant homosexuals find such claims improbable and unpalatable, authenticated accounts have been published of apparently exclusive and long-standing homosexuals unexpectedly changing their orientation.”<br /> <br /> West mentions one man who was exclusively homosexual for eight years, then became heterosexual...<br /> <br /> Another well known author in the field, Hatterer, who believes in sexual orientation change, said, “I’ve heard of hundreds of ... men who went from a homosexual to a heterosexual adjustment on their own.”<ref>[http://www.mygenes.co.nz/PDFs/Ch12.pdf From the book My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead -Chapter 12]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Hate Crime Law Misapplied to Ex-homosexual ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Hate Crime Law Misapplied to Ex-homosexual]]<br /> <br /> === Denials that ex-homosexuals exist ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Denials that ex-homosexuals exist]]<br /> <br /> Commonly homosexual activists fallaciously argue that ex-homosexuals “must never have been really gay at all” (see: [[No true Scotsman]] fallacy) or is “just deluding himself.” <ref>[http://lastresistance.com/4063/ex-gay-controversy-highlights-extreme-breach-gay-debate/ Ex-Gay Controversy Highlights Extreme Breach in “Gay” Debate]</ref> For example, when the alleged homosexual, male penguin "Harry" mated with a female penguin (see: [[Homosexuality in animals myth]]), the homosexual activist [[Wayne Besen]] angrily exclaimed "“There is no ‘ex-gay’ sexual orientation. Harry is simply in denial. He’s living what I call the ‘big lie.’”<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2009/07/15/gay-penguin-flies-straight/ Gay penguin flies straight]</ref> In [[Madison]], [[Wisconsin]] an ex-homosexual was forced to do 50 hours of community service and undergo "tolerance training" (or face jail time and fines) due to a discussion he had with a homosexual (see: [[Hate Crime Law Misapplied to Ex-homosexual]]). <br /> <br /> The denial that [[Homosexuality and choice|homosexuality is a choice]] by homosexual activists and [[liberal]]s is similar to the behavior of [[fat acceptance movement]] activists who insist that being overweight is never a choice and ostracize ex-overweight people (see: [[fat acceptance movement]] for details).<br /> <br /> ==Anti-Homosexuality Blogs==<br /> Two of the more popular [[Anti-homosexuality blogs|anti-homosexuality blogs]] are [[Americans For Truth]] and [[Gay Christian Movement Watch]]. The blog Americans For Truth is run by [[Peter LaBarbera]] and the blog Gay Christian Movement Watch is run by Pastor D.L. Foster.<br /> <br /> == Homosexual Men Seeking to Become Ex-homosexuals Often Do So to Heal Emotional Pain or For Spiritual Reasons==<br /> A [https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/survey-finds-men-seek-to-leave-homosexual-lifestyle-to-heal-emotional-pain 2006 survey] finds [[Homosexual Men|homosexual men]] seek to leave homosexual lifestyle to heal emotional pain and for spiritual reasons rather than outside pressure. In addition, there is [[Homosexuality and Mental Health|other data that supports the above 2006 survey findings]].<br /> [[Image:FacProfilemontoya.jpg‎|right|150px|thumb|Dr. [[Alex D. Montoya]] wrote:"The [[Christianity|Christian]] needs to befriend and witness to the homosexual with such [[love]], [[compassion]], and [[wisdom]] that such will respond to the saving [[grace]] of [[God]]."<ref>[http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj11h.pdf The Master's Seminary Journal (TMSJ), 11/2 (Fall 2000), page 169, HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE CHURCH, Alex D. Montoya (Associate Professor of Pastoral Ministries)]</ref>]]<br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality and the Bible==<br /> <br /> ''For additional information please see'': [[Homosexuality and biblical interpretation]] and [[Homosexuality and the Bible]] and [[Atheism and homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> In respect to [[Homosexuality and the Bible|homosexuality and the Bible]], sound [[Bible Exegesis|Bible exegesis]] and Bible exposition demonstrates that the Bible condemns homosexuality.<ref>[http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/romans_malick.pdf David E. Malick, "The Condemnation of Homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27," Bibliotheca Sacra 150: 599(1993): 327-340]</ref><ref>[http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/homosexuality_corinthians6.pdf David E. Malick, “The Condemnation of Homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6:9,” Bibliotheca Sacra 150: 600 (1993): 479-492]</ref><ref>[http://www.phc.edu/gj_haas_hermen.php HERMENEUTICAL ISSUES IN THE USE OF THE BIBLE TO JUSTIFY THE ACCEPTANCE OF HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICE, Guenther Haas, Redeemer College]</ref><ref>[http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj11h.pdf The Master's Seminary Journal (TMSJ), 11/2 (Fall 2000) 155-168 HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE CHURCH, Alex D. Montoya (Associate Professor of Pastoral Ministries)]</ref> In addition, [[Christianity|Christian]] apologist [[JP Holding]] refutes various arguments that assert that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality.<ref>http://www.tektonics.org/qt/romhom.html</ref><ref>http://tektonics.org/gk/genhom.html</ref><ref>http://www.tektonics.org/lp/lev18.html</ref><ref>http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gayjude.html</ref><ref>http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gaydavid.html</ref> In his essay which examines the biblical passages regarding homosexuality, Pastor and Associate Professor of Pastoral Ministries at [[The Master's Seminary]] Dr. [[Alex D. Montoya]] states that "The [[Christianity|Christian]] needs to befriend and witness to the<br /> homosexual with such [[love]], [[compassion]], and [[wisdom]] that such will respond to the saving [[grace]] of [[God]]."<ref>[http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj11h.pdf The Master's Seminary Journal (TMSJ), 11/2 (Fall 2000), page 169, HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE CHURCH, Alex D. Montoya (Associate Professor of Pastoral Ministries)]</ref><br /> <br /> == City of Sodom, Homosexuality, and Archaeology ==<br /> The [[Bible]] clearly associates the city of [[Sodom]] with homosexuality ([http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019:4-9;&version=49; Genesis 19:4-9]), although [[Sodom|the Bible associates with Sodom other sins as well]]. Claims that the primary reason for Sodom's judgment was inhospitality are not supported by sound [[Bible exegesis]].<ref>http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5702</ref><ref>http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/480</ref> <br /> <br /> The Bible states regarding Sodom:<br /> <br /> ...the LORD rained on Sodom and [[Gomorrah]] brimstone and fire from the LORD out of [[heaven]], and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019:24-25;&version=49; Genesis 19:24-25]<br /> === Sodom and Archaeological Evidence === <br /> [[Image:Martin destruction sodom640x422.jpg|thumb|200px|right|Destruction of [[Sodom]] by [[God]]]]<br /> The following was reported in respect to Dr. [[Bryant Wood]]'s archaeological work in relating to the biblical city of Sodom:<br /> {{cquote|Most intriguing was evidence that a massive fire had destroyed the city. It lay buried under a coating of ash several feet thick. A cemetery one [[kilometer]] outside the city contained charred remains of roofs, posts, and bricks turned red from heat.<br /> <br /> Dr. [[Bryant Wood]], in describing these charnel houses, stated that a fire began on the roofs of these buildings. Eventually the burning roof collapsed into the interior and spread inside the building. This was the case in every house they excavated. Such a massive fiery destruction would match the biblical account that the city was destroyed by fire that rained down from heaven. Wood states, "The evidence would suggest that this site of Bab edh-Drha is the biblical city of Sodom."<ref>[https://www.probe.org/archaeology-and-the-old-testament/ Archaeology and the Old Testament by Patrick Zukeran]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Dr. Wood provides some additional material in relation to the find being the biblical city of Sodom.<ref>[http://www.johnankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/science/SC3W0903.pdf The Discovery of the Sin Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Part 1 of 2]</ref><ref>[http://www.johnankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/science/SC3W1003.pdf The Discovery of the Sin Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah—Part 2]</ref><br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality and Promiscuity ==<br /> <br /> ''For related information see'': [[Homosexuality and promiscuity]] and [[Homosexuality Statistics]]<br /> <br /> A 2004 article by Michael Foust states: <br /> {{cquote|A new study by a group of [[University of Chicago]] researchers reveals a high level of promiscuity and unhealthy behavior among that city's homosexual male population.<br /> <br /> According to the researchers, 42.9 percent of homosexual men in [[Chicago]]'s Shoreland area have had more than 60 sexual partners, while an additional 18.4 percent have had between 31 and 60 partners. All total, 61.3 percent of the area's homosexual men have had more than 30 partners, and 87.8 percent have had more than 15, the research found.<br /> <br /> As a result, 55.1 percent of homosexual males in Shoreland -- known as Chicago's "gay center" -- have at least one [[Sexually Transmitted Disease|sexually transmitted disease]], researchers said.<br /> <br /> The three-year study on the sexual habits of Chicago's citizens will appear in the upcoming book, "The Sexual Organization of The City" (University of Chicago Press), due out this spring.<ref>[http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17458 Baptist Press, MARRIAGE DIGEST: New study: Homosexual men prone to promiscuity by Michael Foust (Posted on Jan 16, 2004)]</ref><ref>[http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/470318chap2.html An excerpt from The Sexual Organization of the City - Chapter 2 - The Chicago Health and Social Life Survey Design - concerning Chicago's "Shoreland" area]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Homosexual Couples and Domestic Violence ==<br /> <br /> [[Image:Cycle.gif|thumbnail|170px|left|A recent study by the [[Canada|Canadian]] government states that "violence was twice as common among homosexual couples compared with [[heterosexual]] couples".]]<br /> For more information please see: [[Homosexual Couples and Domestic Violence]] and [[Gay bashing]]<br /> <br /> Studies report that homosexual couples have significantly higher incidences of violent behavior. For example, a recent study by the [[Canada|Canadian]] government states that "violence was twice as common among homosexual couples compared with [[heterosexual]] couples".<ref>2004 General Social Survey], Statistics Canada, Canada's National Statistical Agency, July 7, 2005</ref> According the [[American College of Pediatricians]] who cite several studies, "Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples."<ref>http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50</ref> In addition, the [[American College of Pediatricians]] states the following: "Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years."<ref>http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50</ref><br /> <br /> <br /> In June of 2004, the journal ''Nursing Clinics of North America'' reported the following regarding homosexuality and domestic violence:<br /> {{cquote|Domestic abuse is under-reported in the gay community...<br /> <br /> Male-on-male same-sex domestic violence also has been reported in couples where one or both persons are [[HIV]]-positive. Intimate partner abuse and violence include humilation, threatening to disclose HIV status, withholding HIV therapy, and harming family members or pets.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15159188 ''Nursing Clinics of North America'' 2004 Jun;39(2):403]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality and Murders==<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality and Murders]]<br /> <br /> ===Commonness of Homosexual Murder===<br /> Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S. who is a former commander of Bronx homicide for the New York City Police Department stated in 1995 concerning [[Homosexuality and Murders|homosexuality and murders]] that homosexual murders are relatively common and these murders may involve male victims murdered by other males or may involve female victims who are in some type of [[lesbianism|lesbian]] relationship and they are murdered by another female.<ref>[http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/homoserial.htm Homosexual Serial Murder Investigation By Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S. Former Commander, Bronx Homicide, NYPD]</ref> In 2005, Dr. Harnam Singh, Dr. Luv Sharma, and Dr. Dhattarwal reported in the ''Journal of [[India|Indian]] Academy of Forensic Medicine'' in respect to homosexuality and murders that homosexual murders are quite common and that these murders may involve both sexes either as victims or as assailants.<ref>[http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i3/jalt05i3p184.pdf SEX RELATED HOMICIDES AND OFFENDERS -A MEDICO-LEGALISTS VIEW, Dr. Harnam Singh, Dr. Luv Sharma, Dr. S.K.Dhattarwal, ''Journal of Indian Academy of Forensic Medicine'', 2005 ; 27 (3). ISSN 0971 -0973]</ref><br /> <br /> ===Homosexual Murders and Brutality===<br /> ==== Homosexual Murders and Overkill====<br /> [[File:11943452 115b299206.jpg|thumbnail|205px|right|The eminent pathologist Dr. [[William Eckert]] wrote concerning homosexual homicides: "Equally high is the number of homicides, many probably related to transient attachments, which often lead to suspicion, jealousy, and murder. When murder does occur it is exceptionally brutal with an overkill appearance... Overkill, as it is seen in homosexual and [[Lesbianism|lesbian]] murders, is certainly a form of [[sadism|sadistic]] crime."]]<br /> There have been a number of forensic journal articles on the issue of homosexual homicides and overkill.<ref>Tedeschi CG, Eckert W, Tedeschi LG, eds. Forensic medicine; vol 2. Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 1977:962</ref><ref>[http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i3/jalt05i3p184.pdf SEX RELATED HOMICIDES AND OFFENDERS - A MEDICO-LEGALISTS VIEW, Dr. Harnam Singh, Dr. Luv Sharma, Dr. S.K.Dhattarwal, ''Journal of Indian Academy of Forensic Medicine'', 2005 ; 27 (3). ISSN 0971 -0973]</ref><ref>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8838474?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</ref><ref>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9430297?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</ref><ref>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8947366?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</ref><br /> In 1996, the forensic journal [[The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology]] published an article entitled ''Homicide in homosexual victims: a study of 67 cases from the Broward County, Florida, Medical Examiner's office (1982-1992), with special emphasis on "overkill"''. The abstract for the journal article states: <br /> {{Cquote|Forensic pathologists often state that homosexual homicides are more violent than those with heterosexual victims. Overkill or wounding far beyond that required to cause death is a frequently used descriptor of these deaths. We quantified the number and extent of injuries between homosexual and heterosexual homicide victims to determine whether one group suffered more violence than the other...Homosexual homicides are more violent than heterosexual homicides when one compares the mean number of injuries (fatal sharp, blunt, and total)/case and the extent of injuries on the body.<ref>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8838474?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Dr. William Eckert on Homosexual Homicides and Overkill ====<br /> According to the [[New York Times]], Dr. [[William Eckert]] was a world-renowned authority in the field of pathology and he worked on major murder cases including the assassination of Senator [[Robert F. Kennedy]] and the [[Charles Manson]] murders.<ref>[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E2DE123FF937A1575AC0A96F958260 ''New York Times'', William Eckert, 73, Medical Sleuth in Major Cases By WILLIAM H. HONAN, September 24, 1999]</ref> Dr. Eckert founded the ''American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology''.<ref>[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E2DE123FF937A1575AC0A96F958260 ''New York Times'', William Eckert, 73, Medical Sleuth in Major Cases By WILLIAM H. HONAN, September 24, 1999]</ref> <ref>[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,992160,00.html Time Magazine, Milestones by By VAL CASTRONOVO, MATTHEW COOPER, AUTUMN DE LEON, DANIEL S. LEVY, LINA LOFARO, CHRIS TAYLOR AND DAVID E. THIGPEN, October 9, 1999]</ref> According to ''[[Time]]'' magazine, Dr. Eckert was a pioneer who encouraged collaborative effort between law-enforcement and [[Forensic Science|forensics]] teams.<ref>[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,992160,00.html Time Magazine, Milestones by By VAL CASTRONOVO, MATTHEW COOPER, AUTUMN DE LEON, DANIEL S. LEVY, LINA LOFARO, CHRIS TAYLOR AND DAVID E. THIGPEN, October 9, 1999]</ref> <br /> [[Image:0-picture.jpg‎|thumbnail|180px|right|The eminent [[Pathology|pathologists]] [[Bernard Knight]] and [[Pekka Saukko]] stated that it is a fact that some of the most violent homicides seen by pathologists are among male homosexuals.<ref>Knight's Forensic Pathology',(3rd Ed) Saukko P. and B. Knight (2004) Arnold Publishers, London, page 428</ref>]]<br /> <br /> Dr. Eckert wrote concerning homosexual murders:<br /> {{cquote|Equally high is the number of homicides, many probably related to transient attachments, which often lead to suspicion, jealousy, and murder. When murder does occur it is exceptionally brutal with an overkill appearance... Overkill, as it is seen in homosexual and [[Lesbianism|lesbian]] murders, is certainly a form of sadistic crime. In these instances multiple stabbing and other brutal injuries...are common findings...<ref>Tedeschi CG, Eckert W, Tedeschi LG, eds. Forensic medicine; vol 2. Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 1977:962</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== Additional Source on Homosexual Murders and Overkill ====<br /> <br /> ''The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers'' by Michael Newton reports:<br /> {{cquote|Homosexual slayers clearly have no monopoly on violence, but it is true that their crimes often display extremes of "overkill" and mutilation... On balance, it seems fair to say that while homosexuals sometimes fall prey to "gay bashing" violence by bigoted "straights," they are far more likely to be murdered by another homosexual than in a random [[Hate crime|hate crime]].<ref>The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers by Michael Newton, page 103</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The previously cited pathology textbook by Knight and Saukko stated the following: "In addition, quite a number of fatal altercations arise because a heterosexual man becomes violent when importuned by a homosexual."<ref>Knight's Forensic Pathology',(3rd Ed) Saukko P. and B. Knight (2004) Arnold Publishers, London, page 428-429</ref><br /> <br /> ==Lesbianism==<br /> [[Image:Schnieders.jpg‎|thumb|150px|Yvette Cantu Schneider and family]]<br /> Women who engage in homosexuality are called ''[[Lesbianism|lesbians]]'' (after the ancient Greek island of [[Lesbos]]). Recently, the former lesbian activist Charlene Cothran left homosexuality and converted her pro-homosexuality magazine to one that helps homosexuals find freedom and deliverance through faith in [[Jesus Christ]].<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/10/11/ex-lesbian-charlene-cothran-tells-aftah-banquet-that-born-gay-claim-is-vicious-lie/ Ex-Lesbian Charlene Cothran Tells AFTAH Banquet that ‘Born Gay’ Claim Is ‘Vicious Lie’]</ref><ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQGA-n4JyOY Charlene Cothran - Gay Activist Finds Christ - video]</ref> Lesbian activist Yvette Cantu Schneider also became a Christian and left homosexuality.<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/06/22/ex-lesbian-yvette-schneider-testifies-to-complete-and-permanent-change/ Ex-Lesbian Yvette Schneider Testifies to ‘Complete’ and Permanent Change]</ref><br /> <ref>[http://familypolicy.net/hope/?p=607 Yvette Cantu Schneider]</ref><br /> <br /> In 2007, [[WorldNetDaily]] published the following regarding a lesbian woman:<br /> {{Cquote|A 53-year-old university professor and campaigner for legalized same-sex marriage in the UK said she was once a married "happy heterosexual" who had no doubts about her sexual orientation, but political activity and involvement in [[feminism|feminist]] causes "changed" her into a lesbian.<ref>[http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56458 Hetero woman: Feminism turned me into lesbian: 'I'd had a very happy marriage and a very good relationship with men']</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==Health Effects of Homosexual Lifestyle==<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality and health]] and [[Gay bathhouses]]<br /> ===AIDS===<br /> [[Image:Biol 01 img0018.jpg|thumb|200px|left|[[Human Immunodeficiency Virus]] attacking T4 [[lymphocyte]]s]]<br /> <br /> ''See also'': [[Homosexuality and AIDS]]<br /> <br /> A review of the history of [[Homosexuality and AIDS|homosexuality and AIDS]], indicates the original spread of [[AIDS]] is generally attributed to the aforementioned promiscuity of homosexual men. Originally the syndrome was called the "gay disease" because the overwhelming majority of patients were homosexual men.<br /> <br /> In 2019, the [[Center for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) website declared:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay and bisexual mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2016, gay and bisexual men accounted for 67% of the 40,324 new HIV diagnoses in the United States and 6 dependent areas. Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV...<ref>HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men, Center for Disease Control and Prevention website, Accessed February 2, 2019, CDC website is at https://www.cdc.gov</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In September of 2010, [[Reuters]] reported: "Nearly one in five gay and bisexual men in 21 major U.S. cities are infected with HIV, and nearly half of them do not know it".<ref>http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/23/us-aids-usa-idUSTRE68M3H220100923</ref> A September 2010 report of the [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) reported : "Gay, [[bisexual]], and other men who have sex with men (MSM) represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by [[HIV]] and are the only risk group in which new HIV infections have been increasing steadily since the early 1990s. In 2006, MSM accounted for more than half (53%) of all new HIV infections in the United States..."<ref>A September 2010 report of the [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]]</ref> <br /> <br /> In August of 2009, LifeSiteNews reported: "An official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced the CDC's estimate Monday that in the United States AIDS is fifty times more prevalent among men who have sex with men ('MSM') than the rest of the population."<ref>http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/aug/09082609</ref> This is a dramatic recent increase. In June of 2004, the journal ''Nursing Clinics of North America'' reported that homosexual men and men who have sex with men "are nine times more likely to become infected with [[HIV]] than their heterosexual counterparts".<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15159188 Nursing Clinics of North America North Am. 2004 Jun;39(2):403]</ref> Of newly diagnosed [[HIV]] infections in the [[United States]] during the year 2003, the [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) estimated that about 63% were among men who were infected through sexual contact with other men.<ref>http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5424a2.htm</ref><br /> As of 1998, fifty-four percent of all AIDS cases in the United States were homosexual men, and the CDC stated that nearly ninety percent of these men acquired HIV through sexual activity with other men.<ref>http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0088.html</ref><br /> <br /> In 2004, Jeffrey D. Klausner, Robert Kohn, and Charlotte Kent reported in the journal ''Clinical Infectious Diseases'' the following: "[[Proctitis]], or inflammation of the rectum, is a condition that is not uncommon among men who have sex with men (MSM), and, in HIV-negative men, greatly increases the risk of acquiring [[HIV]] infection. With the recent increases in bacterial sexually transmitted diseases ([[STD]]s) among MSM in the [[United States]] and [[Europe]], there has been a concomitant increase in the number of cases of clinical proctitis."<ref>[http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/2/300.abstract Jeffrey D. Klausner, Robert Kohn, and Charlotte Kent, Etiology of Clinical Proctitis among Men Who Have Sex with Men, Clinical Infectious Diseases 2004;38:300-302]</ref> On March 15, 2004 [[Medscape]] published an article by the noted HIV/AIDS specialist [[John G. Bartlett]], M.D. entitled ''New Look at "[[Gay bowel syndrome|Gay Bowel Syndrome]]"'' in which they commented on the aforementioned 2004 journal article ''Etiology of clinical proctitis among men who have sex with men'' published by JD Klausner and C. Kent in the journal ''Clinical Infectious Diseases''. <br /> <br /> The article in Medscape on gay bowel syndrome indicated:<br /> {{cquote|There were multiple studies of the newly recognized "[[Gay bowel syndrome|gay bowel syndrome]]" in the late 1970s and early 1980s. However, subsequent attention and study has been sparse, in part attributed to reduced frequency thought to reflect changing practices by gay men in response to the [[HIV]] epidemic. This study clearly indicates that it is still an issue, since the cases were studied in 2001-2002. Also, the etiology is about the same as previously, although [[HSV]] is newly recognized as an important component. This finding not only affects management but also has HIV prevention implications. The authors note that two thirds of the participants were HIV negative and that proctitis increases the risk of HIV by up to 9-fold.<ref>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/470936_4</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The [[Johns Hopkins Hospital|Johns Hopkins]] HIV Guide website featured a duplicate of the aforementioned article by [[John G. Bartlett]], M.D. at Medscape which was entitled ''New Look at "Gay Bowel Syndrome"''.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20081120130223/http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/literature_review/02-2004/new_look_at_gay_bowel_syndrome.html Johns Hopkins HIV Guide, review of the literature - essentially duplicate of Medscape's New Look at Gay Bowel Syndrome], 2004, Wayback machine</ref><ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/10/15/conservapedia-examines-gay-bowel-syndrome-homosexual-activists-lobby-against-term/ Johns Hopkins HIV Guide which was a duplicate of Medscape's New Look at Gay Bowel Syndrome] cited by journalist [[Peter LaBarbera]] at [[Americans for Truth]]</ref><ref>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/470936_4</ref><br /> <br /> In 2014, the medical journal ''Current Opinion in Infectious Disease'' published a journal article entitled '''Gay bowel syndrome': relic or real (and returning) phenomenon?'' whose abstract indicated:<br /> {{Cquote|Purpose of Review: This article aims to review the term 'gay bowel syndrome', including the recent research looking at increased rates of bowel infections in men who have sex with men (MSM), particularly in light of the recent Shigella outbreaks in MSM in London and New York, and considers whether 'gay bowel syndrome' is a syndrome that really exists and is worthy of further research and specific treatment, or whether the term continues to be obsolete and not useful.<br /> <br /> Recent findings: ...there seems to be a clustering of diseases in certain high-risk groups, especially those in urban areas with multiple sexual partners, recreational drug use, and possible concomitant HIV infection.<br /> <br /> Summary: All healthcare practitioners (including non-sexual health/HIV specialists) need to consider careful and thorough history taking (including sexual history) to identify those at risk.<ref>[https://journals.lww.com/co-infectiousdiseases/Abstract/2014/02000/_Gay_bowel_syndrome____relic_or_real__and.13.aspx 'Gay bowel syndrome': relic or real (and returning) phenomenon?] by Cooper F1, Barber T., ''Current Opinion in Infectious Disease'', 2014 Feb;27(1):84-9. doi: 10.1097/QCO.0000000000000032.</ref><ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24335755 'Gay bowel syndrome': relic or real (and returning) phenomenon?] by Cooper F1, Barber T., ''Current Opinion in Infectious Disease'', 2014 Feb;27(1):84-9. doi: 10.1097/QCO.0000000000000032., PubMed</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2004, the prominent medical website, WebMD, stated the following: "Men who have sex with men and women are a "significant bridge for HIV to women," the CDC's new data suggest."<ref>http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/20061101/hiv-bisexual-bridge-to-women</ref><br /> <br /> ==== Teenage AIDS and Teenage homosexuality ====<br /> <br /> See: [[Teenage homosexuality]] and [[Teenage AIDS]]<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and proctitis ===<br /> <br /> ''See also'': [[Homosexuality and proctitis]]<br /> <br /> According to the [[Mayo Clinic]], [[proctitis]] is an "inflammation of the lining of the rectum... Sexually transmitted diseases are the most common cause, but other causes include inflammatory bowel diseases, such as ulcerative colitis, and non-sexually transmitted infections."<ref>http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/proctitis/DS00705</ref> [[Sexually transmitted disease]]s that cause proctitis include [[gonorrhea]], [[syphilis]], cytomegalovirus, [[herpes]], [[chlamydia]], lymphogranuloma venereum, and [[amebiasis]].<ref>http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/001139.htm</ref><ref>http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec09/ch130/ch130f.html</ref> According to the Mayo Clinic, "proctitis in general mainly affects adult males".<ref>http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/proctitis/DS00705</ref><br /> <br /> In 2009, the abstract for the medical journal article ''Sexually transmitted infections as a cause of proctitis in men who have sex with men'' which was published in the medical journal ''Diseases of the Colon & Rectum'' declared: "Many men who have sex with men (MSM) present with complaints of bleeding, pain, and inflammation... Sexually transmitted infections are a common cause of proctitis and appropriate testing is imperative. Lymphogranuloma venereum is a common cause."<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19333054 ''Sexually transmitted infections as a cause of proctitis in men who have sex with men''], Davis TW1, Goldstone SE., Dis Colon Rectum. 2009 Mar;52(3):507-12. doi: 10.1007/DCR.0b013e31819ad537.</ref><br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and Syphilis ===<br /> [[Image:Ro0304F8Treponema.jpg|thumbnail|175px|right|A [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]] analysis suggested that approximately 64 percent of all adult primary and secondary syphilis cases in 2004 were among men who have sex with men.]]<br /> <br /> ''See also'': [[Homosexuality and Syphilis|Homosexuality and syphilis]]<br /> <br /> [[Syphilis]] is an infection caused by the [[bacteria]] Treponema pallidum. An early publication to propose the link between homosexuality contributing to the spread of sexually transmitted disease was the [[England|English]] publication '' Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine'' in 1962.<ref>[http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1896863 A.J. King, The Complications of Homosexuality, Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine, Volume 55 October 1962]</ref> The '' Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine'' made the following statement: "The importance of homosexual practices in the spread of [[Venereal Disease|venereal disease]]s has attracted particular attention recently. It almost seems that these practices are keeping [[syphilis]] alive in this country." <ref>[http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1896863 A.J. King, The Complications of Homosexuality, Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine, Volume 55 October 1962]</ref> <br /> <br /> The [[Center for Disease Control and Prevention]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Between 2016 and 2017, the number of reported primary and secondary (P&S) cases in the United States increased by 10.5%, and there were 30,644 P&S syphilis cases reported in 2017. Most (58%) of these cases were among MSM.<ref>Syphilis & MSM (Men Who Have Sex With Men) - CDC Fact Sheet, taken from the CDC website on February 2, 2019</ref>}}<br /> <br /> The news organization [[Cybercast News Service]] reported the following about [[Homosexuality and Syphilis|homosexuality and syphilis]]:<br /> {{cquote|The federal [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) says homosexual men accounted for 65 percent of the nearly 12,000 cases of syphilis in the United States in 2007, making them the “primary driver” of increased syphilis rates overall.<br /> <br /> In a report on sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) issued Tuesday, the government said syphilis, a disease that was almost eliminated as a public health threat less than 10 years ago, is on the rise -- with cases increasing each year since 2000.<ref>[http://cnsnews.com/news/article/homosexual-men-account-65-percent-syphilis-cases-cdc-study-finds Homosexual Men Account for 65 Percent of Syphilis Cases, CDC Study Finds]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and Gonorrhea===<br /> <br /> In relation to [[Homosexuality and Gonorrhea|homosexuality and gonorrhea]], in 2006, the American Association of Family Physicians reported: "Men who have sex with men (MSM) have high rates of gonococcal infection. In [[San Francisco]], more than one half of these infections occur in MSM, and previous cross-sectional studies have reported a prevalence of up to 15.3 percent in this group."<ref>http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0615/p1860.html</ref> <br /> [[Image:Neisseriagon.jpg|thumbnail|175px|right|[[Gonorrhea]] is a [[sexually transmitted disease]] (STD) caused by the bacterium ''[[Neisseria gonorrhoeae]]''.]] <br /> <br /> In 2017, the abstract for the medical journal article ''Frequent Transmission of Gonorrhea in Men Who Have Sex with Men'' published in the medical journal ''Emerging Infectious Diseases'' indicated: <br /> {{Cquote|The rate of gonorrhea is much higher in men who have sex with men than in heterosexuals. Because of unique behavioral characteristics, asymptomatic sites of infection, mainly the pharynx, are principal drivers of gonorrhea prevalence in men who have sex with men. On the basis of this observation, we call for interventions.<br /> <br /> The rates of sexually transmitted infections are rising rapidly in men who have sex with men (MSM). Gonorrhea is of particular concern because rising rates will increase the probability of antimicrobial drug resistance. In response, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended reducing the prevalence of gonorrhea as a key strategy to mitigate against antimicriobial resistance. However, reducing prevalence requires understanding why gonorrhea is so common in MSM. We suggest that specific sexual practices of MSM result in them having a high prevalence of asymptomatic infection in particular anatomic sites and that these infections are the primary drivers of transmission.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5176237/ Frequent Transmission of Gonorrhea in Men Who Have Sex with Men], Christopher K. Fairley,corresponding author Jane S. Hocking, Lei Zhang, and Eric P.F. Chow, Emerg Infect Dis. 2017 Jan; 23(1): 102–104. doi: 10.3201/eid2301.161205</ref>}} <br /> <br /> In 2007, the medical journal ''Sexually Transmitted Diseases'' published an article entitled ''Sexually Transmitted Infections in Western Europe Among HIV-Positive Men Who Have Sex With Men'' which stated the following regarding homosexuality and gonorrhea: <br /> {{cquote|"Since the late 1990s, increases in diagnoses and rates of gonorrhea have been observed across the region, although recently there has been evidence of a levelling off and even a decline in some countries.<br /> <br /> In [[Denmark]] (1994–1999), gonorrhea incidence was 6 times higher among known [[HIV]]-positive MSM [men who have sex with men]... A study in a [[Paris|Parisian]] clinic showed that at least one-third (30/92) of MSM diagnosed with gonorrhea between January 1999 and May 2001 were HIV-positive... In [[Sweden]], 5.4% (4/74) of gonorrhea cases were in HIV-positive MSM in 2000. By comparison, at sentinel sites in [[England]] and [[Wales]], 32% (123/381) of MSM with gonorrhea were HIV-positive in 2004.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17495592&ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum ''Sexually transmitted infections in Western Europe among HIV-positive men who have sex with men'',''Sexually Transmitted Diseases'' 2007 Oct;34(10):783-90.]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and Lymphogranuloma Venereum Outbreaks===<br /> <br /> See: [[Homosexuality and lymphogranuloma venereum]]<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and Parasites ===<br /> [[Image:Ehistolytica05.jpg|thumb|right|180px|Throughout the world, high rates of intestinal [[parasite|parasitism]] are found in men who have sex with men.]] Concerning the issue of [[Homosexuality and Parasites|homosexuality and parasites]], &#97;&#110;&#97;&#108; &#115;&#101;&#120; can be an important risk factor for [[Intestines|intestinal]] [[Parasite|parasitism]].<ref>[http://www.springerlink.com/content/jx13231641717w48/ Intestinal Parasitism among Homosexual Male], ''Sexuality and Disability'' by Viroj Wiwanitki, June 2006, Volume 24, Issue 2, pp 113–115</ref><br /> <br /> The abstract for the 2017 ''[[Eurosurveillance]]'' journal article ''Outbreak of intestinal amoebiasis among men who have sex with men, Barcelona (Spain), October 2016 and January 2017'' indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|[[Entamoeba histolytica]] has been recently recognised as an emerging sexually transmissible pathogen in men who have sex with men (MSM), causing sporadic outbreaks in countries where it is not endemic.<ref>[https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2017.22.30.30581 'Outbreak of intestinal amoebiasis among men who have sex with men, Barcelona (Spain), October 2016 and January 2017''], ''[[Eurosurveillance]]'', 2017</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2006, the ''[[The Medical Journal of Australia]]'' reported the following:<br /> {{cquote|High rates of intestinal parasitism are found in MSM [men who have sex with men] throughout the world. <br /> <br /> [[Amebiasis|Amoebiasis]] has become endemic in MSM in [[Japan]] and causes significant morbidity and mortality; complications such as colitis and liver abscesses occur more frequently in homosexual and bisexual men than in heterosexual men. Similar findings on amoebiasis are reported from [[Taiwan]], with MSM at increased risk for invasive amoebiasis and intestinal colonisation with [[Entamoeba Histolytica|E. histolytica]].<ref>[http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/185_08_161006/sta10803_fm.html ''Letter to the editor - Locally acquired infection with Entamoeba histolytica in men who have sex with men in [[Australia]]'', Damien J Stark, Rashmi Fotedar, John T Ellis and John L Harkness, MJA 2006; 185 (8): 417]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2001, The journal ''Internal Medicine (Tokyo, Japan)'' published an article entitled ''Amebiasis in acquired immunodeficiency syndrome'' in which they stated the following the following:<br /> {{cquote|While the overall prevalence of [[amebiasis]] is approximately 4% in the [[United States]], certain high-risk groups have a much higher incidence of infection and [[disease]]. Prevalence of [[Entamoeba Histolytica|E. historylitica]] or [[Entamoeba Dispar|E. dispar]] in the gay population of [[New York City]] and [[San Francisco]] approached 40-50% . Some Japanese literature also showed homosexual contact was an important risk factor for amebic infection.<ref>[http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnlpdf.php?cdjournal=internalmedicine1992&cdvol=40&noissue=7&startpage=563&lang=en&from=jnlabstract Amano K, Takeuchi T., ''Amebiasis in acquired immunodeficiency syndrome''. Intern Med. 2001 Jul;40(7):563-4]</ref><ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11506293&ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Amano K, Takeuchi T., ''Amebiasis in acquired immunodeficiency syndrome''. Intern Med. 2001 Jul;40(7):563-4]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ===Higher Rates of Syphilis, Gonorrhea, Lymphogranuloma Venereum, and Amebiases Elaborated=== <br /> [[Sexually transmitted disease]]s that cause [[proctitis]] include [[syphilis]], [[gonorrhea]], [[Lymphogranuloma Venereum|lymphogranuloma venereum]], and [[amebiasis]] and as noted earlier the homosexual community has significant problems in regards to these illnesses.<ref>http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/proctitis/basics/causes/con-20027855</ref> In addition, as mentioned earlier proctitis significant risk factor in respect to [[HIV]] infection.<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/10/15/conservapedia-examines-gay-bowel-syndrome-homosexual-activists-lobby-against-term/ Johns Hopkins HIV Guide which was a duplicate of Medscape's New Look at Gay Bowel Syndrome] cited by journalist [[Peter LaBarbera]] at [[Americans for Truth]]</ref><ref>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/470936_4</ref> According to the Mayo Clinic, "proctitis in general mainly affects adult males".<ref>http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/proctitis/DS00705</ref> <br /> [[Proctitis]], [[syphilis]], [[gonorrhea]], [[Lymphogranuloma Venereum|lymphogranuloma venereum]], and [[amebiasis]] are all maladies that are associated with [[Gay bowel syndrome|gay bowel syndrome]] which why John G. Bartlett, M.D. stated at the Johns Hopkins HIV Guide website and at [[Medscape]] that gay bowel syndrome is still currently an issue.<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/10/15/conservapedia-examines-gay-bowel-syndrome-homosexual-activists-lobby-against-term/ Johns Hopkins HIV Guide which was a duplicate of Medscape's New Look at Gay Bowel Syndrome] cited by journalist [[Peter LaBarbera]] at [[Americans for Truth]]</ref><ref>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/470936_4</ref><br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and Hepatitis===<br /> [[Image:Hepatitis-c(1).gif‎|thumbnail|205px|right|Hepatitis C Virus]]<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality and Hepatitis]]<br /> <br /> In relation to [[Homosexuality and Hepatitis|homosexuality and hepatitis]], according to the [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) both [[Hepatitis]] A and Hepatitis B disproportionately affects men who have sex with men (MSM).<ref>http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/msm/hav_msm_fact.htm</ref><ref>http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/msm/hbv_msm_fact.htm</ref> <br /> <br /> In 2019, the CDC reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Among adults, an estimated 10% of new [[Hepatitis]] A cases and 20% of new Hepatitis B cases occur in MSM.<br /> <br /> MSM are at increased risk for Hepatitis C if they are involved in high-risk behaviors.<br /> <br /> There is no vaccine for Hepatitis C and testing for Hepatitis C is not recommended for MSM unless they were born from 1945 through 1965, have HIV, or are engaging in risky behaviors. The best way to prevent Hepatitis C is by avoiding behaviors that can spread the disease, especially sharing needles or other equipment to inject drugs.<ref>Center for Disease Control and Prevention website, https://www.cdc.gov, accessed February 2, 2019</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In a 2007 article entitled ''Advances in the Management of Viral Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C Infection in HIV-Coinfected Patients'' Vincent V. Soriano, MD, PhD reported in [[Medscape]] the following regarding homosexuality and Hepatitis C viral infections:<br /> {{cquote|Hepatitis C virus (HCV) has not been thought to be efficiently transmitted through sexual contact. However, recent reports of outbreaks of acute hepatitis C among men who have sex with men (MSM) have changed this view. British researchers examined 7223 MSM who attended a single clinic in Brighton, United Kingdom, since 2000. The study investigators reported that highly risky sexual practices along with multiple sex partners explained the increase in episodes of acute HCV infection in this population.<ref>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554156</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Viral hepatitis is one of the illnesses of [[Gay bowel syndrome|gay bowel syndrome]].<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and Shigellosis ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Homosexuality and shigellosis]]<br /> <br /> [[Image:Gech 0001 0004 0 img0247.jpg|thumbnail|180px|right|[[Shigella]] [[bacteria]] cause [[shigellosis]]]]<br /> <br /> [[MSM (Medical term)|MSM]] is a medical abbreviation for men who have sex with men.<br /> <br /> The [[Center for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) indicates:<br /> {{Cquote|<br /> *Many shigellosis outbreaks among MSM have been reported in the United States, Canada, Tokyo, and Europe since 1999.<br /> <br /> *MSM are more likely than others to get infected with Shigella that is resistant to two antibiotics commonly used to treat adults who have shigellosis. Therefore, MSM who get shigellosis may need to see their healthcare providers repeatedly before receiving treatments that will work. Additionally, they may require injectable antibiotics rather than antibiotics that can be taken by mouth.<br /> <br /> *HIV-infected persons can have more severe and prolonged shigellosis, including having the infection spread into the blood, which can be life-threatening.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/shigella/msm.html Shigella Infections among Gay & Bisexual Men], excerpt from PDF downloaded on February 2, 2019</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ===Peter LaBarbera and His Calls to Shut Down Homosexual Bathhouses===<br /> <br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Gay bathhouses]]<br /> <br /> [[Peter LaBarbera]], president of [[Americans for Truth]], stated the following about [[Gay bathhouses|gay bathhouses]]:<br /> {{cquote|Why isn’t there a concerted government effort — akin to the current anti-smoking campaigns — to reign in homosexual promiscuity – beginning with closing down all sex businesses (bathhouses) that facilitate homosexual perversion? (Of course, we favor closing down straight prostitution businesses as well.) We know that bisexual behavior (men on the “down low”) help spread dangerous diseases to the general population: how many deaths and illnesses have to result from “second-hand sodomy” before authorities take corrective action?<ref>http://americansfortruth.com/news/big-city-homosexual-men-are-epicenter-of-new-virulent-mrsa-staff-strain.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and MRSA===<br /> [[Image:Mrsa_4.jpg‎|thumbnail|205px|right|In 2008, the ''Annals of Internal Medicine'' reported that infection with multidrug-resistant USA300 MRSA is common among men who have sex with men, and multidrug-resistant MRSA infection might be sexually transmitted in this population.]]<br /> In relation to [[Homosexuality and MRSA|homosexuality and MRSA]], on January 15, 2008 the newspaper [[San Francisco Chronicle]] had a news article entitled ''[[San Francisco]] gay community an epicenter for new strain of virulent staph.''<ref>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/15/MNI5UE0L8.DTL</ref> The [[San Francisco Chronicle]] news article stated the following in regards to homosexuality and [[MRSA]]:<br /> {{Cquote|A new variety of staph bacteria, highly resistant to antibiotics and possibly transmitted by sexual contact, is spreading among gay men in San Francisco, Boston, New York and Los Angeles, researchers reported Monday.<ref>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/15/MNI5UE0L8.DTL</ref>}}<br /> <br /> On February 19, 2008 the ''Annals of Internal Medicine'' published a study regarding antiobiotic resistant staph infection in relation to men who have sex with men and the abstract for the article states the following in relation to homosexuality and MRSA: <br /> {{Cquote|Infection with multidrug-resistant USA300 MRSA is common among men who have sex with men, and multidrug-resistant MRSA infection might be sexually transmitted in this population.<ref>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18283202?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and Mental Health ===<br /> [[Image:Desperation_man.jpg‎|thumb|205px|right|Studies have long indicated that homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from psychiatric problems ([[suicide]], [[depression]], [[bulimia]], antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse).<ref>http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/Gender/Site/depression/mental_problems.htm</ref> ]]<br /> In respect to [[Mental Health and Homosexuality|homosexuality and mental health]], studies have long indicated that homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from psychiatric problems ([[suicide]], [[depression]], [[bulimia]], antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse).<ref>http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/Gender/Site/depression/mental_problems.htm</ref><br /> <br /> For example, a national survey of female homosexuals was published in the ''Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology'' which found that 75 percent of the approximate 2,000 respondents had pursued psychological counseling of some type, many for treatment of long-term depression or sadness.<ref>Book: Disabusing Sexuality By Canon Nathan Karema, page 23</ref><br /> <br /> In contrast to claims by [[gay rights]] activists blaming this heightened incidence of mental issues on discrimination, John R. Diggs, M.D. states the following regarding homosexuality and mental health:<br /> {{Cquote|An extensive study in the [[Netherlands]] undermines the assumption that [[homophobia]] is the cause of increased psychiatric illness among gays and lesbians. The [[Netherlands|Dutch]] have been considerably more accepting of same-sex relationships than other [[Western World|Western countries]] — in fact, same-sex couples now have the legal right to marry in the Netherlands. So a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with homosexual behavior in the Netherlands means that the psychiatric disease cannot so easily be attributed to social rejection and homophobia.<ref>http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==== It Gets Better Project ====<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Atheism and suicide]]<br /> <br /> The [[It Gets Better project]] is a misguided liberal project to prevent young homosexuals from committing suicide and it does not encourage young people to become [[ex-homosexuals]]. In January of 2012, [[Vox Day]] reported that two homosexual males who promoted the It Gets Better project committed suicide. (see also: [[Mental Health and Homosexuality]]).<ref>http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/01/it-really-doesnt-get-better.html</ref><br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and Cigarette Smoking===<br /> <br /> [[Image:A24987~.jpg‎|thumb|right|175px|The recent medical literature states the homosexual men and lesbians in the [[United States]] have significantly higher rates of cigarrete smoking than [[heterosexuality|heterosexuals]].]]<br /> <br /> In relation to [[Homosexuality and Smoking|homosexuality and smoking]], the recent medical literature states the homosexual men and lesbians in the [[United States]] have significantly higher rates of cigarette smoking than [[heterosexuality|heterosexuals]].<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15456993&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus Cigarette smoking among lesbians, gays, and bisexuals: how serious a problem? (United States), Cancer Causes & Control, 2004 Oct;15(8):797-803]</ref><ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17018152&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus Gay/Lesbian sexual orientation increases risk for cigarette smoking and heavy drinking among members of a large Northern California health plan, BMC Public Health. 2006 Oct 3;6:241]</ref><br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and Anal Cancer===<br /> In June of 2004, the journal ''Nursing Clinics of North America'' reported the following regarding [[Homosexuality and Anal Cancer|homosexuality and anal cancer]]:<br /> {{cquote|One of the more pressing issues for gay men is anal [[carcinoma]]. Several recent studies have indicated the rate of anal dysplasia to be increasing in men with and without [[HIV]]. Ninety percent of men with HIV have the human papiloma virus ([[HPV]]), while 65% of men without HIV have HPV. HVP type 16 is the most troublesome for developing [[cancer]] and is found in a significant portion of gay men.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15159188 Nursing Clinics of North America North Am. 2004 Jun;39(2):404]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 1997, [[Concerned Women of America]] reported the following regarding homosexuality and anal cancer:<br /> {{cquote|Homosexual men's practice of &#97;&#110;&#97;&#108; sex has left many of them victims of anal [[cancer]]. One article in the ''New England Journal of Medicine'' commented, "Our study lends strong support to the hypothesis that homosexual behavior in men increases the risk of anal cancer: 21 of the 57 men with anal cancer (37 percent) reported that they were homosexual or bisexual, in contrast to only one of 64 controls." The [[JAMA|Journal of the American Medical Association]] also published similar findings: "[[Epidemiology|Epidemiological]] studies have shown that risk factors for anal cancer include homosexuality, history of receptive anal intercourse, presence of anal condylomata, and smoking." And the ''International Journal of Cancer'' stated, "Being single and having practised anal intercourse appears to be associated with anal cancer and case reports have suggested a recent increase in the number of cases of anal cancer." Other studies have yielded the same conclusions.<ref>Concerned women of America - former website page</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and penile cancer ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Homosexuality and penile cancer]]<br /> <br /> [[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and obesity ===<br /> <br /> ''See:'' [[Homosexuality and obesity]]<br /> <br /> ==== Lesbianism and its correlation to higher obesity ====<br /> [[File:11834504 3cc3c49559.jpg|205px|right|thumbnail|In April of 2007, the ''American Journal of Public Health'' analyzed data from 2002 National Survey of Family Growth and the data suggested that [[United States|American]] lesbian women were 2.69 times more likely to be overweight and 2.47 times more likely to be obese than all other female sexual orientation groups.<br /> <ref name="ajph">[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17463369&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Overweight and Obesity in Sexual-Minority Women: Evidence From Population-Based Data, Ulrike Boehmer, Deborah J. Bowen, Greta R. Bauer, American Journal of Public Health, 2007 Jun;97(6):1134-40. E pub 2007 Apr 26.]</ref> ]]<br /> ''For more information please see:'' [[Lesbianism and Obesity]]<br /> <br /> In 2013, the [[National Institutes of Health]] (NIH) reported that 75% of American [[lesbianism|lesbians]] are [[obese]].<ref>[http://cnsnews.com/news/article/feds-spend-15-million-study-why-lesbians-are-fat Feds Spend $1.5 Million to Study Why Lesbians Are Fat - CNS News]</ref> In addition, in April of 2007 the'' American Journal of Public Health'' analyzed data from 2002 National Survey of Family Growth and the data suggested that [[United States|American]] lesbian women were 2.69 times more likely to be overweight and 2.47 times more likely to be obese than all other female sexual orientation groups.<br /> <ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17463369&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Overweight and Obesity in Sexual-Minority Women: Evidence From Population-Based Data, Ulrike Boehmer, Deborah J. Bowen, Greta R. Bauer, American Journal of Public Health, 2007 Jun;97(6):1134-40. E pub 2007 Apr 26.]</ref> The abstract for this study indicated that "lesbians are at greater risk for morbidity and mortality linked to overweight and obesity." <ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17463369&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Overweight and Obesity in Sexual-Minority Women: Evidence From Population-Based Data, Ulrike Boehmer, Deborah J. Bowen, Greta R. Bauer, American Journal of Public Health, 2007 Jun;97(6):1134-40. E pub 2007 Apr 26.]</ref><br /> <br /> In 2009, the ''PubMed'' article abstract for the Polish psychiatry journal ''Psychiatria Polska'' article ''Body Image in [[Homosexual]] Persons'' declared:<br /> {{Cquote|Homosexual women are less concentrated on physical appearance and more satisfied with their bodies while being more tolerant to obesity.... For lesbian women the ideal body image is more massive than for heterosexual women.<ref>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19694404?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 2007, a purported [[lesbian]] wrote to [[Andrew Sullivan]], the political commentator and administrator of ''The Daily Dish'' blog:<br /> {{Cquote|And - oh heck, I'll admit it - aesthetics have value, too! As a woman, I may not be as focused on looks as men are predisposed to be, but I sure am tired of seeing so many queer ladies out there who are way past 200 pounds. Way, way past. Sorry, but no amount of "fat acceptance" is going to make that a pleasant sight - gay, straight, butch, femme, male or female.<ref>[http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/obesity-and-lesbians/228917/ Obesity and Lesbians], Andrew Sullivan, ''Daily Dish'', May of 2007</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality, coronavirus infections and medical complications ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Homosexuality, coronavirus infections and medical complications]]<br /> <br /> ===Bible Prohibition Against Homosexuality and Sound Health Practices===<br /> <br /> Given the [[Homosexuality and health|many diseases associated with homosexuality]], the [[Bible|biblical]] prohibition against homosexuality is arguably one of the many examples where the [http://www.creationwiki.org/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge Bible exhibited knowledge that was ahead of its time.]<br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality and Illegal Drug Use==<br /> ''For more information please see:'' [[Homosexuality and Illegal Drug Use]] and [[Homosexual activists' ideology and loss of life]]<br /> [[Image:Powder meth foil small.jpg|thumb|right|205px|In 2007, the ''Los Angeles Times'' reported the frequency of [[methamphetamine]] use is twenty times greater among homosexuals than in the general population.]]<br /> In 2007, the ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'' reported the frequency of [[methamphetamine]] use is twenty times greater among homosexuals than in the general population.<ref>[http://www.narth.com/docs/methuse.html ''More Gay Men Using Meth, Study Finds,''] by R. Rosenblatt, Los Angeles Times, April 11, p. B6.</ref><br /> <br /> In January of 2007, the journal ''AIDS (London, England)'' in an article entitled ''Use of illicit drugs among gay men living with HIV in Sydney'' stated the following: "Higher rates of illicit drug use have been reported among gay men than among similar populations of heterosexual men..."<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17159587&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus AIDS (London, England), 2007 Jan;21 Suppl 1:S49-55]</ref><br /> <br /> In June of 2004, the journal ''Nursing Clinics of North America'' reported the following regarding homosexuality and illegal drug use:<br /> {{Cquote|...the increased use of recreational or party drugs such as ectasy, "poppers", and [[methamphetamine]] ("crystal meth") influence unsafe sexual behaviors in gay men. Many of these illicit drugs are used during "circuit parties," in which gay men from various geographical locales congregrate in one large metropolitan community over an extended 2- or 3-day period for the purposes of intense partying and sexual activity.<ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15159188 Nursing Clinics of North America North Am. 2004 Jun;39(2):403</ref>}}<br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexual circuit parties and disease|homosexual circuit parties and disease]]<br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality and the Suppression of Religious Liberty==<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality and Religious Liberty]]<br /> [[Image:Wicked.jpg|thumb|left|150px|The book ''When the Wicked Seize a City'' recounts how Pastor [[Chuck McIlhenny]] and his church were terrorized by homosexual activists.]] <br /> There have been a notable number of incidents involving the issue of [[Homosexuality and Religious Liberty|homosexuality and the suppresion of religious liberty]] in regards to dissent and the objectionableness of homosexuality.<br /> <br /> *Dr. [[Chuck McIlhenny]] served as pastor of San Francisco's First Orthodox [[Presbyterian]] Church for numerous years.<ref>[http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=123 Fighting the good fight in San Francisco]</ref> In 1978 Dr. McIlhenny co-authored a book which recounted how he was threatened and his church and home firebombed by homosexual activists subsequent to a lawsuit he won regarding the church's right to fire its organist who was homosexual.<ref>[https://world.wng.org/2015/05/in_the_beginning In the beginning] by Chuck McIlhenny, Donna McIlhenny & Frank York</ref>Dr. McIlhenny's home was firebombed while his family was sleeping inside.<ref>[http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=123 Fighting the good fight in San Francisco]</ref> <br /> <br /> *The [[documentary film]] [[A Nation Adrift]] chronicles some of the events that took place during the [[Hamilton Square Baptist Church Riot|Hamilton Square Baptist Church riot]] in [[San Francisco]] in which a angry group of male homosexuals and [[lesbian]]s vandalized church property, assaulted church members, terrorized church congregates, screamed profanity, threw rocks, harassed and scared children, and disrupted a church service.<ref>[[Christianity Today]], November 8, 1993, v37, page 57</ref><ref>[http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41037 'Finest video ever produced' about U.S.A.], 'Upbeat, unforgettable evening of entertainment. Feel good about America again', ''WorldNetDaily.com'', January 4, 2007.</ref> See also: [[Homosexual Public Indecency Tolerated in San Francisco]]<br /> <br /> *In 2005, [[David Parker]] was arrested and put in handcuffs at his child's school in relation to a lesson promoting homosexuality called the "King & King" being taught to first graders in the [[ Massachusetts]] school. <ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/09/28/david-parker-enda-and-the-battle-for-our-childrens-hearts/ David Parker, ‘King and King,’ and the Battle for Our Children’s Hearts and Minds]</ref><ref>[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46431 Dad on trial over homosexual book]</ref> David Parker desired parental rights but the principal at Esterbrook Elementary School in Lexington defended the “King & King” lesson and denied parents the right to be informed about it and to opt their kids out. <ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/09/28/david-parker-enda-and-the-battle-for-our-childrens-hearts/ David Parker, ‘King and King,’ and the Battle for Our Children’s Hearts and Minds]</ref> The "King and King" violated David Parker and his wife's religious beliefs regarding homosexuality.<ref>[http://americansfortruth.com/2007/09/28/david-parker-enda-and-the-battle-for-our-childrens-hearts/ David Parker, ‘King and King,’ and the Battle for Our Children’s Hearts and Minds]</ref> The Massachusetts anti-[[Homosexual Agenda|homosexual agenda]] organization MassResistance has a webpage devoted to the events surrounding the David Parker issue and the ongoing legal battle associated with the matter.<ref>[http://www.massresistance.org/docs/parker/ David Parker -- his arrest, court appearances, abuse by school officials, harassment by pro-gay activists in town, and federal civil rights lawsuit!]</ref><br /> <br /> *In 2004, eleven Christians, who have been dubbed the "[[Philly 11]]", were arrested at a [[Philadelphia]] event promoting homosexual-rights and some of the charges were felonies.<ref>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40929</ref><ref>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50409</ref> Among those who were arrested were Arlene Elshinnawy, a 75-year-old grandmother of three, and Linda Beckman, a 70-year-old grandmother of 10 who were arrested for sharing their faith on the public sidewalk.<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56702</ref> In 2005, after national publicity led to widespread criticism of the arrests (especially the heavy penalties being threatened) a judge dismissed all criminal charges.<ref>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50409</ref> In 2006, a United States federal judge ruled the group of homosexuals could not dismiss a lawsuit against the homosexual activist group Philly Pride Presents which was brought against them by the Christian protestors.<ref>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50409</ref><br /> [[Image:HamSquare.jpg|thumbnail|100px|left|[[Hamilton Square Baptist Church Riot|Hamilton Square Baptist Church]]]]<br /> *In October of 2001, a 69 year old street preacher named [[Harry Hammond]] from Bournemouth, [[England]] was subjected to assault by an angry crowd of 40 people while he proclaimed his Christian views in the town center which included a call to repentance in respect to homosexuality.<ref>http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/cases/harry_hammond.htm</ref> Mr. Hammond was arrested, prosecuted and fined but no arrests were made in respect to those who assaulted him.<ref>http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/cases/harry_hammond.htm</ref> Appeals to overturn the verdict, which included an appeal to the [[European Court of Human Rights]], were dismissed. <ref>http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/cases/harry_hammond.htm</ref><br /> <br /> *[[WorldNetDaily]] reported the following regarding the famous St. Patrick's Cathedral Incident involving homosexual and [[abortion]] activists:<br /> {{cquote|One infamous incident was the assault on New York’s famed St. Patrick's Cathedral on December 10, 1989. While [[Cardinal John O'Connor]] presided over the 10:15 Sunday morning Mass, a multitude of "pro-choice" and "gay rights" activists protested angrily outside. Some, wearing gold-colored robes similar to clerical vestments, hoisted a large portrait of a pornographically altered frontal nude portrait of [[Jesus]].<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46887</ref>}}<br /> <br /> *The [[It Gets Better Project]] is currently a national embarrassment. In 2012, [[homosexual activist]] Dan Savage was supposed to deliver an anti-bullying message to [[high school]] students. However, as many as 100 students walked out on his speech as he shouted vulgarities about the [[Bible]] and mocked [[Christian]]s. <ref name="mocks">[http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/anti-bullying-speaker-curses-mocks-christian-teens.html Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens] Starnes, Todd, FoxNews Radio, April 27, 2012</ref> It was reported that Savage engaged in verbal bullying as well. <ref name="mocks"/><br /> <br /> == Roman Catholic Church, Homosexuality, and the Sexual Molestation of Minors ==<br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]]<br /> <br /> Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the American Roman Catholic bishops and the Vatican had noted a growing problem with clerical sexual abuse in the U.S.<ref>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26940</ref> In addition, Ireland and other European countries have experienced problems relating to instances of Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing children.<ref>http://www.daily49er.com/opinion/our-view-catholic-church-needs-administrative-reform-1.2200659</ref> <br /> <br /> Catholic League president Bill Donohue declared concerning the scandals of priests molesting minors:<br /> {{cquote|The latest attempt to silence me comes from GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), Call to Action and the Interfaith Alliance. The three left-wing organizations have joined hands demanding that the media "ignore Bill Donohue." Their complaint? My telling the truth about the role homosexual priests have played in the abuse scandal.<br /> <br /> The data collected by John Jay College of Criminal Justice show that between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent of the victims were male and 75 percent of them were post-pubescent. In other words, three out of every four victims have been abused by homosexuals. By the way, puberty, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, begins at age 10 for boys.<br /> <br /> No problem can be remedied without an accurate diagnosis. And any accurate diagnosis that does not finger the role that homosexuals have played in molesting minors is intellectually dishonest. The cover-up must end. And so must attempts to muzzle my voice. Everything I am saying is what most people already know, but are afraid to say it. It's time for some straight talk.<ref>[http://www.catholicleague.org/attempts-to-censor-donohue-fail/ Attempt to censor Donohue fail]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Bill Donahue published in the [[New York Times]]:<br /> {{cquote|The Times continues to editorialize about the "pedophilia crisis", when all along it's been a homosexual crisis. Eighty percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male and most of them are post-pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior, and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay.<ref>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==HIV Infected Young People and Infection by Older Men ==<br /> ''For related information please see'': [[Teenager Homosexuality]] and [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]]<br /> [[Image:AIDS_virus.jpg‎|thumbnail|right|205px|Stylized rendering of a cross-section of the [[Human Immunodeficiency Virus]]]]<br /> In 2006, the noted pediatric journal entitled ''Journal of Adolescent Health'' published a position paper entitled ''[[HIV]] infection and [[AIDS]] in adolescents: An update of the position of the Society for Adolescent Medicine''. <ref>Position Paper: ''[[HIV]] infection and [[AIDS]] in adolescents: An update of the position of the Society for Adolescent Medicine''Journal of Adolescent Health 38 (2006) 88–91</ref> The aforementioned 2006 position paper of the Journal of Adolescent Health stated the following: "Among adolescents and young adults with HIV or AIDS, most infections are acquired by having sex with HIV-infected men."<ref>Position Paper: ''[[HIV]] infection and [[AIDS]] in adolescents: An update of the position of the Society for Adolescent Medicine''Journal of Adolescent Health 38 (2006) 88–91]</ref> In addition, the ''Journal of Adolecent Health'' stated the following:<br /> {{cquote|As of December 31, 2003, almost 38,500 cases of AIDS had been reported in adolescents and young adults 13–24 years old in the United States of America. Previous studies demonstrating that the risk of AIDS increased with the age at infection suggest that a large proportion of people developing AIDS in their third decade of life became infected with HIV as teens.<ref>Position Paper: ''[[HIV]] infection and [[AIDS]] in adolescents: An update of the position of the Society for Adolescent Medicine''Journal of Adolescent Health 38 (2006) 88–91]</ref>}}<br /> ===Medical Community Negligence and Government Negligence===<br /> <br /> ''Please see:'' [[Teenage AIDS]] and [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]]<br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and Older Homosexuals Preying on Vulnerable Youth===<br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]]<br /> <br /> The pro-homosexuality publication ''The Advocate'' in 1992 made the following admission in regards to homosexuality and HIV infection in American youth:<br /> {{cquote|Gay boys and straight girls who are having sex for money, shelter, love - they are at risk. And our community, the gay and lesbian community - and I particularly fault gay men here - has done nothing to try to help our youth. Gay men view these boys as recreational toys to be used. I have heard many stories of HIV-positive men having unprotected sex with boys. They don’t think it matters.<ref>''America's Worst Kept Secret - AIDS is devastating the Nation's Teenager and Gay Kids are Dying by the Thousands'', Victoria A. BrownsWorth, ''The Advocate'', March 24, 1992, page 41.</ref>}}<br /> <br /> In 1991, the medical researcher Kruks reported the following in the ''Journal of Adolescent Health'' regarding homosexuality and HIV infection among youth:<br /> {{cquote|Gay male street youth, as well as nonlesbian female street youths, seem to be particularly vulnerable for emotional as well as sexual exploitation... <br /> <br /> These relationships are often extremely damaging for a number of reasons. The "sugar daddy" usually presents himself to the youth in a loving caretaker role. For a street youth who has a past history of rejection and/or abuse, the promise of being loved and cared for is a compelling one. However, these relationships in many ways have similar dynamics to incest. <br /> <br /> Many gay youths coming to YSD [Youth Services Dept. of Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Community Service Center] for services have long histories of being involved in a succession of "sugar daddy" relationships. Each of these is a cycle of falling in love, believing that life will now be wonderful forever and that this older adult truly loves the young person, discovering that in fact it is just sex that the adult wants, feeling the impact of one more betrayal, and ending up on the streets again. The whole cycle last an average of 1-2 months, and the youth often becomes extremely [[suicide|suicidal]] at the end of each cycle.<ref>http://fathersforlife.org/dale/heartbea.html</ref><ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1772888&dopt=AbstractPlus Kruks, G. (1991) Gay and lesbian homeless/street youth: Special issues and concerns. Journal of Adolescent Health. 12: page 518]</ref>}} <br /> <br /> In 1995, the medical journal'' Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine'' stated the following:<br /> {{cquote|Another group at high risk for HIV infection is young men reporting sex with other men....Many young gay men tested in homeless youth centers reproted exchanging money or drugs for sex, which may place them at high risk for HIV infection. Young men who are homeless or runaways who barter for sex with same-sex partners may not consider themselves gay and thus may beyond the reach of prevention messages targeting the gay community.<ref>[http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/149/5/521 Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, Volume 149, May 1995, page 527]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Homosexuality and pedophilia studies ===<br /> <br /> See: [[Homosexuality and pedophilia studies]]<br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality and Pedophilia - Journal of Homosexuality, International Lesbian and Gay Federation (ILGA) and NAMBLA ===<br /> <br /> ''see also:'' [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]]<br /> <br /> There are notable instances of prominent homosexual organizations being permissive towards pedophilia or condoning/promoting pedophilia. For example, the ''[[Journal of Homosexuality]]'' is a academic journal which has featured material that looks upon pedophilia in a generally approvingly manner.<ref>http://www.narth.com/docs/pedophNEW.html</ref><ref>http://www.narth.com/docs/arguecase.html</ref> For example, an article by Dr. Brongersma stated that parents should not view a pedophile "as a rival or competitor, not as a thief of their property, but as a partner in the boy's upbringing, someone to be welcomed into their home..."<ref>http://www.narth.com/docs/arguecase.html</ref><br /> <br /> The International Lesbian and Gay Association was founded in 1978 and is a world-wide network of national and local homosexual groups has more than 620 member organizations.<ref>http://www.ilga.org/</ref> In 1993 the ILGA obtained consultative status on the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) but in 1994 they lost their status due to groups within their membership, most notably the [[North American Man/Boy Love Association]] (NAMBLA) and Vereniging MARTIJN, advocating pedophilia or expressing solidarity with pro-pedophilia groups.<ref>http://americansfortruth.com/issues/government-promotion/united-nations/</ref> ILGA expelled the groups associated with pedophilia but they were denied <br /> ECOSOC decided against restoring ILGA’s consultative status in 2002 and once again in January 2006.<ref>http://americansfortruth.com/issues/government-promotion/united-nations/</ref> NAMBLA had been a member of the ILGA for a decade before it was expelled by the ILGA. NAMBLA calls itself a homosexual organization.<br /> [[Image:Harry Hay.jpg|thumbnail|120px|Many consider [[Harry Hay]] to be the founder of the American homosexual movement.]]<br /> <br /> ===Homosexuality, Pedophilia, NAMBLA and the Media ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]] <br /> <br /> Steve Baldwin published the following in the [[Regent University]] Law Review regarding homosexuality and pedophilia:<br /> {{cquote|Indeed, some [[NAMBLA]] chapters meet at mainstream gay centers such as Philadelphia’s Gay and Lesbian Community Center. NAMBLA’s meetings and conferences always feature mainstream gay leaders and speakers. For example, Don Kilhefner, of the Los Angeles Gay Community Service Center, gave a speech to Los Angeles NAMBLA members on the subject of "The Significance of Man/Boy Love in the Gay Community.<br /> <br /> The most comprehensive gay networking website, the Queer Resource Directory ....links every gay group in the country<br /> including NAMBLA and other homosexual groups that focus on youth. NAMBLA marches in gay pride parades with the consent of the gay leadership. Many of the homosexual movement’s most prominent leaders endorse NAMBLA and its goals. Gay authors and leaders such as [[Allen Ginsberg]], Gayle Rubin, [[Larry Kramer]] (founder of ACT-UP), Pat Califia, Jane Rule, Michael Kearns, and Michel Foucault have all written in favor of either NAMBLA or man-boy relationships. [[Harry Hay]], whom many consider the founder of the American homosexual movement, invited NAMBLA members to march with him in the 1993 "March on Washington" gay rights parade. He also marched in the 1986 Los Angeles gay parade wearing a shirt emblazoned with the words "NAMBLA walks with me."<br /> <br /> Leading mainstream homosexual newspapers and magazines such as the Advocate, Edge, Metroline, The Guide, and The San Francisco<br /> Sentinel have not only published pro-NAMBLA articles and columns but also many have editorialized in favor of NAMBLA and sex with children.<ref>http://www.mega.nu/ampp/baldwin_pedophilia_homosexuality.pdf</ref>}}<br /> <br /> === Atheism, homosexuality, pederasty and NAMBLA ===<br /> <br /> ''see also:'' [[Atheism, pederasty and NAMBLA]] and [[Homosexuality and pedophilia]]<br /> <br /> Some of the well known [[atheism|atheist]] advocates of the [[NAMBLA|North American Man-Boy Love Association]] are:<br /> <br /> 1. The atheist and homosexual [[David Thorstad]] was a founding member of the North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).<ref>http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/100822</ref> <br /> <br /> 2. '''[[Harry Hay]]''' (1912 - 2002) was an [[liberal]] advocate of [[statutory rape]] and the widely acknowledged founder and progenitor of the activist [[homosexual agenda]] in the [[United States]]. Hay joined the [[Communist Party of the United States]] (CPUSA) in 1934. <ref>''The Boston Phoenix'', [http://bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/02511115.htm The real Harry Hay], Michael Bronski, October 31 - November 7, 2002. </ref> Harry Hay was an [[atheism|atheist]].<ref>http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/ss_politics0010_01_07.asp</ref> He was a vociferous advocate of man/boy love. <ref>The American Spectator Special Report, [http://spectator.org/articles/46366/when-nancy-met-harry When Nancy Met Harry], Jeffrey Lord, 10/5/2006.</ref><ref>http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/ss_politics0010_01_07.asp</ref> In 1986, Hay marched in a [[homosexual|gay]] parade wearing a shirt emblazoned with the words "[[NAMBLA]] walks with me."<ref>http://www.mega.nu/ampp/baldwin_pedophilia_homosexuality.pdf</ref><br /> <br /> ==== Liberal economist John Maynard Keynes and pederasty ====<br /> <br /> ''See:'' [[John Maynard Keynes and pederasty]]<br /> <br /> == Homosexuality in schools ==<br /> <br /> Please see:<br /> <br /> * [[Homosexuality in Schools|Homosexuality in Schools]]<br /> <br /> * [[State Sponsored Workshop - Educators Teach Kids Homosexual Sex]]<br /> <br /> ==Homosexual Parenting and the American College of Pediatricians==<br /> In 2004, the [[American College of Pediatricians]] stated the following regarding [[Homosexual Parenting|homosexuality and parenting]]:<br /> {{cquote|Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation. Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts...<br /> <br /> The research literature on childrearing by homosexual parents is limited. The environment in which children are reared is absolutely critical to their development. Given the current body of research, the American College of Pediatricians believes it is inappropriate, potentially hazardous to children, and dangerously irresponsible to change the age-old prohibition on homosexual parenting, whether by adoption, foster care, or by reproductive manipulation. This position is rooted in the best available science.<ref>http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality in the Media==<br /> <br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality in the Media]] and [[Fox News and homosexuality]] and [[Homosexual activists' ideology and loss of life]]<br /> [[Image:Rev. Louis P. Sheldon Photo.jpg|thumb|Reverend [[Louis Sheldon]] is a founder of the [[Traditional Values Coalition]] ]]<br /> The [[Traditional Values Coalition]] states the following regarding the reporting of homosexuality and the [[United States]] media:<br /> {{cquote|The [[National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association]] has hundreds of members and is heavily funded by Hearst newspapers, Knight-Ridder, [[CBS News]], [[CNN]], Gannett, [[NBC]], [[Los Angeles Times]], [[Fox News]], and more. Major newspapers throughout the U.S. have homosexual activists on their staffs who filter what you read about homosexuality.<ref>http://www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/Homosexuality101.pdf</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Accuracy in Media]] declared concerning the Fox News Channel:<br /> {{cquote|Media organizations which underwrote the convention included NBC News, Times Inc., Turner Broadcasting, Knight-Ridder, the Washington Post and Fox News Network. That’s right - Fox News. This is supposed to be a conservative network. ABC, NBC, CBS, the New York Times, and USA Today all sent recruiters to the event, to hire open gays as journalists. Fitzpatrick comments, "By treating the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association as a legitimate counterpart to black and Hispanic journalists’ associations, these media organizations showed that they agree with the notion that homosexuals, a group defined by behavior rather than immutable characteristics, constitute a bona fide minority."<ref>http://ghroll.blogspot.com/2008/03/homosexuality-in-media.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> Previously, the Fox Broadcasting Company website declares concerning the [[National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association]] (NLGJA):<br /> {{cquote|NLGJA Annual Conference and Job Fair<br /> Fox News is a regular exhibitor at these annual Job Fairs. News Corp sponsored the opening reception for first time attendees in 2006, as well as sponsoring workshops on Journalism in various colleges in 2007.<ref>Previous posting on the Fox News website</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ===Coverage of the Murders of Jesse Dirkhising and Matthew Shephard===<br /> <br /> In respect to the issue of homosexuality, the case of [[Matthew Shepard]] [[Hate crime|was likely not a hate crime according to one of the leading police investigators for the murder]].<ref>http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=277685&page=3</ref><br /> <br /> == Homosexual Agenda ==<br /> <br /> {{main|Homosexual agenda}}<br /> <br /> [[United States Supreme Court]] Justice [[Antonin Scalia]] wrote regarding the following regarding homosexuality and the law:<br /> {{cquote|Today's opinion is the product of a Court, which is the product of a law-profession culture, that has largely signed on to the so-called homosexual agenda, by which I mean the agenda promoted by some homosexual activists directed at eliminating the moral opprobrium that has traditionally attached to homosexual conduct.<ref>http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=02-102#dissent1</ref>}}<br /> <br /> [[Focus on the Family]] stated the following regarding the issue of the homosexual agenda in respect to the homosexual community:<br /> {{Cquote|It is an agenda that they basically set in the late 1980s, in a book called "After the Ball," where they laid out a six-point plan for how they could transform the beliefs of ordinary Americans with regard to homosexual behavior — in a decade-long time frame...there is an agenda. They admit it privately, but they will not say that publicly. In their private publications, homosexual activists make it very clear that there is an agenda. The six-point agenda that they laid out in 1989 was explicit...<ref>http://www.citizenlink.org/CLFeatures/A000000562.cfm</ref>}}<br /> [[Image:Kupelianbookcover220.jpg|thumbnail|175px|right|The book ''The Marketing of Evil'' by [[David Kupelian]] describes how [[Harvard]]-educated [[marketing]] professionals Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen were able to change some American's perceptions regarding homosexuality.]]<br /> There were publications in 1987 and 1989 by homosexual activists Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen which outlined a strategy to change America's perception of homosexuality and it included the following six strategies:<br /> <br /> # Talk about homosexuals and homosexuality as loudly and often as possible. (Through sheer perseverance the opposition will be worn down).<ref>[http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1152960/posts Book Review of The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing The Principal Threat To Religious Freedom Today by Alan Sears and Craig Osten]</ref><br /> # Portray homosexuals as victims, not aggressive challengers..<ref>[http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1152960/posts Book Review of The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing The Principal Threat To Religious Freedom Today by Alan Sears and Craig Osten]</ref><br /> # Give homosexual protectors a “just” cause..<ref>[http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1152960/posts Book Review of The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing The Principal Threat To Religious Freedom Today by Alan Sears and Craig Osten]</ref><br /> # Make homosexuals look good..<ref>[http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1152960/posts Book Review of The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing The Principal Threat To Religious Freedom Today by Alan Sears and Craig Osten]</ref> <br /> #Make the "victimizers" look bad..<ref>[http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1152960/posts Book Review of The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing The Principal Threat To Religious Freedom Today by Alan Sears and Craig Osten]</ref> <br /> #Solicit funds. For example, get corporate America and major foundations to financially support the homosexual cause.<ref>[http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1152960/posts Book Review of The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing The Principal Threat To Religious Freedom Today by Alan Sears and Craig Osten]</ref><br /> <br /> [[Arguments Against Homosexuality]] are branded by homosexual activists and [[liberals]] as irrational and hateful with the use of terms like "[[homophobia]]". However, this term itself can also be a form of intimidation against opposition. Rather than attack their arguments they use a personal attack, labeling the opposer simply afraid. Pastor Darryl L. Foster, a former homosexual, states that homosexual activists are afraid of the testimony of [[Ex-Homosexuals|ex-homosexuals]] to the public at large and that they suffer from "[[Ex-Homosexuals|exgayphobia]]".<br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexual activists' ideology and loss of life]]<br /> <br /> ===The Marketing of Evil===<br /> <br /> The book ''[[The Marketing of Evil]]'' by [[David Kupelian]] describes how [[Harvard]]-educated [[marketing]] professionals Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen (who authored the acknowledged public relations [[Bible]] of the homosexual-rights movement ''After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the '90s'') were able to change some American's perceptions regarding homosexuality.<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49958</ref> <br /> <br /> See also: [[Homosexual activists' ideology and loss of life]]<br /> <br /> ==Views on Homosexuality==<br /> <br /> See: [[Views on Homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> == Homosexuality, Marriage and homosexuality laws ==<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexual Marriage]]<br /> <br /> For many years, the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality as a mental disorder. However, the organization de-listed homosexuality in 1973.<ref>http://www.apa.org/pi/reslgbc.html</ref> Since the late 1960s, many people, both homosexual and heterosexual, have lobbied for more favorable laws for homosexuals.<br /> <br /> Legal "marriage" between same-sex couples is now recognized in [[Canada]], [[Spain]], [[South Africa]], [[Belgium]], [[Israel]] and the [[Netherlands]]. Most other western [[Europe|European]] nations and several US states recognize a more limited [[marriage]] or civil union. 26 US states have passed constitutional amendments banning recognition of same-sex marriages, and [[federal law]] does not recognize [[same-sex "marriage"]].<br /> <br /> For more information please see: [[Homosexuality laws]]<br /> <br /> === Religious conservatism and anti-homosexuality laws ===<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Religious conservatism and politics]]<br /> <br /> In 2016, the ''Independent'' reported that homosexuality is illegal in 74 countries.<ref>[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/gay-lesbian-bisexual-relationships-illegal-in-74-countries-a7033666.html LGBT relationships are illegal in 74 countries, research finds], Independent, 2016</ref> Islamic countries ban homosexuality. [[Russia]] which has seen [[Collapse of atheism in the former Soviet Union|a resurgence of religion]] now has a law against promoting homosexuality.<ref>[https://www.rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome Gay rights in Russia: Facts and Myths]</ref><br /> <br /> A study conducted by the Washington-based Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life says that [[Africa]]ns are among the most religious people on Earth (see also: [[Black atheism]]).<ref name="ffrf.org">[http://ffrf.org/outreach/item/13652-why-so-many-africans-are-religious Why so many Africans are religious: Leo Igwe]</ref> In addition, evangelical Christianity is growing quickly in Africa. In North Africa Islam is the majority religion. In 2015, out of the 55 states recognised by the United Nations or African Union, 34 of countries outlaw homosexuality.<ref>[https://africacheck.org/reports/same-sex-relations-illegal-in-34-african-states-likely-35/ How many African states outlaw same-sex relations? (At least 34)], Africa Check</ref>.<br /> <br /> == The Homosexuality and Animals Myth==<br /> ''For more information please see'': [[Homosexuality in Animals Myth]]<br /> <br /> [[Image:Carl wieland.jpg|thumbnail|150px|left|Dr. [[Carl Wieland]] - Managing Director of [[Creation Ministries International]].]]<br /> In respect to the [[Homosexuality in Animals Myth|homosexuality and animals myth]], there is currently interest on whether homosexual behavior is or is not [[zoology|zoologically]] "natural." This is largely a sterile debate because behavior is not necessarily moral even if "natural;" because the nature of human beings is not necessarily the same as the nature of other species, and because it is not at all clear when an observed behavior can be counted as "sexual," or as implying a sexual "orientation." Also, [[Creation Ministries International]] wrote on this subject of whether or not there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom: "There is...documented proof of [[cannibalism]] and rape in the animal kingdom, but that doesn’t make it right for humans."<ref>http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/2774</ref><br /> <br /> A 1996 article, published by an organization committed to the treatment of homosexuality, musters the arguments against interpretation of animal behavior as sanctioning homosexuality.<ref>[http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html The Animal Homosexuality Myth], Luiz Sérgio Solimeo, excerpt from book ''Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same Sex "Marriage" and the Homosexual Movement.''</ref> It notes that "homosexual scientist Simon LeVay" stated that the evidence pointed to isolated acts, not to homosexuality:<br /> {{Cquote|Although homosexual behavior is very common in the [[animal]] world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.}}<br /> <br /> In addition, Dr. Antonio Pardo, Professor of Bioethics at the University of Navarre, [[Spain]], wrote: <br /> {{Cquote|Properly speaking, homosexuality does not exist among animals.... For reasons of survival, the [[reproduction|reproductive]] instinct among animals is always directed towards an individual of the opposite sex. Therefore, an animal can never be homosexual as such. Nevertheless, the interaction of other instincts (particularly dominance) can result in behavior that appears to be homosexual. Such behavior cannot be equated with an animal homosexuality. All it means is that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction.<ref>http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == Nazi Germany and homosexuality ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Nazi Germany and homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> == Atheism and the persecution of homosexuals ==<br /> <br /> See: [[Atheism and the persecution of homosexuals]]<br /> <br /> == Log Cabin Republican's Purge Mark Foley Picture from Their Website ==<br /> <br /> Please see: [[Log Cabin Republican's Purge Mark Foley Picture from Their Website]]<br /> <br /> == Claims of Hate Crimes ==<br /> It is claimed that about 1100 [[hate crime]]s against homosexuals or their property occurred in 2004.<ref>[http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/ FBI 2004 hate crime statistics]</ref> But most of those offenses occurred against property rather than individuals, often the result of [[drug]]s or [[alcohol]]. Only a tiny percentage even involved aggravated assault or worse, and those classifications are not based on any proof at trial.<ref>''Id.''</ref><ref>FBI, Crime in the United States 2004, [FBI 2004 crime statistics, [http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/hctable4.htm Table 4 Offense Type by Bias Motivation]</ref> 74% of hate crimes are either crimes against property (e.g., theft, vandalism or graffiti) or a vague "intimidation".<ref>FBI 2004 crime statistics, [http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/#table2_33 Table 2.33]</ref> <br /> <br /> The degree of accuracy of statistics regarding homosexual hate crimes is debatable. For example, there are the homosexual hate crime hoaxes where homosexuals [[deceit|deceitfully]] faked hate crimes which never occurred.<ref>Girl Admits She Faked Gay-Bashing Incidents (Another "Hate Crime" Hoax)<br /> The Los Angeles Times, May 9, 2005</ref><ref>http://www.lairdwilcox.com/publish/crywolf.html</ref> An other example would be national statistics in the United States regarding homosexuals committing hate crimes against heterosexuals may be underreported and non-hate crimes against homosexuals are classified as hate crimes when they should not be (see: [[hate crime]]s for further details).<br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality Statistics - Percentage of Individuals Who Are Homosexuals==<br /> ''For additional homosexuality statistics please see'': [[Homosexuality Statistics]]<br /> <br /> The [[Traditional Values Coalition]] stated the following regarding homosexuality statistics:<br /> {{Cquote|A NEWLY RELEASED REPORT from the Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for Health Statistics reveals that only 2.3% of the population considers themselves homosexual. The statistics come from a 2002 National Survey of Family Growth and are based on 12,571 interviews with men and women ages 15-44 years of age. (The findings were reported in [[WorldNetDaily]], September 16, 2005).<ref>http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/two.php</ref>}}<br /> <br /> There have been a [[Homosexuality_Statistics|number of studies inside and outside the United States which have estimated the percentage of homosexuals in the human populations they studied]].<br /> <br /> Despite the fact that only 4.1% of the U.S. population identified as [[LGBT]], just over half a percentage point higher than four years prior,<ref>Gates, Gary J. (January 11, 2017). [http://www.gallup.com/poll/201731/lgbt-identification-rises.aspx?utm_source=Daily+Briefing&utm_campaign=e78663af9e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_05&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ed3d9d5277-e78663af9e-273636929&mc_cid=e78663af9e&mc_eid=6492c3988e&utm_source=Cultural+Commentary&utm_campaign=36e55c71c7-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_11_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_51f776a552-36e55c71c7-273780261&mc_cid=36e55c71c7&mc_eid=067f1df51b In US, More Adults Identifying as LGBT]. ''Gallup''. Retrieved January 18, 2017.</ref> Americans greatly overestimate the proportion of homosexuals in the nation to be an average of 23%.<ref name="GreatlyOver">Newport, Frank (May 21, 2015). [http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx?utm_source=Cultural+Commentary&utm_campaign=36e55c71c7-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_11_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_51f776a552-36e55c71c7-273780261&mc_cid=36e55c71c7&mc_eid=067f1df51b Americans Greatly Overestimate Percent Gay, Lesbian in U.S.] ''Gallup''. Retrieved January 18, 2017.</ref> Interestingly, Republicans and conservatives gave estimates closest to the actual number.<ref name="GreatlyOver"/><br /> <br /> == History of homosexuality ==<br /> <br /> ''For additional information please see:'' [[History of homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> As alluded to earlier, one of the most interesting matters regarding the [[History of homosexuality|history of homosexuality]] is that it has been rare in a number of cultures or been absent in some cultures. For example, Dr. Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead state regarding various cultures: "If homosexuality were significantly influenced by [[gene]]s, it would appear in every culture, but in twenty-nine of seventy-nine cultures surveyed by Ford and Beach in 1952, homosexuality was rare or absent."<ref>[http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm My Genes Made Me Do it - a scientific look at sexual orientation by Dr Neil Whitehead and Briar Whitehead - Chapter 6]</ref><br /> <br /> Two areas of historical inquiry in relation to ancient occurences of homosexuality which have been studied by historians are [[Roman Homosexuality|Roman homosexuality]] and [[Greek Homosexuality|Greek homosexuality]].<br /> <br /> For information concerning modern homosexuality see: <br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality Statistics|Homosexuality statistics]]<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and health|Homosexuality and disease]]<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and Religious Liberty]]<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality in the media]]<br /> <br /> *[[Views on Homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> == Recommended books ==<br /> <br /> * ''Critical Conversations: A Christian Parents' Guide to Discussing Homosexuality with Teens'' by Tom Gilson, Publisher: Kregel Publications (February 27, 2016), ISBN 0825443962 ISBN-13: 978-0825443961<br /> <br /> *''The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics'' by Robert A. J. Gagnon, Publisher: Abingdon Press; 8/16/02 edition (September 2002), ISBN-10: 0687022797 ISBN-13: 978-0687022793<br /> <br /> *Bummi Niyonu Anderson, Out of Darkness Into His Marvelous Light ISBN 0-9715323-7-0 <br /> <br /> *David Kupelian, ''The Marketing Of Evil'' ISBN 9781581824599<br /> *[[Louis Sheldon]], ''The Agenda: The [[Homosexual]] Plan to Change America'' - ISBN 1591857961 <br /> <br /> *Dr. [[Chuck McIlhenny]], ''When the Wicked Seize a City'' - ISBN 0595154328<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> *[[San Francisco values]] and the [[Homosexual agenda]]<br /> *[[ABC Theory of Emotion]]<br /> *[[Arguments Against Homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Articles on Homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Bisexuality]] - ''The orientation of being sexually attracted to members of both sexes.''<br /> *[[Causes of Homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Gender identity disorder]]<br /> *[[History of homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Nazi Germany and homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Atheism and the persecution of homosexuals]]<br /> *[[Homosexual activists and abortion]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and English Speaking Countries]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality in the military]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality laws]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality quotes]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality Research]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality Statistics]]<br /> *[[Homosexual logic]]<br /> *[[Homosexual politics]]<br /> *[[Overcoming Homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Evangelical Homosexual]]<br /> *[[Gay identity]]<br /> *[[Gay deceiver]]<br /> *[[Barry Winchell]]<br /> *[[Homosexual Gnostic]]<br /> *[[Homosexual censorship]]<br /> *[[Sexual immorality]]<br /> *[[Moral degeneration]]<br /> *[[Promiscuity]] versus [[Chastity]], [[Purity]], [[Celibacy]]<br /> *[[Cause and effect]]<br /> *[[Ten Commandments]]<br /> *[[Five Precepts]]<br /> * [[Values]]<br /> ** [[Conservative values]]<br /> ** [[Libertarianism|Libertarian values]]<br /> ** [[American values]]<br /> ** [[Small town values]]<br /> ** [[Family values]]<br /> versus:<br /> ** [[Liberal values]]<br /> ** [[Public school values]]<br /> ** [[Hollywood values]]<br /> ** [[San Francisco values]] and the [[Homosexual agenda]]: [[Homosexuality and Promiscuity]]<br /> ** [[Fashion industry values]]<br /> ** [[Professor values]]<br /> <br /> ==External links==<br /> <br /> '''Video:'''<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUW-AvGnhf0 Ex-homosexual Pastor DL Foster]<br /> <br /> '''Articles:'''<br /> <br /> *[http://thegoodpoliticalshepherd.com/is-homosexuality-still-a-sin-what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality.html Is Homosexuality Still a Sin? What does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?]<br /> *[http://carm.org/homosexuality Homosexuality]<br /> * [http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective]<br /> * [http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/may/homosex.htm On the Impossibility of Same-Sex Marriage] - William E. May, Michael J. McGivney Professor of Moral Theology, John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family at The Catholic University of America<br /> *[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12869220 Assessing the role of anal intercourse in the epidemiology of AIDS in Africa] - cites material concerning [[Gay bowel syndrome]]<br /> <br /> '''Homosexuality news:'''<br /> <br /> *[http://www.christianpost.com/topics/homosexuality Homosexuality news]<br /> *[http://www.americansfortruth.com/index.php Americans For Truth]<br /> *[http://gcmwatch.com/ Gay Christian Movement Watch]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Category:Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category:Sin]]<br /> [[Category:Sexuality]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_penile_cancer&diff=1665592 Homosexuality and penile cancer 2020-07-06T16:19:02Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|[[Homosexuality|Gay]], [[Bisexuality|bisexual]], and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and AIDS]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and Anal Cancer|Homosexuality and anal cancer]]<br /> *[[Gay bowel syndrome]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and health]]<br /> *[[Atheism and penile cancer]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> <br /> [[Category: Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category: Health]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_penile_cancer&diff=1665591 Homosexuality and penile cancer 2020-07-06T16:18:02Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* See also */</p> <hr /> <div>[[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and AIDS]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and Anal Cancer|Homosexuality and anal cancer]]<br /> *[[Gay bowel syndrome]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and health]]<br /> *[[Atheism and penile cancer]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> <br /> [[Category: Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category: Health]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_health&diff=1665590 Homosexuality and health 2020-07-06T16:16:34Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[Image:Biol 01 img0018.jpg|thumb|200px|right|[[Human Immunodeficiency Virus]] attacking T4 [[lymphocyte]]s]]<br /> {{Homosexuality}}<br /> Concerning '''homosexuality and health''', the [[Homosexuality|homosexual]] population has a significantly higher incidences of a number of diseases. <br /> <br /> One of the reasons for homosexual population having higher incidences of some diseases is the significantly higher incidences of promiscuity in the homosexual population (see: [[Homosexuality and promiscuity]]). <br /> <br /> Below are some articles in regards to homosexuality and health that cite the relevant medical literature:<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and AIDS]]<br /> *[[Syphilis and Homosexuality|Homosexuality and syphilis]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and Gonorrhea|Homosexuality and gonorrhea]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and proctitis]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and hepatitis]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and Parasites|Homosexuality and parasites]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and shigellosis]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and lymphogranuloma venereum]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and Anal Cancer|Homosexuality and anal cancer]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and penile cancer]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and smoking]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and Illegal Drug Use|Homosexuality and illegal drug use]]<br /> *[[Mental Health and Homosexuality|Homosexuality and mental health]]<br /> *[[Lesbianism and Obesity|Lesbianism and obesity]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and obesity]]<br /> *[[Gay bowel syndrome]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality, coronavirus infections and medical complications]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and MRSA]]<br /> *[[Homosexual circuit parties and disease]]<br /> <br /> In addition, according to the [[Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]] (CDC) from 1994 to 1997 the proportion of homosexual men stating they had &#97;&#110;&#97;&#108; &#115;&#101;&#120; increased from 57.6 percent to 61.2 percent.<ref>[http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS01B1 The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality]</ref> Although homosexual men may engage in sexual practices which may put them at risk, studies report that &#97;&#110;&#97;&#108; &#115;&#101;&#120; can be an important risk factor for the relay of many diseases.<ref>[http://www.springerlink.com/content/jx13231641717w48/ Intestinal Parasitism among Homosexual Male]</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20091104210119/https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/qa22.htm</ref><ref>http://www.rsm.ac.uk/media/downloads/std0703brody.pdf</ref><ref>http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/artikel.php?ID=37809</ref><ref>http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/25/1717</ref> <br /> <br /> == Homosexuality and its effect on the health of the general population ==<br /> <br /> In 2004, the prominent medical website, WebMD, stated the following: "[Bisexual] Men who have sex with men and women are a "significant bridge for [[HIV]] to women," the CDC's new data suggest."<ref>http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/20061101/hiv-bisexual-bridge-to-women</ref><br /> <br /> ==Homosexuality and violence==<br /> Another factor that is notable in regards to homosexuality and health is the significantly higher rates of [[Homosexual Couples and Domestic Violence|domestic violence in homosexual couples]]. In addition, according to experts [[Homosexuality and Murders|homosexual murders are relatively or quite common and often homosexual murders are very brutal]].<br /> <br /> ==Bible, homosexuality, and sound health practices==<br /> <br /> Given the many diseases associated with homosexuality, the [[Bible]] prohibition against homosexuality is arguably one of the many examples where the [http://creationwiki.org/Bible_scientific_foreknowledge Bible exhibited knowledge that was ahead of its time].<br /> <br /> == Untruthful homosexual activists' ideology cost lives ==<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Homosexual activists' ideology and loss of life]] <br /> <br /> The [[Family Research Council]] offered the following glimpse of how untruthful homosexual ideology resulted in the loss of human life:<br /> {{cquote|In 1995, long after the deadly effects of [[AIDS]] and other [[STD]]s became widely known, homosexual author Urvashi Vaid expressed one of the goals of her fellow activists: "We have an agenda to create a society in which homosexuality is regarded as healthy, natural, and normal. To me that is the most important agenda item." Debilitating illness, chronic [[disease]], [[Psychology|psychological]] problems, and early death suffered by homosexuals is the legacy of this tragically misguided activism, which puts the furthering of an "agenda" above saving the lives of those whose interests they purport to represent.<ref>http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=Is01B1</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ''See also:'' [[Mental Health and Homosexuality]]<br /> <br /> In January 2012, [[Vox Day]] reported that two male teenagers who had made videos for the [[teenage homosexuality]] anti-[[suicide]] project the [[It Gets Better Project]] died by suicide.<br /> <ref>http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/01/it-really-doesnt-get-better.html</ref> Vox Day also indicated that it doesn't get better and that homosexuality is a deviant lifestyle that homosexual propagandists promote (see: [[Homosexuality and choice]] and [[Ex-homosexuals]]).<ref>http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/01/it-really-doesnt-get-better.html</ref><br /> <br /> == Christian apologist Matt Slick on the harmfulness of homosexuality to society ==<br /> <br /> The [[Christian apologetics|Christian apologist]] Matt Slick who owns the popular website Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) declared:<br /> {{cquote|Saying that homosexual behavior harms no one is not true. The very lifestyle of homosexuality is highly promiscuous and brimming with disease, although pro-homosexuals will try and separate the behavior from related illnesses in their attempt to demonstrate that homosexual behavior doesn't harm anyone. But the evidence doesn't support that notion.<ref>[http://carm.org/homosexual-gay-sex-harms-no-one Homosexual activity harms no one by Matt Slick]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> ==See also==<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality Research]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality Statistics]]<br /> *[[Causes of Homosexuality]]<br /> *[[Homosexuality and genetic mutations]]<br /> *[[Gay bathhouses]]<br /> <br /> == External links ==<br /> <br /> *[https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/homosexuals-face-greater-health-risks-than-heterosexuals-study Homosexuals face greater health risks than heterosexuals: study]<br /> *[https://onenewsnow.com/science-tech/2016/07/02/study-higher-health-risks-for-homosexuals Study: Higher health risks for homosexuals]<br /> *[https://www.virtueonline.org/negative-health-effects-homosexuality The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality]<br /> *[http://www.healthhazardsofhomosexuality.info/ The Health Hazards of Homosexuality]<br /> *[http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/health-risks-of-the-homosexual-lifestyle/ Health risks of the homosexual lifestyle]<br /> *[https://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48542 Homosexuality: A public health disaster]<br /> *[http://reasontostand.org/archives/2011/04/15/health-risks-of-the-homosexual-lifestyle Health Risks of the Homosexual Lifestyle]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> {{reflist|2}}<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Category:Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category:Diseases]]<br /> [[Category:Mental Health]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_penile_cancer&diff=1665588 Homosexuality and penile cancer 2020-07-06T16:15:29Z

<p>Wikignome72: /* See also */</p> <hr /> <div>[[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and health]]<br /> *[[Atheism and penile cancer]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> <br /> [[Category: Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category: Health]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_penile_cancer&diff=1665586 Homosexuality and penile cancer 2020-07-06T16:15:04Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> <br /> == See also ==<br /> <br /> *[[Homosexuality and health]]<br /> *[[Atheism and penile cancer]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> <br /> [[Category: Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category: Health]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_penile_cancer&diff=1665583 Homosexuality and penile cancer 2020-07-06T16:14:13Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> <br /> [[Category: Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category: Health]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]</div>

Wikignome72 https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_penile_cancer&diff=1665582 Homosexuality and penile cancer 2020-07-06T16:13:02Z

<p>Wikignome72: </p> <hr /> <div>[[AIDS]] is a risk factor for penile cancer.<ref>[https://www.cancer.org/cancer/penile-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html Risk Factors for Penile Cancer]</ref><br /> <br /> AIDS is more common among men who have sex with men (MSM).<br /> <br /> [[AIDS]]/[[HIV]] is more common among men who have sex with men.<br /> <br /> In 2017, the [[Centers for Disease Control]] reported:<br /> {{Cquote|Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2017, adult and adolescent gay and bisexual menb made up 70% (27,000) of the 38,739 new HIV diagnosesc in the United States (US) and dependent areas.d Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before.<ref>[https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html HIV and Gay and Bisexual Men]</ref>}}<br /> ==References==<br /> <references/><br /> <br /> [[Category: Homosexuality]]<br /> [[Category: Health]]<br /> [[Category: Cancer]]</div>

Wikignome72