Talk:Jeremy Bentham

2010-02-08T12:58:54Z

Twitcher: Created page with '== Auto-icon == I fail to see how my statement that Bentham's body is in a box at UCL is 'unsourced', so I've put it back in. If I must wander down there myself between lecture...'

Jeremy Bentham

2010-02-08T12:58:01Z

Twitcher:

'''Jeremy Bentham''' (1748-1832) was an English [[philosopher]] who popularized the concept of [[utilitarianism]]<ref>http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/info/jb.htm</ref>. Utilitarianism is a moral philosophy which states that individual actors (or indeed government) should do whatever maximizes overall "utility" (pleasure minus pain).<ref name=appraisal>Bentham started from the following premise: "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do." [http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unification/Books/Euth/Euth06-04.htm Appraisal of Traditional Theories of Ethics from the Viewpoint of the Unification Theory of Ethics]</ref>
If killing one innocent man saves ten other lives, then utilitarianism would favor it. Under utilitarianism there is no Christian morality, and it is replaced by comparing benefits versus costs.

Bentham influenced socialist reformer [[Robert Owen]], who agreed with Bentham's idea of "the greatest happiness of the greatest number."<ref name=appraisal /> He was also a major influence on the [[liberal]] philosopher and [[atheist]] [[John Stuart Mill]], and a friend of his father, [[James Mill]].

Bentham's preserved body is on public display at University College London (UCL), topped by a wax head<ref>http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/site_images/auto_il.gif</ref>.

===References===
<references />

{{DEFAULTSORT:Bentham, Jeremy}}
[[Category:Philosophers]]
[[Category:Enlightenment]]

Ian McKellen

2010-02-07T15:17:48Z

Twitcher:

'''Sir Ian McKellen''' (born 1939) is a [[British]] actor
who was knighted in 1991 for outstanding contributions to theater.
He has gained international recognition for playing [[Gandalf]] in [[The Lord of the Rings film trilogy|''The Lord of the Rings'' series of films]]. He is currently playing in a production of Samuel Beckett's Waiting for Godot in London's West End.

== Homosexuality ==

McKellen publically came out as a homosexual at the relatively late age of 49. He has been irrationally critical of so-called homophobic legislation in the UK, which stopped homosexuality from being preached in [[public schools]] (later disgracefully repealed).

== Extreme opinions ==

McKellen is an [[atheist]] and opposes [[capital punishment]].

{{DEFAULTSORT:McKellen, Ian}}
[[Category: Actors]]
[[Category:Liberal Activists]]

2010-01-13T19:13:13Z

Twitcher: Created page with '== Title change suggestion == Sorry if this is the wrong place to talk about it, I'm quite new here. In English legal tradition, cases are names (x) v (y), and not (x) v. (y); ...'

Talk:Heavy metal music

2010-01-13T14:37:43Z

Twitcher: /* Too much information. */

== Christianity? ==
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)

==Link==
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)

::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)

::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Spirituality and etiquette==

Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%.

Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==State of the Article==
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)

First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.

::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".

::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)

I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)

Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more".

::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Question==
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Stop==
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref>

:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)

There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references.

:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.

We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)

::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)

==Suicide==

:suicide is the only way out

Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)

::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)

::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)

==Links==
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm

== Christian metal is not evil ==

It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)

::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)

:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)

:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)

::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)

== Article poses as unbiased. ==

I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]

:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)

:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]

:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)

::::Dang! Since when is a particular type of music evil. It's the people behind the music and what they are promoting that can be evil...... not the music itself. [[User:Saksjn|Saksjn]] 21:54, 2 November 2009 (EST)

== We need more ==

There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

== Definite need of a revamp ==
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.

http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music

I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.

-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them.

Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete.

The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Incorrect. GnR is hardrock, you can't argue this/ If you think GnR is typical metal then you're hopelessly ignorant of what most metal sounds like. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 19:43, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

== Request intervention ==

Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:::: Jose is usually a girl's name. My bad. You can take yourself off the cross now. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:58, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

I have yet to meet a single women in my life that went by "Jose". Jose is typically a man's name, especially with Latinos. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

Jose83 is a parodist. Check his block log. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:09, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Ok, wasn't this solved, like, months ago? The description of "anti-Christian" does not belong in the first sentence of the article; it is not a fact, will never be a fact, and your website reference has no authority. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:39, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

== Not enough information ==

This article fails even to mention doom metal, death metal, melodic death metal, or any modern trends in metal, despite having sections devoted to the 1980s and 1990s, decades notable for far more musical innovation than just groove or black metal. I've stuck some bands in as examples and edit in some more in due course - as it stands I've missed out a lot of stuff. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 15:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)

I've added the basis of some more extensive descriptions. I've filled in a couple, and will do more, but I am no expert on glam, thrash, stoner, speed and new wave of british heavy metal. Any help would be welcomed. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 15:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)

== Too much information. ==

We should not strive to be a compendium of pop-culture cruft. This article is already spinning out of control with its detailed description of marginally talented musical figures, and "Twitcher's" latest round of fanboy edits are hardly in the spirit of serious scholarship. The article should, in a brief and concise way, describe the genre and discuss some of the controversies attached to it from a Christian/conservative POV. No need for a detailed analysis of obscure bands. [[User:AlexWD|AlexWD]] 08:54, 13 January 2010 (EST)

So where's the consistency in naming a few sub-genres and pretending the others don't exist? That doesn't exactly strike me as particularly scholarly. As for 'marginally talented musical figures', please don't be so puerile. Your subjective views on the genre are utterly irrelevant. I think great swathes of what I've tried to document are fairly terrible, but you know what, since this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, the least that can be done is offer some examples of bands that characterise the particular sounds. I'm not sure where the 'fanboy' ad hominem is coming from either - am I a fanboy because I actually know something about the subject? [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 09:37, 13 January 2010 (EST)

Doctor Who

2010-01-13T13:46:51Z

Twitcher: Lack of reference - explanation on talk page.

'''''Doctor Who''''' is a [[British Broadcasting Corporation|BBC]] science fiction television programme originally created in 1963. It centres around a character named The Doctor, who travels around the universe in a [[time machine]] called the TARDIS ("Time and Relative Dimensions in Space"), which resembles a 1950s British Police phone box, but is considerably larger on the inside than it is on the outside.

The programme ran for twenty-six seasons between 1963 and 1989, at which point it was canceled indefinitely. Various forms of the series continued after the cancellation, with popular series of novels published by Target and then BBC Books, along with audio serials and re-releases of past episodes on VHS and DVD. Since 2005, a "new series" has been produced by BBC Wales.

The Doctor has the ability to regenerate his body when mortally weakened, a useful plot device that has allowed the role to be played on TV by ten different actors so far.

==The Doctors==
===[[William Hartnell]] (1963-66)===
The first actor to play the Doctor portrayed him as a cantankerous old man. Initially a somewhat dark character, he became more grandfatherly in later episodes. Hartnell's era introduced the most well-known of the Doctor's foes, the [[Dalek]]s.

===[[Patrick Troughton]] (1966-1969)===
Troughton's Doctor was an impish figure, whose gimmicks included playing the recorder. In this period, much of which is lost, the program felt the influence of [[Star Trek]] somewhat.

===[[Jon Pertwee]] (1970-1974)===
The third Doctor was Earth-bound for much of his tenure, a move that was partly motivated by budgeting constraints in production. In the stories themselves, this was explained by the Doctor's race - the Time Lords - imposing an exile upon him due to alleged crimes prosecuted in ''The War Games''. During this time, the United Nations Intelligence Taskforce ("UNIT") was a key element of plots - the Doctor was officially UNIT's scientific advisor, but he frequently attempts to break free of the Time Lords' imposition of exile.

===[[Tom Baker]] (1974-1981)===
Arguably the most well-known Doctor, Baker, with his seven-foot long scarf and fondness for jelly babies played the role for longer than any other actor. Considered to be an "eccentric" character, he was capable both of representing human attributes and being aloof and of being detached from others around him.

===[[Peter Davison]] (1981-1984)===
The fifth Doctor became something of a vulnerable character, which was a conscious decision by the production team (led by John Nathan-Turner) to remove the aura of invincibility that they had felt was becoming part of the Doctor's characterisation with Tom Baker. Shown to be a keen cricket fan, the Doctor was arguably more human than any of his predecessors and often relied more on his companions to assist throughout his missions.

===[[Colin Baker]] (1984-1986)===
The sixth Doctor was premised around being the antithesis of his predecessor, with his garish and colour-mismatched costume reflecting the vast contrast with the mild-mannered fifth Doctor. In terms of characterisation, the Doctor became something of an unstable character, often violently responding to people and events around him.

===[[Sylvester McCoy]] (1987-1989)===
After the departure of Colin Baker, McCoy's depiction of the Doctor saw the series shift mood considerably. Early stories within the era depicted a somewhat comic and light-hearted Doctor, but over time the Doctor's character became steadily darker - a development that has been commonly described as making the Doctor a manipulating, scheming character who influenced events like a chess game.

===[[Paul McGann]] (1996)===
McGann played the role for a television movie, with the creation of a new series by US producers dependent on the success of the movie. This was never made. The Doctor himself was perhaps more human than any other, with the revelation that he was "half-human" on his mother's side and displaying far greater emotional response than in the past.

===[[Christopher Eccleston]] (2005)===
The first Doctor in the "new series" created by [[Russell T. Davies]], Eccleston's portrayal saw much of the eccentricity of the past integrated into the ninth regeneration of the Doctor. An indefinite amount of time has elapsed since he was last seen on television screens, and it is clear that the events of the Time War have scarred him: he is the last of the Time Lord race. His character reflected a manic unpredictability that saw him capable of both compassion and apathy while maintaining a love-hate relationship with humans.

===[[David Tennant]] (2006-2010)===
The current actor playing the Doctor was also well-known beforehand ([[Casanova]], [[Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire]]). His portrayal is more humorous and vivacious than Eccleston's.

===[[Matt Smith]] (2010-)===
Matt Smith has been confirmed to take Tennants place in series 5 of Doctor Who. He is the youngest actor to play the role and is expected to bring radical changes with him.

==Political and Social Themes==
Several stories in the series have been subtly or overtly political in their themes. For instance, ''The Green Death'' (1973) emphasized the dangers of [[pollution]] and big business; while the following year's ''Invasion of the Dinosaurs'' featured a contrasting menace -- pro-environment extremists. Other stories have taken their themes from current news stories of the time, such as the [[United Kingdom]]'s entry into the [[European Union|Common Market]]. Many of these pro-liberal stories came during the period where the show was produced by Barry Letts, whose heavily liberal and [[environmentalist]] views shaped a lot of stories in the early 1970s. Apart from this period, the original series generally did not have a particularly heavily political leaning (perhaps reflecting the less liberal culture in the BBC in those times), and in fact ''The Sun Makers'' (1977) was a pro-Conservative story that told of the dangers of heavy [[taxation|taxes]] and overly complex governments.

In a recent episode, the Daleks - Doctor Who's most dangerous enemy, a race of creatures who are physically shriveled and weak but contained within an armored tank-like body - take over Manhattan. They ruthlessly exploit workers engaged in construction and repair on the Empire State Building. This was reported in the British newspaper [[The Independent]] as a metaphor for the rampant abuse of capitalism. The lead writer of Dr. Who, [[Russell T Davies]] is known for aggressively promoting the [[gay agenda]] in his prior show [[Queer as Folk]] and continuing to promote it in Doctor Who (despite the fact that the show is supposed to be geared towards a young audience), with many openly gay or bisexual (or as the show jokes "Omnisexual" due to relations with aliens) characters, including the lead of the spin-off [[Torchwood]], [[Captain Jack Harkness]]. Davies' attitude has been contrasted with that of [[John Nathan-Turner]], the final producer of the original series who, while being publicly known as a homosexual, never allowed this to overtly influence the stories written while he produced the show.

==Transmission==
Around the world, Doctor Who can be seen on:
*[[BBC]] One or BBC Three in the UK
*[[Canadian_Broadcasting_Corporation|CBC Television]] in Canada
*[[SciFi Channel]] in the US, or via Netflix
*[[Australian Broadcasting Corporation|ABC]] in Australia

Other countries to receive Doctor Who include the Netherlands, France, Denmark and Russia.

[[Category:Television Shows]]

Talk:Doctor Who

2010-01-13T13:45:43Z

Twitcher:

== Summaries of the Doctors ==

The summaries of each Doctor are opinionated and do not have any basis on which to support the claims, even if in practical terms they may be true. I'm editing them. [[User:Karalius Nyder|Karalius Nyder]] 02:34, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

== Guardian claim ==

"Conservative writers in The Guardian have used this as supposed evidence of the BBC pumping out "relentless socialist propaganda", although others argue that this assumes an inherently Marxist perspective."

I find this a bit hard to believe - the Guardian is very much left-leaning magazine, and I think that if they'd accuse the Beeb of promoting a socialist agenda, it's unlikely they'd portray this as a bad thing (in their view, anyway). Additionally, this claim is unreferenced, and after half an hour of searching I can see no mention of this anywhere. I'm removing this sentence because I'm not entirely sure that what it claims is true. Of course, if the article can be found, I have no objection to this being reverted. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 08:45, 13 January 2010 (EST)

Heavy metal music

2010-01-13T09:37:27Z

Twitcher: Undo revision 744242 by AlexWD (Talk) (Ditto.)

'''Heavy metal''' is a musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]].

The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]].

By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.

Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.

==1970s==
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of [[Satanism|Satanic]] imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films.

Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured [[boa]] constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.

==1980s==
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]]. The mid to late 1980s also saw the creation and evolution of death metal, spearheaded by early bands such as [[Death]] (their early demos, when they were known as [[Mantas]], were highly influential), [[Possessed]], [[Morbid Angel]] and many others. Many early death metal bands credited [[Slayer]] as an influence, citing the relentless riffs, speed and dark lyrics which made them so popular.

==1990s==
The advent of Grunge in the early 90s is seen as the end of glam metal dominance. Nirvana's 'Nevermind' caused widespread public interest in alternative forms of music. [[Groove Metal]] became popular with Pantera's 'Cowboys from Hell' and Sepultura's 'Chaos AD'. The normally marginalized sub-genres of metal, that began forming in the early to mid 80s, soon enjoyed much wider exposure. [[Black Metal]], especially in the Scandinavian countries, began to see a huge rise in popularity<ref>fact</ref>. [[Marduk]], [[Mayhem]], and [[Burzum]] were see at the forefront of the early black metal scene, and continued to see popularity due to the controversies that surrounded the bands, such as Marduk's fascination with the Third Reich and anti-christian lyrical content; the murder of Mayhem's lead guitarist Euronymous by Burzum's Varg Vikernes, as well as the lyrical content and album themes of everything post 'Deathcrush'. Death metal rapidly evolved and diversified into many different sub-genres: [[Suffocation]] are often credited with the more mid-tempo sub-genre of brutal death, while pioneers [[Atheist]] and [[Cynic]] brought strong jazz, jazz fusion and progressive elements to the genre. The Swedish death metal scene, which was originally known for a distinctive 'buzzsaw' guitar sound and strong hardcore punk influences, soon took the genre in a different direction. In particular, the Gothenburg scene produced extemely popular melodic death metal bands such as [[At the Gates]], [[In Flames]] and [[Dark Tranquillity]]. Other sub-genres of death metal include technical death metal ([[Necrophagist]], [[Origin]]), blackened death metal ([[Akercocke]]), death-doom metal (which was pioneered in the early 1990s by acts such as [[Autopsy]]), and deathcore, which mixes elements of metalcore into death metal (early [[Job for a Cowboy]], [[Whitechapel]], [[Despised Icon]]).

==Criticism==

Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations.

A musicologist wrote:

:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref>

==Etymology==
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref>

== Sub-genres ==

Metal has diversified enormously since the early days of Black Sabbath. Sub-genres include:

'''Doom metal'''

Inspired by [[Black Sabbath]], the genre's main characteristic is that of almost exclusive use of low tempos in order to create a crushing and dark atmosphere. Arguably, Black Sabbath's song Black Sabbath was the first song of this genre, with extensive use of a tritone in its main riff, and dark, slow progression.

'''New wave of British heavy metal (NWOBHM)'''

'''Glam metal'''

'''Speed metal'''

'''Thrash metal'''

'''Power metal'''

'''Death metal'''

Building on the aggression and speed of thrash, death metal is incredibly diverse. The music will typically use many chromatic riffs, naturally distorted vocals (known as death growls, but high shrieking and clean singing are not unknown), extensive double bass drumming and blast beats, and extremely high tempos. However, mid and low tempos are also very prevalent, with bands such as [[Suffocation]] and [[Cryptopsy]] using this extensively as a tool to contrast the high tempos which make up much of their songs.

'''Black metal'''

'''Stoner metal'''

'''Metalcore'''

'''Deathcore'''

Deathcore takes death metal, often with elements such as pedal riffs taken from melodic death, and adds to them the hardcore vocals and one-note, palm-muted breakdowns of metalcore. Deathcore has known a period of high popularity, but is often rejected from many underground circles for using elements of metalcore, which is perceived as being less extreme and more commercial than most metal.

'''Djent '''

A relatively recent term for bands making heavy use of low tunings (usually played on 7 or 8 stringed guitars) with extensive use of polymetrics. [[Meshuggah]] were the first band to make use of these musical devices extensively; in the last two years, bands such as [[TesseracT]], [[Bulb]], [[Periphery]] and [[Animals as Leaders]] taken Meshuggah's template and expanded on it; one common Djent trait is to make extensive use of atmospheric keyboards, something Meshuggah has never done.

==References==
<references/>

==See Also==
[[Black Metal]]

[[Category:Rock & Roll]]

Heavy metal music

2010-01-13T09:36:38Z

Twitcher: Undo revision 744243 by AlexWD (Talk) (illogical revert on the basis that AlexWD had never heard of these rather central bands.)

'''Heavy metal''' is a musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]].

The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]].

By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.

Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.

==1970s==
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of [[Satanism|Satanic]] imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films.

Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured [[boa]] constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.

==1980s==
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].

==1990s==
The advent of Grunge in the early 90s is seen as the end of glam metal dominance. Nirvana's 'Nevermind' caused widespread public interest in alternative forms of music. [[Groove Metal]] became popular with Pantera's 'Cowboys from Hell' and Sepultura's 'Chaos AD'. The normally marginalized sub-genres of metal, that began forming in the early to mid 80s, soon enjoyed much wider exposure. [[Black Metal]], especially in the Scandinavian countries, began to see a huge rise in popularity<ref>fact</ref>. [[Marduk]], [[Mayhem]], and [[Burzum]] were see at the forefront of the early black metal scene, and continued to see popularity due to the controversies that surrounded the bands, such as Marduk's fascination with the Third Reich and anti-christian lyrical content; the murder of Mayhem's lead guitarist Euronymous by Burzum's Varg Vikernes, as well as the lyrical content and album themes of everything post 'Deathcrush'.

==Criticism==

Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations.

A musicologist wrote:

:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref>

==Etymology==
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref>

== Sub-genres ==

Metal has diversified enormously since the early days of Black Sabbath. Sub-genres include:

'''Doom metal'''

Inspired by [[Black Sabbath]], the genre's main characteristic is that of almost exclusive use of low tempos in order to create a crushing and dark atmosphere. Arguably, Black Sabbath's song Black Sabbath was the first song of this genre, with extensive use of a tritone in its main riff, and dark, slow progression.

'''New wave of British heavy metal (NWOBHM)'''

'''Glam metal'''

'''Speed metal'''

'''Thrash metal'''

'''Power metal'''

'''Death metal'''

Building on the aggression and speed of thrash, death metal is incredibly diverse. The music will typically use many chromatic riffs, naturally distorted vocals (known as death growls, but high shrieking and clean singing are not unknown), extensive double bass drumming and blast beats, and extremely high tempos. However, mid and low tempos are also very prevalent, with bands such as [[Suffocation]] and [[Cryptopsy]] using this extensively as a tool to contrast the high tempos which make up much of their songs.

'''Black metal'''

'''Stoner metal'''

'''Metalcore'''

'''Deathcore'''

Deathcore takes death metal, often with elements such as pedal riffs taken from melodic death, and adds to them the hardcore vocals and one-note, palm-muted breakdowns of metalcore. Deathcore has known a period of high popularity, but is often rejected from many underground circles for using elements of metalcore, which is perceived as being less extreme and more commercial than most metal.

'''Djent '''

A relatively recent term for bands making heavy use of low tunings (usually played on 7 or 8 stringed guitars) with extensive use of polymetrics. [[Meshuggah]] were the first band to make use of these musical devices extensively; in the last two years, bands such as [[TesseracT]], [[Bulb]], [[Periphery]] and [[Animals as Leaders]] taken Meshuggah's template and expanded on it; one common Djent trait is to make extensive use of atmospheric keyboards, something Meshuggah has never done.

==References==
<references/>

==See Also==
[[Black Metal]]

[[Category:Rock & Roll]]

Talk:Heavy metal music

2010-01-12T20:57:14Z

Twitcher:

== Christianity? ==
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)

==Link==
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)

::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)

::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Spirituality and etiquette==

Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%.

Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==State of the Article==
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)

First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.

::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".

::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)

I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)

Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more".

::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Question==
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Stop==
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref>

:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)

There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references.

:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.

We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)

::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)

==Suicide==

:suicide is the only way out

Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)

::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)

::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)

==Links==
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm

== Christian metal is not evil ==

It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)

::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)

:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)

:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)

::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)

== Article poses as unbiased. ==

I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]

:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)

:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]

:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)

::::Dang! Since when is a particular type of music evil. It's the people behind the music and what they are promoting that can be evil...... not the music itself. [[User:Saksjn|Saksjn]] 21:54, 2 November 2009 (EST)

== We need more ==

There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

== Definite need of a revamp ==
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.

http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music

I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.

-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them.

Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete.

The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Incorrect. GnR is hardrock, you can't argue this/ If you think GnR is typical metal then you're hopelessly ignorant of what most metal sounds like. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 19:43, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

== Request intervention ==

Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:::: Jose is usually a girl's name. My bad. You can take yourself off the cross now. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:58, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

I have yet to meet a single women in my life that went by "Jose". Jose is typically a man's name, especially with Latinos. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

Jose83 is a parodist. Check his block log. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:09, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Ok, wasn't this solved, like, months ago? The description of "anti-Christian" does not belong in the first sentence of the article; it is not a fact, will never be a fact, and your website reference has no authority. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:39, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

== Not enough information ==

This article fails even to mention doom metal, death metal, melodic death metal, or any modern trends in metal, despite having sections devoted to the 1980s and 1990s, decades notable for far more musical innovation than just groove or black metal. I've stuck some bands in as examples and edit in some more in due course - as it stands I've missed out a lot of stuff. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 15:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)

I've added the basis of some more extensive descriptions. I've filled in a couple, and will do more, but I am no expert on glam, thrash, stoner, speed and new wave of british heavy metal. Any help would be welcomed. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 15:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Talk:Heavy metal music

2010-01-12T20:56:36Z

Twitcher:

== Christianity? ==
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)

==Link==
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)

::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)

::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Spirituality and etiquette==

Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%.

Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==State of the Article==
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)

First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.

::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".

::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)

I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)

Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more".

::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Question==
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)

::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)

==Stop==
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref>

:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)

There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references.

:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.

We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)

::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)

==Suicide==

:suicide is the only way out

Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)

::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)

::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)

==Links==
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm

== Christian metal is not evil ==

It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)

::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)

:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)

:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)

::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)

== Article poses as unbiased. ==

I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]

:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)

:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]

:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)

::::Dang! Since when is a particular type of music evil. It's the people behind the music and what they are promoting that can be evil...... not the music itself. [[User:Saksjn|Saksjn]] 21:54, 2 November 2009 (EST)

== We need more ==

There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

== Definite need of a revamp ==
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.

http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music

I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.

-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them.

Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete.

The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:Incorrect. GnR is hardrock, you can't argue this/ If you think GnR is typical metal then you're hopelessly ignorant of what most metal sounds like. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 19:43, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

== Request intervention ==

Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

:::: Jose is usually a girl's name. My bad. You can take yourself off the cross now. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:58, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

I have yet to meet a single women in my life that went by "Jose". Jose is typically a man's name, especially with Latinos. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]

Jose83 is a parodist. Check his block log. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:09, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

Ok, wasn't this solved, like, months ago? The description of "anti-Christian" does not belong in the first sentence of the article; it is not a fact, will never be a fact, and your website reference has no authority. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:39, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

== Not enough information ==

This article fails even to mention doom metal, death metal, melodic death metal, or any modern trends in metal, despite having sections devoted to the 1980s and 1990s, decades notable for far more musical innovation than just groove or black metal. I've stuck some bands in as examples and edit in some more in due course - as it stands I've missed out a lot of stuff. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 15:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)
I've added the basis of some more extensive descriptions. I've filled in a couple, and will do more, but I am no expert on glam, thrash, stoner, speed and new wave of british heavy metal. Any help would be welcomed. [[User:Twitcher|Twitcher]] 15:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)

2010-01-09T16:25:42Z

Twitcher: