Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:38:02Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Josquin's Music */ internal links

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

Josquin's early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, [[melisma|melismatic]] [[counterpoint]] in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northern [[polyphony]] of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of [[Italy]]. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western [[Europe]] and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a [[motet]]. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

[[Image:MissaPangeLingua.jpg|left|thumb|400px| Missa Pange Lingua, composed in the latter part of Josquin's life, is considered to be one of his finest works. The four-part polyphonic setting is in many ways evocative of [[Palestrina]], who was composing some 50 years later]]
===The [[Motet]]s===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The [[Mass|Masses]]===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of [[cantus firmus]], [[parody mass|parody]] and [[paraphrase]] techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of [[melody]] and [[rhythm]] and the clarity of [[harmony]] and texture recall the [[Burgundy|Burgundian]] style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and [[ostinato]] figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de Beata Virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with [[bravura]], and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
[[Image:KyriefromMissadeBeataVirgine.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Kyrie from Missa de Beata Virgine]]
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous [[chanson]]s. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]]. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less [[canon|canonic]], the clear articulation of line and points of [[imitation]] achieved by a carefully balanced hierarchy of [[cadence]]s. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chansons of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a [[lament]] on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

* Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735
* Some extract of Josquin's music (bottom of page): http://www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/josquin.html

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:31:23Z

SeanTheSheep:

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

Josquin's early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

[[Image:MissaPangeLingua.jpg|left|thumb|400px| Missa Pange Lingua, composed in the latter part of Josquin's life, is considered to be one of his finest works. The four-part polyphonic setting is in many ways evocative of [[Palestrina]], who was composing some 50 years later]]
===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de Beata Virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
[[Image:KyriefromMissadeBeataVirgine.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Kyrie from Missa de Beata Virgine]]
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

* Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735
* Some extract of Josquin's music (bottom of page): http://www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/josquin.html

File:KyriefromMissadeBeataVirgine.jpg

2007-05-16T22:28:22Z

SeanTheSheep: Opening Movement of one of Josquin's Masses

Opening Movement of one of Josquin's Masses

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:25:23Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Biography */

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

Josquin's early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

[[Image:MissaPangeLingua.jpg|left|thumb|400px| Missa Pange Lingua, composed in the latter part of Josquin's life, is considered to be one of his finest works. The four-part polyphonic setting is in many ways evocative of [[Palestrina]], who was composing some 50 years later]]
===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

* Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735
* Some extract of Josquin's music (bottom of page): http://www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/josquin.html

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:23:30Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Secular Music */

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

[[Image:MissaPangeLingua.jpg|left|thumb|400px| Missa Pange Lingua, composed in the latter part of Josquin's life, is considered to be one of his finest works. The four-part polyphonic setting is in many ways evocative of [[Palestrina]], who was composing some 50 years later]]
===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

* Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735
* Some extract of Josquin's music (bottom of page): http://www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/josquin.html

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:22:00Z

SeanTheSheep: added pic

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

[[Image:MissaPangeLingua.jpg|left|thumb|400px| Missa Pange Lingua, composed in the latter part of Josquin's life, is considered to be one of his finest works. The four-part polyphonic setting is in many ways evocative of [[Palestrina]], who was composing some 50 years later]]
===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes htis to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

* Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735
* Some extract of Josquin's music (bottom of page): http://www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/josquin.html

File:MissaPangeLingua.jpg

2007-05-16T22:11:14Z

SeanTheSheep: Album Cover of Josquin's Greatest Mass

Album Cover of Josquin's Greatest Mass

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:02:57Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Links */

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the high [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes htis to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

* Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735
* Some extract of Josquin's music (bottom of page): http://www.essentialsofmusic.com/composer/josquin.html

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T22:00:13Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Secular Music */

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the high [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes htis to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

==Links==

Grove Dictionary of Music: http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/cla/learning/grove.html?record=4735

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T21:57:57Z

SeanTheSheep: added pic

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the high [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==
[[Image:Josquin.JPG|thumb|right|250px|1611 woodcut of Josquin. This is generally thought to have been copied from an original oil painting, which is now lost.]]

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes htis to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

Links:

Grove Dictionary of Music: http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/grove.html

File:Josquin.JPG

2007-05-16T21:53:52Z

SeanTheSheep: 1611 Woodcut of Josquin Desprez

1611 Woodcut of Josquin Desprez

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T21:51:51Z

SeanTheSheep: /* The Masses */

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the high [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. ''Fortuna desperata'', on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato figures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes htis to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

Links:

Grove Dictionary of Music: http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/grove.html

Josquin Desprez

2007-05-16T21:50:56Z

SeanTheSheep: The most important composer of the early renaissance

Josquin Desprez (c 1440-1521) is considered to be one of the greatest composers of the high [[Renaissance]]. His works demonstrate a wide range of invention and profound expression.

==Biography==

His early life is something of a mystery; it is conjectured that he was a native of the Vermandois region of [[Picardy]], but it is certain that he was a singer at [[Milan]] Cathedral in 1459, remaining there until December 1472. By July 1474 he was one of the 'cantori di capella' in the chapel of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Between 1476 and 1504 he passed into the service of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, whom he probably accompanied in [[Rome]] in 1484. His name first appears among the papal chapel choir in 1486 and recurs sporadically; he had left the choir by 1501. In this Italian period Josquin reached artistic maturity.

Josquin then went to [[France]], probably serving in [[Louis XII]]'s court. Although he may have had connections with the Ferrara court (through the Sforzas) in the 1480s and 1490s, no formal relationship with the court is known before 1503 when, for a year, he was maestro di cappella there and the highest-paid singer in the chapel's history. There he probably wrote primarily masses and motets. An outbreak of plague in 1503 forced the court to leave Ferrara (Josquin's place was taken by [[Obrecht]], who fell victim in 1505). He was in the north again, at Notre Dame at Condé, in 1504; he may have been connected with Margaret of Austria's court, 1508-11. He died in 1521. Several portraits survive, one of which is attributed to [[Leonardo da Vinci]].

==Josquin's Music==

Josquin's first period (up to 1485) is characterized by abstract, melismatic counterpoint in the manner of [[Ockeghem]]. His middle period (to 1505) saw the development and perfection of the technique of pervasive imitation based on word-generated motifs. This style has been seen as a synthesis of two traditions: the northem polyphony of [[Dufay]], [[Busnois]] and [[Ockeghem]], and the more chordal, harmonically orientated practice of Italy. In the final period the relationship between word and note becomes even closer and there is increasing emphasis on declamation and rhetorical expression within a style of the utmost economy.

Josquin's works gradually became known throughout western Europe and were regarded as models by many composers and theorists. [[Petrucci]]'s three books of his masses (1502-14) reflect contemporary esteem, as does [[Attaingnant]]'s collection of his chansons (1550). Several laments were written on his death (including [[Gombert]]'s elegy ''Musae Jovis''), and as late as 1554 [[Jacquet of Mantua]] paid him tribute in a motet. He was praised by 16th-century literary figures (including [[Castiglione]] and [[Rabelais]]) and was [[Martin Luther]]'s favourite composer.

===The Motets===
His many motets span all three periods. One of the earliest, the four-part ''Victimae paschali laudes'' (1502), exemplifies his early style, with its dense texture, lack of imitation, and rudimentary treatment of dissonance. Greater maturity is shown in ''Planxit autem David'', in which homophonic and freely imitative passages alternate, and in ''Absalon, fili mi'', with its flexible combination of textures. His later motets, such as ''In principio erat verbum'', combine motivic intensity and melodic succinctness with formal clarity; they are either freely composed, four-part settings of biblical texts, or large-scale [[cantus firmus]] pieces.

===The Masses===
Josquin's 18 complete masses combine elements of cantus firmus, parody and paraphrase techniques. One of the earliest, ''L'ami Baudichon'', is a cantus firmus mass on a simple dance formula; the simplicity of melody and rhythm and the clarity of harmony and texture recall the Burgundian style of the 1450s and 1460s. Fortuna desperata, on the other hand, is an early example of parody. Canonic writing and ostinato hgures are features. His last great masses, notably the ''Missa de beata virgine'' and the ''Missa 'Pange lingua' '' are works in which every resource is deployed with bravura, and include some innovatory chordal sections.

===Secular Music===
Josquin's secular music comprises three settings of Italian texts and numerous chansons. One of the earliest, ''Cela sans plus'', typifies his observance of the formes fixes and the influences of the Burgundian style of Busnois and Ockeghem. Later works, such as'' Mille regretz'', are less canonic, the clear articulation of line and points of imitation achieved by a carefull balanced hierarchy of cadences. Some, like ''Si j'ay perdu mon ami'', look forward to the popular 'Parisian' chanson of [[Jannequin]]. One of Josquin's most famous pieces was a lament on the death of his friend and mentor, Johannes Ockeghem: ''Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem''. In this remarkable piece, Josquin deliberately composes the first verse in an archaic style, and then in the second verse, changes htis to an innovative setting in which he calls upon all his contemporaries to mourn for the loss of their repected father figure.

Links:

Grove Dictionary of Music: http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/grove.html

Talk:Polyhedron

2007-05-15T15:46:47Z

SeanTheSheep:

Maybe we'd like something on the duality of the regular polyhedra, and something on why there are only five? I'm not an algebraist by training, but I could probably take a shot at it. [[User:Brainslug|Brainslug]] 11:36, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Yeah go for it. I was thinking about extending these into the semiregular polyhedra and demiregular to match the stuff I did on tessellations. There are also the truncations and stellations. There is a huge article here, and there is a load of stuff which can be imported. I have to go now, but I'll look in later --[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 11:39, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

You don't need complex math:
You need at least 3 polygons to meet at a vertex.

So,
if we use triangles, we could have 3, 4 or 5 (6 or more is more than 180 degrees)
if we use squares, we could have 3 (4 or more is more than 180 degrees)
if we use pentagons, we could have 3 (4 or more is more than 180 degrees)

if we have higher order, they won't fit.

So, all you have to show is that under these constraints there are only these 5.

--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 11:46, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Polyhedron

2007-05-15T15:39:01Z

SeanTheSheep:

Polyhedron

2007-05-15T15:36:37Z

SeanTheSheep:

A '''polyhedron''' is a three dimensional shape which is bounded by [[polygon]]s.

[[Image:PlatonicSolids.jpg|right|600px|thumb|The five regular convex polyhedra, also known as the Platonic Solids]]

A regular polyhedron is a polyhedron all of whose faces are identical regular polygons, and all of whose vertices have the same number of faces around each vertex. There are only five regular convex polyhedrons—polyhedrons in which the all of the faces are on the outside of the polyhedron.<ref>As opposed to four "star polyhedra" in which the "faces" of the polyhedron slice into the polyhedron</ref>. They are:

*The tetrahedron ("tetra-" meaning "four")
*The cube or hexahedron ("hexa-" meaning "six")
*The octahedron ("octa-" meaning "eight")
*The dodecahedron ("dodeca-" meaning "twelve")
*The icosahedron ("icosa-" meaning "twenty")

Role-playing games often use dice in the shape of octohedra, dodecahedra, and icosahedra, as well as traditional cubical dice.

Because the dodecahedron has twelve sides, decorative calendars are sometimes made in the shape of a dodecahedron, with one month printed on each face.

==Notes==

For a full description of polyhedra see: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Polyhedron.html

<references/>

[[Category:Geometry]]

Polyhedron

2007-05-15T15:33:39Z

SeanTheSheep:

File:PlatonicSolids.jpg

2007-05-15T15:30:24Z

SeanTheSheep: The Five Platonic Solids

The Five Platonic Solids

Polyhedron

2007-05-15T15:26:22Z

SeanTheSheep: spelling

A '''polyhedron''' is a three dimensional shape which is bounded by [[polygon]]s.

A regular polyhedron is a polyhedron all of whose faces are identical regular polygons, and all of whose vertices have the same number of faces around each vertex. There are only five regular convex polyhedrons—polyhedrons in which the all of the faces are on the outside of the polyhedron.<ref>As opposed to four "star polyhedra" in which the "faces" of the polyhedron slice into the polyhedron</ref>. They are:

*The tetrahedron ("tetra-" meaning "four")
*The cube or hexahedron ("hexa-" meaning "six")
*The octahedron ("octa-" meaning "eight")
*The dodecahedron ("dodeca-" meaning "twelve")
*The icosahedron ("icosa-" meaning "twenty")

Role-playing games often use dice in the shape of octohedra, dodecahedra, and icosahedra, as well as traditional cubical dice.

Because the dodecahedron has twelve sides, decorative calendars are sometimes made in the shape of a dodecahedron, with one month printed on each face.

==Notes==
<references/>

[[Category:Geometry]]

Polyhedron

2007-05-15T15:24:48Z

SeanTheSheep:

A '''polyhedron''' is a three dimensional shape which is bounded by [[polygon]]s.

A regular polyhedron is a polyhedron all of whose faces are identical regular polygons, and all of whose vertices have the same number of faces around each vertex. There are only five regular convex polyhedrons—polyhedrons in which the all of the faces are on the outside of the polyhedron.<ref>As opposed to four "star polyhedra" in which the "faces" of the polyhedron slice into the polyhedron</ref>. They are:

*The tetrahedron ("tetra-" meaning "four")
*The cube or hexahedron ("hexa-" meaning "six")
*The octohedron ("octo-" meaning "eight")
*The dodecahedron ("dodeca-" meaning "twelve")
*The icosahedron ("icosa-" meaning "twenty")

Role-playing games often use dice in the shape of octohedra, dodecahedra, and icosahedra, as well as traditional cubical dice.

Because the dodecahedron has twelve sides, decorative calendars are sometimes made in the shape of a dodecahedron, with one month printed on each face.

==Notes==
<references/>

[[Category:Geometry]]

User talk:Dpbsmith

2007-05-15T15:22:16Z

SeanTheSheep: Moving Averages?

Older material:
*[[User_talk:Dpbsmith/archive1]]

----
I need your help. Can you come to [[Category talk:Articles with unsourced statements]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:23, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

==Timing==

Exactly the edit I was making. [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:AFD_False_Jesii&diff=123930&oldid=123929] Thanks for helping to tidy up. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 21:46, 23 April 2007 (EDT)

==Church of Jesus_Christ of Latter-day Saints==
Thanks for adding the categories back.[[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints&curid=2606&diff=124556&oldid=124447]] I agree, those categories are not redundant. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 11:54, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

== Tea and Sympathy? ==

I've noticed that you are very good at making clear points without offending anyone, so I am requesting that you at least check out [[Square root]] and [[Scientific Revolution]], especially the latter, and tell me what you think [my course of action should be] sometime, on their talk pages or mine. Thanks in advance, [[User:Human|Human]] 15:55, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:Hey, thanks for the help and participation. I think SqR is close to being a good file now. It's so much better to have more voices involved, I think. Sci Rev, however... man. I should just stay away from these moated files. Rschlafly (Roger?) told me that the creationist textbook I quoted (fairly, too) was biased and full of myths. Well, I knew that, but not in the way Rschlaughly thinks! I suspect the only solution would be a good, real article written in a sandbox, followed by a revert war and subsequent banning of yours truly.

:Anyway. I found a new mess ;) But it's not war bait. [[Musical Instruments]] should redirect to the singular (IMO), not vice versa. And [[Musical Instruments Master List]] is redundant and proving it. One links to [[flute]], the other to [[flutes]]. The two articles are both floating out there semi-independently, with "trees" being built off them with no rhyme or reason (or melody either!). It's going to be work combining them and any split files linked from them, but I think it would be worth it.

:By the way, I seem to have my own set of internal "wiki rules", like article titles always being singular and such. Of course, this site has no standards or manual of style other than what immigrants from WP bring with them (I think I have personally bolded 200 article title first uses!). So, thanks again, and if you want to hep with that music thing (I saw you had worked on both files) that would be great! [[User:Human|Human]] 21:03, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

==Paradigms and Sympathy==

Can you take a glance at [[Paradigm shift]]? I gotta go to work, can't finish it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 07:05, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

Thank you for the clarification of the Scientology article. It's been giving me problems.--[[User:JoyousOne|JoyousOne]] 18:51, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

And thanks again...--[[User:JoyousOne|JoyousOne]] 19:03, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

==Unitarian==
I don't understand what you mean about the quote. [[User:Babbit|Babbit]]

==AFSC==

I have re-done the article under the correct heading. Thanks for your help. I don't know how to delete the original article though - can you help? Thanks.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 14:19, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

I'm not quite sure what the point was, then, of going through the business of what is legitimate to copy and under what rules... I could certainly rewrite it, but it would essentially be a rephrasing of what's there, though probably somewhat more concise. That, in the end, seems to be a dodgy way round the copyright rules, since AFSC is the best source on their own work. It seems a worthy subject, suitably encyclopedic, and links to the Religious Society of Friends article to expand it. Let me know when you've considered what I've said here, and if necessary I will rewrite.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 14:43, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

:The point is that AFSC only permits exact copying of all of the material. If Conservapedia is happy with keeping ''it in its exact present form, exactly as written by AFSC,'' then everything is fine. If Conservapedia wants the page to be open to editing and changing, then it's not fine to use the AFSC article as a starting point. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 14:49, 28 April 2007 (EDT)
::Well I have rewritten the article and have it saved as a document to use if necessary. I rewrote the first and last sections to add a better historical context, and left the middle sections - the mission statement and values sections - as they were, with the statement about copying. If you want me to post that, I can. I'll leave it until tomorrow to give people a chance to decide what to do about it. However, the point about rewriting is that there is no other real source for information that isn't taken from AFSC. I have rewritten it in a way that does not directly copy but uses the information, and I think that would be acceptable to the AFSC if it's acceptable to Conservapedia.--[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 15:35, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

:::This discussion is probably better continued at [[Conservapedia:AFD American Friends Service Commission]]; I've copied your comments there. (I'm sure there are other sources for information about AFSC than their site, by the way...)[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 15:38, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

==I dont Understand==
Why did you right that huge article on the Univeristy of Wiscosin Madison on my talk page? i am not mad, i read it but what was the point you were goin for? --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 08:23, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

yes cheers!! --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 09:30, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

== Thanks, fella ==

Surprised it lasted a whole hour. Is "Fair and Balanced" copyrighted by Fox? It'd make a great motto for this place - how's your Latin? ;) --[[User:Robledo|Robledo]] 18:24, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

== image comment ==

your Earlycolleges2.jpg‎ would be better off as a gif - it would be tiny, and have no jpg artifacts. If you want I'll re-create it and upload it. Oh, if I go to do that I'd better have the dates to work with so I don't screw it up. Or of course, you can do it. Thanks! (PS, I like the slowly growing Ivy League tree) [[User:Human|Human]] 20:31, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

: Nice work on the college timeline! Awesome! I'd like to put that on the front page sometime if is legible in a thumb-size version.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:00, 5 May 2007 (EDT)
==Thanks==
Thanks for the kudos - it's super-high praise coming from you - I've always been impressed with your contributions and the way you conduct yourself here.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 09:49, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

== Racist edit summary ==

Mr./Mrs/Miss Smith I object to your offensive and racist comment concerning your edit of [[Stevens Institute of Technology]]. I know there are differences between US and UK usage and it is generally accepted that appropriate spelling be applied depending on the subject matter. While US spelling was appropriate to the article, your edit summary was offensive to many British people. Let us not forget that the UK has been one of the greatest supporters of America in recent years. [[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 18:48, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

::(In ''most'' years, except for some unpleasantness in the late 1700s and early 1800s). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:37, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

:Apologies for any offense. It was tongue-in-cheek. I have a streak of Anglophilia and not infrequently use British spellings by accident. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:50, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

:''Racist?????'' [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:50, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
::"vile Limey" ![[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 18:53, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
:::The British consider themselves to constitute a race? I didn't know that... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:55, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Encyclopedias are meant to be educational.[[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 18:58, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Limeophobe... :P --[[User:Robledo|Robledo]] 18:52, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
::Would you call a German a K**** or a Japanese person a J**? Of course not. But for some reason (British TV?) Americans think it's ok to call the British whatever they want. Maybe "racism" is the wrong word, it's more of an ethnic or national slur. I realize many of the people whose "groups" have not been persecuted for a while in the US tend to join in the fun of calling themselves names, and you meant no harm or insult - but, we live and learn, eh? To quote [[South Park|Stan]]: "I get it. I don't get it." Speaking as white straight male, that goes triple for me... [[User:Human|Human]] 19:30, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
:::Noted. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:36, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

==List of composers==

I've got a little [[Liszt]] / He never will be missed.

:-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 21:55, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

:The music-hall singer attends a series
:Of masses and fugues and ‘ops’
:By Bach, interwoven
:With Spohr and Beethoven,
:At classical Monday Pops.
[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:59, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

== Sysop? ==

Would you be interested in becoming a sysop if you were not expected to spend your time chasing vandals? I think that you could make good use of preveledges like page move, and editing protected pages. Thanks. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] 14:46, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

:I'm just not sure. It bothers me to keep turning it down; it seems ungracious. At the same time, I'm not sure what I'd do with sysop privileges. There's really no shortcut to dealing with people patiently, convincing them if you can, and shrugging and letting it go if you can't.

:Turning it down feels a little as if I'm pretending to be better than I really am. It doesn't mean I wouldn't ''like'' to swat people with a clue-by-four, and it doesn't mean I can always—or even often—get the patient-convincing-thing to work. I like to think I'm getting better with practice, though.

:With regard to protected pages: yeah, it's very frustrating, but if I can't convince stubborn sysop XYZ of certain things (and I can't!) then effectively I can't change the page anyway. That is, with sysop status I'd have the power to get into an edit war with sysop XYZ, but I wouldn't have the power to change the page and ''have it stay changed'' unless I can convince XYZ. And if I can convince XYZ, well, then I can "change the page" without sysop status, by convincing XYZ to change it.

:Probably best to leave things as they are. If the group wants to call me an "honorary sysop" I'd like that. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 15:31, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Also, some sysops have an I'm a sysop you are not so your opinion doesn't matter, and if you were a sysop you wouldn't have to worry about that. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] 16:05, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

::I think most of what you just said is exactly why people here would like you to have access to those powers and privileges. It doesn't mean you have to change any of what you do, but I think there is a pretty good consensus, for instance, that you could be implicitly trusted with the 'page move' feature, which is very useful to a diligent and conscientious editor such as yourself. Likewise, the 'revert' button is a great tool in the hands of a trusted and active editor. [[User:Human|Human]] 15:50, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

== Moving Averages? ==

Are you going to include moving averages as well?
--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 11:22, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Average

2007-05-15T15:20:24Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Other "measures of central tendency" */

The '''average''' is the sum of a group of numbers divided by the number of values in the group. For example, the average of 3, 5, and 7 is <math>15 \div 3=5</math>.

Another term for average is the [[arithmetic mean]].

==Other "measures of central tendency"==
An average takes a set of numbers and replaces it with a single number. The average has these properties:
*If all the numbers in the set are equal, then the average equal to every number in the group. The average of 15, 15, 15, 15, and 15 is 15.
*If the numbers in the set are not equal, the average always falls somewhere within the set. That is, it is higher than the lowest number and lower than the highest number.

Because of these characteristics, an average takes a group of numbers and replaces it with a single number that can be thought of as the center of the group, or as a representative value that can stand for the whole group.

The average is ''not'' the only measurement with these characteristics. It is one of a number of ''measures of central tendency.'' All of them replace a group of numbers with a single number that falls somewhere within the group.

Because the average is familiar and easily calculated, it is often chosen as the single number that summarizes a group. Depending on how the number is to be used, sometimes the average is a good choice, sometimes it is not, so it is important to understand the other choices.

*The [[mid-range]] is the value which falls exactly half way between the two extreme values in the the group.
*The [[median]] is the value which splits the group of numbers in the middle: half are higher, half are lower. The median is the most commonly used [[quantile]].
*The [[mode]] is the exact value (or values) which occurs the most often in the group; in a continuous distribution, it is the highest peak.

*The average most commonly used is known as the ''arithmetic mean.'' There are other ''means.''
**The [[geometric mean]] is used for "averaging" compound interest rates and in other percentage-growth situations.
**The [[harmonic mean]] is used when averaging speeds that are all measured along the same distance (rather than the same time).
**The [[root mean square]] is used in engineering power calculations, and heavily used in statistics in measurements of [[variance]].

==An example of average, median, and mode==
Consider the number of chapters in each of the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament.<ref>Chosen because it is an example of a set of numbers that is far from having a normal distribribution.</ref>. Ranked in order by number of chapters, the list is:
:1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10, 12, 12, 13, 14, 14, 21, 22, 24, 24, 25, 27, 29, 31, 31, 34, 36, 36, 40, 42, 48, 50, 52, 66, 150
*The thirty-nine books contain a total of 929 chapters, so the ''average'' number of chapters is 23.8.
*The middle item of the set is the twentieth item, with nineteen items below it and nineteen items above it; the twentieth item is 14, so the ''median'' number of chapters is 14.
*There are four books (Joel, Nahum, Habbakuk, and Zephaniah) that are 3 chapters long. The number 3 occurs more times in the list than any other. The ''mode'' of the set of numbers is 3.
The list contains many books with a small number of chapters, a few books with a large number of chapters, and one book (Psalms) with a much larger number of chapters than any of the others. This is an example of a "skewed distribution." In skewed distributions, the average and the median can be very different, as they are here.
Notice that 22 of the items have values below the average and only 17 have values above it. Thus, 56% of the items have values below the average.

On ''A Prairie Home Companion,'' Garrison Keillor jokes about Lake Wobegon where "all the children are above average." It is not actually possible for all of the items in a set to be "above average." However, it is easy to concoct a highly skewed distribution in which 90% of them are. Imagine a circus act with nine clowns and one macaque monkey, and ask "what is the average weight of the performers in the act?" If the clowns weigh about 150 pounds each and the monkey weighs about 10 pounds, then the average weight of the performers is 1360 pounds / 10 performers = 136 pounds. The monkey is below average, and the nine clowns—90% of the performers—are above average.

==The average as a "balance point"==
[[Image:Ruler.jpg|right]]
If equal weights are hung from a ruler, and the weight of the ruler itself is small enough to be neglected, the distance marking at which the ruler will balance can be shown to be the average of the distance markings at which the weights are hung.

In this diagram, weights are hung at the 1, 9, and 11 inch marks. The average of 1, 9, and 11 is 7. The ruler will balance if it is hung at the 7 inch mark. This can be considered as an example of an "analog computer" for the average.

When there are two numbers in a set, the average always "splits the difference" between them. For example, the average of 10 and 20 is 15. The two numbers, 10 and 20, are separated by ten units. The average, 15, is five units away from 10 and five units away from 20.

In the weight-and-ruler example, if we look at the distances of the weights to the left and right of the average, we see that
:One weight is 6 inches to the left of the average
:The other weights are 2 and 4 units to the right of the average
The distance of the weight on the left&dmash;6 inches;equals the total of the distances of the weights on the right.

It can be shown that this is always true. The ''sum of the distances''<ref>i.e. the absolute magnitude of the difference</ref> between the average and each of the numbers above it is always equal to the sum of the distances between the average and each of the numbers below it.

Compare this to the median. In the case of the median, the ''count'' of the numbers above the median equals the count of the numbers below the median.

==Weighted averages==
A ''weighted average'' is an average in which some of the items of the group count or weigh more than others.

One way to do this is to repeat an item or include it more than one time in the calculation of the average.
For example, consider the ruler diagram above. Imagine that we hang ''ten'' weights at the 11" mark. Instead of
:(1 + 9 + 11) / 2 = 7,
it is now
:(1 + 9 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11 + 11) / 12 = 10
Giving extra "weight" to one of the items moves the average closer to the items with more weight.

In this case, we put ten weights at the 11" mark and added it in ten times. But we could have hung one ''heavier'' weight at the 11" mark. That weight could be 2.5 or 8.6 or 16.184 times as much as the others. When we used ten weights, we could have written the calculation for the average this way:
:(1·1 + 1·9 + 10·11) / (1 + 1 + 10)
When the weights are not integers, we do the calculation the same way. Instead of a sum, we use a ''weighted sum,'' in which each item is multiplied by a weighting factor; when we do the division, instead of dividing by the number of items, we divided by the ''sum of the weights.''
As an example of a case where a weighted average is appropriate: suppose I gas my car every Monday. Suppose that during one month price of gas is $2.00 per gallon the first week, $2.20 the second week, and $2.40 the third week, and $2.20 the fourth week. A newspaper report might say that the average price of gas for the month is the average of those four numbers:
:($2.00 + $2.20 + $2.40 + $2.20) / 4 = $2.20.
But the average price of the gas ''I bought'' depends on how much gas I buy each week. For me, the average price of gas is the price of gas each week ''weighted by'' the amount of gas I actually bought each week.

For example, suppose that I did almost no driving on the first, second, and fourth weeks, and bought only one gallon because (for some reason) I wanted to keep the tank topped up, but that on the third week I was on vacation, took a trip, and used ten gallons. Since I did almost of my driving on the third week, the price of the gas '''I''' bought is going to be dominated by that third week. It is going to be close to $2.40 per gallon. If I hadn't bought any gas at all on the first, second, and fourth weeks, the price of gas on those weeks wouldn't have mattered at all. As it is, they don't matter very much.

If I look at the four receipts at the end of the month, I see:
:First week: 1 gallon at $2.00 per gallon, total $2.00
:Second week: 1 gallon at $2.20 per gallon, total $2.20
:Third week: 10 gallons at $2.40 per gallon, total $24.00
:Fourth week: 1 gallon at $2.20 per gallon, total $2.20

At the end of the month, I've spent a total of $30.40 and I've bought a total of 13 gallons of gas, so the average price of the gas ''I'' bought is $30.40/13 = $2.34 per gallon:

:(1·2.00 + 1·2.20 + 10·2.40 + 1·2.20) / (1 + 1 + 10 + 1) = 2.34

[[category:Mathematics]]

Cuneiform

2007-05-15T14:43:03Z

SeanTheSheep: Clay tokens - a precursor to writing

'''Cuneiform''' is the earliest form of [[writing]]. Cuneiforms were made by pressing a sharpened [[reed]] into a soft clay tablet to make wedge shaped letters. Cuneiform comes from the [[Latin]] word ''cuneus'', meaning wedge. <ref>Spodek, Howard. ''The World's History''. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall, 2006. 56.</ref>

== Pre-Cuneiform Clay Tokens ==

[[Image:Claytokens.gif|left|thumb|250px|A selection of clay tokens used to press into wet clay to record transactions]]

Small clay tokens of multiple shapes have been found in Near Eastern sites of 8000-3000 B.C. and constitute the earliest evidence for accounting, and constitute the current theory as to the origin of writing<ref> Schmandt-Besserat, Denise. 1992. Before Writing. Austin: University of Texas Press</ref> . Clay 'envelopes' have been found alongside these tokens, and the current hypothesis is that initially such tokens were used for trade and to keep records. In the earliest instances, the tokens were merely sealed into the envelopes to secure the record. Somewhat later, in order that the contents of the sealed envelope could be read, the tokens were pressed into the wet clay of the envelope prior to sealing. Later on still, the tokens were left out of the envelope, which was then collapsed to form a clay tablet, with the tokens merely being pressed into the surface of the wet clay. This then became the record. The standard cuneiform tablet which evolved from this was then a small step. <ref> For a fuller explanation of this see: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/numerals/dsb/dsb.html </ref>.

== The Evolution of Cuneiform ==

[[Image:Cuneiform.jpg|thumb|300px|A cuneiform tablet]]

[[Pictogram]]s were first used by the [[Sumerian]]s around 3500 BC, a direct product of the [[fertile crescent]]. True wedge-shaped Cuneiform symbols were created around 3000 BC. Later the pictograms evolved into [[ideogram]]s, and finally the modern Sumerian [[alphabet]]. <ref>Spodek, Howard. ''The World's History''. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall, 2006. 55-56.</ref>

== References ==
<references/>
[[category:anthropology]]
[[category:languages]]

File:Claytokens.gif

2007-05-15T14:37:28Z

SeanTheSheep: Sumerian Clay Tokens

Sumerian Clay Tokens

Cuneiform

2007-05-15T14:35:55Z

SeanTheSheep:

'''Cuneiform''' is the earliest form of [[writing]]. Cuneiforms were made by pressing a sharpened [[reed]] into a soft clay tablet to make wedge shaped letters. Cuneiform comes from the [[Latin]] word ''cuneus'', meaning wedge. <ref>Spodek, Howard. ''The World's History''. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall, 2006. 56.</ref>

== Pre-Cuneiform Clay Tokens ==
Small clay tokens of multiple shapes have been found in Near Eastern sites of 8000-3000 B.C. and constitute the earliest evidence for accounting, and constitute the current theory as to the origin of writing<ref> Schmandt-Besserat, Denise. 1992. Before Writing. Austin: University of Texas Press</ref> . Clay 'envelopes' have been found alongside these tokens, and the current hypothesis is that initially such tokens were used for trade and to keep records. In the earliest instances, the tokens were merely sealed into the envelopes to secure the record. Somewhat later, in order that the contents of the sealed envelope could be read, the tokens were pressed into the wet clay of the envelope prior to sealing. Later on still, the tokens were left out of the envelope, which was then collapsed to form a clay tablet, with the tokens merely being pressed into the surface of the wet clay. This then became the record. The standard cuneiform tablet which evolved from this was then a small step. <ref> For a fuller explanation of this see: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/numerals/dsb/dsb.html </ref>.

[[Image:Cuneiform.jpg|thumb|300px|A cuneiform tablet]]

== The Evolution of Cuneiform ==
[[Pictogram]]s were first used by the [[Sumerian]]s around 3500 BC, a direct product of the [[fertile crescent]]. True wedge-shaped Cuneiform symbols were created around 3000 BC. Later the pictograms evolved into [[ideogram]]s, and finally the modern Sumerian [[alphabet]]. <ref>Spodek, Howard. ''The World's History''. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall, 2006. 55-56.</ref>

== References ==
<references/>
[[category:anthropology]]
[[category:languages]]

Talk:Average

2007-05-15T07:55:01Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Analog for Average */

Notice postied on EdPoor's page:

I noticed that you edited out my (correct) version of [[average]], and replaced it with the previously (incorrect) one, labelling my version as obscure. This confirms for me what I have been thinking for some time, that the entire CP project is doomed, unless you and other Sysops get a bit more open-minded, and read the entries that others have written and are prepared to learn, rather than be dogmatic. I defined Average, exactly as I would define it to my students; the point is, that in common parlance, people use average as the middle or most likely of set of data, without actually understanding that the idea is problematic. As it turns out, the most sensible 'middle' is actually the median, and the most common is the mode; however, neither of these are what people normally refer to as "the average"; notmally they calculate it using the arithmetic mean. However that is neither the most common, nor the middle. Can you provide an explanation what the arithmetic mean ACTUALLY is - what is it attempting to measure in everyday language??? It's extremely difficult to explain.

In fact, what the arithmetic mean is, goes something like: "If all the data were the same, but you had the same total as you had before, then the data value you get would be called the average". The aritmetic mean of 10, 20 30 is 20.

The geometric mean you get when you ask the same question for rates of interest (10%, 20% and 30% have a mean of 18.17%), and the harmonic mean you get when you ask the same question about speeds (10kmph, 20kmph, 30kmph have an mean of 16.3kmph) .

If anyone who was editing the average pages knew anything about descriptive statistics, this page should say something a lot different.

You certainly should not be reverting such pages, because you clearly don't have sufficient mathematical understanding to appreciate the nuances.

[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 03:05, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

The point about all of this is that calculations made on data sets are statistical estimates of something or other. If they are not, then there is no point to them. In this particular case, the average is an estimate of the central location or central tendency of the data, i.e. the answer to the question whereabouts is the data located?

A definition of average, which tells someone how to calculate one of the measures for this without explaining what we are trying to do, or discussing what the problems are in trying to capture such a thing is wrong.

The main reason that we almost uniformly use the arithmetic mean as the average is quite difficult to grasp: There is an important result in "Expectation Algebra" which says if you estimate the overall 'expected' mean of a probability distribution by using the arithmetic mean of a data set derived from that distribution, then the expected value of the distribution of arithmetic means is the mean that you started with; i.e. that the arithmetic mean is an '''unbiased estimator''' of the distribution mean (it is also a '''consistent estimator''', and, as it turns out the most '''efficient estimator'''). Those are the reasons it is used, and that result underpins what is probably the most important theorem in the whole of statistics: The Central Limit Theorem.

However, I am not suggesting that we clutter up the definition with all of that. What I am saying though is that there are lots of different ways of trying to find the middle of a set of data, and that saying that average is (add them up and divide by the number of numbers) is inapproprate on three counts:
* firstly that it ignores what the ''idea'' of average is trying to do,
* secondly that it does not discuss whether "average" defined in this manner actually captures the required notion
* thirdly it does not discuss in what situations an arithmetic average is, or is not appropriate.

--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 04:31, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:Conservapedia is partially intended as a learning resource for homeschooled teenagers. An article like ''average'' should cover the topic clearly and concisely at a high school level before moving on to more advanced issues, and it should do so in simple language. You might want to try out writing drafts of more advanced material here. You certainly shouldn't replace something that's accurate and succinct with something that's richer and more advanced but harder to understand.

:Averages have other uses besides being estimators of the mean of a normally distributed population. The arithmetic mean is very suitable for some of them. For example, if I drive 20,000 miles a year, and if I am trying to decide whether to buy a 50 mpg Prius or a 25 mpg PT Cruiser, the datum of interest to me in estimating fuel costs is the average (arithmetic mean) price of gas over the time period of interest... not the median or the mode or the kurtosis.

:On the other hand... a Prius has a dashboard display that displays the average miles per gallon as a bar chart, over five-minute intervals. On a 25-minute trip, the display registers 30 mpg for the first five minutes, 35 mpg for the next five, 40 mpg for the next five, 45 mpg for the next five, 50 mpg for last five. Assuming the car is driven at a constant speed, what's the average mileage for the trip? Answer: the harmonic mean of 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50 = 38.72 mpg. I wouldn't call that practical, but it's one of the very few real-world examples I've ever come across where the right answer is the harmonic mean. (Another is the average speed of a consisting of equal ''distances'' driven at varying speeds... e.g. if I commute to work at an average speed of 70 mph and commute home at an average speed of 30 mph, what's my average speed for the day? Answer: the harmonic mean of 70 and 30. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:08, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

==some random math stuff in case anyone wants to use it==

<math>x_{avg} = \frac{x_1 + x_2 + x_3 + ... + x_n}{n}</math>

[[User:Human|Human]] 17:13, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

== Analog for Average ==

Thanks for this, it makes the function of the arithmetic mean a LOT clearer, however, this does still not address the main problem here. AVERAGE is a conversational term used by people to indicate the centrality of data, and that can be measured in lots of ways. The arithmetic mean is only one of those averages, and as such, we should be indicating what the others are, and whether they measure up to the idea of "average".

AVERAGE is NOT Arithmetical mean.

--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 03:48, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

See for example the following from http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/a/a0545300.html

definition
n.
Mathematics
* A number that typifies a set of numbers of which it is a function.
* See arithmetic mean.
* An intermediate level or degree: near the average in size.
* The usual or ordinary kind or quality: Although the wines vary, the average is quite good.
* Sports The ratio of a team's or player's successful performances such as wins, hits, or goals, divided by total opportunities for successful performance, such as games, times at bat, or shots: finished the season with a .500 average; a batting average of .274.
* Law: The loss of a ship or cargo, caused by damage at sea; The incurrence of damage or loss of a ship or cargo at sea; The equitable distribution of such a loss among concerned parties; . A charge incurred through such a loss.
* Nautical Small expenses or charges that are usually paid by the master of a ship.
adj.
* Mathematics Of, relating to, or constituting an average.
* Being intermediate between extremes, as on a scale: a player of average ability.
* Usual or ordinary in kind or character: a poll of average people; average eyesight.
* Assessed in accordance with the law of averages.
* Synonyms: average, medium, mediocre, fair1, middling, indifferent, tolerable; These adjectives indicate a middle position on a scale of evaluation. Average and medium apply to what is midway between extremes and imply both sufficiency and lack of distinction: a novel of average merit; an orange of medium size.
* Mediocre stresses the undistinguished aspect of what is average: "The caliber of the students . . . has gone from mediocre to above average" (Judy Pasternak).
* What is fair is passable but substantially below excellent: in fair health; Middling refers to a ranking between average and mediocre: gave a middling performance.
* Indifferent suggests neutrality: "His home, alas, was but an indifferent attic" (Edward Everett Hale).
* Something tolerable is merely acceptable: prepared a tolerable meal

--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 03:55, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Average

2007-05-15T07:49:25Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Analog for Average */

Talk:Average

2007-05-15T07:48:42Z

SeanTheSheep: Analog for Average

Notice postied on EdPoor's page:

I noticed that you edited out my (correct) version of [[average]], and replaced it with the previously (incorrect) one, labelling my version as obscure. This confirms for me what I have been thinking for some time, that the entire CP project is doomed, unless you and other Sysops get a bit more open-minded, and read the entries that others have written and are prepared to learn, rather than be dogmatic. I defined Average, exactly as I would define it to my students; the point is, that in common parlance, people use average as the middle or most likely of set of data, without actually understanding that the idea is problematic. As it turns out, the most sensible 'middle' is actually the median, and the most common is the mode; however, neither of these are what people normally refer to as "the average"; notmally they calculate it using the arithmetic mean. However that is neither the most common, nor the middle. Can you provide an explanation what the arithmetic mean ACTUALLY is - what is it attempting to measure in everyday language??? It's extremely difficult to explain.

In fact, what the arithmetic mean is, goes something like: "If all the data were the same, but you had the same total as you had before, then the data value you get would be called the average". The aritmetic mean of 10, 20 30 is 20.

The geometric mean you get when you ask the same question for rates of interest (10%, 20% and 30% have a mean of 18.17%), and the harmonic mean you get when you ask the same question about speeds (10kmph, 20kmph, 30kmph have an mean of 16.3kmph) .

If anyone who was editing the average pages knew anything about descriptive statistics, this page should say something a lot different.

You certainly should not be reverting such pages, because you clearly don't have sufficient mathematical understanding to appreciate the nuances.

[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 03:05, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

The point about all of this is that calculations made on data sets are statistical estimates of something or other. If they are not, then there is no point to them. In this particular case, the average is an estimate of the central location or central tendency of the data, i.e. the answer to the question whereabouts is the data located?

A definition of average, which tells someone how to calculate one of the measures for this without explaining what we are trying to do, or discussing what the problems are in trying to capture such a thing is wrong.

The main reason that we almost uniformly use the arithmetic mean as the average is quite difficult to grasp: There is an important result in "Expectation Algebra" which says if you estimate the overall 'expected' mean of a probability distribution by using the arithmetic mean of a data set derived from that distribution, then the expected value of the distribution of arithmetic means is the mean that you started with; i.e. that the arithmetic mean is an '''unbiased estimator''' of the distribution mean (it is also a '''consistent estimator''', and, as it turns out the most '''efficient estimator'''). Those are the reasons it is used, and that result underpins what is probably the most important theorem in the whole of statistics: The Central Limit Theorem.

However, I am not suggesting that we clutter up the definition with all of that. What I am saying though is that there are lots of different ways of trying to find the middle of a set of data, and that saying that average is (add them up and divide by the number of numbers) is inapproprate on three counts:
* firstly that it ignores what the ''idea'' of average is trying to do,
* secondly that it does not discuss whether "average" defined in this manner actually captures the required notion
* thirdly it does not discuss in what situations an arithmetic average is, or is not appropriate.

--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 04:31, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:Conservapedia is partially intended as a learning resource for homeschooled teenagers. An article like ''average'' should cover the topic clearly and concisely at a high school level before moving on to more advanced issues, and it should do so in simple language. You might want to try out writing drafts of more advanced material here. You certainly shouldn't replace something that's accurate and succinct with something that's richer and more advanced but harder to understand.

:Averages have other uses besides being estimators of the mean of a normally distributed population. The arithmetic mean is very suitable for some of them. For example, if I drive 20,000 miles a year, and if I am trying to decide whether to buy a 50 mpg Prius or a 25 mpg PT Cruiser, the datum of interest to me in estimating fuel costs is the average (arithmetic mean) price of gas over the time period of interest... not the median or the mode or the kurtosis.

:On the other hand... a Prius has a dashboard display that displays the average miles per gallon as a bar chart, over five-minute intervals. On a 25-minute trip, the display registers 30 mpg for the first five minutes, 35 mpg for the next five, 40 mpg for the next five, 45 mpg for the next five, 50 mpg for last five. Assuming the car is driven at a constant speed, what's the average mileage for the trip? Answer: the harmonic mean of 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50 = 38.72 mpg. I wouldn't call that practical, but it's one of the very few real-world examples I've ever come across where the right answer is the harmonic mean. (Another is the average speed of a consisting of equal ''distances'' driven at varying speeds... e.g. if I commute to work at an average speed of 70 mph and commute home at an average speed of 30 mph, what's my average speed for the day? Answer: the harmonic mean of 70 and 30. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:08, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

==some random math stuff in case anyone wants to use it==

<math>x_{avg} = \frac{x_1 + x_2 + x_3 + ... + x_n}{n}</math>

[[User:Human|Human]] 17:13, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

== Analog for Average ==

Thanks for this, it makes the function of the arithmetic mean a LOT clearer, however, this does still not address the main problem here. AVERAGE is a conversational term used by people to indicate the centrality of data, and that an be measured in lots of ways. The arithmetic mean is only one of those averages, and as such, we should be indicating what the others ae, and whether they measure up to the idea of "average".

AVERAGE is NOT Arithmetical mean.

--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 03:48, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:41:10Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Links */

A '''Tessellation''' is a regular tiling of the infinite plane by [[polygon]]s, or of an infinite three dimensional space by [[polyhedra]], or of an infinite n-dimensional space by [[polytopes]].

[[Image:SemiregularTessellation.gif|right|200px|thumb| The eight semiregular tessellations]]

===Plane Tessellations===

Tessellations of the plane can be classified as follows:

'''Regular Tesselations''' are comprised of simple repetitions of the same [[regular polygon]]. There are three distinct regular tessellations: equilateral triangles, squares and hexagons.

'''Semiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is the same for all vertices in the plane. There are ''eight'' such semiregular tessellations. These are often referred to as Archimedean tessellations.

'''Demiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is different for some of the vertices in the plane. Although it can be argued that the number of such tessellations is infinite, they can be reduced to 14 specific types.

[[Image:EscherTiling.jpg|left]]
Other tessellations of the plane exist. See for example the tilings of [[M.C. Escher]], such as the one which is illustrated here. Such tilings are not tessellations, in that they are not comprised of polygons. However, these tilings are based on one of the above named types of tessellation.

The tiling illustrated is based on a regular tessellation of squares.

[[Image:Penrosetiling.gif|right|150px]]

A tiling is periodic if, when translated in at least two non-parallel directions the tiling 'merges' with itself. A collection of tiles is aperiodic if the collection tiles the plane, but never in a periodic fashion. [[Roger Penrose]] discovered several such tilings in the 1970's.

The one here demonstrates aspects of fivefold symmetry, and was inspired by some of the tilings of [[Kepler]].

===Links===

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html

http://www.tessellations.org/eschergallery3thumbs.htm

http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/symmetry/aperiod.htm

Talk:Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:39:53Z

SeanTheSheep: New page: If anyone wishes to add to this, extend it, please feel free.--~~~~

If anyone wishes to add to this, extend it, please feel free.--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 19:39, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:38:18Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Plane Tessellations */

File:Penrosetiling.gif

2007-05-14T23:34:04Z

SeanTheSheep: Penrose Aperiodic tiling

Penrose Aperiodic tiling

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:33:35Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Plane Tessellations */

A '''Tessellation''' is a regular tiling of the infinite plane by [[polygon]]s, or of an infinite three dimensional space by [[polyhedra]], or of an infinite n-dimensional space by [[polytopes]].

[[Image:SemiregularTessellation.gif|right|200px|thumb| The eight semiregular tessellations]]

===Plane Tessellations===

Tessellations of the plane can be classified as follows:

'''Regular Tesselations''' are comprised of simple repetitions of the same [[regular polygon]]. There are three distinct regular tessellations: equilateral triangles, squares and hexagons.

'''Semiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is the same for all vertices in the plane. There are ''eight'' such semiregular tessellations. These are often referred to as Archimedean tessellations.

'''Demiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is different for some of the vertices in the plane. Although it can be argued that the number of such tessellations is infinite, they can be reduced to 14 specific types.

[[Image:EscherTiling.jpg|left]]
Other tessellations of the plane exist. See for example the tilings of [[M.C. Escher]], such as the one which is illustrated here. Such tilings are not tessellations, in that they are not comprised of polygons. However, these tilings are based on one of the above named types of tessellation.

The tiling illustrated is based on a regular tessellation of squares.

A tiling is periodic if, when translated in at least two non-parallel directions the tiling 'merges' with itself. A collection of tiles is aperiodic if the collection tiles the plane, but never in a periodic fashion. [[Roger Penrose]] discovered several such tilings in the 1970's.

===Links===

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html

http://www.tessellations.org/eschergallery3thumbs.htm

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:27:27Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Links */

A '''Tessellation''' is a regular tiling of the infinite plane by [[polygon]]s, or of an infinite three dimensional space by [[polyhedra]], or of an infinite n-dimensional space by [[polytopes]].

[[Image:SemiregularTessellation.gif|right|200px|thumb| The eight semiregular tessellations]]

===Plane Tessellations===

Tessellations of the plane can be classified as follows:

'''Regular Tesselations''' are comprised of simple repetitions of the same [[regular polygon]]. There are three distinct regular tessellations: equilateral triangles, squares and hexagons.

'''Semiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is the same for all vertices in the plane. There are ''eight'' such semiregular tessellations. These are often referred to as Archimedean tessellations.

'''Demiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is different for some of the vertices in the plane. Although it can be argued that the number of such tessellations is infinite, they can be reduced to 14 specific types.

[[Image:EscherTiling.jpg|left]]
Other tessellations of the plane exist. See for example the tilings of [[M.C. Escher]], such as the one which is illustrated here. Such tilings are not tessellations, in that they are not comprised of polygons. However, these tilings are based on one of the above named types of tessellation.

The tiling illustrated is based on a regular tessellation of squares.

===Links===

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html

http://www.tessellations.org/eschergallery3thumbs.htm

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:22:39Z

SeanTheSheep:

A '''Tessellation''' is a regular tiling of the infinite plane by [[polygon]]s, or of an infinite three dimensional space by [[polyhedra]], or of an infinite n-dimensional space by [[polytopes]].

[[Image:SemiregularTessellation.gif|right|200px|thumb| The eight semiregular tessellations]]

===Plane Tessellations===

Tessellations of the plane can be classified as follows:

'''Regular Tesselations''' are comprised of simple repetitions of the same [[regular polygon]]. There are three distinct regular tessellations: equilateral triangles, squares and hexagons.

'''Semiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is the same for all vertices in the plane. There are ''eight'' such semiregular tessellations. These are often referred to as Archimedean tessellations.

'''Demiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is different for some of the vertices in the plane. Although it can be argued that the number of such tessellations is infinite, they can be reduced to 14 specific types.

[[Image:EscherTiling.jpg|left]]
Other tessellations of the plane exist. See for example the tilings of [[M.C. Escher]], such as the one which is illustrated here. Such tilings are not tessellations, in that they are not comprised of polygons. However, these tilings are based on one of the above named types of tessellation.

The tiling illustrated is based on a regular tessellation of squares.

===Links===

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:18:19Z

SeanTheSheep: Undo revision 161106 by Special:Contributions/JonathanCoultonIsTheWedge (User talk:JonathanCoultonIsTheWedge)

File:EscherTiling.jpg

2007-05-14T23:17:07Z

SeanTheSheep: Escher Tiling

Escher Tiling

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:16:37Z

SeanTheSheep:

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:10:46Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Plane Tessellations */

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:09:25Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Plane Tessellations */

File:SemiregularTessellation.gif

2007-05-14T23:05:33Z

SeanTheSheep: Semiregular tessellation

Semiregular tessellation

Tessellation

2007-05-14T23:05:01Z

SeanTheSheep: create article

A '''Tessellation''' is a regular tiling of the infinite plane by [[polygon]]s, or of an infinite three dimensional space by [[polyhedra]], or of an infinite n-dimensional space by [[polytopes]].

===Plane Tessellations===

Tessellations of the plane can be classified as follows:

'''Regular Tesselations''' are comprised of simple repetitions of the same [[regular polygon]]. There are three distinct regular tessellations: equilateral triangles, squares and hexagons.

'''Semiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is the same for all vertices in the plane. There are ''eight'' such semiregular tessellations.

'''Demiregular Tessellations''' are comprised of repetitions of two or more regular polygons, where the number and type of each kind of polygon surrounding each vertex is different for some of the vertices in the plane. Although it can be argued that the number of such tessellations is infinite, they can be reduced to 14 specific types.

===Links===

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html

Trapezoid

2007-05-14T22:48:03Z

SeanTheSheep:

A '''trapezoid''' (British: [[trapezium]]) is a four-sided [[polygon]] with two [[parallel]] sides.

[[Image:trapezoid.gif]]

The following properties arise from the definition:
* Two of the pairs of adjacent angles sum to 180o
* The area of the trapezium is the average of the parallel sides multiplied by the distance between them.

[[Category:Geometry]]

Talk:Deceit

2007-05-14T22:37:08Z

SeanTheSheep: /* contradiction in the definition */

== The assertion "Liberals rarely criticize deceit" ==
The assertion "Liberals rarely criticize deceit" is made in this "article". Please remove this lie immediately. Feel free to make some bizarre anti-abortion reference, after all, this site is ''your blog'', basically, on the [[abortion|issues]] you [[creation|hold dear]]. But if you think "liberals" don't criticize deceit, you're not paying attention. The clearest recent example is the Bush administration's deceit about weapons of mass destruction in order to invade Iraq. See me criticizing it? I'll criticize the <s>Bay</s>[[Gulf of Tonkin]] lies, too, if you need me to be even-handed about presidents lying us into unnecessary wars. [[User:Human|Human]] 20:55, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

:Carefull now, the last two users who dared to touch that claim are now banned. While using this site i have learned several new words and phrases, which is nice as i don't speak english as my native language. One of those words is: "concervative fact". And i think it's exactly what we have here. Claim that we liberals are deceivers isn't a lie or gross generalization, it's an concervative fact and claiming otherwise shows liberal bias. Allso like most conservative facts, it dosent need citation or anything to back the claim, facts are facts.

:Okey, and now ill apologize my outburst, but Mr.Aschlafly, i ask you, how would you react if some one accused you of being a deceiver or accepting deceptions with out any other evidence than that you think yourself as conservative? I really ask you to reconcider both the content of this article and the banning of those two users who most likely where offended by it's content and tryed to change it. There is no way one can justify a claim like that in an encyclopedia. [[User:Timppeli|Timppeli]] 21:41, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

::Thank you for the warning, [[User:Timppeli|Timppeli]], but as much as I try, I cannot seem to get any bannings! Maybe it is because I keep adding to the "[[User:Human/Classic_Conservapedia|encyclopedia]]" that backs up this '''blog'''. [[User:Human|Human]] 01:03, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

I agree: this is not encyclopedia-worth material.

[[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]

:Liberals here protest too much about this entry on [[deceit]]. In both examples, the deceit by liberals is conclusively proven. But did other liberals who joined in the deceit apologize for it? Not that I'm aware. Show me examples of apologies and I'll add them.

: Additional airtight proofs of deceit can be added. But partisan opinions will not be.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:16, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
:: Silly me, I keep forgetting that all Liberals are, rather than being individual people with varying opinions on topics, mere appendages of a single world-spanning hivemind, and thus all are guilty for the misdeeds of every one. That's why all political statements made by anyone less Conservative than Pat Robertson have to be prefaced by a three-hour disclaimer renouncing every single evil deed committed by every liberal dating back to Ramses II, right? --[[User:Gulik2|Gulik2]] 22:53, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
::Politicians Lie. It's pretty much in the job description these days.
::I'll run with the Gulf of Tonkin/Johnson/Viet Nam and WMDs/Bush/Iraq lies. By the way, you have a typo at "after communist collapsed". I'd fix it but, well, the article is locked. [[User:Human|Human]] 18:04, 22 April 2007 (EDT)

== Examples ==

Should these be included as an example of deceit?

Can the following examples of deceit be added to the main page? It is currently locked and a tad bit one sided. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 13:54, 23 April 2007 (EDT)
:What is deceitful about Wolfowitz's statement? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:41, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
:Also, Tillman could not be used like this, because it is not Tillman being accused of deceit. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:43, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
:: One of the reasons to go to war was "removal of troops from Saudi Arabia"[http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-05-30-wolfowitz-iraq_x.htm], however the lack of finding WMDs and the various indications that known faulty/unreliable intelligence was used to come to the WMD claim. That because of bureaucracy, the case for WMDs was the one offered forward to the American people. Not the actual reasons (whatever those may be).
:: I have retitled the section on Pat Tillman.
:: Still, all of these are in the Talk section. Is there merit for moving any of these to the article? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 22:54, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

=== Paul Wolfowitz ===
"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on." Paul Wolfowitz, May 28, 2003<ref>[http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2676 U.S. Department of Defense - News Transcript]</ref> --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 22:07, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

:What a joke! Click on this one [http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2676] Who made the above quote on May 28, 2003, Paul Wolfowitz or his interviewer, DeYoung? And you present ''this'' as an example of deceit? A little '''''disengenous''''', don't you think, the wrong link, the wrong cite, not even the right person speaking, and calling this as an example of '''''deceit''''' ? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:04, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
:: [http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0305/S00308.htm The Vanity Fair interview transcript] shows quite clearly:
<blockquote>
Q: Was that one of the arguments that was raised early on by you and others that Iraq actually does connect, not to connect the dots too much, but the relationship between Saudi Arabia, our troops being there, and bin Laden's rage about that, which he's built on so many years, also connects the World Trade Center attacks, that there's a logic of motive or something like that? Or does that read too much into -- 

Wolfowitz: No, I think it happens to be correct. '''The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason''', but -- Hold on one second. 
(Pause) 

Kellems: Sam there may be some value in clarity on the point that it may take years to get post-Saddam Iraq right. It can be easily misconstrued, especially when it comes to -- 

Wolfowitz: There have always been three fundamental concerns. One is weapons of mass destruction, the second is support for terrorism, the third is the criminal treatment of the Iraqi people. Actually I guess you could say there's a fourth overriding one which is the connection between the first two. Sorry, hold on again. 
</blockquote>
:: My apologies for using the military transcript asking about the quote instead in which Wolfowitz goes more into what he meant than the Vanity Fair Transcript where it appears he was cut off. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 23:12, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:::I see. So you admit to trying to convince us of something other than what the facts are. Thank you. Now, what do we make of this exchange:

::::Q: What do you think all the conspiritorial talk is? Do you have any notion, in Europe and here? What are people looking at this way?

::::Wolfowitz: I think it's pretty obvious and I think it's pretty disgraceful but all you can do is ignore it and go on and get the job done.

::::Q: What is it? I mean some say anti-Semitism. I guess in Europe that would be --

::::Wolfowitz: I just said all I'm going to say about it.

:::Comments? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:28, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: There is has been the accusation of a conspiracy between oil companies which the President is related to, the Saudi goverment, and other such theories. The argument for war that was mentioned in the Vanity Fair article does not have any of these. Look at Wolfowitz's statement "Wolfowitz: There have always been three fundamental concerns. One is weapons of mass destruction, the second is support for terrorism, the third is the criminal treatment of the Iraqi people. Actually I guess you could say there's a fourth overriding one which is the connection between the first two. Sorry, hold on again." -- These were the reasons to go to war, not just WMD. By focusing on WMD and only on WMD as was done and selectively choosing the intelligence to present (and ignoring the intelligence that said there were no WMDs), there was a misleading of the American population as to the reason to go to war.
:::: Wolfowitz then said "''The third one by itself, as I think I said earlier, is a reason to help the Iraqis but it's not a reason to put American kids' lives at risk, certainly not on the scale we did it. That second issue about links to terrorism is the one about which there's the most disagreement within the bureaucracy, even though I think everyone agrees that we killed 100 or so of an al Qaeda group in northern Iraq in this recent go-around, that we've arrested that al Qaeda guy in Baghdad who was connected to this guy Zarqawi whom Powell spoke about in his UN presentation.''" -- In other words, the lack of support of terrorism was debated (and later shown to be correct - there was no connection), and to help the Iraqis was valid but not enough of a reason alone to go to war. Thus we heard 'WMD' repeated over and over again as the reason, even though there was evidence that the source for the WMD project was not reliable and there was no evidence that Sadam had an active WMD program. As to Zarqawi's relationship with al Qaeda read [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5280219/site/newsweek this Newsweek Article]
::::<blockquote>But just last week, in little-noticed remarks, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld conceded that Zarqawi’s ties to Al Qaeda may have been much more ambiguous—and that he may have been more a rival than a lieutenant to bin Laden. Zarqawi “may very well not have sworn allegiance to [bin Laden]," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon briefing. “Maybe he disagrees with him on something, maybe because he wants to be ‘The Man’ himself and maybe for a reason that’s not known to me.” Rumsfeld added that, “someone could legitimately say he’s not Al Qaeda.”</blockquote>
:::: (a year later from the Wolfowitz interview).
:::: Thus, the questions to answer:
::::* Was the intelligence on WMDs known to be lacking or bad by those pushing it? [http://www.wmd.gov/report/report.html#chapter1]
::::** Alternative reading: Was the assumption for "There are WMDs in Iraq, find intelligence to prove it" the case (read the paragraph begining "Rather, they were the product of poor intelligence collection..." from the above link).
::::* Were there other reasons that lead to going to war that contributed to but were not sufficent?
::::* Given the poor intelligence and unconvincing other reasons, was the case for war in Iraq deceitful?
::::--[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 20:32, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

::::: The conspiracy theory relates specifically to anti-Semitism, i.e. conspiracy theories that state flatly a cabal of Jewish conspirators like Wolfowotz, Perle, ''et al'', have suckered the United States into fighting Israel's wars for them. And the conspiracies do not stop there -- they even say these same conspirators blew the World Trade Center up themselves to get the American people involved in the War on Terror. These same conspirators invented lies like WMD to justify their actions. This specifically is the question Tannenhaus asked, and this specifically is the answer Wolfowitz gave with "I think it's pretty obvious and I think it's pretty disgraceful" and refused to comment further. And these conspiracies are rampant in Europe and the Arab world, and I'm sorry, the bogus cover about oil companies, etc. to sanitize this Ameerican brand of anti-Semitism will not fly here.

:::::The 9/11 Commission Report infact cites a link between Saddam and al-Qeade, which is the reference given above. The US had been supporting Kurds in northern Iraq since the Gulf War, and the Kurds were fighting ''both'' Saddam ''and'' al-Qeada, as the Commission Report stated.

:::::As to WMD, this interview doesn't reveal anything new. And there is no reason to speculate that simply because the US Government has not publicly announced much information on this subject, that news organizations accounts are definitive or authoritive.

:::::Ultimately, again, the cited objective of the war was regime change; WMD was cited as one of several reasons for regime change, but the specific objective was regime change, not discovering WMD stockpiles for TV cameras to take pictures of. My appologies again for giving a quick answer on this, because it does warrant more discussion, but I'm a little rushed for time at the moment, and we can go into more detail later on the WMD business. But I'm not certain this is the correct page for what may be an extensive discussion of the matter. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:12, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

(Move indent) Ok, so Wolfowitz says,''"There have always been three fundamental concerns.
:*One is weapons of mass destruction,
:*the second is support for terrorism,
:*the third is the criminal treatment of the Iraqi people."

And Wolfowitz also says, " for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction"

Now we will cite another well established and influencial decisionmaker in the U.S. governement bureacracy. This decision maker, in her own words, had been deeply involved in the subject for a decade. And we will study of the three reasons that the bureaucracy, which includes Wolfowitz and our source, cited as the reason to go to war, in what order do these reasons match Wolfowitz's. Further, the 9/11 Report infact documents several Saddam - al Qeada contacts for several years prior, but Wolfowitz here only refers to "support for terrorism". Here's our cite

:"There is a very easy way for to prevent anyone from being put into harms way and that is for Saddam Hussein to disarm. And I have absolutely no belief that he will. I have to say that this is something that I have followed for a decade. If he were serious about disarming, he would have been much more forthcoming. There may be progress, we may be destroying his missiles, there is no accounting for the chemical and biological stocks. I just have to respectfully disagree what the proximate cause of any action that might be taken is. [http://www.archive.org/details/HillaryClintonsviewsongoingtowarSaddamandWMDs] [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:49, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

=== Jack Abramoff ===
Jack Abramoff pleaded guilty to fraud, tax evasion and conspiracy to bribe public officials. A bit more digging beyond the guilty plea should identify a signficant amount of deceit in his dealings as a lobbyist. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 22:29, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

:These look like better examples of deceit than those listed in the article. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 10:41, 23 April 2007 (EDT)

=== Pentagon regarding Pat Tillman ===
There is growing evidence[http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_tillmanlynch_070424/] to a cover up and use of the death of Pat Tillman as pro war propoganda by making Pat Tillman a hero rather than someone who got killed in a friendly fire incident. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 21:58, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

== Can deceit be conservative? ==

I think so, but this page wasn't representing that. If all sides are to have a say, then there should be a kind of balance. At least, if we are to have a bias, we should acknowledge opposing views. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 22:07, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

== My 2 cents, again ==

What a ''ridiculous'' concept! That conservatives and liberals (whatever those terms may actually mean) have different views on deceit. I will avoid the whole topic of morality not being dependent on religion. Most people in most cultures disapprove of deceit. It has nothing to do with political affiliations. ''People'' are inherently flawed in many ways (see, e.g. Genesis). One doesn't need to be at Liberty U or Eagle Forum or the Vatican to think deceit is wrong; most people know it is wrong, and most practice it, as we are imperfect beings. This entire article is offensive on its face.--[[User:palmd001|PalMD]][[User_talk:palmd001|talk]] 22:26, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

== My viewpoint ==

Wherever there is power to be got, certain people will practise deceit. The Bible does not make distinction between "Liberal" or "Conservative" deceit, it condemns deceit regardless of who practises it.

== Andy...?! ==

You can't delete fact! That's a legitimate footnote from the case! How is it opinion? Surely it's one judge's opinion, but similarly, all judgments of deceit are someone's opinion!-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 01:12, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

: Ames, I've explained at least a half-dozen times that opinions are not facts. I'm not going to waste more time on this. This is a warning that your account will be blocked if you continue to waste my time or the time of others on this.

: Judge Jones' opinion is nothing more than an opinion. It is not a fact. There was no judgment on the issue you cite here; there was no appeal allowed; and the opinion is not neutral. Do not waste any more of my time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:16, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

Whether or not it was "neutral" is not at issue - it's what a judge said, and that's how I described it in the article. Do you need directions to my refutations of ''your'' arguments? They're in your archives, #16, when you choose to answer them. I realize you don't like this case, and that you don't like a lot of case law in America at the moment (Goodridge, hint hint?) but that doesn't mean it's not ''legal fact'' with binding authority, in the first case we clashed over, or a Republican judge's reasoned decision, in the last one. You can't make facts go away by shouting "Bias!"-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 01:18, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

==Freud==

Most great scientists have their theories disproved. Newton was wrong, Pasteur has been subject ot a great deal of correction. Part of the reason they are great is that they can buildmodels, hypotheses that are open to question. It is easy to make assertions that are opinion or simple observation. To create a model that fits evidence and is later open to testing, particuarly in a field where this has not been the case, is the mark of a great scientist. [[User:stevendavy]] (PhD, since you ask)

A few questions, mr. Schlafly: Are you a practicing psychologist? Can you say with absolute certainty that Freud's methods are useless? Do you have sources that can make this a verifiable fact? Or that can support your claim that Freud lied about his research? [[User:AKjeldsen|AKjeldsen]] 17:36, 22 April 2007 (EDT)

I'd mark it as unsourced , but of course the page is blocked? [[User:Czolgolz|Czolgolz]] 13:31, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

:If you tell that some lies, you should give some reference which gives arguments what is incorrect. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 06:43, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

::This has to be removed within few days, if no sources found. (Prope correction is not to only remove need for ref.) --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 16:39, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

:::I would also like to see a source for the claim that "liberals continue to teach that Freud was a great scientist." In my experience Freud is routinely studied in intro psych classes because he and his ideas are an important element of the history of the field, but the point is typically made that there is no scientific basis for his theories. And while his theories are useless, research has shown that some of his therapeutic methods are indeed useful (some, not all). [[User:Murray|Murray]] 16:49, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

TK, please, discuss and do not censor things as _you_ want them to be. (Or if you want to only censor, please change rules.) --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 07:52, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks! Ref from scientist found :) That I was simply asking for... --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 11:46, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

== And, of course, the page is locked. ==
Good thing, too, or some horrible America-Hater might quote Richard Nixon. --[[User:Gulik2|Gulik2]] 22:49, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
:or George Bush. ish. This is really vulgar abuse sometimes. If only we had a sysop who would listen to reason.... [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 15:46, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::Hey, Flippin! Wouldn't you listen to reason? Gee golly, I wish you were a sysop :-). Or me...-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 15:50, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Why is this locked?! Is this someones "own" encyclopedia? --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 22:53, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
:Yes, it belongs to [[user:Aschlafly|Andrew Schlafly]]. He owns the site. It is is his blog, and the sysops are his co-bloggers. The rest of us are just along for the ride. He is a young earth creationist and passionate liberal-hater. People wanted to broaden some of the page to include a bit more reality. Check out what's been happening over at [[astronomy]] this evening for more of the same... [[User:Human|Human]]

: Pages are locked after there is a pattern of violations of [[rules]] on them. I will unlocked [deceit] per ythe requests here, but if there are rule violations, then it will be locke again.

: Human, I suggest you apologize and promise not to attack editors personally here, or your account will be blocked. Also, you seem to violate the 90/10 rule as independent grounds for blocking.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:13, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
::His count here [http://faleg.org/cgi-bin/conservapedia/editcounter_Tool1?username=Human] shows that of his 1175 edits 466 have been to actual articles (that’s about 40% actual editing). --[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 23:32, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
::This kind of rule should not be used for warnings especially when information at background is not correct. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 14:02, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

== References ==
<references/>

Reference 2 in the article is wrongly attributed, to should read '''Pittsburgh Tribune-Review'''. The writer of the article referenced is ''"Jonah Goldberg is editor at large of National Review Online."'' Perhaps the cite should be from NRO?
:::::--[[User:Rob Pommer| Rob Pommer]][[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|talk]] 02:10, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

:Is it available online? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:50, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

== As long as we're listing lies.... ==

How about [http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/25/tillman_lynch/index.html The Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch frauds]?
Ah, but I forget myself. Those are PRO-WAR lies, and therefore are a-ok. --[[User:Gulik2|Gulik2]] 22:42, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

And that sentence about morality comes to mind. wait... I think I threw up a little in my mouth there. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 15:54, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

:Perhaps we could add [[Ted Haggard]]. At least he admitted he was a ''deceiver''. [[User:Auld Nick|Auld Nick]] 10:43, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

::Yes and no; in the Haggard article, Haggard says, "I am a deceiver and a liar", whereas by contrast, [[Alger Hiss]] denied to his dying day at the age of 92 the evidence against him. And his appologists, despite more evidence piled up since his death, continue deceiving themselves. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 11:38, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

Since Haggard admits his deceit, he should probably be included in the "article" :-P unless you have some objection other than the truth of the allegations.-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 11:52, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

:Yes but Haggard is a confessed deceiver, and evidently nolonger deceiving himself. There is a path of redemption and rehabilitation. Hiss by contrast, set up a foundation to institutionalize the lies. Books have been written, Haynes & Klehr's ''In Denial'' for example, about the absurd contortions supposed intellectuals twisted themselves in to, in an effort that many of themselves don't even beleive anymore. The late Molly Ivans said even after KGB Archives were corroborated by [[Venona]] evidence,
::''"The other curious thing about the Hiss case is the psychology of believing that Hiss was a spy, which requires abandoning much of what we know about rational thought.'' [http://homepages.nyu.edu/~th15/lowsoviet.html]
:There is no comparison. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 12:34, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

Confession vitiates the sin but not the fact. Put him in the "article" as a "former" deceiver if you want, but it's deceit that harmed others, nonetheless.-'''AmesG'''[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!] 12:43, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

John Lott & the Mary Rosh brouhaha would make another good example. His "If national surveys are correct, 98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack" statement isn't as clear cut, but might also be an example; the situation there is oddly similar to the Bellisiles situation, with mysteriously lost/destroyed records of supposed research. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 15:19, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

==Not that anyone asked==
But this ought to be up here if we are going to make an "encyclopedic" entry for deceit. [[Downing Street Memo]] [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:05, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

==Scooter==
We're forgetting Scooter Libby, ''convicted'' of deceit...--[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 23:36, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
:But, you forget, he's a Republican, right? As in, right wing, can do no wrong. Did he Profit!?!?! NO! There's no money to be made in lying for the conservative cause. Hence, no "deceit". QED. [[User:Human|Human]] 00:27, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

*Rarely have I read such petty comments, such mean-spirited comments, ''gentlemen''. In Washington, D.C., people of intellect and good manners of both parties, decried his conviction and persecution. Left holding the bag, it is called. I wonder if either of you would hold up being questioned by a Grand Jury about all your activities for the past year? Shame on both of you for not furthering good will and a higher plane of discourse here. --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 07:25, 7 May 2007 (EDT)
:*If by "left holding the bag" you mean "others in the administration should have been put on trial for endangering lives and national security in furtherance of petty political payback", then I agree heartily. And if you want to further good will and a higher plane of discourse, you could start by recommending this article for deletion...--[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 09:57, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

== Reply to the above ==

It's common for the military to deny [[friendly fire]] as a cause. That denial has nothing to do with being a conservative, and there is no evidence the denial in Tillman's case was by a conservative. FDR's Administration denied it also during World War II when a hero was killed by friendly fire.

Abramoff was no conservative.

Freud is taught to high school and college students without any admission of his deceit.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:17, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:Then why not add the friendly fire deceit example, and the Abramoff example? While pointing out that the deceivers were not representative of Conservatism as defined or interpreted by this site (which is its right to do)? And show the harm each case caused? [[User:Human|Human]] 21:48, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::*A.S., all due respect--Abramoff was a director of the National Center for Public Policy Research (a conservative think tank); he was College Republican National Committee National Chairman; he has longstanding ties to Grover Norquist and Ralph Reed, among others; he was a member of Citizens for America, a pro-Reagan group that helped Oliver North build support for the Nicaraguan contras; when Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds LLP,a lobbying firm, needed a "conservative, Christian Coalition Republican with strong ties to...Republican leadership", they hired Abramoff; he was a member of GWB's transition team in 2001. And so forth. Sounds like a conservative to me...--[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 21:57, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
(<--)
Yah, right. [http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/abramoff_report_1.html][http://www.noagenda.org/connections/jack_abramoff/] Abramoff contributions to individual Democrats 1990-2006; need contribs to Democratic oraginizations, too?

*Patty Murray (D-Wash) - $40,980
*Charles B. Rangel (D-NY) - $32,000
*Patrick J. Kennedy (D-RI) - $31,000
*Harry Reid (D-Nev) - $30,500
*Byron L. Dorgan (D-ND) - $28,000
*Tom Daschle (D-SD) - $26,500
*Brad R. Carson (D-Okla) - $18,300
*Chris John (D-La) - $15,000
*Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) - $14,500
*John Breaux (D-La) - $13,750
*Mary L. Landrieu (D-La) - $11,500
*Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md) - $11,000
*Dale E. Kildee (D-Mich) - $10,500
*Barney Frank (D-Mass) - $9,000
*Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo) - $9,000
*Max Baucus (D-Mont) - $9,000
*Peter Deutsch (D-Fla) - $8,500
*Dick Durbin (D-Ill) - $8,000
*Frank Pallone, Jr (D-NJ) - $6,000
*Nick Rahall (D-WVa) - $6,000
*Jon S. Corzine (D-NJ) - $5,000
*Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - $5,000
*Barbara A. Mikulski (D-Md) - $5,000
*Daniel K. Inouye (D-Hawaii) - $5,000
*Deborah Ann Stabenow (D-Mich) - $5,000
*Xavier Becerra (D-Calif) - $4,523
*Tim Johnson (D-SD) - $4,250
*Kent Conrad (D-ND) - $4,000
*Maria Cantwell (D-Wash) - $3,000
*Kalyn Cherie Free (D-Okla) - $3,000
*Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif) - $3,000
*Richard M. Romero (D-NM) - $3,000
*Ed Pastor (D-Ariz) - $3,000
*John B. Larson (D-Conn) - $3,000
*James L. Oberstar (D-Minn) - $3,000
*Brad Sherman (D-Calif) - $3,000
*Earl Pomeroy (D-ND) - $2,500
*Max Cleland (D-Ga) - $2,500
*Gene Taylor (D-Miss) - $2,250
*Doug Dodd (D-Okla) - $2,000
*Jay Inslee (D-Wash) - $2,000
*John D. Dingell (D-Mich) - $2,000
*Joe Baca (D-Calif) - $2,000
*Carl Levin (D-Mich) - $2,000
*C. L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho) - $2,000
*Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark) - $2,000
*Bennie G. Thompson (D-Miss) - $2,000
*Robert Menendez (D-NJ) - $2,000
*Robert T. Matsui (D-Calif) - $2,000
*Rodney Alexander (D-La) - $2,000
*Sander Levin (D-Mich) - $2,000
*Ron Kind (D-Wis) - $2,000
*Ronnie Shows (D-Miss) - $2,000
*Rosa L. DeLauro (D-Conn) - $2,000
*Willie Landry Mount (D-La) - $2,000
*Tom Carper (D-Del) - $2,000
*Thomas P. Keefe Jr. (D-Wash) - $2,000
*Nita M. Lowey (D-NY) - $2,000
*Maxine Waters (D-Calif) - $2,000
*Ned Doucet (D-La) - $2,000
*John Neely Kennedy (D-La) - $2,000
*Lane Evans (D-Ill) - $2,000
*Norm Dicks (D-Wash) - $1,500
*Rick Weiland (D-SD) - $1,000
*Ron Wyden (D-Ore) - $1,000
*Tim Holden (D-Pa) - $1,000
*William J. Jefferson (D-La) - $1,000
*Patrick Leahy (D-Vt) - $1,000
*Paul Wellstone (D-Minn) - $1,000
*Pete Stark (D-Calif) - $1,000
*Peter DeFazio (D-Ore) - $1,000
*Mike Thompson (D-Calif) - $1,000
*David Phelps (D-Ill) - $1,000
*Derrick B. Watchman (D-Ariz) - $1,000
*Charles S. Robb (D-Va) - $1,000
*Bill Luther (D-Minn) - $1,000
*Barbara Boxer (D-Calif) - $1,000
*Brian David Schweitzer (D-Mont) - $1,000
*Charles J. Melancon (D-La) - $1,000
*Eliot L. Engel (D-NY) - $1,000
*Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif) - $1,000
*Gloria Tristani (D-NM) - $1,000
*Grace Napolitano (D-Calif) - $1,000
*Joe Lieberman (D-Conn) - $1,000
*Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif) - $1,000
*Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) - $1,000
*Henry Cuellar (D-Texas) - $500
*John Kerry (D-Mass) - $500
*Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif) - $500
*Shelley Berkley (D-Nev) - $500

[[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:16, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

::: ...can you give us the Republican list :-) ? -'''Speak[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:SpeakerOfTheDead er]''' 23:50, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

*Ah, deceit...Yes, Abramoff's ''clients'' gave money to Democrats, but Jack ''personally'' gave '''only''' to Republicans or Republican PACs. And, while Abramoff's clients gave to Dems, they gave far more to Republicans (which was his clients' opposite pattern from their pre-Abramoff donations, strongly suggesting that Abramoff steered money away from Dems and toward Republicans). --[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 23:54, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

That would be incorrect. Jack never gave his "own" money, any more than I do. As George Wallace said long ago, in one of the few honest and correct statements he ever made: "In Washington, there isn't a dimes worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats". --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 00:00, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

:Try here: http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search.asp?key=HK6HE&txtName=Abramoff,%20Jack&txtState=(all%20states)&txtAll=Y&Order=N
--[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 00:13, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

: Unfortunately, that link likely won't work very long -- the 'key' bit is a captcha.
::Nice job - though, is there any chance the list below can be sorted by amount, rather than alphabetically, like the list above? [[User:Human|Human]] 13:34, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

A summary:
* Abraham, Spencer: $2000
* Aderholt, Robert: $250
* Alby, Barbara: $1000
* Allen, George: $1000
* American Liberty PAC: $2500
* Americans for a Republican Majority: $22500
* Armey, Dick: $500
* Ashcroft, John: $1000
* Battle Born PAC: $1000
* Bond, Christopher S 'Kit': $1500
* Bordonaro, Molly H: $500
* Bordonaro, Tom: $2000
* Brooks, Susan: $1000
* Brownback, Sam: $500
* Bunning, Jim: $1000
* Burton, Dan: $4000
* Bush, George W: $3000
* Cannon, Chris: $2000
* Cantor, Eric: $5000
* Chambliss, Saxby: $1000
* Chenoweth, Helen: $2000
* Christensen, Jon: $250
* Chrysler, Dick: $250
* Coburn, Tom: $250
* Cochran, Thad: $1000
* Cornyn, John: $1000
* Cox, Christopher: $250
* Crane, Philip M: $2000
* Cremeans, Frank A: $250
* Cubin, Barbara: $250
* Davis, Tom: $500
* DeLay, Tom: $10000
* Dole, Elizabeth: $1000
* Doolittle, John T: $4000
* Dunn, Jennifer: $1000
* Ehrlich, Bob: $500
* Emerson, Mark: $500
* English, Phil: $1000
* Ensign, John: $4000
* Enzi, Mike: $1000
* Faircloth, Lauch: $1500
* Ferguson, Mike: $1000
* First Freedoms Fund: $5000
* Flotron, Francis E: $1000
* Forbes, J Randy: $1000
* Friends of the Big Sky: $5000
* Fund for a Free Market America: $2500
* Funderburk, David: $1000
* Gerow, Charles R: $500
* Gingrey, Phil: $500
* Gormley, William L: $1000
* Gramm, Phil: $1000
* Grant, Carolyn W: $1000
* Grassley, Chuck: $2000
* Gutknecht, Gil: $250
* Hastings, Richard "Doc": $500
* Hawkeye PAC: $5000
* Hayworth, J D: $1250
* Hill, Rick: $250
* Hilleary, Van: $1750
* Hofmeister, Gary A: $1000
* Hutchinson, Tim: $2000
* Hutchison, Claude B Jr: $1000
* Inhofe, James M: $1000
* Isakson, Johnny: $2000
* Istook, Ernest J: $1000
* Janklow, Bill: $250
* Jones, Walter B Jr: $1250
* Kaloi, Kimo: $1000
* Keep Our Majority PAC: $2500
* Keller, Ric: $1000
* Kingston, Jack: $1000
* Largent, Steve: $250
* Latham, Tom: $1000
* Lazio, Rick A: $250
* Leadership PAC 2004: $2000
* Lefever, Tim: $500
* LoBiondo, Frank A: $1000
* McCollum, Bill: $1000
* Metcalf, Jack: $250
* Mitnick, John: $250
* Monday Morning PAC: $2000
* Morella, Connie: $1000
* Nethercutt, George: $500
* Nethercutt, George R Jr: $1000
* New Jersey Republican State Cmte: $5000
* Ney, Bob: $2250
* North Carolina Republican Executive Cmte: $5000
* North, Oliver: $1000
* Ose, Doug: $1000
* Otter, C L 'Butch': $1000
* Paul, Ron: $250
* Perry, Brent: $250
* Phillips, Howard: $500
* Pickering, Charles "Chip" Jr: $3500
* Pirozzi, Elia Vincent: $1000
* Pitts, Joe: $894
* Pombo, Richard: $2000
* Pombo, Richard W: $500
* Preston, Gates et al: $5500
* Regula, Ralph: $1000
* Rehberg, Denny: $2000
* Rely on Your Beliefs: $8500
* Republican Majority Fund: $5000
* Rich PAC: $5000
* Riley, Bob: $1000
* Rohrabacher, Dana: $7500
* Royce, Ed: $500
* Ryan, Paul: $949
* Ryun, Jim: $250
* Saxton, Jim: $0
* Scarborough, Joe: $1000
* Senate Victory Fund: $7000
* Shelby, Richard C: $1000
* Simmons, Rob: $1250
* Simpson, Mike: $1000
* Smith, Bob: $4920
* Smith, Gordon: $250
* Smith, Gordon H: $3000
* Snowbarger, Vince: $250
* Specter, Arlen: $2000
* Stevens, Ted: $1000
* Stockman, Steve: $500
* Sununu, John E: $250
* Susan B Anthony List: $1000
* Talent, James M: $2000
* Tate, Randy: $1000
* Taylor, Charles H: $2250
* Teague, Edward B: $250
* Team PAC: $1000
* Terrell, Suzanne: $3000
* Thune, John: $1000
* United States Family PAC: $3000
* Watts, J C: $250
* Weldon, Curt: $1000
* Weller, Jerry: $500
* Wicker, Roger: $250
* Wilson, Heather: $1000
* Wittig, Suzanne Dear: $250
* Young Jewish Leadership PAC: $985
* Young, Tom: $500
--[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 00:36, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

===Further Abramoff comments===

So - it's agreed, everyone thinks Abramoff was a stinker, so ''why not put his deceit in the article''? [[User:Human|Human]] 00:34, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

:Because you are going to have a difficult time assigning partisan motves to the man. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 00:41, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

::Exactly so. One can ascribe political motives to him. Business motives. The press makes up the partisan deal, because everyone loves to embarass someone. Business has no politics other than making more $$. --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 00:52, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

::There's no need for a partisan motive. Just a description of his deceit and how it was "bad". [[User:Human|Human]] 13:34, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Hmm. You know, I think I'll agree with RobS here--Abramoff(& Co.) wasn't deceitful so much as corrupt/crooked, which is a different issue. --[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 20:54, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Is not that the point of the article? Corrupt/crooked, deceiving in order to gain? [[User:Human|Human]] 21:17, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

::: Abramoff wasn't a conservative. Not at all. Also, I'm not sure how Abramoff was strikingly ''deceitful''. Does anyone know to what crimes he pled guilty? Was fraud one of them?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:34, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

:::: As a matter of fact, yes, it was. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 00:36, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

**Please, Andy--regardless whether Abramoff was deceitful or just crooked, it's ridiculous to say that he was "not at all" a conservative. As I said above, he was a director of the National Center for Public Policy Research (a conservative think tank); he was College Republican National Committee National Chairman; he has longstanding ties to Grover Norquist and Ralph Reed, among others; he was a member of Citizens for America, a pro-Reagan group that helped Oliver North build support for the Nicaraguan contras; when Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds LLP,a lobbying firm, needed a "conservative, Christian Coalition Republican with strong ties to...Republican leadership", they hired Abramoff; he was a member of GWB's transition team in 2001. And so forth. If he wasn't a conservative, he certainly did a great job of pretending to be one.--[[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]] 19:39, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

== Nixon (Richard M.) ==

TK just deleted this addition wthout explanation:

:November 17, 1973, Declaring that "I am not a crook," President [[Richard Nixon]] vigorously defended his record in the [[Watergate]] case and said he had never profited from his public service. "I have earned every cent. And in all of my years of public life I have never obstructed justice," Mr. Nixon said.<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/articles/111873-1.htm Watergate Files]</ref>

Nixon almost destroyed the presidency with his deceit on this issue. And yet, a Larry King misquote, presented as a question, is still included? [[User:Human|Human]] 20:53, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

*Sorry! Must have been an edit conflict! Please don't be so suspicious, and try contacting a guy, okay? I haven't blocked a user for contacting me in at least a week! --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 23:27, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

: Conservatives abandoned Nixon by late 1971, well before Watergate occurred, I think. Nixon's fall was just another example of a politician being brought down, for which there are hundreds of examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:37, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
::So why not include him? This is not an exercise in conservative-bashing - it's more an attempt to show that not only avowed "liberals" practice deceit upon occasion. And, well, deservedly, get abandoned by conservatives? Anyway, Nixon, was, ironically, the last great liberal President anyway. Wage and price controls? No wonder Cons. abandoned him! EPA, oh, I forget he other big liberal thing he did right now. But you know. [[User:Human|Human]] 22:34, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

: Well, the other problem is that Nixon's crime was not really "deceit". It was a burglary and cover-up. That's not what most people mean by deceit, and it's not similar to other entries. If Nixon is to be added, then Ted Kennedy would be added first.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:25, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

:::So, add them both. I am as embarrassed by [[Chappaquidick]] as you must be by Watergate? [[User:Human|Human]] 00:42, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

::Um, Er, Well, "Cover-up" does tend to involve deceit. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] 23:39, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

::: Well, yes, armed robbery by a masked gunman also involves deceit. So does terrorism, in fact. Will people be proposing that we list Bin Laden too? No, that's not what this entry is about. Neither is burglary and denial what this entry is about. The listed examples are what we have in mind here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:43, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

::::Did Bin Laden engage in deceit? Or was he "honest" in his terrorist tactics/goals? Get real with this articvle, before Das Talk, or whatever, mocks it! [[User:Human|Human]] 00:19, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

The "I am not a crook" quotation has '''''absolutely nothing''''' to do with Watergate. In fact, Wikipedia & Wikiquote actually have this correct (last time I looked). And it is only after a lengthy discussion & edit war with User:Will Beback did he finally admit my sourcing in this quote was accurate. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 21:03, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

== TIME FOR A REALITY CHECK!! ==

Human, the crap by Nixon WAS RESTORED, by me, YESTERDAY! Right after you called my attention to the edit conflict. Jeeze....--[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 22:55, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
:Yes, I saw, and I think I said so, somewhere... Sorry if I didn't say so in the right place at the right time. Thank you, and duly noted, your honesty in this matter. [[User:Human|Human]] 00:21, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

:: And then it was removed again, thus the renewed discussion. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 00:36, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

::: I deleted it. Clinton, who was impeached, along with many other politicians would need to inserted before Nixon. Nixon's offense was not really "deceit" any more than a masked bank robber's crime would be "deceit".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:40, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Truth is, the misuse of the phrase "I am not a crook", to make Nixon say something he never said, is an example of the deceit of the liberal media. No one ever accused Nixon stealing anything in the Watergate affair. Yet that is what this quote implies. It refers to questions regarding Nixon's personal finances and tax returns--a subject which has nothing to do with Watergate. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 21:24, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

== I intend to delete this article and start again ==

This article is a mess.

It ought to be a legal article and nothing more.

The concept of deceit outside of law is really just a matter for a dictionary definition. This is not a dictionary.

As for the examples, they appear to be mere excuses for people to push their own world-views.

Any objections to my deleting and starting again? --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 22:27, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
:Deceit doesn't exist in morality, the stuff parents teach their kids not to do? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:45, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
:: I have no problem with parents teaching their children not to deceive. I teach my own children that very lesson. But that is not a justification for retaining this poor quality article.

:: What particular aspects of the article do you say ought be retained? Or are you suggesting material for a new article? --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 22:56, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
:::The article states what it is and gives a few well known examples. What's wrong with that? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:03, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
:::: As I explained above, the definition of deceit (other, perhaps than the legal definition) is a matter for a dictionary. Further, the examples are a mere excuse for people to push particular barrows. Examples of deceit are, by their very nature, contentious and have no place in an encyclopedia.
:::: Do you suggest the retention of any particular parts of the article or have any suggestions for the new article? --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 23:12, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
:::::I thought it covers the basic elements pretty good. Of course we could always use other good examples, too. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:40, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
:::::: Well, I'm sure you'll like the new version that I'm working on even better! --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 23:49, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

==Ward Churchill==

I'd be willing to find another source for it (it was widely reported in the news and that site was just the first thing I found), but I'm not sure how this doesn't fit in with the theme of the article. If not, that's fine, but I'm just asking. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 00:14, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

: I'm indifferent to this. If there are better cites that really prove the deceit, then let's consider it. My only concern is that the other listed items are deceits against the public, while this Churchill incident seems to be a private matter. Also, in most of the other cases people embraced the deceit even knowing it was a lie. I don't want to dilute the great examples we have with less significant examples. Thanks and Godspeed to your fine efforts, Dan.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:22, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

::That's fine with me. I was just wondering.

I will work on the article on Churchill himself, as I know that he is very influential among the left (I noticed my roommate my freshman year, who is involved in liberal activism, had been reading him). [[User:DanH|DanH]] 00:24, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:I take it Andy, from reading this thread that you have not noticed my post above. As you can see I have proposed deletion and replacement of the current article (for the reasons stated). I trust you will like the new version. Should be ready soon. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 00:29, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:: I read your comments, Horace. There is nothing about this entry that should be deleted. The examples are striking, factual, and highly informative. In most of the examples, there was public deceit followed by liberal support of the deceit. This is precisely the kind of information that Conservative is going to provide, without the censorship common on Wikipedia. Feel free to add similar examples of public deceit followed by support of the deceit. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:32, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
::: OK. Done. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 00:42, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
::: Oop. You reverted the edit. Too controversial? I thought we didn't censor. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 00:50, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Horace, your "example" did not involve any admission of deceit, any charges of deceit, or any embrace of any deceit. Moreover, appeal of this opinion and the dictum was prevented, so it was never reviewed and tested independently. Your example is nothing like the other listed examples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:54, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
::: Ho ho ho. Surely you jest! Example 2 contains no admission and no charges (I am not sure what an embrace is in this context - is it different to an admission?). Example 4 is the same (I also note that it is completely unsourced). What is more I regard it as quite astounding that you could assert that a matter which has been tested in court has not been "reviewed and tested independently". So much for the American judicial system!
::: My example was better than most of the current examples in the article. It had it all! Deceit (in the witness box no less) followed by cover up (by this very institution - what better way to demonstrate your non-bias then to report it?) and, to top it all, the matter had been subject to judicial assessment.
::: I guess that means you were right all along. My example was nothing like the other examples. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 01:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

*One day you will indeed go too far. You do know that, right? --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 01:24, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:: I just call them as I see them Terrence. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 01:27, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

: Horace, the right to appeal is a basic due process right. The persons you accuse of deceit did not have that right. Moreover, the persons you accuse of deceit did obtain anything of value for their conduct either. Nor did anyone embrace the alleged deceit.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:30, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

::*A small amount of tact and civility go much further than doing that (calling them as you see them) 100% of the time, no? I just cannot get over the bitterness of some, I sense a real anger by some for being at a place voluntarily, that they knew was Conservative from the beginning. --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 01:33, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
::: Andrew, my point was that, '''unlike some of the examples actually in the article right now''', the persons who were said to have committed the deceit in my example were adjudged to have done so by a court of law. They at least had the advantage of (what I had always assumed was) a fair hearing by a properly constituted court. What is the relevance of what they received for their lies? I imagine that they thought they would get their reward in heaven. They probably still do.

::: Terrence, I contain no bitterness. I just do not like to see conservatism or this site being sullied by unencyclopedic articles. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 01:40, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

::: P.S. Andrew, I see you have now added to example 2. That's great but it doesn't really excuse your '''censoring''' of my example, does it? --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 01:45, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:: I merely inserted material from our entry on the subject, which you seemed to deny. As to your claim of a court of law, there were no charges ever brought against the witnesses so your allusion to "a fair hearing" is inapplicable. Also, you continue to overlook that that no appeal was allowed of the opinion. Note also that the witnesses obtained no personal benefit from their alleged deceit.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:55, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

::: It still rather leaves Mr. Freud out in the cold, doesn't it?

::: Sorry, you'll have to explain what you mean when you say that no appeal was allowed. Do you mean that the court refused a leave application? If so, so what? It happens all the time.

::: I have already dealt with your point about personal benefit to the witnesses.

::: I never suggested that there were charges against the witnesses. The court just found that they lied. It's pretty simple. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 02:18, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

== Freud Evidence ==

The following statement...
* [[Sigmund Freud]] lied about his research<ref> The main source for this is Coffi, F., 1996, Freud and the Question of Pseudoscience , discussed at: https://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=167&sortorder=authorlast</ref> in order to make it falsely appear that his psychoanalysis had some benefit <ref> However, other writers take issue with this statement. There appears to be debate as to whether results were fabricated through either a feature of, or a flaw in, the psychoanalytic process see: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v22/n08/borc01_.html</ref>. Yet [[liberals]] continue to teach in school that Freud was a great scientist.

...given the references cited, now seems itself to be a candidate for the article. [[user:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]]

: I don't follow your point here. Are you suggesting the addition of citations, or are you denying that Freud lied? Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:45, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:: I noted that a number of people had asked for citations for this, what seems to be quite contentious point. Please let me stress I know absolutely nothing about Psychoanalysis; hjowever, I have found what seems to be the reference that the original author (whoever it was, probably lost in the mists of time) did not supply, i.e. Coffi. From what I have read, Coffi contends that Freud did not so much '''deliberately''' lie as fabricate according to his mindset; in that way, it is a failing in Frued's psychoanalytic process, and the claims Freud made for it, and opens the process up to the accusations of being a pseudoscience and Freud to the accusation of being a quack. The second citation actually addresses this point of view and contends that this sort of result is inevitable from the psychoanalytic process, in that patient and analyist must necessarily come to a shared understanding, which must, by any dialogic process, be fabricated. In other words, whether or not the result of the analysis yields truths or not cannot be easily determined; it might be that an analyst is genuinely uncovering meaning, but on the other hand, he and the patient might be making it all up, and no-one, not even the participants can say for certain. My point in all this, is that given the quagmire that this seems to lay before us, to make a claim that Freud was lying, is at best oversimplistic, and at worst is simply untrue, as there is no evidence that Freud '''deliberately''' lied. This means that it does not actually belong in an article on deceit, and trying to claim that it does when there is no evidence to support it, could well itself be deceitful. --[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 10:00, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

This critics has been refered to many times in Finland: Richard Webster: Why Freud was Wrong. Sin, Science and Psychoanalysis. Harper Collins London 1996. I don't know about contents, but does it have good arguments? --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 10:31, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

What about this: Robyn M. Dawes. 1994. House of Cards: Psychology and Psychotherapy Build on Myth, New York: The Free Press. Said to have proven psychoanalysis has no proven effect. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 11:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

== Freud was fraud? ==

Is it only "liberals" who are beleaving Freud was a great scientist (and psychoanalysis good science)? In Europe and Finland there seems to be also others beleaving to him. And now also scientific sceptics are starting to critisize Freud, not only conservatives. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 11:27, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:I am no advocate of Freud, and if you note above, I am the one who supplied the reference which is not being used selectively in the article to support the contention that Freud lied. The point is well made above that this may be oversimplistic, or itself a dishonest way of looking at the evidence. It appears (I have now done some more reading) that there is a recognised danger in psych. of the doctor starting off with preconceived notions and fitting the evidence to those theories. Unfortunately we ALL do this; it's a way of life, and it's part of the human condition. This is why there are heated debates on CP from both sides, intransigent - people as Paul Simon once remarked "... a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". My point is this: it is so embedded in the human psyche to do this, that we cannot speak of it as deceit, or if it is, then we need to expand the article to discuss it more fully. From what I have read, I do not believe that Freud was deceitful. Misguided, a poor scientist, maybe, but deceitful, no. If you want to label him as a liar and a rogue who deliberately set out to devceive people, then I think that you ought to use the same criteria that you would need if he were still alive, i.e. that if you were to say these things, you had better have some good evidence to back your statements or have a damn good lawyer who could fend off the inevitable lawsuit which will follow. On the evidence that you have presented you could expect that Freud would slap a lawsuit for libel on you --[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 12:28, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

==10 Commandments==
I don't think the reference about removing the 10 Commandments from schools really shows that you're going for. The decision was to remove any physical depiction of the 10 Commandments, which has nothing to do with whether morals are taught in schools. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 12:20, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

: "Nothing to do with morals are taught in schools"? You can't be serious. That's like saying "2+2=4" has nothing with whether "2+3=5". If the Ten Commandments can't be on the wall, then they can't be taught for [[normative]] purposes in textbooks either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:22, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

<references/>

== contradiction in the definition ==

I am not sure why I am getting involved with this, but here goes:

* " Deceit is the fraudulent representation of a material fact, made intentionally or recklessly or without reasonable basis and with the intent to induce reliance on the falsehood".
* "Traditionally deceit was taught as being wrong and in violation of the Ten Commandments" -"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor".

The logic implied therefore is that'''all deceit'' is prohibited by the 10 commandments.

However, bearing "false witness against a neighbour" is not the same as "fraudulent misrepresentation of a material fact", and does not encompass all the things that the latter could possible include. For example, claiming that you have a PhD when you do not have one is clearly deceit, but I cannot find anything in the 10 commandments that tells me I should not do it. I am not stealing; I am not bearing false witness against a neighbour. Am I coveting? I don't think so. As far as the ten commandments is concerned, I can get away with it.

Under these circumstances, the statement concerning the 10C needs to be amended to say:
"Deceit has traditionally been viwed as being morally wrong and in many respects it is in violation of the Ten Commandments, especially those deceits which involve harm or malpractice to another person" --[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 16:30, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:Sometimes deceit can also be stealing - if you are trying to get advantages by deceiving. For example that kind of telling you have a PhD can have this kind of wrong motive. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 17:36, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Most crimes entail deceit, but the point here is when deceit is the primary wrongdoing.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:53, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:::You seem to be missing the point. I am not saying deceit is right, far from it. I am saying that the statement that "deceit is ... in violation of the Ten Commandments" is not correct, as some deceits are NOT in violation of any of the 10 commandments.--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 18:23, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Sean, I thought I made the change you requested. Sure, some deceits are justified, just as self-defense can justify killing in rare circumstances. But the statement is correct, that deceit has traditionally been taught as being wrong under the Ten Commandments.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:24, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Apologies, had missed that in the article, I was still responding to the stuff on the talk pages. Thank You. I shall now go back to what I know best.--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 18:37, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Factor

2007-05-14T22:34:44Z

SeanTheSheep:

A '''factor''' is an [[integer]] that evenly divides another integer. For example, 3 is a factor of 24 because 24 divided by 3 does not leave a remainder. 5 is not a factor of 24.

Factors are sometimes called '''divisors''' to distinguish them from '''prime factors'''. A prime factor is a divisor that is a [[prime number]]. 2 and 3 are prime factors of 24. 6 is not a prime factor because it is a [[composite number]].

The expression of an integer as a product of its prime factors is called a '''prime factorization'''. The prime factorization of 24 is

:<math>24 = 2 * 2 * 2 * 3 </math>

which is also written

:<math>24 = 2^3 * 3</math>.

The Prime Factorisation Theorem guarantees that every integer has one unique prime factorization, e.g. 24 =2331, though it may have multiple non-prime factorizations (e.g. 24 = 2 * 12, 6 * 4, 3 * 8).

The number of divisors of an integer may be determined from its prime factorization when expressed in exponent form, by incrementing each exponent by 1 and multiplying the results. In the example above, the exponents of prime factors 2 and 3 are 3 and 1, respectively. The number of divisors of 24 is therefore

:<math>(3 + 1) * (1 + 1) = 8</math>

and they are 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, and 24.

Regular polygon

2007-05-14T22:25:31Z

SeanTheSheep: /* Construction of Regular Polygons */

[[Image:PentagonConstruction.jpg|thumb|right|450px|A rather interesting straightedge-and-compass construction of a regular pentagon (shown in yellow)]]

A '''regular polygon''' is a [[polygon]] where all the [[side]]s and included [[angle]]s are [[equal]]. Examples include the [[equilateral triangle]] and the [[square]].

===Construction of Regular Polygons===

The problem of which regular polygons can be constructed by ruler and compass alone goes back to the [[Ancient Greece|ancient Greeks]]. Some regular polygons (e.g. a regular [[pentagon]]) can be constructed with a straightedge (without any markings) and compass, others cannot. [[Gauss| Carl Friedrich Gauss]] made the first new progress on the problem when he constructed the regular 17-gon in 1796. He later showed that a regular n-sided polygon can be constructed with ruler and compass if the odd prime factors of n are distinct [[Pierre de Fermat|Fermat]] primes <ref>This result is recorded in Section VII of Gauss's Disquisitiones Arithemeticae published in 1801. Gauss conjectured that this condition was also necessary, but he offered no proof of this fact, which was proved by Pierre Wantzel in 1837 </ref>.

In order to explain Gauss's Theorem, we need to understand about Fermat numbers, which are defined as numbers of the form 22n+1,

where n is natural number or zero. The first 5 Fermat numbers are: 3, 5, 17, 257, 65537 <ref> Note that all of these are prime and Fermat conjectured in 1640 that all the Fermat numbers are prime. Rather surprisingly it wasn't until 1732 that Euler pointed out that the next Fermat number 4294967297 is not prime. It is divisible by 641. In fact the first 5 are the only know prime Fermat numbers and it seems reasonable that there are no others</ref>.

Gauss' Theorem on the constructibility of regular polygons says that a regular n-gon is constructible by straightedge and compass alone if and only if n = 2kp1...pt , where k and t are nonnegative integers and pi are distinct prime Fermat numbers.

By this theorem, we can construct all of the first 8 regular polygons from an [[equilateral triangle]] up to a [[decagon]], with the exception of a [[heptagon]]. As 7 is not a Fermat prime nor has it any factors which are Fermat primes, a regular heptagon therefore cannot be constructed by straightedge and compass alone.

The construction of the regular 17-sided polygon is an inscription on Gauss' tomb.

===Notes===

<references/>

[[Category:Geometry]]

Talk:Deceit

2007-05-14T22:23:08Z

SeanTheSheep: /* contradiction in the definition */

Pierre de Fermat

2007-05-14T20:46:44Z

SeanTheSheep: fix errors

[[Image:Pierre de Fermat.jpg|thumb|right|Pierre de Fermat]]

Frenchman '''Pierre de Fermat''' (1601–1665) was one of the two leading mathematicians of the early 1600s, the other being [[Rene Descartes]]. Fermat was a founder of the modern theory of numbers, discovered the fundamental principle of analytic geometry (independent of Descartes' work) and helped found the theory of probability (with [[Blaise Pascal]]). By trade Fermat was a lawyer.

Fermat's most famous equation is [[Fermat's Last Theorem]], which was not proven until American mathematician Andrew Wiles published his proof in 1993. Wiles was born an Englishman, but was awarded US citzenship for solving Fermat's equation.

A Fermat number is a positive integer of the form

Fn = 22n + 1

where n is a nonnegative integer.

The first eight Fermat numbers are

* F0 = 21 + 1 = 3
* F1= 22 + 1 = 5
* F2= 24 + 1 = 17
* F3 = 28 + 1 = 257
* F4 = 216 + 1 = 65537

As of 2007, only the first 12 Fermat numbers have been completely factored see: http://www.prothsearch.net/fermat.html.

[[Category:Mathematicians|Fermat, Pierre de]]

Pierre de Fermat

2007-05-14T20:45:54Z

SeanTheSheep:

[[Image:Pierre de Fermat.jpg|thumb|right|Pierre de Fermat]]

Frenchman '''Pierre de Fermat''' (1601–1665) was one of the two leading mathematicians of the early 1600s, the other being [[Rene Descartes]]. Fermat was a founder of the modern theory of numbers, discovered the fundamental principle of analytic geometry (independent of Descartes' work) and helped found the theory of probability (with [[Blaise Pascal]]). By trade Fermat was a lawyer.

Fermat's most famous equation is [[Fermat's Last Theorem]], which was not proven until American mathematician Andrew Wiles published his proof in 1993. Wiles was born an Englishman, but was awarded US citzenship for solving Fermat's equation.

A Fermat number is a positive integer of the form

Fn = 22n + 1

where n is a nonnegative integer.

The first eight Fermat numbers are

* Fn = 21 + 1 = 3
* Fn= 22 + 1 = 5
* Fn= 24 + 1 = 17
* Fn = 28 + 1 = 257
* Fn = 216 + 1 = 65537

As of 2007, only the first 12 Fermat numbers have been completely factored see: http://www.prothsearch.net/fermat.html.

[[Category:Mathematicians|Fermat, Pierre de]]

Pierre de Fermat

2007-05-14T20:45:39Z

SeanTheSheep:

[[Image:Pierre de Fermat.jpg|thumb|right|Pierre de Fermat]]

Frenchman '''Pierre de Fermat''' (1601–1665) was one of the two leading mathematicians of the early 1600s, the other being [[Rene Descartes]]. Fermat was a founder of the modern theory of numbers, discovered the fundamental principle of analytic geometry (independent of Descartes' work) and helped found the theory of probability (with [[Blaise Pascal]]). By trade Fermat was a lawyer.

Fermat's most famous equation is [[Fermat's Last Theorem]], which was not proven until American mathematician Andrew Wiles published his proof in 1993. Wiles was born an Englishman, but was awarded US citzenship for solving Fermat's equation.

A Fermat number is a positive integer of the form

Fn = 22n + 1

where n is a nonnegative integer.

The first eight Fermat numbers are

* Fn = 21 + 1 = 3
* Fn= 22 + 1 = 5
* Fn= 24 + 1 = 17
* Fn = 28 + 1 = 257
* Fn = 216 + 1 = 65537

As of 2007, only the first 12 Fermat numbers have been completely factored see: http://www.prothsearch.net/fermat.html.

[[Category:Mathematicians|Fermat, Pierre de]]