Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Earth

2007-04-05T06:09:32Z

Orlenzia: /* My edits and Orlenzia's comments */

==U. S. Customary units==
I don't know what Conservapedia's policy on units and dimensions is, but taking the lead from the "American" spelling policy, I have used U. S. Customary units rather than SI ("metric system") units throughout this article.

But please discuss, as SI units are more appropriate for scientific articles. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:54, 28 February 2007 (EST)

: To be blunt, using miles to describe distances in space is almost painful. However, it might make sense if the audience is mainly American to use both, maybe with a slash, or put the English unit in parentheses or brackets. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 20:41, 28 February 2007 (EST)

::Why is measuring space in the paces of a Roman soldier any more painful that measuring it in terms of two scratches in a platinum-iridium bar at Bureau Internationale de Poids et Mesures? (Yesyesyes I ''know'' it's really the distance light travels in 1/299142857.142857 seconds...)

::If inches, slugs, and poundals are good enough for the NASA Mars Climate Orbiter, they're good enough for me! [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 22:06, 28 February 2007 (EST)

::::('''Note''' for people who don't get my nerdy joke... either because it's obscure or because it's not actually funny... slugs and poundals are now-''very''-rarely-used English-based units of mass and force that were once taught to, maybe even used by engineers. The NASA Mars Climate Orbiter was an expensive space probe that crashed on Mars because some of the computer subsystems in it used U. S. Customary units and others used metric units and the software didn't convert properly... or something like that... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:50, 1 March 2007 (EST))

::: Well, it creates cognitivie dissonance when one talks about science using other units. It is somewhat similar to using SI to talk about halachah rather than using things like the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ke%27zayit Ke'Zayit] (ok, maybe not the best analogy, since everyone agrees on the conversion from SI to English). As for the Mars Climate Orbiter, you do know that that was just the FNORD Illuminati coverup for what really happened to it FNORD ? Joking aside, giving it in English units only just makes headaches for citation issues and forces people to make more conversions when trying to actually use the data. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 22:19, 28 February 2007 (EST)

== I've started a discussion of the metric and "English" question... ==

...one the [[Talk:The_Conservapedia_Commandments#.22Metric.22_vs._.22English.22_units_in_scientific_articles.3F|Conservapedia Commandments talk page.]]

I'd like to know how people want to handle units and dimensions in scientific articles. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:46, 1 March 2007 (EST)

==Explanation of the "trivia"==
I don't object to removing the trivia about "mostly harmless." That was the previous prank content. (I never would have inserted it in a general article about the Earth that I was writing from scratch).
I want to explain ''why'' I left it in.
*I like to "moderate, not obliterate." If someone is trying to make a point that I disagree with, but that is valid in the sense of being a widely held point of view, I may tone down overstatement or remove clearly inaccurate factual material or label it as opinion, but I try not to remove it entirely and I try to be sure that a reader will still understand what point was being made. In this case, I was trying to transmute prank content into valid content, rather than remove it.
*For the benefit of lurking pranksters, I wanted to show that Conservapedia was aware of what they were up to. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:51, 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Protection ==

I am going to similarly object to the protection of this article. Furthermore, you've added in what seems to be an unnecessary point. Since the original article didn't discuss formation issues, it seems to me that you added it in just so you could put the quote in. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:48, 1 March 2007 (EST)

:I do not think protection was necessary here. The article was not vandalised. Joshua simply edited out what he felt was an irrelevant sentence. I am unblocking this article, but before you edit it further, please discuss the changes you plan to make here. ~ [[User:SharonS|SharonS]] 15:11, 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Protection against evolutionist suppression of material - namely JoshuaZ ==

I protected this page. [[User:JoshuaZ]], who I believe is a vociferous evolutionist who supresses [[Young Earth Creationism|young Earth creationist]] material, edited out my material which stated the following: In addition, most scientists also believe believe that the earth formed by natural processes instead of being supernaturally created. However, as one scientist recently noted, “... most every prediction by theorists about planetary formation has been wrong.” [http://creationwiki.org/Astronomy_quotes] I believe this material was reasonable to include and only an unreasonable person would delete it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:00, 1 March 2007 (EST)conservative
*I don't know if protection is necessary against a single user, but due to the contentious nature of this subject, perhaps it would be best if it were protected so that potential edits would have to be discussed first. [[User:Ashens|Ashens]] 21:58 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Age of the Earth ==

I feel that the term "most scientists" is less accurate than "evolutionists" since the first term does not make clear just who believes that the Earth is billions of years old while the second does. The term "evolutionists" also makes it clear just why they believe--in order to make it so there is enough time for macroevolution to happen. Finally, I think the term "most scientists" is biased against creation scientists. Science is not supposed to be a popularity contest, though evolutionists cannot seem to remember that. [[User:Ashens|Ashens]] 20:49 1 March 2007 (EST)
*I see the issue with "most scientists" but I strongly disagree with the characterization "evolutionists." The "modern synthesis" or "Neodarwinism" of the 1950s (associated with George Gaylord Simpson) was partly about bringing the paleontologists on board. Before that time, paleontologists as a group were by no means convinced of Darwinian evolution. However, they certainly were in agreement with geologists about the geological time scale and the general age of the Earth. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:28, 1 March 2007 (EST)
* Agreeing with Dpb, while someone who accepts biological evolution will almost certainly accept the age of the earth, they are not intrinsically connected either through science or theology. For example, Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe minsitries (a prominent Old Earth Creationist ministry) accepts that the earth 4.5 x 10^9 years old but does not accept biological evolution. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 21:37, 1 March 2007 (EST)
**I don't think that bringing Hugh Ross helps your case. He clearly doesn't have Biblical reasons for believing the Earth to be billions of years old, he's simply compromising the clear meaning of Genesis, much like theistic evolutionists (though he obviously doesn't compromise as much as they do). [[User:Ashens|Ashens]] 21:56 1 March 2007 (EST)
*** Whether or not Ross has a biblical basis isn't relevant to the point- accepting evolution is not the same as accepting the age of the earth, and we shouldn't confuse the two (I would incidentally agree that from a purely textual position I find Ross's position to be hard to defend), Also, commenting on "most scientists" actually science is decided by consensus in so far as what opinion has the most people in a given field matters, not in so far as whether they are right in some absolute sense but in so far as it indicates what most of the people who have studied the matter have come to that conclusion. Therefore, unless one spends a massive amount of time studying the matter, one should generally presume that the majority of expert is correct. I'm not arguing that it always is, or even that it is in this case, merely that it is a reasonable presumption in science and that is therefore relevant. (To use an example that may drive it home, if there are 1000 qualified scientists who say Xthe Sun and 1 who says ~X, when deciding policy, we generally presume that the 1000 are likely to be correct about X and will only prepare as a minor eventuallity for ~X). [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 22:21, 1 March 2007 (EST)
*Many young Earth creationist organizations love to quote Barr on that quote, but I don't think Barr was even a Christian from what I've read. I'm not quite comfortable with it being here, particularly because many people who are scientifically convinced that the Earth is old (as I am) may see this and become convinced that Christianity cannot be true. I don't want that. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 17:32, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

== Questionable passage ==

The passage "The fact that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun is taken by many Christians to be evidence of God's existence." is arguing that the anthropomorphic principle is attributed to a higher power. While there is a website that makes this argument, it does not mean that many Christians believe it. The continued debate about the existence of water and possibly ancient life on Mars also undermines this argument. If one was to look at the projected life of the Sun, in about 5 billion years from now it will become a red giant at which time places like Titan may sit in the goldilocks zone for the Sun. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 22:23, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I changed it to acount for your complaint. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 22:27, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Yeah, and it might be better said as "many theists" instead of "many Christians," as I'm pretty sure other religious groups have noticed the distance thing as well. Also, I'm not sure it's exactly accurate to say that the Earth's distance is the reason it's suitable for life, while Venus's closeness and Mars's distance are the reason they're unsuitable. There are also atmospheric properties that account for this--Mars' atmosphere is very thin, so it keeps less heat, while Venus' is thich and heavy, so it keeps much more. It doesn't undermine the argument, but it's reasonable to include it.--[[User:John|John]] 22:31, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I am new to Conservapedia, but am having trouble matching up your Commandments with the lack of evidence in most of the articles. For one, the comment referenced above reading "The fact that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun..." I checked this reference and it's clearly religious propaganda with no kind of reference or proof for this statement. Just because someone out there publishes something on a website does not make it worthy of "'''quoting'''". Most of the articles I've seen on this site have literally NO FACTUAL INFORMATION to back them up. Yet your so-called Commandments require this. From what I can tell, no one here has the right to be critical of Wikipedia... I can understand differing perspectives, but most articles on this site are way off base. And there's the fact that this entire site forgets the fact that America is just one piece of an enormous pie, and Christianity is not the only religion. -- Belaboo, 13 March 2007

== Sun orbiting the Earth ==

Come on people, it clearly states in the bible that the Earth is in a fixed position and the Sun orbits around it. Are you people serious about countering anti-Christian bias, or not? [[User:RonaldReagan|RonaldReagan]] 17:36, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

== Earth image ==

I thought this encyclopedia was supposed to give the American point of view its rightful place. Then why are we barely visible in the pic? Even the moon gets better placement than the USA, lol. [[User:Reggie|Reggie]]

== Creationist Bias ==

I changed this passage:

"Followers in Young Earth creationsim believe in a different set of facts about the Earth. The Bible states in Genesis that the entire earth was formed in six days. Young Earth creationists believe, as Biblical chronology suggests, that the Earth was formed in 4004 B.C. Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, dispite large amounts of evidence backing this theorey.

Some Young Earth Creationists, because they are biblical literalists also dispute the shape of the earth, and the idea that the Earth Rotates around the Sun.[1]"

To try and eliminate the Creationist bias, since it says "Followers in Young Earth creationsim believe in a different set of facts about the Earth." However, there are no sources given (and non in existance) that shows them following facts. They follow beliefs to support their religion, but not facts. It should be changed to "Followers in Young Earth creationsim have a different set of opinions about the Earth."

This:

"Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, dispite large amounts of evidence backing this theorey."

Sounds like scientific journals are attacking Creationism, while they are just following the most common scientific point of view. Also, many spelling errors. If you remove the bias it should read more like "Mainstream scientific journals argue against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, despite biblical sources backing up this theory, because they follow scientific evidence." If you don't remove the bias (which I do not agree with), at least write it like this: "Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, despite large amounts of evidence backing this theory."

Not sure what to do about this:

"Some Young Earth Creationists, because they are biblical literalists also dispute the shape of the earth, and the idea that the Earth Rotates around the Sun.[1]"

But it's been proven that the Earth is round and rotates around the sun.

Oh right, forgot to add, the whole point of this was that I made changes and they were removed, therefore adding bias back into the article. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 18:14, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

ALFa--the article is balanced now. There is a pro-evolution/science earth section and a section on biblical literalism. The science section does not need to be weakened by Bible verses and vica versa (no pun intended!) Both claim to be right, and both offer conflicting opinions. This is the way a fair encyclopedia should deal with these claims. If you don't like Young Earth your free to look at the evidence and make that judgement :)--[[User:CWilson|CWilson]] 18:18, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Well in my opinion, neither should be offered as fact, but as seperate opinions, but if that's how you like it, then that's up to you. Please fix the bad spelling though. ;) --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 18:35, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

== My edits and Orlenzia's comments ==

On my talk page, Orlenzia wrote:
{{quoteBox|As for the Earth article you have changed, without discussion, a consensus document worked on by many editors in the site. If you do this you must first submit your changes or ideas on the talk page, rather than unilaterally deciding to do this. I'm putting it back to the old version again. If you wish to discuss how to make the article better I'd be happy to see you at the talk page.}}
I'll make several points in response:
* It is not necessary to discuss every change before making changes. I made a number of changes, including copyediting, etc. Surely you don't expect me to discuss every such change? In any case, it seems as though you've kept most of my changes, except for the creationist stuff.
* As far as the creationist information concerned, I can see no specific discussion on the information that I removed, so it is misleading at best to say that there was consensus.
* One of the claims that I removed (about the shape of the Earth) was blatantly false. It claimed that some creationists believe that the Earth is flat and has corners, and cited in support an anticreationist source that did not claim that creationists teach that, but that in is opinion, that is what the Bible teaches.
* I also reworded the bit about geocentricism, because it read as though the Bible ''does'' teach geocentricism, instead of simply explaining that ''some'' people believe this.
Unless good reason is offered as to why my edits were incorrect, I will be reinstating them.

[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:42, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Hey Philip. These are good points, and I think you made some good edits. I just remember that there was a lot of frackas about this page on various personal talk pages, and it seemed the old version was a good compromise between YECs and Evolutionists. There were those who felt that the YEC stuff was garbage, and those who thought the science stuff shouldn't be included. It was decided that the Bible would be summarized and the science explained in seperate sections. This seems like a good idea, since both sides get to express their point of view. I'm personally Old Earth creationist, but I think that if YECs want to say the Earth is 6000 years old b/c of a series of "begats" then they should also acknowledge that the Bible teaches geocentricism and Flat Earth (because it really clearly does, although of course that was the normal view when it was written so you can take it as a reflection of the difficulty in literal interpretation) and some of the YECs wanted it there too because it does reflect what the Bible literally says and, surprisingly, what some people still believe. In any case, I think its good for both sides to see the cited sources and biblical passages supporting each of these ideas so they can decide for themselves, and also there will be less further controversy. I had to reregister here so I didn't remember seeing you, much less as a SYSOP, so I thought you were POVing the page! Sorry. What is it you wanted to change, exactly? I think as it is the page does a good job reflecting the Bible and the YEC position (which I am sympathetic to, but obviously you can't take EVERYTHING in the Bible 100% literal.) Anyways, I thought to avoid further fights it was best to let YEC editors have their way with their section. I've thought about adding an OEC section, but don't know what I'd say. I usually just fix errors and such. Maybe this would make a good addition to the article? I just didn't want to start the Earth debate again. It seems like planetary bodies (Earth, Moon) and dinosaurs (and t-rex) are big sources of contention on the site. [[User:Orlenzia|Orlenzia]]

:YECs don't say that the Earth is 6,000 years old ''solely'' on the basis of the chronogenealogies (although they are pretty good evidence in themselves). The case for the Bible teaching geocentricism and a flat Earth is ''much'' weaker (if you can make a case at all), so there is no comparison there. And ''no Christian'', to my knowledge, recognised as a scientist or biblical scholar believes that the Bible teaches a flat Earth. A ''few'' believe that it teaches geocentricism. And I disagree that a flat Earth was the normal view when it was written. Have a look at [[Flat Earth]]. As for not seeing me, I am fairly new, and have just been made a sysop, so your confusion was understandable. As was mine in seeing that you had made only two edits when you appeared to drastically change two articles; if I'd realised that you'd been around longer, I might have taken a closer look before warning you.
:To answer your question, what I want changed is the creation view section, back to what I made it.
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:44, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

::No worries. Nobody on this site trusts anyone else :(. When the argument first came up I thought along the same lines as you, but then I read one of the cited articles: [http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm] and it changed my mind. That is why I think this should stay. The article is really interesting. You should check it out. Very well cited. The conclusion:

::{{quoteBox|"From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone. Their conclusions were dramatically confirmed by the rediscovery of 1 Enoch."}}

::Ironically, it was one of the YECs on this site who insisted on the section being in because it was literal Bible, and then one of the liberals agreed because he thought it put YEC in perspective. My motives are more along the lines of practicality (it seemed agreeable at the time, there haven't been any edits for a while before now) and also because, although I love the Bible, I think it is important to understand that some parts of it, such as these passages and ones on slavery, etc. suggest that the Bible is also a product of the times in many ways, and excessive literalism can be a double edged sword. Are you YEC? A literalist? I'd urge you to read the paper and think about it before changing the article back. But that's just my opinion. Is there any reason you have to disagree with the citation? Any contradictory evidence or citations?[[User:Orlenzia|Orlenzia]]

Talk:Earth

2007-04-05T06:08:48Z

Orlenzia: /* My edits and Orlenzia's comments */

==U. S. Customary units==
I don't know what Conservapedia's policy on units and dimensions is, but taking the lead from the "American" spelling policy, I have used U. S. Customary units rather than SI ("metric system") units throughout this article.

But please discuss, as SI units are more appropriate for scientific articles. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 19:54, 28 February 2007 (EST)

: To be blunt, using miles to describe distances in space is almost painful. However, it might make sense if the audience is mainly American to use both, maybe with a slash, or put the English unit in parentheses or brackets. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 20:41, 28 February 2007 (EST)

::Why is measuring space in the paces of a Roman soldier any more painful that measuring it in terms of two scratches in a platinum-iridium bar at Bureau Internationale de Poids et Mesures? (Yesyesyes I ''know'' it's really the distance light travels in 1/299142857.142857 seconds...)

::If inches, slugs, and poundals are good enough for the NASA Mars Climate Orbiter, they're good enough for me! [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 22:06, 28 February 2007 (EST)

::::('''Note''' for people who don't get my nerdy joke... either because it's obscure or because it's not actually funny... slugs and poundals are now-''very''-rarely-used English-based units of mass and force that were once taught to, maybe even used by engineers. The NASA Mars Climate Orbiter was an expensive space probe that crashed on Mars because some of the computer subsystems in it used U. S. Customary units and others used metric units and the software didn't convert properly... or something like that... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:50, 1 March 2007 (EST))

::: Well, it creates cognitivie dissonance when one talks about science using other units. It is somewhat similar to using SI to talk about halachah rather than using things like the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ke%27zayit Ke'Zayit] (ok, maybe not the best analogy, since everyone agrees on the conversion from SI to English). As for the Mars Climate Orbiter, you do know that that was just the FNORD Illuminati coverup for what really happened to it FNORD ? Joking aside, giving it in English units only just makes headaches for citation issues and forces people to make more conversions when trying to actually use the data. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 22:19, 28 February 2007 (EST)

== I've started a discussion of the metric and "English" question... ==

...one the [[Talk:The_Conservapedia_Commandments#.22Metric.22_vs._.22English.22_units_in_scientific_articles.3F|Conservapedia Commandments talk page.]]

I'd like to know how people want to handle units and dimensions in scientific articles. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 05:46, 1 March 2007 (EST)

==Explanation of the "trivia"==
I don't object to removing the trivia about "mostly harmless." That was the previous prank content. (I never would have inserted it in a general article about the Earth that I was writing from scratch).
I want to explain ''why'' I left it in.
*I like to "moderate, not obliterate." If someone is trying to make a point that I disagree with, but that is valid in the sense of being a widely held point of view, I may tone down overstatement or remove clearly inaccurate factual material or label it as opinion, but I try not to remove it entirely and I try to be sure that a reader will still understand what point was being made. In this case, I was trying to transmute prank content into valid content, rather than remove it.
*For the benefit of lurking pranksters, I wanted to show that Conservapedia was aware of what they were up to. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:51, 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Protection ==

I am going to similarly object to the protection of this article. Furthermore, you've added in what seems to be an unnecessary point. Since the original article didn't discuss formation issues, it seems to me that you added it in just so you could put the quote in. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:48, 1 March 2007 (EST)

:I do not think protection was necessary here. The article was not vandalised. Joshua simply edited out what he felt was an irrelevant sentence. I am unblocking this article, but before you edit it further, please discuss the changes you plan to make here. ~ [[User:SharonS|SharonS]] 15:11, 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Protection against evolutionist suppression of material - namely JoshuaZ ==

I protected this page. [[User:JoshuaZ]], who I believe is a vociferous evolutionist who supresses [[Young Earth Creationism|young Earth creationist]] material, edited out my material which stated the following: In addition, most scientists also believe believe that the earth formed by natural processes instead of being supernaturally created. However, as one scientist recently noted, “... most every prediction by theorists about planetary formation has been wrong.” [http://creationwiki.org/Astronomy_quotes] I believe this material was reasonable to include and only an unreasonable person would delete it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:00, 1 March 2007 (EST)conservative
*I don't know if protection is necessary against a single user, but due to the contentious nature of this subject, perhaps it would be best if it were protected so that potential edits would have to be discussed first. [[User:Ashens|Ashens]] 21:58 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Age of the Earth ==

I feel that the term "most scientists" is less accurate than "evolutionists" since the first term does not make clear just who believes that the Earth is billions of years old while the second does. The term "evolutionists" also makes it clear just why they believe--in order to make it so there is enough time for macroevolution to happen. Finally, I think the term "most scientists" is biased against creation scientists. Science is not supposed to be a popularity contest, though evolutionists cannot seem to remember that. [[User:Ashens|Ashens]] 20:49 1 March 2007 (EST)
*I see the issue with "most scientists" but I strongly disagree with the characterization "evolutionists." The "modern synthesis" or "Neodarwinism" of the 1950s (associated with George Gaylord Simpson) was partly about bringing the paleontologists on board. Before that time, paleontologists as a group were by no means convinced of Darwinian evolution. However, they certainly were in agreement with geologists about the geological time scale and the general age of the Earth. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:28, 1 March 2007 (EST)
* Agreeing with Dpb, while someone who accepts biological evolution will almost certainly accept the age of the earth, they are not intrinsically connected either through science or theology. For example, Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe minsitries (a prominent Old Earth Creationist ministry) accepts that the earth 4.5 x 10^9 years old but does not accept biological evolution. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 21:37, 1 March 2007 (EST)
**I don't think that bringing Hugh Ross helps your case. He clearly doesn't have Biblical reasons for believing the Earth to be billions of years old, he's simply compromising the clear meaning of Genesis, much like theistic evolutionists (though he obviously doesn't compromise as much as they do). [[User:Ashens|Ashens]] 21:56 1 March 2007 (EST)
*** Whether or not Ross has a biblical basis isn't relevant to the point- accepting evolution is not the same as accepting the age of the earth, and we shouldn't confuse the two (I would incidentally agree that from a purely textual position I find Ross's position to be hard to defend), Also, commenting on "most scientists" actually science is decided by consensus in so far as what opinion has the most people in a given field matters, not in so far as whether they are right in some absolute sense but in so far as it indicates what most of the people who have studied the matter have come to that conclusion. Therefore, unless one spends a massive amount of time studying the matter, one should generally presume that the majority of expert is correct. I'm not arguing that it always is, or even that it is in this case, merely that it is a reasonable presumption in science and that is therefore relevant. (To use an example that may drive it home, if there are 1000 qualified scientists who say Xthe Sun and 1 who says ~X, when deciding policy, we generally presume that the 1000 are likely to be correct about X and will only prepare as a minor eventuallity for ~X). [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 22:21, 1 March 2007 (EST)
*Many young Earth creationist organizations love to quote Barr on that quote, but I don't think Barr was even a Christian from what I've read. I'm not quite comfortable with it being here, particularly because many people who are scientifically convinced that the Earth is old (as I am) may see this and become convinced that Christianity cannot be true. I don't want that. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 17:32, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

== Questionable passage ==

The passage "The fact that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun is taken by many Christians to be evidence of God's existence." is arguing that the anthropomorphic principle is attributed to a higher power. While there is a website that makes this argument, it does not mean that many Christians believe it. The continued debate about the existence of water and possibly ancient life on Mars also undermines this argument. If one was to look at the projected life of the Sun, in about 5 billion years from now it will become a red giant at which time places like Titan may sit in the goldilocks zone for the Sun. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 22:23, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I changed it to acount for your complaint. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 22:27, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Yeah, and it might be better said as "many theists" instead of "many Christians," as I'm pretty sure other religious groups have noticed the distance thing as well. Also, I'm not sure it's exactly accurate to say that the Earth's distance is the reason it's suitable for life, while Venus's closeness and Mars's distance are the reason they're unsuitable. There are also atmospheric properties that account for this--Mars' atmosphere is very thin, so it keeps less heat, while Venus' is thich and heavy, so it keeps much more. It doesn't undermine the argument, but it's reasonable to include it.--[[User:John|John]] 22:31, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I am new to Conservapedia, but am having trouble matching up your Commandments with the lack of evidence in most of the articles. For one, the comment referenced above reading "The fact that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun..." I checked this reference and it's clearly religious propaganda with no kind of reference or proof for this statement. Just because someone out there publishes something on a website does not make it worthy of "'''quoting'''". Most of the articles I've seen on this site have literally NO FACTUAL INFORMATION to back them up. Yet your so-called Commandments require this. From what I can tell, no one here has the right to be critical of Wikipedia... I can understand differing perspectives, but most articles on this site are way off base. And there's the fact that this entire site forgets the fact that America is just one piece of an enormous pie, and Christianity is not the only religion. -- Belaboo, 13 March 2007

== Sun orbiting the Earth ==

Come on people, it clearly states in the bible that the Earth is in a fixed position and the Sun orbits around it. Are you people serious about countering anti-Christian bias, or not? [[User:RonaldReagan|RonaldReagan]] 17:36, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

== Earth image ==

I thought this encyclopedia was supposed to give the American point of view its rightful place. Then why are we barely visible in the pic? Even the moon gets better placement than the USA, lol. [[User:Reggie|Reggie]]

== Creationist Bias ==

I changed this passage:

"Followers in Young Earth creationsim believe in a different set of facts about the Earth. The Bible states in Genesis that the entire earth was formed in six days. Young Earth creationists believe, as Biblical chronology suggests, that the Earth was formed in 4004 B.C. Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, dispite large amounts of evidence backing this theorey.

Some Young Earth Creationists, because they are biblical literalists also dispute the shape of the earth, and the idea that the Earth Rotates around the Sun.[1]"

To try and eliminate the Creationist bias, since it says "Followers in Young Earth creationsim believe in a different set of facts about the Earth." However, there are no sources given (and non in existance) that shows them following facts. They follow beliefs to support their religion, but not facts. It should be changed to "Followers in Young Earth creationsim have a different set of opinions about the Earth."

This:

"Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, dispite large amounts of evidence backing this theorey."

Sounds like scientific journals are attacking Creationism, while they are just following the most common scientific point of view. Also, many spelling errors. If you remove the bias it should read more like "Mainstream scientific journals argue against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, despite biblical sources backing up this theory, because they follow scientific evidence." If you don't remove the bias (which I do not agree with), at least write it like this: "Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, despite large amounts of evidence backing this theory."

Not sure what to do about this:

"Some Young Earth Creationists, because they are biblical literalists also dispute the shape of the earth, and the idea that the Earth Rotates around the Sun.[1]"

But it's been proven that the Earth is round and rotates around the sun.

Oh right, forgot to add, the whole point of this was that I made changes and they were removed, therefore adding bias back into the article. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 18:14, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

ALFa--the article is balanced now. There is a pro-evolution/science earth section and a section on biblical literalism. The science section does not need to be weakened by Bible verses and vica versa (no pun intended!) Both claim to be right, and both offer conflicting opinions. This is the way a fair encyclopedia should deal with these claims. If you don't like Young Earth your free to look at the evidence and make that judgement :)--[[User:CWilson|CWilson]] 18:18, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Well in my opinion, neither should be offered as fact, but as seperate opinions, but if that's how you like it, then that's up to you. Please fix the bad spelling though. ;) --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 18:35, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

== My edits and Orlenzia's comments ==

On my talk page, Orlenzia wrote:
{{quoteBox|As for the Earth article you have changed, without discussion, a consensus document worked on by many editors in the site. If you do this you must first submit your changes or ideas on the talk page, rather than unilaterally deciding to do this. I'm putting it back to the old version again. If you wish to discuss how to make the article better I'd be happy to see you at the talk page.}}
I'll make several points in response:
* It is not necessary to discuss every change before making changes. I made a number of changes, including copyediting, etc. Surely you don't expect me to discuss every such change? In any case, it seems as though you've kept most of my changes, except for the creationist stuff.
* As far as the creationist information concerned, I can see no specific discussion on the information that I removed, so it is misleading at best to say that there was consensus.
* One of the claims that I removed (about the shape of the Earth) was blatantly false. It claimed that some creationists believe that the Earth is flat and has corners, and cited in support an anticreationist source that did not claim that creationists teach that, but that in is opinion, that is what the Bible teaches.
* I also reworded the bit about geocentricism, because it read as though the Bible ''does'' teach geocentricism, instead of simply explaining that ''some'' people believe this.
Unless good reason is offered as to why my edits were incorrect, I will be reinstating them.

[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:42, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Hey Philip. These are good points, and I think you made some good edits. I just remember that there was a lot of frackas about this page on various personal talk pages, and it seemed the old version was a good compromise between YECs and Evolutionists. There were those who felt that the YEC stuff was garbage, and those who thought the science stuff shouldn't be included. It was decided that the Bible would be summarized and the science explained in seperate sections. This seems like a good idea, since both sides get to express their point of view. I'm personally Old Earth creationist, but I think that if YECs want to say the Earth is 6000 years old b/c of a series of "begats" then they should also acknowledge that the Bible teaches geocentricism and Flat Earth (because it really clearly does, although of course that was the normal view when it was written so you can take it as a reflection of the difficulty in literal interpretation) and some of the YECs wanted it there too because it does reflect what the Bible literally says and, surprisingly, what some people still believe. In any case, I think its good for both sides to see the cited sources and biblical passages supporting each of these ideas so they can decide for themselves, and also there will be less further controversy. I had to reregister here so I didn't remember seeing you, much less as a SYSOP, so I thought you were POVing the page! Sorry. What is it you wanted to change, exactly? I think as it is the page does a good job reflecting the Bible and the YEC position (which I am sympathetic to, but obviously you can't take EVERYTHING in the Bible 100% literal.) Anyways, I thought to avoid further fights it was best to let YEC editors have their way with their section. I've thought about adding an OEC section, but don't know what I'd say. I usually just fix errors and such. Maybe this would make a good addition to the article? I just didn't want to start the Earth debate again. It seems like planetary bodies (Earth, Moon) and dinosaurs (and t-rex) are big sources of contention on the site. [[User:Orlenzia|Orlenzia]]

:YECs don't say that the Earth is 6,000 years old ''solely'' on the basis of the chronogenealogies (although they are pretty good evidence in themselves). The case for the Bible teaching geocentricism and a flat Earth is ''much'' weaker (if you can make a case at all), so there is no comparison there. And ''no Christian'', to my knowledge, recognised as a scientist or biblical scholar believes that the Bible teaches a flat Earth. A ''few'' believe that it teaches geocentricism. And I disagree that a flat Earth was the normal view when it was written. Have a look at [[Flat Earth]]. As for not seeing me, I am fairly new, and have just been made a sysop, so your confusion was understandable. As was mine in seeing that you had made only two edits when you appeared to drastically change two articles; if I'd realised that you'd been around longer, I might have taken a closer look before warning you.
:To answer your question, what I want changed is the creation view section, back to what I made it.
:[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:44, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

::No worries. Nobody on this site trusts anyone else :(. When the argument first came up I thought along the same lines as you, but then I read one of the cited articles: [http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm] and it changed my mind. That is why I think this should stay. The article is really interesting. You should check it out. Very well cited. The conclusion:

::{{Quote Box|"From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone. Their conclusions were dramatically confirmed by the rediscovery of 1 Enoch."}}

::Ironically, it was one of the YECs on this site who insisted on the section being in because it was literal Bible, and then one of the liberals agreed because he thought it put YEC in perspective. My motives are more along the lines of practicality (it seemed agreeable at the time, there haven't been any edits for a while before now) and also because, although I love the Bible, I think it is important to understand that some parts of it, such as these passages and ones on slavery, etc. suggest that the Bible is also a product of the times in many ways, and excessive literalism can be a double edged sword. Are you YEC? A literalist? I'd urge you to read the paper and think about it before changing the article back. But that's just my opinion. Is there any reason you have to disagree with the citation? Any contradictory evidence or citations?[[User:Orlenzia|Orlenzia]]

Talk:Earth

2007-04-05T01:02:54Z

Orlenzia: /* My edits and Orlenzia's comments */

Earth

2007-04-03T19:45:42Z

Orlenzia: org

[[Image:Artw 17.jpg|right|thumb|View of the Earth as seen by the Apollo 17 crew traveling toward the moon. This translunar coast photograph extends from the Mediterranean Sea area to the Antarctica south polar ice cap. This is the first time the Apollo trajectory made it possible to photograph the south polar ice cap. Note the heavy cloud cover in the Southern Hemisphere. Almost the entire coastline of Africa is clearly visible. The Arabian Peninsula can be seen at the northeastern edge of Africa. The large island off the coast of Africa is the Malagasy Republic. The Asian mainland is on the horizon toward the northeast.]]

== Description ==

The '''Earth''' is the third planet from the Sun. It is approximately 8,000 miles (13,000 km) in diameter, which means that its equatorial circumference (measured around the equator) is 24,901 miles (40,075 kilometers), and the polar circumference is slightly less at 24,809 miles (40,008 km).[http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcircumference.htm] The reason its metric circumference is so close to the "round number" of 40,000 is that the [[kilometer]] was defined (by the French) as 1/10,000th the distance from the equator to the [[North Pole]].

Its surface area is approximately 4·π (4000 mi)2 = 200 million square miles (510 million km2). It has been said that Earth should really be called "water", as the larger part of it—about 70%—is covered by water. In fact, the Pacific and Indian oceans alone cover about half of the Earth's surface.

The Earth orbits at an average distance of about 93 million miles (150 million km) from the Sun in an almost circular orbit. It takes light (and other forms of electromagnetic radiation) approximately 500 seconds to travel from the Sun to the Earth, i.e. the distance can also be stated as "500 light-seconds." The distance to nearby stars is made by measuring the stellar [[parallax]] between observations when the earth is at opposite ends of its orbit, so the earth's orbit itself is a measuring stick for astronomical distances, and is known as the ''astronomical unit'' (A. U.) It is worth noting that if the Earth were slightly closer to the Sun, it would be too hot for life (just as Venus is) while if Earth were slightly further away from the Sun, water would freeze and life would be impossible.

== Young Earth Creationist view ==

Followers in Young Earth creationsim believe in a different set of facts about the Earth. The Bible states in Genesis that the entire earth was formed in six days. Young Earth creationists believe, as Biblical chronology suggests, that the Earth was formed in 4004 B.C. Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, despite large amounts of Biblical evidence backing this theory.<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0822sternberg.asp 1</ref><ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/538.asp 2</ref><ref>http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53400 3</ref><ref>http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3833&program=DI%20Main%20Page%20-%20News&callingPage=discoMainPage 4</ref>

In addition, most scientists also believe believe that the earth formed by natural processes instead of being supernaturally created. However, as one scientist recently noted, “... most every prediction by theorists about planetary formation has been wrong.” <ref>http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes43.html</ref>

Some Young Earth Creationists and Biblical literalists also dispute the shape of the earth, saying that according to the Bible, the earth is flat rather than spherical. However, no credible organization has ever expressed support for this theory.<ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/crea-fe.htm</ref> Some Biblical literalists also dispute the idea that the Earth Rotates around the Sun.<ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</ref>

===Shape of the Earth===
In Revelations 7:1 it is stated:

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..." (Revelations 7:1)

A sphere has no corners. The four corners are also mentioned in Isaiah 11:12. Some say this is a figure of speach, a view literalists reject.<ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</ref>

It is also stated:

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:35)

AND

"Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:" (Daniel 4:10-11)

AND

"Behold, [Jesus] cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Revelations 1:7)

AND

"Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory." (Matthew 4:8)

Such mountains, such a tree or such a view of Jesus could only be possible on a flat earth could only be possible on a flat earth. <ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</ref>

===Position of the Earth===
In the view of the Bible the Earth is fixed, and the sun revolves around it. This can be found in several passages:

"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

"Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..." (Psalm 93:1)

"Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken." (Psalm 104:5)

"...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..." (Isaiah 45:18)

==Christianity and the Earth==

Uniformitarian scientists believe that the earth is beyond 4 billion years old.<ref>http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html</ref> They also refute that the Earth is only 6,000 years old by quoting older human societies dated by their dating method as older than that.<ref>http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/</ref>

Bible scholars have estimated the age of the earth based on the Creation account in Genesis and the genealogical accounts in Numbers and other books of the Pentateuch. One famous estimate was published in 1650 by [[James Ussher|James Ussher Archbishop of Armagh]] in a book called ''Annals of the World,'' in which he estimated the Creation to have occurred on 23 October 4004 B.C. Other Biblical scholars maintain that there are possible gaps in the genealogies, often using the ideas of the 19th century Calvinist theologian [[Benjamin Warfield]] on the issue. <ref>http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/primeval_chronology.shtml</ref> However, [[James Barr]], regius professor of Hebrew at [[Oxford University]], wrote in 1984 the following: "… probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: … the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story.’" <ref>http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1606/</ref> Furthermore, it should be noted that Barr himself rejects supernatural Christianity, and so is not a priori biased in favor of creationism. <ref>http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/pca_creation_study_committee_report.shtml</ref>

Many [[Christian|Christians]] believe that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun and take this to be evidence of [[God]]'s existence. <ref>http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html</ref> Secular scientists, however, reject this reasoning using the anthropic principle<ref>http://www.anthropic-principle.com</ref>.

== Evolutionary view ==

Estimates by geologists of the age of the Earth give about 4.55 billion years. This estimate is primarily based on radioactive dating of meteorites. The extreme majority of scientists conclude that the Earth formed by natural processes, specifically by the accumulation of debris orbiting the sun billions of years in the past. Indeed, astronomers have detected dust lanes around other stars that indicate planet formation is a common and ongoing process.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Planets]]

Earth

2007-04-02T23:43:18Z

Orlenzia: reorg

[[Image:Artw 17.jpg|right|thumb|View of the Earth as seen by the Apollo 17 crew traveling toward the moon. This translunar coast photograph extends from the Mediterranean Sea area to the Antarctica south polar ice cap. This is the first time the Apollo trajectory made it possible to photograph the south polar ice cap. Note the heavy cloud cover in the Southern Hemisphere. Almost the entire coastline of Africa is clearly visible. The Arabian Peninsula can be seen at the northeastern edge of Africa. The large island off the coast of Africa is the Malagasy Republic. The Asian mainland is on the horizon toward the northeast.]]

== Young Earth Creationist view ==

Followers in Young Earth creationsim believe in a different set of facts about the Earth. The Bible states in Genesis that the entire earth was formed in six days. Young Earth creationists believe, as Biblical chronology suggests, that the Earth was formed in 4004 B.C. Mainstream scientific journals discriminate against this point of view, and do not allow for their publication, despite large amounts of Biblical evidence backing this theory.<ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0822sternberg.asp 1</ref><ref>http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/538.asp 2</ref><ref>http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53400 3</ref><ref>http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3833&program=DI%20Main%20Page%20-%20News&callingPage=discoMainPage 4</ref>

In addition, most scientists also believe believe that the earth formed by natural processes instead of being supernaturally created. However, as one scientist recently noted, “... most every prediction by theorists about planetary formation has been wrong.” <ref>http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes43.html</ref>

Some Young Earth Creationists and Biblical literalists also dispute the shape of the earth, saying that according to the Bible, the earth is flat rather than spherical. However, no credible organization has ever expressed support for this theory.<ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/crea-fe.htm</ref> Some Biblical literalists also dispute the idea that the Earth Rotates around the Sun.<ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</ref>

===Shape of the Earth===
In Revelations 7:1 it is stated:

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..." (Revelations 7:1)

A sphere has no corners. The four corners are also mentioned in Isaiah 11:12. Some say this is a figure of speach, a view literalists reject.<ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</ref>

It is also stated:

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:35)

AND

"Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:" (Daniel 4:10-11)

AND

"Behold, [Jesus] cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Revelations 1:7)

AND

"Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory." (Matthew 4:8)

Such mountains, such a tree or such a view of Jesus could only be possible on a flat earth could only be possible on a flat earth. <ref>http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</ref>

===Position of the Earth===
In the view of the Bible the Earth is fixed, and the sun revolves around it. This can be found in several passages:

"He has fixed the earth firm, immovable." (1 Chronicles 16:30)

"Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..." (Psalm 93:1)

"Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken." (Psalm 104:5)

"...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..." (Isaiah 45:18)

==Christianity and the Earth==

Uniformitarian scientists believe that the earth is beyond 4 billion years old.<ref>http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html</ref> They also refute that the Earth is only 6,000 years old by quoting older human societies dated by their dating method as older than that.<ref>http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/</ref>

Bible scholars have estimated the age of the earth based on the Creation account in Genesis and the genealogical accounts in Numbers and other books of the Pentateuch. One famous estimate was published in 1650 by [[James Ussher|James Ussher Archbishop of Armagh]] in a book called ''Annals of the World,'' in which he estimated the Creation to have occurred on 23 October 4004 B.C. Other Biblical scholars maintain that there are possible gaps in the genealogies, often using the ideas of the 19th century Calvinist theologian [[Benjamin Warfield]] on the issue. <ref>http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/primeval_chronology.shtml</ref> However, [[James Barr]], regius professor of Hebrew at [[Oxford University]], wrote in 1984 the following: "… probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: … the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story.’" <ref>http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1606/</ref> Furthermore, it should be noted that Barr himself rejects supernatural Christianity, and so is not a priori biased in favor of creationism. <ref>http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/pca_creation_study_committee_report.shtml</ref>

Many [[Christian|Christians]] believe that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun and take this to be evidence of [[God]]'s existence. <ref>http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html</ref> Secular scientists, however, reject this reasoning using the anthropic principle<ref>http://www.anthropic-principle.com</ref>.

== Scientific Data on the Earth ==

The '''Earth''' is the third planet from the Sun. It is approximately 8,000 miles (13,000 km) in diameter, which means that its equatorial circumference (measured around the equator) is 24,901 miles (40,075 kilometers), and the polar circumference is slightly less at 24,809 miles (40,008 km).[http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcircumference.htm] The reason its metric circumference is so close to the "round number" of 40,000 is that the [[kilometer]] was defined (by the French) as 1/10,000th the distance from the equator to the [[North Pole]].

Its surface area is approximately 4·π (4000 mi)2 = 200 million square miles (510 million km2). It has been said that Earth should really be called "water", as the larger part of it—about 70%—is covered by water. In fact, the Pacific and Indian oceans alone cover about half of the Earth's surface.

The Earth orbits at an average distance of about 93 million miles (150 million km) from the Sun in an almost circular orbit. It takes light (and other forms of electromagnetic radiation) approximately 500 seconds to travel from the Sun to the Earth, i.e. the distance can also be stated as "500 light-seconds." The distance to nearby stars is made by measuring the stellar [[parallax]] between observations when the earth is at opposite ends of its orbit, so the earth's orbit itself is a measuring stick for astronomical distances, and is known as the ''astronomical unit'' (A. U.) It is worth noting that if the Earth were slightly closer to the Sun, it would be too hot for life (just as Venus is) while if Earth were slightly further away from the Sun, water would freeze and life would be impossible.

== Evolutionary view ==

Estimates by geologists of the age of the Earth give about 4.55 billion years. This estimate is primarily based on radioactive dating of meteorites. The extreme majority of scientists conclude that the Earth formed by natural processes, specifically by the accumulation of debris orbiting the sun billions of years in the past. Indeed, astronomers have detected dust lanes around other stars that indicate planet formation is a common and ongoing process.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Planets]]

Schrödinger's Cat

2007-04-02T01:12:58Z

Orlenzia: rm cw stuff

When scientists and historians mention "Schrödinger's Cat" they are usually referring to the seemingly paradoxical thought experiment devised by Erwin Schrödinger that attempts to illustrate that early interpretations of quantum mechanics were overrated and dumb. It has only lately been discovered that so-called "Schrödinger's Cat" was actually many cats, which Schrödinger sacrificed in the name of scientific discovery until he found the results he wanted. Controversy over Schrödinger's methods and findings has raged throughout the scientific community over the past 45 years and has recently spilled over into the realm of social activism.

== Origins ==

Schrödinger proposed his "cat" experiment after debates with Albert Einstein over the Copenhagen interpretation, which Schrödinger defended, stating that if a scenario existed where a cat could be so isolated from external interference (decoherence), the state of the cat can only be known as a superposition (combination) of possible rest states (eigenstates), because finding out (measuring the state) cannot be done without the observer interfering with the experiment — the measurement system (the observer) is entangled with the experiment.

Einstein, believing that Schrödinger was speaking only figuratively, demanded that he "prove it," prompting Schrödinger to retreat to a remote island in the Caribbean to perform his now-famous set of experiments that at that time were kept well under wraps.

== The Experiment ==

Notebooks found at Schrödinger's Caribbean estate reveal his original layout for the series of experiments:

"A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat mixed or smeared out in equal parts."

Schrödinger experimented with approximately 10 different cats, most of which were picked up locally as strays. However, the final three cats used were in fact Schrödinger's own pets. Mittens, an 8-year-old silver American shorthair, survived two runs of the experiment, emerging entirely alive from the steel chamber in two consecutive experiments. Sport, a playful and robust Havana Brown, survived the first run but in the second was killed by the radioactive material. Unfortunately, Sport's state at death was entirely cohesive, contributing nothing toward Schrödinger's hypothesis. Finally, Schrödinger found success with his long-time favorite pet Mr. Whiskers, an elderly striped tabby whose frailty may have contributed in a small part to the eventual success of the experiment. Mr. Whiskers was placed in the steel chamber and left in the system for over an hour. Upon his return, Schrödinger found Mr. Whiskers part-dead and part-alive, with the matter of each half, as expected, "mixed or smeared out in equal parts."

Schrödinger is said to have jumped from his bathtub and cried "Eureka!" when this happened, but so far no sources have been able to corroborate this. Skeptics say that Schrödinger would have to have been sitting in the bathtub at the time of the discovery for this to have happened, meaning the experimental system was set up in his bathroom. Inspection of the estate shows that the only bathroom large enough to accomodate both Schrödinger's tub and the steel-chambered mechanism was the upstairs master bathroom, which diary entries suggest that the superstitious Schrödinger never used, believing there were "ghosts" in that room. The so-called "Eureka!" incident has remained a point of bitter contention among physicists and historical biographers alike.

== Conclusions ==

Schrödinger did not immediately tell Einstein that he had found the solution. Finding it necessary to conceal the evidence of the physical experiments that went on in his lab, Schrödinger was compelled to create an entirely false set of experimental data, mathematical and theoretical in nature, that would describe his results without revealing that they had been carried out on actual living cats. Einstein was impressed with Schrödinger's findings, sending him a congratulatory letter which said the following:

"You are the only contemporary physicist, besides Laue, who sees that one cannot get around the assumption of reality—if only one is honest. Most of them simply do not see what sort of risky game they are playing with reality—reality as something independent of what is experimentally established. Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gun powder + cat in a box, in which the psi-function of the system contains both the cat alive and blown to bits. Nobody really doubts that the presence or absence of the cat is something independent of the act of observation."

Apparently after receiving this letter, Schrödinger wrote in his diary, "It never occurred to me to use, instead of a live cat, an unstable keg of gun powder. In retrospect, this approach may have been more humane. I do feel, though, that my achievements in the realm of scientific progress far outway questions of my potential immorality."

In the scientific world, Schrödinger's foolproof results merited much respect; the "Schrödinger's Cat" theory became one of the most famous and compelling defenses of the Copenhagen school of quantum mechanics.

== Controversy ==

It came as a shock to the world of science when, following Schrödinger's death in 1961, an exploration of his estate and the finding of hidden data and diary entries revealed the grisly nature of his experiments. Determined not to let the unflattering truth impugn the integrity of the Copenhagen school, many of its leading proponents, most notably German physicist Werner Heisenberg, fought to repress much of the information that came out on Schrödinger. Widespread awareness of the "Schrödinger's Cats" scandal did not catch on until the late 1980s, when the animal rights group PETA used obscure derogatory references to Schrödinger's career in an early ad campaign.

There is still some dispute over exactly how many cats were used in Schrödinger's experiments. While the generally accepted tally is 10, estimates range anywhere from 5 to 500 animals killed. Animal Rights activists have demanded that an official investigation be launched into Schrödinger's little-known scientific processes. In 2005, the Austrian estate of Erwin Schrödinger refused a request for $10 million in compensation to be distributed among various animal-friendly charities. A movement has been made recently to rename the "Schrödinger's Cat" theory "Schrödinger's Cats," a politically correct label which would more aptly honor the dead. So far, "Schrödinger's Cat" has remained the accepted term.