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		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=212273</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
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		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* (lost) Acts of Pilate */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions depend principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (of the ''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents, and doubts about the supposed debate need not necessarily extend to the Acts of Pilate itself.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is highly unlikely that Justin's reference was to the known apocryphal text.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Holocaust denial]]&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=207614</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=207614"/>
		<updated>2007-06-24T09:48:23Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* (lost) Acts of Pilate */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions depend principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (of the ''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents, and doubts about the supposed debate need not necessarily extend to the Acts of Pilate itself.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
[[Holocaust denial]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div class=&amp;quot;references-small&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=202192</id>
		<title>Talk:Jesus Christ</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=202192"/>
		<updated>2007-06-19T21:22:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Jesus was Jewish! */&lt;/p&gt;
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==Atheists denying existence of historical Jesus?==&lt;br /&gt;
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I seriously challenge this and would like to see some evidence for it. As the article correctly notes, the historical evidence for the life of Jesus of Nazareth is very good. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:08, 22 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Atheists do not deny the historical person.... in fact, quite the opposite. Atheists tend to believe that, someone who is remembered by so much oral and textual history, must've been a real person. However, just like the characters of Homer's Illiad, simply because someone was real, does not make them progeny of any deity. In fact, evidence proving Jesus was a real, historical person only conflicts with ideas that he could magically heal the sick, walk on water, turn water to wine, etc. In other words, it is those who believe Jesus had supernatural powers that do the most disservice to his historical persona.  Were everyone to claim that Jesus was an excellent preacher with some incredibly great ideas, no one would argue his existence!  --[[User:Newsdan|Newsdan]] 14:39, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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----&lt;br /&gt;
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The article still says &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously.&amp;quot; No source is cited. ''Who,'' exactly, denies the existence of an historical Jesus of Nazareth? If this belief is widely held someone, somewhere ought to have published something about it and the publication ought to be cited. &lt;br /&gt;
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There's no need to introduce this section with a straw man. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:24, 4 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Want confirmation of this? Go to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ#Historicity this section of Wikipedia's article on Jesus]. It's true that some people deny his existence. It's not a widely held belief; it's only held by a small, and I do emphasize ''small'', minority. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:17, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::If you think there is a small minority of people in the world that deny the existence of Jesus then you need to get out of the house a bit more.&lt;br /&gt;
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::When using Wikipedia as confirmation of a fact, I try to follow the trail of cited sources. In this case, the trail leads to Wikipedia's article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Historicity of Jesus], thence to a footnote, which quotes the source as saying&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot; - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't think &amp;quot;Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted&amp;quot; supports the statement that &amp;quot;a small minority [of scholars] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure...&amp;quot; Neither of the Wikipedia articles names any scholars, or anyone else, who hold that Jesus of Nazareth was not a real figure in history.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I still will think it's a straw man unless someone produces some reasonably mainstream, reasonably modern examples of people challenging the historicity of Jesus. Wikipedia's neutrality policy says you can include &amp;quot;facts about opinions&amp;quot; when the opinions are ''reasonably'' widely held. I think the idea of there not being an historical Jesus of Nazareth is so rarely held that it is not worth mentioning. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:48, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I think you have serious defintional issues here that may alter whether or not this is at all a commonly held view. For example, do we mean that Jesus is a figure made up out of whole cloth? I don't think anyone seriously argues for that. Do we mean that he is a historical figure but many details of other preachers at the time got glommed onto his life-story? Many more would agree with this. Do we mean that Jesus is a compilation of the lives of a variety of people from that time period and one of their names happened to stick? I think you would get a lot for this last one. So when denying historicity you need to be very careful what you mean. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:15, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: OK. Originally I was commenting on the phrase &amp;quot;Many atheists claim that there is no evidence of Jesus outside the Bible.&amp;quot; That has since been softened to &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus.&amp;quot; I was, indeed, interpreting this to mean &amp;quot;invented in whole cloth.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: If the article were editable I'd propose simply excising the sentence &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; since I don't see that it adds anything to the section. Presumably a finished section would make it clear which details of the Gospel accounts are widely accepted by scholars as historical and which are debated. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:40, 11 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::The evidence presented so far in the article is hardly compelling. It needs to be expanded, or the assertion that &amp;quot;few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; will need to be qualified. --[[User:John|John]] 22:52, 12 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Whether there are or are not people who question the historical existence of Jesus is not as important to this article as is the fact that there is no citation of where this claim comes from. Scorpionman, if you are suggesting I should go to Wikipedia to check the information, then what use does this Conservapedia article have in the first place? --[[User:GarbageMan|GarbageMan]] 10:14 5 April 2007 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Even we Atheists and Jews do not deny the '''existence''' of Jesus, merely the idea that he was the son of God.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Locked ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Can someone unlock this article? It needs more information. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:21, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Apparently... the key to unlocking this page is true faith.&lt;br /&gt;
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The very fact that this article is locked means I'm leaving this website and never returning again.&lt;br /&gt;
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::You Legend&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Some one needs to unlock this page if it is on the main page: Lets all improve these articles. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 09:17, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Funny how this page is locked depsite conservapedia asking for people to edit it. &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;previous unsigned comment added by&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; [[User:Wikipediaisbetter]]&lt;br /&gt;
:Funny how Wikipedia's article is also locked... They are better exactly how..? [[User:Fox|Fox]] 10:11, 25 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Jesus is a pretty popular object of vandalism, I say keep it locked and people can propose changes here. That is one of the reasons for talk pages. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 10:58, 25 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Josephus ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The line about Josephus is misleading and false.  No doubt you refer to the &amp;quot;Testimoniam Flavianum,&amp;quot; in which Josephus trumpets Jesus as the messiah for one paragraph, and then moves on.  It's worth noting that the TF is not believed by any serious scholars, and has been shown to be a forgery added by medieval monks... note that this does *NOT* undercut the importance of Jesus at all!  He was barely known in his time, and the fact that Josephus wouldn't write about him is unsurprising.  Josephus was known to be an anti-revolutionary who hated all the messianic figures of his time, and won his fame by being the lone Jew to decry them...&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Worth mentioning? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Excuse me, but do you think it's worth mentioning that Jesus was probably Jewish?  He merely provided the foundation of Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Jewish? ''Jewish''? He was the Son of God, for pete's sake (sorry, nearly used the other, rather more obvious expression)! Haven't you seen all those pictures of him with the fair hair and blue eyes? And so, with Joseph not being his father an' all, he can only have been ''half''-Jewish at best, can he? (pardon my irony!) So it's no wonder, is it, that, thanks largely to Paul, the poor Jews can't make head or tail of what Christians have managed to do with him  - let alone with ''their'' scriptures!--[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:55, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Wouldn't that be racist? --[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:02, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No. Just taking the p... out of racists! Irony. British thing. Don't worry your head about it! (''Of course'' the man was Jewish!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Matrilineal descent is what counts, I believe. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 13:00, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That's funny - I could have sworn that Matthew traces his descent through his father (or rather through the man who allegedly wasn't his father in the first place) while Luke does the same, but citing an incompatible number of generations and entirely different names! (pardon my irony again!) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:11, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The two theories are:&lt;br /&gt;
::1) St. Joseph was adopted, and one lineage is legal heritage&lt;br /&gt;
::2) One lineage is that of Our Lady, and the other of St. Joseph&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:13, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well, you'd have thought they'd have said so, then, wouldn't you?  Especially as they both say it's through Joseph, and there are far more generations in the one than in the other! (Honestly, the squirming that goes on to try and justify Christian dogma in the face of what the scriptures actually say!) ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Is this page locked?  I thought that perhaps one should add, after explaining that &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot; is the Greek form of the Hebrew name &amp;quot;Joshua,&amp;quot; that &amp;quot;Christ&amp;quot; comes from the Greek &amp;quot;christos,&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;the annointed one&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 18:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Absolutely. Or rather that ''christos'' is the Greek translation of Hebrew ''mashiach'', meaning 'anointed' and thus '[[Messiah]]' (and not, of course, Joshua's surname!!). Ironic, isn't it, that we know the two names mainly through the 'enemy' Greek culture that faithful Hebrews were most anxious to combat at the time? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 07:18, 14 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ the Redeemer?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Er...I find it a little bizarre to have a photo, and not a very good one of the Christ the Redeemer sculpture in Brazil as the only picture on this article.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''A NOTE TO THE ADMINS:''' Why are so many essential articles locked? If someone wanted to vandalise an article on Jesus they'd do it on Wikipedia where they'd get more airtime. This article is so woefully inadequate it's almost laughable. What about the teachings of Jesus, summarised? What about, oh, the prophets of the old testament foretelling his coming? What about the revelation of God's character through the old testament brought to fruition in Christ?&lt;br /&gt;
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If you want to lock these articles, fine, I don't care. But make sure they're up to scratch before you do so. Otherwise you'll just drive people away like our friend earlier. [[User:Dallas|Dallas]] 07:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Help for this article is on the way, so be patient!  :) [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:56, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==The name Jesus==&lt;br /&gt;
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I came across some interesting information, which I've summarised here. If anybody who can edit this page would like to put it in, others might also find it interesting.&lt;br /&gt;
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Considering that Christianity is 2000 years old, the name Jesus for Jesus Christ is not a very old word in English. In Old English he was called hæland “saviour”, from the Proto-Germanic root hailjan “to heal, to save”. &lt;br /&gt;
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After the Norman conquest, the French form Iesu  or Iesus was adopted. This derived from Latin Iosus, which the Romans adopted from the Greek Iesous.  The Greeks derived the name from the late Hebrew or Aramaic name Yoshua, today’s version of which is “Joshua”.  The earlier Aramaic form was Jehoshua (Y’hoshua) or Joshua., deriving from Hebrew Jah, short for Jahweh, and  Aramaic y’shuoh meaning “salvation”. The name thus meant “Jah is salvation”.  Both Joshua and Jehoshua were common names in the time of Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 16th century written English both Iesu and Iesus were used, for example in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1526. J did not replace I until the 17th century and the form with the final s became common in the 18th century.  &lt;br /&gt;
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In Middle English documents, Jesus was often written IHS, an abbreviation of Greek IHSOYS (Iesous).  However, in spoken English between the 11th and 17th centuries, the letter I could sound like either an I or a J, so the pronunciation of Iesus was similar to today’s sound.  Welsh still retains the Iesu form but pronounces it “yessy”. &lt;br /&gt;
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http://www.takeourword.com/Issue068.html&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 3.51 24 March 2007&lt;br /&gt;
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:''Very'' interesting, but, alas, factual - so it doesn't have much chance of being included here! --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:19, 25 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Birth of Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Just curious, especially considering how big a deal the A.D./C.E. thing is here, but why is there no mention of Christs Birthdate?  Would think its sort of important given how much attention you've been heeding it.  Best Scholarly guess seems to be late September in 05 B.C., which is odd I think, since that not only would grammatically read as him being born five years before he was born (a lesser miracle?) but also would imply that A.D. and C.E. are equally, inaccurately, based on the date of Christ's birth, with only A.D. claiming as much, and incorrectly at that.&lt;br /&gt;
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==Case for Christ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am reinserting the reference to ''Case for Christ''. It is not a &amp;quot;book review&amp;quot; to mention the book in one or two sentences. In fact, I think Conservapedia should serve as a jumping off point to further research on subjects, and that book is in itself a jumping off point to further research. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 01:11, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Name of page==&lt;br /&gt;
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This ought to be Jesus Christ, not just Jesus. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 03:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well from what I understand Christ is a [[Messiah|title]] not part of a name. It would be like renaming the George W. Bush article to President George W. Bush. If you're worried about someone typing in Jesus Christ and not able to get to the article that's not happening as Jesus Christ redirects to Jesus. [[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 03:33, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Sulgran, it is a highly secular idea of what it means.  His name is '''Jesus Christ''' to hundreds of millions of people throughout the World.  I don't think some online encyclopedia has a right to truncate his name. As Christians, we hold to these basic tenets: &lt;br /&gt;
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Our Core Values&lt;br /&gt;
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#'''1.        We praise Jesus Christ as Lord and savior always'''.&lt;br /&gt;
#2.        Help others in their time of need, the lost, hungry and weak.&lt;br /&gt;
#3.        Spread the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven.&lt;br /&gt;
#4.        Love God the Father with all of our hearts, mind, body, and soul. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt; --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:18, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::5.        5. And ignore all the other 600-odd commandments, apart from:&lt;br /&gt;
::6.        6. Be insufferably smug at all times. &lt;br /&gt;
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:In that case, we should refer to 'King David Christ', too, since he called himself that (in the Hebrew, ''mashiach'') throughout the Psalms. But it wasn't his name, any more than it was Jesus's. The word is a ''Greek translation'', of all things! (But then, to be fair, so is 'Jesus'!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:29, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Indeed.  Christ is an honorific, not a name.  In fact, his name was actually Yeshua[[User:Daemon|Daemon]] 12:28, 14 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Well, we are not for everyone. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As a sysop, I decided that readers looking for information on [[Jesus]] would be better served if they found it in [[Jesus Christ]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:06, 17 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:08, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:It looks like it has been locked again.  There are a few ignorant spelling errors I would like to correct. [[User:MontyZuma|MontyZuma]] 19:09, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Simple Logic?==&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't see how this phrase:&lt;br /&gt;
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:&amp;quot;Why would Jesus voluntarily submit to a crucifixion unless it was to be followed by a resurrection?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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is an example of simple logic. There could be any number of reasons why he would submit to his execution. I don't think even Christian's think he only did it to prove that he would be resurrected. He submitted to be executed simply because it would wash away the sins of man. This statement should be removed. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 12:58, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Surely Jesus while on Earth was a man born of woman and both feared and felt pain as a man would. Saying he went willingly because he knew he would rise again surely cheapens the sacrifice he made for us. He gave his life willingly and with great suffering for us without knowing what would become of him and, in this, made the most selfless sacrifice in all of history.&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a theologian but I would like to see a scholar of the Bible (as supposed to a simple follower like me) look at what I've suggested and see if the Bible supports this. I always believed that the human aspect of him made the sacrifice all the greater (and the sadder as such a great man died to such mockery and in such pain). --[[User:Trashbat|Trashbat]] 19:17, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This statement was put in again (although under a different guise). I removed it as it is neither logic, or the reason Jesus was crucified. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:35, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== The top picture should be on the right more so the top text can be on the left ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The top picture should be on the right more so the text can be on the left. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:16, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Nevermind i fixed it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:17, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*LOL...its okay for the pic to be on the left, as it was originally. ;-) --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 19:27, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::TK, i certainly don't want to get into a edit war over something trivial.  But people do read from left to right and at first I missed the upper text.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:39, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How can there be an edit war if you're the only person editing? [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 20:16, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Unprotection ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Glad to see you unprotected the article for the &amp;quot;Article improvement drive&amp;quot;.  I would make some edits but need to hit the sack. [[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 19:00, 10 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Other people in the Bible name Jesus ==&lt;br /&gt;
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While this is interesting, it's not appropriate for an article on Jesus Christ, which itself can get rather long.  I did include a brief acknowledgement of Joshua and Messiah in the opening paragraph so your additions in regard to Jesus Christ are not lost. I hope this makes sense to you. Thanks  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:26, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Lead ==&lt;br /&gt;
I wrote a new lead.  I hope its not to bold, but I wanted to get the point about just who Jesus is right upfront.  [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 20:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:While I am a Christian, I'm still thinking perhaps we should start with the words &amp;quot;In Christian theology&amp;quot;, before your new lead.  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:34, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*Learn together, please don't fall for the realitivists here.  This is a Christian, Conservative encyclopedia.  Ignore those wanting neutral statements, okay?  --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 06:23, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you objectively, empirically demonstrate the claim that Christ was born of a virgin, was the incarnation of God and, through dying, absolved the sins of his believers past, present and future?  Its perfectly fine to believe this, sure, but to claim it as outright fact is wrong, and not simply because the only source for these grand claims is the Bible (a book which contains within it numerous self-contradictory and inaccurate passages, but thats another discussion) but also that to attempt to pin him down as a concrete character defies the various interpretations which have lead to the factioning of the church based on different eschatologies.  Different christian religions all see christ in different lights.  Some believe he was a miracle worker, some a philosopher/teacher, some see him as a pure man of God and some as God himself.  &lt;br /&gt;
:Don't get me wrong, TK, I'm fully in favor of an un-neutral encyclopedia that promotes a specific &amp;quot;Christian, Conservative&amp;quot; narrative by selectively cherrypicking evidence and ignoring context to suggest as fact things that are not necessarily the case, and certainly the article can stay such as it is, offending the intellectual sensibilities of people like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin who saw truth in Christ's teachings but had &amp;quot;doubts as to his divinity,&amp;quot; by committing the intellectual dishonesty of stating these things as outright fact which only cite one text as the source for these extraordinary claims.  &lt;br /&gt;
:I just think though that if beliefs are going to be stated as fact that CPedia needs to come out front and decide which particular kind of christianity its going to promote as singularly true.  Which particular protestant reformations will CPedia then be in a position to declare as false?  Which Catholic sects?  Methodism?  Lutheranism?  Mormonism?  Making an &amp;quot;un-neutral&amp;quot; statement does get that snowball rolling after all, and if you've decided, TK, that neutrality is a bad thing, then riddle me this:  Which conservapedia contributors... no... which CPedia Sysops will have the fun to find that the CPedia says their particular belief in Christ is outright wrong?  I would really like to know.  You all going to vote on which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; are you?  I mean clearly here &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; is decided by the ideaology of the sysops as a group, and its not very likely that you all go to the exact same church, so who is it, specifically, who gets to have their Christian faith called false here?  Inquiring minds want to know.&lt;br /&gt;
:--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 12:27, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I think you got off on a tangent there.  The majority of practicing Christians would have no trouble with the portrayal of Jesus put forth by Lostcaesar; there's no need to identify every variant and condition to the point where gridlock trumps common sense.  And saying only one text is cited for Jesus is like taking all of the works of ancient Greece and putting them in one volume, then saying there's only one source that discusses ancient Greece. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:24, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I apologize if I was unclear.  I realize that there is archeological evidence that Jesus existed, but the problem isn't whether he lived or not.  Its his divinity.  The only source for such a claim is a selection of specific accounts of his life (others who witnessed him do not mention miracles, as an example) of which there is no supporting evidence.  The only you can say about his divinity, therefore, is that the bible claims it to be so and that people believe it.  Stating it as manifest fact simply because the majority agrees would be like, if the majority were also Star Trek fans, saying that Capt. James T Kirk is a real person.  Facts are not democratic and demand quantification.&lt;br /&gt;
:My other problem with &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; being used to argue the stament of beliefs as fact in this sense is that you admit there are a minority of Christians (myself among them) who do not necessarily believe in the divinity of Christ.  Say then that another section goes up in the article about how He should be worshipped then.  Do you populate that section with the majority religion at the expense of the others?  Say Catholicism over Protestantism?  Then that majority further divides over reformations and yields another majority, which then divides over another issue and then another, and before long you have Russian Nesting dolls, each being a majority, until the &amp;quot;minorities&amp;quot; put together outnumber the &amp;quot;majorities&amp;quot; 10 to 1.  &lt;br /&gt;
:When you allow lapsed standards for statements of fact such as this merely on the basis of it being the opinion of the majority, you get exactly that situation in the long run.  I notice, of course, that if a liberal were to make a similar unverifiable, intellectually dishonest claim on this site, he'd be hunted down with dogs.  For consistancy's sake, for legitimacy's sake, and not least of all for Christ's sake, the only thing that should be said as fact about Christ's divinity is that the bible claims it to be so.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 11:38, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::''Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.  Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: &amp;quot;Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.&amp;quot; ...The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, &amp;quot;Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.&amp;quot;'' (John 19:18-19, 21)&lt;br /&gt;
::What will we write?  &amp;quot;Jesus is the Son of God&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;some claim he said that he was the Son of God.&amp;quot; ? [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 12:40, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I think the best and simplest thing to say is some variant of &amp;quot;According to the Bible, Jesus was the son of god, born of a virgin, etc.&amp;quot; since I agree the bible is the most pivotal reference for alot of the history attributed to him.  The important thing to realize is that, and I dont mean this to be as condescenting as it might sound, but Jesus here is basically a character in a book, and as such since the only real source for the bulk of the extraordinary claims is that same book, the very simple quantifier &amp;quot;According to the bible...&amp;quot; used sparingly just to establish that context would, I think, be the best course of action.  Fair?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 13:41, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry to follow you here, RexMundane, I'll cease with this observation.  I generally agree with your modest tone here, and do not take offense.  I would like to add one clarification, though.  While the Bible is most often published in a single book, it is actually a collection of books (or scrolls), letters, etc.  The phrasing &amp;quot;According to the Bible...&amp;quot; seems to ickypedian to me.  This is a conservative encyclopedia.  I am not sure we need to cite the source of the statement in line, but perhaps we do.  I don't think conservapedia is about doubting the historocity of Jesus.  Am I wrong?  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 15:57, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Well the claim of Jesus's divinity though is entirely based on the aggregate statements made by the bible.  I agree that there was a Jesus, that significant events in the story of his life, as recanted in the bible, have been verified by archeological record, and it is entirely honest to say as much.  Claiming he was born of a virgin, is the son of God, etc., however rather demands a quantifier since it is, and I say this recognizing this as a &amp;quot;christian&amp;quot; cyclopedia, only a claim being made by one source (I am here refering to the selection of texts in the bible as a single group) and significant as that source is to discussing the nature of Jesus, I maintain that it is wrong to say these things as objective fact when, outside of the claims made by that one source, there is no other empirical proof to say that, for instance, the ressurection was a real event.  If the event exists, basically, only as an event in the story the Bible tells, that should be made explicit.  &lt;br /&gt;
:As I say, I consider myself a christian in a sort of Thomas Jefferson sense, and don't require him to have been supernatural or even for the bible to have been accurate in order to be able to glean moral lessons from the story of his life.  I realize that my opinion is not as important as the bible's in this regard, certainly as far as conveying the story of Christ, but the important thing is that the story is, basically, the bible's version.  An important version to be sure, but it does a disservice to not make that clear, I rather think.  Given too how I don't actually see how saying something like &amp;quot;The Bible says Jesus was X&amp;quot; instead of simply &amp;quot;Jesus was X&amp;quot; in any way changes a persons interpretation of Christ or his story in any significant way.  I'm not saying to call it a lie, just to acknowledge that the primary basis for the claims is the bible itself.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 17:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Jesus' divinity is known by revelation, making it a fact that we can be certain about.  If you wish to talk about sources, a section would be appropriate, where we can talk about the witness of the Bible, the Church Fathers, and any of the many miracles wrought in his name in the two thousand years since his resurrection.  But, just as we would not qualify every statement about Julius Caesar being emperor of Rome, we should not qualify what we say about the Son of God. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 19:42, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The distinction is that Ceaser being the emperor of rome is not disputed by anyone, whereas the nature of the divinity of Christ, even among Christians, is under dispute.  &amp;quot;Jesus' divinity is known by revelation,&amp;quot; only to those who know it, not to everyone.  Among even people who believe in the truth of his teachings there are legitimate arguments as to whether or not the account of the bible regarding the virgin birth, miracles, etc., is true, or even necessary.  All I'm asking for is that such statements of divinity which historians and christians themselves have disagreements on simply be clarified as being the bible's account.  Saying its not necessary simply because the majority of christians believe in it sends us down the rabbit hole of deciding which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; by majority as well.  I'm sorry, please help me here, why is there such opposition to simply adding the phrase &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; once or twice?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 10:23, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I agree with Rex.  Stating that Jesus *is* the Son of God unequivocally leaves Conservapedia in the position of endorsing Christianity as objectively true, when in fact this isn't verifiable, and the majority of people on earth are not Christian.  A statement saying &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;According to the Christian faith&amp;quot; as a preface would make this more objective. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 13:11, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::1) This is a Christian encyclopedia.  2) While you may not think it is 'verifiable', others are not obliged to agree with this conclusion or approach.  3) Truth is not determined by mere popular whimsy, ergo the number of Christians is not directly relevant, though the position of the faith as the plurality, or near plurality position amongst different religions ought to give cause to reevaluate your position, even if you continue with the assumption that sheer number is directly relevant. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 16:34, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::1) No, it isn't a Christian encyclopedia; it's a conservative encyclopedia QED.  Not all conservatives are Christians, and even if they were it wouldn't make the question of Christ's divinity any more or less objectively verifiable.  2) It isn't just me that believes that the question of Christ's divinity is unverifiable.  Such a question is one of faith, not of science, and as such is purely subjective.  You may personally believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior, and noone is suggesting that you should believe otherwise, but you should recognize that this position can't be objectively proven.  3) I'm not making an argumentum ad populum, I'm simply pointing out that Conservapedia should not be in the business of claiming that one religion is true over all others, and it's sheer hubris to do otherwise.  [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 11:39, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You sound as if you consider your statement (2) to be &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot;, since you give no argument for it other than to repeat the assertion.  Whatever the case, what is &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot; is that the frontpage contains a Daily Bible Verse.  Please example this [http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070306/26179_Conservapedia_Challenges_%27Anti-Christian%27_Wiki.htm useful text]. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 13:06, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Regardless of the opinion of the Christian Post, the stated purpose of this website is to provide a counterpoint to perceived liberal bias in Wikipedia, not to advance Christianity as the only true religion.  There are a great many non-Christian conservatives.  If you haven't guessed by now, you're speaking to one.  With regards to verifiability, the fact is that the entire basis upon which the divinity of Christ rests is the Bible itself, which is not an objective source, it's a work of faith.  I appreciate that you have a strong faith, but just as Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Conservapedia should not be one either.  To claim that one religion is true over all others rather than to give a dispassionate overview of the facts surrounding those religions is to stop being an encyclopedia, and to start being a tract.  To state &amp;quot;Christians believe Christ to be the Son of God&amp;quot; is a fact which can be proven.  To state &amp;quot;Christ is the Son of God&amp;quot; may or may not be true, but cannot be proven independant of the Bible.  This in and of itself violates Conservapedia commandment 1.  [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:12, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The Gospels and the testimonies and facts along centuries are &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot;. They are holly books and facts as well as scientifically truth as other history book are according to History science. What you have to remember is that men are undoubtedly flash and soul. Make your statements using both and you will see as John the Apostle teched, the love that is there and that is a reality objectively verifiable. Any man can be a witness of that simple truth. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 14:25, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The Bible may be held by some to be holy, but that view isn't held by all (indeed, it's only held by a minority of the world's population).  Other holy texts do not claim that Jesus was the son of God.  Conservapedia should not be in the business of stating that one holy text is true and others are false, because this is a matter of faith, not fact. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 16:27, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Jesus was Jewish! ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Jesus was Jewish... his personal religious beliefs are central to a belief in him, yet this article makes no mention of what Jesus believed.  This glaring omission can only be seen as an effort to force history into alignment with current ideals. {{unsigned|Newsdan}}&lt;br /&gt;
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:That's a little harsh. Yes, Yeshua was Jewish. And as the site grows I'm sure the article will come to reflect this. This is a fairly new site, Newsdan - it didn't appear fully formed and perfect :) [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 14:34, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Like most of us did not know he was a Jew. There is nothing wrong with him being Jewish, nothing!--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 14:36, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Will... the problem is that the article is locked, and yet was done so without adding this fact.  --[[User:Newsdan|Newsdan]] 14:42, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:You can use this talk section to preview to the sysops anything you'd like to add. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 14:44, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd suggest providing the wording you would like to see included and where this placement would occur.  As Fox has stated, the sysops are more than happy to see that constructive edits are included. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 14:49, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Jesus was ethnically Jewish, but he came to fulfill the Jewish faith, thereby founding the Christian Church.  [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 17:22, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=202191</id>
		<title>Talk:Jesus Christ</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=202191"/>
		<updated>2007-06-19T21:22:41Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Jesus was Jewish! */&lt;/p&gt;
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==Atheists denying existence of historical Jesus?==&lt;br /&gt;
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I seriously challenge this and would like to see some evidence for it. As the article correctly notes, the historical evidence for the life of Jesus of Nazareth is very good. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:08, 22 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Atheists do not deny the historical person.... in fact, quite the opposite. Atheists tend to believe that, someone who is remembered by so much oral and textual history, must've been a real person. However, just like the characters of Homer's Illiad, simply because someone was real, does not make them progeny of any deity. In fact, evidence proving Jesus was a real, historical person only conflicts with ideas that he could magically heal the sick, walk on water, turn water to wine, etc. In other words, it is those who believe Jesus had supernatural powers that do the most disservice to his historical persona.  Were everyone to claim that Jesus was an excellent preacher with some incredibly great ideas, no one would argue his existence!  --[[User:Newsdan|Newsdan]] 14:39, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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----&lt;br /&gt;
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The article still says &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously.&amp;quot; No source is cited. ''Who,'' exactly, denies the existence of an historical Jesus of Nazareth? If this belief is widely held someone, somewhere ought to have published something about it and the publication ought to be cited. &lt;br /&gt;
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There's no need to introduce this section with a straw man. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:24, 4 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Want confirmation of this? Go to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ#Historicity this section of Wikipedia's article on Jesus]. It's true that some people deny his existence. It's not a widely held belief; it's only held by a small, and I do emphasize ''small'', minority. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:17, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::If you think there is a small minority of people in the world that deny the existence of Jesus then you need to get out of the house a bit more.&lt;br /&gt;
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::When using Wikipedia as confirmation of a fact, I try to follow the trail of cited sources. In this case, the trail leads to Wikipedia's article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Historicity of Jesus], thence to a footnote, which quotes the source as saying&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot; - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I don't think &amp;quot;Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted&amp;quot; supports the statement that &amp;quot;a small minority [of scholars] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure...&amp;quot; Neither of the Wikipedia articles names any scholars, or anyone else, who hold that Jesus of Nazareth was not a real figure in history.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I still will think it's a straw man unless someone produces some reasonably mainstream, reasonably modern examples of people challenging the historicity of Jesus. Wikipedia's neutrality policy says you can include &amp;quot;facts about opinions&amp;quot; when the opinions are ''reasonably'' widely held. I think the idea of there not being an historical Jesus of Nazareth is so rarely held that it is not worth mentioning. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:48, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I think you have serious defintional issues here that may alter whether or not this is at all a commonly held view. For example, do we mean that Jesus is a figure made up out of whole cloth? I don't think anyone seriously argues for that. Do we mean that he is a historical figure but many details of other preachers at the time got glommed onto his life-story? Many more would agree with this. Do we mean that Jesus is a compilation of the lives of a variety of people from that time period and one of their names happened to stick? I think you would get a lot for this last one. So when denying historicity you need to be very careful what you mean. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:15, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: OK. Originally I was commenting on the phrase &amp;quot;Many atheists claim that there is no evidence of Jesus outside the Bible.&amp;quot; That has since been softened to &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus.&amp;quot; I was, indeed, interpreting this to mean &amp;quot;invented in whole cloth.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: If the article were editable I'd propose simply excising the sentence &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; since I don't see that it adds anything to the section. Presumably a finished section would make it clear which details of the Gospel accounts are widely accepted by scholars as historical and which are debated. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:40, 11 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::The evidence presented so far in the article is hardly compelling. It needs to be expanded, or the assertion that &amp;quot;few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; will need to be qualified. --[[User:John|John]] 22:52, 12 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Whether there are or are not people who question the historical existence of Jesus is not as important to this article as is the fact that there is no citation of where this claim comes from. Scorpionman, if you are suggesting I should go to Wikipedia to check the information, then what use does this Conservapedia article have in the first place? --[[User:GarbageMan|GarbageMan]] 10:14 5 April 2007 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Even we Atheists and Jews do not deny the '''existence''' of Jesus, merely the idea that he was the son of God.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Locked ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Can someone unlock this article? It needs more information. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:21, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Apparently... the key to unlocking this page is true faith.&lt;br /&gt;
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The very fact that this article is locked means I'm leaving this website and never returning again.&lt;br /&gt;
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::You Legend&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Some one needs to unlock this page if it is on the main page: Lets all improve these articles. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 09:17, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Funny how this page is locked depsite conservapedia asking for people to edit it. &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;previous unsigned comment added by&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; [[User:Wikipediaisbetter]]&lt;br /&gt;
:Funny how Wikipedia's article is also locked... They are better exactly how..? [[User:Fox|Fox]] 10:11, 25 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Jesus is a pretty popular object of vandalism, I say keep it locked and people can propose changes here. That is one of the reasons for talk pages. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 10:58, 25 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Josephus ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The line about Josephus is misleading and false.  No doubt you refer to the &amp;quot;Testimoniam Flavianum,&amp;quot; in which Josephus trumpets Jesus as the messiah for one paragraph, and then moves on.  It's worth noting that the TF is not believed by any serious scholars, and has been shown to be a forgery added by medieval monks... note that this does *NOT* undercut the importance of Jesus at all!  He was barely known in his time, and the fact that Josephus wouldn't write about him is unsurprising.  Josephus was known to be an anti-revolutionary who hated all the messianic figures of his time, and won his fame by being the lone Jew to decry them...&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Worth mentioning? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Excuse me, but do you think it's worth mentioning that Jesus was probably Jewish?  He merely provided the foundation of Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;
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: Jewish? ''Jewish''? He was the Son of God, for pete's sake (sorry, nearly used the other, rather more obvious expression)! Haven't you seen all those pictures of him with the fair hair and blue eyes? And so, with Joseph not being his father an' all, he can only have been ''half''-Jewish at best, can he? (pardon my irony!) So it's no wonder, is it, that, thanks largely to Paul, the poor Jews can't make head or tail of what Christians have managed to do with him  - let alone with ''their'' scriptures!--[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:55, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Wouldn't that be racist? --[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:02, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No. Just taking the p... out of racists! Irony. British thing. Don't worry your head about it! (''Of course'' the man was Jewish!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Matrilineal descent is what counts, I believe. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 13:00, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That's funny - I could have sworn that Matthew traces his descent through his father (or rather through the man who allegedly wasn't his father in the first place) while Luke does the same, but citing an incompatible number of generations and entirely different names! (pardon my irony again!) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:11, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The two theories are:&lt;br /&gt;
::1) St. Joseph was adopted, and one lineage is legal heritage&lt;br /&gt;
::2) One lineage is that of Our Lady, and the other of St. Joseph&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:13, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well, you'd have thought they'd have said so, then, wouldn't you?  Especially as they both say it's through Joseph, and there are far more generations in the one than in the other! (Honestly, the squirming that goes on to try and justify Christian dogma in the face of what the scriptures actually say!) ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Is this page locked?  I thought that perhaps one should add, after explaining that &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot; is the Greek form of the Hebrew name &amp;quot;Joshua,&amp;quot; that &amp;quot;Christ&amp;quot; comes from the Greek &amp;quot;christos,&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;the annointed one&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 18:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Absolutely. Or rather that ''christos'' is the Greek translation of Hebrew ''mashiach'', meaning 'anointed' and thus '[[Messiah]]' (and not, of course, Joshua's surname!!). Ironic, isn't it, that we know the two names mainly through the 'enemy' Greek culture that faithful Hebrews were most anxious to combat at the time? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 07:18, 14 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ the Redeemer?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Er...I find it a little bizarre to have a photo, and not a very good one of the Christ the Redeemer sculpture in Brazil as the only picture on this article.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''A NOTE TO THE ADMINS:''' Why are so many essential articles locked? If someone wanted to vandalise an article on Jesus they'd do it on Wikipedia where they'd get more airtime. This article is so woefully inadequate it's almost laughable. What about the teachings of Jesus, summarised? What about, oh, the prophets of the old testament foretelling his coming? What about the revelation of God's character through the old testament brought to fruition in Christ?&lt;br /&gt;
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If you want to lock these articles, fine, I don't care. But make sure they're up to scratch before you do so. Otherwise you'll just drive people away like our friend earlier. [[User:Dallas|Dallas]] 07:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Help for this article is on the way, so be patient!  :) [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:56, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==The name Jesus==&lt;br /&gt;
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I came across some interesting information, which I've summarised here. If anybody who can edit this page would like to put it in, others might also find it interesting.&lt;br /&gt;
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Considering that Christianity is 2000 years old, the name Jesus for Jesus Christ is not a very old word in English. In Old English he was called hæland “saviour”, from the Proto-Germanic root hailjan “to heal, to save”. &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
After the Norman conquest, the French form Iesu  or Iesus was adopted. This derived from Latin Iosus, which the Romans adopted from the Greek Iesous.  The Greeks derived the name from the late Hebrew or Aramaic name Yoshua, today’s version of which is “Joshua”.  The earlier Aramaic form was Jehoshua (Y’hoshua) or Joshua., deriving from Hebrew Jah, short for Jahweh, and  Aramaic y’shuoh meaning “salvation”. The name thus meant “Jah is salvation”.  Both Joshua and Jehoshua were common names in the time of Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 16th century written English both Iesu and Iesus were used, for example in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1526. J did not replace I until the 17th century and the form with the final s became common in the 18th century.  &lt;br /&gt;
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In Middle English documents, Jesus was often written IHS, an abbreviation of Greek IHSOYS (Iesous).  However, in spoken English between the 11th and 17th centuries, the letter I could sound like either an I or a J, so the pronunciation of Iesus was similar to today’s sound.  Welsh still retains the Iesu form but pronounces it “yessy”. &lt;br /&gt;
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http://www.takeourword.com/Issue068.html&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 3.51 24 March 2007&lt;br /&gt;
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:''Very'' interesting, but, alas, factual - so it doesn't have much chance of being included here! --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:19, 25 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Birth of Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Just curious, especially considering how big a deal the A.D./C.E. thing is here, but why is there no mention of Christs Birthdate?  Would think its sort of important given how much attention you've been heeding it.  Best Scholarly guess seems to be late September in 05 B.C., which is odd I think, since that not only would grammatically read as him being born five years before he was born (a lesser miracle?) but also would imply that A.D. and C.E. are equally, inaccurately, based on the date of Christ's birth, with only A.D. claiming as much, and incorrectly at that.&lt;br /&gt;
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==Case for Christ==&lt;br /&gt;
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I am reinserting the reference to ''Case for Christ''. It is not a &amp;quot;book review&amp;quot; to mention the book in one or two sentences. In fact, I think Conservapedia should serve as a jumping off point to further research on subjects, and that book is in itself a jumping off point to further research. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 01:11, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Name of page==&lt;br /&gt;
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This ought to be Jesus Christ, not just Jesus. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 03:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well from what I understand Christ is a [[Messiah|title]] not part of a name. It would be like renaming the George W. Bush article to President George W. Bush. If you're worried about someone typing in Jesus Christ and not able to get to the article that's not happening as Jesus Christ redirects to Jesus. [[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 03:33, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Sulgran, it is a highly secular idea of what it means.  His name is '''Jesus Christ''' to hundreds of millions of people throughout the World.  I don't think some online encyclopedia has a right to truncate his name. As Christians, we hold to these basic tenets: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Our Core Values&lt;br /&gt;
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#'''1.        We praise Jesus Christ as Lord and savior always'''.&lt;br /&gt;
#2.        Help others in their time of need, the lost, hungry and weak.&lt;br /&gt;
#3.        Spread the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven.&lt;br /&gt;
#4.        Love God the Father with all of our hearts, mind, body, and soul. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt; --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:18, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::5.        5. And ignore all the other 600-odd commandments, apart from:&lt;br /&gt;
::6.        6. Be insufferably smug at all times. &lt;br /&gt;
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:In that case, we should refer to 'King David Christ', too, since he called himself that (in the Hebrew, ''mashiach'') throughout the Psalms. But it wasn't his name, any more than it was Jesus's. The word is a ''Greek translation'', of all things! (But then, to be fair, so is 'Jesus'!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:29, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Indeed.  Christ is an honorific, not a name.  In fact, his name was actually Yeshua[[User:Daemon|Daemon]] 12:28, 14 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Well, we are not for everyone. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As a sysop, I decided that readers looking for information on [[Jesus]] would be better served if they found it in [[Jesus Christ]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:06, 17 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:08, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:It looks like it has been locked again.  There are a few ignorant spelling errors I would like to correct. [[User:MontyZuma|MontyZuma]] 19:09, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Simple Logic?==&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't see how this phrase:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Why would Jesus voluntarily submit to a crucifixion unless it was to be followed by a resurrection?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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is an example of simple logic. There could be any number of reasons why he would submit to his execution. I don't think even Christian's think he only did it to prove that he would be resurrected. He submitted to be executed simply because it would wash away the sins of man. This statement should be removed. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 12:58, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Surely Jesus while on Earth was a man born of woman and both feared and felt pain as a man would. Saying he went willingly because he knew he would rise again surely cheapens the sacrifice he made for us. He gave his life willingly and with great suffering for us without knowing what would become of him and, in this, made the most selfless sacrifice in all of history.&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a theologian but I would like to see a scholar of the Bible (as supposed to a simple follower like me) look at what I've suggested and see if the Bible supports this. I always believed that the human aspect of him made the sacrifice all the greater (and the sadder as such a great man died to such mockery and in such pain). --[[User:Trashbat|Trashbat]] 19:17, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This statement was put in again (although under a different guise). I removed it as it is neither logic, or the reason Jesus was crucified. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:35, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== The top picture should be on the right more so the top text can be on the left ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The top picture should be on the right more so the text can be on the left. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:16, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Nevermind i fixed it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:17, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*LOL...its okay for the pic to be on the left, as it was originally. ;-) --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 19:27, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::TK, i certainly don't want to get into a edit war over something trivial.  But people do read from left to right and at first I missed the upper text.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:39, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How can there be an edit war if you're the only person editing? [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 20:16, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Unprotection ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Glad to see you unprotected the article for the &amp;quot;Article improvement drive&amp;quot;.  I would make some edits but need to hit the sack. [[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 19:00, 10 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Other people in the Bible name Jesus ==&lt;br /&gt;
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While this is interesting, it's not appropriate for an article on Jesus Christ, which itself can get rather long.  I did include a brief acknowledgement of Joshua and Messiah in the opening paragraph so your additions in regard to Jesus Christ are not lost. I hope this makes sense to you. Thanks  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:26, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Lead ==&lt;br /&gt;
I wrote a new lead.  I hope its not to bold, but I wanted to get the point about just who Jesus is right upfront.  [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 20:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:While I am a Christian, I'm still thinking perhaps we should start with the words &amp;quot;In Christian theology&amp;quot;, before your new lead.  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:34, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*Learn together, please don't fall for the realitivists here.  This is a Christian, Conservative encyclopedia.  Ignore those wanting neutral statements, okay?  --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 06:23, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you objectively, empirically demonstrate the claim that Christ was born of a virgin, was the incarnation of God and, through dying, absolved the sins of his believers past, present and future?  Its perfectly fine to believe this, sure, but to claim it as outright fact is wrong, and not simply because the only source for these grand claims is the Bible (a book which contains within it numerous self-contradictory and inaccurate passages, but thats another discussion) but also that to attempt to pin him down as a concrete character defies the various interpretations which have lead to the factioning of the church based on different eschatologies.  Different christian religions all see christ in different lights.  Some believe he was a miracle worker, some a philosopher/teacher, some see him as a pure man of God and some as God himself.  &lt;br /&gt;
:Don't get me wrong, TK, I'm fully in favor of an un-neutral encyclopedia that promotes a specific &amp;quot;Christian, Conservative&amp;quot; narrative by selectively cherrypicking evidence and ignoring context to suggest as fact things that are not necessarily the case, and certainly the article can stay such as it is, offending the intellectual sensibilities of people like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin who saw truth in Christ's teachings but had &amp;quot;doubts as to his divinity,&amp;quot; by committing the intellectual dishonesty of stating these things as outright fact which only cite one text as the source for these extraordinary claims.  &lt;br /&gt;
:I just think though that if beliefs are going to be stated as fact that CPedia needs to come out front and decide which particular kind of christianity its going to promote as singularly true.  Which particular protestant reformations will CPedia then be in a position to declare as false?  Which Catholic sects?  Methodism?  Lutheranism?  Mormonism?  Making an &amp;quot;un-neutral&amp;quot; statement does get that snowball rolling after all, and if you've decided, TK, that neutrality is a bad thing, then riddle me this:  Which conservapedia contributors... no... which CPedia Sysops will have the fun to find that the CPedia says their particular belief in Christ is outright wrong?  I would really like to know.  You all going to vote on which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; are you?  I mean clearly here &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; is decided by the ideaology of the sysops as a group, and its not very likely that you all go to the exact same church, so who is it, specifically, who gets to have their Christian faith called false here?  Inquiring minds want to know.&lt;br /&gt;
:--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 12:27, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I think you got off on a tangent there.  The majority of practicing Christians would have no trouble with the portrayal of Jesus put forth by Lostcaesar; there's no need to identify every variant and condition to the point where gridlock trumps common sense.  And saying only one text is cited for Jesus is like taking all of the works of ancient Greece and putting them in one volume, then saying there's only one source that discusses ancient Greece. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:24, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I apologize if I was unclear.  I realize that there is archeological evidence that Jesus existed, but the problem isn't whether he lived or not.  Its his divinity.  The only source for such a claim is a selection of specific accounts of his life (others who witnessed him do not mention miracles, as an example) of which there is no supporting evidence.  The only you can say about his divinity, therefore, is that the bible claims it to be so and that people believe it.  Stating it as manifest fact simply because the majority agrees would be like, if the majority were also Star Trek fans, saying that Capt. James T Kirk is a real person.  Facts are not democratic and demand quantification.&lt;br /&gt;
:My other problem with &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; being used to argue the stament of beliefs as fact in this sense is that you admit there are a minority of Christians (myself among them) who do not necessarily believe in the divinity of Christ.  Say then that another section goes up in the article about how He should be worshipped then.  Do you populate that section with the majority religion at the expense of the others?  Say Catholicism over Protestantism?  Then that majority further divides over reformations and yields another majority, which then divides over another issue and then another, and before long you have Russian Nesting dolls, each being a majority, until the &amp;quot;minorities&amp;quot; put together outnumber the &amp;quot;majorities&amp;quot; 10 to 1.  &lt;br /&gt;
:When you allow lapsed standards for statements of fact such as this merely on the basis of it being the opinion of the majority, you get exactly that situation in the long run.  I notice, of course, that if a liberal were to make a similar unverifiable, intellectually dishonest claim on this site, he'd be hunted down with dogs.  For consistancy's sake, for legitimacy's sake, and not least of all for Christ's sake, the only thing that should be said as fact about Christ's divinity is that the bible claims it to be so.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 11:38, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.  Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: &amp;quot;Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.&amp;quot; ...The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, &amp;quot;Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.&amp;quot;'' (John 19:18-19, 21)&lt;br /&gt;
::What will we write?  &amp;quot;Jesus is the Son of God&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;some claim he said that he was the Son of God.&amp;quot; ? [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 12:40, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I think the best and simplest thing to say is some variant of &amp;quot;According to the Bible, Jesus was the son of god, born of a virgin, etc.&amp;quot; since I agree the bible is the most pivotal reference for alot of the history attributed to him.  The important thing to realize is that, and I dont mean this to be as condescenting as it might sound, but Jesus here is basically a character in a book, and as such since the only real source for the bulk of the extraordinary claims is that same book, the very simple quantifier &amp;quot;According to the bible...&amp;quot; used sparingly just to establish that context would, I think, be the best course of action.  Fair?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 13:41, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry to follow you here, RexMundane, I'll cease with this observation.  I generally agree with your modest tone here, and do not take offense.  I would like to add one clarification, though.  While the Bible is most often published in a single book, it is actually a collection of books (or scrolls), letters, etc.  The phrasing &amp;quot;According to the Bible...&amp;quot; seems to ickypedian to me.  This is a conservative encyclopedia.  I am not sure we need to cite the source of the statement in line, but perhaps we do.  I don't think conservapedia is about doubting the historocity of Jesus.  Am I wrong?  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 15:57, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Well the claim of Jesus's divinity though is entirely based on the aggregate statements made by the bible.  I agree that there was a Jesus, that significant events in the story of his life, as recanted in the bible, have been verified by archeological record, and it is entirely honest to say as much.  Claiming he was born of a virgin, is the son of God, etc., however rather demands a quantifier since it is, and I say this recognizing this as a &amp;quot;christian&amp;quot; cyclopedia, only a claim being made by one source (I am here refering to the selection of texts in the bible as a single group) and significant as that source is to discussing the nature of Jesus, I maintain that it is wrong to say these things as objective fact when, outside of the claims made by that one source, there is no other empirical proof to say that, for instance, the ressurection was a real event.  If the event exists, basically, only as an event in the story the Bible tells, that should be made explicit.  &lt;br /&gt;
:As I say, I consider myself a christian in a sort of Thomas Jefferson sense, and don't require him to have been supernatural or even for the bible to have been accurate in order to be able to glean moral lessons from the story of his life.  I realize that my opinion is not as important as the bible's in this regard, certainly as far as conveying the story of Christ, but the important thing is that the story is, basically, the bible's version.  An important version to be sure, but it does a disservice to not make that clear, I rather think.  Given too how I don't actually see how saying something like &amp;quot;The Bible says Jesus was X&amp;quot; instead of simply &amp;quot;Jesus was X&amp;quot; in any way changes a persons interpretation of Christ or his story in any significant way.  I'm not saying to call it a lie, just to acknowledge that the primary basis for the claims is the bible itself.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 17:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Jesus' divinity is known by revelation, making it a fact that we can be certain about.  If you wish to talk about sources, a section would be appropriate, where we can talk about the witness of the Bible, the Church Fathers, and any of the many miracles wrought in his name in the two thousand years since his resurrection.  But, just as we would not qualify every statement about Julius Caesar being emperor of Rome, we should not qualify what we say about the Son of God. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 19:42, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The distinction is that Ceaser being the emperor of rome is not disputed by anyone, whereas the nature of the divinity of Christ, even among Christians, is under dispute.  &amp;quot;Jesus' divinity is known by revelation,&amp;quot; only to those who know it, not to everyone.  Among even people who believe in the truth of his teachings there are legitimate arguments as to whether or not the account of the bible regarding the virgin birth, miracles, etc., is true, or even necessary.  All I'm asking for is that such statements of divinity which historians and christians themselves have disagreements on simply be clarified as being the bible's account.  Saying its not necessary simply because the majority of christians believe in it sends us down the rabbit hole of deciding which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; by majority as well.  I'm sorry, please help me here, why is there such opposition to simply adding the phrase &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; once or twice?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 10:23, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with Rex.  Stating that Jesus *is* the Son of God unequivocally leaves Conservapedia in the position of endorsing Christianity as objectively true, when in fact this isn't verifiable, and the majority of people on earth are not Christian.  A statement saying &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;According to the Christian faith&amp;quot; as a preface would make this more objective. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 13:11, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::1) This is a Christian encyclopedia.  2) While you may not think it is 'verifiable', others are not obliged to agree with this conclusion or approach.  3) Truth is not determined by mere popular whimsy, ergo the number of Christians is not directly relevant, though the position of the faith as the plurality, or near plurality position amongst different religions ought to give cause to reevaluate your position, even if you continue with the assumption that sheer number is directly relevant. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 16:34, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::1) No, it isn't a Christian encyclopedia; it's a conservative encyclopedia QED.  Not all conservatives are Christians, and even if they were it wouldn't make the question of Christ's divinity any more or less objectively verifiable.  2) It isn't just me that believes that the question of Christ's divinity is unverifiable.  Such a question is one of faith, not of science, and as such is purely subjective.  You may personally believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior, and noone is suggesting that you should believe otherwise, but you should recognize that this position can't be objectively proven.  3) I'm not making an argumentum ad populum, I'm simply pointing out that Conservapedia should not be in the business of claiming that one religion is true over all others, and it's sheer hubris to do otherwise.  [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 11:39, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You sound as if you consider your statement (2) to be &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot;, since you give no argument for it other than to repeat the assertion.  Whatever the case, what is &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot; is that the frontpage contains a Daily Bible Verse.  Please example this [http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070306/26179_Conservapedia_Challenges_%27Anti-Christian%27_Wiki.htm useful text]. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 13:06, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Regardless of the opinion of the Christian Post, the stated purpose of this website is to provide a counterpoint to perceived liberal bias in Wikipedia, not to advance Christianity as the only true religion.  There are a great many non-Christian conservatives.  If you haven't guessed by now, you're speaking to one.  With regards to verifiability, the fact is that the entire basis upon which the divinity of Christ rests is the Bible itself, which is not an objective source, it's a work of faith.  I appreciate that you have a strong faith, but just as Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Conservapedia should not be one either.  To claim that one religion is true over all others rather than to give a dispassionate overview of the facts surrounding those religions is to stop being an encyclopedia, and to start being a tract.  To state &amp;quot;Christians believe Christ to be the Son of God&amp;quot; is a fact which can be proven.  To state &amp;quot;Christ is the Son of God&amp;quot; may or may not be true, but cannot be proven independant of the Bible.  This in and of itself violates Conservapedia commandment 1.  [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:12, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The Gospels and the testimonies and facts along centuries are &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot;. They are holly books and facts as well as scientifically truth as other history book are according to History science. What you have to remember is that men are undoubtedly flash and soul. Make your statements using both and you will see as John the Apostle teched, the love that is there and that is a reality objectively verifiable. Any man can be a witness of that simple truth. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 14:25, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The Bible may be held by some to be holy, but that view isn't held by all (indeed, it's only held by a minority of the world's population).  Other holy texts do not claim that Jesus was the son of God.  Conservapedia should not be in the business of stating that one holy text is true and others are false, because this is a matter of faith, not fact. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 16:27, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Jesus was Jewish! ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jesus was Jewish... his personal religious beliefs are central to a belief in him, yet this article makes no mention of what Jesus believed.  This glaring omission can only be seen as an effort to force history into alignment with current ideals. {{unsigned|Newsdan}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That's a little harsh. Yes, Yeshua was Jewish. And as the site grows I'm sure the article will come to reflect this. This is a fairly new site, Newsdan - it didn't appear fully formed and perfect :) [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 14:34, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Like most of us did not know he was a Jew. There is nothing wrong with him being Jewish, nothing!--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 14:36, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Will... the problem is that the article is locked, and yet was done so without adding this fact.  --[[User:Newsdan|Newsdan]] 14:42, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:You can use this talk section to preview to the sysops anything you'd like to add. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt; 14:44, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'd suggest providing the wording you would like to see included and where this placement would occur.  As Fox has stated, the sysops are more than happy to see that constructive edits are included. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 14:49, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Jesus was ethnically Jewish, but he came to fulfill the Jewish faith, thereby founding the Christian Church.  [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 17:22, 19 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=188589</id>
		<title>Jerome</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=188589"/>
		<updated>2007-06-04T07:45:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: sorry, i did not know it was a controversial claim, here is the source from Jerome himself&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Saint '''Jerome''' (Latin: ''Hieronymus''), who lived from 342 – 30 September 420, is the most famous Catholic biblical scholar of antiquity, and perhaps of all time.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome was born in Stridonia, on the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia, and given the Latin name ''Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus''.  He was, from his infancy, raised a Catholic,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;St. Jerome, &amp;quot;Epistle to Theophilus of Alexandria&amp;quot; 82.2.2; avaliable in ''Corpus Scriptorum Christianorum Orientalium'' (Vienna, 1865-) vol. 55, pp. 107-119.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and was baptized in Rome.  At Rome he learned Latin and Greek.  Soon, however, desiring to give himself fully to Christ and to the knowledge of the Scriptures, Jerome journeyed East, studying at Antioch.  He then, in order to purify his soul of all youthful temptations, set out into the desert (of Chalcis, south-west of Antioch).  Thus did he act in imitation of Christ, St. John the Baptist, and the Desert Fathers.  He found a converted Jew to teach him Hebrew (and Chaldaic).  Additionally, Jerome was ordained a priest at Antioch.  Eventually he made his way to Constantinople to study the Scriptures under the renowned scholar St. Gregory Nazianzus (“the Theologian”).  Thereafter he journeyed to Rome, on ecclesiastical business, and was admitted into the court of Pope Damasus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Damasus requested from Jerome, by then a master of the Scriptures and of the languages used in the sacred texts, that he would produce a Latin translation of the Bible.  The Latin texts then in circulation were insufficient and in need of correction.  This monumental task would take Jerome many years, and, following the Pope’s death, Jerome traveled to Bethlehem, to a monastery near the site of Jesus’ birth, to complete his work.  Jerome gathered all manner of ancient manuscripts to aid him in his task, examining each text carefully in order to establish a proper edition.  Eventually, Jerome produced his Latin Bible, the New Testament translated afresh from the original Greek, and the Old Testament, with the exception of certain books (whose previous translation he choose not to alter), translated afresh from the Hebrew and the Greek.  This edition, known as the ''Vulgate'', would come to be the accepted Bible of Western Christendom for over a thousand years, and is still valued by Biblical scholars today for its expertise, and is consulted in the production of modern editions of the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By no means can Jerome’s profound scholarship be limited to the ''Vulgate'', for Jerome wrote many theological works, taught many students, and was at all times engaged in the questions of his day, writing his expert answers to inquiries from all sorts of fellow Christians, including the likes of the great St. Augustine himself.  But, most importantly, Jerome was constantly at battle with the heretics of the day, exposing their errors by appeal to the Holy Scriptures and the faith of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome constantly upheld the divine nature of the Scriptures, affirming that, ultimately, God is the author of the Bible.  It was his reverence for the Word, and for the Lord, that lead Jerome in all his pursuits.  Neither did Jerome doubt that the human authors were chosen for a reason, and he regularly set about investigating their language and historical setting to better understand the agency and message of God.  Jerome considered the Bible free from all error or deception; thus he wrote, “The Lord's words are true; for Him to say it, means that it is.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Jerome, ''In Mich''., 4:1.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pope Benedict XV, in his encyclical ''Spiritus Paraclitus'', held Jerome to be an example of true Biblical scholarship, and affirmed Catholic doctrine concerning the inspiration of all Scripture, and thus necessarily its inerrancy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Footnotes ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div class=&amp;quot;references-small&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jerome&amp;diff=188584</id>
		<title>Talk:Jerome</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jerome&amp;diff=188584"/>
		<updated>2007-06-04T07:40:05Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* St. Jerome */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== St. Jerome ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born at Stridon, a town on the confines of Dalmatia and Pannonia, '''about the year 340-2'''; died at Bethlehem, 30 September, 420. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''He went to Rome, probably about 360, where he was baptized, and became interested in ecclesiastical matters.''' From Rome he went to Trier, famous for its schools, and there began his theological studies. Later he went to Aquileia, and towards 373 he set out on a journey to the East. He settled first in Antioch, where he heard Apollinaris of Laodicea, one of the first exegetes of that time and not yet separated from the Church. From 374-9 Jerome led an ascetical life in the desert of Chalcis, south-west of Antioch. Ordained priest at Antioch, he went to Constantinople (380-81), where a friendship sprang up between him and St. Gregory of Nazianzus. From 382 to August 385 he made another sojourn in Rome, not far from Pope Damasus. When the latter died (11 December, 384) his position became a very difficult one. His harsh criticisms had made him bitter enemies, who tried to ruin him. After a few months he was compelled to leave Rome. By way of Antioch and Alexandria he reached Bethlehem, in 386. He settled there in a monastery near a convent founded by two Roman ladies, Paula and Eustochium, who followed him to Palestine. Henceforth he led a life of asceticism and study; but even then he was troubled by controversies which will be mentioned later, one with Rufinus and the other with the Pelagians. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''''He was not born a Catholic!''''' --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 02:11, 4 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:What do you mean?  That he was not baptised as an infant does not mean he wasn't born and raised a Catholic. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 03:40, 4 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Nicene_Creed&amp;diff=188090</id>
		<title>Nicene Creed</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Nicene_Creed&amp;diff=188090"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T19:53:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: The creed of constantinople was not actually modeled on the creed of 324, its a seperate creed - see J. N. D. Kelly's history of creeds&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Nicene Creed''' is the ancient Christian Creed formulated by the Council of Constantinople in 381, and affirmed by the Council of Chalcedon in 451.  It is so called because it expresses the “Nicene faith”, that is, it is in accord with the creed articulated by the Council of Nicene in 324.  It states the nature of the divine Trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and is often regarded as the core doctrine of Christianity. Many Christian denominations use [[catechisms]] that require students to memorize the Nicene Creed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western (Roman Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) branches of Christianity have different versions of the creed, the Western church including the much-disputed ''filioque clause.'' The Eastern version states that the Holy Spirit &amp;quot;proceeds from the Father,&amp;quot; while the Western version states that it procedes &amp;quot;from the Father ''and the Son''&amp;quot; (''filioque'' in Latin). The filioque clause was the nominal reason for the [[Great Schism]] between the two branches of the Church in 1054, although political factors played a role as well.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One familiar English translation, that used by the Episcopal Church, reads:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in one God, &lt;br /&gt;
:the Father, the Almighty, &lt;br /&gt;
:maker of heaven and earth, &lt;br /&gt;
:of all that is, seen and unseen. &lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, &lt;br /&gt;
:the only Son of God, &lt;br /&gt;
:eternally begotten of the Father, &lt;br /&gt;
:God from God, Light from Light, &lt;br /&gt;
:true God from true God, &lt;br /&gt;
:begotten, not made, &lt;br /&gt;
:of one Being with the Father. &lt;br /&gt;
:Through him all things were made. &lt;br /&gt;
:For us and for our salvation &lt;br /&gt;
:he came down from heaven: &lt;br /&gt;
:by the power of the Holy Spirit &lt;br /&gt;
:he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, &lt;br /&gt;
:and was made man. &lt;br /&gt;
:For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; &lt;br /&gt;
:he suffered death and was buried. &lt;br /&gt;
:On the third day he rose again &lt;br /&gt;
:in accordance with the Scriptures; &lt;br /&gt;
:he ascended into heaven &lt;br /&gt;
:and is seated at the right hand of the Father. &lt;br /&gt;
:He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, &lt;br /&gt;
:and his kingdom will have no end. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, &lt;br /&gt;
:who proceeds from the Father and the Son. &lt;br /&gt;
:With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. &lt;br /&gt;
:He has spoken through the Prophets. &lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. &lt;br /&gt;
:We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. &lt;br /&gt;
:We look for the resurrection of the dead, &lt;br /&gt;
:and the life of the world to come. Amen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Nicene Creed: Eastern Orthodox ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Eastern Orthodox Church]] maintains that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity,Who proceeds from the Father only (John 15:26). The Eastern Orthodox Church firmly denies the teaching that the Holy Spirit was created by the Son. The Church states that the &amp;quot;filioque&amp;quot; phrase is an error and is not found in the Scripture. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Eastern Orthodox Church believes that the &amp;quot;filioque&amp;quot; introduces a teaching of a double procession of the Holy Spirit and refers to two origins of the Spirit's existence, thus denying the unity of the Godhead. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe in one God, &lt;br /&gt;
Father Almighty, &lt;br /&gt;
Creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, &lt;br /&gt;
the only-begotten Son of God, &lt;br /&gt;
begotten of the Father before all ages.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Light of Light, true God of true God, &lt;br /&gt;
begotten not created, &lt;br /&gt;
of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Who for us men and for our salvation &lt;br /&gt;
came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. &lt;br /&gt;
He suffered and was buried.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And He rose on the third day, &lt;br /&gt;
according to the Scriptures.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. &lt;br /&gt;
His kingdom shall have no end.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, &lt;br /&gt;
''Who proceeds from the Father'', &lt;br /&gt;
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, &lt;br /&gt;
Who spoke through the prophets.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.&lt;br /&gt;
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.&lt;br /&gt;
I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[http://www.goarch.org Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Religion]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Nicene_Creed&amp;diff=188088</id>
		<title>Nicene Creed</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Nicene_Creed&amp;diff=188088"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T19:51:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: when the word catholic entered christian creeds in this place it was in a delimiting and specific sense - this clarification is therefore incorrect&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''Nicene Creed''' was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, and revised at the Second Ecumenical Council in 381 AD. It states the nature of the divine Trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and is often regarded as the core doctrine of Christianity. Many Christian denominations use [[catechisms]] that require students to memorize the Nicene Creed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Western (Roman Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) branches of Christianity have different versions of the creed, the Western church including the much-disputed ''filioque clause.'' The Eastern version states that the Holy Spirit &amp;quot;proceeds from the Father,&amp;quot; while the Western version states that it procedes &amp;quot;from the Father ''and the Son''&amp;quot; (''filioque'' in Latin). The filioque clause was the nominal reason for the [[Great Schism]] between the two branches of the Church in 1054, although political factors played a role as well.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One familiar English translation, that used by the Episcopal Church, reads:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in one God, &lt;br /&gt;
:the Father, the Almighty, &lt;br /&gt;
:maker of heaven and earth, &lt;br /&gt;
:of all that is, seen and unseen. &lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, &lt;br /&gt;
:the only Son of God, &lt;br /&gt;
:eternally begotten of the Father, &lt;br /&gt;
:God from God, Light from Light, &lt;br /&gt;
:true God from true God, &lt;br /&gt;
:begotten, not made, &lt;br /&gt;
:of one Being with the Father. &lt;br /&gt;
:Through him all things were made. &lt;br /&gt;
:For us and for our salvation &lt;br /&gt;
:he came down from heaven: &lt;br /&gt;
:by the power of the Holy Spirit &lt;br /&gt;
:he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, &lt;br /&gt;
:and was made man. &lt;br /&gt;
:For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; &lt;br /&gt;
:he suffered death and was buried. &lt;br /&gt;
:On the third day he rose again &lt;br /&gt;
:in accordance with the Scriptures; &lt;br /&gt;
:he ascended into heaven &lt;br /&gt;
:and is seated at the right hand of the Father. &lt;br /&gt;
:He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, &lt;br /&gt;
:and his kingdom will have no end. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, &lt;br /&gt;
:who proceeds from the Father and the Son. &lt;br /&gt;
:With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. &lt;br /&gt;
:He has spoken through the Prophets. &lt;br /&gt;
:We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. &lt;br /&gt;
:We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. &lt;br /&gt;
:We look for the resurrection of the dead, &lt;br /&gt;
:and the life of the world to come. Amen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Nicene Creed: Eastern Orthodox ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Eastern Orthodox Church]] maintains that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity,Who proceeds from the Father only (John 15:26). The Eastern Orthodox Church firmly denies the teaching that the Holy Spirit was created by the Son. The Church states that the &amp;quot;filioque&amp;quot; phrase is an error and is not found in the Scripture. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Eastern Orthodox Church believes that the &amp;quot;filioque&amp;quot; introduces a teaching of a double procession of the Holy Spirit and refers to two origins of the Spirit's existence, thus denying the unity of the Godhead. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe in one God, &lt;br /&gt;
Father Almighty, &lt;br /&gt;
Creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, &lt;br /&gt;
the only-begotten Son of God, &lt;br /&gt;
begotten of the Father before all ages.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Light of Light, true God of true God, &lt;br /&gt;
begotten not created, &lt;br /&gt;
of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Who for us men and for our salvation &lt;br /&gt;
came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. &lt;br /&gt;
He suffered and was buried.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And He rose on the third day, &lt;br /&gt;
according to the Scriptures.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. &lt;br /&gt;
His kingdom shall have no end.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, &lt;br /&gt;
''Who proceeds from the Father'', &lt;br /&gt;
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, &lt;br /&gt;
Who spoke through the prophets.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.&lt;br /&gt;
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.&lt;br /&gt;
I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[http://www.goarch.org Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Religion]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Articles_That_Need_To_Be_Created&amp;diff=187866</id>
		<title>Conservapedia:Articles That Need To Be Created</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Articles_That_Need_To_Be_Created&amp;diff=187866"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T14:17:21Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: i created these two&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Please help us create these new articles and please [[Conservapedia: footnotes - technical help |footnote]] the articles and make the articles better than their counterparts at [[Wikipedia]]!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[William F. Albright]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Oswald T. Allis]]&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;strike&amp;gt;[[Arguments for the existence of God]]&amp;lt;/strike&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gleason Archer]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Azusa Street Revival]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Greg L. Bahnsen]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Francis J. Beckwith]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Bible archaeology]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Craig L. Blomberg]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Millar Burrows]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Edward John Carnell]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Evidential Christian Apologetics]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[G.K. Chesterton]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Chrysostom]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gordon Clark]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Cosmological argument]]&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;strike&amp;gt;[[William Lane Craig]]&amp;lt;/strike&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Culture War]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Dallas Theological Seminary]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[John Frame]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Norman Geisler]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Nelson Glueck]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Douglas Groothuis]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[William Henry Green]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Simon Greenleaf]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Hank Hanegraaff]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Carl F. H. Henry]]&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;lt;strike&amp;gt;[[Jerome]]&amp;lt;/strike&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Kenneth Kitchen]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Greg Koukl]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Peter Kreeft]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Alister McGrath]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[John Warwick Montgomery]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[J. P. Moreland]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[George Muller]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[J. I. Packer]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pascal's Wager]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Alvin Plantinga]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Clark Pinnock]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Presuppositional apologetics]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[William Mitchell Ramsay]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Francis A. Schaeffer]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Secular Progressive Movement]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[R. C. Sproul]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[James Hudson Tayler]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[[Teleological argument]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Cornelius Van Til]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Welsh Revival]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Merrill Unger]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Smith Wigglesworth]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Bryant Wood]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[A. N. Sherwin-White]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[A. W. Tozer]] &lt;br /&gt;
*[[N.T. Wright]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Edwin Yamauchi]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Robert Dick Wilson]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Ravi Zacharias]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=187864</id>
		<title>Jerome</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=187864"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T14:15:29Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Saint '''Jerome''' (Latin: ''Hieronymus''), who lived from 342 – 30 September 420, is the most famous Catholic biblical scholar of antiquity, and perhaps of all time.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome was born in Stridonia, on the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia, and given the Latin name ''Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus''.  He was, from his infancy, raised a Catholic, and was baptized in Rome.  At Rome he learned Latin and Greek.  Soon, however, desiring to give himself fully to Christ and to the knowledge of the Scriptures, Jerome journeyed East, studying at Antioch.  He then, in order to purify his soul of all youthful temptations, set out into the desert (of Chalcis, south-west of Antioch).  Thus did he act in imitation of Christ, St. John the Baptist, and the Desert Fathers.  He found a converted Jew to teach him Hebrew (and Chaldaic).  Additionally, Jerome was ordained a priest at Antioch.  Eventually he made his way to Constantinople to study the Scriptures under the renowned scholar St. Gregory Nazianzus (“the Theologian”).  Thereafter he journeyed to Rome, on ecclesiastical business, and was admitted into the court of Pope Damasus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Damasus requested from Jerome, by then a master of the Scriptures and of the languages used in the sacred texts, that he would produce a Latin translation of the Bible.  The Latin texts then in circulation were insufficient and in need of correction.  This monumental task would take Jerome many years, and, following the Pope’s death, Jerome traveled to Bethlehem, to a monastery near the site of Jesus’ birth, to complete his work.  Jerome gathered all manner of ancient manuscripts to aid him in his task, examining each text carefully in order to establish a proper edition.  Eventually, Jerome produced his Latin Bible, the New Testament translated afresh from the original Greek, and the Old Testament, with the exception of certain books (whose previous translation he choose not to alter), translated afresh from the Hebrew and the Greek.  This edition, known as the ''Vulgate'', would come to be the accepted Bible of Western Christendom for over a thousand years, and is still valued by Biblical scholars today for its expertise, and is consulted in the production of modern editions of the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By no means can Jerome’s profound scholarship be limited to the ''Vulgate'', for Jerome wrote many theological works, taught many students, and was at all times engaged in the questions of his day, writing his expert answers to inquiries from all sorts of fellow Christians, including the likes of the great St. Augustine himself.  But, most importantly, Jerome was constantly at battle with the heretics of the day, exposing their errors by appeal to the Holy Scriptures and the faith of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome constantly upheld the divine nature of the Scriptures, affirming that, ultimately, God is the author of the Bible.  It was his reverence for the Word, and for the Lord, that lead Jerome in all his pursuits.  Neither did Jerome doubt that the human authors were chosen for a reason, and he regularly set about investigating their language and historical setting to better understand the agency and message of God.  Jerome considered the Bible free from all error or deception; thus he wrote, “The Lord's words are true; for Him to say it, means that it is.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Jerome, ''In Mich''., 4:1.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pope Benedict XV, in his encyclical ''Spiritus Paraclitus'', held Jerome to be an example of true Biblical scholarship, and affirmed Catholic doctrine concerning the inspiration of all Scripture, and thus necessarily its inerrancy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Footnotes ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div class=&amp;quot;references-small&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=187863</id>
		<title>Jerome</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=187863"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T14:13:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Saint '''Jerome''' (Latin: ''Hieronymus''), who lived from 342 – 30 September 420, is the most famous Catholic biblical scholar of antiquity, and perhaps of all time.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome was born in Stridonia, on the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia, and given the Latin name ''Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus''.  He was, from his infancy, raised a Catholic, and was baptized in Rome.  At Rome he learned Latin and Greek.  Soon, however, desiring to give himself fully to Christ and to the knowledge of the Scriptures, Jerome journeyed East, studying at Antioch.  He then, in order to purify his soul of all youthful temptations, set out into the desert (of Chalcis, south-west of Antioch).  Thus did he act in imitation of Christ, St. John the Baptist, and the Desert Fathers.  He found a converted Jew to teach him Hebrew (and Chaldaic).  Additionally, Jerome was ordained a priest at Antioch.  Eventually he made his way to Constantinople to study the Scriptures under the renowned scholar St. Gregory Nazianzus (“the Theologian”).  Thereafter he journeyed to Rome, on ecclesiastical business, and was admitted into the court of Pope Damasus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Damasus requested from Jerome, by then a master of the Scriptures and of the languages used in the sacred texts, that he would produce a Latin translation of the Bible.  The Latin texts then in circulation were insufficient and in need of correction.  This monumental task would take Jerome many years, and, following the Pope’s death, Jerome traveled to Bethlehem, to a monastery near the site of Jesus’ birth, to complete his work.  Jerome gathered all manner of ancient manuscripts to aid him in his task, examining each text carefully in order to establish a proper edition.  Eventually, Jerome produced his Latin Bible, the New Testament translated afresh from the original Greek, and the Old Testament, with the exception of certain books (whose previous translation he choose not to alter), translated afresh from the Hebrew and the Greek.  This edition, known as the ''Vulgate'', would come to be the accepted Bible of Western Christendom for over a thousand years, and is still valued by Biblical scholars today for its expertise, and is consulted in the production of modern editions of the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By no means can Jerome’s profound scholarship be limited to the ''Vulgate'', for Jerome wrote many theological works, taught many students, and was at all times engaged in the questions of his day, writing his expert answers to inquiries from all sorts of fellow Christians, including the likes of the great St. Augustine himself.  But, most importantly, Jerome was constantly at battle with the heretics of the day, exposing their errors by appeal to the Holy Scriptures and the faith of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome constantly upheld the divine nature of the Scriptures, affirming that, ultimately, God is the author of the Bible.  It was his reverence for the Word, and for the Lord, that lead Jerome in all his pursuits.  Neither did Jerome doubt that the human authors were chosen for a reason, and he regularly set about investigating their language and historical setting to better understand the agency and message of God.  Jerome considered the Bible free from all error or deception; thus he wrote, “The Lord's words are true; for Him to say it, means that it is.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Jerome, ''In Mich''., 4:1.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pope Benedict XV, in his encyclical ''Spiritus Paraclitus'', held Jerome to be an example of true Biblical scholarship, and affirmed Catholic doctrine concerning the inspiration of all Scripture, and thus necessarily its inerrancy.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=187861</id>
		<title>Jerome</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Jerome&amp;diff=187861"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T14:12:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: page creation&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Saint '''Jerome''' (Latin: ''Hieronymus''), who lived from 342 – 30 September 420, is the most famous Catholic biblical scholar of antiquity, and perhaps of all time.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome was born in Stridonia, on the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia, and given the Latin name ''Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus''.  He was, from his infancy, raised a Catholic, and was baptized in Rome.  At Rome he learned Latin and Greek.  Soon, however, desiring to give himself fully to Christ and to the knowledge of the Scriptures, Jerome journeyed East, studying at Antioch.  He then, in order to purify his soul of all youthful temptations, set out into the desert (of Chalcis, south-west of Antioch), in imitation of Christ, St. John the Baptist, and the Desert Fathers.  He found a converted Jew to teach him Hebrew (and Chaldaic).  Additionally, Jerome was ordained a priest at Antioch.  Eventually he made his way to Constantinople to study the Scriptures under the renowned scholar St. Gregory Nazianzus (“the Theologian”).  Thereafter he journeyed to Rome, on ecclesiastical business, and was admitted into the court of Pope Damasus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Damasus requested from Jerome, by then a master of the Scriptures and of the languages used in the sacred texts, that he would produce a Latin translation of the Bible.  The Latin texts then in circulation were insufficient and in need of correction.  This monumental task would take Jerome many years, and, following the Pope’s death, Jerome traveled to Bethlehem, to a monastery near the site of Jesus’ birth, to complete his work.  Jerome gathered all manner of ancient manuscripts to aid him in his task, examining each text carefully in order to establish a proper edition.  Eventually, Jerome produced his Latin Bible, the New Testament translated afresh from the original Greek, and the Old Testament, with the exception of certain books (whose previous translation he choose not to alter), translated afresh from the Hebrew and the Greek.  This edition, known as the ''Vulgate'', would come to be the accepted Bible of Western Christendom for over a thousand years, and is still valued by Biblical scholars today for its expertise, and is consulted in the production of modern editions of the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By no means can Jerome’s profound scholarship be limited to the ''Vulgate'', for Jerome wrote many theological works, taught many students, and was at all times engaged in the questions of his day, writing his expert answers to inquiries from all sorts of fellow Christians, including the likes of the great St. Augustine himself.  But, most importantly, Jerome was constantly at battle with the heretics of the day, exposing their errors by appeal to the Holy Scriptures and the faith of the Church.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Jerome constantly upheld the divine nature of the Scriptures, affirming that, ultimately, God is the author of the Bible.  It was his reverence for the Word, and for the Lord, that lead Jerome in all his pursuits.  Neither did Jerome doubt that the human authors were chosen for a reason, and he regularly set about investigating their language and historical setting to better understand the agency and message of God.  Jerome considered the Bible free from all error or deception; thus he wrote, “The Lord's words are true; for Him to say it, means that it is.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Jerome, ''In Mich''., 4:1.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pope Benedict XV, in his encyclical ''Spiritus Paraclitus'', held Jerome to be an example of true Biblical scholarship, and affirmed Catholic doctrine concerning the inspiration of all Scripture, and thus necessarily its inerrancy.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187844</id>
		<title>William Lane Craig</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187844"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T13:28:09Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''William Lane Craig''' is a renowned Christian scholar, philosopher, and apologist.  He currently holds the position of Research Professor of Philosophy at the Talbot School of Theology in La Miranda, California.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born 23 August 1949, at age sixteen W. L. Craig pledged his life to Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior.  Thus began a career, indeed a calling, dedicated to the Gospel.  Craig completed a B. A. at Wheaton College in 1971, and two M. A. degrees at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1974 and 1975 (in the philosophy of religion and church history), and a Ph. D. from the University of Birmingham (England) in 1977.  Craig also received a D. Theol. from the University of Munich in 1984, where he studied under the famous Wolfhart Pannenberg.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Craig is known for his Christian apologetics, specifically concerning the Resurrection, the existence of God, and theocentric ethics.  In numerous publications, and public debates, Craig has argued that the truth of the physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most reasonable explanation for the known historical facts, that God’s existence can be known by examining causation, and that the foundation for ethical action is necessarily belief in God.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187841</id>
		<title>William Lane Craig</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187841"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T13:27:49Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''William Lane Craig''' is a renowned Christian scholar, philosopher, and apologist.  He currently holds the position of Research Professor of Philosophy at the Talbot School of Theology in La Miranda, California.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born 23 August 1949, at age sixteen W. L. Craig pledged his life to Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior.  Thus began a career, indeed a calling, dedicated to the Gospel.  Craig completed a B. A. at Wheaton College in 1971, and two M. A. degrees at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1974 and 1975 (in the philosophy of religion and church history), and a Pd. D. from the University of Birmingham (England) in 1977.  Craig also received a D. Theol. from the University of Munich in 1984, where he studied under the famous Wolfhart Pannenberg.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Craig is known for his Christian apologetics, specifically concerning the Resurrection, the existence of God, and theocentric ethics.  In numerous publications, and public debates, Craig has argued that the truth of the physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most reasonable explanation for the known historical facts, that God’s existence can be known by examining causation, and that the foundation for ethical action is necessarily belief in God.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187840</id>
		<title>William Lane Craig</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187840"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T13:27:24Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''William Lane Craig''' is a renowned Christian scholar, philosopher, and apologist.  He currently holds the position of Research Professor of Philosophy at the Talbot School of Theology in La Miranda, California.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born 23 August 1949, at age 16 W. L. Craig pledged his life of Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior.  Thus began a career, indeed a calling, dedicated to the Gospel.  Craig completed a B. A. at Wheaton College in 1971, and two M. A. degrees at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1974 and 1975 (in the philosophy of religion and church history), and a Pd. D. from the University of Birmingham (England) in 1977.  Craig also received a D. Theol. from the University of Munich in 1984, where he studied under the famous Wolfhart Pannenberg.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Craig is known for his Christian apologetics, specifically concerning the Resurrection, the existence of God, and theocentric ethics.  In numerous publications, and public debates, Craig has argued that the truth of the physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most reasonable explanation for the known historical facts, that God’s existence can be known by examining causation, and that the foundation for ethical action is necessarily belief in God.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=187838</id>
		<title>User:Lostcaesar</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=187838"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T13:26:40Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Userpage&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Articles I've made:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Second Epistle of Peter]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Matthew (evangelist)]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[William Lane Craig]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noteworthy contributions:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Jesus Christ]] (intro);&lt;br /&gt;
[[The Crusades]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Isaiah (Biblical book)]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[James|St. James the Greater, Apostle]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=187836</id>
		<title>User:Lostcaesar</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=187836"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T13:26:22Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Userpage&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Articles I've made:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Second Epistle of Peter]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Matthew (evangelist)]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[William Lane Craig]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noteworthy contributions:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Jesus Christ]] (intro);&lt;br /&gt;
[[The Crusades]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Isaiah (Biblical book)]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[James]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187835</id>
		<title>William Lane Craig</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Lane_Craig&amp;diff=187835"/>
		<updated>2007-06-03T13:25:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: article creation, please expand&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;William Lane Craig is a renowned Christian scholar, philosopher, and apologist.  He currently holds the position of Research Professor of Philosophy at the Talbot School of Theology in La Miranda, California.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born 23 August 1949, at age 16 W. L. Craig pledged his life of Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior.  Thus began a career, indeed a calling, dedicated to the Gospel.  Craig completed a B. A. at Wheaton College in 1971, and two M. A. degrees at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1974 and 1975 (in the philosophy of religion and church history), and a Pd. D. from the University of Birmingham (England) in 1977.  Craig also received a D. Theol. from the University of Munich in 1984, where he studied under the famous Wolfhart Pannenberg.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Craig is known for his Christian apologetics, specifically concerning the Resurrection, the existence of God, and theocentric ethics.  In numerous publications, and public debates, Craig has argued that the truth of the physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most reasonable explanation for the known historical facts, that God’s existence can be known by examining causation, and that the foundation for ethical action is necessarily belief in God.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=James_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184860</id>
		<title>James the Apostle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=James_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184860"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T19:59:08Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:James greater.jpg|left]]&lt;br /&gt;
'''James''' (Saint James in [[Catholic]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodox]] traditions) was one of the most prominent Apostles of [[Jesus]].  This Apostle is known as &amp;quot;James the Greater&amp;quot; because there was another Apostle of Jesus also known as James (&amp;quot;James the Lesser&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was a son of Zebedee and the brother of another Apostle, [[John the Apostle|John]].  Both were given the nickname &amp;quot;sons of thunder.&amp;quot;  They apparently came from a family that ran a successful fishing business, as demonstrated by a reference in [[Mark]] to how the business had hired servants.  &amp;quot;And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.&amp;quot;  Mark 1:20.  [[Saint Peter|Peter]] and [[Andrew the Apostle|Andrew]] were also partners in the same fishing business, suggesting that all four (James, John, Peter and Andrew) enjoyed some success.  Peter, James and John were the Apostles closest to Jesus during His ministry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is possible that James was a first cousin of Jesus and knew Him when they were children.  James' mother was Salome, who could have been the sister of Jesus' mother, [[Virgin Mary|Mary]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was present when Jesus resurrected Jairus' daughter, when Jesus underwent a transfiguration, and when Jesus went through His agony in the [[Garden of Gethsemane]].  James (and his brother John) made the mistake of seeking authority over others, which earned him a rebuke from Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was older than John, and James was the first Apostle to be [[martyr|martyred]].  The beheading of James by [[King Herod Agrippa I]] in [[Rome]] is recorded in the [[Book of Acts|Acts of the Apostles]] of the [[New Testament]] (Acts 12:2), and occurred between A.D. 41 and 44, only about ten years after [[Jesus' Crucifixion|Jesus' crucifixion]] and [[resurrection]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The prominence of James' father, the success of their fishing business, the connection of James' brother John with the high priest (John 18:15), and the martyrdom of James by beheading rather than [[crucifixion]] might cause one to ask whether James could have even been a [[Roman citizen]], as [[Paul]] was.  Roman citizens could not be crucified as Jesus and many Apostles were.  But James did not appeal his sentence to Caesar in Rome, which he could have done if he were a Roman citizen as Paul was, and there is no suggestion in the New Testament that any of Jesus's Apostles were citizens of Rome.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One tradition holds that James preached the Gospel in Spain before returning to Judea when he was put to death by order of Herod.  His body was then translated to Iria Flavia (northwest Spain) and then to Compostela.  There are difficulties with the plausibility of this early missionary journey, but even if James did not preach the Gospel in Spain, his body may have been brought to Compostela nonetheless.  The town, especially during the Middle Ages, was one of the most important and populat pilgrimage sites.  In the twelfth century the Order of Knights of St. James of Compostela were founded. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Feastday:''' July 25&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Twelve Apostles]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=59 St. James the Greater Apostle] Catholic Online. &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://religion-cults.com/saints/ Saints of the Day]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Biblical persons]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:12 Disciples]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=James_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184849</id>
		<title>James the Apostle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=James_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184849"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T19:54:05Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: James of Compostela&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:James greater.jpg|left]]&lt;br /&gt;
'''James''' (Saint James in [[Catholic]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodox]] traditions) was one of the most prominent Apostles of [[Jesus]].  This Apostle is known as &amp;quot;James the Greater&amp;quot; because there was another Apostle of Jesus also known as James (&amp;quot;James the Lesser&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was a son of Zebedee and the brother of another Apostle, [[John the Apostle|John]].  Both were given the nickname &amp;quot;sons of thunder.&amp;quot;  They apparently came from a family that ran a successful fishing business, as demonstrated by a reference in [[Mark]] to how the business had hired servants.  &amp;quot;And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.&amp;quot;  Mark 1:20.  [[Saint Peter|Peter]] and [[Andrew the Apostle|Andrew]] were also partners in the same fishing business, suggesting that all four (James, John, Peter and Andrew) enjoyed some success.  Peter, James and John were the Apostles closest to Jesus during His ministry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is possible that James was a first cousin of Jesus and knew Him when they were children.  James' mother was Salome, who could have been the sister of Jesus' mother, [[Virgin Mary|Mary]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was present when Jesus resurrected Jairus' daughter, when Jesus underwent a transfiguration, and when Jesus went through His agony in the [[Garden of Gethsemane]].  James (and his brother John) made the mistake of seeking authority over others, which earned him a rebuke from Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was older than John, and James was the first Apostle to be [[martyr|martyred]].  The beheading of James by [[King Herod Agrippa I]] in [[Rome]] is recorded in the [[Book of Acts|Acts of the Apostles]] of the [[New Testament]] (Acts 12:2), and occurred between A.D. 41 and 44, only about ten years after [[Jesus' Crucifixion|Jesus' crucifixion]] and [[resurrection]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The prominence of James' father, the success of their fishing business, the connection of James' brother John with the high priest (John 18:15), and the martyrdom of James by beheading rather than [[crucifixion]] might cause one to ask whether James could have even been a [[Roman citizen]], as [[Paul]] was.  Roman citizens could not be crucified as Jesus and many Apostles were.  But James did not appeal his sentence to Caesar in Rome, which he could have done if he were a Roman citizen as Paul was, and there is no suggestion in the New Testament that any of Jesus's Apostles were citizens of Rome.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One tradition holds that James preached the Gospel in Spain before returning to Judea when he was put to death by order of Herod.  His body was then translated to Iria Flavia (northwest Spain) and then to Compostela.  There are difficulties with the plausibility of this early missionary journey, but even if James did not preach the Gospel igion in Spain, his body may have been brought to Compostela nonetheless.  The town, especially during the Middle Ages, was one of the most important and populat pilgrimage sites.  In the twelfth century the Order of Knights of St. James of Compostela were founded. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Feastday:''' July 25&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Twelve Apostles]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=59 St. James the Greater Apostle] Catholic Online. &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://religion-cults.com/saints/ Saints of the Day]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Biblical persons]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:12 Disciples]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=James_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184823</id>
		<title>James the Apostle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=James_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184823"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T19:34:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:James greater.jpg|left]]&lt;br /&gt;
'''James''' (Saint James in [[Catholic]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodox]] traditions) was one of the most prominent Apostles of [[Jesus]].  This Apostle is known as &amp;quot;James the Greater&amp;quot; because there was another Apostle of Jesus also known as James (&amp;quot;James the Lesser&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was a son of Zebedee and the brother of another Apostle, [[John the Apostle|John]].  Both were given the nickname &amp;quot;sons of thunder.&amp;quot;  They apparently came from a family that ran a successful fishing business, as demonstrated by a reference in [[Mark]] to how the business had hired servants.  &amp;quot;And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.&amp;quot;  Mark 1:20.  [[Saint Peter|Peter]] and [[Andrew the Apostle|Andrew]] were also partners in the same fishing business, suggesting that all four (James, John, Peter and Andrew) enjoyed some success.  Peter, James and John were the Apostles closest to Jesus during His ministry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is possible that James was a first cousin of Jesus and knew Him when they were children.  James' mother was Salome, who could have been the sister of Jesus' mother, [[Virgin Mary|Mary]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was present when Jesus resurrected Jairus' daughter, when Jesus underwent a transfiguration, and when Jesus went through His agony in the [[Garden of Gethsemane]].  James (and his brother John) made the mistake of seeking authority over others, which earned him a rebuke from Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
James was older than John, and James was the first Apostle to be [[martyr|martyred]].  The beheading of James by [[King Herod Agrippa I]] in [[Rome]] is recorded in the [[Book of Acts|Acts of the Apostles]] of the [[New Testament]] (Acts 12:2), and occurred between A.D. 41 and 44, only about ten years after [[Jesus' Crucifixion|Jesus' crucifixion]] and [[resurrection]].  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The prominence of James' father, the success of their fishing business, the connection of James' brother John with the high priest (John 18:15), and the martyrdom of James by beheading rather than [[crucifixion]] might cause one to ask whether James could have even been a [[Roman citizen]], as [[Paul]] was.  Roman citizens could not be crucified as Jesus and many Apostles were.  But James did not appeal his sentence to Caesar in Rome, which he could have done if he were a Roman citizen as Paul was, and there is no suggestion in the New Testament that any of Jesus's Apostles were citizens of Rome.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Feastday:''' July 25&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Twelve Apostles]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=59 St. James the Greater Apostle] Catholic Online. &lt;br /&gt;
*[http://religion-cults.com/saints/ Saints of the Day]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Biblical persons]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:12 Disciples]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=184333</id>
		<title>User:Lostcaesar</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=184333"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T09:49:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Userpage&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Articles I've made:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Second Epistle of Peter]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Matthew (evangelist)]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Noteworthy contributions:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Jesus Christ]] (intro);&lt;br /&gt;
[[The Crusades]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Isaiah (Biblical book)]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=184332</id>
		<title>User:Lostcaesar</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=184332"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T09:49:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Userpage&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Articles I've made:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Second Epistle of Peter]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Matthew (evangelist)]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Major contributions:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Jesus Christ]] (intro);&lt;br /&gt;
[[The Crusades]];&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Matthew_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184331</id>
		<title>Matthew the Apostle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Matthew_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184331"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T09:48:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: page creation - we need to add info on his current resting place and on his evangelistic symbol&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Saint Matthew was one of Jesus' twelve apostles and the evangelist who wrote the first gospel.  He is mentioned five times in the New Testament, once concerning his call (Matthew 9:9) and four other times in lists of the twelve (Luke 6:15, Mark 3:18, Matthew 10:3, Acts 1:13).  His call is also recorded in Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27, where he is called Levi.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Matthew was the son of Alpheus, a Galilean, and a tax collector by trade.  Such a job was often associated with extortion and was therefore regularly despised, especially by the Pharisees.  When called by Jesus, he was sitting at a customhouse.  Matthew arose and followed the Lord, setting for him a feast in his house, where other tax collectors and sinners reclined at table with Jesus and his disciples.  This prompted a rebuke from the Pharisees, whereupon Jesus responded, &amp;quot;I came not to call the just, but sinners.&amp;quot;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
No more specific information concerning Matthew is found in the gospels, though he was obviously present for the events witnessed by the twelve, such as the Last Supper, the post-Resurrection appearances, and Pentecost.  From the Church Fathers we learn that Matthew composed his gospel first, and we are also given the tradition that he preached the Gospel among the Jews and eventually evangelized the region south of the Caspian Sea.  Other traditions add Persia, Macedonia, and Syria.  All ancient testimony, with the exception of Heracleon, states that he died a martyr.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=John_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184325</id>
		<title>John the Apostle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=John_the_Apostle&amp;diff=184325"/>
		<updated>2007-05-31T09:26:33Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:St. John.jpg|left]]&lt;br /&gt;
'''John the Apostle''' (Saint John in [[Catholic]] and [[Orthodox Church|Orthodox]] traditions), was disciple of [[Jesus]] along with his brother [[James the Apostle|James]].  They were called the sons of Zebedee, which means the sons of thunder.  Originally a disciple of [[John the Baptist]] along with [[Andrew the Apostle|Andrew]], they turned to follow Jesus to become &amp;quot;fishers of men&amp;quot;.  John is called the &amp;quot;disciple whom Jesus loved&amp;quot; and is the author of the fourth gospel, [[Gospel of John|The Gospel of John]].  John was with Jesus throughout his ministry, he stood faithfully at the cross and raced to the tomb when he heard that Jesus had risen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. John's later life was passed chiefly in [[Jerusalem]] and at Ephesus. He founded many churches in Asia Minor. Apart from the Gospel of John, John also wrote the biblical books of [[I John]], [[II John]], [[III John]] and the book of [[Revelation]] while exiled on the island of Patmos.  Tradition hold that John was the only one of [[the disciples]] who was not [[martyr|martyred]].  He died of old age in exile.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''While Jesus was hanging on the cross, &amp;quot;there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen. When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own&amp;quot;'' (John 19:25-27). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Feastday''': May 8, December 27.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Saint Peter]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Paul]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Twelve Apostles]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=228 St. John the Apostle]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Biblical persons]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:12 Disciples]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Book_of_Isaiah&amp;diff=182581</id>
		<title>Book of Isaiah</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Book_of_Isaiah&amp;diff=182581"/>
		<updated>2007-05-29T20:43:49Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: small text&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The Book of Isaiah is a book of the Old Testament dating to the eighth century before Christ.  It is organized into two sections of prophetic discourse (1-35 and 40-66) divided by a historical record.  The most remarkable feature of the book is its prophetic utterances about the “servant of the Lord”, which exemplifies many biblical types but ultimately finds its identity in Jesus Christ.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External Links ==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/isaiahthebookof.html Book of Isaiah -Christiananswers.net]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.xenos.org/classes/Isaiah/isweek2.htm Authorship of Isaiah]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=177809</id>
		<title>User:Lostcaesar</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=177809"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T20:36:01Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Userpage&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Articles I've made:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Second Epistle of Peter]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Major contributions:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Jesus Christ]] (intro);&lt;br /&gt;
[[The Crusades]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=177807</id>
		<title>User:Lostcaesar</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Lostcaesar&amp;diff=177807"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T20:35:50Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Userpage&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Articles I've made:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Second Epistle of Peter]];&lt;br /&gt;
[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Major contributions:&lt;br /&gt;
[[Jesus Christ]] (intro)&lt;br /&gt;
[[The Crusades]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=The_Crusades&amp;diff=177806</id>
		<title>The Crusades</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=The_Crusades&amp;diff=177806"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T20:35:08Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: more information, a crusade is more than just those in the holy land, also the legacy is more mixed&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Middle Ages}}&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Crusader.jpg|thumb|200px|right|A returning [[Crusader]]]]&lt;br /&gt;
The '''Crusades''' were a series of military conflicts involving Christian knights who fought to defend Christians and to regain lost Christian domains.  Most often, the term “Crusades” refers to the campaigns in the Holy Land against Muslim forces sponsored by the Papacy, of which there were four. There were other crusades in the Holy Land lead by private royal armies, as well as crusades against Islamic forces in southern Spain, southern Italy, and Sicily.  Furthermore, the campaigns of Teutonic knights against pagan strongholds in Eastern Europe are also sometimes called crusades.  Lastly, military action within Christendom lead against heretical and schismatic groups is also sometimes called a crusade.  The four papal-sponsored crusades aimed at securing the Holy Land lasted from A. D. 1097 to 1204.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of the four papal-sponsored crusades in the Holy Land, only the first and (to a lesser extent) third crusades were successful in terms of their military goals.  Though Jerusalem was held for nearly a century and other strongholds in the Near East would remain in Christian possession much longer, the crusades in the Holy Land ultimately failed to establish permanent Christian kingdoms. The fourth crusade resulted in a very damaged relationship between Greek and Latin Christendom.  Islamic expansion into Europe would renew and remain a threat for centuries, with courageous crusading orders establishing strongholds on Mediterranean islands that often, against all odds, managed to prevent Christendom from suffering from Islamic conquest.  On the other hand, the crusades in southern Spain, southern Italy, and Sicily were militarily successful, eventually leading to the demise of Islamic power in the regions – powers which had established themselves since the first Islamic Jihad-conquests of the eighth and ninth centuries.  The Teutonic knights expanded Christian domains in Eastern Europe, and the much less frequent crusades within Christendom, such as the [[Albigensian Crusade]], achieved their goal of maintaining doctrinal unity.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For such an analysis, see Brian Tierney and Sidney Painter, ''Western Europe in the Middle Ages 300–1475''. 6th ed. (McGraw-Hill 1998)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Holy Land Crusades ==&lt;br /&gt;
The Holy Land had been part of the Roman Empire, and thus Byzantine Empire, until the Islamic conquests of the seventh and eighth centuries. Thereafter, Christians had generally been permitted to visit the sacred places in the Holy Land until 1071, when the [[Seljuk Turks]] closed Christian pilgrimages and assailed the Byzantines, defeating them at the [[Battle of Manzikert]]. Emperor [[Alexius I]] asked for aid from [[Pope Urban II]] (1088–1099) for help against Islamic aggression.  He probably expected money from the pope for the hiring of mercenaries. Instead, Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to fight for the defense of the Christian East and the protection of pilgrims in a speech made at the [[Council of Clermont]] on 27 November 1095.  Urban demanded that all internal feuds within Christendom end, threatening excommunication for anyone who continued to bicker internally, and promising  [[absolution]] and assurance of salvation to anyone who died in the crusade.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The crusades began with an odd start.  The peasantry, excited by the notion of a crusade, and stirred by the preaching of the layman [[Peter the Hermit]], embarked on a disorganized and poorly supplied “crusade”, which failed utterly, being rather unwelcome in the cities they stopped in on their journey, and being slaughtered by the first Islamic army they met.  This was an unofficial, impromptu affair involving the peasantry, and which was warned, and forbidden, by the Christian feudal lords and the papacy alike.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[First Crusade]], properly speaking, was lead by Feudal lords, mostly of Frankish origin.  Many of the knights left home never expecting to return, knowing virtually nothing about the Holy Land, and trusting in God for victory.  The army consisted of almost 20,000 men, including a mass of squires and other servants necessary to support a mounted knight. The army captured [[Nicaea]] in 1097, Antioch in 1099 and then Jerusalem.  The Crusaders massacred the inhabitants of Jerusalem (and it should be noted that, in explaining why the crusaders ultimately failed, contemporary churchmen pointed out the sins of the crusaders).  Four feudal kingdoms were established, which would remain for nearly 100 years.  Crusading orders, consisting of paladins, were also set up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Second Crusade]] occurred in 1145 when Edessa was retaken by Islamic forces.  It was ultimately a failure, owing in part to the French king's insistence on betraying and attacking his only Muslim ally, [[Damascus]].  In 1187 the Muslims&lt;br /&gt;
captured Jerusalem under their leader [[Saladin]], which brought about a new call for a Crusade.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Third Crusade]] (1189-92) is famous for the battles between [[Richard I of England|Richard the Lionheart]] and [[Saladin]], highlighted by the deep respect the two enemies had for each other, and the sense of chivalric honor of King Richard.  The crusade also involved the king of France (who returned home after an argument with&lt;br /&gt;
Richard at Acre) and the Holy Roman Emperor (who drowned en route).  The crusade had the limited success of obtaining a truce from Saladin that promised to allow Christian pilgrimage to Jerusalem.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Fourth Crusade]], begun by [[Innocent III]] in 1202, intended to retake the Holy Land but was soon subverted by Venetians who used the forces to sack the Christian city of Zara. Innocent excommunicated the Venetians and crusaders.  Eventually the crusaders arrived in Constantinople, but due to strife which arose between them and the [[Byzantines]], rather than proceed to the Holy Land the crusaders instead sacked Constantinople and other parts of Asia Minor effectively establishing the Latin Empire of Constantinople in Greece and Asia Minor .  Both Zara and Constantinople were Christian cities, and the ultimate effect was a severely damaged relationship between Greek and Latin Christendom.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This was effectively the last crusade sponsored by the papacy; later crusades were sponsored by individuals.  The Fifth Crusade and the crusade of St. Louis both nearly succeeded in regaining Jerusalem by way of attacking Egypt and failed only through the greed of men like [[Robert of Artois]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Legends tell of a so-called Children’s crusade, where a mass of peasant children, enthused at the notion of a holy war, embarked to the Holy Land, only to be captured by greedy Genovese merchant men and sold into slavery before ever leaving Europe.  Historians, though divided, generally consider this event to be a fiction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, though Jerusalem was held for nearly a century and other strongholds in the Near East would remain in Christian possession much longer, the crusades in the Holy Land ultimately failed to establish permanent Christian kingdoms. Islamic expansion into Europe would renew and remain a threat for centuries culminating in the campaigns of [[Suleiman the Magnificent]] in the sixteenth century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Analysis ==&lt;br /&gt;
A mixture of Christian spirituality and military adventure motivated the participants in the Crusades like never before in history and perhaps never since.  Genovese Merchants participated also in the hope of undermining Venice's trade links with Muslim [[Egypt]].  Many of the crusaders were acting to advance the cause of Christianity.  This was not necessarily true for all of the crusaders.  Criminals who fought were pardoned, and a crusader was exempt from taxation from the time that he “took up the cross,” until he returned from the war.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Much is often made of the absolution from sins granted to crusaders who died in the holy wars.  However, absolution was readily available, either though confession or, if the nobleman wish for a more dramatic gesture, retirement into a monastery and a life of contemplative prayer.  Surely, it was the sense of heroic adventure that made this form of absolution attractive to the warrior elite.  Neither is it a foreign concept to the modern observer to believe that a man who dies in war defending his fellowman, country, or allies, might be accepted into heaven on the grounds of his selfless sacrifice.    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The legacy of the crusades is certainly mixed, and the crusaders have been remembered by some as heroes and by some as villains.  Certainly, history furnished examples of both kinds of crusader.  Likewise, the overall morality of the war raises questions of the just war doctrine, and opinions naturally vary.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[category:crusades]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk:Is_the_Bible_Inerrant%3F&amp;diff=177537</id>
		<title>Conservapedia talk:Is the Bible Inerrant?</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk:Is_the_Bible_Inerrant%3F&amp;diff=177537"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T13:53:30Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Way forward */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Question on the &amp;quot;wise men&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The counter-objection to &amp;quot;Who visited Jesus in his crib?&amp;quot; says, &amp;quot;Ah, no - sorry! Merely 'where the young child was'!&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is this meant as a retraction?  If not, perhaps it means that you've missed the point of the objection.  The point is that the magi ''didn't'' visit Jesus in the manger/crib/inn, despite all those nativity scenes showing otherwise.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Firstly, the text says that they visited him &amp;quot;in the house&amp;quot;.  Secondly, they presumably saw the star when he was born, but spent some time travelling to Bethlehem via Jerusalem, with Herod asking them about when they saw the star.  Thirdly, presumably on the basis of their answer, Herod had all the boys up to two years old.  Taken together, all these clues indicate that whilst the shepherds visited the new-born Jesus, the magi visited the toddler Jesus up to two years later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ergo, no contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By the way, it's good to see you remove a couple of &amp;quot;contradictions&amp;quot;.  Keep doing that and you'll eventually have to admit that there are none! :-)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:31, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Keep going yourself, and you'll hang yourself eventually! ;0) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:35, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Why do we even have this list?  It's all context switching!--[[User:Bill M|bill m]] 12:07, 29 March 2007 (EDT) 12:46, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don't understand what you mean by &amp;quot;context switching&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm sure from Petrus' point of view, this article (which he created as &amp;quot;Bible Contradictions&amp;quot;) is intended to show that the Bible has mistakes, so cannot be infallible.&lt;br /&gt;
:::From my point of view, this article is/can-be useful to show (a) that many of the common bibliosceptic attacks on the Bible are just silly, and (b) the more legitimate criticisms do have answers.&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:31, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Not sure about the 'context-switching'. Personally, I'm not referring to 'contexts', but merely listing texts that appear to contradict each other. If others insist on bringing in 'contexts' to justify their objections (which usually means 'interpretations'), good luck to them - but it will merely weaken their case. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:33, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You miss the beauty of exegesis, Petre, one can make the bible say virtually anything.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:18, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As certain people, with their constant recourse to exegetical twisters, should have realised by now! ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:35, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::No doubt.  But I wonder if they've realised that in the process they've made the Bible say virtually nothing -- it all becomes a maddening din of pseudo-hosannahs, the rumblings of a  schizophrenic god and apoplectic apocalypses. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 06:07, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Especially as ''Hosanna'' means, not 'Hooray', but 'Save us now' - so they can't have shouted ''Hosanna '''to'''...'' anyone! ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:31, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why ==&lt;br /&gt;
Why is there discussion going on '''in''' the article? [[User:Rob Pommer| Rob Pommer]]&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|TALK]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 12:48, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The only reason one may need to resolve possible contradictions of the Bible is to shore-up the belief that it needs to be taken literally, whenever possible.&lt;br /&gt;
:If one allows for errors in the Bible then the whole makes more than the sum of the parts.[[User:Rob Pommer| Rob Pommer]]&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|TALK]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 12:52, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yes, why have an &amp;quot;article&amp;quot; which is a debate?  The debate (if we really need one) should be here and later put to the article.--[[User:Bill M|bill m]] 12:07, 29 March 2007 (EDT) 12:55, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It's a moot point. The article was never designed to be a discussion - merely a listing of points pro and con, which is perfectly legitimate IMO. Call it an 'interactive article' if you like - but I don't see why an article shouldn't be interactive in a 'live' encyclopedia. Rather that than the uneditable, monolithic, ''ex cathedra'' pronouncements elsewhere in  Conservapedia!... --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:44, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''Rob Pommer''':  Answering alleged contradictions is not to shore up belief, but to refute bibliosceptical attacks on the Bible:  &amp;quot;''We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God...''&amp;quot; (2 Corinthians 10:5, NIV).  I don't follow the logic of your second point about the sum of the parts.&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''Rob Pommer''' and''' bill m''':  I'm not comfortable with the format.  I think it should be in the form of the criticism (the alleged contradiction) and an objection to it.  To have an objection to the objection, and an objection to the objection to the objection , does get rather silly.&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:40, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, that's true. Let's try and keep it down to an objection and a possible counter-objection wherever possible. Leave the reader to decide on the merits of that. In any case, keep it brief, and don't drag in all kinds of external commentators to try and argue the case by flattening the opposition, other than by footnote-reference. You may have noticed that ''my'' sole references are to the texts themselves. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:44, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You used the actual texts?  How quaint.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:19, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Poor Bible exegesis offered at this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe there is very poor [[Bible exegesis]] offered at this article.  I put some sources at the beginning of the article in order to give readers an alternative.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Specifically, I offered these web resources:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.tektonics.org/index2.html &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.inerrancy.org/ &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.christian-thinktank.com &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.apologeticspress.org/allegeddiscrepancies/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:04, 29 March 2007 (EDT)conservative&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Conservative, perhaps you missed that two of those sites were already used in some of the objections.  But thanks for adding the other two. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:43, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::But in that case shouldn't some skeptical sources be linked, too? In its original format, the article didn't cite ''any'' critical sources - for either side. In fact, in my view, that is much the best idea. Originally it didn't have anything to do with exegesis - merely with what the texts actually say. Citing exterior sources (other than the texts themselves) merely drags in a whole 'war of the commentators' that can only lead to just as much confusion and uncertainty as before. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:50, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yes indeedy they should.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::Still missing the beauty of exigesis, though eh?  I mean, think of all the really neat things Nostradamus never said but really did per the use of a non-biblical form of exegesis.  Think of all of the UFO mysteries that are cleared up in the same fashion.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:28, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Not to be nit-picky but...==&lt;br /&gt;
The portion:&lt;br /&gt;
''*Can the Sun and Moon ever appear together in the sky at the same time?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Psalm 136:8-9 No. God created &amp;quot;The sun to rule by day...The moon and stars to rule by night.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
Genesis 1:16: No. God created &amp;quot;two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night...&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Objection 2: The passages in Psalms and Genesis should be taken figuratively rather than literally and thus do not mean that the Moon is always visible at night, nor that it is never visible during the day.'' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd advise caution here unless it is your intent TO bring up the &amp;quot;when do we '''know''' we're ''supposed'' to take the Bible literally and when to take it figuratively&amp;quot; argument.&lt;br /&gt;
Not really a point, just an observation.--[[User:Rob Pommer| Cracker]]&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|talk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 09:47, 2 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I suppose the real issue here is that one cannot claim infallibility when one ceases to be literal.  Once one wanders of into the realm of allegory and uses figurative devices &amp;quot;truth&amp;quot; becomes subjective.  In other words, the Bible is either the literal truth or it's allegory, but once you allow for the latter you can lay no claim to the former. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 06:02, 3 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So are you suggesting that if someone you were talking to on the telephone said that &amp;quot;it's raining cats and dogs here&amp;quot;, you would have no idea whether or not that was literally true?  Is it not the case that metaphor, parable, analogy, etc. can be recognised by the context and/or the language, and that it is therefore possible to take literally the parts that are meant to be taken literally whilst acknowledging the existence of non-literal parts?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:24, 3 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Most people I know don't claim to be infallible.  [[User:Myk|Myk]] 02:39, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Philip, your argument falls apart for several reasons.  Myk has pointed out one of them: if no claim of infallibility is made or implied, there is no reason to assume same.  Another is that as many literalists purport that every word of the bible is the infallible word of God, they simply can't turn around and say, &amp;quot;oh, that part? that's just a story&amp;quot;.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 05:43, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I couldn't actually see the point of Myk's comment.  Claiming or not claiming infallibility says nothing about whether or not something is metaphor, parable, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
::I think you've got the wrong idea about infallibility.  Christians believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God and is therefore infallible, but that means that it infallibly records people doing the wrong thing, infallibly records the lies that people told, etc.  It does ''not'' mean that every word is literally true and that literary devices such as metaphor and parable are not used.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:49, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Clarity in language is important.  If something is claimed to be infallible, it best be awfully clear in its language.  Go up to someone who has just learned how to speak English and tell them it's raining cats and dogs, see what kind of reaction you get.  Further, in biblical times a rain of cats and dogs doesn't seem that implausible (see: Plague of Frogs). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Literal truth of the bible means just that.  Literal, not metaphorical. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 12:52, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::That something claimed to be infallible should be clear is your opinion, not a requirement of infallibility.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::We are talking about infallibility, not literalism.  Despite NousEpirrhytos' comment below, they are two distinct concepts.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:10, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Myk, I think we're arguing logic with the wrong person.  BTW, Phil, generally speaking infallible, inerrant and literal are used interchangeably when used by fundamentalists and evangelicals. &lt;br /&gt;
::::Another BTW, Phil, do you claim to speak for all Christians?  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 18:45, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I disagree that &amp;quot;infallible&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;inerrant&amp;quot; are ''generally'' used interchangeably with &amp;quot;literal&amp;quot; when used by fundamentalists and evangelicals.  Perhaps some uninformed Christians use them interchangeably, but they are clearly different things.  I see bibliosceptics conflating them more than I see Christians conflating them.  (&amp;quot;Infallible&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;inerrant&amp;quot; may be used interchangeably, as they are very close if not identical in meaning.)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Of course I don't claim to speak for all Christians.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:10, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You are of course free to your own opinion.  Unfortunately as I have seen (in print) and heard Biblethumpers using the words interchangeably, I really can't agree with you.&lt;br /&gt;
::::But, y'know what cracks me up, your use of &amp;quot;bibliosceptics&amp;quot;, a neologism that does not mean what you think it does (look up &amp;quot;bibliophile&amp;quot; and ye shall find understanding).  In any case, you seem to think that treating the bible just like one would treat any other book is a bad thing -- in reality, in casting a critical eye on books one can gain much wisdom.  Alas, I suppose you're content to settle for a belief in salvation, staying far away from the tree of knowledge (after all, you might find that some things you thought to be good are evil, and those you thought to be evil, good). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 18:31, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== What's this article trying to achieve? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Actually, I think the answer to that question, as far as the original editor is concerned, is obvious.  It's to discredit the Bible as the infallible Word of God.  My reason for having it (as I added to it) is to demonstrate that the alleged contradictions are not in fact contradictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is it the intention to list every &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; ever ''claimed''?  Because if it is, there is no way to achieve that without making the page ridiculously large.  Perhaps it is to just show a few samples?  But so far there's been no discussion about what sorts of alleged contradictions should be included.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And frankly, many of the allegations are plain silly.  In fact I quoted someone saying that about one of the alleged contradictions, and Petrus [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Alleged_Bible_contradictions&amp;amp;diff=72033&amp;amp;oldid=72032 removed] the comment.  Fair enough, it was supposed to be an answer to the allegation, not a commentary on the allegation, so I didn't restore it.  But it needs to be said somewhere.  Let's look at this one a bit closer, because it epitomises the problems with the list.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Two sayings (aka proverbs) that most would be familiar with are:&lt;br /&gt;
* Many hands make light work.&lt;br /&gt;
* Too many cooks spoil the broth.&lt;br /&gt;
Are these two sayings contradictory?  Taken literally, then yes they are.  But does anyone object to them on those grounds?  Of course not.  Despite them probably being coined by different people at different times, the validity of both is accepted, because neither claims to be always true and both have their place.  Sometimes, more helpers ease the burden on others, but at other times too many people result in them getting in each other's way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So what are we to make of a proverb in the Bible that says, 'Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.&amp;quot;?  Is this seriously a contradiction, or like the saying above, are both sentences true in some cases?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To claim that they are contradictory, one must:&lt;br /&gt;
* Ignore the fact that they are ''sayings'', not truth-claims that have no exceptions, and read the text literally.  Bibliosceptics love to criticise Creationists and fundamentalists for reading the Bible literally, despite them repeatedly saying that they only do this where it was ''meant'' literally, whilst still recognising metaphors, parables, etc.  Yet here we have a bibliosceptic reading the text literally in order to make a claim of a contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
* Presume that the original author was so incompetent that he would write two consecutive sentences contradicting each other, apparently without realising it.&lt;br /&gt;
* Further presume that many others who included the book of Proverbs in the canon, or who copied it over and over, or who write commentaries on it, are also so incompetent that they never noticed the &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
* Reject these sorts of explanations and maintain that it ''is'' a contradiction, with the astounding observation that the text doesn't say &amp;quot;this&amp;quot;, meaning the answer given.  Well the sayings above don't say that they are both true in different circumstances either, but that is something people are simply expected to understand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we have the case of the number of stables that Solomon had.  Christians who believe that the Bible is infallible do not believe that all human translations and copies are infallible, but that the original autographs were (although they do believe that the copies are very accurate copies).  So if they ''occasionally'' answer that an apparent contradiction is a copyist error (as in the case of the number of stables), it does ''not'' follow that the Bible is therefore not infallible, except in the mind of the bibliosceptic who is doing his best to find all the contradictions he can, perhaps to bolster his own faith.  Keep in mind that the answer to that &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; included a link (and remember that Petrus doesn't want to include links) that explained all that.  Neither does he want the sort of long explanations that including all that in the article would entail.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not saying that all claimed contradictions are silly.  Some claims of contradictions are fair enough, in that they really do ''appear'' to be contradictions, and deserve to be answered.  The number of stables one is an example, but the article should state the apparent contradiction, provide the answer, and leave it at that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In summary, many claimed contradictions in the Bible are nothing more than bibliosceptics grasping at straws and applying criteria that they wouldn't apply in any other situation, in order to try and prove their viewpoint that the Bible is fallible.  I don't believe that this article should waste its time on those sorts of &amp;quot;contradictions&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:30, 3 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Hmmm....shall I take the time to point out all of the fallacies of the above?  Part of me would like to write a long refutation, but the wiser part knows this to be fruitless.  So, I'll just give one example:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;*&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; Many hands make light work. &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;*&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; Too many cooks spoil the broth.  You're assuming that the statements are equal but there is a quantitative difference: yes, many hands may make the work easier but at a certain point, the people begin tripping over each other and thus, as they actually impede the work, there is a point, the ''ne plus ultra'', that tips the balance from a comfy many to a disastrous too many.  No contradiction.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 05:50, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thank you for supporting my point!  To quote Petrus' counter-objection to the very &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; I was discussing here, &amp;quot;'''But the text does not actually say this.'''&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:: I figured it would probably be fruitless to convince you blokes too, but I tried anyway.&lt;br /&gt;
::  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:47, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::While we're on the topic:&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;He who hesitates is lost&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Look before you leap&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;Cut your losses and let your profits run&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Buy low, sell high.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;Absence makes the heart grow fonder&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Out of sight, out of mind&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Don't beat a dead horse.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::19:45, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Excellent examples! - in fact there are few well-known proverbs that don't also have their opposites. But then that makes the point perfectly. No given 'pair' is likely to have been produced by the same person. Their very oppositeness suggests different hands with different views, ''not a single, monolithic author''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And no, my purpose wasn't 'to discredit the Bible as the infallible Word of God' - merely to provoke people actually to look at the words (in some cases, apparently for the first time!) and decide for themselves whether that proposition is really tenable in the light of the facts. Thus, 'to discredit ''the dogma'' that the Bible is the infallible Word of God', possibly. But about the Bible I'm perfectly neutral. It's indubitably there, and it indubitably says what it says. I merely urge that people read it through clear glass, not stained glass. It's better for the eyes, you know!--[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:45, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yet you appear to be reading it through the eyes of a hyper-literalist, rather than as it was meant to be understood.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:56, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do you know how it is &amp;quot;meant&amp;quot; to be understood? How do you know, for instance, that Genesis 1 was meant to be understood literally? [[User:Chrysogonus|Chrysogonus]] 18:54, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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...other than by reading it through stained glass? Why can't the text simply be allowed to say what it says, warts and all, without imposing your own dogmas and preconceptions on it - such as the man-made myth of God-given infallibility? Isn't this perilously close to ''biblolatry'', in direct infringement of the spirit of the second commandment? Do you honestly think the Bible needs ''your'' protection from the light of reality, let alone that of all the commentators whom Conservative seems intent on importing into the argument? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:53, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:As noted above, it is best to read the bible in a literary manner, that is to say, the same way you'd read any other book.  I've always been amused by folks who dismiss Odysseus tricking the cyclops to save his men as far-fetched mythology and yet cling to the almost parallel David v Goliath story.  Both stories are allegorical myths, not litteral renderings of &amp;quot;history&amp;quot;. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 08:27, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::You determine how something is meant to be understood by the language used (e.g., does it conform to the style of poetry, narrative, etc.?), and by the culture for whom it was written.  If, for example, a sentence said &amp;quot;The rock landed on the marquee&amp;quot;, would you understand it to mean that the rock landed on a large tent, or on a canopy projecting out over the entrance to a large building?  The correct answer depends on whether the writer was writing for an Australian or British audience, or an American audience.  You can also look at how others who would know how to read it understood it, if such records exist.  For example, Jesus referred to various aspects of the Genesis narrative as though it was historical fact; He didn't understand it as allegorical myth.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:48, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Precisely. The Genesis narrative was written for (and by) a people living nearly three thousand years ago, and Jesus lived two thousand years ago. That cultural difference is the whole explanation of why the narrative doesn't say, 'The Earth was formed as a result of the agglomeration of cosmic dust some 4,500 million years ago', and why Jesus didn't understand it that way: none of the concepts involved was understood at the time. (Just as well that, as a healer, he had never heard of the symptomatology of schizophrenia!) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:08, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Jesus was the Creator, so he would know, and He endorsed what Genesis said.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:58, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Well, technically, the only thing we know is that second-hand accounts claimed that Jesus endorsed what Genesis said.  We ain't got nothin' from Jesus himself.  Jesus didn't write anything.  --[[User:ReaganLives|ReaganLives]] 08:46, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you want to get technical about it, the ultimate author of the Bible was God, Jesus is God, ergo Jesus is the author of the Bible, so we do have it from Jesus Himself.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:33, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I think Jesus is inerrant, therefore he couldn't have written the Bible.  Too many internal consistencies.  Why don't you believe Jesus is inerrant?  Are you a liberal?  --[[User:ReaganLives|ReaganLives]] 12:55, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::I suspect that what you've typed there is not what you meant to type, but as typed, it doesn't make sense.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Or so it's reported in the Gospels.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, if you read the bible in the cultural context, something that is part of any literary reading or scholarship, you'd understand why, for example, the creation stories are written as they are.  They are attempts to explain the then unknowable &amp;quot;whence came we?&amp;quot;, but from different perspectives, separated in time by about 160 years. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 09:11, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I agree that it should be understood in its cultural context; that's effectively one of the things I've been saying.  But I disagree that the cultural context is that of trying to explain the unknowable.  If the Bible is correct, the &amp;quot;unknowable&amp;quot; was revealed by God, thus known.  I don't understand the reference to 160 years.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:20, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Then, I would suggest you indulge your curiosity in some real Bible scholarship, rather than reading only those interpretations meant to make members of the evangelical community feel more secure in their ''argumenta ad ignoratium''.  I can suggest two well-respected books, based on true interdisciplinary scholarship, if you wish.&lt;br /&gt;
:::BTW, what's with the edit summary &amp;quot;Jesus knew&amp;quot;? -- how would you (or anyone else for that matter) know what Jesus &amp;quot;knew&amp;quot;. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 16:20, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the condescending remarks.  As the Creator, Jesus obviously knew how creation occurred.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:43, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Unless, of course, he wasn't and didn't. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:14, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Vero, Petre.  Interesting that Philip states religious dogma as fact.  Note, Philip, that I did not use the theological title &amp;quot;Christ&amp;quot; (i.e., Jesus as God), but rather used his human name, thus referring to Jesus as a man.  Thus, having clarified my question, I shall ask again: how would you (or anyone else for that matter) know what Jesus &amp;quot;knew&amp;quot;.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 08:10, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: I was stating it in a matter-of-fact way because I was answering the question of how Jesus would know.  That's how He would know, and in that context it was proper to put it in that way.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I fail to grasp the distinction that you are making between Jesus as God and Jesus as man, therefore my answer stands.  Are you suggesting that the man Jesus was totally oblivious to what He had done as God?&lt;br /&gt;
:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:33, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Who said'' Jesus is God? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:58, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::The Bible does.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:39, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::But the Koran doesn't - and the Koran is the Word of God. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 10:54, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::So?  You asked who does say it, and the Bible does say it, so the Koran ''not'' saying it doesn't change that.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:37, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Further proof of the need to read.  I'm talking about assuming Jesus to be just a man, not a god.  Try to consider that possibility...it will not harm your faith and you might even learn something in the process.  Also, why not try (if you haven't, already) reading the bible without relying on exegesis or the opinions of others, there again you might learn something.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Obviously, I have no ken of precisely what you know or think, but it seems, based on what you've written here, that your knowledge is limited to monolithic dogma and that you might think that those of us who see the bible as a book are bereft of biblical knowledge (in the true sense, not some cosmic exegetical sense).  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 10:50, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Hey, if you want to get hypothetical and propose that Jesus was not God at all, then sure, he would not have known.  But why not also hypothesise that Jesus didn't exist, or that the Bible was written by Shakespeare or something?  The point is that I was answering a question about how I would know how Genesis was intended to be understood, and part of my answer was to rely on what Jesus understood it to mean.  By &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot;, I mean the bloke in the New Testament who was actually God and who was actually the Creator.  That's what '''I''' meant by &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot;.  The response was to ask how Jesus would know if he ''wasn't'' God.  Well sure, if He wasn't God, he wouldn't know, but I was answering the question according to my understanding of who Jesus was.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:49, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::On the basis of what evidence? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:55, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::The Bible.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:39, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well, this discussion has gone as far as it can.  The illogic displayed by Philip is a clear indication that he is not willing to learn anything, and that his lithocephalic attachment to what he &amp;quot;believes&amp;quot; will neither allow him to learn nor to debate in a rational manner.  Sad, really. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:59, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So now you accuse me of being illogical without showing that I have been illogical.  Nice.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:47, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::'The Bible' (a whole library of different books, most of which don't even mention Jesus at all) is not evidence, any more than 'the police department's computer' is evidence that Joe Bloggs burgled your house. Cite the precise evidence that Jesus is God, or stop making such absurd claims as that he was the Creator (which even most traditional Christians don't believe) - ideas which, as a faithful Jew, he cannot possibly have supported himself. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:51, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::I can't see the analogy between the Bible and the police computer, but why can't the police computer contain the evidence of a burglary?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Are you unaware of the verses in the Bible that say that Jesus was the Creator?  I can quote them if you want, but I suspect that you already know them and reject them for some reason.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Why couldn't Jesus have supported that idea?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:49, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Additional topic for study for Phillip: Judaism.  12:53, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Thanks for the non-answer.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, it's most definitely an answer.  A bit cryptic perhaps, but surely someone gifted in exegesis should be able to pluck the meaning out of the chasm of calypsis. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 15:43, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::No, it's telling me in what topic of study I could find an answer, bit it's not an answer itself.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:26, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Do you really think I'm going to continue in this vein? Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is ... please, the bottom line is that you need to search out the answers on your own: as you seem to think that Petrus and I are clueless, there is little point in either of us explaining the answers to you.  Seek and ye shall find! [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 05:56, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Petrus' comment of 05:51, 8 April 2007 (EDT) shows but one example of Philip's illogic.  Another example would be this sentence, &amp;quot;But why not also hypothesise that Jesus didn't exist, or that the Bible was written by Shakespeare or something?&amp;quot;  This is an absurd extrapolation that has no basis in what I said, and as such is an illogical response.  Also Philip, while I'm sure you're unaware of this, you should know that for nearly two millenia there have been raging debates within the Chistian community regarding to what extent and where Jesus can use his &amp;quot;supernaural&amp;quot; powers.  For example -- for the crucifxion to be a valid sacrifice leading to salvation, Jesus must be all man during that period.  Also, early Christianity were beset with a variety of &amp;quot;heresies&amp;quot; (litteraly &amp;quot;schools of thought) that, had they been adopted, would have profoundly changed your current beliefs.  See ''Donatism, Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, Montanism'' and ''Docetism''. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:18, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is a rather large extrapolation, to make a point, but it's only an extrapolation, not an example of bad logic.  Even if you are correct about Jesus needing to be all man (and I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing), how does that affect what I said?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:49, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I can't think of any convincing evidence from the Bible that Jesus thought he was God, let alone the Creator - so perhaps you'd better enlighten us? Simple references will do. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 10:54, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::I hope you mean that you can't think of any references, rather than you can't think of any &amp;quot;convincing evidence&amp;quot;, else I'm probably wasting my time.  But here are two (both are talking about Jesus):&lt;br /&gt;
{{QuoteBox|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:1-3, NIV)}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{QuoteBox|For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Colossians 1:16, NIV)}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:(reduce indent)Equating Jesus with the nebulous &amp;quot;the Word&amp;quot; requires exegesis based on several bad assumptions.  The actor (subject) in Colossians, in both the original Greek and the English, is unclear (likely intentionally), and the verses from 1:10 through 1:20 need to be considered in order for 1:16 to be read properly: it is '''not''' a standalone sentence, it is part of a series of subordinate clauses.  Yanking biblical quotes out of context is one of the causes of poor understanding and is certainly poor scholarship. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 13:05, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::And yet you have not actually demonstrated that I used them out of context or inappropriately.  Would Hebrews 1:1-2 (NIV) be more acceptable?{{quoteBox|In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.}} [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::There's also Mark: &amp;quot;The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::As for Jesus himself, there's Matthew 16:13-17, {{QuoteBox|When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.}}&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::How do you parse this? It's not clear to me why Jesus consistently prefers to call himself the &amp;quot;Son of man,&amp;quot; and the annotation in the Oxford Annotated Bible is rather vague: &amp;quot;''Son of man,'' a title which Jesus used of himself, probably seemed to his listeners to carry either of two meanings: (a) that Jesus called himself a typical human being... or (b) that Jesus ... linked himself to the prophesied figure of Dan.7.13-14... Jesus nowhere fully discloses his own understanding of the term.&amp;quot; Still, in the above passage, it seems to me that after Peter calls Jesus &amp;quot;the Son of the living God,&amp;quot; Jesus ''endorses this as valid divine revelation to Peter.'' That isn't Jesus calling himself the Son of God, but isn't it awfully close?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Still, this brings up something that bothers me. When people say &amp;quot;the Bible says,&amp;quot; sometimes it means &amp;quot;the Bible says,&amp;quot; but quite often it means &amp;quot;someone ''in'' the Bible says.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
:::::::For example, &amp;quot;the Bible&amp;quot; indeed says &amp;quot;And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::But &amp;quot;the Bible&amp;quot; does not say &amp;quot;And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.&amp;quot; Rather, the Bible says Moses says God said this.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::The problem here is whether or not everybody quoted in the Bible has equal authority. Are we allowed to make such judgements, or not? Does the Bible say &amp;quot;For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;a living dog is better than a dead lion?&amp;quot; If we're allowed to say, &amp;quot;no, that's not God, that's just Solomon,&amp;quot; then why aren't we allowed to say about Romans 1:26-27, &amp;quot;no, that's not God, that's just Paul?&amp;quot; If everything in the Bible is of equal authority, then why do some Bibles print the words of Christ in red? If everything in the Bible is of equal authority, then why do so few Christians obey the kosher dietary laws? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 14:09, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::True, one must be careful to distinguish between what the Bible is teaching and what it is simply reporting.  It does include reports of incorrect information by various people.  But I believe that &amp;quot;the Bible says&amp;quot; is an acceptable way of describing your example about the creatures without fins and scales, given that it is quoting God.  If it was quoting Satan, or an evil king, to mention two possibilities, then it would be quite misleading to say &amp;quot;the Bible says&amp;quot; in this case. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Thanks for sharing that tautology -- &amp;quot;the bible says this, so it must be true&amp;quot; -- and I agree that it is very troubling when arguments of this sort are presented: validation based on an original source is hardly very compelling.  Basic problem is that these are written after Paul had established that Jesus was the &amp;quot;anointed one&amp;quot; -- note that the Greek Khristos is applied to both Jesus and David (among others), and the &amp;quot;anointed one&amp;quot; in Judaism ''is'' a son of man who becomes king ( a la David).   [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:41, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm not sure what you are referring to with the tautology reference, because nobody said those precise words.  But if you are referring to me, I don't believe that I said anything that amounts to that.  If you think otherwise, please quote or clearly point to the precise thing I did say.  However, your quote, as it stands, is not actually a tautology anyway.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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1. 'Son of God' does ''not'' mean 'God'. All Israelites were 'sons of God' ''by definition''. That's why David claims the same title at Psalm 2:7 (at the same time making it clear that it's ''by adoption''), and why Jesus was able to teach his followers to pray 'Our Father...'&lt;br /&gt;
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2. 'The Messiah, the Son of God' seems to have been a pre-existing title at the time (cf Schonfield): it referred to the 'Son of God' (i.e. the archetypal Israelite) who was to come - the particular 'son of man' (''bar enash'' or, in Hebrew, ''ben adam'', which ''still'' means 'man' even today) referred to by the book of Daniel.&lt;br /&gt;
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4. In your quote from the beginning of John, the 'and the Word was God' bit should almost certainly read 'and the Word was divine'. Otherwise it simply doesn't make sense in terms of the previous sentence, let alone in terms of the familiar Pharisaic doctrine of the ''logos'' (i.e. the Adam Kadmon, or man-thought-in-the-mind-of-God) that is reflected not only in the text, but in the traditional Jewish wedding service ('last in creation, first in thought').&lt;br /&gt;
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5. Not only does the Koran not say that Jesus was God, it specifically denies that Jesus was even his son (i.e. in the normal sense of the word). So, since the Koran claims repeatedly to be the word of God, whereas the Bible doesn't claim to be (it can't have done, since it didn't exist as a book for the claim to be made at the time when it was written), it's clearly the Koran that should be believed, if anything...&lt;br /&gt;
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6. You have told us what Paul thought about it and what John thought about it, but I asked you what ''Jesus'' thought about it. So far, you haven't told us a single word about that. Why are you being so evasive? ''Please give us convincing evidence from the Bible that Jesus thought he was God (let alone 'the Creator')''. Just the simple references will do: no need to write a novel about it.&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh - and if you ''must'' quote the passages concerned, please use a more reputable translation than the NIV! --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:57, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yes, thank you, Petre.  Paul's opinions are nice, and without them Paulism, er Christianity might never have gotten off the ground, but they are merely Paul's opinions.  Phil, you need to do a bit more reading into the logos theory (among all the other reading you really should do).&lt;br /&gt;
:Phil, reread what Dpbsmith wrote, the problems to which he refered and perhaps you'll understand the point.  Also, if English is the best you can do, pick a better source than the NIV.  Of course, I have the advantage of being able to read Greek (the language of the NT), and as a linguist I know that no translation can capture precisely what was said in the other language (especially shades of meaning and double entendres), thus I am able to compare and contrast the sources and develop a fuller understanding of the text. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 06:30, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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----&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not continuing this discussion any more, as it has strayed far from the original topic yet the original points have mostly not been addressed.  I'll give a few examples so that that is not just an unsubstantiated assertion.&lt;br /&gt;
* I noted that there has been no discussion of what sorts of alleged contradictions should be listed.  There has still been no such discussion.&lt;br /&gt;
* I asked why a police computer could not contain evidence of a burglary.  There was no reply to that question.&lt;br /&gt;
* I said that the Bible said that Jesus was the Creator.  I was asked to supply evidence that Jesus thought He was the Creator.  I supplied evidence that the Bible referred to Jesus as the Creator.  This was dismissed because it didn't show ''that Jesus thought that''.  But that is not what I claimed.  I was actually asked to provide evidence to something I didn't claim, only to have my answer dismissed because it didn't meet the straw-man.&lt;br /&gt;
The discussion has also diverted into whether the Old Testament and the New Testament agree, which again is nothing to do with the issue I raised.  All this discussion is taking time to answer, and it's time that I'm not prepared to spend any longer when the issues that I raised are not being addressed but are instead being used to launch into new criticisms.&lt;br /&gt;
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See you all on other talk pages.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:01, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Protected debate page? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Whats the deal with the protected debate page? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 18:57, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Conservative apparently went on a &amp;quot;Clean up unsourced statements&amp;quot; trip (blocked Hoji in the process for re-inserting things - who then unblocked himself because he's so awesome), not realizing that this is not in the Main space anymore. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 19:02, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I then went to delete some other unsourced stuff. But, CPAdmin1 reverted it, and I have asked him why, because this is ridiculous to the N&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; degree. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#0000CC&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;00FFAA&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 19:05, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== This &amp;quot;namespace&amp;quot;  is a joke. It claimed people to be scholars who weren't ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hoji wrote to me regarding [[Conservapedia:Alleged Bible contradictions]] the following: &amp;quot; It is a Conservapedia: namespace, is NOT AN ARTICLE, and does NOT need citations.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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I can't think of anything more detrimental to Conservapedia than to be filled with &amp;quot;Namespaces&amp;quot; (whatever those are)  because people can say just about any foolish thing without backing it up.  &lt;br /&gt;
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The &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; page is a monstrosity claiming people to be &amp;quot;critical scholars&amp;quot; who have no real credentials ('''Unix systems engineer'''), etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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What's with this whole &amp;quot;namespace&amp;quot; idea?  &lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:13, 5 April 2007 (EDT)conservative&lt;br /&gt;
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: The namespace means its not a real article and lets people bicker back and foreth without the threat of getting banned.  Citations are not needed (unless you presume to go clean up the other Conservapedia namespace articles that lack citations). What are your credentials anyways? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:16, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Especially where the introductory remarks merely refer to what ''generally'' happens - on ''both'' sides of the argument! One almost gets the impression that ''somebody'' is afraid to have both sides stated! Such paranoia is both unworthy and unnecessary. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:58, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: *sigh* Ask first, act then. It's not quantum physics. &amp;quot;Namespace&amp;quot; = a sort of container, filled with articles. All regular articles are in the &amp;quot;Main&amp;quot; namespace (for example, [[Theory of evolution]] is in the main namespace). Article Talk pages (like [[Talk:Theory of evolution]]) are in the &amp;quot;Talk&amp;quot; namespace. Same goes for pages in the &amp;quot;Help&amp;quot; namespace (all articles starting with &amp;quot;Help:...&amp;quot;) or the &amp;quot;Conservapedia&amp;quot; namespace (like this &amp;quot;article&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
:Articles in the &amp;quot;Conservapedia&amp;quot; namespace are NOT regular articles. All debates are in it, along with a few special pages about Conservapedia itself. This &amp;quot;article&amp;quot; was moved from the &amp;quot;Main&amp;quot; namespace to the &amp;quot;Conservapedia&amp;quot; namespace - most likely BECAUSE it's not a normal article and more of a debate.&lt;br /&gt;
:As you may have noticed, debates fall a bit out of the normal rules - not everything must be sourced (althouth it helps). Original research and argumentation is naturally a part of a debate, so it's completely counter-intuitive to suddenly &amp;quot;clean up&amp;quot; things - you're destroying a debate archive. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 19:24, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::This is a prime example of why, instead of reverting blindly without even understanding the Wiki model, you should consult other editors. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#0000CC&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;00FFAA&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 19:32, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==&amp;quot;Contradictions need to be proved&amp;quot;==&lt;br /&gt;
Looks like a long paragraph of someone's personal opinion. Is there a source somewhere that defines what a &amp;quot;Biblical contradiction&amp;quot; is? A generally accepted rulebook that says whom the &amp;quot;onus&amp;quot; is upon and so forth? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:33, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:A biblical contradiction is the same as any other contradictions, and contradictions are generally the responsibility of the speaker/writer or his/her representatives to clear up. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 16:38, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== I do not understand this argument. ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Could someone please explain to me how {{remove personal remark|anyone in their right mind could think}} this is a sensible argument to have? The collection of works called the bible was written over thousands of years by a load of different guys in various languages, with different agendas, different points of view, and using their limited understanding of the world as it was at the time they wrote it. Following this, bits were lost, added to, lost again, and then transcribed, translated, re-transcribed, re-translated etc. by a whole load of different guys all struggling to make sense out of a fragmented text in a different language, sno longer spoken. How on earth would anyone expect that there would not be inaccuracies and contradictions arising from that process?&lt;br /&gt;
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... and if you claim that 'God guided the hand of the writers, translators etc...&amp;quot;, think again. &lt;br /&gt;
Why on earth (or in heaven) would he bother? Wouldn't it have been much simpler to write the thing once and set it in stone for all time, and ensure that his word was preserved intact? If God actually wanted that, then that was what he would have done. Come on guys, think about it... even if you are a believer, the real point about having a bible is that it does contain inaccuracies. No believer can be 100% sure that God has not deliberately inserted inaccuracies, simply so that mankind is forced into a debate about 'higher' matters, such as his existence, what the passages actually mean, and the moral and ethical debates ensuing; non-believers of couse just say that that it's just a disparate load of stories &amp;amp; prejudices, to be taken with a pinch of salt. &lt;br /&gt;
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What you cannot claim, by any sensible and logical reading of the situation, is that it is bible infallible. How on earth could it be, or more importantly, why would it be?&lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 12:53, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:A very brief answer:  In your first paragraph, you are drawing conclusions on the basis of premises that are not accepted by Christians who believe the Bible in inerrant, and you have not shown those premises to be true.  In your second paragraph, you are claiming to know what God would think is the best thing to do, and what you consider reasonable.  Perhaps He sees it differently to you.  The first sentence of your third paragraph amounts to an assertion with no substance.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 13:22, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::(i) You mean that people do not believe that the bible was written over thousands of years by different authors? Where did it come from then?&lt;br /&gt;
:: (ii) If I cannot know the mind of God, then how can anyone? In which case how do ''you'' know what I claim about the mind of God isn't true? Surely by claiming that the bible (which you take to be the word of God) is true, ''you'' are claiming to know the mind of God, and are therefore guilty of what I stand accused.&lt;br /&gt;
:: (iii) I am not asserting anything in the last sentence; I am denying an assertion made by others on the basis of a logical argument carried out in the two paragraphs  above.&lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 13:42, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::# No, I agree it was written over about 2000 years by a number of different authors.  But you made a lot more claims that just that.&lt;br /&gt;
::::# I'm not saying that nobody can know anything about the mind of God, but to claim to know the ''best'' way for God to have done something presumes that you know all the possible implications of doing it in different ways.  It's like a surveyor mapping the best route for a new railway, then you come along and say that it would have been better to go a different way, not realising that the surveyor knew more about the situation than you, and the way you propose has some unstable ground along the route, or some other problem that you hadn't been aware of.&lt;br /&gt;
::::# You are asserting that others cannot claim the Bible to be infallible.&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::{{remove personal remark|Philip, look, I'm sure you think I'm being snarky when I say this, but you really need to educate yourself.}} Cat's slightly off with his/her dating, but not drastically off.  The Pentateuch was written over a 160-200 year span beginning about 720 BCE, with the prophetic material being written as late as 100 BCE.  The NT was written between the 5th decade of the first century CE up to (possibly) as late as 120 CE, with editing going on into the 3rd century.&lt;br /&gt;
:::The relevancy of whether the premises are supported by bible inerrantists escapes me.  History is replete with the dogmatic detritus of the denials of reality by various relious sects.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Cat's point re the second paragraph is correct -- you base your denial on a circular argument that only true believers of your ilk can &amp;quot;know the mind of god&amp;quot; and the rest of us are bereft of any comprehension.  This is an untenable and preposterous argument, a tautology of the first magnitude.&lt;br /&gt;
:::What, precisely, is Cat asserting in the third paragraph?  Nothing that I can see (other than, perhaps, a disagreement with previous assertions). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:40, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Some people believe that the Pentateuch was written from around 720 B.C. onwards (I know that already, it's not a lack of education on my part), but other people believe differently.  If you were unaware of that, perhaps ''you'' need to educate yourself.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: I'm sorry that the relevance escapes you, but what you are doing is simply denigrating people who hold a different view by claiming, without evidence, that they are denying reality.  How about proving your case (if you can) instead of just throwing insults?&lt;br /&gt;
::::: My argument was not tautologous, but perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying and hopefully my reply to CatWatcher has clarified matters.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: See my reply to CatWatcher for what she was asserting.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: In paragraph 3 I am contending that no-one could possibly claim that the bible is infallible, either pragmatically or theologically. Pragmatically it is a distillation of different sources which cannot in principle be expected to agree; theologically it must either be fallible or open to doubt. If it is neither, then it is both valid and indisputable. This means that God has provided  us with a document which proves his existence; hence faith is not required, as we have his telephone number &amp;amp; address.  The fact that he requires us to have faith, means that the bible, in principle must therefore either be fallible or questionable. QED.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 18:11, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Works for me. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 19:50, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I'm not sure that I totally follow your reasoning there, but the problem is with your definition of faith, which, biblically, is trust, based on evidence.  You seem to be assuming that faith is belief held without evidence.  See [http://tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html here] for a better explanation.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, Philip, you've proven one of my suspicions -- you ''do'' rely on the exegesis and opinions of other insofar as they suppoort your belief system.  Now, try to find, for example, a discussion of faith that is ''not'' from an apologetics site.  Faith is very much the belief in things for which there is no logical basis, no physical proof, no evidence (except in the mind of a believer -- the tautology of faith).  Why are you seemingly so afraid to go outside the safe realm of apologetics and look into other opnions? [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:30, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: [[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]]:&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 1) Many people do, in fact claim that the Bible is infallible theologically.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 2) A lesser but significant number do claim that the Bible is infallible pragmatically.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 3) &amp;quot;If it happens, it's possible.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 4) Ergo, you must be wrong when you say &amp;quot;no-one could possibly claim&amp;quot; these things. &lt;br /&gt;
::::: Take a look at TerryH's comments in the opening paragraphs of [[Conservapedia:Is the Bible a reliable source of history against which one may check all other sources?]] for an example of someone who takes Biblical accuracy pretty seriously. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:35, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Despite Phil's protestations, faith is defined by believing something ''without'' evidence.  Faith is a feeling, often a decision, to believe in something grander than nature/science. When one is overwhelmed with religious feeling or epiphany, this is a subjective phenomenon.  As most of us know, applying science to God rarely leaves either smelling right.  Dawkins denies the value of the concept of ''nonoverlapping magisteria'', but it really is a useful concept, and probably more so for Theists than Atheists.  I don't want someone coming after my faith with an electron microscope.--[[User:palmd001|PalMD]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:palmd001|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 14:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:PalMD is correct on all counts.  Faith is a very personal thing, a subjective experience based as much on a longing for purpose as any active decision to believe,  It is also much like a drug -- epiphantic moments trigger the same release of chemicals as most euphoria-causing drugs.  There is a close affinity between the faithful and people who are substance-dependant: both need to rely on internalised experience based on an external catalyst to reach some form of temporary fulfillment or psychological rapture/ecstacy. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:29, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, PalMD is not correct.  He says &amp;quot;despite [my] protestations&amp;quot;, but has said nothing to refute the linked article which explains why faith is what I said it is.  Instead, he has simply asserted without any evidence that I'm wrong.  He says that it is &amp;quot;defined&amp;quot; differently, but doesn't say where it is so defined.  I'll grant that ''one'' of the meanings of the word is probably the one that he uses, but it is also true that ''another'' meaning is the one I gave, and the real question in this is, which meaning are Christians using (as opposed to their detractors)?  Because they are quoting the Bible in support, they are using the meaning that the Bible uses, which is what the linked article was about.&lt;br /&gt;
::The problem with the non-overlapping magisteria idea is that they ''do'' overlap.  The Bible talks about things to do with astronomy, geology, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:46, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==What about the big contradiction?==&lt;br /&gt;
All of these pale beside the big contradiction&amp;amp;mdash;between the Old Testament and the New. This is usually phrased politely as saying that the New Testament &amp;quot;supersedes&amp;quot; the Old, but since the Old Testament in many places calls its laws perpetual, &amp;quot;supersedes&amp;quot; would seem to mean &amp;quot;contradicts.&amp;quot;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Thus:&lt;br /&gt;
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In religious matters, is all of the Old Testament the infallible word of God, and its laws valid for perpetuity?&lt;br /&gt;
:Old Testament: Yes. (E.g. Leviticus 3:17, &amp;quot;It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood...&amp;quot; and similar language in numerous other places).&lt;br /&gt;
:New Testament: No. Yes. Maybe. Parts. The NT says some parts of the OT are valid, some are not, but doesn't say precisely ''which.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is no simple statement in the New Testament to the the effect that &amp;quot;the New Testament supersedes the Old.&amp;quot; This view seems to be an inference from passages in the New Testament which are elliptical: Luke 22:20, &amp;quot;This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you;&amp;quot; Matthew 5:38-48, &amp;quot;Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.... Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate.&amp;quot; Mark 2:27, &amp;quot;And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So, is clear enough that according to the New Testament, with regard to religious matters not ''all'' of the Old Testament is to be considered the infallible word of God.  But nothing in the New Testament clearly catalogs ''which'' parts of the Old Testament have been superseded, leaving this to be a matter of interpretation&amp;amp;mdash;and the actual interpretation varies widely, depending on who is doing the interpretation. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 08:23, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Moreover, there is ''no'' commandment in the OT saying 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.' That is taken from the Essenes' ''Manual of Discipline'' - which, of course, opens up a whole new can of worms... --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Not being Christian, I can still appreciate the enormous beauty of the quote from Mark, but it does get confusing as to which of Leviticus's over 600 Commandments are still valid for Christians.--[[User:palmd001|PalMD]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:palmd001|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 13:28, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I always thought the New Testament was supposed to supersede/replace the Old Testament.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 22:35, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Depends on whom you believe. See the list:&lt;br /&gt;
:*Are the followers of Christ obliged to keep the whole of the Jewish Law (i.e. all 613 positive and negative provisions of it)?&lt;br /&gt;
:::Matthew 5:17-18 (Jesus): Yes&lt;br /&gt;
:::Romans 6:15 (Paul): No --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:24, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Way forward ==&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article is good, but needs a clear way forward.  First, I think the article should take a stand and argue it; namely, that the Bible is inerrant.  That will give focus to what otherwise is at risk of disintegrating.  Second, I think we should give so doctrinal statements about this.  Protestant confessional creeds have plenty, as do papal and conciliar decrees.  Likewise, one may find statements in the Church Fathers, especially Jerome.  Thus, the point that certain Christians believe in inerrancy can be suffiently explained.  Then the article could move to certain supposed contradictions, though I think perhaps the best way is to list principles for interpretation and understanding the supposed contradictions, since it will not be possible for this article to take on every single accusation made by critics. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 09:53, 26 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk:Is_the_Bible_Inerrant%3F&amp;diff=177535</id>
		<title>Conservapedia talk:Is the Bible Inerrant?</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk:Is_the_Bible_Inerrant%3F&amp;diff=177535"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T13:53:10Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* What about the big contradiction? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Question on the &amp;quot;wise men&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The counter-objection to &amp;quot;Who visited Jesus in his crib?&amp;quot; says, &amp;quot;Ah, no - sorry! Merely 'where the young child was'!&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is this meant as a retraction?  If not, perhaps it means that you've missed the point of the objection.  The point is that the magi ''didn't'' visit Jesus in the manger/crib/inn, despite all those nativity scenes showing otherwise.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Firstly, the text says that they visited him &amp;quot;in the house&amp;quot;.  Secondly, they presumably saw the star when he was born, but spent some time travelling to Bethlehem via Jerusalem, with Herod asking them about when they saw the star.  Thirdly, presumably on the basis of their answer, Herod had all the boys up to two years old.  Taken together, all these clues indicate that whilst the shepherds visited the new-born Jesus, the magi visited the toddler Jesus up to two years later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ergo, no contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By the way, it's good to see you remove a couple of &amp;quot;contradictions&amp;quot;.  Keep doing that and you'll eventually have to admit that there are none! :-)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:31, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Keep going yourself, and you'll hang yourself eventually! ;0) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:35, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Why do we even have this list?  It's all context switching!--[[User:Bill M|bill m]] 12:07, 29 March 2007 (EDT) 12:46, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I don't understand what you mean by &amp;quot;context switching&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm sure from Petrus' point of view, this article (which he created as &amp;quot;Bible Contradictions&amp;quot;) is intended to show that the Bible has mistakes, so cannot be infallible.&lt;br /&gt;
:::From my point of view, this article is/can-be useful to show (a) that many of the common bibliosceptic attacks on the Bible are just silly, and (b) the more legitimate criticisms do have answers.&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:31, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Not sure about the 'context-switching'. Personally, I'm not referring to 'contexts', but merely listing texts that appear to contradict each other. If others insist on bringing in 'contexts' to justify their objections (which usually means 'interpretations'), good luck to them - but it will merely weaken their case. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:33, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You miss the beauty of exegesis, Petre, one can make the bible say virtually anything.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:18, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As certain people, with their constant recourse to exegetical twisters, should have realised by now! ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:35, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::No doubt.  But I wonder if they've realised that in the process they've made the Bible say virtually nothing -- it all becomes a maddening din of pseudo-hosannahs, the rumblings of a  schizophrenic god and apoplectic apocalypses. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 06:07, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Especially as ''Hosanna'' means, not 'Hooray', but 'Save us now' - so they can't have shouted ''Hosanna '''to'''...'' anyone! ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:31, 31 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why ==&lt;br /&gt;
Why is there discussion going on '''in''' the article? [[User:Rob Pommer| Rob Pommer]]&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|TALK]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 12:48, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The only reason one may need to resolve possible contradictions of the Bible is to shore-up the belief that it needs to be taken literally, whenever possible.&lt;br /&gt;
:If one allows for errors in the Bible then the whole makes more than the sum of the parts.[[User:Rob Pommer| Rob Pommer]]&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|TALK]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 12:52, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yes, why have an &amp;quot;article&amp;quot; which is a debate?  The debate (if we really need one) should be here and later put to the article.--[[User:Bill M|bill m]] 12:07, 29 March 2007 (EDT) 12:55, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It's a moot point. The article was never designed to be a discussion - merely a listing of points pro and con, which is perfectly legitimate IMO. Call it an 'interactive article' if you like - but I don't see why an article shouldn't be interactive in a 'live' encyclopedia. Rather that than the uneditable, monolithic, ''ex cathedra'' pronouncements elsewhere in  Conservapedia!... --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:44, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''Rob Pommer''':  Answering alleged contradictions is not to shore up belief, but to refute bibliosceptical attacks on the Bible:  &amp;quot;''We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God...''&amp;quot; (2 Corinthians 10:5, NIV).  I don't follow the logic of your second point about the sum of the parts.&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''Rob Pommer''' and''' bill m''':  I'm not comfortable with the format.  I think it should be in the form of the criticism (the alleged contradiction) and an objection to it.  To have an objection to the objection, and an objection to the objection to the objection , does get rather silly.&lt;br /&gt;
:::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:40, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, that's true. Let's try and keep it down to an objection and a possible counter-objection wherever possible. Leave the reader to decide on the merits of that. In any case, keep it brief, and don't drag in all kinds of external commentators to try and argue the case by flattening the opposition, other than by footnote-reference. You may have noticed that ''my'' sole references are to the texts themselves. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:44, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You used the actual texts?  How quaint.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:19, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Poor Bible exegesis offered at this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I believe there is very poor [[Bible exegesis]] offered at this article.  I put some sources at the beginning of the article in order to give readers an alternative.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Specifically, I offered these web resources:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.tektonics.org/index2.html &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.inerrancy.org/ &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.christian-thinktank.com &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.apologeticspress.org/allegeddiscrepancies/&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:04, 29 March 2007 (EDT)conservative&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Conservative, perhaps you missed that two of those sites were already used in some of the objections.  But thanks for adding the other two. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:43, 29 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::But in that case shouldn't some skeptical sources be linked, too? In its original format, the article didn't cite ''any'' critical sources - for either side. In fact, in my view, that is much the best idea. Originally it didn't have anything to do with exegesis - merely with what the texts actually say. Citing exterior sources (other than the texts themselves) merely drags in a whole 'war of the commentators' that can only lead to just as much confusion and uncertainty as before. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:50, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yes indeedy they should.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::Still missing the beauty of exigesis, though eh?  I mean, think of all the really neat things Nostradamus never said but really did per the use of a non-biblical form of exegesis.  Think of all of the UFO mysteries that are cleared up in the same fashion.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:28, 30 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Not to be nit-picky but...==&lt;br /&gt;
The portion:&lt;br /&gt;
''*Can the Sun and Moon ever appear together in the sky at the same time?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Psalm 136:8-9 No. God created &amp;quot;The sun to rule by day...The moon and stars to rule by night.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
Genesis 1:16: No. God created &amp;quot;two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night...&amp;quot;''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Objection 2: The passages in Psalms and Genesis should be taken figuratively rather than literally and thus do not mean that the Moon is always visible at night, nor that it is never visible during the day.'' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd advise caution here unless it is your intent TO bring up the &amp;quot;when do we '''know''' we're ''supposed'' to take the Bible literally and when to take it figuratively&amp;quot; argument.&lt;br /&gt;
Not really a point, just an observation.--[[User:Rob Pommer| Cracker]]&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|talk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 09:47, 2 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I suppose the real issue here is that one cannot claim infallibility when one ceases to be literal.  Once one wanders of into the realm of allegory and uses figurative devices &amp;quot;truth&amp;quot; becomes subjective.  In other words, the Bible is either the literal truth or it's allegory, but once you allow for the latter you can lay no claim to the former. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 06:02, 3 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So are you suggesting that if someone you were talking to on the telephone said that &amp;quot;it's raining cats and dogs here&amp;quot;, you would have no idea whether or not that was literally true?  Is it not the case that metaphor, parable, analogy, etc. can be recognised by the context and/or the language, and that it is therefore possible to take literally the parts that are meant to be taken literally whilst acknowledging the existence of non-literal parts?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:24, 3 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Most people I know don't claim to be infallible.  [[User:Myk|Myk]] 02:39, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Philip, your argument falls apart for several reasons.  Myk has pointed out one of them: if no claim of infallibility is made or implied, there is no reason to assume same.  Another is that as many literalists purport that every word of the bible is the infallible word of God, they simply can't turn around and say, &amp;quot;oh, that part? that's just a story&amp;quot;.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 05:43, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I couldn't actually see the point of Myk's comment.  Claiming or not claiming infallibility says nothing about whether or not something is metaphor, parable, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
::I think you've got the wrong idea about infallibility.  Christians believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God and is therefore infallible, but that means that it infallibly records people doing the wrong thing, infallibly records the lies that people told, etc.  It does ''not'' mean that every word is literally true and that literary devices such as metaphor and parable are not used.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:49, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Clarity in language is important.  If something is claimed to be infallible, it best be awfully clear in its language.  Go up to someone who has just learned how to speak English and tell them it's raining cats and dogs, see what kind of reaction you get.  Further, in biblical times a rain of cats and dogs doesn't seem that implausible (see: Plague of Frogs). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Literal truth of the bible means just that.  Literal, not metaphorical. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 12:52, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::That something claimed to be infallible should be clear is your opinion, not a requirement of infallibility.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::We are talking about infallibility, not literalism.  Despite NousEpirrhytos' comment below, they are two distinct concepts.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:10, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Myk, I think we're arguing logic with the wrong person.  BTW, Phil, generally speaking infallible, inerrant and literal are used interchangeably when used by fundamentalists and evangelicals. &lt;br /&gt;
::::Another BTW, Phil, do you claim to speak for all Christians?  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 18:45, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I disagree that &amp;quot;infallible&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;inerrant&amp;quot; are ''generally'' used interchangeably with &amp;quot;literal&amp;quot; when used by fundamentalists and evangelicals.  Perhaps some uninformed Christians use them interchangeably, but they are clearly different things.  I see bibliosceptics conflating them more than I see Christians conflating them.  (&amp;quot;Infallible&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;inerrant&amp;quot; may be used interchangeably, as they are very close if not identical in meaning.)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Of course I don't claim to speak for all Christians.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:10, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You are of course free to your own opinion.  Unfortunately as I have seen (in print) and heard Biblethumpers using the words interchangeably, I really can't agree with you.&lt;br /&gt;
::::But, y'know what cracks me up, your use of &amp;quot;bibliosceptics&amp;quot;, a neologism that does not mean what you think it does (look up &amp;quot;bibliophile&amp;quot; and ye shall find understanding).  In any case, you seem to think that treating the bible just like one would treat any other book is a bad thing -- in reality, in casting a critical eye on books one can gain much wisdom.  Alas, I suppose you're content to settle for a belief in salvation, staying far away from the tree of knowledge (after all, you might find that some things you thought to be good are evil, and those you thought to be evil, good). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 18:31, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What's this article trying to achieve? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Actually, I think the answer to that question, as far as the original editor is concerned, is obvious.  It's to discredit the Bible as the infallible Word of God.  My reason for having it (as I added to it) is to demonstrate that the alleged contradictions are not in fact contradictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is it the intention to list every &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; ever ''claimed''?  Because if it is, there is no way to achieve that without making the page ridiculously large.  Perhaps it is to just show a few samples?  But so far there's been no discussion about what sorts of alleged contradictions should be included.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And frankly, many of the allegations are plain silly.  In fact I quoted someone saying that about one of the alleged contradictions, and Petrus [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Alleged_Bible_contradictions&amp;amp;diff=72033&amp;amp;oldid=72032 removed] the comment.  Fair enough, it was supposed to be an answer to the allegation, not a commentary on the allegation, so I didn't restore it.  But it needs to be said somewhere.  Let's look at this one a bit closer, because it epitomises the problems with the list.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Two sayings (aka proverbs) that most would be familiar with are:&lt;br /&gt;
* Many hands make light work.&lt;br /&gt;
* Too many cooks spoil the broth.&lt;br /&gt;
Are these two sayings contradictory?  Taken literally, then yes they are.  But does anyone object to them on those grounds?  Of course not.  Despite them probably being coined by different people at different times, the validity of both is accepted, because neither claims to be always true and both have their place.  Sometimes, more helpers ease the burden on others, but at other times too many people result in them getting in each other's way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So what are we to make of a proverb in the Bible that says, 'Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.&amp;quot;?  Is this seriously a contradiction, or like the saying above, are both sentences true in some cases?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
To claim that they are contradictory, one must:&lt;br /&gt;
* Ignore the fact that they are ''sayings'', not truth-claims that have no exceptions, and read the text literally.  Bibliosceptics love to criticise Creationists and fundamentalists for reading the Bible literally, despite them repeatedly saying that they only do this where it was ''meant'' literally, whilst still recognising metaphors, parables, etc.  Yet here we have a bibliosceptic reading the text literally in order to make a claim of a contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
* Presume that the original author was so incompetent that he would write two consecutive sentences contradicting each other, apparently without realising it.&lt;br /&gt;
* Further presume that many others who included the book of Proverbs in the canon, or who copied it over and over, or who write commentaries on it, are also so incompetent that they never noticed the &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
* Reject these sorts of explanations and maintain that it ''is'' a contradiction, with the astounding observation that the text doesn't say &amp;quot;this&amp;quot;, meaning the answer given.  Well the sayings above don't say that they are both true in different circumstances either, but that is something people are simply expected to understand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we have the case of the number of stables that Solomon had.  Christians who believe that the Bible is infallible do not believe that all human translations and copies are infallible, but that the original autographs were (although they do believe that the copies are very accurate copies).  So if they ''occasionally'' answer that an apparent contradiction is a copyist error (as in the case of the number of stables), it does ''not'' follow that the Bible is therefore not infallible, except in the mind of the bibliosceptic who is doing his best to find all the contradictions he can, perhaps to bolster his own faith.  Keep in mind that the answer to that &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; included a link (and remember that Petrus doesn't want to include links) that explained all that.  Neither does he want the sort of long explanations that including all that in the article would entail.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not saying that all claimed contradictions are silly.  Some claims of contradictions are fair enough, in that they really do ''appear'' to be contradictions, and deserve to be answered.  The number of stables one is an example, but the article should state the apparent contradiction, provide the answer, and leave it at that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In summary, many claimed contradictions in the Bible are nothing more than bibliosceptics grasping at straws and applying criteria that they wouldn't apply in any other situation, in order to try and prove their viewpoint that the Bible is fallible.  I don't believe that this article should waste its time on those sorts of &amp;quot;contradictions&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:30, 3 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Hmmm....shall I take the time to point out all of the fallacies of the above?  Part of me would like to write a long refutation, but the wiser part knows this to be fruitless.  So, I'll just give one example:&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;*&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; Many hands make light work. &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;*&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt; Too many cooks spoil the broth.  You're assuming that the statements are equal but there is a quantitative difference: yes, many hands may make the work easier but at a certain point, the people begin tripping over each other and thus, as they actually impede the work, there is a point, the ''ne plus ultra'', that tips the balance from a comfy many to a disastrous too many.  No contradiction.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 05:50, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thank you for supporting my point!  To quote Petrus' counter-objection to the very &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; I was discussing here, &amp;quot;'''But the text does not actually say this.'''&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:: I figured it would probably be fruitless to convince you blokes too, but I tried anyway.&lt;br /&gt;
::  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:47, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::While we're on the topic:&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;He who hesitates is lost&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Look before you leap&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;Cut your losses and let your profits run&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Buy low, sell high.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;Absence makes the heart grow fonder&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Out of sight, out of mind&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::&amp;quot;If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.&amp;quot; / &amp;quot;Don't beat a dead horse.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::19:45, 4 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Excellent examples! - in fact there are few well-known proverbs that don't also have their opposites. But then that makes the point perfectly. No given 'pair' is likely to have been produced by the same person. Their very oppositeness suggests different hands with different views, ''not a single, monolithic author''.&lt;br /&gt;
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And no, my purpose wasn't 'to discredit the Bible as the infallible Word of God' - merely to provoke people actually to look at the words (in some cases, apparently for the first time!) and decide for themselves whether that proposition is really tenable in the light of the facts. Thus, 'to discredit ''the dogma'' that the Bible is the infallible Word of God', possibly. But about the Bible I'm perfectly neutral. It's indubitably there, and it indubitably says what it says. I merely urge that people read it through clear glass, not stained glass. It's better for the eyes, you know!--[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:45, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yet you appear to be reading it through the eyes of a hyper-literalist, rather than as it was meant to be understood.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:56, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How do you know how it is &amp;quot;meant&amp;quot; to be understood? How do you know, for instance, that Genesis 1 was meant to be understood literally? [[User:Chrysogonus|Chrysogonus]] 18:54, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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...other than by reading it through stained glass? Why can't the text simply be allowed to say what it says, warts and all, without imposing your own dogmas and preconceptions on it - such as the man-made myth of God-given infallibility? Isn't this perilously close to ''biblolatry'', in direct infringement of the spirit of the second commandment? Do you honestly think the Bible needs ''your'' protection from the light of reality, let alone that of all the commentators whom Conservative seems intent on importing into the argument? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:53, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:As noted above, it is best to read the bible in a literary manner, that is to say, the same way you'd read any other book.  I've always been amused by folks who dismiss Odysseus tricking the cyclops to save his men as far-fetched mythology and yet cling to the almost parallel David v Goliath story.  Both stories are allegorical myths, not litteral renderings of &amp;quot;history&amp;quot;. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 08:27, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::You determine how something is meant to be understood by the language used (e.g., does it conform to the style of poetry, narrative, etc.?), and by the culture for whom it was written.  If, for example, a sentence said &amp;quot;The rock landed on the marquee&amp;quot;, would you understand it to mean that the rock landed on a large tent, or on a canopy projecting out over the entrance to a large building?  The correct answer depends on whether the writer was writing for an Australian or British audience, or an American audience.  You can also look at how others who would know how to read it understood it, if such records exist.  For example, Jesus referred to various aspects of the Genesis narrative as though it was historical fact; He didn't understand it as allegorical myth.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:48, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Precisely. The Genesis narrative was written for (and by) a people living nearly three thousand years ago, and Jesus lived two thousand years ago. That cultural difference is the whole explanation of why the narrative doesn't say, 'The Earth was formed as a result of the agglomeration of cosmic dust some 4,500 million years ago', and why Jesus didn't understand it that way: none of the concepts involved was understood at the time. (Just as well that, as a healer, he had never heard of the symptomatology of schizophrenia!) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:08, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Jesus was the Creator, so he would know, and He endorsed what Genesis said.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:58, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Well, technically, the only thing we know is that second-hand accounts claimed that Jesus endorsed what Genesis said.  We ain't got nothin' from Jesus himself.  Jesus didn't write anything.  --[[User:ReaganLives|ReaganLives]] 08:46, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If you want to get technical about it, the ultimate author of the Bible was God, Jesus is God, ergo Jesus is the author of the Bible, so we do have it from Jesus Himself.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:33, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I think Jesus is inerrant, therefore he couldn't have written the Bible.  Too many internal consistencies.  Why don't you believe Jesus is inerrant?  Are you a liberal?  --[[User:ReaganLives|ReaganLives]] 12:55, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::I suspect that what you've typed there is not what you meant to type, but as typed, it doesn't make sense.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Or so it's reported in the Gospels.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, if you read the bible in the cultural context, something that is part of any literary reading or scholarship, you'd understand why, for example, the creation stories are written as they are.  They are attempts to explain the then unknowable &amp;quot;whence came we?&amp;quot;, but from different perspectives, separated in time by about 160 years. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 09:11, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I agree that it should be understood in its cultural context; that's effectively one of the things I've been saying.  But I disagree that the cultural context is that of trying to explain the unknowable.  If the Bible is correct, the &amp;quot;unknowable&amp;quot; was revealed by God, thus known.  I don't understand the reference to 160 years.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:20, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Then, I would suggest you indulge your curiosity in some real Bible scholarship, rather than reading only those interpretations meant to make members of the evangelical community feel more secure in their ''argumenta ad ignoratium''.  I can suggest two well-respected books, based on true interdisciplinary scholarship, if you wish.&lt;br /&gt;
:::BTW, what's with the edit summary &amp;quot;Jesus knew&amp;quot;? -- how would you (or anyone else for that matter) know what Jesus &amp;quot;knew&amp;quot;. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 16:20, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Thanks for the condescending remarks.  As the Creator, Jesus obviously knew how creation occurred.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:43, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::Unless, of course, he wasn't and didn't. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:14, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Vero, Petre.  Interesting that Philip states religious dogma as fact.  Note, Philip, that I did not use the theological title &amp;quot;Christ&amp;quot; (i.e., Jesus as God), but rather used his human name, thus referring to Jesus as a man.  Thus, having clarified my question, I shall ask again: how would you (or anyone else for that matter) know what Jesus &amp;quot;knew&amp;quot;.  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 08:10, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: I was stating it in a matter-of-fact way because I was answering the question of how Jesus would know.  That's how He would know, and in that context it was proper to put it in that way.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I fail to grasp the distinction that you are making between Jesus as God and Jesus as man, therefore my answer stands.  Are you suggesting that the man Jesus was totally oblivious to what He had done as God?&lt;br /&gt;
:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:33, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::''Who said'' Jesus is God? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:58, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::The Bible does.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:39, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::But the Koran doesn't - and the Koran is the Word of God. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 10:54, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::So?  You asked who does say it, and the Bible does say it, so the Koran ''not'' saying it doesn't change that.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:37, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Further proof of the need to read.  I'm talking about assuming Jesus to be just a man, not a god.  Try to consider that possibility...it will not harm your faith and you might even learn something in the process.  Also, why not try (if you haven't, already) reading the bible without relying on exegesis or the opinions of others, there again you might learn something.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Obviously, I have no ken of precisely what you know or think, but it seems, based on what you've written here, that your knowledge is limited to monolithic dogma and that you might think that those of us who see the bible as a book are bereft of biblical knowledge (in the true sense, not some cosmic exegetical sense).  [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 10:50, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::Hey, if you want to get hypothetical and propose that Jesus was not God at all, then sure, he would not have known.  But why not also hypothesise that Jesus didn't exist, or that the Bible was written by Shakespeare or something?  The point is that I was answering a question about how I would know how Genesis was intended to be understood, and part of my answer was to rely on what Jesus understood it to mean.  By &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot;, I mean the bloke in the New Testament who was actually God and who was actually the Creator.  That's what '''I''' meant by &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot;.  The response was to ask how Jesus would know if he ''wasn't'' God.  Well sure, if He wasn't God, he wouldn't know, but I was answering the question according to my understanding of who Jesus was.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:49, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::On the basis of what evidence? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:55, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::The Bible.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:39, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, this discussion has gone as far as it can.  The illogic displayed by Philip is a clear indication that he is not willing to learn anything, and that his lithocephalic attachment to what he &amp;quot;believes&amp;quot; will neither allow him to learn nor to debate in a rational manner.  Sad, really. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:59, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::So now you accuse me of being illogical without showing that I have been illogical.  Nice.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:47, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::'The Bible' (a whole library of different books, most of which don't even mention Jesus at all) is not evidence, any more than 'the police department's computer' is evidence that Joe Bloggs burgled your house. Cite the precise evidence that Jesus is God, or stop making such absurd claims as that he was the Creator (which even most traditional Christians don't believe) - ideas which, as a faithful Jew, he cannot possibly have supported himself. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:51, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::I can't see the analogy between the Bible and the police computer, but why can't the police computer contain the evidence of a burglary?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Are you unaware of the verses in the Bible that say that Jesus was the Creator?  I can quote them if you want, but I suspect that you already know them and reject them for some reason.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Why couldn't Jesus have supported that idea?&lt;br /&gt;
::::::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:49, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Additional topic for study for Phillip: Judaism.  12:53, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Thanks for the non-answer.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, it's most definitely an answer.  A bit cryptic perhaps, but surely someone gifted in exegesis should be able to pluck the meaning out of the chasm of calypsis. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 15:43, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::No, it's telling me in what topic of study I could find an answer, bit it's not an answer itself.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:26, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Do you really think I'm going to continue in this vein? Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is ... please, the bottom line is that you need to search out the answers on your own: as you seem to think that Petrus and I are clueless, there is little point in either of us explaining the answers to you.  Seek and ye shall find! [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 05:56, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Petrus' comment of 05:51, 8 April 2007 (EDT) shows but one example of Philip's illogic.  Another example would be this sentence, &amp;quot;But why not also hypothesise that Jesus didn't exist, or that the Bible was written by Shakespeare or something?&amp;quot;  This is an absurd extrapolation that has no basis in what I said, and as such is an illogical response.  Also Philip, while I'm sure you're unaware of this, you should know that for nearly two millenia there have been raging debates within the Chistian community regarding to what extent and where Jesus can use his &amp;quot;supernaural&amp;quot; powers.  For example -- for the crucifxion to be a valid sacrifice leading to salvation, Jesus must be all man during that period.  Also, early Christianity were beset with a variety of &amp;quot;heresies&amp;quot; (litteraly &amp;quot;schools of thought) that, had they been adopted, would have profoundly changed your current beliefs.  See ''Donatism, Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, Montanism'' and ''Docetism''. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:18, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is a rather large extrapolation, to make a point, but it's only an extrapolation, not an example of bad logic.  Even if you are correct about Jesus needing to be all man (and I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing), how does that affect what I said?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:49, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::I can't think of any convincing evidence from the Bible that Jesus thought he was God, let alone the Creator - so perhaps you'd better enlighten us? Simple references will do. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 10:54, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::I hope you mean that you can't think of any references, rather than you can't think of any &amp;quot;convincing evidence&amp;quot;, else I'm probably wasting my time.  But here are two (both are talking about Jesus):&lt;br /&gt;
{{QuoteBox|In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:1-3, NIV)}}&lt;br /&gt;
{{QuoteBox|For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Colossians 1:16, NIV)}}&lt;br /&gt;
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:(reduce indent)Equating Jesus with the nebulous &amp;quot;the Word&amp;quot; requires exegesis based on several bad assumptions.  The actor (subject) in Colossians, in both the original Greek and the English, is unclear (likely intentionally), and the verses from 1:10 through 1:20 need to be considered in order for 1:16 to be read properly: it is '''not''' a standalone sentence, it is part of a series of subordinate clauses.  Yanking biblical quotes out of context is one of the causes of poor understanding and is certainly poor scholarship. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 13:05, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::And yet you have not actually demonstrated that I used them out of context or inappropriately.  Would Hebrews 1:1-2 (NIV) be more acceptable?{{quoteBox|In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.}} [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::There's also Mark: &amp;quot;The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
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:::::::As for Jesus himself, there's Matthew 16:13-17, {{QuoteBox|When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.}}&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::How do you parse this? It's not clear to me why Jesus consistently prefers to call himself the &amp;quot;Son of man,&amp;quot; and the annotation in the Oxford Annotated Bible is rather vague: &amp;quot;''Son of man,'' a title which Jesus used of himself, probably seemed to his listeners to carry either of two meanings: (a) that Jesus called himself a typical human being... or (b) that Jesus ... linked himself to the prophesied figure of Dan.7.13-14... Jesus nowhere fully discloses his own understanding of the term.&amp;quot; Still, in the above passage, it seems to me that after Peter calls Jesus &amp;quot;the Son of the living God,&amp;quot; Jesus ''endorses this as valid divine revelation to Peter.'' That isn't Jesus calling himself the Son of God, but isn't it awfully close?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Still, this brings up something that bothers me. When people say &amp;quot;the Bible says,&amp;quot; sometimes it means &amp;quot;the Bible says,&amp;quot; but quite often it means &amp;quot;someone ''in'' the Bible says.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
:::::::For example, &amp;quot;the Bible&amp;quot; indeed says &amp;quot;And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::But &amp;quot;the Bible&amp;quot; does not say &amp;quot;And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.&amp;quot; Rather, the Bible says Moses says God said this.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::The problem here is whether or not everybody quoted in the Bible has equal authority. Are we allowed to make such judgements, or not? Does the Bible say &amp;quot;For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;a living dog is better than a dead lion?&amp;quot; If we're allowed to say, &amp;quot;no, that's not God, that's just Solomon,&amp;quot; then why aren't we allowed to say about Romans 1:26-27, &amp;quot;no, that's not God, that's just Paul?&amp;quot; If everything in the Bible is of equal authority, then why do some Bibles print the words of Christ in red? If everything in the Bible is of equal authority, then why do so few Christians obey the kosher dietary laws? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 14:09, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::True, one must be careful to distinguish between what the Bible is teaching and what it is simply reporting.  It does include reports of incorrect information by various people.  But I believe that &amp;quot;the Bible says&amp;quot; is an acceptable way of describing your example about the creatures without fins and scales, given that it is quoting God.  If it was quoting Satan, or an evil king, to mention two possibilities, then it would be quite misleading to say &amp;quot;the Bible says&amp;quot; in this case. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Thanks for sharing that tautology -- &amp;quot;the bible says this, so it must be true&amp;quot; -- and I agree that it is very troubling when arguments of this sort are presented: validation based on an original source is hardly very compelling.  Basic problem is that these are written after Paul had established that Jesus was the &amp;quot;anointed one&amp;quot; -- note that the Greek Khristos is applied to both Jesus and David (among others), and the &amp;quot;anointed one&amp;quot; in Judaism ''is'' a son of man who becomes king ( a la David).   [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:41, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm not sure what you are referring to with the tautology reference, because nobody said those precise words.  But if you are referring to me, I don't believe that I said anything that amounts to that.  If you think otherwise, please quote or clearly point to the precise thing I did say.  However, your quote, as it stands, is not actually a tautology anyway.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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1. 'Son of God' does ''not'' mean 'God'. All Israelites were 'sons of God' ''by definition''. That's why David claims the same title at Psalm 2:7 (at the same time making it clear that it's ''by adoption''), and why Jesus was able to teach his followers to pray 'Our Father...'&lt;br /&gt;
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2. 'The Messiah, the Son of God' seems to have been a pre-existing title at the time (cf Schonfield): it referred to the 'Son of God' (i.e. the archetypal Israelite) who was to come - the particular 'son of man' (''bar enash'' or, in Hebrew, ''ben adam'', which ''still'' means 'man' even today) referred to by the book of Daniel.&lt;br /&gt;
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4. In your quote from the beginning of John, the 'and the Word was God' bit should almost certainly read 'and the Word was divine'. Otherwise it simply doesn't make sense in terms of the previous sentence, let alone in terms of the familiar Pharisaic doctrine of the ''logos'' (i.e. the Adam Kadmon, or man-thought-in-the-mind-of-God) that is reflected not only in the text, but in the traditional Jewish wedding service ('last in creation, first in thought').&lt;br /&gt;
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5. Not only does the Koran not say that Jesus was God, it specifically denies that Jesus was even his son (i.e. in the normal sense of the word). So, since the Koran claims repeatedly to be the word of God, whereas the Bible doesn't claim to be (it can't have done, since it didn't exist as a book for the claim to be made at the time when it was written), it's clearly the Koran that should be believed, if anything...&lt;br /&gt;
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6. You have told us what Paul thought about it and what John thought about it, but I asked you what ''Jesus'' thought about it. So far, you haven't told us a single word about that. Why are you being so evasive? ''Please give us convincing evidence from the Bible that Jesus thought he was God (let alone 'the Creator')''. Just the simple references will do: no need to write a novel about it.&lt;br /&gt;
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Oh - and if you ''must'' quote the passages concerned, please use a more reputable translation than the NIV! --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:57, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Yes, thank you, Petre.  Paul's opinions are nice, and without them Paulism, er Christianity might never have gotten off the ground, but they are merely Paul's opinions.  Phil, you need to do a bit more reading into the logos theory (among all the other reading you really should do).&lt;br /&gt;
:Phil, reread what Dpbsmith wrote, the problems to which he refered and perhaps you'll understand the point.  Also, if English is the best you can do, pick a better source than the NIV.  Of course, I have the advantage of being able to read Greek (the language of the NT), and as a linguist I know that no translation can capture precisely what was said in the other language (especially shades of meaning and double entendres), thus I am able to compare and contrast the sources and develop a fuller understanding of the text. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 06:30, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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----&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not continuing this discussion any more, as it has strayed far from the original topic yet the original points have mostly not been addressed.  I'll give a few examples so that that is not just an unsubstantiated assertion.&lt;br /&gt;
* I noted that there has been no discussion of what sorts of alleged contradictions should be listed.  There has still been no such discussion.&lt;br /&gt;
* I asked why a police computer could not contain evidence of a burglary.  There was no reply to that question.&lt;br /&gt;
* I said that the Bible said that Jesus was the Creator.  I was asked to supply evidence that Jesus thought He was the Creator.  I supplied evidence that the Bible referred to Jesus as the Creator.  This was dismissed because it didn't show ''that Jesus thought that''.  But that is not what I claimed.  I was actually asked to provide evidence to something I didn't claim, only to have my answer dismissed because it didn't meet the straw-man.&lt;br /&gt;
The discussion has also diverted into whether the Old Testament and the New Testament agree, which again is nothing to do with the issue I raised.  All this discussion is taking time to answer, and it's time that I'm not prepared to spend any longer when the issues that I raised are not being addressed but are instead being used to launch into new criticisms.&lt;br /&gt;
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See you all on other talk pages.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:01, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Protected debate page? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Whats the deal with the protected debate page? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 18:57, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Conservative apparently went on a &amp;quot;Clean up unsourced statements&amp;quot; trip (blocked Hoji in the process for re-inserting things - who then unblocked himself because he's so awesome), not realizing that this is not in the Main space anymore. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 19:02, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I then went to delete some other unsourced stuff. But, CPAdmin1 reverted it, and I have asked him why, because this is ridiculous to the N&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; degree. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#0000CC&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;00FFAA&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 19:05, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== This &amp;quot;namespace&amp;quot;  is a joke. It claimed people to be scholars who weren't ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Hoji wrote to me regarding [[Conservapedia:Alleged Bible contradictions]] the following: &amp;quot; It is a Conservapedia: namespace, is NOT AN ARTICLE, and does NOT need citations.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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I can't think of anything more detrimental to Conservapedia than to be filled with &amp;quot;Namespaces&amp;quot; (whatever those are)  because people can say just about any foolish thing without backing it up.  &lt;br /&gt;
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The &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; page is a monstrosity claiming people to be &amp;quot;critical scholars&amp;quot; who have no real credentials ('''Unix systems engineer'''), etc. &lt;br /&gt;
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What's with this whole &amp;quot;namespace&amp;quot; idea?  &lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:13, 5 April 2007 (EDT)conservative&lt;br /&gt;
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: The namespace means its not a real article and lets people bicker back and foreth without the threat of getting banned.  Citations are not needed (unless you presume to go clean up the other Conservapedia namespace articles that lack citations). What are your credentials anyways? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:16, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Especially where the introductory remarks merely refer to what ''generally'' happens - on ''both'' sides of the argument! One almost gets the impression that ''somebody'' is afraid to have both sides stated! Such paranoia is both unworthy and unnecessary. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:58, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: *sigh* Ask first, act then. It's not quantum physics. &amp;quot;Namespace&amp;quot; = a sort of container, filled with articles. All regular articles are in the &amp;quot;Main&amp;quot; namespace (for example, [[Theory of evolution]] is in the main namespace). Article Talk pages (like [[Talk:Theory of evolution]]) are in the &amp;quot;Talk&amp;quot; namespace. Same goes for pages in the &amp;quot;Help&amp;quot; namespace (all articles starting with &amp;quot;Help:...&amp;quot;) or the &amp;quot;Conservapedia&amp;quot; namespace (like this &amp;quot;article&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
:Articles in the &amp;quot;Conservapedia&amp;quot; namespace are NOT regular articles. All debates are in it, along with a few special pages about Conservapedia itself. This &amp;quot;article&amp;quot; was moved from the &amp;quot;Main&amp;quot; namespace to the &amp;quot;Conservapedia&amp;quot; namespace - most likely BECAUSE it's not a normal article and more of a debate.&lt;br /&gt;
:As you may have noticed, debates fall a bit out of the normal rules - not everything must be sourced (althouth it helps). Original research and argumentation is naturally a part of a debate, so it's completely counter-intuitive to suddenly &amp;quot;clean up&amp;quot; things - you're destroying a debate archive. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 19:24, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::This is a prime example of why, instead of reverting blindly without even understanding the Wiki model, you should consult other editors. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#0000CC&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;00FFAA&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 19:32, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==&amp;quot;Contradictions need to be proved&amp;quot;==&lt;br /&gt;
Looks like a long paragraph of someone's personal opinion. Is there a source somewhere that defines what a &amp;quot;Biblical contradiction&amp;quot; is? A generally accepted rulebook that says whom the &amp;quot;onus&amp;quot; is upon and so forth? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 16:33, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:A biblical contradiction is the same as any other contradictions, and contradictions are generally the responsibility of the speaker/writer or his/her representatives to clear up. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 16:38, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== I do not understand this argument. ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Could someone please explain to me how {{remove personal remark|anyone in their right mind could think}} this is a sensible argument to have? The collection of works called the bible was written over thousands of years by a load of different guys in various languages, with different agendas, different points of view, and using their limited understanding of the world as it was at the time they wrote it. Following this, bits were lost, added to, lost again, and then transcribed, translated, re-transcribed, re-translated etc. by a whole load of different guys all struggling to make sense out of a fragmented text in a different language, sno longer spoken. How on earth would anyone expect that there would not be inaccuracies and contradictions arising from that process?&lt;br /&gt;
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... and if you claim that 'God guided the hand of the writers, translators etc...&amp;quot;, think again. &lt;br /&gt;
Why on earth (or in heaven) would he bother? Wouldn't it have been much simpler to write the thing once and set it in stone for all time, and ensure that his word was preserved intact? If God actually wanted that, then that was what he would have done. Come on guys, think about it... even if you are a believer, the real point about having a bible is that it does contain inaccuracies. No believer can be 100% sure that God has not deliberately inserted inaccuracies, simply so that mankind is forced into a debate about 'higher' matters, such as his existence, what the passages actually mean, and the moral and ethical debates ensuing; non-believers of couse just say that that it's just a disparate load of stories &amp;amp; prejudices, to be taken with a pinch of salt. &lt;br /&gt;
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What you cannot claim, by any sensible and logical reading of the situation, is that it is bible infallible. How on earth could it be, or more importantly, why would it be?&lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 12:53, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:A very brief answer:  In your first paragraph, you are drawing conclusions on the basis of premises that are not accepted by Christians who believe the Bible in inerrant, and you have not shown those premises to be true.  In your second paragraph, you are claiming to know what God would think is the best thing to do, and what you consider reasonable.  Perhaps He sees it differently to you.  The first sentence of your third paragraph amounts to an assertion with no substance.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 13:22, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::(i) You mean that people do not believe that the bible was written over thousands of years by different authors? Where did it come from then?&lt;br /&gt;
:: (ii) If I cannot know the mind of God, then how can anyone? In which case how do ''you'' know what I claim about the mind of God isn't true? Surely by claiming that the bible (which you take to be the word of God) is true, ''you'' are claiming to know the mind of God, and are therefore guilty of what I stand accused.&lt;br /&gt;
:: (iii) I am not asserting anything in the last sentence; I am denying an assertion made by others on the basis of a logical argument carried out in the two paragraphs  above.&lt;br /&gt;
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--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 13:42, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::# No, I agree it was written over about 2000 years by a number of different authors.  But you made a lot more claims that just that.&lt;br /&gt;
::::# I'm not saying that nobody can know anything about the mind of God, but to claim to know the ''best'' way for God to have done something presumes that you know all the possible implications of doing it in different ways.  It's like a surveyor mapping the best route for a new railway, then you come along and say that it would have been better to go a different way, not realising that the surveyor knew more about the situation than you, and the way you propose has some unstable ground along the route, or some other problem that you hadn't been aware of.&lt;br /&gt;
::::# You are asserting that others cannot claim the Bible to be infallible.&lt;br /&gt;
::::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::{{remove personal remark|Philip, look, I'm sure you think I'm being snarky when I say this, but you really need to educate yourself.}} Cat's slightly off with his/her dating, but not drastically off.  The Pentateuch was written over a 160-200 year span beginning about 720 BCE, with the prophetic material being written as late as 100 BCE.  The NT was written between the 5th decade of the first century CE up to (possibly) as late as 120 CE, with editing going on into the 3rd century.&lt;br /&gt;
:::The relevancy of whether the premises are supported by bible inerrantists escapes me.  History is replete with the dogmatic detritus of the denials of reality by various relious sects.&lt;br /&gt;
:::Cat's point re the second paragraph is correct -- you base your denial on a circular argument that only true believers of your ilk can &amp;quot;know the mind of god&amp;quot; and the rest of us are bereft of any comprehension.  This is an untenable and preposterous argument, a tautology of the first magnitude.&lt;br /&gt;
:::What, precisely, is Cat asserting in the third paragraph?  Nothing that I can see (other than, perhaps, a disagreement with previous assertions). [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:40, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Some people believe that the Pentateuch was written from around 720 B.C. onwards (I know that already, it's not a lack of education on my part), but other people believe differently.  If you were unaware of that, perhaps ''you'' need to educate yourself.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: I'm sorry that the relevance escapes you, but what you are doing is simply denigrating people who hold a different view by claiming, without evidence, that they are denying reality.  How about proving your case (if you can) instead of just throwing insults?&lt;br /&gt;
::::: My argument was not tautologous, but perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying and hopefully my reply to CatWatcher has clarified matters.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: See my reply to CatWatcher for what she was asserting.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: In paragraph 3 I am contending that no-one could possibly claim that the bible is infallible, either pragmatically or theologically. Pragmatically it is a distillation of different sources which cannot in principle be expected to agree; theologically it must either be fallible or open to doubt. If it is neither, then it is both valid and indisputable. This means that God has provided  us with a document which proves his existence; hence faith is not required, as we have his telephone number &amp;amp; address.  The fact that he requires us to have faith, means that the bible, in principle must therefore either be fallible or questionable. QED.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]] 18:11, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Works for me. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 19:50, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: I'm not sure that I totally follow your reasoning there, but the problem is with your definition of faith, which, biblically, is trust, based on evidence.  You seem to be assuming that faith is belief held without evidence.  See [http://tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html here] for a better explanation.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Well, Philip, you've proven one of my suspicions -- you ''do'' rely on the exegesis and opinions of other insofar as they suppoort your belief system.  Now, try to find, for example, a discussion of faith that is ''not'' from an apologetics site.  Faith is very much the belief in things for which there is no logical basis, no physical proof, no evidence (except in the mind of a believer -- the tautology of faith).  Why are you seemingly so afraid to go outside the safe realm of apologetics and look into other opnions? [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 07:30, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: [[User:CatWatcher|CatWatcher]]:&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 1) Many people do, in fact claim that the Bible is infallible theologically.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 2) A lesser but significant number do claim that the Bible is infallible pragmatically.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 3) &amp;quot;If it happens, it's possible.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::::: 4) Ergo, you must be wrong when you say &amp;quot;no-one could possibly claim&amp;quot; these things. &lt;br /&gt;
::::: Take a look at TerryH's comments in the opening paragraphs of [[Conservapedia:Is the Bible a reliable source of history against which one may check all other sources?]] for an example of someone who takes Biblical accuracy pretty seriously. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:35, 7 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Despite Phil's protestations, faith is defined by believing something ''without'' evidence.  Faith is a feeling, often a decision, to believe in something grander than nature/science. When one is overwhelmed with religious feeling or epiphany, this is a subjective phenomenon.  As most of us know, applying science to God rarely leaves either smelling right.  Dawkins denies the value of the concept of ''nonoverlapping magisteria'', but it really is a useful concept, and probably more so for Theists than Atheists.  I don't want someone coming after my faith with an electron microscope.--[[User:palmd001|PalMD]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:palmd001|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 14:17, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:PalMD is correct on all counts.  Faith is a very personal thing, a subjective experience based as much on a longing for purpose as any active decision to believe,  It is also much like a drug -- epiphantic moments trigger the same release of chemicals as most euphoria-causing drugs.  There is a close affinity between the faithful and people who are substance-dependant: both need to rely on internalised experience based on an external catalyst to reach some form of temporary fulfillment or psychological rapture/ecstacy. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 14:29, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, PalMD is not correct.  He says &amp;quot;despite [my] protestations&amp;quot;, but has said nothing to refute the linked article which explains why faith is what I said it is.  Instead, he has simply asserted without any evidence that I'm wrong.  He says that it is &amp;quot;defined&amp;quot; differently, but doesn't say where it is so defined.  I'll grant that ''one'' of the meanings of the word is probably the one that he uses, but it is also true that ''another'' meaning is the one I gave, and the real question in this is, which meaning are Christians using (as opposed to their detractors)?  Because they are quoting the Bible in support, they are using the meaning that the Bible uses, which is what the linked article was about.&lt;br /&gt;
::The problem with the non-overlapping magisteria idea is that they ''do'' overlap.  The Bible talks about things to do with astronomy, geology, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:46, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==What about the big contradiction?==&lt;br /&gt;
All of these pale beside the big contradiction&amp;amp;mdash;between the Old Testament and the New. This is usually phrased politely as saying that the New Testament &amp;quot;supersedes&amp;quot; the Old, but since the Old Testament in many places calls its laws perpetual, &amp;quot;supersedes&amp;quot; would seem to mean &amp;quot;contradicts.&amp;quot;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Thus:&lt;br /&gt;
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In religious matters, is all of the Old Testament the infallible word of God, and its laws valid for perpetuity?&lt;br /&gt;
:Old Testament: Yes. (E.g. Leviticus 3:17, &amp;quot;It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood...&amp;quot; and similar language in numerous other places).&lt;br /&gt;
:New Testament: No. Yes. Maybe. Parts. The NT says some parts of the OT are valid, some are not, but doesn't say precisely ''which.''&lt;br /&gt;
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There is no simple statement in the New Testament to the the effect that &amp;quot;the New Testament supersedes the Old.&amp;quot; This view seems to be an inference from passages in the New Testament which are elliptical: Luke 22:20, &amp;quot;This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you;&amp;quot; Matthew 5:38-48, &amp;quot;Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.... Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate.&amp;quot; Mark 2:27, &amp;quot;And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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So, is clear enough that according to the New Testament, with regard to religious matters not ''all'' of the Old Testament is to be considered the infallible word of God.  But nothing in the New Testament clearly catalogs ''which'' parts of the Old Testament have been superseded, leaving this to be a matter of interpretation&amp;amp;mdash;and the actual interpretation varies widely, depending on who is doing the interpretation. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 08:23, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Moreover, there is ''no'' commandment in the OT saying 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.' That is taken from the Essenes' ''Manual of Discipline'' - which, of course, opens up a whole new can of worms... --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Not being Christian, I can still appreciate the enormous beauty of the quote from Mark, but it does get confusing as to which of Leviticus's over 600 Commandments are still valid for Christians.--[[User:palmd001|PalMD]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:palmd001|talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 13:28, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::I always thought the New Testament was supposed to supersede/replace the Old Testament.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 22:35, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Depends on whom you believe. See the list:&lt;br /&gt;
:*Are the followers of Christ obliged to keep the whole of the Jewish Law (i.e. all 613 positive and negative provisions of it)?&lt;br /&gt;
:::Matthew 5:17-18 (Jesus): Yes&lt;br /&gt;
:::Romans 6:15 (Paul): No --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 05:24, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Way forward ==&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article is good, but needs a clear way forward.  First, I think the article should take a stand and argue it; namely, that the Bible is inerrant.  That will give focus to what otherwise is at risk of disintegrating.  Second, I think we should give so doctrinal statements about this.  Protestant confessional creeds have plenty, as do papal and conciliar decrees.  Likewise, one may find statements in the Church Fathers, especially Jerome.  Thus, the point that certain Christians believe in inerrancy can be suffiently explained.  Then the article could move to certain contradictions, though I think perhaps the best way is to list principles for interpretation and understanding the supposed contradictions, since it will not be possible for this article to take on every single accusation made by critics. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 09:53, 26 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Is_the_Bible_Inerrant%3F&amp;diff=177530</id>
		<title>Conservapedia:Is the Bible Inerrant?</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Is_the_Bible_Inerrant%3F&amp;diff=177530"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T13:48:46Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: add Catholic to list of those who believe in inerrancy&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Biblical fundamentalists, [[Biblical inerrancy|inerrantists]], ultra-orthodox Jews, Catholics, and [[Conservative Christianity|conservative]] [[Christians]] in general claim that the [[Bible]] is the infallible Word of [[God]], and therefore contains no contradictions. Critics generally reply that the Bible is full of contradictions, cannot consequently be the infallible Word of [[Yahweh|God]], and for this reason nowhere claims to be. (Given that both facts are simply general knowledge, neither needs specific referencing.) The following article is designed to test both assertions directly against what the Bible itself says. &lt;br /&gt;
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== Types of alleged contradictions ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Claims of contradictions in the Bible may fall into one of a number of common types.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Mismatched lists===&lt;br /&gt;
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Different authors might each list people, words, or events that do not correspond exactly.  However, in most cases, none of the authors claim that their lists are exhaustive, so items missing from one list that are on another list is not in itself a contradiction.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Omitted details===&lt;br /&gt;
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One author might mention details of an event that another author omits, with the sceptic claiming that if it really happened, both authors would have mentioned it.  This &amp;quot;argument from silence&amp;quot; is logically invalid, and usually ignores possible reasons for a given author not mentioning those details, particularly as each author generally had a particular purpose or audience in mind when writing.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Differing languages or reference points===&lt;br /&gt;
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One author might mention details using one language, clock, calendar, etc., while another might mention the same details using a different language, clock, calendar, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Genuine contradictions===&lt;br /&gt;
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One author might give details that flatly contradict another. Only careful examination of the texts (independently of personal preconceptions or conjecture) can decide whether or not this is the case.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Contradictions need to be proved ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Apologists might often disagree as to how an apparent contradiction is to be best explained, due to nobody knowing for sure what the correct explanation is - whether merely circumstantial or a case of genuine contradiction.  However, for a sceptic to ''prove'' the charge of contradiction, the onus is on him to eliminate all possible realistic explanations.  The onus is not on the apologist to know which possible explanation is correct.  By the same token, however, neither is it legitimate for the apologist to insist that any given explanation ''must'' be correct merely because it fits his or her preconceptions or has been argued by highly selective commentators with similar views. Indeed, the persistent citing of such commentators is liable to lead to an unresolvable 'battle of the commentators' that is likely to leave the general reader (who is in no position to judge the merits of the various commentators) just as nonplussed as before. True, the fact that there is a possible explanation means that the charge of contradiction may fail, depending on the inherent likelihood of the explanation. On the other hand, an unreasonably large number of not-very-likely or highly conjectural explanations may cast doubt on the apologist's case.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Examples of alleged contradictions ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The following is a list of the most frequently adduced contradictions, arranged (for clarity and concision) in brief question-and-answer form. Translations are from the KJV. ''The more usually advanced objections are appended in italics, and may be added to, as this article is not locked - though long semantic 'wriggles' may not redound to the entire credit of the poster's argument.''&lt;br /&gt;
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*How long did it take God to create the world?&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 1: Six days (Hebrew ''yom'')&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 2: One day (Hebrew ''yom'')&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection: The context indicates that the word ''yom'' in chapter 2 is used in the sense of &amp;quot;when&amp;quot;, as many translations have it.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: Linguistic studies do not support the use of &amp;quot;when&amp;quot; to translate ''yom''.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Was man created before or after the animals?&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 1:24-6: After the animals&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 2:7,19: Before the animals&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection 1: Unlike chapter 1, with its numbered days, chapter 2 is not intended as a chronological account.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: Since verse 7 comes well before verse 19, it is clear that man came before the animals.  Additionally, Gen 2:18 states specifically that the animals were created because God felt it was not right for man to be alone.&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection 2: At least one modern translation (NIV) replaces the word 'formed' with 'had formed', (showing that the animals had already been created). &lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: That is a clear mistranslation of the Hebrew verb, whose tense and mood is imperfect ('formed', 'was forming'), not pluperfect ('had formed').[http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Gen&amp;amp;chapter=2&amp;amp;verse=19&amp;amp;version=KJV#19]&lt;br /&gt;
:::::''Counter-counter objection: Some sources suggest - on the basis of seeing chapter 2 as ''not'' a contradiction of chapter 2, but as part of its context - that it is appropriate to treat the word as a pluperfect. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See [http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html|Creation Account, Times Two], by J. P. Holding&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;''&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Counter-counter-counter-objection: Which is, of course, an entirely circular argument, and in violation of Semitic linguistics!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*How long is a day as far as God is concerned, then?&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 1: An evening and morning&lt;br /&gt;
::II Peter 3:8: A thousand years&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is there only one God?&lt;br /&gt;
::Deuteronomy 6:4: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Deuteronomy 6:14: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Does God know the hearts of men?&lt;br /&gt;
::Psalm 139:2,3 Acts 1:24:  Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 22:12, Deuteronomy 8:2, 13:3: Evidently not&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*How many of each kind of living creature did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 6:19: One pair&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 7:2: Seven pairs of birds and ‘clean’ creatures, and one pair of the rest&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  It is common for the Bible writers to give an overview initially, and more detail later.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: Given that there are far more clean than unclean animals, it would seem that the predominant seven pairs would be given in an overview (absent, of course, the usage of any phrase meaning &amp;quot;at least two&amp;quot;).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Is God warlike?&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 15:3: Yes &lt;br /&gt;
::I Corinthians 14:33: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Is God's anger fierce and long-lasting?&lt;br /&gt;
::Jeremiah 17:4: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Psalm 30:5: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*On which mountain did Moses receive the Ten Commandments?&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 3: Horeb&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 19: Sinai&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection: They are both the same mountain.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: The Biblical text indicates that Horeb was the proper name of the mountain, and that the mountain was located in the Sinai desert.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Are we punished for our parents' sins?&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 20:5: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Ezekiel 18:20: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is it right to kill?&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 20:13: No&lt;br /&gt;
::I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8: Emphatically yes&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection: Traditionally, 'Thou shalt not kill' was simply taken to mean 'Thou shalt not kill ''Jews''.&lt;br /&gt;
::::Comment: The word should actually be 'murder', not kill.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Does God require burnt offerings and sacrifices?&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 29:36, 29:18, Leviticus 1:9: Yes &lt;br /&gt;
::Isaiah 1,11-14: No &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Did David have thirty companions, or thirty-seven?&lt;br /&gt;
::II Samuel 23:24: Thirty [all named and listed]&lt;br /&gt;
::II Samuel 23:39: Thirty-seven in all&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*How many stables did Solomon have for his horses?&lt;br /&gt;
::I Kings 4:26: Forty thousand&lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 9:25: Four thousand&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  This one is probably a copyist error.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.tektonics.org/af/copyisterrors.html Copyist Errors and Estimations], by J. P. Holding.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::::Non-objection: The Bible is thus not infallible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*How many overseers did Solomon have?&lt;br /&gt;
::I Kings 9:23: 550&lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 8:10: 250&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Did Michal have children?&lt;br /&gt;
::II Samuel 6:23: No &lt;br /&gt;
::II Samuel 21:8: Yes &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who was the mother of Abijah?&lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 11:20: Maachah the daughter of Absalom &lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 13:2: Michaiah the daughter of Uriel&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*At what age did Ahaziah come to the throne?&lt;br /&gt;
::II Kings 8:26: 22&lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 22:2: 42&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who succeeded King Josiah?&lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 36:1: Jehoahaz&lt;br /&gt;
::Jeremiah 22:11: Shallum&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*At what age did Jehoiachin come to the throne? &lt;br /&gt;
::II Kings 24:8: Eighteen &lt;br /&gt;
::II Chronicles 36:9: Eight&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Can God be seen?&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 32:30: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 33:11: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::John 1:18: No, not at any time&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is God is to be found by those who seek him?&lt;br /&gt;
::Proverbs 8:17: Yes &lt;br /&gt;
::Proverbs 1:28: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Should children be corrected with &amp;quot;the rod?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
::Proverbs 13:24, 23:13-14, 29:15: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Colossians 3:21: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is God mercfiul, or merciless?&lt;br /&gt;
::Jeremiah 13:14: Merciless&lt;br /&gt;
::I Samuel 15:13: Merciless&lt;br /&gt;
:: James 5:11: Very pitiful, and of tender mercy&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Does God tempt men, or not?&lt;br /&gt;
:Genesis 22:1: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
:James 1:13: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Can the Sun and Moon ever appear together in the sky at the same time&lt;br /&gt;
::Joshua 10:12: Yes.	 &lt;br /&gt;
::Psalm 136:8-9 No.	 &lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 1:16: No.	 &lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection: There is no contradiction: the last two references are to 'ruling', not 'appearing'.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Non-objection: The parallelism in the language means that the Moon plays the same role with respect to &amp;quot;night&amp;quot; as the Sun plays with respect to &amp;quot;day.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Should one answer a fool?&lt;br /&gt;
::Proverbs 26:4: No.&lt;br /&gt;
::Proverbs 26:5: Yes.&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection: Taken together, the two verses mean, 'It is unwise to argue with a fool at his own level and recognize his own foolish suppositions, but it is good sometimes to refute him soundly, lest his foolishness seem to be confirmed by your silence.'&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.tektonics.org/lp/proverbsfool.html I Pity the Fool I Answer], by J. P. Holding.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::::But the text [http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Pro&amp;amp;chapter=26&amp;amp;verse=4&amp;amp;version=KJV#4] does not actually say this.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is there an afterlife?&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke 16:22-23: Yes. &lt;br /&gt;
::Ecclesiastes 9:5: No. &lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection: Ecclesiastes is merely recounting Solomon's opinion; the closing words in 12:9-14 show that the purpose of the chapter is to portray Solomon as a wise leader, and that not everything in it is should necessarily be taken as true.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Non-objection: thus we see the value of allegory over inerrant literal truth. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Which of the two genealogies of Jesus is right – Matthew’s or Luke’s (both of them traced through the man who was supposedly not Jesus’ father in the first place)?&lt;br /&gt;
::Impossible to say: they are totally incompatible&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection 1: One of them is traced through Mary, his mother.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/2875/ The Virginal Conception of Christ], by Jonathan Sarfati.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: Both of them are specifically traced through Joseph, as the texts themselves make clear.''&lt;br /&gt;
:::::''Counter-counter-objection:  Restating the claim is not a counter-objection.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Counter-counter-counter-objection: The cited article states that the genealogy in Luke goes through Mary however it includes Joseph.&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection 2: One is traced through Joseph's father, the other through his step-father.&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: The text doesn't say so.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who was Joseph's father, then?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 1:16: Jacob&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke 3:23: Heli &lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  This is merely the previous objection restated.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who visited Jesus in his crib?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: Astrologers&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: Not mentioned (no birth story)&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke: Shepherds&lt;br /&gt;
::John: Not mentioned (no birth story)&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  Matthew does not say that the magi visited Jesus in the crib.  The &amp;quot;contradiction&amp;quot; is imaginary.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: The texts states 'where the young child was'.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Did Jesus tell his disciples to go out with or without a stick?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 10:10: Without a stick&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark 6:8: With a stick&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke 9:3: Without a stick&lt;br /&gt;
::John:	Not mentioned&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  In Matthew and Luke, Jesus is telling his disciples not to go and get a staff.  In Mark, Jesus is saying that they can take with them the staff that they already have. ''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.christian-thinktank.com/nostaff.html Good question... Well, did Jesus tell them to take a staff or not? Another contradiction?!], by Glenn Miller.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: The text does not say so.&lt;br /&gt;
	&lt;br /&gt;
*Where was the Sermon on the Mount delivered?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: On a hill&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark:	Not mentioned&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke:	At the bottom of a hill&lt;br /&gt;
::John: Not mentioned&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  Luke is usually translated as &amp;quot;on a level place&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;on a plain&amp;quot;.  He could therefore be referring to a level place on a hill.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: The text [http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk006.html#12] says 'He went out into a mountain [v.12]... ''came down'' [v.17]... and stood in the plain' [my italics].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Where in each gospel does Jesus make the all-important claim 'I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me'?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: Not mentioned&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: Not mentioned&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke: Not mentioned&lt;br /&gt;
::John: 14:6&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  How is this a contradiction if only one writer mentions it?''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: Evidently either Matthew, Mark and Luke had never heard of it, or else they didn't think it worth mentioning, so it can't have been 'all-important'.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Was Jesus a bringer of peace?&lt;br /&gt;
::John 14:27: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 10:34: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*At what time was Jesus crucified?&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark 15:25: At the third hour&lt;br /&gt;
::John 19:14-15: After the sixth hour&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who was present at the Crucifixion?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, the mother of the sons of Zebedee and other women&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, Salome and other women&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke: His friends, and the women who had accompanied him from Galilee&lt;br /&gt;
::John: His mother, her sister, Mary wife of Clopas and Mary of Magdala&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  Mentioning only some of the people present does not preclude others being present.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*What were Jesus’ last words on the cross?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: ‘My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?’ ''Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?''&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: ‘My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?’ ''Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?''&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke: ‘Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit.’&lt;br /&gt;
::John: ‘It is finished.’&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  In most cases, the writers do ''not'' indicate that the words they quote were the ''last'' words.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: But they are the last words that they report.  Additionally, both Matthew and Mark use Aramaic, which appears more likely to have been used, and which contains a pun on the names of God and Elias.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*How did Judas die?&lt;br /&gt;
::Acts 1:18: He fell down and burst asunder&lt;br /&gt;
::Matt. 27:5: He hanged himself&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  Neither account excludes the other.  He hanged himself, and his body fell down and burst asunder.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: Neither account suggests that ''both'' happened.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who was the first to reach the tomb on the Sunday morning?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: Mary of Magdala and ‘the other Mary’&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James, and Salome&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke:	Mary of Magdala, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James&lt;br /&gt;
::John:	Mary of Magdala&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  None of the authors claim to be listing everybody.  None say that the others were ''not'' there.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Whom did they find in the tomb?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: An angel&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark:	A youth&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke: Two men in dazzling garments&lt;br /&gt;
::John: Two angels&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  Mentioning one does not preclude there being two.  Otherwise, they could all be different descriptions of the same beings.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*What message did he/they deliver?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew: That Jesus was going on to Galilee, where they would see him&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: That Jesus was going on to Galilee, where they would see him&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke:	To remember what he had said&lt;br /&gt;
::John:	That he was now ascending to the Father&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*When did Jesus say he would return?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew:(a) After three days&lt;br /&gt;
:::(b) At some unspecifiable future time&lt;br /&gt;
::Mark: (a) After three days&lt;br /&gt;
:::(b) At some unspecifiable future time&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke:(a) After three days&lt;br /&gt;
:::(b) At some unspecifiable future time&lt;br /&gt;
::John: Unspecified&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Did those with Saul Paul at his conversion hear a voice?&lt;br /&gt;
::Acts 9:7: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Acts 22:9: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Who ever ascended into heaven?&lt;br /&gt;
::II Kings 2:11: Elijah&lt;br /&gt;
::John 3:13: Only the Son of Man&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Does God approve of observing the Sabbath, or not?&lt;br /&gt;
::Exodus 20:10: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Isaiah 1:13: No&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Objection:  &amp;quot;The reason why the Sabbath keeping and other observances of the Israelites were not acceptable to God, is set forth by Isaiah, in a subsequent verse, thus: 'Your hands are full of blood.'&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John W. Haley, ''Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible'', 1874.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::::Counter-objection: The answer seems to be 'Only by those with no blood on their hands', then. Hmm!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is God ominpresent and omniscient?&lt;br /&gt;
::Psalm 139:7-10,  Proverbs 15:3,  Job 34:22,21: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Genesis 18:20-21: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Does God change?&lt;br /&gt;
::Malachi 3:6: No &lt;br /&gt;
::James 1:17: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Are the followers of Christ obliged to keep the whole of the Jewish Law (i.e. all 613 positive and negative provisions of it)?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 5:17-18 (Jesus): Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Romans 6:15 (Paul): No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is salvation dependent on faith, or or on deeds?&lt;br /&gt;
::Romans 3:28: By faith without deeds&lt;br /&gt;
::James 2:24: By deeds, and not just by faith&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Should good deeds be done publicly?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 5:16: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::Matt 6:3-4: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is it permissible to call people names?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 5:22: No&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 23:17: Yes &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Should we swear oaths?&lt;br /&gt;
::Numbers 30:2: Yes &lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 5:34-37: No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Is the earth everlasting?&lt;br /&gt;
::Ecclesiastes 1:4: Yes&lt;br /&gt;
::II Peter 3:10 : No&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*When was Jesus supposed to return and the world end?&lt;br /&gt;
::Matthew 16:28: In the lifetime of Jesus' audience&lt;br /&gt;
::Luke 21:32-33: Before the generation of Jesus' audience passed away&lt;br /&gt;
::I Corinthians 15:51: Before all Paul's correspondents died&lt;br /&gt;
::Revelation 1:3, 22:7, 20: Soon after the Revelation was dictated/written.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Notes ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;&amp;lt;references /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Cruden, A., ''Complete Concordance to the Old and New Testaments'' (Lutterworth, 1930)&lt;br /&gt;
* Cupitt, D., ''The Sea of Faith'' (BBC, 1984)&lt;br /&gt;
* Dawkins, Prof. R., ''The God Delusion'' (Bantam, 2006)&lt;br /&gt;
* Finkelstein, I. &amp;amp; Silberman, N.I., ''The Bible Unearthed'' (Touchstone, 2002)&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The Holy Bible'' (King James Version)&lt;br /&gt;
* McKinnon, Prof. D.M, Williams, H., Vidler, Dean A.R. &amp;amp; Bezzant, Dean J.S., ''Objections to Christian Belief'' (Constable, 1963)&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The New English Bible'' (Oxford &amp;amp; Cambridge University Presses, 1970)&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The New Jerusalem Bible'' (Darton, Longman &amp;amp; Todd, 1990)&lt;br /&gt;
* Peake, A.S., ''Commentary on the Bible'' (Nelson, 1962)&lt;br /&gt;
* Robinson, Bishop J.A.T., ''Honest to God'' (SCM, 1963)&lt;br /&gt;
* Schonfield, Dr. H.J., ''The Passover Plot'' (Hutchinson, 1965)&lt;br /&gt;
* Schonfield, Dr. H.J., ''Those Incredible Christians'' (Geis/Bantam, 1968)&lt;br /&gt;
* Spong, Bishop J.S., ''Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism'' (HarperSanFrancisco, 1991) &lt;br /&gt;
* Young, R., ''Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible'' (Lutterworth, 1939)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Saint_Paul&amp;diff=177526</id>
		<title>Saint Paul</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Saint_Paul&amp;diff=177526"/>
		<updated>2007-05-26T13:43:44Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Last years */ Jesus was the founded of Christianity, not Paul - Paul himself was a follower of Jesus, ergo the statement is misleading / incomplete&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[Image:St. Paul.jpg|left]]&lt;br /&gt;
'''Saint Paul''' ''Apostle of the Gentiles'', was originally called Saul of [[Tarsus]]. Never having seen or met [[Jesus]] himself in the flesh, he was suddenly visited by Jesus while on his way to persecute his followers at Damascus. Paul saw a blinding white light and fell to the ground as Jesus talked to him asking Saul why he was persecuting him, then telling him to go into the city where he would be told what to do.  Saul got up, but when he opened his eyes, he found he was blind. Being led by the hand into the city by the men who were with him, for 3 days Saul could not see and would not eat or drink.  But a stranger named [[Ananias]] came to see him, a follower of Christ, having been led by God in a vision to where Saul was staying.  Placing his hands upon Saul as God told him to do, Saul was cured after something like scales fell from his eyes. Saul became baptized that very day. ([[Acts]] 9:1-19).  This incident is called the [[Road to Damascus]] experience.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He later claimed to have been &amp;quot;a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a [[Pharisee]]; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness which is in the [[Law]], found blameless.&amp;quot; (Philippians 3:5b-6) As such, he originally hated the Christians and took a lead in persecuting them:  specifically, he was &amp;quot;in hearty agreement&amp;quot; with the stoning of [[Stephen]]. After his conversion, however, the diminutive Saul adopted the name 'Paul' ('little one'), apparently in order to fulfil [[Isaiah]]'s prophecy at 11:6, 'And a little young man [''naar''] shall lead them'.  He then started a series of missionary journeys to the [[gentiles]]. These were dedicated mainly to spreading his own particular version of Jesus' message - one that freed gentiles from the necessity of observing the Jewish Law, reportedly much to the scandal of the official Church at Jerusalem.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''Feastday:''' June 29.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Apostle of the Gentiles ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Because the liberating effects of his message caused much unintended immorality and uncertainty among his gentile converts, many of whom promptly gave up their jobs and other commitments in expectation of the imminent [[End of the World]], Paul wrote many letters to his various 'churches' on a wide variety of subjects, including the essential [[kerygma]] or preaching thrust of what was to become [[Christianity]], and not least the subservience of [[women]] to Man. He was also a proponent of the idea of ''agape'', or universal, unconditional compassion, as referred to at 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. Thirteen of these letters were subsequently incorporated into the [[New Testament]]: Romans, [[1 Corinthians]], [[2 Corinthians]], [[Galatians]], [[Ephesians]], [[Philippians]], [[Colossians]], [[1 Thessalonians]], [[2 Thessalonians]], [[1 Timothy]], [[2 Timothy]], Titus and [[Philemon]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote style=&amp;quot;background: #F9F9F9; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: .3em;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''St. Paul reminded the Christians how they should live. They should think about the things in heaven (Colossians 3:2), because they belong with Christ (Colossians 3:3-4). They should not do evil deeds (Colossians 3:5-11). Instead, they should love other people (Colossians 3:12-14). And they should serve God (Colossians 3:15-17). If we invite Jesus into our lives, we will become friends of God (Colossians 1:15-23).''  &amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Last years ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Peter Paul.jpg|left|St. Peter and St. Paul]]&lt;br /&gt;
During the last years he visited Spain (Romans 15:24), Lycus, Laodicea, Collusus and Hierapolis. He also went to Crete, Ephesus and Macedonia. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Saint Paul was arrested (Acts 21:27- 28:31); he was accused of bringing Gentiles into the temple. Paul appealed to Caesar (his right as a citizen) and he was sent to Rome for a Roman trial. The Biblical account leaves off before the trial takes place. St. Paul was brought to Rome, but [[Nero]] was the Emperor and after the Rome fire where he blamed the Christians to deflect attention from himself, he was an ardent persecutor of the Christians, killing many.  St. Paul was [[martyr|martyred]] near Rome at the Aquae Silviae. St. Dionysios the Corinthian says that St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred at “about the same time.” It is believed that St. Paul died aged 68 having served the Lord for some 35 years. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://www.churchsaints.btinternet.co.uk/stpaul/stpaul.htm St. Paul] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
St. Paul was a profound religious thinker; he has had an important formative influence in the development of Christianity. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== See also ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Saint Peter]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Catholicism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[St.Paul Catholic Secondary School]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Twelve Apostles]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== External links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://satucket.com/lectionary/Peter&amp;amp;Paul.htm PETER AND PAUL] APOSTLES AND MARTYRS (29 JUN 64)&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.magnificat.ca/cal/engl/06-29.htm Apostles]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sources==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Cruden, A., ''Complete Concordance to the Old and New Testaments'' (Lutterworth, 1930)&lt;br /&gt;
* Cross, C., ''Who Was Jesus?'' (Hodder &amp;amp; Stoughton, 1970)&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The Holy Bible'' (King James Version)&lt;br /&gt;
* James, M. R., ''The Apocryphal New Testament'' (Clarendon, Oxford, 1953)&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The New English Bible'' (Oxford &amp;amp; Cambridge University Presses, 1970)&lt;br /&gt;
* ''The New Jerusalem Bible'' (Darton, Longman &amp;amp; Todd, 1990)&lt;br /&gt;
* Lemesurier, P., ''The Armageddon Script'' (Element Books, 1981)&lt;br /&gt;
* Peake, A.S., ''Commentary on the Bible'' (Nelson, 1962)&lt;br /&gt;
* Schonfield, H. J., ''The Passover Plot'' (Hutchinson, 1965)&lt;br /&gt;
* Schonfield, H. J., ''The Pentecost Revolution'' (Macdonald, 1974)&lt;br /&gt;
* Schonfield, H.J., ''Those Incredible Christians'' (Bernard Geis, New York, 1968)&lt;br /&gt;
* Vermes, G., ''Jesus the Jew'' (Collins, 1973)&lt;br /&gt;
* Young, R., ''Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible'' (Lutterworth, 1939)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Saints]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Biblical persons]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Martyrs]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=172736</id>
		<title>Talk:Jesus Christ</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=172736"/>
		<updated>2007-05-22T17:06:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Lead */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{protect}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Atheists denying existence of historical Jesus?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I seriously challenge this and would like to see some evidence for it. As the article correctly notes, the historical evidence for the life of Jesus of Nazareth is very good. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:08, 22 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
----&lt;br /&gt;
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The article still says &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously.&amp;quot; No source is cited. ''Who,'' exactly, denies the existence of an historical Jesus of Nazareth? If this belief is widely held someone, somewhere ought to have published something about it and the publication ought to be cited. &lt;br /&gt;
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There's no need to introduce this section with a straw man. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:24, 4 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Want confirmation of this? Go to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ#Historicity this section of Wikipedia's article on Jesus]. It's true that some people deny his existence. It's not a widely held belief; it's only held by a small, and I do emphasize ''small'', minority. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:17, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::If you think there is a small minority of people in the world that deny the existence of Jesus then you need to get out of the house a bit more.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::When using Wikipedia as confirmation of a fact, I try to follow the trail of cited sources. In this case, the trail leads to Wikipedia's article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Historicity of Jesus], thence to a footnote, which quotes the source as saying&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot; - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I don't think &amp;quot;Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted&amp;quot; supports the statement that &amp;quot;a small minority [of scholars] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure...&amp;quot; Neither of the Wikipedia articles names any scholars, or anyone else, who hold that Jesus of Nazareth was not a real figure in history.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I still will think it's a straw man unless someone produces some reasonably mainstream, reasonably modern examples of people challenging the historicity of Jesus. Wikipedia's neutrality policy says you can include &amp;quot;facts about opinions&amp;quot; when the opinions are ''reasonably'' widely held. I think the idea of there not being an historical Jesus of Nazareth is so rarely held that it is not worth mentioning. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:48, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I think you have serious defintional issues here that may alter whether or not this is at all a commonly held view. For example, do we mean that Jesus is a figure made up out of whole cloth? I don't think anyone seriously argues for that. Do we mean that he is a historical figure but many details of other preachers at the time got glommed onto his life-story? Many more would agree with this. Do we mean that Jesus is a compilation of the lives of a variety of people from that time period and one of their names happened to stick? I think you would get a lot for this last one. So when denying historicity you need to be very careful what you mean. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:15, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: OK. Originally I was commenting on the phrase &amp;quot;Many atheists claim that there is no evidence of Jesus outside the Bible.&amp;quot; That has since been softened to &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus.&amp;quot; I was, indeed, interpreting this to mean &amp;quot;invented in whole cloth.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: If the article were editable I'd propose simply excising the sentence &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; since I don't see that it adds anything to the section. Presumably a finished section would make it clear which details of the Gospel accounts are widely accepted by scholars as historical and which are debated. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:40, 11 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The evidence presented so far in the article is hardly compelling. It needs to be expanded, or the assertion that &amp;quot;few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; will need to be qualified. --[[User:John|John]] 22:52, 12 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Whether there are or are not people who question the historical existence of Jesus is not as important to this article as is the fact that there is no citation of where this claim comes from. Scorpionman, if you are suggesting I should go to Wikipedia to check the information, then what use does this Conservapedia article have in the first place? --[[User:GarbageMan|GarbageMan]] 10:14 5 April 2007 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even we Atheists and Jews do not deny the '''existence''' of Jesus, merely the idea that he was the son of God.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Locked ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can someone unlock this article? It needs more information. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:21, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Apparently... the key to unlocking this page is true faith.&lt;br /&gt;
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The very fact that this article is locked means I'm leaving this website and never returning again.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You Legend&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Some one needs to unlock this page if it is on the main page: Lets all improve these articles. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 09:17, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Josephus ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The line about Josephus is misleading and false.  No doubt you refer to the &amp;quot;Testimoniam Flavianum,&amp;quot; in which Josephus trumpets Jesus as the messiah for one paragraph, and then moves on.  It's worth noting that the TF is not believed by any serious scholars, and has been shown to be a forgery added by medieval monks... note that this does *NOT* undercut the importance of Jesus at all!  He was barely known in his time, and the fact that Josephus wouldn't write about him is unsurprising.  Josephus was known to be an anti-revolutionary who hated all the messianic figures of his time, and won his fame by being the lone Jew to decry them...&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Worth mentioning? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Excuse me, but do you think it's worth mentioning that Jesus was probably Jewish?  He merely provided the foundation of Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Jewish? ''Jewish''? He was the Son of God, for pete's sake (sorry, nearly used the other, rather more obvious expression)! Haven't you seen all those pictures of him with the fair hair and blue eyes? And so, with Joseph not being his father an' all, he can only have been ''half''-Jewish at best, can he? (pardon my irony!) So it's no wonder, is it, that, thanks largely to Paul, the poor Jews can't make head or tail of what Christians have managed to do with him  - let alone with ''their'' scriptures!--[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:55, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Wouldn't that be racist? --[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:02, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No. Just taking the p... out of racists! Irony. British thing. Don't worry your head about it! (''Of course'' the man was Jewish!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Matrilineal descent is what counts, I believe. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 13:00, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That's funny - I could have sworn that Matthew traces his descent through his father (or rather through the man who allegedly wasn't his father in the first place) while Luke does the same, but citing an incompatible number of generations and entirely different names! (pardon my irony again!) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:11, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The two theories are:&lt;br /&gt;
::1) St. Joseph was adopted, and one lineage is legal heritage&lt;br /&gt;
::2) One lineage is that of Our Lady, and the other of St. Joseph&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:13, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, you'd have thought they'd have said so, then, wouldn't you?  Especially as they both say it's through Joseph, and there are far more generations in the one than in the other! (Honestly, the squirming that goes on to try and justify Christian dogma in the face of what the scriptures actually say!) ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is this page locked?  I thought that perhaps one should add, after explaining that &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot; is the Greek form of the Hebrew name &amp;quot;Joshua,&amp;quot; that &amp;quot;Christ&amp;quot; comes from the Greek &amp;quot;christos,&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;the annointed one&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 18:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Absolutely. Or rather that ''christos'' is the Greek translation of Hebrew ''mashiach'', meaning 'anointed' and thus '[[Messiah]]' (and not, of course, Joshua's surname!!). Ironic, isn't it, that we know the two names mainly through the 'enemy' Greek culture that faithful Hebrews were most anxious to combat at the time? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 07:18, 14 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ the Redeemer?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
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Er...I find it a little bizarre to have a photo, and not a very good one of the Christ the Redeemer sculpture in Brazil as the only picture on this article.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''A NOTE TO THE ADMINS:''' Why are so many essential articles locked? If someone wanted to vandalise an article on Jesus they'd do it on Wikipedia where they'd get more airtime. This article is so woefully inadequate it's almost laughable. What about the teachings of Jesus, summarised? What about, oh, the prophets of the old testament foretelling his coming? What about the revelation of God's character through the old testament brought to fruition in Christ?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you want to lock these articles, fine, I don't care. But make sure they're up to scratch before you do so. Otherwise you'll just drive people away like our friend earlier. [[User:Dallas|Dallas]] 07:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Help for this article is on the way, so be patient!  :) [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:56, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==The name Jesus==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I came across some interesting information, which I've summarised here. If anybody who can edit this page would like to put it in, others might also find it interesting.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Considering that Christianity is 2000 years old, the name Jesus for Jesus Christ is not a very old word in English. In Old English he was called hæland “saviour”, from the Proto-Germanic root hailjan “to heal, to save”. &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
After the Norman conquest, the French form Iesu  or Iesus was adopted. This derived from Latin Iosus, which the Romans adopted from the Greek Iesous.  The Greeks derived the name from the late Hebrew or Aramaic name Yoshua, today’s version of which is “Joshua”.  The earlier Aramaic form was Jehoshua (Y’hoshua) or Joshua., deriving from Hebrew Jah, short for Jahweh, and  Aramaic y’shuoh meaning “salvation”. The name thus meant “Jah is salvation”.  Both Joshua and Jehoshua were common names in the time of Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 16th century written English both Iesu and Iesus were used, for example in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1526. J did not replace I until the 17th century and the form with the final s became common in the 18th century.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In Middle English documents, Jesus was often written IHS, an abbreviation of Greek IHSOYS (Iesous).  However, in spoken English between the 11th and 17th centuries, the letter I could sound like either an I or a J, so the pronunciation of Iesus was similar to today’s sound.  Welsh still retains the Iesu form but pronounces it “yessy”. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.takeourword.com/Issue068.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 3.51 24 March 2007&lt;br /&gt;
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:''Very'' interesting, but, alas, factual - so it doesn't have much chance of being included here! --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:19, 25 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Birth of Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just curious, especially considering how big a deal the A.D./C.E. thing is here, but why is there no mention of Christs Birthdate?  Would think its sort of important given how much attention you've been heeding it.  Best Scholarly guess seems to be late September in 05 B.C., which is odd I think, since that not only would grammatically read as him being born five years before he was born (a lesser miracle?) but also would imply that A.D. and C.E. are equally, inaccurately, based on the date of Christ's birth, with only A.D. claiming as much, and incorrectly at that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Case for Christ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am reinserting the reference to ''Case for Christ''. It is not a &amp;quot;book review&amp;quot; to mention the book in one or two sentences. In fact, I think Conservapedia should serve as a jumping off point to further research on subjects, and that book is in itself a jumping off point to further research. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 01:11, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Name of page==&lt;br /&gt;
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This ought to be Jesus Christ, not just Jesus. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 03:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well from what I understand Christ is a [[Messiah|title]] not part of a name. It would be like renaming the George W. Bush article to President George W. Bush. If you're worried about someone typing in Jesus Christ and not able to get to the article that's not happening as Jesus Christ redirects to Jesus. [[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 03:33, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Sulgran, it is a highly secular idea of what it means.  His name is '''Jesus Christ''' to hundreds of millions of people throughout the World.  I don't think some online encyclopedia has a right to truncate his name. As Christians, we hold to these basic tenets: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Our Core Values&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
#'''1.        We praise Jesus Christ as Lord and savior always'''.&lt;br /&gt;
#2.        Help others in their time of need, the lost, hungry and weak.&lt;br /&gt;
#3.        Spread the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven.&lt;br /&gt;
#4.        Love God the Father with all of our hearts, mind, body, and soul. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt; --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:18, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::5.        5. And ignore all the other 600-odd commandments, apart from:&lt;br /&gt;
::6.        6. Be insufferably smug at all times. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In that case, we should refer to 'King David Christ', too, since he called himself that (in the Hebrew, ''mashiach'') throughout the Psalms. But it wasn't his name, any more than it was Jesus's. The word is a ''Greek translation'', of all things! (But then, to be fair, so is 'Jesus'!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:29, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Indeed.  Christ is an honorific, not a name.  In fact, his name was actually Yeshua[[User:Daemon|Daemon]] 12:28, 14 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*Well, we are not for everyone. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a sysop, I decided that readers looking for information on [[Jesus]] would be better served if they found it in [[Jesus Christ]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:06, 17 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:08, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It looks like it has been locked again.  There are a few ignorant spelling errors I would like to correct. [[User:MontyZuma|MontyZuma]] 19:09, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Simple Logic?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't see how this phrase:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Why would Jesus voluntarily submit to a crucifixion unless it was to be followed by a resurrection?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
is an example of simple logic. There could be any number of reasons why he would submit to his execution. I don't think even Christian's think he only did it to prove that he would be resurrected. He submitted to be executed simply because it would wash away the sins of man. This statement should be removed. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 12:58, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Surely Jesus while on Earth was a man born of woman and both feared and felt pain as a man would. Saying he went willingly because he knew he would rise again surely cheapens the sacrifice he made for us. He gave his life willingly and with great suffering for us without knowing what would become of him and, in this, made the most selfless sacrifice in all of history.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not a theologian but I would like to see a scholar of the Bible (as supposed to a simple follower like me) look at what I've suggested and see if the Bible supports this. I always believed that the human aspect of him made the sacrifice all the greater (and the sadder as such a great man died to such mockery and in such pain). --[[User:Trashbat|Trashbat]] 19:17, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This statement was put in again (although under a different guise). I removed it as it is neither logic, or the reason Jesus was crucified. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:35, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== The top picture should be on the right more so the top text can be on the left ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The top picture should be on the right more so the text can be on the left. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:16, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Nevermind i fixed it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:17, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*LOL...its okay for the pic to be on the left, as it was originally. ;-) --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 19:27, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::TK, i certainly don't want to get into a edit war over something trivial.  But people do read from left to right and at first I missed the upper text.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:39, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How can there be an edit war if you're the only person editing? [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 20:16, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Unprotection ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Glad to see you unprotected the article for the &amp;quot;Article improvement drive&amp;quot;.  I would make some edits but need to hit the sack. [[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 19:00, 10 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Other people in the Bible name Jesus ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While this is interesting, it's not appropriate for an article on Jesus Christ, which itself can get rather long.  I did include a brief acknowledgement of Joshua and Messiah in the opening paragraph so your additions in regard to Jesus Christ are not lost. I hope this makes sense to you. Thanks  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:26, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Lead ==&lt;br /&gt;
I wrote a new lead.  I hope its not to bold, but I wanted to get the point about just who Jesus is right upfront.  [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 20:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:While I am a Christian, I'm still thinking perhaps we should start with the words &amp;quot;In Christian theology&amp;quot;, before your new lead.  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:34, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*Learn together, please don't fall for the realitivists here.  This is a Christian, Conservative encyclopedia.  Ignore those wanting neutral statements, okay?  --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 06:23, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Can you objectively, empirically demonstrate the claim that Christ was born of a virgin, was the incarnation of God and, through dying, absolved the sins of his believers past, present and future?  Its perfectly fine to believe this, sure, but to claim it as outright fact is wrong, and not simply because the only source for these grand claims is the Bible (a book which contains within it numerous self-contradictory and inaccurate passages, but thats another discussion) but also that to attempt to pin him down as a concrete character defies the various interpretations which have lead to the factioning of the church based on different eschatologies.  Different christian religions all see christ in different lights.  Some believe he was a miracle worker, some a philosopher/teacher, some see him as a pure man of God and some as God himself.  &lt;br /&gt;
:Don't get me wrong, TK, I'm fully in favor of an un-neutral encyclopedia that promotes a specific &amp;quot;Christian, Conservative&amp;quot; narrative by selectively cherrypicking evidence and ignoring context to suggest as fact things that are not necessarily the case, and certainly the article can stay such as it is, offending the intellectual sensibilities of people like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin who saw truth in Christ's teachings but had &amp;quot;doubts as to his divinity,&amp;quot; by committing the intellectual dishonesty of stating these things as outright fact which only cite one text as the source for these extraordinary claims.  &lt;br /&gt;
:I just think though that if beliefs are going to be stated as fact that CPedia needs to come out front and decide which particular kind of christianity its going to promote as singularly true.  Which particular protestant reformations will CPedia then be in a position to declare as false?  Which Catholic sects?  Methodism?  Lutheranism?  Mormonism?  Making an &amp;quot;un-neutral&amp;quot; statement does get that snowball rolling after all, and if you've decided, TK, that neutrality is a bad thing, then riddle me this:  Which conservapedia contributors... no... which CPedia Sysops will have the fun to find that the CPedia says their particular belief in Christ is outright wrong?  I would really like to know.  You all going to vote on which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; are you?  I mean clearly here &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; is decided by the ideaology of the sysops as a group, and its not very likely that you all go to the exact same church, so who is it, specifically, who gets to have their Christian faith called false here?  Inquiring minds want to know.&lt;br /&gt;
:--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 12:27, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I think you got off on a tangent there.  The majority of practicing Christians would have no trouble with the portrayal of Jesus put forth by Lostcaesar; there's no need to identify every variant and condition to the point where gridlock trumps common sense.  And saying only one text is cited for Jesus is like taking all of the works of ancient Greece and putting them in one volume, then saying there's only one source that discusses ancient Greece. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:24, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I apologize if I was unclear.  I realize that there is archeological evidence that Jesus existed, but the problem isn't whether he lived or not.  Its his divinity.  The only source for such a claim is a selection of specific accounts of his life (others who witnessed him do not mention miracles, as an example) of which there is no supporting evidence.  The only you can say about his divinity, therefore, is that the bible claims it to be so and that people believe it.  Stating it as manifest fact simply because the majority agrees would be like, if the majority were also Star Trek fans, saying that Capt. James T Kirk is a real person.  Facts are not democratic and demand quantification.&lt;br /&gt;
:My other problem with &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; being used to argue the stament of beliefs as fact in this sense is that you admit there are a minority of Christians (myself among them) who do not necessarily believe in the divinity of Christ.  Say then that another section goes up in the article about how He should be worshipped then.  Do you populate that section with the majority religion at the expense of the others?  Say Catholicism over Protestantism?  Then that majority further divides over reformations and yields another majority, which then divides over another issue and then another, and before long you have Russian Nesting dolls, each being a majority, until the &amp;quot;minorities&amp;quot; put together outnumber the &amp;quot;majorities&amp;quot; 10 to 1.  &lt;br /&gt;
:When you allow lapsed standards for statements of fact such as this merely on the basis of it being the opinion of the majority, you get exactly that situation in the long run.  I notice, of course, that if a liberal were to make a similar unverifiable, intellectually dishonest claim on this site, he'd be hunted down with dogs.  For consistancy's sake, for legitimacy's sake, and not least of all for Christ's sake, the only thing that should be said as fact about Christ's divinity is that the bible claims it to be so.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 11:38, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::''Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.  Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: &amp;quot;Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.&amp;quot; ...The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, &amp;quot;Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.&amp;quot;'' (John 19:18-19, 21)&lt;br /&gt;
::What will we write?  &amp;quot;Jesus is the Son of God&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;some claim he said that he was the Son of God.&amp;quot; ? [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 12:40, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I think the best and simplest thing to say is some variant of &amp;quot;According to the Bible, Jesus was the son of god, born of a virgin, etc.&amp;quot; since I agree the bible is the most pivotal reference for alot of the history attributed to him.  The important thing to realize is that, and I dont mean this to be as condescenting as it might sound, but Jesus here is basically a character in a book, and as such since the only real source for the bulk of the extraordinary claims is that same book, the very simple quantifier &amp;quot;According to the bible...&amp;quot; used sparingly just to establish that context would, I think, be the best course of action.  Fair?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 13:41, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry to follow you here, RexMundane, I'll cease with this observation.  I generally agree with your modest tone here, and do not take offense.  I would like to add one clarification, though.  While the Bible is most often published in a single book, it is actually a collection of books (or scrolls), letters, etc.  The phrasing &amp;quot;According to the Bible...&amp;quot; seems to ickypedian to me.  This is a conservative encyclopedia.  I am not sure we need to cite the source of the statement in line, but perhaps we do.  I don't think conservapedia is about doubting the historocity of Jesus.  Am I wrong?  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 15:57, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Well the claim of Jesus's divinity though is entirely based on the aggregate statements made by the bible.  I agree that there was a Jesus, that significant events in the story of his life, as recanted in the bible, have been verified by archeological record, and it is entirely honest to say as much.  Claiming he was born of a virgin, is the son of God, etc., however rather demands a quantifier since it is, and I say this recognizing this as a &amp;quot;christian&amp;quot; cyclopedia, only a claim being made by one source (I am here refering to the selection of texts in the bible as a single group) and significant as that source is to discussing the nature of Jesus, I maintain that it is wrong to say these things as objective fact when, outside of the claims made by that one source, there is no other empirical proof to say that, for instance, the ressurection was a real event.  If the event exists, basically, only as an event in the story the Bible tells, that should be made explicit.  &lt;br /&gt;
:As I say, I consider myself a christian in a sort of Thomas Jefferson sense, and don't require him to have been supernatural or even for the bible to have been accurate in order to be able to glean moral lessons from the story of his life.  I realize that my opinion is not as important as the bible's in this regard, certainly as far as conveying the story of Christ, but the important thing is that the story is, basically, the bible's version.  An important version to be sure, but it does a disservice to not make that clear, I rather think.  Given too how I don't actually see how saying something like &amp;quot;The Bible says Jesus was X&amp;quot; instead of simply &amp;quot;Jesus was X&amp;quot; in any way changes a persons interpretation of Christ or his story in any significant way.  I'm not saying to call it a lie, just to acknowledge that the primary basis for the claims is the bible itself.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 17:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Jesus' divinity is known by revelation, making it a fact that we can be certain about.  If you wish to talk about sources, a section would be appropriate, where we can talk about the witness of the Bible, the Church Fathers, and any of the many miracles wrought in his name in the two thousand years since his resurrection.  But, just as we would not qualify every statement about Julius Caesar being emperor of Rome, we should not qualify what we say about the Son of God. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 19:42, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The distinction is that Ceaser being the emperor of rome is not disputed by anyone, whereas the nature of the divinity of Christ, even among Christians, is under dispute.  &amp;quot;Jesus' divinity is known by revelation,&amp;quot; only to those who know it, not to everyone.  Among even people who believe in the truth of his teachings there are legitimate arguments as to whether or not the account of the bible regarding the virgin birth, miracles, etc., is true, or even necessary.  All I'm asking for is that such statements of divinity which historians and christians themselves have disagreements on simply be clarified as being the bible's account.  Saying its not necessary simply because the majority of christians believe in it sends us down the rabbit hole of deciding which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; by majority as well.  I'm sorry, please help me here, why is there such opposition to simply adding the phrase &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; once or twice?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 10:23, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I agree with Rex.  Stating that Jesus *is* the Son of God unequivocally leaves Conservapedia in the position of endorsing Christianity as objectively true, when in fact this isn't verifiable, and the majority of people on earth are not Christian.  A statement saying &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;According to the Christian faith&amp;quot; as a preface would make this more objective. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 13:11, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::1) This is a Christian encyclopedia.  2) While you may not think it is 'verifiable', others are not obliged to agree with this conclusion or approach.  3) Truth is not determined by mere popular whimsy, ergo the number of Christians is not directly relevant, though the position of the faith as the plurality, or near plurality position amongst different religions ought to give cause to reevaluate your position, even if you continue with the assumption that sheer number is directly relevant. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 16:34, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::1) No, it isn't a Christian encyclopedia; it's a conservative encyclopedia QED.  Not all conservatives are Christians, and even if they were it wouldn't make the question of Christ's divinity any more or less objectively verifiable.  2) It isn't just me that believes that the question of Christ's divinity is unverifiable.  Such a question is one of faith, not of science, and as such is purely subjective.  You may personally believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior, and noone is suggesting that you should believe otherwise, but you should recognize that this position can't be objectively proven.  3) I'm not making an argumentum ad populum, I'm simply pointing out that Conservapedia should not be in the business of claiming that one religion is true over all others, and it's sheer hubris to do otherwise.  [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 11:39, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You sound as if you consider your statement (2) to be &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot;, since you give no argument for it other than to repeat the assertion.  Whatever the case, what is &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot; is that the frontpage contains a Daily Bible Verse.  Please example this [http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070306/26179_Conservapedia_Challenges_%27Anti-Christian%27_Wiki.htm useful text]. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 13:06, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=172735</id>
		<title>Talk:Jesus Christ</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Jesus_Christ&amp;diff=172735"/>
		<updated>2007-05-22T17:06:17Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Lead */&lt;/p&gt;
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==Atheists denying existence of historical Jesus?==&lt;br /&gt;
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I seriously challenge this and would like to see some evidence for it. As the article correctly notes, the historical evidence for the life of Jesus of Nazareth is very good. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 06:08, 22 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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The article still says &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously.&amp;quot; No source is cited. ''Who,'' exactly, denies the existence of an historical Jesus of Nazareth? If this belief is widely held someone, somewhere ought to have published something about it and the publication ought to be cited. &lt;br /&gt;
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There's no need to introduce this section with a straw man. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 21:24, 4 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Want confirmation of this? Go to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ#Historicity this section of Wikipedia's article on Jesus]. It's true that some people deny his existence. It's not a widely held belief; it's only held by a small, and I do emphasize ''small'', minority. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:17, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::If you think there is a small minority of people in the world that deny the existence of Jesus then you need to get out of the house a bit more.&lt;br /&gt;
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::When using Wikipedia as confirmation of a fact, I try to follow the trail of cited sources. In this case, the trail leads to Wikipedia's article on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Historicity of Jesus], thence to a footnote, which quotes the source as saying&lt;br /&gt;
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:::The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot; - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I don't think &amp;quot;Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted&amp;quot; supports the statement that &amp;quot;a small minority [of scholars] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure...&amp;quot; Neither of the Wikipedia articles names any scholars, or anyone else, who hold that Jesus of Nazareth was not a real figure in history.&lt;br /&gt;
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::I still will think it's a straw man unless someone produces some reasonably mainstream, reasonably modern examples of people challenging the historicity of Jesus. Wikipedia's neutrality policy says you can include &amp;quot;facts about opinions&amp;quot; when the opinions are ''reasonably'' widely held. I think the idea of there not being an historical Jesus of Nazareth is so rarely held that it is not worth mentioning. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 11:48, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::: I think you have serious defintional issues here that may alter whether or not this is at all a commonly held view. For example, do we mean that Jesus is a figure made up out of whole cloth? I don't think anyone seriously argues for that. Do we mean that he is a historical figure but many details of other preachers at the time got glommed onto his life-story? Many more would agree with this. Do we mean that Jesus is a compilation of the lives of a variety of people from that time period and one of their names happened to stick? I think you would get a lot for this last one. So when denying historicity you need to be very careful what you mean. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:15, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: OK. Originally I was commenting on the phrase &amp;quot;Many atheists claim that there is no evidence of Jesus outside the Bible.&amp;quot; That has since been softened to &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus.&amp;quot; I was, indeed, interpreting this to mean &amp;quot;invented in whole cloth.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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:::: If the article were editable I'd propose simply excising the sentence &amp;quot;Occasionally someone denies the existence of Jesus, but few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; since I don't see that it adds anything to the section. Presumably a finished section would make it clear which details of the Gospel accounts are widely accepted by scholars as historical and which are debated. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:40, 11 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::::The evidence presented so far in the article is hardly compelling. It needs to be expanded, or the assertion that &amp;quot;few scholars take this seriously&amp;quot; will need to be qualified. --[[User:John|John]] 22:52, 12 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Whether there are or are not people who question the historical existence of Jesus is not as important to this article as is the fact that there is no citation of where this claim comes from. Scorpionman, if you are suggesting I should go to Wikipedia to check the information, then what use does this Conservapedia article have in the first place? --[[User:GarbageMan|GarbageMan]] 10:14 5 April 2007 (CST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Even we Atheists and Jews do not deny the '''existence''' of Jesus, merely the idea that he was the son of God.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Locked ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Can someone unlock this article? It needs more information. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 11:21, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Apparently... the key to unlocking this page is true faith.&lt;br /&gt;
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The very fact that this article is locked means I'm leaving this website and never returning again.&lt;br /&gt;
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::You Legend&lt;br /&gt;
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:::Some one needs to unlock this page if it is on the main page: Lets all improve these articles. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 09:17, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Josephus ==&lt;br /&gt;
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The line about Josephus is misleading and false.  No doubt you refer to the &amp;quot;Testimoniam Flavianum,&amp;quot; in which Josephus trumpets Jesus as the messiah for one paragraph, and then moves on.  It's worth noting that the TF is not believed by any serious scholars, and has been shown to be a forgery added by medieval monks... note that this does *NOT* undercut the importance of Jesus at all!  He was barely known in his time, and the fact that Josephus wouldn't write about him is unsurprising.  Josephus was known to be an anti-revolutionary who hated all the messianic figures of his time, and won his fame by being the lone Jew to decry them...&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Worth mentioning? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Excuse me, but do you think it's worth mentioning that Jesus was probably Jewish?  He merely provided the foundation of Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;
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: Jewish? ''Jewish''? He was the Son of God, for pete's sake (sorry, nearly used the other, rather more obvious expression)! Haven't you seen all those pictures of him with the fair hair and blue eyes? And so, with Joseph not being his father an' all, he can only have been ''half''-Jewish at best, can he? (pardon my irony!) So it's no wonder, is it, that, thanks largely to Paul, the poor Jews can't make head or tail of what Christians have managed to do with him  - let alone with ''their'' scriptures!--[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:55, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Wouldn't that be racist? --[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:02, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:No. Just taking the p... out of racists! Irony. British thing. Don't worry your head about it! (''Of course'' the man was Jewish!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Matrilineal descent is what counts, I believe. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 13:00, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:That's funny - I could have sworn that Matthew traces his descent through his father (or rather through the man who allegedly wasn't his father in the first place) while Luke does the same, but citing an incompatible number of generations and entirely different names! (pardon my irony again!) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:11, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The two theories are:&lt;br /&gt;
::1) St. Joseph was adopted, and one lineage is legal heritage&lt;br /&gt;
::2) One lineage is that of Our Lady, and the other of St. Joseph&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:Luke-Jr|Luke-Jr]] 13:13, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well, you'd have thought they'd have said so, then, wouldn't you?  Especially as they both say it's through Joseph, and there are far more generations in the one than in the other! (Honestly, the squirming that goes on to try and justify Christian dogma in the face of what the scriptures actually say!) ;) --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 13:44, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==References==&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Is this page locked?  I thought that perhaps one should add, after explaining that &amp;quot;Jesus&amp;quot; is the Greek form of the Hebrew name &amp;quot;Joshua,&amp;quot; that &amp;quot;Christ&amp;quot; comes from the Greek &amp;quot;christos,&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;the annointed one&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Boethius|Boethius]] 18:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Absolutely. Or rather that ''christos'' is the Greek translation of Hebrew ''mashiach'', meaning 'anointed' and thus '[[Messiah]]' (and not, of course, Joshua's surname!!). Ironic, isn't it, that we know the two names mainly through the 'enemy' Greek culture that faithful Hebrews were most anxious to combat at the time? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 07:18, 14 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Christ the Redeemer?? ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Er...I find it a little bizarre to have a photo, and not a very good one of the Christ the Redeemer sculpture in Brazil as the only picture on this article.&lt;br /&gt;
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'''A NOTE TO THE ADMINS:''' Why are so many essential articles locked? If someone wanted to vandalise an article on Jesus they'd do it on Wikipedia where they'd get more airtime. This article is so woefully inadequate it's almost laughable. What about the teachings of Jesus, summarised? What about, oh, the prophets of the old testament foretelling his coming? What about the revelation of God's character through the old testament brought to fruition in Christ?&lt;br /&gt;
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If you want to lock these articles, fine, I don't care. But make sure they're up to scratch before you do so. Otherwise you'll just drive people away like our friend earlier. [[User:Dallas|Dallas]] 07:54, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Help for this article is on the way, so be patient!  :) [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:56, 16 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==The name Jesus==&lt;br /&gt;
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I came across some interesting information, which I've summarised here. If anybody who can edit this page would like to put it in, others might also find it interesting.&lt;br /&gt;
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Considering that Christianity is 2000 years old, the name Jesus for Jesus Christ is not a very old word in English. In Old English he was called hæland “saviour”, from the Proto-Germanic root hailjan “to heal, to save”. &lt;br /&gt;
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After the Norman conquest, the French form Iesu  or Iesus was adopted. This derived from Latin Iosus, which the Romans adopted from the Greek Iesous.  The Greeks derived the name from the late Hebrew or Aramaic name Yoshua, today’s version of which is “Joshua”.  The earlier Aramaic form was Jehoshua (Y’hoshua) or Joshua., deriving from Hebrew Jah, short for Jahweh, and  Aramaic y’shuoh meaning “salvation”. The name thus meant “Jah is salvation”.  Both Joshua and Jehoshua were common names in the time of Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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In 16th century written English both Iesu and Iesus were used, for example in Tyndale’s New Testament of 1526. J did not replace I until the 17th century and the form with the final s became common in the 18th century.  &lt;br /&gt;
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In Middle English documents, Jesus was often written IHS, an abbreviation of Greek IHSOYS (Iesous).  However, in spoken English between the 11th and 17th centuries, the letter I could sound like either an I or a J, so the pronunciation of Iesus was similar to today’s sound.  Welsh still retains the Iesu form but pronounces it “yessy”. &lt;br /&gt;
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http://www.takeourword.com/Issue068.html&lt;br /&gt;
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[[User:Britinme|Britinme]] 3.51 24 March 2007&lt;br /&gt;
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:''Very'' interesting, but, alas, factual - so it doesn't have much chance of being included here! --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 11:19, 25 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Birth of Christ ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Just curious, especially considering how big a deal the A.D./C.E. thing is here, but why is there no mention of Christs Birthdate?  Would think its sort of important given how much attention you've been heeding it.  Best Scholarly guess seems to be late September in 05 B.C., which is odd I think, since that not only would grammatically read as him being born five years before he was born (a lesser miracle?) but also would imply that A.D. and C.E. are equally, inaccurately, based on the date of Christ's birth, with only A.D. claiming as much, and incorrectly at that.&lt;br /&gt;
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==Case for Christ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am reinserting the reference to ''Case for Christ''. It is not a &amp;quot;book review&amp;quot; to mention the book in one or two sentences. In fact, I think Conservapedia should serve as a jumping off point to further research on subjects, and that book is in itself a jumping off point to further research. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 01:11, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Name of page==&lt;br /&gt;
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This ought to be Jesus Christ, not just Jesus. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 03:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Well from what I understand Christ is a [[Messiah|title]] not part of a name. It would be like renaming the George W. Bush article to President George W. Bush. If you're worried about someone typing in Jesus Christ and not able to get to the article that's not happening as Jesus Christ redirects to Jesus. [[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 03:33, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Sulgran, it is a highly secular idea of what it means.  His name is '''Jesus Christ''' to hundreds of millions of people throughout the World.  I don't think some online encyclopedia has a right to truncate his name. As Christians, we hold to these basic tenets: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Our Core Values&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
#'''1.        We praise Jesus Christ as Lord and savior always'''.&lt;br /&gt;
#2.        Help others in their time of need, the lost, hungry and weak.&lt;br /&gt;
#3.        Spread the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven.&lt;br /&gt;
#4.        Love God the Father with all of our hearts, mind, body, and soul. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt; --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:18, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::5.        5. And ignore all the other 600-odd commandments, apart from:&lt;br /&gt;
::6.        6. Be insufferably smug at all times. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:In that case, we should refer to 'King David Christ', too, since he called himself that (in the Hebrew, ''mashiach'') throughout the Psalms. But it wasn't his name, any more than it was Jesus's. The word is a ''Greek translation'', of all things! (But then, to be fair, so is 'Jesus'!). --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:29, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Indeed.  Christ is an honorific, not a name.  In fact, his name was actually Yeshua[[User:Daemon|Daemon]] 12:28, 14 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:*Well, we are not for everyone. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As a sysop, I decided that readers looking for information on [[Jesus]] would be better served if they found it in [[Jesus Christ]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:06, 17 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals ==&lt;br /&gt;
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Due to article improvement drive I am unprotecting this article.  Please watch for vandals. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:08, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:It looks like it has been locked again.  There are a few ignorant spelling errors I would like to correct. [[User:MontyZuma|MontyZuma]] 19:09, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Simple Logic?==&lt;br /&gt;
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I don't see how this phrase:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Why would Jesus voluntarily submit to a crucifixion unless it was to be followed by a resurrection?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
is an example of simple logic. There could be any number of reasons why he would submit to his execution. I don't think even Christian's think he only did it to prove that he would be resurrected. He submitted to be executed simply because it would wash away the sins of man. This statement should be removed. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 12:58, 29 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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Surely Jesus while on Earth was a man born of woman and both feared and felt pain as a man would. Saying he went willingly because he knew he would rise again surely cheapens the sacrifice he made for us. He gave his life willingly and with great suffering for us without knowing what would become of him and, in this, made the most selfless sacrifice in all of history.&lt;br /&gt;
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I am not a theologian but I would like to see a scholar of the Bible (as supposed to a simple follower like me) look at what I've suggested and see if the Bible supports this. I always believed that the human aspect of him made the sacrifice all the greater (and the sadder as such a great man died to such mockery and in such pain). --[[User:Trashbat|Trashbat]] 19:17, 2 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:This statement was put in again (although under a different guise). I removed it as it is neither logic, or the reason Jesus was crucified. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:35, 11 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== The top picture should be on the right more so the top text can be on the left ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The top picture should be on the right more so the text can be on the left. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:16, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Nevermind i fixed it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:17, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*LOL...its okay for the pic to be on the left, as it was originally. ;-) --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 19:27, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::TK, i certainly don't want to get into a edit war over something trivial.  But people do read from left to right and at first I missed the upper text.  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 19:39, 1 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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How can there be an edit war if you're the only person editing? [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 20:16, 3 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Unprotection ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Glad to see you unprotected the article for the &amp;quot;Article improvement drive&amp;quot;.  I would make some edits but need to hit the sack. [[User:Ian St John|Ian St John]] 19:00, 10 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Other people in the Bible name Jesus ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While this is interesting, it's not appropriate for an article on Jesus Christ, which itself can get rather long.  I did include a brief acknowledgement of Joshua and Messiah in the opening paragraph so your additions in regard to Jesus Christ are not lost. I hope this makes sense to you. Thanks  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:26, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Lead ==&lt;br /&gt;
I wrote a new lead.  I hope its not to bold, but I wanted to get the point about just who Jesus is right upfront.  [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 20:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:While I am a Christian, I'm still thinking perhaps we should start with the words &amp;quot;In Christian theology&amp;quot;, before your new lead.  [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:34, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Learn together, please don't fall for the realitivists here.  This is a Christian, Conservative encyclopedia.  Ignore those wanting neutral statements, okay?  --[[User:TK|&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;Sysop-&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;TK]] &amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt; 06:23, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Can you objectively, empirically demonstrate the claim that Christ was born of a virgin, was the incarnation of God and, through dying, absolved the sins of his believers past, present and future?  Its perfectly fine to believe this, sure, but to claim it as outright fact is wrong, and not simply because the only source for these grand claims is the Bible (a book which contains within it numerous self-contradictory and inaccurate passages, but thats another discussion) but also that to attempt to pin him down as a concrete character defies the various interpretations which have lead to the factioning of the church based on different eschatologies.  Different christian religions all see christ in different lights.  Some believe he was a miracle worker, some a philosopher/teacher, some see him as a pure man of God and some as God himself.  &lt;br /&gt;
:Don't get me wrong, TK, I'm fully in favor of an un-neutral encyclopedia that promotes a specific &amp;quot;Christian, Conservative&amp;quot; narrative by selectively cherrypicking evidence and ignoring context to suggest as fact things that are not necessarily the case, and certainly the article can stay such as it is, offending the intellectual sensibilities of people like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin who saw truth in Christ's teachings but had &amp;quot;doubts as to his divinity,&amp;quot; by committing the intellectual dishonesty of stating these things as outright fact which only cite one text as the source for these extraordinary claims.  &lt;br /&gt;
:I just think though that if beliefs are going to be stated as fact that CPedia needs to come out front and decide which particular kind of christianity its going to promote as singularly true.  Which particular protestant reformations will CPedia then be in a position to declare as false?  Which Catholic sects?  Methodism?  Lutheranism?  Mormonism?  Making an &amp;quot;un-neutral&amp;quot; statement does get that snowball rolling after all, and if you've decided, TK, that neutrality is a bad thing, then riddle me this:  Which conservapedia contributors... no... which CPedia Sysops will have the fun to find that the CPedia says their particular belief in Christ is outright wrong?  I would really like to know.  You all going to vote on which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; are you?  I mean clearly here &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; is decided by the ideaology of the sysops as a group, and its not very likely that you all go to the exact same church, so who is it, specifically, who gets to have their Christian faith called false here?  Inquiring minds want to know.&lt;br /&gt;
:--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 12:27, 15 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::I think you got off on a tangent there.  The majority of practicing Christians would have no trouble with the portrayal of Jesus put forth by Lostcaesar; there's no need to identify every variant and condition to the point where gridlock trumps common sense.  And saying only one text is cited for Jesus is like taking all of the works of ancient Greece and putting them in one volume, then saying there's only one source that discusses ancient Greece. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 02:24, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I apologize if I was unclear.  I realize that there is archeological evidence that Jesus existed, but the problem isn't whether he lived or not.  Its his divinity.  The only source for such a claim is a selection of specific accounts of his life (others who witnessed him do not mention miracles, as an example) of which there is no supporting evidence.  The only you can say about his divinity, therefore, is that the bible claims it to be so and that people believe it.  Stating it as manifest fact simply because the majority agrees would be like, if the majority were also Star Trek fans, saying that Capt. James T Kirk is a real person.  Facts are not democratic and demand quantification.&lt;br /&gt;
:My other problem with &amp;quot;majority&amp;quot; being used to argue the stament of beliefs as fact in this sense is that you admit there are a minority of Christians (myself among them) who do not necessarily believe in the divinity of Christ.  Say then that another section goes up in the article about how He should be worshipped then.  Do you populate that section with the majority religion at the expense of the others?  Say Catholicism over Protestantism?  Then that majority further divides over reformations and yields another majority, which then divides over another issue and then another, and before long you have Russian Nesting dolls, each being a majority, until the &amp;quot;minorities&amp;quot; put together outnumber the &amp;quot;majorities&amp;quot; 10 to 1.  &lt;br /&gt;
:When you allow lapsed standards for statements of fact such as this merely on the basis of it being the opinion of the majority, you get exactly that situation in the long run.  I notice, of course, that if a liberal were to make a similar unverifiable, intellectually dishonest claim on this site, he'd be hunted down with dogs.  For consistancy's sake, for legitimacy's sake, and not least of all for Christ's sake, the only thing that should be said as fact about Christ's divinity is that the bible claims it to be so.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 11:38, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.  Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: &amp;quot;Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.&amp;quot; ...The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, &amp;quot;Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews.&amp;quot;'' (John 19:18-19, 21)&lt;br /&gt;
::What will we write?  &amp;quot;Jesus is the Son of God&amp;quot;, or &amp;quot;some claim he said that he was the Son of God.&amp;quot; ? [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 12:40, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I think the best and simplest thing to say is some variant of &amp;quot;According to the Bible, Jesus was the son of god, born of a virgin, etc.&amp;quot; since I agree the bible is the most pivotal reference for alot of the history attributed to him.  The important thing to realize is that, and I dont mean this to be as condescenting as it might sound, but Jesus here is basically a character in a book, and as such since the only real source for the bulk of the extraordinary claims is that same book, the very simple quantifier &amp;quot;According to the bible...&amp;quot; used sparingly just to establish that context would, I think, be the best course of action.  Fair?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 13:41, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Sorry to follow you here, RexMundane, I'll cease with this observation.  I generally agree with your modest tone here, and do not take offense.  I would like to add one clarification, though.  While the Bible is most often published in a single book, it is actually a collection of books (or scrolls), letters, etc.  The phrasing &amp;quot;According to the Bible...&amp;quot; seems to ickypedian to me.  This is a conservative encyclopedia.  I am not sure we need to cite the source of the statement in line, but perhaps we do.  I don't think conservapedia is about doubting the historocity of Jesus.  Am I wrong?  [[User:HeartOfGold|HeartOfGold]] 15:57, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Well the claim of Jesus's divinity though is entirely based on the aggregate statements made by the bible.  I agree that there was a Jesus, that significant events in the story of his life, as recanted in the bible, have been verified by archeological record, and it is entirely honest to say as much.  Claiming he was born of a virgin, is the son of God, etc., however rather demands a quantifier since it is, and I say this recognizing this as a &amp;quot;christian&amp;quot; cyclopedia, only a claim being made by one source (I am here refering to the selection of texts in the bible as a single group) and significant as that source is to discussing the nature of Jesus, I maintain that it is wrong to say these things as objective fact when, outside of the claims made by that one source, there is no other empirical proof to say that, for instance, the ressurection was a real event.  If the event exists, basically, only as an event in the story the Bible tells, that should be made explicit.  &lt;br /&gt;
:As I say, I consider myself a christian in a sort of Thomas Jefferson sense, and don't require him to have been supernatural or even for the bible to have been accurate in order to be able to glean moral lessons from the story of his life.  I realize that my opinion is not as important as the bible's in this regard, certainly as far as conveying the story of Christ, but the important thing is that the story is, basically, the bible's version.  An important version to be sure, but it does a disservice to not make that clear, I rather think.  Given too how I don't actually see how saying something like &amp;quot;The Bible says Jesus was X&amp;quot; instead of simply &amp;quot;Jesus was X&amp;quot; in any way changes a persons interpretation of Christ or his story in any significant way.  I'm not saying to call it a lie, just to acknowledge that the primary basis for the claims is the bible itself.--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 17:21, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Jesus' divinity is known by revelation, making it a fact that we can be certain about.  If you wish to talk about sources, a section would be appropriate, where we can talk about the witness of the Bible, the Church Fathers, and any of the many miracles wrought in his name in the two thousand years since his resurrection.  But, just as we would not qualify every statement about Julius Caesar being emperor of Rome, we should not qualify what we say about the Son of God. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 19:42, 16 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:The distinction is that Ceaser being the emperor of rome is not disputed by anyone, whereas the nature of the divinity of Christ, even among Christians, is under dispute.  &amp;quot;Jesus' divinity is known by revelation,&amp;quot; only to those who know it, not to everyone.  Among even people who believe in the truth of his teachings there are legitimate arguments as to whether or not the account of the bible regarding the virgin birth, miracles, etc., is true, or even necessary.  All I'm asking for is that such statements of divinity which historians and christians themselves have disagreements on simply be clarified as being the bible's account.  Saying its not necessary simply because the majority of christians believe in it sends us down the rabbit hole of deciding which religion is &amp;quot;true&amp;quot; by majority as well.  I'm sorry, please help me here, why is there such opposition to simply adding the phrase &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; once or twice?--[[User:RexMundane|Rex Mundane]] 10:23, 17 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I agree with Rex.  Stating that Jesus *is* the Son of God unequivocally leaves Conservapedia in the position of endorsing Christianity as objectively true, when in fact this isn't verifiable, and the majority of people on earth are not Christian.  A statement saying &amp;quot;According to the Bible&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;According to the Christian faith&amp;quot; as a preface would make this more objective. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 13:11, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::1) This is a Christian encyclopedia.  2) While you may not think it is 'verifiable', others are not obliged to agree with this conclusion or approach.  3) Truth is not determined by mere popular whimsy, ergo the number of Christians is not directly relevant, though the position of the faith as the plurality, or near plurality position amongst different religions ought to give cause to reevaluate your position, even if you continue with the assumption that sheer number is directly relevant. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 16:34, 21 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::1) No, it isn't a Christian encyclopedia; it's a conservative encyclopedia QED.  Not all conservatives are Christians, and even if they were it wouldn't make the question of Christ's divinity any more or less objectively verifiable.  2) It isn't just me that believes that the question of Christ's divinity is unverifiable.  Such a question is one of faith, not of science, and as such is purely subjective.  You may personally believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior, and noone is suggesting that you should believe otherwise, but you should recognize that this position can't be objectively proven.  3) I'm not making an argumentum ad populum, I'm simply pointing out that Conservapedia should not be in the business of claiming that one religion is true over all others, and it's sheer hubris to do otherwise.  [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 11:39, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::You sounds as if you consider your statement (2) to be &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot;, since you give no argument for it other than to repeat the assertion.  Whatever the case, what is &amp;quot;objectively verifiable&amp;quot; is that the frontpage contains a Daily Bible Verse - [http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070306/26179_Conservapedia_Challenges_%27Anti-Christian%27_Wiki.htm a useful text]. [[User:Lostcaesar|Lostcaesar]] 13:06, 22 May 2007 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172472</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172472"/>
		<updated>2007-05-22T12:25:17Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Overview */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions depened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (of the ''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents, and doubts about the supposed debate need not necessarily extend to the Acts of Pilate itself.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172471</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172471"/>
		<updated>2007-05-22T12:20:10Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Thallus */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (of the ''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents, and doubts about the supposed debate need not necessarily extend to the Acts of Pilate itself.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172470</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172470"/>
		<updated>2007-05-22T12:19:04Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* (lost) Acts of Pilate */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (of the ''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents, and doubts about the supposed debate need not necessarily extend to the Acts of Pilate itself.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
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		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172469</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=172469"/>
		<updated>2007-05-22T12:17:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* (lost) Acts of Pilate */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (of the ''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171859</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171859"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T22:22:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Tacitus */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171852</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171852"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T22:18:35Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Josephus */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Roman political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171850</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171850"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T22:17:53Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Greco-Roman Sources */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, are witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171849</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171849"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T22:17:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Greco-Roman Sources */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material establishes that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Christianity]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171845</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171845"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T22:16:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Pseudo-Christian Sources */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material established that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Jesus]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171838</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171838"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T22:13:09Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Holy Gospels */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether [[Jesus]] existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst historians on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the [[gospel]]s of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the [[Jerusalem]] Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by [[Saint Paul]], who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including [[Saint Peter]] himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the [[Early Church Fathers|Apostolic Fathers]].  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian [[Josephus|Josephus Flavius]] – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by [[Tacitus]], his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by [[Lee Strobel]], ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The sum total of this material established that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171809</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
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		<updated>2007-05-21T21:56:35Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether Jesus existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst scholars on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the Jerusalem Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by Saint Paul, who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including Saint Peter himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the Apostolic Fathers.  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian Josephus Flavius – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by Tacitus, his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by Lee Strobel, ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers, recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material established that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:''About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:''Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:''On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:''One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…''if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:''The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
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		<updated>2007-05-21T21:54:43Z</updated>

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[[Luke and 'the' Census]]; &lt;br /&gt;
[[Historicity of Jesus]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
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		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
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		<updated>2007-05-21T21:52:22Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: /* Proponents of the Myth argument */&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether Jesus existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst scholars on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the Jerusalem Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by Saint Paul, who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including Saint Peter himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the Apostolic Fathers.  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian Josephus Flavius – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by Tacitus, his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by Lee Strobel, ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers, recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material established that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells (a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price (a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of Josef Keil and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171800</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171800"/>
		<updated>2007-05-21T21:51:43Z</updated>

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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether Jesus existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst scholars on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the Jerusalem Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by Saint Paul, who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including Saint Peter himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the Apostolic Fathers.  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian Josephus Flavius – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by Tacitus, his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by Lee Strobel, ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers, recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material established that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.  It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells ( a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price ( a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of [[Josef Keil|J. Keil]] and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&amp;diff=171797</id>
		<title>Historicity of Jesus</title>
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		<updated>2007-05-21T21:50:33Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Lostcaesar: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;The '''historicity of Jesus''' concerns the so-called ‘debate’ over whether Jesus existed as a real historical person, or whether he is simply a mythological imagination.  This article will show that the evidence for the existence of Jesus overwhelming.  Hence, there is simply no debate amongst scholars on the matter.  In other words, for someone to argue that Jesus never existed (and thus is merely a myth) is to place himself against not only the field of scholarship and the historical record, but even against reason and common sense.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Sources ==&lt;br /&gt;
=== Overview ===&lt;br /&gt;
The sources for the historical existence of Jesus are many.  First, there are four biographies – the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – written either by eyewitnesses, or by authors who had access to eyewitnesses.  Some scholars have speculated that earlier sources (such as a Passion narrative) were written within a few years of Jesus’ death by members of the Jerusalem Church and were later incorporated in the gospels.  There is also a collection of letters by Saint Paul, who wrote from the late 40s to the mid 60s (when he was martyred).  These letters include early creedal professions and hymns whose origins have been traced to within a few years of Jesus’ death and coming from the Jerusalem community.  There are also other letters written by the apostles or disciples, including Saint Peter himself.  A history of the early Church, the Acts of the Apostles contains information on Jesus’ earthly life, including internal source material such as the preserved preaching of Peter.  Important testimony is also found in late first and early second century writings of the Apostolic Fathers.  Jesus’ earthly life was even mentioned by some pseudo-Christian and non-Christian writings, including the Romano-Jewish historian Josephus Flavius – all to be discussed below.&lt;br /&gt;
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Obviously, the bulk of the information comes from Christian sources.  This is to be expected.  The common temptation to radically fissure the sources into Christian / non-Christian categories (with the former then being dismissed) is a practice foreign to historical methods.  Historians certainly identify an author’s context, motivations, aims, and the like, but to dismiss a source (or whole group of sources) merely because the author(s) was personally invested in his subject is unjustified.  For example, the only detailed source for the Roman general Agricola’s conquest of Britain was written by Tacitus, his son-in-law, who was obviously personally interested in the career of his subject, and the glorification of Rome in general.  But Tacitus’s invaluable work has formed the basis for historical reconstructions of the conquest, proving to be a wealth of information – and these reconstructions deepened principally on just this one written source.  As summarized by Craig L. Blomberg, “…if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;quoted by Lee Strobel, ''The Case for Christ'' (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998), p. 31.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Such an argument naturally extends to other Christian sources as well.  That said, the evidence from non-Christian sources, even taken alone, is more than enough to establish the minimal claim of Jesus’ existence and influence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Holy Gospels ===&lt;br /&gt;
The four biographies of the life of Jesus written during the first century A.D. are known as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  These works contain the most detailed information about the life of Jesus.  Perhaps the best-known material would be Jesus’ birth, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven.  The gospels contain all sorts of other information, naming Jesus’ close companions, identifying locations where his teachings were given or miracles were performed, describing Jewish customs in detail, referencing the topography of Jerusalem, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
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While it is impossible to examine the gospels in detail here, it will suffice to show that they clearly presented themselves as historical documents, describing historical events in a falsifiable way and within a specific historical setting known to their audience.  The three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written before A. D. 70, with a much earlier date possible concerning Matthew.  Their textual relations with one another, and their authorship, are complex topics, but a general summary based on the witnesses of history will prove useful.  As the Church Fathers, recorded, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle, who was an eyewitness to the events he described.  Mark was a follower of Peter the Apostle, and he also had access to other sources, including Matthew’s Gospel, and probably Luke’s.  Luke was a follower of Paul, who would have had access to disciples of Jesus, and even his relatives, through connections with Antioch and ultimately Jerusalem.  John’s Gospel was written last, around A. D. 90, by a disciple of the Lord and eyewitness to the events, referred to as the ‘beloved disciple’ in the text.  Thus, the gospel writers were either on the spot themselves, or they had access to people who were.&lt;br /&gt;
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===Pauline Epistles===&lt;br /&gt;
A collection of letters written by Saint Paul also discuss Jesus.  Paul was not himself an eyewitness of Jesus until after the resurrection, but, besides whatever knowledge the Lord gave to him in his glorified state, Paul also knew Jesus’ disciples, especially Saint Peter.  Paul’s letters are pastoral writings meant to address the needs of particular Christian communities, and as such they are not aimed at providing biographical narratives of Jesus’ life.  Nonetheless, they do mention Jesus, especially his death and resurrection, but also the Last Supper, and they quote Jesus or reference his teachings.  At times Paul qualified his own teachings by stating, “I say, not the Lord”, indicating that he knew Jesus’ teachings.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Ancient Creeds ===&lt;br /&gt;
Many of Paul’s letters, and other New Testament epistles, contain quotations from early creeds or creedal hymns.  Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.  The great value of these texts as sources is elaborated upon by O. Cullmann, in his, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' trans. J. K. S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1949), and also G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ'' (College Press, 1996).  Much of the data below is taken from the latter.&lt;br /&gt;
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4 reads, &amp;quot;For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.&amp;quot;  This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald Fuller, ''The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives'' (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, ''1 Corinthians'', translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, ''The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology'', ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, ''The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus'' (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, ''First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity'' (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, ''Resurrection'' translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977)  p. 2; Hans Grass, ''Ostergeschen und Osterberichte'', Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, &amp;quot;This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Hans von Campenhausen, &amp;quot;The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb,&amp;quot; in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; whilst A. M. Hunter said, &amp;quot;The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony.  It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:,&amp;quot;This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Cullmann, ''Confessions'' p. 32&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2 Timothy 2:8, &amp;quot;Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Bultmann, ''Theology of the New Testament'' vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Romans 1:3-4, &amp;quot;…regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.&amp;quot;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wolfhart Pannenberg, ''Jesus – God and Man'' translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, ''The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments'' (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and 1 Timothy 3:16, &amp;quot;He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory,&amp;quot; an early creedal hymn.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Reginald Fuller, ''The Foundations of New Testament Christology'' (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, ''The Eucharistic Words of Jesus'' translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, ''The Earliest Christian Confessions'' (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Early Church Fathers ===&lt;br /&gt;
Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and the historical details of his life.  Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome’s ''Letter to the Corinthians'' (''c.'' 100), Ignatius of Antioch’s many epistles (''c.'' 107-110), Justin Martyr’s second century apologetic works, and others.  But perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early second century references of Papias and Quadratus (of Athens).  They both mention disciples of Jesus – eyewitnesses who testified to his life and miracles – who were still alive at the time they wrote.  Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (now lost) gospel commentaries, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''…if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders &amp;amp;mdash; [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (''c''. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, stated:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Quoted in Eusebius, ''Ecclesiastical History'' 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” he presumably refers to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Richard Bauckham, ''Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'' (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Other early Christian texts mention Jesus is in detail.  The Didache, for example, is a collection of teachings based on the apostolic witness, which itself was based on Jesus’ doctrine.  Many of these texts, however, are too late (dating to the second half of the second century) to be used as proper historical sources, at least not without much caution, and they cannot establish the same claim to eyewitness authority as can the other writings mentioned above.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Pseudo-Christian Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
An early heretical section known as gnosticism produced texts that purported to contain information about Jesus, generally his (enigmatic) sayings.  They are very dubious sources, dating to the second half of the second century at the earliest, and lacking a historical connection to the disciples (despite their claims).  They are perhaps most useful in reminding us of how good the earlier (and orthodox) gospels are, by presenting us with an example of what an inaccurate source concerning Jesus really looks like.  Furthermore, the gnostic texts show a general disinterest in the historical details of Jesus’ life, and they fail to present a standard historical narrative, giving only a list of sayings framed in the structure of an alleged secret revelation.&lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts do mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have, with great caution, sought to glean certain bits of information about Jesus from them.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;James M. Robinson, ed., ''The Nag Hammadi Library in English'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, ''Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity'' (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); R. E. Brown, &amp;quot;The Christians Who Lost Out&amp;quot; in ''The New York Times Book Review'', 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, ''Nag Hammadi in English'', vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The relevance for us in not so much the conclusions of these scholars, but the fact that, in a minimal and contingent way, they help dispel the notion that Jesus never existed as a historical figure.  Examples of such texts include the ''Gospel of Truth'', ''Treatise on Resurrection'', and the ''Apocryphon of John'', the latter of which opens with the following:&lt;br /&gt;
: ''It happened one day when John, the brother of James – who are sons of Zebedee – went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: &amp;quot;Where is your master whom you followed?&amp;quot;  And he said to them: &amp;quot;He has gone to the place from which he came.&amp;quot;  The Pharisee said to him: &amp;quot;This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Apocryphon of John'' 1:5-17&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Greco-Roman Sources ===&lt;br /&gt;
Greco-Roman sources of the time show little to no interest in the religious movements of the backwater and troublesome Jewish province of Judea, or even the Near East in general.  Perhaps the exception would be Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian who was interested in recording Jewish history, especially the political conflicts that lead to the military downfall of zealous Jewish nationalistic movements.  Though not centrally concerned with religious developments, Josephus did mention Jesus, and other Christians such as James and the Precursor of the Lord, St. John the Baptist (who may be considered Christian since he accepted Jesus as the Christ, though he would be beheaded long before Jesus’ death and glorification).  Furthermore, other writers do mention Jesus as well, and their passages will be examined below.&lt;br /&gt;
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The sum total of this material established that Jesus existed, and that he was a significant figure who made a marked religious impact.  His Messianic claims, his reputation and following, his crucifixion, and the controversy between him (and his followers) and the Jewish authorities are all supported by these texts.  Furthermore, it may be that more dramatic occurrences, such as his miracles and even resurrection, and witnessed by Josephus – though these greater claims about the Greco-Roman material are certainly open to debate.  Without a doubt, the best material concerning Jesus remains the gospels and other New Testament texts, as well as the testimony of the Apostolic Fathers.  But these Greco-Roman sources provide important secondary testimony and, even taken alone, are enough to refute the view that Jesus is merely a mythological imagination.&lt;br /&gt;
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====Josephus====&lt;br /&gt;
Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37 – 100) was a Jew and a Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavian dynasty.  Josephus is unusual in that, while he was Jewish, he was loyal to the Rome political powers.  In A. D. 93 he wrote his ''Antiquities of the Jews'', a work recording the history of the Jews.  In it, Jesus is mentioned twice.  The second mentioning is the shorter, and will be discussed first.  It is a completely disinterested comment made in passing, where, when talking about James, Josephus specifics which James he means by identifying his subject as James &amp;quot;the brother [or kinsman] of Jesus, who was called Christ&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm Antiquities 20:9.1]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Scholars have found little or no reason to doubt the authenticity of this passage and have, by and large, accepted it as genuine.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Louis H. Feldman, &amp;quot;Josephus&amp;quot; Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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More notably, an earlier mention of Jesus is made in a passage that has come to be called the in the ''Testimonium Flavianum'':&lt;br /&gt;
:About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvelous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Josephus ''[http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm Antiquities 18.3.3]''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Most scholars accept the authenticity of the majority of the passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;John Drane ''Introducing the New Testament'' (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; also, James H. Charlesworth, ''Jesus Within Judaism'' (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, certain parts have been called into question, especially those which conform with the Christian creed.  These doubts are not based on the manuscript record, which is consistent, nor on the language, which is stylistically harmonious with Josephus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Henri Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, ''Christianity: The Witness of History'' (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, ''New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?'' (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Concerning the ''Testimonium Flavianum'', Habermas wrote, &amp;quot;There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for these statements about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;G. R. Habermas, ''The Historical Jesus'' p. 193&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And there are even  a few scholars support the authenticity of the entire passage.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
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Nonetheless, the fact that Josephus, by all accounts an adherent to Judaism, would so openly proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah who rose from the dead has been hard for many to accept, especially given Josephus’s later statement, which reservedly said only that Jesus was “called” the Christ.  Likewise, the fact that some of the early Church Fathers did not employ this text, even when quoting from Josephus, has contributed to the doubts.  However, this is (with one exception) an argument from silence, and some (later) Fathers did know the passage.  The exception is Origen, who wrote that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ.  Though it is important not to take this one utterance to far, it does raise a legitimate question about the authenticity of the entire passage.  Whatever the case, it is in no sense necessary to affirm the entirety of the passage in order to establish that Josephus did indeed record Jesus as a historical person, a claim that virtually every scholar (opinions about the integrity of the passage aside) would agree with.  Indeed, the brief reference, concerning James, alone is enough to establish not only that Jesus was a real historical person, but that he had an significant impact, since Josephus could clarify which (of the many) people named James he was talking about merely by pointing to his relation with Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Tacitus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was a Roman historian who, writing c. A. D. 116, included in his ''Annals '' a mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome in A. D. 64, he wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
:Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. ''Christ'', from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and the most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tacitus, ''Annals'' 15.44.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Tacitus was obviously hostile to Christianity and thus had no desire to give credence to the claims of the faith.  Nonetheless, he identifies “Christ” (Latin ''Christus'') as the origin of the religion, and even mentions his crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate.  Tacitus's source was likely an imperial record, and it has been speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;F.F. Bruce, ''Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament'', (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), p. 23.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  No scholar doubts the authenticity of the passage, in part because, as R. E. Van Voorst noted, it would be most improbable that a Christian would have interpolated &amp;quot;such disparaging remarks about Christianity&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Eerdmans, 2000), p. 43.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Suetonius ====&lt;br /&gt;
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, a Roman historian, wrote in A. D. 112 his ''Lives of the Twelve Caesars''.  In his biography of the Emperor Claudius, he mentioned riots that had broken out in the Jewish community in Rome in 49, stating &amp;quot;As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [other manuscripts read ''Christus'', that is, “Christ”], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome&amp;quot;.  (The riots and expulsion of the Jews was also recorded in Acts 18:2).  Though some manuscripts read “Christus”, the original text may have read “Chrestus”, a possible spelling error or spelling variant intending to mean “Christ”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Francois Amiot, ''Jesus A Historical Person'' p. 8; F. F. Bruce, ''Christian Origins'' p. 21&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term ''Chrestus'' also appears in some later texts as a reference Jesus.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see his translation of Suetonius, ''Claudius'' 25, in ''The Twelve Caesars'' (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Obviously, the riots occurred some years after Jesus’ death and ascension, and so the precise meaning of the passage is open to speculation.&lt;br /&gt;
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==== Thallus ====&lt;br /&gt;
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century.  His work has been lost.  However, an important reference to it was made by Sextus Julius Africanus.  Julius Africanus, writing around 221, described the darkness and earthquakes which occurred when Our Lord was crucified (mentioned in the gospels).  He cited Thallus as a non-Christian who gave testimony to these events:&lt;br /&gt;
:On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.  This darkness Thallus, in his third book of ''History'', calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Julius Africanus, ''Extant Writings'' XVIII in ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==== (lost) Acts of Pilate ====&lt;br /&gt;
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document (''commentaii principis'') from Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius reporting events in Palestine.  It was mentioned by [[Justin Martyr]], in his ''First Apology'' (''c''. A. D. 150) to [[Antoninus Pius]], [[Marcus Aurelius]], and [[Lucius Verus]].  Justin said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the &amp;quot;Acts of Pontius Pilate&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Justin Martyr, ''First Apology'' 48&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;see Tertullian, ''Apology'' V.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  However, Tertullian may not have been well informed about the work’s genuine contents.  There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, which was likely inspired by Justin's reference.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;It is possible, conversely, that Justin actually mentioned the apocryphal text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;for a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, ''Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries'', p. 14&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  And it would be unlikely that Justin would cite a document, one he claimed to be official and kept in the imperial archives, that was known to be fallacious or non-existent in a letter written to the emperor designed to defend Christianity.  Nonetheless, it is impossible to conclude any certain position about the text, given the obscure nature of the evidence.&lt;br /&gt;
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=== Jewish records ===&lt;br /&gt;
Rabbi Akiba, before his death in A. D. 135, recorded oral traditions, especially of a legal nature, in what is known as the Mishnah.  This, together with commentaries called the “Gemaras”, constitute the Talmud.  ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:&lt;br /&gt;
:One the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.  Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: &amp;quot;He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.&amp;quot;  But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''The Babylonian Talmud'', translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, ''Sanhedrin'' 43a, p. 281&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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The reference is certainly laconic, and at first the details seem incompatible with what is known about Jesus’ death.  However, once it is observed that the phrase “hanged” was a manner of speech that was used to signify crucifixion (as in “hanged from a tree”), the passage may be interpreted as providing important support for Jesus’ death, around the Passover, in part because of accusations of blasphemy (enticing Israel to apostacy) and because of his wonderworkings (taken as sorcery, i.e. the product of devilish aid – an accusation recorded in the gospels).  The act of stoning is not directly paralleled in the gospels, though John’s gospel does record such an attempt.  It is important not to push this harmonization too far, especially because it misses the point, which is to observe a plausible Jewish record of key feature’s of Jesus’ life.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Proponents of the Myth argument ==&lt;br /&gt;
A few academics, notably not including historians or biblical scholars, have asserted that Jesus never existed and that he is simply a mythological imagination.  These include G. A. Wells ( a professor of German), Earl Doherty (who does not hold a doctoral degree), Robert M. Price ( a systematic theologian), Michael Martin (a philosopher), Timothy Freke (who holds no postgraduate degree), and Peter Gandy (who holds no doctoral degree).  By such parenthetical comments this article does not intend to be uncharitable to the academics or others who hold to this position, but it is no disparagement to observe what it true: that these scholars are not historians or biblical scholars.  Neither is it unfair to observe how this has, at times, impeded the quality of work produced.  For example, in their work ''The Jesus Mysteries'', Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy used as cover art an image of an amulet of “Orpheus crucified” (their position being that Jesus was a mythological figure patterned after Osiris-Dionysus) which has been proven to be a forgery.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;In his review of this book in ''Gnomon'', 1935, 476, Kern recants and expressed himself convinced by the expert opinion of [[Josef Keil|J. Keil]] and R. Zahn (''AGGELOS, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde'', 1926, 62 ff.) that the Orpheoc Bakkikos gem is a forgery.&amp;quot; W. C. K. Guthrie, ''Orpheus and Greek Religion: A Study of the Orphic Movement'', 2nd ed. (London: Methuen, 1952), p. 278, n. to p. 265. This problem was identified by James Hannam; see his comments on his [http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2004/07/some-news-and-thoughts-on-crucified.html Blog]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
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The mythological view has been rejected by the historical community.  Michael Grant stated that the view derives from a lack of application of historical methods:&lt;br /&gt;
:…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;M. Grant, ''Jesus: An Historian's Review'', pp. 199-200&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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Perhaps the scholarly opinion of the position is best summed by Robert E. Van Voorst:&lt;br /&gt;
:The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Robert E. Van Voorst, ''Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence'' (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
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		<author><name>Lostcaesar</name></author>
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