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Christianity

2010-06-22T19:16:11Z

KenJ: Atheism has a satire, so a fair and balanced encyclopedia such as this one would require one for the other side as well.

{{Christianity}}
'''Christianity''' is the world's largest [[religion]], having 2.2 billion followers. It is a [[monotheistic]] religion that professes belief in [[Jesus]] as the Son of [[God]]. Christianity takes its name from [[Jesus Christ]] meaning "Jesus the Savior" and "Jesus the Anointed One". Followers of Jesus are called Christians, meaning "of Christ" or "belonging to Christ".<ref>[http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=2661&dict=CALD Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary]</ref> <br>
Today, Christianity is widespread and is practiced on all continents. It is most prevalent in Latin America, with a following of over four hundred million. Over 90% of the population of countries like Mexico, Brazil, and the Democratic Republic of Congo practice Christianity. Other significant regions include North America and Eurasia, where over 70% of the population is Christian.

== Main Christian groups ==
[[Image:Anglican Christ Church.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Anglican Christ Church in Western Australia]]
'''The three largest self-governing bodies of Christians are:'''

* The [[Roman Catholic Church]] (approx. 1.1 billion baptized members) traces its roots back to [[Saint Peter]] whom Catholics believed established the Church and the succession of the [[Pope]]s as the spiritual authority over the Christian body of believers.

* The [[Orthodox Church]]es (approx. 300 million baptized members) also trace their roots back to the beginnings of Christianity, but do not believe in the Primacy of the Pope. Differing theological perspectives led to the [[Great Schism]] between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches in A.D. 1054.

* [[Protestantism]]; the largest Communions are the [[Anglican Church|Anglicans]] (approx. 77 million baptized members) and the Lutheran World Federation (approx. 68 million baptized members). Protestantism has its origins in the European [[Reformation]]. It first broke away from the Roman Catholic Church under [[Martin Luther]] when differences over the nature of [[faith]] and works in the role of [[Christianity#salvation|salvation]] as well as other practices that Luther saw in the Catholic Church at that time that he did not agree with could not be adequately reconciled with Papal prescriptions. Other preachers and movements then followed Luther's example and also left the Catholic fold.

== Christian Beliefs ==
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'''CHRISTIANITY'''

The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically <br>eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master,<br> so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a <br>rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Makes perfect sense.
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Theologians, over two millennia, have debated a definitive summary of the Christian faith. While its interpretations vary drastically, probably the most commonly accepted statement of faith is the [[Nicene Creed| Nicea-Constantinopolitan Creed]] below:

<blockquote>I believe in one God, [[God the Father|the Father Almighty]], Maker of [[heaven]] and [[earth]], and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the [[Holy Spirit]] and the [[Virgin Mary]], and became man. And He was crucified for us under [[Pontius Pilate]], and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the [[Bible|Scriptures]]; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the [[Resurrection]] of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.</blockquote>

Christians and Christian denominations agree on many points of doctrine and disagree on others. According to an online Harris poll from 2003 99% of all American Christians believe in [[God]], 96% in the [[Resurrection of Jesus Christ|resurrection of Jesus Christ]], 93% in [[Heaven]], 93% in the virgin birth, 92% in the survival of the soul after death, 82% in [[Hell]], 50% in ghosts, 27% in astrology and 21% in reincarnation. <ref>http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359</ref> Note that the latter two beliefs are in opposition to the religious tenents of most Christian denominations.

Nonetheless, the Nicea-Constantinopolitan Creed offers a general overall picture of what Christian theology looks like, and serves as a useful outline.

Other creeds may prove helpful in research. See also: the [[Apostle's Creed]], [[Athanasian Creed]].

===God===
{{main|God}}
God is a triune being. Though there is only one Divine nature there are three Divine Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three Persons are collectively called the [[Trinity]] or the Holy Trinity. While God is tripartite, this does not imply that Christians are polytheists--the oneness of the divine nature (or essence) is what matters. The doctrine of the Trinity is central to most (but not all) Christian theology.

A major theme of the Bible is [[love]]. In the Hebrew [[Old Testament]] the idea is expressed in the Hebrew word ''hessed'', which is variously translated as loyal love, tender mercy, steadfast love, mercy, goodness, etc. in the [[New Testament]] the same idea is expressed in the Greek word ''agape'', which is variously translated as love, compassion, charity, etc.

The God of the Christians is the creator of all things, is everywhere present, exists in all times, is transcendent, all-knowing (omniscient), just, and all-powerful (omnipotent).

===Jesus===
[[Image:Jesus' Baptism.jpg|180px|left|]]
During the reign of [[Augustus Caesar|Caesar Augustus]] the Son (e.g. the second Person of the Trinity) took flesh from a virgin woman and was incarnate as a man. He was born in the town of [[Bethlehem]] and was given the name [[Jesus]]. At the age of thirty he was baptized by his cousin, the [[John the Baptist|Prophet John]], and began to preach in the area [[Palestine]]. About three years after his baptism, he raised his friend [[Lazarus]] from the dead, prompting the Jewish power establishment to plot Jesus' death. Jesus was [[crucified]]. He came back from the dead and was seen by over 500 people. He ascended to Heaven. The four [[Gospels]] contain the records of some of what Jesus did and said, but he did much more than those four books relate, as the Apostle John said in his Gospel.
{{Clear}}

===Morality===
The fundamental principle in Christian moral teaching is love and forgiveness, as expressed by the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and the New Testament. Jesus summarized his teachings in two commandments from the Old Testament:

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." ([[Gospel of Matthew|Matthew]] 22:37-39; [[Book of Deuteronomy|Deuteronomy]] 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

Constant debate has resulted as to how a person should express love for God in their moral behavior. This moral dialogue found expression in the New Testament, where the [[Apostle Paul]] addressed such controversies as [[circumcision]] ([[Epistle to the Romans|Romans]] 2:25-29), eating meat that was sacrificed to [[pagan]] deities (1 Corinthians 8), speculating about myths and genealogies (1 Timothy 1:3-5), and observing ceremonial dates and seasons (Galatians 4:9-11).

Regardless of a person's ethical interpretations, adherents commonly point to New Testament passages John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 as scriptural depictions of love. The former states that <blockquote>"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."</blockquote> The latter characterizes love, saying <blockquote>"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."</blockquote>

Jesus Christ affirmed, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35)

In trying to understand the reason for the growth of Christianity in a pagan culture, it has been noted that while love of one's neighbor is not an exclusively Christian virtue, it appears that the primitive Christian church practiced it much more effectively than any other group.<ref>E.R. Dodds, 1970:136-137</ref> This is most likely due to the constant mention of hospitality and generosity to one's "neighbors" in the Bible. Jesus was especially passionate about caring for people in need:

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me." (Matthew 19:21)

In addition to sacrificially showing care for those within the community as well as to those without, (cf. Gal. 6:10) the Christians elevated the sanctity of life, opposing abortion, infanticide, child abandonment, suicide, and gladiatorial contests.<ref>Kenneth Scott Latourette, ''A history of Christianity'' p. 244</ref><ref> Ted Cabal, Chad Owen Brand, Paul Copan, The Apologetics Study Bible, 274 </ref> While the primitive church tolerated the existing and pervasive cultural economic institution of slavery in the [[Roman Empire]], the mandate of equal pay and just treatment (Col. 4:1; Eph. 6:9) greatly ameliorated the treatment of slaves, while advising them to seek freedom if possible, (1Cor. 7:21) and requiring that the escape slave Onesimus be received back not "as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved". (Philemon 1:6) The Christian ethos of love also motivated a great expansion in the building of hospitals.<ref>Albert John Ochsner, Meyer Joseph Sturm, ''The organization, construction and management of hospitals'', p. 17</ref><ref>Roderick E. McGrew, ''Encyclopaedia of Medical Care'', p. 135</ref> By 500 A.D., most large towns in in the Roman Empire had erected them.<ref>George D. Pozgar, ''Legal aspects of health care administration', p. 2</ref>

===The Atonement of Jesus on the Cross===
[[Image:Dalí The Christ of St. John of the Cross.jpg|thumb|The Christ of St. John of the Cross by [[Salvador Dalí]], 1951.]]
All Christians believe with the New Testament that the death of Jesus, along with His resurrection, is an indispensable proclamation of a crucial event for the reconciliation of lost sinners with God. There are three elements they see to understanding His death on the cross.

# Jesus having the knowledge that His path would lead to his own death, desired and willed that that take place, and persevered in that path though there was opportunity for Him to avoid it. Though there is ample recognition in the New Testament that others desired Him to die, and that the circumstances in which His path took him would bring Him to His end on earth, the mover of all these things was Himself and the will of the Father. "I have power to take my life and I have power to lay down my life. I lay down my life for the sheep."
# Jesus saw that in His death there would be a way for people to be brought back to the God from whom they were alienated and lost because of their sins. This would involve a substitution of Himself to effect that way. "For the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and give His life as a ransom for many." How this would take place was not new to the Jews of His day from their understanding of contemporary everyday practice of substitute payment - as in redemption of the first-born (Pidyon Ha Ben), or in the understanding of what aggadic stories such as the Binding of [[Isaac]] implied (see [[Midrash]]), but it was not the prevalent view that the Messiah was to be that payment. Though while alive on earth, he had hinted at it in sayings such as "unless a seed falls and dies, it remains alone, but when it dies, it brings forth..", it was only after He had risen from the dead that He explained Scripture (the Old Testament) clearly about the necessity of His death to have taken place. The disciples would henceforth preach, and Peter among them, that the death of Jesus the Messiah and His resurrection was for-planned and for-ordained by God the Father, and foretold in the Scripture (Isaiah 53). And so, "The Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God".
# It was the belief in Scripture, that in His death a way back to God was made possible for those that were near to God—the Jews. And a way back to God for those that were far away—the Gentiles. That is why the New Testament saw in the requirements of God for Israel a fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah. He was the perfect Israel, taken out of Egypt, to redeem Israel. And that is why the New Testament saw in Jesus, a deepness to the incarnation of the Son of God, deeper than just a Jew of His time of a certain tribe. He was the "Second Adam" to redeem the sons of Adam. This encompassing perspective had further implications.

Christians of all generations have looked to the perfect Atonement, and the hope for reconciliation, accomplished by Jesus on the cross, to provide the means of understanding the solution to the vexing problems of the mind and of life itself - How can I make reconciliation with my enemies, with even the members of my own family, of race with race and people with people?; Does His death for the sins of the world include those who only partially understand, for the baby aborted, the feeble minded, and severely retarded?; For those who have never heard of Jesus, never been "enlightened", distant and remote in place and time?; Does His death for the sins of the world also include a remedy for the ills that have come as a result of those sins—certain sicknesses, ills of the mind, body and the soul? Do they "hold" for today?; Does His death make good, turn to the better, show the way, effect the way, of the illnesses that have befallen the world, not only by sin, but simply by the circumstances of life, of degeneration, of compounded dysfunction? How does the fruit of His death bring in somehow the Kingdom "among us"?

The death of the Son of God on the cross has provided the solution for sin, and it still holds its sway over the imagination and aspirations for the people of our generation.

===Salvation===
The Bible teaches that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). This is often interpreted to mean that everyone has displeased God and is now separated from him in a kind of alienation and enmity that results from the fundamental conflict between selfish human interests and God's interests (Romans 8:5-8; James 4:4).

However, Jesus offered a solution to this Biblical dilemma in that by repentance of sins and faith in him (Jesus), their sins would be forgiven. He said that "...the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." ([[Gospel of Mark|Mark]] 2:10) Jesus also said, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17, and "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men" (Mark 2:28)

Jesus Christ taught that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" ([[Gospel of John|John]] 3:3). Protestant Evangelical Christianity often use the terms "saved" and "born again" interchangeably. Other Christians, notably the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church use the phrase ''born again'' as a synonym for [[baptism|baptized]]. "Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Christians are expected to continue living by Christ's teachings (John 8:31), as is appropriate for "children of Light" (Ephesians 5:8-10). Some believe that this is necessary in order to stay saved. However, this is a common misconception of the text. It is rather referring to proving that one is a child of God by their "fruit" (things that they do and how they behave). Christians in the Reformed tradition (following the teaching of the 16th century French lawyer [[John Calvin]], as well as the faith outlined in the Belgic and Heidleberg Confessions) say that salvation is irrevocable and that it cannot be lost, if it were genuinely part of one's life to begin with. Reformed Christians (often called [[Calvinists]]) often point to Romans 8:38-39 as validation of their belief: "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39; [[NASB]]). According to Calvinists, the reason it cannot be lost by natural things is because salvation was obtained through a supernatural being, namely Jesus Christ. This does not negate Jesus' human side, only that he was both one-hundred percent God and one-hundred percent man, according to the [[Council of Chalcedon]] (A. D. 451). The Bible also makes it clear that mankind cannot earn their salvation, and that it is a free gift.

== Resurrection of Jesus Christ ==
[[Image:Jesus resurrected.jpg|thumb|left|200px|"The Resurrection" by Carl Heinrich Bloch]]
The [[Resurrection of Jesus Christ|resurrection of Jesus Christ]] is critical to the Christian faith. The Apostle Paul wrote, "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain" (I Cor:15:14). Traditionally, Christianity has believed in a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.<ref>http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0056a.txt</ref>

In recent history Gary Habermas is considered the foremost [[Christian apologetics|Christian apologist]] for defending the resurrection of Jesus.<ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/dialog_rexperience/dialog_rexperiences.htm Experiences of the Risen Jesus: The Foundational Historical Issue in the Early Proclamation of the Resurrection], ''Dialog: A Journal of Theology'', Vol. 45; No. 3 (Fall, 2006), pp. 288-297.</ref><ref>"Wildcat" and Holding, J.P., [http://www.tektonics.org/books/lichabrvw.html Book review of "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus"], 22nd June, 2004 (Tektonics)</ref><ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/NTeSources/NTArticles/CTR-NT/Habermas-Resurrection1-CTR.pdf Jesus' Resurrection and Contemporary Criticism: An Apologetic] ''Criswell Theological Review'' 4.1 (1989) 159-74.</ref><ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/crj_explainingaway/crj_explainingaway.htm Explaining Away Jesus' Resurrection:
The Recent Revival of Hallucination Theories], Christian Research Journal / vol. 23, no. 4, 2001.</ref><ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html Why I Believe The New Testament Is Historically Reliable] (Apologetics.com)</ref>
Other notable defenders of the resurrection include: [[William Lane Craig]],<ref>Craig, William Lane, [http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/historical.html Articles: Historical Jesus]</ref> [[Lee Strobel]], [[Josh McDowell]],<ref>McDowell, Josh, [http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html Evidence for the Resurrection], 1992.</ref> [[Edwin M. Yamauchi]],<ref>Jamauchi, Edwin M., [http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?]</ref> [[N.T. Wright]]<ref>Wright, N.T., [http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Early_Traditions.htm Early Traditions and the Origins of Christianity], ''Sewanee Theological Review'' 41.2, 1998.</ref> and [[Michael Horner]].<ref>Horner, Michael, [http://www.michaelhorner.com/articles/resurrection/index.html Did Jesus Really Rise from the Dead?]</ref>

===The Meaning of the Resurrection for Christians===

The Fact of the Resurrection of Christ is a key element of the preaching of the message about Jesus and an essential of Christian belief. But there are also certain effects that this belief has on the lives of believers.

1. It is because Jesus rose from the dead, that believers now can resort to a living Savior to help and deliver them from sin and from situations overwhelming for them by their own powers.

2. The New Testament sees in the resurrection of Christ a certain vindication of what apparently to the world and to all beings was a failure and an overcoming of Him by His crucifixion. He was "declared to be the Son of God" by His resurrection. This brings believers in Him to a strong confidence in the determined power of God to both vindicate in their own lives and to bring His reign upon earth.

3. The coming of Jesus back to life means to the believer that, indeed, their sins are totally forgiven. This is because believers know that His death was as a payment for sins - a "wage of death" for our sins that He received in our stead. If He remained dead, believers would know that the wage had not been fully paid. His resurrection, carries with it our knowledge that our sin with its attendant death has been totally and finally paid for.

4. It is a now living Savior that Christians know can go before them, can closely lead them through life - as He did when He was on earth. This makes following Him practical and real.

5. The New Testament reveals that it is the Risen Christ who received from the Father the Holy Spirit and He, through Himself ascended to the Father, has given the Holy Spirit to us. This gives the believer in Christ both the knowledge and the power to live a godly life, and live a life that can be an intimately and personally directed one.

6. The resurrected Christ was no mere reassembling of the molecules and particles of the Body that had been crucified. It was, indeed, a physical body, but one that was fully under the Spirit's control, guidance, and empowerment. It was a "spiritual body". Christians know that likewise, they will one day be granted the nature of a spiritual body, and full of health. They therefore are full of hope and consolations, and consider that even now in this life, there is an overcoming through Him, a restoration, and that tears, even now, are wiped away.

== Evangelism ==
In what is called the [[Great Commission]], Jesus sent his disciples out into the world to preach the Gospel (literally "good news") and make disciples.
:'''Great Commission'''
:''But the eleven disciples proceeded to [[Galilee]], to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in [[heaven]] and on [[earth]]." Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the [[#God the Father|Father]] and the [[#God the Son|Son]] and the [[#God the Holy Spirit|Holy Spirit]], teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."'' --[[Gospel of Matthew|Matthew]] 28:16-20 [[New American Standard Bible|NASB]]

[[Image:Gleyre The Departure of the Apostles.jpg|thumb|240px|The Departure of the Apostles by [[Charles Gleyre]].]]
<br>

==History of the name "Christian"==
The early Christian faith was sometimes called ''That Way'', (Acts 19:1,9,23; 24:22) and the church its adherents were also called ''Nazarenes'', (Acts 24:5) evidently after the city of [[Nazareth]] where Jesus lived. Probably close to A.D 50 the [[Acts of the Apostles|Book of Acts]] (Acts:11:26) records that "the disciples were called Christians first in [[Antioch]]." The title ''Christian'' is also used in Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16, and likely is referred to in James 2:7, "Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?"

==Early Church Community and Commitment: The Biblical Period==

The Bible records that that at least initially, the church was a single organic community, in which

:they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. {43} And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. {44} And all that believed were together, and had all things common; {45} And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. {46} And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."(Acts 2:42-47; 4:32)

This community was soon "scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles" due to determined persecution, which resulted in the dispersed disciples going "every where preaching the word." (Acts 8:1,4) Though the scattered Christian community could be found relatively soon throughout the then known world, they were primarily to be found in two separate cultural and liguistic entities and then kindoms, the Greek and then Latin speaking empires of Europe and the mid-east, and the Aramaic speaking sphere of the Parthian empire of the mid and far-east. This latter sphere encompassed not only the eastern portions of Syria, Arabian peninsula and Persia, but also extended to portions of southern India and even China. To this day there are many [[Aramaic Church]] members in the Kerala province of south India.

Other evidence indicates believers had their own houses and goods. (Acts 10:6; 16:14,15,40; 21:8; 1Cor. 11:22; 1Tim. 6:17; Philemon)

==Early Church Community and Commitment: the Post Biblical Period==

'''Justin martyr 100 A.D. - 165 A.D. From the "First Apology" (Defense)
'''

<blockquote>
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. (Chapt. LXV - administration of the sacraments)</blockquote>

<blockquote>
And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist = the Thanksgiving], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone... (Chapt. LXVl - of the Eucharist)
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead...(Chapt.LXVll - weekly worship of the Christians)
</blockquote>

'''Tertullian (A.D. 160 -220), Early ecclesiatical leader and writer, in his ''Apology'' (response to pagan charges) in describing the early church community (197 A.D.): '''

:We are a body knit together by one faith, one discipline and one hope. We meet together as a congregation, uniting together to offer prayer to God. We pray for the emperors and all in authority, for the welfare of the world, for peace and for the delay of the final end. We read our holy scriptures to nourish our faith, hope, steadfastness and good habits. We hear exhortations and rebukes. We take such judging very seriously – as befits those who believe they are in the sight of God – especially seriously when anyone sins so grievously we have to cut them off from our prayer, our congregation and all sacred things. Our elders preside over us, obtaining that honor not by money, but by their established character. There is no buying and selling in the things of God. Though we have a fund, but not because people can buy religion. Once a month, anyone who wants to makes a small donation – but only he who is able and willing; there is no compulsion. It is not spent on feasts, but to support and bury poor people, to provide for orphans, the elderly old persons, victims of shipwreck and those in prison for their faith.<ref>Defense by Tertullian (39), Trans. Rev. S. Thelwall. Modernized, abridged and introduced by Stephen Tomkins. Edited and prepared for the web by Dan Graves.</ref>

'''Pliny the Younger, the Roman governor of Pontus & Bithynia (northern Turkey) from A.D. 111-113, reporting to emperor Trajan of Christians, whom such pagan rulers found intolerable:'''

:...in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

:... Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

:They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food.<ref>Pliny the Younger Letters, 10.96 </ref>

==Also See==
[[Image:Orthodox churches icon artwork.jpg|thumb|Orthodox Church's icon artwork.]]
'''Denominations or branches of Christianity'''
*[[Roman Catholic Church]]
*[[Orthodox Church]]
*[[Protestantism|Protestant]]
**[[Amish]]
**[[Baptist]]
**[[Church of England]] or ''Anglican Church''
**[[Episcopal Church in the United States of America]] (or ''Episcopal Church'' or ''Episcopalians'') (Non-UK branch of the Anglican Church)
**[[Evangelical Christianity]]
**[[Fundamentalism]]
**[[Liberal Christianity]]
**[[Lutheran]]
**[[Mennonite]]
**[[Methodist]]
**[[Pentecostal]]
**[[Plymouth Brethren]]
**[[Presbyterian]]
**[[Seventh-day Adventist]]

'''Disputed'''
*[[Christian Science]]

'''Other articles'''
*[[Aramaic Church]]
*[[Cathedral]]
*[[Catholicism]]
*[[Christian apologetics]] (Defense of Christianity)
*[[Christianity and Science]]
*[[Church]]
*[[Conservative Christianity]]
*[[Eucharist]]
*[[Evangelical Apostolic Church of North America (Syro-Chaldean)]]
*[[Gospel reading in the Church: the Turgama]]
*[[Inspiration of Holy Scripture: An Eastern Christian and Jewish Perspective]]
*[[Jesus Christ]]
*[[Judaism]]
*[[Messiah]]
*[[New Testament understanding through the Jewish perspective]]
*[[Passover Seder]]
*[[Persecution of Christians]]
*[[Red-letter Christian]]
*[[Sign of the Cross]]
*[[Essay: The Way of Salvation]]
*[[Gates of Hell]]
*[[Anti Abortion activism: a personal essay]]

==Further reading==
===Encyclopedias===
* Bodensieck, Julius, ed. ''The Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church,'' (3 vol 1965), ECLS perspective
* Brauer, Jerald C. ''The Westminster Dictionary of Church History'' (1971), 880pp
* [http://newadvent.org/cathen/index.html ''The Catholic Encyyclopedia'' (1907-1913)], old but highly detailed and online
** '' New Catholic Encyclopedia'', edited by the Catholic University of America, 17 vol. 1967-1979.
*Cross, F. L., and E. A. Livingstone, eds. ''The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church'' (3rd ed. 1997), 1840pp; [http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Dictionary-Christian-Church/dp/0192802909/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b excerpt and text search]; online at [[OUP]]
* Elwell, Walter A., ed. ''Evangelical Dictionary of Theology‎'' (2001) 1312 pages; articles by over 200 Evangelical or Fundamentalist scholars
*Hastings, Adrian et al. eds. ''The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought'' (2000) 808pp; 600 articles by 260 Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox scholars; [http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0198600240/ref=sib_dp_pt/105-4292297-2766841#reader-link excerpt and text search]; online at [[OUP]]
*''New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge'' (1911), ), major sources of older scholarly articles; mainline Protestant perspective
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc01.toc.html Vol. 1: Aachen - Basilians]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc02.toc.html Vol. 2: Basilica - Chambers]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc03.toc.html Vol. 3: Chamier - Draendorf]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc04.toc.html Vol. 4: Draeseke - Goa]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc05.toc.html Vol. 5: Goar - Innocent]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc06.toc.html Vol. 6: Innocents - Liudger]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc07.toc.html Vol. 7: Liutprand - Moralities]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc08.toc.html Vol. 8: Morality - Petersen]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc09.toc.html Vol. 9: Petri - Reuchlin]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc10.toc.html Vol. 10: Reutsch - Son]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc11.toc.html Vol. 11: Son of Man - Tremellius]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc12.toc.html Vol. 12: Trench - Zwingli]
**[http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc13.toc.html Vol. 13: Index]

===Histories===
*Briggs, J. H. Y., Robert D. Linder, and David F. Wright. ''Introduction to the History of Christianity: First Century to the Present Day'' (2006) [http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-History-Christianity-Century-Present/dp/0800638123/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200823548&sr=8-4 excerpt and text search]
*Gonzalez, Justo L. '' A History of Christian Thought: Volume 1: From the Beginnings to the Council of Chalcedon'' (2nd ed. 1987); [http://www.amazon.com/History-Christian-Thought-Beginnings-Chalcedon/dp/0687171822/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200823941&sr=8-1 excerpt and text search vol 1]; ''A History of Christian Thought: Volume 2: From Augustine to the Eve of the Reformation'' (2nd ed. 1987) [http://www.amazon.com/History-Christian-Thought-Augustine-Reformation/dp/0687171830/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200823941&sr=8-3 excerpt and text search vol 2]; ''A History of Christian Thought: Volume 3: From the Protestant Reformation to the Twentieth Century'' (1987) [http://www.amazon.com/History-Christian-Thought-Protestant-Reformation/dp/0687171849/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200808706&sr=8-12 excerpt and text search vol 3]
*Horsley, Richard A. ''Christian Origins: A People's History Of Christianity, Vol. 1'' (2006), 318pp [http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Origins-Peoples-History-Christianity/dp/080063411X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200886474&sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]
*Latourette, Kenneth Scott. ''A History of Christianity'' (2 vol 1975) [http://www.amazon.com/History-Christianity-Beginnings-1500-Revised/dp/0060649526/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200823548&sr=8-1 excerpt and text search vol 1, to 1500], by leading Baptist scholar
*Latourette, Kenneth Scott. ''A history of the expansion of Christianity'' (7 vol 1939-1970), monumental history of missionary work worldwide
*MacCulloch, Diarmaid. ''The Reformation'' (2005), influential recent survey [http://www.amazon.com/Reformation-Diarmaid-MacCulloch/dp/014303538X/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200808706&sr=8-2 excerpt and text search]
*McGonigle, Thomas D., and James F. Quigley. ''A history of the Christian Tradition: From Its Jewish Orgins to the Reformation'' (1988); ''A History of the Christian Tradition, Vol. II: From the Reformation to the Present'' (1996) [http://www.amazon.com/History-Christian-Tradition-Vol-Reformation/dp/0809136481/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200808706&sr=8-15 excerpt and text search vol 2]
*Pelikan, Jaroslav. ''Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine'' (5 vol 1975-91) [http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Doctrine-Medieval/dp/0226653757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201083460&sr=8-1 excerpt and text search v. 3, 600 AD -1300]]; [http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Reformation-1300-1700/dp/0226653773/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201083460&sr=8-4 excerpt and text search vol 4, 1300-1700]; [http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-History-Development-Doctrine/dp/0226653803/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201083460&sr=8-3 excerpt and text search vol 5, 1700-present] This is the standard history of Christian doctrine.
*Ward, Keith. ''Christianity: A Beginner's Guide'' (2008), 195pp

===United States===
* Ahlstrom, Sydney E. ''A religious history of the American people‎'' (1979) 1192 pages; classic history from broad perspective [http://books.google.com/books?id=5kFF6a1viGcC&dq=inauthor:ahlstrom&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=30&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES excerpt and text search]
* Balmer, Randall. ''Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism'' (2nd ed. 2004), 655pp [http://www.questia.com/library/book/encyclopedia-of-evangelicalism-by-randall-balmer.jsp ''Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism'' online edition]
* Lippy, Charles H. and Peter W. Williams, eds. ''Encyclopedia of the American religious experience: studies of traditions and movements'' (3 vol 1988) 1872 pages; standard reference work; long essays by scholars
* Noll, Mark A. '' A history of Christianity in the United States and Canada‎'' (1992), by leading Evangelical historian [http://books.google.com/books?id=VGF3wbzzy9QC&dq=intitle:christianity+inauthor:noll&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=30&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES excerpt and text search]
* Queen, Edward L. et al, eds. Encyclopedia of American Religious History'' (3rd ed. 2 vol. 2009) 1200pp
* Reid, Daniel G. et al. eds., ''Dictionary of Christianity in America'' (199)
* Wooley, Davis C. ed. '' Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists‎'' (5 vol 1958-19820; 2565 pages

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==External Links==
*[http://www.aim.org/wls/category/christians/ What Liberals Say - Category: Christians], [[Accuracy In Media]]
*[http://www.christian.com Christian] Social Network
[[Category:Christianity| ]]
[[Category:Worldviews]]
[[Category:Featured articles]]

Debate:Who created God?

2010-06-22T19:07:17Z

KenJ:

If there exist a God/superior being who created this being. When I ask this question I get " God created himself". How is this logical?-Ros

Why is it necessary for God to have been created? God could always have existed. [[User:jdstarrett|jdstarrett]]

:I'm sure Philip will get involved here—and believe you me, he is far more qualified to answer this question—but I'm going to take a stab at it. The problem that most can't get past is the notion that God "is, was, and ever shall be," the alpha and omega, so on and so forth. God supersedes time; he in fact ''created'' time according to the Judeo-Christian theology. There was no past before God/YHWH. Nothing needed to come before him, because he is the source of all things, including time itself. It gets complicated there because it's hard to imagine a universe without time; though technically, there wasn't a universe at all until he created it (once again, according to Judeo-Christian theology or at least my best knowledge of it). I'm going to let Philip chime in here and correct any mistakes I've made, and maybe give you a bit more concise explanation as I'm sure he—or one of the many others here—have come across this question far more often than I have. [[User:JLauttamus|Jeffrey W. Lauttamus]][[User_talk:JLauttamus|<sub>Discussion</sub>]] 12:00, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Typical Darwin lover know-it-all question. Ok smart guy, tell me where space ends and I will tell you who created God.-- [[Image:50 star flag.png|14px]] [[User:Jpatt|jp]] 12:12, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

: Okay, Jeffrey W. Lauttamus invited me here to comment, so here I am. God is an uncreated being, so it is nothing more than a nonsense question to ask who created an uncreated being.
: That likely then raises the question about how He could be uncreated, to which there are at least two replies:
:* As Jeffrey explained, God exists outside of time. He created time; He is not subject to it. A beginning implies a point in time, but as God is outside of it, that He had a beginning doesn't follow.
:* ''Something'' (or someone) ''must be'' eternal. If it's not God, it might be this universe. But science now has good reason to think that the universe is not eternal, which begs the question of who or what created the universe. (And the universe, by the way, is known as the space/time continuum; time itself began with the universe.) Ultimately, as you go back, the only option left is something or someone that is eternal. And as the laws of physics don't allow for something physical to be eternal, then that something/someone must be non-physical, or spiritual.
: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:25, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Ok... That makes since. We cannot bound God to logic because he created it. Thanks for clearing that up.-Ros

: Huh? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:45, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

This is an interesting subject. One of the most common argument's for God's existence is some form of the 'watchmaker' analogy - I.E. that the existence of the universe implies that it was created & therefore the existence of a creator (God). Does the existence of God also imply that He was created? And if not, why not? [[User:Sideways|Sideways]] 10:04, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
: The watchmaker analogy is referring to something that was obviously designed because of it's complexity of multiple interacting parts that would not occur naturally. God is not a complexity of multiple interacting parts, so the same argument does not apply to him. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:09, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
::There are many examples of complex interacting ecosystems occurring naturally. But of course the watchmaker analogy would suggest that these are in fact created. That is the problem with the waychmaker argument - it suggest that what seems to occur naturally actually doesn't occur naturally. It cannot be disproved, but it only proves itself if it assumes itself to be true. [[User:Sideways|Sideways]] 10:21, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
::: No, it's not a circular argument at all. It is arguing from what we observe (that complex things such as watches and other machinery do not occur without a designer) to what we don't observe (the origin of living things). That sort of deduction is perfectly valid, even if not absolute proof. And we are talking about the ''origin'' of living things, so I dispute that they do "seem" to occur naturally. Being unobserved, they don't "seem" anything. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:28, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

::::See my problem is that I don't understand why something or someone "must be" eternal. Why could the universe have not 'just happened'? Sure it might be unlikely but maybe it isn't. I just don't see the need for God in a logical argument about the existence of anything. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 10:47, 29 September 2008 (AEST)
::::: See my problem is that I don't understand how something could have 'just happened' out of absolutely nothing. If you want to fantasize that absolutely nothing can become something for no reason, then I can't stop you, but that is the realm of fantasy and blind faith, whereas I prefer to stick to reason and observation (we ''observe'' that everything that happens has a cause). That something must be eternal is a deduction from that. The logic for God is that this physical universe must have had a beginning, all events have a cause, the cause of all of physical reality must be something non-physical (i.e. supernatural), therefore there must be a God. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:21, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

::::::Haha oh how I have missed debating against you. OK. Well I don't quite see it as that. I don't think that something can come from absolutely nothing either. But I cannot postulate a God to solve that problem because God himself is complex. Certainly we cannot see or examine him to prove how complex he is physically. But an omniscient, omnipotent being that created the entire universe and life itself? That cannot be anything BUT complex. And something that complex has to have a starting point because only something simple, incredibly simple can come about by chance. Something like a singularity. Note that I'm not saying that the Big Band did come around by chance, only that it is far more likely then God coming about by chance. I admit that this is not as scientific or provable as I would like it to be, it does involve some blind faith, however I think that you're position involves more blind faith then mine.
::::::I do take issue with your assertion that "the cause of all of physical reality must be something non-physical (i.e. supernatural)". Why do you say that? I cannot see how you reached that conclusion. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 22:49, 29 September 2008 (AEST)

::::::: God is not complex: He is not composed of parts. See an [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Extraterrestrial_life&diff=504256&oldid=504017 earlier post] of mine.
::::::: If the cause of all physical reality was something physical, then something physical must have existed before something physical existed. This is an impossibility, so the only option left is that the cause of all physical reality must be something ''non''-physical.
::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:17, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
Actually thats the only option the bible leaves open, just because its the only possiblitiy you believe in doesn't mean its the truth. Logiclly there is no 'truth' nothing can ever really proven to be 'right' only that it cannot be proven wrong. Its why everything is considered a 'theory' including my claim i just made. You simply leave out the fact that you have absolutely no proof whatsoever that the universe can be of something that can rationally be explained without help of a greater being. Your saying that we cannot examine the thing that started the universe, and yet somehow you were able to magically understand that it created the universe. Before you can claim something you need to prove it. Just because some people are ignorant and dont understand the thinkings of logic and reason doesn't mean everyone will, your claim only pulls us further into the question of what created the non-physical then? What is the non-physical? If it doesn't consist of atoms than what does it consist of? how did this nothingness create something? [[User:ChillinBM]]

:I might not have put it as bluntly as Chillin did, but he's certainly made a clear point. For me, the claim that God is not complex seems to be supportless other then by continuous assertion that it is the case. All I have seen is "God is not complex. Why? Because we can't understand him." and maybe I have missed an important point.
:You're argument there is one of infinite regress and there is a problem with that. Just because you seem to have an infinite regress does not mean that you need invoke something supernatural as a terminator. For example, it was long wondered what would happen if you cut iron into the smallest possible pieces, and then cut it in half again. Surely, by logic, you could continue to halve the pieces infinately. In fact, the once you reach a single atom of iron, the regress has a natural terminator, if you cut the atom in half, whatever is left is no longer iron, it is some other element. I do not know what natural terminator solves the cause and effect regress however I feel justified in not assuming a supernatural terminator for this regress. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 8:34, 1 October 2008 (AEST)

::No, ChillnBM, it is not the Bible that leaves only that option, but logic. But perhaps I was remiss in not explaining myself properly. I was working on the basis that there is the ''natural'' (or physical) and the ''supernatural'' (or non-physical). That is, ''physical'' and ''non-physical'' are, between them, all-encompassing. There can be nothing that is neither physical nor non-physical. So having eliminated one, you are left with the other.
:: If "logically there is no truth", then that statement itself is not true. So logically, there ''must'' be "truth". What you are getting confused with is ''scientific proof''. In that you are correct; science can only ''disprove'', it can't ''prove''. But that's different to ''truth'', which ''must'' exist. See also sections 1 and 2 of my [[essay: Accuracy vs. neutrality on Conservapedia]].
:: I can't prove ''scientifically'' that God exists, but I can prove it ''logically'' by eliminating the alternatives. Science has eliminated an eternal universe, which means that the universe had a beginning, but has not explained (and cannot explain) what caused the universe to begin. Logically, the beginning of the universe (all of physical reality) must have a non-physical (i.e. supernatural) cause.
:: We know that the ''physical'' must have had a beginning, but we don't know that the ''supernatural'' must have had a beginning, so there is no necessity to explain how the supernatural began. Furthermore, science also shows that ''time'' is an integral part of the universe, so without the universe, i.e. in the realm of that deduced supernatural, ''time'' does not exist. Which means that talking about a ''beginning'' for the supernatural is a bit of nonsense anyway.
:: Deducing that ''something'' supernatural must have created the universe is not at all contradictory to saying that science can't ''study'' the supernatural, so there's no "magic" involved.
:: "''Before you can claim something you need to prove it.''": And yet you didn't bother to prove that claim before you made it. Or prove it afterwards either. Furthermore, you yourself said that things ''can't'' be proved.
:: I don't have to explain every point of something in order to claim the basic point. That is, I can legitimately claim that there must be a supernatural creator without having to explain what He is made of or how He created. And by the way, your final question was a loaded one, referring to the supernatural as "nothingness". Being non-physical doesn't mean that it is "nothingness". In fact, it is ''you'' who has this problem. If you discount God (the supernatural), then you are left with the Big Bang, which is ''nothing'' exploding and becoming everything. So I ask ''you'', "how did this nothingness create something?".

:: Bolly, the quote that I linked to was not just "continuous assertion", and neither was it "because we can't understand him". Admittedly that quote didn't go into much detail, but it indicated that there's been plenty of study of this matter (and ''study'' implies something more than "continuous assertion" or "because we can't understand him") and it also briefly explained some of the rationale.
:: Your "satisfaction" in not assuming a supernatural terminator seems mere wishful thinking, given that you've found a ''different'' infinite regress case that didn't need one. That's not a solid argument at all.
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:25, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

:::I do not find that rationale convincing at all, and I still feel that it has little substance. From what I can understand, you outline the reasons why people like me think that God must be complex and they seem to me to be fairly convincing. In return you seem to say "how do you know that he cannot be complex?". Which is true, i don't 'know' that, however it is no real argument, simply a statement.
:::It's not wishful thinking to posit a natural terminator when there are situations in which a former infite regress is shown to have a natural terminator. I agree that it is not a perfect analogy, and certainly not 'proof'. But I would argue that it is a lot more simple and more likely considering that the evidence for any form of supernatural activity, being or event seems to be very limited. So while we 'know' that natural things can exist, we cannot have the same certainty about anything supernatural. I apologise if my argument is not concise but I think you can understand where I am coming from. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 22:06, 1 October 2008 (AEST)

:::: Is the evidence for the supernatural really that limited? Or is it just that you choose to not believe it? Or haven't looked for it? What sort of evidence would you expect? Even apart from the origin of the universe, there is the matter of the origin of life, and the incredible design and information evident in it. We know from observation that design requires a designer, and information requires an intelligence. We have no viable naturalistic explanation for the origin of life. I would consider that to be evidence for the supernatural. Then there is historical documentary evidence, i.e. the Bible. It records various supernatural events. True, one cannot ''scientifically'' test those claims, but one ''can'' look at the source of those claims and conclude that the source is a very reliable one. So again, that becomes ''evidence'' (albeit not scientific proof) of supernatural activity. So I reject your claim that there is very limited evidence. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:58, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

:::::I think it is. No, because although you might laugh at this claim, I have an open mind. If the evidence is there I am more then willing to look at it, examine it, and then accept it if it's satisfactory. Ah, the design = designer argument. You are correct that 'design' requires a designer, however it can be easy to mistake complexity for design. I don't think they're the same thing. I think evolution more the adequately explains the complexity of life. Leaving that aside, you are correct that the beginning of the universe and the origin of life are two events that we have almost no knowledge of, or evidence based theory for. However lack of a naturalistic explanation does not automatically mean that it must have been supernatural. And the bible. While I don't wish to start this argument again because it stalemates so easily and neither of us achieves anything, I do not accept the bible as anything more then a collection of anecdotes with some small historical accuracy, that only comes from an event that is recorded several generations after its occurence. That's not to say that the bible is worthless, only that you cannot use it on its own to support supernaturalism. For example, some conspiracy theorist whos name sounded dutch but I cannot remember it, claimed that the story of Sodom was actually about an alien civilisation nuking the city. Ridiculous? Almost certainly, but his "theory" almost perfectly explained the origin of that bible story. I'm definately not saying that he was correct, just that the bible can prove a lot of things if you want it to. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 9:52, 2 October 2008 (AEST)

:::::: Almost everybody thinks that they have an open mind, so thinking it is not much in the way of evidence.
:::::: Is it truly easy to mistake complexity for design? What complexity do you know of that wasn't designed? Of course, if you mention ''life'', you are begging the question, and evolution ''can't'' explain it.
:::::: The origins of the universe and of life are not simply things for which there is a "lack of a naturalistic explanation", but for which the naturalistic explanation is ''against''. For example, experiments, such as Stanley and Miller’s(?), show that life ''could not'' occur naturally. I'm not saying that such experiments rule out all possible explanations; rather, I'm saying that the experiments not only did not support naturalistic origins of life, but also provided reasons ''against'' a naturalistic explanation. To provide an example of that example, life requires optically-pure amino acids, whereas their experiment produced a mixture of left- and right-handed amino acids. That is, their experiments produced a ''problem'' for naturalistic explanations to explain. In summary, the available evidence is not simply ''missing'', but ''opposed'' to a naturalistic explanations.
:::::: The Bible has far more than just "small historical accuracy", and most of it is eye-witness accounts, not "recorded several generations after its occurence".
:::::: Are you thinking of Von Daniken? Without knowing his "explanation", I can't comment much, but most explanations I’ve seen of biblical events simply ignore large parts of what the Bible actually says. A good example is the claim that the flooding of the Black Sea is the origin of the Bible's flood account.[http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3392]
:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:01, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

(unindent) You are right of course, but I still like to think so!

I think it is. You're correct that if I say 'life' it does beg the question but what about something like the water cycle? You know, evaporation over the sea, condensations in the clouds, precipitation over land or sea and it all starts again. Sure its not really complex but many tribes and civilisations over the years have worshipped a rain god or something like that. I already know that you're objection to evolution is that you think that mutations destroy genetic information. I fail to understand how you can think this when, while mutations will often destroy some information it instantle 'creates' new information. If GVA mutates to GHA, then the V has been destroyed and the H has been created. Massive, massive oversimplification I know but I still think it shows my point.

I agree that Stanley and Miller's (I think thats right) experiment did not support a naturalistic explanation however I think you overestimate the magnitude of the 'problems' it places in front of it. Life ''as we know it'' requires optically-pure amino acids, but that may be only because life very quickly evolved to be able to produce its own pure amino acids and thus no longer needed to rely on impure, left and right handed, amino acids. Over time we lost the ability to use these impure acids. Look I know that may sound far-fetched but it didn't take much effort to show that their experiment really simply failed to provide any evidence either way.

Von Daniken! Thats him! Thankyou, yes I love that guys writing, sure it's probably all completely wrong, but its great fun to read. No, because, if I remember correctly, his explanation actually didn't ignore anything that the bible said about the story. It explained everything I think, like why Lot's wife became a pillar of salt, and why the angel hurried them out of the city, and why that city was chosen to be nuked or something. And while I definately don't believe any of it is true, it has just as much evidence to support it as the bibles version of events does which casts some doubt onto the Bible's claim to historical accuracy. As for Noah's ark, I still think it has something to do with the end of the last ice age or something like that. I can't prove it, I know. But most civilisations have different flood myths, and you'd think they'd all have the same if a worldwide complete flooding had happened and everyone on earth was descended from Moses. By the way, minor unimportant question, If Adam and Eve had two sons, one of whom killed the other, how did Cain have children? Sorry, it's just kinda bothered me ever since I heard that story... [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 07:12, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

: Yeah, I like to think I'm open-minded too, but I know plenty would disagree with that!
: Your example of the water cycle fails because, like life, you haven't shown that it ''did'' occur naturally (without design). I could also object on another ground, but that would be tantamount to defining complexity as something that can't occur naturally, which is a valid argument, but perhaps I won't use it right now.
: Your mutation example (also) fails because of a misunderstanding of what "information" is. [[Information]] is something that conveys ''meaning''. Words are information. So if you "mutate" "my name is Philip" to "my nsme is Philip", what new ''information'' is created? None. Rather, the information has been ''damaged'' (if not destroyed) (ignoring that our brains are smart enough to figure out what must have been intended). (And by the way, I created that mutation by "chance", by closing my eyes, cursoring back a few characters, and randomly pressing a key. I possibly ''could have'' created new information if I had ''intelligently designed'' the "mutation".) It is false to say that any change constitutes new information.
: Regarding Stanley and Miller's experiment, I already acknowledged that it doesn't rule out all possible explanations. But the point is that it is positive ''evidence'' opposed to the naturalistic position. Yes, perhaps it only rules out life ''as we know it'', but then it is this ''life that we know'' that we are talking about. It's an interesting characteristic of believers in naturalism that they claim to be scientific, but when scientific evidence is presented that opposes their ideas, they resort to ''ad hoc'' speculation to explain away the evidence. So, it's inaccurate to say that the experiment failed to produce any evidence either way. It didn't absolutely ''prove'' anything (and "scientific proof' is an oxymoron anyway), but it did produce ''evidence'' against a naturalistic explanation.
: Forgive me for being sceptical, but I don't give your claim that "his explanation actually didn't ignore anything that the bible said" much credibility when it is clear that your knowledge of the biblical account is somewhat lacking. See the following comments.
: As for Noah's flood, you wouldn't expect all the stories to be identical, as stories that are retold and retold verbally tend to change, often inadvertently, but sometimes deliberately (parents telling children using locations, creatures, etc. that they are familiar with rather than having to explain unfamiliar concepts). But it's still the case that there is a lot of similarity; too much to explain other than with a common origin. See [[Great Flood]] for more on this. And everybody on Earth is descended from ''Noah'', not Moses.
: The Bible records that after Cain killed Abel, they had another son, named Seth. So there's three sons, not two. Further, it also says that they had "other sons and daughters", so there's a lot more (Jewish tradition is two or three dozen of each, I believe), including potential wives for Cain. (How did he have children? The same way everyone else does: The Bible says that "Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant".) Now that may well raise another question in your mind, in which case I recommend that you read [http://creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter8.pdf this].
: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:15, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

::Don't know about open-minded, but I see you as a decent person, and what more can you do?
::True. Very true. I'm making assumptions. Well in that case I ask, what do you need for me to prove, as much as is possible, that it is indeed not designed. For example I can point to a water molecule and show that its properties allow it to exist easily as a liquid and a lighter than air gas. Hydrogen bonding and so on, gravity causing it to fall and so on. Also I can talk about Mars, and how it has been discovered that it snows there, which is part of the water cycle, and thus say that if it had been designed for Earth, why does it also work on Mars? Yet I'm not sure if this will satisfy you.
::Again, true. I apologise for misrepresenting your argument. You are right, however genetic information doesn't work like that either. Because genetic information creates proteins, a mutation of that gene could result in a protein with differing properties. Mostly these probably make little difference, however sometimes the difference is significant, or it is a significant difference (I didn't just repeat myself, I did reread it to check) and so it has an affect on the organism. You know that, or at least some of it and you don't believe the rest. So changing the information isn't the same as changing a letter in a sentence. It's more like changing an ingredient or an instruction in a recipe. It changes the taste, or the appearance (yeast in bread) but it is still relevant and the cake, or the bread, or the animal is different. Sometimes worse, sometimes better.
::Yeh I did kinda start postulating. Alright, I admit defeat on that one, Stanley and Miller's experiment did provide some evidence against a naturalistic explanation for the creation of life. I still believe that a naturalistic explanation is the best one, but I cannot argue against you here.
::Touche. Noah, not Moses. I apologise, that wasn't a mistake based on lack of knowledge or familiarity, but rather an honest slip. A stupid, honest slip. So I don't blame you. But I maintain that Von Danikin's story, myth, etc, was just as well supported by the Bible's evidence as the Christian story is. If you don't believe me, then don't, it doesn't bother me because I don't actually subscribe to Von Danikin's beliefs. But if you ever have the time to read his books, I do recomend them as they are great fun.
::Yes they wouldn't be identical, but I would at least expect them all to mention an ark, and remember the name 'Moses' as their ancestor and so on. I think the differences in the stories are far to great to allow for a single event, rather they point to a rise of sea levels or something similar that occurred around the world and affected a variety of peoples.
::Ok thanks, I read the link, that explains it. Well not the whole link, but it answered my questions anyway. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 09:50, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

::Further experiments similar to the Urey-Miller experiments have been performed since then. Perhaps it's best to start with those, /recent/ studies than couching an entire argument in an experiment that we know today was not without flaws. It may also be best not to take out of context what the experiment meant to prove; that the building blocks of life could be created under circumstances (then) believed to be similar to those of ancient Earth. In this regard they were right; all that comes after is beyond the scope of the study in question.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:12, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

If you would like to play the logic game, heres a fun point of view. And your logic is still flawed.

1. The Creation of the universe is the most marvellous achievement imaginable.

2. The merit of an achievement is the product of its intrinsic quality and the ability of its creator.

3. The greater the disability of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.

4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.

5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existing creator we can conceive a greater being - namely one who created everything while not existing.

6 An existing God therefore would not be a being greater than which a greater cannot be conceived because an even more formidable and incredible creator would be a God which did not exist.

7. God does not exist.

Just to clear some things up, Nothing can be considered to be PROVEN in the term that a theory is only true until it is proven wrong. People like to say that things such as the big bang theory and evolution aren't true because they are just a theory. When in actuality, everything is a theory. Secondly you didn't seem to have read my other point, i said it can't be proven right, but also it continues to work until it is proven WRONG. In which case, you haven't proven my theory wrong, you pointed out that i dont have evidence, but the truth is, its true until proven wrong. My claim simply says that you need evidence before you can prove another theory wrong, or to prove yours is right. My evidence, look at the whole reason for debates and the scientific process. They are meant to find information on their subject and back it up so that it is evident that what they are saying is in fact logically possible or right.

Secondly, the big bang unlike God is something that has been debated and studied by scientists who spend their lives trying to understand the origins of the universe. The 'Nothingness' inside the singularity that started the big bang, has been recorded in other places in the universe, such as black holes. Its simple, the spec where the everything was inside was so infinity dense, that in technical terms is 'nothing'.

Science cannot study the 'supernatural' because it doesn't 'exist'. You claim that you cannot study god, and yet SOMEHOW the people that wrote the bible understood him? And Adam and Eve?

With your logic there we can say that since science cannot examine my imagination, im imagining that the world is a giant pillow. Since you can't go into my imagination and specifically EXAMINE the aspects of my realm, you cannot prove that its not real, therefore the world is but one giant pillow.

[[User:ChillinBM]]

:Haha I like that logic, although its not very hard for a creationist to dismiss. I think though, despite the fact that I agree with you Chillin, you are more likely to get your point across if you put it a bit less aggressively. Christians are humans too! In all seriousness though, a debate is a lot more enjoyable if everyone is courteous despite disagreements. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 22:30, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

== Break to assist editing ==

To '''Bolly''':

How can you prove that the water cycle is not designed? You can't, because you were not there when it began, and neither do you know of anybody who was (except God, but we're ignoring him for this exercise). What you need to do is to find an example where its origin ''was'' observed, so that there is documentation of just how it came about. Now don't even think of claiming that there are no examples of complex things forming without anybody being there to observe them, because there are plenty being formed all the time, such as machines, books (the arrangement of letters is complex), and so on. Yeah, okay, they are things that humans have created, so they don't count as being undesigned—''but that's the point: all the examples we '''know''' of were designed''!

The difference between English (for example) words and genetic information doesn't change things. I'll explain. In English, words can be any (reasonable) length, and not all combinations of letters are used. This is unlike DNA where each "word" is three characters, and all 64 combinations are used. However, this is not the whole story. In English, it's not just the letters that have to be right, but the words, sentences, and paragraphs. Just suppose that every possible "mutation" of an English word produced another English word. That "mutated" word will still not make sense in the sentence. Similarly with DNA. A mutation will form another "word" (rather than nonsense), which will equate to a particular amino acid, but will the resulting protein make sense? Or the molecule which incorporates that protein? No. So you haven't really solved the problem.

Some changes are indeed like changing an ingredient in a recipe. The genes for recognising smells and viruses work this way I believe. But that's because the recipe for the fruit cake can accept any fruit. It can't accept rat poison being substituted for raisins, for example.

As for mentioning Moses when Noah was meant, I can understand and accept a simple mistake (and that's one that many make). (But then you made the ''same'' mistake in your reply!) However, it wasn't just that simple mistake, but ''also'' the mistake of claiming that Adam and Eve only had two sons. One simple mistake—a simple slip. Two mistakes, with one being more than just the wrong name—I question your familiarity.

I think that you expect too much in what you would expect the flood legends to include, and especially if you think that they would have the same words for them. The word "ark", from memory, basically means "box". The Greek account on the [[Great Flood]] page refers to a "chest". Is that really any different, when you allow for different languages, cultures, and etc.? And the Hawaiian account has "Nuu" in place of "Noah". That could easily be a version of the same name. And by the way, that page only has a small sampling of the similarities. Yet even so, there are some parallels that I consider remarkable. Why would independently-invented flood stories have a bird being sent out to see if the flood had subsided? That doesn't even seem to make that much sense, except in the case of Noah's Ark which may not have offered a view of the surroundings. Yet a number of stories have it. One of the birds that Noah sent out was a dove, and at least one of the other accounts specifically has a dove. And why the promise of the rainbow? It's understandable that a rainbow might be associated with a flood story, and even that the rainbow might be a ''reminder'' of the flood. But why would the rainbow be a sign that a similar flood would not happen again, per the Australian aboriginal account quoted?

To '''Jirby''':

Do any of those more recent studies actually show anything more substantial? And in one point you are right: the experiments were done assuming certain conditions then believed to be the case on ancient Earth. Specifically, they assumed an oxygen-free atmosphere, because that was the belief, because an atmosphere containing oxygen would have destroyed the molecules being formed. But the view now is that the atmosphere had oxygen, which means that the experiment showed that they wouldn't get the right amino acids ''even assuming an atmosphere more favourable than would have existed''.

To '''ChillinBM''':

As Bolly says, your logic is easy to dismiss. Points 5 and 6 are pure nonsense, and even if true, point 7 doesn't follow from the previous points.

A theory is not "true" until it is proven wrong. It cannot (correctly) be proven wrong unless it ''is'' wrong, in which case it could not have also been ''true''. And no, not ''everything'' is a theory. Some things are merely hypotheses, and some things are fact (such as my name being Philip).

Yes, some people do like to say that evolution is "just a theory", but this argument ''is specifically rejected by leading creationists''[http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/2996/84/#just_theory] (and I hope Ajkgordon will bother to clarify his misleading claims in that regard).

God has also been debated and studied by many people, including scientists, so the Big Bang is not "unlike God" in that respect at all.

Black holes are not "nothingness"; they are ''something''. Note in the following view from Big Bang expert (he invented one of the Big Bang versions) Alan Guth it does not say that stuff came from black holes or anything similar, but from "absolutely nothing":
{{QuoteBox|The universe burst into something from absolutely nothing—zero, nada. And as it got bigger, it became filled with even more stuff that came from absolutely nowhere.[http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/2507]}}

Science cannot study the supernatural because the scientific method and its tools are only capable of studying ''physical'' stuff; not because the supernatural doesn't exist. I didn't say that you cannot study God. I said that ''science'' can't study God. But science is not the only way to learn things. We can study God because He has told us much about Himself, and because He came to Earth in human form 2000 years ago, and in other similar ways. And Adam and Eve, who had freshly-created brains without any flaws, knew Him personally.

Your last paragraph is illogical, and not the same logic I'm using. There are two flaws, if I understand you correctly. First, you seem to be arguing that because I can't examine ''your imagination'', therefore I can't examine ''the world'' to see if your imagination is providing correct information. This is nonsense. Second, not being able to prove that something is not real doesn't mean that it ''is'' real. I'm not claiming that God is real simply because you can't prove He's not. If that's what you think, you've read your own preconceptions into what I said.

[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:27, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

:Im sorry if i came out...hastily before, i dont mean to have anybody pissed off...well unless i dont like them of course, lol :D.
Anyway...you can't prove that the supernatural ect. Cannot be understood, because if it cannot be examined, obviously, it doesn't have any way to reach us. In which case, it doesn't affect us.

:Steps 6 and 7 are very simple.

:- God is the most powerful being, so he had to have had the greatest handicap in the creating of the universe, because if not, there is something that is more powerful than that.

:- If god existed while creating the universe, then he didn't make the most impossible achievement, because the greatest would have been creating the universe from non-existence.

:- God doesn't exist.

:Another simple point i'd like to make. Claiming that science cannot examine something makes no logical sense at all. Even if science couldn't examine something, there would be adequate debates on how the topic couldn't be studied and why it cannot. In which case, there is no EVIDENCE whatsoever that it exists. If you would like to argue about this, please try it at [http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58941] Though i myself like to debate against such things, im not as far in the subject as most of the people on the forum.

:Anyway, im sorry about the theory thing, i was just paraphrasing and basing off what i can remember, im not exact, and im not very far in the studies of science or theology, though im still doing what i can to study both.

:[[User:ChillinBM]]

:: "''Anyway...you can't prove that the supernatural ect. Cannot be understood..''": I don't claim that the supernatural can't be understood, so I don't have to prove it.
:: "''...if it cannot be examined...''": But it ''can'' be examined, if it chooses to reveal itself to us. Which God has, Christians believe.
:: "''God is the most powerful being, so he had to have had the greatest handicap in the creating of the universe, because if not, there is something that is more powerful than that.''": No, that's a non-sequitur.
:: "''...the greatest would have been creating the universe from non-existence.''": That's still simply nonsense.
:: "''Claiming that science cannot examine something makes no logical sense at all. Even if science couldn't examine something, there would be adequate debates on how the topic couldn't be studied and why it cannot.''": There is ''likely'' to be such debates (and there is in the case of the supernatural), but it's not a given that there necessarily ''will be'' such debates.
:: "''In which case, there is no EVIDENCE whatsoever that it exists.''": Huh?
:: "''If you would like to argue about this, please try it at [http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58941]''": No, ''you'' raised it, so I will debate it with ''you''.
:: "''Anyway, im sorry about the theory thing, i was just paraphrasing and basing off what i can remember, im not exact, and im not very far in the studies of science or theology, though im still doing what i can to study both.''": Then can I suggest that you ''do'' study the Christian view, instead of trying to refute something that you haven't studied enough to know what you are talking about?
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:36, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

:::Ahh! Noah/Moses! I do apologise again. That was just plain ridiculous. Maybe the very fact I got it wrong once means I was more likely to get it wrong again? I don't know. Well you don't have to believe me, and it has been a while since I did last read it, maybe I'm becoming forgetful.....maybe I have Moses on my brain. I wonder why?

:::Chillin does actually have a point though. He's using the ontological argument against itself, which, if you don't buy into that argument, is pointless.

:::The recipe analogy does work though, because a cake made from rat poison would not 'survive'. A fruit cake could indeed have chocolate substituted and it might still work and be tasty. The protein doesn't have to 'make sense' because it only has to perform a simple function, with complex results. Regardless of how it performs, or fails to perform, its task, it still has an affect on the organism. So any viable permutation of the DNA will have a 'meaning'. [[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 00:14, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

Arguing with me is fine, but i wont be able to show the evidence as well as the people on the forum i just submited as well because i do not study the topics as well as them. If you dont want to go there, its you choice, but it shows that you dont want to deal with who really knows more information. Just so you know, I study both, i've seen the christian view, went to church and christian school for my elementary years. Just doesn't seem logical to me, too many contradictions.

By the model of god put from the bible god should be omnipotent, and omniscience, there should be NOTHING that exists that can be more powerful than him. In which case, he cannot exists, because if he did exist, he wouldn't have the most power, because if something were to create the universe from a nonexistance, it would be more powerful than him.

By the way, I love your responses, quoting everything i say and put a simple 'nonsense' or 'doesn't make sense' next to it. Maybe thats how we should explain everything in the world.

Science is the simple step of anylizing anything. In this case, this 'anything' is supposedly nothing. I have a question for those who say that we cannot examine god. If it cannot be examed, how can it happen? Logically, if something is afflicted by god, god has to use something existing, or physical to alter what is happening in the physical world, in which case, non of it has been found nor detected in any manner.

And we seem to still miss the question, If god has been here from the beginning of time, who created time? Who created God? How come people can always say 'well what happend before the big bang?' but yet they cant face thier own problem of 'well what happend before god?'

:As mentioned above, there was nothing before God, for two reasons. Firstly, God is eternal. Secondly, God invented and created the timestream. "Before" refers to something that existed in the timestream before God, but God is outside of the timestream entirely, therefore this question doesn't apply to him. [[User:DavidBG|David]] <sup>[[User talk:DavidBG|Talk]]</sup> 14:21, 10 May 2010 (EDT)

== No one ==
There is no God. Life came from molecules, which evolved to make life diverse as it is today. The Big Bang was created by a singularity. Time as we perceive it could have well began after the Big Bang. The belief in the Judeo Christian God is irrational because of Judges 1:19, "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron". The Judeo Christian God is less powerful than iron chariots? Belief in any benevolent omnipotent God is irrational because if God was both benevolent and omnipotent than he would stop all suffering in the world. [[User:KenJ|KenJ]] 15:07, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

[[User:ChillinBM]]
[[Category:Conservapedia Debates]]

Ray Comfort

2010-06-22T19:03:14Z

KenJ: Mr. Comfort argued that the banana was designed so man could easily eat it and would have a good grip on it. Actually, the wild banana which came first, did not possess these traits

'''Ray Comfort''' (born December 5, 1949) is a leading [[Christian]] apologist. He has written large numbers of books on [[evolution]] and [[theology]], including ''Evolution: A Fairy Tale for Grownups'', and ''How to Know God Exists: Scientific Proof of God''. His latest book, ''You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence, But You Can't Make Him Think'' knocked [[Richard Dawkins|Richard Dawkins']] book ''The God Delusion'' off the number 1 spot in the atheism category at Amazon.com<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89453</ref>. He has also written a foreword to [[Darwin|Darwin's]] ''On the origin of species'' <ref>http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species-Anniversary-Charles-Darwin/dp/0882709194/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256938714&sr=8-2</ref> Since then, atheists have shown their deceit and narrow-mindedness by writing negative reviews of the books, even though most of them have never bought them.

==Banana Incident==
Ray Comfort once used a [[banana]] and Coca Cola can analogy to provide evidence of a Creator. Atheists [[liberal deceit|deceitfully]] edited the video to make it appear that Ray believed that the banana was proof of the existence of God. <ref>http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com Ray Comfort's Blog</ref> Since then, Ray Comfort's popularity has increased {{Citation needed|date=February 2010}}.

==References==
<references/>

==External Links==
*[http://www.livingwaters.com/ Ray Comfort's "Living Waters" website]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Comfort, Ray}}
[[category:Authors]]
[[category:Christian Apologists]]

Exodus 27-33 (Translated)

2010-06-20T23:30:07Z

KenJ: /* Chapter 30 */

==Chapter 27==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be foursquare: and the height thereof shall be three cubits.
|And you shall make an altar of shittim wood, in the shape of a square five cubits long and five cubits wide; the altar shall be three cubits high.
|
|-
|2
|And thou shalt make the horns of it upon the four corners thereof: his horns shall be of the same: and thou shalt overlay it with brass.
|And you shall make horns for it to be located at the corners, each of them identical and overlaid in brass.
|
|-
|3
|And thou shalt make his pans to receive his ashes, and his shovels, and his basons, and his fleshhooks, and his firepans: all the vessels thereof thou shalt make of brass.
|And you shall make all of its accessories in brass as well: the ash pans, the shovels, the basins, the flesh hooks, and the fire pans.
|More concise expression, describing the accessories for an altar where burnt offerings were made.
|-
|4
|And thou shalt make for it a grate of network of brass; and upon the net shalt thou make four brasen rings in the four corners thereof.
|And you shall make a grate of brass for it; and upon this lattice you shall attach four brass rings at the corners.
|
|-
|5
|And thou shalt put it under the compass of the altar beneath, that the net may be even to the midst of the altar.
|And you shall locate it under the compass of the altar, so that it is centered beneath it.
|
|-
|6
|And thou shalt make staves for the altar, staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with brass.
|And you shall make staffs for the altar, formed from shittim wood, and overlaid with brass.
|
|-
|7
|And the staves shall be put into the rings, and the staves shall be upon the two sides of the altar, to bear it.
|And the staffs shall be inserted into the rings, and located on both sides of the altar, to support it.
|
|-
|8
|Hollow with boards shalt thou make it: as it was shewed thee in the mount, so shall they make it.
|Hollow with boards shall you make it: as it was shown to you on the mountain, so shall they construct it.
|
|-
|9
|And thou shalt make the court of the tabernacle: for the south side southward there shall be hangings for the court of fine twined linen of an hundred cubits long for one side:
|And you shall make the court of the tabernacle: for the southern side and outward there shall be hangings for the court of fine twined linen, one hundred cubits long:
|
|-
|10
|And the twenty pillars thereof and their twenty sockets shall be of brass; the hooks of the pillars and their fillets shall be of silver.
|And the twenty pillars for this hanging and the twenty sockets to hold them shall be made of brass; the hooks and moldings of these pillars shall be made of silver.
|Fillets are molding, in the architectural context.
|-
|11
|And likewise for the north side in length there shall be hangings of an hundred cubits long, and his twenty pillars and their twenty sockets of brass; the hooks of the pillars and their fillets of silver.
|And likewise for the north side, there shall be hangings of one hundred cubits in length, supported by twenty pillars and sockets formed of brass, with hooks and molding made of silver.
|
|-
|12
|And for the breadth of the court on the west side shall be hangings of fifty cubits: their pillars ten, and their sockets ten.
|And for the span of the court's west side there shall be hangings of fifty cubits in length, supported by ten pillars and sockets.
|
|-
|13
|And the breadth of the court on the east side eastward shall be fifty cubits.
|And the width of the court on the east side shall be fifty cubits.
|
|-
|14
|The hangings of one side of the gate shall be fifteen cubits: their pillars three, and their sockets three.
|The hangings for one side of the gate shall be fifteen cubits long, supported by three pillars and sockets.
|
|-
|15
|And on the other side shall be hangings fifteen cubits: their pillars three, and their sockets three.
|And on the other side there shall be hangings fifteen cubits in length, supported by three pillars and sockets.
|
|-
|16
|And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: and their pillars shall be four, and their sockets four.
|And for the gate of the court there shall be a hanging twenty cubits long, made of fine linen in blue, purple, and scarlet, and covered with needlework: and it shall be supported by four pillars and sockets.
|
|-
|17
|All the pillars round about the court shall be filleted with silver; their hooks shall be of silver, and their sockets of brass.
|All the pillars surrounding the court shall have silver molding; their hooks shall be made of silver, and their sockets made of brass.
|
|-
|18
|The length of the court shall be an hundred cubits, and the breadth fifty every where, and the height five cubits of fine twined linen, and their sockets of brass.
|The length of the court shall be a hundred cubits, and the width fifty, and the height five cubits, to be covered with fine twined linen, hung from sockets of brass.
|
|-
|19
|All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof, and all the pins thereof, and all the pins of the court, shall be of brass.
|All the vessels used in service for this tabernacle, including all of the pins inside, and all pins used in the court, shall be made of brass.
|
|-
|20
|And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.
|And you shall command the children of Israel to bring you pure lamp oil pressed from olives, enough for the lamp to always remain lit.
|
|-
|21
|In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
|In the tabernacle of the congregation, before the veil which covers the ark, Aaron and his sons shall order the lamp to be lit from evening until morning before the LORD: it shall be an unending law for their descendants to follow on behalf of the children of Israel.
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 28==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
|And take under your wing your brother Aaron, along with his sons, chosen from the children of Israel, that they may serve me as priests: Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
|
|-
|2
|And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
|And you shall make holy garments for your brother Aaron, suitably ornamental for this important role.
|
|-
|3
|And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
|Take the most talented people, those who I filled with the best artistic skills, and tell them to make the garments for Aaron, so he can be my priest.
|
|-
|4
|And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
|The garmets they should make are a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a broidered coat, a mitre and a belt.
|
|-
|5
|And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
|They should be made of blue, purple and scarlet fabrics, gold and fine linen.
|
|-
|6
|And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
|The ephod should be made of all those materials, and must be artistically crafted.
|
|-
|7
|It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
|And with two shoulderpieces joined at the two edges
|
|-
|8
|And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
|The belt which holds the ephod, must form a single piece with it, and should be made of the same materials.
|
|-
|9
|And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
|Take then two onyx stones and grave on them the names of the children of Israel
|
|-
|10
|Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
|Six names in one stone, and six names in the other one, in the order in which they were conceived
|Change born to conceived, to highlight the importance of the unborn child
|-
|11
|With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
|The graving of the names in the stones will be made by a jeweller, just as if he was graving a seal. Mount then both stones in frames made of gold.
|
|-
|12
|And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
|And put them in the shoulders of the ephod, as memorials to remember the children of Israel. That way, Aaron will carry on his shoulders their names before God.
|
|-
|13
|And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
|
|I think we can omit this. Is a repetition of something already said in verse 11.
|-
|14
|And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
|Then, make two chains of pure gold, and put them around the frames
|
|-
|15
|And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
|
|
|-
|16
|Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
|
|
|-
|17
|And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
|
|
|-
|18
|And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
|
|
|-
|19
|And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
|
|
|-
|20
|And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
|
|
|-
|21
|And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
|
|
|-
|22
|And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.
|
|
|-
|23
|And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
|
|
|-
|24
|And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
|
|
|-
|25
|And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.
|
|
|-
|26
|And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is in the side of the ephod inward.
|
|
|-
|27
|And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.
|
|
|-
|28
|And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
|
|
|-
|29
|And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
|
|
|-
|30
|And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
|
|
|-
|31
|And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
|
|
|-
|32
|And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.
|
|
|-
|33
|And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:
|
|
|-
|34
|A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.
|
|
|-
|35
|And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
|
|
|-
|36
|And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
|
|
|-
|37
|And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
|
|
|-
|38
|And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
|
|
|-
|39
|And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.
|
|
|-
|40
|And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.
|
|
|-
|41
|And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
|
|
|-
|42
|And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
|
|
|-
|43
|And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 29==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office: Take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish,
|
|
|-
|2
|And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them.
|
|
|-
|3
|And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams.
|
|
|-
|4
|And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
|
|
|-
|5
|And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:
|
|
|-
|6
|And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre.
|
|
|-
|7
|Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and anoint him.
|
|
|-
|8
|And thou shalt bring his sons, and put coats upon them.
|
|
|-
|9
|And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons.
|
|
|-
|10
|And thou shalt cause a bullock to be brought before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the bullock.
|
|
|-
|11
|And thou shalt kill the bullock before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
|
|
|-
|12
|And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
|
|
|-
|13
|And thou shalt take all the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul that is above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and burn them upon the altar.
|
|
|-
|14
|But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
|
|
|-
|15
|Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.
|
|
|-
|16
|And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
|
|
|-
|17
|And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.
|
|
|-
|18
|And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|19
|And thou shalt take the other ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.
|
|
|-
|20
|Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.
|
|
|-
|21
|And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
|
|
|-
|22
|Also thou shalt take of the ram the fat and the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and the right shoulder; for it is a ram of consecration:
|
|
|-
|23
|And one loaf of bread, and one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer out of the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD:
|
|
|-
|24
|And thou shalt put all in the hands of Aaron, and in the hands of his sons; and shalt wave them for a wave offering before the LORD.
|
|
|-
|25
|And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour before the LORD: it is an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|26
|And thou shalt take the breast of the ram of Aaron's consecration, and wave it for a wave offering before the LORD: and it shall be thy part.
|
|
|-
|27
|And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:
|
|
|-
|28
|And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|29
|And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons' after him, to be anointed therein, and to be consecrated in them.
|
|
|-
|30
|And that son that is priest in his stead shall put them on seven days, when he cometh into the tabernacle of the congregation to minister in the holy place.
|
|
|-
|31
|And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place.
|
|
|-
|32
|And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
|
|
|-
|33
|And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
|
|
|-
|34
|And if ought of the flesh of the consecrations, or of the bread, remain unto the morning, then thou shalt burn the remainder with fire: it shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
|
|
|-
|35
|And thus shalt thou do unto Aaron, and to his sons, according to all things which I have commanded thee: seven days shalt thou consecrate them.
|
|
|-
|36
|And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
|
|
|-
|37
|Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
|
|
|-
|38
|Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
|
|
|-
|39
|The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
|
|
|-
|40
|And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
|
|
|-
|41
|And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|42
|This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.
|
|
|-
|43
|And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory.
|
|
|-
|44
|And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
|
|
|-
|45
|And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
|
|
|-
|46
|And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 30==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon: of shittim wood shalt thou make it.
|
|
|-
|2
|A cubit shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof; foursquare shall it be: and two cubits shall be the height thereof: the horns thereof shall be of the same.
|
|
|-
|3
|And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, the top thereof, and the sides thereof round about, and the horns thereof; and thou shalt make unto it a crown of gold round about.
|
|
|-
|4
|And two golden rings shalt thou make to it under the crown of it, by the two corners thereof, upon the two sides of it shalt thou make it; and they shall be for places for the staves to bear it withal.
|
|
|-
|5
|And thou shalt make the staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold.
|
|
|-
|6
|And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee.
|
|
|-
|7
|And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it.
|
|
|-
|8
|And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations.
|
|
|-
|9
|Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.
|
|
|-
|10
|And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|11
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|And God told Moses,
|
|-
|12
|When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
|
|
|-
|13
|This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|14
|Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|15
|The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
|
|
|-
|16
|And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
|
|
|-
|17
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|18
|Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.
|
|
|-
|19
|For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:
|
|
|-
|20
|When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
|
|
|-
|21
|So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
|
|
|-
|22
|Moreover the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|23
|Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty shekels,
|
|
|-
|24
|And of cassia five hundred shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of oil olive an hin:
|
|
|-
|25
|And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.
|
|
|-
|26
|And thou shalt anoint the tabernacle of the congregation therewith, and the ark of the testimony,
|
|
|-
|27
|And the table and all his vessels, and the candlestick and his vessels, and the altar of incense,
|
|
|-
|28
|And the altar of burnt offering with all his vessels, and the laver and his foot.
|
|
|-
|29
|And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.
|
|
|-
|30
|And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
|
|
|-
|31
|And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This shall be an holy anointing oil unto me throughout your generations.
|
|
|-
|32
|Upon man's flesh shall it not be poured, neither shall ye make any other like it, after the composition of it: it is holy, and it shall be holy unto you.
|
|
|-
|33
|Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger, shall even be cut off from his people.
|
|
|-
|34
|And the LORD said unto Moses, Take unto thee sweet spices, stacte, and onycha, and galbanum; these sweet spices with pure frankincense: of each shall there be a like weight:
|
|
|-
|35
|And thou shalt make it a perfume, a confection after the art of the apothecary, tempered together, pure and holy:
|
|
|-
|36
|And thou shalt beat some of it very small, and put of it before the testimony in the tabernacle of the congregation, where I will meet with thee: it shall be unto you most holy.
|
|
|-
|37
|And as for the perfume which thou shalt make, ye shall not make to yourselves according to the composition thereof: it shall be unto thee holy for the LORD.
|
|
|-
|38
|Whosoever shall make like unto that, to smell thereto, shall even be cut off from his people.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 31==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|2
|See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
|
|
|-
|3
|And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
|
|
|-
|4
|To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
|
|
|-
|5
|And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
|
|
|-
|6
|And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;
|
|
|-
|7
|The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle,
|
|
|-
|8
|And the table and his furniture, and the pure candlestick with all his furniture, and the altar of incense,
|
|
|-
|9
|And the altar of burnt offering with all his furniture, and the laver and his foot,
|
|
|-
|10
|And the cloths of service, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office,
|
|
|-
|11
|And the anointing oil, and sweet incense for the holy place: according to all that I have commanded thee shall they do.
|
|
|-
|12
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|13
|Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
|
|
|-
|14
|Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
|
|
|-
|15
|Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
|
|
|-
|16
|Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
|
|
|-
|17
|It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
|
|
|-
|18
|And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 32==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
|
|
|-
|2
|And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
|
|
|-
|3
|And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
|
|
|-
|4
|And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
|
|
|-
|5
|And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
|
|
|-
|6
|And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
|
|
|-
|7
|And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
|
|
|-
|8
|They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
|
|
|-
|9
|And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
|
|
|-
|10
|Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
|
|
|-
|11
|And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
|
|
|-
|12
|Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
|
|
|-
|13
|Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
|
|
|-
|14
|And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
|
|
|-
|15
|And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
|
|
|-
|16
|And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
|
|
|-
|17
|And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
|
|
|-
|18
|And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
|
|
|-
|19
|And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
|
|
|-
|20
|And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
|
|
|-
|21
|And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
|
|
|-
|22
|And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
|
|
|-
|23
|For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
|
|
|-
|24
|And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
|
|
|-
|25
|And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
|
|
|-
|26
|Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
|
|
|-
|27
|And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
|
|
|-
|28
|And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
|
|
|-
|29
|For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
|
|
|-
|30
|And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
|
|
|-
|31
|And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
|
|
|-
|32
|Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin -- ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
|
|
|-
|33
|And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
|
|
|-
|34
|Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
|
|
|-
|35
|And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 33==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
|
|
|-
|2
|And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
|
|
|-
|3
|Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.
|
|
|-
|4
|And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his ornaments.
|
|
|-
|5
|For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
|
|
|-
|6
|And the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount Horeb.
|
|
|-
|7
|And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.
|
|
|-
|8
|And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle.
|
|
|-
|9
|And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.
|
|
|-
|10
|And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.
|
|
|-
|11
|And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
|
|
|-
|12
|And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
|
|
|-
|13
|Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
|
|
|-
|14
|And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
|
|
|-
|15
|And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
|
|
|-
|16
|For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
|
|
|-
|17
|And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
|
|
|-
|18
|And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
|
|
|-
|19
|And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
|
|
|-
|20
|And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
|
|
|-
|21
|And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
|
|
|-
|22
|And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
|
|
|-
|23
|And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
|
|
|-
|}

[[Category: Conservative Bible]]

Talk:Worst College Majors

2010-06-20T23:24:50Z

KenJ: /* English? */

In deference to JDWPianist, I'll defer to his change of "Music" to "Music Therapy," but "Music" as a college major is pretty useless. Maybe it's OK as a hobby, but not something that someone would profitably pay $100,000 for in terms of a degree except in the most unusual situations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 16 May 2010 (EDT)

Just like to note that Women Studies is not on any of the lists in the sources given for this page. --[[User:IreneK|IreneK]] 13:28, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

:You're right, and it's not hard to understand why. The [[liberal denial]] is too obvious for words.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:38, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

:Information in our articles should match up with sources used and not have information inserted with no backing. If there is a source that states Women Studies to be the worst college degree then it should of course be outlined in this article. Cause right now it seems to be more of opinion that it is number 1 because the lack of a source. --[[User:IreneK|IreneK]] 13:47, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

::Well perhaps you should start your own project, Irene. However the pendulum for tolerating liberal clap-trap is rapidly swinging against them, and it might not be worth your investment. My suggestion is that you open your mind; the truth will indeed set you free! --<big>[[User:TK|'''ṬK''']]</big><sub>/Admin</sub><sup>[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]</sup> 14:34, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

:::I am unsure as to where you are going with this TK. I am merely pointing out a fault with the article and getting fed back alot of liberal nonsense and wordism. Am i wrong to say the article is not backing up what the sources say? --[[User:IreneK|IreneK]] 17:18, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

: Hmmm, I would have to agree that Women's Studies didn't seem to have any practical applications in the workforce. So looked at the UC Davis college catalog to see what it had to say ([http://registrar.ucdavis.edu/UCDWebCatalog/PDF/14GenCatProg.pdf pg 385] - Warning, its a huge file!). I guess there are some realistic applications like counseling, medicine, or law. While there are obviously far better majors to prepare a student for these fields, I suppose that its not completely useless (like Star Trek or Surfing Studies!). Anyway, I hope this helps! [[User:JimFullerton|JimFullerton]] 17:23, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

Irene certainly has a point, the material is not sourced. Pointing that out is certainly not liberalism in and of itself. Are we intending to argue that the uselessness of that particular major is self-evident? (I certainly know of no use for it, but then again I really have no idea what they teach you)

Personally I'm not sure how credible a source on the usefulness of any particular college degree could possibly be. Have they actually backed up their analysis with solid research? I doubt it. I'm not sure this entire page is exactly encyclopedic. Perhaps it would be better to move it to the Essay namespace where it may prove a useful resource for students but won't be making the value-judgment (i.e. subjective, un-encyclopedic) about what is or isn't useful. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] <sub>[[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]]</sub> 17:45, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

: It only took me a minute or two to find many websites describing how bad a major "women's studies" is. I added one. More generally, what's wrong with a little "[[caveat emptor]]" for college majors? People are paying a ton of money plus [[opportunity cost]] on college, and it seems worth spending at least a little effort separating the wheat from the chaff.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:34, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

::Well you can say that is a source, but Insider? is just a gossip site on celebrities primarily. How are we determining credibility of sources here on CP? --[[User:IreneK|IreneK]] 22:48, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

:::Irene, there are dozens of sites stating the obvious. [[Liberal denial]] of obvious truths has no place here. Look in earnest yourself if you sincerely doubt the point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:11, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

::::I do not doubt Women Studies being useless. But i thought i raised a valid question, on determining credibility. For even when Conservapedia is right, which it often is, it should still need backing of credible sources to persuade doubters. Gives a much better foundation on Conservapedia's part; rather then excepting any yahoos opinion that is swayed by liberal bias. --[[User:IreneK|IreneK]] 23:22, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

:::::Putting aside the question of whether or not women's studies should be on the list of worst college majors, I agree with [[User:IreneK|IreneK]] that the source cited is not a credible source. Not only is ''The Insider'' hardly a reliable source, (it appears to be a liberal celebrity gossip site - I hope CP isn't going to start relying on that sort of thing!), the article is not even written by someone on ''The Insider'''s editorial staff. The article would be stronger and more persuasive if a more reliable source was cited. <br>
:::::For what it's worth, my impression has been that women's studies is often a minor, rather than a major, course of study, as a complement to another field. (In the same way that many people take philosophy courses in college, because they can be quite interesting, but few people major in philosophy, as there is not much of a market for it.) I don't know how accurate this impression is.
:::::Whether a particular course of study is worthwhile or not is somewhat in the eye of the beholder (or rather the person willing to pay for such classes), so any list such as this one is to some extent opinion rather than fact. Nonetheless, the article should at least have a source for whether the number of students pursuing such a major is increasing or decreasing (as mentioned in the current source), or what the job prospects really are, or what a typical starting salary for graduates might be. A quick Google search produced [http://www-afa.adm.ohio-state.edu/u-majors/pdf/womst.pdf this interesting document] from Ohio State, which might be worth looking at with an eye towards putting some of the info in the CP article. ''"After graduation, about half of women’s studies majors attend graduate or professional school, while others find employment in government and nonprofit agencies and organizations, as well as private businesses."'' Alas, it it quite late, so I don't have time to look for additional sources.<br>
:::::[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 00:16, 19 May 2010 (EDT)

Dare I say there's a worse major than Women's Studies? "Queer Studies," which grows ever more common, is an entire degree in justifying the homosexual agenda. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 23:45, 18 May 2010 (EDT)
::::Does any American college offer a Men's Studies program or a White Anglo Saxon Protestant Program? :) [[User:Conservative|conservative]] 02:09, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

:::::A quick Google says [http://www.akamaiuniversity.us/MensStudies.html#2 yes]. I believe many more offer Gender Studies courses, which presumably include both mens' and women's perspectives. Protestant universities would be a good place to look for courses on the experiences of Protestants in the US; similarly Catholic universities offer various courses from a Catholic perspective, and so on. [[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:28, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

I tried to edit this article but they got reverted almost right away. I am new here but have been looking at many articles in the past and editing this article based on the talk page and also the provided sources. In the provided links they do not make mention of atheism and only mention religion. Most people I know that went into religious studies went into it because they had a passion for it and were not looking for money. Should this be changed or even removed? Also the sourced articles read more like opinion pieces including the insider one and the learnfinancialplanning.com article that actually got its information from holytaco.com (which looks to be comedy site). Anyone disagree or should I go ahead and make these changes? [[User:Johnfranklin|Johnfranklin]] 15:15, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

: I do disagree. If students are enrolling in religion with good intentions, then all the more reason to alert them to what that field of study has really become.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:58, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

::I agree with john here. And students could just as easily find other ''opinionated'' articles in support for all of these majors.

::I agree with the idea that this isn't an encylopedic entry and should be moved to a debate page. --[[User:IreneK|IreneK]] 19:38, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

::: But the article is about how much the major makes monetarily which would include religion and many other studies , but to many people they enjoy what they do and wouldn't trade it in. Teaching for example does not pay the best of wages , but that does not stop people for pursuing a degree and having a passion for it and there are many good teachers out there. The same goes for writing, Dance, Philosophy, and even music. There are a lot of different majors in the world and going into someone just to earn money is more of a [[Social Darwinism]] type belief and not a good one at that. [[User:Johnfranklin|Johnfranklin]] 21:31, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

:::: The criticisms of these majors goes far beyond their lack of economic value. You protest too much, rather than adding information.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:07, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

:::::

I am more than happy to add or change information to this article but last time I did this I was banned (I did however move star trek to courses since Georgetown does not offer a degree for star trek) and I do agree that some of the degrees and courses have little value in today's world (I do disagree with some of them as well) but the articles sourced and the link for women studies are all based on how much a degree earns and opinionated which is very un-encyclopedic. Now I did find another article related to courses that I think we can add based on the non usefulness of courses like star trek, harry potter, soap opera. Any thought of if the following link should be used?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/07/AR2007100701401_2.html?sid=ST2007100701675

How about also a rewrite of the first part and state the following and remove the information about debt since as you stated this is not about economic value.

The worst college majors are fields of study that leave the student with relatively few job opportunities in the field of study and often a distorted and liberal view of the world.

Then source each field of study and why it gives the person a distorted view of the world and leave them few job opportunities.

For example for Parapsychology link to the either of the following articles.

http://atheism.about.com/od/parapsychology/a/repeatable.htm

http://www.rsd.edu/schools/rhs/mst/reading/005_Why_Parapsychology_is_a_Pseudoscience.pdf

[[User:Johnfranklin|Johnfranklin]] 11:34, 22 May 2010 (EDT)

any reason why the change to star trek was reverted. This is not a degree but instead a course offered by Georgetown. Should this be changed back to put it under courses? [[User:Johnfranklin|Johnfranklin]] 12:05, 22 May 2010 (EDT)

:If Star Trek is merely a course, please do move it back to the course section. But you continue to protest too much about the inclusion of women's studies. If you think that major has significant value worth the $200,000 that many spend on college, then please simply say what you think that value is. Would you pay $200,000 for the courses taught in women's studies? If so, why?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:12, 22 May 2010 (EDT)

:: I moved it back to sourced and sourced the link to Georgetown. I actually am not protesting inclusion of woman's studies as you might believe and actually fixed the sourcing of it to two articles that I hope you find as useful. What I am protesting is sourcing. The links provided are opinionated and in some of them un-sourced. For example how is Golf Management not useful? This degree is not based on playing golf but managing a golf course, working at a country club, etc. [[User:Johnfranklin|Johnfranklin]] 22:17, 22 May 2010 (EDT)

== Proposal: move to "Essay: Worst College Majors" ==

I think it would be more appropriate as it really fits in with [[Essay|this list]]. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinx McHue]] 22:17, 22 May 2010 (EDT)

I would agree with that and think it would work well as as an essay or even under debate [[User:Johnfranklin|Johnfranklin]] 22:19, 22 May 2010 (EDT)

== English? ==

I understand that most English professors are liberal, as are most professors in general. Hence [[professor values]]. However, I am a conservative English major, and I know several others who are as well. Although liberal writers are studied, so are powerful conservative and Christian writers like Dostoevsky, Rand, Shakespeare, and Milton. I developed most of my conservative principles through studying literature, and I am not the only one. Liberals do use English as an avenue for indoctrination, but they do the same with Biology, Anthropology, Philosophy, and other subjects. In fact, I find all three of those subjects to be much less open-minded than English. Biology and Anthropology, for example, teach that Evolution is fact, and not-so-subtly promote atheism. I have never had an English class that does this, but any English professor who did so could be reported to the Dean and condemned for such actions. Plus, English focuses mostly on composition, comprehension, and critical thinking, which is why it is a very important major for the Journalism and Publishing industries, and is a common undergraduate degree prior to Law and Business graduate schools. I am not saying English is the best major, but rating it worse than subjects like Comic Book Art and Surfing Studies makes no sense. [[User:Ckirk|Ckirk]] 19:14, 20 June 2010 (EDT)
:Majoring in English leaves virtually no job opportunities to those who take it. [[User:KenJ|KenJ]] 19:24, 20 June 2010 (EDT)

Proverbs 17-24 (Translated)

2010-06-20T23:21:43Z

KenJ: /* Chapter 23 */

==Chapter 17==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.
|
|
|-
|2
|A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.
|
|
|-
|3
|The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
|
|
|-
|4
|A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
|
|
|-
|5
|Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.
|
|
|-
|6
|Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.
|
|
|-
|7
|Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
|
|
|-
|8
|A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.
|
|
|-
|9
|He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.
|
|
|-
|10
|A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
|
|
|-
|11
|An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.
|
|
|-
|12
|Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.
|
|
|-
|13
|Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.
|
|
|-
|14
|The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.
|
|
|-
|15
|He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
|
|
|-
|16
|Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?
|
|
|-
|17
|A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.
|
|
|-
|18
|A man void of understanding striketh hands, and becometh surety in the presence of his friend.
|
|
|-
|19
|He loveth transgression that loveth strife: and he that exalteth his gate seeketh destruction.
|
|
|-
|20
|He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief.
|
|
|-
|21
|He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.
|
|
|-
|22
|A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
|
|
|-
|23
|A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.
|
|
|-
|24
|Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.
|
|
|-
|25
|A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.
|
|
|-
|26
|Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.
|
|
|-
|27
|He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.
|
|
|-
|28
|Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 18==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.
|
|
|-
|2
|A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
|
|
|-
|3
|When the wicked cometh, then cometh also contempt, and with ignominy reproach.
|
|
|-
|4
|The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.
|
|
|-
|5
|It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.
|
|
|-
|6
|A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
|
|
|-
|7
|A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
|
|
|-
|8
|The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
|
|
|-
|9
|He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.
|
|
|-
|10
|The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.
|
|
|-
|11
|The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit.
|
|
|-
|12
|Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
|
|
|-
|13
|He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
|
|
|-
|14
|The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
|
|
|-
|15
|The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
|
|
|-
|16
|A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.
|
|
|-
|17
|He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.
|
|
|-
|18
|The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty.
|
|
|-
|19
|A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
|
|
|-
|20
|A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
|
|
|-
|21
|Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
|
|
|-
|22
|Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|23
|The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.
|
|
|-
|24
|A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 19==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|Better is the poor that walketh in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lips, and is a fool.
|
|
|-
|2
|Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth.
|
|
|-
|3
|The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.
|
|
|-
|4
|Wealth maketh many friends; but the poor is separated from his neighbour.
|
|
|-
|5
|A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
|
|
|-
|6
|Many will intreat the favour of the prince: and every man is a friend to him that giveth gifts.
|
|
|-
|7
|All the brethren of the poor do hate him: how much more do his friends go far from him? he pursueth them with words, yet they are wanting to him.
|
|
|-
|8
|He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: he that keepeth understanding shall find good.
|
|
|-
|9
|A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
|
|
|-
|10
|Delight is not seemly for a fool; much less for a servant to have rule over princes.
|
|
|-
|11
|The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression.
|
|
|-
|12
|The king's wrath is as the roaring of a lion; but his favour is as dew upon the grass.
|
|
|-
|13
|A foolish son is the calamity of his father: and the contentions of a wife are a continual dropping.
|
|
|-
|14
|House and riches are the inheritance of fathers and a prudent wife is from the LORD.
|
|
|-
|15
|Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.
|
|
|-
|16
|He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.
|
|
|-
|17
|He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
|
|
|-
|18
|Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.
|
|
|-
|19
|A man of great wrath shall suffer punishment: for if thou deliver him, yet thou must do it again.
|
|
|-
|20
|Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.
|
|
|-
|21
|There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
|
|
|-
|22
|The desire of a man is his kindness: and a poor man is better than a liar.
|
|
|-
|23
|The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.
|
|
|-
|24
|A slothful man hideth his hand in his bosom, and will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.
|
|
|-
|25
|Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.
|
|
|-
|26
|He that wasteth his father, and chaseth away his mother, is a son that causeth shame, and bringeth reproach.
|
|
|-
|27
|Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
|
|
|-
|28
|An ungodly witness scorneth judgment: and the mouth of the wicked devoureth iniquity.
|
|
|-
|29
|Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 20==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
|
|
|-
|2
|The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: whoso provoketh him to anger sinneth against his own soul.
|
|
|-
|3
|It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.
|
|
|-
|4
|The sluggard will not plow by reason of the cold; therefore shall he beg in harvest, and have nothing.
|
|
|-
|5
|Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out.
|
|
|-
|6
|Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
|
|
|-
|7
|The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him.
|
|
|-
|8
|A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
|
|
|-
|9
|Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
|
|
|-
|10
|Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.
|
|
|-
|11
|Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
|
|
|-
|12
|The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.
|
|
|-
|13
|Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread.
|
|
|-
|14
|It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth.
|
|
|-
|15
|There is gold, and a multitude of rubies: but the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel.
|
|
|-
|16
|Take his garment that is surety for a stranger: and take a pledge of him for a strange woman.
|
|
|-
|17
|Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
|
|
|-
|18
|Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war.
|
|
|-
|19
|He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.
|
|
|-
|20
|Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.
|
|
|-
|21
|An inheritance may be gotten hastily at the beginning; but the end thereof shall not be blessed.
|
|
|-
|22
|Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.
|
|
|-
|23
|Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.
|
|
|-
|24
|Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
|
|
|-
|25
|It is a snare to the man who devoureth that which is holy, and after vows to make inquiry.
|
|
|-
|26
|A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.
|
|
|-
|27
|The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
|
|
|-
|28
|Mercy and truth preserve the king: and his throne is upholden by mercy.
|
|
|-
|29
|The glory of young men is their strength: and the beauty of old men is the gray head.
|
|
|-
|30
|The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 21==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
|
|
|-
|2
|Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
|
|
|-
|3
|To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
|
|
|-
|4
|An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
|
|
|-
|5
|The thoughts of the diligent tend only to plenteousness; but of every one that is hasty only to want.
|
|
|-
|6
|The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
|
|
|-
|7
|The robbery of the wicked shall destroy them; because they refuse to do judgment.
|
|
|-
|8
|The way of man is froward and strange: but as for the pure, his work is right.
|
|
|-
|9
|It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.
|
|
|-
|10
|The soul of the wicked desireth evil: his neighbour findeth no favour in his eyes.
|
|
|-
|11
|When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise: and when the wise is instructed, he receiveth knowledge.
|
|
|-
|12
|The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.
|
|
|-
|13
|Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
|
|
|-
|14
|A gift in secret pacifieth anger: and a reward in the bosom strong wrath.
|
|
|-
|15
|It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
|
|
|-
|16
|The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.
|
|
|-
|17
|He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.
|
|
|-
|18
|The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright.
|
|
|-
|19
|It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.
|
|
|-
|20
|There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.
|
|
|-
|21
|He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.
|
|
|-
|22
|A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty, and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof.
|
|
|-
|23
|Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles.
|
|
|-
|24
|Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath.
|
|
|-
|25
|The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.
|
|
|-
|26
|He coveteth greedily all the day long: but the righteous giveth and spareth not.
|
|
|-
|27
|The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
|
|
|-
|28
|A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.
|
|
|-
|29
|A wicked man hardeneth his face: but as for the upright, he directeth his way.
|
|
|-
|30
|There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.
|
|
|-
|31
|The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 22==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.
|
|
|-
|2
|The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.
|
|
|-
|3
|A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
|
|
|-
|4
|By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
|
|
|-
|5
|Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them.
|
|
|-
|6
|Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
|
|
|-
|7
|The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
|
|
|-
|8
|He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
|
|
|-
|9
|He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.
|
|
|-
|10
|Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
|
|
|-
|11
|He that loveth pureness of heart, for the grace of his lips the king shall be his friend.
|
|
|-
|12
|The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.
|
|
|-
|13
|The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets.
|
|
|-
|14
|The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.
|
|
|-
|15
|Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
|
|
|-
|16
|He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.
|
|
|-
|17
|Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.
|
|
|-
|18
|For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.
|
|
|-
|19
|That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.
|
|
|-
|20
|Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
|
|
|-
|21
|That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
|
|
|-
|22
|Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
|
|
|-
|23
|For the LORD will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them.
|
|
|-
|24
|Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
|
|
|-
|25
|Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.
|
|
|-
|26
|Be not thou one of them that strike hands, or of them that are sureties for debts.
|
|
|-
|27
|If thou hast nothing to pay, why should he take away thy bed from under thee?
|
|
|-
|28
|Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.
|
|
|-
|29
|Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 23==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee:
|When you sit to eat with a ruler, consider what is before you:
|
|-
|2
|And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.
|
|
|-
|3
|Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.
|
|
|-
|4
|Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.
|
|
|-
|5
|Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.
|
|
|-
|6
|Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
|
|
|-
|7
|For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
|
|
|-
|8
|The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.
|
|
|-
|9
|Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
|
|
|-
|10
|Remove not the old landmark; and enter not into the fields of the fatherless:
|
|
|-
|11
|For their redeemer is mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee.
|
|
|-
|12
|Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.
|
|
|-
|13
|Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
|
|
|-
|14
|Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
|
|
|-
|15
|My son, if thine heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, even mine.
|
|
|-
|16
|Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.
|
|
|-
|17
|Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.
|
|
|-
|18
|For surely there is an end; and thine expectation shall not be cut off.
|
|
|-
|19
|Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
|
|
|-
|20
|Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
|
|
|-
|21
|For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
|
|
|-
|22
|Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old.
|
|
|-
|23
|Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
|
|
|-
|24
|The father of the righteous shall greatly rejoice: and he that begetteth a wise child shall have joy of him.
|
|
|-
|25
|Thy father and thy mother shall be glad, and she that bare thee shall rejoice.
|
|
|-
|26
|My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways.
|
|
|-
|27
|For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit.
|
|
|-
|28
|She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increaseth the transgressors among men.
|
|
|-
|29
|Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
|
|
|-
|30
|They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
|
|
|-
|31
|Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
|
|
|-
|32
|At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
|
|
|-
|33
|Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
|
|
|-
|34
|Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
|
|
|-
|35
|They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 24==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them.
|
|
|-
|2
|For their heart studieth destruction, and their lips talk of mischief.
|
|
|-
|3
|Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:
|
|
|-
|4
|And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.
|
|
|-
|5
|A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.
|
|
|-
|6
|For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellers there is safety.
|
|
|-
|7
|Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.
|
|
|-
|8
|He that deviseth to do evil shall be called a mischievous person.
|
|
|-
|9
|The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.
|
|
|-
|10
|If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
|
|
|-
|11
|If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
|
|
|-
|12
|If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
|
|
|-
|13
|My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste:
|
|
|-
|14
|So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.
|
|
|-
|15
|Lay not wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; spoil not his resting place:
|
|
|-
|16
|For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
|
|
|-
|17
|Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
|
|
|-
|18
|Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
|
|
|-
|19
|Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked;
|
|
|-
|20
|For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
|
|
|-
|21
|My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
|
|
|-
|22
|For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
|
|
|-
|23
|These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
|
|
|-
|24
|He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
|
|
|-
|25
|But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
|
|
|-
|26
|Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
|
|
|-
|27
|Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house.
|
|
|-
|28
|Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.
|
|
|-
|29
|Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
|
|
|-
|30
|I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;
|
|
|-
|31
|And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
|
|
|-
|32
|Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.
|
|
|-
|33
|Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:
|
|
|-
|34
|So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth; and thy want as an armed man.
|
|
|-
|}

[[Category:Conservative Bible]]

Numbers 28-36 (Translated)

2010-06-20T23:12:42Z

KenJ: /* Chapter 28 */

==Chapter 28==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|God said to Moses,
|
|-
|2
|Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savour unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season.
|
|
|-
|3
|And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.
|
|
|-
|4
|The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;
|
|
|-
|5
|And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.
|
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|-
|6
|It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|7
|And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
|
|
|-
|8
|And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|9
|And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
|
|
|-
|10
|This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|11
|And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot;
|
|
|-
|12
|And three tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one bullock; and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one ram;
|
|
|-
|13
|And a several tenth deal of flour mingled with oil for a meat offering unto one lamb; for a burnt offering of a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|14
|And their drink offerings shall be half an hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year.
|
|
|-
|15
|And one kid of the goats for a sin offering unto the LORD shall be offered, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.
|
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|-
|16
|And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|17
|And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
|
|
|-
|18
|In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:
|
|
|-
|19
|But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:
|
|
|-
|20
|And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram;
|
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|-
|21
|A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
|
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|-
|22
|And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.
|
|
|-
|23
|Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering.
|
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|-
|24
|After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|25
|And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.
|
|
|-
|26
|Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:
|
|
|-
|27
|But ye shall offer the burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the LORD; two young bullocks, one ram, seven lambs of the first year;
|
|
|-
|28
|And their meat offering of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto one bullock, two tenth deals unto one ram,
|
|
|-
|29
|A several tenth deal unto one lamb, throughout the seven lambs;
|
|
|-
|30
|And one kid of the goats, to make an atonement for you.
|
|
|-
|31
|Ye shall offer them beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, (they shall be unto you without blemish) and their drink offerings.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 29==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.
|
|
|-
|2
|And ye shall offer a burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the LORD; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year without blemish:
|
|
|-
|3
|And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram,
|
|
|-
|4
|And one tenth deal for one lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
|
|
|-
|5
|And one kid of the goats for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you:
|
|
|-
|6
|Beside the burnt offering of the month, and his meat offering, and the daily burnt offering, and his meat offering, and their drink offerings, according unto their manner, for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.
|
|
|-
|7
|And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein:
|
|
|-
|8
|But ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD for a sweet savour; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year; they shall be unto you without blemish:
|
|
|-
|9
|And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals to a bullock, and two tenth deals to one ram,
|
|
|-
|10
|A several tenth deal for one lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
|
|
|-
|11
|One kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the sin offering of atonement, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.
|
|
|-
|12
|And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:
|
|
|-
|13
|And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:
|
|
|-
|14
|And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams,
|
|
|-
|15
|And a several tenth deal to each lamb of the fourteen lambs:
|
|
|-
|16
|And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|17
|And on the second day ye shall offer twelve young bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without spot:
|
|
|-
|18
|And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|19
|And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering thereof, and their drink offerings.
|
|
|-
|20
|And on the third day eleven bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish;
|
|
|-
|21
|And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|22
|And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|23
|And on the fourth day ten bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
|
|
|-
|24
|Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|25
|And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|26
|And on the fifth day nine bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without spot:
|
|
|-
|27
|And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|28
|And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|29
|And on the sixth day eight bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
|
|
|-
|30
|And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|31
|And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|32
|And on the seventh day seven bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
|
|
|-
|33
|And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|34
|And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|35
|On the eighth day ye shall have a solemn assembly: ye shall do no servile work therein:
|
|
|-
|36
|But ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: one bullock, one ram, seven lambs of the first year without blemish:
|
|
|-
|37
|Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullock, for the ram, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
|
|
|-
|38
|And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
|
|
|-
|39
|These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.
|
|
|-
|40
|And Moses told the children of Israel according to all that the LORD commanded Moses.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 30==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded.
|
|
|-
|2
|If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
|
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|-
|3
|If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;
|
|
|-
|4
|And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.
|
|
|-
|5
|But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.
|
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|-
|6
|And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;
|
|
|-
|7
|And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
|
|
|-
|8
|But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
|
|
|-
|9
|But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
|
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|-
|10
|And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
|
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|-
|11
|And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
|
|
|-
|12
|But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.
|
|
|-
|13
|Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.
|
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|-
|14
|But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard them.
|
|
|-
|15
|But if he shall any ways make them void after that he hath heard them; then he shall bear her iniquity.
|
|
|-
|16
|These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth in her father's house.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 31==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|2
|Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
|
|
|-
|3
|And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
|
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|-
|4
|Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
|
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|-
|5
|So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
|
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|-
|6
|And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
|
|
|-
|7
|And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
|
|
|-
|8
|And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
|
|
|-
|9
|And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
|
|
|-
|10
|And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
|
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|-
|11
|And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
|
|
|-
|12
|And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
|
|
|-
|13
|And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
|
|
|-
|14
|And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
|
|
|-
|15
|And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
|
|
|-
|16
|Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|17
|Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
|
|
|-
|18
|But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
|
|
|-
|19
|And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
|
|
|-
|20
|And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.
|
|
|-
|21
|And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
|
|
|-
|22
|Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
|
|
|-
|23
|Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
|
|
|-
|24
|And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.
|
|
|-
|25
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|26
|Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
|
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|-
|27
|And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
|
|
|-
|28
|And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
|
|
|-
|29
|Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|30
|And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
|
|
|-
|31
|And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
|
|
|-
|32
|And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
|
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|-
|33
|And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
|
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|-
|34
|And threescore and one thousand asses,
|
|
|-
|35
|And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of woman that had not known man by lying with him.
|
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|-
|36
|And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:
|
|
|-
|37
|And the LORD's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
|
|
|-
|38
|And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and twelve.
|
|
|-
|39
|And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and one.
|
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|-
|40
|And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons.
|
|
|-
|41
|And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD's heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.
|
|
|-
|42
|And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,
|
|
|-
|43
|(Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,
|
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|-
|44
|And thirty and six thousand beeves,
|
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|-
|45
|And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,
|
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|-
|46
|And sixteen thousand persons;)
|
|
|-
|47
|Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.
|
|
|-
|48
|And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:
|
|
|-
|49
|And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.
|
|
|-
|50
|We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
|
|
|-
|51
|And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.
|
|
|-
|52
|And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.
|
|
|-
|53
|(For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)
|
|
|-
|54
|And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 32==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle;
|
|
|-
|2
|The children of Gad and the children of Reuben came and spake unto Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and unto the princes of the congregation, saying,
|
|
|-
|3
|Ataroth, and Dibon, and Jazer, and Nimrah, and Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Shebam, and Nebo, and Beon,
|
|
|-
|4
|Even the country which the LORD smote before the congregation of Israel, is a land for cattle, and thy servants have cattle:
|
|
|-
|5
|Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.
|
|
|-
|6
|And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?
|
|
|-
|7
|And wherefore discourage ye the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the land which the LORD hath given them?
|
|
|-
|8
|Thus did your fathers, when I sent them from Kadesh-barnea to see the land.
|
|
|-
|9
|For when they went up unto the valley of Eshcol, and saw the land, they discouraged the heart of the children of Israel, that they should not go into the land which the LORD had given them.
|
|
|-
|10
|And the LORD's anger was kindled the same time, and he sware, saying,
|
|
|-
|11
|Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
|
|
|-
|12
|Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
|
|
|-
|13
|And the LORD's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
|
|
|-
|14
|And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the LORD toward Israel.
|
|
|-
|15
|For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people.
|
|
|-
|16
|And they came near unto him, and said, We will build sheepfolds here for our cattle, and cities for our little ones:
|
|
|-
|17
|But we ourselves will go ready armed before the children of Israel, until we have brought them unto their place: and our little ones shall dwell in the fenced cities because of the inhabitants of the land.
|
|
|-
|18
|We will not return unto our houses, until the children of Israel have inherited every man his inheritance.
|
|
|-
|19
|For we will not inherit with them on yonder side Jordan, or forward; because our inheritance is fallen to us on this side Jordan eastward.
|
|
|-
|20
|And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
|
|
|-
|21
|And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him,
|
|
|-
|22
|And the land be subdued before the LORD: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the LORD, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the LORD.
|
|
|-
|23
|But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.
|
|
|-
|24
|Build you cities for your little ones, and folds for your sheep; and do that which hath proceeded out of your mouth.
|
|
|-
|25
|And the children of Gad and the children of Reuben spake unto Moses, saying, Thy servants will do as my lord commandeth.
|
|
|-
|26
|Our little ones, our wives, our flocks, and all our cattle, shall be there in the cities of Gilead:
|
|
|-
|27
|But thy servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the LORD to battle, as my lord saith.
|
|
|-
|28
|So concerning them Moses commanded Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun, and the chief fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel:
|
|
|-
|29
|And Moses said unto them, If the children of Gad and the children of Reuben will pass with you over Jordan, every man armed to battle, before the LORD, and the land shall be subdued before you; then ye shall give them the land of Gilead for a possession:
|
|
|-
|30
|But if they will not pass over with you armed, they shall have possessions among you in the land of Canaan.
|
|
|-
|31
|And the children of Gad and the children of Reuben answered, saying, As the LORD hath said unto thy servants, so will we do.
|
|
|-
|32
|We will pass over armed before the LORD into the land of Canaan, that the possession of our inheritance on this side Jordan may be ours.
|
|
|-
|33
|And Moses gave unto them, even to the children of Gad, and to the children of Reuben, and unto half the tribe of Manasseh the son of Joseph, the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, and the kingdom of Og king of Bashan, the land, with the cities thereof in the coasts, even the cities of the country round about.
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|
|-
|34
|And the children of Gad built Dibon, and Ataroth, and Aroer,
|
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|-
|35
|And Atroth, Shophan, and Jaazer, and Jogbehah,
|
|
|-
|36
|And Beth-nimrah, and Beth-haran, fenced cities: and folds for sheep.
|
|
|-
|37
|And the children of Reuben built Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Kirjathaim,
|
|
|-
|38
|And Nebo, and Baal-meon, (their names being changed,) and Shibmah: and gave other names unto the cities which they builded.
|
|
|-
|39
|And the children of Machir the son of Manasseh went to Gilead, and took it, and dispossessed the Amorite which was in it.
|
|
|-
|40
|And Moses gave Gilead unto Machir the son of Manasseh; and he dwelt therein.
|
|
|-
|41
|And Jair the son of Manasseh went and took the small towns thereof, and called them Havoth-jair.
|
|
|-
|42
|And Nobah went and took Kenath, and the villages thereof, and called it Nobah, after his own name.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 33==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|These are the journeys of the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt with their armies under the hand of Moses and Aaron.
|
|
|-
|2
|And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.
|
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|-
|3
|And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
|
|
|-
|4
|For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.
|
|
|-
|5
|And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth.
|
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|-
|6
|And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness.
|
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|-
|7
|And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pi-hahiroth, which is before Baal-zephon: and they pitched before Migdol.
|
|
|-
|8
|And they departed from before Pi-hahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness, and went three days' journey in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah.
|
|
|-
|9
|And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there.
|
|
|-
|10
|And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea.
|
|
|-
|11
|And they removed from the Red sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin.
|
|
|-
|12
|And they took their journey out of the wilderness of Sin, and encamped in Dophkah.
|
|
|-
|13
|And they departed from Dophkah, and encamped in Alush.
|
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|-
|14
|And they removed from Alush, and encamped at Rephidim, where was no water for the people to drink.
|
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|-
|15
|And they departed from Rephidim, and pitched in the wilderness of Sinai.
|
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|-
|16
|And they removed from the desert of Sinai, and pitched at Kibroth-hattaavah.
|
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|-
|17
|And they departed from Kibroth-hattaavah, and encamped at Hazeroth.
|
|
|-
|18
|And they departed from Hazeroth, and pitched in Rithmah.
|
|
|-
|19
|And they departed from Rithmah, and pitched at Rimmon-parez.
|
|
|-
|20
|And they departed from Rimmon-parez, and pitched in Libnah.
|
|
|-
|21
|And they removed from Libnah, and pitched at Rissah.
|
|
|-
|22
|And they journeyed from Rissah, and pitched in Kehelathah.
|
|
|-
|23
|And they went from Kehelathah, and pitched in mount Shapher.
|
|
|-
|24
|And they removed from mount Shapher, and encamped in Haradah.
|
|
|-
|25
|And they removed from Haradah, and pitched in Makheloth.
|
|
|-
|26
|And they removed from Makheloth, and encamped at Tahath.
|
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|-
|27
|And they departed from Tahath, and pitched at Tarah.
|
|
|-
|28
|And they removed from Tarah, and pitched in Mithcah.
|
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|-
|29
|And they went from Mithcah, and pitched in Hashmonah.
|
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|-
|30
|And they departed from Hashmonah, and encamped at Moseroth.
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|-
|31
|And they departed from Moseroth, and pitched in Bene-jaakan.
|
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|-
|32
|And they removed from Bene-jaakan, and encamped at Hor-hagidgad.
|
|
|-
|33
|And they went from Hor-hagidgad, and pitched in Jotbathah.
|
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|-
|34
|And they removed from Jotbathah, and encamped at Ebronah.
|
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|-
|35
|And they departed from Ebronah, and encamped at Ezion-gaber.
|
|
|-
|36
|And they removed from Ezion-gaber, and pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh.
|
|
|-
|37
|And they removed from Kadesh, and pitched in mount Hor, in the edge of the land of Edom.
|
|
|-
|38
|And Aaron the priest went up into mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the first day of the fifth month.
|
|
|-
|39
|And Aaron was an hundred and twenty and three years old when he died in mount Hor.
|
|
|-
|40
|And king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south in the land of Canaan, heard of the coming of the children of Israel.
|
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|-
|41
|And they departed from mount Hor, and pitched in Zalmonah.
|
|
|-
|42
|And they departed from Zalmonah, and pitched in Punon.
|
|
|-
|43
|And they departed from Punon, and pitched in Oboth.
|
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|-
|44
|And they departed from Oboth, and pitched in Ije-abarim, in the border of Moab.
|
|
|-
|45
|And they departed from Iim, and pitched in Dibon-gad.
|
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|-
|46
|And they removed from Dibon-gad, and encamped in Almon-diblathaim.
|
|
|-
|47
|And they removed from Almon-diblathaim, and pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo.
|
|
|-
|48
|And they departed from the mountains of Abarim, and pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.
|
|
|-
|49
|And they pitched by Jordan, from Beth-jesimoth even unto Abel-shittim in the plains of Moab.
|
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|-
|50
|And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
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|-
|51
|Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
|
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|-
|52
|Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
|
|
|-
|53
|And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
|
|
|-
|54
|And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
|
|
|-
|55
|But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
|
|
|-
|56
|Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 34==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|2
|Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof:)
|
|
|-
|3
|Then your south quarter shall be from the wilderness of Zin along by the coast of Edom, and your south border shall be the outmost coast of the salt sea eastward:
|
|
|-
|4
|And your border shall turn from the south to the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass on to Zin: and the going forth thereof shall be from the south to Kadesh-barnea, and shall go on to Hazar-addar, and pass on to Azmon:
|
|
|-
|5
|And the border shall fetch a compass from Azmon unto the river of Egypt, and the goings out of it shall be at the sea.
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|-
|6
|And as for the western border, ye shall even have the great sea for a border: this shall be your west border.
|
|
|-
|7
|And this shall be your north border: from the great sea ye shall point out for you mount Hor:
|
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|-
|8
|From mount Hor ye shall point out your border unto the entrance of Hamath; and the goings forth of the border shall be to Zedad:
|
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|-
|9
|And the border shall go on to Ziphron, and the goings out of it shall be at Hazar-enan: this shall be your north border.
|
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|-
|10
|And ye shall point out your east border from Hazar-enan to Shepham:
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|-
|11
|And the coast shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall descend, and shall reach unto the side of the sea of Chinnereth eastward:
|
|
|-
|12
|And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about.
|
|
|-
|13
|And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying, This is the land which ye shall inherit by lot, which the LORD commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half tribe:
|
|
|-
|14
|For the tribe of the children of Reuben according to the house of their fathers, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to the house of their fathers, have received their inheritance; and half the tribe of Manasseh have received their inheritance:
|
|
|-
|15
|The two tribes and the half tribe have received their inheritance on this side Jordan near Jericho eastward, toward the sunrising.
|
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|-
|16
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
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|-
|17
|These are the names of the men which shall divide the land unto you: Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun.
|
|
|-
|18
|And ye shall take one prince of every tribe, to divide the land by inheritance.
|
|
|-
|19
|And the names of the men are these: Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
|
|
|-
|20
|And of the tribe of the children of Simeon, Shemuel the son of Ammihud.
|
|
|-
|21
|Of the tribe of Benjamin, Elidad the son of Chislon.
|
|
|-
|22
|And the prince of the tribe of the children of Dan, Bukki the son of Jogli.
|
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|-
|23
|The prince of the children of Joseph, for the tribe of the children of Manasseh, Hanniel the son of Ephod.
|
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|-
|24
|And the prince of the tribe of the children of Ephraim, Kemuel the son of Shiphtan.
|
|
|-
|25
|And the prince of the tribe of the children of Zebulun, Elizaphan the son of Parnach.
|
|
|-
|26
|And the prince of the tribe of the children of Issachar, Paltiel the son of Azzan.
|
|
|-
|27
|And the prince of the tribe of the children of Asher, Ahihud the son of Shelomi.
|
|
|-
|28
|And the prince of the tribe of the children of Naphtali, Pedahel the son of Ammihud.
|
|
|-
|29
|These are they whom the LORD commanded to divide the inheritance unto the children of Israel in the land of Canaan.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 35==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
|
|
|-
|2
|Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
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|
|-
|3
|And the cities shall they have to dwell in; and the suburbs of them shall be for their cattle, and for their goods, and for all their beasts.
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|-
|4
|And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
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|-
|5
|And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.
|
|
|-
|6
|And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities.
|
|
|-
|7
|So all the cities which ye shall give to the Levites shall be forty and eight cities: them shall ye give with their suburbs.
|
|
|-
|8
|And the cities which ye shall give shall be of the possession of the children of Israel: from them that have many ye shall give many; but from them that have few ye shall give few: every one shall give of his cities unto the Levites according to his inheritance which he inheriteth.
|
|
|-
|9
|And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
|
|
|-
|10
|Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
|
|
|-
|11
|Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares.
|
|
|-
|12
|And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.
|
|
|-
|13
|And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge.
|
|
|-
|14
|Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge.
|
|
|-
|15
|These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.
|
|
|-
|16
|And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
|
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|-
|17
|And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
|
|
|-
|18
|Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
|
|
|-
|19
|The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
|
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|-
|20
|But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die;
|
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|-
|21
|Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.
|
|
|-
|22
|But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait,
|
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|-
|23
|Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing him not, and cast it upon him, that he die, and was not his enemy, neither sought his harm:
|
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|-
|24
|Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments:
|
|
|-
|25
|And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
|
|
|-
|26
|But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled;
|
|
|-
|27
|And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
|
|
|-
|28
|Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.
|
|
|-
|29
|So these things shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
|
|
|-
|30
|Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
|
|
|-
|31
|Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
|
|
|-
|32
|And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest.
|
|
|-
|33
|So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
|
|
|-
|34
|Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.
|
|
|-
|}

==Chapter 36==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Verse
!King James Version
!Proposed Conservative Translation
!Analysis
|-
|1
|And the chief fathers of the families of the children of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of the sons of Joseph, came near, and spake before Moses, and before the princes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel:
|
|
|-
|2
|And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.
|
|
|-
|3
|And if they be married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then shall their inheritance be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and shall be put to the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall it be taken from the lot of our inheritance.
|
|
|-
|4
|And when the jubile of the children of Israel shall be, then shall their inheritance be put unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.
|
|
|-
|5
|And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the LORD, saying, The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well.
|
|
|-
|6
|This is the thing which the LORD doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry.
|
|
|-
|7
|So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel remove from tribe to tribe: for every one of the children of Israel shall keep himself to the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers.
|
|
|-
|8
|And every daughter, that possesseth an inheritance in any tribe of the children of Israel, shall be wife unto one of the family of the tribe of her father, that the children of Israel may enjoy every man the inheritance of his fathers.
|
|
|-
|9
|Neither shall the inheritance remove from one tribe to another tribe; but every one of the tribes of the children of Israel shall keep himself to his own inheritance.
|
|
|-
|10
|Even as the LORD commanded Moses, so did the daughters of Zelophehad:
|
|
|-
|11
|For Mahlal, Tirzah, and Hoglah, and Milcah, and Noah, the daughters of Zelophehad, were married unto their father's brothers' sons:
|
|
|-
|12
|And they were married into the families of the sons of Manasseh the son of Joseph, and their inheritance remained in the tribe of the family of their father.
|
|
|-
|13
|These are the commandments and the judgments, which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.
|
|
|-
|}

[[Category:Conservative Bible]]