<?xml version="1.0"?>
<feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en">
	<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&amp;feedformat=atom&amp;user=KSorenson</id>
	<title>Conservapedia - User contributions [en]</title>
	<link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&amp;feedformat=atom&amp;user=KSorenson"/>
	<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/KSorenson"/>
	<updated>2026-09-30T22:26:15Z</updated>
	<subtitle>User contributions</subtitle>
	<generator>MediaWiki 1.35.14</generator>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720706</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720706"/>
		<updated>2009-11-16T04:31:05Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GR's predictions are off by more than the margin of error, as we discussed in detail above; it and special relativity have absurd discontinuities; there are logical flaws, as in relativistic mass; it conflicts with QM; and it predicts gravitons that have never been found despite wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on it.  Relativity pulls people away from reading the Bible and relativity is pushed big-time by liberals.  It chills progress by intimidating people against criticizing it.  Other than that, the theory is pretty good!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Wow, Mr. Schlafly must really like this conversation, he actually made a joke. ;) jk [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 00:15, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks very much for taking the time to reply; I understand better now. Of course, some of that is unmitigated garbage, and we'll have plenty of chances to deal with it when I fix your [[theory of relativity]] article next week, so I'll skip some points for now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*''You'' discussed the fact that the predictions are outside the margin of error; ''I'' pointed out to you repeatedly that you were mistaken. I even offered to show you a plot. So come on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*To be frank, relativity doesn't ''conflict'' with quantum mechanics; the two theories don't overlap in any domains we can presently observe. But that's the problem. They don't overlap, so we don't know how we're going to understand systems where both gravity and quantum mechanics have non-negligible effects. It's entirely possible that every such region of spacetime is sequestered behind an event horizon; that's jokingly called the &amp;quot;convenient cosmic censorship hypothesis&amp;quot; by one of my colleagues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity doesn't predict gravitons at all. General relativity doesn't say anything about particles; the Standard Model predicts the existence of particles (like the Higgs). Gravitons are part of the various attempts to reformulate general relativity as a vector gauge theory, none of which have gotten there yet. And, uh, since none of the gauge theories have gotten there yet, Andy, ''not one dollar'' has been spent looking for gravitons. Because we don't know where to look. But we ''do'' know that if they could be detected by existing particle accelerators, they would've been. So if and when physicists decide to look for them, it's going to have to start with building an accelerator the size of our galaxy&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;WARNING: exaggeration for humorous effect, do not take literally.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and you'll have your chance to lobby the appropriations committee then.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Yes, studying relativity does take people away from time they could spend in religious activities. So does reading this site. Just give me a chance to copy-and-paste my contributions out before you shut it down to remove the temptation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, like I said, we'll have plenty of time to have these arguments when I start work on [[theory of relativity]]. All I ask is that you ''engage in constructive collaboration'' with me and whomever else chooses to help out, rather than pouncing on the &amp;quot;undo&amp;quot; button like you did when I rewrote [[black hole]]. We've both demonstrated that we're reasonable adults, I think; we can work together. Deal? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I've been quietly following this conversation today, but Kate beat me to the &amp;quot;Submit&amp;quot; button!  Well, I'll just point out that scientists can and frequently do &amp;quot;intimidat[e] people against criticizing&amp;quot; pretty much any theory, because they think it's right and they don't want to waste time.  It's quite likely close-mindedness, but it exists, and you can't take that as disproof of the theory.  I don't think someone who rejected Mendel or Maxwell would get pretty far today, either.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(Yes, I know Mendel has been amended with epigenetic inheritance, but I think you get my picture)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;.  It's just a bothersome red herring.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don't know anything about the Mercury data, but the most recent data I've seen here says general relativity might work; it's at the border of the range of error, and it's too precise for any of us to extrapolate.  General relativity could be spot on.  Or, a new theory being needed - if you're trying to construct a [[theory of everything]], a new theory definitely is needed to deal with [[quantum mechanics]]!  But, general relativity does predict a lot of things better than Newton.  Newton didn't explain everything, nor does general relativity - but I think you can find better stuff to attack it with than an extrapolation of Mercury orbital data. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:37, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Ugh, I really should be sleeping, but this is just such an engaging conversation I can't seem to break away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::If you make a measurement to test a theory and the measurement doesn't match the prediction, there are three possibilities. Either the measurement is wrong (&amp;quot;That's not Mercury, that's Saturn!&amp;quot;) or the theory is wrong (&amp;quot;Turns out gravity ''isn't'' really caused by leprechauns!&amp;quot;) or both are fundamentally right but you failed to take something into account (&amp;quot;We really shouldn't have assumed the sun is a sphere.&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The thing about the Mercury anomaly is that the observed and predicted numbers are ''insanely'' close together. So close as to be declared equal within the margin of error. So either general relativity is ''absolutely'' right and we accounted for ''everything'' — no physicist believes this, by the way — or general relativity is at least ''incredibly close'' to being right, so close that the factors we failed to account for are negligible at the scale of the Mercury anomaly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the thing is, Mercury is really thin sauce, as gravity goes. The fields are weak, and the prediction we're testing doesn't say anything terribly interesting about the theory. If you want to get a real feel for how general relativity holds up as a ''physical'' theory, and not just a mathematical one, you really need to look at the Gravity Probe B data. (Conflict of interest alert: I worked on that project.) That experiment didn't measure gravitation indirectly by observing the motion of a particle; it measured it ''directly'' by parallel transporting a vector in a closed loop around a region of curvature. We ''empirically'' measured the curvature of spacetime around a gravitating object (the Earth) and found it to be non-zero. Spacetime is ''not'' flat, massive bodies ''do'' curve spacetime, and the fundamental ''idea'' of general relativity reflects nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::General relativity doesn't just say that a falling body moves like such-n-such. It tells us ''why.'' And to see it dismissed out of hand because Andy doesn't care for the size of the error bars on the results of a radar study? That, I confess, rubs me the wrong way. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:51, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Great point about experimental error.  Before I ''really do'' sign off for the night, Kate, I'd like to give you an article suggestion:  [[Gravity_Probe_B]].  I'm enthusiastically looking forward to hearing how it was done! --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 01:00, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, I'm not the girl to write that one. It'd be 200 pages long and full of equations and whole paragraphs of me going &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome!&amp;quot;'' --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 01:09, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::On the contrary.  You are exactly the right girl to write this.  But not yet.  Do GR first, OK?  And you'll have to take off your instructor hat, and put on your explainer-for-lay-people hat, so that it won't be 200 pages long.  Whenever you reach the point where you think &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome''&amp;quot;, don't go into &amp;quot;and so I have to write the awesome equations&amp;quot;.  Go into &amp;quot;how can I convey the awesomeness to my reader?&amp;quot;.  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 11:32, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I don't want to perpetuate this debate, but I don't want a lack of response to be misinterpreted.  Relativity has quasi-religious status for many; they'll defend regardless of what the evidence is, regardless of its absurd inconsistencies, and regardless of its far-fetched assumptions and non-falsifiability.  I don't mind relativity, and look forward to reviewing the updated entry.  But open-mindedness is not a trait of many relativists, who will demonize anyone who points out its fairly obvious flaws.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::One way to evaluate religions, or quasi-religions, is to look at the fruit it bears.  What has it helped achieved?  In the case of relativity, it has produced nothing.  Nil.  Zippo.  After nearly 100 years and a ton of money.  If you find the math in relativity fun, great, but relativity is not going to help anyone.  It never has.  Pick up a Bible in between some equations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:31, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::''&amp;quot;Relativity has quasi-religious status for many&amp;amp;hellip;regardless of its far-fetched assumptions and non-falsifiability.&amp;quot;''  As has already been shown repeatedly by those knowledgeable and qualified in the subject such as KSorenson the theory of general relativity is eminently falsifiable.  For instance the two gravity probes (GP-A and GP-B) were launched specifically to measure rate change of a clock in lower gravity and space-time curvature near the Earth respectively, both experiments specifically testing the theory of relativity.  As both experiments were to test the theory of relativity this means that the theory of relativity meets the requirements to be considered falsifiable.  This is as patently obvious as stating that 2+2=4.  If the theory of relativity is not falsifiable then no experiment can exist to test it.  The existence of Gravity Probes A &amp;amp; B automatically that the  previous statement cannot be true.  So, the undeniable existence of Gravity Probes A &amp;amp; B now proving the falsifiability of the theory of general relativity this means that by Karl Popper's rigorous standard the theory of relativity meets the requirements to be a science.  This is immediately obvious to anyone who has made an in depth study of Popper's work, the kind of study that all students of the pure sciences undergo, although strangely enough those students of those subjects which use an applied form of science never seem to be taught such things to the levels required.  Presumably this is because the standard of science they are taught is considerably less rigorous or in-depth than the standards expected of and required of students of the pure sciences.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::As the theory of relativity meets the requirements to be considered a science then this in turn means the first part of your statement:  ''&amp;quot;Relativity has a quasi-religious status&amp;quot;'' is itself false.  Science is not religion.  Religion requires hope, hope that what one believes is true.  Science requires absolute cynicism, it requires one to say &amp;quot;this is my idea, help me prove it wrong&amp;quot;.  To this date tests on the theory of general relativity has failed to show that it is wrong, and where measurements have been made to confirm or deny the accuracy of the general theory of relativity such results have shown that the predictions made by the theory of relativity are accurate to the observed effects well within the scientifically determined margins of error.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::The statement that ''&amp;quot;relativity is not going to help anyone&amp;quot;'' is, of course, as wrong as you can get.  The theory of relativity opened up a massive area of study, and there are no known limits to what may be achieved through such studies.  It is not hyperbole to state that the creation of the theory of relativity is as important, if not more important, than the discovery of the safe generation and transference of electricity.  This is known and accepted by everybody who has an in depth knowledge of the subject, knowledge gained through years of learning and self-teaching that begins after one leaves university, after one has gained the bedrock of knowledge required to begin teaching oneself the true depths of a subject.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::I beg of you this one thing.  Open up your Bible and truly study the price one pays for Arrogance and Pride.  Learn the lesson that the true Student and Teacher must come to the subjects they study in a state of Humility.  Of all the posts on the subject of general relativity each and every person that has made an in depth study of the subject have stated that the views you hold on general relativity are wrong.  The only person who states that your views are correct are yourself.  Look inside yourself and ask if your stubborn resistance to accept what others learned in the subject have to say on this matter is arrogance, pride or humility.(&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;by DanHutchin&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Dan, I accept your challenge.  I'll work on translating the Bible tonight and tomorrow with &amp;quot;a state of Humility.&amp;quot;  Thank you for suggesting it.  In the meantime, could you specify how the theory of relativity has helped anyone?  Electricity powers hospitals that save lives, and increase productivity and wealth which help the poor throughout the world.  You say relativity &amp;quot;is as important, if not more important.&amp;quot;  Specific examples, please?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:52, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Sorry for butting in here but I love science, I am a science major currently. In my mind God gave us the scientific method and the tools to explore his creation for his glory. We can debate the merits of relativity all day but the fact remains that if it is true it is part of God's creation and because of that, automatically gives it value. Plus, pure science in a lot of cases leads to applied science. I don't like arguments based on what we don't know. [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 22:00, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Ameda, that's fine, but surely you'd agree that unproductive theories or beliefs should not squeeze out productive ones.  Someone can use rhetoric to defend any belief or activity, from watching television to drinking beer.  One can spend hours explaining to an addict why he should, for example, stop smoking.  All the explaining in the world is not as powerful as this:  ''nothing good comes of it''.  Relativity has had nearly 100 years to help somebody, anybody.  How many more centuries should we give it priority over alternative, productive work?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:14, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::GPS, fiber optics, solar panels and PET scans don't count?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm amusingly reminded of what Benjamin Franklin said when asked what good was the then-freshly-invented hot-air balloon. &amp;quot;What good is a newborn baby?&amp;quot; That was 1783; powered flight didn't happen until 1903. If you don't see ''enough'' benefits from relativity yet, I'd say you need to embrace patience. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 22:20, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: And by &amp;quot;squeeze out&amp;quot; I assume you mean in funding? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I think it is worth it because it is an integral part of God's creation. Plus, I don't think that just because relativity is given grant money that necessarily means that it is taking it from money that would have gone to say genetically engineering bigger crops. There isn't a one-one correspondence. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree with a lot on here but honestly Andy, with all respect, I think DanHutchin is right. We all suffer from pride and from all I have read on here, from your brother Roger to Kate above, you are suffering from it big time on this issue. Think, is it really a coincidence that the first part of the Conservative Bible Project I translated was talking about humbling oneself and I did it just this very night? Sorry for the long response but know that it comes from the heart. [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 22:29, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Amen, Ameda.  I appreciate your advice for me to read the Bible more, and with a humbler heart.  I'd also like your advice about this.  If empirically the promotion of relativity leads people ''away'' from the Bible, would you still support the promotion of relativity?  A direct answer from your heart, please.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:43, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: From the heart, and '''hopefully''' my understanding of the Word, anything can lead people away from the Lord, even if &amp;quot;based&amp;quot; on the Word of God. What I mean by that is people can use and abuse anything, even the Bible to support xyz. ''You know how many times I see Peter Popoff ripping off my brothers and sisters in Christ for some &amp;quot;Miracle spring water&amp;quot;?'' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::If relativity is part of the fabric of the universe, and I do think that, then it was created by God just as much as the Bible, the stars, etc. and as I said can be used and abused. The only way science can lead one away from the Lord is if there isn't the secondary component to it, the spiritual one, the one stating that this was created by a being that created you and loves you. That is the only thing that needs to be addressed not relativity itself. Basically it seems like you are arguing that God's creation can lead people away from him? I don't think that is scriptural nor correct. [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 23:04, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::No, that's not what I'm saying, and I humbly requested a ''direct'' answer.  People who are taught and then believe relativity are less likely to read the Bible again, or as frequently.  If true (as we've seen on this site and in colleges), do you still support the promotion of relativity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I don't think that is what you're saying, but Ameda has a point:  if relativity is true, then God made it, so we can't dismiss it.  If it isn't true, and if it does lead people away from the Bible, then we shouldn't be talking about it - but we first need to decide whether relativity is true.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::And could I please see those statistics?  I believe relativity, and I read the Bible.  I think you're mistaking a correlation for causation:  we already know colleges try to move students away from the Bible, and they're where most people happen to learn relativity.  So, even though relativity has nothing to do with it, it's quite possible that people who study relativity are less likely to read the Bible because they've happened to spend years at liberal schools.  (Incidentally, that's a good reason to teach relativity here at Conservapedia!) --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 23:24, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Andy, you are trying to trap me into some black/white answer here. I believe that relativity is true and therefore when taught in all aspects will not lead people away from God. You might as well ask me the same thing concerning the Sun. Can it lead people away, sure, '''when''' it is couched in naturalistic philosophy. You are making some wild hypothetical based on nothing but your own encounters with vandals on this site, that is not empirical. I can easily make the same hypothetical concerning Conservapedia itself. I view this site as preaching the word of God but that doesn't mean that just because someone thinks less of Christianity after reading it then that means it is a problem with the site, it could be with the person not wanting to hear the truth. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::PS- People misunderstood me, I wasn't saying Andy was arguing that it simply reads like it as a consequence of what he is saying considering that relativity is correct and was designed by God. My opinion of course.[[User:Ameda|ameda]] 23:29, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) Don't let me jump into the middle of y'all's philosophical debate or anything, but there's a point on the table that needs resolving. Andy, your essay (yes, I know, still a work in progress) contains falsehoods. Are you at all interested in correcting them? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:31, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Field_theory&amp;diff=720670</id>
		<title>Talk:Field theory</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Field_theory&amp;diff=720670"/>
		<updated>2009-11-16T03:22:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Andy, I'm not going to undo something you've written, but a force field and action at a distance are the same thing.  Action at a distance means precisely that - one object, affecting another, without touching it.  A force field is precisely that - an object generates a field of force around it, which allows it to affect objects without touching them. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Action at a distance certainly is not the same as electromagnetic waves, which do not act instantaneously on a distance object as Newtonian gravity does.  Perhaps the meaning of &amp;quot;force field&amp;quot; is ambiguous (it's not defined in my dictionary).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:24, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: You're absolutely right.  Newtonian gravity is a theory which implies instant transmission of gravity, and Maxwell's equations set a speed limit.  However, both theories constitute &amp;quot;action at a distance,&amp;quot; and both constitute &amp;quot;field theories.&amp;quot;  The term &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; is used for theories like Newtonian gravity, Maxwell's electromagnetism, or quantum field theory BECAUSE they describe action at a distance - in opposition to theories like quantum chromodynamics, or general relativity as it is currently incorporated into the standard model, which describe forces as being carried by particles - photons, gravitons, etc. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:29, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::No, I don't think that's right, Jacob.  &amp;quot;Action at a distance&amp;quot; means instantaneous action.  Electromagnetic waves don't fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;Field theory&amp;quot; used to mean what you say, but I think today it connotes a &amp;quot;field&amp;quot; that takes time to travel ... as in &amp;quot;quantum field theory.&amp;quot;  I don't think a distinction is made between particles or waves; the key distinction is between instantaneous action versus action at the speed of light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:43, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We'll have to agree to disagree. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:44, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Could I ask you two to lower the temperature of this a bit?  The question of &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; is one that I was going to work on before all my time got sucked up into the black hole that is the general relativity article.  I put out requests to [[User:KSorenson]] and [[User:SaraT]] requesting their input, because they both have expertise in historical matters like this.  They both were kind enough to reply.  See their talk pages.  It seems that &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; probably didn't refer to transmission of force faster than the speed of light back in the 1600's, because such issues weren't considered important then.  And Newton's theory couldn't have been a &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; back then, because &amp;quot;vector fields&amp;quot; hadn't been invented.  The &amp;quot;gravitational field&amp;quot; got invented later, and Newton's theory became a &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; retroactively.  Whether Newton's gravitational field propagated faster than the speed of light isn't important; it's a classical (pre-1900) theory.  Some people were concerned with this issue, but it's been replaced by GR.  And Sara seems to say that Newton's concern over action at a distance was about other issues, namely, force between things not in physical contact.  We can say now that it refers to speed, but that doesn't seem to be what the issue was in the 1600s.  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 21:54, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Excellent points, PatrickD.  Jacob, I have an open mind about this.  But if you're right, I'm wondering why the term &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; is used for &amp;quot;quantum field theory&amp;quot; (which denies action-at-a-distance and relies on the never-found graviton particles), while classical &amp;quot;quantum theory&amp;quot; is not a field theory (it has action-at-a-distance and no gravitons).  Can you fit that difference in terminology to your explanation?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:57, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with Patrick; this isn't worth a big fight. Especially considering we're talking about a totally obsolete concept.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Action at a distance&amp;quot; is a figure of speech. All it means is an interaction where the mediator hasn't been identified yet. And it has nothing to do with instantaneous anything, so let's not confuse the question.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:To say a theory was &amp;quot;based on action at a distance&amp;quot; is not a meaningful collection of words, because &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; isn't a scientific principle. We might as well say the theory was based on lamb stew. Tasty, but not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't think this concept deserves a detailed article, any more than we'd write a detailed article on the luminiferous aether.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Overall, this article should be erased and replaced with a three-sentence definition and some links:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;A field theory is any [[theory]] in physics which describes a [[fundamental interaction]] in terms of a [[field]] that mediates that interaction. In an abstract field theory, a particle interacts in some way with a field, and then the field in turn interacts with another particle, thereby transferring some quantity ([[momentum]], [[energy]] or [[charge]], for instance) from one particle to another. Abstract field theories are considered obsolete in [[modern physics]], and have been replaced with [[metric theory|metric theories]] and gauge-invariant [[quantum field theory|quantum field theories]].&amp;quot; --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 22:11, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The term &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; is still frequently used, so we can't simply &amp;quot;punt&amp;quot; on this.  We should explain it as best we can.  Under your proposed definition, which is not the meaning of the original term, Newtonian gravity is not a field theory, correct?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:17, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Still frequently used by whom? I don't hear teenagers on the subway talking about it. It's a technical term and deserves a technical definition.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::What do you think the &amp;quot;meaning of the original term&amp;quot; was?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Newtonian gravity was, in Newton's formulation, an acceleration vector field theory, yes. Lagrange rewrote the equations to express it as a scalar field theory and that's what we used until 1916. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 22:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720669</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720669"/>
		<updated>2009-11-16T03:20:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GR's predictions are off by more than the margin of error, as we discussed in detail above; it and special relativity have absurd discontinuities; there are logical flaws, as in relativistic mass; it conflicts with QM; and it predicts gravitons that have never been found despite wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on it.  Relativity pulls people away from reading the Bible and relativity is pushed big-time by liberals.  It chills progress by intimidating people against criticizing it.  Other than that, the theory is pretty good!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Wow, Mr. Schlafly must really like this conversation, he actually made a joke. ;) jk [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 00:15, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks very much for taking the time to reply; I understand better now. Of course, some of that is unmitigated garbage, and we'll have plenty of chances to deal with it when I fix your [[theory of relativity]] article next week, so I'll skip some points for now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*''You'' discussed the fact that the predictions are outside the margin of error; ''I'' pointed out to you repeatedly that you were mistaken. I even offered to show you a plot. So come on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*To be frank, relativity doesn't ''conflict'' with quantum mechanics; the two theories don't overlap in any domains we can presently observe. But that's the problem. They don't overlap, so we don't know how we're going to understand systems where both gravity and quantum mechanics have non-negligible effects. It's entirely possible that every such region of spacetime is sequestered behind an event horizon; that's jokingly called the &amp;quot;convenient cosmic censorship hypothesis&amp;quot; by one of my colleagues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity doesn't predict gravitons at all. General relativity doesn't say anything about particles; the Standard Model predicts the existence of particles (like the Higgs). Gravitons are part of the various attempts to reformulate general relativity as a vector gauge theory, none of which have gotten there yet. And, uh, since none of the gauge theories have gotten there yet, Andy, ''not one dollar'' has been spent looking for gravitons. Because we don't know where to look. But we ''do'' know that if they could be detected by existing particle accelerators, they would've been. So if and when physicists decide to look for them, it's going to have to start with building an accelerator the size of our galaxy&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;WARNING: exaggeration for humorous effect, do not take literally.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and you'll have your chance to lobby the appropriations committee then.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Yes, studying relativity does take people away from time they could spend in religious activities. So does reading this site. Just give me a chance to copy-and-paste my contributions out before you shut it down to remove the temptation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, like I said, we'll have plenty of time to have these arguments when I start work on [[theory of relativity]]. All I ask is that you ''engage in constructive collaboration'' with me and whomever else chooses to help out, rather than pouncing on the &amp;quot;undo&amp;quot; button like you did when I rewrote [[black hole]]. We've both demonstrated that we're reasonable adults, I think; we can work together. Deal? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I've been quietly following this conversation today, but Kate beat me to the &amp;quot;Submit&amp;quot; button!  Well, I'll just point out that scientists can and frequently do &amp;quot;intimidat[e] people against criticizing&amp;quot; pretty much any theory, because they think it's right and they don't want to waste time.  It's quite likely close-mindedness, but it exists, and you can't take that as disproof of the theory.  I don't think someone who rejected Mendel or Maxwell would get pretty far today, either.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(Yes, I know Mendel has been amended with epigenetic inheritance, but I think you get my picture)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;.  It's just a bothersome red herring.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don't know anything about the Mercury data, but the most recent data I've seen here says general relativity might work; it's at the border of the range of error, and it's too precise for any of us to extrapolate.  General relativity could be spot on.  Or, a new theory being needed - if you're trying to construct a [[theory of everything]], a new theory definitely is needed to deal with [[quantum mechanics]]!  But, general relativity does predict a lot of things better than Newton.  Newton didn't explain everything, nor does general relativity - but I think you can find better stuff to attack it with than an extrapolation of Mercury orbital data. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:37, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Ugh, I really should be sleeping, but this is just such an engaging conversation I can't seem to break away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::If you make a measurement to test a theory and the measurement doesn't match the prediction, there are three possibilities. Either the measurement is wrong (&amp;quot;That's not Mercury, that's Saturn!&amp;quot;) or the theory is wrong (&amp;quot;Turns out gravity ''isn't'' really caused by leprechauns!&amp;quot;) or both are fundamentally right but you failed to take something into account (&amp;quot;We really shouldn't have assumed the sun is a sphere.&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The thing about the Mercury anomaly is that the observed and predicted numbers are ''insanely'' close together. So close as to be declared equal within the margin of error. So either general relativity is ''absolutely'' right and we accounted for ''everything'' — no physicist believes this, by the way — or general relativity is at least ''incredibly close'' to being right, so close that the factors we failed to account for are negligible at the scale of the Mercury anomaly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the thing is, Mercury is really thin sauce, as gravity goes. The fields are weak, and the prediction we're testing doesn't say anything terribly interesting about the theory. If you want to get a real feel for how general relativity holds up as a ''physical'' theory, and not just a mathematical one, you really need to look at the Gravity Probe B data. (Conflict of interest alert: I worked on that project.) That experiment didn't measure gravitation indirectly by observing the motion of a particle; it measured it ''directly'' by parallel transporting a vector in a closed loop around a region of curvature. We ''empirically'' measured the curvature of spacetime around a gravitating object (the Earth) and found it to be non-zero. Spacetime is ''not'' flat, massive bodies ''do'' curve spacetime, and the fundamental ''idea'' of general relativity reflects nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::General relativity doesn't just say that a falling body moves like such-n-such. It tells us ''why.'' And to see it dismissed out of hand because Andy doesn't care for the size of the error bars on the results of a radar study? That, I confess, rubs me the wrong way. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:51, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Great point about experimental error.  Before I ''really do'' sign off for the night, Kate, I'd like to give you an article suggestion:  [[Gravity_Probe_B]].  I'm enthusiastically looking forward to hearing how it was done! --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 01:00, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, I'm not the girl to write that one. It'd be 200 pages long and full of equations and whole paragraphs of me going &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome!&amp;quot;'' --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 01:09, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::On the contrary.  You are exactly the right girl to write this.  But not yet.  Do GR first, OK?  And you'll have to take off your instructor hat, and put on your explainer-for-lay-people hat, so that it won't be 200 pages long.  Whenever you reach the point where you think &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome''&amp;quot;, don't go into &amp;quot;and so I have to write the awesome equations&amp;quot;.  Go into &amp;quot;how can I convey the awesomeness to my reader?&amp;quot;.  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 11:32, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I don't want to perpetuate this debate, but I don't want a lack of response to be misinterpreted.  Relativity has quasi-religious status for many; they'll defend regardless of what the evidence is, regardless of its absurd inconsistencies, and regardless of its far-fetched assumptions and non-falsifiability.  I don't mind relativity, and look forward to reviewing the updated entry.  But open-mindedness is not a trait of many relativists, who will demonize anyone who points out its fairly obvious flaws.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::One way to evaluate religions, or quasi-religions, is to look at the fruit it bears.  What has it helped achieved?  In the case of relativity, it has produced nothing.  Nil.  Zippo.  After nearly 100 years and a ton of money.  If you find the math in relativity fun, great, but relativity is not going to help anyone.  It never has.  Pick up a Bible in between some equations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:31, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::''&amp;quot;Relativity has quasi-religious status for many&amp;amp;hellip;regardless of its far-fetched assumptions and non-falsifiability.&amp;quot;''  As has already been shown repeatedly by those knowledgeable and qualified in the subject such as KSorenson the theory of general relativity is eminently falsifiable.  For instance the two gravity probes (GP-A and GP-B) were launched specifically to measure rate change of a clock in lower gravity and space-time curvature near the Earth respectively, both experiments specifically testing the theory of relativity.  As both experiments were to test the theory of relativity this means that the theory of relativity meets the requirements to be considered falsifiable.  This is as patently obvious as stating that 2+2=4.  If the theory of relativity is not falsifiable then no experiment can exist to test it.  The existence of Gravity Probes A &amp;amp; B automatically that the  previous statement cannot be true.  So, the undeniable existence of Gravity Probes A &amp;amp; B now proving the falsifiability of the theory of general relativity this means that by Karl Popper's rigorous standard the theory of relativity meets the requirements to be a science.  This is immediately obvious to anyone who has made an in depth study of Popper's work, the kind of study that all students of the pure sciences undergo, although strangely enough those students of those subjects which use an applied form of science never seem to be taught such things to the levels required.  Presumably this is because the standard of science they are taught is considerably less rigorous or in-depth than the standards expected of and required of students of the pure sciences.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::As the theory of relativity meets the requirements to be considered a science then this in turn means the first part of your statement:  ''&amp;quot;Relativity has a quasi-religious status&amp;quot;'' is itself false.  Science is not religion.  Religion requires hope, hope that what one believes is true.  Science requires absolute cynicism, it requires one to say &amp;quot;this is my idea, help me prove it wrong&amp;quot;.  To this date tests on the theory of general relativity has failed to show that it is wrong, and where measurements have been made to confirm or deny the accuracy of the general theory of relativity such results have shown that the predictions made by the theory of relativity are accurate to the observed effects well within the scientifically determined margins of error.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::The statement that ''&amp;quot;relativity is not going to help anyone&amp;quot;'' is, of course, as wrong as you can get.  The theory of relativity opened up a massive area of study, and there are no known limits to what may be achieved through such studies.  It is not hyperbole to state that the creation of the theory of relativity is as important, if not more important, than the discovery of the safe generation and transference of electricity.  This is known and accepted by everybody who has an in depth knowledge of the subject, knowledge gained through years of learning and self-teaching that begins after one leaves university, after one has gained the bedrock of knowledge required to begin teaching oneself the true depths of a subject.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::I beg of you this one thing.  Open up your Bible and truly study the price one pays for Arrogance and Pride.  Learn the lesson that the true Student and Teacher must come to the subjects they study in a state of Humility.  Of all the posts on the subject of general relativity each and every person that has made an in depth study of the subject have stated that the views you hold on general relativity are wrong.  The only person who states that your views are correct are yourself.  Look inside yourself and ask if your stubborn resistance to accept what others learned in the subject have to say on this matter is arrogance, pride or humility.(&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;by DanHutchin&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Dan, I accept your challenge.  I'll work on translating the Bible tonight and tomorrow with &amp;quot;a state of Humility.&amp;quot;  Thank you for suggesting it.  In the meantime, could you specify how the theory of relativity has helped anyone?  Electricity powers hospitals that save lives, and increase productivity and wealth which help the poor throughout the world.  You say relativity &amp;quot;is as important, if not more important.&amp;quot;  Specific examples, please?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:52, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Sorry for butting in here but I love science, I am a science major currently. In my mind God gave us the scientific method and the tools to explore his creation for his glory. We can debate the merits of relativity all day but the fact remains that if it is true it is part of God's creation and because of that, automatically gives it value. Plus, pure science in a lot of cases leads to applied science. I don't like arguments based on what we don't know. [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 22:00, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Ameda, that's fine, but surely you'd agree that unproductive theories or beliefs should not squeeze out productive ones.  Someone can use rhetoric to defend any belief or activity, from watching television to drinking beer.  One can spend hours explaining to an addict why he should, for example, stop smoking.  All the explaining in the world is not as powerful as this:  ''nothing good comes of it''.  Relativity has had nearly 100 years to help somebody, anybody.  How many more centuries should we give it priority over alternative, productive work?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:14, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::GPS, fiber optics, solar panels and PET scans don't count?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm amusingly reminded of what Benjamin Franklin said when asked what good was the then-freshly-invented hot-air balloon. &amp;quot;What good is a newborn baby?&amp;quot; That was 1783; powered flight didn't happen until 1903. If you don't see ''enough'' benefits from relativity yet, I'd say you need to embrace patience. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 22:20, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Field_theory&amp;diff=720666</id>
		<title>Talk:Field theory</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Field_theory&amp;diff=720666"/>
		<updated>2009-11-16T03:11:31Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Andy, I'm not going to undo something you've written, but a force field and action at a distance are the same thing.  Action at a distance means precisely that - one object, affecting another, without touching it.  A force field is precisely that - an object generates a field of force around it, which allows it to affect objects without touching them. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Action at a distance certainly is not the same as electromagnetic waves, which do not act instantaneously on a distance object as Newtonian gravity does.  Perhaps the meaning of &amp;quot;force field&amp;quot; is ambiguous (it's not defined in my dictionary).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:24, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: You're absolutely right.  Newtonian gravity is a theory which implies instant transmission of gravity, and Maxwell's equations set a speed limit.  However, both theories constitute &amp;quot;action at a distance,&amp;quot; and both constitute &amp;quot;field theories.&amp;quot;  The term &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; is used for theories like Newtonian gravity, Maxwell's electromagnetism, or quantum field theory BECAUSE they describe action at a distance - in opposition to theories like quantum chromodynamics, or general relativity as it is currently incorporated into the standard model, which describe forces as being carried by particles - photons, gravitons, etc. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:29, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::No, I don't think that's right, Jacob.  &amp;quot;Action at a distance&amp;quot; means instantaneous action.  Electromagnetic waves don't fit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;Field theory&amp;quot; used to mean what you say, but I think today it connotes a &amp;quot;field&amp;quot; that takes time to travel ... as in &amp;quot;quantum field theory.&amp;quot;  I don't think a distinction is made between particles or waves; the key distinction is between instantaneous action versus action at the speed of light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:43, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We'll have to agree to disagree. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:44, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Could I ask you two to lower the temperature of this a bit?  The question of &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; is one that I was going to work on before all my time got sucked up into the black hole that is the general relativity article.  I put out requests to [[User:KSorenson]] and [[User:SaraT]] requesting their input, because they both have expertise in historical matters like this.  They both were kind enough to reply.  See their talk pages.  It seems that &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; probably didn't refer to transmission of force faster than the speed of light back in the 1600's, because such issues weren't considered important then.  And Newton's theory couldn't have been a &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; back then, because &amp;quot;vector fields&amp;quot; hadn't been invented.  The &amp;quot;gravitational field&amp;quot; got invented later, and Newton's theory became a &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; retroactively.  Whether Newton's gravitational field propagated faster than the speed of light isn't important; it's a classical (pre-1900) theory.  Some people were concerned with this issue, but it's been replaced by GR.  And Sara seems to say that Newton's concern over action at a distance was about other issues, namely, force between things not in physical contact.  We can say now that it refers to speed, but that doesn't seem to be what the issue was in the 1600s.  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 21:54, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Excellent points, PatrickD.  Jacob, I have an open mind about this.  But if you're right, I'm wondering why the term &amp;quot;field theory&amp;quot; is used for &amp;quot;quantum field theory&amp;quot; (which denies action-at-a-distance and relies on the never-found graviton particles), while classical &amp;quot;quantum theory&amp;quot; is not a field theory (it has action-at-a-distance and no gravitons).  Can you fit that difference in terminology to your explanation?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:57, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with Patrick; this isn't worth a big fight. Especially considering we're talking about a totally obsolete concept.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Action at a distance&amp;quot; is a figure of speech. All it means is an interaction where the mediator hasn't been identified yet. And it has nothing to do with instantaneous anything, so let's not confuse the question.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:To say a theory was &amp;quot;based on action at a distance&amp;quot; is not a meaningful collection of words, because &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; isn't a scientific principle. We might as well say the theory was based on lamb stew. Tasty, but not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't think this concept deserves a detailed article, any more than we'd write a detailed article on the luminiferous aether.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Overall, this article should be erased and replaced with a three-sentence definition and some links:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;A field theory is any [[theory]] in physics which describes a [[fundamental interaction]] in terms of a [[field]] that mediates that interaction. In an abstract field theory, a particle interacts in some way with a field, and then the field in turn interacts with another particle, thereby transferring some quantity ([[momentum]], [[energy]] or [[charge]], for instance) from one particle to another. Abstract field theories are considered obsolete in [[modern physics]], and have been replaced with [[metric theory|metric theories]] and gauge-invariant [[quantum field theory|quantum field theories]].&amp;quot; --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 22:11, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720586</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720586"/>
		<updated>2009-11-16T00:05:23Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Need input&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm always on the lookout for math articles that would actually be useful to write, so let me know if there's anything that could help give background for this article -- I can write about geodesics or curvature or whatever else comes in here (these both have pages already, but they're rather silly). --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 19:51, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, thank you so much for offering. I spent some time this afternoon thinking about the next section; it's obviously more math-intensive than the first. The subjects I'm going to have to at least ''touch on'' in order to write it are obviously curvature as a concept, parallel transport as a way to quantify curvature and the metric tensor as an extension of the Pythagorean theorem. I don't ''want'' to get into tensor contraction (the Riemann-&amp;gt;Ricci thing) unless I have to to explain that the Einstein tensor only represents ''part'' of the curvature of spacetime, and the other part is where gravitational radiation is expected to appear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Any of that sound like ripe picking for math articles? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Sure, I'll work on [[curvature]] (pretty sure I can improve what's on there now!).  I'm thinking I'll start off talking about curvature of hypersurfaces in R^3 and the idea of parallel transport (illustrated on the round 2-sphere, probably), then define the Riemann curvature tensor (roughly -- we'll see about actually defining tensors) via holonomy. My thinking is that it probably then makes most sense to define sectional curvatures next and then say a bit about scalar and Ricci curvature.  This all comes with the disclaimer that my expository abilities aren't really up to par, but I'll try to at least get the groundwork in place. I probably won't really start until Monday, but I'll see if I can't get a start tomorrow. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 20:23, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: HA! Yeah, I'd say we can do better than that for [[curvature]]. ;-) If it were me writing it (and I'm glad it's not; thank you) from the perspective of a physicist, the point I'd emphasize is that it is ''not'' possible to put a consistent set of Cartesian coordinates onto a curved surface. If the surface is curved, then it cannot be flattened by a coordinate transform, period. So you ''have'' to deal with the curvature. That's the point I emphasize when I do &amp;quot;differential geometry for dummies.&amp;quot; But of course, your article won't be for budding physicists, it'll be for budding mathematicians or anybody who's interested. So I'll support whatever choice you make. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) My take on this, and what I'm thinking of doing for my work on this article (feel free to steer me in a different direction if you disagree) is:&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat coordinate systems.  (''We'' know this as Christoffel symbols = 0, but that's beyond our scope for the article.)  When dealing with spacetime, if you are in a flat coordinate system, you don't feel any &amp;quot;fictitious forces&amp;quot; (accelerations).  Your system is intertial.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved coordinate systems.  (Nonzero Christoffel symbols, geodesics are hairy.)  When dealing with spacetime, you feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat manifolds (Riemann=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved manifolds (Riemann !=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A flat manifold may have flat or curved coordinate systems.  In physics, we could be in a rotating or accelerating frame of reference.  But we can always find a flat coordinate system.  That is, the curvature of the coordinate system can be &amp;quot;transformed away&amp;quot; (for example, by stepping off the amusement park ride.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A curved manifold has '''NO''' flat coordinate systems.  At least not globally.  You can't step outside.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that gravity is really just a fictitious force (equivalence principle), and it arises because the spacetime manifold itself is curved.  It can't be globally transformed away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, I come at this from a physicist's perspective (though my major was in math.)  It sounds as though Mark is planning the mathematicians' approach for the curvature article.  The two articles will make interesting, and excellent, reading.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 21:32, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:These suggestions sounds good to me -- I don't think the two approaches are mutually exclusive, either.  I can start off talking about &amp;quot;flat coordinate systems&amp;quot; and maybe even throw in something about map projections (the Mercator kind, I mean) and the theorema egregium (this is supposed to be written for [[Majoring in Mathematics]] anyway, though JacobB who suggested it seems to have disappeared).  This can all be integrated with what I'll say about surfaces in R^3.  I'm a bit wary of saying much about Christoffel symbols since then we'd have to say a bit about connections, which I'd rather avoid -- I think geodesics are a more intuitive thing, and require a lot less other stuff to define if we're willing to wave our hands a bit (but if they're needed for the relativity article I can certainly define).  Then I can start babbling about parallel transport and then actually define the curvature tensor.  It's probably better if one of you write the physics-y stuff about fictitious forces here, but I can take a shot at it.  --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 21:42, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Yay! New intro!==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Patrick, ''love'' the new intro section! Got a question though, stylistically. I'm really unaccustomed to seeing theories (like general relativity or quantum mechanics, not proper-named ones) capitalized. With, of course, the anomalous exception of the Standard Model, but I think we write it that way 'cause that's how it's pronounced. Do we want to lowercase theories as the rule, or uppercase them?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I support all the suggestions y'all have floated here; it all sounds good to me. As I wrote the section today on calculating the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust, I kept asking myself, &amp;quot;If I were a freshman and somebody was telling me about this, what would I want them to ''omit?&amp;quot;'' I'm not saying you guys should stick to that guideline too, just sharing what mine was for the edification of all. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:52, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:OK, I'm convinced.  While I was writing that, I kept thinking &amp;quot;Why am I capitalizing this all over the place?  Because that's how it's done in other places.  But it's kind of dumb.&amp;quot;  So the policy ought to be: special rel and general rel are lower case, but article titles are upper case.  I think.  Is that the CP policy?  Title case?  Initial case?  I'll look around.  And I'll fix it.  Give me a few minutes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As far as &amp;quot;CP can't explain&amp;quot;, I meant this in the sense of &amp;quot;It's out of the scope of CP to cover this at the full postgrad level.&amp;quot;  I think an encyclopedia ''could'', in principle, give a full treatment, but I doubt that even Britannica does so.  Could someone come up with a way of saying &amp;quot;it's out of the scope/charter of CP&amp;quot; without appearing to have CP diss itself? [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 22:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm really not sure what house style is here; I looked around for a guide briefly but didn't stumble across one. The title of ''this'' article is sentence-case, but that's just one data point. I'm really fine either way, I just like consistency.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yeah, I knew exactly what you meant with the &amp;quot;CP can't&amp;quot; part. I just thought it ''could'' be misinterpreted, y'know? I had no problem with the sentiment, just the possible interpretation of it. If we made it more verbose and said something like &amp;quot;Conservapedia is not a textbook,&amp;quot; you know, along those lines, I think that could work. But at the same time, a single ''textbook'' can't explain ''all'' of general relativity. (Though I bet Misner, Thorne and Wheeler would slap my mouth for saying that. Or worse, they'd just hit me with their enormous, enormous book.) --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Intro and related articles suggestions==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As I reread the intro over my morning coffee, a couple thoughts spring to mind. I'd like to hear what you guys think.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*One of the light-bulb moments for me, as an undergrad, was realizing the qualitative difference between metric and field theories. A field theory says that a field exists in space, and that objects within that field will take on some property as a consequence of being in that field. For gravity, it's a vector field and objects in it will accelerate. A metric theory says that spacetime ''itself'' takes on certain properties, and objects always behave the same ways; their behavior only looks different because we can't directly observe the properties of the spacetime around them. I'm explaining this poorly (see above, re: coffee), but it was a real &amp;quot;oh I get it now&amp;quot; moment for me as an undergrad. Maybe this distinction deserves some attention?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Which brings me to my second point: What do you guys think of having one article each for vector field theory, metric theory, quantum field theory and gauge theory? I'm not talking about in-depth articles like this one; just simple, qualitative definitions. A vector field theory says there's an unobservable field there, and things in it will take on some potential energy from it. A metric theory says that spacetime is not uniform (curvature, torsion, etc) and that differences in apparent motion are caused by this observable distortion. A quantum field theory says fields work through the exchange of force particles, like little footballs being thrown around. A gauge theory is … actually pretty hard to explain simply. Anyway, I'm thinking in terms of basic physics concepts right now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Speaking of which: Lagrangian mechanics. We do have [[Lagrangian]]; it's just a stub, but I think we should do a qualitative introduction to the subject. We should make the point that the classical, Newtonian mechanics taught in high school is basically never used because it's not practical, but that the Lagrangian reformulation is the foundation of all of modern mechanics. (Yes, I know, Hamiltonians in quantum mechanics, but quantum mechanics makes my head hurt. I'm a macro-scale girl.) The principle of least action basically says, roughly speaking, that ''nature is lazy,'' and will only do what is absolutely required to get a particle from state A to state B, and that's a basic premise of physics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, just some thoughts. I'd like a student who reads one of the physics articles here to come away with a basic understanding of what the subject of the article ''means,'' and I think it'd be cool if we could present the information in such a way that their understanding of the subtleties of the subject depends linearly on how far into the article they read.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Please, create the articles you mentioned above.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:50, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Question==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Do you guys (and girls, if any are out there) think anybody's reading this stuff? It's a lot of work, and after doing a little research I've begun to have doubts about whether this material will ever actually reach the target audience. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on that. Feel free to email me if you prefer. Thanks. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720582</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720582"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T23:51:30Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GR's predictions are off by more than the margin of error, as we discussed in detail above; it and special relativity have absurd discontinuities; there are logical flaws, as in relativistic mass; it conflicts with QM; and it predicts gravitons that have never been found despite wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on it.  Relativity pulls people away from reading the Bible and relativity is pushed big-time by liberals.  It chills progress by intimidating people against criticizing it.  Other than that, the theory is pretty good!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Wow, Mr. Schlafly must really like this conversation, he actually made a joke. ;) jk [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 00:15, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks very much for taking the time to reply; I understand better now. Of course, some of that is unmitigated garbage, and we'll have plenty of chances to deal with it when I fix your [[theory of relativity]] article next week, so I'll skip some points for now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*''You'' discussed the fact that the predictions are outside the margin of error; ''I'' pointed out to you repeatedly that you were mistaken. I even offered to show you a plot. So come on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*To be frank, relativity doesn't ''conflict'' with quantum mechanics; the two theories don't overlap in any domains we can presently observe. But that's the problem. They don't overlap, so we don't know how we're going to understand systems where both gravity and quantum mechanics have non-negligible effects. It's entirely possible that every such region of spacetime is sequestered behind an event horizon; that's jokingly called the &amp;quot;convenient cosmic censorship hypothesis&amp;quot; by one of my colleagues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity doesn't predict gravitons at all. General relativity doesn't say anything about particles; the Standard Model predicts the existence of particles (like the Higgs). Gravitons are part of the various attempts to reformulate general relativity as a vector gauge theory, none of which have gotten there yet. And, uh, since none of the gauge theories have gotten there yet, Andy, ''not one dollar'' has been spent looking for gravitons. Because we don't know where to look. But we ''do'' know that if they could be detected by existing particle accelerators, they would've been. So if and when physicists decide to look for them, it's going to have to start with building an accelerator the size of our galaxy&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;WARNING: exaggeration for humorous effect, do not take literally.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and you'll have your chance to lobby the appropriations committee then.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Yes, studying relativity does take people away from time they could spend in religious activities. So does reading this site. Just give me a chance to copy-and-paste my contributions out before you shut it down to remove the temptation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, like I said, we'll have plenty of time to have these arguments when I start work on [[theory of relativity]]. All I ask is that you ''engage in constructive collaboration'' with me and whomever else chooses to help out, rather than pouncing on the &amp;quot;undo&amp;quot; button like you did when I rewrote [[black hole]]. We've both demonstrated that we're reasonable adults, I think; we can work together. Deal? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I've been quietly following this conversation today, but Kate beat me to the &amp;quot;Submit&amp;quot; button!  Well, I'll just point out that scientists can and frequently do &amp;quot;intimidat[e] people against criticizing&amp;quot; pretty much any theory, because they think it's right and they don't want to waste time.  It's quite likely close-mindedness, but it exists, and you can't take that as disproof of the theory.  I don't think someone who rejected Mendel or Maxwell would get pretty far today, either.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(Yes, I know Mendel has been amended with epigenetic inheritance, but I think you get my picture)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;.  It's just a bothersome red herring.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don't know anything about the Mercury data, but the most recent data I've seen here says general relativity might work; it's at the border of the range of error, and it's too precise for any of us to extrapolate.  General relativity could be spot on.  Or, a new theory being needed - if you're trying to construct a [[theory of everything]], a new theory definitely is needed to deal with [[quantum mechanics]]!  But, general relativity does predict a lot of things better than Newton.  Newton didn't explain everything, nor does general relativity - but I think you can find better stuff to attack it with than an extrapolation of Mercury orbital data. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:37, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Ugh, I really should be sleeping, but this is just such an engaging conversation I can't seem to break away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::If you make a measurement to test a theory and the measurement doesn't match the prediction, there are three possibilities. Either the measurement is wrong (&amp;quot;That's not Mercury, that's Saturn!&amp;quot;) or the theory is wrong (&amp;quot;Turns out gravity ''isn't'' really caused by leprechauns!&amp;quot;) or both are fundamentally right but you failed to take something into account (&amp;quot;We really shouldn't have assumed the sun is a sphere.&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The thing about the Mercury anomaly is that the observed and predicted numbers are ''insanely'' close together. So close as to be declared equal within the margin of error. So either general relativity is ''absolutely'' right and we accounted for ''everything'' — no physicist believes this, by the way — or general relativity is at least ''incredibly close'' to being right, so close that the factors we failed to account for are negligible at the scale of the Mercury anomaly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the thing is, Mercury is really thin sauce, as gravity goes. The fields are weak, and the prediction we're testing doesn't say anything terribly interesting about the theory. If you want to get a real feel for how general relativity holds up as a ''physical'' theory, and not just a mathematical one, you really need to look at the Gravity Probe B data. (Conflict of interest alert: I worked on that project.) That experiment didn't measure gravitation indirectly by observing the motion of a particle; it measured it ''directly'' by parallel transporting a vector in a closed loop around a region of curvature. We ''empirically'' measured the curvature of spacetime around a gravitating object (the Earth) and found it to be non-zero. Spacetime is ''not'' flat, massive bodies ''do'' curve spacetime, and the fundamental ''idea'' of general relativity reflects nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::General relativity doesn't just say that a falling body moves like such-n-such. It tells us ''why.'' And to see it dismissed out of hand because Andy doesn't care for the size of the error bars on the results of a radar study? That, I confess, rubs me the wrong way. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:51, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Great point about experimental error.  Before I ''really do'' sign off for the night, Kate, I'd like to give you an article suggestion:  [[Gravity_Probe_B]].  I'm enthusiastically looking forward to hearing how it was done! --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 01:00, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, I'm not the girl to write that one. It'd be 200 pages long and full of equations and whole paragraphs of me going &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome!&amp;quot;'' --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 01:09, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::On the contrary.  You are exactly the right girl to write this.  But not yet.  Do GR first, OK?  And you'll have to take off your instructor hat, and put on your explainer-for-lay-people hat, so that it won't be 200 pages long.  Whenever you reach the point where you think &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome''&amp;quot;, don't go into &amp;quot;and so I have to write the awesome equations&amp;quot;.  Go into &amp;quot;how can I convey the awesomeness to my reader?&amp;quot;.  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 11:32, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::I don't want to perpetuate this debate, but I don't want a lack of response to be misinterpreted.  Relativity has quasi-religious status for many; they'll defend regardless of what the evidence is, regardless of its absurd inconsistencies, and regardless of its far-fetched assumptions and non-falsifiability.  I don't mind relativity, and look forward to reviewing the updated entry.  But open-mindedness is not a trait of many relativists, who will demonize anyone who points out its fairly obvious flaws.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::One way to evaluate religions, or quasi-religions, is to look at the fruit it bears.  What has it helped achieved?  In the case of relativity, it has produced nothing.  Nil.  Zippo.  After nearly 100 years and a ton of money.  If you find the math in relativity fun, great, but relativity is not going to help anyone.  It never has.  Pick up a Bible in between some equations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:31, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Oh, Andy. No one could have possibly misinterpreted your lack of response. You're nothing if not … well, let's just go with &amp;quot;consistent.&amp;quot; With love, Kate. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:51, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720514</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720514"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T19:44:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Intro to the metric tensor&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that general relativity is to special relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of elativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity, like [[quantum mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, general relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General relativity and quantum mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  Hence this article can't possibly give a comprehensive explation of general relativity at the expert level.  But we will attempt to give a rough outline, for lay people, of the general relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Modern science does not say that Newtonian (classical) gravity is wrong.  It is obviously very very nearly correct.  In the weak field approximation, such as one finds in our solar system, the differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity are miniscule.  It takes very sensitive tests to show the difference.  The history of those tests is a fascinating subject, and will be covered near the end of this article.  But in all tests conducted so far, where there are discrepancies between the predictions of general relativity and Newtonian gravity (or other competing theories for that matter), experimental results have shown general relativity to be a better description.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Outside of the solar system, one can find stronger gravitational fields, and other phenomena, such as quasars and neutron stars, that permit even more definitive tests.  General relativity appears to pass those tests as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not to say, by any means, that general relativity is the ultimate, perfect theory.  It has never been unified with modern formulations of quantum mechanics, and it is therefore known to be incorrect at extremely small scales.  Just as Newtonian gravity is very nearly correct, and completely correct for its time, general relativity is believed to be very nearly correct, but not completely so.  Contemporary speculation on the next step involves extremely esoteric notions such as string theory, gravitons, and &amp;quot;quantum loop gravity&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the [[equivalence principle]] and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates special relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Figure 1 shows a &amp;quot;spacetime diagram&amp;quot;, with my house, my neighbor's house, and my neighbor walking from his house to mine.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This is the same kind of diagram that is used in explanations of special relativity.  The &amp;quot;spacetime&amp;quot; is sometimes called &amp;quot;Minkowski space&amp;quot;.  Spacetime is actually four-dimensional, but we can only show two dimensions, so we leave out y and z.  The single x spatial coordinate is good enough for our purposes, so the diagram has x going from left to right, and t (time) going upward.  For the purposes of this explanation, don't worry about the considerations of special relativity such as the speed of light, the Lorentz transform, or light cones.  None of that is important just now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagram shows the calibration, in space (that is, x) and time.  These measurements are made with respect to my (stationary) frame of reference.  My house is at x=0, and my neighbor's house is at x=1250 (feet).  My neighbor walks at 250 feet per minute.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagram shows some &amp;quot;events&amp;quot;&amp;amp;mdash;my house, now; my house, 5 minutes from now; and my neighbor's house now and 5 minutes from now.  The diagonal line depicts my neighbor walking from his house to mine, arriving 5 minutes from now.  That line is called his ''world line''.  The line going straight up in my house is my own world line (I'm sitting at home.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A car is driving down the street, from left to right.  Figure 2 shows the same four events and two world lines, but with different calibration&amp;amp;mdash;the car's own coordinate system.  The car is driving 500 feet per minute, but in the opposite direction.  The event of my neighbor's arrival at my house is now at x=-2500.  It's way behind the car, though the car was directly in front of my house at t=0.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Because the car's frame of reference is in motion, the calibration lines in figure 2 are not perpendicular.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  But there is something very important to notice about the two coordinate systems:  They are ''flat''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The words &amp;quot;flat&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;curved&amp;quot; used in this article are the same terms used by differential topology experts.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  The flatness comes from the fact that the calibration lines are straight and parallel.  The boxes created by the lines are parallelograms.  But note that the lines don't have to be perpendicular, and the boxes don't have to be rectangles.  Straight parallel lines and parallelograms are all that is required.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These two flat coordinate systems have a very important physical property:  Neither I, sitting at home, nor a passenger in the car, experiences any &amp;quot;[[fictitious force]]s&amp;quot;.  That is, people in the car don't feel any recoil from acceleration, or centrifugal force, or Coriolis force.  These frames of reference are said to be ''inertial''.  This leads to an important principle of geometrical physics:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*''Inertial frames of reference have flat coordinate systems.  Flat coordinate systems lead to an absence of fictitious forces.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now consider figure 3.  The coordinate system is once again that of the car, but the car is accelerating, starting at a standstill in front of my house at t=0.  Its world line is curved.  Once again, it crosses paths with my neighbor.  This case is very different from the other two.  The calibration lines are curved, and the boxes that they create are not parallelograms.  This coordinate system is ''curved''.  Another thing to notice is that people in the car will feel a fictitious force&amp;amp;mdash;a &amp;quot;recoil&amp;quot; force agains the back of the seat.  This frame of reference is not inertial.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*''Accelerating frames of reference have curved coordinate systems.  Curved coordinate systems lead to fictitious forces.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: .... !!!! We need these three diagrams, of course.  I'll do them, but they will take a lot of work.  If anyone else has the tools and expertise to do this, and more skill than I, feel free to make them, or to communicate with me (PatrickD).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We will recall that the Einstein field equations can be written as a single tensor equation:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The right side of the equation consists of some constants and the ''stress-energy tensor,'' described in significant detail in the [[#The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor|previous section]]. The right side of the equation is the &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; side. All matter and energy in a region of space is described by the right side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation, then, is the &amp;quot;space&amp;quot; side. Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move. So the left side of the Einstein field equation must necessarily describe the curvature of spacetime in the presence of matter and energy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Some assumptions about the universe====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before we proceed into a discussion of what curvature is and how the Einstein equation describes it, we must first pause to state some fundamental assumptions about the universe.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;As we will later see, these assumptions may in fact turn out not to be valid for all of spacetime. It may be more accurate, although significantly less satisfying, to say that we assume these things to be true about spacetime, ''except where they aren't.''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The first assumption we're going to make is that spacetime is ''continuous.'' In essence, this means that for any event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; in spacetime — that is, any point in space and moment in time — there exists some local neighborhood of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where the intrinsic properties of spacetime differ from those at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by only an infinitesimal amount.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second assumption we're going to make is that spacetime is ''differentiable'' everywhere. In other words, the geometry of spacetime doesn't have any sharp creases in it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we hold these two assumptions to be true, then a convenient property of spacetime emerges: Given any event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, there exists a local neighborhood where spacetime can be treated as ''flat,'' that is, having zero curvature. It is not necessarily true that ''all'' of spacetime be flat — in fact, it most definitely is not — but given any event in spacetime, there exists ''some neighborhood'' around it that is flat. This neighborhood may be arbitrarily small in both time and space, but it is guaranteed to exist as long as our two assumptions remain valid.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With these two assumptions and this convenient property in hand, we will now examine what it means to say that spacetime is curved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Flatness versus curvature====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by considering the simplest possible geometry&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Well, the simplest possible ''interesting'' geometry, anyway.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;: the [[Euclidean plane]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Euclidean plane is an infinite, flat, two-dimensional surface. A sheet of paper is a good approximation of the Euclidean plane. Onto this plane, we can project a set of [[Cartesian coordinates]]. By &amp;quot;Cartesian,&amp;quot; we mean that the coordinate axes are straight lines, that they are perpendicular, and that the unit lengths of the axes are equal. A fancier term for a Cartesian coordinate system is an ''orthonormal basis.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note carefully the distinction between the Euclidean plane and Cartesian coordinates. The plane exists as a thing in and of itself, just as a blank piece of paper does. It has certain properties, which we'll get into below. Those properties are ''intrinsic'' to the plane. That is, the properties don't have anything to do with the coordinates we project onto the plane. The plane is a geometric object, and the coordinates are the method by which we ''measure'' the plane. (The emphasis on the word ''measure'' there is not accidental; please keep this idea in the foreground of your mind as we continue.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cartesian coordinates are not the only coordinates we can use in the Euclidean plane. For example, instead of having axes that are perpendicular to each other, we could choose axes that are straight lines, but that meet at some non-perpendicular angle. These types of coordinates are called ''oblique.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For that matter, we're not bound to use straight-line coordinates at all. We could instead choose [[polar coordinates]], wherein every point on the plane is described by a distance from a fixed but arbitrary point and an angle from a fixed but arbitrary direction. Polar coordinates are often more convenient than Cartesian coordinates. For example, when navigating a ship on the ocean, the location of a fixed point is usually described in terms of a ''bearing'' and a ''distance,'' where the distance is the straight-line distance from the ship to the point, and the bearing is the clockwise angle relative to the direction in which the ship is sailing. Polar coordinates in two and three dimensions are often used in physics for similar reasons.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But there's a fundamental problem with polar coordinates that is not present with Cartesian coordinates. In Cartesian coordinates, every point on the Euclidean plane is identified by ''exactly one'' set of real numbers: there is precisely one set of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates for every point, and every point corresponds to precisely one set of coordinates.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not true in polar coordinates. What are the unique polar coordinates for the origin? The radial distance is obviously zero, but what is the angle? In actuality, if the radial distance is zero, ''any'' angle can be used, and the coordinates will identify the same point. The one-to-one correspondence between points in the plane and pairs of coordinates breaks down at the origin.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In mathematical terms, polar coordinates in the Euclidean plane have a ''coordinate singularity'' at the origin. A coordinate singularity is a point in space where ambiguities are introduced, not because of some intrinsic property of space, but because of the coordinate basis you chose.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So clearly there may exist a reason to choose one coordinate system over another when ''measuring'' — there's that word again — the Euclidean plane. Polar coordinates have a singularity at the origin — in this case, a point of undefined angle — while Cartesian coordinates have no such singularities anywhere. So there may be good reason to choose Cartesian coordinates over polar coordinates when measuring the Euclidean plane.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fortunately, this is always possible. The Euclidean plane can ''always'' be measured by Cartesian coordinates; that is, coordinates wherein the axes are straight and perpendicular at their intersection, and where ''lines of constant coordinate'' — picture the grid on a sheet of graph paper — are always a constant distance apart no matter where you measure them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine taking a piece of graph paper, which is printed in a pattern that lets us easily visualize the Cartesian coordinate system, and rolling it into a cylinder. Do any creases appear in the paper? No, it remains smooth all over. Do the lines printed on the paper remain a constant distance apart everywhere? Yes, they do. In technical mathematical terms, then, the surface of a cylinder is ''flat.'' That is, it can be measured by an orthonormal basis, and there is everywhere a one-to-one correspondence between sets of coordinates and points on the surface. It's possible ''not'' to use an orthonormal basis to measure the surface; one might reasonably choose polar coordinates, or some other arbitrary coordinate system, if it's more convenient. But whichever basis is actually used, it's always ''possible'' to switch to an orthonormal basis instead.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine wrapping a sheet of graph paper around a basketball. Does the paper remain smooth? No, if we press it down, creases appear. Do the lines on the paper remain parallel? No, they have to bend in order to conform the paper to the shape of the ball. In the same technical mathematical terms, the surface of a sphere is ''not flat.'' It's ''curved.'' That is, it is not possible to measure the surface all over using an orthonormal basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But what if we focus our attention only on a part of the sphere? What if instead of measuring a basketball, we want to measure the whole Earth? The Earth is a sphere, and therefore its surface is curved and can't be measured all over with Cartesian coordinates. But if we look only at a small section of the surface — a square mile on a side, for instance — then we can project a set of Cartesian coordinates that work just fine. If we choose our region of interest to be sufficiently small, then Cartesian coordinates will fit on the surface to within the limits of our ability to measure the difference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The surface of a sphere, then, is ''globally curved,'' but ''locally flat.'' In physicist jargon, the surface of a sphere can be ''flattened'' over a sufficiently small region. Not the whole sphere all at once, nor half of it, nor a quarter of it. But a sufficiently small region can be dealt with as if it were a Euclidean plane.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But this brings up an important point. The ''entire'' surface of the sphere is curved, and thus can't be approximated with Cartesian coordinates. But a sufficiently ''small'' patch of the surface can be approximated with Cartesian coordinates. This implies, then, that &amp;quot;curvedness&amp;quot; isn't an either-or property. Somewhere between the locally flat region of the surface and the entire surface, the ''amount'' of curvature goes from none to some value. Curvature, then, must be something we can measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The metric tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is a fundamental property of the Euclidean plane that, when Cartesian coordinates are used, the distance &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;s&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; between any two points &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;A&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;B&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is given by the following equation:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
s^2 = \Delta x^2 + \Delta y^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\Delta x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\Delta y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are the distance between &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;A&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;B&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; directions, respectively. This is essentially a restatement of the universally known [[Pythagorean theorem]], and in the context of general relativity, it is called the ''metric equation.'' Metric, of course, comes from the same linguistic root as the word ''measure,'' and since this is the equation we use to ''measure'' distances, it makes sense to call it the ''metric'' equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But this ''particular'' metric equation ''only'' works on the Euclidean plane with Cartesian coordinates. If we use polar coordinates, this equation won't work.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;This is trivial to demonstrate. If &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;r&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is zero and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\theta&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is non-zero, then &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;r^2 + \theta^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; will be non-zero for a vector that obviously has no length.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; If we're on a curved surface instead of a plane, this equation won't work. This metric equation is ''only'' valid on a ''flat'' surface with ''Cartesian'' coordinates.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which makes it pretty useless, since so much of physics revolves around curved spacetime and spherical coordinates.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What we need is a ''generalized'' metric equation, some way of measuring the interval of any two points regardless of what coordinate system we're using or whether our local geometry is flat or curved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''metric tensor equation'' provides this generalization.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is any vector having components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the length of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is given by the following equation:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
s^2 = g_{\mu\nu} v^{\mu} v^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;g_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''metric tensor,'' and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range over the number of dimensions. Recall that Einstein summation notation means that this is actually a sum over indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we assume that we're in the two-dimensional Euclidean plane, the metric tensor equation expands to:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
s^2 = g_{11} v^{1} v^{1} + g_{12} v^{1} v^{2} + g_{21} v^{2} v^{1} + g_{22} v^{2} v^{2}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The terms of the metric tensor, then, must be numerical coefficients in the metric equation. We already know what these equations need to be to make the metric equation work in the Euclidean plane with Cartesian coordinates:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
s^2 = (1) v^{1} v^{1} + (0) v^{1} v^{2} + (0) v^{2} v^{1} + (1) v^{2} v^{2}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now we can write the metric tensor for the Euclidean plane in Cartesian coordinates in the form of a 2 × 2 matrix:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
g_{\mu\nu} = \begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
  1 &amp;amp; 0 \\&lt;br /&gt;
  0 &amp;amp; 1 &lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So in the case of the Euclidean plane with Cartesian coordinates, the metric tensor is the [[Kronecker delta]]:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\delta^i_j = \begin{cases} &lt;br /&gt;
  1, &amp;amp; \mbox{if }i = j \\&lt;br /&gt;
  0, &amp;amp; \mbox{if }i \ne j&lt;br /&gt;
\end{cases}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, the same concepts apply if we expand our interest from the plane to three-dimensional Euclidean ''space'' with Cartesian coordinates. We just have to let the indices of the Kronecker delta run from 1 to 3.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
g_{\mu\nu} = \begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
  1 &amp;amp; 0 &amp;amp; 0\\&lt;br /&gt;
  0 &amp;amp; 1 &amp;amp; 0\\&lt;br /&gt;
  0 &amp;amp; 0 &amp;amp; 1&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which gives us the following metric equation for the length of a vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (omitting terms with zero coefficient):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
s^2 = (v^1)^2 + (v^2)^2 + (v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which precisely agrees with the Pythagorean theorem in three dimensions. So given a metric tensor &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;g_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; for any space and coordinate basis, we can calculate the distance between any two points. The ''metric'' tensor, therefore, is what allows us to ''measure'' curved space. In a very real sense, the metric tensor describes the ''shape'' of both the underlying geometry and the chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But relativity is concerned not with geometrically abstract ''space;'' we're interested in very real space''time,'' and that requires a slightly different kind of metric.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The local Minkowski metric====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Geodesics====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Parallel transport and intrinsic curvature====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Riemann and Ricci tensors and the curvature scalar====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Einstein tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The cosmological constant====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720454</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720454"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T17:26:02Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Typo correction, whoops&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that general relativity is to special relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of elativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity, like [[quantum mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, general relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General relativity and quantum mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  Hence this article can't possibly give a comprehensive explation of general relativity at the expert level.  But we will attempt to give a rough outline, for lay people, of the general relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Modern science does not say that Newtonian (classical) gravity is wrong.  It is obviously very very nearly correct.  In the weak field approximation, such as one finds in our solar system, the differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity are miniscule.  It takes very sensitive tests to show the difference.  The history of those tests is a fascinating subject, and will be covered near the end of this article.  But in all tests conducted so far, where there are discrepancies between the predictions of general relativity and Newtonian gravity (or other competing theories for that matter), experimental results have shown general relativity to be a better description.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Outside of the solar system, one can find stronger gravitational fields, and other phenomena, such as quasars and neutron stars, that permit even more definitive tests.  General relativity appears to pass those tests as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not to say, by any means, that general relativity is the ultimate, perfect theory.  It has never been unified with modern formulations of quantum mechanics, and it is therefore known to be incorrect at extremely small scales.  Just as Newtonian gravity is very nearly correct, and completely correct for its time, general relativity is believed to be very nearly correct, but not completely so.  Contemporary speculation on the next step involves extremely esoteric notions such as string theory, gravitons, and &amp;quot;quantum loop gravity&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the [[equivalence principle]] and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates special relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We will recall that the Einstein field equations can be written as a single tensor equation:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The right side of the equation consists of some constants and the ''stress-energy tensor,'' described in significant detail in the [[#The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor|previous section]]. The right side of the equation is the &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; side. All matter and energy in a region of space is described by the right side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation, then, is the &amp;quot;space&amp;quot; side. Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move. So the left side of the Einstein field equation must necessarily describe the curvature of spacetime in the presence of matter and energy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Some assumptions about the universe====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before we proceed into a discussion of what curvature is and how the Einstein equation describes it, we must first pause to state some fundamental assumptions about the universe.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;As we will later see, these assumptions may in fact turn out not to be valid for all of spacetime. It may be more accurate, although significantly less satisfying, to say that we assume these things to be true about spacetime, ''except where they aren't.''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The first assumption we're going to make is that spacetime is ''continuous.'' In essence, this means that for any event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; in spacetime — that is, any point in space and moment in time — there exists some local neighborhood of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where the intrinsic properties of spacetime differ from those at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by only an infinitesimal amount.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second assumption we're going to make is that spacetime is ''differentiable'' everywhere. In other words, the geometry of spacetime doesn't have any sharp creases in it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we hold these two assumptions to be true, then a convenient property of spacetime emerges: Given any event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, there exists a local neighborhood where spacetime can be treated as ''flat,'' that is, having zero curvature. It is not necessarily true that ''all'' of spacetime be flat — in fact, it most definitely is not — but given any event in spacetime, there exists ''some neighborhood'' around it that is flat. This neighborhood may be arbitrarily small in both time and space, but it is guaranteed to exist as long as our two assumptions remain valid.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With these two assumptions and this convenient property in hand, we will now examine what it means to say that spacetime is curved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The metric tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The local Minkowski metric====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Geodesics====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Parallel transport and intrinsic curvature====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Riemann and Ricci tensors and the curvature scalar====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Einstein tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The cosmological constant====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720453</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720453"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T17:24:16Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Let's assume that math works&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that general relativity is to special relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of elativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity, like [[quantum mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, general relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General relativity and quantum mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  Hence this article can't possibly give a comprehensive explation of general relativity at the expert level.  But we will attempt to give a rough outline, for lay people, of the general relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Modern science does not say that Newtonian (classical) gravity is wrong.  It is obviously very very nearly correct.  In the weak field approximation, such as one finds in our solar system, the differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity are miniscule.  It takes very sensitive tests to show the difference.  The history of those tests is a fascinating subject, and will be covered near the end of this article.  But in all tests conducted so far, where there are discrepancies between the predictions of general relativity and Newtonian gravity (or other competing theories for that matter), experimental results have shown general relativity to be a better description.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Outside of the solar system, one can find stronger gravitational fields, and other phenomena, such as quasars and neutron stars, that permit even more definitive tests.  General relativity appears to pass those tests as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not to say, by any means, that general relativity is the ultimate, perfect theory.  It has never been unified with modern formulations of quantum mechanics, and it is therefore known to be incorrect at extremely small scales.  Just as Newtonian gravity is very nearly correct, and completely correct for its time, general relativity is believed to be very nearly correct, but not completely so.  Contemporary speculation on the next step involves extremely esoteric notions such as string theory, gravitons, and &amp;quot;quantum loop gravity&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the [[equivalence principle]] and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates special relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We will recall that the Einstein field equations can be written as a single tensor equation:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The right side of the equation consists of some constants and the ''stress-energy tensor,'' described in significant detail in the [[#The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor|previous section]]. The right side of the equation is the &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; side. All matter and energy in a region of space is described by the right side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation, then, is the &amp;quot;space&amp;quot; side. Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move. So the left side of the Einstein field equation must necessarily describe the curvature of spacetime in the presence of matter and energy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Some assumptions about the universe====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before we proceed into a discussion of what curvature is and how the Einstein equation describes it, we must first pause to state some fundamental assumptions about the universe.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;As we will later see, these assumptions may in fact turn out not to be valid for all of spacetime. It may be more accurate, although significantly less satisfying, to say that we assume these things to be true about spacetime, ''except where they aren't.''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The first assumption we're going to make is that spacetime is ''continuous.'' In essence, this means that for any event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; in spacetime — that is, any point in space and moment in time — there exists some local neighborhood of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where the intrinsic properties of spacetime differ from those at &amp;lt;P&amp;gt; by only an infinitesimal amount.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The second assumption we're going to make is that spacetime is ''differentiable'' everywhere. In other words, the geometry of spacetime doesn't have any sharp creases in it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we hold these two assumptions to be true, then a convenient property of spacetime emerges: Given any event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, there exists a local neighborhood where spacetime can be treated as ''flat,'' that is, having zero curvature. It is not necessarily true that ''all'' of spacetime be flat — in fact, it most definitely is not — but given any event in spacetime, there exists ''some neighborhood'' around it that is flat. This neighborhood may be arbitrarily small in both time and space, but it is guaranteed to exist as long as our two assumptions remain valid.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
With these two assumptions and this convenient property in hand, we will now examine what it means to say that spacetime is curved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The metric tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The local Minkowski metric====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Geodesics====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Parallel transport and intrinsic curvature====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Riemann and Ricci tensors and the curvature scalar====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Einstein tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The cosmological constant====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720452</id>
		<title>Talk:Theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720452"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T17:20:21Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Comments on Newtonian Mechanics */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Mass section revision ==&lt;br /&gt;
Regarding my earlier revision of the &amp;quot;mass increase&amp;quot; section: I was careful not to change anything in that section without first asking permission. I explained on the talk page the reason for wanting to make the change, and more or less what I thought should be said. A user named &amp;quot;RSchafly&amp;quot; gave me the go-ahead to make the change, which I did. And I didn't do it in secret. I announced the change as soon as I made it, over a month ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now you've decided you don't like it, and instead of asking me to fix it, or even saying simply &amp;quot;thanks, but no thanks&amp;quot;, you dismiss the whole thing as &amp;quot;claptrap&amp;quot;. Excuse me, but that is incredibly rude.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 21:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You're right.  I was rude, and I apologize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That said, you deleted my clearer explanation and obscured the fact that the nonsensical &amp;quot;relativistic mass&amp;quot; was taught and believed by physicists for more than a generation.  E=mc&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;, which is still repeated and taught in Pavlovian manner by relativists, is simply false as a general equality.  You also inserted non-scientific justification like &amp;quot;language&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;natural&amp;quot; that have no place in a matter of physical observation.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:43, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Beautiful, but not robust&amp;quot; Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The beginning of this article provides a quote from Steven Weinberg on quantum field theory saying that QFT is &amp;quot;beautiful, but not robust.&amp;quot; The way the quote is given here makes it sound like this comment was intended as a criticism of QFT. I looked up the source of the quote, and it appears (to me at least) that the quote was not meant as a criticism at all. I think what Weinberg was saying is that QFT has to satisfy a lot of strong properties, such as gauge invariance and renormalizeablility. It is in that sense that QFT is not robust. But the point I think Weinberg is making is that this gives us hope for finding a grand unified theory, since we don't have much wiggle room in the kinds of theories we can propose.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Given that, I propose the quote be removed, since its likely meaning is out of context with the way the quote is being used. --[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 12:00, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The quote speaks for itself, and your comment is unfortunately incoherent.  A lack of robustness in a theory is obviously a weakness in the theory, not in the requirements for the theory.  No, we're not going to censor the quote.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, clearly the quote does not speak for itself, since it comes at the end of a long lecture praising the progress that has been made in QFT. As far as lack of robustness being a weakness--it seems like this is the exact opposite point Weinberg is trying to make. He discusses, for example, how pleased he was when people discovered the need for theories to be renormalizeable. His point was that this was a hard condition for a theory to satisfy, and therefore imposing that condition greatly narrowed the search for the correct theory. I hope that clarifies the point I was trying to make. --[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 21:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Lemonpeel&amp;quot;, your statement is again incoherent.  You state, &amp;quot;clearly the quote does not speak for itself, '''since it comes at the end of a long lecture praising the progress that has been made in QFT'''.&amp;quot;  The same could be said about some of our close-minded liberal editors.  When one starts from zero, one can make infinite &amp;quot;progress&amp;quot; and still be virtually at zero.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:27, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can't argue with that logic.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 21:54, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Mass Increase Section ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the subsection on mass increase, it is claimed that the abandonment of the relativistic mass point of view &amp;quot;undermines&amp;quot; the famous equation &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. I find this statement rather odd. After all, the broader principle underlying this equation is that if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the 4-momentum vector of a particle, then the magnitude of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same in all inertial reference frames and equal (in units where c = 1) to the rest mass of the particle. This remains true regardless of whether one uses the language of relativistic mass or not. As currently written, this subsection is liable to confuse anyone who is unfamiliar with the subject.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 20:41, 25 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Go ahead and fix it. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:27, 26 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Done.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 13:37, 26 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Great article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1) Superb avoidance of difficult science in a scientific article. Best not to be confusing.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Nice attention on Eddington rather than the theory itself.&lt;br /&gt;
3) Good mind reading regarding Eddington's dreams. &lt;br /&gt;
4) Nice work ignoring the facts about things that have been inventing using GR such as GPS&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And rather than simply be sarcastic, I will work on a better article over the weekend. One that actually discusses the science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Special and general relativity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This article seems to combine the two. They are different ideas and need to be distinguished. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 19:21, 24 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. Separate articles would make more sense. I don't have time to do the necessary work right now, but if no one else does it I'm sure I'll get  to it eventually. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:11, 25 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:If someone will split the pages, I'll help flesh them out.--[[User:ZLewis|ZLewis]] 10:42, 1 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Moral Relativism line needs to go. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have never heard anyone advocating moral relativism use either of the theories of relativity to do it.  Actually, the only people who I've ever heard that from are relativity deniers like Fred Hutchison.  Not only does that show a grave misunderstanding of the scientific theory, but also a misunderstanding of the phrase &amp;quot;moral relativism&amp;quot;.  In any case, you can't draw moral implications from scientific theories.  When someone says that Einstein's theory of relativity implies some kind of moral relativism, they're really saying &amp;quot;The geometric theory of gravity allows me to internalize my moral decisions&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That line is ridiculous and irrelevant, and needs to disappear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't like it ''at all'' in its present form, but the word &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; is thrown around casually ''quite a lot'' and there might be justification for a section with a title like &amp;quot;what relativity is not.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:E.g. [http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2006/06/relativity.html Scott Adams], author of the Dilbert comic strip, says &amp;quot;Einstein’s great insight was assuming reality was not fixed, and that everything was relative to the observer&amp;quot; and goes on to say &amp;quot;I have extended that thinking to people...&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think using Scott Adams as a reference or a jumping-off point for discussion really constitutes holding one's self to a dismally low standard. He's posted his own theories of physics to his blog a few times, freely admitting that he knows they're wrong and that he just takes pride in the fact that the layman can't successfully challenge them. In all honesty, moral relativism is a perfectly valid subject for an article, but it doesn't have anything to do with physics other than an unfortunate overlap of words and definitions in English. Putting this section in just makes the authors look like they're bristling for a fight. [[User:Willforpresident|Willforpresident]] 21:25, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:What follows is interesting if not very profound, but dragging Einstein into it is not helpful.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It just goes to show the value of jargon. When scientists give something a simple name like &amp;quot;relativity,&amp;quot; people assume they understand it and misapply it. I'm just thankful that people aren't very familiar with mathematics or we'd be hearding about crop circles in Galois fields. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:50, 25 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I like the &amp;quot;what relativity is not&amp;quot; idea. Might be worth pointing out that relativity in physics didn't start with SR; there is such a thing as Galilean relativity, after all. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:57, 25 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This line must go.  It is not relevant to the article.  Have a disambiguation page for relativity.  The citation is completely incorrect.  The website http://www.moralrelativity.com/about1.html says nothing about general relativity influencing moral relativity.  This article says 'Relativity has generated a huge following by advocates of moral relativism,' but the website http://www.moralrelativity.com/about1.html does not make any mention of this statement, therefore it is improperly cited.  Citations are supposed to support claims, and this one does not.  (Read the website for yourself).  Also, just because relativity is a homophone in this case doesn't mean it belongs in an article of the (general) theory of relativity.  ''Please make a disambiguation page'' because this is clearly in the wrong place.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the moral relativity part from this article and placed it in a new article called [[Moral relativity]].  Relativity here is clearly just a homophone, and moral relativity is irrelevant to special or general relativity.  To illustrate my point, see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativity.  Relativity in physics has a special meaning. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 00:38, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Folks, moral relativism is a big reason for the political support of types of relativity.  It's obviously relevant to this article, and the above criticism only reinforces the need to include a reference.  We can debate how to say it, but censorship is not an option here.  Go to Wikipedia for that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:31, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay, then that can go into the [[Moral relativity]] article, which now exists.  There is no support for your claim.  Neither is there a need for political support for a scientific theory.  The way you describe it, moral relativity references this theory of relativity, not the other way around.  The theory of relativity neither relies on moral relativity in any explanation of it or needs it to be mentioned for a complete treatment of the theory, and therefore it is inappropriate to add it here.  I direct you again to the dictionary http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativity in order to clarify that relativity in this sense has specific meaning in the domain of physics, and arbritrary theories that share the word are not in this domain nor are related in any concrete way, simply being homophones. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 18:40, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Someone added more about the moral relativity bit, so I put it in the right place: in the article on [[Moral relativity]].  The section says, &amp;quot;Advocates of moral relativity seized on the theory of relativity to legitimize their views,&amp;quot; which is about moral relavitity and how they use the theory of relativity, not how the the theory of relativity involves moral relativity.  I challenge the writer again to find a work on the physics theory that metions moral relativity at all.  Just because a page mentions the theory of relativity does not make it a legitimate part of the theory itself, and as such, does not belong in this article.  If anything, the [[Moral relativity]] article should make a link to this article, not the other way around.  I am not sure the agenda here, but it seems that someone would like to promote moral relativity by attaching it to unrelated articles.  Please add your information to the correct article in the correct place.  Again, here is the link: [[Moral relativity]].  Go crazy.  [[User:Teji|Teji]] 14:42, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
ASchlafly, you added the line &amp;quot;Advocates of moral relativity seized on the theory of relativity to legitimize their views&amp;quot; and gave a citation afterwards. If you read the page that you cite, you will see that the author merely uses Special Relativity to demonstrate how moral relativism works. He does not &amp;quot;seize&amp;quot; on the theory and does not use it to &amp;quot;legitimize&amp;quot; his view. Can you find a better source please? (or remove the sentence)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I can't tell who or when this comment was made, because it lacks the signature (use the signature button above).  But I will look for more sites about to support my statement, which should be easy to find.  Frankly, I've never heard anyone doubt the statement.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:07, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps you've been listening the wrong people. No reputable explanations of relativity mention moral relativity. Find a reputable one. Don't look for moral relativity explanations that include physics relativity, because that information belongs in [[Moral relativity]], not here. You are researching the wrong topic. Repeat: look for information about the physical theory of relativity and see if you can find one that mentions moral relativity (not pages that talk about moral relativity and mention physical relativity). Furthermore, anyone can set up a web page and say whatever they want, so web pages are generally not a very good resource (unless it's the physics department website at MIT, for instance, because it has credibility in this field). You should find reputable scientific texts. And, please, stick the topic at hand: physical science topics needs physical science resources. There is ample room in the [[Moral relativity]] article to discuss. In fact, I'm surprised you aren't contributing more to that article (especially compared to how much you try add to in this article), since you seem to be very interested in the topic and are more knowledgable about it than physical relativity. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:08, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I've received no response.  Can I remove the paragraph now? [[User:Teji|Teji]] 16:59, 11 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::By the way, I checked the history, and MatteeNeutra made the uncited statement above about needing a better source or removing the sentence. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 17:02, 11 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;e=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; not &amp;quot;attributed&amp;quot; to Einstein. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;e=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; isn't just &amp;quot;attributed&amp;quot; to Einstein.  When someone says &amp;quot;attributed&amp;quot;, they typically mean that someone is given credit for an idea somewhat apocryphally.  Einstein obtained the relation in his &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Körper&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt;, in which, from the Lorentz transformations, he obtained the relations:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = \sqrt{c^4m^2+p^2c^2}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
and then, as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p\to0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And these bizarre polemics are undermining what little credibility this encyclopedia has.  Sneering at Einstein and glorifying the contributions of Ponicare makes all of the sense of arguing over whether Leibniz or Newton invented calculus, particularly since there are very palpable differences between Einstein and Ponicare's treatments of the subjects.  And, I see someone has removed the &amp;quot;there is no evidence for the general theory&amp;quot;, but I'm sure it will be back by this afternoon.  That's ever weirder -- how on earth can someone say that &amp;quot;there is no evidence&amp;quot; and then, in the same article, link to black holes?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not going to go back to that article on [[Dirac Notation]] to fill up all of those links with articles until I'm sure one of the administrators isn't going to replace them with accusations of quantum mechanics being tantamount to the Kabbalah, or something equally stupid. (unsigned)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It is a fact that Poincare published E=mc2 and most of the rest of special relativity before Einstein. Maybe you think that this is sneering or glorifying, but it is a fact, and there is no serious dispute about it. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 20:17, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: This is true, but what Poincare described was a specific case of E=mc2.  An experimental result showed that there was momentum when a body ejected EM radiation, but the mass was unaccounted for.  Poincare described the mass of the EM as m=E/c2.  Einstein derived this formula from more fundamental assumptions, the speed of light is absolute, etc.  This is why his work is so famous.  In fact, in all of science, nothing belongs to any one person, even though they may get credit, but are supposedly discovered.  Also do not forget that Einstein also published General Relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
::Furthermore, while Poincare regarded it as superfluous, scientists of the day were still trying to work with the luminescent ether.  Einstein's work proved this unnecessary.&lt;br /&gt;
::Again this is a lesson in science.  We are always trying to compress and refine our science.  Einstein, while he of course drew on other's work and surely knew of Poincare's m=E/c2 paper, his work was more refined and simpler, deriving many principles, Poincare's and new ones, from a few fundamental principles.  Poincare published a paper about a month before Einstein with similar work, but in science, no one person makes a discover.  Don't forget, Newton has his Hooke.  But like Newton, it was Einstein's derivation and formalizations that worked better. (unsigned)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Yes, Poincare described was a specific case of E=mc2, but so did Einstein. Einstein did not foresee particle annihilation or nuclear energy. Poincare's description of the ether as superfluous is nearly identical to Einstein's.&lt;br /&gt;
::: How was Einstein's work on special relativity any more refined, simpler, or better working? I deny this. Poincare showed a better understanding of the theory than Einstein. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:16, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Don't ask me, ask Lorentz. http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: OK, I looked at your link.  The first thing I saw was a claim that the 1919 eclipse proved the General Relativity.  We now know that eclipse proved no such thing.  So much for the credibility of that link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The link does show that Lorentz and Einstein were patting each other on the back.  That's fine, but it suggests a lack of objectivity towards the odd man out, Poincare.  This dispute cannot be resolved by self-interested party, obviously.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:29, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Can't get much more credible than a publication by Lorentz on Gutenberg, bud.  It may be dated, but it is closer to the date of Einstein's work.  As far as I see you, you have the burden to prove your claim as much as everyone else has to support the opposite claim.  Where is your evidence of credible sources? [[User:Teji|Teji]] 18:45, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Old version ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was just looking at [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_Relativity&amp;amp;oldid=15341 an old version of this page], and the absurdity of the &amp;quot;scientific&amp;quot; claims made, combined with the low quality of the writing and blatant inaccuracies, make the article, quite frankly, almost intellectually offensive. I realize that this has since been rectified, but if this is the quality that is to be expected of Conservapedia articles, then I do not blame those who dismiss it as a failed attempt. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:12, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: be specific in your statements if you expect a response.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I find the content reverted to in the above edit to be quite disturbing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The General Theory of Relativity does ''not'' reject Isaac Newton's &amp;quot;God-given&amp;quot; theory of gravitation, it simply provides an explanation for ''why'' it functions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: that was obviously vandalism.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* It is most certainly ''not'' a problem that the General Theory of Relativity is based upon mathematics as opposed to empirical evidence, as seems to be insinuated by this version.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: mathematics is mathematics, and unless there is empirical evidence it is not science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Mathematics describes physics. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:33, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Albert Einstein's work ''did'' contribute to the development of the nuclear bomb. ''E=mc&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;'' describes the duality between matter and energy, the principle upon which the nuclear bomb, and all other nuclear devices, functions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: nope.  ''E=mc&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;'' is a statement of relativistic effect, not atomic power.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yes, but the mass lost in the nuclear reaction is converted to energy, which is the fundamental power of the weapon. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:33, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Nothing useful has even been built based on the theory of relativity.&amp;quot; Sure, sure… nuclear power plants aren't useful at ''all'', are they? GPSs aren't useful ''at all'', are they?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GPSs are useful, but they weren't built using General Relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Without realativity describing gravitation redshift, the timing for the GPS satelite would be off by about 45 microseconds/day.  Further reading on the matter at http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:08, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I think Lorenzian relativity accounts for the GPS time dilation more precisely.  But that isn't really my point.  The GPS clocks are updated based on communications between the satellites and ground stations, not based on any theory.  If you claim that GPS is built based on relativity, then you should be able to prove your case with an historical reference.  No such proof exists.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:39, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That observation does not support the false claim that GPS is based on General Relativity.  Other theories predict a dilation of time, and satellites are obviously synchronized based on communication, not theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:11, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::No, they have GR corrections built in. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 19:15, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Can you please cite an alternate theory that accounts for the time dilation experiecned by the GPS satelites along with the math that matches that of relativity? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:17, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Most conservatives are skeptical since science is supposed to be about finding proof before a theory becomes a fact, not after.&amp;quot; And ''where'' are the statistics that show this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Don't know who wrote that statement, but it's a correct statement of what science means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I was refering to the claim that &amp;quot;''most'' conservatives are skeptical since science…&amp;quot; (emphasis added) [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:33, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Gravitons are not predicted by general relativity; much to the contrary, the two have not been reconciled.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* It is currently believed that space does indeed have curvature, what is described as &amp;quot;negative&amp;quot; curvature, giving it a saddle-like shape overall, but curvature nonetheless.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The denial of demonstrated principles because they do not coincide with your worldview is not scientific, it's purely reactionary nonsense. I'm not impressed by Examples of Bias in Wikipedia citing Wikipedians taking issue with this as a &amp;quot;bias&amp;quot;. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:11, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: OK, fine, no one is trying to impress you.  The Wikipedia entry was biased and demonstrably false, as explained in [[Bias in Wikipedia]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Oh, and I mean no offense to Aschlafly. Although I do not necessarily agree with all his views, I do not wish to disparage him, and I recognize his value as a contributor. I've reconciled with him on this issue, and want to make clear that I do not mean this comment as an attack. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:44, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I just realized that I had somehow managed to fail to see that Aschlafly's edit was a simple revert to a previous version. I don't necessarily agree with the decision, and I don't retract the points with which I take issue, but Aschlafly is not responsible for the content, and I'm sorry for insinuating that he was. I've changed some of my comment to reflect the fact that the edit was simply a revert. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 23:29, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Merge with draft==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a draft for this article [[Theory of relativity/draft | here]]. Surely it's about time these two were merged together or at the very least decide which one is to be continued. I will continue to work on Theory of Relativity/draft as I feel it is a much clearer article. What does everyone else think? [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 07:33, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your draft article has some great stuff in it.  Would you like to merge it into the main article now?  However, please do not delete anything from the main article as part of the merge.  Thanks and a good Easter to you.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: By the way, it appears that relativity is taught in college without using the concept of relativistic mass.  But let's go with your relativistic mass as you wrote it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:06, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yeah, I'll take a shot at a merge now. Relativistic mass is quite important to the theory, as from it we can determine that matter cannot travel faster than the speed of light. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:17, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This isn't Wikipedia ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Teji, don't delete facts here that liberals don't like.  This isn't Wikipedia.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:02, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Please read my explanation above.  I don't think anyone likes unsourced information that is in the wrong topic.  Please contribute to [[Moral relativity]].  I had to create that page while someone was adding information about it to the this topic.  [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:10, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Furthermore, that link is about moral relativity, not special relativity.  It belongs in [[Moral relativity]].  It is shocking that someone so interested in that topic didn't even think to make the article.  In fact, I started that article!  [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:12, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Here is what I said above in case you didn't catch it: ''No reputable explanations of relativity mention moral relativity. Find a reputable one. Don't look for moral relativity explanations that include physics relativity, because that information belongs in Moral relativity, not here. You are researching the wrong topic. Repeat: look for information about the physical theory of relativity and see if you can find one that mentions moral relativity (not pages that talk about moral relativity and mention physical relativity). Furthermore, anyone can set up a web page and say whatever they want, so web pages are generally not a very good resource (unless it's the physics department website at MIT, for instance, because it has credibility in this field). You should find reputable scientific texts. And, please, stick the topic at hand: physical science topics needs physical science resources. There is ample room in the Moral relativity article to discuss. In fact, I'm surprised you aren't contributing more to that article (especially compared to how much you try add to in this article), since you seem to be very interested in the topic and are more knowledgable about it than physical relativity. Teji 13:08, 9 April 2007 (EDT)''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I find it interesting that when you cannot support your information you resort to name-calling and statements about wikipedia.  Does this site want credible and accurate information or information with an agenda?  Because if it is the latter, please make a statement to that effect in your policy pages, or would that make this website too credible and accurate? [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Teji, the statement does not claim that the theory of relativity supports moral relativity, but merely that supporters of moral relativity seized upon the theory of relativity to justify their views.  &amp;quot;Advocates of moral relativity seized on the theory of relativity to legitimize their views.[3] Historians such as Paul Johnson wrote about how the theory of relativity caused a sea change, justified or not, in 20th century thought.&amp;quot; That statement is correct and should not be deleted.  Read it, and reread it, and only comment further here if you can provide something that specifically refutes that statement.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:18, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It is in the wrong place.  The statement is clearly about [[Moral relativity]].  This statement is also correct: ''Jesus is God'', does it belong in this article?  No.  Here is another correct statement: ''morality is &amp;quot;what is the good&amp;quot; and ethics is &amp;quot;how do I practice it&amp;quot;'' from the moral relativity site.  Does it belong in this artcle?  Certainly not. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:21, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Correctness is not enough.  There also must be accuracy.  Information about [[Moral relativity]] belongs in that article. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:22, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe you should change the title to just &amp;quot;Relativity&amp;quot;. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:03, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Okay, how do I do that?  We could also make a disambiguation page, but I don't know how to do that either. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 14:28, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::RSchlafly, you've missed the point. This article is about the Theory of Relativity as a scientific theory. As such, the article should not talk about Moral relativity which, apart from sharing using the same word, is absolutely nothing at all to do with the Theory of Relativity. I also, do not think that the sentence about Moral relativity should be put on this article. At the very most a link at the bottom of this article to Moral relativity, but you may as well link it to a page on forestry for all the relevance it has. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 05:04, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Exactly, if you want to speak about moral relativists using special or general relativity as validation for their philosophy then it should be placed in an articlea bout moral relativism.  It should '''not''' be here. Perhaps - perhaps - it could go in a section on the influence of the theory of relativity on 20th century culture.[[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 05:35, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why was quote about Dicke removed? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added this quote about the Francis Dicke's theory.  Aschalfy, why did you remove it without any comments?  It is from the same time magazine article that is already cited in this article.  It clarifies why Dicke's theory is less professionally accepted!  Please read the article yourself.  It shows that Einstein's theory was closer than Dicke's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''But the J.P.L. experimenters reduced the margin of error to 4% or less by locating the distant spacecraft within 100 ft. of their actual position. Thus, when they calculated that the signal to Mariner was slowed down by 204 millionths of a second on its round trip, '''they dealt the Brans-Dicke theory a sharp if not decisive blow'''. Their measurement was only 4 millionths of a second off the Einsteinian prediction, but 18 millionths of a second off the Brans-Dicke figure.'' http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,943324,00.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is the same article that that is cited for the statement ''Physicist Robert Dicke of Princeton University was a prominent critic[7]''.  The same article that shows why Robert Dicke's theory is not accepted among scientists.  Dicke suffered not just because he criticized Einstein's theory, but also because his theory was not as accurate. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 14:41, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Time magazine is not an authority on whether Dicke's theory is better than Einstein's.  Our [[rules]] are very clear not to cite journalists as authorities beyond their expertise.  A scientific citation that I added shows that Dicke's theory is held in high regard to this day.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:50, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The JPL isn't?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You've got to do better than that if you want a response.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:13, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: And a link from the JPL http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/70s/release_1970_0566.html --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 16:15, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That's an old self-serving press release about only one study.  My footnote about relativity, citing a renaissance in Dicke's theory, is more recent and more comprehensive, and is based on a astrophysics encyclopedia.  So your cite is not appropriate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: And another article http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/9404/dicke.html about Dicke's critique of relativity and  where it failed to produce a better answer. Tests included sodium lines in the sun, distance to the moon, and precession of Mercury. I do not believe that it is fair to say that the ''theory'' is held in high regard today. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 16:28, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'll take a look at this.  I must say, however, that any article that starts out by calling its opponent a &amp;quot;crank&amp;quot; lacks credibility.  But this cite is worth including to reflect the political bias against Dicke, resulting in his being denied the Nobel Prize.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It actually specifically says that Dicke was not a &amp;quot;crank.&amp;quot;  [[User:Murray|Murray]] 17:37, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Ah, yes.  The author charitably concedes that Dicke himself was not a crank, just anyone who supported Dicke's view was.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: This article, which I'm reading now, is incredibly biased and one-sided.  It declares the &amp;quot;General Theory&amp;quot; to be possibly the &amp;quot;greatest single achievement in physics ... of all time.&amp;quot;  And the author states his extremely biased view before telling us about testing results.  Too bad this conflicts with the encyclopedia I cite in the content page.  The value of this article is to show how intolerant supporters of the &amp;quot;General Theory&amp;quot; are of any criticism, including that by Dicke.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:58, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: If Dicke's results were as good or better than General Relativity, then there would be no issue at all.  It also addresses reference #8 about not getting a Nobel Prize - that is because the prize is for discovery, not interpretations.  He wasn't a theoretician and thus didn't have other theories and discoveries.  The individual Dicke is held with high regard in the community - his theory is not (though it is respected in developing the framework for relativistic events). I am curious to see a citation that shows his theory as being respected for the results it gives.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Also the article you misuse by taking the whole renaissance statement out of says this in the same paragraph before your quote!&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::''Initially a popular alternative to General Relativity, the Brans-Dicke theory lost favor as it became clear that omega must be very large-an artificial requirement in some views. Nevertheless, the theory has remained a paradigm for the introduction of scalar fields into gravitational theory, and as such has enjoyed a renaissance in connection with theories of higher dimensional space-time.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: [[User:Teji|Teji]] 16:57, 11 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Muon experiment from another point of view ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From the point of view of the muon in the experiment mentioned, time is not slowed down, but rather distance is compressed.  So instead of dilating time 5x across 10km of travel at relativistic speed, the muon saw that space had compressed from 10km to 2km (also 5x) and it was still traveling that distance.  Thus, the same result - just different perspectives. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 20:50, 27 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ref:  Despite being one of the most accomplished physicists in the 20th century, Dicke was never given a Nobel Prize. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to remove this reference.  Nobel Prizes are given for discoveries and advancements.  Dicke was an experimentalist - not a theorist.  He didn't make discoveries or advancements but rather proved or disproved what the theorists came up with.  As such, the work he did was not something that was noted by those nominating for the Nobel Prize.  Likewise, you won't see a book critic get a Nobel Prize for literature, no matter how good of a critic he or she may be.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 21:02, 27 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Given that there has been no comment on this in opposition, I am removing the reference until someone can dispute the question of if any of Dicke's work was the type for which a Nobel Prize would have been given.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 15:46, 30 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm reverting your change.  Experimentalists win the Nobel Prize all the time.  A prize was given to someone else for work Dicke was doing.  In fact, experimentalists probably win the prize more than theorists.  The deletion of that sentence is for liberal purposes, and we don't allow that here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:50, 30 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Government support of relativity research problems ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The section on government support of relativity research needs a big re-write, but it needs to be clear what is intended first. There are several specific complaints which seem to have been jumbled together:&lt;br /&gt;
#LIGO was a failure, and the money could have been spent elsewhere.&lt;br /&gt;
#Too much money is spent on string theory and similar theories.&lt;br /&gt;
#The government does not support research into (unspecified) alternate theories.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
#This is just liberal crybabying. Not all experiments work, and you can't know ahead of time which ones will. Most such complaints about too much money being spent on some experimental program are based on the idea of government as sugar-daddy, and whining when sugar-daddy likes someone else best. &lt;br /&gt;
#This complaint is more legitimate, as there are serious claims that string theory is not a scientific theory. However, this complaint doesn't belong in this article, because string theory is not relativity; it's an attempt to reconcile general relativity with quantum mechanics. String theory would replace general relativity, if a coherent theory were formulated, and then tested.&lt;br /&gt;
#This complaint seems ridiculous, as the government has funded plenty of tests to verify general relativity; any experimenter who wants to test an alternate theory can devise a test which would produce one result if GR is correct, and another if the alternate theory is true, and ask for funding for a test to verify GR.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On the other hand, perhaps the section could be deleted altogether. [[User:Ultramontanist|Ultramontanist]] 02:02, 23 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Relativistic mass ==&lt;br /&gt;
This paragraph is nonsense:&lt;br /&gt;
: There is a logical difficulty, however, to an increase in relativistic mass. Such increase would only exist in the direction of motion, and the rest mass would remain intact with respect to a force applied in a direction orthogonal to velocity. But mass is not a vector, and the notion of the mass of an object having different values depending on the direction of an applied force is unacceptable.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relativistic mass applies no matter what the direction of the force is. Some don't like the term &amp;quot;relatvistic mass&amp;quot;, but for other reasons.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is also nonsense:&lt;br /&gt;
:In layman's terms, these two assumptions can be restated as:&lt;br /&gt;
::1. It is impossible ever to transmit information faster than the speed of light.&lt;br /&gt;
::   2. The laws of physics are identical, without any variation, in every location throughout the universe.&lt;br /&gt;
::   3. The laws of physics are identical, without any variation, no matter how fast something is traveling (in the absence of acceleration). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not a restatement. Relativity says masses cannot for faster than light. Probably not information either, but that is another principle. Parts 2 and 3 are confusing and misleading, at best. Relativity teaches that there are no inertial frames in the universe. The laws of physics apply throughout the universe. They apply whether there is acceleration or not. But special relativity has more to do with inertial frames. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suggest getting rid of these &amp;quot;layman's terms&amp;quot;. They aren't. They don't clarify anything for anybody. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:29, 8 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== GPS edit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bayes, your claim that GPS is based on the Theory of General Relativity is not correct.  GPS synchronization can be done directly, and has never relied on the theory.  Your edits should be reverted.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:37, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My apologies.  I didn't mean to edit recklessly; I thought I was correcting a typo.  In fact, the [http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html source cited by that sentence] ''before'' I made my edit (and many other sources as well) indicate that relativistic corrections are, in fact, taken into account by GPS receivers.  Clocks on the satellites run at different rates than those on the ground due to the fact that they are at a higher altitude, where gravity is weaker; hence the need for a correction for gravitational time dilation, as predicted by general relativity.  Yes, that means that clocks in Denver tick slightly faster than clocks in New York.  I would be happy to look at any sources you can provide that show how GPS keeps accurate time without those corrections.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:30, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Your citation is to a silly, unsupported and off-hand remark by a professor of astronomy.  GPS was built by engineers in the 1970s, who would not have even attempted to calculated the time dilation using relativity.  There would be no reason to rely on relativity, since the clocks can be and were synchronized more directly, more simply and more accurately by communicating with them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:09, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::1. Let me reiterate that the citation was there before I made my edit.  The previous version denied that relativistic corrections are necessary, and then cited a source to the contrary. Your recent edit makes a similar claim, but cites a source that doesn't delve deeply into technical aspects of how GPS actually works, and is therefore irrelevant to the claim.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::2. You can dismiss the citation in question if you like, but it seems that the overwhelming majority of experts disagree; consider [http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm 1] [http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp 2] [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdf 3], which I doubt would be considered &amp;quot;silly, unsupported and off-hand remark[s].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::3. GPS designers in the 1970s certainly knew about relativistic effects.  Here's an exerpt from [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdf 3]:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::[B]efore the first GPS satellite was launched in 1977, although it was recognized that orbiting clocks would require such a relativistic offset, there was uncertainty as to its magnitude, and even its sign. So correcting frequency synthesizers were built into the clocks, spanning a large enough range around the nominal 10.23 MHz clock frequency to encompass all possibilities. After the satellite's cesium atomic clock was turned on, it was operated for three weeks to measure its rate. The frequency shift measured during this initial period was found to be 4.425 parts per ten billion, agreeing with the relativistic calculation to better than 1%.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::4. Yes, communication with the satellites is possible.  That doesn't change the fact that satellite clocks run at different rates than ground-based clocks, which would result in huge errors if the satellite clock frequencies weren't compensated for time dilation effects.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 15:17, 24 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Criticism of LIGO ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The criticism of LIGO under the heading &amp;quot;Government funding...&amp;quot; should be viewed in context.  The observatories are not yet operating at their maximum level of precision.  The usual procedure when building large projects like this is to make sure they work at more imprecise levels, and then &amp;quot;tune&amp;quot; them closer and closer to their limits.  It isn't surprising that LIGO has not yet detected gravitational waves, and the consensus is that such waves will be detected in the future.  The [http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/sept/gravitywaves/index.html cource cited] for that criticism even mentions that physicists are &amp;quot;confident&amp;quot; that LIGO will be successful.  After all, the NSF doesn't shell out hundreds of millions of dollars in grant money on a coin flip; they were/are convinced that getting results is a slam dunk.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:48, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Hope springs eternal.  I'm afraid you sound like an oil-well driller (wildcatter) who, after encountering one dry well after another in a region, says &amp;quot;just spend a little more money and drill again!&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: LIGO has been a disappointment so far, and there is no sign of success right around the corner.  At some point accountability is in order, even if more money is to be spent searching gravity waves.  Realize that this search has been ongoing for 100 years, without any detection.  How many more years are necessary?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:12, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::While I fully agree that accountability for all major budget items is in order at some point, I don't think the oil-driller analogy is valid in this context.  LIGO is still far from its designed sensitivity, as mentioned [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;amp;_udi=B6TJM-4B5R97X-F&amp;amp;_user=1010281&amp;amp;_handle=V-WA-A-W-VB-MsSAYVA-UUW-U-AAVUWVWVAB-AABDYWBWAB-CEYDYDUEB-VB-U&amp;amp;_fmt=summary&amp;amp;_coverDate=01%2F21%2F2004&amp;amp;_rdoc=15&amp;amp;_orig=browse&amp;amp;_srch=%23toc%235314%232004%23994829998%23476198%21&amp;amp;_cdi=5314&amp;amp;view=c&amp;amp;_acct=C000050264&amp;amp;_version=1&amp;amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;amp;_userid=1010281&amp;amp;md5=6a930932559a96137a8b6aafdb2d9372 here].  Plans are already underway to do go beyond merely detecting gravitational waves to doing astrophysics with them.  Furthermore, detection of gravitational waves requires extreme sensitivity that can only be achieved with modern technology.  Serious efforts to detect them didn't begin until the 1960s, when Joseph Weber built his bar detectors, and even then the scientific consensus was that his detectors weren't sensitive enough.  Some scientific advances just have to wait for technology to allow their discovery.  Tell you what, if LIGO is considered a failure in 10 years, I owe you a Coke.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 15:40, 24 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It's been nearly 2 years since your message above, and LIGO has been operational for nearly 7 years.  Do you really insist on waiting a full 10 years (after spending a billion dollars) before allowing some accountability?  LIGO soaked up a ton of research money that could have been spent on promising technology and potential cures.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:54, 23 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Other issues ==&lt;br /&gt;
There are some other aspects of this article that I would like to consider adding to or changing.&lt;br /&gt;
*A fair amount of text is dedicated to Eddington's findings and not many other astronomical observations.  Eddington published his results in 1919; obviously, since then, there have been many others who have improved on his observations.  &lt;br /&gt;
*The &amp;quot;Ostensible Paradoxes&amp;quot; section should be heavily altered or removed; there aren't any paradoxes listed there.  First, the SR postulates don't offer any opinion on whether physical constants have had the same value throughout the history of the universe; they state that all inertial observers get the same answer when they measure the speed of light.   Second, there are several ways to measure wave velocity; some of the most common are [[group velocity]] and [[phase velocity]].  Both types of velocities can exceed the speed of light (''c'') without violating special relativity.  However, the energy velocity and information velocity do not exceed ''c'', also in accordance with SR.  There is nothing mysterious or sinister going on here; these concepts are addressed or at least mentioned in many undergraduate courses.  Third, the universal constant ''c'' is the speed of light ''in vacuum''; the speed of light ''in materials'' is less than than ''c'' since the electric permittivity and magnetic permeability of materials are different than those of vacuum.  That means that matter can travel faster than light ''in a material'' without violating SR; try Googling [[Cerenkov radiation]].--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 18:28, 24 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm concerned about the use of some citations, which seem to be misrepresented in order to discredit relativity. For instance:&lt;br /&gt;
:*The Economist article cited does not attack relativity; it's a discussion of how GR is being tested to its limits, like any other theory.  If any improved theory of gravity is found, GR is likely to be a useful subset of it, in the same way that Newtonian gravity is a useful subset of GR.  And anyway, I thought non-scientific sources [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=prev&amp;amp;oldid=95688 weren't supposed to used] in these situations.&lt;br /&gt;
:*The new cite for the statement ''There is a correlation between enthusiasm for the theory of relativity and political views'' is an opinion piece about how moral relativists hijacked scientific relativity for their own purposes.  The cite doesn't make that claim, and it doesn't show any data to support it.  Frankly, I'd be very surprised if any such correlation existed. Even IF that kind of correlation existed, it doesn't belong in a scientific article.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The overall tone of the article seems to try to convince the reader to be skeptical of relativity.  It appears to me that such skepticism is ideologically motivated, e.g., ''Although the liberally biased Wikipedia contains lengthy criticisms of the subjects of many entries...'', ''The Democratic Congress insisted on the $250 million LIGO project...'', ''There is a correlation between enthusiasm for the theory of relativity and political views''.  I don't fully understand the motivation, but it bears repeating that good science (of which relativity is a part) is independent of ideology.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 17:54, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: You're not the first to deny a [[liberal bias]] in science.  But surely you would agree that the following areas of science, and perhaps nearly of all science, are susceptible to political bias:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
**[[global warming]]&lt;br /&gt;
**nuclear energy&lt;br /&gt;
**the [[Strategic Defense Initiative]]&lt;br /&gt;
**claims of extraterritorial life&lt;br /&gt;
**demands for government funding of science&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:11, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I absolutely agree that deciding what science to fund, implementation of policies pertaining to scientific findings, or practical use of scientific results (like nuclear weapons), and perhaps some other issues not mentioned are or can be politicized.  But I stand by my basic point: if you get a liberal to measure acceleration due to gravity on Earth's surface, and then get a conservative to do the same thing, they'll both get 9.8 m/s^2.  Similarly, relativity has been around long enough, has useful applications, and is so successful in predicting experimental outcomes that it should not be subject to the same treatment as the more controversial topics you mention.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 18:24, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: You apparently don't concede the liberal bias in the majority of my examples above, such as global warming and SDI.  When I worked as engineer at a research facility in the 1980s, we had an IBM scientist with impeccable credentials give a presentation claim that SDI was impossible, dangerous, and bad politics.  It's silly to pretend that his claim of impossibility of SDI was unrelated to politics.  Likewise, it's silly to pretend there is no political bias in global warming theories.  But if we can't agree on that, then there is little point in discussing this further.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:33, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Did you read the first sentence of my post above?  Global warming is an example of tough policy decisions that could be implemented based on scientific findings.  Surely both conservatives and liberals agree with the basic finding that the earth is warming.  Similarly, the political debate over SDI was about the USE of science and technology, not the FINDINGS of science and technology.  Sure, scientists can have opinions about what to do with their findings, but presumably the experimental results are valid across political lines.  In any case, this is an aside; my specific concerns with the article, as addressed on this page, still stand.  I assume by your willingness to exit the conversation that you don't have any problems with me addressing them?--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 18:48, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Your first sentence omitted any reference to global warming.  Global warming is a liberal scientific theory about if and why the earth is warming.  Yes, there are political biases in many scientific theories.  If you can't accept that, then I urge you to become more open-minded first before trying to pretend that something is immune from politics.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no objections to factual edits of this article that add information.  I do object to pushing a liberal point of view by deleting factual information.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:02, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Sounds good.  However, the fact that GPS satellite clocks have built-in corrections for relativistic effects is something I inserted previously, and it was reverted.  I hope you understand that I brought up these issues in an effort to accurately represent the science, and not because of some agenda.  As I've said, I don't think special and general relativity are associated with political controversy.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 19:12, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Bayes, you continue to insist on a falsehood, and I attribute that to [[liberal]] distortions in what you've read elsewhere.  Please recognize that politics does distort science.  '''GPS satellite clocks were not built based on predictions made by the theory of relativity.'''--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: See my post above, where I have cited several sources that assert the contrary.  On the other hand, you have yet to provide any evidence of how GPS can work without taking such corrections into account.  Your source for that claim does not address timing issues with regard to GPS.  I have to say that I'm increasingly baffled by your continued denial of this verifiable fact.  How would a vast liberal conspiracy gain from hiding how clocks work?--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:00, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Bayes, you're talking to a former engineer.  GPS was built by engineers, not by theoretical physicists.  GPS never used the theory of relativity.  If you continue to dispute that (likely due to [[liberal]] bias), then give me your very best cite for your claim that GPS used the theory of relativity and I'll look at it.  Otherwise, drop it and move on to a different issue.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:41, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
GPS and relativity links:&lt;br /&gt;
* http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html&lt;br /&gt;
* http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp&lt;br /&gt;
* http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm (actual equations)&lt;br /&gt;
* http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/&lt;br /&gt;
* http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~kpgokeef/pubs/ENGO625relativity.pdf (slides from an engineering lecture - see pages 23-30 for listing of relativistic effects GPS accounts for - note conclusions on page 31.)&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 21:53, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: No, you're not listening.  Give me your best cite for the claim that GPS *uses* the theory of relativity.  Pick out your best, that's all I'm going to waste time on, since the answer is obvious to any engineer: GPS never used the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:58, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: In that case, I should probably reference http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf &amp;quot;GPS And Relativity: An Engineering Overview&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The first page introduction finishes with &amp;quot;In this paper, we compare the predictions of relativity to those of intuitive, classical, Newtonian physics; we show how large or small the differences are, and how and what applications those difference are large enough to make it necessary to correct the formulas of classical physics.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:: Lorentz Contraction is covered on page 2, Gravitational redshift on page 3, and the acceleration of the satellite on page 4.&lt;br /&gt;
::: &amp;quot;Since GPS receivers work in the time and not in the frequency domain, they handle the velocity, gravity, and acceleration shifts differently than described above.  First, each GPS space vehicle (SV) clock is offset from its nominal rate by about -4.45x10&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;-10&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; (= -38 microseconds per day) to allow for the relativistic offsets between the differences between the SV and the ground.  Of this, -38 microseconds per day, about -45 are due to the gravitational potential difference between the SV at its mean distance and the earth's surface, and +7 to the mean SV speed, which is about 3.87 km/sec.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:: Does that help answer the question? --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 22:22, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The very first sentences of this paper prove my point (emphasis added):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does '''not''' include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein's general theory of relativity would seem to require - transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter - less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The remainder of the paper is theoretical speculation about how a future GPS system might use relativity.  There is disagreement about how relativity might be used, as reflected by comments in the paper.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:05, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The remainder of the paper is about improvements to the GPS system.  The paper was published in '97.  In 2001, the system was updated.  With Block II GPS satelites, OCS was rewritten so that it doesn't require constant updates from ground stations to reset the clocks http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/mail/igsreport/1994/msg00146.html (example of clock reset for relativity prior to 2001).  Instead, now, accounting for relativity constantly the GPS satellites  are able to offer much more accurate positioning (this was required, as mentioned by the paper I previously linked, the 6 meter accuracy - it is now required by the 2001 performance standard http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/2001SPSPerformanceStandardFINAL.pdf (page 20 of the document, section 3.4) .  If you are willing to reset the clock periodically and accept errors between clock resets - then you can discount relativity.  If you want high accuracy all the time, you must take relativity into account between synchronizations. --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The remainder of the paper is about '''proposed''' improvements to the GPS system.  There is nothing indicating that those proposals were ever implemented.  So that paper strikes out as support for the claim that GPS relies on relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Now you're pointing me to a new paper.  I'll look at it in the morning but, as I said, pick your best one.  If this paper strikes out also then I'm unlikely to keep looking at more and more papers to explain why each one fails to support the claim.  Please provide your very best cite, as I requested before.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:07, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdf this one], written by [http://www.colorado.edu/physics/Web/directory/faculty/ashby_n.html Neil Ashby] for [http://www.physicstoday.org/ Physics Today], a major publication of the AIP.  Again, I quote from a portion, although the entire paper is about the issue in question:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;[B]efore the first GPS satellite was launched in 1977, although it was recognized that orbiting clocks would require such a relativistic offset, there was uncertainty as to its magnitude, and even its sign. So correcting frequency synthesizers were built into the clocks, spanning a large enough range around the nominal 10.23 MHz clock frequency to encompass all possibilities. After the satellite's cesium atomic clock was turned on, it was operated for three weeks to measure its rate. The frequency shift measured during this initial period was found to be 4.425 parts per ten billion, agreeing with the relativistic calculation to better than 1%.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You've now been presented with many sources from Rutm and I supporting GR implementation in GPS, and you have yet to produce one source that says that GPS works on only classical principles.  Furthermore, I question your motivation in demanding one &amp;quot;best&amp;quot; source, since I anticipate that you will attempt to attack the &amp;quot;best source,&amp;quot; perhaps by invoking &amp;quot;liberal bias&amp;quot; (as if it existed in this case--either the clocks run at different frequencies or they don't), ignoring the vast consensus, and proclaim &amp;quot;victory.&amp;quot;--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 10:56, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: OK, I think I now (finally!) understand what's going on.  I think we have a misunderstanding here; we're talking about two different kinds of corrections.  The paper supplied by Rutm (and quoted in the current article) is discussing relativistic corrections to the frequency of signals measured by the receivers.  That paper is from the early 1990s, and at that time no relativistic corrections were performed for those signals (though  corrections might be taken into account now).  Throughout this discussion, I have been referring to the fact that clocks on GPS space vehicles have ALWAYS had built-in frequency offsets to account for the relativistic effects on moving clocks and clocks in gravitational potentials.  It's a question of corrections made to the '''communications''' between GPS components and the '''on-board clocks''' of the satellites; the former are not as important, while the latter are very important.  Any problems with inserting this nuance into the article?--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 19:14, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, that GPS quote is extremely misleading. It implies that the relativistic effects are too small to be significant. But the rest of the paragraph explains that relativistic corrections are necessary to meet the accuracy requirements of most users. The article is incorrect when it states, &amp;quot;Predictions of relativity have not historically been used to make the Global Positioning System (GPS) function properly.&amp;quot; Relativity  has in fact been used, and programmed into satellites and receivers. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That's simply not true.  GPS adjustments have been based on observation, not theoretical prediction.  Effects predicted by relativity are offsetting to each other and the experts could not even agree in which direction the small net effect would be.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is a matter of historical fact and it's astonishing that the demands to rewrite history about this are so persistent.  The quote confirms the obvious:  GPS adjustments are based on observation, not theoretical prediction.&lt;br /&gt;
:For those who claim to have such a thorough understanding of GPS here, how about answering the question below:  does Newtonian mechanics predict any divergence in the clocks from the satellite compared to ground?  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:31, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, the fact is that the GPS satellites have operated both with and without the relativistic corrections. The cited articles confirm that. You are completely wrong to say that relativistic corrections have not been used.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The relativistic corrections partially offset each other, but not entirely, and they are big enough to affect accuracy in a typical consumer GPS unit. It is also false to say that there is disagreement among physicists on the point. &lt;br /&gt;
:: If you were right, then find an article that supports what you say. That paragraph you quote ends with &amp;quot;large enough to make it necessary to correct the formulas of classical physics.&amp;quot; Include that, and give the date on the article. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:09, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The article first states the obvious: GPS is not designed using the theory of relativity.  Then the article discusses an ongoing and unresolved dispute about exactly what the theory of relativity does predict for the numerous factors involved in the GPS system, and makes its own unverified claims.  Relativity predicts time differences going in both directions, and there are issues about what the inertial frame should be.  One article cited earlier, which I will try to find and reinsert, states that Lorentzian (not Special) Relativity generally matches observations best.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:GPS was built by engineers and there is no reason for them to rely on the theory of relativity.  It is far simpler and more reliable simply to observe the time differences.  Engineers don't study the theory of relativity, and if you think a physicist well-versed in the theory of relativity provided essential predictions for the GPS engineers, then who was he?  Give us his name and he we can simply ask him.  Was he nominated for a Nobel prize?  Surely he would have at least published a paper about his work.  Where is it????&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:And where is the answer to the question as to whether Newtonian mechanics predicts time difference in the GPS system also?  After all, if someone is going to claim that GPS confirms the superiority of relativity to Newtonian mechanics, then surely he must first make a statement about whether Newtonian mechanics predicts a time difference.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:56, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: What you say is just not true. GPS was designed with an understanding of the magnitude of the relativistic effects. The effects are well-understood, and no one was nominated for a Nobel prize for predicting the effects. Yes, there were engineers who didn't study relativity and didn't think that relativistic effects would be significant. They have been proven wrong. There are no unresolved disputes. You have been given several references that tell the story. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:41, 29 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: To sum:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*** no physicists have been identified who supposedly incorporated relativity into the GPS design&lt;br /&gt;
*** no papers exist describing how relativity *was* (not &amp;quot;might be&amp;quot;) used in GPS&lt;br /&gt;
*** references that have been provided describe disagreements among physicists about the relativistic predictions for GPS&lt;br /&gt;
*** those claiming that GPS confirms relativity compared to Newtonian mechanics don't know whether Newtonian mechanics also predicts time differences, which renders the comparison pointless.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I realize that historical revisionism is common in many areas, but I would hope that science would adhere to a higher standard.  Sometimes, unfortunately, science seems be even more vulnerable to revisionism.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:04, 29 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I will respond to this post below, under &amp;quot;Question about GPS&amp;quot;--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 13:55, 30 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: As Bayes explains, the papers do say that relativity was used in GPS. Just what is the disagreement among physicists? I didn't see any in your references. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:43, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: No, none of the papers state that a physicist or group of physicists provided the complex relativistic predictions and that those predictions were incorporated into a particular GPS system.  Engineers don't study relativity, and if physicists provided these predictions to a GPS system then there would be (a) names of physicists, (b) dates of incorporation, and (c) adjustments based on results.  None of this happened.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The claim that relativistic predictions were actually used in an actual GPS system wouldn't last 5 minutes on a witness stand at trial.  It's pure fiction.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:20, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Theory of Relativity (moved from [[User talk:Aschlafly]]) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I found it offensive that you labelled my edit a &amp;quot;liberal edit&amp;quot;. I was not aware of the Corpuscular Theory of Light, and therefore I did not know what &amp;quot;Newton's theory&amp;quot; in that sentence was referring to. Since there was no link (as there is now) to a page which shows Einstein's formula being two times more than his previous one, which was stated to be same as Newton's, I changed the sentence to the best of my knowledge - that light was viewed as a wave through ether at Newton's time, and therefore his theory of gravity does not apply.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How my mistake is a &amp;quot;liberal edit&amp;quot; is beyond me.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ATang|ATang]] 09:47, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Please accept my apologies.  By way of explanation, not as justification, liberals love relativism and their spin on the theory of relativity, and exaggerate everything associated with it.  Claiming that relativity predicts the bending of light while Newton did not is one of those exaggerations.  A simple search on the internet before deleting something here is always advisable, and that simple search reveals how Newton's theory predicts the bending of light too (though not by as much).  I think this Newtonian prediction is in high school physics problem books, so it is not obscure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Regardless, thanks for your efforts and I look forward to more additions by you here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:43, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'll search the internet before making changes next time. [[User:ATang|ATang]] 14:04, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ashlafly, I am concerned about the overall tone of the [[relativity]] article.  Some statements suggest the presence of an anti-relativity agenda.  Am I correct in guessing that this stance is due to a perceived link between moral relativism, the Democratic party, and the scientific concept of relativity?  If so, I'd like to point out that while scientific funding by the government is certainly a political issue, actual scientific research is a separate issue and is independent of political leanings.  The outcome of a proper experiment does not depend on whether the scientists conducting it are conservative or liberal. You are indeed justified if you are objecting to overzealous extrapolations based on scientific findings (such as moral relativism being based on scientific relativity), but such extrapolations have absolutely nothing to do with the scientific findings themselves.  IMHO, encyclopedic articles on the scientific concept of relativity should stick to the science and not go into philosophy or politics.  Furthermore, criticism of concepts such as moral relativism should be concerned with the merits (or lack thereof) of the concepts themselves, not on sound science that has nothing to do with it.  Attempts to discredit relativity because of perceived links to philosohical or political positions that one disagrees with are not scientific, and fly in the face of undeniable experimental verification, basic facts (like how GPS satellite clocks function) and essentially universal acceptance of at least the basic principles.  If you would like to incorporate some of the material on the current relativity page into a separate article, such as [[Historical views of relativity]], a personal essay, or something similar, then I would be all for it.  I have not yet edited the relativity article heavily, but please see [[Talk:Theory of relativity]] for some of my specific conerns.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 17:56, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I have already responded to this above.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Question about GPS ==&lt;br /&gt;
Does Newtonian mechanics predict that clocks on GPS satellites will diverge from clocks on earth?  That is not an easy question to answer.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As far as I'm aware, no. It's relativity that predicts that there will be a divergence in time, for reasons already discussed. However, I want to throw in: both of you aruging about whether GPS satellites use relativity are correct in certain ways. Andy, you're correct that there is no actual use of relativity on the circuits on board the satellite. For those arguing that relativity is used, you're correct too; based on predictions from both general and special relativity, the clocks on the satellites are fine tuned with an offset to minimize the nano-second order deviations from clocks on the ground. Then, for practical purposes, newtonian based approximations are acceptable accuracy-wise. [[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 14:08, 30 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Mr. Schlafly, I apologize for not responding more quickly.  Newtonian mechanics cannot account for the observed divergence in clock rates.  Classically, inertial reference frames are related by [[Galilean transformations]]:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: x' = x + vt&lt;br /&gt;
:: t' = t&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: where x and x' are positions in the rest and moving frame, respectively&lt;br /&gt;
:: t and t' are times in the rest and moving frame, respectively&lt;br /&gt;
:: v is the velocity of the moving frame relative to the rest frame.  Note that frame labels like &amp;quot;rest&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;moving&amp;quot; are arbitrary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: According to those transformations, time in all inertial frames is the same (t' = t), and therefore no time dilation is predicted.  However, the Lorentz transformations that relate inertial frames according to special relativity DO predict time dilation.  So that would allow for corrections based on the relative speeds of the satellites.  However, you could reconcile the time difference using classical mechanics IF you assert that the speed of light in the moving frame is different from the speed of light in the rest frame; that would essentially mean that the satellites are measuring a different light speed than the earth is.  Such assertions would conflict with experimental evidence.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Another, more significant time dilation effect is due to gravitational time dilation, predicted by general relativity, which is dependent on the curvature of spacetime.  Newtonian gravity incorporates an &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; principle and does not incorporate spacetime curvature, and therefore predicts no gravitational time dilation.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Also, your statement that no sources have been provided showing that corrections for relativistic effects were historically incorporated is incorrect, as I have twice quoted from a Physics Today article (see above) showing that devices allowing for such corrections to clock frequencies were used when the satellites were first launched.  I'm still convinced we have a misunderstanding; the satellite clock frequencies have used and do need relativistic corrections, but once those corrections are implemented, Newtonian physics works fine for communication and position calculations (although some sources seem to indicate that may not be true for fast-moving objects, like jets and so forth).  However, you have successfully convinced me that there is something of a political element in some areas of science :)--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 14:40, 30 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Bayes, it's wrong to assert that Newtonian mechanics does not predict time differences in GPS clocks.  You can't build a clock that would be uneffected by acceleration under Newtonian mechanics.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Let's be frank for a moment.  It's absurd to insist that an experiment proves theory A is superior to theory B when there is no understanding of what theory B even says about the experiment.  Theory A may indeed be better than theory B, but superiority is not demonstrated by that experiment.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:26, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You got a physics paper saying that relativity explains the GPS clock differences to within 1%. There is no Newtonian explanation for the differences. Just give the fact, and let the reader decide which theory is superior. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:48, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The paper does not demonstrate that relativity predictions were incorporated into GPS.  No paper demonstrates that.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: A few (not many) papers claim that observed GPS clock differences can be explained by relativity.  That is a very different claim, and requires examining carefully the assumptions made in the calculations to justify a claim that the theory matches an observed result.  It also requires comparing the calculations to Newtonian calculations, which the papers utterly fail to do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:35, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Yes, of course those papers compare to Newtonian calculations. That is why they are called &amp;quot;GPS clock differences&amp;quot;. They are the differences between the relativistic and Newtonian calculations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 21:27, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: No they don't.  Those few papers attempting to match relativity theory with GPS clock results all implicitly assume that the effects on the accelerated clocks from Newtonian mechanics are zero.  That is likely wrong.  And that explains why there are so few papers and so few physicists who claim personally to have confirmed GPS results with relativity theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: If GPS results really did confirm relativity theory, then this would be in textbooks and classroom assignments.  It isn't.  Only a few obscure physicists even make the claim asserted here, and because they implicitly make the assumption that Newtonian effects are zero, their claims are not credible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:00, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Yes, of course the Newtonian effect on time are zero. What are you suggesting -- that some unknown Newtonian effect might predict a GPS clock difference that just happens to match the relativistic calculation? The fact remains that the GPS clock differences are predicted by relativity, and not by any other theory. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 00:53, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: There is a Newtonian effect on the clocks.  Yet this was not even addressed by a few obscure physicists who claim to derive, using relativity while disagreeing with other experts, the exact same result as the observed GPS time differences.  This omission hardly inspires confidence in their unverified work.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:58, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: It wasn't addressed because it doesn't exist. Do you have any reliable source that says that a Newtonian effect can explain the observed GPS time differences? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:13, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: And if there is no such paper, then the relativity claim about GPS must be true???  No, the relativity claim about GPS needs to stand on far better logic than that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: In fact, the few papers claiming relatitivy is confirmed by GPS, written by obscure physicists, overlooked the Newtonian effects on the clocks.  If you think you can build a clock immune from Newtonian effects, then patent it immediately.  Can't be done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:49, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;----&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please identify the calculations that predict a difference in time. Bayes has already shown that time in all inertial reference frames is equal and identified how he derived this statement, so there's obviously something we're missing. '''[[User:Stryker|ΨtrykeЯ]]'''&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Stryker| eh?&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:57, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, if there is no paper saying that a Newtonian effect can explain the observed GPS time differences, then it is correct to say that relativity provides the only known explanation for those differences. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:40, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: No, we shouldn't accept the equivalent of &amp;quot;relative proof.&amp;quot;  Just because a flawed proof or claim is better than other flawed proofs or claims does not mean it is acceptable.  Would any mathematician embrace a flawed proof because it is better than other flawed attempts to prove the same theorem?  I don't think so.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:32, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If you don't want to call it a &amp;quot;relative proof&amp;quot;, that's fine with me. I am just correcting errors. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:06, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Here are the facts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*GPS satellite clocks have mechanisms to correct for frequency offsets caused by time dilation.  I don't see how this can be disputed, unless you want to stubbornly deny that such devices exist, in which case you can claim that cars don't have engines.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: It hasn't been proven that the frequency offsets are due to &amp;quot;time dilation.&amp;quot;  Instead, you assume what you claim to prove.  Your logic is circular.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Newtonian mechanics does not predict ANY time dilation because it regards time as absolute, even in accelerating frames. Again, I don't see how this can be reasonably disputed, outside of winning a Nobel Prize.  There are no reputable sources that predict Newtonian time dilation because there is no Newtonian time dilation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: No one said that Newtonian mechanics does predict time dilation.  This is a strawman argument.  What is true is that Newtonian mechanics effects the operation of clocks in accelerating frames.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Relativity does predict time dilation.  All reputable physicists (not just a few obscure ones) can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: OK, this is true, but purely theoretical.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*The predictions of relativity are in good agreement with the frequency offsets on GPS satellite clocks.  Several papers on the topic have been cited on this page.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: A few papers by obscure physicists have made this claim, but these papers raise questions like disagreements among relativists and a failure to address Newtonian effects on the clocks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::If you want to flat-out deny the above, then I guess I shouldn't waste my time trying to improve the article.  I'll also point out that some significant creationist ideas depend on relativity to explain the starlight problem (God creating the Earth inside a massive gravitational field), so it's not an amoral atheist conspiracy.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 14:57, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Relativists love to exaggerate relativity.  Earlier, someone here claimed (based on what he had been taught by relativists) that only relativity predicts the bending of light from gravity.  Wrong again.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;---&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You state, ''&amp;quot;No one said that Newtonian mechanics does predict time dilation...What is true is that Newtonian mechanics effects [sic] the operation of clocks in accelerating frames.&amp;quot;''  Those sentences are contradictory.  Newtonian mechanics does NOT predict any difference in the operation of clocks.  Furthermore, what do the frequency offsets do if they don't compensate for time dilation??  Are they decorative??  Clock frequencies have to be adjusted ''because the clocks run at different rates''. And whatever extrapolations &amp;quot;relativists&amp;quot; come up with have nothing to do with the science.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 15:36, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yes, that's correct. If you wanted to make an anti-relativity statement, I think that here is the most that you could say correctly is this:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* GPS does not prove relativity, in the sense that no experiment ever proves a theory. There is always the possibility that someone will come along later with a better explanation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Being able to calculate the relativistic corrections is not truly essential to making GPS work. Nowadays the satellite clocks are synchronized so frequently that predicting the clock drift is not necessary. If relativity were never discovered, then the satellite corrections could be made without anyone realizing that the system was just adding relativistic corrections. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:02, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::RSchlafly, although I disagree with your decision to remove some of the discussion here, I agree with your position.  My only issue is that your second bullet still leaves open the question of why the clocks drift, or why they need to be synchronized often, and implies that we don't have a good explanation.  However, we do have a pretty good explanation--relativity can predict such discrepancy to high precision.  If GPS is mentioned in the article, I would prefer that we insert language similar to &amp;quot;Clocks on board GPS satellites require adjustments to their clock frequencies if they are to be synchronized with those on the surface of the Earth.  Currently, relativity provides the best explanation for such adjustments (insert refs)&amp;quot;  Does that sound any better?  I'm open other suggestions.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 16:28, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't know what you mean about my &amp;quot;decision to remove some of the discussion here&amp;quot;. What discussion did I remove? I did want to remove the 1996 quote because it is out-of-date and out-of-context. Anyway, I inserted your  proposed 2 sentences. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 19:01, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I was referring to [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ATheory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=259155&amp;amp;oldid=259114 this edit]. Anyway, not that big of a deal now; I appreciate your attempt to fix the article, although those attempts have now been effectively neutered [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=next&amp;amp;oldid=259513] [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=next&amp;amp;oldid=259528].  The GPS section has now grown so large that it may now detract from learning about relativity.  I wonder if it is not better placed on the GPS article rather than this one.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 12:19, 3 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Sorry, I apparently accidentally lost some comments. I just tried to restore them. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:53, 3 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Skepticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Edits like [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=259513&amp;amp;oldid=259511 this one] made in the last few days are again consistent with the overall skepticism for relativity present in the article.  The physicist in question is indeed involved in research into alternatives to general relativity.  He appears to support [http://ecolloq.gsfc.nasa.gov/archive/2001-Spring/announce.alley.html Yilmaz theory], which is not especially well-regarded by the scientific community [http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/ASGRG/ACGRG1/fackerell.html] [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9504050].  Even if it turned out to be an improvement on GR, it would still predict time dilation and other relativity-esque things, so I don't see what would be gained by denying all of GR but then embracing Yilmaz theory.   GR is constantly being tested because a.) it is in conflict with quantum mechanics and b.) it is the current gold standard for theories of gravitation, and the limits of current gold standards are where new physics lie.  Physicists I know who are doing research on alternative theories of gravitation teach classes on relativity, and emphasize its success; they aren't &amp;quot;skeptics&amp;quot; who want to throw it in the trash.  Improvements on GR are likely to include GR as an approximation, as Newtonian mechanics is an approximation to GR.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Relativity is the current best idea we have to explain a lot of things and works to within experimental uncertainty for all tests of it performed so far.  This article should reflect that success instead of embarking on a misguided ideological quest to discredit it in favor of Newtonian mechanics, which is known to have limits.  And what I've said applies to GR; SR is even more established.  Aschlafly, your problem with relativity appears to be that it is called &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; which you believe allows it to somehow be associated with moral relativism.  Would your objections still hold if it were named &amp;quot;Reference Frame Theory&amp;quot;?  Please remove the skeptical claims, as their inclusion implies willful ignorance to anyone who visits this page.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:37, 3 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Bayes, we're factual on this site.  Exaggerations about the theory of relativity or anything else are not allowed here.  For example, one editor here claimed that relativity predicts the bending of light but that Newtonian mechanics does not.  That is false.  Some of the claims here about GPS using relativity have also been false.  This isn't allowed in a credible encyclopedia.  Go to Wikipedia if you want to stretch or distort the truth to suit your personal views about what the facts should be.  Here we state what the facts are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Similarly, we don't delete or censor factual scientific information here.  You recently deleted factual information without justification, and your deletion has been reverted.  Please abide by our [[rules]].  Thank you and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:21, 4 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy, I don't get the point of  your edits. Under Ostensible Paradoxes, you have a 2001 article that says &amp;quot;If confirmed, the finding could mean ...&amp;quot;. That was 6 years ago. Was it confirmed, or not? The following results are somewhat interesting, but obscure. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:14, 4 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Nasa on spacecraft and relativity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Three of the items found with a quick search:&lt;br /&gt;
* Cassini refines measurements of general relativity with its trip around the sun [http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press-releases-03/20031002-pr-a.cfm]&lt;br /&gt;
* Voyager 1's slingshot around Saturn showed frequency shifts in agreement with relativity [http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12517102.600-science-encounter-with-saturn-confirms-relativity-theory.html]&lt;br /&gt;
* Gravity Probe B is a satellite launched and demonstrates frame dragging and geodetic warping of space [http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html][http://einstein.stanford.edu/]&lt;br /&gt;
Given these examples, I believe the passage recently added:&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to GPS discussed above, NASA has launched numerous space probes and missions, but none of them have ever used the theory of relativity in their timing mechanisms even though they experience much weaker gravitational fields in space.&lt;br /&gt;
is inappropriate and misleading. Even if the space craft where not ''designed'' with relativity in mind (the Gravity Probe B certainly was designed with it in mind), Voyager and Cassini and others demonstrated the effects of relativity as they dipped into gravity wells and out of them with the frequency of the signal being sent to Earth.  --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 12:47, 5 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: The current statement is correct in the entry and we do not delete correct, educational information here.  You cite some interesting articles which could also be added if they are given detail and explanation suitable for a high-quality encyclopedia.  I took a quick look at your articles and they seem to be designed for public consumption, lacking satisfactory detail of a scientific level.  But feel free to add a paragraph '''without exaggeration''' that explains clearly what you think these experiments demonstrate.  In Christ,--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:55, 5 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reversion explained ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[libera]] edits and censorship have been reverted. This is not [[Wikipedia]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:04, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not trying to be liberal or censor, but I doubt anyone thought any less of Dicke due to his support of Brans-Dicke - which is merely the addition of a scalar field to the tensor of GR - in fact, all of einsteinan GR is viable under Brans-Dicke - if the scalar field is set to null - the difference is the allowable effect of long-distance large masses that is not rsquared. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 15:16, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Um... this is supposed to be targetted towards high school students.  Your really doing nothing but babbling to me, because I don't understand what you're talking about. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 20:04, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I made a change that was first related.  Even by the methods that science uses to deny christian beliefs they both fail.  Putting it that way is a little stronger, as well as more accurate.  It's kind of hard to say that &amp;quot;string theory&amp;quot; has been a failure when just about every physicist who wants to work these days needs to learn and be productive in it.  It's just entirely &amp;quot;thought experiments&amp;quot; though, and quirking math to make it fit. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 20:02, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If this article is directed at high school students, Dicke would not be mentioned, as his contribution to the theory of relativity was limited. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 09:11, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:His importance to this article for Conservapedia is that he believed in something other than General Relativity, and although very intelligent, never received a Nobel Prize for any of his findings.  The point being made is that if you disagree with GR, that you won't get a Nobel Prize. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 14:13, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Why you would disagree with GR is beyond me, but… --[[User:SimonA|SimonA]] 14:16, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Whether or not I disagree with GR is irrelevant.  This wiki has a goal and purpose, and you need speak toward that audience.  The intention of this article is to question and critique GR, not to assume that it is automatically true. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 14:21, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You realize that what [[User:PhysicsNut|PhysicsNut]] was explaining - as I understood it - was that Dicke ''didn't'' really believe in something other than General Relativity? All that &amp;quot;babbling&amp;quot; was describing why Brans-Dicke theory differs little from GR (PhysicsNut, feel free to correct me on this). [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 15:19, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That's correct. Brans-Dicke with Omega approaching infinity is General Relativity per Einstein. At no point did Dicke doubt that matter bent space-time. He merely postulated that there was another effect of matter that was not an r-squared effect. He didn't win the Nobel because someone else heard the CBR first - Dicke was just the one who realized it was proof-positive of the Big Bang. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 16:44, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: It's bias to insist on describing theories that compete with relativity in terms of relativity.  Also, the explanation for why Dicke, one of the finest physicists of the 20th century responsible for ''multiple breakthroughs'', did not win a [[Nobel Prize]] is not as plausible as the reason given.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Says who? Don't we need &amp;quot;authoritive sources for all the changes you want to make,&amp;quot; or is your insinuation that Professor Dicke (who proved the Big Bang as his most notable breakthrough) was a young-earth creationist enough?  [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 20:04, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This article is an embarrassment. Whatever - this project is obviously doomed. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 21:05, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your attitude is completely unhelpful. You should not continue to post. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 21:21, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Maybe so, Puellanivis, but still, try not to write off editors so quickly! [[User:Physicsnut|Phyiscsnut]] is only new here, and may not have understood how [[Conservapedia]] differs from [[Wikipedia]] or other [[MSM]] outlets. Many editors have moved beyond initial misunderstandings to find ways to contribute positively to Conservapedia, despite ideological differences - so you needn't necessarily drive them off right away. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 00:06, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't why there are so many edits to the content page here, and I'll have to sort through them again.  Relativity is a magnet for [[liberal bias]], but we're not going to allow such bias here.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:21, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Feebasfactor, your point is very well received.  I definitely agree with your point.  But people will not get anywhere without discussing and considering.  If they express an attitude that this site will never be helpful if it rejects their viewpoint, then that's just silly.  Aschlafly, I believe I had cleared it up fairly well with my last revert, but please feel free to review it. I think it attracts so much liberal bias, because they feel like it's home turf, or something, and get mad when anyone insults it.  I suppose it's kind of the same thing as the liberals insulting the Bible. It just evokes such a strong response, that liberals get stupid (more so) and don't stop think and consider. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 00:27, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Insult relativity all you want. Insult the memory of Robert Dicke and you can rot. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 20:04, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Physicsnut, you're making no sense.  Please don't pollute our pages with namecalling nonsense.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:11, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Nobel Prize Contradiction ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning of the section Evidence for Relativity you state that, &amp;quot;There has been little recognition by the Nobel Prize committee of either theory of relativity, and particularly scant recognition of the Theory of General Relativity.&amp;quot; This is part of your reasoning as to why GR is not scientifically viable, yet in the section Philosophical Impact of Relativity you state that Robert Dicke is still a an accomplished physician despite his never being awarded any Nobel Prizes. Now it seems to me that if you wish to still credit Robert Dicke as an accomplished physician, which is certainly true, then it would seem only fair to leave out the comment about GR never gaining Nobel recognition. At least not in the context of trying to discredit it. You can't have it both ways. Either it's possible to be reliable and not gain Nobel recognition, or not gaining Nobel recognition speaks to the validity of the subject. One or the other; can't be both. --[[User:Aralith|Aralith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your logic is defective, because Robert Dicke (physicist, not a physician) was slighted due to bias ''in favor of the theory of relativity''.  That bias obviously does not explain the lack of Nobel Prizes for relativity.  It's the lack of evidence that is the reason there.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:10, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If the Theory of Relativity is so commonly accepted among physicists (meant to write that in the last post but the wrong word came out of my fingers) how could it be that the Theory of Relativity hasn't gained Nobel recognition, which is voted on by a commitee made up of the same scientists who support said theory unless it is possible for a subject (person, theory, etc.) to be extremely important but not Nobel Prize worthy? In which case it makes perfect logical sense that both Dicke and GR could be a great person/theory respectively but not gain recognition from the Nobel committee.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== legal right to abortion ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;For example, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama helped publish an article by liberal law professor Laurence Tribe to apply the relativistic concept of &amp;quot;curvature of space&amp;quot; to promote a broad legal right to abortion.[39]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Unfortunately there is no link to the article in question. It would interest me much what the right to abortion has to do with the alleged curvature of space. Either the space is curved, or it isn't. Neither of both could ever affect my moral convictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{unsigned|Harald}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This entire section is ridiculous and irrelevant. Clearly the curvature of spacetime was being referred to as a metaphor. [[User:Kristkrispies|Kristkrispies]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Please rewrite the section and/or move text to other articles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:01, 25 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Where is the reference to Obama helping publish the article? The current reference points to the JSTOR article abstract, which does not mention Obama's involvement whatsoever. [[User:ATang|ATang]] 15:33, 29 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Paradoxes?  Nobel Prize? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why are these things labeled as paradoxes?  The  rule is the speed of light IN A VACUUM is constant WITH RESPECT TO INERTIAL FRAME.  The variability of c (the speed of light) through a medium is accepted and irrelevant as far as SR is concerned.  That is due to the absorption and reemission of photons by atoms as light hits travels through glass (or air or fiber optics cable).  Similarly, relativity neither prohibits nor &amp;quot;encourages&amp;quot; a c that varies with the age of the universe.  Indeed, the nature of the constant is still a mystery, and it may indeed be dependent on some factors we are unaware of.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If anyone is confused, shoot me an email and I'll either give you a full explanation or point you in the direction of a good resource.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, there are several reasons Einstein never received a Nobel Prize for relativity:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-he recieved a prize for the photoelectric effect,which has laid the framework for quantum mechanics (arguably just as important).  They may have had qualms over giving two to the same person (they haven't done it yet).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-initially, there was some resistance against it by the old guard of physicists who had wasted their lives pursuing the alternative (and stupid) ether explanation for the nature of c.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-the Nobel committee favors ideas that have practical applications (hence no prize for mathematics), and at the time relativity had none.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-as to why they haven't given him one recently...well, Einstein's dead, and they don't give prizes posthumously. (A sticking point, since the full significance of a theory might only be fully realized generations after its inception).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So saying the Nobel prize hasn't recognized Einstein for relativity is misleading and irrelevant.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And now I'm curious.  This article seems to have an anti-relativity bias.  Why is relativity unAmerican or unChristian (besides the fact that Einstein was a German Jew)?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And what's up with the Obama reference?  I don't think God asks politicians (liberal or conservative) for their opinions when he establishes His natural law. (unsigned by User:QED)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I looked at your edits for this and found them to be wanting.  The information on the Nobel committee is accurate.  It's a small part of the article and no specific conclusions are stated from it.  I can see why you would believe this is not a slight on relatively, nevertheless it is true as written.  In the absense of any counter evidence, such as writings by the Nobel committee explaining this, it should be allowed to stand.  Your other point is, temporarily, out of bounds.  You may believe that relativity allows for faster than light movement 'virtually', but unless you have a source, it's not going to be included.  In other words your conjecture is not going to trump a source that appears to take a neutral position.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Lastly, do not try to play the minority card again.  You aren't Johnny Cochran.  The article on Einstein is extensive and written with great respect.  I'm assuming you could already have checked it up to see the view on him at CP.  Consider this to be your one and only warning in this area. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 17:38, 29 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: User:  Learn together's analysis is superb.  The polemic comments above by QED seem to have little relation to the actual entry here, or to science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:13, 29 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The introduction refers to &amp;quot;a principle which led to the first theory&amp;quot;, but as far as I can see, there's no further reference to or explanation of this.  What is this referring to?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's been asked a couple of times above, but not answered as far as I can see:  What relevance does Obama's comment have in this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:54, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The reference to &amp;quot;principle&amp;quot; should be to postulates.  That's been fixed.  The reference to Obama is explained enough, don't you think?  It describes political support for the theory, and use (or misuse) of it for political gain.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:45, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It hasn't been explained on this talk page at all.  Harald asked the question above, Kristkrispies added a criticism, and the only reply was from Ed Poor suggesting the section be rewritten. QED asked about it also, and the reply didn't address that point.&lt;br /&gt;
:: However, rereading the footnote (or did I miss that before?), I can see a very tenuous connection, but not one that warrants it being included in this article.  I suggest it be removed.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:44, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Philip, I'm assuming you're referring to the Obama reference.  The heading explains it.  Political insights are a key part of this site, and explaining [[political benefit]] to something is essential to understanding why it is emphasized and/or misrepresented.  The [[theory of relativity]] is used, or misused, to advance [[liberal]] goals, and the Obama reference is an important illustration of that.  Would you like to see more examples?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:16, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Yes, I was referring to the Obama reference.  Not, it's actually the opposite of the heading, because it is (mis)using relativity (physics) to support something political, not political support of relativity which is what the heading refers to.  And as such, it's only of marginal if any real relevance to an article about relativity.  I guess, though, I can see ''some'' point in it.  That is, it's like an article about [[comet]]s mentioning that there was a musical group named [[The Comets]]; a bit of barely-related trivia, but the sort of thing that Wikipedia and Conservapedia sometimes do (often under the heading of &amp;quot;cultural references&amp;quot;).  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 02:10, 1 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== My edits ==&lt;br /&gt;
I added a bit more information in the introduction to general relativity, because, as written, the article didn't really explain what the idea behind general relativity was. I don't think the edit is perfect, so people are free to tweak it or add more.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 13:12, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also deleted &amp;quot;at infinite speed&amp;quot; from the sentence that said in classical physics light travels at infinite speed in a straight line. In classical physics, light still travels at c (approx 300,000 km/s), as Maxwell or any book on electrodynamics can tell you. In fact, it was this very observation that got people all caught up in the ether theory, because Maxwell's equations made direct reference to the speed of light. Consequently, people assumed that the equations had to be referring to the speed of light with respect to some fixed medium, i.e., the ether. Of course, we all know how well that theory worked out.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 13:21, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the sentence about the Nobel prize committee not recognizing SR/GR in the evidence for SR/GR section. Mostly, the sentence just seems out of place with the rest of the section. Also, the reference provided was just a link to the Nobel committee homepage.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 13:49, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the last section: time dilation and creation science. If we start including every crackpot scientific theory ever proposed, this page is going to become enormous.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 14:00, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see you are not around to respond, but including the latest creationary thinking doesn't mean that crackpot theories will be included.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:01, 16 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== New Edits, Proposed edits ==&lt;br /&gt;
This article needs some major work, and I don't mind diving in and trying to correct some things.  I added something on the equivalence principle because the existing information about general relativity was mostly mathematical with no physical insight.  I'll try to clean up more when I have more time. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also corrected a mistake about force defined in special relativity.  The way it was written it wasn't defining a vector.  --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, I would really like to clean up the experimental evidence section, but there appears to be some contention regarding GPS, so I thought I'd discuss it with other editors here.  The GPS definately DOES include some relativistic corrections.  Consider the 1996 paper referenced in the article, on page 193 of the journal, page 5 of the article the authors tell us  &amp;quot;The GPS operational control system corrects the pseudoranges measured by its monitor stations for the sum of the gravitational and velocity effects.&amp;quot;  What the article discusses is that the corrections are merely the average corrections, not the full specific velocity/gravitational effects.  The article is being used misleadingly to make an unsupported claim.  If no one objects in a day or two, I'll make the changes. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd also like to remove the stress on Dicke's theory, as Dicke's theory is basically just an extension of GR. Dicke's theory is still a metric theory of gravity involving curved space time, so most of the discussion of GR should be applicable to Dicke's theory.  Dicke's theory should probably be included in another article.  Also, the contention that Dicke didn't get a nobel because he proposed an alternative theory needs some supporting information or a citation or I think it should be removed.  Again, if no one objects, I'll make the change. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also plan, given time, to give a more &amp;quot;layman&amp;quot; style description of GR following my brief discussion on the equivalence principle.  For students, diving straight into tensors, geodesics and field equations will most likely obscure the physics. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Einstein's Cross/Ring and Gravitational Lensing==&lt;br /&gt;
I think it'd useful to have a picture of gravitational lensing in the proof section.  As I'm not an admin, I can't upload it.  There's the picture found on wikipedia which is known as &amp;quot;Einstein's Cross,&amp;quot; but there are plenty of other examples of gravitational lensing that can be found in the public domain: [http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/search.php?words=lens&amp;amp;x=0&amp;amp;y=0&amp;amp;method=and&amp;amp;format=normal&amp;amp;sort=score&amp;amp;config=picturealbum&amp;amp;restrict=entire_collection%2Fpr&amp;amp;exclude=].  I suggest picking a nice looking one and displaying it.  I'm personally partial to the double ring found here: [http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/pr2008004a/]. [[User:ArnoldFriend|ArnoldFriend]] 20:43, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The images don't add anything new of substantive value.  What's really needed here is more explanation about whether twice as much bending of light by relativity is really predicted and shown, compared to the prediction of bending of light by Newton's theory.  Most people are misled to think that Newton's theory does not predict the bending of light, when it does.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:53, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: I tried to edit, read it over, reverted it as it wasn't making sense.  However, I think there should be something about photons being able to move at speeds other than c in the bit about Newtonian lensing.  My phrasing was really poor, thus the self-revert.  I may take another crack at this later when I can get the words right.--[[User:ArnoldFriend|ArnoldFriend]] 21:22, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The bending of light in Newtonian physics is not a trivial issue.  The mass can approach zero and it still bends, for example.  How much it bends is debatable, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:35, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Do you think it'd be a good idea to create a page about the bending of light under Newtonian Dynamics?  Most people don't know about this and I think an explanation that's less technical than the linked source might help. [[User:ArnoldFriend|ArnoldFriend]] 15:07, 22 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Science And Math Facts That Prove Einstein's Blatant Error In His Relativity Theory  ==&lt;br /&gt;
With all due respect, but with regard to truth in real science, my writing here is to provide undeniable mathematical and science fact that special relativity is false science.&lt;br /&gt;
For information this math proof was written on Wikipedia about two years ago and they squelched the truth in science by a vote of 8 to 1, and even though a supposed expert in relativity wrote that the math proofs did in fact prove relativity to be totally wrong, in the end he chose to live a lie and to squelch the truth.&lt;br /&gt;
In the end you can also squelch truth in real science by determining that truth by the undeniable science and math facts written here or to live according to truth. Either is your choice but squelching will only suppress science facts and true science. So I am going to write the science and math that shows undeniable truth and you can decide. [[User:StevenCrum|StevenCrum]] 16:31, 31 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:A section on &amp;quot;critiques of Einsteinian relativity&amp;quot; would be good. Do you remember the name of the expert? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:58, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More regarding the criticism of LIGO ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a student of physics, I feel myself almost obliged to add something to the discussion regarding LIGO, particularly as I work for a Professor that is part of the LIGO collaboration and have actually attended scientific conferences where the subject is addressed (though to be fair my work with her specifically deals with another one of her collaborations, Borexino). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, as mentioned in previous discussion, it is indeed true that it was understood that LIGO, like many scientific undertakings, would need to be refined and calibrated before reaching its design sensitivity. To claim the LIGO is a failure before it has reached its design sensitivity is just as ridiculous and ignorant as criticizing any other tool or piece of equipment for not functioning before it is properly calibrated. It isn't like the LIGO collaboration is trying to pull any fast ones on anyone by being secretive about this - just do a Google search for LIGO to bring up their web page, where they discuss the details of this matter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Secondly, it is true that the &amp;quot;success&amp;quot; of the experiment cannot be known prior to its being conducted, but if it could, what would be the point in conducting the experiment in the first place? Experimentation is a necessary aspect of science because scientific investigation fundamentally deals with the discovery of knowledge not previously known to us, and because it is not known to us, even its ultimate usefulness cannot be known a priori. The rate of observed events under the initial design sensitivity is predicted to be very low, so it would not be very surprising if we did not observe anything until advanced LIGO debuts. Even still, there is a fundamental uncertainty in the rate of events that will be seen. Maxwell was once asked what the usefulness of electromagnetism could ever be, to which he replied &amp;quot;What good is a newborn baby?&amp;quot; I do not believe I need to highlight the usefulness of electromagnetism in the modern world.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which brings me to my third point, which is the enormous significance LIGO holds in terms of scientific potential. If LIGO is successful, it will revolutionize modern day astronomy by providing a new method for detecting cosmological phenomena. Gravitational radiation would offer another method of &amp;quot;imaging&amp;quot; the heavens, independent of electromagnetic radiation. To say that LIGO would have limited scientific benefit would be a serious rebuke to the field of astronomy in general. Optical astronomy would be coupled with gravitational astronomy as a valuable check on astronomical results attained by optical methods alone. But of course, the fundamental uncertainty we have as to what the observed rate of events will be reflects the fact that we do not know with complete certainty what cosmological objects exist, hence the very reason that LIGO would be useful.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even more revolutionary would be if LIGO failed to detect gravitational waves. If you only assume the existence of a gravitational field, and that disturbances in that field cannot propagate faster than the speed of light, then by the very definition of wavelike phenomena, you have gravitational waves. Gravitational radiation is a prediction of General Relativity, and as such, were it to be disproved, it would falsify a prediction of a scientific theory. To say that this is not valuable would be to suggest that, for example, Michelson's experiments in search of the aether were not valuable, whereas in reality they gave supporting evidence to the idea that there is indeed no aether. At the very least, the experiment should be able to place certain restrictions on the rate of observed events. If gravitational radiation were not found, and this represented a serious contradiction with the rate of events predicted, it would be ABSOLUTELY ENORMOUS in terms of scientific relevance, and I cannot stress that enough. Something huge, somewhere in our understanding of the world, would have to be revised, be it the idea of the gravitational field, causality itself, etc. As a practicing scientist, I would almost hope that LIGO fails to see gravitational radiation, just because the scientific implications would be so unimaginably radical and weird, and force us to completely reexamine how we perceive the universe. But this subject could be argued until it reaches the realm of some very deep scientific philosophy - scientific theory is generally not viewed as being &amp;quot;completely true&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;completely wrong,&amp;quot; but as a method of predicting physical phenomena, which eventually is replaced with a more accurate theory. Newtonian mechanics is not so much wrong, as it is not a good enough approximation in certain specific applications. If you want a metaphor, think about scientific progress as continuing to improve our Taylor expansion of the universe.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Though I suspect given the general tone of this article, somehow the death of GR would also please most of the contributors to this encyclopedia, as if General Relativity, a scientific theory, is somehow inherently a &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; idea. I'm sure that when Einstein formulated it, he envisioned it being used by Barack Obama to support a woman's legal right to terminate her pregnancy. Though, I hope for the sake of those contributors that General Relativity is either disproved, or is shown to be a &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; idea, because if it does adequately describe our universe, is a &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; idea, and God created the universe, then either God is a liberal, or he has a very weird sense of humo(u)r.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just to get this nonsense out of the way now, I'm a registered independent. I vote, based on all of the relevant information I have been able to attain via what I believe to be credible sources, for whoever I honestly believe will be able to fulfill the duties of the office they seek, and I don't think anyone can ask any more of me than that. If any of this leads some of you to believe that I am incapable of discussing the theory of General Relativity, then I surely and sincerely have nothing but pity for you. --kfratus&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: What are you talking about? The article has only one simple sentence about LIGO. Is that sentence correct or not? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:13, 23 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: First, if you'll take a closer look at the talk page, you'll notice that there has been a good amount of discussion of the usefulness of LIGO, and that was what I was principally referencing. Secondly, the article in reality contains three sentences that in some way reference LIGO, albeit only one of them by name. The last sentence specifically mentions LIGO, the second sentence is clearly directly referencing LIGO without naming it, and the first claims that research involving the theory of relativity receives a disproportionate amount of funding. I would regard the first of those sentences as a matter of scientific opinion, which I addressed in my comments by pointing out how much impact LIGO could have on the entire astronomy community. The second and third sentences may not be incorrect, so much as they are worded as half truths. LIGO has been unsuccessful, or has failed, to detect graitational waves so far. To assert that LIGO has been unsuccessful in general would be entirely untrue, and is completely dependent on your notion of the &amp;quot;success&amp;quot; of the experiment, which I also addressed - LIGO has indeed managed to reach its target sensitivity, and whether or not they manage to detect gravitational waves, their results will still have a huge impact on the field of physics, which I would consider a successful experiment. --kfratus&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Hopefully, when LIGO disproves so-called &amp;quot;[http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=gravity+waves gravity waves]&amp;quot;, a relativist working on the project will be honest enough to call LIGO what it is. In this way, LIGO may end up being a very, very expensive way of '''disproving''' relativity, once and for all.&lt;br /&gt;
:::I doubt it, though, with all that grant money on the line. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 23:35, 26 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Maybe it is unfair to say that LIGO has been unsuccessful. But what about Gravity Probe B? That experiment seemed like a big expensive flop to me. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:26, 27 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I just want to make sure that the people here criticizing LIGO understand that the frequency range of the gravitational waves it was built to detect predict a variations in spacetime by only a factor of 10^-21.  LIGO's longest vacuum tubes are 4km long.  So physicists are attempting to measure a change in length approximately 1/2500th the diameter of an atomic nucleus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Yes, that is why some people predicted that LIGO would fail. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:58, 7 April 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And to the poster who linked to youtube video of &amp;quot;gravity waves&amp;quot;.  Those ARE NOT gravity waves.  Those are clouds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::As a passer-by stumbling upon your conversation, I never really meant to end up leaving this many posts, and I apologize if I'm violating your 90/10 rule, or anything like that. But I just wanted to clarify something that I see come up very often. I frequently run into people who have this impression that all scientists are members of some secret organization that is trying to hold knowledge from the public, and that they have their own personal reasons for trying to manipulate the body of scientific knowledge. While I cannot speak for all scientists, any of the ones that I have ever met (myself included), would be absolutely more than happy to welcome more people to our field of study. Most physicists I have met enjoy what they do, and would be very willing to pass their knowledge onto others (and one would have to admit that if we were somehow manipulating the entire body of public knowledge, we'd have to be doing a pretty good job of keeping every single scientist in the entire world quiet about the real truth - not very practical). And with respect to the comments made by BHarlan, I can assure you that most scientists would actually LOVE to disprove general relativity. In many cases, scientists are not famous because they confirm the prediction of a theory, but because they disprove one, thereby radically changing what we know about the world around us. The reason Einstein was so famous was because he disproved the Newtonian picture of the universe, not because he confirmed some prediction of it. But this is just like any other profession - think about it, if a rival of yours was successful in some way, wouldn't you be just dieing to somehow prove them wrong and rub it in their face? Scientists are people too, subject to the same personality traits as everyone else. This is why most physicists feel relatively comfortable with the scientific process - they know that if something is proposed as a theory, there will be a thousand people just itching to prove it wrong, thereby stealing the limelight for themselves. I think that if I ever found a way to disprove relativity, I'd practically have a heart attack out of excitement (and you can be sure I'd get a Nobel prize for it, too). In fact, it is already a well known fact that GR must be wrong at at least some level, because as it is formulated now, it's not compatible with some of the basic tenets of quantum mechanics. Though, I'm still pretty sure we'll see gravity waves, if you want my opinion. Gravity waves are predicted by ideas much more fundamental than GR (aka, the finite speed of light), and so GR could be be wrong, and we could still have gravity waves - as long as you define the propagating influence of gravity as a &amp;quot;wave,&amp;quot; and assume that information can't travel faster than the speed of light, then there you have it, really. And with respect to the video of the clouds, those are actually &amp;quot;gravity waves,&amp;quot; but of a different sort. The term comes from how the Earth's gravitational field effects atmospheric conditions. So it is the same term for two very different things, which unfortunately may lead to some confusion for some people. And with respect to Gravity Probe B, I admit that I do not know as much about that experiment, and off the top of my head would not really be able to debate it. Though if I remember correctly its data analysis is scheduled to continue into 2010, so I would hesitate to say anything until then (other than the fact that in principle, I find its goals fairly relevant - if you really wanted to test the geometrical nature of GR, you should try to confirm/disprove one of its craziest, most non-intuitive predictions - aka, frame-dragging). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::But I can assure you, I have met plenty of people who are very politically conservative, and believe in gravity waves. In fact, many deeply spiritual people believe that relativity is a sign of God's existence. The basic idea goes that if relativity were not true, there would have to be some preferred reference frame, which would have to be chosen somewhat arbitrarily. But how could a divine creator just make some arbitrary choice like that? Not very elegant, if you ask me. In fact, I have heard that some people actually cry when they finally understand GR, because of what an elegant theory it is. If you want to read more about ideas like that, I definitely suggest Brian Greene's book, &amp;quot;Fabric of the Cosmos.&amp;quot; If you want my honest opinion, I have yet to come across anything in my study of physics that I believe is a serious threat to the existence of some intelligent creator. From what I can gather, most physicists don't even concern themselves with such an aim - if God exists, then he exists. Our goal is to study what we can see, and make useful predictions based on that. If it's all just a result of God, then so be it. The only result will be that we've come to know Him a little better through out study of the universe and its workings. --kfratus&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: The article hardly says anything about gravity waves. Are you suggesting some change to the article? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:00, 12 April 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== General Questions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The article suggests that Newtonian physics somehow suggest the bending of light, which is impossible according to Newtonian physics. Since a photon has zero mass, it cannot be bent by the force as described by Newton. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Huh? I thought it was Newton who '''discovered''' the bending of light, which occurs as light enters a [[prism]]. It is because the various frequencies of light bend by different amounts that we get the [[rainbox]] effect (see [[spectrum]]). Or I have I totally forgotten my [[high-school physics]] and [[history of science]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:00, 19 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next point, Newton's action-at-a-distance theory of gravity seems to be taken as fact. The idea that general relativity violates this is used as a point against it. Newton himself stated, and I quote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is inconceivable, that inanimate brute matter should, without the&lt;br /&gt;
mediation of something else, which is not material, operate upon, and&lt;br /&gt;
affect other matter without mutual contact; as it must do, if gravitation,&lt;br /&gt;
...., be essential and inherent in it. And this is one reason, why I&lt;br /&gt;
desired you would not ascribe innate gravity to me. That gravity should&lt;br /&gt;
be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act&lt;br /&gt;
upon another, at a distance through vacuum, without the mediation of&lt;br /&gt;
anything else, by and through their action and force may be conveyed&lt;br /&gt;
from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no&lt;br /&gt;
man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking,&lt;br /&gt;
can ever fall into it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefor, even the founder of classical mechanics saw action-at-a-distance as problem, so how is it in any way evidence to contradict a well tested theory?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, ignoring phenomena such as quantum entanglement, are we? --[[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:57, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Actually, no. The reason that a grand unified theory is necessary is because of the discrepancies of the quantum world and the macro world. Both have been tested, neither conclusively, but evidence is in their favor. All I am saying here is that you can't use this (logically) as a point to disqualify an entire theory. Especially when you use this point when referencing a person (Newton) who had a problem with it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Kindly use the signature button (10th from the left above) to &amp;quot;sign&amp;quot; your comments, so we can tell who's saying what.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Newton assumed nothing; he &amp;quot;feigned no hypotheses.&amp;quot;  Accordingly, he didn't have &amp;quot;a problem with it.&amp;quot;  It was his peers who could not accept it.  Newton's quote above does not question &amp;quot;action at a distance,&amp;quot; but is commenting on the nature of matter.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Many still refuse to accept action at a distance (and non-locality), as your own viewpoints demonstrate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Still refuse? As one of your relatives pointed out, there is some support for it, such as quantum entanglement, but on a large scale (say larger than the what is it now, 1 km?) past where quantum entanglement has been proven, there is no proof or any proof to suggest it should be true. And, I'm sorry, but I have to say. Don't assign my viewpoints to me sir. I will decide what I think based on fact. What I form as opinion, I will state as such. I don't understand how people can read this article with any knowledge of physics and agree with it. None of my professors, mentors, or scientists that I have met would support such statements. The fact that you are doing so proves the disgusting and twisted lengths that some people will go to in order to make established fact comply with their own super-conservative beliefs. It is people like yourselves that are ruining the republican party and make me scared for the future of America.--[[User:RobertSJ|RobertSJ]] 23:22, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: So even though non-locality and action at a distance have been fully proven in laboratory experiments, you claim &amp;quot;there is no proof or any proof to suggest it should be true&amp;quot; ''beyond a certain distance''.  Surely you don't think there is one set of laws for less than an arbitrary distance, and another set of laws for larger than an arbitrary distance.  No, the real problem here is that some people, perhaps including yourself, do not and will not accept action at a distance regardless of the proof.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next point, several &amp;quot;obscure physicists&amp;quot; is not the same as almost the entire community of physicists (which is the actual truth here.) Gravitational redshift perfectly explains the way that signals between earth and GPS satellites are different in time. That is how current GPS positions are calculated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You mention LIGO at the very end and gravity waves as well. There is no prior mention. The prior mentions should explain what gravity waves are, why they are so weak, why they can probably only be detected from very massive binary systems, and why even when these massive binary systems are found the radiation should be so weak that the immense precision of LIGO and LISA are required.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just some points on things that are not accurate or need to be clarified in order to not leave the reader with a false interpretation of scientific fact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Also edit, I am a physics major attending a well-respected and also conservative school (Vanderbilt). I have conducted research in physics at a national lab (ORNL), and like to keep up on this kind of thing. I am a moderate but conservative leaning voter.--[[User:RobertSJ|RobertSJ]] 23:22, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: I responded in greater detail above, but let me just add that not everything you've learned is true, and not everything your professors state is true either.  Hopefully you'll admit at least that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Photons have zero rest mass, but they are not at rest. A reference is given for the deflection of light as predicted by relativity theory. So the article seems to be correct about the bending of light. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:41, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wish that critics of CP would help us write [[basic physics]] articles instead of trying to &amp;quot;prove us wrong&amp;quot;. Please help me finish the &amp;quot;[[bending of light]]&amp;quot; article, in accordance with what we all agree about Newton's discoveries many decades ago. Then we can discuss how to present [[quantum physics]], okay? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:04, 19 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Non-Locality and Quantum Field Theory ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is no action at a distance, nor non-locality, in quantum mechanics nor field theory. None. You're confusing two different subjects.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, action at a distance: True, in Newton's gravity, there is action at a distance. But this is totally different from anything to be found in QM or field theory, which have no action at a distance. All Hamiltonians in the standard models of field theory (QED, electroweak, QCD) are strictly local Hamiltonians.  Forces are exerted by passing virtual bosons back and forth in space, like footballs.  Interactions (like electron/photon, then photon/electron) are all 100% local.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The fact that Newton's theory assumed action at a distance (without proof) does not mean that ALL theories require action at a distance.  Why should that follow?  Why should modern theories be limited by Newton's unproved assumptions?  Quantum field theory is immensely more accurate, measured objectively, than Newton's gravity force ever was.  QED (with special relativity built in) predicted the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron accurate to one part in a TRILLION. Newton's theory was never even close to that level of accuracy!  Newton could never accurately compute the orbit of Mercury or gravitational lensing to one part in a trillion! Or billion.  By objective criteria, field theory is more accurate than Newton.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Second, non-locality: non-locality is not the same as action at a distance. Action at a distance requires exertion of a FORCE. Nothing in QM is in fact non-local.  The only thing non-local about QM is the Copenhagen interpretation of wavefunction collapse, which is not a part of the equations, but a way of visualizing the effect of observation a QM system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You have mentioned quantum entanglement as a supposed example of non-locality.  Entanglement, and phenomena like quantum teleportation, do not exert FORCES, so they are not actiona at a distance!  Further, quantum entanglement can never be used to transmit information faster than the speed of light.  Hence, there's no contradiction between QM and SR.  Field theory has SR built in.  There is no experiment, in quantum teleportation nor EPR paradox, Bell's inequality etc., that can possibly transmit information FTL. Describe one experiment, just one entanglement experiment, that can supposedly transmit info FTL.  I dare you.  Just one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So what is this supposed &amp;quot;non-locality&amp;quot; then? The Copenhagen interpretation of QM says that the wavefunction should &amp;quot;collapse&amp;quot; (revert to a single eigenfunction) everywhere simultaneously when an observation is made.  If this really happened, it would be a problem for SR, because in SR, simultaneity is relative to the observer. But, two problems. First, this supposed &amp;quot;collapse&amp;quot; can never be observed and can never be used to transmit info FTL.  Second, the Copenhagen interpretation is deeply flawed because it never defined what an &amp;quot;observation&amp;quot; was. It is no longer the most popular interpretation; among physicists, the Many Worlds interpretation is more popular now, because it precisely defines what observation means, in terms of quantum decoherence, so MWI connects better to macroscopic thermodynamics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you want to (groan) argue the point, you can argue that Copenhagen and Many Worlds are both non-local, but so what?  They're visualizations, not equations, and certainly not forces, nor &amp;quot;actions&amp;quot;!! When neither visualization scheme can be used to transmit info FTL, nor exert a force, this is no problem for SR at all!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The only big problem here is that field theory is incompatible with GR, not SR.  True. Everybody knows this is the biggest problem in physics. No one knows whether the flaw is in GR, field theory, or both.  However, either way, there is no problem between field theory and SR.  Field theory has SR built in, and is (objectively measured) the most precise scientific theory in history. If you argue this, I'll swamp you with experimental proofs. [[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 15:53, 18 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Cuddlytakun&amp;quot;, you've obviously made up your mind that [[action at a distance]] and [[non-locality]] must not exist.  But all evidence is against your view.  Would you support spending another billion dollars of taxpayer money looking for [[gravitons]] to support your view?  I hope not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:How about this:  raise ''private'' capital for searching for gravitons to support your philosophy.  Then we'll see how many really agree with you, rather than just going along for the ride.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:10, 18 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Au contrere mon frere, you made up your mind that action at a distance is the only type force possible.  I have nowhere said action at a distance is impossible.  I've said Newton never proved, could not prove, it was the ONLY possibility. I suppose it's possible for both to exist.  In field theory this would mean a Hamiltonian that is part local and part non-local.  Sometimes the idea is kicked around. Mathematically, non-local Hamiltonians are a pain in the ass to compute with, and counterintuitive, but theoretically possible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why have you decided that action at a distance is the only possibility? Just because Newton's theory assumed it without proof, this does not mean all forces in nature must likewise be action at a distance.  Think about this: suppose you and I are ice-skating. I toss you a football. When I throw the ball, reaction force pushes me backward. When you catch it, the collision pushes you away from me.  Basic repulsive force at a distance, composed of local pairwise interactions. All forces in the standard model (electrodynamic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear; that is electroweak and QCD) work that way. The footballs are virtual bosons of spin 1.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;All evidence is against your view&amp;quot;? What evidence? What are you talking about!? &amp;quot;Your view&amp;quot;? Hell of a dismissive thing to say. It's not &amp;quot;my view&amp;quot;, it's the view of everybody in physics, including Weinberg and Wilczek. Do you even know the meaning of the quotes you lifted out of Wilczek and Weinberg's speeches!? Seriously, do you have any evidence in mind, any at all, or are you just blowing smoke?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So you drag funding issues into it. As you know, the Europeans paid for the Large Hadron Collider so all the geniuses are moving to Europe. The last smart person to leave America, please turn out the lights.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But don't dismiss field theory as &amp;quot;philosophy&amp;quot;. You're playing word games because you can't back up your statements with facts. These are facts: with field theory, you can predict the experimental value of the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron to one part in a trillion. Of the muon, to one part in a billion. You can compute the mass of protons and neutrons and mesons from first principles, a priori!  Which is an inherently relativistic computation (m = E/c2, with E from local QCD.) The Z boson's existence and mass were predicted before its discovery via electroweak theory, which is an entirely local Hamiltonian.  Newton's gravity could never compute anything to an accuracy of one part in a billion, or compute masses of particles a priori, or predict new particles before they're observed!  Why do you call field theory philosophy, but Newton's theory is science?  Explain the definition of &amp;quot;philosophy&amp;quot; you're using here. Word games! &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 23:55, 18 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your &amp;quot;word-to-substance ratio&amp;quot; is very high; you are likely a [[liberal]].  See point 2 in [[liberal style]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I beg you to open your mind and learn here, for your own sake.  Look at how you refused to address my simple point.  Instead you cling to your perception of what you think others believe.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:11, 19 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How can I address your point, when there's no way to know what IS your point? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is your point &amp;quot;All evidence is against your view&amp;quot;? OK, dish it out. Just list the top 3 evidences showing that action at a distance is the only way possible for particles to interact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My point is: the horrible paragraph in the Intro about non-locality and field theory, incorrectly implies field theory is defective. It is not. Field theory is the most successful theory in the history of science.  Weinberg's statement about field theory not being &amp;quot;robust&amp;quot; cannot be assessed by the reader because &amp;quot;robust&amp;quot; is not defined in this context. Weinberg's speech was written in '79, his criticisms were resolved by later successes of QCD and QED, as Wilczek described. That paragraph should go.  You're trashing relativity and field theory too. Why? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Write 3 sentences. Top 3 evidences that action at a distance is the only way for particles to interact. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 16:10, 21 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:How about ONE evidence, Cuddles?  Like the evidence that you refused to go beyond talk and ''improve the articles''.  Nothing happened at all by way of action of your part, either in this article, nor in [[Quantum field theory]], which definately needs improvement.  Instead of action, all we get is gab from you.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 16:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
OK. I have significantly updated the page on [[Quantum field theory]]. EdPoor said the page needed writing, and Karajou asked me to make an improvement, so I rewrote it. Now I'm going to fix the last paragraph in the Intro, which trashes field theory. Here I'm going to explain and justify my rewrites, line by line.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;...which [Relativity] assume that time is an intrinsic part of space and assumes absolute locality.&amp;quot; I have rewritten as &amp;quot;Unlike Newtonian mechanics, in which space and time intervals are each invariant as seen by all observers, in SR the only invariant quantity is a quadratic combination of space and time intervals (x&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; - c t&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It does not make sense to say that in relativity &amp;quot;time is part of space&amp;quot;, nor is space part of time. The theory is about a space-time continuum, not time as part of space! They're symmetric in the metric, but with different signs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The non-locality of quantum mechanics and Newtonian physics contradicts the theories of relativity&amp;quot; I have rewritten as &amp;quot;The (assumed) instantaneous transmission of Newtonian gravitational effects contradicts special relativity.&amp;quot; This statement is more accurate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What does it mean to say &amp;quot;Quantum mechanics is non-local&amp;quot;? Vague. Quantum wavefunctions are non-local, and in the event of quantum entanglement (correlation) the wavefunction is multi-particle. But this is not relevant to relativity because real particles (unlike virtual particles) cannot transmit info faster than light (light cone restriction conserves causality). No entanglement experiment (e.g. teleportation) can transmit info faster than light, in fact teleportation requires classical info transmission SLOWER than light, look it up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Copenhagen interpretation of the collapse of the wavefunction upon observation is non-local but it is an interpretation, and likewise, cannot transmit info faster than light.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'Causality breaks down under relativity if information can be transmitted faster than the speed of light. In addition, the uncertainty principle suggests that light photons must sometimes travel faster than the speed of light despite the assumption of relativity; &amp;quot;[t]he only known way to resolve this tension involves introducing the idea of antiparticles.&amp;quot;[6]' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have rewritten as: 'In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle suggests that virtual particles can sometimes travel faster than the speed of light which would violate causality, but &amp;quot;[t]he only known way to resolve this tension involves introducing the idea of antiparticles.&amp;quot;[6] Consequently, in 1928 Paul Dirac derived the Dirac equation, one of the first quantum mechanical equations compatible with special relativity, by which Dirac predicted the existence of antimatter. Four years later, antimatter (the positron) was discovered by Carl Anderson, as successfully predicted beforehand by relativistic quantum mechanics.'&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This statement accurately reflects the facts that, first, some quantum mechanical equations are compatible with SR (e.g. Dirac equation, Klein-Gordon equation), and that Dirac's prediction of antimatter before its discovery was a SUCCESS for relativistic quantum mechanics, not a failure! Which is the point Wilczek was making in the citation from his Nobel speech: success, not failure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Quantum field theory is another attempt to partially reconcile relativity with quantum mechanics. But &amp;quot;quantum field theory, which was born just fifty years ago from the marriage of quantum mechanics with relativity, is a beautiful but not very robust child.&amp;quot;[7]&amp;quot; I have rewritten as &amp;quot;[[Quantum field theory]], a generalization of quantum mechanics, is fully compatible with special relativity but not with general relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have deleted the quote from Weinberg because it gives the inaccurate picture that there's something wrong with field theory. There isn't.  The [[Quantum field theory]] article lists some of its many successes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 16:46, 22 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proof ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The proofs for relativity are both mathematical and physical, yet this article tries to say otherwise. If someone doesn't know them then can I please put them in without them being edited out within minutes?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Unlikelyconvert|Unlikelyconvert]] 13:14, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You're not going to push anything that is false here.  Make your very best edit first and let's see how that looks, before you spend a lot of time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:20, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I haven't tried to push anything, I've made a few edits already, corrected a couple of scientific mistakes, and said this. Can you please open your mind for just 10 minutes and look at both sides of this debate? Look at the overwhelming consensus on relativity, and then I will look at any source you give me forwarding your viewpoint. As I've said in another talk page, I am willing to change my views if you can prove them.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Unlikelyconvert|Unlikelyconvert]] 13:27, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: My mind is open, and I've invited you to make your very best edit first.  Or, alternatively, state it here.  Keep your word-to-substance ratio low, however.  See [[liberal style]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:30, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Looking above, many people have stated the mathematical proofs in their different forms, yet you dismissed most of them almost out of hand. And I am not a liberal in respect to your definition, I am the (in my experience) the more common kind, the kind who will accept evidence. And you don't seem that open minded, as when i offered to put in proofs you started by saying I was trying to spread falsehoods. Proof makes something true, not false.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Unlikelyconvert|Unlikelyconvert]] 13:34, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm going to move on to more substantive edits.  Your word-to-substance ratio has been very high.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:20, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm going to ban uc if he doesn't stop trying to make people change their minds. If he wants to provide information about a novel, unproven or untested theory he's welcome to do that. He can even write about a theory which we conservatives know is false, provided that he doesn't try to present it as '''valid'''. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Our policy is to label advocacy as such. Say, for example, that Professor X asserts theory Y because of Z. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:22, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Complex equations of relativity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What do you mean when you write that &amp;quot;Unlike most of physics, the theories of relativity consist of complex mathematical equations...&amp;quot;.  I believe that most people would consider Maxwell's equations complex...not to mention the equations found in quantum mechanics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your quote is misleadingly incomplete, and Maxwell's equations do not describe an additional dimension.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:24, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Sorry if my abbreviated quotation was misleading.  I wrote it that way because I perceived that this article was intending to state that the theories of relativity are more complex than other physical theories.  Perhaps I misunderstood the intent.  In either case, I agree that the relativity equations are complex, but other physical theories are just as complex.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Maxwell's equations desribe electric and magnetic fields as a function of three spatial dimensions and time.  Although descriptions of relativity may refer to time as the fourth dimension, the equations of relativity use only three spatial dimensions and incorporate time as a fourth MATHEMATICAL dimension (which does not mean that it is another spatial dimension).--[[User:RustyR|RustyR]] 13:06, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Sir [[Arthur Eddington]] bragged that he was only one of a few people who could understand relativity.  Really, it's absurd for you to claim that the four-dimensional system of relativity is not more complex mathematically than most other physics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:35, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Quantum Field Theory/Changes to the Intro ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The introduction currently contains false information- it asserts that relativity stands apart from the rest of physics, in that it relies on hypotheses and complex mathematics.  All of physics relies on hypotheses and mathematics- for instance: Newtonian mechanics relies on the assumptions F=ma, objects at rest remain at rest, objects in motion remain in motion.  Quantum mechanics relies on the Von Neumann postulates,etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, the mathematics of special relativity are really no more complicated then Newtonian mechancis, and less complicated then Maxwell's equations or quantum mechanics.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The introduction also asserts that quantum field theories are not entirely successful (in combining special relativity with quantum mechanics).  This is blatantly not true-the standard model is the most successful theory we have, and it is a quantum field theory. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The last change I made was to the rewording of the assumptions of relativity in section 1.  The constant speed of light cannot be reworded as nothing can travel faster then light- the latter follows from the former.  The first is an assumption of the theory, the second a result of the theory (the difference between an axiom and a statement proven from the axiom).    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, I think the paragraph about special relativity and Newtonian gravity being in conflict is an excellent opportunity to talk about the need for general relativity, so I would like to add something about that. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On a stylistic note, maybe the references to quantum mechanics should be grouped together in their own section, or their own article?  Also, perhaps-we should include an &amp;quot;evidence for&amp;quot; section to contrast with the &amp;quot;evidence against&amp;quot;?--[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:38, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You've made a number of false assertions here.  Newton expressly rejected relying on hypotheses.  His physics is based on observation, in contrast with relativity, where mathematics was developed first and then data was sought to support it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Relativity relies on four-dimensional space; other physics does not.  It was widely claimed for years that few could understand relativity, and Eddington even has a famous quotation to that effect.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Quantum Field Theory is incomplete at best and incoherent at worst.  Even one of the rare Nobel Prizes for it has an admission of incompleteness in the acceptance speech.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Relativity is a liberal's fantasy, and Obama even supposedly helped with a paper drawing liberal conclusions from it.  Too bad it's all assumption and little more.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Experiment has born relativity out time and time again.  Michelson Morley, Ives-Stilwell, Pound-Rebka,Shapiro time delay, etc.  The Tevatron has been confirming special relativity millions of times every second for years now.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now, as to Newton- Newton made a famous statement about relying on hypothesis, that does not mean he didn't do it.  I recommend his famous paper on prisms (http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/).  He advanced a particulate model of light, etc.  Newton did make hypothesis, and his physics relied on it.  Again, F=ma, the existence of inertial frames, etc. Quantum mechanics rests on highly mathematical postulates (the Von Neumann postulates).  At least relativity's postulates are about physics, not mathematics. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now, when you discuss relativity, you are conflating special and general.  General relativity requires a great deal of mathematics, and it is general relativity that Eddington's famous quote was about.  Special relativity is much easier.  Changing time from an evolution parameter (as in Newton) to a coordinate (relativity) does not complicate things much.  Single variable calculus and a good knowledge of algebra is enough mathematics to come to grips with the field.  Quantum mechanics and Maxwell's equations require a solid knowledge of vector calc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Lastly, a quick perusal of the nobel prizes awarded to work on the Standard Model/Field Theories since 1965- 1965,1967,1968,1972,1979,1980,1982,1984,1988,1990,1995,1999,2004,2008.  Its not rare at all, a bit better than 1/3 of the prizes.  Further, claiming something doesn't make it so- quantum field theories are the most precisely tested theories in all of science.  g-2 of the electron is the most precise measurement mankind has made, and it matches the theoretical calculation to 10 significant figures.  What more could you ask of in a theory?  --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 15:45, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 1: no experiment has confirmed either of the two basic assumptions of special relativity, or many of the claims that are mathematically derived from those assumptions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 2: you seem to think F=ma is a hypothesis rather than a definition of force.  Regardless, your argument does not negate Newton's quote or affect any aspect of this entry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 3: we do consider special and general relativity to be part of the same overall theory, as most people do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 4: your reference to &amp;quot;significant figures&amp;quot; (the better term &amp;quot;significant digits&amp;quot;) is plainly silly and meaningless.  The string of dates for Nobel Prizes counts for even less.  When the prize was genuinely given for quantum field theory, the recipient honestly acknowledged how inadequate the progress has been.  I don't know of anyone who seriously disputes that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Look, we can cut through a ton of subterfuge if you would just address my last point, which you avoided:  liberals like Obama (and you?) like relativity for its political ramifications.  Suit yourself, but don't pretend it is based on physical observations rather than unproven assumptions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:51, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: : I agree with WLink. It is just not true that the math of relativity was developed before the physics. Relativity does not rely on 4-dimensional space any more than quantum field theory. The first 2 paragraphs of the article (starting with &amp;quot;Unlike&amp;quot;) are false in almost every detail.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The progress in quantum field theory has been huge. Who said it was inadequate? If so, I dispute that, and all those Nobel prizes dispute it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: What are the politics of relativity? Maybe you should spell that out. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:08, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The politics driving relativity is self-evident:  moral relativism, curvature of values, no fundamental frame of reference, no action at a distance, and an implicit denial of the arrow of time.  Read the famous Tribe/Obama paper if you want detailed application to specific political issues, such as abortion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Name one productive advance made possible by the &amp;quot;huge&amp;quot; progress in quantum field theory.  There aren't any.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: General relativity, which is the main component of relativity, certainly was developed before physical observations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:43, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 1: Now you are essentially restating the problem of induction- it is a problem with ALL of science, not just relativity. Also, Michelson Morley DOES essentially test the constant speed of light postulate.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 2: As I said above, even if we take Newton as a special case, what about quantum mechanics, Electricity and magnetism, etc.  All require assumptions! Even if Newton's quote were true, Newtonian science would be the exception, not the rule.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 3: Most people consider special and general relativity different, but related theories.  They are usually taught in separate courses, and have different domains of usefulness (general relativity being a theory of gravity is used in gravitational problems.  Special relativity being a theory of fast moving things is used in particle accelerators).  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 4- the point about significant digits is not silly- quantum field theory makes the most precise/accurate prediction of any theory of all of science. Further, everyone of those Nobels I listed was given for an aspect of field theory.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As to your last point- reality is what reality is.  Whether or not liberals can twist something to fit their ideology is irrelevant.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But, I give up.  I wanted to add my expertise as a particle physicist to your educational resource.  If you don't want what I have to offer, I have more productive things to do. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 19:12, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 1: No, the Morley experiment comes nowhere near confirming the postulate of relativity about the speed of light.  And it's absurd to tar all of science with the sweeping, unproven assumptions on which relativity depends.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 2: Your answer is unresponsive.  Nothing else in physics depends so heavily on broad, far-fetched assumptions as relativity does.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 3: Your answer is disproved by the name &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; itself.  It is the general theory, of which special relativity is a special case.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 4: Your claim that something &amp;quot;makes the most precise/accurate prediction of any theory of all of science&amp;quot; is a familiar and silly assertion made by liberals.  You haven't explained why that claim should be meaningful, and it isn't.  High school-level electromagnetism can make ''completely'' precise predictions.  If you think there is a striking insight made available by only quantum field theory, then let's hear it.  But pretending it is great does not make it so.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: On your last point:  you're plainly wrong in claiming that &amp;quot;[w]hether or not liberals can twist something to fit their ideology is irrelevant,&amp;quot; because you studied in school what liberals like and haven't even heard with an open mind contrary viewpoints.  If you received a good grade for the reciting liberal viewpoints, then it becomes even more difficult for you to reconsider.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: We want open-minded talent here.  If you give up, then it is because your mind was made up.  I urge you to open your mind more, but that's obviously up to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:43, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, relativity does not rest on assumptions or complex equations any more than any other theory of physics. It is not true that electromagnetism can make accurate predictions without relativity. Maxwell's theory is a relativistic theory. The origin of special relativity is in Maxwell's equations, not in any unconfirmed assumptions. I have pointed to 8 false and unsourced sentences in the article. Your comments make no sense. What do you think the Michelson-Morley experiment was measuring? Do you have some interpretation of it that differs from everyone who has ever written on the subject? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 22:34, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You seem to be relying on some kind of fundamental distinction between special and general relativity.  Special relativity is simply (as its name suggests) a special case of general relativity.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The Michelson-Morley experiment does not establish the assumption of relativity about the speed of light, or relativity's insistence that action-at-a-distance is impossible.  We can edit the Michelson-Morley entry here if you want to get into the details of what it showed, and did not show.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Basic electrical circuits, like the kind in computers, are predicted perfectly by electromagnetics without any use of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:42, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Mathematically, special relativity is tangent to general relativity. I am just using common terminology. If you don't believe relativity, that is your business, but it is essential for all of physics in the last 150 years. And yes, it is needed to understand the electromagnetism used in computers. I suggest you find sources for your statements. I repeat, I count 8 false and unsourced sentences just in the first couple of paragraphs. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 22:59, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The claim that relativity &amp;quot;is essential for all of physics in the last 150 years&amp;quot; is a standard over-the-top assertion of those who were fed it in school and have never reconsidered since.  The truth is no one can cite a single achievement of value by the theory.  For something supposedly so essential for 150 years, don't you find it odd that you cannot cite anything of value that has come from it???&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: I was just pointing out errors in the article, and not trying to start a discussion on &amp;quot;value&amp;quot;. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 23:38, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Special relativity introduced the equivalence of mass and energy, and that explained the extraordinary kinetic energy of the products of radioactive decay and led to harnessing both nuclear power and the nuclear weapons which defeated Japan and maintained peace for sixty years.  [[User:Linuxgal|Linuxgal]] 23:45, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Linuxgal's comment illustrates, perhaps innocently, one (of many) false claims promoted by relativists.  In fact, relativity had nothing to do with the Manhattan Project.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Here's a basic question that relativists should answer:  have taxpayers recovered the hundreds of millions of dollars of their money that have been spent in pursuit of relativity claims, such as the futile search for gravitons?  (Of course the answer is &amp;quot;no&amp;quot;.)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:50, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Sorry to butt in, but I'm wondering how relativity is at all linked to modern electronics.  From my (admittedly limited) knowledge, quantum mechanics fundamentally underpins modern electronics (CPU design has to account for quantum tunneling, etc.), but the precepts of relativity are totally irrelevant at the microscopic scale. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 00:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: No, relativity is not irrelevant. Magnetism is understood as a relativistic effect. The theories that make Maxwell, Dirac, and Feynman famous are all relativistic. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 03:34, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: It's true that relativity has nothing to do with modern electronics, that's actually explained by Quantum Electrodynamics, but Einstein opened that up with his paper on the photon, which was published in 1905 together with his first relativity paper, and people mash it all together (BTW I was the one posting as Linuxgal, I didn't know we had to use real names). Gravitons are not a relativity claim, it is an attempt to make gravity into a gauge field theory like electromagnetism and nuclear forces, which use bosons to mediate interactions between particles (and there's no evidence for it)...general relativity explains gravity as particles following a &amp;quot;geodesic&amp;quot; in the warped geometry of space-time [[User:RubyR|RubyR]] 09:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Relativity has produced nothing of value, and this discussion isn't doing any better.  The replies above are unresponsive to my points, and historically incorrect.  Are you saying that taxpayers should be forced to pay for this unproductive work?  Do you donate to it?  if your answer is &amp;quot;yes, no&amp;quot; then that speaks volumes.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: RubyR/Linuxgal is incorrect. Quantum electrodynamics has everthing to do with relativity. QED was created to make quantum mechanics relativistic, and it is a fully relativistic theory. That is how we got the Dirac equation of the electron. Without relativity, there is no QED, and no understanding of modern electronics. However, QED has nothing to do with with Einstein's 1905 paper on the photon. Einstein proposed that light is transmitted as a particle, rather than a wave, but QED treats light transmission as a wave.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Andy, this Talk page is for improving the article. I suggest fixing the errors, and let the reader decide for himself whether relativity is worth taxpayer support. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:01, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::: I'm all for correcting &amp;quot;falsehoods&amp;quot;, but let's start with your own comments.  You say, &amp;quot;Without relativity, there is no QED, and no understanding of modern electronics.&amp;quot;  That's just wrong, historically and logically.  The inventors of the transistor at Bell Labs had probably never even taken a course in relativity, let alone used it.  Relativity does not come up in the basic QM courses taught in college.  Virtually no papers about electronics even mention relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:52, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: The transistor inventors used Maxwells equations, a relativisitic theory. Yes, you can learn basic QM (eg, Heisenberg, Schodinger, von Neumann) theory without relativity, but you need relativity for QED (eg, Dirac, Feynman). There is no understanding of quantum fields, except using relativity. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:24, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: Maxwell's theory predates relativity by thirty years or more.   It is Maxwell that informed Einstein, not the other way round.  [[User:RubyR|RubyR]] 14:38, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::::: That's right, Maxwell predated Einstein by 30 years or so. Your point? Maxwell's equations are still relativistic, ie, invariant under the Lorentz group. Maxwell's equations are taught and understood today in terms of relativity. You can view special relativity as just a way of understanding Maxwell's equations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:11, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::::: A relativist tries to view everything in terms of relativity ... including morality and values and an alleged impossibility of action-at-a-distance like what is described in the Bible.  Next thing we'll be hearing relativists claim that Edison's work was relativistic too!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::::: Ruby is right.  Call relativity Maxwellian if you like, but not vice-versa.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:28, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::::::: When I make the claim that relativity has nothing to do with electronics, it is to a first order approximation.  NASA/JPL engineers fly their space probes all around the solar system with a high degree of accuracy without resorting to Einstein's relativistic corrections to Newton's basic theory.  About the only place where relativity must be taken into account in electronics is the collating electromagnets at the CERN collider, where proton streams are accelerated to very close to the velocity of light. Otherwise the &amp;quot;slop&amp;quot; inherent in digital timing (you must wait for a signal to stabilize before accepting it as valid) buries the effects. [[User:RubyR|RubyR]] 16:35, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::::::::: Magnetism is a relativistic effect. If you are using magnetism, you are using relativity. If you deny relativity, then what is magnetism? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:48, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::::::::: And what is morality?  Look, there's no denying that relativists insist on applying their assumptions to anything and everything.  Magnetism doesn't need relativity, and relativity hasn't produced a single thing that is productive.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This discussion has degenerated in Andy arguing points that are not in the article. I suggest fixing these errors:&lt;br /&gt;
:Unlike most of physics, the theories of relativity consist of complex mathematical equations relying on several hypotheses. - WRONG.&lt;br /&gt;
:These equations assume that it is forever impossible to attain a velocity faster than the speed of light, a hypothesis that can never be fully tested. - No, the equation show increased inertia as the speed of light is approached, something that has been experimentally verified for a century.&lt;br /&gt;
:By relying on assumptions about nature rather than observations, ... - No, SR relies essentially on electromagnetic observations.&lt;br /&gt;
:Relativity rejects Newton's action at a distance, which is basic to Newtonian gravity and quantum mechanics. - No, only to some interpretations of QM.&lt;br /&gt;
:The mathematics of relativity assume no exceptions, yet in the time period immediately following the origin of the universe the relativity equations could not possibly have been valid. - Nonsense. What is the source for this silly statement?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Relativity has been met with much resistance in the scientific world. - No reputable physicist in the last century has failed to accept relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
:To date, a Nobel Prize has never been awarded for relativity. - Prize were given indirectly for relativity in 1902, 1921, 1933, 1993. Plus the QFT prizes already listed: 1965,1967,1968,1972,1979,1980,1982,1984,1988,1990,1995,1999,2004,2008&lt;br /&gt;
:Louis Essen, the man credited with determining the speed of light, wrote many fiery papers against it such as The Special Theory of Relativity: A Critical Analysis.[5] - He is a kook.&lt;br /&gt;
:Relativity also gravely conflicts with quantum mechanics, and although theories like string theory and quantum field theory have attempted to unify relativity and quantum mechanics, neither has been entirely successful or proven. - No, there is no known conflict. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:56, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: That's quite a rant, ranging from calling someone a &amp;quot;kook&amp;quot; to insisting that everyone accepts something.  See how your claims contradict each other?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: The bottom line is this:  stop wasting taxpayer money on this stuff.  If you believe it so much, then donate your own money.  But the grand sum of money donated by relativists to something they claim is so great is this:  $0.  Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I did not say anything about money donated by relativists, about morality. Do you want to address something that I did say? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:49, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Your objections are patently absurd.  Taking your first objection, of course relativity relies entirely on sweeping assumptions, such as claiming that ''v'' can never, ever be faster than ''c'' and that there is no difference in frames of reference anywhere in the universe.  No other area of physics relies so heavily on such far-fetched and unprovable assumptions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: That is like complaining that Newtonian physics assumes that energy is conserved. The statement about was observed by Michelson-Morley and others. If you want to call it an assumption, then it was also assumed by Newton in 1687 [[http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/newton1.shtml]]. Every other theory of science also has similar assumptions, if you want to call these assumptions. Relativity is no different. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:38, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: I looked at your reference and found nothing relevant to this discussion, and you quoted nothing.  In sum, relativity has yielded nothing productive, and neither is this discussion.  Every minute spent on discussing relativity is a wasted minute, and every dollar spent is a wasted dollar.  Relativity is based entirely on sweeping and implausible assumptions unlike any other theory of physics.  Suit yourself if you like relativity, but you're wasting your time and please don't waste any more taxpayer dollars on it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:01, 17 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: You complain that relativity is different from Newtonian physics, and then you fail to see the relevance of what Newton said about the principle of relativity. I give up. The CP relativity article is filled with errors. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 00:27, 17 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Some clarifications I hope will be helpful ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I signed up for a Conservapedia account after reading this article and talk page, and particularly the back-and-forth between Aschlafly and Rschlafly. I saw what appeared to me to be some points of confusion and miscommunication, and I thought I might be able to help clear them up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, on the GPS question, I ''think'' I see what Aschlafly is saying about clocks. I think he means that Newtonian dynamics predicts no change in time from one reference frame to another, but rather that the ''forces'' on an orbiting satellite may affect a ''clock'' on board that satellite, just like bumping a record player can cause it to skip.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is a very astute observation, particularly given the minuteness of the observed desynchronization. The trouble is, it can't possibly be correct under Newtonian dynamics. The equivalence principle — the most basic Galilean one — says that a freely falling reference frame is indistinguishable from a reference frame which is not accelerating. So there are no forces acting on a clock in an orbiting satellite. (This is an approximation, obviously; tidal forces are at work inside an orbiting satellite. But on that scale, tidal forces are far too minute to have any measurable effect, much less an effect on the scale that's been observed.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now, maybe there's some as-yet-unknown force acting on the particular type of clock in a GPS satellite, causing it to desynchronize from ground-based clocks. A magnetic force, maybe, since those clocks are solid-state. We can easily imagine such a force, and define it in a way that matches the observations, just like Newton imagined a &amp;quot;gravitational force&amp;quot; that caused objects to fall in the way he observed. But physicists are (I think understandably) reluctant to do that, since the predictions of general and special relativity combined match the observed effects to the limit of our ability to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's not accurate at all to say that the desynchronization of GPS clocks ''proves'' either theory of relativity. What is accurate is that the two theories of relativity ''predict'' that orbiting clocks will differ from ground-based clocks in certain ways (slightly faster by a factor X because they're at a higher altitude, slightly slower by a separate factor Y because they're in motion) and that the observed behavior exactly matches the sum of the two predictions, to the limit of our ability to measure. GPS clocks don't ''prove'' relativity, but they also don't contradict it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's also more than a bit misleading to say that &amp;quot;relativity has yielded nothing productive,&amp;quot; since we wouldn't have PET scans without it for one example. But I'm a theoretician, not an engineer, so I can't contribute too much on that front. I'm also unsure whether you'd consider something like astronomical redshift or gravitational lensing (allowing us to better observe the universe) to be &amp;quot;productive&amp;quot; or not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm generally confused by what you're referring to when you say &amp;quot;sweeping and implausible assumptions.&amp;quot; Maybe you're confusing assumptions with predictions. In special and general relativity combined there are only three postulates — things that are assumed to be true by the theory: that the laws of physics are fundamentally the same no matter where you are or how you're moving, that the speed of light in a vacuum is the same to all observers, and that spacetime is everywhere (mathematically) continuous and differentiable.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The third postulate boils down, in layman's terms, to &amp;quot;We assume that mathematics works in the real world.&amp;quot; It's admittedly unfounded, but it's also a fundamental assumption of every other theory in physics as well. The second postulate started out as a bit of an assumption, but all experiments conducted to date have produced observations that are consistent with it. And the first postulate is another one of those fundamental assumptions of physics, that the basic laws of physics don't just change arbitrarily from place to place or from observer to observer. Only three assumptions, and none of them are either sweeping or implausible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding (okay, a big, huge, giant misunderstanding) about what &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;E=mc&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; means. That's okay, because most people who know what the letters in that equation stand for misunderstand what the equation means. That equation is ''nothing more than a unit conversion factor.'' You can convert from feet to inches by multiplying by a constant, twelve. If we define &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;k&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; to be 12, to keep from having to write the number down, then we could say &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;I=kf,&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; or inches equals feet times a constant. The mass-energy equation is just like that, a conversion factor for talking about energy (joules) in mass units (kilograms), or vice versa, just as we can talk about length in either feet or inches by applying a conversion factor. ''That's all it is.'' It doesn't ''say'' anything about the universe.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you want to take issue with the mass-energy relation, you should turn your attention to the stress-energy tensor &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;T&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;μν&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; in the Einstein field equations. That's where the prediction is made that mass and energy are related on a fundamental level. If you want to argue that point, argue it there, not in the unit conversion equation, which doesn't say what you seem to think it says.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finally (and I'm only stopping here because I don't want to be ridiculously verbose), it's not ''exactly'' correct to say that relativity &amp;quot;[claims] that v can never, ever be faster than c.&amp;quot; That's ''sort of'' true, if you squint, but it's not exactly right. What special relativity ''predicts'' — not ''claims'' — is that if you start with any object the speed of which is less than the speed of light — say, me, sitting here — and you ''accelerate'' that object, then its velocity as measured in any reference frame will never reach the speed of light, no matter how ''hard'' you accelerate it nor for how long. That's a more accurate way to describe the prediction. In fact, from a purely abstract mathematical standpoint, the equations of special relativity kind of say the ''opposite'' of what you said. Because it's an equally valid mathematical solution to say that objects can exist which move ''faster'' than the speed of light, but that when they are ''negatively'' accelerated (i.e., decelerated) their speed will never be so ''slow'' as the speed of light. These types of masses are called &amp;quot;tachyons.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, there are some serious mathematical problems with tachyons as a solution to the equations of special relativity. It's true that the math works, but it's also true to say that if I have three apples and you take away five I have negative-two apples. A mathematically correct statement, but one that doesn't have meaning in the real world, since you can't ''physically'' take away more than I have; &amp;quot;negative-two apples&amp;quot; doesn't have a real-world meaning, and tachyons might also not have a real-world meaning. Special relativity doesn't say they ''do'' exist, or that they ''must'' exist, merely that ''may'' exist without contradicting the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I do apologize for writing at such length, but reading the exchange between Aschlafly and Rschlafly made me deeply sad. You two argued with such vehemence over points of misunderstanding that are really very simple. The coincidence in your names, and the possibility that you might be kin, just made it all the more sad to me. Perhaps it makes me a busybody, but seeing two people in conflict over such a trivial set of misunderstandings made me want to help. I hope you take my comments in that spirit. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 13:00, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: More to the point, the article falsely states that relativity ''assumes'' you can't exceed c, and thus that relativity is based on untestable assumptions.  This is wrong.  The speed limit may be a consequence of the theory, but it is not an assumption of the theory.  The assumption is that light speed is the same in all reference frames, an assumption that can be and has been tested.  Of course it can never be fully tested, but neither can simple motion formulas be tested at all velocities.  Thus this criticism of relativity is based on false premises.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: As for the complexity of relativity, this isn't true for special relativity; that much can be derived with just a little bit of linear algebra.  And so what if Eddington claimed to be one of the few people who understood it?  Is he a source of infallible truth?  Are we supposed to fill this encyclopedia with facts, or with stuff people say?  &lt;br /&gt;
    &lt;br /&gt;
: This encyclopedia is supposed to be guided by conservative principles, including the telling of objective Truth even if the Truth is politically incorrect or offensive to sensitive ears.  In this article we are seeing the complete derailing of that fundamental principle.  The article barely even describes its own subject and devotes as much space to attacking it with numerous disparaging falsehoods; all because the fact of relativity is offensive to somebody's political sensibilities and/or personal hangups.  --[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] 13:41, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: There's much verbosity in the above two posts, and I'll gradually try to weed through it.  Let me start by saying the obvious:  the Lorenzian transformation at the heart of special relativity certainly DOES assume that &amp;quot;v&amp;quot; cannot exceed &amp;quot;c&amp;quot;.  The equation blows up if that assumption is violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Now that I've addressed one of your points, how about addressing mine:  relativity has absurd physical discontinuities, as explained in the entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It's sometimes tricky to say what exactly are the &amp;quot;assumptions&amp;quot; in a theory, but I thnik I agree with NgSmith on this point.  One can derive the Lorentz transformations by assuming that the speed of light is the same in all reference frames.  Einstein himself wrote a neat short piece &amp;quot;Simple Derivation of the Lorentz Transformation&amp;quot; that does this, even if it's not entirely rigorous.  It's available online and quite lives up to its name.  Others have done a more careful job of deriving the transformations.  You're right that the Lorentz transformations do show we can't go above c, but I think it's more accurate to view this as a consequence of the assumption (c constant in all frames) underlying Lorentz, rather than viewing the Lorentz transformations themselves as the assumption.  But I understand this is all up to debate and really comes down to how we want to formalize the theory. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 15:40, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Regarding the complexity of relativity, yes. Relativity is mathematically complex. While it's true that a lot of special relativity can be handled with basic algebra, the geometric interpretation depends on a good understanding of hyperbolic trigonometry, which is reasonably advanced math. General relativity, of course, is based on differential geometry and tensor calculus, which are highly advanced subjects in math. They are mathematically challenging theories, no question.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm not sure that's a good criticism, though. I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, of course, but the mere fact that there's a lot of math doesn't seem to be a strong leg to stand on. Math, after all, can be learned by anyone with patience.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::(Just like posts with &amp;quot;much verbosity&amp;quot; can be read and understood by anyone with patience, but that's getting off the subject.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::On the topic of assumptions, I'm not sure what else to say that I didn't say above. Special relativity does not ''assume'' that ''v'' cannot equal or exceed ''c.'' It ''assumes'' that the measured speed of light in a vacuum is the same in all reference frames. It then goes on to ''predict'' that under acceleration ''v'' cannot reach ''c.'' I agree, that alone would be a very difficult prediction to test. Fortunately, special relativity also ''predicts'' that proper time in a moving reference frame runs slower than proper time at rest, in proportion to ''v,'' and that prediction is ''not'' difficult to test. We accelerate particles with known half-lives to high fractions of ''c'' and then observe how long it takes them to decay. After enough such tests, the relationship between proper time in the moving frame and proper time at rest can be measured with a high degree of statistical precision. (This is known as the Rossi-Hall experiment, and was first done in 1940.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::As for the other point about &amp;quot;absurd physical discontinuities&amp;quot; and the example given in the article — and believe me when I tell you I'm trying to say this as respectfully as I can — I'm afraid your math is simply flawed. The example given in the article is that if you take a massive particle, accelerate it to the limit c, ''and then also'' reduce its rest mass to the limit zero, you get a different momentum from that of a photon. At the risk of sounding pedantic, of course you do. Rest mass is not a variable in the equations of special relativity; it's not mathematically meaningful to take its value at a limit, because it's a constant. You could just as easily take the value of the gravitational constant ''G'' at the limit zero, but you wouldn't get physically meaningful results, because ''G'' does not vary. Saying that the equations break when you break the equations is, it seems to me, pretty tautological.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:18, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The Lorentz transformation at the heart of special relativity is ''not'' a starting assumption; it is a conclusion that is ''derived'' from the starting assumptions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The article criticizes relativity for using the untestable speed limit as an ''assumption,'' which would be unwarranted.  Rather, relativity is based on a different assumption, that the speed of light is frame-invariant.  That assumption is perfectly justified; it is simply a statement of what experimental data was already telling us.    Indeed, relativity was borne out of an attempt to ''explain'' that experimental data.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: As for &amp;quot;absurd physical discontinuities,&amp;quot; the supposed discontinuity listed in the article is the same for ''both'' relativity and Newtonian physics:  the limit of mv as m goes to 0 and v goes to c is just 0, while the momentum of light is nonzero.  But so what?  A photon is not the ''limit'' of a shrinking mass, so this limit isn't supposed to equal the momentum of a photon.  This is not a &amp;quot;discontinuity&amp;quot; in the laws of physics, simply a misleading mathematical argument. --[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Comments on Newtonian Mechanics ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are two aspects of Newtonian mechanics that are, I believe, misstated in this article.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One:  several times the article claims that Newtonian mechanics predicts deflection of light by massive objects.  &lt;br /&gt;
   &lt;br /&gt;
Newtonian physics did predict gravitational acceleration of light, ''back when light was thought to have mass, 200 years ago.''  But this &amp;quot;corpuscular&amp;quot; theory of light was abandoned long ago due to its false predictions, versus the growing evidence of light as a massless phenomenon.  With massless light Newtonian mechanics does not predict any gravitational deflection at all.&lt;br /&gt;
     &lt;br /&gt;
It is misleading to represent that old theory, long since discredited, as &amp;quot;Newtonian mechanics,&amp;quot; or to represent it as a present-day alternative to relativity.  Newtonian mechanics does not model light as corpuscles, and does not claim that light is accelerated by gravity.  &lt;br /&gt;
    &lt;br /&gt;
Two:  the article makes fudge-factor statements like, &amp;quot;it is debatable how much deflection Newtonian mechanics should predict.&amp;quot; No, it is not debatable at all:  both Newtonian mechanics and relativity have well-defined, concrete laws that you can find in any physics textbook.  There is no mystery or lingering uncertainty about what they say, and we know precisely what these laws predict about the path of a mass passing another mass.&lt;br /&gt;
    &lt;br /&gt;
It seems like the article is defending an incorrect prediction by arguing that the predicted value is still up for debate.  But this is wrong; we know what the predicted value was, and should honestly accept that it does not match observation.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks for taking the time to find two specific areas for improvement here. This article was first on my list of those to improve — i.e., repair — when I signed up, but I've been working my way up to it because it's just so daunting. You've put the spotlight on a couple specific points, and that really helps.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm in the middle of expanding [[general theory of relativity]] and won't finish it until tomorrow. Would you be interested in collaborating with me on this article? I think moving much of the detail of the special and general theories to their respective pages will help clear out some of the junk on this page. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:43, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I thought that there were people who predicted light deflection under Newtonian mechanics. Is that not true? Do you have any source for saying that people did not expect light deflection under Newtonian mechanics? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Absolutely.  Johann Soldner, 1803, for one.  I'm going to put that into the GR page.  But probably not quite yet, there's a ''huge'' rewrite going on.  I'm sure there were people who thought that the deflection under Newton should be zero, but they were just not thinking clearly.  Any statement saying the expected deflection was zero should be taken out; not true.  BTW, I think the detailed treatment of issues like this belongs in the GR page, and the R page should just link to it.  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 12:01, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The sequence of events basically goes like this:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*Light is like little cannonballs! (Pretty much everybody from the 11th c. forward.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*Gravity is a constant force! (In India and Arabia, 9th c. or so, in Europe, Galileo, early 17th c.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*Gravity varies with the square of the distance! (Newton, late 17th c.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*There are stars so heavy that light cannonballs from them are dragged back down! (Laplace et al., 18th c.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*Guys? Light's not cannonballs, it's vibration. So no on your gravity nonsense. (Various, late 17th c. through mid 19th c.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*Okay, you guys are both right. It's cannonballs that vibrate. Kind of. (Einstein, early 20th c.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::*Oh, and gravity does so pull on it. So nyeh. (Einstein, early 20th c. but slightly later.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Basically the question of how light and gravity interact has been bounced back and forth like a ping-pong ball for the past thousand years. Only in the past century has a consistent model of light and gravitation emerged. Some discussion of this exists already [[black hole|here]]. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 12:20, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720436</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720436"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T16:30:02Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: intro to left-side section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that general relativity is to special relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of elativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity, like [[quantum mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, general relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General relativity and quantum mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  Hence this article can't possibly give a comprehensive explation of general relativity at the expert level.  But we will attempt to give a rough outline, for lay people, of the general relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Modern science does not say that Newtonian (classical) gravity is wrong.  It is obviously very very nearly correct.  In the weak field approximation, such as one finds in our solar system, the differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity are miniscule.  It takes very sensitive tests to show the difference.  The history of those tests is a fascinating subject, and will be covered near the end of this article.  But in all tests conducted so far, where there are discrepancies between the predictions of general relativity and Newtonian gravity (or other competing theories for that matter), experimental results have shown general relativity to be a better description.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Outside of the solar system, one can find stronger gravitational fields, and other phenomena, such as quasars and neutron stars, that permit even more definitive tests.  General relativity appears to pass those tests as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not to say, by any means, that general relativity is the ultimate, perfect theory.  It has never been unified with modern formulations of quantum mechanics, and it is therefore known to be incorrect at extremely small scales.  Just as Newtonian gravity is very nearly correct, and completely correct for its time, general relativity is believed to be very nearly correct, but not completely so.  Contemporary speculation on the next step involves extremely esoteric notions such as string theory, gravitons, and &amp;quot;quantum loop gravity&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the [[equivalence principle]] and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates special relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We will recall that the Einstein field equations can be written as a single tensor equation:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The right side of the equation consists of some constants and the ''stress-energy tensor,'' described in significant detail in the [[#The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor|previous section]]. The right side of the equation is the &amp;quot;matter&amp;quot; side. All matter and energy in a region of space is described by the right side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation, then, is the &amp;quot;space&amp;quot; side. Matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move. So the left side of the Einstein field equation must necessarily describe the curvature of spacetime in the presence of matter and energy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Some assumptions about the universe====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The metric tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The local Minkowski metric====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Geodesics====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Parallel transport and intrinsic curvature====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Riemann and Ricci tensors and the curvature scalar====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Einstein tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The cosmological constant====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720434</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720434"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T16:22:41Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Outline of left side section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that general relativity is to special relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of elativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity, like [[quantum mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, general relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General relativity and quantum mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  Hence this article can't possibly give a comprehensive explation of general relativity at the expert level.  But we will attempt to give a rough outline, for lay people, of the general relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Modern science does not say that Newtonian (classical) gravity is wrong.  It is obviously very very nearly correct.  In the weak field approximation, such as one finds in our solar system, the differences between general relativity and Newtonian gravity are miniscule.  It takes very sensitive tests to show the difference.  The history of those tests is a fascinating subject, and will be covered near the end of this article.  But in all tests conducted so far, where there are discrepancies between the predictions of general relativity and Newtonian gravity (or other competing theories for that matter), experimental results have shown general relativity to be a better description.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Outside of the solar system, one can find stronger gravitational fields, and other phenomena, such as quasars and neutron stars, that permit even more definitive tests.  General relativity appears to pass those tests as well.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not to say, by any means, that general relativity is the ultimate, perfect theory.  It has never been unified with modern formulations of quantum mechanics, and it is therefore known to be incorrect at extremely small scales.  Just as Newtonian gravity is very nearly correct, and completely correct for its time, general relativity is believed to be very nearly correct, but not completely so.  Contemporary speculation on the next step involves extremely esoteric notions such as string theory, gravitons, and &amp;quot;quantum loop gravity&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the [[equivalence principle]] and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates special relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Some assumptions about the universe====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The metric tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The local Minkowski metric====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Geodesics====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Parallel transport and intrinsic curvature====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Riemann and Ricci tensors and the curvature scalar====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The Einstein tensor====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====The cosmological constant====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720415</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720415"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T15:05:26Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm always on the lookout for math articles that would actually be useful to write, so let me know if there's anything that could help give background for this article -- I can write about geodesics or curvature or whatever else comes in here (these both have pages already, but they're rather silly). --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 19:51, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, thank you so much for offering. I spent some time this afternoon thinking about the next section; it's obviously more math-intensive than the first. The subjects I'm going to have to at least ''touch on'' in order to write it are obviously curvature as a concept, parallel transport as a way to quantify curvature and the metric tensor as an extension of the Pythagorean theorem. I don't ''want'' to get into tensor contraction (the Riemann-&amp;gt;Ricci thing) unless I have to to explain that the Einstein tensor only represents ''part'' of the curvature of spacetime, and the other part is where gravitational radiation is expected to appear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Any of that sound like ripe picking for math articles? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Sure, I'll work on [[curvature]] (pretty sure I can improve what's on there now!).  I'm thinking I'll start off talking about curvature of hypersurfaces in R^3 and the idea of parallel transport (illustrated on the round 2-sphere, probably), then define the Riemann curvature tensor (roughly -- we'll see about actually defining tensors) via holonomy. My thinking is that it probably then makes most sense to define sectional curvatures next and then say a bit about scalar and Ricci curvature.  This all comes with the disclaimer that my expository abilities aren't really up to par, but I'll try to at least get the groundwork in place. I probably won't really start until Monday, but I'll see if I can't get a start tomorrow. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 20:23, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: HA! Yeah, I'd say we can do better than that for [[curvature]]. ;-) If it were me writing it (and I'm glad it's not; thank you) from the perspective of a physicist, the point I'd emphasize is that it is ''not'' possible to put a consistent set of Cartesian coordinates onto a curved surface. If the surface is curved, then it cannot be flattened by a coordinate transform, period. So you ''have'' to deal with the curvature. That's the point I emphasize when I do &amp;quot;differential geometry for dummies.&amp;quot; But of course, your article won't be for budding physicists, it'll be for budding mathematicians or anybody who's interested. So I'll support whatever choice you make. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) My take on this, and what I'm thinking of doing for my work on this article (feel free to steer me in a different direction if you disagree) is:&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat coordinate systems.  (''We'' know this as Christoffel symbols = 0, but that's beyond our scope for the article.)  When dealing with spacetime, if you are in a flat coordinate system, you don't feel any &amp;quot;fictitious forces&amp;quot; (accelerations).  Your system is intertial.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved coordinate systems.  (Nonzero Christoffel symbols, geodesics are hairy.)  When dealing with spacetime, you feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat manifolds (Riemann=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved manifolds (Riemann !=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A flat manifold may have flat or curved coordinate systems.  In physics, we could be in a rotating or accelerating frame of reference.  But we can always find a flat coordinate system.  That is, the curvature of the coordinate system can be &amp;quot;transformed away&amp;quot; (for example, by stepping off the amusement park ride.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A curved manifold has '''NO''' flat coordinate systems.  At least not globally.  You can't step outside.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that gravity is really just a fictitious force (equivalence principle), and it arises because the spacetime manifold itself is curved.  It can't be globally transformed away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, I come at this from a physicist's perspective (though my major was in math.)  It sounds as though Mark is planning the mathematicians' approach for the curvature article.  The two articles will make interesting, and excellent, reading.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 21:32, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:These suggestions sounds good to me -- I don't think the two approaches are mutually exclusive, either.  I can start off talking about &amp;quot;flat coordinate systems&amp;quot; and maybe even throw in something about map projections (the Mercator kind, I mean) and the theorema egregium (this is supposed to be written for [[Majoring in Mathematics]] anyway, though JacobB who suggested it seems to have disappeared).  This can all be integrated with what I'll say about surfaces in R^3.  I'm a bit wary of saying much about Christoffel symbols since then we'd have to say a bit about connections, which I'd rather avoid -- I think geodesics are a more intuitive thing, and require a lot less other stuff to define if we're willing to wave our hands a bit (but if they're needed for the relativity article I can certainly define).  Then I can start babbling about parallel transport and then actually define the curvature tensor.  It's probably better if one of you write the physics-y stuff about fictitious forces here, but I can take a shot at it.  --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 21:42, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Yay! New intro!==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Patrick, ''love'' the new intro section! Got a question though, stylistically. I'm really unaccustomed to seeing theories (like general relativity or quantum mechanics, not proper-named ones) capitalized. With, of course, the anomalous exception of the Standard Model, but I think we write it that way 'cause that's how it's pronounced. Do we want to lowercase theories as the rule, or uppercase them?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I support all the suggestions y'all have floated here; it all sounds good to me. As I wrote the section today on calculating the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust, I kept asking myself, &amp;quot;If I were a freshman and somebody was telling me about this, what would I want them to ''omit?&amp;quot;'' I'm not saying you guys should stick to that guideline too, just sharing what mine was for the edification of all. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:52, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:OK, I'm convinced.  While I was writing that, I kept thinking &amp;quot;Why am I capitalizing this all over the place?  Because that's how it's done in other places.  But it's kind of dumb.&amp;quot;  So the policy ought to be: special rel and general rel are lower case, but article titles are upper case.  I think.  Is that the CP policy?  Title case?  Initial case?  I'll look around.  And I'll fix it.  Give me a few minutes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As far as &amp;quot;CP can't explain&amp;quot;, I meant this in the sense of &amp;quot;It's out of the scope of CP to cover this at the full postgrad level.&amp;quot;  I think an encyclopedia ''could'', in principle, give a full treatment, but I doubt that even Britannica does so.  Could someone come up with a way of saying &amp;quot;it's out of the scope/charter of CP&amp;quot; without appearing to have CP diss itself? [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 22:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm really not sure what house style is here; I looked around for a guide briefly but didn't stumble across one. The title of ''this'' article is sentence-case, but that's just one data point. I'm really fine either way, I just like consistency.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yeah, I knew exactly what you meant with the &amp;quot;CP can't&amp;quot; part. I just thought it ''could'' be misinterpreted, y'know? I had no problem with the sentiment, just the possible interpretation of it. If we made it more verbose and said something like &amp;quot;Conservapedia is not a textbook,&amp;quot; you know, along those lines, I think that could work. But at the same time, a single ''textbook'' can't explain ''all'' of general relativity. (Though I bet Misner, Thorne and Wheeler would slap my mouth for saying that. Or worse, they'd just hit me with their enormous, enormous book.) --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Intro and related articles suggestions==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As I reread the intro over my morning coffee, a couple thoughts spring to mind. I'd like to hear what you guys think.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*One of the light-bulb moments for me, as an undergrad, was realizing the qualitative difference between metric and field theories. A field theory says that a field exists in space, and that objects within that field will take on some property as a consequence of being in that field. For gravity, it's a vector field and objects in it will accelerate. A metric theory says that spacetime ''itself'' takes on certain properties, and objects always behave the same ways; their behavior only looks different because we can't directly observe the properties of the spacetime around them. I'm explaining this poorly (see above, re: coffee), but it was a real &amp;quot;oh I get it now&amp;quot; moment for me as an undergrad. Maybe this distinction deserves some attention?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Which brings me to my second point: What do you guys think of having one article each for vector field theory, metric theory, quantum field theory and gauge theory? I'm not talking about in-depth articles like this one; just simple, qualitative definitions. A vector field theory says there's an unobservable field there, and things in it will take on some potential energy from it. A metric theory says that spacetime is not uniform (curvature, torsion, etc) and that differences in apparent motion are caused by this observable distortion. A quantum field theory says fields work through the exchange of force particles, like little footballs being thrown around. A gauge theory is … actually pretty hard to explain simply. Anyway, I'm thinking in terms of basic physics concepts right now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Speaking of which: Lagrangian mechanics. We do have [[Lagrangian]]; it's just a stub, but I think we should do a qualitative introduction to the subject. We should make the point that the classical, Newtonian mechanics taught in high school is basically never used because it's not practical, but that the Lagrangian reformulation is the foundation of all of modern mechanics. (Yes, I know, Hamiltonians in quantum mechanics, but quantum mechanics makes my head hurt. I'm a macro-scale girl.) The principle of least action basically says, roughly speaking, that ''nature is lazy,'' and will only do what is absolutely required to get a particle from state A to state B, and that's a basic premise of physics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyway, just some thoughts. I'd like a student who reads one of the physics articles here to come away with a basic understanding of what the subject of the article ''means,'' and I think it'd be cool if we could present the information in such a way that their understanding of the subtleties of the subject depends linearly on how far into the article they read.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720287</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720287"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T06:09:31Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GR's predictions are off by more than the margin of error, as we discussed in detail above; it and special relativity have absurd discontinuities; there are logical flaws, as in relativistic mass; it conflicts with QM; and it predicts gravitons that have never been found despite wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on it.  Relativity pulls people away from reading the Bible and relativity is pushed big-time by liberals.  It chills progress by intimidating people against criticizing it.  Other than that, the theory is pretty good!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Wow, Mr. Schlafly must really like this conversation, he actually made a joke. ;) jk [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 00:15, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks very much for taking the time to reply; I understand better now. Of course, some of that is unmitigated garbage, and we'll have plenty of chances to deal with it when I fix your [[theory of relativity]] article next week, so I'll skip some points for now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*''You'' discussed the fact that the predictions are outside the margin of error; ''I'' pointed out to you repeatedly that you were mistaken. I even offered to show you a plot. So come on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*To be frank, relativity doesn't ''conflict'' with quantum mechanics; the two theories don't overlap in any domains we can presently observe. But that's the problem. They don't overlap, so we don't know how we're going to understand systems where both gravity and quantum mechanics have non-negligible effects. It's entirely possible that every such region of spacetime is sequestered behind an event horizon; that's jokingly called the &amp;quot;convenient cosmic censorship hypothesis&amp;quot; by one of my colleagues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity doesn't predict gravitons at all. General relativity doesn't say anything about particles; the Standard Model predicts the existence of particles (like the Higgs). Gravitons are part of the various attempts to reformulate general relativity as a vector gauge theory, none of which have gotten there yet. And, uh, since none of the gauge theories have gotten there yet, Andy, ''not one dollar'' has been spent looking for gravitons. Because we don't know where to look. But we ''do'' know that if they could be detected by existing particle accelerators, they would've been. So if and when physicists decide to look for them, it's going to have to start with building an accelerator the size of our galaxy&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;WARNING: exaggeration for humorous effect, do not take literally.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and you'll have your chance to lobby the appropriations committee then.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Yes, studying relativity does take people away from time they could spend in religious activities. So does reading this site. Just give me a chance to copy-and-paste my contributions out before you shut it down to remove the temptation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, like I said, we'll have plenty of time to have these arguments when I start work on [[theory of relativity]]. All I ask is that you ''engage in constructive collaboration'' with me and whomever else chooses to help out, rather than pouncing on the &amp;quot;undo&amp;quot; button like you did when I rewrote [[black hole]]. We've both demonstrated that we're reasonable adults, I think; we can work together. Deal? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I've been quietly following this conversation today, but Kate beat me to the &amp;quot;Submit&amp;quot; button!  Well, I'll just point out that scientists can and frequently do &amp;quot;intimidat[e] people against criticizing&amp;quot; pretty much any theory, because they think it's right and they don't want to waste time.  It's quite likely close-mindedness, but it exists, and you can't take that as disproof of the theory.  I don't think someone who rejected Mendel or Maxwell would get pretty far today, either.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(Yes, I know Mendel has been amended with epigenetic inheritance, but I think you get my picture)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;.  It's just a bothersome red herring.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don't know anything about the Mercury data, but the most recent data I've seen here says general relativity might work; it's at the border of the range of error, and it's too precise for any of us to extrapolate.  General relativity could be spot on.  Or, a new theory being needed - if you're trying to construct a [[theory of everything]], a new theory definitely is needed to deal with [[quantum mechanics]]!  But, general relativity does predict a lot of things better than Newton.  Newton didn't explain everything, nor does general relativity - but I think you can find better stuff to attack it with than an extrapolation of Mercury orbital data. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:37, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Ugh, I really should be sleeping, but this is just such an engaging conversation I can't seem to break away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::If you make a measurement to test a theory and the measurement doesn't match the prediction, there are three possibilities. Either the measurement is wrong (&amp;quot;That's not Mercury, that's Saturn!&amp;quot;) or the theory is wrong (&amp;quot;Turns out gravity ''isn't'' really caused by leprechauns!&amp;quot;) or both are fundamentally right but you failed to take something into account (&amp;quot;We really shouldn't have assumed the sun is a sphere.&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The thing about the Mercury anomaly is that the observed and predicted numbers are ''insanely'' close together. So close as to be declared equal within the margin of error. So either general relativity is ''absolutely'' right and we accounted for ''everything'' — no physicist believes this, by the way — or general relativity is at least ''incredibly close'' to being right, so close that the factors we failed to account for are negligible at the scale of the Mercury anomaly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the thing is, Mercury is really thin sauce, as gravity goes. The fields are weak, and the prediction we're testing doesn't say anything terribly interesting about the theory. If you want to get a real feel for how general relativity holds up as a ''physical'' theory, and not just a mathematical one, you really need to look at the Gravity Probe B data. (Conflict of interest alert: I worked on that project.) That experiment didn't measure gravitation indirectly by observing the motion of a particle; it measured it ''directly'' by parallel transporting a vector in a closed loop around a region of curvature. We ''empirically'' measured the curvature of spacetime around a gravitating object (the Earth) and found it to be non-zero. Spacetime is ''not'' flat, massive bodies ''do'' curve spacetime, and the fundamental ''idea'' of general relativity reflects nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::General relativity doesn't just say that a falling body moves like such-n-such. It tells us ''why.'' And to see it dismissed out of hand because Andy doesn't care for the size of the error bars on the results of a radar study? That, I confess, rubs me the wrong way. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:51, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::Great point about experimental error.  Before I ''really do'' sign off for the night, Kate, I'd like to give you an article suggestion:  [[Gravity_Probe_B]].  I'm enthusiastically looking forward to hearing how it was done! --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 01:00, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Oh, I'm not the girl to write that one. It'd be 200 pages long and full of equations and whole paragraphs of me going &amp;quot;You guys this is so ''awesome!&amp;quot;'' --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 01:09, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720285</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720285"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T05:51:23Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GR's predictions are off by more than the margin of error, as we discussed in detail above; it and special relativity have absurd discontinuities; there are logical flaws, as in relativistic mass; it conflicts with QM; and it predicts gravitons that have never been found despite wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on it.  Relativity pulls people away from reading the Bible and relativity is pushed big-time by liberals.  It chills progress by intimidating people against criticizing it.  Other than that, the theory is pretty good!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Wow, Mr. Schlafly must really like this conversation, he actually made a joke. ;) jk [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 00:15, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks very much for taking the time to reply; I understand better now. Of course, some of that is unmitigated garbage, and we'll have plenty of chances to deal with it when I fix your [[theory of relativity]] article next week, so I'll skip some points for now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*''You'' discussed the fact that the predictions are outside the margin of error; ''I'' pointed out to you repeatedly that you were mistaken. I even offered to show you a plot. So come on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*To be frank, relativity doesn't ''conflict'' with quantum mechanics; the two theories don't overlap in any domains we can presently observe. But that's the problem. They don't overlap, so we don't know how we're going to understand systems where both gravity and quantum mechanics have non-negligible effects. It's entirely possible that every such region of spacetime is sequestered behind an event horizon; that's jokingly called the &amp;quot;convenient cosmic censorship hypothesis&amp;quot; by one of my colleagues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity doesn't predict gravitons at all. General relativity doesn't say anything about particles; the Standard Model predicts the existence of particles (like the Higgs). Gravitons are part of the various attempts to reformulate general relativity as a vector gauge theory, none of which have gotten there yet. And, uh, since none of the gauge theories have gotten there yet, Andy, ''not one dollar'' has been spent looking for gravitons. Because we don't know where to look. But we ''do'' know that if they could be detected by existing particle accelerators, they would've been. So if and when physicists decide to look for them, it's going to have to start with building an accelerator the size of our galaxy&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;WARNING: exaggeration for humorous effect, do not take literally.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and you'll have your chance to lobby the appropriations committee then.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Yes, studying relativity does take people away from time they could spend in religious activities. So does reading this site. Just give me a chance to copy-and-paste my contributions out before you shut it down to remove the temptation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, like I said, we'll have plenty of time to have these arguments when I start work on [[theory of relativity]]. All I ask is that you ''engage in constructive collaboration'' with me and whomever else chooses to help out, rather than pouncing on the &amp;quot;undo&amp;quot; button like you did when I rewrote [[black hole]]. We've both demonstrated that we're reasonable adults, I think; we can work together. Deal? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I've been quietly following this conversation today, but Kate beat me to the &amp;quot;Submit&amp;quot; button!  Well, I'll just point out that scientists can and frequently do &amp;quot;intimidat[e] people against criticizing&amp;quot; pretty much any theory, because they think it's right and they don't want to waste time.  It's quite likely close-mindedness, but it exists, and you can't take that as disproof of the theory.  I don't think someone who rejected Mendel or Maxwell would get pretty far today, either.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(Yes, I know Mendel has been amended with epigenetic inheritance, but I think you get my picture)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;.  It's just a bothersome red herring.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I don't know anything about the Mercury data, but the most recent data I've seen here says general relativity might work; it's at the border of the range of error, and it's too precise for any of us to extrapolate.  General relativity could be spot on.  Or, a new theory being needed - if you're trying to construct a [[theory of everything]], a new theory definitely is needed to deal with [[quantum mechanics]]!  But, general relativity does predict a lot of things better than Newton.  Newton didn't explain everything, nor does general relativity - but I think you can find better stuff to attack it with than an extrapolation of Mercury orbital data. --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:37, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Ugh, I really should be sleeping, but this is just such an engaging conversation I can't seem to break away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::If you make a measurement to test a theory and the measurement doesn't match the prediction, there are three possibilities. Either the measurement is wrong (&amp;quot;That's not Mercury, that's Saturn!&amp;quot;) or the theory is wrong (&amp;quot;Turns out gravity ''isn't'' really caused by leprechauns!&amp;quot;) or both are fundamentally right but you failed to take something into account (&amp;quot;We really shouldn't have assumed the sun is a sphere.&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::The thing about the Mercury anomaly is that the observed and predicted numbers are ''insanely'' close together. So close as to be declared equal within the margin of error. So either general relativity is ''absolutely'' right and we accounted for ''everything'' — no physicist believes this, by the way — or general relativity is at least ''incredibly close'' to being right, so close that the factors we failed to account for are negligible at the scale of the Mercury anomaly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the thing is, Mercury is really thin sauce, as gravity goes. The fields are weak, and the prediction we're testing doesn't say anything terribly interesting about the theory. If you want to get a real feel for how general relativity holds up as a ''physical'' theory, and not just a mathematical one, you really need to look at the Gravity Probe B data. (Conflict of interest alert: I worked on that project.) That experiment didn't measure gravitation indirectly by observing the motion of a particle; it measured it ''directly'' by parallel transporting a vector in a closed loop around a region of curvature. We ''empirically'' measured the curvature of spacetime around a gravitating object (the Earth) and found it to be non-zero. Spacetime is ''not'' flat, massive bodies ''do'' curve spacetime, and the fundamental ''idea'' of general relativity reflects nature.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::General relativity doesn't just say that a falling body moves like such-n-such. It tells us ''why.'' And to see it dismissed out of hand because Andy doesn't care for the size of the error bars on the results of a radar study? That, I confess, rubs me the wrong way. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:51, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720282</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720282"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T05:22:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GR's predictions are off by more than the margin of error, as we discussed in detail above; it and special relativity have absurd discontinuities; there are logical flaws, as in relativistic mass; it conflicts with QM; and it predicts gravitons that have never been found despite wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on it.  Relativity pulls people away from reading the Bible and relativity is pushed big-time by liberals.  It chills progress by intimidating people against criticizing it.  Other than that, the theory is pretty good!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:05, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Wow, Mr. Schlafly must really like this conversation, he actually made a joke. ;) jk [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 00:15, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks very much for taking the time to reply; I understand better now. Of course, some of that is unmitigated garbage, and we'll have plenty of chances to deal with it when I fix your [[theory of relativity]] article next week, so I'll skip some points for now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*''You'' discussed the fact that the predictions are outside the margin of error; ''I'' pointed out to you repeatedly that you were mistaken. I even offered to show you a plot. So come on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*To be frank, relativity doesn't ''conflict'' with quantum mechanics; the two theories don't overlap in any domains we can presently observe. But that's the problem. They don't overlap, so we don't know how we're going to understand systems where both gravity and quantum mechanics have non-negligible effects. It's entirely possible that every such region of spacetime is sequestered behind an event horizon; that's jokingly called the &amp;quot;convenient cosmic censorship hypothesis&amp;quot; by one of my colleagues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity doesn't predict gravitons at all. General relativity doesn't say anything about particles; the Standard Model predicts the existence of particles (like the Higgs). Gravitons are part of the various attempts to reformulate general relativity as a vector gauge theory, none of which have gotten there yet. And, uh, since none of the gauge theories have gotten there yet, Andy, ''not one dollar'' has been spent looking for gravitons. Because we don't know where to look. But we ''do'' know that if they could be detected by existing particle accelerators, they would've been. So if and when physicists decide to look for them, it's going to have to start with building an accelerator the size of our galaxy&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;WARNING: exaggeration for humorous effect, do not take literally.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, and you'll have your chance to lobby the appropriations committee then.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Yes, studying relativity does take people away from time they could spend in religious activities. So does reading this site. Just give me a chance to copy-and-paste my contributions out before you shut it down to remove the temptation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, like I said, we'll have plenty of time to have these arguments when I start work on [[theory of relativity]]. All I ask is that you ''engage in constructive collaboration'' with me and whomever else chooses to help out, rather than pouncing on the &amp;quot;undo&amp;quot; button like you did when I rewrote [[black hole]]. We've both demonstrated that we're reasonable adults, I think; we can work together. Deal? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:22, 15 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720273</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720273"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T04:44:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: I think we just had a group hug&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.  The bottom line is clear:  no physics major, no physics grad student, and no physics teacher should dare criticize relativity, no matter what the data say.  The political grip on this issue is intense.  In fact, to be honest, I would advise against your criticizing it in any way.  It could harm your (or any other teacher's or physicist's) career.  There are examples of people who were denied tenure simply because they criticized evolution, and the politics here is just as strong.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I look forward to learning from your entry on the theory of relativity.  The math is fascinating regardless of its manifestation in reality.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:33, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent) &amp;quot;Kate, you didn't address the substance of my comment about the evidence, but don't worry about it.&amp;quot; What was there to address? You made an arithmetic error. Do you want me to send you the Mathematica scatterplot I made just to triple-check that I was interpreting the data correctly? It's pretty. The error bars are blue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, I wish I could get you to come to my department for a week. Just one week, any week. Our students, grad students, associates, profs, chair, heck, even the ''janitor'' criticizes relativity every day. I could get you a meeting with one of our theoretical cosmologist; he's been pulling his ''hair'' out for years trying to make some progress on the vacuum energy problem. For a while there he was coming into my office a couple times a week and saying … well, unprintable things about partial differential equations. Even we theoretical physicists think general relativity is a mathematical mess.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But we respect it anyway. Because it ''works,'' at least as far as anybody's been able to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can I ask you a question? What's your beef with relativity? I mean, I know you question the data, but … why? Are you just being iconoclastic? I don't mean that in a dismissive way; I totally understand and respect the impulse to say &amp;quot;Everybody agrees that this is true, so I'm going to question it!&amp;quot; I'd really just like to understand your point of view on this, whatever it may be. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720271</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720271"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T04:30:06Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Yay! New intro! */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm always on the lookout for math articles that would actually be useful to write, so let me know if there's anything that could help give background for this article -- I can write about geodesics or curvature or whatever else comes in here (these both have pages already, but they're rather silly). --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 19:51, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, thank you so much for offering. I spent some time this afternoon thinking about the next section; it's obviously more math-intensive than the first. The subjects I'm going to have to at least ''touch on'' in order to write it are obviously curvature as a concept, parallel transport as a way to quantify curvature and the metric tensor as an extension of the Pythagorean theorem. I don't ''want'' to get into tensor contraction (the Riemann-&amp;gt;Ricci thing) unless I have to to explain that the Einstein tensor only represents ''part'' of the curvature of spacetime, and the other part is where gravitational radiation is expected to appear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Any of that sound like ripe picking for math articles? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Sure, I'll work on [[curvature]] (pretty sure I can improve what's on there now!).  I'm thinking I'll start off talking about curvature of hypersurfaces in R^3 and the idea of parallel transport (illustrated on the round 2-sphere, probably), then define the Riemann curvature tensor (roughly -- we'll see about actually defining tensors) via holonomy. My thinking is that it probably then makes most sense to define sectional curvatures next and then say a bit about scalar and Ricci curvature.  This all comes with the disclaimer that my expository abilities aren't really up to par, but I'll try to at least get the groundwork in place. I probably won't really start until Monday, but I'll see if I can't get a start tomorrow. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 20:23, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: HA! Yeah, I'd say we can do better than that for [[curvature]]. ;-) If it were me writing it (and I'm glad it's not; thank you) from the perspective of a physicist, the point I'd emphasize is that it is ''not'' possible to put a consistent set of Cartesian coordinates onto a curved surface. If the surface is curved, then it cannot be flattened by a coordinate transform, period. So you ''have'' to deal with the curvature. That's the point I emphasize when I do &amp;quot;differential geometry for dummies.&amp;quot; But of course, your article won't be for budding physicists, it'll be for budding mathematicians or anybody who's interested. So I'll support whatever choice you make. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) My take on this, and what I'm thinking of doing for my work on this article (feel free to steer me in a different direction if you disagree) is:&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat coordinate systems.  (''We'' know this as Christoffel symbols = 0, but that's beyond our scope for the article.)  When dealing with spacetime, if you are in a flat coordinate system, you don't feel any &amp;quot;fictitious forces&amp;quot; (accelerations).  Your system is intertial.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved coordinate systems.  (Nonzero Christoffel symbols, geodesics are hairy.)  When dealing with spacetime, you feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat manifolds (Riemann=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved manifolds (Riemann !=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A flat manifold may have flat or curved coordinate systems.  In physics, we could be in a rotating or accelerating frame of reference.  But we can always find a flat coordinate system.  That is, the curvature of the coordinate system can be &amp;quot;transformed away&amp;quot; (for example, by stepping off the amusement park ride.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A curved manifold has '''NO''' flat coordinate systems.  At least not globally.  You can't step outside.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that gravity is really just a fictitious force (equivalence principle), and it arises because the spacetime manifold itself is curved.  It can't be globally transformed away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, I come at this from a physicist's perspective (though my major was in math.)  It sounds as though Mark is planning the mathematicians' approach for the curvature article.  The two articles will make interesting, and excellent, reading.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 21:32, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:These suggestions sounds good to me -- I don't think the two approaches are mutually exclusive, either.  I can start off talking about &amp;quot;flat coordinate systems&amp;quot; and maybe even throw in something about map projections (the Mercator kind, I mean) and the theorema egregium (this is supposed to be written for [[Majoring in Mathematics]] anyway, though JacobB who suggested it seems to have disappeared).  This can all be integrated with what I'll say about surfaces in R^3.  I'm a bit wary of saying much about Christoffel symbols since then we'd have to say a bit about connections, which I'd rather avoid -- I think geodesics are a more intuitive thing, and require a lot less other stuff to define if we're willing to wave our hands a bit (but if they're needed for the relativity article I can certainly define).  Then I can start babbling about parallel transport and then actually define the curvature tensor.  It's probably better if one of you write the physics-y stuff about fictitious forces here, but I can take a shot at it.  --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 21:42, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Yay! New intro!==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Patrick, ''love'' the new intro section! Got a question though, stylistically. I'm really unaccustomed to seeing theories (like general relativity or quantum mechanics, not proper-named ones) capitalized. With, of course, the anomalous exception of the Standard Model, but I think we write it that way 'cause that's how it's pronounced. Do we want to lowercase theories as the rule, or uppercase them?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I support all the suggestions y'all have floated here; it all sounds good to me. As I wrote the section today on calculating the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust, I kept asking myself, &amp;quot;If I were a freshman and somebody was telling me about this, what would I want them to ''omit?&amp;quot;'' I'm not saying you guys should stick to that guideline too, just sharing what mine was for the edification of all. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:52, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:OK, I'm convinced.  While I was writing that, I kept thinking &amp;quot;Why am I capitalizing this all over the place?  Because that's how it's done in other places.  But it's kind of dumb.&amp;quot;  So the policy ought to be: special rel and general rel are lower case, but article titles are upper case.  I think.  Is that the CP policy?  Title case?  Initial case?  I'll look around.  And I'll fix it.  Give me a few minutes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As far as &amp;quot;CP can't explain&amp;quot;, I meant this in the sense of &amp;quot;It's out of the scope of CP to cover this at the full postgrad level.&amp;quot;  I think an encyclopedia ''could'', in principle, give a full treatment, but I doubt that even Britannica does so.  Could someone come up with a way of saying &amp;quot;it's out of the scope/charter of CP&amp;quot; without appearing to have CP diss itself? [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 22:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm really not sure what house style is here; I looked around for a guide briefly but didn't stumble across one. The title of ''this'' article is sentence-case, but that's just one data point. I'm really fine either way, I just like consistency.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yeah, I knew exactly what you meant with the &amp;quot;CP can't&amp;quot; part. I just thought it ''could'' be misinterpreted, y'know? I had no problem with the sentiment, just the possible interpretation of it. If we made it more verbose and said something like &amp;quot;Conservapedia is not a textbook,&amp;quot; you know, along those lines, I think that could work. But at the same time, a single ''textbook'' can't explain ''all'' of general relativity. (Though I bet Misner, Thorne and Wheeler would slap my mouth for saying that. Or worse, they'd just hit me with their enormous, enormous book.) --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720270</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720270"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T04:24:53Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I have an open mind about this but, quite honestly, the relativists protest too much.  Why do you care so much about defending relativity?  Not to pick on you, however, because many trained in math and physics likewise defend relativity like they are defending their own reputation.  It's bizarre.  Regardless of the reason, protesting too much is not scientific.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Answering the substance of your post, your most recent data is from 1992 (17 years ago, with the data probably older than that), and its margin of error confirms what I said: it's approaching 0.1.  Combine that 0.1 (or 0.14 if you like) with the most recent data and it's clear that GR no longer fits the data.  Of course, no one is going to dare publish a paper claiming GR is disproved by the data, and even if they tried, no journal would accept it.  So the trail goes cold at this point, just as the data diverge from the GR predictions and the margin of error declines to where it can't save GR.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Why do you care so much about defending relativity?&amp;quot; 'Cause teaching physics is something I do for a living. 'Cause I think it's really neat. 'Cause seeing somebody totally misunderstand it, and then go on to draw incorrect conclusions based on his misunderstanding of it, and finally to pass those incorrect conclusions on to impressionable kids who trust him … well, that just breaks my heart. You can call it protesting too much if you want, Andy. But I wish you could understand that it's really just me trying to help.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wouldn't have fought you on this at all if you'd said something like &amp;quot;A dozen eggs contains fifteen eggs, plus or minus two.&amp;quot; That's just ''obviously'' wrong, and nobody who reads it would fall for it. But you're hiding your false conclusion behind a wall of data that you know most people won't bother looking up for themselves, and that's just dishonest. That's unworthy of anybody who'd call himself a teacher, and what's more I think you know that in your heart. You seem like a conscientious guy; what does your conscience say to you about this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, it's your essay, you can obviously write what you want. But let me just give you a heads up: Next week, when I put your [[theory of relativity]] page on the table for major surgery? I don't think you're gonna like it. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 23:24, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720230</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720230"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T02:52:57Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: capitalization question&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm always on the lookout for math articles that would actually be useful to write, so let me know if there's anything that could help give background for this article -- I can write about geodesics or curvature or whatever else comes in here (these both have pages already, but they're rather silly). --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 19:51, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, thank you so much for offering. I spent some time this afternoon thinking about the next section; it's obviously more math-intensive than the first. The subjects I'm going to have to at least ''touch on'' in order to write it are obviously curvature as a concept, parallel transport as a way to quantify curvature and the metric tensor as an extension of the Pythagorean theorem. I don't ''want'' to get into tensor contraction (the Riemann-&amp;gt;Ricci thing) unless I have to to explain that the Einstein tensor only represents ''part'' of the curvature of spacetime, and the other part is where gravitational radiation is expected to appear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Any of that sound like ripe picking for math articles? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Sure, I'll work on [[curvature]] (pretty sure I can improve what's on there now!).  I'm thinking I'll start off talking about curvature of hypersurfaces in R^3 and the idea of parallel transport (illustrated on the round 2-sphere, probably), then define the Riemann curvature tensor (roughly -- we'll see about actually defining tensors) via holonomy. My thinking is that it probably then makes most sense to define sectional curvatures next and then say a bit about scalar and Ricci curvature.  This all comes with the disclaimer that my expository abilities aren't really up to par, but I'll try to at least get the groundwork in place. I probably won't really start until Monday, but I'll see if I can't get a start tomorrow. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 20:23, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: HA! Yeah, I'd say we can do better than that for [[curvature]]. ;-) If it were me writing it (and I'm glad it's not; thank you) from the perspective of a physicist, the point I'd emphasize is that it is ''not'' possible to put a consistent set of Cartesian coordinates onto a curved surface. If the surface is curved, then it cannot be flattened by a coordinate transform, period. So you ''have'' to deal with the curvature. That's the point I emphasize when I do &amp;quot;differential geometry for dummies.&amp;quot; But of course, your article won't be for budding physicists, it'll be for budding mathematicians or anybody who's interested. So I'll support whatever choice you make. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) My take on this, and what I'm thinking of doing for my work on this article (feel free to steer me in a different direction if you disagree) is:&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat coordinate systems.  (''We'' know this as Christoffel symbols = 0, but that's beyond our scope for the article.)  When dealing with spacetime, if you are in a flat coordinate system, you don't feel any &amp;quot;fictitious forces&amp;quot; (accelerations).  Your system is intertial.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved coordinate systems.  (Nonzero Christoffel symbols, geodesics are hairy.)  When dealing with spacetime, you feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
*There are flat manifolds (Riemann=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*There are curved manifolds (Riemann !=0.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A flat manifold may have flat or curved coordinate systems.  In physics, we could be in a rotating or accelerating frame of reference.  But we can always find a flat coordinate system.  That is, the curvature of the coordinate system can be &amp;quot;transformed away&amp;quot; (for example, by stepping off the amusement park ride.)&lt;br /&gt;
*A curved manifold has '''NO''' flat coordinate systems.  At least not globally.  You can't step outside.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that gravity is really just a fictitious force (equivalence principle), and it arises because the spacetime manifold itself is curved.  It can't be globally transformed away.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Obviously, I come at this from a physicist's perspective (though my major was in math.)  It sounds as though Mark is planning the mathematicians' approach for the curvature article.  The two articles will make interesting, and excellent, reading.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 21:32, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:These suggestions sounds good to me -- I don't think the two approaches are mutually exclusive, either.  I can start off talking about &amp;quot;flat coordinate systems&amp;quot; and maybe even throw in something about map projections (the Mercator kind, I mean) and the theorema egregium (this is supposed to be written for [[Majoring in Mathematics]] anyway, though JacobB who suggested it seems to have disappeared).  This can all be integrated with what I'll say about surfaces in R^3.  I'm a bit wary of saying much about Christoffel symbols since then we'd have to say a bit about connections, which I'd rather avoid -- I think geodesics are a more intuitive thing, and require a lot less other stuff to define if we're willing to wave our hands a bit (but if they're needed for the relativity article I can certainly define).  Then I can start babbling about parallel transport and then actually define the curvature tensor.  It's probably better if one of you write the physics-y stuff about fictitious forces here, but I can take a shot at it.  --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 21:42, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Yay! New intro!==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Patrick, ''love'' the new intro section! Got a question though, stylistically. I'm really unaccustomed to seeing theories (like general relativity or quantum mechanics, not proper-named ones) capitalized. With, of course, the anomalous exception of the Standard Model, but I think we write it that way 'cause that's how it's pronounced. Do we want to lowercase theories as the rule, or uppercase them?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I support all the suggestions y'all have floated here; it all sounds good to me. As I wrote the section today on calculating the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust, I kept asking myself, &amp;quot;If I were a freshman and somebody was telling me about this, what would I want them to ''omit?&amp;quot;'' I'm not saying you guys should stick to that guideline too, just sharing what mine was for the edification of all. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:52, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720227</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720227"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T02:47:00Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: No need to single anybody out, I don't think.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that General Relativity is to Special Relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General Relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;General Relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Theory of Relativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity, like [[Quantum Mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, General Relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  No encyclopedia article can really explain either of them fully.  But, in the article below, we will attempt to give a rough outline of the General Relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720226</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720226"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T02:46:13Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: typo fixin'&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''General Theory of Relativity''' is an extension of [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]], dealing with curved coordinate systems, accelerating frames of reference, curvilinear motion, and curvature of spacetime itself.  It could be said that General Relativity is to Special Relativity as vector calculus is to vector algebra.  General Relativity is best known for its formulation of gravity as a [[fictitious force]] arising from the curvature of spacetime.  In fact, &amp;quot;General Relativity&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;Einstein's formulation of gravity&amp;quot; are nearly synonymous in many people's minds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Theory of Relativity was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity, like [[Quantum Mechanics]] (the other of the two theories comprising &amp;quot;modern physics&amp;quot;) both have reputations for being notoriously complicated and difficult to understand.  In fact, in the early decades of the 20&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;th&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; century, General Relativity had a sort of cult status in this regard.  General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are both advanced college-level and postgraduate level topics.  Conservapedia can't really explain either of them fully.  But, in the article below, we will attempt to give a rough outline of the General Relativistic formulation of gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Coordinate Systems and Spacetime Diagrams==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
... In progress ...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720221</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720221"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T02:39:34Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: formatting error, whoops&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post''-''Newton'' formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720220</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720220"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T02:38:44Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: And about that Will paper&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oh, and just incidentally? Will didn't leave Mercury out of his paper; he just talked about it in really jargony physics-paper language.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Three decades of experiments, ranging from the standard light-deﬂection and perihelion-shift tests to lunar laser ranging, planetary and satellite tracking, and geophysical and astronomical observations, have placed bounds on the PPN parameters consistent with general relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;PPN&amp;quot; is the ''parameterized post-Newton&amp;quot; formalism, a rewriting of the law of universal gravitation to include coefficients derived from general relativity. The Einstein field equations are nightmarish to solve, so PPN was created as a middle-ground approximation between the (good but not good enough in some contexts) Newton approximation and the agonizing pain of having to actually ''solve'' the Einstein field equations every time you want to calculate the delta-vee required during a solar slingshot maneuver for a planetary probe. What Will said in that paper is the PPN approximation has been tested ''against general relativity'' and supported by 30 years of experiments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is really getting into the tall grass, and I know how you hate wasting time. Maybe we can bring this conversation to a conclusion? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:38, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720210</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720210"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T02:17:05Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Mercury anomaly data&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, as I said, I don't care either way, but I am going to tell the truth.  GR fit the observed data in 1916 (indeed, GR was developed to fit it), but now (due to more sophisticated measurements) the GR prediction is wrong ''by more than the margin of error''.  None of your comments above address the margin of error, which must be the scientific focus.  A difference between theory and observation is not &amp;quot;ridiculously small&amp;quot; if it is more than the margin of error, as in this case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:47, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Perhaps this is what Mr. Schlafly is referring to. The article states that 5599.7 arc-seconds is the observed value. KSorenson is quoting a value of 5,600 (±0.04). 5600-.04=5599.96. From just those values then yes the relativity value is higher by .26 arc-seconds even factoring in the error. The only thing I ask is what is the error range for the observed value? [[User:Ameda|ameda]] 21:08, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Presumably the error range for the observed value is no more than .1.  Again, note that Professor Will conspicuously omits this famous claim of evidence for GR from his recent comprehensive summary of the evidence for GR, as cited in this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent again because I'm lazy with bullets) We can do a heck of a lot better than &amp;quot;presumably,&amp;quot; Andy, and as a person who cares deeply about facts and logic, you darned well know that. I happen to have the Pijpers paper from 94 here; I dug it out when I thought you might have been thinking of helioseismography. In it he cites radar ranging studies from 1976 to 1992. Here's the data, ''with margins of error.'' Note that these numbers are for ''the anomaly,'' and not the precession total, and remember that the figure from the Einstein equation is 42.98 ± 0.04, okay?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro 76)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson 87)&lt;br /&gt;
*42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson 91)&lt;br /&gt;
*43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson 92)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the Einstein prediction is within the margin of error of those four radar-ranging measurements of the Mercury anomaly. I'm sure there've been more recent studies, but I don't have them literally sitting in front of my face at the moment, so those are the ones I'm citing. Can I see your numbers that say the Einstein prediction is outside the margin? More recent data than what I have in my hand here maybe? (This Pijpers paper is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9804258v1 on ARXIV], by the way, if you want to check it out.)--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 21:17, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720202</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720202"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T01:46:39Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Idea for presenting this */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm always on the lookout for math articles that would actually be useful to write, so let me know if there's anything that could help give background for this article -- I can write about geodesics or curvature or whatever else comes in here (these both have pages already, but they're rather silly). --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 19:51, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, thank you so much for offering. I spent some time this afternoon thinking about the next section; it's obviously more math-intensive than the first. The subjects I'm going to have to at least ''touch on'' in order to write it are obviously curvature as a concept, parallel transport as a way to quantify curvature and the metric tensor as an extension of the Pythagorean theorem. I don't ''want'' to get into tensor contraction (the Riemann-&amp;gt;Ricci thing) unless I have to to explain that the Einstein tensor only represents ''part'' of the curvature of spacetime, and the other part is where gravitational radiation is expected to appear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Any of that sound like ripe picking for math articles? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Sure, I'll work on [[curvature]] (pretty sure I can improve what's on there now!).  I'm thinking I'll start off talking about curvature of hypersurfaces in R^3 and the idea of parallel transport (illustrated on the round 2-sphere, probably), then define the Riemann curvature tensor (roughly -- we'll see about actually defining tensors) via holonomy. My thinking is that it probably then makes most sense to define sectional curvatures next and then say a bit about scalar and Ricci curvature.  This all comes with the disclaimer that my expository abilities aren't really up to par, but I'll try to at least get the groundwork in place. I probably won't really start until Monday, but I'll see if I can't get a start tomorrow. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 20:23, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: HA! Yeah, I'd say we can do better than that for [[curvature]]. ;-) If it were me writing it (and I'm glad it's not; thank you) from the perspective of a physicist, the point I'd emphasize is that it is ''not'' possible to put a consistent set of Cartesian coordinates onto a curved surface. If the surface is curved, then it cannot be flattened by a coordinate transform, period. So you ''have'' to deal with the curvature. That's the point I emphasize when I do &amp;quot;differential geometry for dummies.&amp;quot; But of course, your article won't be for budding physicists, it'll be for budding mathematicians or anybody who's interested. So I'll support whatever choice you make. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720198</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720198"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T01:35:13Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Are you thinking of solar oblateness maybe?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Kate, I don't have an ax to grind about this.  General Relativity was developed to explain the Mercury precession, so the theory certainly should fit the data.  I expected that it would.  But the fit isn't there anymore, due to more precise measurements.  It's beyond the margin of error, and logically that's all that matters.  You're using rounding above that obscures what the margin of error is.  Professor Will does not even include this test in his recent summary of all the evidence for GR, and we can now see why.  Those are the facts, and logic applied to the facts.  Anyone has free will to accept or deny it.  I accept the facts and logic as they require.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You make an interesting point about position, but I don't think the essay is incorrect because it says nothing about momentum.  Observation can pin down the position, which is relevant to establishing order.  But without observation there is disorder.  That is the basic point.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Right, but there's an error of fact buried in there. It's a totally innocent one, I'm sure; I'm not accusing you of axe-grinding. It's just that the precession of the perihelion of Mercury ''has not changed'' since 1916 when the theory was published. It's not that we measured it with telescopes before 1916 and got a rough estimate, and now we measure it with better telescopes and have a much more precise figure. We measured it before 1916 and got a very accurate figure because measuring the motion of Mercury just isn't that hard, and the measurements we make today with better telescopes say only that yup, the older measurements were pretty much spot on.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::What we ''have'' done since then is to much more precisely measure the oblateness of the sun. There was a big controversy about that back in the … hmm … 80s I think it was? Goldberg and Dicke claimed that the sun was much &amp;quot;fatter&amp;quot; than previously thought, which ''would have'' made the predictions from general relativity different from the observed precession. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? For a while there was a lot of disagreement about what shape the sun actually is, but that's been pretty much put to bed with both more accurate ground-based observations in the 90s and helioseismography.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Anyway, saying that the prediction matched the observation in 1916 and doesn't today is simply flat-out false. If your argument depends on it, then you're hurting your argument with this point. If it doesn't, then what's the harm in fixing it?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Thanks for clarifying your point about quantum mechanics. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720193</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720193"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T01:06:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Idea for presenting this */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm always on the lookout for math articles that would actually be useful to write, so let me know if there's anything that could help give background for this article -- I can write about geodesics or curvature or whatever else comes in here (these both have pages already, but they're rather silly). --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 19:51, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Oh, thank you so much for offering. I spent some time this afternoon thinking about the next section; it's obviously more math-intensive than the first. The subjects I'm going to have to at least ''touch on'' in order to write it are obviously curvature as a concept, parallel transport as a way to quantify curvature and the metric tensor as an extension of the Pythagorean theorem. I don't ''want'' to get into tensor contraction (the Riemann-&amp;gt;Ricci thing) unless I have to to explain that the Einstein tensor only represents ''part'' of the curvature of spacetime, and the other part is where gravitational radiation is expected to appear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Any of that sound like ripe picking for math articles? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720188</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720188"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T01:00:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: I'm afraid we're not there yet, sir.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Your point is an excellent one.  Thank you.  The 30% figure was wrong for the reasons you provide.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::But the underlying point in this entry remains correct:  due to advances in precision in measurement, the prediction of relativity no longer matches the data on the precession.  The discrepancy is much greater than the margin of error, which is all that matters from a logical perspective.  The entry has been updated accordingly, and I welcome further comments you may have.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Unindent) I'm not sure you're going to welcome these comments, sir. Because you're just flat-out, provably, unequivocally wrong on this one. The observed value of the precession of Mercury hasn't been changed in a hundred years, because it's a direct observation. We measured it with telescopes, and those were just fine at that scale a century ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm afraid your edit made the offending section paragraph ''even more misleading than it was.'' Predicted value of the precession (via Newton) in 1915: 5,557. Observed value in 1915? 5,600. Difference? 43. Predicted value from the Einstein equations? 5,600. Observed value today? Still 5,600. Difference? Ridiculously small. I ''know'' you're actively working on this essay, and I feel ''really'' bad about beating you up over this, but you wouldn't have the paragraph in there unless you thought it had value.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just so you know, I've got some feedback on your paragraph on quantum mechanics as well. For starters, the position and momentum of a particle is exactly as uncertain after an observation as it is before, because reducing uncertainty of the position increases uncertainty of the momentum and vice versa. They're intrinsically linked. Maybe that's not your point; measuring a particle does, I suppose, bring about a sort of philosophical order that was previously absent — we know where the particle is now — but at the cost of reducing our knowledge about another aspect of the particle's motion. But your essay isn't fleshed out enough for me to really see yet what you're getting at, so that might be irrelevant to your point. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 20:00, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720172</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720172"/>
		<updated>2009-11-15T00:11:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: The Mercury anomaly&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Kate, if I can call you that, I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not applying for any grants.  I'm not trying to get a PhD from liberal professors.  I'm not worried about what my colleagues might say.  Like the Bible, I'm just telling the truth, and trying to learn more of it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The physics journals all seem to require payment for access.  But type this into a Google search:  5599.7 Mercury.  You'll then see what the liberal physics professors won't tell you, as Google returns fragments from limited-access journals.  Then, please, pause for a moment and ask yourself:  why didn't they tell you this so you could decide for yourself, rather than being told what to think?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:40, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Oh, okay. I see where you made an honest mistake.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::There are two numbers at play here: there's the ''observed'' precession of Mercury's orbit, and then there's the ''anomaly.'' The anomaly is the amount by which the observed precession differs from the mathematically predicted precession. What you did was quote a figure for the ''anomaly'' using the figure for the ''observed'' precession. Hang on, lemme splain.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The precession of an orbit is the sum of several effects. Newton's approximation for gravity predicted three different effects: axial precession of 5,025 arc seconds per century, 530 additional arc seconds per century from the gravitational effects of the other planets, and a tiny amount, less than one arc second per century, due to the fact that the sun isn't a perfect sphere. (Those numbers are all rounded off; the precise figures are trivially googlable.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::If you add up the precession predicted by Newton's approximation, you get exactly 5,557.02 arc seconds per century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::But if you run the numbers using the Einstein equations instead of the Newton equations — using the same constants for things like the mass and shape of the sun — you get a precession of exactly 5,600±0.04 arc seconds per century. It's really weird that it would be a round number like that, but that's how the math works out.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::The observed precession of Mercury's orbit? It's 5,599.7 arc seconds per century. Which is where you got your number from. And that means the general relativity prediction was accurate to within (deep breath) one half of one one hundredth of one percent.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::That's like shooting an arrow from Los Angeles and hitting the bullseye in Melbourne.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Would you be a dear and remove the incorrect anomaly figure from your essay now? I know it's a work in progress and I hate nitpickers, but somebody could stumble across that and be misinformed.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:11, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720156</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720156"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T22:58:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: More Mercury matters, mainly&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm urging you to look beyond what you're taught.  I went through the same physics curriculum as others, and it is what isn't taught that matters.  Earnestly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay. Let's find a way of making that point without quoting an incorrect value for the Mercury anomaly then? Cause putting in a number that's not actually supported by observations just to make a philosophical point seems kind of … I dunno. Deceptive? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:58, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:SaraT&amp;diff=720155</id>
		<title>User talk:SaraT</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:SaraT&amp;diff=720155"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T22:56:41Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Action at a distance */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The 1300s did not occur after the [[King James Bible]], and hence my reversion.  You might try taking [[World History Final Exam]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:16, 3 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, sorry.  I didn't read the fine print &amp;quot;developed since the King James Version&amp;quot;.  That explains a bunch of conservative words that I found surprisingly absent, like &amp;quot;work&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;decency&amp;quot;.  I'll be more selective and careful in the future.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My KJV doesn't show a date in the dedication, which sort of surprised me.  But I knew it was during the reign of James I, in the early 1600's.  I didn't know, until just now, that it was 1611.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The Final Exam question you are referring to was 40, right?  Answer is B of course.  I'll look at the exam in more detail soon.  I've just finished taking some other exams.  [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:47, 3 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here are my answers to the World History Final Exam:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:1  c   11 b   21 b   31 d   41 d   51 c&lt;br /&gt;
:2  d   12 b   22 d   32 d   42 c   52 b&lt;br /&gt;
:3  a   13 a   23 b   33 b   43 b   53 a&lt;br /&gt;
:4  c   14 c   24 b   34 c   44 b   54 d&lt;br /&gt;
:5  d   15 e   25 b   35 d   45 e   55 b&lt;br /&gt;
:6  a   16 e   26 d   36 b   46 e   56 e&lt;br /&gt;
:7  b   17 d   27 b   37 a   47 d   57 d&lt;br /&gt;
:8  a   18 c   28 e   38 c   48 c   58 b&lt;br /&gt;
:9  c   19 b   29 c   39 e   49 b   59 c&lt;br /&gt;
:10 b   20 d   30 d   40 b   50 d   60 a&lt;br /&gt;
:EC d for boys, e for girls&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Minor nit on question 53:  It's Carta, not Charta.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
MAJOR nit on question 59:  Solving encrypted messages by checking letter frequencies is the stuff of puzzles in popular magazines and children's books.  The Enigma cipher was '''much''' more difficult than that.  The rotors advanced, completely changing the permutation, after every letter.  Solving the Enigma cipher required the concentrated effort of the best minds of the British mathematics community.  See &amp;quot;Alan Turing: The Enigma&amp;quot; by Andrew Hodges for a readable, but not ''too'' technical account, of the problem and the way it was attacked.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I don't know if I'll bother grading your exam, because you defiantly answered both the boys and girls extra credit question.  You're not both.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your &amp;quot;minor nit on question 53&amp;quot; is wrong.  See [http://www.magnacharta.org/]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your &amp;quot;major nit on question 59&amp;quot; is also wrong.  British mathematicians did not crack the Enigma; Polish mathematicians did, and part of the decrypting was based on letter frequency.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:04, 4 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::&amp;quot;Your &amp;quot;minor nit on question 53&amp;quot; is wrong.&amp;quot;  Actually SaraT is correct.  The Magna Carta is the Magna Carta, or Magna Carta Libertatum.  The translation of Carta is Charter, but any spelling of Carta as Charta is completely incorrect.  I'm afraid to say that the people running the site that you linked too need to educate themselves re:13th century Latin spelling.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::&amp;quot;Your &amp;quot;major nit on question 59&amp;quot; is also wrong.  British mathematicians did not crack the Enigma; Polish mathematicians did, and part of the decrypting was based on letter frequency.  Godspeed.&amp;quot;  Again incorrect.  Whilst the Polish did crack the pre-war Enigma code the German's changed the way that Enigma generated messages specifically to counter the way that the Polish had cracked the pre-war code.  It was the British who cracked the new Enigma code during the war.  Because of the way that encryption using the Enigma machine was changed, plus operational changes such as not allowing messages of more than 250 words, this meant the process that you refer to in the question, initialization vector which is the system that the Biuro Szyfrów used to crack the pre-war code, became almost useless in cracking the new Enigma code.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 17:23, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Action at a distance ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
SaraT and KSorenson (this is being sent to both):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm interested in working on the article about [[action at a distance]].  (Actually I'm busy working on many things about science and math, as a look at my [[Special:Contributions/PatrickD|contributions]] will show, but this particular issue has bubbled to the top of my agenda.)  I'm confused about the ways this term is used.  Since you both seem to be interested in the history of science, you might be able to shed some light on it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The suggested meanings I have come across are:&lt;br /&gt;
#Exertion of force on an object that isn't in direct contact.  This must be what it means in Newtonian gravity, right?&lt;br /&gt;
#Transmission of a force instantaneously, or, in any case, supraluminally.  This doesn't seem to have been an issue with Newton, because the finite speed of light, and the causality consequences of that, weren't known at the time.  Right?&lt;br /&gt;
#Consequences of &amp;quot;Quantum Entanglement&amp;quot;.  This seems to relate to supraluminal transmission of information, and is therefore related to #2.  Right?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So which is it?  Can either of you enlighten me?  Or fix the article?  (By the way, you both write very well.)  [[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 22:28, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've seen what KSorenson wrote, and her explanation of the locality and causality aspects are far superior to anything I could do.  But I would like to point out that, historically, it meant something different.  One thing that the old and new definitions have in common is an element of &amp;quot;spookiness&amp;quot;.  Of course, what was spooky in the 1600's is perfectly sensible now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term is considered rather quaint now; I think it should properly be used only in the old context.  As KS points out, in the modern world of field theories, &amp;quot;locality&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;non-locality&amp;quot; are better terms.  If something (like an electric charge) locally affects the field (electric field or Faraday tensor) here, and there are equations (Maxwell's equations) relating the behavior of the field here with the behavior there, and the field there causes a particle there to feel a force, that is not really &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot;.  It's perfectly acceptable.  In modern terms, it's a local field theory.  The field &amp;quot;mediated&amp;quot; the force.  The way the equations relate the field at one point to the field at another point (divergences and such) that carry the force from &amp;quot;here&amp;quot; to &amp;quot;there&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the carrying of force from one point to another wasn't so easy to accept in the 1600's.  It was considered spooky, just as Schrodinger's cat and quantum entanglement are considered spooky today.  In the 1600's, people generally believed that one object could only exert a force on another object if the two were in physical contact.  There was plenty of practical experience underlying this belief.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:But there were two effects that I can think of that violated this: There were magnets--natural lodestones; and their ability to point North had been known since antiquity.  And there was gravity.  The apple fell to the ground without anyone pushing it.  How did they reconcile this?  My guess is that they just didn't think as hard about such issues as perhaps they might have.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that Newton's discovery that gravity makes the planets move forced people to think about what they had been ignoring.  You can overlook an apple falling to the ground, but you can't overlook a force making Mars move.  Was it the fact that the force operated through a vacuum that made people uneasy?  Or was it the fact that the distances were so vast?  I suspect it was a little of each.  That which had been overlooked before could no longer be denied.  There was action at a distance.  Across hundreds of millions of miles of empty space.  This bothered people.  It even bothered Newton.  He wrote about not believing in action at a distance, even though he had just devised the world's first field theory.  (He was not the only person to have a hard time coming to grips with his own discoveries.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Action at a distance has also been used, classically, to refer to action traveling faster than the speed of light.  But this did not come up in Newton's time.  That there should be a finite speed of propagation wasn't an issue.  In fact, Newton proved that angular momentum would not be preserved unless gravity propagated instantaneously.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:How do we reconcile that with the fact that it is propagated at the finite speed of light?  Classical mechanics is completely consistent with special relativity under the assumption that the speed of light is infinite.  Newton was doing a relativistically correct proof, as long as c = infinity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later on, as the finiteness of the speed of light became known, the questions arose whether the effects of fields (electric, magnetic, and gravitational) could travel faster than the speed of light.  Such an effect might have been called &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot;, and would have been spooky.  But the issue was pretty much settled in the 19th and early 20th centuries.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The issue arose again in the mid 20th century, referring to the possibility that fields (this time the quantum field) might mediate actions faster than light.  The problem is often posited in terms of transmission of information faster than light, which would violate common assumptions about causality.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And that's where we stand now, though &amp;quot;non-locality&amp;quot; is a much better modern term.  I hope this helps.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 14:44, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I've heard, rarely but occasionally, the phrase &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; to refer to one particle acting on another particle that's outside its light cone. Have either of you heard that one? Maybe we should include that interpretation of the phrase as well? --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:56, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720152</id>
		<title>Talk:Essay:Quantifying Order</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Quantifying_Order&amp;diff=720152"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T22:48:26Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Can you please cite the &amp;quot;55 arc seconds per century&amp;quot; bit?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;quot;Subsequently, however, more accurate measurements with more sophisticated technology have determined this precession to be 55 arc-seconds per century, nearly 30% off the number provided by relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please provide a citation in the article for this. I'm shocked that I somehow missed the news. Thanks much. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:48, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720142</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720142"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T21:30:58Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: moved math-ahead template to where it belongs&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720140</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720140"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T21:30:24Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Idea for presenting this */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Oh, also I'm going to move your advanced-math-ahead warning sign down to the quantitative section and replace the some-math-ahead warning sign. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:30, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720139</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720139"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T21:29:29Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Idea for presenting this */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The templates are math-e, math-m, math-h, and math-a, for elementary, middle-school, high-school, and advanced.  But the detailed content suggests some overlap.  (By the way, I made them, based on earlier work by, I think, DanielB.)  If anything deserves a &amp;quot;math-a&amp;quot;, it's this!  Math-a was intended for discussion of things like topology, the axiom of choice, the Riemann hypothesis, etc.  That is, stuff really at the outer edges of CP's mission.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know a fair amount about this subject, and about presenting it in a palatable way.  I will look at the page over the weekend.  There are many other things on my plate, but this has just gone to the top of the list.  I'll deal with the Peano postulates later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kate:  I will send you the paper on tensor calculus that we discussed.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 20:31, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Idea for presenting this ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The General Relativity seems to be the place to be this weekend!!!!!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I've done some thinking about how we can explain, semi-adequately, what is going on, at an acceptable educational level.  We all know that adequate explanations for lay people just don't exist.  But we're making an effort.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here's an idea that I had: Put something in, probably in front of your sections on T_mu_nu and G_mu_nu, about fictitious forces, and how curved coordinate systems, and curved manifolds, lead to these forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, some kind of spacetime diagram, completely flat, with x going straight left to right, t going straight up, and some events labeled &amp;quot;me, now&amp;quot; at the origin, &amp;quot;me, 5 minutes from now&amp;quot; up the page, &amp;quot;My neighbor's house, now&amp;quot; to the right, and a diagonal line for my neighbor walking to my house and arriving in 5 minutes.  An explanation that these are &amp;quot;world lines&amp;quot;.  Mine goes straight up, and my neighbor's goes diagonally.  We show coordinate &amp;quot;graph paper&amp;quot; lines, all rectilinear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next, figure 2:  a diagram showing the frame of reference of a car traveling uniformly down the street.  The formerly vertical lines are now slanted.  My neighbor appears to be walking faster in my frame of reference, and he arrives at my house at x=-5 or whatever.  He is now behind me, because my car moved.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point out that a &amp;quot;flat coordinate system&amp;quot; is one in which the coordinate lines are straight.  That means they make boxes that are either parallelograms or rectangles.  They don't have to be rectangles.  The coordinate system of figure 2 is still flat.  Point out also, that both the stationary observer in front of my house (figure 1) and the observer in the car (figure 2) don't feel any fictitious forces.  They are in inertial frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now do figure 3.  This is a car that starts out at rest at t=0, and accelerates.  We show the formerly vertical coordinate lines as being curved.  (They're parabolas, I believe.)  This is a &amp;quot;curved coordinate system&amp;quot;, characterized by curved coordinate lines.  (You and I know that it's not that simple -- curved?  What does that mean?  It means they aren't geodesics.  We can't get into that.  It involves Christoffel symbols.  We just draw curved lines and leave it at that.)  We also point out that someone in the accelerating car ''feels a [fictitious] force'', even though he is &amp;quot;at rest&amp;quot; in his coordinate system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the fundamental principle:  ''If you are in a curved coordinate system, you will feel fictitious forces.''  A fictitious force is traditionally something that arises from some kind of acceleration, such as an accelerating vehicle, or a centrifugal force, or a Coriolis force.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we state the ''equivalence principle'' -- gravity perhaps can be explained as a fictitious force.  We can point out that this principle had sort of been known for a long time before Einstein.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved coordinate systems.  Put up a piece of polar graph paper.  This is a curved coordinate system.  But, no problem -- it's a flat piece of paper.  The ''manifold'' (we're using that term, right?) is flat; it just happens to have a curved coordinate system.  This is equivalent the the accelerating car.  By pressing down on the accelerator of the car, we intentionally put ourselves into a curved coordinate system, but the manifold itself is flat.  The observer standing on the sidewalk can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now let's look at curved ''manifolds''.  We say, in a hand-wavey sort of way, that there are &amp;quot;curved manifolds&amp;quot;, and that the surface of a sphere is an example of a curved 2-dimensional manifold.  And we state (we can't possibly prove it, or even rigorously define the terms, at this level of exposition) that ''curved manifolds have only curved coordinate systems''.  There is no flat coordinate system on the surface of the sphere.  Flat manifolds, like the spacetime diagrams of figures 1, 2, and 3, have both flat and curved coordinate systems.  People living in the curved coordinate systems will feel fictitious forces.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We make some hand-wavey statement that the curvature of a manifold arises from somethng called the &amp;quot;metric tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Riemann's tensor&amp;quot;, &amp;quot;Ricci's tensor&amp;quot;, and &amp;quot;Einstein's tensor&amp;quot;.  If we know the metric tensor, we can tell whether the manifold is curved.  If it is (that is, Einstein's tensor is nonzero), then the manifold is curved, all possible coordinate systems are curved, and there is no global coordinate system that is free of fictitious forces.  (Of course, we can make a coordinate system that is locally flat -- just jump down an elevator shaft.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then we say that the essence of General Relativity, and its explanation of gravity, is that gravity appears to be a fictitious force for which ''no flat coordinate system exists'', and hence it arises from the ''curvature of the manifold itself'', as given by Einstein's tensor.  Which is the left side of the equation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I really think this will be better than the exhibits of balls rolling around on curved surfaces that we see in science museums.  A lot of handwaving, but we just may be able to do this a bit better than most elementary treatments.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:PatrickD|PatrickD]] 15:37, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:By luck (whether good or bad is left as an exercise for the reader) that's pretty much the curriculum for the first six weeks of my intro to general relativity course. I mean beat for beat: we start out reviewing special relativity and transformations from orthonormal coordinates to oblique coordinates, which takes us into the hyperbolic trig interpretation, then we do curvilinear coordinates and the equivalence principle. I use the unit 2-sphere and tidal forces to introduce the concept of an obstruction, which gets us into the metric and parallel transport. That's usually when I say, &amp;quot;Okay, just assume everything I'm about to tell you is true and trust me,&amp;quot; and I do a couple hours of tensor algebra so we can talk Riemann.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm ''not'' a good candidate to boil all that down into something suitable for a precocious high-schooler. That's why I used the same story I told my niece when she asked me what I do for a living. Except we actually went out to the back yard trampoline with a tennis ball. (Her adorable and patient aunt played the part of the sun in our little model solar system.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm all for putting it in terms of geometry rather than balls and surfaces, if you think you can explain it in a way that gives a good intuitive grasp of the ideas. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 16:29, 14 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720128</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720128"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T21:19:36Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-a}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a time-dependent distribution of identical, massive, non-interacting, electrically neutral particles. In general relativity, such a distribution is called a ''dust.'' Let's break down what this means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;time-dependent&lt;br /&gt;
:The distribution of particles in our dust is not a constant; that is to say, the particles may be motion. The overall configuration you see when you look at the dust depends on the time at which you look at it, so the dust is said to be ''time-dependent.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;identical&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles that make up our dust are all exactly the same; they don't differ from each other in any way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;massive&lt;br /&gt;
:Each particle in our dust has some rest mass. Because the particles are all identical, their rest masses must also be identical. We'll call the rest mass of an individual particle &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;non-interacting&lt;br /&gt;
:The particles don't interact with each other in any way: they don't collide, and they don't attract or repel each other. This is, of course, an idealization; since the particles are said to have mass &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, they must ''at least'' interact with each other gravitationally, if not in other ways. But we're constructing our model in such a way that gravitational effects between the individual particles are so small as to be be negligible. Either the individual particles are very tiny, or the average distance between them is very large. This same assumption neatly cancels out any other possible interactions, as long as we assume that the particles are far enough apart.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
;electrically neutral&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to the obvious electrostatic effect of two charged particles either attracting or repelling each other — thus violating our &amp;quot;non-interacting&amp;quot; assumption — allowing the particles to be both charged and in motion would introduce electrodynamic effects that would have to be factored into the stress-energy tensor. We would ''greatly'' prefer to ignore these effects for the sake of simplicity, so by definition, the particles in our dust are all electrically neutral.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The easiest way to visualize an ideal dust is to imagine, well, dust. Dust particles sometimes catch the light of the sun and can be seen if you look closely enough. Each particle is moving in apparent ignorance of the rest, its velocity at any given moment dependent only on the motion of the air around it. If we take away the air, each particle of dust will continue moving in a straight line at a constant velocity, whatever its velocity happened to be at the time. This is a good visualization of an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We're now going to zoom out slightly from our model, such that we lose sight of the individual particles that make up our dust and can consider instead the dust as a whole. We can fully describe our dust at any ''event'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — where ''event'' is defined as a point in space at an instant in time — by measuring the density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and the 4-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. If we have those two pieces of information about the dust at every point within it at every moment in time, then there's literally nothing else to say about the dust: it's been fully described.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Let's start by figuring out the density of dust at a the event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, as measured from the perspective of an observer moving along with the flow of dust at &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. The density &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is calculated very simply:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\rho = m_0 n\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;m_0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the mass of each particle and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;n&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the number of particles in a cubical volume one unit of length on a side centered on &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. This quantity is called ''proper density,'' meaning the density of the dust ''as measured within the dust's own reference frame.'' In other words, if we could somehow imagine the dust to measure ''its own density,'' the proper density is the number it would get.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Clearly proper density is a function of position, since it varies from point to point within the dust; the dust might be more &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over here, less &amp;quot;crowded&amp;quot; over there. But it's also a function of time, because the configuration of the dust itself is time-dependent. If you measure the proper density at some point in space at one instant of time, then measure it at the same point in space at a different instant of time, you may get a different measurement. By convention, when dealing with a quantity that depends both on position in space and on time, physicists simply say that the quantity is a function of position, with the understanding that they're referring to a &amp;quot;position&amp;quot; in four-dimensional spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The other quantity we need is ''4-velocity.'' Four-velocity is an extension of three-dimensional velocity (or 3-velocity). In three dimensional space, 3-velocity is a vector with three components. Likewise, in four-dimensional spacetime, 4-velocity is a vector with four components.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Directly measuring 4-velocity is an inherently tricky business, since one of its components describes motion along a &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; that we cannot see with our eyes: motion through time. The math of [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]] lets us calculate the 4-velocity of a moving particle given only its 3-velocity &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; (with components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v^i&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;i=1, 2, 3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;) and the speed of light. The time component of 4-velocity is given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^0 = \gamma c\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and the space components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;u^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
u^i = \gamma v^i\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''boost,'' or Lorentz factor:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{\|v\|^2}{c^2}}}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\|v\|^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, in turn, is the square of the Euclidean magnitude of the 3-velocity vector &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;v&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\|v\|^2 = (v^1)^2+(v^2)^2+(v^3)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, if we know the 3-velocity of the dust at event &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;P&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, then we can calculate its 4-velocity. (For more details on the how and why of 4-velocity, refer to the article on [[special theory of relativity|special relativity]].)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just as proper density is a function of position in spacetime, 4-velocity also depends on position. The 4-velocity of our dust at a given point in space won't necessarily be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at another point in space. Likewise, the 4-velocity at a given point at a given time may not be the same as the 4-velocity of the dust at the same point at a different time. It helps to think of 4-velocity as the velocity of the dust ''through'' a point in both space and time.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Since the density and the 4-velocity fully describe our dust, we have everything we need to calculate the stress-energy tensor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T(x) = \rho (x) u(x)\otimes u(x)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
where the symbol &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\otimes&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; indicates a ''tensor product.'' The tensor product of two vectors is a tensor of rank two, so the stress-energy tensor must be a tensor of rank two. In an arbitrary coordinate frame &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust are given by:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{\mu\nu} = \rho u^{\mu} u^{\nu}\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From this equation, we can now calculate the contravariant components of the stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Time-time component======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We start with the contravariant time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \rho u^0 u^0 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c^2 \,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we rearrange the terms in this equation slightly, something important becomes apparent:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{00} = \gamma^2 (\rho c^2)\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a ''density'' quantity, in mass per unit volume. By the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle, we know that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = m c^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. So we can interpret this component of the stress-energy tensor, which is written here in terms of mass-energy, to be equivalent to an ''energy density.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Actually rewriting the equation for the time-time component in terms of energy density requires refining our proper density equation into a form that doesn't depend on counting particles in a unit volume. Such a refinement is beyond the scope of this discussion. In less abstract dust solutions, the mass density is usually either assumed to be constant over space (as in the [[Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker solution|FLRW solution]] that models a homogenous, isotropic expanding or contracting universe) or is assumed to depend only on the radius of the distribution (as in the [[LTB solution]] that models gravitational collapse). At this point, it is sufficient merely to understand that matter density and energy density, and matter flux and energy flux, are equivalent concepts under general relativity.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Off-diagonal components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal components of the tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; are not equal — are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \gamma^2 c \rho v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, recall that &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is a quantity of mass per unit volume. Multiplying a mass times a velocity gives ''momentum,'' so we can interpret &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho v^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; as the ''density of momentum'' along the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction, multiplied by constants &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;c&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. Momentum density is an extremely difficult quantity to visualize, but it's a quantity that comes up over and over in general relativity. If nothing else, one can take comfort in the fact that momentum density is mathematically equivalent to the product of mass density and velocity, both of which are much more intuitive quantities.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Note that the off-diagonal components of the tensor are equal to each other:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{10} = \rho u^1 u^0 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma c) = \rho \gamma^2 c v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{01} = \rho u^0 u^1 = \rho (\gamma c) (\gamma v^1) = \rho c \gamma^2 v^1\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In other words, in the case of an ideal dust, the stress-energy tensor is said to be ''symmetric.'' A rank two symmetric tensor is said to be symmetric if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{ab}=T^{ba}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======Diagonal space components======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor are calculated this way:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
T^{11} = \rho u^1 u^1 = \rho (\gamma v^1) (\gamma v^1) = \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2\,&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this case, we're multiplying a four-dimensional mass density, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\rho&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, by the square of a component of 4-velocity. By [[dimensional analysis]], we can see:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^4} \cdot \frac{\mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}^2}{\mbox{m}^4 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} = \frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recall that the [[force]] has units:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}}{\mbox{s}^2}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we divide the units of the diagonal space component by the units of force, we get:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
\frac{\mbox{kg}}{\mbox{m}^2 \cdot \mbox{s}^2} \cdot \frac{\mbox{s}^2}{\mbox{kg} \cdot \mbox{m}} = \frac{1}{\mbox{m}^3}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor come are expressed in terms of force per unit volume. Force per unit ''area'' are, of course, the traditional units of ''pressure'' in three-dimensional mechanics. So we can interpret the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor as the components of &amp;quot;4-pressure&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Not a standard term.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
======The big picture======&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We now know everything we know to assemble the entire stress-energy tensor, all sixteen components, and look at it as a whole.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The stress-energy tensor is practically never written out in matrix form this way, even in textbooks. This is purely for illustration.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c^2   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 c   &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 c   \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^1)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^1 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^1 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^2)^2 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^3 v^2 \\&lt;br /&gt;
\gamma^2 \rho c v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^1 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho v^2 v^3 &amp;amp; \gamma^2 \rho (v^3)^2&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The large-scale structure of the tensor now becomes apparent. This is the stress-energy tensor of an ideal dust. The tensor is composed entirely out of the proper density and the components of 4-velocity. When velocities are low, the coefficient &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\gamma^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, even though it's a squared value, remains extremely close to one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The time-time component includes a mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light, so it has to do with energy. The rest of the top row and left column all include the speed of light as a coefficient, as well as density and velocity; in the case of an ideal dust which is made up of non-interacting particles, the energy flux along any basis direction is the same as the momentum density along that direction. This is not the case in other, less simple models, but it's true here.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The diagonal space components of the tensor represent pressure. For example, the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component represents the pressure that would be exerted on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The off-diagonal space components represent shear stress. The &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T^{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component, for instance, represents the pressure that would be exerted in the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; direction on a plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The overall process for calculating the stress-energy tensor for any system is fairly similar to the example given here. It involves taking into account all the matter and energy in the system, describing how the system evolves over time, and breaking that evolution down into components which represent individual densities and fluxes along different directions relative to a chosen coordinate basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As can easily be imagined, the task of constructing a stress-energy tensor for a system of ''arbitrary'' complexity can be a very daunting one. Fortunately, gravity is an extremely weak interaction, as interactions go, so on the scales where gravity is interesting, much of the complexity of a system can be approximated. For instance, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that behaves ''exactly'' like the ideal dust described here; every massive particle interacts, in one way or another, with other massive particles. No matter what, a real system is going to be ''very'' much more complex than this approximation. Yet, the ideal dust solution remains a much-used approximation in theoretical physics specifically ''because'' gravity is such a weak interaction. On the scales where gravity is worth studying, many distributions of matter, including interstellar nebulae, clusters of galaxies, even the whole universe really do behave very much like an ideal dust.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720098</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720098"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T19:42:42Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: vacuum example&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The simplest possible stress-energy tensor is, of course, one in which all the values are zero.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }\ =\ 0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This tensor represents a region of space in which there is no matter, energy or fields, not just at a given instant, but over the entire period of time in which we're interested in the region. Nothing exists in this region, and nothing happens in this region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So one might assume that in a region where the stress-energy tensor is zero, the gravitational field must also necessarily be zero. There's nothing there to gravitate, so it follows naturally that there can be no gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In fact, it's not that simple. We'll discuss this in greater detail in the next section, but even a cursory qualitative examination can tell us there's more going on than that. Consider the gravitational field of an isolated body. A test particle placed somewhere near but outside of the body will move in a geodesic in spacetime, freely falling inward toward the central mass. A test particle with some constant linear velocity component perpendicular to the interval between the particle and the mass will move in a conic section. ''This is true even though the stress-energy tensor in that region is exactly zero.'' This much is obvious from our intuitive understanding of gravity: gravity affects things at a distance. But exactly ''how'' and ''why'' this happens, in the model of the Einstein field equations, is an interesting question which will be explored in [[#The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor|the next section]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720094</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=720094"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T19:41:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Added some outline elements that I'll fill in shortly&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 1: Stress-energy tensor for a vacuum====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Example 2: Stress-energy tensor for an ideal dust====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Density=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====4-velocity=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=====Assembling the stress-energy tensor=====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the precession of Mercury's perihelion, which was moving at a different speed than that predicted by a simple application of Newton's law of universal gravitation.  (Previous scientists had attempted to explain it by the gravitational pull of a hypothetical planet inside Mercury's orbit, which they called [[Vulcan]].  This could also be explained by altering the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, but that was disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in the acceptance of general relativity to have been when Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total [[solar eclipse]].  General relativity predicted that the light from the stars would be bent due to passing close to the sun.  (A smaller degree of bending could also be consistent with Newton's theory, if one hypothesized light to consist of particles.  However, that [[particle theory of light]] had gone out of favor previously.)  Eddington detected a bending of light, but his range of error overlapped both Einstein's and Newton's predictions.  Upon his return to England, Eddington declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  His experiment was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.  Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Relation to Special Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Special relativity]] is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719905</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719905"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T00:25:19Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Yeah, I'm struggling with the math. The math of general relativity is hellishly complex, to the point where only a small number of exact solutions have been found in nearly a century. But I think ''examining'' the mathematics, even if it's in a superficial way, could really help the motivated student understand what the theory ''means,'' and to understand what it does and doesn't predict. I'm not planning to dive into covariant and contravariant tensor transformations or the expansion of the Christoffel symbols, but I'm trying to provide a sort of nickel tour of the equations. To your right, we see the stress-energy tensor; it's like mass. To your left, we see the Ricci tensor; it's a contraction of one of the vector fields of the Riemann with its dual, leaving the fully traceless Weyl tensor to describe gravitational radiation and yeah, I think you see my point. It's challenging.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::But the math is so ''pretty.'' Really, it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and every piece has a really clear physical interpretation. ''This'' piece describes how the volume of a sphere in curved spacetime differs from the volume of a sphere in flat spacetime; it's a direct representation of the shape of spacetime in a gravitational field. ''This'' piece represents the plain, old, warm-and-friendly Pythagorean theorem; it's really no more complicated than that! ''This'' slot here is where you put the energy of the vacuum in order to model a vacuum-dominant expanding universe. The math is ''gorgeous,'' and I want to find a way to share that with kids without boring them or scaring them off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Anyway, the Mercury thing really deserves its own section under tests of general relativity, I think. It's such an important prediction from the points of view of astronomy, theoretical physics ''and'' the modern history of science. I'll turn my attention to it after I finish the quantitative section, unless somebody wants to dive into it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Thanks for the feedback, you guys! Enjoy your Friday night. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 19:25, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719903</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719903"/>
		<updated>2009-11-14T00:24:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Undo revision 719901 by NiggurTits (Talk)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The math is way out of my depth, but I tried clarifying the section about Eddington's experiment.  It now says what I think it said - if I'm way off-base, please correct me.  -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 19:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::Yep, everything in there seems okay.  Can't wait to read the rest of the article.--[[User:DanHutchin|DanHutchin]] 19:14, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719886</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719886"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T23:45:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Can I get a proofreader?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Higher math template?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Proofread?==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm going to leave this page half-done for tonight and pick it up tomorrow. Anybody available to give what's there right now a proofread? I'd love any and all feedback. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719885</id>
		<title>Talk:Theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719885"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T23:43:40Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* Comments on Newtonian Mechanics */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Mass section revision ==&lt;br /&gt;
Regarding my earlier revision of the &amp;quot;mass increase&amp;quot; section: I was careful not to change anything in that section without first asking permission. I explained on the talk page the reason for wanting to make the change, and more or less what I thought should be said. A user named &amp;quot;RSchafly&amp;quot; gave me the go-ahead to make the change, which I did. And I didn't do it in secret. I announced the change as soon as I made it, over a month ago.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now you've decided you don't like it, and instead of asking me to fix it, or even saying simply &amp;quot;thanks, but no thanks&amp;quot;, you dismiss the whole thing as &amp;quot;claptrap&amp;quot;. Excuse me, but that is incredibly rude.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 21:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:You're right.  I was rude, and I apologize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That said, you deleted my clearer explanation and obscured the fact that the nonsensical &amp;quot;relativistic mass&amp;quot; was taught and believed by physicists for more than a generation.  E=mc&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;, which is still repeated and taught in Pavlovian manner by relativists, is simply false as a general equality.  You also inserted non-scientific justification like &amp;quot;language&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;natural&amp;quot; that have no place in a matter of physical observation.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:43, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;Beautiful, but not robust&amp;quot; Quote ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The beginning of this article provides a quote from Steven Weinberg on quantum field theory saying that QFT is &amp;quot;beautiful, but not robust.&amp;quot; The way the quote is given here makes it sound like this comment was intended as a criticism of QFT. I looked up the source of the quote, and it appears (to me at least) that the quote was not meant as a criticism at all. I think what Weinberg was saying is that QFT has to satisfy a lot of strong properties, such as gauge invariance and renormalizeablility. It is in that sense that QFT is not robust. But the point I think Weinberg is making is that this gives us hope for finding a grand unified theory, since we don't have much wiggle room in the kinds of theories we can propose.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Given that, I propose the quote be removed, since its likely meaning is out of context with the way the quote is being used. --[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 12:00, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The quote speaks for itself, and your comment is unfortunately incoherent.  A lack of robustness in a theory is obviously a weakness in the theory, not in the requirements for the theory.  No, we're not going to censor the quote.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, clearly the quote does not speak for itself, since it comes at the end of a long lecture praising the progress that has been made in QFT. As far as lack of robustness being a weakness--it seems like this is the exact opposite point Weinberg is trying to make. He discusses, for example, how pleased he was when people discovered the need for theories to be renormalizeable. His point was that this was a hard condition for a theory to satisfy, and therefore imposing that condition greatly narrowed the search for the correct theory. I hope that clarifies the point I was trying to make. --[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 21:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Lemonpeel&amp;quot;, your statement is again incoherent.  You state, &amp;quot;clearly the quote does not speak for itself, '''since it comes at the end of a long lecture praising the progress that has been made in QFT'''.&amp;quot;  The same could be said about some of our close-minded liberal editors.  When one starts from zero, one can make infinite &amp;quot;progress&amp;quot; and still be virtually at zero.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:27, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Can't argue with that logic.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 21:54, 15 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Mass Increase Section ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the subsection on mass increase, it is claimed that the abandonment of the relativistic mass point of view &amp;quot;undermines&amp;quot; the famous equation &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. I find this statement rather odd. After all, the broader principle underlying this equation is that if &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the 4-momentum vector of a particle, then the magnitude of &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same in all inertial reference frames and equal (in units where c = 1) to the rest mass of the particle. This remains true regardless of whether one uses the language of relativistic mass or not. As currently written, this subsection is liable to confuse anyone who is unfamiliar with the subject.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 20:41, 25 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Go ahead and fix it. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:27, 26 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Done.--[[User:Lemonpeel|Lemonpeel]] 13:37, 26 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Great article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1) Superb avoidance of difficult science in a scientific article. Best not to be confusing.&lt;br /&gt;
2) Nice attention on Eddington rather than the theory itself.&lt;br /&gt;
3) Good mind reading regarding Eddington's dreams. &lt;br /&gt;
4) Nice work ignoring the facts about things that have been inventing using GR such as GPS&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And rather than simply be sarcastic, I will work on a better article over the weekend. One that actually discusses the science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Special and general relativity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This article seems to combine the two. They are different ideas and need to be distinguished. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 19:21, 24 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Agreed. Separate articles would make more sense. I don't have time to do the necessary work right now, but if no one else does it I'm sure I'll get  to it eventually. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 10:11, 25 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:If someone will split the pages, I'll help flesh them out.--[[User:ZLewis|ZLewis]] 10:42, 1 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Moral Relativism line needs to go. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have never heard anyone advocating moral relativism use either of the theories of relativity to do it.  Actually, the only people who I've ever heard that from are relativity deniers like Fred Hutchison.  Not only does that show a grave misunderstanding of the scientific theory, but also a misunderstanding of the phrase &amp;quot;moral relativism&amp;quot;.  In any case, you can't draw moral implications from scientific theories.  When someone says that Einstein's theory of relativity implies some kind of moral relativism, they're really saying &amp;quot;The geometric theory of gravity allows me to internalize my moral decisions&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That line is ridiculous and irrelevant, and needs to disappear.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't like it ''at all'' in its present form, but the word &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; is thrown around casually ''quite a lot'' and there might be justification for a section with a title like &amp;quot;what relativity is not.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:E.g. [http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2006/06/relativity.html Scott Adams], author of the Dilbert comic strip, says &amp;quot;Einstein’s great insight was assuming reality was not fixed, and that everything was relative to the observer&amp;quot; and goes on to say &amp;quot;I have extended that thinking to people...&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I think using Scott Adams as a reference or a jumping-off point for discussion really constitutes holding one's self to a dismally low standard. He's posted his own theories of physics to his blog a few times, freely admitting that he knows they're wrong and that he just takes pride in the fact that the layman can't successfully challenge them. In all honesty, moral relativism is a perfectly valid subject for an article, but it doesn't have anything to do with physics other than an unfortunate overlap of words and definitions in English. Putting this section in just makes the authors look like they're bristling for a fight. [[User:Willforpresident|Willforpresident]] 21:25, 7 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:What follows is interesting if not very profound, but dragging Einstein into it is not helpful.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It just goes to show the value of jargon. When scientists give something a simple name like &amp;quot;relativity,&amp;quot; people assume they understand it and misapply it. I'm just thankful that people aren't very familiar with mathematics or we'd be hearding about crop circles in Galois fields. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:50, 25 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I like the &amp;quot;what relativity is not&amp;quot; idea. Might be worth pointing out that relativity in physics didn't start with SR; there is such a thing as Galilean relativity, after all. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:57, 25 February 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This line must go.  It is not relevant to the article.  Have a disambiguation page for relativity.  The citation is completely incorrect.  The website http://www.moralrelativity.com/about1.html says nothing about general relativity influencing moral relativity.  This article says 'Relativity has generated a huge following by advocates of moral relativism,' but the website http://www.moralrelativity.com/about1.html does not make any mention of this statement, therefore it is improperly cited.  Citations are supposed to support claims, and this one does not.  (Read the website for yourself).  Also, just because relativity is a homophone in this case doesn't mean it belongs in an article of the (general) theory of relativity.  ''Please make a disambiguation page'' because this is clearly in the wrong place.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the moral relativity part from this article and placed it in a new article called [[Moral relativity]].  Relativity here is clearly just a homophone, and moral relativity is irrelevant to special or general relativity.  To illustrate my point, see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativity.  Relativity in physics has a special meaning. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 00:38, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Folks, moral relativism is a big reason for the political support of types of relativity.  It's obviously relevant to this article, and the above criticism only reinforces the need to include a reference.  We can debate how to say it, but censorship is not an option here.  Go to Wikipedia for that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:31, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Okay, then that can go into the [[Moral relativity]] article, which now exists.  There is no support for your claim.  Neither is there a need for political support for a scientific theory.  The way you describe it, moral relativity references this theory of relativity, not the other way around.  The theory of relativity neither relies on moral relativity in any explanation of it or needs it to be mentioned for a complete treatment of the theory, and therefore it is inappropriate to add it here.  I direct you again to the dictionary http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativity in order to clarify that relativity in this sense has specific meaning in the domain of physics, and arbritrary theories that share the word are not in this domain nor are related in any concrete way, simply being homophones. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 18:40, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Someone added more about the moral relativity bit, so I put it in the right place: in the article on [[Moral relativity]].  The section says, &amp;quot;Advocates of moral relativity seized on the theory of relativity to legitimize their views,&amp;quot; which is about moral relavitity and how they use the theory of relativity, not how the the theory of relativity involves moral relativity.  I challenge the writer again to find a work on the physics theory that metions moral relativity at all.  Just because a page mentions the theory of relativity does not make it a legitimate part of the theory itself, and as such, does not belong in this article.  If anything, the [[Moral relativity]] article should make a link to this article, not the other way around.  I am not sure the agenda here, but it seems that someone would like to promote moral relativity by attaching it to unrelated articles.  Please add your information to the correct article in the correct place.  Again, here is the link: [[Moral relativity]].  Go crazy.  [[User:Teji|Teji]] 14:42, 6 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
ASchlafly, you added the line &amp;quot;Advocates of moral relativity seized on the theory of relativity to legitimize their views&amp;quot; and gave a citation afterwards. If you read the page that you cite, you will see that the author merely uses Special Relativity to demonstrate how moral relativism works. He does not &amp;quot;seize&amp;quot; on the theory and does not use it to &amp;quot;legitimize&amp;quot; his view. Can you find a better source please? (or remove the sentence)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I can't tell who or when this comment was made, because it lacks the signature (use the signature button above).  But I will look for more sites about to support my statement, which should be easy to find.  Frankly, I've never heard anyone doubt the statement.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:07, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Perhaps you've been listening the wrong people. No reputable explanations of relativity mention moral relativity. Find a reputable one. Don't look for moral relativity explanations that include physics relativity, because that information belongs in [[Moral relativity]], not here. You are researching the wrong topic. Repeat: look for information about the physical theory of relativity and see if you can find one that mentions moral relativity (not pages that talk about moral relativity and mention physical relativity). Furthermore, anyone can set up a web page and say whatever they want, so web pages are generally not a very good resource (unless it's the physics department website at MIT, for instance, because it has credibility in this field). You should find reputable scientific texts. And, please, stick the topic at hand: physical science topics needs physical science resources. There is ample room in the [[Moral relativity]] article to discuss. In fact, I'm surprised you aren't contributing more to that article (especially compared to how much you try add to in this article), since you seem to be very interested in the topic and are more knowledgable about it than physical relativity. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:08, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I've received no response.  Can I remove the paragraph now? [[User:Teji|Teji]] 16:59, 11 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::By the way, I checked the history, and MatteeNeutra made the uncited statement above about needing a better source or removing the sentence. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 17:02, 11 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;e=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; not &amp;quot;attributed&amp;quot; to Einstein. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;e=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; isn't just &amp;quot;attributed&amp;quot; to Einstein.  When someone says &amp;quot;attributed&amp;quot;, they typically mean that someone is given credit for an idea somewhat apocryphally.  Einstein obtained the relation in his &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Körper&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt;, in which, from the Lorentz transformations, he obtained the relations:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E = \sqrt{c^4m^2+p^2c^2}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
and then, as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;p\to0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;E=mc^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And these bizarre polemics are undermining what little credibility this encyclopedia has.  Sneering at Einstein and glorifying the contributions of Ponicare makes all of the sense of arguing over whether Leibniz or Newton invented calculus, particularly since there are very palpable differences between Einstein and Ponicare's treatments of the subjects.  And, I see someone has removed the &amp;quot;there is no evidence for the general theory&amp;quot;, but I'm sure it will be back by this afternoon.  That's ever weirder -- how on earth can someone say that &amp;quot;there is no evidence&amp;quot; and then, in the same article, link to black holes?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not going to go back to that article on [[Dirac Notation]] to fill up all of those links with articles until I'm sure one of the administrators isn't going to replace them with accusations of quantum mechanics being tantamount to the Kabbalah, or something equally stupid. (unsigned)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: It is a fact that Poincare published E=mc2 and most of the rest of special relativity before Einstein. Maybe you think that this is sneering or glorifying, but it is a fact, and there is no serious dispute about it. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 20:17, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: This is true, but what Poincare described was a specific case of E=mc2.  An experimental result showed that there was momentum when a body ejected EM radiation, but the mass was unaccounted for.  Poincare described the mass of the EM as m=E/c2.  Einstein derived this formula from more fundamental assumptions, the speed of light is absolute, etc.  This is why his work is so famous.  In fact, in all of science, nothing belongs to any one person, even though they may get credit, but are supposedly discovered.  Also do not forget that Einstein also published General Relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
::Furthermore, while Poincare regarded it as superfluous, scientists of the day were still trying to work with the luminescent ether.  Einstein's work proved this unnecessary.&lt;br /&gt;
::Again this is a lesson in science.  We are always trying to compress and refine our science.  Einstein, while he of course drew on other's work and surely knew of Poincare's m=E/c2 paper, his work was more refined and simpler, deriving many principles, Poincare's and new ones, from a few fundamental principles.  Poincare published a paper about a month before Einstein with similar work, but in science, no one person makes a discover.  Don't forget, Newton has his Hooke.  But like Newton, it was Einstein's derivation and formalizations that worked better. (unsigned)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Yes, Poincare described was a specific case of E=mc2, but so did Einstein. Einstein did not foresee particle annihilation or nuclear energy. Poincare's description of the ether as superfluous is nearly identical to Einstein's.&lt;br /&gt;
::: How was Einstein's work on special relativity any more refined, simpler, or better working? I deny this. Poincare showed a better understanding of the theory than Einstein. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:16, 23 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Don't ask me, ask Lorentz. http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: OK, I looked at your link.  The first thing I saw was a claim that the 1919 eclipse proved the General Relativity.  We now know that eclipse proved no such thing.  So much for the credibility of that link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The link does show that Lorentz and Einstein were patting each other on the back.  That's fine, but it suggests a lack of objectivity towards the odd man out, Poincare.  This dispute cannot be resolved by self-interested party, obviously.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:29, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Can't get much more credible than a publication by Lorentz on Gutenberg, bud.  It may be dated, but it is closer to the date of Einstein's work.  As far as I see you, you have the burden to prove your claim as much as everyone else has to support the opposite claim.  Where is your evidence of credible sources? [[User:Teji|Teji]] 18:45, 5 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Old version ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I was just looking at [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_Relativity&amp;amp;oldid=15341 an old version of this page], and the absurdity of the &amp;quot;scientific&amp;quot; claims made, combined with the low quality of the writing and blatant inaccuracies, make the article, quite frankly, almost intellectually offensive. I realize that this has since been rectified, but if this is the quality that is to be expected of Conservapedia articles, then I do not blame those who dismiss it as a failed attempt. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:12, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: be specific in your statements if you expect a response.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I find the content reverted to in the above edit to be quite disturbing.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The General Theory of Relativity does ''not'' reject Isaac Newton's &amp;quot;God-given&amp;quot; theory of gravitation, it simply provides an explanation for ''why'' it functions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: that was obviously vandalism.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* It is most certainly ''not'' a problem that the General Theory of Relativity is based upon mathematics as opposed to empirical evidence, as seems to be insinuated by this version.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: mathematics is mathematics, and unless there is empirical evidence it is not science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Mathematics describes physics. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:33, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Albert Einstein's work ''did'' contribute to the development of the nuclear bomb. ''E=mc&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;'' describes the duality between matter and energy, the principle upon which the nuclear bomb, and all other nuclear devices, functions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: nope.  ''E=mc&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;'' is a statement of relativistic effect, not atomic power.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yes, but the mass lost in the nuclear reaction is converted to energy, which is the fundamental power of the weapon. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:33, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Nothing useful has even been built based on the theory of relativity.&amp;quot; Sure, sure… nuclear power plants aren't useful at ''all'', are they? GPSs aren't useful ''at all'', are they?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: GPSs are useful, but they weren't built using General Relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Without realativity describing gravitation redshift, the timing for the GPS satelite would be off by about 45 microseconds/day.  Further reading on the matter at http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:08, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I think Lorenzian relativity accounts for the GPS time dilation more precisely.  But that isn't really my point.  The GPS clocks are updated based on communications between the satellites and ground stations, not based on any theory.  If you claim that GPS is built based on relativity, then you should be able to prove your case with an historical reference.  No such proof exists.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:39, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That observation does not support the false claim that GPS is based on General Relativity.  Other theories predict a dilation of time, and satellites are obviously synchronized based on communication, not theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:11, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::No, they have GR corrections built in. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 19:15, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Can you please cite an alternate theory that accounts for the time dilation experiecned by the GPS satelites along with the math that matches that of relativity? --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:17, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;quot;Most conservatives are skeptical since science is supposed to be about finding proof before a theory becomes a fact, not after.&amp;quot; And ''where'' are the statistics that show this?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Don't know who wrote that statement, but it's a correct statement of what science means.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I was refering to the claim that &amp;quot;''most'' conservatives are skeptical since science…&amp;quot; (emphasis added) [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:33, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Gravitons are not predicted by general relativity; much to the contrary, the two have not been reconciled.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* It is currently believed that space does indeed have curvature, what is described as &amp;quot;negative&amp;quot; curvature, giving it a saddle-like shape overall, but curvature nonetheless.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The denial of demonstrated principles because they do not coincide with your worldview is not scientific, it's purely reactionary nonsense. I'm not impressed by Examples of Bias in Wikipedia citing Wikipedians taking issue with this as a &amp;quot;bias&amp;quot;. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:11, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: OK, fine, no one is trying to impress you.  The Wikipedia entry was biased and demonstrably false, as explained in [[Bias in Wikipedia]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Oh, and I mean no offense to Aschlafly. Although I do not necessarily agree with all his views, I do not wish to disparage him, and I recognize his value as a contributor. I've reconciled with him on this issue, and want to make clear that I do not mean this comment as an attack. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 22:44, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I just realized that I had somehow managed to fail to see that Aschlafly's edit was a simple revert to a previous version. I don't necessarily agree with the decision, and I don't retract the points with which I take issue, but Aschlafly is not responsible for the content, and I'm sorry for insinuating that he was. I've changed some of my comment to reflect the fact that the edit was simply a revert. [[User:Linus M.|Geekman314]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;([[User talk:Linus M.|contact me]])&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 23:29, 9 March 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Merge with draft==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a draft for this article [[Theory of relativity/draft | here]]. Surely it's about time these two were merged together or at the very least decide which one is to be continued. I will continue to work on Theory of Relativity/draft as I feel it is a much clearer article. What does everyone else think? [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 07:33, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your draft article has some great stuff in it.  Would you like to merge it into the main article now?  However, please do not delete anything from the main article as part of the merge.  Thanks and a good Easter to you.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: By the way, it appears that relativity is taught in college without using the concept of relativistic mass.  But let's go with your relativistic mass as you wrote it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:06, 8 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Yeah, I'll take a shot at a merge now. Relativistic mass is quite important to the theory, as from it we can determine that matter cannot travel faster than the speed of light. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 18:17, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This isn't Wikipedia ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Teji, don't delete facts here that liberals don't like.  This isn't Wikipedia.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:02, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Please read my explanation above.  I don't think anyone likes unsourced information that is in the wrong topic.  Please contribute to [[Moral relativity]].  I had to create that page while someone was adding information about it to the this topic.  [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:10, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Furthermore, that link is about moral relativity, not special relativity.  It belongs in [[Moral relativity]].  It is shocking that someone so interested in that topic didn't even think to make the article.  In fact, I started that article!  [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:12, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Here is what I said above in case you didn't catch it: ''No reputable explanations of relativity mention moral relativity. Find a reputable one. Don't look for moral relativity explanations that include physics relativity, because that information belongs in Moral relativity, not here. You are researching the wrong topic. Repeat: look for information about the physical theory of relativity and see if you can find one that mentions moral relativity (not pages that talk about moral relativity and mention physical relativity). Furthermore, anyone can set up a web page and say whatever they want, so web pages are generally not a very good resource (unless it's the physics department website at MIT, for instance, because it has credibility in this field). You should find reputable scientific texts. And, please, stick the topic at hand: physical science topics needs physical science resources. There is ample room in the Moral relativity article to discuss. In fact, I'm surprised you aren't contributing more to that article (especially compared to how much you try add to in this article), since you seem to be very interested in the topic and are more knowledgable about it than physical relativity. Teji 13:08, 9 April 2007 (EDT)''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I find it interesting that when you cannot support your information you resort to name-calling and statements about wikipedia.  Does this site want credible and accurate information or information with an agenda?  Because if it is the latter, please make a statement to that effect in your policy pages, or would that make this website too credible and accurate? [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Teji, the statement does not claim that the theory of relativity supports moral relativity, but merely that supporters of moral relativity seized upon the theory of relativity to justify their views.  &amp;quot;Advocates of moral relativity seized on the theory of relativity to legitimize their views.[3] Historians such as Paul Johnson wrote about how the theory of relativity caused a sea change, justified or not, in 20th century thought.&amp;quot; That statement is correct and should not be deleted.  Read it, and reread it, and only comment further here if you can provide something that specifically refutes that statement.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:18, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:It is in the wrong place.  The statement is clearly about [[Moral relativity]].  This statement is also correct: ''Jesus is God'', does it belong in this article?  No.  Here is another correct statement: ''morality is &amp;quot;what is the good&amp;quot; and ethics is &amp;quot;how do I practice it&amp;quot;'' from the moral relativity site.  Does it belong in this artcle?  Certainly not. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:21, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Correctness is not enough.  There also must be accuracy.  Information about [[Moral relativity]] belongs in that article. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 13:22, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Maybe you should change the title to just &amp;quot;Relativity&amp;quot;. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:03, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Okay, how do I do that?  We could also make a disambiguation page, but I don't know how to do that either. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 14:28, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::RSchlafly, you've missed the point. This article is about the Theory of Relativity as a scientific theory. As such, the article should not talk about Moral relativity which, apart from sharing using the same word, is absolutely nothing at all to do with the Theory of Relativity. I also, do not think that the sentence about Moral relativity should be put on this article. At the very most a link at the bottom of this article to Moral relativity, but you may as well link it to a page on forestry for all the relevance it has. [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 05:04, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Exactly, if you want to speak about moral relativists using special or general relativity as validation for their philosophy then it should be placed in an articlea bout moral relativism.  It should '''not''' be here. Perhaps - perhaps - it could go in a section on the influence of the theory of relativity on 20th century culture.[[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 05:35, 10 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Why was quote about Dicke removed? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I added this quote about the Francis Dicke's theory.  Aschalfy, why did you remove it without any comments?  It is from the same time magazine article that is already cited in this article.  It clarifies why Dicke's theory is less professionally accepted!  Please read the article yourself.  It shows that Einstein's theory was closer than Dicke's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''But the J.P.L. experimenters reduced the margin of error to 4% or less by locating the distant spacecraft within 100 ft. of their actual position. Thus, when they calculated that the signal to Mariner was slowed down by 204 millionths of a second on its round trip, '''they dealt the Brans-Dicke theory a sharp if not decisive blow'''. Their measurement was only 4 millionths of a second off the Einsteinian prediction, but 18 millionths of a second off the Brans-Dicke figure.'' http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,943324,00.html&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is the same article that that is cited for the statement ''Physicist Robert Dicke of Princeton University was a prominent critic[7]''.  The same article that shows why Robert Dicke's theory is not accepted among scientists.  Dicke suffered not just because he criticized Einstein's theory, but also because his theory was not as accurate. [[User:Teji|Teji]] 14:41, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Time magazine is not an authority on whether Dicke's theory is better than Einstein's.  Our [[rules]] are very clear not to cite journalists as authorities beyond their expertise.  A scientific citation that I added shows that Dicke's theory is held in high regard to this day.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:50, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The JPL isn't?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You've got to do better than that if you want a response.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:13, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: And a link from the JPL http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/70s/release_1970_0566.html --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 16:15, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That's an old self-serving press release about only one study.  My footnote about relativity, citing a renaissance in Dicke's theory, is more recent and more comprehensive, and is based on a astrophysics encyclopedia.  So your cite is not appropriate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: And another article http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/9404/dicke.html about Dicke's critique of relativity and  where it failed to produce a better answer. Tests included sodium lines in the sun, distance to the moon, and precession of Mercury. I do not believe that it is fair to say that the ''theory'' is held in high regard today. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 16:28, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I'll take a look at this.  I must say, however, that any article that starts out by calling its opponent a &amp;quot;crank&amp;quot; lacks credibility.  But this cite is worth including to reflect the political bias against Dicke, resulting in his being denied the Nobel Prize.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It actually specifically says that Dicke was not a &amp;quot;crank.&amp;quot;  [[User:Murray|Murray]] 17:37, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Ah, yes.  The author charitably concedes that Dicke himself was not a crank, just anyone who supported Dicke's view was.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: This article, which I'm reading now, is incredibly biased and one-sided.  It declares the &amp;quot;General Theory&amp;quot; to be possibly the &amp;quot;greatest single achievement in physics ... of all time.&amp;quot;  And the author states his extremely biased view before telling us about testing results.  Too bad this conflicts with the encyclopedia I cite in the content page.  The value of this article is to show how intolerant supporters of the &amp;quot;General Theory&amp;quot; are of any criticism, including that by Dicke.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:58, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: If Dicke's results were as good or better than General Relativity, then there would be no issue at all.  It also addresses reference #8 about not getting a Nobel Prize - that is because the prize is for discovery, not interpretations.  He wasn't a theoretician and thus didn't have other theories and discoveries.  The individual Dicke is held with high regard in the community - his theory is not (though it is respected in developing the framework for relativistic events). I am curious to see a citation that shows his theory as being respected for the results it gives.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Also the article you misuse by taking the whole renaissance statement out of says this in the same paragraph before your quote!&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::''Initially a popular alternative to General Relativity, the Brans-Dicke theory lost favor as it became clear that omega must be very large-an artificial requirement in some views. Nevertheless, the theory has remained a paradigm for the introduction of scalar fields into gravitational theory, and as such has enjoyed a renaissance in connection with theories of higher dimensional space-time.''&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: [[User:Teji|Teji]] 16:57, 11 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Muon experiment from another point of view ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From the point of view of the muon in the experiment mentioned, time is not slowed down, but rather distance is compressed.  So instead of dilating time 5x across 10km of travel at relativistic speed, the muon saw that space had compressed from 10km to 2km (also 5x) and it was still traveling that distance.  Thus, the same result - just different perspectives. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 20:50, 27 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Ref:  Despite being one of the most accomplished physicists in the 20th century, Dicke was never given a Nobel Prize. ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to remove this reference.  Nobel Prizes are given for discoveries and advancements.  Dicke was an experimentalist - not a theorist.  He didn't make discoveries or advancements but rather proved or disproved what the theorists came up with.  As such, the work he did was not something that was noted by those nominating for the Nobel Prize.  Likewise, you won't see a book critic get a Nobel Prize for literature, no matter how good of a critic he or she may be.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 21:02, 27 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Given that there has been no comment on this in opposition, I am removing the reference until someone can dispute the question of if any of Dicke's work was the type for which a Nobel Prize would have been given.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 15:46, 30 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm reverting your change.  Experimentalists win the Nobel Prize all the time.  A prize was given to someone else for work Dicke was doing.  In fact, experimentalists probably win the prize more than theorists.  The deletion of that sentence is for liberal purposes, and we don't allow that here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:50, 30 April 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Government support of relativity research problems ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The section on government support of relativity research needs a big re-write, but it needs to be clear what is intended first. There are several specific complaints which seem to have been jumbled together:&lt;br /&gt;
#LIGO was a failure, and the money could have been spent elsewhere.&lt;br /&gt;
#Too much money is spent on string theory and similar theories.&lt;br /&gt;
#The government does not support research into (unspecified) alternate theories.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
#This is just liberal crybabying. Not all experiments work, and you can't know ahead of time which ones will. Most such complaints about too much money being spent on some experimental program are based on the idea of government as sugar-daddy, and whining when sugar-daddy likes someone else best. &lt;br /&gt;
#This complaint is more legitimate, as there are serious claims that string theory is not a scientific theory. However, this complaint doesn't belong in this article, because string theory is not relativity; it's an attempt to reconcile general relativity with quantum mechanics. String theory would replace general relativity, if a coherent theory were formulated, and then tested.&lt;br /&gt;
#This complaint seems ridiculous, as the government has funded plenty of tests to verify general relativity; any experimenter who wants to test an alternate theory can devise a test which would produce one result if GR is correct, and another if the alternate theory is true, and ask for funding for a test to verify GR.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On the other hand, perhaps the section could be deleted altogether. [[User:Ultramontanist|Ultramontanist]] 02:02, 23 June 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Relativistic mass ==&lt;br /&gt;
This paragraph is nonsense:&lt;br /&gt;
: There is a logical difficulty, however, to an increase in relativistic mass. Such increase would only exist in the direction of motion, and the rest mass would remain intact with respect to a force applied in a direction orthogonal to velocity. But mass is not a vector, and the notion of the mass of an object having different values depending on the direction of an applied force is unacceptable.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relativistic mass applies no matter what the direction of the force is. Some don't like the term &amp;quot;relatvistic mass&amp;quot;, but for other reasons.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is also nonsense:&lt;br /&gt;
:In layman's terms, these two assumptions can be restated as:&lt;br /&gt;
::1. It is impossible ever to transmit information faster than the speed of light.&lt;br /&gt;
::   2. The laws of physics are identical, without any variation, in every location throughout the universe.&lt;br /&gt;
::   3. The laws of physics are identical, without any variation, no matter how fast something is traveling (in the absence of acceleration). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is not a restatement. Relativity says masses cannot for faster than light. Probably not information either, but that is another principle. Parts 2 and 3 are confusing and misleading, at best. Relativity teaches that there are no inertial frames in the universe. The laws of physics apply throughout the universe. They apply whether there is acceleration or not. But special relativity has more to do with inertial frames. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I suggest getting rid of these &amp;quot;layman's terms&amp;quot;. They aren't. They don't clarify anything for anybody. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:29, 8 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== GPS edit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bayes, your claim that GPS is based on the Theory of General Relativity is not correct.  GPS synchronization can be done directly, and has never relied on the theory.  Your edits should be reverted.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:37, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:My apologies.  I didn't mean to edit recklessly; I thought I was correcting a typo.  In fact, the [http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html source cited by that sentence] ''before'' I made my edit (and many other sources as well) indicate that relativistic corrections are, in fact, taken into account by GPS receivers.  Clocks on the satellites run at different rates than those on the ground due to the fact that they are at a higher altitude, where gravity is weaker; hence the need for a correction for gravitational time dilation, as predicted by general relativity.  Yes, that means that clocks in Denver tick slightly faster than clocks in New York.  I would be happy to look at any sources you can provide that show how GPS keeps accurate time without those corrections.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:30, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Your citation is to a silly, unsupported and off-hand remark by a professor of astronomy.  GPS was built by engineers in the 1970s, who would not have even attempted to calculated the time dilation using relativity.  There would be no reason to rely on relativity, since the clocks can be and were synchronized more directly, more simply and more accurately by communicating with them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:09, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::1. Let me reiterate that the citation was there before I made my edit.  The previous version denied that relativistic corrections are necessary, and then cited a source to the contrary. Your recent edit makes a similar claim, but cites a source that doesn't delve deeply into technical aspects of how GPS actually works, and is therefore irrelevant to the claim.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::2. You can dismiss the citation in question if you like, but it seems that the overwhelming majority of experts disagree; consider [http://www.aticourses.com/global_positioning_system.htm 1] [http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp 2] [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdf 3], which I doubt would be considered &amp;quot;silly, unsupported and off-hand remark[s].&amp;quot;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::3. GPS designers in the 1970s certainly knew about relativistic effects.  Here's an exerpt from [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdf 3]:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::[B]efore the first GPS satellite was launched in 1977, although it was recognized that orbiting clocks would require such a relativistic offset, there was uncertainty as to its magnitude, and even its sign. So correcting frequency synthesizers were built into the clocks, spanning a large enough range around the nominal 10.23 MHz clock frequency to encompass all possibilities. After the satellite's cesium atomic clock was turned on, it was operated for three weeks to measure its rate. The frequency shift measured during this initial period was found to be 4.425 parts per ten billion, agreeing with the relativistic calculation to better than 1%.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
:::4. Yes, communication with the satellites is possible.  That doesn't change the fact that satellite clocks run at different rates than ground-based clocks, which would result in huge errors if the satellite clock frequencies weren't compensated for time dilation effects.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 15:17, 24 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Criticism of LIGO ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The criticism of LIGO under the heading &amp;quot;Government funding...&amp;quot; should be viewed in context.  The observatories are not yet operating at their maximum level of precision.  The usual procedure when building large projects like this is to make sure they work at more imprecise levels, and then &amp;quot;tune&amp;quot; them closer and closer to their limits.  It isn't surprising that LIGO has not yet detected gravitational waves, and the consensus is that such waves will be detected in the future.  The [http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/sept/gravitywaves/index.html cource cited] for that criticism even mentions that physicists are &amp;quot;confident&amp;quot; that LIGO will be successful.  After all, the NSF doesn't shell out hundreds of millions of dollars in grant money on a coin flip; they were/are convinced that getting results is a slam dunk.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:48, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Hope springs eternal.  I'm afraid you sound like an oil-well driller (wildcatter) who, after encountering one dry well after another in a region, says &amp;quot;just spend a little more money and drill again!&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: LIGO has been a disappointment so far, and there is no sign of success right around the corner.  At some point accountability is in order, even if more money is to be spent searching gravity waves.  Realize that this search has been ongoing for 100 years, without any detection.  How many more years are necessary?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:12, 23 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::While I fully agree that accountability for all major budget items is in order at some point, I don't think the oil-driller analogy is valid in this context.  LIGO is still far from its designed sensitivity, as mentioned [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;amp;_udi=B6TJM-4B5R97X-F&amp;amp;_user=1010281&amp;amp;_handle=V-WA-A-W-VB-MsSAYVA-UUW-U-AAVUWVWVAB-AABDYWBWAB-CEYDYDUEB-VB-U&amp;amp;_fmt=summary&amp;amp;_coverDate=01%2F21%2F2004&amp;amp;_rdoc=15&amp;amp;_orig=browse&amp;amp;_srch=%23toc%235314%232004%23994829998%23476198%21&amp;amp;_cdi=5314&amp;amp;view=c&amp;amp;_acct=C000050264&amp;amp;_version=1&amp;amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;amp;_userid=1010281&amp;amp;md5=6a930932559a96137a8b6aafdb2d9372 here].  Plans are already underway to do go beyond merely detecting gravitational waves to doing astrophysics with them.  Furthermore, detection of gravitational waves requires extreme sensitivity that can only be achieved with modern technology.  Serious efforts to detect them didn't begin until the 1960s, when Joseph Weber built his bar detectors, and even then the scientific consensus was that his detectors weren't sensitive enough.  Some scientific advances just have to wait for technology to allow their discovery.  Tell you what, if LIGO is considered a failure in 10 years, I owe you a Coke.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 15:40, 24 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It's been nearly 2 years since your message above, and LIGO has been operational for nearly 7 years.  Do you really insist on waiting a full 10 years (after spending a billion dollars) before allowing some accountability?  LIGO soaked up a ton of research money that could have been spent on promising technology and potential cures.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:54, 23 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Other issues ==&lt;br /&gt;
There are some other aspects of this article that I would like to consider adding to or changing.&lt;br /&gt;
*A fair amount of text is dedicated to Eddington's findings and not many other astronomical observations.  Eddington published his results in 1919; obviously, since then, there have been many others who have improved on his observations.  &lt;br /&gt;
*The &amp;quot;Ostensible Paradoxes&amp;quot; section should be heavily altered or removed; there aren't any paradoxes listed there.  First, the SR postulates don't offer any opinion on whether physical constants have had the same value throughout the history of the universe; they state that all inertial observers get the same answer when they measure the speed of light.   Second, there are several ways to measure wave velocity; some of the most common are [[group velocity]] and [[phase velocity]].  Both types of velocities can exceed the speed of light (''c'') without violating special relativity.  However, the energy velocity and information velocity do not exceed ''c'', also in accordance with SR.  There is nothing mysterious or sinister going on here; these concepts are addressed or at least mentioned in many undergraduate courses.  Third, the universal constant ''c'' is the speed of light ''in vacuum''; the speed of light ''in materials'' is less than than ''c'' since the electric permittivity and magnetic permeability of materials are different than those of vacuum.  That means that matter can travel faster than light ''in a material'' without violating SR; try Googling [[Cerenkov radiation]].--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 18:28, 24 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm concerned about the use of some citations, which seem to be misrepresented in order to discredit relativity. For instance:&lt;br /&gt;
:*The Economist article cited does not attack relativity; it's a discussion of how GR is being tested to its limits, like any other theory.  If any improved theory of gravity is found, GR is likely to be a useful subset of it, in the same way that Newtonian gravity is a useful subset of GR.  And anyway, I thought non-scientific sources [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=prev&amp;amp;oldid=95688 weren't supposed to used] in these situations.&lt;br /&gt;
:*The new cite for the statement ''There is a correlation between enthusiasm for the theory of relativity and political views'' is an opinion piece about how moral relativists hijacked scientific relativity for their own purposes.  The cite doesn't make that claim, and it doesn't show any data to support it.  Frankly, I'd be very surprised if any such correlation existed. Even IF that kind of correlation existed, it doesn't belong in a scientific article.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The overall tone of the article seems to try to convince the reader to be skeptical of relativity.  It appears to me that such skepticism is ideologically motivated, e.g., ''Although the liberally biased Wikipedia contains lengthy criticisms of the subjects of many entries...'', ''The Democratic Congress insisted on the $250 million LIGO project...'', ''There is a correlation between enthusiasm for the theory of relativity and political views''.  I don't fully understand the motivation, but it bears repeating that good science (of which relativity is a part) is independent of ideology.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 17:54, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: You're not the first to deny a [[liberal bias]] in science.  But surely you would agree that the following areas of science, and perhaps nearly of all science, are susceptible to political bias:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
**[[global warming]]&lt;br /&gt;
**nuclear energy&lt;br /&gt;
**the [[Strategic Defense Initiative]]&lt;br /&gt;
**claims of extraterritorial life&lt;br /&gt;
**demands for government funding of science&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:11, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I absolutely agree that deciding what science to fund, implementation of policies pertaining to scientific findings, or practical use of scientific results (like nuclear weapons), and perhaps some other issues not mentioned are or can be politicized.  But I stand by my basic point: if you get a liberal to measure acceleration due to gravity on Earth's surface, and then get a conservative to do the same thing, they'll both get 9.8 m/s^2.  Similarly, relativity has been around long enough, has useful applications, and is so successful in predicting experimental outcomes that it should not be subject to the same treatment as the more controversial topics you mention.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 18:24, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: You apparently don't concede the liberal bias in the majority of my examples above, such as global warming and SDI.  When I worked as engineer at a research facility in the 1980s, we had an IBM scientist with impeccable credentials give a presentation claim that SDI was impossible, dangerous, and bad politics.  It's silly to pretend that his claim of impossibility of SDI was unrelated to politics.  Likewise, it's silly to pretend there is no political bias in global warming theories.  But if we can't agree on that, then there is little point in discussing this further.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:33, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Did you read the first sentence of my post above?  Global warming is an example of tough policy decisions that could be implemented based on scientific findings.  Surely both conservatives and liberals agree with the basic finding that the earth is warming.  Similarly, the political debate over SDI was about the USE of science and technology, not the FINDINGS of science and technology.  Sure, scientists can have opinions about what to do with their findings, but presumably the experimental results are valid across political lines.  In any case, this is an aside; my specific concerns with the article, as addressed on this page, still stand.  I assume by your willingness to exit the conversation that you don't have any problems with me addressing them?--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 18:48, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Your first sentence omitted any reference to global warming.  Global warming is a liberal scientific theory about if and why the earth is warming.  Yes, there are political biases in many scientific theories.  If you can't accept that, then I urge you to become more open-minded first before trying to pretend that something is immune from politics.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I have no objections to factual edits of this article that add information.  I do object to pushing a liberal point of view by deleting factual information.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:02, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Sounds good.  However, the fact that GPS satellite clocks have built-in corrections for relativistic effects is something I inserted previously, and it was reverted.  I hope you understand that I brought up these issues in an effort to accurately represent the science, and not because of some agenda.  As I've said, I don't think special and general relativity are associated with political controversy.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 19:12, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Bayes, you continue to insist on a falsehood, and I attribute that to [[liberal]] distortions in what you've read elsewhere.  Please recognize that politics does distort science.  '''GPS satellite clocks were not built based on predictions made by the theory of relativity.'''--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: See my post above, where I have cited several sources that assert the contrary.  On the other hand, you have yet to provide any evidence of how GPS can work without taking such corrections into account.  Your source for that claim does not address timing issues with regard to GPS.  I have to say that I'm increasingly baffled by your continued denial of this verifiable fact.  How would a vast liberal conspiracy gain from hiding how clocks work?--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:00, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Bayes, you're talking to a former engineer.  GPS was built by engineers, not by theoretical physicists.  GPS never used the theory of relativity.  If you continue to dispute that (likely due to [[liberal]] bias), then give me your very best cite for your claim that GPS used the theory of relativity and I'll look at it.  Otherwise, drop it and move on to a different issue.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:41, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
GPS and relativity links:&lt;br /&gt;
* http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html&lt;br /&gt;
* http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp&lt;br /&gt;
* http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/gps.htm (actual equations)&lt;br /&gt;
* http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/&lt;br /&gt;
* http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~kpgokeef/pubs/ENGO625relativity.pdf (slides from an engineering lecture - see pages 23-30 for listing of relativistic effects GPS accounts for - note conclusions on page 31.)&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 21:53, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: No, you're not listening.  Give me your best cite for the claim that GPS *uses* the theory of relativity.  Pick out your best, that's all I'm going to waste time on, since the answer is obvious to any engineer: GPS never used the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:58, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: In that case, I should probably reference http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf &amp;quot;GPS And Relativity: An Engineering Overview&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The first page introduction finishes with &amp;quot;In this paper, we compare the predictions of relativity to those of intuitive, classical, Newtonian physics; we show how large or small the differences are, and how and what applications those difference are large enough to make it necessary to correct the formulas of classical physics.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:: Lorentz Contraction is covered on page 2, Gravitational redshift on page 3, and the acceleration of the satellite on page 4.&lt;br /&gt;
::: &amp;quot;Since GPS receivers work in the time and not in the frequency domain, they handle the velocity, gravity, and acceleration shifts differently than described above.  First, each GPS space vehicle (SV) clock is offset from its nominal rate by about -4.45x10&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;-10&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; (= -38 microseconds per day) to allow for the relativistic offsets between the differences between the SV and the ground.  Of this, -38 microseconds per day, about -45 are due to the gravitational potential difference between the SV at its mean distance and the earth's surface, and +7 to the mean SV speed, which is about 3.87 km/sec.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:: Does that help answer the question? --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 22:22, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The very first sentences of this paper prove my point (emphasis added):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does '''not''' include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein's general theory of relativity would seem to require - transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter - less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The remainder of the paper is theoretical speculation about how a future GPS system might use relativity.  There is disagreement about how relativity might be used, as reflected by comments in the paper.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:05, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The remainder of the paper is about improvements to the GPS system.  The paper was published in '97.  In 2001, the system was updated.  With Block II GPS satelites, OCS was rewritten so that it doesn't require constant updates from ground stations to reset the clocks http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/mail/igsreport/1994/msg00146.html (example of clock reset for relativity prior to 2001).  Instead, now, accounting for relativity constantly the GPS satellites  are able to offer much more accurate positioning (this was required, as mentioned by the paper I previously linked, the 6 meter accuracy - it is now required by the 2001 performance standard http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/2001SPSPerformanceStandardFINAL.pdf (page 20 of the document, section 3.4) .  If you are willing to reset the clock periodically and accept errors between clock resets - then you can discount relativity.  If you want high accuracy all the time, you must take relativity into account between synchronizations. --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The remainder of the paper is about '''proposed''' improvements to the GPS system.  There is nothing indicating that those proposals were ever implemented.  So that paper strikes out as support for the claim that GPS relies on relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Now you're pointing me to a new paper.  I'll look at it in the morning but, as I said, pick your best one.  If this paper strikes out also then I'm unlikely to keep looking at more and more papers to explain why each one fails to support the claim.  Please provide your very best cite, as I requested before.  Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:07, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about [http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdf this one], written by [http://www.colorado.edu/physics/Web/directory/faculty/ashby_n.html Neil Ashby] for [http://www.physicstoday.org/ Physics Today], a major publication of the AIP.  Again, I quote from a portion, although the entire paper is about the issue in question:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;[B]efore the first GPS satellite was launched in 1977, although it was recognized that orbiting clocks would require such a relativistic offset, there was uncertainty as to its magnitude, and even its sign. So correcting frequency synthesizers were built into the clocks, spanning a large enough range around the nominal 10.23 MHz clock frequency to encompass all possibilities. After the satellite's cesium atomic clock was turned on, it was operated for three weeks to measure its rate. The frequency shift measured during this initial period was found to be 4.425 parts per ten billion, agreeing with the relativistic calculation to better than 1%.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::You've now been presented with many sources from Rutm and I supporting GR implementation in GPS, and you have yet to produce one source that says that GPS works on only classical principles.  Furthermore, I question your motivation in demanding one &amp;quot;best&amp;quot; source, since I anticipate that you will attempt to attack the &amp;quot;best source,&amp;quot; perhaps by invoking &amp;quot;liberal bias&amp;quot; (as if it existed in this case--either the clocks run at different frequencies or they don't), ignoring the vast consensus, and proclaim &amp;quot;victory.&amp;quot;--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 10:56, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: OK, I think I now (finally!) understand what's going on.  I think we have a misunderstanding here; we're talking about two different kinds of corrections.  The paper supplied by Rutm (and quoted in the current article) is discussing relativistic corrections to the frequency of signals measured by the receivers.  That paper is from the early 1990s, and at that time no relativistic corrections were performed for those signals (though  corrections might be taken into account now).  Throughout this discussion, I have been referring to the fact that clocks on GPS space vehicles have ALWAYS had built-in frequency offsets to account for the relativistic effects on moving clocks and clocks in gravitational potentials.  It's a question of corrections made to the '''communications''' between GPS components and the '''on-board clocks''' of the satellites; the former are not as important, while the latter are very important.  Any problems with inserting this nuance into the article?--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 19:14, 27 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, that GPS quote is extremely misleading. It implies that the relativistic effects are too small to be significant. But the rest of the paragraph explains that relativistic corrections are necessary to meet the accuracy requirements of most users. The article is incorrect when it states, &amp;quot;Predictions of relativity have not historically been used to make the Global Positioning System (GPS) function properly.&amp;quot; Relativity  has in fact been used, and programmed into satellites and receivers. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 11:48, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:That's simply not true.  GPS adjustments have been based on observation, not theoretical prediction.  Effects predicted by relativity are offsetting to each other and the experts could not even agree in which direction the small net effect would be.&lt;br /&gt;
:This is a matter of historical fact and it's astonishing that the demands to rewrite history about this are so persistent.  The quote confirms the obvious:  GPS adjustments are based on observation, not theoretical prediction.&lt;br /&gt;
:For those who claim to have such a thorough understanding of GPS here, how about answering the question below:  does Newtonian mechanics predict any divergence in the clocks from the satellite compared to ground?  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:31, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, the fact is that the GPS satellites have operated both with and without the relativistic corrections. The cited articles confirm that. You are completely wrong to say that relativistic corrections have not been used.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The relativistic corrections partially offset each other, but not entirely, and they are big enough to affect accuracy in a typical consumer GPS unit. It is also false to say that there is disagreement among physicists on the point. &lt;br /&gt;
:: If you were right, then find an article that supports what you say. That paragraph you quote ends with &amp;quot;large enough to make it necessary to correct the formulas of classical physics.&amp;quot; Include that, and give the date on the article. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:09, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:The article first states the obvious: GPS is not designed using the theory of relativity.  Then the article discusses an ongoing and unresolved dispute about exactly what the theory of relativity does predict for the numerous factors involved in the GPS system, and makes its own unverified claims.  Relativity predicts time differences going in both directions, and there are issues about what the inertial frame should be.  One article cited earlier, which I will try to find and reinsert, states that Lorentzian (not Special) Relativity generally matches observations best.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:GPS was built by engineers and there is no reason for them to rely on the theory of relativity.  It is far simpler and more reliable simply to observe the time differences.  Engineers don't study the theory of relativity, and if you think a physicist well-versed in the theory of relativity provided essential predictions for the GPS engineers, then who was he?  Give us his name and he we can simply ask him.  Was he nominated for a Nobel prize?  Surely he would have at least published a paper about his work.  Where is it????&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:And where is the answer to the question as to whether Newtonian mechanics predicts time difference in the GPS system also?  After all, if someone is going to claim that GPS confirms the superiority of relativity to Newtonian mechanics, then surely he must first make a statement about whether Newtonian mechanics predicts a time difference.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:56, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: What you say is just not true. GPS was designed with an understanding of the magnitude of the relativistic effects. The effects are well-understood, and no one was nominated for a Nobel prize for predicting the effects. Yes, there were engineers who didn't study relativity and didn't think that relativistic effects would be significant. They have been proven wrong. There are no unresolved disputes. You have been given several references that tell the story. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:41, 29 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: To sum:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*** no physicists have been identified who supposedly incorporated relativity into the GPS design&lt;br /&gt;
*** no papers exist describing how relativity *was* (not &amp;quot;might be&amp;quot;) used in GPS&lt;br /&gt;
*** references that have been provided describe disagreements among physicists about the relativistic predictions for GPS&lt;br /&gt;
*** those claiming that GPS confirms relativity compared to Newtonian mechanics don't know whether Newtonian mechanics also predicts time differences, which renders the comparison pointless.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I realize that historical revisionism is common in many areas, but I would hope that science would adhere to a higher standard.  Sometimes, unfortunately, science seems be even more vulnerable to revisionism.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:04, 29 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I will respond to this post below, under &amp;quot;Question about GPS&amp;quot;--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 13:55, 30 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: As Bayes explains, the papers do say that relativity was used in GPS. Just what is the disagreement among physicists? I didn't see any in your references. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:43, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: No, none of the papers state that a physicist or group of physicists provided the complex relativistic predictions and that those predictions were incorporated into a particular GPS system.  Engineers don't study relativity, and if physicists provided these predictions to a GPS system then there would be (a) names of physicists, (b) dates of incorporation, and (c) adjustments based on results.  None of this happened.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The claim that relativistic predictions were actually used in an actual GPS system wouldn't last 5 minutes on a witness stand at trial.  It's pure fiction.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:20, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Theory of Relativity (moved from [[User talk:Aschlafly]]) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I found it offensive that you labelled my edit a &amp;quot;liberal edit&amp;quot;. I was not aware of the Corpuscular Theory of Light, and therefore I did not know what &amp;quot;Newton's theory&amp;quot; in that sentence was referring to. Since there was no link (as there is now) to a page which shows Einstein's formula being two times more than his previous one, which was stated to be same as Newton's, I changed the sentence to the best of my knowledge - that light was viewed as a wave through ether at Newton's time, and therefore his theory of gravity does not apply.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How my mistake is a &amp;quot;liberal edit&amp;quot; is beyond me.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:ATang|ATang]] 09:47, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Please accept my apologies.  By way of explanation, not as justification, liberals love relativism and their spin on the theory of relativity, and exaggerate everything associated with it.  Claiming that relativity predicts the bending of light while Newton did not is one of those exaggerations.  A simple search on the internet before deleting something here is always advisable, and that simple search reveals how Newton's theory predicts the bending of light too (though not by as much).  I think this Newtonian prediction is in high school physics problem books, so it is not obscure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Regardless, thanks for your efforts and I look forward to more additions by you here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:43, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'll search the internet before making changes next time. [[User:ATang|ATang]] 14:04, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ashlafly, I am concerned about the overall tone of the [[relativity]] article.  Some statements suggest the presence of an anti-relativity agenda.  Am I correct in guessing that this stance is due to a perceived link between moral relativism, the Democratic party, and the scientific concept of relativity?  If so, I'd like to point out that while scientific funding by the government is certainly a political issue, actual scientific research is a separate issue and is independent of political leanings.  The outcome of a proper experiment does not depend on whether the scientists conducting it are conservative or liberal. You are indeed justified if you are objecting to overzealous extrapolations based on scientific findings (such as moral relativism being based on scientific relativity), but such extrapolations have absolutely nothing to do with the scientific findings themselves.  IMHO, encyclopedic articles on the scientific concept of relativity should stick to the science and not go into philosophy or politics.  Furthermore, criticism of concepts such as moral relativism should be concerned with the merits (or lack thereof) of the concepts themselves, not on sound science that has nothing to do with it.  Attempts to discredit relativity because of perceived links to philosohical or political positions that one disagrees with are not scientific, and fly in the face of undeniable experimental verification, basic facts (like how GPS satellite clocks function) and essentially universal acceptance of at least the basic principles.  If you would like to incorporate some of the material on the current relativity page into a separate article, such as [[Historical views of relativity]], a personal essay, or something similar, then I would be all for it.  I have not yet edited the relativity article heavily, but please see [[Talk:Theory of relativity]] for some of my specific conerns.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 17:56, 26 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I have already responded to this above.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Question about GPS ==&lt;br /&gt;
Does Newtonian mechanics predict that clocks on GPS satellites will diverge from clocks on earth?  That is not an easy question to answer.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 28 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:As far as I'm aware, no. It's relativity that predicts that there will be a divergence in time, for reasons already discussed. However, I want to throw in: both of you aruging about whether GPS satellites use relativity are correct in certain ways. Andy, you're correct that there is no actual use of relativity on the circuits on board the satellite. For those arguing that relativity is used, you're correct too; based on predictions from both general and special relativity, the clocks on the satellites are fine tuned with an offset to minimize the nano-second order deviations from clocks on the ground. Then, for practical purposes, newtonian based approximations are acceptable accuracy-wise. [[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 14:08, 30 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Mr. Schlafly, I apologize for not responding more quickly.  Newtonian mechanics cannot account for the observed divergence in clock rates.  Classically, inertial reference frames are related by [[Galilean transformations]]:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: x' = x + vt&lt;br /&gt;
:: t' = t&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: where x and x' are positions in the rest and moving frame, respectively&lt;br /&gt;
:: t and t' are times in the rest and moving frame, respectively&lt;br /&gt;
:: v is the velocity of the moving frame relative to the rest frame.  Note that frame labels like &amp;quot;rest&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;moving&amp;quot; are arbitrary.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: According to those transformations, time in all inertial frames is the same (t' = t), and therefore no time dilation is predicted.  However, the Lorentz transformations that relate inertial frames according to special relativity DO predict time dilation.  So that would allow for corrections based on the relative speeds of the satellites.  However, you could reconcile the time difference using classical mechanics IF you assert that the speed of light in the moving frame is different from the speed of light in the rest frame; that would essentially mean that the satellites are measuring a different light speed than the earth is.  Such assertions would conflict with experimental evidence.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Another, more significant time dilation effect is due to gravitational time dilation, predicted by general relativity, which is dependent on the curvature of spacetime.  Newtonian gravity incorporates an &amp;quot;action at a distance&amp;quot; principle and does not incorporate spacetime curvature, and therefore predicts no gravitational time dilation.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Also, your statement that no sources have been provided showing that corrections for relativistic effects were historically incorporated is incorrect, as I have twice quoted from a Physics Today article (see above) showing that devices allowing for such corrections to clock frequencies were used when the satellites were first launched.  I'm still convinced we have a misunderstanding; the satellite clock frequencies have used and do need relativistic corrections, but once those corrections are implemented, Newtonian physics works fine for communication and position calculations (although some sources seem to indicate that may not be true for fast-moving objects, like jets and so forth).  However, you have successfully convinced me that there is something of a political element in some areas of science :)--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 14:40, 30 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Bayes, it's wrong to assert that Newtonian mechanics does not predict time differences in GPS clocks.  You can't build a clock that would be uneffected by acceleration under Newtonian mechanics.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Let's be frank for a moment.  It's absurd to insist that an experiment proves theory A is superior to theory B when there is no understanding of what theory B even says about the experiment.  Theory A may indeed be better than theory B, but superiority is not demonstrated by that experiment.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:26, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You got a physics paper saying that relativity explains the GPS clock differences to within 1%. There is no Newtonian explanation for the differences. Just give the fact, and let the reader decide which theory is superior. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:48, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The paper does not demonstrate that relativity predictions were incorporated into GPS.  No paper demonstrates that.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: A few (not many) papers claim that observed GPS clock differences can be explained by relativity.  That is a very different claim, and requires examining carefully the assumptions made in the calculations to justify a claim that the theory matches an observed result.  It also requires comparing the calculations to Newtonian calculations, which the papers utterly fail to do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:35, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Yes, of course those papers compare to Newtonian calculations. That is why they are called &amp;quot;GPS clock differences&amp;quot;. They are the differences between the relativistic and Newtonian calculations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 21:27, 31 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: No they don't.  Those few papers attempting to match relativity theory with GPS clock results all implicitly assume that the effects on the accelerated clocks from Newtonian mechanics are zero.  That is likely wrong.  And that explains why there are so few papers and so few physicists who claim personally to have confirmed GPS results with relativity theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: If GPS results really did confirm relativity theory, then this would be in textbooks and classroom assignments.  It isn't.  Only a few obscure physicists even make the claim asserted here, and because they implicitly make the assumption that Newtonian effects are zero, their claims are not credible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:00, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Yes, of course the Newtonian effect on time are zero. What are you suggesting -- that some unknown Newtonian effect might predict a GPS clock difference that just happens to match the relativistic calculation? The fact remains that the GPS clock differences are predicted by relativity, and not by any other theory. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 00:53, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: There is a Newtonian effect on the clocks.  Yet this was not even addressed by a few obscure physicists who claim to derive, using relativity while disagreeing with other experts, the exact same result as the observed GPS time differences.  This omission hardly inspires confidence in their unverified work.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:58, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: It wasn't addressed because it doesn't exist. Do you have any reliable source that says that a Newtonian effect can explain the observed GPS time differences? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:13, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: And if there is no such paper, then the relativity claim about GPS must be true???  No, the relativity claim about GPS needs to stand on far better logic than that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: In fact, the few papers claiming relatitivy is confirmed by GPS, written by obscure physicists, overlooked the Newtonian effects on the clocks.  If you think you can build a clock immune from Newtonian effects, then patent it immediately.  Can't be done.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:49, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;----&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Please identify the calculations that predict a difference in time. Bayes has already shown that time in all inertial reference frames is equal and identified how he derived this statement, so there's obviously something we're missing. '''[[User:Stryker|ΨtrykeЯ]]'''&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;small&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:Stryker| eh?&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:57, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Andy, if there is no paper saying that a Newtonian effect can explain the observed GPS time differences, then it is correct to say that relativity provides the only known explanation for those differences. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:40, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: No, we shouldn't accept the equivalent of &amp;quot;relative proof.&amp;quot;  Just because a flawed proof or claim is better than other flawed proofs or claims does not mean it is acceptable.  Would any mathematician embrace a flawed proof because it is better than other flawed attempts to prove the same theorem?  I don't think so.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:32, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If you don't want to call it a &amp;quot;relative proof&amp;quot;, that's fine with me. I am just correcting errors. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:06, 1 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Here are the facts:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*GPS satellite clocks have mechanisms to correct for frequency offsets caused by time dilation.  I don't see how this can be disputed, unless you want to stubbornly deny that such devices exist, in which case you can claim that cars don't have engines.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: It hasn't been proven that the frequency offsets are due to &amp;quot;time dilation.&amp;quot;  Instead, you assume what you claim to prove.  Your logic is circular.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Newtonian mechanics does not predict ANY time dilation because it regards time as absolute, even in accelerating frames. Again, I don't see how this can be reasonably disputed, outside of winning a Nobel Prize.  There are no reputable sources that predict Newtonian time dilation because there is no Newtonian time dilation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: No one said that Newtonian mechanics does predict time dilation.  This is a strawman argument.  What is true is that Newtonian mechanics effects the operation of clocks in accelerating frames.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*Relativity does predict time dilation.  All reputable physicists (not just a few obscure ones) can attest to that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: OK, this is true, but purely theoretical.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*The predictions of relativity are in good agreement with the frequency offsets on GPS satellite clocks.  Several papers on the topic have been cited on this page.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: A few papers by obscure physicists have made this claim, but these papers raise questions like disagreements among relativists and a failure to address Newtonian effects on the clocks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::If you want to flat-out deny the above, then I guess I shouldn't waste my time trying to improve the article.  I'll also point out that some significant creationist ideas depend on relativity to explain the starlight problem (God creating the Earth inside a massive gravitational field), so it's not an amoral atheist conspiracy.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 14:57, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Relativists love to exaggerate relativity.  Earlier, someone here claimed (based on what he had been taught by relativists) that only relativity predicts the bending of light from gravity.  Wrong again.  Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:06, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;---&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You state, ''&amp;quot;No one said that Newtonian mechanics does predict time dilation...What is true is that Newtonian mechanics effects [sic] the operation of clocks in accelerating frames.&amp;quot;''  Those sentences are contradictory.  Newtonian mechanics does NOT predict any difference in the operation of clocks.  Furthermore, what do the frequency offsets do if they don't compensate for time dilation??  Are they decorative??  Clock frequencies have to be adjusted ''because the clocks run at different rates''. And whatever extrapolations &amp;quot;relativists&amp;quot; come up with have nothing to do with the science.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 15:36, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yes, that's correct. If you wanted to make an anti-relativity statement, I think that here is the most that you could say correctly is this:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* GPS does not prove relativity, in the sense that no experiment ever proves a theory. There is always the possibility that someone will come along later with a better explanation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Being able to calculate the relativistic corrections is not truly essential to making GPS work. Nowadays the satellite clocks are synchronized so frequently that predicting the clock drift is not necessary. If relativity were never discovered, then the satellite corrections could be made without anyone realizing that the system was just adding relativistic corrections. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:02, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::RSchlafly, although I disagree with your decision to remove some of the discussion here, I agree with your position.  My only issue is that your second bullet still leaves open the question of why the clocks drift, or why they need to be synchronized often, and implies that we don't have a good explanation.  However, we do have a pretty good explanation--relativity can predict such discrepancy to high precision.  If GPS is mentioned in the article, I would prefer that we insert language similar to &amp;quot;Clocks on board GPS satellites require adjustments to their clock frequencies if they are to be synchronized with those on the surface of the Earth.  Currently, relativity provides the best explanation for such adjustments (insert refs)&amp;quot;  Does that sound any better?  I'm open other suggestions.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 16:28, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't know what you mean about my &amp;quot;decision to remove some of the discussion here&amp;quot;. What discussion did I remove? I did want to remove the 1996 quote because it is out-of-date and out-of-context. Anyway, I inserted your  proposed 2 sentences. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 19:01, 2 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I was referring to [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ATheory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=259155&amp;amp;oldid=259114 this edit]. Anyway, not that big of a deal now; I appreciate your attempt to fix the article, although those attempts have now been effectively neutered [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=next&amp;amp;oldid=259513] [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=next&amp;amp;oldid=259528].  The GPS section has now grown so large that it may now detract from learning about relativity.  I wonder if it is not better placed on the GPS article rather than this one.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 12:19, 3 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Sorry, I apparently accidentally lost some comments. I just tried to restore them. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:53, 3 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Skepticism==&lt;br /&gt;
Edits like [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_relativity&amp;amp;diff=259513&amp;amp;oldid=259511 this one] made in the last few days are again consistent with the overall skepticism for relativity present in the article.  The physicist in question is indeed involved in research into alternatives to general relativity.  He appears to support [http://ecolloq.gsfc.nasa.gov/archive/2001-Spring/announce.alley.html Yilmaz theory], which is not especially well-regarded by the scientific community [http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/ASGRG/ACGRG1/fackerell.html] [http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9504050].  Even if it turned out to be an improvement on GR, it would still predict time dilation and other relativity-esque things, so I don't see what would be gained by denying all of GR but then embracing Yilmaz theory.   GR is constantly being tested because a.) it is in conflict with quantum mechanics and b.) it is the current gold standard for theories of gravitation, and the limits of current gold standards are where new physics lie.  Physicists I know who are doing research on alternative theories of gravitation teach classes on relativity, and emphasize its success; they aren't &amp;quot;skeptics&amp;quot; who want to throw it in the trash.  Improvements on GR are likely to include GR as an approximation, as Newtonian mechanics is an approximation to GR.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Relativity is the current best idea we have to explain a lot of things and works to within experimental uncertainty for all tests of it performed so far.  This article should reflect that success instead of embarking on a misguided ideological quest to discredit it in favor of Newtonian mechanics, which is known to have limits.  And what I've said applies to GR; SR is even more established.  Aschlafly, your problem with relativity appears to be that it is called &amp;quot;relativity&amp;quot; which you believe allows it to somehow be associated with moral relativism.  Would your objections still hold if it were named &amp;quot;Reference Frame Theory&amp;quot;?  Please remove the skeptical claims, as their inclusion implies willful ignorance to anyone who visits this page.--[[User:Bayes|Bayes]] 20:37, 3 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Bayes, we're factual on this site.  Exaggerations about the theory of relativity or anything else are not allowed here.  For example, one editor here claimed that relativity predicts the bending of light but that Newtonian mechanics does not.  That is false.  Some of the claims here about GPS using relativity have also been false.  This isn't allowed in a credible encyclopedia.  Go to Wikipedia if you want to stretch or distort the truth to suit your personal views about what the facts should be.  Here we state what the facts are.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Similarly, we don't delete or censor factual scientific information here.  You recently deleted factual information without justification, and your deletion has been reverted.  Please abide by our [[rules]].  Thank you and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:21, 4 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Andy, I don't get the point of  your edits. Under Ostensible Paradoxes, you have a 2001 article that says &amp;quot;If confirmed, the finding could mean ...&amp;quot;. That was 6 years ago. Was it confirmed, or not? The following results are somewhat interesting, but obscure. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:14, 4 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Nasa on spacecraft and relativity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Three of the items found with a quick search:&lt;br /&gt;
* Cassini refines measurements of general relativity with its trip around the sun [http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press-releases-03/20031002-pr-a.cfm]&lt;br /&gt;
* Voyager 1's slingshot around Saturn showed frequency shifts in agreement with relativity [http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12517102.600-science-encounter-with-saturn-confirms-relativity-theory.html]&lt;br /&gt;
* Gravity Probe B is a satellite launched and demonstrates frame dragging and geodetic warping of space [http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html][http://einstein.stanford.edu/]&lt;br /&gt;
Given these examples, I believe the passage recently added:&lt;br /&gt;
:In addition to GPS discussed above, NASA has launched numerous space probes and missions, but none of them have ever used the theory of relativity in their timing mechanisms even though they experience much weaker gravitational fields in space.&lt;br /&gt;
is inappropriate and misleading. Even if the space craft where not ''designed'' with relativity in mind (the Gravity Probe B certainly was designed with it in mind), Voyager and Cassini and others demonstrated the effects of relativity as they dipped into gravity wells and out of them with the frequency of the signal being sent to Earth.  --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 12:47, 5 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: The current statement is correct in the entry and we do not delete correct, educational information here.  You cite some interesting articles which could also be added if they are given detail and explanation suitable for a high-quality encyclopedia.  I took a quick look at your articles and they seem to be designed for public consumption, lacking satisfactory detail of a scientific level.  But feel free to add a paragraph '''without exaggeration''' that explains clearly what you think these experiments demonstrate.  In Christ,--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:55, 5 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reversion explained ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The [[libera]] edits and censorship have been reverted. This is not [[Wikipedia]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:04, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not trying to be liberal or censor, but I doubt anyone thought any less of Dicke due to his support of Brans-Dicke - which is merely the addition of a scalar field to the tensor of GR - in fact, all of einsteinan GR is viable under Brans-Dicke - if the scalar field is set to null - the difference is the allowable effect of long-distance large masses that is not rsquared. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 15:16, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Um... this is supposed to be targetted towards high school students.  Your really doing nothing but babbling to me, because I don't understand what you're talking about. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 20:04, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I made a change that was first related.  Even by the methods that science uses to deny christian beliefs they both fail.  Putting it that way is a little stronger, as well as more accurate.  It's kind of hard to say that &amp;quot;string theory&amp;quot; has been a failure when just about every physicist who wants to work these days needs to learn and be productive in it.  It's just entirely &amp;quot;thought experiments&amp;quot; though, and quirking math to make it fit. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 20:02, 17 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If this article is directed at high school students, Dicke would not be mentioned, as his contribution to the theory of relativity was limited. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 09:11, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:His importance to this article for Conservapedia is that he believed in something other than General Relativity, and although very intelligent, never received a Nobel Prize for any of his findings.  The point being made is that if you disagree with GR, that you won't get a Nobel Prize. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 14:13, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Why you would disagree with GR is beyond me, but… --[[User:SimonA|SimonA]] 14:16, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Whether or not I disagree with GR is irrelevant.  This wiki has a goal and purpose, and you need speak toward that audience.  The intention of this article is to question and critique GR, not to assume that it is automatically true. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 14:21, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::You realize that what [[User:PhysicsNut|PhysicsNut]] was explaining - as I understood it - was that Dicke ''didn't'' really believe in something other than General Relativity? All that &amp;quot;babbling&amp;quot; was describing why Brans-Dicke theory differs little from GR (PhysicsNut, feel free to correct me on this). [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 15:19, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: That's correct. Brans-Dicke with Omega approaching infinity is General Relativity per Einstein. At no point did Dicke doubt that matter bent space-time. He merely postulated that there was another effect of matter that was not an r-squared effect. He didn't win the Nobel because someone else heard the CBR first - Dicke was just the one who realized it was proof-positive of the Big Bang. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 16:44, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: It's bias to insist on describing theories that compete with relativity in terms of relativity.  Also, the explanation for why Dicke, one of the finest physicists of the 20th century responsible for ''multiple breakthroughs'', did not win a [[Nobel Prize]] is not as plausible as the reason given.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Says who? Don't we need &amp;quot;authoritive sources for all the changes you want to make,&amp;quot; or is your insinuation that Professor Dicke (who proved the Big Bang as his most notable breakthrough) was a young-earth creationist enough?  [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 20:04, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This article is an embarrassment. Whatever - this project is obviously doomed. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 21:05, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your attitude is completely unhelpful. You should not continue to post. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 21:21, 18 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Maybe so, Puellanivis, but still, try not to write off editors so quickly! [[User:Physicsnut|Phyiscsnut]] is only new here, and may not have understood how [[Conservapedia]] differs from [[Wikipedia]] or other [[MSM]] outlets. Many editors have moved beyond initial misunderstandings to find ways to contribute positively to Conservapedia, despite ideological differences - so you needn't necessarily drive them off right away. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 00:06, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I don't why there are so many edits to the content page here, and I'll have to sort through them again.  Relativity is a magnet for [[liberal bias]], but we're not going to allow such bias here.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:21, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Feebasfactor, your point is very well received.  I definitely agree with your point.  But people will not get anywhere without discussing and considering.  If they express an attitude that this site will never be helpful if it rejects their viewpoint, then that's just silly.  Aschlafly, I believe I had cleared it up fairly well with my last revert, but please feel free to review it. I think it attracts so much liberal bias, because they feel like it's home turf, or something, and get mad when anyone insults it.  I suppose it's kind of the same thing as the liberals insulting the Bible. It just evokes such a strong response, that liberals get stupid (more so) and don't stop think and consider. --[[User:Puellanivis|Puellanivis]] 00:27, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Insult relativity all you want. Insult the memory of Robert Dicke and you can rot. [[User:Physicsnut|Physicsnut]] 20:04, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Physicsnut, you're making no sense.  Please don't pollute our pages with namecalling nonsense.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:11, 19 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Nobel Prize Contradiction ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the beginning of the section Evidence for Relativity you state that, &amp;quot;There has been little recognition by the Nobel Prize committee of either theory of relativity, and particularly scant recognition of the Theory of General Relativity.&amp;quot; This is part of your reasoning as to why GR is not scientifically viable, yet in the section Philosophical Impact of Relativity you state that Robert Dicke is still a an accomplished physician despite his never being awarded any Nobel Prizes. Now it seems to me that if you wish to still credit Robert Dicke as an accomplished physician, which is certainly true, then it would seem only fair to leave out the comment about GR never gaining Nobel recognition. At least not in the context of trying to discredit it. You can't have it both ways. Either it's possible to be reliable and not gain Nobel recognition, or not gaining Nobel recognition speaks to the validity of the subject. One or the other; can't be both. --[[User:Aralith|Aralith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your logic is defective, because Robert Dicke (physicist, not a physician) was slighted due to bias ''in favor of the theory of relativity''.  That bias obviously does not explain the lack of Nobel Prizes for relativity.  It's the lack of evidence that is the reason there.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:10, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If the Theory of Relativity is so commonly accepted among physicists (meant to write that in the last post but the wrong word came out of my fingers) how could it be that the Theory of Relativity hasn't gained Nobel recognition, which is voted on by a commitee made up of the same scientists who support said theory unless it is possible for a subject (person, theory, etc.) to be extremely important but not Nobel Prize worthy? In which case it makes perfect logical sense that both Dicke and GR could be a great person/theory respectively but not gain recognition from the Nobel committee.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== legal right to abortion ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;For example, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama helped publish an article by liberal law professor Laurence Tribe to apply the relativistic concept of &amp;quot;curvature of space&amp;quot; to promote a broad legal right to abortion.[39]&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Unfortunately there is no link to the article in question. It would interest me much what the right to abortion has to do with the alleged curvature of space. Either the space is curved, or it isn't. Neither of both could ever affect my moral convictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{unsigned|Harald}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:This entire section is ridiculous and irrelevant. Clearly the curvature of spacetime was being referred to as a metaphor. [[User:Kristkrispies|Kristkrispies]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Please rewrite the section and/or move text to other articles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:01, 25 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Where is the reference to Obama helping publish the article? The current reference points to the JSTOR article abstract, which does not mention Obama's involvement whatsoever. [[User:ATang|ATang]] 15:33, 29 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Paradoxes?  Nobel Prize? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why are these things labeled as paradoxes?  The  rule is the speed of light IN A VACUUM is constant WITH RESPECT TO INERTIAL FRAME.  The variability of c (the speed of light) through a medium is accepted and irrelevant as far as SR is concerned.  That is due to the absorption and reemission of photons by atoms as light hits travels through glass (or air or fiber optics cable).  Similarly, relativity neither prohibits nor &amp;quot;encourages&amp;quot; a c that varies with the age of the universe.  Indeed, the nature of the constant is still a mystery, and it may indeed be dependent on some factors we are unaware of.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If anyone is confused, shoot me an email and I'll either give you a full explanation or point you in the direction of a good resource.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, there are several reasons Einstein never received a Nobel Prize for relativity:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-he recieved a prize for the photoelectric effect,which has laid the framework for quantum mechanics (arguably just as important).  They may have had qualms over giving two to the same person (they haven't done it yet).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-initially, there was some resistance against it by the old guard of physicists who had wasted their lives pursuing the alternative (and stupid) ether explanation for the nature of c.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-the Nobel committee favors ideas that have practical applications (hence no prize for mathematics), and at the time relativity had none.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
-as to why they haven't given him one recently...well, Einstein's dead, and they don't give prizes posthumously. (A sticking point, since the full significance of a theory might only be fully realized generations after its inception).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So saying the Nobel prize hasn't recognized Einstein for relativity is misleading and irrelevant.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And now I'm curious.  This article seems to have an anti-relativity bias.  Why is relativity unAmerican or unChristian (besides the fact that Einstein was a German Jew)?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And what's up with the Obama reference?  I don't think God asks politicians (liberal or conservative) for their opinions when he establishes His natural law. (unsigned by User:QED)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I looked at your edits for this and found them to be wanting.  The information on the Nobel committee is accurate.  It's a small part of the article and no specific conclusions are stated from it.  I can see why you would believe this is not a slight on relatively, nevertheless it is true as written.  In the absense of any counter evidence, such as writings by the Nobel committee explaining this, it should be allowed to stand.  Your other point is, temporarily, out of bounds.  You may believe that relativity allows for faster than light movement 'virtually', but unless you have a source, it's not going to be included.  In other words your conjecture is not going to trump a source that appears to take a neutral position.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Lastly, do not try to play the minority card again.  You aren't Johnny Cochran.  The article on Einstein is extensive and written with great respect.  I'm assuming you could already have checked it up to see the view on him at CP.  Consider this to be your one and only warning in this area. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 17:38, 29 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: User:  Learn together's analysis is superb.  The polemic comments above by QED seem to have little relation to the actual entry here, or to science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:13, 29 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Questions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The introduction refers to &amp;quot;a principle which led to the first theory&amp;quot;, but as far as I can see, there's no further reference to or explanation of this.  What is this referring to?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's been asked a couple of times above, but not answered as far as I can see:  What relevance does Obama's comment have in this article?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:54, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The reference to &amp;quot;principle&amp;quot; should be to postulates.  That's been fixed.  The reference to Obama is explained enough, don't you think?  It describes political support for the theory, and use (or misuse) of it for political gain.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:45, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: It hasn't been explained on this talk page at all.  Harald asked the question above, Kristkrispies added a criticism, and the only reply was from Ed Poor suggesting the section be rewritten. QED asked about it also, and the reply didn't address that point.&lt;br /&gt;
:: However, rereading the footnote (or did I miss that before?), I can see a very tenuous connection, but not one that warrants it being included in this article.  I suggest it be removed.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 19:44, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Philip, I'm assuming you're referring to the Obama reference.  The heading explains it.  Political insights are a key part of this site, and explaining [[political benefit]] to something is essential to understanding why it is emphasized and/or misrepresented.  The [[theory of relativity]] is used, or misused, to advance [[liberal]] goals, and the Obama reference is an important illustration of that.  Would you like to see more examples?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:16, 31 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Yes, I was referring to the Obama reference.  Not, it's actually the opposite of the heading, because it is (mis)using relativity (physics) to support something political, not political support of relativity which is what the heading refers to.  And as such, it's only of marginal if any real relevance to an article about relativity.  I guess, though, I can see ''some'' point in it.  That is, it's like an article about [[comet]]s mentioning that there was a musical group named [[The Comets]]; a bit of barely-related trivia, but the sort of thing that Wikipedia and Conservapedia sometimes do (often under the heading of &amp;quot;cultural references&amp;quot;).  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 02:10, 1 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== My edits ==&lt;br /&gt;
I added a bit more information in the introduction to general relativity, because, as written, the article didn't really explain what the idea behind general relativity was. I don't think the edit is perfect, so people are free to tweak it or add more.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 13:12, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also deleted &amp;quot;at infinite speed&amp;quot; from the sentence that said in classical physics light travels at infinite speed in a straight line. In classical physics, light still travels at c (approx 300,000 km/s), as Maxwell or any book on electrodynamics can tell you. In fact, it was this very observation that got people all caught up in the ether theory, because Maxwell's equations made direct reference to the speed of light. Consequently, people assumed that the equations had to be referring to the speed of light with respect to some fixed medium, i.e., the ether. Of course, we all know how well that theory worked out.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 13:21, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the sentence about the Nobel prize committee not recognizing SR/GR in the evidence for SR/GR section. Mostly, the sentence just seems out of place with the rest of the section. Also, the reference provided was just a link to the Nobel committee homepage.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 13:49, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I removed the last section: time dilation and creation science. If we start including every crackpot scientific theory ever proposed, this page is going to become enormous.--[[User:Mathoreilly|Mathoreilly]] 14:00, 1 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see you are not around to respond, but including the latest creationary thinking doesn't mean that crackpot theories will be included.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:01, 16 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== New Edits, Proposed edits ==&lt;br /&gt;
This article needs some major work, and I don't mind diving in and trying to correct some things.  I added something on the equivalence principle because the existing information about general relativity was mostly mathematical with no physical insight.  I'll try to clean up more when I have more time. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also corrected a mistake about force defined in special relativity.  The way it was written it wasn't defining a vector.  --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further, I would really like to clean up the experimental evidence section, but there appears to be some contention regarding GPS, so I thought I'd discuss it with other editors here.  The GPS definately DOES include some relativistic corrections.  Consider the 1996 paper referenced in the article, on page 193 of the journal, page 5 of the article the authors tell us  &amp;quot;The GPS operational control system corrects the pseudoranges measured by its monitor stations for the sum of the gravitational and velocity effects.&amp;quot;  What the article discusses is that the corrections are merely the average corrections, not the full specific velocity/gravitational effects.  The article is being used misleadingly to make an unsupported claim.  If no one objects in a day or two, I'll make the changes. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'd also like to remove the stress on Dicke's theory, as Dicke's theory is basically just an extension of GR. Dicke's theory is still a metric theory of gravity involving curved space time, so most of the discussion of GR should be applicable to Dicke's theory.  Dicke's theory should probably be included in another article.  Also, the contention that Dicke didn't get a nobel because he proposed an alternative theory needs some supporting information or a citation or I think it should be removed.  Again, if no one objects, I'll make the change. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also plan, given time, to give a more &amp;quot;layman&amp;quot; style description of GR following my brief discussion on the equivalence principle.  For students, diving straight into tensors, geodesics and field equations will most likely obscure the physics. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Einstein's Cross/Ring and Gravitational Lensing==&lt;br /&gt;
I think it'd useful to have a picture of gravitational lensing in the proof section.  As I'm not an admin, I can't upload it.  There's the picture found on wikipedia which is known as &amp;quot;Einstein's Cross,&amp;quot; but there are plenty of other examples of gravitational lensing that can be found in the public domain: [http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/search.php?words=lens&amp;amp;x=0&amp;amp;y=0&amp;amp;method=and&amp;amp;format=normal&amp;amp;sort=score&amp;amp;config=picturealbum&amp;amp;restrict=entire_collection%2Fpr&amp;amp;exclude=].  I suggest picking a nice looking one and displaying it.  I'm personally partial to the double ring found here: [http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/pr2008004a/]. [[User:ArnoldFriend|ArnoldFriend]] 20:43, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The images don't add anything new of substantive value.  What's really needed here is more explanation about whether twice as much bending of light by relativity is really predicted and shown, compared to the prediction of bending of light by Newton's theory.  Most people are misled to think that Newton's theory does not predict the bending of light, when it does.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:53, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: I tried to edit, read it over, reverted it as it wasn't making sense.  However, I think there should be something about photons being able to move at speeds other than c in the bit about Newtonian lensing.  My phrasing was really poor, thus the self-revert.  I may take another crack at this later when I can get the words right.--[[User:ArnoldFriend|ArnoldFriend]] 21:22, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The bending of light in Newtonian physics is not a trivial issue.  The mass can approach zero and it still bends, for example.  How much it bends is debatable, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:35, 19 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Do you think it'd be a good idea to create a page about the bending of light under Newtonian Dynamics?  Most people don't know about this and I think an explanation that's less technical than the linked source might help. [[User:ArnoldFriend|ArnoldFriend]] 15:07, 22 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Science And Math Facts That Prove Einstein's Blatant Error In His Relativity Theory  ==&lt;br /&gt;
With all due respect, but with regard to truth in real science, my writing here is to provide undeniable mathematical and science fact that special relativity is false science.&lt;br /&gt;
For information this math proof was written on Wikipedia about two years ago and they squelched the truth in science by a vote of 8 to 1, and even though a supposed expert in relativity wrote that the math proofs did in fact prove relativity to be totally wrong, in the end he chose to live a lie and to squelch the truth.&lt;br /&gt;
In the end you can also squelch truth in real science by determining that truth by the undeniable science and math facts written here or to live according to truth. Either is your choice but squelching will only suppress science facts and true science. So I am going to write the science and math that shows undeniable truth and you can decide. [[User:StevenCrum|StevenCrum]] 16:31, 31 October 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:A section on &amp;quot;critiques of Einsteinian relativity&amp;quot; would be good. Do you remember the name of the expert? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:58, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== More regarding the criticism of LIGO ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a student of physics, I feel myself almost obliged to add something to the discussion regarding LIGO, particularly as I work for a Professor that is part of the LIGO collaboration and have actually attended scientific conferences where the subject is addressed (though to be fair my work with her specifically deals with another one of her collaborations, Borexino). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, as mentioned in previous discussion, it is indeed true that it was understood that LIGO, like many scientific undertakings, would need to be refined and calibrated before reaching its design sensitivity. To claim the LIGO is a failure before it has reached its design sensitivity is just as ridiculous and ignorant as criticizing any other tool or piece of equipment for not functioning before it is properly calibrated. It isn't like the LIGO collaboration is trying to pull any fast ones on anyone by being secretive about this - just do a Google search for LIGO to bring up their web page, where they discuss the details of this matter.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Secondly, it is true that the &amp;quot;success&amp;quot; of the experiment cannot be known prior to its being conducted, but if it could, what would be the point in conducting the experiment in the first place? Experimentation is a necessary aspect of science because scientific investigation fundamentally deals with the discovery of knowledge not previously known to us, and because it is not known to us, even its ultimate usefulness cannot be known a priori. The rate of observed events under the initial design sensitivity is predicted to be very low, so it would not be very surprising if we did not observe anything until advanced LIGO debuts. Even still, there is a fundamental uncertainty in the rate of events that will be seen. Maxwell was once asked what the usefulness of electromagnetism could ever be, to which he replied &amp;quot;What good is a newborn baby?&amp;quot; I do not believe I need to highlight the usefulness of electromagnetism in the modern world.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which brings me to my third point, which is the enormous significance LIGO holds in terms of scientific potential. If LIGO is successful, it will revolutionize modern day astronomy by providing a new method for detecting cosmological phenomena. Gravitational radiation would offer another method of &amp;quot;imaging&amp;quot; the heavens, independent of electromagnetic radiation. To say that LIGO would have limited scientific benefit would be a serious rebuke to the field of astronomy in general. Optical astronomy would be coupled with gravitational astronomy as a valuable check on astronomical results attained by optical methods alone. But of course, the fundamental uncertainty we have as to what the observed rate of events will be reflects the fact that we do not know with complete certainty what cosmological objects exist, hence the very reason that LIGO would be useful.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even more revolutionary would be if LIGO failed to detect gravitational waves. If you only assume the existence of a gravitational field, and that disturbances in that field cannot propagate faster than the speed of light, then by the very definition of wavelike phenomena, you have gravitational waves. Gravitational radiation is a prediction of General Relativity, and as such, were it to be disproved, it would falsify a prediction of a scientific theory. To say that this is not valuable would be to suggest that, for example, Michelson's experiments in search of the aether were not valuable, whereas in reality they gave supporting evidence to the idea that there is indeed no aether. At the very least, the experiment should be able to place certain restrictions on the rate of observed events. If gravitational radiation were not found, and this represented a serious contradiction with the rate of events predicted, it would be ABSOLUTELY ENORMOUS in terms of scientific relevance, and I cannot stress that enough. Something huge, somewhere in our understanding of the world, would have to be revised, be it the idea of the gravitational field, causality itself, etc. As a practicing scientist, I would almost hope that LIGO fails to see gravitational radiation, just because the scientific implications would be so unimaginably radical and weird, and force us to completely reexamine how we perceive the universe. But this subject could be argued until it reaches the realm of some very deep scientific philosophy - scientific theory is generally not viewed as being &amp;quot;completely true&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;completely wrong,&amp;quot; but as a method of predicting physical phenomena, which eventually is replaced with a more accurate theory. Newtonian mechanics is not so much wrong, as it is not a good enough approximation in certain specific applications. If you want a metaphor, think about scientific progress as continuing to improve our Taylor expansion of the universe.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Though I suspect given the general tone of this article, somehow the death of GR would also please most of the contributors to this encyclopedia, as if General Relativity, a scientific theory, is somehow inherently a &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; idea. I'm sure that when Einstein formulated it, he envisioned it being used by Barack Obama to support a woman's legal right to terminate her pregnancy. Though, I hope for the sake of those contributors that General Relativity is either disproved, or is shown to be a &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; idea, because if it does adequately describe our universe, is a &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; idea, and God created the universe, then either God is a liberal, or he has a very weird sense of humo(u)r.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just to get this nonsense out of the way now, I'm a registered independent. I vote, based on all of the relevant information I have been able to attain via what I believe to be credible sources, for whoever I honestly believe will be able to fulfill the duties of the office they seek, and I don't think anyone can ask any more of me than that. If any of this leads some of you to believe that I am incapable of discussing the theory of General Relativity, then I surely and sincerely have nothing but pity for you. --kfratus&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: What are you talking about? The article has only one simple sentence about LIGO. Is that sentence correct or not? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 13:13, 23 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: First, if you'll take a closer look at the talk page, you'll notice that there has been a good amount of discussion of the usefulness of LIGO, and that was what I was principally referencing. Secondly, the article in reality contains three sentences that in some way reference LIGO, albeit only one of them by name. The last sentence specifically mentions LIGO, the second sentence is clearly directly referencing LIGO without naming it, and the first claims that research involving the theory of relativity receives a disproportionate amount of funding. I would regard the first of those sentences as a matter of scientific opinion, which I addressed in my comments by pointing out how much impact LIGO could have on the entire astronomy community. The second and third sentences may not be incorrect, so much as they are worded as half truths. LIGO has been unsuccessful, or has failed, to detect graitational waves so far. To assert that LIGO has been unsuccessful in general would be entirely untrue, and is completely dependent on your notion of the &amp;quot;success&amp;quot; of the experiment, which I also addressed - LIGO has indeed managed to reach its target sensitivity, and whether or not they manage to detect gravitational waves, their results will still have a huge impact on the field of physics, which I would consider a successful experiment. --kfratus&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Hopefully, when LIGO disproves so-called &amp;quot;[http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=gravity+waves gravity waves]&amp;quot;, a relativist working on the project will be honest enough to call LIGO what it is. In this way, LIGO may end up being a very, very expensive way of '''disproving''' relativity, once and for all.&lt;br /&gt;
:::I doubt it, though, with all that grant money on the line. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 23:35, 26 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Maybe it is unfair to say that LIGO has been unsuccessful. But what about Gravity Probe B? That experiment seemed like a big expensive flop to me. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:26, 27 March 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::I just want to make sure that the people here criticizing LIGO understand that the frequency range of the gravitational waves it was built to detect predict a variations in spacetime by only a factor of 10^-21.  LIGO's longest vacuum tubes are 4km long.  So physicists are attempting to measure a change in length approximately 1/2500th the diameter of an atomic nucleus.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Yes, that is why some people predicted that LIGO would fail. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:58, 7 April 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And to the poster who linked to youtube video of &amp;quot;gravity waves&amp;quot;.  Those ARE NOT gravity waves.  Those are clouds.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::As a passer-by stumbling upon your conversation, I never really meant to end up leaving this many posts, and I apologize if I'm violating your 90/10 rule, or anything like that. But I just wanted to clarify something that I see come up very often. I frequently run into people who have this impression that all scientists are members of some secret organization that is trying to hold knowledge from the public, and that they have their own personal reasons for trying to manipulate the body of scientific knowledge. While I cannot speak for all scientists, any of the ones that I have ever met (myself included), would be absolutely more than happy to welcome more people to our field of study. Most physicists I have met enjoy what they do, and would be very willing to pass their knowledge onto others (and one would have to admit that if we were somehow manipulating the entire body of public knowledge, we'd have to be doing a pretty good job of keeping every single scientist in the entire world quiet about the real truth - not very practical). And with respect to the comments made by BHarlan, I can assure you that most scientists would actually LOVE to disprove general relativity. In many cases, scientists are not famous because they confirm the prediction of a theory, but because they disprove one, thereby radically changing what we know about the world around us. The reason Einstein was so famous was because he disproved the Newtonian picture of the universe, not because he confirmed some prediction of it. But this is just like any other profession - think about it, if a rival of yours was successful in some way, wouldn't you be just dieing to somehow prove them wrong and rub it in their face? Scientists are people too, subject to the same personality traits as everyone else. This is why most physicists feel relatively comfortable with the scientific process - they know that if something is proposed as a theory, there will be a thousand people just itching to prove it wrong, thereby stealing the limelight for themselves. I think that if I ever found a way to disprove relativity, I'd practically have a heart attack out of excitement (and you can be sure I'd get a Nobel prize for it, too). In fact, it is already a well known fact that GR must be wrong at at least some level, because as it is formulated now, it's not compatible with some of the basic tenets of quantum mechanics. Though, I'm still pretty sure we'll see gravity waves, if you want my opinion. Gravity waves are predicted by ideas much more fundamental than GR (aka, the finite speed of light), and so GR could be be wrong, and we could still have gravity waves - as long as you define the propagating influence of gravity as a &amp;quot;wave,&amp;quot; and assume that information can't travel faster than the speed of light, then there you have it, really. And with respect to the video of the clouds, those are actually &amp;quot;gravity waves,&amp;quot; but of a different sort. The term comes from how the Earth's gravitational field effects atmospheric conditions. So it is the same term for two very different things, which unfortunately may lead to some confusion for some people. And with respect to Gravity Probe B, I admit that I do not know as much about that experiment, and off the top of my head would not really be able to debate it. Though if I remember correctly its data analysis is scheduled to continue into 2010, so I would hesitate to say anything until then (other than the fact that in principle, I find its goals fairly relevant - if you really wanted to test the geometrical nature of GR, you should try to confirm/disprove one of its craziest, most non-intuitive predictions - aka, frame-dragging). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::But I can assure you, I have met plenty of people who are very politically conservative, and believe in gravity waves. In fact, many deeply spiritual people believe that relativity is a sign of God's existence. The basic idea goes that if relativity were not true, there would have to be some preferred reference frame, which would have to be chosen somewhat arbitrarily. But how could a divine creator just make some arbitrary choice like that? Not very elegant, if you ask me. In fact, I have heard that some people actually cry when they finally understand GR, because of what an elegant theory it is. If you want to read more about ideas like that, I definitely suggest Brian Greene's book, &amp;quot;Fabric of the Cosmos.&amp;quot; If you want my honest opinion, I have yet to come across anything in my study of physics that I believe is a serious threat to the existence of some intelligent creator. From what I can gather, most physicists don't even concern themselves with such an aim - if God exists, then he exists. Our goal is to study what we can see, and make useful predictions based on that. If it's all just a result of God, then so be it. The only result will be that we've come to know Him a little better through out study of the universe and its workings. --kfratus&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: The article hardly says anything about gravity waves. Are you suggesting some change to the article? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:00, 12 April 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== General Questions ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The article suggests that Newtonian physics somehow suggest the bending of light, which is impossible according to Newtonian physics. Since a photon has zero mass, it cannot be bent by the force as described by Newton. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Huh? I thought it was Newton who '''discovered''' the bending of light, which occurs as light enters a [[prism]]. It is because the various frequencies of light bend by different amounts that we get the [[rainbox]] effect (see [[spectrum]]). Or I have I totally forgotten my [[high-school physics]] and [[history of science]]? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:00, 19 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next point, Newton's action-at-a-distance theory of gravity seems to be taken as fact. The idea that general relativity violates this is used as a point against it. Newton himself stated, and I quote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is inconceivable, that inanimate brute matter should, without the&lt;br /&gt;
mediation of something else, which is not material, operate upon, and&lt;br /&gt;
affect other matter without mutual contact; as it must do, if gravitation,&lt;br /&gt;
...., be essential and inherent in it. And this is one reason, why I&lt;br /&gt;
desired you would not ascribe innate gravity to me. That gravity should&lt;br /&gt;
be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act&lt;br /&gt;
upon another, at a distance through vacuum, without the mediation of&lt;br /&gt;
anything else, by and through their action and force may be conveyed&lt;br /&gt;
from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no&lt;br /&gt;
man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking,&lt;br /&gt;
can ever fall into it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Therefor, even the founder of classical mechanics saw action-at-a-distance as problem, so how is it in any way evidence to contradict a well tested theory?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Oh, ignoring phenomena such as quantum entanglement, are we? --[[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:57, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:: Actually, no. The reason that a grand unified theory is necessary is because of the discrepancies of the quantum world and the macro world. Both have been tested, neither conclusively, but evidence is in their favor. All I am saying here is that you can't use this (logically) as a point to disqualify an entire theory. Especially when you use this point when referencing a person (Newton) who had a problem with it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Kindly use the signature button (10th from the left above) to &amp;quot;sign&amp;quot; your comments, so we can tell who's saying what.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Newton assumed nothing; he &amp;quot;feigned no hypotheses.&amp;quot;  Accordingly, he didn't have &amp;quot;a problem with it.&amp;quot;  It was his peers who could not accept it.  Newton's quote above does not question &amp;quot;action at a distance,&amp;quot; but is commenting on the nature of matter.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Many still refuse to accept action at a distance (and non-locality), as your own viewpoints demonstrate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Still refuse? As one of your relatives pointed out, there is some support for it, such as quantum entanglement, but on a large scale (say larger than the what is it now, 1 km?) past where quantum entanglement has been proven, there is no proof or any proof to suggest it should be true. And, I'm sorry, but I have to say. Don't assign my viewpoints to me sir. I will decide what I think based on fact. What I form as opinion, I will state as such. I don't understand how people can read this article with any knowledge of physics and agree with it. None of my professors, mentors, or scientists that I have met would support such statements. The fact that you are doing so proves the disgusting and twisted lengths that some people will go to in order to make established fact comply with their own super-conservative beliefs. It is people like yourselves that are ruining the republican party and make me scared for the future of America.--[[User:RobertSJ|RobertSJ]] 23:22, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: So even though non-locality and action at a distance have been fully proven in laboratory experiments, you claim &amp;quot;there is no proof or any proof to suggest it should be true&amp;quot; ''beyond a certain distance''.  Surely you don't think there is one set of laws for less than an arbitrary distance, and another set of laws for larger than an arbitrary distance.  No, the real problem here is that some people, perhaps including yourself, do not and will not accept action at a distance regardless of the proof.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Next point, several &amp;quot;obscure physicists&amp;quot; is not the same as almost the entire community of physicists (which is the actual truth here.) Gravitational redshift perfectly explains the way that signals between earth and GPS satellites are different in time. That is how current GPS positions are calculated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You mention LIGO at the very end and gravity waves as well. There is no prior mention. The prior mentions should explain what gravity waves are, why they are so weak, why they can probably only be detected from very massive binary systems, and why even when these massive binary systems are found the radiation should be so weak that the immense precision of LIGO and LISA are required.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just some points on things that are not accurate or need to be clarified in order to not leave the reader with a false interpretation of scientific fact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Also edit, I am a physics major attending a well-respected and also conservative school (Vanderbilt). I have conducted research in physics at a national lab (ORNL), and like to keep up on this kind of thing. I am a moderate but conservative leaning voter.--[[User:RobertSJ|RobertSJ]] 23:22, 11 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: I responded in greater detail above, but let me just add that not everything you've learned is true, and not everything your professors state is true either.  Hopefully you'll admit at least that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Photons have zero rest mass, but they are not at rest. A reference is given for the deflection of light as predicted by relativity theory. So the article seems to be correct about the bending of light. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:41, 12 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I wish that critics of CP would help us write [[basic physics]] articles instead of trying to &amp;quot;prove us wrong&amp;quot;. Please help me finish the &amp;quot;[[bending of light]]&amp;quot; article, in accordance with what we all agree about Newton's discoveries many decades ago. Then we can discuss how to present [[quantum physics]], okay? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:04, 19 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Non-Locality and Quantum Field Theory ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is no action at a distance, nor non-locality, in quantum mechanics nor field theory. None. You're confusing two different subjects.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, action at a distance: True, in Newton's gravity, there is action at a distance. But this is totally different from anything to be found in QM or field theory, which have no action at a distance. All Hamiltonians in the standard models of field theory (QED, electroweak, QCD) are strictly local Hamiltonians.  Forces are exerted by passing virtual bosons back and forth in space, like footballs.  Interactions (like electron/photon, then photon/electron) are all 100% local.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The fact that Newton's theory assumed action at a distance (without proof) does not mean that ALL theories require action at a distance.  Why should that follow?  Why should modern theories be limited by Newton's unproved assumptions?  Quantum field theory is immensely more accurate, measured objectively, than Newton's gravity force ever was.  QED (with special relativity built in) predicted the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron accurate to one part in a TRILLION. Newton's theory was never even close to that level of accuracy!  Newton could never accurately compute the orbit of Mercury or gravitational lensing to one part in a trillion! Or billion.  By objective criteria, field theory is more accurate than Newton.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Second, non-locality: non-locality is not the same as action at a distance. Action at a distance requires exertion of a FORCE. Nothing in QM is in fact non-local.  The only thing non-local about QM is the Copenhagen interpretation of wavefunction collapse, which is not a part of the equations, but a way of visualizing the effect of observation a QM system.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
You have mentioned quantum entanglement as a supposed example of non-locality.  Entanglement, and phenomena like quantum teleportation, do not exert FORCES, so they are not actiona at a distance!  Further, quantum entanglement can never be used to transmit information faster than the speed of light.  Hence, there's no contradiction between QM and SR.  Field theory has SR built in.  There is no experiment, in quantum teleportation nor EPR paradox, Bell's inequality etc., that can possibly transmit information FTL. Describe one experiment, just one entanglement experiment, that can supposedly transmit info FTL.  I dare you.  Just one.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So what is this supposed &amp;quot;non-locality&amp;quot; then? The Copenhagen interpretation of QM says that the wavefunction should &amp;quot;collapse&amp;quot; (revert to a single eigenfunction) everywhere simultaneously when an observation is made.  If this really happened, it would be a problem for SR, because in SR, simultaneity is relative to the observer. But, two problems. First, this supposed &amp;quot;collapse&amp;quot; can never be observed and can never be used to transmit info FTL.  Second, the Copenhagen interpretation is deeply flawed because it never defined what an &amp;quot;observation&amp;quot; was. It is no longer the most popular interpretation; among physicists, the Many Worlds interpretation is more popular now, because it precisely defines what observation means, in terms of quantum decoherence, so MWI connects better to macroscopic thermodynamics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you want to (groan) argue the point, you can argue that Copenhagen and Many Worlds are both non-local, but so what?  They're visualizations, not equations, and certainly not forces, nor &amp;quot;actions&amp;quot;!! When neither visualization scheme can be used to transmit info FTL, nor exert a force, this is no problem for SR at all!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The only big problem here is that field theory is incompatible with GR, not SR.  True. Everybody knows this is the biggest problem in physics. No one knows whether the flaw is in GR, field theory, or both.  However, either way, there is no problem between field theory and SR.  Field theory has SR built in, and is (objectively measured) the most precise scientific theory in history. If you argue this, I'll swamp you with experimental proofs. [[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 15:53, 18 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;Cuddlytakun&amp;quot;, you've obviously made up your mind that [[action at a distance]] and [[non-locality]] must not exist.  But all evidence is against your view.  Would you support spending another billion dollars of taxpayer money looking for [[gravitons]] to support your view?  I hope not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:How about this:  raise ''private'' capital for searching for gravitons to support your philosophy.  Then we'll see how many really agree with you, rather than just going along for the ride.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:10, 18 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Au contrere mon frere, you made up your mind that action at a distance is the only type force possible.  I have nowhere said action at a distance is impossible.  I've said Newton never proved, could not prove, it was the ONLY possibility. I suppose it's possible for both to exist.  In field theory this would mean a Hamiltonian that is part local and part non-local.  Sometimes the idea is kicked around. Mathematically, non-local Hamiltonians are a pain in the ass to compute with, and counterintuitive, but theoretically possible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why have you decided that action at a distance is the only possibility? Just because Newton's theory assumed it without proof, this does not mean all forces in nature must likewise be action at a distance.  Think about this: suppose you and I are ice-skating. I toss you a football. When I throw the ball, reaction force pushes me backward. When you catch it, the collision pushes you away from me.  Basic repulsive force at a distance, composed of local pairwise interactions. All forces in the standard model (electrodynamic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear; that is electroweak and QCD) work that way. The footballs are virtual bosons of spin 1.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;All evidence is against your view&amp;quot;? What evidence? What are you talking about!? &amp;quot;Your view&amp;quot;? Hell of a dismissive thing to say. It's not &amp;quot;my view&amp;quot;, it's the view of everybody in physics, including Weinberg and Wilczek. Do you even know the meaning of the quotes you lifted out of Wilczek and Weinberg's speeches!? Seriously, do you have any evidence in mind, any at all, or are you just blowing smoke?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So you drag funding issues into it. As you know, the Europeans paid for the Large Hadron Collider so all the geniuses are moving to Europe. The last smart person to leave America, please turn out the lights.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But don't dismiss field theory as &amp;quot;philosophy&amp;quot;. You're playing word games because you can't back up your statements with facts. These are facts: with field theory, you can predict the experimental value of the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron to one part in a trillion. Of the muon, to one part in a billion. You can compute the mass of protons and neutrons and mesons from first principles, a priori!  Which is an inherently relativistic computation (m = E/c2, with E from local QCD.) The Z boson's existence and mass were predicted before its discovery via electroweak theory, which is an entirely local Hamiltonian.  Newton's gravity could never compute anything to an accuracy of one part in a billion, or compute masses of particles a priori, or predict new particles before they're observed!  Why do you call field theory philosophy, but Newton's theory is science?  Explain the definition of &amp;quot;philosophy&amp;quot; you're using here. Word games! &lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 23:55, 18 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your &amp;quot;word-to-substance ratio&amp;quot; is very high; you are likely a [[liberal]].  See point 2 in [[liberal style]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I beg you to open your mind and learn here, for your own sake.  Look at how you refused to address my simple point.  Instead you cling to your perception of what you think others believe.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:11, 19 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
How can I address your point, when there's no way to know what IS your point? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Is your point &amp;quot;All evidence is against your view&amp;quot;? OK, dish it out. Just list the top 3 evidences showing that action at a distance is the only way possible for particles to interact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My point is: the horrible paragraph in the Intro about non-locality and field theory, incorrectly implies field theory is defective. It is not. Field theory is the most successful theory in the history of science.  Weinberg's statement about field theory not being &amp;quot;robust&amp;quot; cannot be assessed by the reader because &amp;quot;robust&amp;quot; is not defined in this context. Weinberg's speech was written in '79, his criticisms were resolved by later successes of QCD and QED, as Wilczek described. That paragraph should go.  You're trashing relativity and field theory too. Why? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Write 3 sentences. Top 3 evidences that action at a distance is the only way for particles to interact. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 16:10, 21 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:How about ONE evidence, Cuddles?  Like the evidence that you refused to go beyond talk and ''improve the articles''.  Nothing happened at all by way of action of your part, either in this article, nor in [[Quantum field theory]], which definately needs improvement.  Instead of action, all we get is gab from you.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 16:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
OK. I have significantly updated the page on [[Quantum field theory]]. EdPoor said the page needed writing, and Karajou asked me to make an improvement, so I rewrote it. Now I'm going to fix the last paragraph in the Intro, which trashes field theory. Here I'm going to explain and justify my rewrites, line by line.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;...which [Relativity] assume that time is an intrinsic part of space and assumes absolute locality.&amp;quot; I have rewritten as &amp;quot;Unlike Newtonian mechanics, in which space and time intervals are each invariant as seen by all observers, in SR the only invariant quantity is a quadratic combination of space and time intervals (x&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; - c t&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It does not make sense to say that in relativity &amp;quot;time is part of space&amp;quot;, nor is space part of time. The theory is about a space-time continuum, not time as part of space! They're symmetric in the metric, but with different signs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The non-locality of quantum mechanics and Newtonian physics contradicts the theories of relativity&amp;quot; I have rewritten as &amp;quot;The (assumed) instantaneous transmission of Newtonian gravitational effects contradicts special relativity.&amp;quot; This statement is more accurate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What does it mean to say &amp;quot;Quantum mechanics is non-local&amp;quot;? Vague. Quantum wavefunctions are non-local, and in the event of quantum entanglement (correlation) the wavefunction is multi-particle. But this is not relevant to relativity because real particles (unlike virtual particles) cannot transmit info faster than light (light cone restriction conserves causality). No entanglement experiment (e.g. teleportation) can transmit info faster than light, in fact teleportation requires classical info transmission SLOWER than light, look it up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Copenhagen interpretation of the collapse of the wavefunction upon observation is non-local but it is an interpretation, and likewise, cannot transmit info faster than light.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'Causality breaks down under relativity if information can be transmitted faster than the speed of light. In addition, the uncertainty principle suggests that light photons must sometimes travel faster than the speed of light despite the assumption of relativity; &amp;quot;[t]he only known way to resolve this tension involves introducing the idea of antiparticles.&amp;quot;[6]' &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have rewritten as: 'In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle suggests that virtual particles can sometimes travel faster than the speed of light which would violate causality, but &amp;quot;[t]he only known way to resolve this tension involves introducing the idea of antiparticles.&amp;quot;[6] Consequently, in 1928 Paul Dirac derived the Dirac equation, one of the first quantum mechanical equations compatible with special relativity, by which Dirac predicted the existence of antimatter. Four years later, antimatter (the positron) was discovered by Carl Anderson, as successfully predicted beforehand by relativistic quantum mechanics.'&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This statement accurately reflects the facts that, first, some quantum mechanical equations are compatible with SR (e.g. Dirac equation, Klein-Gordon equation), and that Dirac's prediction of antimatter before its discovery was a SUCCESS for relativistic quantum mechanics, not a failure! Which is the point Wilczek was making in the citation from his Nobel speech: success, not failure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Quantum field theory is another attempt to partially reconcile relativity with quantum mechanics. But &amp;quot;quantum field theory, which was born just fifty years ago from the marriage of quantum mechanics with relativity, is a beautiful but not very robust child.&amp;quot;[7]&amp;quot; I have rewritten as &amp;quot;[[Quantum field theory]], a generalization of quantum mechanics, is fully compatible with special relativity but not with general relativity.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have deleted the quote from Weinberg because it gives the inaccurate picture that there's something wrong with field theory. There isn't.  The [[Quantum field theory]] article lists some of its many successes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Cuddlytakun|Cuddlytakun]] 16:46, 22 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Proof ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The proofs for relativity are both mathematical and physical, yet this article tries to say otherwise. If someone doesn't know them then can I please put them in without them being edited out within minutes?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Unlikelyconvert|Unlikelyconvert]] 13:14, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You're not going to push anything that is false here.  Make your very best edit first and let's see how that looks, before you spend a lot of time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:20, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I haven't tried to push anything, I've made a few edits already, corrected a couple of scientific mistakes, and said this. Can you please open your mind for just 10 minutes and look at both sides of this debate? Look at the overwhelming consensus on relativity, and then I will look at any source you give me forwarding your viewpoint. As I've said in another talk page, I am willing to change my views if you can prove them.&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Unlikelyconvert|Unlikelyconvert]] 13:27, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: My mind is open, and I've invited you to make your very best edit first.  Or, alternatively, state it here.  Keep your word-to-substance ratio low, however.  See [[liberal style]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:30, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Looking above, many people have stated the mathematical proofs in their different forms, yet you dismissed most of them almost out of hand. And I am not a liberal in respect to your definition, I am the (in my experience) the more common kind, the kind who will accept evidence. And you don't seem that open minded, as when i offered to put in proofs you started by saying I was trying to spread falsehoods. Proof makes something true, not false.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Unlikelyconvert|Unlikelyconvert]] 13:34, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I'm going to move on to more substantive edits.  Your word-to-substance ratio has been very high.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:20, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I'm going to ban uc if he doesn't stop trying to make people change their minds. If he wants to provide information about a novel, unproven or untested theory he's welcome to do that. He can even write about a theory which we conservatives know is false, provided that he doesn't try to present it as '''valid'''. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Our policy is to label advocacy as such. Say, for example, that Professor X asserts theory Y because of Z. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 15:22, 20 May 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Complex equations of relativity ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
What do you mean when you write that &amp;quot;Unlike most of physics, the theories of relativity consist of complex mathematical equations...&amp;quot;.  I believe that most people would consider Maxwell's equations complex...not to mention the equations found in quantum mechanics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Your quote is misleadingly incomplete, and Maxwell's equations do not describe an additional dimension.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:24, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Sorry if my abbreviated quotation was misleading.  I wrote it that way because I perceived that this article was intending to state that the theories of relativity are more complex than other physical theories.  Perhaps I misunderstood the intent.  In either case, I agree that the relativity equations are complex, but other physical theories are just as complex.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Maxwell's equations desribe electric and magnetic fields as a function of three spatial dimensions and time.  Although descriptions of relativity may refer to time as the fourth dimension, the equations of relativity use only three spatial dimensions and incorporate time as a fourth MATHEMATICAL dimension (which does not mean that it is another spatial dimension).--[[User:RustyR|RustyR]] 13:06, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Sir [[Arthur Eddington]] bragged that he was only one of a few people who could understand relativity.  Really, it's absurd for you to claim that the four-dimensional system of relativity is not more complex mathematically than most other physics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:35, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Quantum Field Theory/Changes to the Intro ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The introduction currently contains false information- it asserts that relativity stands apart from the rest of physics, in that it relies on hypotheses and complex mathematics.  All of physics relies on hypotheses and mathematics- for instance: Newtonian mechanics relies on the assumptions F=ma, objects at rest remain at rest, objects in motion remain in motion.  Quantum mechanics relies on the Von Neumann postulates,etc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, the mathematics of special relativity are really no more complicated then Newtonian mechancis, and less complicated then Maxwell's equations or quantum mechanics.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The introduction also asserts that quantum field theories are not entirely successful (in combining special relativity with quantum mechanics).  This is blatantly not true-the standard model is the most successful theory we have, and it is a quantum field theory. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The last change I made was to the rewording of the assumptions of relativity in section 1.  The constant speed of light cannot be reworded as nothing can travel faster then light- the latter follows from the former.  The first is an assumption of the theory, the second a result of the theory (the difference between an axiom and a statement proven from the axiom).    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, I think the paragraph about special relativity and Newtonian gravity being in conflict is an excellent opportunity to talk about the need for general relativity, so I would like to add something about that. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On a stylistic note, maybe the references to quantum mechanics should be grouped together in their own section, or their own article?  Also, perhaps-we should include an &amp;quot;evidence for&amp;quot; section to contrast with the &amp;quot;evidence against&amp;quot;?--[[User:WLink|WLink]] 11:38, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You've made a number of false assertions here.  Newton expressly rejected relying on hypotheses.  His physics is based on observation, in contrast with relativity, where mathematics was developed first and then data was sought to support it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Relativity relies on four-dimensional space; other physics does not.  It was widely claimed for years that few could understand relativity, and Eddington even has a famous quotation to that effect.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Quantum Field Theory is incomplete at best and incoherent at worst.  Even one of the rare Nobel Prizes for it has an admission of incompleteness in the acceptance speech.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Relativity is a liberal's fantasy, and Obama even supposedly helped with a paper drawing liberal conclusions from it.  Too bad it's all assumption and little more.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:35, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Experiment has born relativity out time and time again.  Michelson Morley, Ives-Stilwell, Pound-Rebka,Shapiro time delay, etc.  The Tevatron has been confirming special relativity millions of times every second for years now.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now, as to Newton- Newton made a famous statement about relying on hypothesis, that does not mean he didn't do it.  I recommend his famous paper on prisms (http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/).  He advanced a particulate model of light, etc.  Newton did make hypothesis, and his physics relied on it.  Again, F=ma, the existence of inertial frames, etc. Quantum mechanics rests on highly mathematical postulates (the Von Neumann postulates).  At least relativity's postulates are about physics, not mathematics. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now, when you discuss relativity, you are conflating special and general.  General relativity requires a great deal of mathematics, and it is general relativity that Eddington's famous quote was about.  Special relativity is much easier.  Changing time from an evolution parameter (as in Newton) to a coordinate (relativity) does not complicate things much.  Single variable calculus and a good knowledge of algebra is enough mathematics to come to grips with the field.  Quantum mechanics and Maxwell's equations require a solid knowledge of vector calc.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Lastly, a quick perusal of the nobel prizes awarded to work on the Standard Model/Field Theories since 1965- 1965,1967,1968,1972,1979,1980,1982,1984,1988,1990,1995,1999,2004,2008.  Its not rare at all, a bit better than 1/3 of the prizes.  Further, claiming something doesn't make it so- quantum field theories are the most precisely tested theories in all of science.  g-2 of the electron is the most precise measurement mankind has made, and it matches the theoretical calculation to 10 significant figures.  What more could you ask of in a theory?  --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 15:45, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 1: no experiment has confirmed either of the two basic assumptions of special relativity, or many of the claims that are mathematically derived from those assumptions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 2: you seem to think F=ma is a hypothesis rather than a definition of force.  Regardless, your argument does not negate Newton's quote or affect any aspect of this entry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 3: we do consider special and general relativity to be part of the same overall theory, as most people do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 4: your reference to &amp;quot;significant figures&amp;quot; (the better term &amp;quot;significant digits&amp;quot;) is plainly silly and meaningless.  The string of dates for Nobel Prizes counts for even less.  When the prize was genuinely given for quantum field theory, the recipient honestly acknowledged how inadequate the progress has been.  I don't know of anyone who seriously disputes that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Look, we can cut through a ton of subterfuge if you would just address my last point, which you avoided:  liberals like Obama (and you?) like relativity for its political ramifications.  Suit yourself, but don't pretend it is based on physical observations rather than unproven assumptions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:51, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: : I agree with WLink. It is just not true that the math of relativity was developed before the physics. Relativity does not rely on 4-dimensional space any more than quantum field theory. The first 2 paragraphs of the article (starting with &amp;quot;Unlike&amp;quot;) are false in almost every detail.&lt;br /&gt;
:: The progress in quantum field theory has been huge. Who said it was inadequate? If so, I dispute that, and all those Nobel prizes dispute it.&lt;br /&gt;
:: What are the politics of relativity? Maybe you should spell that out. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:08, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The politics driving relativity is self-evident:  moral relativism, curvature of values, no fundamental frame of reference, no action at a distance, and an implicit denial of the arrow of time.  Read the famous Tribe/Obama paper if you want detailed application to specific political issues, such as abortion.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Name one productive advance made possible by the &amp;quot;huge&amp;quot; progress in quantum field theory.  There aren't any.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: General relativity, which is the main component of relativity, certainly was developed before physical observations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:43, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 1: Now you are essentially restating the problem of induction- it is a problem with ALL of science, not just relativity. Also, Michelson Morley DOES essentially test the constant speed of light postulate.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 2: As I said above, even if we take Newton as a special case, what about quantum mechanics, Electricity and magnetism, etc.  All require assumptions! Even if Newton's quote were true, Newtonian science would be the exception, not the rule.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 3: Most people consider special and general relativity different, but related theories.  They are usually taught in separate courses, and have different domains of usefulness (general relativity being a theory of gravity is used in gravitational problems.  Special relativity being a theory of fast moving things is used in particle accelerators).  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Point 4- the point about significant digits is not silly- quantum field theory makes the most precise/accurate prediction of any theory of all of science. Further, everyone of those Nobels I listed was given for an aspect of field theory.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As to your last point- reality is what reality is.  Whether or not liberals can twist something to fit their ideology is irrelevant.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But, I give up.  I wanted to add my expertise as a particle physicist to your educational resource.  If you don't want what I have to offer, I have more productive things to do. --[[User:WLink|WLink]] 19:12, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 1: No, the Morley experiment comes nowhere near confirming the postulate of relativity about the speed of light.  And it's absurd to tar all of science with the sweeping, unproven assumptions on which relativity depends.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 2: Your answer is unresponsive.  Nothing else in physics depends so heavily on broad, far-fetched assumptions as relativity does.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 3: Your answer is disproved by the name &amp;quot;general relativity&amp;quot; itself.  It is the general theory, of which special relativity is a special case.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Point 4: Your claim that something &amp;quot;makes the most precise/accurate prediction of any theory of all of science&amp;quot; is a familiar and silly assertion made by liberals.  You haven't explained why that claim should be meaningful, and it isn't.  High school-level electromagnetism can make ''completely'' precise predictions.  If you think there is a striking insight made available by only quantum field theory, then let's hear it.  But pretending it is great does not make it so.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: On your last point:  you're plainly wrong in claiming that &amp;quot;[w]hether or not liberals can twist something to fit their ideology is irrelevant,&amp;quot; because you studied in school what liberals like and haven't even heard with an open mind contrary viewpoints.  If you received a good grade for the reciting liberal viewpoints, then it becomes even more difficult for you to reconsider.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: We want open-minded talent here.  If you give up, then it is because your mind was made up.  I urge you to open your mind more, but that's obviously up to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:43, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, relativity does not rest on assumptions or complex equations any more than any other theory of physics. It is not true that electromagnetism can make accurate predictions without relativity. Maxwell's theory is a relativistic theory. The origin of special relativity is in Maxwell's equations, not in any unconfirmed assumptions. I have pointed to 8 false and unsourced sentences in the article. Your comments make no sense. What do you think the Michelson-Morley experiment was measuring? Do you have some interpretation of it that differs from everyone who has ever written on the subject? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 22:34, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: You seem to be relying on some kind of fundamental distinction between special and general relativity.  Special relativity is simply (as its name suggests) a special case of general relativity.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The Michelson-Morley experiment does not establish the assumption of relativity about the speed of light, or relativity's insistence that action-at-a-distance is impossible.  We can edit the Michelson-Morley entry here if you want to get into the details of what it showed, and did not show.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Basic electrical circuits, like the kind in computers, are predicted perfectly by electromagnetics without any use of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:42, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Mathematically, special relativity is tangent to general relativity. I am just using common terminology. If you don't believe relativity, that is your business, but it is essential for all of physics in the last 150 years. And yes, it is needed to understand the electromagnetism used in computers. I suggest you find sources for your statements. I repeat, I count 8 false and unsourced sentences just in the first couple of paragraphs. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 22:59, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: The claim that relativity &amp;quot;is essential for all of physics in the last 150 years&amp;quot; is a standard over-the-top assertion of those who were fed it in school and have never reconsidered since.  The truth is no one can cite a single achievement of value by the theory.  For something supposedly so essential for 150 years, don't you find it odd that you cannot cite anything of value that has come from it???&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: I was just pointing out errors in the article, and not trying to start a discussion on &amp;quot;value&amp;quot;. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 23:38, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: Special relativity introduced the equivalence of mass and energy, and that explained the extraordinary kinetic energy of the products of radioactive decay and led to harnessing both nuclear power and the nuclear weapons which defeated Japan and maintained peace for sixty years.  [[User:Linuxgal|Linuxgal]] 23:45, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Linuxgal's comment illustrates, perhaps innocently, one (of many) false claims promoted by relativists.  In fact, relativity had nothing to do with the Manhattan Project.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Here's a basic question that relativists should answer:  have taxpayers recovered the hundreds of millions of dollars of their money that have been spent in pursuit of relativity claims, such as the futile search for gravitons?  (Of course the answer is &amp;quot;no&amp;quot;.)--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:50, 15 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Sorry to butt in, but I'm wondering how relativity is at all linked to modern electronics.  From my (admittedly limited) knowledge, quantum mechanics fundamentally underpins modern electronics (CPU design has to account for quantum tunneling, etc.), but the precepts of relativity are totally irrelevant at the microscopic scale. [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 00:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: No, relativity is not irrelevant. Magnetism is understood as a relativistic effect. The theories that make Maxwell, Dirac, and Feynman famous are all relativistic. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 03:34, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: It's true that relativity has nothing to do with modern electronics, that's actually explained by Quantum Electrodynamics, but Einstein opened that up with his paper on the photon, which was published in 1905 together with his first relativity paper, and people mash it all together (BTW I was the one posting as Linuxgal, I didn't know we had to use real names). Gravitons are not a relativity claim, it is an attempt to make gravity into a gauge field theory like electromagnetism and nuclear forces, which use bosons to mediate interactions between particles (and there's no evidence for it)...general relativity explains gravity as particles following a &amp;quot;geodesic&amp;quot; in the warped geometry of space-time [[User:RubyR|RubyR]] 09:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: Relativity has produced nothing of value, and this discussion isn't doing any better.  The replies above are unresponsive to my points, and historically incorrect.  Are you saying that taxpayers should be forced to pay for this unproductive work?  Do you donate to it?  if your answer is &amp;quot;yes, no&amp;quot; then that speaks volumes.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: RubyR/Linuxgal is incorrect. Quantum electrodynamics has everthing to do with relativity. QED was created to make quantum mechanics relativistic, and it is a fully relativistic theory. That is how we got the Dirac equation of the electron. Without relativity, there is no QED, and no understanding of modern electronics. However, QED has nothing to do with with Einstein's 1905 paper on the photon. Einstein proposed that light is transmitted as a particle, rather than a wave, but QED treats light transmission as a wave.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Andy, this Talk page is for improving the article. I suggest fixing the errors, and let the reader decide for himself whether relativity is worth taxpayer support. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:01, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::: I'm all for correcting &amp;quot;falsehoods&amp;quot;, but let's start with your own comments.  You say, &amp;quot;Without relativity, there is no QED, and no understanding of modern electronics.&amp;quot;  That's just wrong, historically and logically.  The inventors of the transistor at Bell Labs had probably never even taken a course in relativity, let alone used it.  Relativity does not come up in the basic QM courses taught in college.  Virtually no papers about electronics even mention relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:52, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: The transistor inventors used Maxwells equations, a relativisitic theory. Yes, you can learn basic QM (eg, Heisenberg, Schodinger, von Neumann) theory without relativity, but you need relativity for QED (eg, Dirac, Feynman). There is no understanding of quantum fields, except using relativity. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 14:24, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: Maxwell's theory predates relativity by thirty years or more.   It is Maxwell that informed Einstein, not the other way round.  [[User:RubyR|RubyR]] 14:38, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::::: That's right, Maxwell predated Einstein by 30 years or so. Your point? Maxwell's equations are still relativistic, ie, invariant under the Lorentz group. Maxwell's equations are taught and understood today in terms of relativity. You can view special relativity as just a way of understanding Maxwell's equations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:11, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::::: A relativist tries to view everything in terms of relativity ... including morality and values and an alleged impossibility of action-at-a-distance like what is described in the Bible.  Next thing we'll be hearing relativists claim that Edison's work was relativistic too!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::::: Ruby is right.  Call relativity Maxwellian if you like, but not vice-versa.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:28, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::::::: When I make the claim that relativity has nothing to do with electronics, it is to a first order approximation.  NASA/JPL engineers fly their space probes all around the solar system with a high degree of accuracy without resorting to Einstein's relativistic corrections to Newton's basic theory.  About the only place where relativity must be taken into account in electronics is the collating electromagnets at the CERN collider, where proton streams are accelerated to very close to the velocity of light. Otherwise the &amp;quot;slop&amp;quot; inherent in digital timing (you must wait for a signal to stabilize before accepting it as valid) buries the effects. [[User:RubyR|RubyR]] 16:35, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::::::::: Magnetism is a relativistic effect. If you are using magnetism, you are using relativity. If you deny relativity, then what is magnetism? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 16:48, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::::::::: And what is morality?  Look, there's no denying that relativists insist on applying their assumptions to anything and everything.  Magnetism doesn't need relativity, and relativity hasn't produced a single thing that is productive.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This discussion has degenerated in Andy arguing points that are not in the article. I suggest fixing these errors:&lt;br /&gt;
:Unlike most of physics, the theories of relativity consist of complex mathematical equations relying on several hypotheses. - WRONG.&lt;br /&gt;
:These equations assume that it is forever impossible to attain a velocity faster than the speed of light, a hypothesis that can never be fully tested. - No, the equation show increased inertia as the speed of light is approached, something that has been experimentally verified for a century.&lt;br /&gt;
:By relying on assumptions about nature rather than observations, ... - No, SR relies essentially on electromagnetic observations.&lt;br /&gt;
:Relativity rejects Newton's action at a distance, which is basic to Newtonian gravity and quantum mechanics. - No, only to some interpretations of QM.&lt;br /&gt;
:The mathematics of relativity assume no exceptions, yet in the time period immediately following the origin of the universe the relativity equations could not possibly have been valid. - Nonsense. What is the source for this silly statement?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Relativity has been met with much resistance in the scientific world. - No reputable physicist in the last century has failed to accept relativity.&lt;br /&gt;
:To date, a Nobel Prize has never been awarded for relativity. - Prize were given indirectly for relativity in 1902, 1921, 1933, 1993. Plus the QFT prizes already listed: 1965,1967,1968,1972,1979,1980,1982,1984,1988,1990,1995,1999,2004,2008&lt;br /&gt;
:Louis Essen, the man credited with determining the speed of light, wrote many fiery papers against it such as The Special Theory of Relativity: A Critical Analysis.[5] - He is a kook.&lt;br /&gt;
:Relativity also gravely conflicts with quantum mechanics, and although theories like string theory and quantum field theory have attempted to unify relativity and quantum mechanics, neither has been entirely successful or proven. - No, there is no known conflict. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 15:56, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: That's quite a rant, ranging from calling someone a &amp;quot;kook&amp;quot; to insisting that everyone accepts something.  See how your claims contradict each other?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: The bottom line is this:  stop wasting taxpayer money on this stuff.  If you believe it so much, then donate your own money.  But the grand sum of money donated by relativists to something they claim is so great is this:  $0.  Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: I did not say anything about money donated by relativists, about morality. Do you want to address something that I did say? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 17:49, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Your objections are patently absurd.  Taking your first objection, of course relativity relies entirely on sweeping assumptions, such as claiming that ''v'' can never, ever be faster than ''c'' and that there is no difference in frames of reference anywhere in the universe.  No other area of physics relies so heavily on such far-fetched and unprovable assumptions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: That is like complaining that Newtonian physics assumes that energy is conserved. The statement about was observed by Michelson-Morley and others. If you want to call it an assumption, then it was also assumed by Newton in 1687 [[http://www.niu.edu/phil/~kapitan/newton1.shtml]]. Every other theory of science also has similar assumptions, if you want to call these assumptions. Relativity is no different. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:38, 16 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: I looked at your reference and found nothing relevant to this discussion, and you quoted nothing.  In sum, relativity has yielded nothing productive, and neither is this discussion.  Every minute spent on discussing relativity is a wasted minute, and every dollar spent is a wasted dollar.  Relativity is based entirely on sweeping and implausible assumptions unlike any other theory of physics.  Suit yourself if you like relativity, but you're wasting your time and please don't waste any more taxpayer dollars on it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:01, 17 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: You complain that relativity is different from Newtonian physics, and then you fail to see the relevance of what Newton said about the principle of relativity. I give up. The CP relativity article is filled with errors. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 00:27, 17 October 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Some clarifications I hope will be helpful ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I signed up for a Conservapedia account after reading this article and talk page, and particularly the back-and-forth between Aschlafly and Rschlafly. I saw what appeared to me to be some points of confusion and miscommunication, and I thought I might be able to help clear them up.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First, on the GPS question, I ''think'' I see what Aschlafly is saying about clocks. I think he means that Newtonian dynamics predicts no change in time from one reference frame to another, but rather that the ''forces'' on an orbiting satellite may affect a ''clock'' on board that satellite, just like bumping a record player can cause it to skip.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is a very astute observation, particularly given the minuteness of the observed desynchronization. The trouble is, it can't possibly be correct under Newtonian dynamics. The equivalence principle — the most basic Galilean one — says that a freely falling reference frame is indistinguishable from a reference frame which is not accelerating. So there are no forces acting on a clock in an orbiting satellite. (This is an approximation, obviously; tidal forces are at work inside an orbiting satellite. But on that scale, tidal forces are far too minute to have any measurable effect, much less an effect on the scale that's been observed.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now, maybe there's some as-yet-unknown force acting on the particular type of clock in a GPS satellite, causing it to desynchronize from ground-based clocks. A magnetic force, maybe, since those clocks are solid-state. We can easily imagine such a force, and define it in a way that matches the observations, just like Newton imagined a &amp;quot;gravitational force&amp;quot; that caused objects to fall in the way he observed. But physicists are (I think understandably) reluctant to do that, since the predictions of general and special relativity combined match the observed effects to the limit of our ability to measure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's not accurate at all to say that the desynchronization of GPS clocks ''proves'' either theory of relativity. What is accurate is that the two theories of relativity ''predict'' that orbiting clocks will differ from ground-based clocks in certain ways (slightly faster by a factor X because they're at a higher altitude, slightly slower by a separate factor Y because they're in motion) and that the observed behavior exactly matches the sum of the two predictions, to the limit of our ability to measure. GPS clocks don't ''prove'' relativity, but they also don't contradict it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's also more than a bit misleading to say that &amp;quot;relativity has yielded nothing productive,&amp;quot; since we wouldn't have PET scans without it for one example. But I'm a theoretician, not an engineer, so I can't contribute too much on that front. I'm also unsure whether you'd consider something like astronomical redshift or gravitational lensing (allowing us to better observe the universe) to be &amp;quot;productive&amp;quot; or not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm generally confused by what you're referring to when you say &amp;quot;sweeping and implausible assumptions.&amp;quot; Maybe you're confusing assumptions with predictions. In special and general relativity combined there are only three postulates — things that are assumed to be true by the theory: that the laws of physics are fundamentally the same no matter where you are or how you're moving, that the speed of light in a vacuum is the same to all observers, and that spacetime is everywhere (mathematically) continuous and differentiable.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The third postulate boils down, in layman's terms, to &amp;quot;We assume that mathematics works in the real world.&amp;quot; It's admittedly unfounded, but it's also a fundamental assumption of every other theory in physics as well. The second postulate started out as a bit of an assumption, but all experiments conducted to date have produced observations that are consistent with it. And the first postulate is another one of those fundamental assumptions of physics, that the basic laws of physics don't just change arbitrarily from place to place or from observer to observer. Only three assumptions, and none of them are either sweeping or implausible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding (okay, a big, huge, giant misunderstanding) about what &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;E=mc&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;2&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; means. That's okay, because most people who know what the letters in that equation stand for misunderstand what the equation means. That equation is ''nothing more than a unit conversion factor.'' You can convert from feet to inches by multiplying by a constant, twelve. If we define &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;k&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; to be 12, to keep from having to write the number down, then we could say &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;I=kf,&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; or inches equals feet times a constant. The mass-energy equation is just like that, a conversion factor for talking about energy (joules) in mass units (kilograms), or vice versa, just as we can talk about length in either feet or inches by applying a conversion factor. ''That's all it is.'' It doesn't ''say'' anything about the universe.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If you want to take issue with the mass-energy relation, you should turn your attention to the stress-energy tensor &amp;lt;i&amp;gt;T&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;μν&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/i&amp;gt; in the Einstein field equations. That's where the prediction is made that mass and energy are related on a fundamental level. If you want to argue that point, argue it there, not in the unit conversion equation, which doesn't say what you seem to think it says.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finally (and I'm only stopping here because I don't want to be ridiculously verbose), it's not ''exactly'' correct to say that relativity &amp;quot;[claims] that v can never, ever be faster than c.&amp;quot; That's ''sort of'' true, if you squint, but it's not exactly right. What special relativity ''predicts'' — not ''claims'' — is that if you start with any object the speed of which is less than the speed of light — say, me, sitting here — and you ''accelerate'' that object, then its velocity as measured in any reference frame will never reach the speed of light, no matter how ''hard'' you accelerate it nor for how long. That's a more accurate way to describe the prediction. In fact, from a purely abstract mathematical standpoint, the equations of special relativity kind of say the ''opposite'' of what you said. Because it's an equally valid mathematical solution to say that objects can exist which move ''faster'' than the speed of light, but that when they are ''negatively'' accelerated (i.e., decelerated) their speed will never be so ''slow'' as the speed of light. These types of masses are called &amp;quot;tachyons.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, there are some serious mathematical problems with tachyons as a solution to the equations of special relativity. It's true that the math works, but it's also true to say that if I have three apples and you take away five I have negative-two apples. A mathematically correct statement, but one that doesn't have meaning in the real world, since you can't ''physically'' take away more than I have; &amp;quot;negative-two apples&amp;quot; doesn't have a real-world meaning, and tachyons might also not have a real-world meaning. Special relativity doesn't say they ''do'' exist, or that they ''must'' exist, merely that ''may'' exist without contradicting the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I do apologize for writing at such length, but reading the exchange between Aschlafly and Rschlafly made me deeply sad. You two argued with such vehemence over points of misunderstanding that are really very simple. The coincidence in your names, and the possibility that you might be kin, just made it all the more sad to me. Perhaps it makes me a busybody, but seeing two people in conflict over such a trivial set of misunderstandings made me want to help. I hope you take my comments in that spirit. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 13:00, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: More to the point, the article falsely states that relativity ''assumes'' you can't exceed c, and thus that relativity is based on untestable assumptions.  This is wrong.  The speed limit may be a consequence of the theory, but it is not an assumption of the theory.  The assumption is that light speed is the same in all reference frames, an assumption that can be and has been tested.  Of course it can never be fully tested, but neither can simple motion formulas be tested at all velocities.  Thus this criticism of relativity is based on false premises.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: As for the complexity of relativity, this isn't true for special relativity; that much can be derived with just a little bit of linear algebra.  And so what if Eddington claimed to be one of the few people who understood it?  Is he a source of infallible truth?  Are we supposed to fill this encyclopedia with facts, or with stuff people say?  &lt;br /&gt;
    &lt;br /&gt;
: This encyclopedia is supposed to be guided by conservative principles, including the telling of objective Truth even if the Truth is politically incorrect or offensive to sensitive ears.  In this article we are seeing the complete derailing of that fundamental principle.  The article barely even describes its own subject and devotes as much space to attacking it with numerous disparaging falsehoods; all because the fact of relativity is offensive to somebody's political sensibilities and/or personal hangups.  --[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] 13:41, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: There's much verbosity in the above two posts, and I'll gradually try to weed through it.  Let me start by saying the obvious:  the Lorenzian transformation at the heart of special relativity certainly DOES assume that &amp;quot;v&amp;quot; cannot exceed &amp;quot;c&amp;quot;.  The equation blows up if that assumption is violated.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Now that I've addressed one of your points, how about addressing mine:  relativity has absurd physical discontinuities, as explained in the entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It's sometimes tricky to say what exactly are the &amp;quot;assumptions&amp;quot; in a theory, but I thnik I agree with NgSmith on this point.  One can derive the Lorentz transformations by assuming that the speed of light is the same in all reference frames.  Einstein himself wrote a neat short piece &amp;quot;Simple Derivation of the Lorentz Transformation&amp;quot; that does this, even if it's not entirely rigorous.  It's available online and quite lives up to its name.  Others have done a more careful job of deriving the transformations.  You're right that the Lorentz transformations do show we can't go above c, but I think it's more accurate to view this as a consequence of the assumption (c constant in all frames) underlying Lorentz, rather than viewing the Lorentz transformations themselves as the assumption.  But I understand this is all up to debate and really comes down to how we want to formalize the theory. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 15:40, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Regarding the complexity of relativity, yes. Relativity is mathematically complex. While it's true that a lot of special relativity can be handled with basic algebra, the geometric interpretation depends on a good understanding of hyperbolic trigonometry, which is reasonably advanced math. General relativity, of course, is based on differential geometry and tensor calculus, which are highly advanced subjects in math. They are mathematically challenging theories, no question.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I'm not sure that's a good criticism, though. I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, of course, but the mere fact that there's a lot of math doesn't seem to be a strong leg to stand on. Math, after all, can be learned by anyone with patience.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::(Just like posts with &amp;quot;much verbosity&amp;quot; can be read and understood by anyone with patience, but that's getting off the subject.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::On the topic of assumptions, I'm not sure what else to say that I didn't say above. Special relativity does not ''assume'' that ''v'' cannot equal or exceed ''c.'' It ''assumes'' that the measured speed of light in a vacuum is the same in all reference frames. It then goes on to ''predict'' that under acceleration ''v'' cannot reach ''c.'' I agree, that alone would be a very difficult prediction to test. Fortunately, special relativity also ''predicts'' that proper time in a moving reference frame runs slower than proper time at rest, in proportion to ''v,'' and that prediction is ''not'' difficult to test. We accelerate particles with known half-lives to high fractions of ''c'' and then observe how long it takes them to decay. After enough such tests, the relationship between proper time in the moving frame and proper time at rest can be measured with a high degree of statistical precision. (This is known as the Rossi-Hall experiment, and was first done in 1940.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::As for the other point about &amp;quot;absurd physical discontinuities&amp;quot; and the example given in the article — and believe me when I tell you I'm trying to say this as respectfully as I can — I'm afraid your math is simply flawed. The example given in the article is that if you take a massive particle, accelerate it to the limit c, ''and then also'' reduce its rest mass to the limit zero, you get a different momentum from that of a photon. At the risk of sounding pedantic, of course you do. Rest mass is not a variable in the equations of special relativity; it's not mathematically meaningful to take its value at a limit, because it's a constant. You could just as easily take the value of the gravitational constant ''G'' at the limit zero, but you wouldn't get physically meaningful results, because ''G'' does not vary. Saying that the equations break when you break the equations is, it seems to me, pretty tautological.--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 17:18, 11 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The Lorentz transformation at the heart of special relativity is ''not'' a starting assumption; it is a conclusion that is ''derived'' from the starting assumptions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: The article criticizes relativity for using the untestable speed limit as an ''assumption,'' which would be unwarranted.  Rather, relativity is based on a different assumption, that the speed of light is frame-invariant.  That assumption is perfectly justified; it is simply a statement of what experimental data was already telling us.    Indeed, relativity was borne out of an attempt to ''explain'' that experimental data.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: As for &amp;quot;absurd physical discontinuities,&amp;quot; the supposed discontinuity listed in the article is the same for ''both'' relativity and Newtonian physics:  the limit of mv as m goes to 0 and v goes to c is just 0, while the momentum of light is nonzero.  But so what?  A photon is not the ''limit'' of a shrinking mass, so this limit isn't supposed to equal the momentum of a photon.  This is not a &amp;quot;discontinuity&amp;quot; in the laws of physics, simply a misleading mathematical argument. --[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Comments on Newtonian Mechanics ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There are two aspects of Newtonian mechanics that are, I believe, misstated in this article.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One:  several times the article claims that Newtonian mechanics predicts deflection of light by massive objects.  &lt;br /&gt;
   &lt;br /&gt;
Newtonian physics did predict gravitational acceleration of light, ''back when light was thought to have mass, 200 years ago.''  But this &amp;quot;corpuscular&amp;quot; theory of light was abandoned long ago due to its false predictions, versus the growing evidence of light as a massless phenomenon.  With massless light Newtonian mechanics does not predict any gravitational deflection at all.&lt;br /&gt;
     &lt;br /&gt;
It is misleading to represent that old theory, long since discredited, as &amp;quot;Newtonian mechanics,&amp;quot; or to represent it as a present-day alternative to relativity.  Newtonian mechanics does not model light as corpuscles, and does not claim that light is accelerated by gravity.  &lt;br /&gt;
    &lt;br /&gt;
Two:  the article makes fudge-factor statements like, &amp;quot;it is debatable how much deflection Newtonian mechanics should predict.&amp;quot; No, it is not debatable at all:  both Newtonian mechanics and relativity have well-defined, concrete laws that you can find in any physics textbook.  There is no mystery or lingering uncertainty about what they say, and we know precisely what these laws predict about the path of a mass passing another mass.&lt;br /&gt;
    &lt;br /&gt;
It seems like the article is defending an incorrect prediction by arguing that the predicted value is still up for debate.  But this is wrong; we know what the predicted value was, and should honestly accept that it does not match observation.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Thanks for taking the time to find two specific areas for improvement here. This article was first on my list of those to improve — i.e., repair — when I signed up, but I've been working my way up to it because it's just so daunting. You've put the spotlight on a couple specific points, and that really helps.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm in the middle of expanding [[general theory of relativity]] and won't finish it until tomorrow. Would you be interested in collaborating with me on this article? I think moving much of the detail of the special and general theories to their respective pages will help clear out some of the junk on this page. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 18:43, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719828</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719828"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T21:01:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: /* The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|Newtonian approximation]], the gravitational vector field is directly proportional to mass. In general relativity, mass is just one of several sources of spacetime curvature. The ''stress-energy tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, includes all of these sources. Put simply, the stress-energy tensor quantifies all the ''stuff'' that contributes to spacetime curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First we will define the stress-energy tensor technically, then we'll examine what that definition means. In technical terms, the stress energy tensor represents ''the flux of the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; component of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Fine. But what does that ''mean?''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In classical mechanics, it's customary to refer to coordinates in space as &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. In general relativity, the convention is to talk instead about coordinates &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^1&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^2&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^3&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, where &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the time coordinate otherwise called &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;t&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, and the other three are just the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;y&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;z&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; coordinates. So &amp;quot;a surface of constant coordinate &amp;quot;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&amp;quot; simply means a 3-plane perpendicular to the &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;x^\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; axis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''flux'' of a quantity can be visualized as the magnitude of the current in a river: the flux of water is the amount of water that passes through a cross-section of the river in a given interval of time. So more generally, the flux of a quantity across a surface is the amount of that quantity that passes through that surface.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Four-momentum'' is the special relativity analogue of the familiar momentum from classical mechanics, with the property that the time coordinate &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mathbf{P}^0&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; of a particle's four-momentum is simply the energy of the particle; the other three components of four-momentum are the same as in classical momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So putting that all together, the stress-energy tensor is the flux of 4-momentum across a surface of constant coordinate. In other words, the stress-energy tensor describes the density of energy and momentum, and the flux of energy and momentum in a region. Since under the [[mass-energy equivalence]] principle we can convert mass units to energy units and vice-versa, this means that the stress-energy tensor describes ''all the mass and energy in a given region of spacetime.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Put even more simply, the stress-energy tensor represents ''everything that gravitates.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The stress-energy tensor, being a tensor of rank two in four-dimensional spacetime, has sixteen components that can be written as a 4 × 4 matrix.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu \nu }=\begin{pmatrix}&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Purple}T_{00} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{01} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{02} &amp;amp; \color{Blue}T_{03} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{10} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{11} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{12} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{13} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{20} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{21} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{22} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{23} \\&lt;br /&gt;
 \color{Red}T_{30} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{31} &amp;amp; \color{Green}T_{32} &amp;amp; \color{Orange}T_{33}&lt;br /&gt;
\end{pmatrix}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here the components have been color-coded to help clarify their physical interpretations.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::energy density, which is equivalent to mass-energy density; this component includes the mass contribution&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of momentum density&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{01}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{02}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Blue}T_{03}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of energy flux&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The space-space components of the stress-energy tensor are simply the [[stress tensor]] from classic mechanics. Those components can be interpreted as:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{12}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{13}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{23}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{21}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{31}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Green}T_{32}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''shear stress,'' or stress applied tangential to the region&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:;&amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
::the components of ''normal stress,'' or stress applied perpendicular to the region; normal stress is another term for ''pressure.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Pay particular attention to the first column of the above matrix: the components &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{10}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{20}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Red}T_{30}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, are interpreted as ''densities.'' A density is what you get when you measure the flux of 4-momentum across a 3-surface of constant ''time.'' Put another way, the instantaneous value of 4-momentum flux is density.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the diagonal space components of the stress-energy tensor — &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{11}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{22}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Orange}T_{33}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; — represent normal stress, or ''pressure.'' Not some weird, relativistic pressure, but plain old ordinary ''pressure,'' like what keeps a balloon inflated. Pressure also contributes to gravitation, which raises a very interesting observation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine a box of air, a rigid box that won't flex. Let's say that the pressure of the air inside the box is the same as the pressure of the air outside the box. If we heat the box — assuming of course that the box is airtight — then the temperature of the gas inside will rise. In turn, as predicted by the [[ideal gas law]], the pressure within the box will increase.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''The box is now heavier than it was.''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
More precisely, increasing the pressure inside the box raised the value of the pressure contribution to the stress-energy tensor, which will increase the curvature of spacetime around the box. What's more, merely increasing the ''temperature alone'' caused spacetime around the box to curve more, because the kinetic energy of the gas molecules inside the box also contributes to the stress-energy tensor, via the time-time component &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\color{Purple}T_{00}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;. ''All'' of these things contribute to the curvature of spacetime around the box, and thus to the gravitational field created by the box.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, in practice, the contributions of increased pressure and kinetic energy would be miniscule compared to the mass contribution, so it would be extremely difficult to measure the gravitational effect of heating the box. But on larger scales, such as the [[sun]], pressure and temperature contribute significantly to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this way, we can see that the stress-energy tensor neatly quantifies ''all'' static and dynamic properties of a region of spacetime, from mass to momentum to electric charge to temperature to pressure to shear stress. Thus, the stress-energy tensor is all we need on the right-hand side of the equation in order to relate matter, energy and, well, ''stuff'' to curvature, and thus to the gravitational field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the seemingly anomalous precession of Mercury's perihelion.  There are other explanations based in Newtonian gravity, such as factoring in the pull of the other planets on Mercury's orbit.  One Newtonian explanation requires a slight alternation to the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, which is disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British Historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in 20th century to have been when fellow Briton Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total eclipse.   Upon his return to England declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  In fact recent analysis of Eddington's work revealed that he was biased in selecting his data, and that overall his data were inconclusive about the theory of relativity. The prediction was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The prediction that light is bent by gravity is predicted both by Newtonian physics and relativity, but relativity predicts a larger deflection.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719776</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719776"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T18:42:15Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Added introduction to quantitative section, including reworking an existing graf to use more conventional notation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The mathematical expression of the theory of general relativity takes the form of the ''Einstein field equations,'' a set of ten nonlinear partial differential equations. While solving these equations is quite difficult, examining them provides valuable insight into the structure and meaning of the theory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In their general form, the Einstein field equations are written as a single [[tensor]] equation in [[abstract index notation]] relating the curvature of spacetime to sources of curvature such as energy density and momentum.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{\mu\nu} = 8\,\pi\,G\,T_{\mu\nu} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In this form, &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; represents the ''Einstein tensor,'' &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;G&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the same ''gravitational constant'' that appears in the [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;T_{\mu\nu}&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; is the ''stress-energy tensor'' (sometimes referred to as the ''energy-momentum tensor).'' The indices &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\mu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; and &amp;lt;math&amp;gt;\nu&amp;lt;/math&amp;gt; range from zero to three, representing the time coordinate and the three space coordinates in a manner consistent with [[Special theory of relativity|special relativity]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The left side of the equation — the Einstein tensor — describes the curvature of spacetime in the region under examination. The right side of the equation describes everything in that region that affects the curvature of spacetime.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As we can clearly see even in this simplified form, the Einstein field equations can be solved &amp;quot;in either direction.&amp;quot; Given a description of the gravitating matter, energy, momentum and fields in a region of spacetime, we can calculate the curvature of spacetime surrounding that region. On the other hand, given a description of the curvature of a region spacetime, we can calculate the motion of a test particle anywhere within that region.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even at this level of examination, the fundamental thesis of the general theory of relativity is obvious: motion is determined by the curvature of spacetime, and the curvature of spacetime is determined by the matter, energy, momentum and fields within it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the seemingly anomalous precession of Mercury's perihelion.  There are other explanations based in Newtonian gravity, such as factoring in the pull of the other planets on Mercury's orbit.  One Newtonian explanation requires a slight alternation to the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, which is disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British Historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in 20th century to have been when fellow Briton Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total eclipse.   Upon his return to England declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  In fact recent analysis of Eddington's work revealed that he was biased in selecting his data, and that overall his data were inconclusive about the theory of relativity. The prediction was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The prediction that light is bent by gravity is predicted both by Newtonian physics and relativity, but relativity predicts a larger deflection.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Black_hole&amp;diff=719737</id>
		<title>Talk:Black hole</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Black_hole&amp;diff=719737"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T18:01:39Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Extremely high density==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Technically, it's undefined, no? [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 07:52, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
did you know the 'Black Holes FAQ', which there is a link to, was  written in 1995? -stevenM&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Existence confirmed? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps I was hasty. I will reconsider. Any other sources I might find enlightening, perhaps from a YEC perspective? [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 15:16, 7 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Talk:Atheistic Style#Black Holes]] covers it quite well. I don't know of any evidence from a '''reliable''' source that shows the existence of Black holes. This &amp;quot;can't be directly observed&amp;quot; thing reminds me a bit too much of evolution. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 12:16, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Even wikipedia's article notes that all of the different pieces of evidence of a black hole are problematic and can be explained by other sources. [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 12:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::This is why the article starts by stating &amp;quot;A black hole is a '''theoretical''' mass with an escape velocity greater than the speed of light. They cannot be observed directly, but several have been identified via indirect observation&amp;quot;  I also don't see how NASA or UCLA Berkely are unreliable sources for astronomy.  As for &amp;quot;can't be directly observed&amp;quot;,there are numerous articles on CP related to Intelligent Design that don't rely on direct observations of a designer to discuss the apparent presence of design in nature.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The beauty of science that it's always open to review and reassessment as new discoveries come to light.  In time man's understanding of Black Holes may be different from this article, but we owe the readers the best current explanations available.  I'm not suggesting censorship - all credible alternate theories should be listed, but stating that there have been no observations of one is false - by definition they are not directly observable, so proving they exist relies on indirect observation and physics.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:38, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::There is no place called &amp;quot;UCLA Berkely&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::ID is bolstered by the direct observation available from Genesis.&lt;br /&gt;
:::The best explanation is not always the explanation espoused by Californians.&lt;br /&gt;
:::We know how our universe began. If NASA &amp;amp; discovery.com deny it, they lose credibility, and their other statements come under greater scrutiny. If you met someone today who insisted that the sky is red and that Sears closes at 10, you would be wise to check the store hours yourself. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 13:58, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, my mistake regarding Berkely notwithstanding, my last reversion is based on two simple things.  The word &amp;quot;is&amp;quot; should not be replaced by  &amp;quot;would be&amp;quot; - it ''is'' a characteristic of black holes within the theory that describes them.  Second, the use of [[Big Science]] as a term on CP was started by an admitted parodist, and equating NASA with it, frankly comes across as parody as well.  Instead of diluting references to good science, spend more time supporting alternate explanations constructively.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 14:07, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Would be&amp;quot; is appropriate for hypothetical things. We say &amp;quot;Dole would have been a better President than Clinton,&amp;quot;  not &amp;quot;Dole was a better President than Clinton,&amp;quot; even &amp;quot;within a theory that describes&amp;quot; Dole as being elected.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Big Science&amp;quot; was used in ''[[Expelled]]''. You don't think that was parody, do you?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Berkely&amp;quot; isn't a place, either.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It seems like I'm the only one trying to make constructive edits towards a compromise. I guess this is not surprising, given the content on [[User:DinsdaleP]]. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::BHarlan, I believe that you do not understand a small but important bit of information, most astronomical discoveries are collaborative efforts usually initiated by small independent astronomers.  When you say big science you could classify biosciences like that, but astronomy is totally different.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 14:19, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::The so-called &amp;quot;evidence&amp;quot; for Black holes does not fit a pattern like the one you describe. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not making any other changes to the revision just posted by Aschlafly.  To BHarlan, I make no apologies for my User Page content.  If the CP leadership wishes to block me over my [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/DinsdaleP contributions] they have the right to do so at any time, but I feel that my efforts here are constructive even when I disagree with others.  Feel free to have the last word on this, I'm moving on to other topics.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 14:45, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Black holes have been spotted by a number of well-respected astronomical institutes for decades, with those discoveries tested and confirmed repeatedly.  Your edits are unsupported by either fact or citation Andy, so under the rules youelf created I have no choice but to revert your edits, whereas the edits saying that black holes have been spotted are fully cited with references from reputable sources including NASA, an organisation fully backed by all US Governments, including conservative governments, since its inception.-[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 15:47, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your sarcastic edit comments are not welcome here. You might want to check &amp;quot;youelf&amp;quot;, else you might end up wrecking youelf.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, you always have a choice! Do you deny this choice? That is a typical sentiment of materialists. If you do not believe in your soul, you will receive a nasty surprise pretty soon, and it won't just be the non-existence of black holes!&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, that is not how &amp;quot;whereas&amp;quot; is used in standard English.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, NASA has taken a sad left turn as of late. This is one of the reasons the U.S.A.F. has its own space program. Do you see?&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, may God bless you. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 16:10, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::My my, I miss a 's' in a typo and you decide to launch an ad hominem attack&amp;amp;hellip; Very 'christian' of you, or then again; not.  &lt;br /&gt;
::''&amp;quot;Also, that is not how &amp;quot;whereas&amp;quot; is used in standard English&amp;quot;.''  That  might not  be how you use it with your standard of English, but as anyone who has been taught the correct way to use the English language knows, it's perfectly correct.  Oh, and a little, free, friendly lesson regarding the use of written English : You never start consecutive paragraphs with the same word unless it is absolutely necessary, which, in your above post it wasn't.  If you are having trouble with your synonyms I heartily recommend using a thesaurus.  &lt;br /&gt;
::The military space research programmes exist solely to explore the possible military applications of space.  All civilian space programmes, including government projects run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.).  This is common knowledge amongst those who know anything about this subject.  &lt;br /&gt;
::Stating that black holes don't exist is akin to believing the moon landing was faked.  The existence of black holes and the fact that they have been spotted is undisputed by anyone who has the knowledge and experience to know what they are looking at.  I have had the privilege of seeing two of these black holes myself.  They are out there and have been spotted, and that is a direct, firsthand witness statement.  &lt;br /&gt;
::May you be touched by his noodly appendage, or if that isn't your cup of tea, may you be blessed by the goat Heidrún.  RAmen.-[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 17:06, 10 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::* It's &amp;quot;an 's'&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;a 's'&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you missed just one 's', then that part of the sentence would read &amp;quot;under the rules youself created&amp;quot;, which is ''still'' wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you missed an 'r' and an 's', then that part of the sentence would read &amp;quot;under the rules yourself created&amp;quot;, which is '''still''' wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* An [[ad hominem]] attack means to reply to the logic in your arguments by attacking your character. I did no such thing. I didn't attack your character in any way. I asked if you were a materialist, then pointed out that materialists are Hell-bound. If you have a problem with your final resting place, I suggest you reconsider your path in life. I do not suggest that the Hell-bound are never able to make logical arguments.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* &amp;quot;Christian&amp;quot; is capitalized. Did you leave it uncapitalized on purpose? If so, I suggest you blaspheme somewhere else.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* That is not how semicolons are used in standard English.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* You need a comma after &amp;quot;but&amp;quot; for the aside.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* You do not need commas around &amp;quot;friendly&amp;quot;, just like you don't need commas around &amp;quot;red&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;big red inflatable ball&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::* I will not discuss the friendly lesson here, except to note that stylistic choices are different than maintaining correctness. Comma placement and word choice are different beasts.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* The sentence starting &amp;quot;All civilian&amp;quot; has no main verb, so I can't respond to it.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Hyperbole about the moon landing is simply rhetoric. If there is no argument, there can be no response.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Black holes can't be seen. What I suppose you mean is that you infer their existence. Your inference is not particularly convincing.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* I am done with this pointless, blasphemous discussion. It is not encyclopedic. I suggest you contribute to this encyclopedia. It is a good way to improve your writing skills. I have been contributing partially for that reason. Maybe you could join me in adding articles and value, rather than taking the name of my Lord in vain? &lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you decide not to, you may have the last word here, as I will no longer reply to this silliness. I hope you will decide to contribute instead. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 18:33, 10 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: *Sigh* ''&amp;quot;a wit, an arrow, across the head it passed, an apple not pierced today&amp;quot;'', an 'r' and an 's', my apologies, how can such typos be left to pass, expecially when they are nothing to do with the argument at hand, well done for picking up such niggling detail, and yet avoiding the point of the argument.  Admittedly I missed the n in an, but again, a typo, they happen.  ''&amp;quot;Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here&amp;quot;'', how does evidence from NASA count as anonymous evidence?&amp;amp;hellip;at all?&amp;amp;hellip;in any way?&amp;amp;hellip;whatsoever? As for an ad hominen attack, your argument provided no evidence against the existence of black holes, merely an attack on myself, the purest definition of ad hominen (a course in Latin will help you there).  Christian or christian, depends on how you want to write it and on your own beliefs.  Me, not my belief, and as I don't believe I cannot blaspheme, after all, how can you blaspheme against something that does not exist to be blasphemed?  Use of semicolons in standard English?  Again, I refer you to the fact the your standard of English might not be sufficient to use them in such regard.  I recommend increasing your quality of English by beginning with Chaucer and reading your way up.  At some point you will realise that the use of English in any form is an art, not a science, and that language is to be used in such a way as to provoke delight, wonder and thought with its writing, and beyond the obvious rules of form, there are no hard and fast rules, merely that of metre, pace and illumination.  ''&amp;quot;The sentence starting &amp;quot;All civilian&amp;quot; has no main verb, so I can't respond to it&amp;quot;'', '''run''', it's a verb, hard to miss, I'll admit to missing a comma (the sentence should read ''&amp;quot;All civilian space programmes, including government projects, run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)&amp;quot;'', but missing the word '''run''' *shakes head in disbelief*:  if you insist on a purer form for that sentence, how about &amp;quot;All civilian space programmes, including government projects, are run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)&amp;quot;, but all things being equal, both sentences say the same thing.  Moon landing = the sum of evidence gathered concerning the existence of black holes, and that they have been spotted, is greater than the evidence that the moon landing occurred in 1969, hence the corollary. ''&amp;quot;Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God&amp;quot;'', I found it offensive that you forced your beliefs on me, now you have found it offensive when I have forced my beliefs on you, with luck you will have learnt a lesson there, don't force your beliefs and prayers on me and I will return the favour by not blessing you with a little sarcastic FSM (oh, and a little FYI, the word graven means carved and I'm sure that the old FSM hasn't been carved yet and, in addition, I doubt that there are any extant carvings of Thor's goats, although I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong in that regard.)--[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 22:13, 13 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have researched an extensive amount about black holes, and am about to add more information to the article that I hope will prove to be interesting and useful (I will, of course, cite my sources). I am also adding a couple of updates, as some of the information in the article is dated. As a topic about which scientists are still learning, that happens a lot. I hope the updates will improve the quality of the article and its use for educational purposes. [[User:BlueMoon|BlueMoon]] 15:26, 24 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Impossible? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;A black hole is a theoretical prediction of the theory of relativity. It is impossible to prove that a black hole does not exist, and thus it fails the falsifiability requirement of science.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Actually in science we cannot prove with 100% certainty that ''anything'' does not exist, you cannot prove a negative.  This opening sentence needs to be rewritten first for that reason, also for the fact that black holes have been indirectly observed via Accretion disks, gas jets, gravity lensing, radiation emissions, and other orbits of other stellar bodies.  Also there is no other valid explanation in science for the aforementioned effects of a black hole that we observe. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 17:00, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:No, that's the point- to be scientific, something has to be able to be proven wrong. That is a major part of the scientific method. For example, God is not a scientific concept, because you cannot disprove God. But to be science, one of the criterion is that the idea be able to be disproven.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Falsifiability is not the ''only'' criterion for whether something is scientific, so perhaps black holes are not ''unscientific.'' But that opening is pretty much accurate. [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 17:50, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Black holes are falsifiable as a theory, because the observations generally accepted as caused by black holes ''could'' be causes something else, however there is no alternative theory ''at present'' to explain the phenomenon.  However you cannot prove that a black hole ''could never'' exist just as you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist.  God is not a scientific theory not because it is impossible to absolutely disprove God (impossible to prove that God could never possibly exist) but because the supernatural cannot be shown to exist through science, which deals only with the natural universe, if you could present a theory God existed in science, that god would no longer be supernatural by definition.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Honestly I don't understand the objection to black holes, there is no conservative reason for it. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 19:04, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The existence of black holes is ''not'' falsifiable.  Surely you agree with that.  Black holes cannot be observed either.  Addison explained the flaw well above, but you seem intent on sticking with your beliefs.  Believe what you like, but black holes do not satisfy any sensible definition of science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:37, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The possible existence of anything is not falsifiable, black holes, quarks, gods, even godzilla, only theories are falsifiable, such as the theory that explain what black holes are and how they work.  The present theories of black holes are falsifiable, but so far no one has successfully debunked them, or offer an alternate scientific theory for the phenomenon attributed to the effects and properties of black holes.  We cannot observe an isolated quark directly, but we accept that theory. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: However I cannot change one's mind, that is fine, I made my objections known, I am not going to step on people's toes by attempting to change the page, I just believe it is scientifically incorrect in it's proclamation and could stand to be improved for a better article. I have said what I believe needed to be said and will end my part here, anyone feel free to respond with the last word or contact me privately. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 21:07, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thank you for your interest. Note that atoms have actually been observed (in refutation of what you said above, &amp;quot;you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist&amp;quot;. I don't think the article will be changed though. Black holes are sort of on the fence between observable, testable physics, and &amp;quot;theoretical&amp;quot; physics, e.g. string theory. There are a million sources where you can get the standard overview of black holes. Why not have a different view here? Wikipedia does not even ''mention'' the issue of falsifiability, so we are doing a service to the scientific method by at least bringing it up- even if you think the article's conclusion is wrong. [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 21:23, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::In addition to Addison's comments, note that some theories ''are'' [[falsifiable]] (such as Newton's theory of gravity), while other theories are ''not'' falsifiable, such as the theory that black holes must exist or [[string theory]].  And when a theory is not falsifiable, it is not science.  If BMcP proposes an alternative definition of science, then let's hear it, but I doubt he'll do better than [[Karl Popper]] in making [[falsifiability]] part of the definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:45, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Guys, this is becoming quite the argument; however, it is unnecessary because the idea that black holes exist ''is'' falsifiable.  If NASA sends probes out to nearby black holes (which would take a long time, but it's possible), and they all turn out to be ancient Spartans in spaceships or whatever, then scientists will  conclude that black holes don't exist and start working on how Spartans came to be in space and why they have accretion disks, etc. So black holes are falsifiable, and this argument is a source of unnecessary tension. [[User:BlueMoon|BlueMoon]] 12:55, 8 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't get this non-falsifiable argument. If we see light from a star, then it is not a black hole. Any claim that it is a black hole is then falsified. Black hole theory says that a star becomes a black hole whenever its mass goes inside its Schwarzschild radius, it becomes a black hole. So if we ever find a star that emits light and has its mass inside its Schwarzschild radius, then the theory is falsified. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:32, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:The problem with that argument is that we live light years away, so what we could be seeing at one moment could be just the beginning before the light is swallowed into the black hole. --[[User:ChrisZ|ChrisZ]] 11:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, we can observe the radius, mass, and light all at the same time. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:07, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Should we change the article then, seeing how there's no rebuttal to [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]]'s post regarding the falsifiability of the black hole theory? [[User:ATang|ATang]] 11:03, 6 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: RSchlafly is absolutely right, as far as anything a graduate student could say might &amp;quot;validate&amp;quot; the statements of an actual PhD.  But an additional argument: it wouldn't even be necessary to use astronomical observations to invalidate the theory of black holes.  A large enough super collider - perhaps the LHC, perhaps a more powerful device - could discover a quark degeneracy pressure, or some other currently-unknown mechanism, which might offer a potentially infinite resistance to collapse, or, pressure so great at certain densities that an impossibly large amount of matter would be necessary to form a black hole.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I'm not going to remove this material yet, since I see Andy put it there, but I hope Mr. Schlafly will read this page and reconsider.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 14:46, 8 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: There are some untestable statements that are commonly made about black holes. One might even argue that statements about the interior of a black hole are unfalsifiable, because we cannot see the inside. But black hole theory does have a lot of observable consequences, so I think that the article is misleading. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:12, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: How might one falsify the basic assertion about black holes:  that black holes exist such that light cannot escape?  Every time one observes light escaping, he simply concludes that it is not a black hole.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:31, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Mr. Schlafly, you're absolutely right that the general claim, &amp;quot;There are mysterious regions of space from which light cannot escape&amp;quot; is an unverifiable claim.  Black holes don't refer to this statement - they refer to the specific statement, &amp;quot;It is possible to concentrate a certain amount of mass, so that the gravity of that mass prevents light from escaping.&amp;quot;  This could be falsified by experiments in particle accelerators (possibly the LHC, I'm not familiar enough with it to know) which could demonstrate that such concentration of matter is impossible - that degeneracy pressures, currently unknown, prevent such it.  This would falsify the claim that black holes exist. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 11:52, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: I have an open mind about this, but fail to see how an inability to generate a black hole using a generator would falsify the existence of black holes in outer space.  Most likely those who believe in black holes would simply say that higher and higher energies or densities are needed to generate it in particle accelerators.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:16, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: You're right that failure to create a microscopic black hole in a lab wouldn't falsify the idea that they can form.  What I'm claiming is that research which aims, not to create microscopic black holes, but to gain more insight into the forces that govern the behavior of sub atomic particles, might unearth evidence that would refute black holes.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Here's how:  right now, the theory on black hole formation states that as matter accumulates, first electron degeneracy pressure is overcome (that is, the structure of the matter in question would be not atoms side by side, but atomic nuclei side  by side with no electrons in between), then the nuclear degeneracy pressure is overcome, that is, one would not longer have nuclei side by side, but neutrons and protons side by side (a neutron star), and then finally, this neutron degeneracy pressure is overcome and the matter becomes so dense it is contained by its own Schwarzchild radius and becomes a black hole.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: It is entirely plausible that a particle accelerator of sufficient power could concentrate matter to overcome the neutron degeneracy pressure only to discover a quark degeneracy pressure, or some other force.  It is also possible that this new force would require SO MUCH matter to be overcome, as to be unphysical (for example, it might take more matter than is currently believed to exist to overcome the pressure).  If this pressure was to prevent matter from being denser than the Schwarzschild limit, then the claim that black holes exist would be forever disproven and falsified.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:43, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Additional note:  As RSchlafly points out, there are many claims about black holes which ARE unfalsifiable, currently - as he points out, claims about the interior of the event horizon are not falsifiable. Similarly, predictions regarding their presence in certain locations are not falsifiable by any means we yet possess.  The same criticism could be leveled at my above description of an experiment in nuclear-density matter.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:56, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::: We cannot determine what is happening in the &amp;quot;interior&amp;quot; (inside the event horizon) but that doesn't make a black hole itself not falsifiable.  We are not sure what the interior of a neutron star is at all, but I think everyone here agrees they do exist.  Also just because you cannot visually see something (such as a black hole, where light cannot escape from inside the event horizon) doesn't mean it isn't there or falsifiable.  Most astronomical study of space is not in the visual spectrum, and there are many ways to determine the existence of a black hole.  I also must point out, there has been no alternative hypotheses to explain the gravitational effects we presently attribute to black holes. Also, as pointed out before, if we are able to find an object of sufficient mass within the Schwarzschild radius, which normally would continue to collapse into a gravitational singularity (Black Hole) ''but has not'', that would disprove the theory of Black holes right there, or in other words falsify them.  For example, if we found an object the same mass of our Sun, and was smaller then its Schwarzschild radius of around 3 km (the Schwarzschild radius for an object of that mass) and it '''did not''' collapse into a black hole, then the theory of Black Holes ''would be proven false''. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 08:14, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: I hate to disagree with BMcP, because we share the same goal here (getting the non-falsifiability statement removed from the article), but there was a lot of bad science in that response and we should have an argument based in facts and truth.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: '''I also must point out, there has been no alternative hypotheses to explain the gravitational effects we presently attribute to black holes.'''&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: That's not entirely true.  In my previous posts, I mentioned that discovering a sufficiently powerful quark degeneracy pressure could disprove the existence of &amp;quot;black holes.&amp;quot;  Objects which are prevent from gravitational collapse by quark degeneracy pressure, &amp;quot;quark stars,&amp;quot; could explain a good deal of phenomenon currently attributed to black holes could be very adequately explained by such phenomenon - extraordinary x-ray sources, quasars, all these rely on on the affects of a large amount of mass concentrated in a small space, not necessarily a Schwarschild radius.  Which brings me to&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: '''if we are able to find an object of sufficient mass within the Schwarzschild radius, which normally would continue to collapse into a gravitational singularity (Black Hole) ''but has not'', that would disprove the theory of Black holes right there, or in other words falsify them.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: Any object which is completely contained in a Schwarzschild radius is automatically a black hole, regardless of whether or not it has collapsed into a singularity or not.  Furthermore, since the gravitation field exterior to the schwarzschild radius would be the same regardless of where the mass inside was a singularity or not, so there would be no way to tell.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: I still think the best argument for falsifiability is the experiment I presented earlier into quark degeneracy pressure. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:18, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: I was not aware of a hypothesis that offers a possibility of quark degeneracy pressure that would be powerful enough to resist the effects of gravity even if the mass would normally be large enough to collapse into a black hole.  I agree if such pressure existed it would disprove our current theories of black hole formation.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: You are right, it doesn't have to be a singularity, although that is what current theories suggest happens, that gravity continues to collapse the matter inside the event horizon to the point of a singularity.[http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html]  However that does not have to be true for the mass to collapse within the Schwarzschild radius to be a black hole, just that their is sufficient gravity to force particles within the horizon to be deformed in their path so they cannot leave.  It is just theorized at the center of a black hole is the singularity[http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/singularity.html].  That being said, it expected that a theory of quantum gravity will feature black holes without singularities.[http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_hawk.html] [http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980420b.html].  It isn't important either way, what is important is the question, are black holes falsifiable?  I think you and others have already offered examples of yes. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 13:23, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== [[Falsifiability]] ==&lt;br /&gt;
(no text was inserted here, but the edit summary was &amp;quot;the falsifiability is undeniable and should not be censored, Physicists should be taught about falsifiability as part of their curriculum&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Based on KSorenson's remarks and what I know about the curricula at schools I've attended, physicists are indeed taught about it.  It seems a stretch to say that the falsifiability is &amp;quot;undeniable&amp;quot; when in fact every editor except you has denied it. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 23:15, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry, somehow my text above was misplaced.  Thanks for substituting in what I meant!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Those who have denied that black holes lack [[falsifiability]] really seem to be denying that falsifiability should be a limit on physics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::KSorenson cited a laundry list of philosophy-type requirements of physics majors, but conspicuously absent was emphasis on falsifiability.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Like most college majors, physics students repeat what they're taught.  If they received good grades, then it becomes even harder for them to question it.  But keep in mind that the people doing the teaching are the most liberal group in the world, and they almost never encourage the student to open his mind and think critically for himself.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:23, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Please read again, Aschlafly. I specifically cited Karl Popper as part of the curriculum in undergraduate courses on the philosophy of science. In case it's slipped your mind, Popper basically invented falsifiability as the criterion for distinguishing science from non-science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Incidentally, Popper cited Einstein's theories as exemplars of rigorously falsifiable science when he constructed his criterion. He wrote about it in contrast to the quote-unquote &amp;quot;scientific&amp;quot; theories of Marx. By a happy coincidence, the very same theories of Einstein's that Popper found so admirable are the ones we're talking about here. So can you ''please,'' and I'm asking for the third time now, clarify just exactly what your gripe is?--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:36, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Hello; I'm the user who edited this article after KSorenson.  If I may jump in to this heated discussion going on at at least [[User_Talk:KSorenson|two places]] :  I think what Andy's saying is that black holes themselves can never be proven to not exist, because (by definition) no one can see them or visit them and return.  I think what KSorenson's saying is that [[general relativity]] states black holes are possible, and that general relativity can be falsified (e.g. by sending probes to probe the earth's gravitational field).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Of course, just because general relativity hasn't been ''disproven'' doesn't mean that it's been proven.  There could be a better theory which accounts for all the gravity-probe data and states that black holes don't exist.  We don't know yet; that's the wonder of science:  God's always put more out there for us to discover!  So, we don't know that black holes do exist - that claim isn't falsifiable; we'd need to survey every square millimeter of space and say &amp;quot;there isn't a black hole ''here''!&amp;quot;.  But, the theory that states they ''can'' exist is falsifiable.  I tried to reflect this dichotomy in my edits to this article. -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:46, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You make excellent points, particularly in your last paragraph above.  The introductory paragraph to [[black hole]] would benefit from this, and please feel free to edit it again (I apologize if others deleted your work).  Note, however, that it is not very practical to devise a test that could falsify General Relativity, and falsifying General Relativity would not falsify the claim that [[black holes]] exist.  Black holes are far too popular in science magazines and liberal publications like the New York Times to &amp;quot;go away&amp;quot; that easily.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:52, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::On Popper and relativity, Christoph von Mettenheim (http://elm.eeng.dcu.ie/~tkpw/tcr/volume-01/number-03/node3.html) writes: &amp;quot;Most of you will know of Popper's admiration for Einstein, and how he was inspired by the theory of relativity (and by its high refutability in contrast to the irrefutability of psychoanalysis) more than by anything else to develop the criterion of falsifiability as a demarcation between science and metaphysics (Popper 1976, pp. 37-38).&amp;quot;  As KSorenson has already noted, relativity was the theory that inspired the notion of falsifiability in the first place.  The claim that &amp;quot;it is not very practical to devise a test that could falsify General Relativity&amp;quot; is absurd on the face of it. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 10:02, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Popper's personal views are irrelevant; no one here says that Popper was a genius who was always right.  It's [[falsifiability]] that is at issue, and the resistance to that simple, logical concept is astounding.  People can teach Popper all they like, but it's clear that physics majors are not learning fully about falsifiability.  String theory wouldn't exist in physics departments if they were.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::If tests existed that might falsify General Relativity, then in the nearly 100 years since its proposal we would have seen many of them.  Instead, as the latest discussion (and the famous 1919 solar eclipse) illustrate, margins of error in the experiments are typically greater than the deviations predicted by the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:13, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: (unindent)&lt;br /&gt;
: Andy raises an interesting point.  In theory, it's easy to test general relativity - take KSorenson's gravity probe, for example.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;This wouldn't absolutely prove it; there might always be a better theory out there.  But nothing can ''ever'' be absolutely proven in science - the point is that this test could disprove it.&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;  So, in theory, it's falsifiable.  &amp;quot;[falsifiable|A proposition or theory is falsifiable if it is hypothetically possible for a test or observation to prove it false].&amp;quot;  Of course, a hypothetical future theory might still include black holes (there's an infinite number of possible theories), but the possibility of black holes according to general relativity (how's that for a mouthful?) is falsifiable, because general relativity is falsifiable.  Or, to try to say it more simply:  the possibility of the particular sort of black hole predicted by general relativity (with exactly these properties, et cetera) is falsifiable.  I hope I made my verbiage understandable enough for you all to agree or disagree?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:But as you point out, the solar eclipse experiment didn't test general relativity in practice:  the margins of error were too big.  (I don't know if that's still true with modern experiments; could someone who knows more about that fill me in?)  So, while it's theoretically falsifiable, it's possible that general relativity hasn't actually been tested yet... -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 10:36, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v63/p731/fulltext.pdf Here] is a nice review of a variety of experimental tests of general relativity, along with discussion of other experiments that may be undertaken in the future. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 10:43, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::That all sounds basically right to me, EvanW. (Can I call you EvanW?) But from where I sit, it's even simpler.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity has been and is being tested, and so far the tests have confirmed the theory. That might change any minute, but it's still true so far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity says that black holes are possible, and that if they exist they'll have certain properties.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*We've seen objects in the sky that have those properties, and that aren't predicted by any other existing theory. We're studying those objects as hard as we can given the limits of distance, to see if they really do walk and quack like ducks. Until we see something un-ducky, we say &amp;quot;Yeah, those look like ducks to us.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::This really isn't complicated as far as I can tell, and I'm really baffled as to why we're still yaking about it amongst ourselves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Aschlafly, if you want to expand the living daylights out of the &amp;quot;Controversy&amp;quot; section, I'll be right there by your side, cheering you on and helping in any way I can. As long as your contributions aren't misleading or incorrect. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but my gut tells me that EvanW and MarkGall would make the same promise. So why are we still bickering? Can't we improve the article instead? I know having to respond here is taking away from the time I set aside today to add to the [[general theory of relativity]] article. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 10:54, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Mark cited Clifford Will's government-funded 2004 article on proof for General Relativity, but that paper is very &amp;quot;thin&amp;quot; and in a mere 15-minute review several weaknesses are apparent.  But thanks for the citation, Mark.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: This is a site where logic prevails.  If you want to say that black holes are consistent with General Relativity (though rejected by Einstein), and General Relativity might be falsifiable (though tests will sufficient accuracy are difficult and expensive), that's fine.  But black holes themselves, like life in outer space, are not falsifiable.  It's basic logic, and that doesn't change whether all accept the logic or not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: There's a broader point here.  Why the big push for black holes by liberals, and big protests against any objection to them?  If it turned out empirically that promoting black holes tends to cause people to read the Bible less, would you still push this so much?  Certainly there is no practical justification to pushing black holes; no one will ever be helped by them in any way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:03, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: I haven't had time to read the Clifford Will paper yet, and I don't think I've got the expertise to judge it well.  But, I think we've come to an agreement here:&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# Black holes themselves can't be falsified (except by surveying every cubic millimeter of space)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# General relativity says they are possible.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# General relativity is falsifiable (theoretically), but it's hard to falsify.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# Therefore, the possibility of black-holes-as-specified-by-general-relativity is falsifiable.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: As for why the media's pushing black holes - hey, they're interesting to read about!  Myself, by Occam's razor, I don't think any more explanation is needed.  As for why KSorenson and I are pushing them - I can't speak for KSorenson, but I'm trying to defend falsifiability and the concept of a scientific theory, just like (I think) you are:  general relativity is a legitimate scientific theory, because it can theoretically be falsified. -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 12:15, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Evan, I appreciate your comments and have learned from them.  My question was directed at KSorenson and Mark, not to you.  But using your answer, it doesn't explain the insistence by liberals on downplaying or even censoring criticism of black holes.  And one key question is unanswered:  if promoting black holes caused people to read the Bible less, would you want to promote them?  They certainly won't ever help anyone, while the Bible might.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:22, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Aschlafly, you seem to be more interested in arguing (now apparently about politics and religion of all things) than you are in improving the article. This is fine. If you want to contribute to the article in any way at all, I'll be here to help however I can. I would ask you to please think carefully before adding a misleading assertion like &amp;quot;Einstein rejected black holes&amp;quot; (which doesn't tell the whole truth) or &amp;quot;black hole theory is unfalsifiable,&amp;quot; because doing so would just hurt the article, misinform anyone who reads it and waste the time of any editor who feels like trying to fix it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Meanwhile, I'm going to finish filling out the [[general theory of relativity]] article. If you find some aspect of ''that'' one that you want to argue about in the same way you've argued about this article … well, don't bother. I've grown weary of the endless, pointless, going-nowhere talk, and I'm going to focus on making constructive contributions until I get bored of it, or I run out of useful things to add. You're obviously free to take those contributions and use them as you will, or throw them in the trash. It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::And finally, as to whether &amp;quot;this is a site where logic prevails,&amp;quot; I've always been an actions-speak-louder-than-words sort of girl. The article is here; I have made my contribution to it. Whether logic (or for that matter, intellectual honesty) prevails is something I look forward to finding out. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 12:29, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::KSorenson, I've responded to your concerns and answered your questions and Evan has proposed a logical, clear solution.  You find no fault with it, but ignore it.  I asked you a simple question, &amp;quot;if promoting black holes cause people to read the Bible less, would you want to promote them?&amp;quot;  Not only do you refuse to answer, you rant on and on.  Please, please open your mind, for your sake.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:39, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::Let me say this one last time: I'm not arguing with you. This off-topic nonsense on talk pages has been a waste of everyone's time, and I'm choosing not to participate in it any more. Please continue if you like, but understand that that's my final word on the subject. I hope we can see eye to eye on this, and treat each other respectfully from here on out. Let me know if I can be of any assistance if you guys want to further improve the article. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 13:01, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Black_hole&amp;diff=719697</id>
		<title>Talk:Black hole</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Black_hole&amp;diff=719697"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T17:29:14Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Extremely high density==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Technically, it's undefined, no? [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 07:52, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
did you know the 'Black Holes FAQ', which there is a link to, was  written in 1995? -stevenM&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Existence confirmed? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps I was hasty. I will reconsider. Any other sources I might find enlightening, perhaps from a YEC perspective? [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 15:16, 7 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Talk:Atheistic Style#Black Holes]] covers it quite well. I don't know of any evidence from a '''reliable''' source that shows the existence of Black holes. This &amp;quot;can't be directly observed&amp;quot; thing reminds me a bit too much of evolution. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 12:16, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Even wikipedia's article notes that all of the different pieces of evidence of a black hole are problematic and can be explained by other sources. [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 12:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::This is why the article starts by stating &amp;quot;A black hole is a '''theoretical''' mass with an escape velocity greater than the speed of light. They cannot be observed directly, but several have been identified via indirect observation&amp;quot;  I also don't see how NASA or UCLA Berkely are unreliable sources for astronomy.  As for &amp;quot;can't be directly observed&amp;quot;,there are numerous articles on CP related to Intelligent Design that don't rely on direct observations of a designer to discuss the apparent presence of design in nature.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The beauty of science that it's always open to review and reassessment as new discoveries come to light.  In time man's understanding of Black Holes may be different from this article, but we owe the readers the best current explanations available.  I'm not suggesting censorship - all credible alternate theories should be listed, but stating that there have been no observations of one is false - by definition they are not directly observable, so proving they exist relies on indirect observation and physics.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:38, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::There is no place called &amp;quot;UCLA Berkely&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::ID is bolstered by the direct observation available from Genesis.&lt;br /&gt;
:::The best explanation is not always the explanation espoused by Californians.&lt;br /&gt;
:::We know how our universe began. If NASA &amp;amp; discovery.com deny it, they lose credibility, and their other statements come under greater scrutiny. If you met someone today who insisted that the sky is red and that Sears closes at 10, you would be wise to check the store hours yourself. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 13:58, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, my mistake regarding Berkely notwithstanding, my last reversion is based on two simple things.  The word &amp;quot;is&amp;quot; should not be replaced by  &amp;quot;would be&amp;quot; - it ''is'' a characteristic of black holes within the theory that describes them.  Second, the use of [[Big Science]] as a term on CP was started by an admitted parodist, and equating NASA with it, frankly comes across as parody as well.  Instead of diluting references to good science, spend more time supporting alternate explanations constructively.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 14:07, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Would be&amp;quot; is appropriate for hypothetical things. We say &amp;quot;Dole would have been a better President than Clinton,&amp;quot;  not &amp;quot;Dole was a better President than Clinton,&amp;quot; even &amp;quot;within a theory that describes&amp;quot; Dole as being elected.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Big Science&amp;quot; was used in ''[[Expelled]]''. You don't think that was parody, do you?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Berkely&amp;quot; isn't a place, either.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It seems like I'm the only one trying to make constructive edits towards a compromise. I guess this is not surprising, given the content on [[User:DinsdaleP]]. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::BHarlan, I believe that you do not understand a small but important bit of information, most astronomical discoveries are collaborative efforts usually initiated by small independent astronomers.  When you say big science you could classify biosciences like that, but astronomy is totally different.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 14:19, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::The so-called &amp;quot;evidence&amp;quot; for Black holes does not fit a pattern like the one you describe. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not making any other changes to the revision just posted by Aschlafly.  To BHarlan, I make no apologies for my User Page content.  If the CP leadership wishes to block me over my [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/DinsdaleP contributions] they have the right to do so at any time, but I feel that my efforts here are constructive even when I disagree with others.  Feel free to have the last word on this, I'm moving on to other topics.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 14:45, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Black holes have been spotted by a number of well-respected astronomical institutes for decades, with those discoveries tested and confirmed repeatedly.  Your edits are unsupported by either fact or citation Andy, so under the rules youelf created I have no choice but to revert your edits, whereas the edits saying that black holes have been spotted are fully cited with references from reputable sources including NASA, an organisation fully backed by all US Governments, including conservative governments, since its inception.-[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 15:47, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your sarcastic edit comments are not welcome here. You might want to check &amp;quot;youelf&amp;quot;, else you might end up wrecking youelf.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, you always have a choice! Do you deny this choice? That is a typical sentiment of materialists. If you do not believe in your soul, you will receive a nasty surprise pretty soon, and it won't just be the non-existence of black holes!&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, that is not how &amp;quot;whereas&amp;quot; is used in standard English.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, NASA has taken a sad left turn as of late. This is one of the reasons the U.S.A.F. has its own space program. Do you see?&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, may God bless you. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 16:10, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::My my, I miss a 's' in a typo and you decide to launch an ad hominem attack&amp;amp;hellip; Very 'christian' of you, or then again; not.  &lt;br /&gt;
::''&amp;quot;Also, that is not how &amp;quot;whereas&amp;quot; is used in standard English&amp;quot;.''  That  might not  be how you use it with your standard of English, but as anyone who has been taught the correct way to use the English language knows, it's perfectly correct.  Oh, and a little, free, friendly lesson regarding the use of written English : You never start consecutive paragraphs with the same word unless it is absolutely necessary, which, in your above post it wasn't.  If you are having trouble with your synonyms I heartily recommend using a thesaurus.  &lt;br /&gt;
::The military space research programmes exist solely to explore the possible military applications of space.  All civilian space programmes, including government projects run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.).  This is common knowledge amongst those who know anything about this subject.  &lt;br /&gt;
::Stating that black holes don't exist is akin to believing the moon landing was faked.  The existence of black holes and the fact that they have been spotted is undisputed by anyone who has the knowledge and experience to know what they are looking at.  I have had the privilege of seeing two of these black holes myself.  They are out there and have been spotted, and that is a direct, firsthand witness statement.  &lt;br /&gt;
::May you be touched by his noodly appendage, or if that isn't your cup of tea, may you be blessed by the goat Heidrún.  RAmen.-[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 17:06, 10 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::* It's &amp;quot;an 's'&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;a 's'&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you missed just one 's', then that part of the sentence would read &amp;quot;under the rules youself created&amp;quot;, which is ''still'' wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you missed an 'r' and an 's', then that part of the sentence would read &amp;quot;under the rules yourself created&amp;quot;, which is '''still''' wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* An [[ad hominem]] attack means to reply to the logic in your arguments by attacking your character. I did no such thing. I didn't attack your character in any way. I asked if you were a materialist, then pointed out that materialists are Hell-bound. If you have a problem with your final resting place, I suggest you reconsider your path in life. I do not suggest that the Hell-bound are never able to make logical arguments.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* &amp;quot;Christian&amp;quot; is capitalized. Did you leave it uncapitalized on purpose? If so, I suggest you blaspheme somewhere else.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* That is not how semicolons are used in standard English.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* You need a comma after &amp;quot;but&amp;quot; for the aside.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* You do not need commas around &amp;quot;friendly&amp;quot;, just like you don't need commas around &amp;quot;red&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;big red inflatable ball&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::* I will not discuss the friendly lesson here, except to note that stylistic choices are different than maintaining correctness. Comma placement and word choice are different beasts.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* The sentence starting &amp;quot;All civilian&amp;quot; has no main verb, so I can't respond to it.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Hyperbole about the moon landing is simply rhetoric. If there is no argument, there can be no response.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Black holes can't be seen. What I suppose you mean is that you infer their existence. Your inference is not particularly convincing.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* I am done with this pointless, blasphemous discussion. It is not encyclopedic. I suggest you contribute to this encyclopedia. It is a good way to improve your writing skills. I have been contributing partially for that reason. Maybe you could join me in adding articles and value, rather than taking the name of my Lord in vain? &lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you decide not to, you may have the last word here, as I will no longer reply to this silliness. I hope you will decide to contribute instead. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 18:33, 10 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: *Sigh* ''&amp;quot;a wit, an arrow, across the head it passed, an apple not pierced today&amp;quot;'', an 'r' and an 's', my apologies, how can such typos be left to pass, expecially when they are nothing to do with the argument at hand, well done for picking up such niggling detail, and yet avoiding the point of the argument.  Admittedly I missed the n in an, but again, a typo, they happen.  ''&amp;quot;Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here&amp;quot;'', how does evidence from NASA count as anonymous evidence?&amp;amp;hellip;at all?&amp;amp;hellip;in any way?&amp;amp;hellip;whatsoever? As for an ad hominen attack, your argument provided no evidence against the existence of black holes, merely an attack on myself, the purest definition of ad hominen (a course in Latin will help you there).  Christian or christian, depends on how you want to write it and on your own beliefs.  Me, not my belief, and as I don't believe I cannot blaspheme, after all, how can you blaspheme against something that does not exist to be blasphemed?  Use of semicolons in standard English?  Again, I refer you to the fact the your standard of English might not be sufficient to use them in such regard.  I recommend increasing your quality of English by beginning with Chaucer and reading your way up.  At some point you will realise that the use of English in any form is an art, not a science, and that language is to be used in such a way as to provoke delight, wonder and thought with its writing, and beyond the obvious rules of form, there are no hard and fast rules, merely that of metre, pace and illumination.  ''&amp;quot;The sentence starting &amp;quot;All civilian&amp;quot; has no main verb, so I can't respond to it&amp;quot;'', '''run''', it's a verb, hard to miss, I'll admit to missing a comma (the sentence should read ''&amp;quot;All civilian space programmes, including government projects, run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)&amp;quot;'', but missing the word '''run''' *shakes head in disbelief*:  if you insist on a purer form for that sentence, how about &amp;quot;All civilian space programmes, including government projects, are run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)&amp;quot;, but all things being equal, both sentences say the same thing.  Moon landing = the sum of evidence gathered concerning the existence of black holes, and that they have been spotted, is greater than the evidence that the moon landing occurred in 1969, hence the corollary. ''&amp;quot;Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God&amp;quot;'', I found it offensive that you forced your beliefs on me, now you have found it offensive when I have forced my beliefs on you, with luck you will have learnt a lesson there, don't force your beliefs and prayers on me and I will return the favour by not blessing you with a little sarcastic FSM (oh, and a little FYI, the word graven means carved and I'm sure that the old FSM hasn't been carved yet and, in addition, I doubt that there are any extant carvings of Thor's goats, although I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong in that regard.)--[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 22:13, 13 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have researched an extensive amount about black holes, and am about to add more information to the article that I hope will prove to be interesting and useful (I will, of course, cite my sources). I am also adding a couple of updates, as some of the information in the article is dated. As a topic about which scientists are still learning, that happens a lot. I hope the updates will improve the quality of the article and its use for educational purposes. [[User:BlueMoon|BlueMoon]] 15:26, 24 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Impossible? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;A black hole is a theoretical prediction of the theory of relativity. It is impossible to prove that a black hole does not exist, and thus it fails the falsifiability requirement of science.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Actually in science we cannot prove with 100% certainty that ''anything'' does not exist, you cannot prove a negative.  This opening sentence needs to be rewritten first for that reason, also for the fact that black holes have been indirectly observed via Accretion disks, gas jets, gravity lensing, radiation emissions, and other orbits of other stellar bodies.  Also there is no other valid explanation in science for the aforementioned effects of a black hole that we observe. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 17:00, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:No, that's the point- to be scientific, something has to be able to be proven wrong. That is a major part of the scientific method. For example, God is not a scientific concept, because you cannot disprove God. But to be science, one of the criterion is that the idea be able to be disproven.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Falsifiability is not the ''only'' criterion for whether something is scientific, so perhaps black holes are not ''unscientific.'' But that opening is pretty much accurate. [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 17:50, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Black holes are falsifiable as a theory, because the observations generally accepted as caused by black holes ''could'' be causes something else, however there is no alternative theory ''at present'' to explain the phenomenon.  However you cannot prove that a black hole ''could never'' exist just as you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist.  God is not a scientific theory not because it is impossible to absolutely disprove God (impossible to prove that God could never possibly exist) but because the supernatural cannot be shown to exist through science, which deals only with the natural universe, if you could present a theory God existed in science, that god would no longer be supernatural by definition.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Honestly I don't understand the objection to black holes, there is no conservative reason for it. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 19:04, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The existence of black holes is ''not'' falsifiable.  Surely you agree with that.  Black holes cannot be observed either.  Addison explained the flaw well above, but you seem intent on sticking with your beliefs.  Believe what you like, but black holes do not satisfy any sensible definition of science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:37, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The possible existence of anything is not falsifiable, black holes, quarks, gods, even godzilla, only theories are falsifiable, such as the theory that explain what black holes are and how they work.  The present theories of black holes are falsifiable, but so far no one has successfully debunked them, or offer an alternate scientific theory for the phenomenon attributed to the effects and properties of black holes.  We cannot observe an isolated quark directly, but we accept that theory. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: However I cannot change one's mind, that is fine, I made my objections known, I am not going to step on people's toes by attempting to change the page, I just believe it is scientifically incorrect in it's proclamation and could stand to be improved for a better article. I have said what I believe needed to be said and will end my part here, anyone feel free to respond with the last word or contact me privately. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 21:07, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thank you for your interest. Note that atoms have actually been observed (in refutation of what you said above, &amp;quot;you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist&amp;quot;. I don't think the article will be changed though. Black holes are sort of on the fence between observable, testable physics, and &amp;quot;theoretical&amp;quot; physics, e.g. string theory. There are a million sources where you can get the standard overview of black holes. Why not have a different view here? Wikipedia does not even ''mention'' the issue of falsifiability, so we are doing a service to the scientific method by at least bringing it up- even if you think the article's conclusion is wrong. [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 21:23, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::In addition to Addison's comments, note that some theories ''are'' [[falsifiable]] (such as Newton's theory of gravity), while other theories are ''not'' falsifiable, such as the theory that black holes must exist or [[string theory]].  And when a theory is not falsifiable, it is not science.  If BMcP proposes an alternative definition of science, then let's hear it, but I doubt he'll do better than [[Karl Popper]] in making [[falsifiability]] part of the definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:45, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Guys, this is becoming quite the argument; however, it is unnecessary because the idea that black holes exist ''is'' falsifiable.  If NASA sends probes out to nearby black holes (which would take a long time, but it's possible), and they all turn out to be ancient Spartans in spaceships or whatever, then scientists will  conclude that black holes don't exist and start working on how Spartans came to be in space and why they have accretion disks, etc. So black holes are falsifiable, and this argument is a source of unnecessary tension. [[User:BlueMoon|BlueMoon]] 12:55, 8 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't get this non-falsifiable argument. If we see light from a star, then it is not a black hole. Any claim that it is a black hole is then falsified. Black hole theory says that a star becomes a black hole whenever its mass goes inside its Schwarzschild radius, it becomes a black hole. So if we ever find a star that emits light and has its mass inside its Schwarzschild radius, then the theory is falsified. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:32, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:The problem with that argument is that we live light years away, so what we could be seeing at one moment could be just the beginning before the light is swallowed into the black hole. --[[User:ChrisZ|ChrisZ]] 11:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, we can observe the radius, mass, and light all at the same time. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:07, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Should we change the article then, seeing how there's no rebuttal to [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]]'s post regarding the falsifiability of the black hole theory? [[User:ATang|ATang]] 11:03, 6 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: RSchlafly is absolutely right, as far as anything a graduate student could say might &amp;quot;validate&amp;quot; the statements of an actual PhD.  But an additional argument: it wouldn't even be necessary to use astronomical observations to invalidate the theory of black holes.  A large enough super collider - perhaps the LHC, perhaps a more powerful device - could discover a quark degeneracy pressure, or some other currently-unknown mechanism, which might offer a potentially infinite resistance to collapse, or, pressure so great at certain densities that an impossibly large amount of matter would be necessary to form a black hole.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I'm not going to remove this material yet, since I see Andy put it there, but I hope Mr. Schlafly will read this page and reconsider.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 14:46, 8 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: There are some untestable statements that are commonly made about black holes. One might even argue that statements about the interior of a black hole are unfalsifiable, because we cannot see the inside. But black hole theory does have a lot of observable consequences, so I think that the article is misleading. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:12, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: How might one falsify the basic assertion about black holes:  that black holes exist such that light cannot escape?  Every time one observes light escaping, he simply concludes that it is not a black hole.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:31, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Mr. Schlafly, you're absolutely right that the general claim, &amp;quot;There are mysterious regions of space from which light cannot escape&amp;quot; is an unverifiable claim.  Black holes don't refer to this statement - they refer to the specific statement, &amp;quot;It is possible to concentrate a certain amount of mass, so that the gravity of that mass prevents light from escaping.&amp;quot;  This could be falsified by experiments in particle accelerators (possibly the LHC, I'm not familiar enough with it to know) which could demonstrate that such concentration of matter is impossible - that degeneracy pressures, currently unknown, prevent such it.  This would falsify the claim that black holes exist. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 11:52, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: I have an open mind about this, but fail to see how an inability to generate a black hole using a generator would falsify the existence of black holes in outer space.  Most likely those who believe in black holes would simply say that higher and higher energies or densities are needed to generate it in particle accelerators.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:16, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: You're right that failure to create a microscopic black hole in a lab wouldn't falsify the idea that they can form.  What I'm claiming is that research which aims, not to create microscopic black holes, but to gain more insight into the forces that govern the behavior of sub atomic particles, might unearth evidence that would refute black holes.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Here's how:  right now, the theory on black hole formation states that as matter accumulates, first electron degeneracy pressure is overcome (that is, the structure of the matter in question would be not atoms side by side, but atomic nuclei side  by side with no electrons in between), then the nuclear degeneracy pressure is overcome, that is, one would not longer have nuclei side by side, but neutrons and protons side by side (a neutron star), and then finally, this neutron degeneracy pressure is overcome and the matter becomes so dense it is contained by its own Schwarzchild radius and becomes a black hole.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: It is entirely plausible that a particle accelerator of sufficient power could concentrate matter to overcome the neutron degeneracy pressure only to discover a quark degeneracy pressure, or some other force.  It is also possible that this new force would require SO MUCH matter to be overcome, as to be unphysical (for example, it might take more matter than is currently believed to exist to overcome the pressure).  If this pressure was to prevent matter from being denser than the Schwarzschild limit, then the claim that black holes exist would be forever disproven and falsified.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:43, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Additional note:  As RSchlafly points out, there are many claims about black holes which ARE unfalsifiable, currently - as he points out, claims about the interior of the event horizon are not falsifiable. Similarly, predictions regarding their presence in certain locations are not falsifiable by any means we yet possess.  The same criticism could be leveled at my above description of an experiment in nuclear-density matter.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:56, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::: We cannot determine what is happening in the &amp;quot;interior&amp;quot; (inside the event horizon) but that doesn't make a black hole itself not falsifiable.  We are not sure what the interior of a neutron star is at all, but I think everyone here agrees they do exist.  Also just because you cannot visually see something (such as a black hole, where light cannot escape from inside the event horizon) doesn't mean it isn't there or falsifiable.  Most astronomical study of space is not in the visual spectrum, and there are many ways to determine the existence of a black hole.  I also must point out, there has been no alternative hypotheses to explain the gravitational effects we presently attribute to black holes. Also, as pointed out before, if we are able to find an object of sufficient mass within the Schwarzschild radius, which normally would continue to collapse into a gravitational singularity (Black Hole) ''but has not'', that would disprove the theory of Black holes right there, or in other words falsify them.  For example, if we found an object the same mass of our Sun, and was smaller then its Schwarzschild radius of around 3 km (the Schwarzschild radius for an object of that mass) and it '''did not''' collapse into a black hole, then the theory of Black Holes ''would be proven false''. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 08:14, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: I hate to disagree with BMcP, because we share the same goal here (getting the non-falsifiability statement removed from the article), but there was a lot of bad science in that response and we should have an argument based in facts and truth.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: '''I also must point out, there has been no alternative hypotheses to explain the gravitational effects we presently attribute to black holes.'''&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: That's not entirely true.  In my previous posts, I mentioned that discovering a sufficiently powerful quark degeneracy pressure could disprove the existence of &amp;quot;black holes.&amp;quot;  Objects which are prevent from gravitational collapse by quark degeneracy pressure, &amp;quot;quark stars,&amp;quot; could explain a good deal of phenomenon currently attributed to black holes could be very adequately explained by such phenomenon - extraordinary x-ray sources, quasars, all these rely on on the affects of a large amount of mass concentrated in a small space, not necessarily a Schwarschild radius.  Which brings me to&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: '''if we are able to find an object of sufficient mass within the Schwarzschild radius, which normally would continue to collapse into a gravitational singularity (Black Hole) ''but has not'', that would disprove the theory of Black holes right there, or in other words falsify them.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: Any object which is completely contained in a Schwarzschild radius is automatically a black hole, regardless of whether or not it has collapsed into a singularity or not.  Furthermore, since the gravitation field exterior to the schwarzschild radius would be the same regardless of where the mass inside was a singularity or not, so there would be no way to tell.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: I still think the best argument for falsifiability is the experiment I presented earlier into quark degeneracy pressure. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:18, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: I was not aware of a hypothesis that offers a possibility of quark degeneracy pressure that would be powerful enough to resist the effects of gravity even if the mass would normally be large enough to collapse into a black hole.  I agree if such pressure existed it would disprove our current theories of black hole formation.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: You are right, it doesn't have to be a singularity, although that is what current theories suggest happens, that gravity continues to collapse the matter inside the event horizon to the point of a singularity.[http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html]  However that does not have to be true for the mass to collapse within the Schwarzschild radius to be a black hole, just that their is sufficient gravity to force particles within the horizon to be deformed in their path so they cannot leave.  It is just theorized at the center of a black hole is the singularity[http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/singularity.html].  That being said, it expected that a theory of quantum gravity will feature black holes without singularities.[http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_hawk.html] [http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980420b.html].  It isn't important either way, what is important is the question, are black holes falsifiable?  I think you and others have already offered examples of yes. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 13:23, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== [[Falsifiability]] ==&lt;br /&gt;
(no text was inserted here, but the edit summary was &amp;quot;the falsifiability is undeniable and should not be censored, Physicists should be taught about falsifiability as part of their curriculum&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Based on KSorenson's remarks and what I know about the curricula at schools I've attended, physicists are indeed taught about it.  It seems a stretch to say that the falsifiability is &amp;quot;undeniable&amp;quot; when in fact every editor except you has denied it. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 23:15, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry, somehow my text above was misplaced.  Thanks for substituting in what I meant!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Those who have denied that black holes lack [[falsifiability]] really seem to be denying that falsifiability should be a limit on physics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::KSorenson cited a laundry list of philosophy-type requirements of physics majors, but conspicuously absent was emphasis on falsifiability.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Like most college majors, physics students repeat what they're taught.  If they received good grades, then it becomes even harder for them to question it.  But keep in mind that the people doing the teaching are the most liberal group in the world, and they almost never encourage the student to open his mind and think critically for himself.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:23, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Please read again, Aschlafly. I specifically cited Karl Popper as part of the curriculum in undergraduate courses on the philosophy of science. In case it's slipped your mind, Popper basically invented falsifiability as the criterion for distinguishing science from non-science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Incidentally, Popper cited Einstein's theories as exemplars of rigorously falsifiable science when he constructed his criterion. He wrote about it in contrast to the quote-unquote &amp;quot;scientific&amp;quot; theories of Marx. By a happy coincidence, the very same theories of Einstein's that Popper found so admirable are the ones we're talking about here. So can you ''please,'' and I'm asking for the third time now, clarify just exactly what your gripe is?--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:36, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Hello; I'm the user who edited this article after KSorenson.  If I may jump in to this heated discussion going on at at least [[User_Talk:KSorenson|two places]] :  I think what Andy's saying is that black holes themselves can never be proven to not exist, because (by definition) no one can see them or visit them and return.  I think what KSorenson's saying is that [[general relativity]] states black holes are possible, and that general relativity can be falsified (e.g. by sending probes to probe the earth's gravitational field).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Of course, just because general relativity hasn't been ''disproven'' doesn't mean that it's been proven.  There could be a better theory which accounts for all the gravity-probe data and states that black holes don't exist.  We don't know yet; that's the wonder of science:  God's always put more out there for us to discover!  So, we don't know that black holes do exist - that claim isn't falsifiable; we'd need to survey every square millimeter of space and say &amp;quot;there isn't a black hole ''here''!&amp;quot;.  But, the theory that states they ''can'' exist is falsifiable.  I tried to reflect this dichotomy in my edits to this article. -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:46, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You make excellent points, particularly in your last paragraph above.  The introductory paragraph to [[black hole]] would benefit from this, and please feel free to edit it again (I apologize if others deleted your work).  Note, however, that it is not very practical to devise a test that could falsify General Relativity, and falsifying General Relativity would not falsify the claim that [[black holes]] exist.  Black holes are far too popular in science magazines and liberal publications like the New York Times to &amp;quot;go away&amp;quot; that easily.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:52, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::On Popper and relativity, Christoph von Mettenheim (http://elm.eeng.dcu.ie/~tkpw/tcr/volume-01/number-03/node3.html) writes: &amp;quot;Most of you will know of Popper's admiration for Einstein, and how he was inspired by the theory of relativity (and by its high refutability in contrast to the irrefutability of psychoanalysis) more than by anything else to develop the criterion of falsifiability as a demarcation between science and metaphysics (Popper 1976, pp. 37-38).&amp;quot;  As KSorenson has already noted, relativity was the theory that inspired the notion of falsifiability in the first place.  The claim that &amp;quot;it is not very practical to devise a test that could falsify General Relativity&amp;quot; is absurd on the face of it. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 10:02, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Popper's personal views are irrelevant; no one here says that Popper was a genius who was always right.  It's [[falsifiability]] that is at issue, and the resistance to that simple, logical concept is astounding.  People can teach Popper all they like, but it's clear that physics majors are not learning fully about falsifiability.  String theory wouldn't exist in physics departments if they were.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::If tests existed that might falsify General Relativity, then in the nearly 100 years since its proposal we would have seen many of them.  Instead, as the latest discussion (and the famous 1919 solar eclipse) illustrate, margins of error in the experiments are typically greater than the deviations predicted by the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:13, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: (unindent)&lt;br /&gt;
: Andy raises an interesting point.  In theory, it's easy to test general relativity - take KSorenson's gravity probe, for example.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;This wouldn't absolutely prove it; there might always be a better theory out there.  But nothing can ''ever'' be absolutely proven in science - the point is that this test could disprove it.&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;  So, in theory, it's falsifiable.  &amp;quot;[falsifiable|A proposition or theory is falsifiable if it is hypothetically possible for a test or observation to prove it false].&amp;quot;  Of course, a hypothetical future theory might still include black holes (there's an infinite number of possible theories), but the possibility of black holes according to general relativity (how's that for a mouthful?) is falsifiable, because general relativity is falsifiable.  Or, to try to say it more simply:  the possibility of the particular sort of black hole predicted by general relativity (with exactly these properties, et cetera) is falsifiable.  I hope I made my verbiage understandable enough for you all to agree or disagree?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:But as you point out, the solar eclipse experiment didn't test general relativity in practice:  the margins of error were too big.  (I don't know if that's still true with modern experiments; could someone who knows more about that fill me in?)  So, while it's theoretically falsifiable, it's possible that general relativity hasn't actually been tested yet... -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 10:36, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v63/p731/fulltext.pdf Here] is a nice review of a variety of experimental tests of general relativity, along with discussion of other experiments that may be undertaken in the future. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 10:43, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::That all sounds basically right to me, EvanW. (Can I call you EvanW?) But from where I sit, it's even simpler.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity has been and is being tested, and so far the tests have confirmed the theory. That might change any minute, but it's still true so far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity says that black holes are possible, and that if they exist they'll have certain properties.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*We've seen objects in the sky that have those properties, and that aren't predicted by any other existing theory. We're studying those objects as hard as we can given the limits of distance, to see if they really do walk and quack like ducks. Until we see something un-ducky, we say &amp;quot;Yeah, those look like ducks to us.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::This really isn't complicated as far as I can tell, and I'm really baffled as to why we're still yaking about it amongst ourselves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Aschlafly, if you want to expand the living daylights out of the &amp;quot;Controversy&amp;quot; section, I'll be right there by your side, cheering you on and helping in any way I can. As long as your contributions aren't misleading or incorrect. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but my gut tells me that EvanW and MarkGall would make the same promise. So why are we still bickering? Can't we improve the article instead? I know having to respond here is taking away from the time I set aside today to add to the [[general theory of relativity]] article. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 10:54, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: Mark cited Clifford Will's government-funded 2004 article on proof for General Relativity, but that paper is very &amp;quot;thin&amp;quot; and in a mere 15-minute review several weaknesses are apparent.  But thanks for the citation, Mark.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: This is a site where logic prevails.  If you want to say that black holes are consistent with General Relativity (though rejected by Einstein), and General Relativity might be falsifiable (though tests will sufficient accuracy are difficult and expensive), that's fine.  But black holes themselves, like life in outer space, are not falsifiable.  It's basic logic, and that doesn't change whether all accept the logic or not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: There's a broader point here.  Why the big push for black holes by liberals, and big protests against any objection to them?  If it turned out empirically that promoting black holes tends to cause people to read the Bible less, would you still push this so much?  Certainly there is no practical justification to pushing black holes; no one will ever be helped by them in any way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:03, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: I haven't had time to read the Clifford Will paper yet, and I don't think I've got the expertise to judge it well.  But, I think we've come to an agreement here:&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# Black holes themselves can't be falsified (except by surveying every cubic millimeter of space)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# General relativity says they are possible.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# General relativity is falsifiable (theoretically), but it's hard to falsify.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::# Therefore, the possibility of black-holes-as-specified-by-general-relativity is falsifiable.&lt;br /&gt;
::::: As for why the media's pushing black holes - hey, they're interesting to read about!  Myself, by Occam's razor, I don't think any more explanation is needed.  As for why KSorenson and I are pushing them - I can't speak for KSorenson, but I'm trying to defend falsifiability and the concept of a scientific theory, just like (I think) you are:  general relativity is a legitimate scientific theory, because it can theoretically be falsified. -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 12:15, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: Evan, I appreciate your comments and have learned from them.  My question was directed at KSorenson and Mark, not to you.  But using your answer, it doesn't explain the insistence by liberals on downplaying or even censoring criticism of black holes.  And one key question is unanswered:  if promoting black holes caused people to read the Bible less, would you want to promote them?  They certainly won't ever help anyone, while the Bible might.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:22, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Aschlafly, you seem to be more interested in arguing (now apparently about politics and religion of all things) than you are in improving the article. This is fine. If you want to contribute to the article in any way at all, I'll be here to help however I can. I would ask you to please think carefully before adding a misleading assertion like &amp;quot;Einstein rejected black holes&amp;quot; (which doesn't tell the whole truth) or &amp;quot;black hole theory is unfalsifiable,&amp;quot; because doing so would just hurt the article, misinform anyone who reads it and waste the time of any editor who feels like trying to fix it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Meanwhile, I'm going to finish filling out the [[general theory of relativity]] article. If you find some aspect of ''that'' one that you want to argue about in the same way you've argued about this article … well, don't bother. I've grown weary of the endless, pointless, going-nowhere talk, and I'm going to focus on making constructive contributions until I get bored of it, or I run out of useful things to add. You're obviously free to take those contributions and use them as you will, or throw them in the trash. It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::And finally, as to whether &amp;quot;this is a site where logic prevails,&amp;quot; I've always been an actions-speak-louder-than-words sort of girl. The article is here; I have made my contribution to it. Whether logic (or for that matter, intellectual honesty) prevails is something I look forward to finding out. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 12:29, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719683</id>
		<title>Talk:General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719683"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T17:11:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Created page with 'Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:  {{Template:Math-h}}  But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to ...'&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Question: I know we have this template for sections that get into early-undergrad math:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But the quantitative section is going to make (gentle) reference to tensor algebra and some aspects of differential geometry. Do we have a template that somehow conveys &amp;quot;this section is hard-core math, but don't be scared?&amp;quot; Or maybe something that gets across the idea that you don't have to follow everything in this section to understand this article?&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719681</id>
		<title>General theory of relativity</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=General_theory_of_relativity&amp;diff=719681"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T17:08:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: Added qualitative intro draft plus some structure, threw up &amp;quot;work in progress&amp;quot; template while I fill in the blanks.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Progress}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The '''general theory of relativity''' is a theory of gravity that is compatible with [[Special theory of relativity|Special Relativity]].  The theory was first published by [[Albert Einstein]] in 1916.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The general theory of relativity is a ''metric theory,'' sometimes also called a ''geometric theory.'' Metric theories describe physical phenomena in terms of [[differential geometry]]. This stands in contrast to Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]], which described gravity in terms of a [[vector field]].  In the case of general relativity, the theory relates ''stress-energy'' — an extension of the concept of [[mass]] — and the [[curvature]] of [[spacetime]]. In the words of physicist John Wheeler, &amp;quot;Space tells matter how to move, matter tells space how to curve.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Misner, Thorne &amp;amp; Wheeler. ''Gravitation.'' (1973)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the [[weak field approximation]], where velocities of moving objects are low and gravitational fields are not very severe, the theory of general relativity is said to ''reduce to'' the law of universal gravitation. That is to say, under those circumstances the equations of general relativity are mathematically equivalent to the equations of Newtonian gravitation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The theory was inspired by a thought experiment developed by Einstein involving two elevators.  The first elevator is stationary on the Earth, while the other is being pulled through space at a constant acceleration of g.  Einstein realized that any physical experiment carried out in the elevators would give the same result.  This realization is known as the equivalence principle and it states that accelerating frames of reference and gravitational fields are indistinguishable.  General Relativity is the theory of gravity that incorporates Special Relativity and the equivalence principle.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Qualitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The relationship between the curvature of spacetime and the motions of freely falling bodies is often explained by an easily imagined analogy: bowling balls and golf balls on a trampoline.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Imagine that we place a golf ball on an ordinary backyard trampoline. If we give the golf ball a slight push, it will roll along in a straight line until friction brings it to a halt. But if we imagine that friction doesn't exist, then the golf ball will roll in a straight line at a constant speed forever — or at least until it reaches the edge of the trampoline and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now imagine a bowling ball sitting in the middle of a trampoline. The trampoline isn't a rigid surface, so it deforms where the weight of the bowling ball pushes it down. This causes the surface to be curved downward, toward the ground.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If we place a golf ball near the edge of the trampoline, it will begin to roll toward the bowling ball, because the trampoline is sloped downward in that direction. The golf ball will start off moving very slowly, then pick up speed as it approaches the bowling ball, until finally it collides with the bowling ball and comes to rest.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we give the golf ball a slight push in a direction perpendicular to the direction of the bowling ball, then it will move in a curved path. If we only push it a little bit, the golf ball will curve slightly, but still collide with the bowling ball. If we push the golf ball somewhat harder, it will curve toward the bowling ball, pass by it on one side and climb back out of the depression until it reaches the edge and falls off.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But if we're ''very'' careful, and give the golf ball ''just the right'' push, it will curve completely around the bowling ball and return to our hand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is, in a nutshell, how spacetime and matter interact under the theory of general relativity. Massive objects — represented in our analogy by the bowling ball — curve spacetime. Less-massive objects also curve spacetime, but to a lesser extent. If the object is small enough, like our golf ball, the amount of curvature is so slight that we can't even measure it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The way the golf ball moved in the three scenarios we imagined correspond to ''conic-section orbits,'' or ''Kepler orbits.'' When we just placed the golf ball and it rolled straight toward the bowling ball, that was a ''degenerate'' orbit: a straight line. When we gave it a push and it curved around the bowling ball and off the edge of the trampoline, that was a ''hyperbolic'' orbit. And when we gave it just the right push so that it curved around the bowling ball and back to our hand, that was an ''elliptical'' orbit.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
These are the same orbits that are predicted by Isaac Newton's [[Law of Universal Gravitation|law of universal gravitation]]. But in Newton's equations, objects move in conic-section orbits because of a force that accelerates them toward the central mass. In general relativity, objects move in conic-section orbits because spacetime itself is curved, just like our imaginary trampoline was curved by the bowling ball.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course, our analogy is far from perfect. Our imaginary trampoline curved ''downward,'' toward the ground, pushed down by the weight of the bowling ball. That's not how spacetime behaves in general relativity. It curves, but not ''toward'' anything, not in any ''direction.'' Spacetime in general relativity is instead said to have ''intrinsic curvature,'' which is mathematically quite simple but very difficult to visualize.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course there are many, many other aspects of general relativity that our imaginary trampoline didn't model. But the analogy captures the essential nature of the theory: the bowling ball caused the trampoline to be curved, and the curvature of the trampoline caused the golf ball to move in a different way than if the trampoline had been flat. This is the essence of general relativity: matter tells space how to curve, and space tells matter how to move.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quantitative Introduction to General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{{Template:Math-h}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General Relativity is a mathematical extension of Special Relativity. GR views space-time as a 4-dimensional [[manifold]], which looks locally like [[Minkowski space]], and which acquires [[curvature]] due to the presence of massive bodies. Thus, near massive bodies, the geometry of space-time differs to a large degree from [[Euclidean geometry]]: for example, the sum of the angles in a triangle is not exactly 180 degrees. Just as in classical physics, objects travel along [[geodesic]]s in the absence of external forces. Importantly though, near a massive body, geodesics are no longer straight lines. It is this phenomenon of objects traveling along geodesics in a curved spacetime that accounts for gravity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The GR field equations are &lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;lt;math&amp;gt; G_{uv} = 8\pi\, T_{uv} &amp;lt;/math&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
where ''G&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;uv&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' is the [[Einstein curvature tensor]], and ''T&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;uv&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' is the [[stress-energy tensor]], ''G&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;uv&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' and ''T&amp;lt;sub&amp;gt;uv&amp;lt;/sub&amp;gt;'' are both rank 2 symmetric tensors.  The GR field equations is a system of [[partial differential equations]] that relates the curvature of space to the mass occupying the space.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The right side of the equation: the stress-energy tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The left side of the equation: the Einstein curvature tensor===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Exact Solutions in General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tests of General Relativity==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
General relativity provides one explanation for the seemingly anomalous precession of Mercury's perihelion.  There are other explanations based in Newtonian gravity, such as factoring in the pull of the other planets on Mercury's orbit.  One Newtonian explanation requires a slight alternation to the precise inverse-square relation of Newtonian gravity to distance, which is disfavored by mathematicians due to its inelegance in integrating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
British Historian Paul Johnson declares the turning point in 20th century to have been when fellow Briton Sir [[Arthur Eddington]], an esteemed English astronomer, ventured out on a boat off Africa in 1919 with a local Army unit to observe the bending of starlight around the sun during a total eclipse.   Upon his return to England declared that his observations proven the theory of relativity.  In fact recent analysis of Eddington's work revealed that he was biased in selecting his data, and that overall his data were inconclusive about the theory of relativity. The prediction was later confirmed by more rigorous experiments, such as those performed by the [[Hubble Space Telescope]] &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spaceimages.com/gravlen.html Hubble Gravitational Lens Photo]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; [http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html Gravitational Lensing] &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/glgallery.html]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Lorentz has this to say on the discrepancies between the empirical eclipse data and Einstein's predictions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::''It indeed seems that the discrepancies may be ascribed to faults in observations, which supposition is supported by the fact that the observations at Prince's Island, which, it is true, did not turn out quite as well as those mentioned above, gave the result, of 1.64, somewhat lower than Einstein's figure.''&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Lorentz, H.A. [http://ia331314.us.archive.org/2/items/theeinsteintheor11335gut/11335-h/11335-h.htm The Einstein Theory of Relativity]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The prediction that light is bent by gravity is predicted both by Newtonian physics and relativity, but relativity predicts a larger deflection.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity where all gravitational fields are weak.  Alternatively, special relativity is the limiting case of general relativity when all reference frames are inertial (non-accelerating and without gravity).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
*Einstein, Albert (1916), [http://www.alberteinstein.info/gallery/pdf/CP6Doc30_English_pp146-200.pdf &amp;quot;The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity&amp;quot;] (PDF), Annalen der Physik 49&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Physics]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Black_hole&amp;diff=719623</id>
		<title>Talk:Black hole</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Black_hole&amp;diff=719623"/>
		<updated>2009-11-13T15:54:42Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;KSorenson: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;==Extremely high density==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Technically, it's undefined, no? [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 07:52, 22 March 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
did you know the 'Black Holes FAQ', which there is a link to, was  written in 1995? -stevenM&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Existence confirmed? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Perhaps I was hasty. I will reconsider. Any other sources I might find enlightening, perhaps from a YEC perspective? [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 15:16, 7 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Talk:Atheistic Style#Black Holes]] covers it quite well. I don't know of any evidence from a '''reliable''' source that shows the existence of Black holes. This &amp;quot;can't be directly observed&amp;quot; thing reminds me a bit too much of evolution. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 12:16, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Even wikipedia's article notes that all of the different pieces of evidence of a black hole are problematic and can be explained by other sources. [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 12:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::This is why the article starts by stating &amp;quot;A black hole is a '''theoretical''' mass with an escape velocity greater than the speed of light. They cannot be observed directly, but several have been identified via indirect observation&amp;quot;  I also don't see how NASA or UCLA Berkely are unreliable sources for astronomy.  As for &amp;quot;can't be directly observed&amp;quot;,there are numerous articles on CP related to Intelligent Design that don't rely on direct observations of a designer to discuss the apparent presence of design in nature.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The beauty of science that it's always open to review and reassessment as new discoveries come to light.  In time man's understanding of Black Holes may be different from this article, but we owe the readers the best current explanations available.  I'm not suggesting censorship - all credible alternate theories should be listed, but stating that there have been no observations of one is false - by definition they are not directly observable, so proving they exist relies on indirect observation and physics.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:38, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::There is no place called &amp;quot;UCLA Berkely&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::ID is bolstered by the direct observation available from Genesis.&lt;br /&gt;
:::The best explanation is not always the explanation espoused by Californians.&lt;br /&gt;
:::We know how our universe began. If NASA &amp;amp; discovery.com deny it, they lose credibility, and their other statements come under greater scrutiny. If you met someone today who insisted that the sky is red and that Sears closes at 10, you would be wise to check the store hours yourself. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 13:58, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::Okay, my mistake regarding Berkely notwithstanding, my last reversion is based on two simple things.  The word &amp;quot;is&amp;quot; should not be replaced by  &amp;quot;would be&amp;quot; - it ''is'' a characteristic of black holes within the theory that describes them.  Second, the use of [[Big Science]] as a term on CP was started by an admitted parodist, and equating NASA with it, frankly comes across as parody as well.  Instead of diluting references to good science, spend more time supporting alternate explanations constructively.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 14:07, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Would be&amp;quot; is appropriate for hypothetical things. We say &amp;quot;Dole would have been a better President than Clinton,&amp;quot;  not &amp;quot;Dole was a better President than Clinton,&amp;quot; even &amp;quot;within a theory that describes&amp;quot; Dole as being elected.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Big Science&amp;quot; was used in ''[[Expelled]]''. You don't think that was parody, do you?&lt;br /&gt;
:::::&amp;quot;Berkely&amp;quot; isn't a place, either.&lt;br /&gt;
:::::It seems like I'm the only one trying to make constructive edits towards a compromise. I guess this is not surprising, given the content on [[User:DinsdaleP]]. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::BHarlan, I believe that you do not understand a small but important bit of information, most astronomical discoveries are collaborative efforts usually initiated by small independent astronomers.  When you say big science you could classify biosciences like that, but astronomy is totally different.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 14:19, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::The so-called &amp;quot;evidence&amp;quot; for Black holes does not fit a pattern like the one you describe. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 14:26, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(unindent)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm not making any other changes to the revision just posted by Aschlafly.  To BHarlan, I make no apologies for my User Page content.  If the CP leadership wishes to block me over my [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/DinsdaleP contributions] they have the right to do so at any time, but I feel that my efforts here are constructive even when I disagree with others.  Feel free to have the last word on this, I'm moving on to other topics.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 14:45, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Black holes have been spotted by a number of well-respected astronomical institutes for decades, with those discoveries tested and confirmed repeatedly.  Your edits are unsupported by either fact or citation Andy, so under the rules youelf created I have no choice but to revert your edits, whereas the edits saying that black holes have been spotted are fully cited with references from reputable sources including NASA, an organisation fully backed by all US Governments, including conservative governments, since its inception.-[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 15:47, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Your sarcastic edit comments are not welcome here. You might want to check &amp;quot;youelf&amp;quot;, else you might end up wrecking youelf.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, you always have a choice! Do you deny this choice? That is a typical sentiment of materialists. If you do not believe in your soul, you will receive a nasty surprise pretty soon, and it won't just be the non-existence of black holes!&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, that is not how &amp;quot;whereas&amp;quot; is used in standard English.&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, NASA has taken a sad left turn as of late. This is one of the reasons the U.S.A.F. has its own space program. Do you see?&lt;br /&gt;
:Also, may God bless you. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 16:10, 9 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::My my, I miss a 's' in a typo and you decide to launch an ad hominem attack&amp;amp;hellip; Very 'christian' of you, or then again; not.  &lt;br /&gt;
::''&amp;quot;Also, that is not how &amp;quot;whereas&amp;quot; is used in standard English&amp;quot;.''  That  might not  be how you use it with your standard of English, but as anyone who has been taught the correct way to use the English language knows, it's perfectly correct.  Oh, and a little, free, friendly lesson regarding the use of written English : You never start consecutive paragraphs with the same word unless it is absolutely necessary, which, in your above post it wasn't.  If you are having trouble with your synonyms I heartily recommend using a thesaurus.  &lt;br /&gt;
::The military space research programmes exist solely to explore the possible military applications of space.  All civilian space programmes, including government projects run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.).  This is common knowledge amongst those who know anything about this subject.  &lt;br /&gt;
::Stating that black holes don't exist is akin to believing the moon landing was faked.  The existence of black holes and the fact that they have been spotted is undisputed by anyone who has the knowledge and experience to know what they are looking at.  I have had the privilege of seeing two of these black holes myself.  They are out there and have been spotted, and that is a direct, firsthand witness statement.  &lt;br /&gt;
::May you be touched by his noodly appendage, or if that isn't your cup of tea, may you be blessed by the goat Heidrún.  RAmen.-[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 17:06, 10 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::* It's &amp;quot;an 's'&amp;quot;, not &amp;quot;a 's'&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you missed just one 's', then that part of the sentence would read &amp;quot;under the rules youself created&amp;quot;, which is ''still'' wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you missed an 'r' and an 's', then that part of the sentence would read &amp;quot;under the rules yourself created&amp;quot;, which is '''still''' wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* An [[ad hominem]] attack means to reply to the logic in your arguments by attacking your character. I did no such thing. I didn't attack your character in any way. I asked if you were a materialist, then pointed out that materialists are Hell-bound. If you have a problem with your final resting place, I suggest you reconsider your path in life. I do not suggest that the Hell-bound are never able to make logical arguments.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* &amp;quot;Christian&amp;quot; is capitalized. Did you leave it uncapitalized on purpose? If so, I suggest you blaspheme somewhere else.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* That is not how semicolons are used in standard English.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* You need a comma after &amp;quot;but&amp;quot; for the aside.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* You do not need commas around &amp;quot;friendly&amp;quot;, just like you don't need commas around &amp;quot;red&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;big red inflatable ball&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::* I will not discuss the friendly lesson here, except to note that stylistic choices are different than maintaining correctness. Comma placement and word choice are different beasts.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* The sentence starting &amp;quot;All civilian&amp;quot; has no main verb, so I can't respond to it.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Hyperbole about the moon landing is simply rhetoric. If there is no argument, there can be no response.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Black holes can't be seen. What I suppose you mean is that you infer their existence. Your inference is not particularly convincing.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God.&lt;br /&gt;
:::* I am done with this pointless, blasphemous discussion. It is not encyclopedic. I suggest you contribute to this encyclopedia. It is a good way to improve your writing skills. I have been contributing partially for that reason. Maybe you could join me in adding articles and value, rather than taking the name of my Lord in vain? &lt;br /&gt;
:::* If you decide not to, you may have the last word here, as I will no longer reply to this silliness. I hope you will decide to contribute instead. [[User:BHarlan|BHarlan]] 18:33, 10 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::: *Sigh* ''&amp;quot;a wit, an arrow, across the head it passed, an apple not pierced today&amp;quot;'', an 'r' and an 's', my apologies, how can such typos be left to pass, expecially when they are nothing to do with the argument at hand, well done for picking up such niggling detail, and yet avoiding the point of the argument.  Admittedly I missed the n in an, but again, a typo, they happen.  ''&amp;quot;Wikipedia may accept your anonymous evidence, but we are more careful here&amp;quot;'', how does evidence from NASA count as anonymous evidence?&amp;amp;hellip;at all?&amp;amp;hellip;in any way?&amp;amp;hellip;whatsoever? As for an ad hominen attack, your argument provided no evidence against the existence of black holes, merely an attack on myself, the purest definition of ad hominen (a course in Latin will help you there).  Christian or christian, depends on how you want to write it and on your own beliefs.  Me, not my belief, and as I don't believe I cannot blaspheme, after all, how can you blaspheme against something that does not exist to be blasphemed?  Use of semicolons in standard English?  Again, I refer you to the fact the your standard of English might not be sufficient to use them in such regard.  I recommend increasing your quality of English by beginning with Chaucer and reading your way up.  At some point you will realise that the use of English in any form is an art, not a science, and that language is to be used in such a way as to provoke delight, wonder and thought with its writing, and beyond the obvious rules of form, there are no hard and fast rules, merely that of metre, pace and illumination.  ''&amp;quot;The sentence starting &amp;quot;All civilian&amp;quot; has no main verb, so I can't respond to it&amp;quot;'', '''run''', it's a verb, hard to miss, I'll admit to missing a comma (the sentence should read ''&amp;quot;All civilian space programmes, including government projects, run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)&amp;quot;'', but missing the word '''run''' *shakes head in disbelief*:  if you insist on a purer form for that sentence, how about &amp;quot;All civilian space programmes, including government projects, are run through the relevant Space Agencies (NASA, ESA, etc.)&amp;quot;, but all things being equal, both sentences say the same thing.  Moon landing = the sum of evidence gathered concerning the existence of black holes, and that they have been spotted, is greater than the evidence that the moon landing occurred in 1969, hence the corollary. ''&amp;quot;Please take your graven goat pasta idols elsewhere. Here we show some simple respect for God&amp;quot;'', I found it offensive that you forced your beliefs on me, now you have found it offensive when I have forced my beliefs on you, with luck you will have learnt a lesson there, don't force your beliefs and prayers on me and I will return the favour by not blessing you with a little sarcastic FSM (oh, and a little FYI, the word graven means carved and I'm sure that the old FSM hasn't been carved yet and, in addition, I doubt that there are any extant carvings of Thor's goats, although I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong in that regard.)--[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 22:13, 13 January 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I have researched an extensive amount about black holes, and am about to add more information to the article that I hope will prove to be interesting and useful (I will, of course, cite my sources). I am also adding a couple of updates, as some of the information in the article is dated. As a topic about which scientists are still learning, that happens a lot. I hope the updates will improve the quality of the article and its use for educational purposes. [[User:BlueMoon|BlueMoon]] 15:26, 24 June 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Impossible? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;A black hole is a theoretical prediction of the theory of relativity. It is impossible to prove that a black hole does not exist, and thus it fails the falsifiability requirement of science.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Actually in science we cannot prove with 100% certainty that ''anything'' does not exist, you cannot prove a negative.  This opening sentence needs to be rewritten first for that reason, also for the fact that black holes have been indirectly observed via Accretion disks, gas jets, gravity lensing, radiation emissions, and other orbits of other stellar bodies.  Also there is no other valid explanation in science for the aforementioned effects of a black hole that we observe. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 17:00, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:No, that's the point- to be scientific, something has to be able to be proven wrong. That is a major part of the scientific method. For example, God is not a scientific concept, because you cannot disprove God. But to be science, one of the criterion is that the idea be able to be disproven.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Falsifiability is not the ''only'' criterion for whether something is scientific, so perhaps black holes are not ''unscientific.'' But that opening is pretty much accurate. [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 17:50, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Black holes are falsifiable as a theory, because the observations generally accepted as caused by black holes ''could'' be causes something else, however there is no alternative theory ''at present'' to explain the phenomenon.  However you cannot prove that a black hole ''could never'' exist just as you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist.  God is not a scientific theory not because it is impossible to absolutely disprove God (impossible to prove that God could never possibly exist) but because the supernatural cannot be shown to exist through science, which deals only with the natural universe, if you could present a theory God existed in science, that god would no longer be supernatural by definition.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Honestly I don't understand the objection to black holes, there is no conservative reason for it. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 19:04, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The existence of black holes is ''not'' falsifiable.  Surely you agree with that.  Black holes cannot be observed either.  Addison explained the flaw well above, but you seem intent on sticking with your beliefs.  Believe what you like, but black holes do not satisfy any sensible definition of science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:37, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: The possible existence of anything is not falsifiable, black holes, quarks, gods, even godzilla, only theories are falsifiable, such as the theory that explain what black holes are and how they work.  The present theories of black holes are falsifiable, but so far no one has successfully debunked them, or offer an alternate scientific theory for the phenomenon attributed to the effects and properties of black holes.  We cannot observe an isolated quark directly, but we accept that theory. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: However I cannot change one's mind, that is fine, I made my objections known, I am not going to step on people's toes by attempting to change the page, I just believe it is scientifically incorrect in it's proclamation and could stand to be improved for a better article. I have said what I believe needed to be said and will end my part here, anyone feel free to respond with the last word or contact me privately. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 21:07, 1 July 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thank you for your interest. Note that atoms have actually been observed (in refutation of what you said above, &amp;quot;you cannot prove atoms, or anything, could never exist&amp;quot;. I don't think the article will be changed though. Black holes are sort of on the fence between observable, testable physics, and &amp;quot;theoretical&amp;quot; physics, e.g. string theory. There are a million sources where you can get the standard overview of black holes. Why not have a different view here? Wikipedia does not even ''mention'' the issue of falsifiability, so we are doing a service to the scientific method by at least bringing it up- even if you think the article's conclusion is wrong. [[User:AddisonDM|AddisonDM]] 21:23, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::In addition to Addison's comments, note that some theories ''are'' [[falsifiable]] (such as Newton's theory of gravity), while other theories are ''not'' falsifiable, such as the theory that black holes must exist or [[string theory]].  And when a theory is not falsifiable, it is not science.  If BMcP proposes an alternative definition of science, then let's hear it, but I doubt he'll do better than [[Karl Popper]] in making [[falsifiability]] part of the definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:45, 1 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Guys, this is becoming quite the argument; however, it is unnecessary because the idea that black holes exist ''is'' falsifiable.  If NASA sends probes out to nearby black holes (which would take a long time, but it's possible), and they all turn out to be ancient Spartans in spaceships or whatever, then scientists will  conclude that black holes don't exist and start working on how Spartans came to be in space and why they have accretion disks, etc. So black holes are falsifiable, and this argument is a source of unnecessary tension. [[User:BlueMoon|BlueMoon]] 12:55, 8 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I don't get this non-falsifiable argument. If we see light from a star, then it is not a black hole. Any claim that it is a black hole is then falsified. Black hole theory says that a star becomes a black hole whenever its mass goes inside its Schwarzschild radius, it becomes a black hole. So if we ever find a star that emits light and has its mass inside its Schwarzschild radius, then the theory is falsified. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:32, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:The problem with that argument is that we live light years away, so what we could be seeing at one moment could be just the beginning before the light is swallowed into the black hole. --[[User:ChrisZ|ChrisZ]] 11:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: No, we can observe the radius, mass, and light all at the same time. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:07, 28 July 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Should we change the article then, seeing how there's no rebuttal to [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]]'s post regarding the falsifiability of the black hole theory? [[User:ATang|ATang]] 11:03, 6 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::: RSchlafly is absolutely right, as far as anything a graduate student could say might &amp;quot;validate&amp;quot; the statements of an actual PhD.  But an additional argument: it wouldn't even be necessary to use astronomical observations to invalidate the theory of black holes.  A large enough super collider - perhaps the LHC, perhaps a more powerful device - could discover a quark degeneracy pressure, or some other currently-unknown mechanism, which might offer a potentially infinite resistance to collapse, or, pressure so great at certain densities that an impossibly large amount of matter would be necessary to form a black hole.&lt;br /&gt;
:::: I'm not going to remove this material yet, since I see Andy put it there, but I hope Mr. Schlafly will read this page and reconsider.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 14:46, 8 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: There are some untestable statements that are commonly made about black holes. One might even argue that statements about the interior of a black hole are unfalsifiable, because we cannot see the inside. But black hole theory does have a lot of observable consequences, so I think that the article is misleading. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 10:12, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::: How might one falsify the basic assertion about black holes:  that black holes exist such that light cannot escape?  Every time one observes light escaping, he simply concludes that it is not a black hole.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:31, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::Mr. Schlafly, you're absolutely right that the general claim, &amp;quot;There are mysterious regions of space from which light cannot escape&amp;quot; is an unverifiable claim.  Black holes don't refer to this statement - they refer to the specific statement, &amp;quot;It is possible to concentrate a certain amount of mass, so that the gravity of that mass prevents light from escaping.&amp;quot;  This could be falsified by experiments in particle accelerators (possibly the LHC, I'm not familiar enough with it to know) which could demonstrate that such concentration of matter is impossible - that degeneracy pressures, currently unknown, prevent such it.  This would falsify the claim that black holes exist. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 11:52, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::: I have an open mind about this, but fail to see how an inability to generate a black hole using a generator would falsify the existence of black holes in outer space.  Most likely those who believe in black holes would simply say that higher and higher energies or densities are needed to generate it in particle accelerators.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:16, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: You're right that failure to create a microscopic black hole in a lab wouldn't falsify the idea that they can form.  What I'm claiming is that research which aims, not to create microscopic black holes, but to gain more insight into the forces that govern the behavior of sub atomic particles, might unearth evidence that would refute black holes.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Here's how:  right now, the theory on black hole formation states that as matter accumulates, first electron degeneracy pressure is overcome (that is, the structure of the matter in question would be not atoms side by side, but atomic nuclei side  by side with no electrons in between), then the nuclear degeneracy pressure is overcome, that is, one would not longer have nuclei side by side, but neutrons and protons side by side (a neutron star), and then finally, this neutron degeneracy pressure is overcome and the matter becomes so dense it is contained by its own Schwarzchild radius and becomes a black hole.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: It is entirely plausible that a particle accelerator of sufficient power could concentrate matter to overcome the neutron degeneracy pressure only to discover a quark degeneracy pressure, or some other force.  It is also possible that this new force would require SO MUCH matter to be overcome, as to be unphysical (for example, it might take more matter than is currently believed to exist to overcome the pressure).  If this pressure was to prevent matter from being denser than the Schwarzschild limit, then the claim that black holes exist would be forever disproven and falsified.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:43, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::: Additional note:  As RSchlafly points out, there are many claims about black holes which ARE unfalsifiable, currently - as he points out, claims about the interior of the event horizon are not falsifiable. Similarly, predictions regarding their presence in certain locations are not falsifiable by any means we yet possess.  The same criticism could be leveled at my above description of an experiment in nuclear-density matter.  [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:56, 9 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::: We cannot determine what is happening in the &amp;quot;interior&amp;quot; (inside the event horizon) but that doesn't make a black hole itself not falsifiable.  We are not sure what the interior of a neutron star is at all, but I think everyone here agrees they do exist.  Also just because you cannot visually see something (such as a black hole, where light cannot escape from inside the event horizon) doesn't mean it isn't there or falsifiable.  Most astronomical study of space is not in the visual spectrum, and there are many ways to determine the existence of a black hole.  I also must point out, there has been no alternative hypotheses to explain the gravitational effects we presently attribute to black holes. Also, as pointed out before, if we are able to find an object of sufficient mass within the Schwarzschild radius, which normally would continue to collapse into a gravitational singularity (Black Hole) ''but has not'', that would disprove the theory of Black holes right there, or in other words falsify them.  For example, if we found an object the same mass of our Sun, and was smaller then its Schwarzschild radius of around 3 km (the Schwarzschild radius for an object of that mass) and it '''did not''' collapse into a black hole, then the theory of Black Holes ''would be proven false''. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 08:14, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: I hate to disagree with BMcP, because we share the same goal here (getting the non-falsifiability statement removed from the article), but there was a lot of bad science in that response and we should have an argument based in facts and truth.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: '''I also must point out, there has been no alternative hypotheses to explain the gravitational effects we presently attribute to black holes.'''&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: That's not entirely true.  In my previous posts, I mentioned that discovering a sufficiently powerful quark degeneracy pressure could disprove the existence of &amp;quot;black holes.&amp;quot;  Objects which are prevent from gravitational collapse by quark degeneracy pressure, &amp;quot;quark stars,&amp;quot; could explain a good deal of phenomenon currently attributed to black holes could be very adequately explained by such phenomenon - extraordinary x-ray sources, quasars, all these rely on on the affects of a large amount of mass concentrated in a small space, not necessarily a Schwarschild radius.  Which brings me to&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: '''if we are able to find an object of sufficient mass within the Schwarzschild radius, which normally would continue to collapse into a gravitational singularity (Black Hole) ''but has not'', that would disprove the theory of Black holes right there, or in other words falsify them.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: Any object which is completely contained in a Schwarzschild radius is automatically a black hole, regardless of whether or not it has collapsed into a singularity or not.  Furthermore, since the gravitation field exterior to the schwarzschild radius would be the same regardless of where the mass inside was a singularity or not, so there would be no way to tell.&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::::: I still think the best argument for falsifiability is the experiment I presented earlier into quark degeneracy pressure. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 12:18, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: I was not aware of a hypothesis that offers a possibility of quark degeneracy pressure that would be powerful enough to resist the effects of gravity even if the mass would normally be large enough to collapse into a black hole.  I agree if such pressure existed it would disprove our current theories of black hole formation.  &lt;br /&gt;
:::::::::::: You are right, it doesn't have to be a singularity, although that is what current theories suggest happens, that gravity continues to collapse the matter inside the event horizon to the point of a singularity.[http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html]  However that does not have to be true for the mass to collapse within the Schwarzschild radius to be a black hole, just that their is sufficient gravity to force particles within the horizon to be deformed in their path so they cannot leave.  It is just theorized at the center of a black hole is the singularity[http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/singularity.html].  That being said, it expected that a theory of quantum gravity will feature black holes without singularities.[http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_hawk.html] [http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980420b.html].  It isn't important either way, what is important is the question, are black holes falsifiable?  I think you and others have already offered examples of yes. --[[User:BMcP|BMcP]] 13:23, 12 August 2009 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== [[Falsifiability]] ==&lt;br /&gt;
(no text was inserted here, but the edit summary was &amp;quot;the falsifiability is undeniable and should not be censored, Physicists should be taught about falsifiability as part of their curriculum&amp;quot;)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Based on KSorenson's remarks and what I know about the curricula at schools I've attended, physicists are indeed taught about it.  It seems a stretch to say that the falsifiability is &amp;quot;undeniable&amp;quot; when in fact every editor except you has denied it. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 23:15, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry, somehow my text above was misplaced.  Thanks for substituting in what I meant!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Those who have denied that black holes lack [[falsifiability]] really seem to be denying that falsifiability should be a limit on physics.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::KSorenson cited a laundry list of philosophy-type requirements of physics majors, but conspicuously absent was emphasis on falsifiability.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Like most college majors, physics students repeat what they're taught.  If they received good grades, then it becomes even harder for them to question it.  But keep in mind that the people doing the teaching are the most liberal group in the world, and they almost never encourage the student to open his mind and think critically for himself.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:23, 12 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Please read again, Aschlafly. I specifically cited Karl Popper as part of the curriculum in undergraduate courses on the philosophy of science. In case it's slipped your mind, Popper basically invented falsifiability as the criterion for distinguishing science from non-science.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Incidentally, Popper cited Einstein's theories as exemplars of rigorously falsifiable science when he constructed his criterion. He wrote about it in contrast to the quote-unquote &amp;quot;scientific&amp;quot; theories of Marx. By a happy coincidence, the very same theories of Einstein's that Popper found so admirable are the ones we're talking about here. So can you ''please,'' and I'm asking for the third time now, clarify just exactly what your gripe is?--[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 00:36, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Hello; I'm the user who edited this article after KSorenson.  If I may jump in to this heated discussion going on at at least [[User_Talk:KSorenson|two places]] :  I think what Andy's saying is that black holes themselves can never be proven to not exist, because (by definition) no one can see them or visit them and return.  I think what KSorenson's saying is that [[general relativity]] states black holes are possible, and that general relativity can be falsified (e.g. by sending probes to probe the earth's gravitational field).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Of course, just because general relativity hasn't been ''disproven'' doesn't mean that it's been proven.  There could be a better theory which accounts for all the gravity-probe data and states that black holes don't exist.  We don't know yet; that's the wonder of science:  God's always put more out there for us to discover!  So, we don't know that black holes do exist - that claim isn't falsifiable; we'd need to survey every square millimeter of space and say &amp;quot;there isn't a black hole ''here''!&amp;quot;.  But, the theory that states they ''can'' exist is falsifiable.  I tried to reflect this dichotomy in my edits to this article. -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 00:46, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You make excellent points, particularly in your last paragraph above.  The introductory paragraph to [[black hole]] would benefit from this, and please feel free to edit it again (I apologize if others deleted your work).  Note, however, that it is not very practical to devise a test that could falsify General Relativity, and falsifying General Relativity would not falsify the claim that [[black holes]] exist.  Black holes are far too popular in science magazines and liberal publications like the New York Times to &amp;quot;go away&amp;quot; that easily.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:52, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::::::On Popper and relativity, Christoph von Mettenheim (http://elm.eeng.dcu.ie/~tkpw/tcr/volume-01/number-03/node3.html) writes: &amp;quot;Most of you will know of Popper's admiration for Einstein, and how he was inspired by the theory of relativity (and by its high refutability in contrast to the irrefutability of psychoanalysis) more than by anything else to develop the criterion of falsifiability as a demarcation between science and metaphysics (Popper 1976, pp. 37-38).&amp;quot;  As KSorenson has already noted, relativity was the theory that inspired the notion of falsifiability in the first place.  The claim that &amp;quot;it is not very practical to devise a test that could falsify General Relativity&amp;quot; is absurd on the face of it. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 10:02, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::Popper's personal views are irrelevant; no one here says that Popper was a genius who was always right.  It's [[falsifiability]] that is at issue, and the resistance to that simple, logical concept is astounding.  People can teach Popper all they like, but it's clear that physics majors are not learning fully about falsifiability.  String theory wouldn't exist in physics departments if they were.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::If tests existed that might falsify General Relativity, then in the nearly 100 years since its proposal we would have seen many of them.  Instead, as the latest discussion (and the famous 1919 solar eclipse) illustrate, margins of error in the experiments are typically greater than the deviations predicted by the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:13, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: (unindent)&lt;br /&gt;
: Andy raises an interesting point.  In theory, it's easy to test general relativity - take KSorenson's gravity probe, for example.  &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;This wouldn't absolutely prove it; there might always be a better theory out there.  But nothing can ''ever'' be absolutely proven in science - the point is that this test could disprove it.&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;  So, in theory, it's falsifiable.  &amp;quot;[falsifiable|A proposition or theory is falsifiable if it is hypothetically possible for a test or observation to prove it false].&amp;quot;  Of course, a hypothetical future theory might still include black holes (there's an infinite number of possible theories), but the possibility of black holes according to general relativity (how's that for a mouthful?) is falsifiable, because general relativity is falsifiable.  Or, to try to say it more simply:  the possibility of the particular sort of black hole predicted by general relativity (with exactly these properties, et cetera) is falsifiable.  I hope I made my verbiage understandable enough for you all to agree or disagree?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:But as you point out, the solar eclipse experiment didn't test general relativity in practice:  the margins of error were too big.  (I don't know if that's still true with modern experiments; could someone who knows more about that fill me in?)  So, while it's theoretically falsifiable, it's possible that general relativity hasn't actually been tested yet... -- [[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 10:36, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::[http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v63/p731/fulltext.pdf Here] is a nice review of a variety of experimental tests of general relativity, along with discussion of other experiments that may be undertaken in the future. --[[User:MarkGall|MarkGall]] 10:43, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::That all sounds basically right to me, EvanW. (Can I call you EvanW?) But from where I sit, it's even simpler.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity has been and is being tested, and so far the tests have confirmed the theory. That might change any minute, but it's still true so far.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*General relativity says that black holes are possible, and that if they exist they'll have certain properties.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::*We've seen objects in the sky that have those properties, and that aren't predicted by any other existing theory. We're studying those objects as hard as we can given the limits of distance, to see if they really do walk and quack like ducks. Until we see something un-ducky, we say &amp;quot;Yeah, those look like ducks to us.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::This really isn't complicated as far as I can tell, and I'm really baffled as to why we're still yaking about it amongst ourselves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Aschlafly, if you want to expand the living daylights out of the &amp;quot;Controversy&amp;quot; section, I'll be right there by your side, cheering you on and helping in any way I can. As long as your contributions aren't misleading or incorrect. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but my gut tells me that EvanW and MarkGall would make the same promise. So why are we still bickering? Can't we improve the article instead? I know having to respond here is taking away from the time I set aside today to add to the [[general theory of relativity]] article. --[[User:KSorenson|KSorenson]] 10:54, 13 November 2009 (EST)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>KSorenson</name></author>
	</entry>
</feed>