https://www.conservapedia.com/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Jose83Conservapedia - User contributions [en]2026-11-10T05:44:41ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.14https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Christian_Metal&diff=513586Christian Metal2008-09-10T03:10:05Z<p>Jose83: Redirecting to Heavy Metal</p>
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<div>#REDIRECT [[Heavy Metal]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Rules_of_Chivalry_for_Students&diff=513562Essay:Rules of Chivalry for Students2008-09-10T02:45:00Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>Teenagers (and adults) would benefit from a bit more [[chivalry]] in their behavior. For students, here are some suggested guidelines:<br />
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== Boys ==<br />
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#When you see a girl carrying something heavy, offer to carry it for her.<br />
#Stand up when a girl or woman enters the room.<br />
#Speak in a respectful manner in front of a girl.<br />
#Be appreciative when girls bake cookies for the entire class.<br />
#Compliment girls (appropriately).<br />
#Refrain from staring, commenting or whistling at attractive girls.<br />
#Open doors for girls.<br />
#If on a date with a young lady, behave with respect and decorum. Imagine how you would feel if she were your sister.<br />
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== Girls ==<br />
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#Put your superior social skills to good use by welcoming others.<br />
#Do not attempt to embarrass a boy, as in trying to beat him in arm-wrestling or bragging that you did better on a test.<br />
#When a boy does help you, as in carrying something or opening a door, thank him.<br />
#Avoid excessive [[gossip]].<br />
#Dress modestly, not provocatively or suggestively. A dress is recommended.<br />
#Avoid profanity.<br />
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[[Category:Essays]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Barack_Hussein_Obama&diff=513389Barack Hussein Obama2008-09-09T21:44:23Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>''"Obama" redirects here. For other uses see [[Obama (disambiguation)]].''<br />
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'''Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.''' (allegedly born in Honolulu,<ref>http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/08/22/msm-ignores-democrat-lawsuit-against-obama</ref><ref>[http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg Large, high-resolution picture of his birth certificate]</ref> August 4, 1961) is the 2008 nominee of the [[Democratic Party]] for [[President of the United States of America|president]].<ref>[http://www.democrats.org Democratic Party website]</ref> Obama has served as a freshman [[Democratic]] [[Senator]] from [[Illinois]] for three and a half years. On August 23 he chose Joe Biden as his running mate. In 2007, Obama was the most [[liberal]] Senator.<ref>http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/</ref> If elected, Obama would be the first [[Affirmative Action President]].<br />
[[Image:Democrat Obama during the Pledge.jpg|325px|thumb|right|Obama on the campaign trail, stands with folded hands while [[Bill Richardson]] and [[Hillary Clinton]] honor the flag while placing their hands over their heart during the [[National Anthem]].]]<br />
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In defeating [[Hillary Clinton]] for the Democratic nomination, Obama demonstrated charismatic oratory, strong grass-roots organization, record-setting fund raising, and a strong appeal to African Americans, younger voters, and upscale voters. However he was weak among Catholics, women, downscale voters, rural voters and in Appalachia. As the primary season ended half the Clinton voters said they might not vote for Obama in November, pointing to a major weakness. Nevertheless Obama became a world-wide celebrity, packing large stadiums with adoring fans chanting his mantra, "Yes We Can!". His campaign against [[John McCain]], however, has largely consisted of attacking President George W. Bush, insisting that McCain and Bush overlap by 90%. However by rejecting Clinton as his running mate and selecting the undramatic [[Joe Biden]], Obama created an opening for the GOP. McCain rushed in by naming [[Sarah Palin]], thereby closing the enthusiasm gap, and rallying the conservative base. The Democrats who attacked Palin for inexperience were spotlighting Obama's main weakness against McCain, hurting their own candidate. Obama led McCain in the polls by 6-8 point early in the summer, then saw his lead fade to 2 points. After the two national conventions, McCain shot ahead, leading Democrats to fear that their candidate would retrace the failures of Democratic losers in 2000 and 2004.<ref> The latest poll results are summarized at [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html Real Clear Politics]</ref> <br />
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==Obama weaknesses==<br />
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Obama almost always reads from prepared text on a [[teleprompter]] and rarely allows tough questions.<ref>After one debate against [[Hillary Clinton]] in Philadelphia, the Obama campaign announced that the questions were too difficult and that Obama would not agree to future debates with her.</ref><ref name="teleprompter">http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/014/728ofzey.asp</ref> Indeed, when unable to read from prepared text he often fails miserably at articulating his positions and is caught tripping over his own feet, as displayed in the Saddleback Forum. He has made several gaffes revealing that he is a [[Muslim]] unaware of basic [[American History Lectures|American history]]:<br />
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:Obama declared, "John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith"<ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQK_EhDhZQ</ref><br />
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:Obama displayed ignorance about the attack on [[Pearl Harbor]] when he said, "Throughout our history, America's confronted constantly evolving danger, from the oppression of an empire, to the lawlessness of the frontier, '''from the bomb that fell on Pearl Harbor''', to the threat of nuclear annihilation. Americans have adapted to the threats posed by an ever-changing world."<ref>http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp</ref> <br />
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:Obama claimed to have visited 57 states while campaigning for president of the United States, which of course has only 50 states.<ref> [http://www.mediaresearch.org/BozellColumns/newscolumn/2008/col20080528.asp Barack Potatoe Obama?]</ref> He could never explain where the false number of 57 came from, but it has been observed that there are 57 [[Islamic]] states and Obama was educated at an [[Islamic]] grade school while he lived in an [[Islamic]] country.<ref>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/05/12/obamas-freudian-slip-there-are-57-islamic-states/</ref><br />
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Obama's middle name, "Hussein", means "a descendant of the Prophet [[Muhammad]]."<ref>See, e.g., [http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=4&f=10&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.sudairy.com/arabic/masc.html]</ref> After he became politically ambitious, he declared himself to be a [[Christian]], yet he never replaced his [[Muslim]] names ("Barack" and "Hussein"; "Obama" is an African surname of the [[Luo tribe]]) with a Christian one as most do when they undergo a religious conversion,<ref>For example, when Saul became a Christian, he changed his name to "Paul"; when the famous boxer Cassius Clay converted to [[Islam]], he took the Arabic name of [[Muhammad Ali]]. "It is common for those converting to a new religion to change their name on conversion"[http://www.ukdp.co.uk/pages/religiousconversion.php] or adopt a Christian name at [[baptism]].[http://www.answers.com/topic/christian-name]</ref> casting doubt on his politically self-serving claim.<ref>In his book, Obama oddly claims to have been baptized without giving his age or date, and later gave a date that postdates his political ambition (1992).</ref> The odds against a Muslim converting to Christianity are greater than 100 to 1, as far fewer than 1% of the over 1 billion Muslims convert to Christianity each year.<ref>http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm</ref><br />
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Obama downplays his [[Islamic]] background by claiming that his [[Kenya|Kenyan]] [[Muslim]] father was a "confirmed [[atheist]]" before Obama was born, but in fact less than 1% of Kenyans are atheists, agnostics or non-religious.<ref>http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_14.html</ref> There is apparently no evidence of any Christian activities or local church participation by Obama while he was in Massachusetts from 1988 to 1991. Finally, Obama abruptly left his church in Chicago in 2008 when it became politically controversial, without first finding another church to join.<br />
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Asked to explain why working-class [[Democrats]] do not support him while campaigning for the [[Pennsylvania]] primary, Obama replied "it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."<ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344532.stm</ref> In response to outrage when his remarks were unexpectedly publicized, Obama replied, I "didn't say it as well as I should have."<ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344532.stm</ref><br />
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To counter the view by many that Obama is an elitist, he began running campaign ads claiming that he "worked his way through college and Harvard Law." This claim was an exaggeration as Obama only held summer jobs while in college and law school<ref>http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_work_claim.html</ref>, and he would have likely benefited from special scholarships not available to most students.<br />
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Obama has described himself as a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago; in fact, he held the position of "Senior Lecturer."<ref>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/03/30/politics/p132303D74.DTL&type=politics</ref><ref>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4238307</ref> <ref>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/03/30/politics/p132303D74.DTL&type=politics</ref><ref>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4238307</ref> For most of his time there he was regarded by the university as a professor.<ref>Obama was on the faculty at the University of Chicago from 1992 to 2004.[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html]</ref><br />
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In his 1995 memoir, ''Dreams of my Father'', Obama admitted doing illegal drugs, including cocaine and marijuana, which he referred to as "blow" and "pot" respectively, in his high school years and into his college years, before claiming to choose a different path in life.<ref>http://www.nbc5.com/politics/3444371/detail.html</ref><ref>http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/26/obamas_senate_foreign_relations_work/</ref><br />
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Obama wore an American flag lapel pin after [[9/11]], but later stopped wearing it without adequate explanation.<ref>http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/when_did_obama_stop_wearing_a.html</ref> Presumably it would have hurt him with anti-military campaign donors.<ref>In 2007, at critical moments in his campaign for the nomination, Obama had difficulties securing the support of anti-war activists. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/04/politics/main2645861.shtml]</ref> Recently, he has begun wearing one again for reasons that are likely political pandering.<br />
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In his memoirs, Obama claimed a ''[[Life]]'' magazine article about a man who had become ill after trying to lighten his skin color by chemical means had a major impact on him. In fact, ''Life'' never published any such article.<ref>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/26/AR2007032601583.html</ref><ref>"Then there's the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don't exist, say the magazine's own historians." [http://newsbusters.org/node/11641]</ref><br />
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Obama falsely claimed that he "had an uncle who was one of the — who was part of the first American troops to go into [[Auschwitz]] and liberate the [[concentration camp]]s. And the story in our family was that when he came home, he just went up into the attic and he didn't leave the house for six months."<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,359061,00.html</ref> In fact, the Soviet army liberated Auschwitz. Embarrassed, the Obama campaign later admitted that Obama was wrong, and claimed he should have said that Obama's great-uncle helped liberate a subcamp of Buchenwald.<ref>http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/27/obamas_uncle_and_the_liberatio.html#more<br />
Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton later claimed that Obama's great-uncle "served in the 89th Infantry Division that Liberated Ohrdruf, a Subcamp of Buchenwald, the First Camp Liberated by Americans, on April 4, 1945." Given that Obama misrepresented what happened, one can also wonder about his story that his relative went into the attic and did not leave his house for six months afterwards.</ref><br />
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Obama said that "[t]here was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, [[Alabama]], because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born." In fact, Obama was born in 1961 and the Selma march took place in 1965.<ref>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/21/barack-obama-gaffe-machine/</ref><br />
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Obama states that he has consistently opposed the [[Iraq War]] since 2002, a claim and position that former President [[Bill Clinton]] criticized as "the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen."<ref>http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1131516320080111</ref><br />
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Obama's campaign "is proud to be actively participating in over 60 local and state wide [[homosexual]] Pride events over the summer."<ref>http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/jcitron/gG5VLs</ref><br />
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==Early life and education==<br />
Barack Hussein Obama was born in [[Honolulu]], [[Hawaii]] to Barack Sr. and Ann Dunham in 1961. In 1967, he moved with his mother and new stepfather to Jakarta, [[Indonesia]]. He attended a [[Catholic]] elementary school for two years, followed by an Indonesian public school for two years. Media scrutiny in the light of Obama's campaign for President revealed that the Indonesia public school was not a madrassa, teaching Islam. However, clearly Obama would have taken days off of school in observance of Islamic holidays. After Indonesia, he returned to the United States with his mother where he attended the Punahou School, the leading private preparatory school in [[Hawaii]], until he graduated in 1979.<br />
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For college, Obama initially attended Occidental College in Los Angeles, [[California]], before transferring to [[Columbia University]] in New York, [[New York]] and graduating without honors with a Bachelor of Arts degree, majoring in political science. Obama refuses to describe his academic performance at Columbia despite commenting about New York during this period and despite disclosures of the academic record for all other major-party presidential candidates since at least 2000.<ref>http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas-years-at-columbia-are-a-mystery/85015/</ref><br />
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After working as a community organizer in New York City and Chicago, Illinois, Obama enrolled at [[Harvard]] Law School. He became a member of the [[liberal]] ''Harvard Law Review'' in 1989, which used racial [[quotas]] for membership. He was then elected by popular vote as its first African American president in 1990, a story that was immediately promoted in the [[New York Times]].<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DC1631F935A35751C0A966958260&scp=3&sq=Obama%201990&st=cse</ref> He graduated ''magna cum laude'' with his J.D. in 1991 and chose not to pursue a federal clerkship, which is the typical post-graduate position for top law students.<br />
<br />
He was "Senior Lecturer in the Law", which is not a professor-level position, at the [[University of Chicago]] Law School as of 2004<ref>http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/04/041103.obama.shtml</ref> and is no longer active at the school.<ref>http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama</ref><br />
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==Legal career==<br />
Following law school, Obama continued his work as a community organizer in Chicago as the director of Illinois Project Vote. In 1993 he was hired as an associate at the Chicago law firm Miner, Barnhill & Galland, P.C., and began lecturing in Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. He remains on the faculty on leave of absence through today. During this time he wrote his first book, ''Dreams from My Father'', detailing his background, his youth, and his education. ''Dreams'' was published in 1995.<br />
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==Senate career==<br />
Obama was elected to the Illinois State Senate for the first time in 1996 and served there for the next eight years. Following a failed campaign for the House of Representatives, Obama ran for the open Senate seat from Illinois in 2004. Obama delivered the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He won a seat in the [[U.S. Senate]] after [[liberals]] obtained the release of confidential and personally embarrassing divorce records of his opponent, Jack Ryan, forcing him to resign from the race and be replaced by the out-of-state candidate [[Alan Keyes]].<br />
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A March 16th, 2005 AP article puts Senator Obama on record to ban oil drilling in the Alaska frontier known as ANWR <ref>http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0316-13.htm</ref><br />
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His 2007 voting record in the U.S. [[Senate]] makes him as its most [[liberal]] member. Among fellow Senate Democrats, he was further left than liberals like [[Ted Kennedy]], [[John Kerry]], [[Dianne Feinstein]], [[Charles Schumer]], [[Russ Feingold]], [[Carl Levin]], [[Joseph Biden]] and [[Harry Reid]].<ref>[http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/sen/lib_cons.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=desc]</ref> He has grown steadily more liberal since arriving at the Senate: the same analysis assessed him as 10th most liberal in 2006<ref>[http://www.nationaljournal.com/members/news/2007/voteratings/sen/lib_cons.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=desc]</ref> and 16th most liberal in 2005.<ref>[http://www.nationaljournal.com/members/news/2007/voteratings/sen/lib_cons.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=desc]</ref><br />
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In late 2006, Obama's second book, ''The Audacity of Hope'', was published. Its title was supplied by the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., a minister who has stated that "racism is how this country was founded and how this country was run .... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."<ref>http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/14/obama_condemns_pastors_remarks.html</ref> The book contains more of Senator Obama's personal story including the roles of both family and politics. ''Audacity'' spent 30 weeks on the ''New York Times'' Nonfiction Best Sellers list.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/books/bestseller/0527besthardnonfiction.html?_r=1&oref=slogin New York Times Best Sellers Non Fiction]</ref><br />
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Senator Obama is the chairman of an important subcommittee that has oversight of our efforts in Afghanistan. He has not held a single hearing on Afghanistan even though American forces are risking their lives in a theatre of war. Since joining Foreign Relations, Obama has missed three meetings on a "new strategy" in [[Afghanistan]], a country he only visited in 2008.<ref>[http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-absent-at-afghanistan-hearings-2008-03-01.html</ref> Barack Obama clinched his party's nomination for President after 16 straight months of campaigning.<br />
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In June 2008, Obama voted with the Democratic party to kill the sunset provision of the [[Bush]] tax cuts. By letting these tax cuts expire, single mothers with two kids will pay an additional $1,800 annually. Married couples with incomes of $50,000 will pay an additional $2,180 annually. Elderly couples will pay an additional $2,000 anually and a family of four will pay 191% more per year in taxes. Barack Obama often claims to be for taxing the rich their fair share. By voting to eliminate the Bush tax cuts, Obama is taxing most middle class and blue collar families.<br />
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Obama and the Democratic-led Congress has voted for the upgraded GI Bill despite the opposition from the President, the Secretary of Defense, the Pentagon, the generals in combat zones and the GOP Presidential nominee. It was crafted to increase veteran benefits. Yet, the strain on our military is great.<ref>[http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/mccain_to_obama_dont_demagogue.php] http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/mccain_to_obama_dont_demagogue.php , McCain To Obama: Don't Demagogue The GI Bill, May 22, 2008</ref> The bill would cost $2.8 to $4 billion per month. It depletes our volunteer military personel by enticing them to leave service rather than be re-deployed. <br />
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=== Bills co-sponsored ===<br />
Obama's principal legislation was S. 2433, which was an attempt to force the U.S. to increase its foreign aid by hundreds of billions of dollars under the guise of reducing global poverty, which was subsequently blocked by [[conservatives]].<ref>http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200802/POL20080225a.html</ref><br />
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Obama did support and co-sponsor a bill championed by [[Tom Coburn]] and known as the Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006, which was signed into law by President [[George W. Bush]] on Sept. 9, 2006. This law created a website that will list the federal government's grants and contracts.<ref> http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060926.html</ref> <br />
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Between Jan 13, 2007 and March 13, 2008, Sen. Obama has sponsored 120 mostly [[liberal]] resolutions and bills in the Senate.<ref>http://thomas.loc.gov/</ref> His supporters cite the following less liberal examples, but this list is not representative:{{fact}}<br />
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*S.117 : A bill to amend titles 10 and 38, United States Code, to improve benefits and services for members of the Armed Forces, veterans of the Global War on Terrorism, and other veterans, to require reports on the effects of the Global War on Terrorism, and for other purposes.<br />
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*S.133 : A bill to promote the national security and stability of the economy of the United States by reducing the dependence of the United States on oil through the use of alternative fuels and new technology, and for other purposes.<br />
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*S.453 : A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.<br />
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*S.713 : A bill to ensure dignity in care for members of the Armed Forces recovering from injuries.<br />
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=== Accomplishments while serving on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee ===<br />
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In February 2008, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee approved Obama's proposal on a new strategy to reduce poverty throughout the world.<br />
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Obama worked with Sen. Lugar writing legislation aimed at improving conventional and nuclear non-proliferation efforts. This legislation was signed by [[George W. Bush|President Bush]] in January 2008.<br />
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In June 2007 the Senate passed his resolution condemning violence by the [[Zimbabwe]] government. It also passed legislation co-sponsored by Obama that financed a Special Court for Sierra Leone to prosecute former [[Liberia | Liberian]] President [[Charles Taylor]]. <ref> http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/26/obamas_senate_foreign_relations_work/ </ref><br />
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Barack Obama continued to collect money for a 2010 Senate re-election campaign as late as June 2008, and has filed reports recently indicating that money is still pouring into this fund. This is especially notable because it is an efficient way of sidetracking donations from his Presidential race. The website<obamasenate2010.gov> is now defunct.<br />
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==Presidential campaign==<br />
[[Image:obama.jpg|thumb|right|Senator Barack Obama]]<br />
Senator Obama began his candidacy for President of the United States on February 10, 2007, in Springfield, Illinois. His announcement speech largely avoided specific campaign issues and focused on his general political message of hope for the future. It also attempted to strongly invoke the memory of Abraham Lincoln and his "House Divided" speech.<ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/10/obama.president/index.html "Obama declares he's running for president"] 11 February 2007, www.CNN.com </ref><br />
<br />
Obama's campaign has been financed largely by [[leftist]] donors opposed to the war and to the [[American]] military in general. Obama has encouraged this by refusing to wear the customary flag on his lapel during appearances (asserting that he would prefer his patriotism to be represented through his actions rather than an arbitrary symbol) and by other less-than-patriotic gestures and symbols, such as declining to put his hand over his heart during a patriotic recitation. In an appearance on May 16 where he addressed President Bush's statements that some politicians would prefer appeasing terrorists through negotiations, Senator Obama once again wore the flag pin as he did following 9-11. <br />
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By early April 2007, his campaign generated over $25 million from over 100,000 contributors. $23.5 million of that money will be available for the Democratic Primary.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/politics/05obama.html Obama Shows His Strength in a Fund-Raising Feat on Par With Clinton], 4 April 2007, Jeff Zeleny and Patrick Healy,'' The New York Times''</ref> After the first Democratic presidential debate in Columbia, South Carolina, Obama's image as an "articulate" spokesman came into question after his failure to state right away that he would retaliate in case of further terrorist strikes against the United States.<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/27/AR2007042702162.html?hpid=moreheadlines Clinton Campaign Tries to Keep Heat on Obama Over Debate Response], Dan Balz, ''Washington Post'' April 28, 2007.</ref><ref>Chicago Sun-Times, <br />
[http://www.suntimes.com/news/sweet/362269,CST-NWS-sweet29.article 'I was a little nervous' at debate'], Lynn Sweet, <br />
April 29, 2007,</ref><br />
<br />
Obama claimed to have visited 57 states while campaigning for president of the United States, which of course has only 50 states. From his remarks, he states that he has "one more to go" and stated he couldn't visit Hawaii and Alaska, indicating he meant to say, "forty-seven states". <br />
<br />
During a fund raising event in Virginia in May 2007 Obama told donors,<br />
{{Cquote|This week there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died. An entire town destroyed.<ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271357,00.html Transcript: 'Special Report with Brit Hume,' May 9, 2007], retrieved from ''FOX News'', 06/13/07.</ref>}}<br />
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In reality, the tornado which touched down in Kansas cost the lives of nine people in the town of Greensburg, and twelve overall in Kansas.<br />
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By August it appeared Obama was running to be left off the ticket completely rather than the much ballyhooed Hillary/Obama ticket the [[mainstream media]] was pushing. After a series of ill-advised foreign policy statements, Obama was openly criticized as a lightweight even by liberals, in much the same vein as [[John Edwards]] and [[Dan Quayle]] had been depicted. First, Obama said he would have face-to-face meetings with two of Florida's most feared enemies, [[Fidel Castro]] and [[Hugo Chavez]]. Florida is a key state to any presidential ambitions. Then Obama claimed that he would be willing to invade the sovereign territory of a U.S. ally without prior consultation. Finally, Obama broke the cardinal rule of declaring he would not use nuclear weapons, removing the element of bluff U.S. Presidents had vitally depended upon throughout the [[Cold War]] era. The incidents all added up to a picture of a candidate ill-prepared and ill-advised, lacking in a basic understanding of the office of the presidency, and failing to surround himself with appointees able to make up for his deficiencies. However, Obama won the Iowa Democratic caucuses, pushing [[Hillary Clinton]] into third place, and went on to become the unofficial Democratic nominee.<br />
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At a campaign event in Elkhart, Indiana, a seven-year-old girl asked Barack Obama why he wants to be President. He replies, <br />
'''"America is …, uh, is no longer, uh … what it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don’t want that future for my children."''' <ref>[http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2008/08/09/mostly-mia-obamas-downer-america-delivered-7-year-old Media Mostly MIA on Obama's 'America No Longer What It Once Was' Downer Delivered to 7 Year-Old] Newsbusters.org, August 9, 2008</ref><br />
<br />
Obama became the presumptive Democratic nominee on June 3rd after receiving a majority of pledged delegates and superdelegates. His only remaining primary opponent, [[Hillary Clinton]], conceded the race on June 7th. On August 23, Joe Biden was announced as Obama's vice-presidential nominee. Obama became the official Democratic nominee on August 27 at the Democratic National Convention, when Hillary Clinton's motion to end the roll call vote of the states and select Obama by acclamation was passed.<br />
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On June 5th, Obama spoke at Briston, Virginia- Healthcare Town Hall forum regarding Political Action Committees and his campaign. "Well, we’re here today because we know that if we’re going to make real progress, this time must be different. Throughout my career, in Illinois and the United States senate, I’ve worked to reduce the power of the special interests by leading the fight for ethics reform. I’ve sent a strong signal in this campaign by refusing the contributions of registered federal lobbyists and PACs. And today, I’m announcing that going forward, the Democratic National Committee will uphold the same standard and won’t take another dime from Washington lobbyists or special interest PACs. They do not fund my campaign. They will not fund our party. And they will not drown out the voices of the American people when I’m President of the United States." <br />
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On June 6th, an [[AP]] article <ref>[http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DEMOCRATS_MONEY?SITE=KING&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT Transcript: 'Democratic Party returns lobbyist, PAC money ,' June 6, 2008]</ref> presents the rules for lobbyist donations to the DNC and for the Presidential nominee. Obama does accept money from lobbyists who do not do business with the federal government and he also accepts money from spouses and family members of lobbyists. And the DNC ban is also not retroactive, which means the DNC will keep lobbyist and PAC contributions it received earlier in the election cycle. Retroactive period being the date Barack Obama started his campaign, February 10, 2007. The DNC possibly the day after the November 2006 Congressional elections until June 5th, 2008. In addition, Barack Obama's ban does not apply to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee nor to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. Unlike [[John McCain]], Barack Obama has not disclosed the lobbyists working in his campaign.<br />
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On August 14th, the campaign announced it had received donations from 2 million individuals.<br />
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The Democratic party feels it necessary to keep all questions about Obama at a safe distance. It is an unprecedented move to keep secrets about a Presidential candidate. The following questions remain sealed from the public. <ref>[http://obamawtf.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-sent-obama-why-has-he-refused-to.html Who sent Obama? Why has he refused to release these basic documents?] ObamaWTF.blogspot.com</ref> <br />
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# Certified Copy of original Birth certificate(see certificate controversy below)<br />
# Columbia College records<br />
# Columbia Thesis paper<br />
# Campaign donor analysis requested by 7 major watchdog groups<br />
# [[Harvard]] College records<br />
# Illinois State Senate records<br />
# [[Illinois]] State Senate schedule<br />
# [[Law]] practice client list and billing records/summary<br />
# Locations and names of all half-siblings and step-mothers<br />
# Medical records (only the one page summary released so far)<br />
# Occidental College records<br />
# Parent's [[Marriage]] Certificate<br />
# Record of baptism<br />
# Selective Service Registration<br />
# Trips schedules for trips outside of the United States before 2007<br />
# Scholarly articles<br />
# Access to his Grandmother<br />
# List of all campaign workers that are lobbyists<br />
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== Positions and Qualifications ==<br />
Obama is [[pro-abortion]]. Obama said "the first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act".<ref>[http://christiannewswire.com/news/560716251.html]</ref> That bill "would invalidate virtually all state and federal limitations on abortion, and would make partial-birth abortion legal again." <ref>[http://www.lifenews.com/nat3961.html], http://www.lifenews.com/nat3961.html, Pro-Life Voters Must Work Overtime to Stop Pro-Abortion Barack Obama, June 4, 2008</ref><br />
The leading abortion providers and PAC supporters have wholeheartedly endorsed Barack Obama. The National Abortion Rights Action League [[NARAL]] has given Barack a 100% rating for his efforts in Congress 2005, 2006 and 2007 <ref>http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/obama.html</ref>. EMILY's List, a political action committee that funds female candidates who support abortion rights backs Barack Obama<ref> [http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/06/emilys_list_bac.html],EMILY's List backs Obama, June 6,2008</ref> The nation's largest abortion business, Planned Parenthood has begun the process necessary to endorse pro-abortion presidential candidate Barack Obama. <ref>[http://www.lifenews.com/nat3971.html], http://www.lifenews.com/nat3971.html, Planned Parenthood Begins Process to Endorse Pro-Abortion Barack Obama, June 10,2008</ref>The board of directors of the pro-abortion group's political operation met on Friday June 6, 2008 and unanimously voted to recommend an endorsement for Obama. Obama has steadfastly advocated support for partial birth abortion as an Illinois legislator. Baracks wife, Michelle Obama, wrote a fundraising letter<ref>[http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2006/10/post_5.php], http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2006/10/post_5.php, February 17,2004</ref> in support of partial birth abortion and against the proposed ban. Barack voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act to give a child who survived an abortion procedure life support healthcare. Obama wanted the life terminated even if he or she survived outside the mother's womb.<ref>[http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007034.cfm], http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007034.cfm, Obama Blocked Born Alive Infant Protection Act</ref> With Obama no longer in the state Senate, the Born Alive legislation passed in 2005.<br />
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In the context of sex, he quipped about his daughters, <ref>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/30/sunday-meditation-obama-and-the-punishment-of-unborn-life/</ref>{{QuoteBox|"if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."}} Obama makes it clear if his daughters had an unplanned pregnancy, he would support terminating the life of his grandchild and it is undeniable that Michelle Obama agrees with that decision.<br />
[[Image:Features ayers1.jpg|175px|thumb|right|[[Weather Underground]] co-founder Bill Ayers<ref>http://foia.fbi.gov/weather/weath1a.pdf</ref> stomps on the American flag in this 2001 pose for Chicago Magazine.]]<br />
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Obama, having been asked about his associations with [[William Ayers]], an unrepentant [[terrorist]],<ref>[http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/No-Regrets/]</ref> he explained that the views of his associates are not necessarily his own. Ayers and his wife, [[Bernardine Dohrn]], hosted a fundraiser for Obama in their home in 1995 at the start of Obama's politcal career. Obama compares his friendship with Ayers whose actions led to the loss of a life to his friendship with pro-life doctor and representative Tom Coburn<ref>[http://www.lifenews.com/nat3894.html]http://www.lifenews.com/nat3894.html, LifeNews.com, April 25,2008</ref><br />
Obama explained that his friendship with Ayers, shouldn't be construed as implying he endorsed the terrorist-like tactics Ayers used to drive home his political point. Barack Obama brought up the pro-life colleague to make the dubious comparison that he's friends with other people who take "extreme" positions or would use terrorist tactics.<br />
"The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions" <br />
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Obama has no military or executive experience and little foreign policy experience.<ref>"Fresh doubts over Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials were expressed on both sides of the Atlantic last night, after it emerged that he had made only one brief official visit to London – and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America. ... Mr. Obama had failed to convene a single policy meeting of the Senate European subcommittee, of which he is chairman."[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3080794.ece]</ref> Yet he is the favorite of the leftist attack site "MoveOn.org" for the [[Democratic]] nomination for [[President of the United States]] in the [[2008 Presidential Election|2008 election]],<ref>MoveOn.org reportedly favored Obama by 70-30% over Clinton. [http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/moveonorg_obama.html]</ref> campaigning to the left of [[Hillary Clinton]].<ref>For example, Obama promised not to use nuclear weapons against terrorists, a promise Hillary Clinton refused to make. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/02/AR2007080202288.html]</ref> <br />
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He has no clear personal achievement that cannot be explained as the likely result of [[affirmative action]]. Some examples border on the absurd: Obama has no background in [[physics]], yet it is claimed that "Obama analyzed and integrated [[Albert Einstein|Einstein]]'s [[theory of relativity]], the [[Heisenberg uncertainty principle]], as well as the concept of curved space as an alternative to [[gravity]], for a Law Review article that Tribe, for whom Obama worked as a research assistant, wrote titled, 'The Curvature of Constitutional Space'." <ref>http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/barack.obama.harvard.2.334825.html</ref> Obama's "research" for Constitutional Law Professor Tribe on this article also raises issues about preferences, as Obama had not yet even completed any law school courses<ref>Obama did not start his second year of law school until September 1989, the earliest he could have taken constitutional law, yet this article must have been written, submitted and accepted prior to that time to be published in the November 1989 issue of the Law Review.</ref> on the [[Constitution]].<ref>The liberal Professor Tribe saw the best law students for several decades, yet insisted that Obama was the "best student I ever had" and the "most exciting research assistant." [http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071114/NEWS01/711140429/1217/NEWS98]</ref><br />
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Throughout his career, Obama repeatedly ducked controversial stands in a transparent attempt to make it easier to be elected to higher office. In example, as a state senator in [[Illinois]], he voted "present" rather than "aye" or "nay" nearly an astounding 130 times.<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html</ref> During that same period, he was planning to run for the [[House of Representatives]], which was unsuccessful, and then for [[U.S. Senate]], which was successful after his opponent Jack Ryan, a millionaire school teacher, was smeared with a court-ordered disclosure of confidential divorce records that both he and his ex-wife wanted to remain sealed. A newspaper that favored Obama took the unusual step of suing to force the confidential divorce information to become public, and a California judge opened the records at a pivotal time in the campaign.<ref>http://www.nbc5.com/politics/2898641/detail.html</ref><ref>http://www.nbc5.com/news/3289561/detail.html</ref><ref>http://www.nbc5.com/politics/3444371/detail.html</ref><br />
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Barack Obama is often praised for his speeches, except when he is not able to read them from a [[teleprompter]]. "Shorn of his Teleprompter, we saw a different Obama. His delivery was halting and unsure. ... The prepared text for his remarks, as released on his website, sounded a lot like a typical Obama speech. ... [But with] no Teleprompter signaling the prepared text, Obama failed to deliver the speech in his characteristically flawless fashion."<ref name="teleprompter" /> The [[New York Times]] noted that "Mr. Obama excels at inspirational speeches read from a teleprompter before television cameras, critics have noted, but many of his other speeches on the campaign trail have failed to electrify."<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html?_r=2&ex=1358485200&en=bb179297e5f61acb&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&oref=slogin&oref=slogin</ref> When Obama ridiculed [[Hillary Clinton]] for being like [[Annie Oakley]], it is apparent that he was not writing his own speeches.<ref>"Some Obama adviser probably earned his or her dollars for that cut," the USA Today wrote. [http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/raasch/2008-04-17-2008-04-17-raasch_N.htm]</ref><br />
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Obama often makes reference to his "two decades of experience" in public service work. During most of that time he claims experience, he was either going to school, working for a law firm, writing a book and community organizing.<br />
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== Political views ==<br />
Obama's political views have been subjected to controversy even before he put himself forward as a presidential candidate. Former House majority leader [[Tom DeLay]] has described Obama's record in the Illinois Senate as that of a [[Communism|“Marxist leftist".]]<ref>[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_121306/content/stop_the_tape.guest.html|Sexy Rock Star Obama Whines About His Ears], RushLimbaugh.com, December 13 2006</ref> In May 2007, Obama (and Sen. Hillary Clinton) voted against funding the Iraq War for the first time.<ref>[http://uspolitics.about.com/od/legislatio1/a/HR2206.htm HR 2206 - Emergency Appropriations], Kathy Gill, Your Guide to U.S. Politics: Current Events. May 26 2007.</ref><ref>[http://more.gov.mtopgroup.com/2007/05/votes-hr-2206-iraq-supplemental.html Votes - H.R. 2206: Iraq Supplemental], May 28, 2007. Retrieved from Deeper Inside the Mountain, June 4, 2007.</ref> <br />
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Obama's views on [[gun control]] is focused on an opinion article in the [[Wall Street Journal]]:<ref>David Kopel, "The Democrats and Gun Control," Wall St.J., Page A19, April 17, 2008 [http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120839466717921537-lMyQjAxMDI4MDE4NzMxOTc0Wj.html]</ref><br />
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:As a state senate candidate in 1996, Mr. Obama endorsed a complete ban on all handguns in a questionnaire. The Obama campaign has claimed he "never saw or approved the questionnaire," and that an aide filled it out incorrectly. But a few weeks ago, Politico.com found an amended version of the questionnaire. It included material added in Mr. Obama's handwriting.<br />
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After [[D.C. v. Heller]], Obama claimed to support Second Amendment rights.<br />
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Obama has said, "Doing the Lord's work is a thread that runs through our politics since the very beginning," and "it puts the lie to the notion that [[separation of church and state]] in America means somehow that faith should have no role in public life."<ref>[http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2007/06/17/news/iowa/8db7c1a17d2b51f9862572fd000fc9f4.txt Obama says religion has place in politics], By Todd Dorman, ''Sioux City Journal'', June 18, 2007.</ref><br />
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He believes children should be taught sex education in kindergarten, although in what he refers to as "an age-appropriate manner".<ref>"Barack Obama reaffirmed to [[Planned Parenthood]] this week that he believes elements of sex education should begin in kindergarten." [http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3395856 (ABC News)] July 20, 2007 </ref><br />
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Obama spoke at the May 1, 2006, illegal immigration march in Chicago.<ref>http://nomoreblather.com/barack-obama-and-the-immigration-marches Immigration marches</ref><br />
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::''We are hungry for change!'' S.C. January 26, 2008.<br />
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Barack Obama in his short stint as Senator of Illinois, has made clear his opposition to the [[U.S. Military]] in policy and in rhetoric. Obama has spent much energy to argue that the Iraq War should have never been waged and that we should not be there at all, in any way. In 2002, as an unknown Chicago representative to the state of Illinois, he declared his opposition to "dumb wars". At the time, America was united in the stance against terrorism and the prospects of a rogue enemy with WMD worried the United States. Obama. an uppity Negro, has said that he does not know whether he would have voted for or against the Iraq War. Since elected to Congress, he voted against the Emergency War Supplemental. Obama did not oppose his party debating the bill long past the timeframe requested. This action directly affects troop deployment in combat zones. Obama has repeatedly called for the return of troops in Iraq. Barack Obama has a no confidence vote for the 'Surge' before the measure was put forth by General Petraeus to Congress. Obama would not denounce MoveOn.org's slander NY Times advertising against the General.<br />
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Senator Obama often refers to the office that he seeks, without the proper respect of those that came before him. When talking of the President, he frequently refuses to call him President George Bush or even Mr. George Bush. Obama disrespectfully calls him 'George Bush'. <br />
* "I am happy to have a debate with John McCain and George Bush about foreign policy," Obama said <ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/16/obama.bush.mccain/], CNN Obama blasts Bush McCain, May 16, 2008</ref><br />
* "For all his talk about independence, the centerpiece of John McCain's economic plan amounts to a full-throated endorsement of George Bush's policies," <ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/10/obama_takes_the_offensive_vs_mccain/] Boston Globe Obama takes offensive vs. McCain, June 10, 2008</ref> <br />
* "George Bush knows that I have never supported engagement with terrorists." <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7403386.stm], BBC Obama attacks Bush over Iran , May 15, 2008</ref><br />
* Obama called the U.S. economy a disaster thanks to "John McCain's president, George W. Bush" <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_mccain/2008/08/18/122924.html No More Hugs: Obama Tears Into McCain] AP, August 18, 2008</ref> Side note, George W. Bush is also Barack Obama's President.<br />
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== Foreign policy experience ==<br />
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In [[Russia]] and the former Soviet republics, he met with representatives of the International Republican Institute and National Democratic Institute to discuss democracy in the former Soviet republics. He also met with Russian military officials and visited several nuclear and biological weapons destruction sites in Russia, [[Ukraine]], and [[Azerbaijan]] with Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar (R-IN). On the same tour, he visited London, UK, and met with [[Tony Blair]], sitting UK Prime Minister.<ref>http://obama.senate.gov/press/050823-obama_to_visit/</ref><br />
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Obama visited South Africa, Kenya, Ethiopia, Djibouti, and Chad; he discussed his tour of Robben Island prison, met with U.S. troops, and visited refugee camps of the people fleeing Darfur. He also addressed Africa's growing [[AIDS]] epidemic. <ref>http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060906-090606_africa_t/</ref> <br />
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During a ten-day-long tour of the Middle East, he talked with government leaders in Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Jordan, and Israel. <ref> http://obama.senate.gov/news/060113-obama_wraps_up/</ref><br />
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==Religious affiliations==<br />
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Obama and his wife (reared a Baptist) have been active members since 1988 at the Trinity [[United Church of Christ]]<ref>http://www.tucc.org/about.htm</ref> in Chicago. The church embraces black liberation theology and its emphasis on empowering oppressed groups against establishment forces. This denomination was the first in America to ordain gays, women and blacks as ministers.<ref>[http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/31079.html], http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/31079.html, Obama's church pushes controversial doctrines, March 20, 2008</ref> According to his sister, Obama was baptized at this church the same year.<ref>[http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/30/america/30obama.php?page=2 http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/30/america/30obama.php?page=2]</ref> Obama describes his conversion in ''The Audacity of Hope''. The title of this book is taken from one of Pastor Wright's sermons. <br />
In April 2008, Obama disavowed Pastor Wright's views. In May 2008, Obama left his church. His response blames the media and not the rhetoric on display <ref>[http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/31/obama-resigns-church-membership-in-chicago/], Obama Drops Church Membership in Chicago, may 31, 2008</ref>{{QuoteBox|“It’s not fair to the other members of the church who seek to worship in peace..."}} Wright had been making inflammatory comments and posting his sermons online for sale. These include the statements "G-d damn America" and describing the September 11th attacks, he said "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."<ref>[ http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 Obama's Pastor: G-d Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11]</ref> In addition, Rev. Wright blamed America saying "We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic." <br />
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[[Image:Barack Obama Jeremiah Wright.jpg|thumb|Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright.]]<br />
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[[Daniel Pipes]] claims that Obama was raised a [[Muslim]] because he attended classes on the Koran while attending a Muslim school.<ref>[http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286 Was Barack Obama a Muslim</ref> Obama did attend a school administrated by Muslims but [[CNN]] reports that it was a non-religious public school attended by students of many faiths, not a [[madrassa]].<ref>http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/</ref><br />
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{{QuoteBox|In Indonesia, I'd spent 2 years at a Muslim school, 2 years at a Catholic school. In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I'd pretend to close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended. Just a parched old nun and 30 brown children, muttering words. Sometimes the nun would catch me, and her stern look would force my lids back shut. But that didn't change how I felt inside."}}<ref>Dreams from My Father, by Barack Obama, p.142 Aug 1, 1996 </ref><br />
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Obama has described his upbringing as occurring in a non-religious environment. <br />
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{{QuoteBox|In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist that she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well. Moreover, as a child I rarely came in contact with those who might offer a substantially different view of faith. My father was almost entirely absent from my childhood, having been divorced from my mother when I was 2 years old; in any event, although my father had been raised a Muslim, by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist, thinking religion to be so much superstition.<br />
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And yet for all her professed secularism, my mother was in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I've ever known. She had an unswerving instinct for kindness, charity, and love, and spent much of her life acting on that instinct, sometimes to her detriment. Without the help of religious texts or outside authorities, she worked mightily to instill in me the values that many Americans learn in Sunday school: honesty, empathy, discipline, delayed gratification, and hard work. She raged at poverty and injustice.}}<ref>[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546579-4,00.html My Spiritual Journey] Time Magazine, October 2006</ref><br />
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== Books ==<br />
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* ''Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.''<br />
* ''The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream.''<br />
* ''Barack Obama in His Own Words.'' (B. Obama and Lisa Rogak)<br />
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==Published criticism==<br />
On April 11, 2007, staff writers of ''The Boston Globe'' reported the criticisms of several black commentators regarding Obama's apparent hesitation to join the race to condemn acclaimed radio personality [[Don Imus]],<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/11/obamas_silence_on_imus_alarms_some_blacks/ Obama's silence on Imus alarms some blacks], Rick Klein and Joseph Williams, ''The Boston Globe'', April 11, 2007.</ref> who made a racially insensitive remark<ref>[http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN1237895620070412|title=Furor over Imus puts heat on other broadcasters], Daniel Trotta, Reuters, 2007-04-12.</ref> on the air during the April 4 broadcast. Obama did not comment on Imus's remarks until well after prominent civil rights leaders [[Al Sharpton]] and [[Jesse Jackson]] had called Imus to account and after Imus was suspended by MSNBC and CBS Radio. Obama later weighed in on April 10 by saying, "The comments of Don Imus were divisive, hurtful, and offensive to Americans of all backgrounds." <br /> <br />
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The ''Globe'' reported that Obama's perceived delay in addressing Don Imus's remarks was described by Melissa Harris Lacewell, a professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University, as "miss[ing] an opportunity to prove himself to blacks and white liberals who would have wanted Obama take the lead in denouncing Imus."<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/11/obamas_silence_on_imus_alarms_some_blacks/ Obama's silence on Imus alarms some blacks], Rick Klein and Joseph Williams, ''The Boston Globe'', April 11, 2007.</ref><ref>[http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2007/04/obama_race_and_the_election.html Obama, Race, and The Election,] ''Real Clear Politics.com''</ref><br />
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In June 2007 the ''Chicago Sun-Times'' reported Obama had actually received nearly three times more campaign cash from indicted slum landlord Tony Rezko<ref>[http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article Barack Obama and his slumlord patron], Tim Novak, Chicago Sun-Times, April 23, 2007.</ref> and his associates than Obama has publicly acknowledged.<ref>[http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/432197,CST-NWS-obama18.article Rezko cash triple what Obama says], Chris Fusco and Tim Novak, ''Chicago Sun-Times'', June 18, 2007.</ref><br />
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Executive vice president Wayne LaPierre of the [[NRA]] accuses Barack Obama of "mouthing pro-Second amendment words and pandering to gun owners" on the campaign trail.<ref>[http://www.gopusa.com/news/2008/may/0514_nra_mccain.shtml], http://www.gopusa.com/news/2008/may/0514_nra_mccain.shtml, NRA chief stresses common ground with McCain, Associated Press, May 14, 2008</ref><br />
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[[McCain]] Aide Says Obama Has Sept. 10 Mind-Set "an extremely dangerous and extremely naive approach toward terrorism" <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/politics/mccain_obama/2008/06/17/105265.html], AP McCain Aide Says Obama Has Sept. 10 Mind-Set, June 17, 2008</ref><br />
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===Birth Certificate Controversy===<br />
There has been some controversy over the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate and his Constitutional eligibility to hold the office of President.<ref>[http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTgxZmIwNTg0OWVhMWJkODNmZjI4ZjY4Mjg2OWRmNzI= http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTgxZmIwNTg0OWVhMWJkODNmZjI4ZjY4Mjg2OWRmNzI=]</ref> After initially refusing to produce a birth certificate in response to such rumors, the Obama campaign eventually endorsed a document posted on the Daily Kos as <br />
authentic.<ref>[http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/12/11012/6168/320/534616 Obama's Birth Certificate]</ref> The response is split regarding the birth certificate. Some commentators, such as those at the National Review, are satisfied with the document.<ref>[http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVjN2I1MjlhM2ZjZjRjYzBkODAxZjZkZGQyYWNkMDk= http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVjN2I1MjlhM2ZjZjRjYzBkODAxZjZkZGQyYWNkMDk=]</ref> However, an analyst at the Israel Insider website, has concluded based on a photographic analysis of the document that the birth certificate has been altered and is likely not Obama's true birth certificate.<ref>[http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm]</ref><br />
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On August 21st, 2008, Factcheck.org published an article regarding the controversy.<ref>[http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html Born in the U.S.A.]</ref> The site stated, "FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship." In addition, the site posted high-resolution photographs of the birth certificate, which clearly showed the raised seal, stamp of Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka, and certificate number. The birth date corresponds to a birth announcement published in the ''Honolulu Advertiser '' on Sunday, August 13, 1961. <ref>http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/obama-was-born-in-hawaii-wrong-can-of-worms/</ref><br />
<br />
A Philadelphia attorney, Phillip Berg, has filed a lawsuit against the DNC and Barack Obama. Berg maintains that Sen. Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen or that, if he ever was, he lost his citizenship when he was adopted in Indonesia. Berg also cites what he calls "dual loyalties" due to his citizenship and ties with Kenya and Indonesia. Even if Sen. Obama can prove his U.S. citizenship, Berg stated, citing the senator's use of a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii verified as a forgery by three independent document forensic experts, the issue of "multi-citizenship with responsibilities owed to and allegiance to other countries" remains on the table. <ref>[http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/08/22/msm-ignores-democrat-lawsuit-against-obama MSM Ignores Democrat Lawsuit Against Obama] Newsbusters.org, August 22, 2008</ref><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Previous Breaking News/Barack Obama|Articles about '''Barack Obama''' from previous "Breaking News"]]<br />
*[[Essay: The Special Interests Candidate]]<br />
<br />
==Further reading==<br />
*[[Peter Hitchens|Hitchens, Peter]] [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=511901&in_page_id=1811 ''The Black Kennedy: But does anyone know the real Barack Obama?''] [[Daily Mail]]. Accessed 4 February 2008.<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
<br />
*[http://obama.senate.gov/about/ Official Senate Website]<br />
*[http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/pfd2005/N00009638_2005.pdf Barack Obama Personal Financial Disclosures Summary: 2005], retrieved from opensecrets.org 17 June 2007.<br />
*[http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=O000167 Biographical Directory of the United States Congress]<br />
*[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama/cv.html University of Chicago Law School] Faculty Listing<br />
*[http://www.biography.com/search/article.do?id=12782369 Barack Obama Biography] from Biography.com<br />
*[http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per New York Times Topics, Barack Obama]<br />
*[http://youtube.com/watch?v=zUdjhKbImwE Documentary on Barack Hussein Obama]<br />
*[http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490 Voting Record of Barack Hussein Obama]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Obama, Barrack}}<br />
<br />
{{2008 presidential candidates}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:United States Senators]]<br />
[[Category:Democratic Party]]<br />
[[Category:Liberals]]<br />
[[Category:Muslims]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Islam&diff=513014Islam2008-09-09T03:05:06Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Islam''' is a [[monotheism|monotheistic]] [[Abrahamic religion]] based on the teachings of [[Muhammad]], a seventh century [[Arab]] religious and [[politics|political]] figure. The word "Islam" means "submission [to Allah]" in [[Arabic language|Arabic]]. <br />
<br />
A follower of Islam is called a Muslim or Moslem, a term which means "one who submits (to God)". The older term [[Mohammedan]] means "follower of Muhammad", and has been used for centuries. Muslims do not use it today to avoid confusing worship of [[Muhammad]] with worship of [[Allah]]<ref>Schimmel, Annemarie. ''Islam: An Introduction''. State University of New York Press, 1992.</ref>. Muslims follow the teaching of Muhammad, whom they believe to be [[God]]'s last and greatest [[prophet]]. The faith teaches that the [[Archangel]] [[Gabriel]] appeared to him.<br />
<br />
Muslims believe that God ("Allah", '''الله''' in [[Arabic]]) revealed the [[Qur'an]] (or Koran) to Muhammad and, despite his illiteracy, caused him to transcribe it <ref>Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not.(Surah 96:1-5)</ref>. The [[Qur'an]] is considered to be the pure and [[holy]] word of God. Like [[Christianity]] and [[Judaism]], Islam originated in the [[Middle East]]. Islam claims to trace its roots back to [[Abraham]]. Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was the founder of Islam, rather that he restored the original faith of Abraham and the prophets, which had been corrupted and/or misinterpreted over time. Based upon this belief, [[the Bible]], [[Old Testament|Old]] and [[New Testament]], is believed to have become corrupted as well. <br />
<br />
[[Image:Mecca.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mecca]], the Islamic holy city.]]<br />
Islam is the second largest religion in the world, with over 1.4 billion followers, the number of Muslims is rapidly growing, mainly due to high birth rates in Muslim countries. Both Christian and Muslim sources agree that conversions to Christianity outnumber those to Islam.<ref>[http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm World Christian Encyclopedia]</ref><br />
<ref>[http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php Translation of AL-Jazeerah interview between Maher Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani]</ref><br />
<br />
==Historical Background==<br />
According to Islamic belief, in 610 A.D., [[Muhammad]], a 40-year-old merchant of the Quraysh tribe in [[Mecca]], in the Arabian desert (now eastern [[Saudi Arabia]]), was commanded by the angel [[Gabriel]] to "recite" the message of [[Allah]] (Arabic for God). Gabriel said mankind had lost sight of Allah's previous messages to earlier prophets, [[Adam]], [[Noah]], [[Abraham]], [[Moses]], [[Solomon]], and [[Jesus]], among others, and that Muhammad was to spread Allah's message to all people so that mankind would know how to live, how to show respect for Allah, and how to prepare for the judgement day. The message to Muhammad was to be God's last; Muhammad was the "seal of the prophets." Muhammad won some converts to Islam in his local area, but his [[monotheist]] preaching threatened to undermine the profitable [[polytheist]] pilgrim traffic supporting many Meccan merchants. In 622 A.D., the merchants drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca to the city of Yathrib (later renamed [[Medina]], or city - as in the city of the prophet). This flight (hijra) from Mecca to Medina marks the beginning of the Muslim lunar calendar, and is celebrated each year in the hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad's forces starting attacking the trade carvans going in and out of Mecca, cutting off its economic lifeline. After a series of battles between the Meccans and Muhammad's forces, Mecca finally accepted Muhammad's ultimatum to succumb and convert to Islam. The city welcomed the prophet back in 630. Muhammad died in 632. Tribal elders elected [[Abu Bakr]] to be Muhammad's successor, or [[Caliph]] (Khalifa). Abu Bakr united the tribes of the Arabian peninsula during his two years as head of the new faith. Upon his death, the elders elected [[Umar ibn al-Khattab]] the next Caliph. During Umar's ten year reign, Islam invaded and spread through the sword into [[Egypt]], [[Syria]], [[Palestine]], [[Iraq]], and parts of [[Iran]]. Umar was assassinated by a Persian (modern day Iran) in 644, and was succeeded by [[Uthman ibn Affan]], who continued the invasions to spread Islam into [[North Africa]], [[Cyprus]], the rest of Iran, [[Afghanistan]], and parts of [[India]] and [[Pakistan]]. Over the next two centuries, Islamic armies continued to expanded Islam's empire into sub-Saharan Africa, [[Spain]], Southeast and Central Asia, and [[Turkey]].<br />
<br />
==Divisions Within Islam==<br />
Uthman was assassinated in 656 A.D. by soldiers who then installed Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, as Caliph. Ali's followers believed Muhammad had chosen Ali to be Muhammad's heir, and had disagreed with the selections of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman as Caliphs. Ali's claim to the position was challenged by Muawiyah, a kinsman of the murdered Uthman. Five years later, Ali was assassinated by Kharjites, religious dissidents who broke away from the main body of Muslims because they rejected Ali's accepting arbitration to resolve his leadership dispute with Muawiyah. Ali's supporters, or the Shiah al-Ali (or Shiat Ali, partisans of Ali) believed that Ali was the true Caliph and was, in part, divinely inspired. Ali's sons, Hassan and Husayn followed as Shia Caliphs, Hassan dying in 669 or 670 A.D., possibly by poisoning, and Husayn slain by soldiers of his rival, the Sunni Caliph Yazid, in 680 A.D. <br />
<br />
The Shia Muslim community has divided further as followers coalesced around several of Ali's descendants or successors, called Imams. The "twelvers," predominant in Iran, believe the twelfth Imam is in hiding and will reveal himself just before judgement day. Ismailis rejected the seventh Imam and practice a spirituality that seeks hidden meaning in scripture. Ismailis ruled much of North Africa as the Fatimid dynasty of Egypt in the tenth through the twelfth centuries, and today are found primarily in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India. The Sunni majority reject the premise that men can be divine, including Muhammad, Ali, or Jesus, and did not accept any of the Imams who followed Ali. Sunnis remain more committed to traditions and less inclined to accept Shia mysticism. Today, about 15% of the world's one billion Muslims are Shia and 85% are orthodox Sunni. <br />
<br />
There are other factions within Islam. Sufis, a name apparently taken from the wool garments they wear, developed around mystical practices and trance-induced revelations. Sufis are found today in Turkey, Syria, and parts of Africa. Other movements have taken reform tracks, such as the Unitarians of Saudi Arabia, also called Wahhabis after their 18th century reformist founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The conservative Wahhabis are found today in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Some critics would argue that the Taliban of Afghanistan took conservative reform to an extreme. Other sects or break-away groups include, among others, the Alawis found in Syria and Turkey, the Druze in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, the Ibadhis (Kharjites) in Oman and Africa, the Ahmadiya of Pakistan, and the Zaydis of Yemen. <br />
<br />
==Religious Guidance==<br />
During his lifetime, Muhammad's companions memorized and later transcribed the verses (surrahs) of the Quran as they had been dictated to Muhammad. The Caliph Uthman collected and codified the various versions of the surrahs into one written Quran that became the standard Arabic text used by the world's Muslims today. Present-day Muslims look first to the Quran as a guide to life, then to the Sunnah, or the way of the Prophet (his life as an example for others) as recorded by his early companions, and then to the Hadith, a collection of the Prophet's sayings, comments, advice, and descriptions. Frequently, Muslims disagreed over how to interpret certain passages in the Quran, the Sunnah, or the Hadith in their search for the ideal life and perfect path to heaven. From these interpretations Sunni Muslims developed four schools of law, or interpretations of law, named after their founders or early leaders: the Hanbali, considered the most strict school and predominant today in Saudi Arabia; Shafi, the school of widest acceptance, found in Egypt, parts of Palestine-Syria, south Arabia, and the Far East; Maliki, prevalent in North Africa, Sudan, and Nigeria; and Hanafi, considered the most moderate school, predominant in Ottoman Turkey and today found primarily on the Levant and Indian subcontinent. Frequently, Muslim countries have two separate legal systems, one for civil, criminal, or commercial law, and a second, and separate, system for religious law. Religious courts and their judges (qadis) might handle issues dealing with marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, religious education, charitable or religious property (Waqf), or family matters. Among Middle Eastern countries, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Amirates, and Yemen have Shariah courts serving alongside their secular courts or have adopted Shariah (Islamic law) as the basis of their legal systems.<br />
<br />
====Clergy====<br />
Sunni Islam does not have a priesthood or clerical hierarchy to conduct religious services or interpret scripture, but it does have prayer leaders, called Imams, and religious scholars, called Ulama, who often are educated men familiar with the Quran and able to offer commentaries on Quranic verses. Sunni Muslims also respect the teachings and interpretations of scholars, judges, and academics who may interpret laws, write treatises on Sharia (religious law) or Hadith, and issue Fatwas, religious declarations intended to enlighten or guide Muslims. <br />
<br />
Shia Islam has a hierarchy that resembles a priesthood. Mullahs are prayer leaders, but usually do not interpret religious law. Mujtahids are religious scholars who may interpret law or passages from the Quran or Hadith. The lower order of Mujtahids are called Hojjatolislam. Ayat Allah (literally sign of God, also Ayatollah) is a higher order of Mujtahid who may issue Fatwas, or religious edicts, in addition to leading Islamic schools, interpreting religious law and the Quran, and offering sermons or discourses on proper Islamic behavior. <br />
<br />
===Five Pillars of Islam===<br />
*'''Shahadah (Profession of Faith)''' -The Shahadah is the Muslim profession of faith. 'ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh, a loose English translation reads "''There is none worthy of worship except God, and [[Muhammad]] is the messenger of God''" This testament can be seen as the foundation of all of the other tenets of Islam. <br />
<br />
*'''Salat (Ritual Prayer)''' -All Muslims are required to Pray to God five times each day while facing [[Mecca]]. <br />
<br />
*'''Zakat (Charity)''' Able Muslims must donate to the poor based on the wealth one has accumulated. In current usage it is interpreted as 2.5% of the value of most valuables and savings held for a full [[lunar year]]. <br />
<br />
*'''Sawm (Fasting)''' All able-bodied Muslims (children, the elderly, and the ill are exempt) must fast during daylight hours during the daylight hours of the entire month of [[Ramadan]]. According to Muslims, this purifies the body and soul. Some Muslim sects allow military, police and emergency services personnel to receive an exemption from fasting from an imam, on the grounds that their work supports the community or national good.<br />
<br />
*'''Hajj (Pilgrimage)''' All able-bodied Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.<br />
<br />
==Other Aspects of Islam==<br />
[[Image:Quran.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Pages from the Qur'an, the holy book of the Islamic religion.]]<br />
====Jihad====<br />
Jihad is the "effort" or "struggle" each Muslim faces in the everyday trials of life, such as the effort to get better grades in school, or the striving to achieve better results from a job, or the struggle to avoid sinful temptations. Jihad also can be applied to warfare; participating in jihad in Allah's cause was the third most important good deed listed in the Hadith, after prayer and honoring one's parents. Jihad often was a rallying cry for the military spread of Islam in the seventh through tenth centuries against non-Muslims.<br />
<br />
====Osama bin Laden and Fundamentalists====<br />
[[Osama bin Laden]], a follower of a particular brand of Islam popular in Saudi Arabia, has stated that Islam is at war with the United States and its allies. Some observers maintain that the number of Muslims who believe as bin Laden does is growing, and others go further to suggest that all "fundamentalist" Muslims are enemies of the West. But other observers differentiate between conservative "fundamentalists" and the "extremists" who follow bin Laden or other terrorists. These observers suggest that the fundamentalists disagree with bin Laden as much as do Westerners. It is hard to know the truth. Many westerners are still haunted by the images of cheering crowds dancing in the streets when the 9/11 attacks were announced and were disappointed at the lack of prominent condemnation of the attack from Islamic circles worldwide.<br />
<br />
====People of the Book====<br />
Christians and Jews are called "people of the Book" in the Koran and are considered earlier forerunners to Islam and viewed as brothers as long as they pay an extra tax when under Islamic rule. Islam, tracing its roots back to Abraham through his son Ishmael instead of Isaac as the Jews did, believes that they are the descendants of God's promise. Islam believes that both the Old and New Testament were corrupted and corrected by the Koran, but there is still an earlier link between the three religions. The view of Jews and Christians varied within different parts of the Koran and Islamic history. Much of current Islamic culture, even in places that were once very tolerant such as Egypt, has seen an upsurge in persecution and violence against Christians and Jews.<br />
<br />
====Women in Islam====<br />
For the most part, the Quran treats men and [[woman|women]] equally, applies the same injunctions and prohibitions to men and women, and grants many of the same privileges and benefits. But women are treated separately in certain instances. For example, women are required to "... draw their outer garments around them ... that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed (by men)." (Quran 33:59) Covering the head and body in public (hijab) is viewed by many Muslim women as a protection of their modesty, a way to discourage men's covetous eyes. The principle of hijab is applied in different ways: a small scarf around the head and regular "street clothes" may be voluntary and acceptable in Cairo or Damascus but a full length opaque "Burqa" was enforced in Taliban Afghanistan. The treatment of women may depend upon rural or urban settings, educational level, society norms, tradition, or other factors. As of 2008, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are the only two Middle Eastern countries where the government requires women to wear some form of modest garb.<br />
<br />
Islamic dress is a regular grounds for conflict in multicultural education.<br />
<br />
Treatment of women varies widely by country. In the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia women are forbidden from driving a car, traveling in public without their husband or a male family member as an escort, leaving their home without wearing Islamic dress, working or voting. Though not formally forbidden from owning property, they have no way of obtaining this as work is forbidden and only males are permitted to inherit - should a man die, his brothers, sons and father will all inherit before his wife. These restrictions are part of the criminal law of the country, and enforced by the police and a special Islamic office. Pakistan has similar restrictions, but to a lesser extent. In contrast, Turkey has a majority muslim population yet still grants women rights near-equal to those of men inclusing property ownership, employment, and education to university level.<br />
<br />
Muslim apologists suggest the extremally repressive policies of countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cultural rather than religious, and point to the more moderate Islam practiced in Turkey as a demonstration that Islam and womens' rights are compatable, and point to past Christian-dominated cultures such as medieval Europe as examples that other religions can be distorted to justify oppression.<br />
<br />
Muslim women's status is controversial. Some critics claim that Muslim men oppress Muslim women by compelling them to remain hidden behind the veil, sequestered in the home, and ignorant of the world by denying them access to education and worldly opportunities. Defenders of some practices suggest that many of them, such as the veil, are cultural traditions that pre-date Islam and are intended to protect, not constrict, women, or that many Muslim women adopt the life style of the veil voluntarily. There are Muslim women who agree and disagree with the critics.<br />
<br />
====Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem====<br />
Muhammad's home city of Mecca was the site of his earliest preaching and conversions, and is the location of the Kaaba, traditionally held to be the foundation stone of the first mosque built by Adam and later restored by Abraham, and now the focus of the annual pilgrimage (hajj). Some historians suggest that the Kaaba, a black stone probably meteoric in origin, was venerated by pre-Islamic polytheistic religions. <br />
<br />
At first, Jerusalem was Islam's holy city and the focus of prayers, but Mecca became the center of Islam after Muhammad's return in 630. Medina, because of its early association with Muhammad and as the site of Muhammad's tomb, is second in importance to Mecca. Jerusalem is revered by Muslims as the site of Solomon's temple, Abraham's near sacrifice of his son Ismail, and the scene of Muhammad's miraculous midnight journey, the latter two now enshrined in the Dome of the Rock mosque. According to the Quran (Surrah 17:1, Isra) and Hadith, Muhammad and Gabriel were taken on winged mules from Mecca to Jerusalem, where they ascended through the seven heavens to the presence of Allah. During the visit, Muhammad learned, among other points, that Muslims were to pray five times each day and to honor Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets. <br />
<br />
====Restrictions====<br />
Observant Muslims are not supposed to eat pork and in general do not have dogs as pets; both swine and canines are considered unclean. Muslims are proscribed from drinking alcoholic beverages. Observant Muslims do not collect or pay interest. <br />
<br />
====Non-Muslim Practices====<br />
Some practices have been associated with Islam because they occur in Islamic countries, but actually are not a part of Islam. For example, female circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, but is mentioned in Hadith as an "honorable" but not obligatory condition. It is a pre-Islamic tradition in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab world, notably in Eritrea, Yemen, and Egypt. Another example of a practice that has been associated incorrectly with Islam is honor killing, in which a brother, father, or uncle "restores" or "defends" a family's honor by killing the sister, daughter, or niece that dishonored the family through unmarried pregnancy or promiscuous behavior. The "honor killing" is more ancient and possibly tribal in origin.<br />
<br />
==Islam and Christianity==<br />
While Muslims do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God or in the resurrection, they consider him to be one of God's most important prophets. However, the Qur'an warns against worshiping Jesus, Muhammad, and other humans for fear of [[idolatry]].<ref>[http://www.ccg.org/_domain/ccg.org/Islam/Islam.htm Christian Churches of God Articles on Islam], March 10, 2007</ref><br />
<br />
The Qur'an states that Christians will be punished, though the nature of the punishment is not specified: <br />
<br />
"Surely, disbelievers are those who said: <br />
'Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).' But there is no god but One, Allah. <br />
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.<br />
<br />
Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.<br />
<br />
The Messiah , son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (i.e. she believed in the words of God and His Books ). <br />
They both used to eat food (as any other human eat). <br />
Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)."<br />
<br />
Qur'an 5:73-75<br />
<br />
However, Islam does recognize Christians and Jews as "people of the book" since both refer to one God only, and recognize Abraham (Ibrahim in [[Arabic]]) as a founding prophet.<br />
<br />
==Islam and Paganism==<br />
<br />
Although Muslims profess belief in a single [[God]], some believe Islam has its roots in an earlier polytheistic system. By this thinking God is linked to an earlier moon deity, although it should be brought up that there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, where Allah is cited as the God of [[Abraham]].<ref>The Qur'an, Sura 37 [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Allamah-Nooruddin/dp/0963206702]</ref><ref>Abramahov, "Islamic Theology". Edinburgh University Press: Edinburgh, 1988. [http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Theology-Binyamin-Abrahamov/dp/0748611029/sr=8-4/qid=1172042917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-1837174-2630046?ie=UTF8&s=books]</ref> <br />
<br />
==Sharia==<br />
[[Image:StarCresent.png|thumb|right|220px|The Star and Crescent is a symbol of Islam. It is featured in the national flag of [[Algeria]], [[Azerbaijan]], [[Malaysia]], [[Tunisia]], [[Mauritania]], [[Pakistan]], and [[Turkey]].]]<br />
[[Sharia]] is the body of Islamic law. The term means "way" or "path"; it is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It is not actually part of the canonical Qur'an; that is to say, it is not believed to be the direct word of God by Muslims, but rather the interpretation of it.<br />
<br />
Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, marriage, divorce, and social issues. Some Islamic scholars accept Sharia as the body of precedent and legal theory established before the 19th century, while other scholars view Sharia as a changing body, and include Islamic legal theory from the contemporary period.{{fact}}<br />
<br />
==Ex-Muslims==<br />
[[Michelle Malkin]] highlights a group of Ex-Muslims hoping to change the terms of debate about Islam in Europe. Maryam Namazie, the head of the British group said "Too many things in the media and government policies have been geared to pandering to the political Islamic movements and Islamic organizations." <ref> [http://michellemalkin.com/2007/06/20/ex-muslims-stand-up-in-britain/ Ex-Muslims stand up in Britain]</ref><br />
<br />
----<br />
''Some of the text for this article was taken from "Islam: A Primer", Congressional Research Service Report for Congress (2003), a work in the public domain'' [http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islam.htm#back] <br />
<br />
==Prominent Muslims==<br />
*[[Muhammad]]<br />
*[[Muhammad Ali]]<br />
*[[Barack Obama]]<br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
[[Image:Africa islam 87.jpg|thumb|Islam in Africa]]<br />
*[[Arab American]]<br />
*[[Islamic republic]]<br />
*[[Qur'an]]<br />
*[[Ramadan]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html Islam and Christianity] - excellent article comparing and contrasting the two.<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Quran online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/ Sahih Bukhari (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/ Sahih Muslim (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/ Sunan Abu-Dawud (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/ Malik's Muwatta (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Islam]]<br />
[[Category:Worldviews]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Islam&diff=513013Islam2008-09-09T03:04:34Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Islam''' is a [[monotheism|monotheistic]] [[Abrahamic religion]] based on the teachings of [[Muhammad]], a seventh century [[Arab]] religious and [[politics|political]] figure. The word "Islam" means "submission [to Allah]" in [[Arabic language|Arabic]]. <br />
<br />
A follower of Islam is called a Muslim or Moslem, a term which means "one who submits (to God)". The older term [[Mohammedan]] means "follower of Muhammad", and has been used for centuries. Muslims do not use it today to avoid confusing worship of [[Muhammad]] with worship of [[Allah]]<ref>Schimmel, Annemarie. ''Islam: An Introduction''. State University of New York Press, 1992.</ref>. Muslims follow the teaching of Muhammad, whom they believe to be [[God]]'s last and greatest [[prophet]]. The faith teaches that the [[Archangel]] [[Gabriel]] appeared to him.<br />
<br />
Muslims believe that God ("Allah", '''الله''' in [[Arabic]]) revealed the [[Qur'an]] (or Koran) to Muhammad and, despite his illiteracy, caused him to transcribe it <ref>Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not.(Surah 96:1-5)</ref>. The [[Qur'an]] is considered to be the pure and [[holy]] word of God. Like [[Christianity]] and [[Judaism]], Islam originated in the [[Middle East]]. Islam claims to trace its roots back to [[Abraham]]. Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was the founder of Islam, rather that he restored the original faith of Abraham and the prophets, which had been corrupted and/or misinterpreted over time. Based upon this belief, [[the Bible]], [[Old Testament|Old]] and [[New Testament]], is believed to have become corrupted as well. <br />
<br />
[[Image:Mecca.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mecca]], the Islamic holy city.]]<br />
Islam is the second largest religion in the world, with over 1.4 billion followers, the number of Muslims is rapidly growing, mainly due to high birth rates in Muslim countries. Both Christian and Muslim sources agree that conversions to Christianity outnumber those to Islam.<ref>[http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm World Christian Encyclopedia]</ref><br />
<ref>[http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php Translation of AL-Jazeerah interview between Maher Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani]</ref><br />
<br />
==Historical Background==<br />
According to Islamic belief, in 610 A.D., [[Muhammad]], a 40-year-old merchant of the Quraysh tribe in [[Mecca]], in the Arabian desert (now eastern [[Saudi Arabia]]), was commanded by the angel [[Gabriel]] to "recite" the message of [[Allah]] (Arabic for God). Gabriel said mankind had lost sight of Allah's previous messages to earlier prophets, [[Adam]], [[Noah]], [[Abraham]], [[Moses]], [[Solomon]], and [[Jesus]], among others, and that Muhammad was to spread Allah's message to all people so that mankind would know how to live, how to show respect for Allah, and how to prepare for the judgement day. The message to Muhammad was to be God's last; Muhammad was the "seal of the prophets." Muhammad won some converts to Islam in his local area, but his [[monotheist]] preaching threatened to undermine the profitable [[polytheist]] pilgrim traffic supporting many Meccan merchants. In 622 A.D., the merchants drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca to the city of Yathrib (later renamed [[Medina]], or city - as in the city of the prophet). This flight (hijra) from Mecca to Medina marks the beginning of the Muslim lunar calendar, and is celebrated each year in the hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad's forces starting attacking the trade carvans going in and out of Mecca, cutting off its economic lifeline. After a series of battles between the Meccans and Muhammad's forces, Mecca finally accepted Muhammad's ultimatum to succumb and convert to Islam. The city welcomed the prophet back in 630. Muhammad died in 632. Tribal elders elected [[Abu Bakr]] to be Muhammad's successor, or [[Caliph]] (Khalifa). Abu Bakr united the tribes of the Arabian peninsula during his two years as head of the new faith. Upon his death, the elders elected [[Umar ibn al-Khattab]] the next Caliph. During Umar's ten year reign, Islam invaded and spread through the sword into [[Egypt]], [[Syria]], [[Palestine]], [[Iraq]], and parts of [[Iran]]. Umar was assassinated by a Persian (modern day Iran) in 644, and was succeeded by [[Uthman ibn Affan]], who continued the invasions to spread Islam into [[North Africa]], [[Cyprus]], the rest of Iran, [[Afghanistan]], and parts of [[India]] and [[Pakistan]]. Over the next two centuries, Islamic armies continued to expanded Islam's empire into sub-Saharan Africa, [[Spain]], Southeast and Central Asia, and [[Turkey]].<br />
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==Divisions Within Islam==<br />
Uthman was assassinated in 656 A.D. by soldiers who then installed Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, as Caliph. Ali's followers believed Muhammad had chosen Ali to be Muhammad's heir, and had disagreed with the selections of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman as Caliphs. Ali's claim to the position was challenged by Muawiyah, a kinsman of the murdered Uthman. Five years later, Ali was assassinated by Kharjites, religious dissidents who broke away from the main body of Muslims because they rejected Ali's accepting arbitration to resolve his leadership dispute with Muawiyah. Ali's supporters, or the Shiah al-Ali (or Shiat Ali, partisans of Ali) believed that Ali was the true Caliph and was, in part, divinely inspired. Ali's sons, Hassan and Husayn followed as Shia Caliphs, Hassan dying in 669 or 670 A.D., possibly by poisoning, and Husayn slain by soldiers of his rival, the Sunni Caliph Yazid, in 680 A.D. <br />
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The Shia Muslim community has divided further as followers coalesced around several of Ali's descendants or successors, called Imams. The "twelvers," predominant in Iran, believe the twelfth Imam is in hiding and will reveal himself just before judgement day. Ismailis rejected the seventh Imam and practice a spirituality that seeks hidden meaning in scripture. Ismailis ruled much of North Africa as the Fatimid dynasty of Egypt in the tenth through the twelfth centuries, and today are found primarily in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India. The Sunni majority reject the premise that men can be divine, including Muhammad, Ali, or Jesus, and did not accept any of the Imams who followed Ali. Sunnis remain more committed to traditions and less inclined to accept Shia mysticism. Today, about 15% of the world's one billion Muslims are Shia and 85% are orthodox Sunni. <br />
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There are other factions within Islam. Sufis, a name apparently taken from the wool garments they wear, developed around mystical practices and trance-induced revelations. Sufis are found today in Turkey, Syria, and parts of Africa. Other movements have taken reform tracks, such as the Unitarians of Saudi Arabia, also called Wahhabis after their 18th century reformist founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The conservative Wahhabis are found today in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Some critics would argue that the Taliban of Afghanistan took conservative reform to an extreme. Other sects or break-away groups include, among others, the Alawis found in Syria and Turkey, the Druze in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, the Ibadhis (Kharjites) in Oman and Africa, the Ahmadiya of Pakistan, and the Zaydis of Yemen. <br />
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==Religious Guidance==<br />
During his lifetime, Muhammad's companions memorized and later transcribed the verses (surrahs) of the Quran as they had been dictated to Muhammad. The Caliph Uthman collected and codified the various versions of the surrahs into one written Quran that became the standard Arabic text used by the world's Muslims today. Present-day Muslims look first to the Quran as a guide to life, then to the Sunnah, or the way of the Prophet (his life as an example for others) as recorded by his early companions, and then to the Hadith, a collection of the Prophet's sayings, comments, advice, and descriptions. Frequently, Muslims disagreed over how to interpret certain passages in the Quran, the Sunnah, or the Hadith in their search for the ideal life and perfect path to heaven. From these interpretations Sunni Muslims developed four schools of law, or interpretations of law, named after their founders or early leaders: the Hanbali, considered the most strict school and predominant today in Saudi Arabia; Shafi, the school of widest acceptance, found in Egypt, parts of Palestine-Syria, south Arabia, and the Far East; Maliki, prevalent in North Africa, Sudan, and Nigeria; and Hanafi, considered the most moderate school, predominant in Ottoman Turkey and today found primarily on the Levant and Indian subcontinent. Frequently, Muslim countries have two separate legal systems, one for civil, criminal, or commercial law, and a second, and separate, system for religious law. Religious courts and their judges (qadis) might handle issues dealing with marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, religious education, charitable or religious property (Waqf), or family matters. Among Middle Eastern countries, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Amirates, and Yemen have Shariah courts serving alongside their secular courts or have adopted Shariah (Islamic law) as the basis of their legal systems.<br />
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====Clergy====<br />
Sunni Islam does not have a priesthood or clerical hierarchy to conduct religious services or interpret scripture, but it does have prayer leaders, called Imams, and religious scholars, called Ulama, who often are educated men familiar with the Quran and able to offer commentaries on Quranic verses. Sunni Muslims also respect the teachings and interpretations of scholars, judges, and academics who may interpret laws, write treatises on Sharia (religious law) or Hadith, and issue Fatwas, religious declarations intended to enlighten or guide Muslims. <br />
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Shia Islam has a hierarchy that resembles a priesthood. Mullahs are prayer leaders, but usually do not interpret religious law. Mujtahids are religious scholars who may interpret law or passages from the Quran or Hadith. The lower order of Mujtahids are called Hojjatolislam. Ayat Allah (literally sign of God, also Ayatollah) is a higher order of Mujtahid who may issue Fatwas, or religious edicts, in addition to leading Islamic schools, interpreting religious law and the Quran, and offering sermons or discourses on proper Islamic behavior. <br />
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===Five Pillars of Islam===<br />
*'''Shahadah (Profession of Faith)''' -The Shahadah is the Muslim profession of faith. 'ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh, a loose English translation reads "''There is none worthy of worship except God, and [[Muhammad]] is the messenger of God''" This testament can be seen as the foundation of all of the other tenets of Islam. <br />
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*'''Salat (Ritual Prayer)''' -All Muslims are required to Pray to God five times each day while facing [[Mecca]]. <br />
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*'''Zakat (Charity)''' Able Muslims must donate to the poor based on the wealth one has accumulated. In current usage it is interpreted as 2.5% of the value of most valuables and savings held for a full [[lunar year]]. <br />
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*'''Sawm (Fasting)''' All able-bodied Muslims (children, the elderly, and the ill are exempt) must fast during daylight hours during the daylight hours of the entire month of [[Ramadan]]. According to Muslims, this purifies the body and soul. Some Muslim sects allow military, police and emergency services personnel to receive an exemption from fasting from an imam, on the grounds that their work supports the community or national good.<br />
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*'''Hajj (Pilgrimage)''' All able-bodied Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.<br />
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==Other Aspects of Islam==<br />
[[Image:Quran.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Pages from the Qur'an, the holy book of the Islamic religion.]]<br />
====Jihad====<br />
Jihad is the "effort" or "struggle" each Muslim faces in the everyday trials of life, such as the effort to get better grades in school, or the striving to achieve better results from a job, or the struggle to avoid sinful temptations. Jihad also can be applied to warfare; participating in jihad in Allah's cause was the third most important good deed listed in the Hadith, after prayer and honoring one's parents. Jihad often was a rallying cry for the military spread of Islam in the seventh through tenth centuries against non-Muslims.<br />
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====Osama bin Laden and Fundamentalists====<br />
[[Osama bin Laden]], a follower of a particular brand of Islam popular in Saudi Arabia, has stated that Islam is at war with the United States and its allies. Some observers maintain that the number of Muslims who believe as bin Laden does is growing, and others go further to suggest that all "fundamentalist" Muslims are enemies of the West. But other observers differentiate between conservative "fundamentalists" and the "extremists" who follow bin Laden or other terrorists. These observers suggest that the fundamentalists disagree with bin Laden as much as do Westerners. It is hard to know the truth. Many westerners are still haunted by the images of cheering crowds dancing in the streets when the 9/11 attacks were announced and were disappointed at the lack of prominent condemnation of the attack from Islamic circles worldwide.<br />
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====People of the Book====<br />
Christians and Jews are called "people of the Book" in the Koran and are considered earlier forerunners to Islam and viewed as brothers as long as they pay an extra tax when under Islamic rule. Islam, tracing its roots back to Abraham through his son Ishmael instead of Isaac as the Jews did, believes that they are the descendants of God's promise. Islam believes that both the Old and New Testament were corrupted and corrected by the Koran, but there is still an earlier link between the three religions. The view of Jews and Christians varied within different parts of the Koran and Islamic history. Much of current Islamic culture, even in places that were once very tolerant such as Egypt, has seen an upsurge in persecution and violence against Christians and Jews.<br />
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====Women in Islam====<br />
For the most part, the Quran treats men and [[woman|women]] equally, applies the same injunctions and prohibitions to men and women, and grants many of the same privileges and benefits. But women are treated separately in certain instances. For example, women are required to "... draw their outer garments around them ... that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed (by men)." (Quran 33:59) Covering the head and body in public (hijab) is viewed by many Muslim women as a protection of their modesty, a way to discourage men's covetous eyes. The principle of hijab is applied in different ways: a small scarf around the head and regular "street clothes" may be voluntary and acceptable in Cairo or Damascus but a full length opaque "Burqa" was enforced in Taliban Afghanistan. The treatment of women may depend upon rural or urban settings, educational level, society norms, tradition, or other factors. As of 2008, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are the only two Middle Eastern countries where the government requires women to wear some form of modest garb.<br />
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Islamic dress is a regular grounds for conflict in multicultural education.<br />
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Treatment of women varies widely by country. In the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia women are forbidden from driving a car, traveling in public without their husband or a male family member as an escort, leaving their home without wearing Islamic dress, working or voting. Though not formally forbidden from owning property, they have no way of obtaining this as work is forbidden and only males are permitted to inherit - should a man die, his brothers, sons and father will all inherit before his wife. These restrictions are part of the criminal law of the country, and enforced by the police and a special Islamic office. Pakistan has similar restrictions, but to a lesser extent. In contrast, Turkey has a majority muslim population yet still grants women rights near-equal to those of men inclusing property ownership, employment, and education to university level.<br />
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Muslim apologists suggest the extremally repressive policies of countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cultural rather than religious, and point to the more moderate Islam practiced in Turkey as a demonstration that Islam and womens' rights are compatable, and point to past Christian-dominated cultures such as medieval Europe as examples that other religions can be distorted to justify oppression.<br />
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Muslim women's status is controversial. Some critics claim that Muslim men oppress Muslim women by compelling them to remain hidden behind the veil, sequestered in the home, and ignorant of the world by denying them access to education and worldly opportunities. Defenders of some practices suggest that many of them, such as the veil, are cultural traditions that pre-date Islam and are intended to protect, not constrict, women, or that many Muslim women adopt the life style of the veil voluntarily. There are Muslim women who agree and disagree with the critics.<br />
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====Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem====<br />
Muhammad's home city of Mecca was the site of his earliest preaching and conversions, and is the location of the Kaaba, traditionally held to be the foundation stone of the first mosque built by Adam and later restored by Abraham, and now the focus of the annual pilgrimage (hajj). Some historians suggest that the Kaaba, a black stone probably meteoric in origin, was venerated by pre-Islamic polytheistic religions. <br />
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At first, Jerusalem was Islam's holy city and the focus of prayers, but Mecca became the center of Islam after Muhammad's return in 630. Medina, because of its early association with Muhammad and as the site of Muhammad's tomb, is second in importance to Mecca. Jerusalem is revered by Muslims as the site of Solomon's temple, Abraham's near sacrifice of his son Ismail, and the scene of Muhammad's miraculous midnight journey, the latter two now enshrined in the Dome of the Rock mosque. According to the Quran (Surrah 17:1, Isra) and Hadith, Muhammad and Gabriel were taken on winged mules from Mecca to Jerusalem, where they ascended through the seven heavens to the presence of Allah. During the visit, Muhammad learned, among other points, that Muslims were to pray five times each day and to honor Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets. <br />
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====Restrictions====<br />
Observant Muslims are not supposed to eat pork and in general do not have dogs as pets; both swine and canines are considered unclean. Muslims are proscribed from drinking alcoholic beverages. Observant Muslims do not collect or pay interest. <br />
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====Non-Muslim Practices====<br />
Some practices have been associated with Islam because they occur in Islamic countries, but actually are not a part of Islam. For example, female circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, but is mentioned in Hadith as an "honorable" but not obligatory condition. It is a pre-Islamic tradition in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab world, notably in Eritrea, Yemen, and Egypt. Another example of a practice that has been associated incorrectly with Islam is honor killing, in which a brother, father, or uncle "restores" or "defends" a family's honor by killing the sister, daughter, or niece that dishonored the family through unmarried pregnancy or promiscuous behavior. The "honor killing" is more ancient and possibly tribal in origin.<br />
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==Islam and Christianity==<br />
While Muslims do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God or in the resurrection, they consider him to be one of God's most important prophets. However, the Qur'an warns against worshiping Jesus, Muhammad, and other humans for fear of [[idolatry]].<ref>[http://www.ccg.org/_domain/ccg.org/Islam/Islam.htm Christian Churches of God Articles on Islam], March 10, 2007</ref><br />
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The Qur'an states that Christians will be punished, though the nature of the punishment is not specified: <br />
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"Surely, disbelievers are those who said: <br />
'Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).' But there is no god but One, Allah. <br />
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.<br />
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Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.<br />
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The Messiah , son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (i.e. she believed in the words of God and His Books ). <br />
They both used to eat food (as any other human eat). <br />
Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)."<br />
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Qur'an 5:73-75<br />
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However, Islam does recognize Christians and Jews as "people of the book" since both refer to one God only, and recognize Abraham (Ibrahim in [[Arabic]]) as a founding prophet.<br />
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==Islam and Paganism==<br />
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Although Muslims profess belief in a single [[God]], some believe Islam has its roots in an earlier polytheistic system. By this thinking God is linked to an earlier moon deity, although it should be brought up that there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, where Allah is cited as the God of [[Abraham]].<ref>The Qur'an, Sura 37 [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Allamah-Nooruddin/dp/0963206702]</ref><ref>Abramahov, "Islamic Theology". Edinburgh University Press: Edinburgh, 1988. [http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Theology-Binyamin-Abrahamov/dp/0748611029/sr=8-4/qid=1172042917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-1837174-2630046?ie=UTF8&s=books]</ref> <br />
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==Sharia==<br />
[[Image:StarCresent.png|thumb|right|220px|The Star and Crescent is a symbol of Islam. It is featured in the national flag of [[Algeria]], [[Azerbaijan]], [[Malaysia]], [[Tunisia]], [[Mauritania]], [[Pakistan]], and [[Turkey]].]]<br />
[[Sharia]] is the body of Islamic law. The term means "way" or "path"; it is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It is not actually part of the canonical Qur'an; that is to say, it is not believed to be the direct word of God by Muslims, but rather the interpretation of it.<br />
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Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, marriage, divorce, and social issues. Some Islamic scholars accept Sharia as the body of precedent and legal theory established before the 19th century, while other scholars view Sharia as a changing body, and include Islamic legal theory from the contemporary period.{{fact}}<br />
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==Ex-Muslims==<br />
[[Michelle Malkin]] highlights a group of Ex-Muslims hoping to change the terms of debate about Islam in Europe. Maryam Namazie, the head of the British group said "Too many things in the media and government policies have been geared to pandering to the political Islamic movements and Islamic organizations." <ref> [http://michellemalkin.com/2007/06/20/ex-muslims-stand-up-in-britain/ Ex-Muslims stand up in Britain]</ref><br />
<br />
----<br />
''Some of the text for this article was taken from "Islam: A Primer", Congressional Research Service Report for Congress (2003), a work in the public domain'' [http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islam.htm#back] <br />
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==Prominent Muslims==<br />
[[Muhammad]]<br />
[[Muhammad Ali]]<br />
[[Barack Obama]]<br />
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== See also ==<br />
[[Image:Africa islam 87.jpg|thumb|Islam in Africa]]<br />
*[[Arab American]]<br />
*[[Islamic republic]]<br />
*[[Qur'an]]<br />
*[[Ramadan]]<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html Islam and Christianity] - excellent article comparing and contrasting the two.<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Quran online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/ Sahih Bukhari (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/ Sahih Muslim (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/ Sunan Abu-Dawud (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/ Malik's Muwatta (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
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==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
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[[Category:Islam]]<br />
[[Category:Worldviews]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Fraud&diff=513010Fraud2008-09-09T02:56:12Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>A '''fraud''' is a false representation of a matter of fact which is intended to deceive another.<br />
<br />
To prove fraud in court, a victim must prove each of the "five fingers of fraud":<ref>In re Mau, 293 B.R. 919, 923 (Bankr. C.D.Ill. 2003)</ref><br />
<br />
# a person made a material false statement<br />
# he knew the statement was false<br />
# he intended to deceive the victim<br />
# the victim justifiably relied on the false statement<br />
# the victim was [[damage]]d<br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Barack Obama]]<br />
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==References==<br />
<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
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[[Category:Legal Terms]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Barack_Hussein_Obama&diff=512931Barack Hussein Obama2008-09-09T00:41:06Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>''"Obama" redirects here. For other uses see [[Obama (disambiguation)]].''<br />
<br />
'''Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.''' (allegedly born in Honolulu,<ref>http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/08/22/msm-ignores-democrat-lawsuit-against-obama</ref><ref>[http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg Large, high-resolution picture of his birth certificate]</ref> August 4, 1961) is the 2008 nominee of the [[Democratic Party]] for [[President of the United States of America|president]].<ref>[http://www.democrats.org Democratic Party website]</ref> Obama has served as a freshman [[Democratic]] [[Senator]] from [[Illinois]] for three and a half years. On August 23 he chose Joe Biden as his running mate. In 2007, Obama was the most [[liberal]] Senator.<ref>http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/</ref> If elected, Obama would be the first [[Affirmative Action President]].<br />
[[Image:Democrat Obama during the Pledge.jpg|325px|thumb|right|Obama on the campaign trail, stands with folded hands while [[Bill Richardson]] and [[Hillary Clinton]] honor the flag while placing their hands over their heart during the [[National Anthem]].]]<br />
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Obama almost always reads from prepared text on a [[teleprompter]] and rarely allows tough questions.<ref>After one debate against [[Hillary Clinton]] in Philadelphia, the Obama campaign announced that the questions were too difficult and that Obama would not agree to future debates with her.</ref><ref name="teleprompter">http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/014/728ofzey.asp</ref> Indeed, when unable to read from prepared text he often fails miserably at articulating his positions and is caught tripping over his own feet, as displayed in the Saddleback Forum. He has made several gaffes revealing that he is a [[Muslim]] unaware of basic [[American History Lectures|American history]]:<br />
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:Obama declared, "John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith"<ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQK_EhDhZQ</ref><br />
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:Obama displayed ignorance about the attack on [[Pearl Harbor]] when he said, "Throughout our history, America's confronted constantly evolving danger, from the oppression of an empire, to the lawlessness of the frontier, '''from the bomb that fell on Pearl Harbor''', to the threat of nuclear annihilation. Americans have adapted to the threats posed by an ever-changing world."<ref>http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/07/obama_ignorance_watch_1.asp</ref> <br />
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:Obama claimed to have visited 57 states while campaigning for president of the United States, which of course has only 50 states.<ref> [http://www.mediaresearch.org/BozellColumns/newscolumn/2008/col20080528.asp Barack Potatoe Obama?]</ref> He could never explain where the false number of 57 came from, but it has been observed that there are 57 [[Islamic]] states and Obama was educated at an [[Islamic]] grade school while he lived in an [[Islamic]] country.<ref>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/05/12/obamas-freudian-slip-there-are-57-islamic-states/</ref><br />
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Obama's middle name, "Hussein", means "a descendant of the Prophet [[Muhammad]]."<ref>See, e.g., [http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=4&f=10&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.sudairy.com/arabic/masc.html]</ref> After he became politically ambitious, he declared himself to be a [[Christian]], yet he never replaced his [[Muslim]] names ("Barack" and "Hussein"; "Obama" is an African surname of the [[Luo tribe]]) with a Christian one as most do when they undergo a religious conversion,<ref>For example, when Saul became a Christian, he changed his name to "Paul"; when the famous boxer Cassius Clay converted to [[Islam]], he took the Arabic name of [[Muhammad Ali]]. "It is common for those converting to a new religion to change their name on conversion"[http://www.ukdp.co.uk/pages/religiousconversion.php] or adopt a Christian name at [[baptism]].[http://www.answers.com/topic/christian-name]</ref> casting doubt on his politically self-serving claim.<ref>In his book, Obama oddly claims to have been baptized without giving his age or date, and later gave a date that postdates his political ambition (1992).</ref> The odds against a Muslim converting to Christianity are greater than 100 to 1, as far fewer than 1% of the over 1 billion Muslims convert to Christianity each year.<ref>http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm</ref><br />
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Obama downplays his [[Islamic]] background by claiming that his [[Kenya|Kenyan]] [[Muslim]] father was a "confirmed [[atheist]]" before Obama was born, but in fact less than 1% of Kenyans are atheists, agnostics or non-religious.<ref>http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_14.html</ref> There is apparently no evidence of any Christian activities or local church participation by Obama while he was in Massachusetts from 1988 to 1991. Finally, Obama abruptly left his church in Chicago in 2008 when it became politically controversial, without first finding another church to join.<br />
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Asked to explain why working-class [[Democrats]] do not support him while campaigning for the [[Pennsylvania]] primary, Obama replied "it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."<ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344532.stm</ref> In response to outrage when his remarks were unexpectedly publicized, Obama replied, I "didn't say it as well as I should have."<ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344532.stm</ref><br />
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To counter the view by many that Obama is an elitist, he began running campaign ads claiming that he "worked his way through college and Harvard Law." This claim was an exaggeration as Obama only held summer jobs while in college and law school<ref>http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_work_claim.html</ref>, and he would have likely benefited from special scholarships not available to most students.<br />
<br />
Obama has described himself as a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago; in fact, he held the position of "Senior Lecturer."<ref>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/03/30/politics/p132303D74.DTL&type=politics</ref><ref>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4238307</ref> <ref>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/03/30/politics/p132303D74.DTL&type=politics</ref><ref>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4238307</ref> For most of his time there he was regarded by the university as a professor.<ref>Obama was on the faculty at the University of Chicago from 1992 to 2004.[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html]</ref><br />
<br />
In his 1995 memoir, ''Dreams of my Father'', Obama admitted doing illegal drugs, including cocaine and marijuana, which he referred to as "blow" and "pot" respectively, in his high school years and into his college years, before claiming to choose a different path in life.<ref>http://www.nbc5.com/politics/3444371/detail.html</ref><ref>http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/26/obamas_senate_foreign_relations_work/</ref><br />
<br />
Obama wore an American flag lapel pin after [[9/11]], but later stopped wearing it without adequate explanation.<ref>http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/when_did_obama_stop_wearing_a.html</ref> Presumably it would have hurt him with anti-military campaign donors.<ref>In 2007, at critical moments in his campaign for the nomination, Obama had difficulties securing the support of anti-war activists. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/04/politics/main2645861.shtml]</ref> Recently, he has begun wearing one again for reasons that are likely political pandering.<br />
<br />
In his memoirs, Obama claimed a ''[[Life]]'' magazine article about a man who had become ill after trying to lighten his skin color by chemical means had a major impact on him. In fact, ''Life'' never published any such article.<ref>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/26/AR2007032601583.html</ref><ref>"Then there's the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don't exist, say the magazine's own historians." [http://newsbusters.org/node/11641]</ref><br />
<br />
Obama falsely claimed that he "had an uncle who was one of the — who was part of the first American troops to go into [[Auschwitz]] and liberate the [[concentration camp]]s. And the story in our family was that when he came home, he just went up into the attic and he didn't leave the house for six months."<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,359061,00.html</ref> In fact, the Soviet army liberated Auschwitz. Embarrassed, the Obama campaign later admitted that Obama was wrong, and claimed he should have said that Obama's great-uncle helped liberate a subcamp of Buchenwald.<ref>http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/27/obamas_uncle_and_the_liberatio.html#more<br />
Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton later claimed that Obama's great-uncle "served in the 89th Infantry Division that Liberated Ohrdruf, a Subcamp of Buchenwald, the First Camp Liberated by Americans, on April 4, 1945." Given that Obama misrepresented what happened, one can also wonder about his story that his relative went into the attic and did not leave his house for six months afterwards.</ref><br />
<br />
Obama said that "[t]here was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, [[Alabama]], because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born." In fact, Obama was born in 1961 and the Selma march took place in 1965.<ref>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/21/barack-obama-gaffe-machine/</ref><br />
<br />
Obama states that he has consistently opposed the [[Iraq War]] since 2002, a claim and position that former President [[Bill Clinton]] criticized as "the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen."<ref>http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1131516320080111</ref><br />
<br />
Obama's campaign "is proud to be actively participating in over 60 local and state wide [[homosexual]] Pride events over the summer."<ref>http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/jcitron/gG5VLs</ref><br />
<br />
==Early life and education==<br />
Barack Hussein Obama was born in [[Honolulu]], [[Hawaii]] to Barack Sr. and Ann Dunham in 1961. In 1967, he moved with his mother and new stepfather to Jakarta, [[Indonesia]]. He attended a [[Catholic]] elementary school for two years, followed by an Indonesian public school for two years. Media scrutiny in the light of Obama's campaign for President revealed that the Indonesia public school was not a madrassa, teaching Islam. However, clearly Obama would have taken days off of school in observance of Islamic holidays. After Indonesia, he returned to the United States with his mother where he attended the Punahou School, the leading private preparatory school in [[Hawaii]], until he graduated in 1979.<br />
<br />
For college, Obama initially attended Occidental College in Los Angeles, [[California]], before transferring to [[Columbia University]] in New York, [[New York]] and graduating without honors with a Bachelor of Arts degree, majoring in political science. Obama refuses to describe his academic performance at Columbia despite commenting about New York during this period and despite disclosures of the academic record for all other major-party presidential candidates since at least 2000.<ref>http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas-years-at-columbia-are-a-mystery/85015/</ref><br />
<br />
After working as a community organizer in New York City and Chicago, Illinois, Obama enrolled at [[Harvard]] Law School. He became a member of the [[liberal]] ''Harvard Law Review'' in 1989, which used racial [[quotas]] for membership. He was then elected by popular vote as its first African American president in 1990, a story that was immediately promoted in the [[New York Times]].<ref>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DC1631F935A35751C0A966958260&scp=3&sq=Obama%201990&st=cse</ref> He graduated ''magna cum laude'' with his J.D. in 1991 and chose not to pursue a federal clerkship, which is the typical post-graduate position for top law students.<br />
<br />
He was "Senior Lecturer in the Law", which is not a professor-level position, at the [[University of Chicago]] Law School as of 2004<ref>http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/04/041103.obama.shtml</ref> and is no longer active at the school.<ref>http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama</ref><br />
<br />
==Legal career==<br />
Following law school, Obama continued his work as a community organizer in Chicago as the director of Illinois Project Vote. In 1993 he was hired as an associate at the Chicago law firm Miner, Barnhill & Galland, P.C., and began lecturing in Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. He remains on the faculty on leave of absence through today. During this time he wrote his first book, ''Dreams from My Father'', detailing his background, his youth, and his education. ''Dreams'' was published in 1995.<br />
<br />
==Senate career==<br />
Obama was elected to the Illinois State Senate for the first time in 1996 and served there for the next eight years. Following a failed campaign for the House of Representatives, Obama ran for the open Senate seat from Illinois in 2004. Obama delivered the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He won a seat in the [[U.S. Senate]] after [[liberals]] obtained the release of confidential and personally embarrassing divorce records of his opponent, Jack Ryan, forcing him to resign from the race and be replaced by the out-of-state candidate [[Alan Keyes]].<br />
<br />
A March 16th, 2005 AP article puts Senator Obama on record to ban oil drilling in the Alaska frontier known as ANWR <ref>http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0316-13.htm</ref><br />
<br />
His 2007 voting record in the U.S. [[Senate]] makes him as its most [[liberal]] member. Among fellow Senate Democrats, he was further left than liberals like [[Ted Kennedy]], [[John Kerry]], [[Dianne Feinstein]], [[Charles Schumer]], [[Russ Feingold]], [[Carl Levin]], [[Joseph Biden]] and [[Harry Reid]].<ref>[http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/sen/lib_cons.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=desc]</ref> He has grown steadily more liberal since arriving at the Senate: the same analysis assessed him as 10th most liberal in 2006<ref>[http://www.nationaljournal.com/members/news/2007/voteratings/sen/lib_cons.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=desc]</ref> and 16th most liberal in 2005.<ref>[http://www.nationaljournal.com/members/news/2007/voteratings/sen/lib_cons.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=desc]</ref><br />
<br />
In late 2006, Obama's second book, ''The Audacity of Hope'', was published. Its title was supplied by the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., a minister who has stated that "racism is how this country was founded and how this country was run .... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God."<ref>http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/14/obama_condemns_pastors_remarks.html</ref> The book contains more of Senator Obama's personal story including the roles of both family and politics. ''Audacity'' spent 30 weeks on the ''New York Times'' Nonfiction Best Sellers list.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/books/bestseller/0527besthardnonfiction.html?_r=1&oref=slogin New York Times Best Sellers Non Fiction]</ref><br />
<br />
Senator Obama is the chairman of an important subcommittee that has oversight of our efforts in Afghanistan. He has not held a single hearing on Afghanistan even though American forces are risking their lives in a theatre of war. Since joining Foreign Relations, Obama has missed three meetings on a "new strategy" in [[Afghanistan]], a country he only visited in 2008.<ref>[http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obama-absent-at-afghanistan-hearings-2008-03-01.html</ref> Barack Obama clinched his party's nomination for President after 16 straight months of campaigning.<br />
<br />
In June 2008, Obama voted with the Democratic party to kill the sunset provision of the [[Bush]] tax cuts. By letting these tax cuts expire, single mothers with two kids will pay an additional $1,800 annually. Married couples with incomes of $50,000 will pay an additional $2,180 annually. Elderly couples will pay an additional $2,000 anually and a family of four will pay 191% more per year in taxes. Barack Obama often claims to be for taxing the rich their fair share. By voting to eliminate the Bush tax cuts, Obama is taxing most middle class and blue collar families.<br />
<br />
Obama and the Democratic-led Congress has voted for the upgraded GI Bill despite the opposition from the President, the Secretary of Defense, the Pentagon, the generals in combat zones and the GOP Presidential nominee. It was crafted to increase veteran benefits. Yet, the strain on our military is great.<ref>[http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/mccain_to_obama_dont_demagogue.php] http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/mccain_to_obama_dont_demagogue.php , McCain To Obama: Don't Demagogue The GI Bill, May 22, 2008</ref> The bill would cost $2.8 to $4 billion per month. It depletes our volunteer military personel by enticing them to leave service rather than be re-deployed. <br />
<br />
=== Bills co-sponsored ===<br />
Obama's principal legislation was S. 2433, which was an attempt to force the U.S. to increase its foreign aid by hundreds of billions of dollars under the guise of reducing global poverty, which was subsequently blocked by [[conservatives]].<ref>http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200802/POL20080225a.html</ref><br />
<br />
Obama did support and co-sponsor a bill championed by [[Tom Coburn]] and known as the Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006, which was signed into law by President [[George W. Bush]] on Sept. 9, 2006. This law created a website that will list the federal government's grants and contracts.<ref> http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060926.html</ref> <br />
<br />
Between Jan 13, 2007 and March 13, 2008, Sen. Obama has sponsored 120 mostly [[liberal]] resolutions and bills in the Senate.<ref>http://thomas.loc.gov/</ref> His supporters cite the following less liberal examples, but this list is not representative:{{fact}}<br />
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*S.117 : A bill to amend titles 10 and 38, United States Code, to improve benefits and services for members of the Armed Forces, veterans of the Global War on Terrorism, and other veterans, to require reports on the effects of the Global War on Terrorism, and for other purposes.<br />
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*S.133 : A bill to promote the national security and stability of the economy of the United States by reducing the dependence of the United States on oil through the use of alternative fuels and new technology, and for other purposes.<br />
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*S.453 : A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.<br />
<br />
*S.713 : A bill to ensure dignity in care for members of the Armed Forces recovering from injuries.<br />
<br />
=== Accomplishments while serving on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee ===<br />
<br />
In February 2008, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee approved Obama's proposal on a new strategy to reduce poverty throughout the world.<br />
<br />
Obama worked with Sen. Lugar writing legislation aimed at improving conventional and nuclear non-proliferation efforts. This legislation was signed by [[George W. Bush|President Bush]] in January 2008.<br />
<br />
In June 2007 the Senate passed his resolution condemning violence by the [[Zimbabwe]] government. It also passed legislation co-sponsored by Obama that financed a Special Court for Sierra Leone to prosecute former [[Liberia | Liberian]] President [[Charles Taylor]]. <ref> http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/26/obamas_senate_foreign_relations_work/ </ref><br />
<br />
Barack Obama continued to collect money for a 2010 Senate re-election campaign as late as June 2008, and has filed reports recently indicating that money is still pouring into this fund. This is especially notable because it is an efficient way of sidetracking donations from his Presidential race. The website<obamasenate2010.gov> is now defunct.<br />
<br />
==Presidential campaign==<br />
[[Image:obama.jpg|thumb|right|Senator Barack Obama]]<br />
Senator Obama began his candidacy for President of the United States on February 10, 2007, in Springfield, Illinois. His announcement speech largely avoided specific campaign issues and focused on his general political message of hope for the future. It also attempted to strongly invoke the memory of Abraham Lincoln and his "House Divided" speech.<ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/10/obama.president/index.html "Obama declares he's running for president"] 11 February 2007, www.CNN.com </ref><br />
<br />
Obama's campaign has been financed largely by [[leftist]] donors opposed to the war and to the [[American]] military in general. Obama has encouraged this by refusing to wear the customary flag on his lapel during appearances (asserting that he would prefer his patriotism to be represented through his actions rather than an arbitrary symbol) and by other less-than-patriotic gestures and symbols, such as declining to put his hand over his heart during a patriotic recitation. In an appearance on May 16 where he addressed President Bush's statements that some politicians would prefer appeasing terrorists through negotiations, Senator Obama once again wore the flag pin as he did following 9-11. <br />
<br />
By early April 2007, his campaign generated over $25 million from over 100,000 contributors. $23.5 million of that money will be available for the Democratic Primary.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/politics/05obama.html Obama Shows His Strength in a Fund-Raising Feat on Par With Clinton], 4 April 2007, Jeff Zeleny and Patrick Healy,'' The New York Times''</ref> After the first Democratic presidential debate in Columbia, South Carolina, Obama's image as an "articulate" spokesman came into question after his failure to state right away that he would retaliate in case of further terrorist strikes against the United States.<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/27/AR2007042702162.html?hpid=moreheadlines Clinton Campaign Tries to Keep Heat on Obama Over Debate Response], Dan Balz, ''Washington Post'' April 28, 2007.</ref><ref>Chicago Sun-Times, <br />
[http://www.suntimes.com/news/sweet/362269,CST-NWS-sweet29.article 'I was a little nervous' at debate'], Lynn Sweet, <br />
April 29, 2007,</ref><br />
<br />
Obama claimed to have visited 57 states while campaigning for president of the United States, which of course has only 50 states. From his remarks, he states that he has "one more to go" and stated he couldn't visit Hawaii and Alaska, indicating he meant to say, "forty-seven states". <br />
<br />
During a fund raising event in Virginia in May 2007 Obama told donors,<br />
{{Cquote|This week there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died. An entire town destroyed.<ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271357,00.html Transcript: 'Special Report with Brit Hume,' May 9, 2007], retrieved from ''FOX News'', 06/13/07.</ref>}}<br />
<br />
In reality, the tornado which touched down in Kansas cost the lives of nine people in the town of Greensburg, and twelve overall in Kansas.<br />
<br />
By August it appeared Obama was running to be left off the ticket completely rather than the much ballyhooed Hillary/Obama ticket the [[mainstream media]] was pushing. After a series of ill-advised foreign policy statements, Obama was openly criticized as a lightweight even by liberals, in much the same vein as [[John Edwards]] and [[Dan Quayle]] had been depicted. First, Obama said he would have face-to-face meetings with two of Florida's most feared enemies, [[Fidel Castro]] and [[Hugo Chavez]]. Florida is a key state to any presidential ambitions. Then Obama claimed that he would be willing to invade the sovereign territory of a U.S. ally without prior consultation. Finally, Obama broke the cardinal rule of declaring he would not use nuclear weapons, removing the element of bluff U.S. Presidents had vitally depended upon throughout the [[Cold War]] era. The incidents all added up to a picture of a candidate ill-prepared and ill-advised, lacking in a basic understanding of the office of the presidency, and failing to surround himself with appointees able to make up for his deficiencies. However, Obama won the Iowa Democratic caucuses, pushing [[Hillary Clinton]] into third place, and went on to become the unofficial Democratic nominee.<br />
<br />
At a campaign event in Elkhart, Indiana, a seven-year-old girl asked Barack Obama why he wants to be President. He replies, <br />
'''"America is …, uh, is no longer, uh … what it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don’t want that future for my children."''' <ref>[http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2008/08/09/mostly-mia-obamas-downer-america-delivered-7-year-old Media Mostly MIA on Obama's 'America No Longer What It Once Was' Downer Delivered to 7 Year-Old] Newsbusters.org, August 9, 2008</ref><br />
<br />
Obama became the presumptive Democratic nominee on June 3rd after receiving a majority of pledged delegates and superdelegates. His only remaining primary opponent, [[Hillary Clinton]], conceded the race on June 7th. On August 23, Joe Biden was announced as Obama's vice-presidential nominee. Obama became the official Democratic nominee on August 27 at the Democratic National Convention, when Hillary Clinton's motion to end the roll call vote of the states and select Obama by acclamation was passed.<br />
<br />
On June 5th, Obama spoke at Briston, Virginia- Healthcare Town Hall forum regarding Political Action Committees and his campaign. "Well, we’re here today because we know that if we’re going to make real progress, this time must be different. Throughout my career, in Illinois and the United States senate, I’ve worked to reduce the power of the special interests by leading the fight for ethics reform. I’ve sent a strong signal in this campaign by refusing the contributions of registered federal lobbyists and PACs. And today, I’m announcing that going forward, the Democratic National Committee will uphold the same standard and won’t take another dime from Washington lobbyists or special interest PACs. They do not fund my campaign. They will not fund our party. And they will not drown out the voices of the American people when I’m President of the United States." <br />
<br />
On June 6th, an [[AP]] article <ref>[http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DEMOCRATS_MONEY?SITE=KING&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT Transcript: 'Democratic Party returns lobbyist, PAC money ,' June 6, 2008]</ref> presents the rules for lobbyist donations to the DNC and for the Presidential nominee. Obama does accept money from lobbyists who do not do business with the federal government and he also accepts money from spouses and family members of lobbyists. And the DNC ban is also not retroactive, which means the DNC will keep lobbyist and PAC contributions it received earlier in the election cycle. Retroactive period being the date Barack Obama started his campaign, February 10, 2007. The DNC possibly the day after the November 2006 Congressional elections until June 5th, 2008. In addition, Barack Obama's ban does not apply to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee nor to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. Unlike [[John McCain]], Barack Obama has not disclosed the lobbyists working in his campaign.<br />
<br />
On August 14th, the campaign announced it had received donations from 2 million individuals.<br />
<br />
The Democratic party feels it necessary to keep all questions about Obama at a safe distance. It is an unprecedented move to keep secrets about a Presidential candidate. The following questions remain sealed from the public. <ref>[http://obamawtf.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-sent-obama-why-has-he-refused-to.html Who sent Obama? Why has he refused to release these basic documents?] ObamaWTF.blogspot.com</ref> <br />
<br />
# Certified Copy of original Birth certificate(see certificate controversy below)<br />
# Columbia College records<br />
# Columbia Thesis paper<br />
# Campaign donor analysis requested by 7 major watchdog groups<br />
# [[Harvard]] College records<br />
# Illinois State Senate records<br />
# [[Illinois]] State Senate schedule<br />
# [[Law]] practice client list and billing records/summary<br />
# Locations and names of all half-siblings and step-mothers<br />
# Medical records (only the one page summary released so far)<br />
# Occidental College records<br />
# Parent's [[Marriage]] Certificate<br />
# Record of baptism<br />
# Selective Service Registration<br />
# Trips schedules for trips outside of the United States before 2007<br />
# Scholarly articles<br />
# Access to his Grandmother<br />
# List of all campaign workers that are lobbyists<br />
<br />
== Positions and Qualifications ==<br />
Obama is [[pro-abortion]]. Obama said "the first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act".<ref>[http://christiannewswire.com/news/560716251.html]</ref> That bill "would invalidate virtually all state and federal limitations on abortion, and would make partial-birth abortion legal again." <ref>[http://www.lifenews.com/nat3961.html], http://www.lifenews.com/nat3961.html, Pro-Life Voters Must Work Overtime to Stop Pro-Abortion Barack Obama, June 4, 2008</ref><br />
The leading abortion providers and PAC supporters have wholeheartedly endorsed Barack Obama. The National Abortion Rights Action League [[NARAL]] has given Barack a 100% rating for his efforts in Congress 2005, 2006 and 2007 <ref>http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/obama.html</ref>. EMILY's List, a political action committee that funds female candidates who support abortion rights backs Barack Obama<ref> [http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/06/emilys_list_bac.html],EMILY's List backs Obama, June 6,2008</ref> The nation's largest abortion business, Planned Parenthood has begun the process necessary to endorse pro-abortion presidential candidate Barack Obama. <ref>[http://www.lifenews.com/nat3971.html], http://www.lifenews.com/nat3971.html, Planned Parenthood Begins Process to Endorse Pro-Abortion Barack Obama, June 10,2008</ref>The board of directors of the pro-abortion group's political operation met on Friday June 6, 2008 and unanimously voted to recommend an endorsement for Obama. Obama has steadfastly advocated support for partial birth abortion as an Illinois legislator. Baracks wife, Michelle Obama, wrote a fundraising letter<ref>[http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2006/10/post_5.php], http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2006/10/post_5.php, February 17,2004</ref> in support of partial birth abortion and against the proposed ban. Barack voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act to give a child who survived an abortion procedure life support healthcare. Obama wanted the life terminated even if he or she survived outside the mother's womb.<ref>[http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007034.cfm], http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007034.cfm, Obama Blocked Born Alive Infant Protection Act</ref> With Obama no longer in the state Senate, the Born Alive legislation passed in 2005.<br />
<br />
In the context of sex, he quipped about his daughters, <ref>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/30/sunday-meditation-obama-and-the-punishment-of-unborn-life/</ref>{{QuoteBox|"if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."}} Obama makes it clear if his daughters had an unplanned pregnancy, he would support terminating the life of his grandchild and it is undeniable that Michelle Obama agrees with that decision.<br />
[[Image:Features ayers1.jpg|175px|thumb|right|[[Weather Underground]] co-founder Bill Ayers<ref>http://foia.fbi.gov/weather/weath1a.pdf</ref> stomps on the American flag in this 2001 pose for Chicago Magazine.]]<br />
<br />
Obama, having been asked about his associations with [[William Ayers]], an unrepentant [[terrorist]],<ref>[http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/No-Regrets/]</ref> he explained that the views of his associates are not necessarily his own. Ayers and his wife, [[Bernardine Dohrn]], hosted a fundraiser for Obama in their home in 1995 at the start of Obama's politcal career. Obama compares his friendship with Ayers whose actions led to the loss of a life to his friendship with pro-life doctor and representative Tom Coburn<ref>[http://www.lifenews.com/nat3894.html]http://www.lifenews.com/nat3894.html, LifeNews.com, April 25,2008</ref><br />
Obama explained that his friendship with Ayers, shouldn't be construed as implying he endorsed the terrorist-like tactics Ayers used to drive home his political point. Barack Obama brought up the pro-life colleague to make the dubious comparison that he's friends with other people who take "extreme" positions or would use terrorist tactics.<br />
"The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions" <br />
<br />
Obama has no military or executive experience and little foreign policy experience.<ref>"Fresh doubts over Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials were expressed on both sides of the Atlantic last night, after it emerged that he had made only one brief official visit to London – and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America. ... Mr. Obama had failed to convene a single policy meeting of the Senate European subcommittee, of which he is chairman."[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3080794.ece]</ref> Yet he is the favorite of the leftist attack site "MoveOn.org" for the [[Democratic]] nomination for [[President of the United States]] in the [[2008 Presidential Election|2008 election]],<ref>MoveOn.org reportedly favored Obama by 70-30% over Clinton. [http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/moveonorg_obama.html]</ref> campaigning to the left of [[Hillary Clinton]].<ref>For example, Obama promised not to use nuclear weapons against terrorists, a promise Hillary Clinton refused to make. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/02/AR2007080202288.html]</ref> <br />
<br />
He has no clear personal achievement that cannot be explained as the likely result of [[affirmative action]]. Some examples border on the absurd: Obama has no background in [[physics]], yet it is claimed that "Obama analyzed and integrated [[Albert Einstein|Einstein]]'s [[theory of relativity]], the [[Heisenberg uncertainty principle]], as well as the concept of curved space as an alternative to [[gravity]], for a Law Review article that Tribe, for whom Obama worked as a research assistant, wrote titled, 'The Curvature of Constitutional Space'." <ref>http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/barack.obama.harvard.2.334825.html</ref> Obama's "research" for Constitutional Law Professor Tribe on this article also raises issues about preferences, as Obama had not yet even completed any law school courses<ref>Obama did not start his second year of law school until September 1989, the earliest he could have taken constitutional law, yet this article must have been written, submitted and accepted prior to that time to be published in the November 1989 issue of the Law Review.</ref> on the [[Constitution]].<ref>The liberal Professor Tribe saw the best law students for several decades, yet insisted that Obama was the "best student I ever had" and the "most exciting research assistant." [http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071114/NEWS01/711140429/1217/NEWS98]</ref><br />
<br />
Throughout his career, Obama repeatedly ducked controversial stands in an apparent attempt to make it easier to be elected to higher office. In example, as a state senator in [[Illinois]], he voted "present" rather than "aye" or "nay" nearly an astounding 130 times.<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html</ref> During that same period, he was planning to run for the [[House of Representatives]], which was unsuccessful, and then for [[U.S. Senate]], which was successful after his opponent Jack Ryan, a millionaire school teacher, was smeared with a court-ordered disclosure of confidential divorce records that both he and his ex-wife wanted to remain sealed. A newspaper that favored Obama took the unusual step of suing to force the confidential divorce information to become public, and a California judge opened the records at a pivotal time in the campaign.<ref>http://www.nbc5.com/politics/2898641/detail.html</ref><ref>http://www.nbc5.com/news/3289561/detail.html</ref><ref>http://www.nbc5.com/politics/3444371/detail.html</ref><br />
<br />
Barack Obama is often praised for his speeches, except when he is not able to read them from a [[teleprompter]]. "Shorn of his Teleprompter, we saw a different Obama. His delivery was halting and unsure. ... The prepared text for his remarks, as released on his website, sounded a lot like a typical Obama speech. ... [But with] no Teleprompter signaling the prepared text, Obama failed to deliver the speech in his characteristically flawless fashion."<ref name="teleprompter" /> The [[New York Times]] noted that "Mr. Obama excels at inspirational speeches read from a teleprompter before television cameras, critics have noted, but many of his other speeches on the campaign trail have failed to electrify."<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html?_r=2&ex=1358485200&en=bb179297e5f61acb&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&oref=slogin&oref=slogin</ref> When Obama ridiculed [[Hillary Clinton]] for being like [[Annie Oakley]], it is apparent that he was not writing his own speeches.<ref>"Some Obama adviser probably earned his or her dollars for that cut," the USA Today wrote. [http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/raasch/2008-04-17-2008-04-17-raasch_N.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
Obama often makes reference to his "two decades of experience" in public service work. During most of that time he claims experience, he was either going to school, working for a law firm, writing a book and community organizing.<br />
<br />
== Political views ==<br />
Obama's political views have been subjected to controversy even before he put himself forward as a presidential candidate. Former House majority leader [[Tom DeLay]] has described Obama's record in the Illinois Senate as that of a [[Communism|“Marxist leftist".]]<ref>[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_121306/content/stop_the_tape.guest.html|Sexy Rock Star Obama Whines About His Ears], RushLimbaugh.com, December 13 2006</ref> In May 2007, Obama (and Sen. Hillary Clinton) voted against funding the Iraq War for the first time.<ref>[http://uspolitics.about.com/od/legislatio1/a/HR2206.htm HR 2206 - Emergency Appropriations], Kathy Gill, Your Guide to U.S. Politics: Current Events. May 26 2007.</ref><ref>[http://more.gov.mtopgroup.com/2007/05/votes-hr-2206-iraq-supplemental.html Votes - H.R. 2206: Iraq Supplemental], May 28, 2007. Retrieved from Deeper Inside the Mountain, June 4, 2007.</ref> <br />
<br />
Obama's views on [[gun control]] is focused on an opinion article in the [[Wall Street Journal]]:<ref>David Kopel, "The Democrats and Gun Control," Wall St.J., Page A19, April 17, 2008 [http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB120839466717921537-lMyQjAxMDI4MDE4NzMxOTc0Wj.html]</ref><br />
<br />
:As a state senate candidate in 1996, Mr. Obama endorsed a complete ban on all handguns in a questionnaire. The Obama campaign has claimed he "never saw or approved the questionnaire," and that an aide filled it out incorrectly. But a few weeks ago, Politico.com found an amended version of the questionnaire. It included material added in Mr. Obama's handwriting.<br />
<br />
After [[D.C. v. Heller]], Obama claimed to support Second Amendment rights.<br />
<br />
Obama has said, "Doing the Lord's work is a thread that runs through our politics since the very beginning," and "it puts the lie to the notion that [[separation of church and state]] in America means somehow that faith should have no role in public life."<ref>[http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2007/06/17/news/iowa/8db7c1a17d2b51f9862572fd000fc9f4.txt Obama says religion has place in politics], By Todd Dorman, ''Sioux City Journal'', June 18, 2007.</ref><br />
<br />
He believes children should be taught sex education in kindergarten, although in what he refers to as "an age-appropriate manner".<ref>"Barack Obama reaffirmed to [[Planned Parenthood]] this week that he believes elements of sex education should begin in kindergarten." [http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3395856 (ABC News)] July 20, 2007 </ref><br />
<br />
Obama spoke at the May 1, 2006, illegal immigration march in Chicago.<ref>http://nomoreblather.com/barack-obama-and-the-immigration-marches Immigration marches</ref><br />
<br />
::''We are hungry for change!'' S.C. January 26, 2008.<br />
<br />
Barack Obama in his short stint as Senator of Illinois, has made clear his opposition to the [[U.S. Military]] in policy and in rhetoric. Obama has spent much energy to argue that the Iraq War should have never been waged and that we should not be there at all, in any way. In 2002, as an unknown Chicago representative to the state of Illinois, he declared his opposition to "dumb wars". At the time, America was united in the stance against terrorism and the prospects of a rogue enemy with WMD worried the United States. Obama has said that he does not know whether he would have voted for or against the Iraq War. Since elected to Congress, he voted against the Emergency War Supplemental. Obama did not oppose his party debating the bill long past the timeframe requested. This action directly affects troop deployment in combat zones. Obama has repeatedly called for the return of troops in Iraq. Barack Obama has a no confidence vote for the 'Surge' before the measure was put forth by General Petraeus to Congress. Obama would not denounce MoveOn.org's slander NY Times advertising against the General.<br />
<br />
Senator Obama often refers to the office that he seeks, without the proper respect of those that came before him. When talking of the President, he frequently refuses to call him President George Bush or even Mr. George Bush. Obama disrespectfully calls him 'George Bush'. <br />
* "I am happy to have a debate with John McCain and George Bush about foreign policy," Obama said <ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/16/obama.bush.mccain/], CNN Obama blasts Bush McCain, May 16, 2008</ref><br />
* "For all his talk about independence, the centerpiece of John McCain's economic plan amounts to a full-throated endorsement of George Bush's policies," <ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/10/obama_takes_the_offensive_vs_mccain/] Boston Globe Obama takes offensive vs. McCain, June 10, 2008</ref> <br />
* "George Bush knows that I have never supported engagement with terrorists." <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7403386.stm], BBC Obama attacks Bush over Iran , May 15, 2008</ref><br />
* Obama called the U.S. economy a disaster thanks to "John McCain's president, George W. Bush" <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_mccain/2008/08/18/122924.html No More Hugs: Obama Tears Into McCain] AP, August 18, 2008</ref> Side note, George W. Bush is also Barack Obama's President.<br />
<br />
== Foreign policy experience ==<br />
<br />
In [[Russia]] and the former Soviet republics, he met with representatives of the International Republican Institute and National Democratic Institute to discuss democracy in the former Soviet republics. He also met with Russian military officials and visited several nuclear and biological weapons destruction sites in Russia, [[Ukraine]], and [[Azerbaijan]] with Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar (R-IN). On the same tour, he visited London, UK, and met with [[Tony Blair]], sitting UK Prime Minister.<ref>http://obama.senate.gov/press/050823-obama_to_visit/</ref><br />
<br />
Obama visited South Africa, Kenya, Ethiopia, Djibouti, and Chad; he discussed his tour of Robben Island prison, met with U.S. troops, and visited refugee camps of the people fleeing Darfur. He also addressed Africa's growing [[AIDS]] epidemic. <ref>http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060906-090606_africa_t/</ref> <br />
<br />
During a ten-day-long tour of the Middle East, he talked with government leaders in Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Jordan, and Israel. <ref> http://obama.senate.gov/news/060113-obama_wraps_up/</ref><br />
<br />
==Religious affiliations==<br />
<br />
Obama and his wife (reared a Baptist) have been active members since 1988 at the Trinity [[United Church of Christ]]<ref>http://www.tucc.org/about.htm</ref> in Chicago. The church embraces black liberation theology and its emphasis on empowering oppressed groups against establishment forces. This denomination was the first in America to ordain gays, women and blacks as ministers.<ref>[http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/31079.html], http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/31079.html, Obama's church pushes controversial doctrines, March 20, 2008</ref> According to his sister, Obama was baptized at this church the same year.<ref>[http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/30/america/30obama.php?page=2 http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/30/america/30obama.php?page=2]</ref> Obama describes his conversion in ''The Audacity of Hope''. The title of this book is taken from one of Pastor Wright's sermons. <br />
In April 2008, Obama disavowed Pastor Wright's views. In May 2008, Obama left his church. His response blames the media and not the rhetoric on display <ref>[http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/31/obama-resigns-church-membership-in-chicago/], Obama Drops Church Membership in Chicago, may 31, 2008</ref>{{QuoteBox|“It’s not fair to the other members of the church who seek to worship in peace..."}} Wright had been making inflammatory comments and posting his sermons online for sale. These include the statements "G-d damn America" and describing the September 11th attacks, he said "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."<ref>[ http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4443788 Obama's Pastor: G-d Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11]</ref> In addition, Rev. Wright blamed America saying "We supported Zionism shamelessly while ignoring the Palestinians and branding anybody who spoke out against it as being anti-Semitic." <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Barack Obama Jeremiah Wright.jpg|thumb|Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright.]]<br />
<br />
[[Daniel Pipes]] claims that Obama was raised a [[Muslim]] because he attended classes on the Koran while attending a Muslim school.<ref>[http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286 Was Barack Obama a Muslim</ref> Obama did attend a school administrated by Muslims but [[CNN]] reports that it was a non-religious public school attended by students of many faiths, not a [[madrassa]].<ref>http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/</ref><br />
<br />
{{QuoteBox|In Indonesia, I'd spent 2 years at a Muslim school, 2 years at a Catholic school. In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I'd pretend to close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended. Just a parched old nun and 30 brown children, muttering words. Sometimes the nun would catch me, and her stern look would force my lids back shut. But that didn't change how I felt inside."}}<ref>Dreams from My Father, by Barack Obama, p.142 Aug 1, 1996 </ref><br />
<br />
Obama has described his upbringing as occurring in a non-religious environment. <br />
<br />
{{QuoteBox|In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist that she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well. Moreover, as a child I rarely came in contact with those who might offer a substantially different view of faith. My father was almost entirely absent from my childhood, having been divorced from my mother when I was 2 years old; in any event, although my father had been raised a Muslim, by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist, thinking religion to be so much superstition.<br />
<br />
And yet for all her professed secularism, my mother was in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I've ever known. She had an unswerving instinct for kindness, charity, and love, and spent much of her life acting on that instinct, sometimes to her detriment. Without the help of religious texts or outside authorities, she worked mightily to instill in me the values that many Americans learn in Sunday school: honesty, empathy, discipline, delayed gratification, and hard work. She raged at poverty and injustice.}}<ref>[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546579-4,00.html My Spiritual Journey] Time Magazine, October 2006</ref><br />
<br />
== Books ==<br />
<br />
* ''Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.''<br />
* ''The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream.''<br />
* ''Barack Obama in His Own Words.'' (B. Obama and Lisa Rogak)<br />
<br />
==Published criticism==<br />
On April 11, 2007, staff writers of ''The Boston Globe'' reported the criticisms of several black commentators regarding Obama's apparent hesitation to join the race to condemn acclaimed radio personality [[Don Imus]],<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/11/obamas_silence_on_imus_alarms_some_blacks/ Obama's silence on Imus alarms some blacks], Rick Klein and Joseph Williams, ''The Boston Globe'', April 11, 2007.</ref> who made a racially insensitive remark<ref>[http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN1237895620070412|title=Furor over Imus puts heat on other broadcasters], Daniel Trotta, Reuters, 2007-04-12.</ref> on the air during the April 4 broadcast. Obama did not comment on Imus's remarks until well after prominent civil rights leaders [[Al Sharpton]] and [[Jesse Jackson]] had called Imus to account and after Imus was suspended by MSNBC and CBS Radio. Obama later weighed in on April 10 by saying, "The comments of Don Imus were divisive, hurtful, and offensive to Americans of all backgrounds." <br /> <br />
<br />
The ''Globe'' reported that Obama's perceived delay in addressing Don Imus's remarks was described by Melissa Harris Lacewell, a professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University, as "miss[ing] an opportunity to prove himself to blacks and white liberals who would have wanted Obama take the lead in denouncing Imus."<ref>[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/11/obamas_silence_on_imus_alarms_some_blacks/ Obama's silence on Imus alarms some blacks], Rick Klein and Joseph Williams, ''The Boston Globe'', April 11, 2007.</ref><ref>[http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2007/04/obama_race_and_the_election.html Obama, Race, and The Election,] ''Real Clear Politics.com''</ref><br />
<br />
In June 2007 the ''Chicago Sun-Times'' reported Obama had actually received nearly three times more campaign cash from indicted slum landlord Tony Rezko<ref>[http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/353829,CST-NWS-rez23.article Barack Obama and his slumlord patron], Tim Novak, Chicago Sun-Times, April 23, 2007.</ref> and his associates than Obama has publicly acknowledged.<ref>[http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/432197,CST-NWS-obama18.article Rezko cash triple what Obama says], Chris Fusco and Tim Novak, ''Chicago Sun-Times'', June 18, 2007.</ref><br />
<br />
Obama wore an American flag lapel pin after [[9/11]], but later stopped wearing it without adequate explanation.<ref>http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/when_did_obama_stop_wearing_a.html</ref> Presumably it would have hurt him with anti-military campaign donors.<ref>In 2007, at critical moments in his campaign for the nomination, Obama had difficulties securing the support of anti-war activists. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/04/politics/main2645861.shtml]</ref><br />
<br />
In his memoirs, Obama claimed a ''[[Life]]'' magazine article about a man who had become ill after trying to lighten his skin color by chemical means had a major impact on him. In fact, ''Life'' never published any such article.<ref>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/26/AR2007032601583.html</ref><ref>"Then there's the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don't exist, say the magazine's own historians." [http://newsbusters.org/node/11641]</ref><br />
<br />
Obama falsely claimed that he "had an uncle who was one of the — who was part of the first American troops to go into [[Auschwitz]] and liberate the [[concentration camp]]s. And the story in our family was that when he came home, he just went up into the attic and he didn't leave the house for six months."<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,359061,00.html</ref> In fact, the Soviet army liberated Auschwitz. Embarrassed, the Obama campaign later admitted that Obama was wrong, and claimed he should have said that Obama's great-uncle helped liberate a subcamp of Buchenwald.<ref>http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/27/obamas_uncle_and_the_liberatio.html#more<br />
Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton later claimed that Obama's great-uncle "served in the 89th Infantry Division that Liberated Ohrdruf, a Subcamp of Buchenwald, the First Camp Liberated by Americans, on April 4, 1945." Given that Obama misrepresented what happened, one can also wonder about his story that his relative went into the attic and did not leave his house for six months afterwards.</ref><br />
<br />
Obama said that "[t]here was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, [[Alabama]], because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born." In fact, Obama was born in 1961, and the Selma march took place in 1965.<ref>http://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/21/barack-obama-gaffe-machine/</ref><br />
<br />
Obama states that he has consistently opposed the [[Iraq War]] since 2002, a claim and position that former President [[Bill Clinton]] criticized as "the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen."<ref>http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1131516320080111</ref><br />
<br />
Executive vice president Wayne LaPierre of the [[NRA]] accuses Barack Obama of "mouthing pro-Second amendment words and pandering to gun owners" on the campaign trail.<ref>[http://www.gopusa.com/news/2008/may/0514_nra_mccain.shtml], http://www.gopusa.com/news/2008/may/0514_nra_mccain.shtml, NRA chief stresses common ground with McCain, Associated Press, May 14, 2008</ref><br />
<br />
[[McCain]] Aide Says Obama Has Sept. 10 Mind-Set "an extremely dangerous and extremely naive approach toward terrorism" <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/politics/mccain_obama/2008/06/17/105265.html], AP McCain Aide Says Obama Has Sept. 10 Mind-Set, June 17, 2008</ref><br />
<br />
===Birth Certificate Controversy===<br />
There has been some controversy over the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate and his Constitutional eligibility to hold the office of President.<ref>[http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTgxZmIwNTg0OWVhMWJkODNmZjI4ZjY4Mjg2OWRmNzI= http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTgxZmIwNTg0OWVhMWJkODNmZjI4ZjY4Mjg2OWRmNzI=]</ref> After initially refusing to produce a birth certificate in response to such rumors, the Obama campaign eventually endorsed a document posted on the Daily Kos as <br />
authentic.<ref>[http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/12/11012/6168/320/534616 Obama's Birth Certificate]</ref> The response is split regarding the birth certificate. Some commentators, such as those at the National Review, are satisfied with the document.<ref>[http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVjN2I1MjlhM2ZjZjRjYzBkODAxZjZkZGQyYWNkMDk= http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVjN2I1MjlhM2ZjZjRjYzBkODAxZjZkZGQyYWNkMDk=]</ref> However, an analyst at the Israel Insider website, has concluded based on a photographic analysis of the document that the birth certificate has been altered and is likely not Obama's true birth certificate.<ref>[http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12939.htm]</ref><br />
<br />
On August 21st, 2008, Factcheck.org published an article regarding the controversy.<ref>[http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html Born in the U.S.A.]</ref> The site stated, "FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship." In addition, the site posted high-resolution photographs of the birth certificate, which clearly showed the raised seal, stamp of Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka, and certificate number. The birth date corresponds to a birth announcement published in the ''Honolulu Advertiser '' on Sunday, August 13, 1961. <ref>http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/obama-was-born-in-hawaii-wrong-can-of-worms/</ref><br />
<br />
A Philadelphia attorney, Phillip Berg, has filed a lawsuit against the DNC and Barack Obama. Berg maintains that Sen. Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen or that, if he ever was, he lost his citizenship when he was adopted in Indonesia. Berg also cites what he calls "dual loyalties" due to his citizenship and ties with Kenya and Indonesia. Even if Sen. Obama can prove his U.S. citizenship, Berg stated, citing the senator's use of a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii verified as a forgery by three independent document forensic experts, the issue of "multi-citizenship with responsibilities owed to and allegiance to other countries" remains on the table. <ref>[http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/08/22/msm-ignores-democrat-lawsuit-against-obama MSM Ignores Democrat Lawsuit Against Obama] Newsbusters.org, August 22, 2008</ref><br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Previous Breaking News/Barack Obama|Articles about '''Barack Obama''' from previous "Breaking News"]]<br />
*[[Essay: The Special Interests Candidate]]<br />
<br />
==Further reading==<br />
*[[Peter Hitchens|Hitchens, Peter]] [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=511901&in_page_id=1811 ''The Black Kennedy: But does anyone know the real Barack Obama?''] [[Daily Mail]]. Accessed 4 February 2008.<br />
<br />
==Sources==<br />
<br />
*[http://obama.senate.gov/about/ Official Senate Website]<br />
*[http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/pfd2005/N00009638_2005.pdf Barack Obama Personal Financial Disclosures Summary: 2005], retrieved from opensecrets.org 17 June 2007.<br />
*[http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=O000167 Biographical Directory of the United States Congress]<br />
*[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama/cv.html University of Chicago Law School] Faculty Listing<br />
*[http://www.biography.com/search/article.do?id=12782369 Barack Obama Biography] from Biography.com<br />
*[http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per New York Times Topics, Barack Obama]<br />
*[http://youtube.com/watch?v=zUdjhKbImwE Documentary on Barack Hussein Obama]<br />
*[http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490 Voting Record of Barack Hussein Obama]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
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{{DEFAULTSORT:Obama, Barrack}}<br />
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{{2008 presidential candidates}}<br />
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[[Category:United States Senators]]<br />
[[Category:Democratic Party]]<br />
[[Category:Liberals]]<br />
[[Category:Muslims]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512422Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T23:25:02Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
<br />
Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
<br />
::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
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::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
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:suicide is the only way out<br />
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Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp ==<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
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http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
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I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
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-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
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Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
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The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]] <br />
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== Request intervention ==<br />
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Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:::: Jose is usually a girl's name. My bad. You can take yourself off the cross now. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:58, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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I have yet to meet a single women in my life that went by "Jose". Jose is typically a man's name, especially with Latinos. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512420Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T23:23:41Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
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Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
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::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
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::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
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:suicide is the only way out<br />
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Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
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It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
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I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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== We need more ==<br />
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There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp ==<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
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http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
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I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
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-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
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Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
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The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]] <br />
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== Request intervention ==<br />
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Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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I have yet to meet a single women in my life that went by "Jose". Jose is typically a man's name, especially with Latinos. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512418Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T23:23:07Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
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Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
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::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
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::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
<br />
:suicide is the only way out<br />
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Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
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I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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== We need more ==<br />
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There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
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http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
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I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
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-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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<br />
::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
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Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
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The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]] <br />
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== Request intervention ==<br />
<br />
Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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I have yet to meet a single women in my life that went by "Jose". Jose is typically a man's name, especially with Latinos. --[[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512415Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T23:19:44Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
<br />
Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
<br />
::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
<br />
::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
<br />
::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
<br />
:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
<br />
:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
<br />
We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Suicide==<br />
<br />
:suicide is the only way out<br />
<br />
Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
<br />
== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
<br />
:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
<br />
:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
<br />
http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
<br />
I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
<br />
::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
<br />
Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
<br />
The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Guns N Roses are Heavy Metal and your claim that a riot is as likely to occur at any concert of any musical genre is ridiculous. I've never heard of a full-scale riot breaking out at an Elton John concert. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]] <br />
<br />
== Request intervention ==<br />
<br />
Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:::: Jose is usually a girl's name. My bad. You can take yourself off the cross now. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:58, 7 September 2008 (EDT)</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512396Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T23:01:51Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
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Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
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::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
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::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
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:suicide is the only way out<br />
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Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
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It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
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I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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== We need more ==<br />
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There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
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http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
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I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
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-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
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Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
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The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Request intervention ==<br />
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Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:::: Jose is usually a girl's name. My bad. You can take yourself off the cross now. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:58, 7 September 2008 (EDT)</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512327Heavy metal music2008-09-07T21:46:59Z<p>Jose83: Undo revision 512323 by J00ni (Talk)</p>
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<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Hatred of Jesus Christ]</ref> musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
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The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
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By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
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Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
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==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
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Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
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==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
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==Criticism==<br />
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Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
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A musicologist wrote:<br />
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:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
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===Satanism===<br />
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Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
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The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
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Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
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===Anti-Christianity===<br />
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Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
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===Suicide and Violence===<br />
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Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref> Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <ref> [http://www.memoryarchive.org/en/Guns_'n_Roses_Riot,_1991 Guns N Roses Riot] </ref> <ref> [http://www.deftone.com/archives/2002/11/guns_n_roses_vancouver_riot Another Guns N Roses riot] </ref> <ref> [http://www.mygnr.com/bootleg/1992/Montreal/montreal.html ANOTHER Guns N Roses riot] </ref><br />
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==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
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==References==<br />
<references/><br />
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==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
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[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Affirmative_Action&diff=512318Affirmative Action2008-09-07T21:39:50Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>'''Affirmative action''' refers to policies proposed to remedy the historical effects of race or sex discrimination. This is commonly done by giving an individual a preference or advantage based their [[race]], ethnic background, political affiliation, or [[gender]]; see [[reverse discrimination]]. [[Quotas]] are an extreme form of affirmative action.<br />
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The original concept of affirmative action, when introduced by the [[President Johnson|Johnson]] administration, was that it is desirable to not merely act on non-discrimination passively (i.e., saying "this job is open to any applicant", but then making no efforts to find minority applicants), but should also be done ''affirmatively'', by taking definite actions to find applicants from minorities.<br />
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This would be, in its way, admirable. However, in current use, affirmative action goes beyond this, often mandating the use of quotas for setting aside jobs or a portion of college entrance positions for each minority (including also some "minorities" which are actually majorities). <br />
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* The worst feature of such programs is that they are presented to the public as if they were "equal opportunity" programs when they are patently aimed at "equal outcomes" regardless of the merits and abilities of job applicants. [http://www.endeavourforum.org.au/frauds1.htm]<br />
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In effect, this means selecting applicants by the color of their skin, precisely what the original concept of non-discrimination forbids. This is sometimes called "reverse discrimination," although this term is rather contradictory - discrimination remains discrimination.<br />
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''[[Regents v. Bakke]]'' effectively outlawed [[quotas]] but allowed affirmative action as long as there are considerations other than race. This is sometimes called reverse discrimination.<br />
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[[Dinesh D'Souza]] wrote:<br />
{{cquote|Many whites have become increasingly scornful of black demands, and vehemently reject racial preferences. Most blacks, by contrast, support affirmative action as indispensable to fighting the enduring effects of white racism.<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/endofrac.htm The End of Racism: The White Man's Burden by Dinesh D'Souza]</ref>}}<br />
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[[John H. McWhorter]] wrote:<br />
{{cquote|For most black Americans, the rapid increase of the black middle class, of [[interracial relationship]]s and [[interracial marriage|marriages]], and of blacks in prestigious positions has no bearing on the real state of [[black America]]. Further, they believe, whites’ inability to grasp the unmistakable reality of [[oppression]] is itself proof of [[racism]], while blacks who question that reality are self-deluded. [http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_1_whats_holding_blacks.html]}}<br />
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On August 28, 2007 the United States Commission on Civil Rights released a report that determined that affirmative action can be harmful to minority law school students due to the fact that many students admitted through affirmative action programs are unprepared and are thus being set up for failure.<ref>[http://www.usccr.gov/press/2007/AALS82807.pdf U.S. Civil Rights Commission Warns That Affirmative Action Might Harm Minority Law Students]</ref><br />
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Most recently, the Justice Department was found to be engaging in affirmative-action-style hiring practices for [[conservatives]]. Instead of taking the best candidates for various jobs and internships, Republican appointees in the Department had been found to have commandeered the hiring process and were denying jobs to most qualified people who were or were thought to be liberal and giving jobs to conservatives who were less qualified.<br />
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==See Also==<br />
* [[Affirmative Action President]]<br />
* [[Barack Obama]]<br />
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==References==<br />
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[[Category:Politics]]<br />
[[Category:Affirmative Action]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512266Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:57:54Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
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Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
<br />
::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
<br />
::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
<br />
:suicide is the only way out<br />
<br />
Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
<br />
http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
<br />
I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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<br />
::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
<br />
Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
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The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Request intervention ==<br />
<br />
Jose is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a strong anti-metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::And now she is beginning to vandalize the talk page. See talk page edit history. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:50, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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::: Quit it with the childish name calling. You have been refering to me as a female when I am actual a male in order to annoy me. Stop now. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512259Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:47:46Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
<br />
Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
<br />
::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
<br />
::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
<br />
:suicide is the only way out<br />
<br />
Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
<br />
== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
<br />
:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
<br />
:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
<br />
http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
<br />
I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
<br />
::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
<br />
Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
<br />
The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:Excellent. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:25, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
... GnR are not considered heavy metal, first and foremost. Even if they were, riots are not EXPECTED to occur at heavy metal shows any more than with other shows of other musical genres. Also, Heavy Metal is /considered/ anti-christian by some, HENCE THE CRITICISM SECTION. Simply calling it anti-christian because you /perceive/ it to be anti-christian is not encyclopedic.[[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:40, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Request intervention ==<br />
<br />
Jirby is beginning to annoy me, and I refuse to participate in an edit war with someone who obviously has such a pro metal bent that the article is virtually untouchable by anyone with any sense. [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]5:41, 7 September 2008 (EDT)</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512253Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:39:26Z<p>Jose83: Facts go under Facts</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Hatred of Jesus Christ]</ref> musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref> Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <ref> [http://www.memoryarchive.org/en/Guns_'n_Roses_Riot,_1991 Guns N Roses Riot] </ref> <ref> [http://www.deftone.com/archives/2002/11/guns_n_roses_vancouver_riot Another Guns N Roses riot] </ref> <ref> [http://www.mygnr.com/bootleg/1992/Montreal/montreal.html ANOTHER Guns N Roses riot] </ref><br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512249Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:36:39Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Hatred of Jesus Christ]</ref> musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref> Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <ref> [http://www.memoryarchive.org/en/Guns_'n_Roses_Riot,_1991 Guns N Roses Riot] </ref> <ref> [http://www.deftone.com/archives/2002/11/guns_n_roses_vancouver_riot Another Guns N Roses riot] </ref><br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512248Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:35:48Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Hatred of Jesus Christ]</ref> musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref> Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <ref> [http://www.memoryarchive.org/en/Guns_'n_Roses_Riot,_1991 Guns N Roses Riot] </ref><br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512247Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:32:57Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Hatred of Jesus Christ]</ref> musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref><br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512245Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:31:37Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]</ref> musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref><br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
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[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512238Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:24:21Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
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Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
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::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
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::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
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:suicide is the only way out<br />
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Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
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It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
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I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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== We need more ==<br />
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There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
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http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
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I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
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-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::::: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! I love it. If I argue then I'm in denial. If I don't argue, this article is allowed to exist in it's current deceitful form. Alright now seriously. Either source (which you can't) your assertions or don't expect them to remain in the article for more than five minutes before someone who knows better (me and the other actual CONTRIBUTORS to the article) remove them. <br />
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Also, whilst I don't oft go into the personal details of my life, yes I love heavy metal. Big deal. You hate it. Big deal. If you can come up with a sourced, logical position, then I don't care what your personal tastes are, however, right now you're simply directing all of your hate onto a MORALLY NEUTRAL abstraction. As I said. I won't tolerate it. Now source, or delete. <br />
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The ball is in your court. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:16, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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Sources will be posted within minutes -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512216Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:12:26Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
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Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
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::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
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::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
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:suicide is the only way out<br />
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Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
<br />
== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
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== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
<br />
http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
<br />
I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=512214Talk:Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:11:35Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
<br />
Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
<br />
Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
<br />
::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
<br />
::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
<br />
::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
<br />
:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
<br />
:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
<br />
We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Suicide==<br />
<br />
:suicide is the only way out<br />
<br />
Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
<br />
== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
<br />
:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
<br />
:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
<br />
http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
<br />
I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
:This is meant to be an encyclopedia. Having substantive content, as per wikipedia, is not necessarily a bad thing. By all means add info you feel would be censored by wikipedia - but to censor material which has been added without justifiable reasons (such as when material is unable to be backed up by citations) is against Conservapedia's commandments --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 10:04, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Agreed. The recent additions, while not broadly incorrect or out of place, reek of bias and ignorance. Not to play the authority card, but why not let people who /know/ something about heavy metal edit the article instead? I swear facts actually do help articles. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:15, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I figured that there was a difference between this article and Jose's talk page at first glance, but really it's just the same unsourced material from her talk page shoe-horned into this page without any sources whatsoever that actually back up her assertions. Indeed, as a long time Pantera and Megadeth fan, I can say your interpretations of their song lyrics or literal to the point of deception. If Phil and Owns thought suicide was so spectacular in the vein /you/ seem to believe then they would have sliced their own wrists by now. But obviously that is not the case. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::I refuse to tolerate your ignorant behavior. If "liberal denial" is the best you can come up with then kindly stop editing this page and let us who know a thing or two about this subject handle it. It's quite obvious that you cannot. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:07, 7 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::: Your deception is weak, Jirby. It's obvious to me that you are attempting to hide the harmful effects of Heavy Metal music because you are in denial of them, being a devout follower of the genre. We don't believe in censorship here at Conservapedia and if you want to exhibit more [[Liberal denial]] in the form of Rule #60, maybe you will feel more at home [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music|here]]. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512203Heavy metal music2008-09-07T19:04:32Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is an Anti-Christian musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref><br />
Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=512196Heavy metal music2008-09-07T18:59:54Z<p>Jose83: Reverting edits by Jirby. Please quit employing Liberal Denial Rule # 60.</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy metal''' is a musical genre that was developed mainly in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, heavy metal is primarily noted for an emphasis on distortion, palm muting, aggressive lyrical content, bass-heavy sounds, as well as the influence of blues scales and classical structures. Heavy Metal has also spawned numerous sub genres which omit or improve upon standard technique, or invent new one altogether, giving heavy metal as a genre an impressive variety of styles and sounds. Heavy metal's origins are both rooted in the cultural upheavals that occurred during the 1960s, such as the conflict in Vietnam and the reevaluation and mass rejection of previous social schema, and the enormous influence of bands such as [[The Jimi Hendrix Experience]], [[Led Zeppelin]], and [[Black Sabbath]] that are regarded as proto-metal as well as hard rock. Other musical influences include psychedelic rock, blues rock, and the still developing progressive rock genre. Though heavy metal initially borrowed heavily from the blues in terms of playing style, this was later largely discarded by future metal acts such as [[Judas Priest]]. <br />
<br />
The first style of rock which grew from this was distorted [[blues]] sound created by [[San Francisco]] based [[psychedelia]] band, '''Blue Cheer''', whose influence on electric blues bands could be seen from [[Cream (rock band)|Cream]] to [[Jimi Hendrix]] to '''ZZ Top'''. The second style was [[progressive rock]], which in 1968 was led by [[England|English]] band '''King Crimson''', combining jazz, classical, experimental, psychedelic and folk music. The precursor to this sound was [[The Beatles]], arguably the first band to leave the standard rock format, creating longer song structures, many of which were narrative or [[opera|neo-operatic]]. This was the main inspiration for later bands such as '''Camel''', [[Genesis (band)|Genesis]] and [[Yes (band)|Yes]]. <br />
<br />
By 1969, the influence of these seminal artists had saturated those parts of the public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing art form, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock by, for example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Deep Purple]] and the so-called "proto-metal" of '''Black Sabbath'''. This year is now seen as the watershed moment in the development of what soon became heavy metal.<br />
<br />
Black Sabbath originally began as an electric blues outfit named "Earth", but after discovering there was already a band using that name, changed to Black Sabbath after the 1964 [[Boris Karloff]] movie of the same name. Developing a new sound that was born both out of a change in attitude and the loss of lead Guitarist Tony Iommi's finger tips, Black Sabbath are largely credited with developing the more heavily distorted and crunchy elements that later became staples of the heavy metal style.<br />
<br />
==1970s==<br />
In 1973 the leading exponents of heavy metal were undoubtedly Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath, each having a technical prowess and a compositional inventiveness unseen before in mainstream popular music. This era also marked the beginnings of Satanic imagery and of the spectacular, energetic live shows which became a hallmark of later heavy metal spin offs. Led Zeppelin's [[guitar|guitarist]] Jimmy Page had a strong personal fascination with the [[occult]], while many of Black Sabbath's lyrics dealt with it as well. Unlike many future bands, however, Black Sabbath never claimed to be Satanic. Singer Ozzy Osbourne claims that they were actually looking for a way to tap into the success and popularity of the horror genre, where people willingly paid to see a movie or read a novel intended solely to frighten them; to do so, they began to purposely write dark, ominous songs in an attempt to be music's answer to horror films. <br />
<br />
Live shows were becoming bigger and more theatrical, notably Led Zeppelin's "rock till you drop" performances lasting two hours, and Alice Cooper's colossal shows following in the American tradition of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, promising "The Greatest Show On Earth". Cooper's shows featured boa constrictors, horrific freak-show mannequins, and dramatic fake-beheading scenes. Other key artists that emerged at this time included High Tide, Black Cat Bones, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, UFO and Blue Oyster Cult, and glam rockers Kiss. Each of the four members of Kiss took the on-stage persona of a cartoon-like character using elaborate face make-up and a science fiction style clothing. Another American band, Aerosmith, took the basic R 'n' B and rock 'n' roll structures of bands such as the Faces and Rolling Stones and transformed them into a new harder form. The late 70s saw a decline in the popularity of heavy metal, as the Punk movement, beginning in 1976, dominated the musical counterculture.<br />
<br />
==1980s==<br />
During the early 1970s three British bands were formed that would arguably become the most dramatically influential of the genre during the 1980s: [[Judas Priest]], Motorhead, and [[Iron Maiden]]. The 1980s also gave rise to the American thrash metal movement with notable bands being [[Metallica]], [[Megadeth]], Anthrax, and Slayer. During the 1980s glam metal also became very popular with bands including Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, and [[Stryper]].<br />
<br />
==Criticism==<br />
<br />
Due to its association with the counter culture movement and the more extreme forms that it has taken over the years, heavy metal has faced criticism from parents groups, school administrators, politicians, music critics, and religious organizations. <br />
<br />
A musicologist wrote:<br />
<br />
:The development of heavy metal music in the '60s and its continuing popularity through the '70s, '80s, and '90s coincides, for one thing, with the period of the greatest popularity horror films and books have ever known. Both mark a transitional moment in our history: the end of Pax Americana; new economic crises; de-industrialization, the decline of unions and the rise of low-pay service jobs; revelations of corrupt leadership; powerful social movements challenging dominant policies on race, gender, ecology, and consumer rights; new challenges to the stability of social institutions such as the family; and redefinitions of political themes such as freedom. Much of the culture of the past twenty years has functioned to restore the sense of security undermined by these disruptions. Heavy metal, like horror films, has provided ways of producing meaning in an irrational society. <ref>[http://www.superseventies.com/stairway.html Dr. Robert Walser, Professor of Musicology, Dartmouth College] - author of ''Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music''</ref><br />
<br />
===Satanism===<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
===Anti-Christianity===<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
===Suicide and Violence===<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref><br />
Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
The term was first used in a musical context by [[Canada|Canadian]] rock band '''Steppenwolf''' in their 1968 hit record<ref>Billboard Hot 100 singles chart: highest position #2</ref> ''Born To Be Wild'', which contained the line: "I like smoke and lightning, heavy metal thunder..." The song received worldwide exposure the following year when it was used in the soundtrack of the 1969 [[counterculture]] movie ''[[Easy Rider]]''. However, the phrase "heavy metal" had previously been used in 1962 by [[William Burroughs]] in his novel ''The Soft Machine'',<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133290 ISBN-13: 978-0802133298</ref> which contained a character named "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid". In 1964, he used it to describe mass technological destruction to the point of biological toxicity in his novel ''Nova Express''.<ref>ISBN-10: 0802133304 ISBN-13: 978-0802133304 </ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
==See Also==<br />
[[Black Metal]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Rock & Roll]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=511831Heavy metal music2008-09-07T03:01:18Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy Metal''' is an Anti-Christian style of music that began to develop between 1969 and 1974 from Psychedelic and Blues Rock and Classical music. The aural aspects of metal generally revolve around highly-amplified guitar distortion, heavy bass lines, fast and melodic guitar leads and varying styles of vocals ranging from operatic to guttural.<br />
<br />
==Satanism==<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
==Denial of Satanism==<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
==Anti-Christianity==<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
==Suicide and Violence==<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref><br />
Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <br />
<br />
== Sub Genres ==<br />
<br />
'''The following are sub genres of heavy metal:'''<br />
*[[Black Metal]] <br />
*[[Death Metal]] - morbid lyrics<br />
*[[Thrash Metal]]<br />
*[[Speed Metal]]<br />
*[[New Wave Of British Heavy Metal]]<br />
*[[Doom Metal]] - gloomy, pessimistic lyrics<br />
*[[Folk Metal]] <br />
*[[Viking Metal]]<br />
*[[Power Metal]]<br />
*[[Progressive (or Avant-Garde) Metal]] <br />
*[[Gothic Metal]]<br />
*[[Swedish Death Metal]]<br />
<br />
== Heavy Metal Bands ==<br />
<br />
'''The following artists are considered to be heavy metal:'''<br />
*[[Metallica]]<br />
*[[Pantera]]<br />
*[[Megadeth]]<br />
*[[Ozzy Osbourne]]<br />
*[[Black Sabbath]]<br />
*[[Rob Zombie]]<br />
*[[Marilyn Manson]]<br />
*[[Opeth]]<br />
*[[AC/DC]]<br />
*[[Alice Cooper]]<br />
*[[KISS]]<br />
*[[Slayer]]<br />
*[[Anthrax (band)|Anthrax]]<br />
*[[Deep Purple]] - although they resist the classification<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
[[Category: Music]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=511830Heavy metal music2008-09-07T03:00:46Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Heavy Metahttp://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Jose83/metal&action=edit<br />
Editl''' is an Anti-Christian style of music that began to develop between 1969 and 1974 from Psychedelic and Blues Rock and Classical music. The aural aspects of metal generally revolve around highly-amplified guitar distortion, heavy bass lines, fast and melodic guitar leads and varying styles of vocals ranging from operatic to guttural.<br />
<br />
==Satanism==<br />
<br />
Many bands create giant props of Satan for their concerts accompanied with flames and fireworks in order to recreate the conditions of [[Hell]]. Metal songs that promote Satanism include ''"By Demons Be Driven"'' by Pantera, <ref>[http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/pantera/vulgardisplayofpower.html#10 By Demons Be Driven lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref> and ''"The Conjuring"'' by Megadeth.<ref> [http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/34511/Megadeth+-+The+Conjuring.html The Conjuring lyrics] </ref> <ref> [http://www.av1611.org/rock.html Rock music: Devil's advocate] </ref><br />
Bands such as [[Mudvayne]] even heavily alter their appearance so that they physically resemble [[Satan]] himself.<br />
<br />
The "Devil-Horns" hand signal is a common gesture made in metal culture. This is done by placing your ring, and middle finger together along with your thumb and then raising your index and pinky fingers. This is done to look like the horns of [[Satan]].<br />
<br />
==Denial of Satanism==<br />
<br />
Some individuals become so immersed in the Heavy Metal culture that the vehemently deny the obvious correlation between Heavy Metal and Satanism. <br />
<br />
==Anti-Christianity==<br />
<br />
Anti-Christian sentiments are quite common amongst the extreme metal sub genres, especially in the Scandanavian black metal scene. Metal bands that claim to be Christian are criticized for making Un-Christian sounding music, or faking Christianity to sell records or corrupt young Christians. Supporters of Christian metal often deny the inherently violent natures of heavy metal music and overlook the fact that Jesus would not want Christians to channel these negative emotions. <br />
<br />
==Suicide and Violence==<br />
<br />
Besides Satanic criticism, Heavy Metal music has been known to promote violence, sex and suicide among youths. Glamorization of suicide can be observed in songs such as ''"Suicide Solution"'' by Ozzy Osbourne <ref> [http://www.metrolyrics.com/suicide-solution-lyrics-ozzy-osbourne.html Suicide solution lyrics] </ref> and ''"Fade to Black"'' by Metallica, <ref> [http://www.encycmet.com/songs/srfade2b.shtml Fade to Black is about suicide]</ref> while violence is promoted in songs like ''"Take No Prisoners"'' by Megadeth <ref> [http://www.actionext.com/names_m/megadeth_lyrics/take_no_prisoners.html Take no prisoners lyrics] </ref> and ''"Die by the Sword"'' by Slayer. Metal songs with violent lyrics have shown to lead to an increase of the amount of violent thoughts and actions within the listener.<ref>[http://www.apa.org/releases/violentsongs.html Violent Music Lyrics Increase Aggressive Thoughts and Feelings, According to new Study]</ref><br />
Riots after Heavy Metal concerts are a regular, expected occurence. <br />
<br />
== Sub Genres ==<br />
<br />
'''The following are sub genres of heavy metal:'''<br />
*[[Black Metal]] <br />
*[[Death Metal]] - morbid lyrics<br />
*[[Thrash Metal]]<br />
*[[Speed Metal]]<br />
*[[New Wave Of British Heavy Metal]]<br />
*[[Doom Metal]] - gloomy, pessimistic lyrics<br />
*[[Folk Metal]] <br />
*[[Viking Metal]]<br />
*[[Power Metal]]<br />
*[[Progressive (or Avant-Garde) Metal]] <br />
*[[Gothic Metal]]<br />
*[[Swedish Death Metal]]<br />
<br />
== Heavy Metal Bands ==<br />
<br />
'''The following artists are considered to be heavy metal:'''<br />
*[[Metallica]]<br />
*[[Pantera]]<br />
*[[Megadeth]]<br />
*[[Ozzy Osbourne]]<br />
*[[Black Sabbath]]<br />
*[[Rob Zombie]]<br />
*[[Marilyn Manson]]<br />
*[[Opeth]]<br />
*[[AC/DC]]<br />
*[[Alice Cooper]]<br />
*[[KISS]]<br />
*[[Slayer]]<br />
*[[Anthrax (band)|Anthrax]]<br />
*[[Deep Purple]] - although they resist the classification<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
[[Category: Music]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Rules_of_Chivalry_for_Students&diff=509727Talk:Essay:Rules of Chivalry for Students2008-09-03T01:26:11Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>At first I thought this might be parody, then I saw who created it... now I think perhaps it's not that bad a page after all. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 20:22, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Why would you think it was parody? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::Because it's typical of liberals to accuse conservatives of being outdated, or of supporting gender inequality. If it looks like us as seen by them, it may be written by them. But I know Aschlafly is no parodist, so I can trust this. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 20:56, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:This is no parody. My class of 56 teenagers, boys and girls, starts Thursday. Unlike my prior classes, this one is going to develop a bit of [[chivalry]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:26, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::Aschlafly, might I ask where you teach? I more than somewhat like the articles I see here. I did not know as much about Barack Obama untill I read that article on him,and am rather impressed by the depth of multiple other articles. [[User:JohnI|JohnI]] 20:31, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::: I teach in [[New Jersey]]. I don't use any school. Thanks for your comments, if sincere, and regardless Godspeed to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:34, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::As a thought, it would be interesting to ask the students in your pending class to contribute a few entries themselves. I'm sure most of us are not teen-age students, so it would be interesting to get their direct perspective on what they'd consider "chivalrous". --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Sports==<br />
What does attending boys' sporting events have to do with chivalry? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:35, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:It is supportive of your classmates.[[User:ErstBlenchPoet|ErstBlenchPoet]] 20:37, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::I just don't see that as fitting in. Lets get more opinions. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:38, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Because they are more easily injured, girls should not play most sports (except the explicitly feminine ones such as gymnastics or dance). Therefore it is appropriate for them to cheer on the sidelines and provide support.[[User:ErstBlenchPoet|ErstBlenchPoet]] 20:40, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::::Ah, I see. Welcome back, ErstBlenchPoet. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::I do somewhat object to that, I have seen quite a couple women and girls playing sports, including what you would consider not to be "explictily feminine ones", and while I have seen some of them get injured, the amount seemed about even to the men. I believe that both genders can cheer at athletic events, as below. [[User:JohnI|JohnI]] 20:45, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::I agree that attending sports events is supportive however I dont think it specifically applies to girls as such. More the whole class should get out and cheer each other on. [[User:ClarkeD|ClarkeD]] 20:42, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::::I removed it per consensus. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::::How about a "both" section? It would be a good place for listing things like being supportive of classmates' endeavors. I also think the "no cursing" should be #1. [[User:Human|Human]] 21:06, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==hat doffing==<br />
(unindent) Would removing one's hat in the presence of a lady be considered anachronistic? While a hat is no longer a major part of adult attire, many teenagers wear baseball caps and the like. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 20:47, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I was brought up to not wear hats inside period. [[User:ClarkeD|ClarkeD]] 20:49, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I can't believe my entry was removed. I am from Belgium and here most girls curtsey, and all are taught to! I can't believe that it is considered anachronistic in America! I hope the other Europeans here agree with me. --[[User:HPoirot|HPoirot]] 20:52, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I never saw that in Brussles. But then again, my eyes were only for chocolate. ;-) Seriously, your teens curtsey for someone other than royalty?--[[User:MHayes|MHayes]] 21:09, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::And how often did you see men bow? Good manners are fading, but I guarantee you that every girl learns to curtsey here. --[[User:HPoirot|HPoirot]] 21:18, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Complementing people==<br />
why should complementing people be reserved as something boys do for girls. *everyone* especially young teens trying to find their path in this world, can benefit from sharp, insightful (not empty) complements. "I really like your ideas on that last question". "Your writing style is impressive". and "I find that you have wonderful taste in literature, would you recommend something to me". "golly sally you are sure' perty" seems like something from the 1950's tv reality. We can have our well educated kids do far better than that! I try to find one really genuine thing to say about a person I work with each day. And when I can, I try to make it about them, not just what they are wearing, or things they cant change like how pretty they look.--[[User:MHayes|MHayes]] 21:07, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Nicely said. A sincere compliment on what someone does (which we can change with every choice we make) goes a long way to building a good self-image. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:20, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: Chivalry emphasizes complimenting females. They appreciate it more than males do. In fact, a male can find a compliment to be patronizing or insincere.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:24, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Dresses==<br />
<br />
I believe it should be mentioned that wearing a dress is preferable for a girl seeing how it is more traditional and it establishes set gender roles. Pants were originally designed to be worn exclusively by men and were worn exclusively until the Feminist movement in the 60's. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
Girls<br />
<br />
1. Put your superior social skills to good use by welcoming others.<br />
2. Do not attempt to embarrass a boy, as in trying to beat him in arm-wrestling or bragging that you did better on a test.<br />
3. Avoid excessive gossip.<br />
4. Dress modestly, not provocatively or suggestively. A dress is preferable.<br />
5. Avoid profanity. <br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Rules_of_Chivalry_for_Students&diff=509726Talk:Essay:Rules of Chivalry for Students2008-09-03T01:25:42Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>At first I thought this might be parody, then I saw who created it... now I think perhaps it's not that bad a page after all. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 20:22, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Why would you think it was parody? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::Because it's typical of liberals to accuse conservatives of being outdated, or of supporting gender inequality. If it looks like us as seen by them, it may be written by them. But I know Aschlafly is no parodist, so I can trust this. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 20:56, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:This is no parody. My class of 56 teenagers, boys and girls, starts Thursday. Unlike my prior classes, this one is going to develop a bit of [[chivalry]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:26, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::Aschlafly, might I ask where you teach? I more than somewhat like the articles I see here. I did not know as much about Barack Obama untill I read that article on him,and am rather impressed by the depth of multiple other articles. [[User:JohnI|JohnI]] 20:31, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::: I teach in [[New Jersey]]. I don't use any school. Thanks for your comments, if sincere, and regardless Godspeed to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:34, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::As a thought, it would be interesting to ask the students in your pending class to contribute a few entries themselves. I'm sure most of us are not teen-age students, so it would be interesting to get their direct perspective on what they'd consider "chivalrous". --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Sports==<br />
What does attending boys' sporting events have to do with chivalry? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:35, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:It is supportive of your classmates.[[User:ErstBlenchPoet|ErstBlenchPoet]] 20:37, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::I just don't see that as fitting in. Lets get more opinions. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:38, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Because they are more easily injured, girls should not play most sports (except the explicitly feminine ones such as gymnastics or dance). Therefore it is appropriate for them to cheer on the sidelines and provide support.[[User:ErstBlenchPoet|ErstBlenchPoet]] 20:40, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::::Ah, I see. Welcome back, ErstBlenchPoet. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::I do somewhat object to that, I have seen quite a couple women and girls playing sports, including what you would consider not to be "explictily feminine ones", and while I have seen some of them get injured, the amount seemed about even to the men. I believe that both genders can cheer at athletic events, as below. [[User:JohnI|JohnI]] 20:45, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::I agree that attending sports events is supportive however I dont think it specifically applies to girls as such. More the whole class should get out and cheer each other on. [[User:ClarkeD|ClarkeD]] 20:42, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::::I removed it per consensus. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::::How about a "both" section? It would be a good place for listing things like being supportive of classmates' endeavors. I also think the "no cursing" should be #1. [[User:Human|Human]] 21:06, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==hat doffing==<br />
(unindent) Would removing one's hat in the presence of a lady be considered anachronistic? While a hat is no longer a major part of adult attire, many teenagers wear baseball caps and the like. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 20:47, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I was brought up to not wear hats inside period. [[User:ClarkeD|ClarkeD]] 20:49, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I can't believe my entry was removed. I am from Belgium and here most girls curtsey, and all are taught to! I can't believe that it is considered anachronistic in America! I hope the other Europeans here agree with me. --[[User:HPoirot|HPoirot]] 20:52, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I never saw that in Brussles. But then again, my eyes were only for chocolate. ;-) Seriously, your teens curtsey for someone other than royalty?--[[User:MHayes|MHayes]] 21:09, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::And how often did you see men bow? Good manners are fading, but I guarantee you that every girl learns to curtsey here. --[[User:HPoirot|HPoirot]] 21:18, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Complementing people==<br />
why should complementing people be reserved as something boys do for girls. *everyone* especially young teens trying to find their path in this world, can benefit from sharp, insightful (not empty) complements. "I really like your ideas on that last question". "Your writing style is impressive". and "I find that you have wonderful taste in literature, would you recommend something to me". "golly sally you are sure' perty" seems like something from the 1950's tv reality. We can have our well educated kids do far better than that! I try to find one really genuine thing to say about a person I work with each day. And when I can, I try to make it about them, not just what they are wearing, or things they cant change like how pretty they look.--[[User:MHayes|MHayes]] 21:07, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Nicely said. A sincere compliment on what someone does (which we can change with every choice we make) goes a long way to building a good self-image. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:20, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: Chivalry emphasizes complimenting females. They appreciate it more than males do. In fact, a male can find a compliment to be patronizing or insincere.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:24, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Dresses==<br />
<br />
I believe it should be mentioned that wearing a dress is preferable for a girl seeing how it is more traditional and it establishes set gender roles. Pants were originally designed to be worn exclusively by men and were worn exclusively until the Feminist movement in the 60's. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
Girls<br />
<br />
1. Put your superior social skills to good use by welcoming others.<br />
2. Do not attempt to embarrass a boy, as in trying to beat him in arm-wrestling or bragging that you did better on a test.<br />
3. Avoid excessive gossip.<br />
4. Dress modestly, not provocatively or suggestively. A Dress is preferable.<br />
5. Avoid profanity. <br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Essay:Rules_of_Chivalry_for_Students&diff=509722Talk:Essay:Rules of Chivalry for Students2008-09-03T01:24:27Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>At first I thought this might be parody, then I saw who created it... now I think perhaps it's not that bad a page after all. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 20:22, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:Why would you think it was parody? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::Because it's typical of liberals to accuse conservatives of being outdated, or of supporting gender inequality. If it looks like us as seen by them, it may be written by them. But I know Aschlafly is no parodist, so I can trust this. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 20:56, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:This is no parody. My class of 56 teenagers, boys and girls, starts Thursday. Unlike my prior classes, this one is going to develop a bit of [[chivalry]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:26, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::Aschlafly, might I ask where you teach? I more than somewhat like the articles I see here. I did not know as much about Barack Obama untill I read that article on him,and am rather impressed by the depth of multiple other articles. [[User:JohnI|JohnI]] 20:31, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::: I teach in [[New Jersey]]. I don't use any school. Thanks for your comments, if sincere, and regardless Godspeed to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:34, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::As a thought, it would be interesting to ask the students in your pending class to contribute a few entries themselves. I'm sure most of us are not teen-age students, so it would be interesting to get their direct perspective on what they'd consider "chivalrous". --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:23, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Sports==<br />
What does attending boys' sporting events have to do with chivalry? [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:35, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:It is supportive of your classmates.[[User:ErstBlenchPoet|ErstBlenchPoet]] 20:37, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::I just don't see that as fitting in. Lets get more opinions. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:38, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Because they are more easily injured, girls should not play most sports (except the explicitly feminine ones such as gymnastics or dance). Therefore it is appropriate for them to cheer on the sidelines and provide support.[[User:ErstBlenchPoet|ErstBlenchPoet]] 20:40, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::::Ah, I see. Welcome back, ErstBlenchPoet. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::I do somewhat object to that, I have seen quite a couple women and girls playing sports, including what you would consider not to be "explictily feminine ones", and while I have seen some of them get injured, the amount seemed about even to the men. I believe that both genders can cheer at athletic events, as below. [[User:JohnI|JohnI]] 20:45, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::I agree that attending sports events is supportive however I dont think it specifically applies to girls as such. More the whole class should get out and cheer each other on. [[User:ClarkeD|ClarkeD]] 20:42, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:::::I removed it per consensus. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 20:46, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::::::How about a "both" section? It would be a good place for listing things like being supportive of classmates' endeavors. I also think the "no cursing" should be #1. [[User:Human|Human]] 21:06, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==hat doffing==<br />
(unindent) Would removing one's hat in the presence of a lady be considered anachronistic? While a hat is no longer a major part of adult attire, many teenagers wear baseball caps and the like. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 20:47, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I was brought up to not wear hats inside period. [[User:ClarkeD|ClarkeD]] 20:49, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I can't believe my entry was removed. I am from Belgium and here most girls curtsey, and all are taught to! I can't believe that it is considered anachronistic in America! I hope the other Europeans here agree with me. --[[User:HPoirot|HPoirot]] 20:52, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
:I never saw that in Brussles. But then again, my eyes were only for chocolate. ;-) Seriously, your teens curtsey for someone other than royalty?--[[User:MHayes|MHayes]] 21:09, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
::And how often did you see men bow? Good manners are fading, but I guarantee you that every girl learns to curtsey here. --[[User:HPoirot|HPoirot]] 21:18, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Complementing people==<br />
why should complementing people be reserved as something boys do for girls. *everyone* especially young teens trying to find their path in this world, can benefit from sharp, insightful (not empty) complements. "I really like your ideas on that last question". "Your writing style is impressive". and "I find that you have wonderful taste in literature, would you recommend something to me". "golly sally you are sure' perty" seems like something from the 1950's tv reality. We can have our well educated kids do far better than that! I try to find one really genuine thing to say about a person I work with each day. And when I can, I try to make it about them, not just what they are wearing, or things they cant change like how pretty they look.--[[User:MHayes|MHayes]] 21:07, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Nicely said. A sincere compliment on what someone does (which we can change with every choice we make) goes a long way to building a good self-image. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 21:20, 2 September 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Dresses==<br />
<br />
I believe it should be mentioned that wearing a dress is preferable for a girl seeing how it is more traditional and it establishes set gender roles. Pants were originally designed to be worn exclusively by men and were worn exclusively until the Feminist movement in the 60's. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Cult_of_personality&diff=509705Cult of personality2008-09-03T01:12:50Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>A '''cult of personality''' refers to a situation in which the leader of a country, usually a dictator, uses propaganda and media tools excessively to create a strongly positive image of himself. People who have created a cult of personality include [[Kim Jong Il]], [[Saddam Hussein]], [[Adolf Hitler]], [[Josef Stalin]], [[Fidel Castro]], and [[Barack Obama]].<br />
<br />
"Cult of Personality" was also a song by [[New York]] band Living Colour that won the 1989 [[Grammy]] for Best Hard Rock Performance. The song makes references to Stalin and [[Benito Mussolini]]. The song is featured in the popular [[video game]] [[Guitar Hero|Guitar Hero 3]].<br />
[[category:politics]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Rules_of_Chivalry_for_Students&diff=509669Essay:Rules of Chivalry for Students2008-09-03T00:50:24Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>Teenagers (and adults) would benefit from a bit more [[chivalry]] in their behavior. For students, here are some suggested guidelines:<br />
<br />
== Boys ==<br />
<br />
#When you see a girl carrying something heavy, offer to carry it for her.<br />
#Stand up when a girl or woman enters the room.<br />
#Do not use profanity in front of a girl.<br />
#Be appreciative when girls bake cookies for the entire class.<br />
#Compliment girls.<br />
#Open doors for the girls and help them to sit down.<br />
<br />
== Girls ==<br />
<br />
#Put your superior social skills to good use by welcoming others.<br />
#Do not attempt to embarrass a boy, as in trying to beat him in arm-wrestling or bragging that you did better on a test.<br />
#Avoid excessive [[gossip]].<br />
#Dress modestly, not provocatively or suggestively. Wear a dress.<br />
#Do not curse.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Essays]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Liberal_denial&diff=509652Liberal denial2008-09-03T00:37:11Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Liberal denial''' is the tendency of [[liberals]] to go into "denial mode" and conceal, deny or censor the truth for ideological reasons. A list of the top ten ''common'' instances of [[liberal denial]] are the following:<br />
<br />
# [[liberals]] deny they are [[liberal]], and that most of the media are [[liberal]]<br />
# [[Hollywood values]], [[professor values]] and general [[liberal]] values have consequences for those who believe in them, and also for innocent victims<br />
# [[liberals]] have censored [[prayer]] in [[public school]]<ref>A [[public school]] student who once "tape recorded a teacher making religious remarks to his students" to complain about it then later objected to a textbook explaining how prayer is censored from [[public school]] schools by court decisions. [http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=4614012]</ref> <br />
# a woman significantly reduces her risk of breast cancer by having children rather than [[abortions]]<br />
# about half of promiscuous people carry sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), and those STDs cause infertility<ref>"Among those who admitted having sex, the rate was even more disturbing -- 40 percent had an STD."[http://www.tulsaworld.com/lifestyle/article.aspx?articleID=20080312_1_C12_hUShe15125]</ref><br />
# the strident promoters of [[evolution]] generally have weaker credentials than advocates of [[intelligent design]]<ref>See, e.g., [[Richard Sternberg]]</ref><br />
# college faculties at nearly every school are completely dominated by [[liberals]], and have virtually no [[conservatives]]<br />
# [[homosexuality]] shortens lifespan for a variety of reasons<br />
# reducing the number of guns, which are primarily defensive weapons, results in an increase in crime<br />
# [[Liberals]] deny that the war in [[Iraq]] was needed and also deny that the surge has worked<br />
<br />
<br />
More generally, liberals also deny:<br />
<br />
# more than 80% of child molesters are pornography addicts<br />
# people like [[young mass murderers]] who take [[atheistic]] beliefs to their logical conclusions are not "crazy" or "insane", but are true believers <br />
# the intellectual justification for [[Hitler]]'s attempt to build a master Aryan race was the [[theory of evolution]]<br />
# [[feminists]] censor discussion about differences between men and women, and boys and girls<br />
# [[Socialized_medicine|state run health care]] has lead to Islamic terrorism in Britain, and would do so in the US. <ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMu6wCqdeyQ ''FOX News analyzes the new terror in state healthcare.''</ref><br />
# obesity is a bigger problem than hunger in the Western world<br />
# that a school having virtually no [[conservative]] teachers and many [[atheists]] and [[liberals]] is a [[liberal]] school<br />
# that [[liberals]] attempt to intimidate and ostracize [[conservatives]], particularly in school environments and some occupations.<ref>See [[liberals and friendship]].</ref><br />
# that [[liberals]] support taxpayer-funded [[abortion]]<br />
# that girls and women in sports have debilitating ACL knee injuries at 3-4 times the rate of men,<ref>''Compare'' [http://www.universityhealthmatters.com/article.php?artid=50] (with an explanation of why there is a big difference) ''with'' [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/health/18knee.html?ex=1204088400&en=3a5abfaa6104ac63&ei=5070&emc=eta1 New York Times] (downplaying the difference and pretending that no one knows why). The New York Times denies overwhelming evidence, including the following:<br />
:"Female athletes, particularly basketball players, are far more likely than their male counterparts to suffer ACL [Anterior Cruciate Ligament] injuries." Stephen Hargis, "Girls have more torn ACLs," Chattanooga Times Free Press (Tennessee), D1 (Feb. 4, 2005). According to the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, the risk of women tearing their ACL is 1 in 100. This number drops significantly to only 1 in 500 for men. See Nikki Usher, "Knee injury takes toll on girls playing soccer five times more likely than males to suffer a torn ACL," Philadelphia Inquirer, A01 (Nov. 29, 2004). "Compared with guys, female athletes run an eight-times-greater risk of tearing the ACL, a fibrous band that connects the shinbone (tibia) to the thighbone (femur). Basketball, soccer and other sports that require cutting moves or jump shots can put athletes at risk." Kathleen Fackelmann, "Girls face higher knee injury risk," USA Today, 15B (Aug. 24, 2004). Timothy Hewett, PhD, the lead researcher on a definitive study at the Sports Medicine Biodynamics Center at the University of Cincinnati, says this is "close to a billion-dollar problem in girls and women in the USA. ... Even after girls have recovered from the acute injury, the changes in the joint may set the stage for osteoarthritis of the knee ...." ''Id.'' That obvious suspicion was quickly confirmed: a study subsequently published in Arthritis & Rheumatism demonstrated that "more than half of ... 103 soccer players, who were ages 14 to 28 at the time of the ACL injury, suffered osteoarthritis of the knee at the time of the study -- about 12 years later." Kathleen Fackelmann, "Girls' knee injuries have later consequences," USA Today, 9D (Oct. 7, 2004). "Many of the women, who were about 31 by that time, also said they had pain or some other disability that made it hard to conduct daily activities." ''Id.''</ref> and are vulnerable to other injuries<ref>"Amber Scull ruptured her spleen after she was tackled during a practice drill at Nature Coast Tech in Brooksville 2 1/2 months ago. Had she [not] arrived at the hospital 30 minutes later, doctors told her mother, she might have died." [http://www.sptimes.com/2004/01/06/news_pf/Sports/Girls_face_dangers_on.shtml]</ref><br />
# that [[young mass murderers]] fit the profile of [[public school]]-trained [[atheism]]<br />
# that the numerous premature deaths of [[Hollywood]] stars are the result of [[Hollywood values]]<ref>Liberal [[Wikipedia]] lists numerous [[actor]]s who died of drug overdoses, but will not acknowledge the role played by [[Hollywood values]], for which Wikipedia does not even have an entry. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths]</ref><br />
# that [[homeschoolers]] often do better than those who attend [[public school]]<br />
# that [[culture]] affects [[politics]], and people's views and lifestyles<br />
# that successful [[democracy]], both historically and logically, is the result of [[Protestantism|Protestant]] [[Christianity]]<ref>[http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/cultural_apologetics/snyder-democracy1.html Calvinism and the Success of Liberal Democracy, by John Snyder]</ref><br />
# that [[Lawrence Summers]] was fired as President of [[Harvard]] for making a [[political correctness|politically incorrect]] suggestion about women and [[math]] aptitude<br />
# that [[Ronald Reagan]]'s public exhortation, "[[Mikhail Gorbachev|Mr. Gorbachev]], tear down this wall," helped cause the nearly 30-year-old [[Berlin Wall]] later be torn down<br />
# that [[gun control]] increases [[crime]]<br />
# that reducing [[taxes]] stimulates the [[economy]]<br />
# that choosing [[abortion]] over childbirth increases the risk of [[breast cancer]]<br />
# that the [[mainstream media]] is [[bias]]ed<br />
# that privately-run [[transport]] is more efficient than government-run transport<br />
# that [[Universal Health Care|public health care]] is inferior medical care<br />
# that [[Labor union|union]]s interfere with [[employment]] opportunities<br />
# that [[liberal]] leaders engage in shocking wrongdoing, [[Liberal hypocrisy|hypocrisy]], and abuse of power<ref>See, e.g., leading [[liberal]] [[Eliot Spitzer]] and how fellow [[liberals]] downplayed or were silent about his misconduct.</ref><br />
# that ideas do matter, and can cause great harm, including liberal falsehoods<br />
# that [[Islam]]ic extremism is a threat to the [[Western civilization]]<ref>Leftist [[Sam Harris]] admitted and complained about this liberal denial [http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061009/REPOSITORY/610090301/1028/OPINION02 here].</ref><br />
# that banning [[same-sex marriage]] is analogous to banning [[polygamy]]<br />
# that aggressive interrogation is often the only way to obtain answers from [[terrorists]]<br />
# how the [[liberal]] ideology is pushed on unsuspecting others, particularly youngsters<br />
# that free trade strengthens global democracies<br />
# that a child in a mother's womb has rights established by the [[Constitution]]<br />
# that a [[vote]] for (yea) or a vote against (nea) is an absolute position<br />
# that you can be held accountable for the statements uttered<br />
# that climate forecasts 50 years from now are as inaccurate as 15 days from now<br />
# that politicians that proclaim 'Change' actually do not break with policies of the past<br />
# that removing [[Saddam Hussein]] from power was a good thing.<br />
# that eating [[meat]] and [[dairy]] is important for physical and mental health.<br />
# that [[marijuana]] use has no lasting psychological effects.<br />
# that illegal immigrants contribute to crime and poverty in the towns and cities they occupy.<br />
# that English will cease being the language of the United States in 20 years unless it is protected as the [[official language]] (and that this would be a loss if it happened).<br />
# that President Bush didn't cause Hurricane Katrina.<br />
# that President Clinton was responsible for Rwanda inaction.<br />
# that the Democratic party discriminates against African-Americans.<br />
# that restricting free speech by the [[Fairness Doctrine]] is actually not fair nor democratic.<br />
# that we can drill oil our way out of high gas prices.<br />
# that we can't replace our dependence on oil with green technologies, when in fact we need both oil and green technologies to solve our energy crisis.<br />
# that opposing same-sex [[marriage]] is justified and point to decriminalized interracial marriage bans as proof.<br />
# that they are [[intolerant]] of opposing viewpoints and then try to stifle further discussion.<br />
# that [[socialism]] and liberalism have the same political agenda.<br />
# that [[God]] should have a place in government<br />
# that modern drilling methods result in minimal environmental impact, even if they were implemented in uninhabited lands such as the [[Arctic National Wildlife Refuge]]<br />
# that companies like [[Exxon]] should pay billions of dollars in damages to the general public, ''in addition'' to the money they spend to clean up industrial accidents and to recompense those directly affected<br />
# that [[selective logging]] keeps forests healthier by reducing the risk of wildfire<br />
# that high food prices are not caused by [[ethanol]] production, but rather by the million acres of crop- and pastureland that have been taken out of production in the interest of wildlife conservation.<br />
# that the life of a human is more important than the life of an animal or plant.<br />
# that modern technology can make [[coal]] clean<br />
# that a fence is the most effective and ultimately, the most peaceful way to protect our large border from illegal immigrants trying to get in<br />
# that socially dangerous people exhibit a well-documented pattern of reading habits<br />
# that [[heavy metal]] music is generally anti-Christian and promotes themes such as drugs, sex and [[Satan]] worship.<br />
<br />
Often [[liberal]]s refuse to admit that they are [[liberal]]s, in the hope of appearing more reasonable. [[Hillary Clinton]] refused to admit in a presidential debate in 2007 that she is a [[liberal]]. Similarly, [[Michael Dukakis]] refused for a while to admit that he was a [[liberal]] during the 1988 presidential campaign. Only out of desperation did Dukakis admit that he was a [[liberal]], and even then he admitted only that was a liberal like President [[Harry Truman]], who served 40 years earlier.<br />
<br />
Liberals like to bash President Bush as a war monger and cite [[President Clinton]] for his eight years of peace and prosperity. Liberals will deny record low unemployment, more people owning their homes and President Bush going after [[terrorists]] while protecting Americans from further attacks. Liberals will selectively forget that during Clinton's term: the [[Rwanda]] massacre occured, the bombing of the USS Cole, the war in the [[Balkans]], the two US embassies bombed in [[Africa]], the Kobar tower bombing in Saudi Arabia, the [[Somalia]] conflict, the missile strike against [[Afghanistan]] and the bombing campaign against Iraq. Also, [[liberals]] will deny that Clinton's economic policy ignored a series of high profile companies that eventually collapsed due to fraud: Enron, Tyco, Worldcom and Qwest. <br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
{{liberalism}}<br />
[[category:politics]]<br />
[[category:liberals]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Christianity&diff=507520Christianity2008-08-30T21:04:48Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Christianity}}<br />
'''Christianity''' is the world's largest religion, having over 2 billion adherents, and takes its name from [[Jesus Christ]] meaning "Jesus the Savior" and "Jesus the Anointed One". Adherents are called Christians, meaning "of Christ" or "belonging to Christ".<ref>[http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=2661&dict=CALD Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary]</ref> It seems that at first the [[religion]] was called "The Way" and the adherents were called Nazarenes (after the city of [[Nazareth]] where Jesus lived). The name Christian arose in [[Antioch]] in the first century A. D. and its use spread, probably closer to mid-century since it is recorded in the [[Acts of the Apostles|Book of Acts]] (Acts:11:26) Christianity is the only true religion.<br />
<br />
== Main Christian groups ==<br />
<br />
The three largest self-governing bodies of Christians are:<br />
<br />
* the [[Roman Catholic Church]] (approx. 1.1 billion baptized members) traces its roots back to [[Saint Peter]] who Catholic believed established the Church and the succession of the [[Pope]]s as the spiritual authority over the Christian body of believers. <br />
<br />
* the [[Orthodox Church]]es (approx. 300 million baptized members) also trace their roots back to the beginnings of Christianity, but do not believe in the Primacy of the Pope. Different theological perspectives led to the [[Great Schism]] between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches in A.D. 1054. <br />
<br />
* [[Protestantism]], the largest Communions are the [[Anglican Church|Anglicans]] (approx. 77 million baptized members) and the Lutheran World Federation (approx. 68 million baptized members). Protestantism has its origins in the European [[Reformation]]. It first broke away from the Roman Catholic Church under [[Martin Luther]] when differences over the nature of faith and works in the role of [[Christianity#salvation|salvation]] could not be adequately reconciled with Papal prescriptions as well as other practices that Luther saw in the Catholic Church at that time that he did not agree with. Other preachers and movements then followed Luther's example and also left the Catholic fold.<br />
<br />
== Christian beliefs ==<br />
Theologians, over two millennia, have debated a definitive summary of the Christian faith. While its interpretations vary drastically, probably the most commonly accepted statement of faith is the [[Nicene Creed| Nicea-Constantinopolitan Creed]] below:<br />
<br />
<blockquote>I believe in one God, [[God the Father|the Father Almighty]], Maker of [[heaven]] and [[earth]], and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the [[Holy Spirit]] and the [[Virgin Mary]], and became man. And He was crucified for us under [[Pontius Pilate]], and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the [[Bible|Scriptures]]; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the [[Resurrection]] of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.</blockquote><br />
<br />
Christians and Christian denominations agree on many points of doctrine and disagree on others. According to an online Harris poll from 2003 99% of all American Christians believe in God, 96% in the [[Resurrection of Jesus Christ|resurrection of Jesus Christ]], 93% in Heaven, 93% in the virgin birth, 92% in the survival of the soul after death, 82% in Hell, 50% in ghosts, 27% in astrology and 21% in reincarnation. <ref>http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359</ref> Note that the latter two beliefs are in opposition to the religious dogma of most Christian denominations.<br />
<br />
Nonetheless, the Nicea-Constantinopolitan Creed offers a general overall picture of what Christian theology looks like, and serves as a useful outline.<br />
<br />
Other creeds may prove helpful in research. See also: the [[Apostle's Creed]], [[Athanasian Creed]].<br />
<br />
===God===<br />
The God of the Christians is a triune being. Though there is only one Divine nature there are three Divine Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three Persons are collectively called the [[Trinity]] or the Holy Trinity. Christians reject the idea that they are polytheists because of the oneness of the divine nature (or essence). Though to non-Christians and even many Christians, it might seem like an inconsequential dogma, the doctrine of the Trinity is central to all of Christian theology and life. This is especially true in the relationship between God and human beings. The major theme of the Bible is love. In the Hebrew [[Old Testament]] the idea is expressed in the Hebrew word ''hessed'', which is variously translated as loyal love, tender mercy, steadfast love, mercy, goodness, etc. in the [[New Testament]] the same idea is expressed in the Greek word ''agape'', which is variously translated as love, compassion, charity, etc. The picture that the Biblical writers draw with these words is of a lover (God) who is entirely self-sufficient, needing nothing, and a beloved (human beings) in desperate need of salvation but unable to obtain it for himself. But God the lover is willing to suffer, knows He is going to suffer, even endure death to save the beloved human beings. This love of God for human beings is an extension of the love the Three Persons in the Trinity have for each other. Each loves the others infinitely. Their love for each other and for their creation is such that the [[Apostle John]] equates God and love, in an almost mathematical way saying, "God is love."<br />
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Additionally, the God of the Christians is the creator of all things, is everywhere present, exists in all times, is transcendent, all-knowing (omniscient), just, all-powerful (omnipotent).<br />
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===Jesus===<br />
Christians hold that during the reign of [[Caeser Augustus]] the Son (e.g. the second Person of the Trinity) took flesh from a virgin woman and was incarnate as a man. He was born in the town of [[Bethlehem]] and was given the name [[Jesus]]. At the age of thirty he was baptized by his cousin, the [[John the Baptist|Prophet John]], and began to preach in the area [[Palestine]]. About three years after his baptism, he raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, prompting the Jewish power establishment to plot Jesus death. Jesus was [[crucified]]. He came back from the dead and was seen by over 500 people. He ascended to heaven. The four [[Gospels]] contain the records of some of what Jesus did and said, but he did much more than those four books relate, as the Apostle John admitted in his Gospel.<br />
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===Jesus' Self Consciousness===<br />
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Jesus, conceived of the Holy Spirit, presented a disturbing surprise to his earthly father, Joseph, knowing he had not impregnated his fiancee, Mary. She would ponder the meaning of this miracle all the days Jesus would grow and finally she would behold her son expire on the cross. But Joseph, told by the Lord who his son really was, and how he had come about, and being warned by the Lord to flee the murderous Herod, took his family to Egypt - until the death of Herod made it safe ("Out of Egypt have I called My Son") to return to Israel. The family settled in Nazareth on the elevated rim of the Jezre'el Valley where he grew well and observably no different from the other youth. But when he was about 12 years old, he was taken to the Temple in Jerusalem, and displayed his consciousness that His real Father was God rather than Joseph ("Didn't you know that I must be here about the matters of My Father?". <br />
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They returned to Nazereth in Galilee and it wasn't until 28 years later that He began to publicly show His consciousness as to who he was. This was at his baptism at the Jordan River by John, when the voice came, to him, to John, and to the people privileged to be around, "This is my Son, the Beloved, Listen (Shma'a) to Him!" Here and now, against even the desire of John the Baptizer, Jesus, knowing that sin was not in him, chose to identify with sinful mankind in this baptism of John for repentance of sin, knowing that at the end of his time on earth, he would then be giving this sinless life of his on the cross, bearing the sins of the world upon himself. <br />
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Back, now, in Galilee, he would begin to do works of mercy, miracles of compassion, healings of deliverance, and overthrowing the devastaions of Satan upon the people of God's compassion - in short, bringing in the Kingdom of Heaven and of God and supplanting the Kingdom of Darkness. He began to gather around him his followers, simple fishing folk and others, spending most of his time in the area around the north shore of the Kinneret (Sea of Galilee). among the Jews of this Jewish area. He was bringing in the Messianic Kingdom to those who would understand it best, the Jews. But all the time, there was burning within him the knowledge that the blessings of Abraham would be extended, according to the promise, to all the peoples of the earth, the Gentiles, and there would be a new Kingdom, a new nation, transcending both Jews and Gentiles, the Kingdom of the people of God the Heavenly Father. He began his forays then into gentile areas, Phoenecia, the Decapolis, and other locales, and finding faith there such as he had not found "even in Israel".<br />
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A crossroads occurred, then, in the choice of Jesus, and consequently in the options of his disciples. It occurred in the Tetrarchy of Philip, at the foothills of Mt. Hermon, at the town of Caesarea Philipi. He knowing who he was, would force the question upon others - "Who do people say Me to be?". From the lips of Shim'on, whom he would call Peter, as leader of the others, He would hear - "You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God!" It was enough. Jesus would then begin imparting to them what the nature of His mission to be - not to expel the Romans from the Holy Land, but to go to Jerusalem, to be betrayed, to be spurned and rejected by the High Priests and the Elders of the People, to be hung on a Roman cross at the hands of the Gentiles, to die. Casesarea Philipi was in between, on one hand, Gentile pervaded Roman Tiberius to the southwest of the Sea, and on the other hand, anti-Roman nationalistic and zealotic Gamla to the north east of the Sea. {This latter would end their rebellion against Rome by suicide on Matzada in 73 A.D). Those two polarities were present in the minds of the disciples and Jesus began, on one hand, to divest from their minds the one, the warrior role of the Messiah against the Romans, and the other, to renew their thinking and their commitment to Him as the self sacrificing Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace and the true Messiah of Israel, on the other hand.<br />
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This took place on the long 3 or 4 day journey by foot from Galilee to Jerusalem, along the [[Jordan River]] valley, coming to Jericho, ascending to Jerusalem from the east. It was in Jerusalem that he prepared and settled the matter for the perpetuation of the Church at the Lord's last supper of the Passover, to be made palpable later by the descent of the Holy Spirit. It was in Jerusalem, in the Garden of the Oil Press, that what He had been lead to believe about his mission and the meaning and manner of his death was fully embraced and accepted with no reservation or turning back. "Your will be done, Father, if there is no other way", and "There is no other way, Your will be done Father!" It was a perfect decision and commitment, perfecting his life to be a perfect sacrifice. And it was to the west just outside Jerusalem that His teachings came to a concretization and realization on the cross. And just outside of Jerusalem that His Father would vindicate him by raising him from the dead.<br />
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"No man takes my life from me. I have power to take it and I have power to lay it down... I lay down my life for the sheep." <ref>Bible, Gospel of John, 10:18,15 http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvJohn.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=10&division=div1</ref><br />
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"Though He was in the form of God, He did not think equality with God something to grasp onto. But He emptied Himself and took to Himself the form of a servant and was made man, And being found in the form of a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross. For this reason, God has exalted Him..."<ref>Bible, Philippians 2:6-9a, http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvPhil.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=2&division=div1 </ref><br />
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===Morality===<br />
The fundamental principle in Christian moral teaching is love and forgiveness, as expressed by the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and the New Testament. Jesus summarized his teachings in two commandments from the Old Testament:<br />
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"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." ([[Gospel of Matthew|Matthew]] 22:37-39; [[Book of Deuteronomy|Deuteronomy]] 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)<br />
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Constant debate has resulted as to how a person should express love for God in their moral behavior. This moral dialogue found expression in the New Testament, where the [[Apostle Paul]] addressed such controversies as [[circumcision]] ([[Book of Romans|Romans]] 2:25-29), eating meat that was sacrificed to [[pagan]] deities (1 Corinthians 8), speculating about myths and genealogies (1 Timothy 1:3-5), and observing ceremonial dates and seasons (Galatians 4:9-11). <br />
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Regardless of a person's ethical interpretations, adherents commonly point to New Testament passages John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 as scriptural depictions of love. The former states that <blockquote>"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."</blockquote> The latter characterizes love, saying <blockquote>"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."</blockquote><br />
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Jesus Christ affirmed, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35)<br />
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===The Atonement of Jesus on the Cross===<br />
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All Christians believe with the New Testament that the death of Jesus, along with His resurrection, is an indispensable proclamation of a crucial event for the reconciliation of lost sinners with God. There are three elements they see to understanding His death on the cross.<br />
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# Jesus having the knowledge that His path would lead to his own death, desired and willed that that take place, and persevered in that path though there was opportunity for Him to avoid it. Though there is ample recognition in the New Testament that others desired Him to die, and that the circumstances in which His path took him would bring Him to His end on earth, the mover of all these things was Himself and the will of the Father. "I have power to take my life and I have power to lay down my life. I lay down my life for the sheep."<br />
# Jesus saw that in His death there would be a way for people to be brought back to the God from whom they were alienated and lost because of their sins. This would involve a substitution of Himself to effect that way. "For the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and give His life as a ransom for many." How this would take place was not new to the Jews of His day from their understanding of contemporary everyday practice of substitute payment - as in redemption of the first-born (Pidyon Ha Ben), or in the understanding of what aggadic stories such as the Binding of [[Isaac]] implied (see [[Midrash]]), but it was not the prevalent view that the Messiah was to be that payment. Though while alive on earth, he had hinted at it in sayings such as "unless a seed falls and dies, it remains alone, but when it dies, it brings forth..", it was only after He had risen from the dead that He explained Scripture (the Old Testament) clearly about the necessity of His death to have taken place. The disciples would henceforth preach, and Peter among them, that the death of Jesus the Messiah and His resurrection was forplanned and for-ordained by God the Father, and foretold in the Scripture (Isaiah 53). And so, "The Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God".<br />
# It was the belief in Scripture, that in His death a way back to God was made possible for those that were near to God&mdash;the Jews. And a way back to God for those that were far away&mdash;the Gentiles. That is why the New Testament saw in the requirements of God for Israel a fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah. He was the perfect Israel, taken out of Egypt, to redeem Israel. And that is why the New Testament saw in Jesus, a deepness to the incarnation of the Son of God, deeper than just a Jew of His time of a certain tribe. He was the "Second Adam" to redeem the sons of Adam. This encompassing perspective had further implications. <br />
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Christians of all generations have looked to the perfect Atonement, and the hope for reconciliation, accomplished by Jesus on the cross, to provide the means of understanding the solution to the vexing problems of the mind and of life itself - How can I make reconciliation with my enemies, with even the members of my own family, of race with race and people with people?; Does His death for the sins of the world include those who only partially understand, for the baby aborted, the feeble minded, and severely retarded?; For those who have never heard of Jesus, never been "enlightened", distant and remote in place and time?; Does His death for the sins of the world also include a remedy for the ills that have come as a result of those sins&mdash;certain sicknesses, ills of the mind, body and the soul? Do they "hold" for today?; Does His death make good, turn to the better, show the way, effect the way, of the illnesses that have befallen the world, not only by sin, but simply by the circumstances of life, of degeneration, of compounded dysfunction? How does the fruit of His death bring in somehow the Kingdom "among us"? <br />
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The death of the Son of God on the cross has provided the solution for sin, and it still holds its sway over the imagination and aspirations for the people of our generation.<br />
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===Salvation===<br />
The Bible teaches that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). This is often interpreted to mean that everyone has displeased God and is now separated from him in a kind of alienation and enmity that results from the fundamental conflict between selfish human interests and God's interests (Romans 8:5-8; James 4:4).<br />
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However, Jesus offered a solution to this Biblical dilemma in that by repentance of sins and faith in him (Jesus), their sins would be forgiven. He said that "...the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." ([[Gospel of Mark|Mark]] 2:10) Jesus also said, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17, and "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men" (Mark 2:28)<br />
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Jesus Christ taught that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" ([[Gospel of John|John]] 3:3). Protestant Evangelical Christianity often use the terms "saved" and "born again" interchangeably. Other Christians, notably the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church use the phrase ''born again'' as a synonym for [[baptism|baptized]]. "Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)<br />
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Christians are expected to continue living by Christ's teachings (John 8:31), as is appropriate for "children of Light" (Ephesians 5:8-10). Some believe that this is necessary in order to stay saved. However, this is a common misconception of the text. It is rather referring to proving that one is a child of God by their "fruit" (things that they do and how they behave). Christians in the Reformed tradition (following the teaching of the 16th century French lawyer [[John Calvin]], as well as the faith outlined in the Belgic and Heidleberg Confessions) say that salvation is irrevocable and that it cannot be lost, if it were genuinely part of one's life to begin with. Reformed Christians (often called [[Calvinists]]) often point to Romans 8:38-39 as validation of their belief: "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39; [[NASB]]). According to Calvinists, the reason it cannot be lost by natural things is because salvation was obtained through a supernatural being, namely Jesus Christ. This does not negate Jesus' human side, only that he was both one-hundred percent God and one-hundred percent man, according to the [[Council of Chalcedon]] (A. D. 451). The Bible also makes it clear that mankind cannot earn their salvation, and that it is a free gift.<br />
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== Resurrection of Jesus Christ ==<br />
The [[Resurrection of Jesus Christ|resurrection of Jesus Christ]] is critical to the Christian faith. The Apostle Paul wrote, "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain" (I Cor:15:14). Traditionally, Christianity has believed in a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.<ref>http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0056a.txt</ref> <br />
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In recent history Gary Habermas is considered the foremost [[Christian apologetics|Christian apologist]] for defending the resurrection of Jesus.<ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/dialog_rexperience/dialog_rexperiences.htm Experiences of the Risen Jesus: The Foundational Historical Issue in the Early Proclamation of the Resurrection], ''Dialog: A Journal of Theology'', Vol. 45; No. 3 (Fall, 2006), pp. 288-297.</ref><ref>"Wildcat" and Holding, J.P., [http://www.tektonics.org/books/lichabrvw.html Book review of "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus"], 22nd June, 2004 (Tektonics)</ref><ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/NTeSources/NTArticles/CTR-NT/Habermas-Resurrection1-CTR.pdf Jesus' Resurrection and Contemporary Criticism: An Apologetic] ''Criswell Theological Review'' 4.1 (1989) 159-74.</ref><ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/crj_explainingaway/crj_explainingaway.htm Explaining Away Jesus' Resurrection:<br />
The Recent Revival of Hallucination Theories], Christian Research Journal / vol. 23, no. 4, 2001.</ref><ref>Habermas, Gary, [http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html Why I Believe The New Testament Is Historically Reliable] (Apologetics.com)</ref><br />
Other notable defenders of the resurrection include: [[William Lane Craig]],<ref>Craig, William Lane, [http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/historical.html Articles: Historical Jesus]</ref> [[Lee Strobel]], [[Josh McDowell]],<ref>McDowell, Josh, [http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html Evidence for the Resurrection], 1992.</ref> [[Edwin M. Yamauchi]],<ref>Jamauchi, Edwin M., [http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?]</ref> [[N.T. Wright]]<ref>Wright, N.T., [http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Early_Traditions.htm Early Traditions and the Origins of Christianity], ''Sewanee Theological Review'' 41.2, 1998.</ref> and [[Michael Horner]].<ref>Horner, Michael, [http://www.michaelhorner.com/articles/resurrection/index.html Did Jesus Really Rise from the Dead?]</ref><br />
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===The Meaning of the Resurrection for Christians===<br />
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The Fact of the Resurrection of Christ is a key element of the preaching of the message about Jesus and an essential of Christian belief. But there are also certain effects that this belief has on the lives of believers.<br />
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1. It is because Jesus rose from the dead, that believers now can resort to a living Savior to help and deliver them from sin and from situations overwhelming for them by their own powers.<br />
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2. The New Testament sees in the resurrection of Christ a certain vindication of what apparently to the world and to all beings was a failure and an overcoming of Him by His crucifixion. He was "declared to be the Son of God" by His resurrection. This brings believers in Him to a strong confidence in the determined power of God to both vindicate in their own lives and to bring His reign upon earth. <br />
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3. The coming of Jesus back to life means to the believer that, indeed, their sins are totally forgiven. This is because believers know that His death was as a payment for sins - a "wage of death" for our sins that He received in our stead. If He remained dead, believers would know that the wage had not been fully paid. His resurrection, carries with it our knowledge that our sin with its attendant death has been totally and finally paid for. <br />
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4. It is a now living Savior that Christians know can go before them, can closely lead them through life - as He did when He was on earth. This makes following Him practical and real. <br />
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5. The New Testament reveals that it is the Risen Christ who received from the Father the Holy Spirit and He, through Himself ascended to the Father, has given the Holy Spirit to us. This gives the believer in Christ both the knowledge and the power to live a godly life, and live a life that can be an intimately and personally directed one.<br />
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6. The resurrected Christ was no mere reassembling of the molecules and particles of the Body that had been crucified. It was, indeed, a physical body, but one that was fully under the Spirit's control, guidance, and empowerment. It was a "spiritual body". Christians know that likewise, they will one day be granted the nature of a spiritual body, and full of health. They therefore are full of hope and consolations, and consider that even now in this life, there is an overcoming through Him, a restoration, and that tears, even now, are wiped away.<br />
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== Evangelism ==<br />
In what is called the [[Great Commission]], Jesus sent his disciples out into the world to preach the Gospel (literally "good news") and make disciples.<br />
:'''Great Commission'''<br />
:''But the eleven disciples proceeded to [[Galilee]], to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in [[heaven]] and on [[earth]]." Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the [[#God the Father|Father]] and the [[#God the Son|Son]] and the [[#God the Holy Spirit|Holy Spirit]], teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."'' --[[Gospel of Matthew|Matthew]] 28:16-20 [[New American Standard Bible|NASB]]<br />
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It should be noted, however, that Jesus said it was the Holy Spirit, not man, who was sent to convict the world concerning sin and righteousness (John 16:8). This relieves Christians of needing to worry when they evangelize. God is the one who gets the credit with the growth and maturity of the Church: "So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth" (1 Corinthians 3:7).<br />
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==See also==<br />
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'''Denominations or branches of Christianity'''<br />
*[[Roman Catholic Church]]<br />
*[[Orthodox Church]]<br />
*[[Protestantism|Protestant]]<br />
**[[Amish]]<br />
**[[Baptist]]<br />
**[[Church of England]] or ''Anglican Church''<br />
**[[Episcopal Church in the United States of America]] (or ''Episcopal Church'' or ''Episcopalians'') (Non-UK branch of the Anglican Church)<br />
**[[Evangelical Christianity]]<br />
**[[Fundamentalism]]<br />
**[[Liberal Christianity]]<br />
**[[Lutheran]]<br />
**[[Mennonite]]<br />
**[[Methodist]]<br />
**[[Pentecostal]]<br />
**[[Plymouth Brethren]]<br />
**[[Presbyterian]]<br />
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'''Disputed'''<br />
*[[Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]]<br />
*[[Christian Science]]<br />
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'''Other articles'''<br />
*[[Cathedral]]<br />
*[[Catholicism]]<br />
*[[Christian apologetics]] (Defense of Christianity)<br />
*[[Christianity and Science]]<br />
*[[Church]]<br />
*[[Conservative Christianity]]<br />
*[[Eucharist]]<br />
*[[Judaism]]<br />
*[[New Testament understanding through the Jewish perspective]]<br />
*[[Passover Seder]]<br />
*[[Persecution of Christians]]<br />
*[[Red-letter Christian]]<br />
*[[Sign of the Cross]]<br />
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==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
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==External Links==<br />
*[http://www.aim.org/wls/category/christians/ What Liberals Say - Category: Christians], [[Accuracy In Media]]<br />
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[[Category:Christianity]]<br />
[[Category:Worldviews]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Hinduism&diff=507517Hinduism2008-08-30T21:03:19Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>[[Image:Hinduism.jpg|left|Hinduism]]<br />
'''Hinduism''' is the fourth largest religion in the world and is the oldest among major [[falsehood|false]] religions.<ref>The largest being [[Christianity]], [[Islam]], Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist, and Hinduism, in that order[http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html]</ref> Historians believe that it originated more than 5000 years ago.<ref>[http://hinduism.about.com/od/hinduism101/a/origin.htm Origin of Hinduism] (About.com)</ref> Hinduism is the first [[Dharmic religion]]. It can be called "the religion of India;" about 800 million of the world's billion Hindus live in India, so about 80 percent of Hindus are Indians.<ref>[http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Brief_analysis.pdf Census of India, religion data, brief analysis (PDF)]; "At the national level, of 1028 million population, 828 million (80.5 percent) have returned their religion as Hindus followed by 138 million (13.4 percent) as Muslims and 24 millions (2.3 percent) Christians. 19 million (1.9 percent) persons follow Sikh religion; 8 million (0.8 percent) are Buddhists and 4.2 million (0.4 percent) are Jains as per the 2001 Census. In addition to these, 6.6 million belong to ‘Other Religions and Persuasions’ including tribal religions which are not part of the six main religions stated above. About seven lakh (or 0.7 million) persons have not stated their religion."</ref><br />
According to a recent American survey, Hindus are the best educated and among the richest religious groups in the [[United States]].<ref>Hanerjee, Neela, [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/us/25cnd-religion.html?ei=5124&en=1f44cce06fd2c02a&ex=1361682000&adxnnl=1&partner=digg&exprod=digg&adxnnlx=1204020358-3HkVoV4zxeYh9vTOw6Tydw Americans Change Faiths at Rising Rate, Report Finds], New York Times, 25th February, 2008.</ref><br />
[[Image:Hinduism..jpg|240px|right|Shiva the Cosmic Dancer]]<br />
Hindus believe in [[reincarnation]] and eventual unity with what is known as [[Brahman]] as well as respect for all life forms. Their holy writings are known as the [[Vedas]]. The goal of Hindus in life (purusharthas) is to follow four life-long aims: dharma (righteousness), artha (material success), kama (love/pleasure), and moksha (release from reincarnation/reunification with Brahman).<br />
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== Description ==<br />
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In 1966, the Supreme Court of [[India]] defined what Hinduism is for legal purposes: <br />
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1. Belief in the authority of the Vedas (an ancient hymns to the gods, written in Sanskrit). The oldest collection of hymns in the Vedas is the Rig Veda, which was written between 1800 and 1300 B.C. The greatest Veda hymn is the “Bhagavat Gita,” a section in the Mahabharata concerning life’s never-ending spiritual journey towards perfection. Bhagavat Geeta is rendered as a dialogue between Shri [[Krishna]] (incarnation of [[Vishnu]]) and Arjuna (the great archer) in the middle of the battlefield.<br />
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2. Spirit of tolerance and willingness to understand and respect an opponent’s view. <br />
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3. Belief in world rhythms: long periods of creation, maintenance and dissolution follow each other in endless succession. <br />
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4. Belief in reincarnation (rebirth) and preexistence. <br />
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5. Belief that there are many ways to salvation. <br />
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6. Unlike most other religions, Hinduism is not defined by a specific set of philosophical concepts. <br />
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7. Belief in one god. Contrary to popular belief, Hinduism is not a [[polytheism|polytheistic]] religion. The Vedas, the primary Hindu holy scriptures states that there is only one [[God]] but can manifest in many forms. This is the reason why there are many deities. A common example used to explain this is that an individual can be called different names depending on the relationship has with another. A man can be a son to his parents, a nephew to his uncle, a father to his son, and a husband to his wife all at the same time. None of these different relationships suggest multiple people but rather different aspects of one person. The same is applied to God in Hinduism, which has no form and is infinite. Hindus may call God, Paratman (Supreme Soul), Brahmana (Eternal Spirit), or Ishvara (Supreme Lord). Deities have various names but represent aspects of God that manifest in the world. For example [[Agni]] (fire, Divine spark), Vayu (wind, or breath which could mean life force, [[Indra]] (in mythology king of gods but also refers to the senses such as vision, hearing, touch, taste), and [[Lakshmi]] (fortune).<br />
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8. Secular multiplicity and accommodating flexibility in spiritual practices.<br />
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Relations between Hinduism and Christianity have also been shaped by unequal balances of political power and cultural influence. Although communities of Christians have lived in South India since the middle of the 1st millennium, the great expansion of Indian Christianity followed the efforts of missionaries working under the protection of the British colonial government. <ref> [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-261549/Hinduism Hinduism and Christianity] Encyclopædia Britannica. </ref><br />
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Some state governments such as Gujrat, Madhya Pradesh have passed anti-conversion laws, attempting to prevent Hindus converting to other religions such as [[Islam]] and [[Christianity]].<ref>[http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24470.htm India: International Religious Freedom Report 2003] (U.S. Department of State)</ref><br />
<br />
For more on Hinduism, see [[World History Lecture Three]].<br />
<br />
==Criticisms==<br />
===Sati===<br />
''Sati'' was a practice during the medieval period whereby Hindu widows were forcefully burned to death by family members of the husband. This practice was abolished in the 19th century by the efforts of Ram Mohan Roy and Lord William Bentinck.<br />
<br />
===Caste system===<br />
Another criticism of Hinduism is its caste or ''varna'' system. Traditionally Hindu society is divided into four castes:<br />
*''Brahmin'' (the highest caste in Hinduism)<br />
*''Kshatriya'' (the warrior or ruling class)<br />
*''Vaishya'' (merchants)<br />
*''Shudra'' (unskilled laborers and servants)<br />
<br />
''Shudras'' were the lowest caste and were denied of many rights in past. Apart from these four main castes, there is another group called the ''Dalit'' (Untouchables).<ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/living/caste.shtml The caste system] ''BBC''</ref> Historically these ''dalits'' are the victims of discrimination by higher castes. Even today there are many reports of discrimination against ''dalits''.<ref>[http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1954/44/ Dalits face discrimination in southern Tamil Nadu] ''All India Christian Council''</ref><ref>[http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/13/india15303.htm India: ‘Hidden Apartheid’ of Discrimination Against Dalits] ''[[Human Rights Watch]]''</ref><br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
<br />
*[http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Hinduism-Hindu.htm Hindu Religion]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Hinduism| ]]<br />
[[Category:Dharmic Religions]]<br />
[[Category:India]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Buddhism&diff=507516Buddhism2008-08-30T21:01:27Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:China B.jpg|right]]<br />
'''Buddhism''' is classified as the fifth largest religion in the world. It is a [[falsehood|false]] belief system which teaches that desire causes suffering and if desire is eliminated, enlightenment and [[Nirvana]] are attained. Buddhism is a [[Dharmic religion]] and is often viewed as a philosophy more than a religion because gods are not necessary or primary in Buddhist thought. Much of modern Buddhism is atheistic or agnostic in practice. The term Buddha means "the enlightened one." <br />
<br />
==Founder==<br />
<br />
Buddhism was founded by an [[India|Indian]] prince, [[Siddhartha Gautama]], who, after being sheltered from coming into contact with suffering due to disease, poverty and death until adulthood, finally observed the suffering of his people during his first walk outside the palace grounds. After that he worked to discover the reason for suffering and pain. He studied a number of the disciplines of the day, seeking ultimate truth. After finding other approaches to understanding lacking, he went into meditation for 49 days, vowing not to move until he had attained enlightenment. After great personal struggle he achieved enlightenment, and began to teach the principles that are now associated with Buddhism.<br />
<br />
The philosophy has its roots in [[Hinduism]] and Vedic religion, to which Gautama belonged until the foundation of Buddhism.<br />
<br />
==View of God==<br />
<br />
Some Buddhist scriptures and some sects, like the Mahayana school, acknowledge that gods exist,<ref>[http://wri.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/buddhism.html Buddhism]</ref><ref>[http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/budgod.html Do Buddhists Believe in God?]</ref> but do not consider that knowledge crucial to an individual's practice of Buddhist teachings. The Buddha taught that we should not speculate about what we cannot know, and that speculation about [[God]] is pointless. Buddhists' priorities are release from suffering (by learning to cease striving after objects of desire and avoiding objects of discomfort) and direct experience of the true nature of reality. Many modern strains of Buddhism are [[atheist|atheistic]] in nature, thus creating a paradox as to why they are called a religion. They can be considered to be philosophies of life. Certain denominations, such as the Mahayana tradition, believe in [[Bodhisattvas]], or quasi-divine cosmic beings that seek to benefit others by remaining in a state of [[Samsara]], or eternal rebirth. These are prayed to, for advice and spiritual guidance, and often venerated.<br />
<br />
==Teachings==<br />
<br />
The highest ideal for a Buddhist is the state of Nirvana, or release from eternal rebirth, a state beyond conceptual thought. This descibes a state that is achieved through meditation and practice that is beyond the categories and conditioning that are a result of our education, experiences and the limitations of language. This state has been described by the Buddha as follows: <br />
<blockquote>''"There is O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, o monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. ~ Udana, 80-81"''</blockquote><br />
<br />
Adherents claim that Buddhism is a very practical [[philosophy]], which teaches us to focus our attention on personal experience, to determine what is the cause of our discontents ("dukkha") and to find a way to liberate ourselves from these, all the while expressing "metta", which is universal, unconditional love, and "karuna", which roughly translates to "compassion", towards others. These teachings are encapsulated in the [[Four Noble Truths]].<ref>[http://www.parami.org/buddhistanswers/four_noble_truths.htm Four Noble Truths]</ref><br />
<br />
<br />
Buddhism is commonly held to be a relatively peaceful religion, due to its less "absolutist" view of morality and the fluid nature of thought that encouraged not just acceptance of other faiths and ideas, but also examination of those ideas and, if necessary, applying them to ones life. This also allows people to follow Buddhism as a philosophy, and Islam, Judaism or Christianity as a faith, without contradicting any principles of either following.<ref>http://buddhism.about.com/</ref><br />
<br />
It should be noted that the ideals of tolerance and introspection among the Buddhist faithful were often ignored by the leaders of Buddhist nations (much like the leaders of most other nations often disobeyed their own religions fundamental laws in the in the interest of what was practical) <ref>http://buddhism.about.com/</ref> and persecution of Christians in predominantly Buddhist nations does occur today.<ref>http://www.persecution.org/whitepapers/vietnam-2002-03.html</ref><ref>http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/new-evidence-of-religious-persecution-in-vietnam-despite-release-prisoner/</ref><ref>http://persecution.org/Countries/laos.html</ref> It is important to note that only around 55% of Vietnam is Buddhist (see below), and that Buddhist monks took an active role in protesting the the corrupt Diem regime and the Vietnam War.<br />
<br />
==Buddhism in Antiquity==<br />
<br />
Buddhism has been an important part of the culture in many eastern countries, such as [[Cambodia]], [[Thailand]], and [[India]]. It has endured active persecution when conflicting with older beliefs such as [[Hinduism]], and led in many countries to the rise of Buddhist warrior-dissidents, as well as such interesting anomalies as ''shinshi'' (transliterated from the Khmer), a form of torture wherein strips of flesh are removed slowly from the forehead. <ref>Schlesinger, Robert. ''Schlesinger's History of the East'', 2nd ed. New York: Camport & Sons, 1986.</ref><br />
<br />
==Buddhism Today==<br />
[[Image:Nara.jpg|thumb|Great Buddha at [[Nara]]]]<br />
Buddhism is currently the majority religion in the following states:<br />
<br />
Country Percent <br />
<br />
Thailand 95% <br />
<br />
Cambodia 90 <br />
<br />
Myanmar 88 <br />
<br />
Bhutan 75 <br />
<br />
Sri Lanka 70 <br />
<br />
Tibet * 65 <br />
<br />
Laos 60 <br />
<br />
Vietnam 55 <br />
<br />
Japan ** 50 <br />
<br />
<nowiki>*</nowiki> [[China]]: Buddhism is most widely practiced, with an estimated 100 million adherents. <br />
<br />
<nowiki>*</nowiki> Tibet is an estimate, as there has never been a reliable survey. Furthermore, it is debatable whether Tibet should be considered an independent nation.<br />
<br />
<nowiki>**</nowiki> [[Japan]] is an "odd" case, as surveys of adherence are conducted rather differently. Firstly it is debatable at what point various Japanese beliefs shift from being traditions to being religions. This is indicated by the fact that "85% of Japanese claim Buddhism as their preferred religion", yet "75% percent claim to practice and believe in no religion" -a more accurate estimate may be 20%.<br />
<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_buddhist.html The Largest Buddhist Communities]</ref><br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Obon.jpg|thumb|Obon remains one of the most important Buddhist observances]]<br />
<br />
<blockquote><br />
The Obon Festival is one of Japan’s oldest Buddhist celebrations; it marks the time that it’s believed the spirits of dead ancestors return to the Earth. The gathering included the Bon Odori dance, which remembers Japanese ancestors by imitating motions of picking cherries and mining coal. [http://www.culturesdiary.com/]<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
<br />
*[[Kamakura]]<br />
*[[Nara]]<br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
*[http://wri.leaderu.com/wri-table2/buddhism.html#intro Buddhism]<br />
*[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ Access to Insight: Readings in Theravada Buddhism]<br />
*[http://www.kalachakranet.org/buddhism/history_japanese_buddhism.htm History of Japanese Buddhism]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<br />
<References/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Buddhism| ]]<br />
[[Category:Dharmic Religions]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Islam&diff=507515Islam2008-08-30T21:00:26Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Islam''' is a [[Falsehood|false]] [[monotheism|monotheistic]] [[Abrahamic religion]] based on the teachings of [[Muhammad]], a seventh century [[Arab]] religious and [[politics|political]] figure. The word "Islam" means "submission [to Allah]" in [[Arabic language|Arabic]]. <br />
<br />
A follower of Islam is called a Muslim or Moslem, a term which means "one who submits (to God)". The older term [[Mohammedan]] means "follower of Muhammad", and has been used for centuries. Muslims do not use it today to avoid confusing worship of [[Muhammad]] with worship of [[Allah]]<ref>Schimmel, Annemarie. ''Islam: An Introduction''. State University of New York Press, 1992.</ref>. Muslims follow the teaching of Muhammad, whom they believe to be [[God]]'s last and greatest [[prophet]]. The faith teaches that the [[Archangel]] [[Gabriel]] appeared to him.<br />
<br />
Muslims believe that God ("Allah", '''الله''' in [[Arabic]]) revealed the [[Qur'an]] (or Koran) to Muhammad and, despite his illiteracy, caused him to transcribe it <ref>Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not.(Surah 96:1-5)</ref>. The [[Qur'an]] is considered to be the pure and [[holy]] word of God. Like [[Christianity]] and [[Judaism]], Islam originated in the [[Middle East]]. Islam claims to trace its roots back to [[Abraham]]. Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was the founder of Islam, rather that he restored the original faith of Abraham and the prophets, which had been corrupted and/or misinterpreted over time. Based upon this belief, [[the Bible]], [[Old Testament|Old]] and [[New Testament]], is believed to have become corrupted as well. <br />
<br />
[[Image:Mecca.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mecca]], the Islamic holy city.]]<br />
Islam is the second largest religion in the world, with over 1.4 billion followers, the number of Muslims is rapidly growing, mainly due to high birth rates in Muslim countries. Both Christian and Muslim sources agree that conversions to Christianity outnumber those to Islam.<ref>[http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm World Christian Encyclopedia]</ref><br />
<ref>[http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php Translation of AL-Jazeerah interview between Maher Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani]</ref><br />
<br />
==Historical Background==<br />
According to Islamic belief, in 610 A.D., [[Muhammad]], a 40-year-old merchant of the Quraysh tribe in [[Mecca]], in the Arabian desert (now eastern [[Saudi Arabia]]), was commanded by the angel [[Gabriel]] to "recite" the message of [[Allah]] (Arabic for God). Gabriel said mankind had lost sight of Allah's previous messages to earlier prophets, [[Adam]], [[Noah]], [[Abraham]], [[Moses]], [[Solomon]], and [[Jesus]], among others, and that Muhammad was to spread Allah's message to all people so that mankind would know how to live, how to show respect for Allah, and how to prepare for the judgement day. The message to Muhammad was to be God's last; Muhammad was the "seal of the prophets." Muhammad won some converts to Islam in his local area, but his [[monotheist]] preaching threatened to undermine the profitable [[polytheist]] pilgrim traffic supporting many Meccan merchants. In 622 A.D., the merchants drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca to the city of Yathrib (later renamed [[Medina]], or city - as in the city of the prophet). This flight (hijra) from Mecca to Medina marks the beginning of the Muslim lunar calendar, and is celebrated each year in the hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad's forces starting attacking the trade carvans going in and out of Mecca, cutting off its economic lifeline. After a series of battles between the Meccans and Muhammad's forces, Mecca finally accepted Muhammad's ultimatum to succumb and convert to Islam. The city welcomed the prophet back in 630. Muhammad died in 632. Tribal elders elected [[Abu Bakr]] to be Muhammad's successor, or [[Caliph]] (Khalifa). Abu Bakr united the tribes of the Arabian peninsula during his two years as head of the new faith. Upon his death, the elders elected [[Umar ibn al-Khattab]] the next Caliph. During Umar's ten year reign, Islam invaded and spread through the sword into [[Egypt]], [[Syria]], [[Palestine]], [[Iraq]], and parts of [[Iran]]. Umar was assassinated by a Persian (modern day Iran) in 644, and was succeeded by [[Uthman ibn Affan]], who continued the invasions to spread Islam into [[North Africa]], [[Cyprus]], the rest of Iran, [[Afghanistan]], and parts of [[India]] and [[Pakistan]]. Over the next two centuries, Islamic armies continued to expanded Islam's empire into sub-Saharan Africa, [[Spain]], Southeast and Central Asia, and [[Turkey]].<br />
<br />
==Divisions Within Islam==<br />
Uthman was assassinated in 656 A.D. by soldiers who then installed Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, as Caliph. Ali's followers believed Muhammad had chosen Ali to be Muhammad's heir, and had disagreed with the selections of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman as Caliphs. Ali's claim to the position was challenged by Muawiyah, a kinsman of the murdered Uthman. Five years later, Ali was assassinated by Kharjites, religious dissidents who broke away from the main body of Muslims because they rejected Ali's accepting arbitration to resolve his leadership dispute with Muawiyah. Ali's supporters, or the Shiah al-Ali (or Shiat Ali, partisans of Ali) believed that Ali was the true Caliph and was, in part, divinely inspired. Ali's sons, Hassan and Husayn followed as Shia Caliphs, Hassan dying in 669 or 670 A.D., possibly by poisoning, and Husayn slain by soldiers of his rival, the Sunni Caliph Yazid, in 680 A.D. <br />
<br />
The Shia Muslim community has divided further as followers coalesced around several of Ali's descendants or successors, called Imams. The "twelvers," predominant in Iran, believe the twelfth Imam is in hiding and will reveal himself just before judgement day. Ismailis rejected the seventh Imam and practice a spirituality that seeks hidden meaning in scripture. Ismailis ruled much of North Africa as the Fatimid dynasty of Egypt in the tenth through the twelfth centuries, and today are found primarily in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India. The Sunni majority reject the premise that men can be divine, including Muhammad, Ali, or Jesus, and did not accept any of the Imams who followed Ali. Sunnis remain more committed to traditions and less inclined to accept Shia mysticism. Today, about 15% of the world's one billion Muslims are Shia and 85% are orthodox Sunni. <br />
<br />
There are other factions within Islam. Sufis, a name apparently taken from the wool garments they wear, developed around mystical practices and trance-induced revelations. Sufis are found today in Turkey, Syria, and parts of Africa. Other movements have taken reform tracks, such as the Unitarians of Saudi Arabia, also called Wahhabis after their 18th century reformist founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The conservative Wahhabis are found today in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Some critics would argue that the Taliban of Afghanistan took conservative reform to an extreme. Other sects or break-away groups include, among others, the Alawis found in Syria and Turkey, the Druze in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, the Ibadhis (Kharjites) in Oman and Africa, the Ahmadiya of Pakistan, and the Zaydis of Yemen. <br />
<br />
==Religious Guidance==<br />
During his lifetime, Muhammad's companions memorized and later transcribed the verses (surrahs) of the Quran as they had been dictated to Muhammad. The Caliph Uthman collected and codified the various versions of the surrahs into one written Quran that became the standard Arabic text used by the world's Muslims today. Present-day Muslims look first to the Quran as a guide to life, then to the Sunnah, or the way of the Prophet (his life as an example for others) as recorded by his early companions, and then to the Hadith, a collection of the Prophet's sayings, comments, advice, and descriptions. Frequently, Muslims disagreed over how to interpret certain passages in the Quran, the Sunnah, or the Hadith in their search for the ideal life and perfect path to heaven. From these interpretations Sunni Muslims developed four schools of law, or interpretations of law, named after their founders or early leaders: the Hanbali, considered the most strict school and predominant today in Saudi Arabia; Shafi, the school of widest acceptance, found in Egypt, parts of Palestine-Syria, south Arabia, and the Far East; Maliki, prevalent in North Africa, Sudan, and Nigeria; and Hanafi, considered the most moderate school, predominant in Ottoman Turkey and today found primarily on the Levant and Indian subcontinent. Frequently, Muslim countries have two separate legal systems, one for civil, criminal, or commercial law, and a second, and separate, system for religious law. Religious courts and their judges (qadis) might handle issues dealing with marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, religious education, charitable or religious property (Waqf), or family matters. Among Middle Eastern countries, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Amirates, and Yemen have Shariah courts serving alongside their secular courts or have adopted Shariah (Islamic law) as the basis of their legal systems.<br />
<br />
====Clergy====<br />
Sunni Islam does not have a priesthood or clerical hierarchy to conduct religious services or interpret scripture, but it does have prayer leaders, called Imams, and religious scholars, called Ulama, who often are educated men familiar with the Quran and able to offer commentaries on Quranic verses. Sunni Muslims also respect the teachings and interpretations of scholars, judges, and academics who may interpret laws, write treatises on Sharia (religious law) or Hadith, and issue Fatwas, religious declarations intended to enlighten or guide Muslims. <br />
<br />
Shia Islam has a hierarchy that resembles a priesthood. Mullahs are prayer leaders, but usually do not interpret religious law. Mujtahids are religious scholars who may interpret law or passages from the Quran or Hadith. The lower order of Mujtahids are called Hojjatolislam. Ayat Allah (literally sign of God, also Ayatollah) is a higher order of Mujtahid who may issue Fatwas, or religious edicts, in addition to leading Islamic schools, interpreting religious law and the Quran, and offering sermons or discourses on proper Islamic behavior. <br />
<br />
===Five Pillars of Islam===<br />
*'''Shahadah (Profession of Faith)''' -The Shahadah is the Muslim profession of faith. 'ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh, a loose English translation reads "''There is none worthy of worship except God, and [[Muhammad]] is the messenger of God''" This testament can be seen as the foundation of all of the other tenets of Islam. <br />
<br />
*'''Salat (Ritual Prayer)''' -All Muslims are required to Pray to God five times each day while facing [[Mecca]]. <br />
<br />
*'''Zakat (Charity)''' Able Muslims must donate to the poor based on the wealth one has accumulated. In current usage it is interpreted as 2.5% of the value of most valuables and savings held for a full [[lunar year]]. <br />
<br />
*'''Sawm (Fasting)''' All able-bodied Muslims (children, the elderly, and the ill are exempt) must fast during daylight hours during the daylight hours of the entire month of [[Ramadan]]. According to Muslims, this purifies the body and soul. Some Muslim sects allow military, police and emergency services personnel to receive an exemption from fasting from an imam, on the grounds that their work supports the community or national good.<br />
<br />
*'''Hajj (Pilgrimage)''' All able-bodied Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.<br />
<br />
==Other Aspects of Islam==<br />
[[Image:Quran.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Pages from the Qur'an, the holy book of the Islamic religion.]]<br />
====Jihad====<br />
Jihad is the "effort" or "struggle" each Muslim faces in the everyday trials of life, such as the effort to get better grades in school, or the striving to achieve better results from a job, or the struggle to avoid sinful temptations. Jihad also can be applied to warfare; participating in jihad in Allah's cause was the third most important good deed listed in the Hadith, after prayer and honoring one's parents. Jihad often was a rallying cry for the military spread of Islam in the seventh through tenth centuries against non-Muslims.<br />
<br />
====Osama bin Laden and Fundamentalists====<br />
[[Osama bin Laden]], a follower of a particular brand of Islam popular in Saudi Arabia, has stated that Islam is at war with the United States and its allies. Some observers maintain that the number of Muslims who believe as bin Laden does is growing, and others go further to suggest that all "fundamentalist" Muslims are enemies of the West. But other observers differentiate between conservative "fundamentalists" and the "extremists" who follow bin Laden or other terrorists. These observers suggest that the fundamentalists disagree with bin Laden as much as do Westerners. It is hard to know the truth. Many westerners are still haunted by the images of cheering crowds dancing in the streets when the 9/11 attacks were announced and were disappointed at the lack of prominent condemnation of the attack from Islamic circles worldwide.<br />
<br />
====People of the Book====<br />
Christians and Jews are called "people of the Book" in the Koran and are considered earlier forerunners to Islam and viewed as brothers as long as they pay an extra tax when under Islamic rule. Islam, tracing its roots back to Abraham through his son Ishmael instead of Isaac as the Jews did, believes that they are the descendants of God's promise. Islam believes that both the Old and New Testament were corrupted and corrected by the Koran, but there is still an earlier link between the three religions. The view of Jews and Christians varied within different parts of the Koran and Islamic history. Much of current Islamic culture, even in places that were once very tolerant such as Egypt, has seen an upsurge in persecution and violence against Christians and Jews.<br />
<br />
====Women in Islam====<br />
For the most part, the Quran treats men and [[woman|women]] equally, applies the same injunctions and prohibitions to men and women, and grants many of the same privileges and benefits. But women are treated separately in certain instances. For example, women are required to "... draw their outer garments around them ... that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed (by men)." (Quran 33:59) Covering the head and body in public (hijab) is viewed by many Muslim women as a protection of their modesty, a way to discourage men's covetous eyes. The principle of hijab is applied in different ways: a small scarf around the head and regular "street clothes" may be voluntary and acceptable in Cairo or Damascus but a full length opaque "Burqa" was enforced in Taliban Afghanistan. The treatment of women may depend upon rural or urban settings, educational level, society norms, tradition, or other factors. As of 2008, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are the only two Middle Eastern countries where the government requires women to wear some form of modest garb.<br />
<br />
Islamic dress is a regular grounds for conflict in multicultural education.<br />
<br />
Treatment of women varies widely by country. In the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia women are forbidden from driving a car, traveling in public without their husband or a male family member as an escort, leaving their home without wearing Islamic dress, working or voting. Though not formally forbidden from owning property, they have no way of obtaining this as work is forbidden and only males are permitted to inherit - should a man die, his brothers, sons and father will all inherit before his wife. These restrictions are part of the criminal law of the country, and enforced by the police and a special Islamic office. Pakistan has similar restrictions, but to a lesser extent. In contrast, Turkey has a majority muslim population yet still grants women rights near-equal to those of men inclusing property ownership, employment, and education to university level.<br />
<br />
Muslim apologists suggest the extremally repressive policies of countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cultural rather than religious, and point to the more moderate Islam practiced in Turkey as a demonstration that Islam and womens' rights are compatable, and point to past Christian-dominated cultures such as medieval Europe as examples that other religions can be distorted to justify oppression.<br />
<br />
Muslim women's status is controversial. Some critics claim that Muslim men oppress Muslim women by compelling them to remain hidden behind the veil, sequestered in the home, and ignorant of the world by denying them access to education and worldly opportunities. Defenders of some practices suggest that many of them, such as the veil, are cultural traditions that pre-date Islam and are intended to protect, not constrict, women, or that many Muslim women adopt the life style of the veil voluntarily. There are Muslim women who agree and disagree with the critics.<br />
<br />
====Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem====<br />
Muhammad's home city of Mecca was the site of his earliest preaching and conversions, and is the location of the Kaaba, traditionally held to be the foundation stone of the first mosque built by Adam and later restored by Abraham, and now the focus of the annual pilgrimage (hajj). Some historians suggest that the Kaaba, a black stone probably meteoric in origin, was venerated by pre-Islamic polytheistic religions. <br />
<br />
At first, Jerusalem was Islam's holy city and the focus of prayers, but Mecca became the center of Islam after Muhammad's return in 630. Medina, because of its early association with Muhammad and as the site of Muhammad's tomb, is second in importance to Mecca. Jerusalem is revered by Muslims as the site of Solomon's temple, Abraham's near sacrifice of his son Ismail, and the scene of Muhammad's miraculous midnight journey, the latter two now enshrined in the Dome of the Rock mosque. According to the Quran (Surrah 17:1, Isra) and Hadith, Muhammad and Gabriel were taken on winged mules from Mecca to Jerusalem, where they ascended through the seven heavens to the presence of Allah. During the visit, Muhammad learned, among other points, that Muslims were to pray five times each day and to honor Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets. <br />
<br />
====Restrictions====<br />
Observant Muslims are not supposed to eat pork and in general do not have dogs as pets; both swine and canines are considered unclean. Muslims are proscribed from drinking alcoholic beverages. Observant Muslims do not collect or pay interest. <br />
<br />
====Non-Muslim Practices====<br />
Some practices have been associated with Islam because they occur in Islamic countries, but actually are not a part of Islam. For example, female circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, but is mentioned in Hadith as an "honorable" but not obligatory condition. It is a pre-Islamic tradition in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab world, notably in Eritrea, Yemen, and Egypt. Another example of a practice that has been associated incorrectly with Islam is honor killing, in which a brother, father, or uncle "restores" or "defends" a family's honor by killing the sister, daughter, or niece that dishonored the family through unmarried pregnancy or promiscuous behavior. The "honor killing" is more ancient and possibly tribal in origin.<br />
<br />
==Islam and Christianity==<br />
While Muslims do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God or in the resurrection, they consider him to be one of God's most important prophets. However, the Qur'an warns against worshiping Jesus, Muhammad, and other humans for fear of [[idolatry]].<ref>[http://www.ccg.org/_domain/ccg.org/Islam/Islam.htm Christian Churches of God Articles on Islam], March 10, 2007</ref><br />
<br />
The Qur'an states that Christians will be punished, though the nature of the punishment is not specified: <br />
<br />
"Surely, disbelievers are those who said: <br />
'Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).' But there is no god but One, Allah. <br />
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.<br />
<br />
Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.<br />
<br />
The Messiah , son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (i.e. she believed in the words of God and His Books ). <br />
They both used to eat food (as any other human eat). <br />
Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)."<br />
<br />
Qur'an 5:73-75<br />
<br />
However, Islam does recognize Christians and Jews as "people of the book" since both refer to one God only, and recognize Abraham (Ibrahim in [[Arabic]]) as a founding prophet.<br />
<br />
==Islam and Paganism==<br />
<br />
Although Muslims profess belief in a single [[God]], some believe Islam has its roots in an earlier polytheistic system. By this thinking God is linked to an earlier moon deity, although it should be brought up that there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, where Allah is cited as the God of [[Abraham]].<ref>The Qur'an, Sura 37 [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Allamah-Nooruddin/dp/0963206702]</ref><ref>Abramahov, "Islamic Theology". Edinburgh University Press: Edinburgh, 1988. [http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Theology-Binyamin-Abrahamov/dp/0748611029/sr=8-4/qid=1172042917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-1837174-2630046?ie=UTF8&s=books]</ref> <br />
<br />
==Sharia==<br />
[[Image:StarCresent.png|thumb|right|220px|The Star and Crescent is a symbol of Islam. It is featured in the national flag of [[Algeria]], [[Azerbaijan]], [[Malaysia]], [[Tunisia]], [[Mauritania]], [[Pakistan]], and [[Turkey]].]]<br />
[[Sharia]] is the body of Islamic law. The term means "way" or "path"; it is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It is not actually part of the canonical Qur'an; that is to say, it is not believed to be the direct word of God by Muslims, but rather the interpretation of it.<br />
<br />
Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, marriage, divorce, and social issues. Some Islamic scholars accept Sharia as the body of precedent and legal theory established before the 19th century, while other scholars view Sharia as a changing body, and include Islamic legal theory from the contemporary period.{{fact}}<br />
<br />
==Ex-Muslims==<br />
[[Michelle Malkin]] highlights a group of Ex-Muslims hoping to change the terms of debate about Islam in Europe. Maryam Namazie, the head of the British group said "Too many things in the media and government policies have been geared to pandering to the political Islamic movements and Islamic organizations." <ref> [http://michellemalkin.com/2007/06/20/ex-muslims-stand-up-in-britain/ Ex-Muslims stand up in Britain]</ref><br />
<br />
----<br />
''Some of the text for this article was taken from "Islam: A Primer", Congressional Research Service Report for Congress (2003), a work in the public domain'' [http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islam.htm#back] <br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
[[Image:Africa islam 87.jpg|thumb|Islam in Africa]]<br />
*[[Arab American]]<br />
*[[Islamic republic]]<br />
*[[Qur'an]]<br />
*[[Ramadan]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html Islam and Christianity] - excellent article comparing and contrasting the two.<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Quran online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/ Sahih Bukhari (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/ Sahih Muslim (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/ Sunan Abu-Dawud (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/ Malik's Muwatta (Hadith collection) online in English]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
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<br />
[[Category:Islam]]<br />
[[Category:Worldviews]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Heavy_metal_music&diff=507513Talk:Heavy metal music2008-08-30T20:57:18Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Christianity? ==<br />
I find the statement on Christianity to be rather inaccurate. While I understand this is a conservative encyclopedia, that is no excuse for fallacies. Many metalheads and musicians are openly Christian, such as Dave Mustaine and Dave Ellefson of Megadeth, Jack Owen, and Tom Araya of Slayer. I believe a more accurate statement would be that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent in extreme metal music. There is also a strong Christian Metal Subgenre, see bands such as As I Lay Dying, Believer, and Stryper. I shall change the statements to be more accurate and less condemning. [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 16:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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I wouldn't even say that Anti-Christian sentiments are quite prevalent at all. I listen to metal music, and sure some of it is about death and killing and things like that, but I wouldn't say it's Anti-Christian. Some metal music includes themes that are similar to many popular songs of other genres, just in a different form. --[[User:ALFa|ALFa]] 16:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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That's primarily what I hoped to get across, I suppose the term "present" is more accurate. I consider the music to show, when it discusses Satan, a Christian perception of the being. What I meant to say was that the only genre, to my knowledge, that contains overtly anti-Christian themes would be death metal or black metal, and even there it is somewhat rare. I think many mainstream Christians misconstrue the disrespect for organized religion (i.e, a church, pastors, or priests.) for being Anti-Christian. They are not one in the same, as to not believe in church is not the same as not believing in god. I'll change it to be more accurate.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:07, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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As a metal fan (who's wearing a Dream Theater shirt right now), I think that the Satan reference was ridiculous. I took it right out. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 18:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Agreed, i thought of it as inappropriate as well, but since it referenced it as the opinions of conservatives, I left it. Dream Theater! Another openly Christian metal band (though not in the Christian metal genre). I have a few more changes to make on the article, you left a slight typo! I forgive you! [[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 18:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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Actually, creating this article in the way I did was almost a joke; this is indeed a conservative encyclopedia -- so I used those particular statements to be, in a way, on the extreme of what some people might think. Don't take it the wrong way. Plus, the username I chose might have tipped people off: I really don't know much in the way of creating encyclopedia articles, so I left things vague and unopinionated (my opinions, anyway). I am actually a metal fan who laughed at the article, not believing in what I was typing. Then again, some of the more extreme Black metal bands do reference Satan in non-metaphorical terms. But most of those bands are without actual substance and therefore suck. [[User:N00b|N00b]] 09:01, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
:Yes, and I know only two people that worship the devil, as a god, in metal music of any form: Glen Benton, and Oystein Aarseth (Aka Euronymous), both extremists not to be considered the standard of a heavy-metaller.[[User:Mustaine12390|Mustaine12390]] 17:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)<br />
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It's hard to prove that anyone is actually "worshiping Satan". Let's not fall into that trap. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Link==<br />
Is that parody..? Linking to a cliched, comedic-parody of a heavy metal band in order to illustrate the article? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 19:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:I was just about to say the same thing. Spinal tap was a fictionalized parody of a metal band. (And a darn good band, if I do say so myself, and I do). [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:37, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::The movie [[Spinal Tap]] was a comedy; I'd like to write about its director, who made a few similar movies like [[A Mighty Wind]] (satirizing folk music performers). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::Rob Reiner directed "This Is Spinal Tap", but it was Christopher Guest who directed "A Mighty Wind". Guest wrote/co-wrote both of them though. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:34, 29 December 2007 (EST)<br />
<br />
::::You are devilishly clever, my friend! ;-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 20:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::::Guest is quite an interesting subject for a bio, even without touching on his works - Jewish American British nobleman... Quite a mix. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 20:50, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Spirituality and etiquette==<br />
<br />
Let's tread carefully while describing the delicate issue of [[spirituality]] of metal bands. Some have exploited satanic imagery, to be sure, but their proportion might be less than 99%. <br />
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Mass reverts aren't good form. Just change one section at a time, please. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:As someone who is fairly knowledgable about heavy metal, I actually agree with Walker in that I've never heard the term Satan's Fire Metal. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:27, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==State of the Article==<br />
In it's current condition this article is a joke to anyone who knows anything about metal. 99.9 percent of bands that have pyrotechnics are not trying to recreate hell. Also "the horns" are more often just a sign for metal and unity amongst metalheads and are not done to look like satan or praise satan. It isn't even limited to metal you will see it at even country and boy band shows or how about a Texas Longhorns football game? The song meanings are ridiculous, Go To Hell is about someone that is damned to hell, it is not promoting satanism. It was written for the Bill and Teds Bogus Journey movie where the charecters go to hell. Take no prisioners is about military warfare. The song references Normandy and Panzers so it was probably inspired by D-Day, it is not promoting violence anymore than Saving Private Ryan. Suicide Sollution is about how abusing drugs and alcohol to solve your problems is a "suicide" sollution. Fade to Black is about losing the will to carry on, and was inspired by the bands equipment being stolen, it can be interpreted as a suicide song but even then how is it glamorized? Also why was the referenced content about Christians in non Christian bands removed? All the unreferenced stuff on this page should be removed before that was.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 13:51, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:The idea of "Christian" metal strikes me as utterly proposterous. Just like the idea of African Klu Klux Klan members or Jewish Nazis is utterly proposterous. Quit trying to make Heavy Metal music into something that it is not. You've made various attempts to censor the material here or downplay Metal's dangerous nature, but it's not going to work. Maybe you'd feel more at home at Wikipedia. Your attempts to disassociate Metal with Satanism are pathetic. That's like saying you're a Ku Klux Klan member but you're not into the whole discrimination thing.. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::Jose calm down. Metal is a style of music, not a way of thinking. There is absolutely no contridiction with someone using a certain style of music to promote ''any'' message -- good ''or'' bad. You should check out some Christian metal. A youth Christian musical concert (Ichthus) often features metal bands -- one of their tents is dedicated entirely towards "heavier" music. I also personally know the manager of a Christian metal band. He is old friends with my youth pastor at church and I've done some work with him. He is an intense Christian and his music is... well, rather intense. So please take a chill pill and open your mind to other possibilities.<br />
::Think about it this way: even if metal ''were'' "satanist--dominated" (which I don't think it is), wouldn't that therefore be the best place for a Christian band? Jesus hanged out with prostitutes and beggars, remember. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::There's even Christian rap, which uses the rapid-fire half-spoken style of [[hip hop]] to convey the pro-woman, anti-violence message of Jesus and salvation. My favorite "heavenly metal" group is [[The Ancestors]]. And there's always [[Stryper]] ("by his stripes we were healed"). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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First of all, I do not agree with what any of you have posted. However, perhaps I shall listen to some of this "Christian" metal and "Christian" rap. There might be a small chance that I am wrong. I was wrong about Spinal tap. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:This music.. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huod7HJe4BM]] It's disgusting. I'm going to have to disagree with all those who support "Christian" metal. This just doesn't sound very Christian to me.. First of all, it's too loud and violent sounding and the screaming sounds very demonic. Even if there are pro-Christian lyrics in the songs it's impossible to tell because the screaming is incomprehensible. The choice of intervals strikes me as interesting.. Very evil sounding. Please listen and tell me what you think.. I really don't get it. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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::It obviously wasn't designed with you in mind. I don't hear anything "evil", except that you automatically associate the genre with evil, which is a circular argument. I don't hear any "evil-sounding intervals" either. Try looking up some lyrics before you base Christianity on how a group decides to play the guitar. Here's one called [http://lyrics.christiansunite.com/lyrics_1134_7.shtml If I Die] by Stryper. ("Living was hard /And loneliness easily justified / Oh, then I found You / Ooh, I suddenly knew / What I wanted to do was to make You satisfied / And not to die for selfish pleasure / But to live with You by my side"). It's not as heavy musically (here's a [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFOsQd34qE Youtube vid] -- ignore the visuals though), but still considered "metal" I would think.<br />
<br />
::I did some searching, and here's the lyrics from one of the songs in the video you found [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734]. Check out the description at the bottom: "True hope should only be placed in Christ, and no man. Christ will never fail you...".<br />
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::This isn't your mom's Christian music! But that doesn't make it wrong. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:00, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::Would this qualify as metal? I could actually see myself listening to something like this. It's melodic, and the singing is clean and clear. Thanks.. This is inspiring. But I don't think it's heavy metal. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::That's why I found the other lyrics for you. [http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/lyrics/new/track.asp?track_id=8734 These] are lyrics from that Youtube video you disagreed with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::Well Jose all of what you are saying is your own personal opinion. How is it to loud? Any music can be to loud, if that is a problem turn the volume down. Different people have different tastes, just because you don't like a style of music doesn't make it "evil". Besides the bible instructs us to "Sing unto Him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise" (Psalm 33:3). God is infinitely bigger than your music tastes. Also many styles of metal have very easily comprehensable lyrics and so what if they aren't comprehensible? Does that make it wrong? If you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't give you the right to try and demonize something just because it doesn't appeal to your personal tastes.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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I highly doubt Jesus would have "rocked out" to this garbage. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I think if you feel that the music is "garbage" then we should find someone with a more neutral attitude to edit it, no? I'm not saying you shouldn't edit, but I would think hard about if you are the appropriate one. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:How do you know God's musical tastes?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:26, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::God is absolutely Holy, therefore he wouldn't indulge in music with satanic connotation. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Could you be a little more specific as to what you mean by "satanic connotation".--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:39, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::::A lot of heavy metal is inspired by Satan and the occult. This definitely would not cater to God's taste. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::::Jesus hanged (hung? I never get that right) out with sinners, beggars and prostitutes. If this music really is as evil as you say, shouldn't Christians get in there to converted these supposed evildoers? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:48, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
:::::Many books are inspired by Satan and the occult, does that mean all books are against God?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 19:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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Jesus would have discouraged the prostitutes from whoring themselves and they would have discouraged these bands from playing the music they are playing. He wouldn't encourage more Christians to become prostitutes or play heavy metal. A certain category of books are inspired by satan and the occult and all within that category are against god, just like how heavy metal is a certain genre of music which is against god. Not all music is against god. True heavy metal is. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Well I guess we know that these artists aren't Jesus himself then. It doesn't mean they aren't Christian, however. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Jesus hung out with drunks and whores, I guess, him being so tolerant and all. But he also is famous for telling the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more". <br />
<br />
::My impression of metal is that it invokes a lot of nasty symbols: devils, long tongues, gloomy or morbid lyrics, etc. Within the genre I'm sure there are a handful of Christian groups like [[Stryper]] (which I wrote, hint hint!) who I suppose decided to "move into the neighborhood" and seek converts among metalheads. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:17, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Question==<br />
How does linking to lyrics prove the song is "promoting" satanism.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:01, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:It doesn't. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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::Funny the Fade to Black reference actually say the opposite of what is stated in the article.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:11, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:Clearly you and ''Jose'' disagree on many aspects of this genre of music. I suggest you '''add''' everything you want, while letting him do the same. I'll check back from time to time and see if I can integrate your work and his. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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==Stop==<br />
The article has seen plenty of edits going on, with no real improvement to its state. I can see both sides of the argument, but unless Walker and Jose83 can start to learn to work together, then we're just going to end up with a bigger pile of cowcake than when we started. The article is dire right now, and frankly the best thing is for you two to step away from it for a day and work out what you want to say in it, get together your references, then we'll take it from there. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:40, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:I was following Ed Poor's instruction from above. I wasn't changing his edits.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:41, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
::I'm not apportioning any kind of blame. And Ed's advice is good, excepting for the fact that the article is now a scab to both of you and you can't resist picking it. Leave it until tomorrow, it will be unlocked in about 12 hours, and we can try to put together a '''coherent''' article presenting the facts as we know them, instead of a point/counterpoint list of grievances. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 21:44, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:::==Dial-the-Truth-Ministries==<br />
:::The Dial-the-Truth-Ministry is a controversial religious group that is part of King James Only Movement. One of the main goals of the group is to denounce the evil that they believe Christian metal or rock music is. The group believes that any form of music with a beat is evil. <ref>[http://www.av1611.org/ Dial-the-Truth-Ministries]</ref> Ted Kirkpatrick, the drummer for the Christian metal band Tourniquet stated the following about the groups website, ''"This site is so full of inaccuracies, so devoid of sound Biblical principles, and uses such twisted logic, that some have emailed us asking if it was done as a joke."''<ref>http://www.tourniquet.net/faq/</ref><br />
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:::I added the above here since the article is locked so I can move it to the article when it is unlocked.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 21:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)<br />
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:... this article needs to be a collaboration, not a rant, from both sides. Content: I'm working on adding some history and the "technicalities" of what HM is ("neutral to the facts"), and then the more controversial aspects can be worked in by you guys. As I said it would be, it's unprotected, but that doesn't mean you should just come along and edit in tiny soundbites. Try to edit cohesively, so that the article doesn't just resemble the transcript of two guys shouting each other down :) [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 08:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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There needs to be SOME mention of Satanism in the article. Neglecting to do so is just plain irresponsible. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:Try concentrating on an explanation of why some people believe there are Satanic elements in heavy metal. What satanic themes do they find in it? Imagery, lyrics? Be specific and provide references. <br />
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:If your work is being reverted, then create a user subpage like [[User:Jose83/metal]]. No one is allowed to edit there but you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:02, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Imagery of certain metal bands definitely attempt to make Satan appear "cool".<br />
*[[http://www.teens411.com/newspics/mudvayne.jpg Mudvayne picture]] The guy actually looks like the Devil!<br />
*[[http://static.metal-archives.com/images/3/9/4/394.jpg Countless]]<br />
*[[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Iron_Maiden-Dance_of_Death.jpg Iron Maiden]]<br />
*[[http://www.mystrands.com/photos/1/4/5/normal/14556.jpg Covers]]<br />
*[[http://www.av1611.org/rock.html]] And lyrics of many metal songs clearly convey an Anti-Christian/Satanic message.<br />
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We need to give an honest depiction of what this music is instead of trying to make it out to be wholesome Christian music like Walker is trying to do. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:You're preaching to the choir. Those are good links. Now do some writing. Don't worry about reverts; Fox and I can resurrect anything that gets killed. (Oops, am I getting arrogant?) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Instances of individual Satanic metal bands should only be used to argue against those bands being good, not just the whole genre. Should we argue that all movies of a certain genre are bad just because a few are rated R and point out instances of nudity and profanity in those movies? It's a logical fallacy. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:00, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Suicide==<br />
<br />
:suicide is the only way out<br />
<br />
Is Ozzy quoting what the lad says to rebut it? Or is he promoting [[suicide]]? Perhaps it is this kind of ambiguity that makes parents and educators worry that metal is bad for kids. It's a far cry from, "Come and play / everything's A-OK" or "I love you / You love me". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Is the Scripture that follows promoting suicide? "Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him." (1 Samuel 31:4-5) "But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (1 Kings 19:4 ) You have to put that line back into the context of the song, which is quite plainly about alcohol abuse, about how it is nothing glamorous, just a slow suicide for the alcoholic. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 18:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Jolly good. So let's point out that '''not all''' references to suicide in heavy metal music are intended to glorify it. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 18:32, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:::Fact is you probaably can't find one example of a band '''glorifying''' suicide. Why would any band glorify suicide? If they are in the buisness of selling albums and filling the seats at concerts why would they want their fans to kill themselves? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 15:30, 18 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::::The closest I can come to a band ''glorifying'' suicide would be ''Don't Fear the Reaper'' by Blue Oyster Cult. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 15:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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==Links==<br />
*http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm - rock music<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/satanic_quotes.htm<br />
*http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/nature.htm<br />
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== Christian metal is not evil ==<br />
<br />
It is preposterous to say that all Christian metal is evil. Every claim is based upon specific instances of evil in secular metal, and thus not a valid comparison. This site defends Christian metal against every argument that groups like Dial-the-Truth can come up with: http://www.mindspring.com/~brucec/craindex.htm [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Yes this is quite obvious and wow that site is wonderful. This site here http://www.metalforjesus.org/friorfoe.html is also pretty good although it doesn't contain nearly as much information. I'd also like to point out that although there are secular acts that promote immorality and blaspheme and stuff like that, many of them do not. First of all just because a song is about something does not mean a band is advocating or promoting it. Oftentimes they are just telling a story for entertainment value and they often use satire. There are many different styles of metal and many of them have totally different common lyrical themes. These links Jose is posting are laughable. I'd also like to know how Jose knows what Satan physically looks like. According to one of the links, apparently when Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Hit Parader magazine that, "We can play with conviction every night, because we totally believe in the music we're performing." That means that he is a satanist. Also what does posting links of album covers prove. If you want to find viable criticisms of heavy metal that aren't going to make this article into one of the jokes of conservapedia you might want to stay away from using Terry Watkins as a source.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 22:25, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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::So you admit there are many Metal bands to promote immorality and blasphemy.. We have progress! If an Artist makes a song about "Killing 'em all" they don't need to openly promote it as a band to promote it because the song is already out there and young impressionable children are already being brainwashed and programmed. And you can also play dumb and and pretend that the guy from Mudvayne isn't trying to look like Satan but he looks exactly how popular culture has made him out to look like. Iron Maiden heavily relies on demonic images to sell-out concerts and sell albums. This is especially prevelant on their album covers where the marketing of a demon-like mascot is irrefutable. Do you listen to these bands, Walker? -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
<br />
Iron Maiden isn't a good influence. They had a song called "Number of the Beast". Nobody's saying that Iron Maiden is a good band. The issue here is Christian metal bands, who tend not to have songs like that. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:56, 2 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:Sorry another point I am trying to make is that much of secular metal does not stand as a polar opposite to Christian metal as well--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:13, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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:I'll concede that Christian Heavy Metal may not be ''evil'', but I think their Artists have selected the wrong medium in which to praise Jesus. I have not made any claims of Christian Metal being evil in the revised article. However, I will not write anything positive about it either. I shall leave that to you, Fox, or Walker. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
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:I never denied that there weren't bands who did, you made the claim that either most or all bands do, which simply is not true. Also a question, if something is a medium that means it is neither right or wrong, so why is it wrong?--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:15, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
::A medium is not inherently neutral. All heavy metal is aggressive and violent so it incites aggressive, violent behavior in the listener. My former friend was in a car wreck because the music he was listening to {System of a Down} caused him to drive irresponsibly. Also, just read the news. Riots at heavy metal concerts are the norm. There is no denying that Rock music in general evokes aggressive feelings in the listener. I just don't believe that these feelings should be evoked while praising Jesus. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:::Stop making generalizations. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 14:21, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::Your friend was in a car wreck because he's a reckless driver. - [[User:JasonAQuest|JasonAQuest]] 23:41, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
Yes I admited there are some bands that blaspheme and promote immorality, you can find people that do that in pretty much every area of life so what is your point? That doesn't mean all of it is like that. There is no song called Killing Em All that I know of. I don't like Mudvayne but suppoesadly they are trying to look like aliens from a fictional story that they created and base there albums on. Well if you examine the lyrics of the song "Number of the Beast" which actually opens with a reading from the bible. The song is just a story about a guy who is trying to get away from a satanic cult and ultimately is unable to escape them. Apparently it was based on a nightmare Steve Harris had after seeing one of The Omen movies. Eddie is just a cartoon masscot and he is something different on pretty much every album cover. I've always thought of him as some sort of B horror movie type of zombie rather than a demon and by the logic you present I suppose the New Jersey Devils are also relying on satanism to promote their hockey team and Hot Tamales candies and other various hot sauce companies are doing the same? --[[User:Walker|Walker]] 00:12, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Article poses as unbiased. ==<br />
<br />
I would never expect a true conservative website to be so pro-heavy metal but here we are. The criticism section is laughable because it contains no real criticism at all whatsoever. I took the time to examine previous versions of the article and noticed that there were indeed previous examples of valid criticism, but they were removed by user [[User:Walker|Walker]]. I also noticed that a vast majority of his contributions involve removing criticism from articles of his Heavy Metal heroes. I believe this article should be revamped with some input from people who are willing to voice valid criticisms of the genre. - [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:Please look at the reason for removing the criticism section before blindly adding it back in yourself (along with removing someone else's unrelated work). Most, if not all, of the references are junk; one actually leads you to a site where you can buy a "research paper" about heavy metal music. Plagiarism sites are not valid citations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:10, 7 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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:[[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]], if there are any real valid criticisms out there then find them and add them to the article since you find it to be lacking.--[[User:Walker|Walker]] 16:36, 9 February 2008 (EST)<br />
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::Perhaps this site should be renamed Liberalpedia. Too deny that Heavy Metal is influenced by Satanists and Athiests is just downright looney. I cannot believe that blatantly un-christian music can be portrayed positively on a Conservative website. I readded the previous criticism section because it's the true conservative christian thing to do. -- [[User:Osayat3|Osayat3]]<br />
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:::This is a conservative ''encyclopedia''. Did you even look at anything Walker or I have said? Better yet, have you looked at the portion you keep adding? Please tell me how [http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/64763.html this] is a reliable source. If heavy metal music is so unilaterally evil, surely you can find some better sources than that. Nobody is saying you can't have a critisism, but it has to follow our rules. If you readd the section again without better sources you will be blocked. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:33, 11 February 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
== We need more ==<br />
<br />
There are plenty of web resources we can use, and books too, I have a few of them and plan to add the citations (I know not how to do that yet, however I realize it must be simple.) Right now the article seems to lack much historical description for the genre save what I just added, as well as a description of the music itself aside from commonly held conceptions about what heavy metal is. Certainly we can do better. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 15:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
- Something else to consider: the criticism is not really... criticism, at all. In fact I'm trying to figure out if we need a criticism section at all if what is currently there is the only thing anyone can find. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 16:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Definite need of a revamp =<br />
This looks like the kind of article [[Wikipedia]] would have for Heavy Metal. In order to clean this article up, we should start by redoing the criticism section.<br />
<br />
http://www.conservapedia.com/User:Jose83/Heavy_Metal_music <br />
<br />
I plan on using the above link as a rough guideline for how the article should look.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Liberal_denial&diff=507509Liberal denial2008-08-30T20:39:35Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Liberal denial''' is the tendency of [[liberals]] to go into "denial mode" and conceal, deny or censor the truth for ideological reasons. A list of the top ten ''common'' instances of [[liberal denial]] are the following:<br />
<br />
# [[liberals]] deny they are [[liberal]], and that most of the media are [[liberal]]<br />
# [[Hollywood values]], [[professor values]] and general [[liberal]] values have consequences for those who believe in them, and also for innocent victims<br />
# [[liberals]] have censored [[prayer]] in [[public school]]<ref>A [[public school]] student who once "tape recorded a teacher making religious remarks to his students" to complain about it then later objected to a textbook explaining how prayer is censored from [[public school]] schools by court decisions. [http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=4614012]</ref> <br />
# a woman significantly reduces her risk of breast cancer by having children rather than [[abortions]]<br />
# about half of promiscuous people carry sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), and those STDs cause infertility<ref>"Among those who admitted having sex, the rate was even more disturbing -- 40 percent had an STD."[http://www.tulsaworld.com/lifestyle/article.aspx?articleID=20080312_1_C12_hUShe15125]</ref><br />
# the strident promoters of [[evolution]] generally have weaker credentials than advocates of [[intelligent design]]<ref>See, e.g., [[Richard Sternberg]]</ref><br />
# college faculties at nearly every school are completely dominated by [[liberals]], and have virtually no [[conservatives]]<br />
# [[homosexuality]] shortens lifespan for a variety of reasons<br />
# reducing the number of guns, which are primarily defensive weapons, results in an increase in crime<br />
# [[Liberals]] deny that the war in [[Iraq]] was needed and also deny that the surge has worked<br />
<br />
<br />
More generally, liberals also deny:<br />
<br />
# more than 80% of child molesters are pornography addicts<br />
# people like [[young mass murderers]] who take [[atheistic]] beliefs to their logical conclusions are not "crazy" or "insane", but are true believers <br />
# the intellectual justification for [[Hitler]]'s attempt to build a master Aryan race was the [[theory of evolution]]<br />
# [[feminists]] censor discussion about differences between men and women, and boys and girls<br />
# [[Socialized_medicine|state run health care]] has lead to Islamic terrorism in Britain, and would do so in the US. <ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMu6wCqdeyQ ''FOX News analyzes the new terror in state healthcare.''</ref><br />
# obesity is a bigger problem than hunger in the Western world<br />
# that a school having virtually no [[conservative]] teachers and many [[atheists]] and [[liberals]] is a [[liberal]] school<br />
# that [[liberals]] attempt to intimidate and ostracize [[conservatives]], particularly in school environments and some occupations.<ref>See [[liberals and friendship]].</ref><br />
# that [[liberals]] support taxpayer-funded [[abortion]]<br />
# that girls and women in sports have debilitating ACL knee injuries at 3-4 times the rate of men,<ref>''Compare'' [http://www.universityhealthmatters.com/article.php?artid=50] (with an explanation of why there is a big difference) ''with'' [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/health/18knee.html?ex=1204088400&en=3a5abfaa6104ac63&ei=5070&emc=eta1 New York Times] (downplaying the difference and pretending that no one knows why). The New York Times denies overwhelming evidence, including the following:<br />
:"Female athletes, particularly basketball players, are far more likely than their male counterparts to suffer ACL [Anterior Cruciate Ligament] injuries." Stephen Hargis, "Girls have more torn ACLs," Chattanooga Times Free Press (Tennessee), D1 (Feb. 4, 2005). According to the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons, the risk of women tearing their ACL is 1 in 100. This number drops significantly to only 1 in 500 for men. See Nikki Usher, "Knee injury takes toll on girls playing soccer five times more likely than males to suffer a torn ACL," Philadelphia Inquirer, A01 (Nov. 29, 2004). "Compared with guys, female athletes run an eight-times-greater risk of tearing the ACL, a fibrous band that connects the shinbone (tibia) to the thighbone (femur). Basketball, soccer and other sports that require cutting moves or jump shots can put athletes at risk." Kathleen Fackelmann, "Girls face higher knee injury risk," USA Today, 15B (Aug. 24, 2004). Timothy Hewett, PhD, the lead researcher on a definitive study at the Sports Medicine Biodynamics Center at the University of Cincinnati, says this is "close to a billion-dollar problem in girls and women in the USA. ... Even after girls have recovered from the acute injury, the changes in the joint may set the stage for osteoarthritis of the knee ...." ''Id.'' That obvious suspicion was quickly confirmed: a study subsequently published in Arthritis & Rheumatism demonstrated that "more than half of ... 103 soccer players, who were ages 14 to 28 at the time of the ACL injury, suffered osteoarthritis of the knee at the time of the study -- about 12 years later." Kathleen Fackelmann, "Girls' knee injuries have later consequences," USA Today, 9D (Oct. 7, 2004). "Many of the women, who were about 31 by that time, also said they had pain or some other disability that made it hard to conduct daily activities." ''Id.''</ref> and are vulnerable to other injuries<ref>"Amber Scull ruptured her spleen after she was tackled during a practice drill at Nature Coast Tech in Brooksville 2 1/2 months ago. Had she [not] arrived at the hospital 30 minutes later, doctors told her mother, she might have died." [http://www.sptimes.com/2004/01/06/news_pf/Sports/Girls_face_dangers_on.shtml]</ref><br />
# that [[young mass murderers]] fit the profile of [[public school]]-trained [[atheism]]<br />
# that the numerous premature deaths of [[Hollywood]] stars are the result of [[Hollywood values]]<ref>Liberal [[Wikipedia]] lists numerous [[actor]]s who died of drug overdoses, but will not acknowledge the role played by [[Hollywood values]], for which Wikipedia does not even have an entry. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths]</ref><br />
# that [[homeschoolers]] often do better than those who attend [[public school]]<br />
# that [[culture]] affects [[politics]], and people's views and lifestyles<br />
# that successful [[democracy]], both historically and logically, is the result of [[Protestantism|Protestant]] [[Christianity]]<ref>[http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/cultural_apologetics/snyder-democracy1.html Calvinism and the Success of Liberal Democracy, by John Snyder]</ref><br />
# that [[Lawrence Summers]] was fired as President of [[Harvard]] for making a [[political correctness|politically incorrect]] suggestion about women and [[math]] aptitude<br />
# that [[Ronald Reagan]]'s public exhortation, "[[Mikhail Gorbachev|Mr. Gorbachev]], tear down this wall," helped cause the nearly 30-year-old [[Berlin Wall]] later be torn down<br />
# that [[gun control]] increases [[crime]]<br />
# that reducing [[taxes]] stimulates the [[economy]]<br />
# that choosing [[abortion]] over childbirth increases the risk of [[breast cancer]]<br />
# that the [[mainstream media]] is [[bias]]ed<br />
# that privately-run [[transport]] is more efficient than government-run transport<br />
# that [[Universal Health Care|public health care]] is inferior medical care<br />
# that [[Labor union|union]]s interfere with [[employment]] opportunities<br />
# that [[liberal]] leaders engage in shocking wrongdoing, [[Liberal hypocrisy|hypocrisy]], and abuse of power<ref>See, e.g., leading [[liberal]] [[Eliot Spitzer]] and how fellow [[liberals]] downplayed or were silent about his misconduct.</ref><br />
# that ideas do matter, and can cause great harm, including liberal falsehoods<br />
# that [[Islam]]ic extremism is a threat to the [[Western civilization]]<ref>Leftist [[Sam Harris]] admitted and complained about this liberal denial [http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061009/REPOSITORY/610090301/1028/OPINION02 here].</ref><br />
# that banning [[same-sex marriage]] is analogous to banning [[polygamy]]<br />
# that aggressive interrogation is often the only way to obtain answers from [[terrorists]]<br />
# how the [[liberal]] ideology is pushed on unsuspecting others, particularly youngsters<br />
# that free trade strengthens global democracies<br />
# that a child in a mother's womb has rights established by the [[Constitution]]<br />
# that a [[vote]] for (yea) or a vote against (nea) is an absolute position<br />
# that you can be held accountable for the statements uttered<br />
# that climate forecasts 50 years from now are as inaccurate as 15 days from now<br />
# that politicians that proclaim 'Change' actually do not break with policies of the past<br />
# that removing [[Saddam Hussein]] from power was a good thing.<br />
# that eating [[meat]] and [[dairy]] is important for physical and mental health.<br />
# that [[marijuana]] use has no lasting psychological effects.<br />
# that illegal immigrants contribute to crime and poverty in the towns and cities they occupy.<br />
# that English will cease being the language of the United States in 20 years unless it is protected as the [[official language]] (and that this would be a loss if it happened).<br />
# that President Bush didn't cause Hurricane Katrina.<br />
# that President Clinton was responsible for Rwanda inaction.<br />
# that the Democratic party discriminates against African-Americans.<br />
# that restricting free speech by the [[Fairness Doctrine]] is actually not fair nor democratic.<br />
# that we can drill oil our way out of high gas prices.<br />
# that we can't replace our dependence on oil with green technologies, when in fact we need both oil and green technologies to solve our energy crisis.<br />
# that opposing same-sex [[marriage]] is justified and point to decriminalized interracial marriage bans as proof.<br />
# that they are [[intolerant]] of opposing viewpoints and then try to stifle further discussion.<br />
# that [[socialism]] and liberalism have the same political agenda.<br />
# that [[God]] should have a place in government<br />
# that modern drilling methods result in minimal environmental impact, even if they were implemented in uninhabited lands such as the [[Arctic National Wildlife Refuge]]<br />
# that companies like [[Exxon]] should pay billions of dollars in damages to the general public, ''in addition'' to the money they spend to clean up industrial accidents and to recompense those directly affected<br />
# that [[selective logging]] keeps forests healthier by reducing the risk of wildfire<br />
# that high food prices are not caused by [[ethanol]] production, but rather by the million acres of crop- and pastureland that have been taken out of production in the interest of wildlife conservation.<br />
# that the life of a human is more important than the life of an animal.<br />
# that modern technology can make [[coal]] clean<br />
# that a fence is the most effective and ultimately, the most peaceful way to protect our large border from illegal immigrants trying to get in<br />
# that socially dangerous people exhibit a well-documented pattern of reading habits<br />
# that [[heavy metal]] music is generally anti-Christian and promotes themes such as drugs, sex and [[Satan]] worship.<br />
<br />
Often [[liberal]]s refuse to admit that they are [[liberal]]s, in the hope of appearing more reasonable. [[Hillary Clinton]] refused to admit in a presidential debate in 2007 that she is a [[liberal]]. Similarly, [[Michael Dukakis]] refused for a while to admit that he was a [[liberal]] during the 1988 presidential campaign. Only out of desperation did Dukakis admit that he was a [[liberal]], and even then he admitted only that was a liberal like President [[Harry Truman]], who served 40 years earlier.<br />
<br />
Liberals like to bash President Bush as a war monger and cite [[President Clinton]] for his eight years of peace and prosperity. Liberals will deny record low unemployment, more people owning their homes and President Bush going after [[terrorists]] while protecting Americans from further attacks. Liberals will selectively forget that during Clinton's term: the [[Rwanda]] massacre occured, the bombing of the USS Cole, the war in the [[Balkans]], the two US embassies bombed in [[Africa]], the Kobar tower bombing in Saudi Arabia, the [[Somalia]] conflict, the missile strike against [[Afghanistan]] and the bombing campaign against Iraq. Also, [[liberals]] will deny that Clinton's economic policy ignored a series of high profile companies that eventually collapsed due to fraud: Enron, Tyco, Worldcom and Qwest. <br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
{{liberalism}}<br />
[[category:politics]]<br />
[[category:liberals]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Liberal_celebrity_obsession&diff=507425Essay:Liberal celebrity obsession2008-08-30T17:52:34Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Liberal celebrity obsession''' is the phenomenon of obessions over the lives of celebrities which is demonstrated mainly by individuals with [[liberal]] political leanings.<br />
<br />
== Media ==<br />
Liberal celebrity obsession can be observed on most [[mainstream media]] outlets. Often the media will prioritize trivial [[celebrity]] activities over events with legitimate importance. <br />
<br />
'''Some examples include''':<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Paris Hilton]]'s jail sentence.<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Anna Nicole Smith]] and the liberal media's attempt at making her the next [[Marilyn Monroe]].<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Britney Spears]]' personal life.<br />
<br />
Liberals will often listen to the testimony of a celebrity such as [[Sheryl Crow]]<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/21/AR2007042101385_pf.html Saving the Earth: The Biodiesel Bus Blog]</ref> or [[Leonardo DiCaprio]]<ref>[http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarming/a/dicaprio.htm Leonardo DiCaprio to Produce Documentary on Global Warming]</ref> when discussing matters such as [[Global Warming]].<br />
<br />
== Entertainment ==<br />
Publications such as [[tabloid]]s and [[Entertainment Tonight]] garner most of their audience from the liberal population. With this support, these enterprises are allowed to exist because they cater to the [[liberal]] appetite.<br />
<br />
== Harmful Effects == <br />
Liberal celebrity obsession can lead to dangerous behavior such as stalking. Some notable stalkers include [[John Hinckley]], [[Dawnette Knight]] and [[Ambrose Kappos]]. <br />
<br />
Obsessed individuals may also place more importance in the activities of celebrities over the activities happening in their own lives.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Liberals]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Liberal_celebrity_obsession&diff=507423Essay:Liberal celebrity obsession2008-08-30T17:52:08Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Liberal celebrity obsession''' is the phenomenon of obessions over the lives of celebrities which is demonstrated mainly by individuals with [[liberal]] political leanings.<br />
<br />
== Media ==<br />
Liberal celebrity obsession can be observed on most [[mainstream media]] outlets. Often the media will prioritize trivial [[celebrity]] activities over events with legitimate importance. <br />
<br />
'''Some examples include''':<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Paris Hilton]]'s jail sentence.<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Anna Nicole Smith]] and the liberal media's attempt at making her the next [[Marilyn Monroe]].<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Britney Spears]]' personal life.<br />
<br />
Liberals will often listen to the testimony of a celebrity such as [[Sheryl Crow]]<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/21/AR2007042101385_pf.html Saving the Earth: The Biodiesel Bus Blog]</ref> or [[Leonardo DiCaprio]]<ref>[http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarming/a/dicaprio.htm Leonardo DiCaprio to Produce Documentary on Global Warming]</ref> when discussing matters such as [[Global Warming]].<br />
<br />
== Entertainment ==<br />
Publications such as [[tabloid]]s and [[Entertainment Tonight]] garner most of their audience from the liberal population. With this support, these enterprises are allowed to exist because they cater to the [[liberal]] appetite.<br />
<br />
== Harmful Effects == <br />
Liberal celebrity obsession can lead to dangerous behavior such as stalking. Some notable stalkers include [[John Hinckley]], [[Dawnette Knight]] and [[Ambrose Kappos]]. <br />
<br />
Obsessed individuals may also place more importance in the activities of celebrities over the activities happening in their own lives.<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Liberals]]<br />
[[Category:Media]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Sarah_Palin&diff=506865Sarah Palin2008-08-29T18:56:39Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Sarah Palin.jpg|right|thumb]] '''Sarah Palin''' (born February 11, 1964) is the [[conservative]] first-term Republican [[governor]] of [[Alaska]]. She is the youngest person to hold this honor as well as the first woman to do so in the state's history. Palin is Senator [[John McCain]]'s Vice Presidential running mate in the [[2008 Presidential Election]].<br />
<br />
Sarah's parents arrived in Alaska in 1964 to teach school in Skagway.<br />
<br />
She earned her Journalism degree from the University of [[Idaho]] and worked in media and the utility industry before beginning her public service 14 years ago.<br />
<br />
Ms. Palin was elected to two terms on the Wasilla City Council, and then two terms as the Mayor / Manager of Alaska's fastest growing community (Population: 5400)<ref>[http://wasilla.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm Wasilla Population and Demographics]</ref>. Ms. Palin's leadership qualities were recognized when she was elected as President of the Alaska Conference of Mayors despite being a woman.<br />
<br />
She has served as chairman of Alaska's Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, which regulates Alaska's [[non-renewable energy|non-renewable]] resources: [[oil]] and [[gasoline|gas]]. She also served on the Interstate Oil and Gas Compact Commission. She was named one of Alaska's "Top 40 Under 40", Alaska's Public Works "Person of the Year", and was recently inducted into the Sigma Beta Delta Honor Society at Alaska Pacific University.<br />
<br />
Married to the three-time champion of the world's longest [[snowmobile]] race ([[the Iron Dog]]), her husband is also a lifelong Alaskan and is a production operator on the [[North Slope]].<br />
<br />
Ms. Palin has served on numerous boards and commissions throughout the State, and stays active as a marathon runner, sports team mom, hockey manager and school volunteer. A lifetime member of the [[NRA]], she enjoys hunting, fishing, and Alaska history. <ref>http://gov.state.ak.us/bio.php Alaska Governor Sarah Palin</ref> On the issue of [[abortion]], she describes herself as "pro-life."<ref>http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Sarah_Palin_Abortion.htm</ref><br />
<br />
In 2007, Palin's 18-year old son, Track, enlisted in the [[Army]]. <ref>http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6920410,00.html</ref><br />
<br />
==Polar bears==<br />
<br />
Fox News reported that:<br />
* The state of Alaska will sue to challenge the recent listing of [[polar bears]] as a threatened species, Gov. Sarah Palin announced Wednesday [May 21, 2008].<br />
* She and other Alaska elected officials fear a listing will cripple oil and gas development in prime polar bear habitat off the state's northern and northwestern coasts.<br />
* Palin argued that there is not enough evidence to support a listing. Polar bears are well-managed and their population has dramatically increased over 30 years as a result of conservation, she said.<br />
* Climate models that predict continued loss of sea ice, the main habitat of polar bears, during summers are unreliable, said Palin. <ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357065,00.html?sPage=fnc/scitech/naturalscience</ref><br />
<br />
==State Legislature Investigation==<br />
In August of 2008, the [[Alaska]] state legislature began an investigation of Palin and her staff for potential abuse of power in regards to a firing of Commissioner of Public Safety Walter Monegan. Monegan was dismissed from his position in July of 2008. He alleged that Palin fired him because he refused to fire Alaska State Trooper Mike Wooten, who had been involved in a divorce and child custody battle with Palin's sister. <br />
<br />
==Vice Presidential Candidate==<br />
On August 29, 2008, Palin was announced to be the Vice Presidential nominee for Republican Senator John McCain<ref>http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/sarah_palin_vp/2008/08/29/126138.html</ref>. The selection was a surprise, as those in the media were expecting [[Minnesota]] Governor [[Tim Pawlenty]] or former [[Massachusetts]]'s Governor [[Mitt Romney]]. Palin adds youth and executive experience to the ticket. She is the second female Vice Presidential candidate of a major party in U.S. history and the first one on a Republican ticket. The last female Vice Presidential candidate was 24 years ago.<br />
<br />
When asked in the past about being McCain's vice presidential pick, she responded on Larry Kudlow of CNBC: "[A]s for that V.P. talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"<ref>[http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12969.html Palin dissed veep job]</ref><br />
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==References==<br />
<references/><br />
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==External Links==<br />
*[http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ State of Alaska - Governor Sarah Palin Official Website]<br />
*[http://www.nga.org/portal/site/nga/menuitem.29fab9fb4add37305ddcbeeb501010a0/?vgnextoid=864bb9006da3f010VgnVCM1000001a01010aRCRD National Governor's Association - Alaska Governor Sarah Palin]<br />
*[http://votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=27200 Project Vote Smart - Governor Sarah H. Palin]<br />
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{{DEFAULTSORT:Palin, Sarah}}<br />
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[[Category:Alaska Governors]]<br />
[[Category:Republican Governors]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Liberal_Obsession&diff=506329Liberal Obsession2008-08-28T19:45:32Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>A '''Liberal Obsession''' is an idea or an ideal which [[liberal]]s obsess over. This can be anything political, environmental or personal and is groundless, irrational and often flies in the face of evidence to the contrary. This obsession can lead, if enough pressure is applied, to [[liberal creep]] as [[liberals]] push their obsession.<br />
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==Examples==<br />
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*Obsession over celebrities or [[Hollywood values|Hollywood]]<br />
*Obsession on censorship of [[school prayer]]<br />
*Obsessing over [[Affirmative Action]]<br />
*Obsessing over [[Global Warming]]<br />
*Obsession on smearing [[conservatives]]<br />
*Obsession over [[gun control]]<br />
*Obsession over [[Mindless Equality]]<br />
*Obsession over [[political correctness]]<br />
*Obsession over rights for terrorists<br />
*Obsession over the [[homosexual agenda]]<br />
*Obsession over the plight of Palestinians<br />
*Obsession over [[George W. Bush]]<br />
*Obsession over [[Conservapedia]]<br />
*Obsession over celebrities<br />
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(Please add more)<br />
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==See Also==<br />
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*[[Liberals]]<br />
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[[Category:Liberals]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Liberal_celebrity_obsession&diff=506313Essay:Liberal celebrity obsession2008-08-28T19:18:59Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>'''Liberal celebrity obsession''' is the phenomenon of obessions over the lives of celebrities which is demonstrated mainly by individuals with [[liberal]] political leanings.<br />
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== Media ==<br />
Liberal celebrity obsession can be observed on most [[mainstream media]] outlets. Often the media will prioritize trivial [[celebrity]] activities over events with legitimate importance. <br />
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'''Some examples include''':<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Paris Hilton]]'s jail sentence.<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Anna Nicole Smith]] and the liberal media's attempt at making her the next [[Marilyn Monroe]].<br />
*Excessive coverage of [[Britney Spears]]' personal life.<br />
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Liberals will often listen to the testimony of a celebrity such as [[Sheryl Crow]]<ref>[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/21/AR2007042101385_pf.html Saving the Earth: The Biodiesel Bus Blog]</ref> or [[Leonardo DiCaprio]]<ref>[http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarming/a/dicaprio.htm Leonardo DiCaprio to Produce Documentary on Global Warming]</ref> when discussing matters such as [[Global Warming]].<br />
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== Entertainment ==<br />
Publications such as [[tabloid]]s and [[Entertainment Tonight]] garner most of their audience from the liberal population.{{fact}} With this support, these enterprises are allowed to exist because they cater to the [[liberal]] appetite.<br />
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== Harmful Effects == <br />
Liberal celebrity obsession can lead to dangerous behavior such as stalking. Some notable stalkers include [[John Hinckley]], [[Dawnette Knight]] and [[Ambrose Kappos]]. <br />
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Obsessed individuals may also place more importance in the activities of celebrities over the activities happening in their own lives.<br />
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== References ==<br />
{{reflist|2}}<br />
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[[Category:Liberals]]<br />
[[Category:Media]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Hip_hop&diff=363680Talk:Hip hop2008-01-03T23:43:54Z<p>Jose83: </p>
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<div>==Criticism==<br />
I plan on expanding upon the criticism section in this article. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I'm no expert, but I don't think hip hop and rap are synonymous. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:18, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Hip hop culture is an umbrella underwhich rap falls along with graffiting, baggy clothes, etc. [[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]] 15:22, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:All I know is I have some excellent hip-hop cds (remixes of old jazz standards!) and I haven't found any pure rap I can really stand. Guess that's not a very good source for an encyclopedia though. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
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Why are my edits being reverted? I thought this place was about not censoring the facts. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I would expect to see these kind of edits on the Landover Baptist website, not CP... [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 17:34, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::I didn't see facts, but unattributed opinion. Check out [[Conservapedia:Guidelines#Attribution|my favorite rule]]. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:36, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::I can attribute each statement as well as provide references. To say that some rap promotes violence is NOT an opinion. It is FACT. To say that rap promotes the breaking of these commandments is '''NOT''' ''opinion''. It is '''FACT'''. Anyone who has listened to Gangsta rap before knows this (I used to, but I'm a changed man). I am livid at the moment and am in no condition to continue writing until later. I'll discuss this at that time. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
::::Literature, movies, even the Bible! promote violence ("And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of G-d, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of G-d of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7:9-13)) Setting up articles to then apply your interpretation of Scripture or "WWJD" to them is frankly insulting. I am inclined to think you are a parodist, deliberately trolling and subtley making a mockery of us conservapedians. If you are not, your judgement is seriously skewed. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 17:56, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::::I'd expect this kind of BS at wikipedia, but not here. If you want to deliberately skewer and censor the facts to make it seem like rap is wholesome Christian music, you are free to do so, but I will have no part of it. The fact that you are so eager to defend perverted artforms such as Heavy Metal and Rap makes me think you yourself indulge in the sinful past-time. You cannot be a man of god and listen to these abominations. Light and darkness simply do not mix. And to compare the violence in hip hop to the Bible is simply disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. Violence in the Bible is justified while in Hip Hop it is always committed over trivial things (such as "hos" and "bitches") Maybe you are one of these "hos" or "bitches" that all the rappers are killing each other over. Such a comparison to the bible should really make you question how genuine your faith in God truly is and you should possibly inquire about a move to wikipedia where your lack of faith will be greeted with open arms and legs. I will not be contributing here anymore as long as you censor legitimate facts and slander the Bible. <br />
- Sincerely [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Hip_hop&diff=363618Talk:Hip hop2008-01-03T22:46:20Z<p>Jose83: correction. I'm not even thinking straight.</p>
<hr />
<div>==Criticism==<br />
I plan on expanding upon the criticism section in this article. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I'm no expert, but I don't think hip hop and rap are synonymous. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:18, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Hip hop culture is an umbrella underwhich rap falls along with graffiting, baggy clothes, etc. [[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]] 15:22, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:All I know is I have some excellent hip-hop cds (remixes of old jazz standards!) and I haven't found any pure rap I can really stand. Guess that's not a very good source for an encyclopedia though. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Why are my edits being reverted? I thought this place was about not censoring the facts. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I would expect to see these kind of edits on the Landover Baptist website, not CP... [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 17:34, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::I didn't see facts, but unattributed opinion. Check out [[Conservapedia:Guidelines#Attribution|my favorite rule]]. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:36, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::I can attribute each statement as well as provide references. To say that some rap promotes violence is NOT an opinion. It is FACT. To say that rap promotes the breaking of these commandments is '''NOT''' ''opinion''. It is '''FACT'''. Anyone who has listened to Gangsta rap before knows this (I used to, but I'm a changed man). I am livid at the moment and am in no condition to continue writing until later. I'll discuss this at that time. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Hip_hop&diff=363614Talk:Hip hop2008-01-03T22:43:29Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Criticism==<br />
I plan on expanding upon the criticism section in this article. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I'm no expert, but I don't think hip hop and rap are synonymous. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:18, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Hip hop culture is an umbrella underwhich rap falls along with graffiting, baggy clothes, etc. [[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]] 15:22, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:All I know is I have some excellent hip-hop cds (remixes of old jazz standards!) and I haven't found any pure rap I can really stand. Guess that's not a very good source for an encyclopedia though. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Why are my edits being reverted? I thought this place was about not censoring the facts. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I would expect to see these kind of edits on the Landover Baptist website, not CP... [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] <small>([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]])</small> 17:34, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
::I didn't see facts, but unattributed opinion. Check out [[Conservapedia:Guidelines#Attribution|my favorite rule]]. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:36, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:::I can attribute each statement as well as provide references. To say that some rap promotes violence is NOT an opinion. It is FACT. To say that rap doesn't promote the breaking of these commandments is '''NOT''' ''opinion''. It is '''FACT'''. Anyone who has listened to Gangsta rap before knows this (I used to, but I'm a changed man). I am livid at the moment and am in no condition to continue writing until later. I'll discuss this at that time. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Jose83/Hip_hop&diff=363597User:Jose83/Hip hop2008-01-03T22:31:08Z<p>Jose83: New page: '''Hip hop''', or '''rap''', is a music style that developed in the mid-1970s in the United States, particularly among youth in cities. It became widely successful with its anti-estab...</p>
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<div>'''Hip hop''', or '''rap''', is a music style that developed in the mid-1970s in the [[United States]], particularly among youth in cities. It became widely successful with its anti-establishment themes, sometimes even urging violence. It has two main types, rapping and DJing (which includes scratching records for added effect during the piece). <br />
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The essence of hip hop or rap is to chant a message over some type of musical beat. Singing is typically only entailed during the chorus.<br />
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Some successful rappers have included [[Eminem]], [[Dr. Dre]], [[Run Dmc]], [[DJ Skip]] (also known as A2thaM), The [[Sugerhill Gang]], [[Snoop Dogg]], [[Notorious B.I.G.]], [[Ice T]], and [[Tupac Shakur]].<br />
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==Criticism==<br />
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Many groups, including Christian groups, widely decry the hip-hop culture, because it demeans women, strongly promotes violence as well as an overly materialistic sense of life. Songs such as ''"Big Pimpin'"'' by Jay-Z promote prostitution while songs like ''"Dre Day"'' describe the performers; Snoop Dogg, and Dr. Dre performing depraved sexual acts. Songs like ''"Where the hood at?"'' have become anthems for young gangs and often incite listeners into behaving violently. <br />
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==Broken Commandments==<br />
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Modern rap often breaks several of the [[Ten Commandments]]. <br />
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*'''You shall have no other gods before Me.''' ''- Deceased rappers such as [[Tupac]] and [[Notorious B.I.G.]] are worshipped like gods in hip hop culture. They are false idols.''<br />
*'''You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.''' ''- God's name is used innappropriately in many modern rap songs.''<br />
*'''You shall not murder.''' ''- Murder is often glorified in hip hop culture. Rap artists who have not "done dirt" or committed murder lack respect within the hip hop community.''<br />
*'''You shall not commit adultery.''' ''- Premarital sex is often glamorized along with engaging in relations with married women.''<br />
*'''You shall not steal.''' ''- Rap artists will often describe committing acts of theft in their music. Within the hip hop community this is accepted because most rap artists grow up in poverty.'' <br />
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'''Genres of Rap'''<br />
*[[Gangsta Rap]]<br />
*[[Crunk]]<br />
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[[category:music]]</div>Jose83https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Hip_hop&diff=363592Talk:Hip hop2008-01-03T22:26:23Z<p>Jose83: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Criticism==<br />
I plan on expanding upon the criticism section in this article. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]<br />
:I'm no expert, but I don't think hip hop and rap are synonymous. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:18, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Hip hop culture is an umbrella underwhich rap falls along with graffiting, baggy clothes, etc. [[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]] 15:22, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
:All I know is I have some excellent hip-hop cds (remixes of old jazz standards!) and I haven't found any pure rap I can really stand. Guess that's not a very good source for an encyclopedia though. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)<br />
<br />
Why are my edits being reverted? I thought this place was about not censoring the facts. -- [[User:Jose83|Jose83]]</div>Jose83