Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

.45 GAP

2020-01-09T01:46:00Z

JohnZ: Clean-up

'''.45 GAP''' is a large caliber [[round (firearms)|round]] used in the [[Glock]] [[semi-automatic pistol]] Models G37, G38, G39. The .45 GAP is somewhat popular for [[home security]] and for [[preparedness]]. More popular is the [[.45 ACP]] used in the M1911, and the Glock Models 21 and 30.

==External links==
'''Suppliers of .45 GAP Ammunition'''
* [http://ammoseek.com/ammo/45gap .45 GAP Sources] at AmmoSeek.com
* [http://www.slickguns.com/category/ammo .45 GAP Sources] at SlickGuns.com
* [http://www.GunBot.net .45 GAP Sources] at GunBot.net
* [http://www.WikiArms.com .45 GAP Sources] at WikiArms.com
* [http://www.Gun-Deals.com .45 GAP Sources] at Gun-Deals.com

{{Ammunition topics}}

[[Category:.45 GAP]]
[[Category:.45 Caliber]]
[[Category:Handgun Ammunition]]
[[Category:Ammunition]]
[[Category:Firearms Glossary]]
[[Category:Military Ammunition]]
[[Category:Firearms]]
[[Category:Survivalism]]
[[Category:Investments in Tangibles]]

.380 ACP

2020-01-09T01:35:30Z

JohnZ: Clean-up

'''.380 ACP''' or '''.380 Auto''' is a type of [[handgun]] [[ammunition]] used most commonly in [[Glock]] [[semi-automatic pistol]]s such as the G42.

{{Ammunition topics}}

[[Category:.357 Caliber]]
[[Category:Ammunition]]
[[Category:Firearms Glossary]]
[[Category:Firearms]]

.45 ACP

2020-01-09T01:32:48Z

JohnZ: Page cleanup. Leaving cats until decision made on overall structure.

The '''.45 ACP''' is a large caliber [[round (firearms)|round]] popular for [[home security]] and for [[preparedness]].

==External links==
'''Suppliers of .45 ACP ammunition'''
* [http://ammoseek.com/ammo/45acp .45 ACP Sources] at AmmoSeek.com
* [http://www.slickguns.com/category/ammo .45 ACP Sources] at SlickGuns.com
* [http://www.GunBot.net .45 ACP Sources] at GunBot.net
* [http://www.WikiArms.com .45 ACP Sources] at WikiArms.com
* [http://www.Gun-Deals.com .45 ACP Sources] at Gun-Deals.com

{{Ammunition topics}}

[[Category:.45 ACP]]
[[Category:.45 Caliber]]
[[Category:Handgun Ammunition]]
[[Category:Firearms Glossary]]
[[Category:Military Ammunition]]
[[Category:Firearms]]
[[Category:Survivalism]]
[[Category:Investments in Tangibles]]

User:Goldwatergrrl

2020-01-09T00:53:51Z

JohnZ: Comment out cats in "sandbox" entry so userpage isn't categorised

===SANDBOX===

Every year, mass shootings are [[Armed self-defense|prevented by armed citizens]], and these stories go with very little reporting, or completely unreported altogether, with [[media bias]] being one of the reasons why.

This is an incomplete list of instances where mass shootings and loss of life have been prevented by armed, law-abiding citizens.

==Spree killers and mass killings==
The [[Federal Bureau of Investigation]] defines "mass killings as "three or more killings in a single incident".<ref name="natrev">[https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/fbi-active-shooter-data-shows-importance-of-armed-citizens/ New FBI Data on Active Shooters Shows the Importance of Armed Citizens], ''National Review'' May 25, 2018</ref> A spree killer is someone who kills two or more victims in a short time, in multiple locations.<ref name="wikipedia">[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer (definition in Wikipedia)]</ref>

==Incidents in which an armed citizen stopped an active shooter==
The following lists incidents of armed citizens stopping a shooter. Some gun control advocates describe these as "a lucky break";<ref name="volokh_analysis">[https://reason.com/volokh/2018/05/14/civilians-with-guns-intervening-in-activ ''The Volokh Conspiracy'' articls] reason.com/volokh/2018/05/14/civilians-with-guns-intervening-in-activ, describing claims of "a lucky break"</ref> however, it stretches credibility that such an armed confrontation would be pre-planned.

(The following lists do not include instances in which the "armed citizen" is the actual shooter committing suicide.)

The [[Federal Bureau of Investigation|FBI]] stated:
<blockquote>Armed and unarmed citizens engaged the shooter [during the 2016-2017 time frame] in 10 incidents. They safely and successfully ended the shootings in eight of those incidents. Their selfless actions likely saved many lives. 
The enhanced threat posed by active shooters and the swiftness with which active shooter incidents unfold support the importance of preparation by law enforcement officers and citizens alike.<ref name="fbi_report">[https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2016 and 2017], ''report'', US Dept. of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation (.pdf)</ref></blockquote>

===United States===
According to the [[Federal Bureau of Investigation|FBI]], in 2016-17, In 10 incidents, citizens confronted the shooter. In eight of those incidents, one or more citizens safely and successfully acted to end the shooting.<ref name="fbi_report" />

====The following is a partial list describing citizens engaging active shooters:====
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Year
!Name(s)
!Location
!Details

|-
|May 24, 2018
|Carlos Nazario, Bryan Wittle
|Oklahoma City, OK
|Two armed men, Carlos Nazario and Bryan Wittle (who did not know each other), gunned down a shooter Thursday at in Louie's Grill & Bar, Oklahoma City, killing Alexander C. Tilghman, an attacker who had struck three people inside the restaurant from a position outside the front door of the restaurant.<ref>[https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/us/oklahoma-city-shooting/index.html Armed bystanders kill shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant], ''CNN'' May 25, 2018</ref>
|-
|Nov 17, 2017
|Robert Lorenzo Bailey, Jr.
|Rockledge, FL
|Bailey, armed with a handgun, allegedly began shooting in the parking lot of Schlenker Automotive in Rockledge. The manager of the auto repair shop and an employee, both possessing valid CDW permits, exchanged gunfire with the shooter. One person was killed; one was wounded. The shooter, shot twice during the exchange, was held at gunpoint by the manager until law enforcement arrived and took him into custody.<ref>[http://spacecoastdaily.com/2017/12/schlenkers-automotive-suspected-shooter-robert-bailey-indicted-by-brevard-grand-jury-on-first-degree-murder-charge/ Schlenker’s Automotive Suspected Shooter Robert Bailey Indicted By Brevard Grand Jury On First-Degree Murder Charge] ''Space Coast Daily'', December 19, 2017</ref><ref name="fbi_report" />
|-
|Nov 5, 2017
|Devin Patrick Kelley
|Sutherland Springs, TX
|'''''Sutherland Springs shooting''''' - At First Baptist Church in Southerland Springs, Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, armed with a rifle, exited his vehicle and began shooting outside the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas. He then entered the church and continued shooting at members of the congregation. The shooter exited the church and was confronted by a citizen who possessed a valid firearms permit. The citizen shot the shooter twice, causing the shooter to drop his rifle and flee the scene in his vehicle. The armed citizen, together with the owner of a pickup truck, pursued the shooter. The chase ended when the shooter’s vehicle struck a road sign and overturned. Twenty-six people were killed; 20 were<ref name="fbi_report" />
|-
|Oct 23, 2017
|Alan Ashmore
|Clearlake Oaks, CA
|Ashmore, armed with a shotgun and a handgun, allegedly began firing into several homes and a vehicle in Clearlake Oaks, California, killing two people, including his father, and wounding one. Another person was wounded while fleeing out of a residence window. The shooter then shot and wounded a responding law enforcement officer before fleeing in his vehicle. The shooter drove to a nearby gas station and exchanged gunfire with the attendant, who possessed a CDW permit. The shooter fled the scene in his vehicle and drove to another gas station where he fired more shots. The shooter then drove to a nearby winery and shot at some employees before surrendering to law enforcement officers after a short vehicle pursuit. The entire incident lasted about 30 minutes. Two people were killed; three were wounded (including one law enforcement officer and one person who sustained injuries incidental to the incident). The shooter was apprehended by law enforcement.<ref>[https://abcnews.go.com/US/motive-mystery-deadly-california-shooting-spree-killed/story?id=50678695 abcnews.go.com, October 24, 2017]</ref> ''Note: The citizen involvement appears to be limited to the gas station. The shooter was thwarted at the station, but not stopped there.''
|-
|Sep 24, 2017
|Emanuel Kidega Samson
|Antioch, TN
|On September 24, 2017, at 11:15 a.m., Emanuel Kidega Samson, armed with two handguns, allegedly began shooting in the parking lot of the Burnette Chapel Church of Christ in Antioch. After killing one person, the shooter entered the church and shot six people. A church usher who attempted to subdue the shooter was pistol-whipped. During the altercation, the shooter accidentally shot himself. While the shooter was preoccupied, the citizen, who possessed a valid firearms permit, retrieved a handgun from his car and held the shooter at gunpoint until law enforcement arrived. One person was killed; seven were wounded.<ref>[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nashville-church-shooting-robert-caleb-engle-emanuel-samson/ Nashville church usher praised for confronting accused gunman in deadly shooting], ''CBS News'', September 25, 2017</ref><ref name="fbi_report" />
|-
|May 3, 2017
|James Jones
|Arlington, TX
|At Zona Caliente Sports Bar, Arlington, TX, - James Jones walked inside the Zona Caliente Sports Bar, started yelling and then allegedly shot and killed Cesar Perez. An armed CDW permit holder then shot Jones. Police stated that Jones had another semiautomatic pistol with a filed-off serial number, and two knives on him.<ref>[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/good-samaritan-kills-active-shooter-texas-sports-bar-police-n755136 'Good Samaritan' Kills Active Shooter in Texas Sports Bar: Police], NBC News, May 4, 2017</ref>
|-
|Sep 28, 2016
|Jesse Dewitt Osborne
|Townville, SC
| Townville Elementary School playground, Jesse Dewitt Osborne, 14, armed with a handgun, allegedly began shooting at the Townville Elementary School playground. Prior to the shooting, the shooter, a former student, killed his father at their home. Two people were killed, including one student; three were wounded, one teacher and two students. A volunteer firefighter, who possessed a CDW permit, restrained the shooter until law enforcement officers arrived and apprehended him.<ref>[http://www.wyff4.com/article/mother-of-teen-suspect-in-townville-shooting-releases-statement/7147275 www.wyff4.com, Sep 30, 2016]</ref>
|-
|Jun 26, 2016
|Jody Ray Thompson
|Spartanburg, SC
|An irate man opened fire on patrons waiting to enter into the Playoffz nightclub. In self-defense, someone returned fire stopping the incident.<ref>[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/30/concealed-carrier-takes-down-shooter-at-south-caro/ Concealed carrier takes down shooter at South Carolina nightclub], [[Washington Times]]</ref>
|-
|Mar 21, 2016
|James Howard
|Logan, OH
|Gun shop owner in Logan refused to sell a gun to a customer, even though he passed a background check.<ref>[http://theweek.com/speedreads/615472/gun-shop-owner-refuses-sell-gun-eligible-customer-possibly-prevents-mass-shooting Gun shop owner refuses to sell gun to eligible customer, possibly prevents mass shooting]</ref>
|-
|Apr 17, 2015
|Everardo Custodio
|Chicago
|At Chicago’s Logan Square, Uber driverEverardo Custodio was waiting for pedestrians to cross the street when a man began firing into the crowd. The driver pulled out a handgun and fired six shots at Custodio, hitting him several times. Responding officers found Custodio lying on the ground, bleeding. No other injuries were reported.<ref>[http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/21/uber-bans-guns-after-driver-uses-one-to-stop-attempted-mass-shooting/ Uber Bans Guns After Driver Uses One to Stop Attempted Mass Shooting], [[Breitbart.com]]</ref><ref>[http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html ''Chicago Tribune'' story, April 20, 2015</ref>
|-
|Mar 22, 2015
|Not released
|Falah Barber Shop, Philadelphia
|A man opened fire in a barber shop. After unnamed gunman opened fire on customers and barbers at the barber shop following an argument, a legal gun permit carrier outside heard the gunfire, ran into the shop and took out his own gun. He then opened fire, striking the first gunman once in the chest. Philadelphia Police Captain Frank Llewellyn stated, "He responded and I guess he saved a lot of people in there."<ref>[https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Shot-in-the-Chest-Inside-West-Philly-Barbershop-297176271.html Gunman Shot, Killed Inside West Philly Barbershop], ''NBC News, Philadelphia'', Mar 22, 2015</ref>

|-
|Jul 24, 2014
|Richard Plotts
|Media, PA
|At Fitzgerald Hospital, in Media, PA, psychiatric patient Richard Plotts who killed his caseworker — and grazed his psychiatrist. The psychiatrist, Dr. Lee Silverman, fired back, stopping the gunman.<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/26/official-suspect-in-deadly-hospital-shooting-had-lengthy-history-gun-arrests.html ''Fox News'' July 26, 2014], citing Associated Press</ref>

|-
|Dec 11, 2012
|Jacob Tyler Roberts
|Clackamas Town Center, OR (Portland area)
|'''''Clackamas Mall Shooting''''' - Roberts opened fire in an Oregon mall, killing two people. Nick Meli, who was also armed, brandished his pistol while taking cover. Meli did not risk firing due to a bystander behind the attacker. On seeing that Meli was armed, Roberts used his next shot to take his own life. Roberts shot two people and injured another before shooting himself. Nick Meli, with a CDW permit and carrying a Glock 22, confronted Roberts but did not fire because of a bystander in the line of fire. At that point Roberts retreated and committed suicide.<ref>[http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/clackamas_town_center_shooting_61.html Clackamas Town Center shooting: 22 minutes of chaos and terror as a gunman meanders through the mall], ''Oregonlive - The Oregonian'', December 15, 2012</ref> ''Note: It is unclear whether Roberts killed himself because he was confronted by Nick Mili.<ref>https://politicalvelcraft.org/2012/12/18/oregon-mall-shooter-stopped-by-armed-citizen-new-world-order-media-censored-repeatedly-intentionally-the-second-amendment-in-action</ref>
|-
|Sep 9, 2012
|William Allabaugh
|Plymouth, PA
|Allabaugh killed one man and wounded another following an argument over Allabaugh being ejected from a bar. Allabaugh then approached a bar manager and Mark Ktytor and reportedly pointed his gun at them; Ktytor, who had a concealed-carry license, then shot Allabaugh.<ref>[http://citizensvoice.com/news/police-plymouth-homicide-suspect-shot-by-patron-1.1370815 ''The Citizen's Voice'' September 10, 2012]</ref>
|-
|Jul 13, 2012
|Davis Dawkins, Duwayne Henderson
|Ocala, FL
|A 71-year-old man saved the lives of many at Palms Internet Cafe. When robbers entered the cafe with weapons, Samuel Williams pulled out his gun and scared off the suspects.<ref>[https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-71-shoots-alleged-robbers-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859 ABC News, July 18, 2012</ref><ref>{http://www.ocala.com/article/LK/20130430/News/604141611/OS/ 1 of 2 suspects sentenced for attempted robbery at Palms Internet Cafe], ocala.com, Ocala Star-Banner (Apr 30, 2013)</ref><ref name="washtimes_listicle">[https://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/collection/good-guy-gun-stopped-bad-guy-gun/ 11 times a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy, saving lives], ''Washington Times'' slideshow listicle</ref>
|-
|Mar 25, 2012
|Jesse Gates
|Spartanburg, S.C.
|Jesse Gates went to his church armed with a shotgun and kicked in a door. But Aaron Guyton, who had a concealed-carry license, drew his gun and pointed it at Gates, and other parishioners then disarmed Gates.<ref>[http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/17251517/churchgoers-subdue-gunman-at-spartanburg-church ''Fox Carolina'' March 25, 2012]</ref>

|-
|May 2–3, 2009
|Calvin Lavant, Jamal Hill
|Atlanta
|Lavant and Hill broke into an apartment during a party and forced everyone to the floor. After they gathered various valuables, and separated the men and the women, and Lavant said to Hill, "we are about to have sex with these girls, then we are going to kill them all," and began "discussing condoms and the number of bullets in their guns." At that point, Sean Barner, a Marine who was attending Georgia State as part of the Marine Enlisted Commissioning Education Program, managed to get to the book bag he brought to the party; took out his gun; shot and scared away Hill; went into the neighboring room, where Lavant was about to rape one of the women; was shot at by Lavant, and shot back and hit Lavant, who then ran off and later died of his injuries. One of the women was shot and wounded in the shootout. The reporter estimates that it seemed very likely that Lavant and Hill would have killed (as well as raped) some or all of the partygoers had they not been stopped. Barner was a Marine, but was acting as a civilian, and carrying a gun as a civilian and had a CDW permit.<ref name="wapost_volokhconspiracy">[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/ Washington Post ''The Volokh Conspiracy'' October 3, 2015], Eugene Volokh</ref>
|-
|May 25, 2008
|Ernesto Villa Gomez
|Winnemucca, NV
|At about 02:25, Ernesto Villa Gomez. 30, walked into Player's Bar & Grill and starting shooting. 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother Margarito Torres were killed. Villa Gomez was shot and killed by a patron with a CDW permit, after having killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with 300 people. When Villa Gomez was reloading his semi-automatic gun, a man from Reno, with a CDW, shot Villa Gomez. The killings were apparently related to a family argument, so the shooter's intentions regarding other patrons were unclear.<ref name="wapost_volokhconspiracy" /><ref>[http://www.ktvn.com/story/8378732/three-men-killed-in-winnemucca-shooting-on-sunday Three Men Killed in Winnemucca Shooting on Sunday], KTVN TV website (May 25, 2008)</ref>
|-
|Dec 9, 2007
|Matthew Murray
|Arvada and Colorado Springs, CO
|Matthew Murray killed two and injured two at ''Youth With a Mission'' training center in Arvada, Colorado. While police were trying to track Murry, Murry went to New Life Church in Colorado Springs, killing two and injured three. It is unclear whether Murry was carrying 1000 rounds of ammunition as a peace offering. At New Life Church volunteer security worker, Jeanne Assam ran toward the line of fire, killing the shooter.<ref name="washtimes_listicle" /><ref>[https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/6-shot-at-new-life-church-gunman-2-churchgoers-dead "''Denver 7''" Dec 10, 2007] </ref>

|-
|Apr 24, 1998
|Andrew Wurst
|Edinboro, PA
|'''''Parker Middle School dance shooting''''' - At a school dance held at Nick’s Place banquet hall, Andrew Wurst murdered a science teacher, John Gillette, and wounded two classmates. The owner of the banquet hall confronted Wurst with a shotgun, and ordering Wurst to put his weapon down.<ref>[http://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/school-violence/andrew-wurst/ ''Andrew Wurst''], ''Criminal Justice Research''</ref><ref>[http://journaltimes.com/news/national/warning-signs-ignored/article_79ca5fc8-f1dd-512e-ab3d-6eda1671a681.html Warning signs ignored], ''The Journal Times'', Apr 27, 1998</ref> The dance theme was, "Had the Time of My Life".
|-
|Oct 1, 1997
|Luke Woodham
|Pearl River, MS
|At Pearl High School, Luke Woodham killed his mother by stabbing, and then proceeded to Pearl High School. He walked into Pearl High's commons, an enclosure created by the school's buildings. He then took a .30-.30 rifle from beneath his trench coat and opened fire, wounding seven schoolmates and killing two. He was subdued by assistant principal Joel Myrick, who pulled a .45-cal. pistol from his car and ordered the gunman to the ground. At that point, Woodham is reported to have said, "Mr. Myrick, I was the guy who gave you the discount on the pizza the other night."<ref>[http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136736,00.html Mississippi Gothic], Time (time.com), June 24, 2001</ref><ref>[http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/170254/how-assistant-principal-gun-stopped-school-shooter-daniel-greenfield How an Assistant Principal With a Gun Stopped a School Shooter], [[FrontPage Magazine]]</ref><ref>[https://www.patrickkphillips.com/journo/media-bias-accusations-dont-exactly-tell-whole-story-pearl-river-ms-shootings/ Media Bias Accusations Don’t Exactly Tell Whole Story], patrickkphillips.com (July 11, 2013)</ref>
|-
|}

===Canada===
(none found)

===France===
Thalys train, Amsterdam to Paris, 21 August 2015 - Ayoub El Khazzani, armed with an AKM (Modernized Kalashnikov) rifle, with 270 rounds, and a pistol was subdued by Damien A., a French banker, Mark Moogalian (French, U.S.), Chris Norman (UK), Anthony Sadler (U.S.), Alek Skarlatos (U.S.), Oregon Army National Guard Specialist, and Spencer Stone (U.S.), USAF, and an off-duty French train driver. Norman, Sadler, Skarlatos, and Stone were awarded Knights of the Legion of Honour (Chevaliers de la Légion d'honneur) by French president [[François Hollande]].<ref>[https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/21/europe/france-train-shooting/index.html 2 members of U.S. military stop Islamist attacker on train in Belgium]''CNN'', January 8, 2018</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2015_Thalys_train_attack&oldid=834187563 Wikipedia article on Thalys train attack]</ref> ''Note: The people who stopped the terrorist were not armed (until the terrorist "loaned" them his gun), but the idea is that citizens did, in fact, stop the attacker without waiting for the police to arrive.''

==Incidents in which an armed security guard or designated security individual stopped an active shooter==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Year
!Name(s)
!Location
!Details
|-
|Sep 13, 2017
|Caleb Sharpe
|Rockford, WA
|On September 13, 2017, at 10:00 a.m., Caleb Sharpe, 15, armed with a rifle and a pistol, allegedly began shooting at Freeman High School in Rockford, Washington, where he was a student. One student was killed; three students were wounded. A school employee confronted the shooter, ordered him to the ground, and held him there until law enforcement arrived and took him into custody.<ref name="fbi_report" />
|-
|Jul 30, 2017
|Rick Whited
|Gateway, CO
|Rick Whited, armed with a handgun, allegedly began shooting from his truck at passing cars along Highway 141 in Gateway, Colorado. No one was killed; no one was wounded. The shooter exchanged gunfire with two Gateway Canyons General Store security officers before fleeing the scene.<ref name="fbi_report" />
|-
|May 3, 2015
|Elton Simpson, Nadir Soofi, Abdul Kareem (accomplice)
|Garland, TX
|[[Garland, Texas shooting|'''''Garland, Texas shooting''''']] - At the Culwell Center in Garland, Texas, two gunmen opened fire outside of a Prophet Mohammed cartoon drawing contest in 2015 held by [[Pamela Geller]] at the Curtis Culwell Center, which was the venue of earlier jihadist conference. The two attackers were killed by police and security, preventing participants at the event from being killed. (May 3, 2015)<ref name="washtimes_listicle" /> An undercover FBI agent who was investigating terrorism at the venue, but apparently did not participate in stopping the attack.<ref>[https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/02/10/records-undercover-fbi-agent-near-garland-terror-attack/97740354/ Records: Undercover FBI agent was at Garland, Texas, attack] azcentral.com (feb. 10, 2017)</ref>

|-
|Sep 24, 2014
|Alton Nolen
|Moore, OK
|Alton Nolen was charged with first-degree murder in the gruesome beheading of a Vaughan Foods worker. His rampage was halted by Mark Vaughan, a reserve sheriff’s deputy and the company’s chief operating officer, who used his personal firearm to wound Nolen.<ref name="washtimes_listicle" />
|-
|Jan 31, 2013
|(unnamed attacker)
|Atlanta
|A shooter opened fire at Prince Middle School in Atlanta, Georgia. However, after wounding only one student, the suspect was disarmed by an armed guard who was stationed at the school.<ref>https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/31/us/georgia-student-shot/index.html CNN, February 1, 2013]</ref><ref name="washtimes_listicle" />
|-
|Dec 9, 2007
|Matthew Murray
|Colorado Springs, CO
|'''''Colorado Springs Church shootings''''' - Matthew Murray, killed two people early Sunday at a missionary training center near Denver and had killed two teenage sisters in the parking lot at New Life Church. New Life Church guard, Jeanne Assam shot Murray. The shooter politely assisted Jeanne Assam by shooting himself twice after being shot by Assam.<ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/us/12brfs-GUNMANKILLED_BRF.html?fta=y&pagewanted=print&_r=0 ''New York Times'' December 12, 2007]</ref>
|-
|}

==Incidents in which a shooter is believed to have planned an attack but retreated as a result of the presence of armed citizens==

These are naturally difficult to identify. Most reports are derived from confessions or investigations following an attack elsewhere.

===United States===
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Year
!Name(s)
!Location
!Details
|-
|Oct 23, 2017
|Alan Ashmore
|Multiple Locations in Clearlake Oaks, CA
|On October 23, 2017, at 11:23 a.m., Alan Ashmore, 61, armed with a shotgun and a handgun, allegedly began firing into several homes and a vehicle in Clearlake Oaks, California, killing two people, including his father, and wounding one. Another person was wounded while fleeing out of a residence window. The shooter then shot and wounded a responding law enforcement officer before fleeing in his vehicle. The shooter drove to a nearby gas station and exchanged gunfire with the vendor, who possessed a valid firearms permit. The shooter fled the scene in his vehicle and drove to another gas station where he fired more shots. The shooter then drove to a nearby winery and shot at some employees before surrendering to law enforcement officers after a short vehicle pursuit. The entire incident lasted about 30 minutes. Two people were killed; three were wounded (including one law enforcement officer and one person who sustained injuries incidental to the incident). The shooter was apprehended by law enforcement.<ref name="fbi_report" /> Of note, the gas station attendant was unable to stop the shooter, but the shooter fled the scene, which is why this incident is cited here.
|-
|Jun 11-12, 2016
|[[Omar Mateen|Omar Mir Seddique Mateen]]
|Orlando
|''Pulse Nightclub Shooting'' - [[Omar Mateen|Omar Mir Seddique Mateen]], 29, armed with a rifle and a handgun, began shooting patrons inside Pulse nightclub in [[Orlando]], Florida. After a 3-hour delay,<ref name="pulsedelay">[https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/tampa/news/press-releases/investigative-update-regarding-pulse-nightclub-shooting Investigative Update Regarding Pulse Nightclub Shooting], fbi.gov, June 20, 2016</ref> a police SWAT team exchanged gunfire with the shooter, killing the shooter. On the night of the shooting, Mateen had originally targeted Disney Springs club, near Epcot Center at about 10 PM (June 11). Based on evidence presented during a trial of Marteen's wife (in which she was acquitted), prior to going to the Pulse Nightclub, Mateen abandoned the Disney Springs attack when several uniformed police officers were at the location. Marteen then proceeded to EVE Orlando club at 12:55 AM (June 12), but left six minutes later in the face of "heavy police presence". He then used his phone to search "downtown orlando nightclubs", and proceeded to arrive at Pulse at 1:37 AM.<ref name="orlandosentinal">[http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-omar-mateen-cell-records-night-of-pulse-shooting-20180305-story.html Pulse shooter visited Disney, another club in hours before attack, widow's defense says], ''Orlando Sentinal'' (March 5, 2018)</ref> At the time, the ''Pulse Nightclub Shooting'' was widely described as targeting [[Homosexuality|homosexuals]], but at least initially, Marteen did not realize his target was a gay bar, as he is reported to have asked a security guard at the club where all the women were just before he started shooting.<ref>[https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/5/17202026/pulse-shooting-lgbtq-trump-terror-hate New evidence shows the Pulse nightclub shooting wasn’t about anti-LGBTQ hate], ''Vox'' article, Apr 5, 2018</ref>
|-
|}

===Canada===
(none found)

===Israel===
Israeli civilian communities in the "[[West Bank]]" territories ([[Judea]] and [[Samaria]]) are known to include armed civilians. Terrorists rarely attempt to infiltrate these communities.

==Incidents involving fewer than three potential victims==
(This section also includes incidents in which the armed attacker's intent was not clear; e.g., the interruption of an armed robbery.)
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Year
!Name(s)
!Location
!Details

|-
|Jun 9, 2013
|Brandon Alexander Perez
|Stanton, CA
|
72-year-old Jan Cooper saved her life and the life of her 85-year-old World War II veteran husband, who uses a wheelchair. Brandon Alexander Perez, 31, was breaking into the Cooper's Southern California home, when the grandmother fired one shot from her .357 Magnum Smith and Wesson revolver, which scared the burglar off.<ref>[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jan-cooper-calif-grandma-fires-gun-and-scares-off-intruder-cops-say/ Jan Cooper, Calif. grandma, fires gun and scares off intruder, cops say], Jan Cooper, Calif. grandma, fires gun and scares off intruder, cops say], CBS News (June 12, 2013)</ref><ref name="washtimes_listicle" />

|-
|Dec 21, 2012
|(not named)
|Phoenix
|A 14-year-old boy saved himself and his younger siblings after an armed intruder entered their home. After breaking into the home and pointing a gun at the 14, 12, and 8-year-olds, the 14-year-old fired, placing the intruder in the hospital and saving his family.<ref>[www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/23/phoenix-boy-14-shoots-armed-intruder-while-watching-three-younger-siblings.html Phoenix boy, 14, shoots armed intruder while watching three younger siblings], Fox News (June 23, 2012)</ref><ref name="washtimes_listicle" />

|-
|Dec 31, 2011
|Dustin Stewart
|Blanchard, OK
|Sarah McKinley, an 18-year-old mother saved the life of herself and her baby in Blanchard. There, a knife-wielding intruder was attempting to enter Sarah McKinley's mobile home shortly after her husband died of lung cancer in 2012. After breaking in, McKinley used a shotgun to stop the intruders, killing one suspect and scaring the other intruder off.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082716/Sarah-McKinley-Teen-mom-shoots-dead-intruder-Justin-Shane-Martin-looking-prescription-drugs.html Teen widow who shot dead home invader who 'wanted her late 58-year-old husband's meds' WON'T face charges], ''Daily Mail'', 6 January 2012.</ref>

|-
|Aug 30, 2010
|Michael O'Neal Bynum
|Decatur, AL
|A 69-year-old grandmother protected herself and her home in Alabama in 2010. After hearing a burglar break into her house, Ethel Jones fired three shots, wounding and scaring off the intruder, who was later arrested by police.<ref name="washtimes_listicle" />

|-
|Jan 6, 2015
|(not named)
|Ashtabula, OH
|A pregnant mother of two saved herself and her children after two intruders entered her home in Ashtabula, Ohio. After refusing to let the two intruders in, they broke down her back door. As they proceeded up her stairs, the shot at them, hitting one intruder and scaring them both off until police arrived.<ref>[http://ashtabulacurrent.com/pregnant-mother-of-two-shoots-home-intruder-in-chest/ Pregnant mother of two shoots home intruder in chest], Ashtabula Current (January 7, 2015)</ref><ref name="washtimes_listicle" />

|-
|Jan 2, 2006
|(not named)
|Elkhart, IN
|A would-be robber was shot in 2006 by an employee at Media Madhouse in Indiana. After the suspect entered the building holding a gun on an employee and demanding money, a second employee jumped into action and shot the suspect, saving both employees and customers.<ref>[https://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/store-clerk-shoots-would-be-robber-police-say/article_4379248b-ecb0-5053-b459-7268964b2057.html Store clerk shoots would-be robber, police say], Northwest Indiana Times (January 3, 2006)</ref><ref name="washtimes_listicle" />
|-
|}

==See also==
*[[List of atheist shooters and serial killers]]
*[[Young mass murderers]]

==References==
{{Reflist|colwidth=35em}}

{{Second Amendment topics}}

User talk:DavidB4

2020-01-09T00:41:15Z

JohnZ: /* Category clean-up */

<big>'''<big><center>[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DavidB4&action=edit&section=new Post a new message]</center></big>'''</big>
Archives: [[User talk:DavidB4/Archive 1|1]], [[User talk:DavidB4/Archive 2|2]], [[User talk:DavidB4/Archive 3|3]]
 Last change made by {{REVISIONUSER}} on {{REVISIONMONTH}}/{{REVISIONDAY}}/{{REVISIONYEAR}} 
'''Feel free to post any questions or comments here. If you don't hear back from me, try e-mailing me also.'''
 
__TOC__

== Move request ==

Hallo. I need your help to move two pages as I made errors in their titles.

One of them is "Sarah Brown Liberal Democrat".
It has been suggested I change this to "Sarah Brown (UK Politician)" as most readers are American. I just need to figure out how to do this.

The second is "Jane Samantha Fae alias John Ozimek" which should read Jane Francesca Fae. I would be very grateful if you could please shift those for me. [[User:GraceDalrymple|GraceDalrymple]]

:Yes, I saw the discussion. I have moved those two pages, as requested. Moving pages is restricted to administrators and SysOps, so it is not your fault, as if you just can't figure out how to move pages...the wiki will not let you. No need to feel bad about it!
:I am happy to help, so just let me know if/when you need further assistance. It's no trouble! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:41, 27 September 2018 (EDT)

Would you please move [[Qanon]] to [[QAnon]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:37, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
:In addition to the above, would you please move [[:Category:Christian social reformers]] for capitalization. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:58, 4 November 2018 (EST)
::Both done --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:00, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Another move request: would you please fix the spelling error in this image title (the word "official" specifically)? [[:File:Enrique Peña Nieto oficial pic.jpg]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:15, 1 December 2018 (EST)

:I think that actually may be deliberate (see: https://www.facebook.com/Enrique-Peña-Nieto-Oficial-1708563375863631). I don't mind moving it if you still think that is needed, but it is protected so someone will need to unlock it first. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:28, 1 December 2018 (EST)

::Good point -- it's probably Spanish. However, we are an English-language encyclopedia, so it might still be good to change it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:38, 3 December 2018 (EST)

:::My Spanish is very rusty, but that was my assumption. I'm fine with moving it though. Want me to ask Andy to unlock it? --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:30, 3 December 2018 (EST)

::::I would appreciate that. Thanks! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:10, 3 December 2018 (EST)

:::::Done! [[:File:Enrique Peña Nieto oficial pic.jpg]] --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:05, 4 December 2018 (EST)

::::::Would you please move this page to capitalize the "M": [[Javier milei]]? Also, please watch your email. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:03, 6 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::Moved. I just thinking about email... --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:05, 6 December 2018 (EST)

::::::::Would you please move [[Ilana mercer]] to [[Ilana Mercer]] and delete the new redirect? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:48, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Done. I have been sometimes leaving the redirects (for a while) so that new editors who don't know how to use RC can still find their pages. However, that may be unnecessary, and since I see you usually delete the redirect anyway, I will plan on just deleting the redirect in the future. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)
:Thanks! Regarding redirects, I guess it depends on the specific article. I'm fine deciding case-by-case, since redirects might be more necessary for some articles over others. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:36, 11 December 2018 (EST)
::Hello DavidB4, would you please move [[Eastern Empires vs Western Empires]] to be an essay? I would rather delete it, but it just seems like a low-quality opinion article that could just be reformatted as such. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:13, 20 December 2018 (EST)

:::Done. I was tempted to delete it also, especially considering that it seems to have been made by a disposable account. However, I was waiting to see what others thought. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:02, 20 December 2018 (EST)

While I'm reluctant to rename my "Donald Trump achievements" articles so long after creation, it probably would be a good idea to move [[Donald Trump achievements: Immigration, illegal immigration, and border security]] to [[Donald Trump achievements: Immigration and border security]]. If you agree this is a good idea, would you please do it, and would you then delete the redirect and change every link where I (or someone else) has linked it? Then, I will begin doing the 2-3 article splits I told you about. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:35, 31 December 2018 (EST)

:I agree--that is a repetitive name, so a move makes sense. I have moved the page, and clean up most of the links to the old name. However, I have a little bit of a time crunch right now, so I'm going to need to leave one thing undone: [[Donald Trump]] needs to be unlocked so the link can be updated. I can ask for the unlock later, or you can if you get there first. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:02, 31 December 2018 (EST)

Would you please move the article [[Conservative Revolution]] to the "essay" namespace? I don't want to delete it outright, but the article isn't suitable as an encyclopedia article, considering the use of second person, lack of intro paragraph, and the fact it seems to be making an argument like an essay. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:44, 1 July 2019 (EDT)
:Also, please move the article [[Edward feser]] to capitalize the guy's last name. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:16, 5 July 2019 (EDT)
::Also, do you see any problem with these articles: [[Generation Identity]], [[European New Right]]? Either way, they need formatting work. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 21:56, 5 July 2019 (EDT)

:::I see no glaring issues, on the surface, although the formatting of [[Generation Identity]] suggests that it came from a Wiki. I didn't find any problems with a standard plagiarism check. It needs some cleanup though. [[European New Right]] looks incomplete and need expansion. No glaring issues though.
:::I've moved these pages. Sorry for the wait. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:21, 5 July 2019 (EDT)
::::Thanks! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:49, 6 July 2019 (EDT)
:::::Would you please move [[Wwe roster]] to capitalize "WWE"? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:12, 10 July 2019 (EDT)

::::::Good idea. I've moved it, but left the redirect for now, so the author doesn't "loose" the page. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 02:23, 10 July 2019 (EDT)

==Hi==
hi and thank you for move sugguestion to sting. [[User:Massaq25|Massaq25]] ([[User talk:Massaq25|talk]]) 18:23, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
:Hello, and you're welcome! Do you agree? I'm open to other suggestions, I just don't think that "sting" is a sufficiently descriptive title. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:27, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
::DavidB4, I would appreciate it if you would move the page now. No need for a move tag (nobody's going to comment there anyway). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:29, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
:::Moved to [[Steve Borden]] with a redirect from "Sting (wrestler)" --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:09, 30 September 2018 (EDT)

== Quotes ==
Those quotes weren't my own, you should know that, they're from actual people. Also, if it's debatable, then please by all means...refute me. --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 02:48, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:I'm obviously not DavidB4, but I will still point out that a simple Google search shows it's very debatable: [https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2014/07/07/is-abstinence-unhealthy 1],[http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36084314/ns/health-sexual_health/t/no-sex-may-be-no-fun-it-unhealthy/#.XAKfVmhKhPY 2],[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/sex-celibacy-friendships-women 3],[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1077378/I-gave-sex-years-ago--best-thing-I-did.html 4] -- the info you added was undue weight, considering the overall size of the article, and it falsely implied that abstinence is a bad thing for your health. It appears that it is only when you really want to have sex and you don't. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:58, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::Yes, it was a very one-sided argument, which is factually questionable. Without getting unnecessarily descriptive, the body does have ways of dealing with some of the stated issues. Research is sketchy if even existent on several of the things you mentioned. Additionally, the first paragraph was written as your own, mot a quote, even though is was a direct copy-and-paste from another source. (That is by definition plagiarism--taking credit for someone else's work.) --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:03, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::: ''So what are the health benefits of sex, besides relieving stress and helping you fall asleep? Studies have shown that regular sex has a protective effect on the heart, lowering the risk of heart attack in men. For both men and women, “It increases blood flow to the genitals and probably helps the immune system,” Herbenick says. “All things being equal, it’s also fun when things are going well [in your relationship.]”
''So abstaining – especially long-term – can carry some physical consequences. In women, it can cause the atrophying of underused vaginal or hip muscles, Lindau says. Vaginismus is a common condition characterized by hypersensitivity of the muscles around the opening of the vagina, she adds. Those muscles – along with the pelvic floor muscles – are important for controlling penetration, and they need to be in a relaxed state during sexual intercourse. If they are hyper-contracted – not necessarily from abstinence itself, but accumulated fear or anticipation of the first sexual experience – sex can be very painful. “They say it feels like he’s hit a wall,” Lindausays, adding that vaginismus can be treated.''

I said refute me, but instead you give me extra arguments. Thank you so much. --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 14:20, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:Neither of us are arguing that sex is bad or harmful -- all of the articles I cited said that sex can be good, but abstinence can also be good. You're committing a fallacy by assuming that just because sex is good means that abstinence is bad.
:Unless you get STDs or anything like that from sex, it is just as good as abstinence. The articles made it clear that abstinence does not have harmful side-effects. You need to read the cited articles better. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:30, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::: I guess the only real way to settle this is to get actual data from the field. [[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 15:18, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::::Makuta, are you pushing sex outside of marriage between husband and wife in this website? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] ([[User talk:Karajou|talk]]) 15:37, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:::::No, I'm pushing for knowledge of the dangers of lifelong abstinence. But even if I was, then there's nothing you can do about it so why are you asking? --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 20:22, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::::::"''dangers of lifelong abstinence''" -- That's ridiculous, and choosing not to have sex (especially outside of heterosexual marriage) is normal, and sex outside of marriage can actually be dangerous (if there are STDs involved). Many people have been abstinent and turned out just fine. You're distorting the facts to make it seem like it's a necessity to have sex in order to be healthy, and if you don't there's a medical problem, when in reality neither option is inherently harmful.
::::::"''But even if I was, then there's nothing you can do about it''" If I'm understanding you correctly, as admins, we can do something about it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:44, 1 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::"''If I'm understanding you correctly, as admins, we can do something about it.''"

:::::::Haha! '''Can'''... --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 21:34, 1 December 2018 (EST)

::::::::Want me to turn it into a "'''Will'''"? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 21:54, 1 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::::Action without cause. To pardon is true power but you have nothing to pardon, I'm giving you no trouble. --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 22:01, 1 December 2018 (EST)

Makuta Makaveli either has an agenda, or gets his/her information from people who have an agenda to promote casual sex by making abstinence look like a "health hazard." The Atheist YouTuber "MrRepzion" also claimed that one needed to have "trial sex" to see if the two are "sexually compatible." It would help CP if the articles had information debunking these claims [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 12:08, 2 December 2018 (EST)

:Most people argue that there is "no harm" in casual sex--that has become a common claim (although some say is is risky due to STDs). Because of this, there are plentiful materials arguing that claim. However, it is much harder to find support for this claim that is is actually unhealthy to abstain by choice. I've seen a few unscientific blog posts, etc. about it, but nothing verifiable. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist (there is always someone willing to write a paper on some fringe belief which people want to hear--just look at chocolate, for example, where they like to disregard the health costs of sugar and just look at the pure chocolate, which by the way tastes pretty bad on its own) but I'm not finding proof.
:Shobson20, the "try it before you buy it" idea is certainly nothing new in personal relationships. I suspect you are correct in linking these two, as people who would like to engage in this practice would like to have something like this to point to as a defense for their actions. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:54, 3 December 2018 (EST)

== Why did I get blocked by "Minuteman?" ==

I was fixing the damage that "My password is green" was doing. I sometimes notice vandals before CP's admins do, and sometimes I try to help. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 19:23, 15 December 2018 (EST)

:I replied to your email. You did nothing wrong. Thank you for your vigilance, and I apologize for this! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:30, 15 December 2018 (EST)

::What are the qualifications for becoming a sysop on this site? I would like to be able to help by stopping the trolls and vandals who frequently attack this site. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 19:38, 15 December 2018 (EST)

:::As best I can tell, there is no official criteria. However, this page might be useful to answer some basic questions: [[Conservapedia:User_rights]]. Typically, SysOp rights are given to users who have been editing for some time, and proven themselves trustworthy. I don't think there is a specific checklist that you can do, to get these rights. However, the one responsible for promotions is [[User:Aschlafly]], so you might be able to get a better idea from him as to what he specifically looks for. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:59, 15 December 2018 (EST)

I too have just been blocked by {{user|Minuteman}}. I copied over the WP article for [[anarcho-conservatism]], which the WP zealots are about to delete. The text there is mine, though most of the article is still in quotes from references, as more text is needed (hence why I brought it here). — [[User:WisdomTooth3|WisdomTooth3]] ([[User talk:WisdomTooth3|talk]]) 00:17, 1 January 2019 (EST)

:You were blocked for one hour so we could review what you were doing, because you were importing a page from WP which looked a bit like plagiarism. Since it is your own writing, then you may recreate that page, but it could use some improvements. Namely, the quotes themselves can use work, as they do not provide context. If you intend to make further improvements to the page, then we welcome our efforts! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:29, 1 January 2019 (EST)
::Per [[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]]'s suggestion, recreated it [https://www.conservapedia.com/User:WisdomTooth3/Sandbox/Anarcho-conservatism here]. Not sure when I'll be able to improve it. Please feel free to chip in. — [[User:WisdomTooth3|WisdomTooth3]] ([[User talk:WisdomTooth3|talk]]) 03:20, 2 January 2019 (EST)

:::Thank you! I am not a subject matter expert on that topic, so I don't know how much help I can be, but I will look it over later. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:32, 2 January 2019 (EST)
::::By the way, it is probably not helpful for the article to link to itself. Unless they point to a specific part of the page, they should probably be removed. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:42, 2 January 2019 (EST)

== Merge proposal ==

What do you think about this merge request: [[Talk:Carbon cycle (astronomy)]]? I am inclined to support it, but it's probably a good idea to get more than one opinion on it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 11:32, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:I've never really studies that specific topic, but the proposal sounds fine to me. I looked up "carbon cycle" and found a great deal of information, but on the wrong topic. From my limited understanding, a merge sounds like a good idea. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:30, 29 December 2018 (EST)
== tag at bottom of pages "quotation templates" ==

Many of the content pages I create use quotes of other web content. At the bottom of the articles I created using quotes, there is a tag at the bottom of the pages indicating "quotation templates". This is a new and unwanted development.

For example, please look at the bottom of this web page: [[Atheism and mental illness]].

Can we get the "quotation templates" tag to not be there. Before they never used to be there. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 21:37, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:I made a small mistake, but cannot fix it until [[:template:cquote]] is unlocked again. I'm sorry about that--I should have noticed sooner. Someone needs to add the "noinclude" tags to the category link. If someone unlocks the page, I will fix the issue. Again, sorry about that! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:23, 29 December 2018 (EST)
::I unlocked the page.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 23:25, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:::Thanks, I believe I fixed it. You can lock it again. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:36, 29 December 2018 (EST)
::::Thanks for fixing the issue. I appreciate it.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 23:37, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:::::Any time! Thanks for pointing it out! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:46, 29 December 2018 (EST)

== Request ==

Would you please check [[Alejandro Garcia Padilla]] for originality? It could be, but many of the refs are formatted like on Wikipedia. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:34, 30 December 2018 (EST)

:Of course! It definitely originated from WP. Slightly edited, but still copied. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_García_Padilla --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:12, 30 December 2018 (EST)

::You beat me to it. Obvious copy from WP, with slight alterations. You don't need to check reference format; just check the text. [[User:SamHB|SamHB]] ([[User talk:SamHB|talk]]) 20:19, 30 December 2018 (EST)

:::Would you please delete all the portions that are copied? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:42, 30 December 2018 (EST)

::::I'll take another look, but I think the whole thing needs to go. Also, this is not the first time. See: [[User_talk:HectorCruz66#Originality]] --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:45, 30 December 2018 (EST)
:::::Oh, and I didn't mean to ignore you, Sam. Thanks for checking also! You're right--just looking at the pages shows all you need to know. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:54, 30 December 2018 (EST)
::::::Deleting it, then, is the best option. Would you please do that? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 21:22, 30 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::Sure. I'm still looking at it, but sure, I'll delete it unless I find a reason not to. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:37, 30 December 2018 (EST)

Would you please check the page [[James Ritchey]] to see if there's anything problematic (in general, not just originality, since it's two sentences long)? If there's nothing, I guess we can keep it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:45, 17 January 2019 (EST)

:Well, he exists. It seems he's a small-time actor who has been in a few movies I've never heard of, and is barely active on YouTube. This does seem to be relatively original text...all two sentences of it.
:So on to the negative, I firstly find the wording "internet celebrity" rather questionable. I don't see anything suggesting that title. I could be missing something, but from what I'm seeing, he looks more like a wannabe celebrity. Each of his youtube videos has between 1K and 7K views. Assuming those views were not farmed, that still seems a ways away from the numbers a celebrity would have. He second most viewed video seems to be review of a water bottle....I didn't watch it to find out if it is sponsored.
:I suspect he is trying to make a name for himself, which slots this "article" into a suspicious category anyway.
:Bottom line, there is nothing blatantly wrong, but I see why you were questioning it. This smells fishy. I'd be included to nuke it for a lack of notability, but I'm okay with keeping it. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:31, 17 January 2019 (EST)

::Oh, and a couple search engines (at least Yahoo and Yandex [and therefore DuckDuckGo]) have already crawled this page, and added it to the first page of results from searching his name. I used a clean OS and browser, so no user history bias there. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:44, 17 January 2019 (EST)

:::If you think that page is an advertisement (which is very likely), then I am perfectly fine deleting it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:18, 17 January 2019 (EST)

::::Ok, I think I'll delete it then. Too many suspicious factors. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:44, 17 January 2019 (EST)

Assuming we should keep this essay (I shouldn't jump to conclusions), it should be moved so we have a colon: [[Essay History of racism and the Democrats]]. Unrelated, there's no mention of how Reconstruction Democrats passed gun control laws to prevent black people from engaging in self-defense. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:48, 18 January 2019 (EST)

:I hadn't gotten the chance to review it yet. I'm moved the page, but I think it might be helpful to keep the redirect for the moment. This seems like a reasonably good essay, so I'm find with keeping it. I will send you an email shortly. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:29, 19 January 2019 (EST)

Hello DavidB4, I am wondering if any of these images would be acceptable for me to upload (regarding licensing): [https://twitter.com/VP/status/1085692630246350848][https://twitter.com/scavino45/status/1010232867501363200][https://twitter.com/vp/status/1010293228619419648] Also, I am wondering if you know of any free images of the Trump Administration deployment of troops along the border with Mexico late last year? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:18, 20 January 2019 (EST)

:Hi, Twitter is always a little iffy, but these are probably okay. Firstly, images made by an employee of the U.S. government as a part of their duties are automatically in the Public Domain. Secondly, a number of other users here republish twitter images under "Fair use." The first one is ideal, so if this is the case as it looks, use one or more of them for this reason.
:I do not know of any images of troops at the border, and couldn't find any good ones after a quick check. I will look a little more later. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:06, 20 January 2019 (EST)
::Thanks! Would you please look over this image to make sure there aren't any problems? [[:File:Donald Trump Angel Families.jpg]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:46, 21 January 2019 (EST)

:::Any time! I do find it a little questionable that Pence took that photo. However, if it was one of his aids, it is still PD. However, if it was taken by the press, it is probably not. I don't know if there is a way to find out who actually took it, since this is a Twitter post. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:05, 21 January 2019 (EST)

::::I don't know where to find who took the picture. I'm assuming it's his office, since I don't see why his office would rely on the media for such a picture.

::::Also, I don't know where else to find a picture of this specific event. I checked the White House's Flickr page, among other pages, but couldn't find anything. If you are able to find a better image, I would appreciate it (you don't have to, though). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:11, 21 January 2019 (EST)

:::::I'm not having much luck either. Let's just go with what you have. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:50, 21 January 2019 (EST)

::::::OK. I wish it were easier to find a free picture of this event, but oh well. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:01, 21 January 2019 (EST)

:::::::Considering all of the cameras in that room, it does seem surprising. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:05, 21 January 2019 (EST)
:::::::Oh, second person to the left of Trump is Pence, so he definitely was not holding the camera :) --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:08, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Hello DavidB4, would you please check the newly-created article [[Athanasio Celia]] for originality, and to make quality improvements if you have the time? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:10, 9 February 2019 (EST)

:Hello, it looks like this is a (perhaps slightly revised) copy of an old version of the WP page on the subject. I did not dig through WP, but I'm seeing matches to here: [https://www.amazon.com/Athanasio-Celia/e/B07BG9GB3J%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share] which is an Amazon page quoting WP, and here: [https://en.everybodywiki.com/Athanasio_Celia] which is probably plagiarism as well. This was not a complete match anywhere my tools saw--more like a 30% match or so. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:40, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::Do you think it should be deleted? Either way, the page has formatting/copyedit issues. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:41, 9 February 2019 (EST)

:::It looks like WP deleted it, but "everybodywiki.com" saved a copy. It looks like we should delete it unless we can verify that the original author was the one to post it here. It is worth finding that out first, as it is not uncommon for us to get rescued paged from WP editors. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:49, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::::While we're waiting for the above page to get sorted out, would you please move the page [[Indian struggle]] to [[The Indian Struggle]]? Also, there should probably be a [[Indian Struggle]] page. This whole thing is a mess right now. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::::Also, if you would take a look at this page, I would appreciate it: [[Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)

:::::I am very busy right now, but have moved that page as requested. I will deal with the other issues soon. If I don't do so within a week, feel free to remind me. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)

::::::Oh dear....Okay, some of that page might be original, but at least some parts, including the fact list are definitely not original. That list is all over the internet. This page: [https://www.libertynation.com/ocasio-cortez-and-the-nazi-connection/] is one possible place this may have come from, but if you take a look at a web search of the any one "fact," you will see that that it is all over the place. It's going to be hard to nail down where it actually came from. In any case, we should challenge it. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:05, 12 February 2019 (EST)

== Page improvement ==

Hello DavidB4, it might be worth taking a look at and moving this article: [[Template:Examples of Liberal Bias]]

I think it should probably be moved to a mainspace article or at least have its formatting improved. For example, the template is transcluded in the [[Liberal bias]] article, and if you look at the table of contents, starting at the first "See also" section and below, the template transclusion messes things up. Of course, whether we move this article to mainspace or simply do some formatting fixes, it's going to take some work to get this done. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:44, 28 January 2019 (EST)

:I see what you mean; it is as if someone wanted this to both be a template and a standalone page. It must be one or the other. If it was unlocked, I think I could fix it to work properly as a template, but it would not be a good standalone page. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:50, 29 January 2019 (EST)
::It looks better to me. What do you think...Have I missed any issues? --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:27, 29 January 2019 (EST)
:::Looks good to me! The only issue is the double space below the template, as you can see at the [[Liberal bias]] article -- this isn't a big deal, though. It seems to me that the "See also" link on the template is kind of useless (unless someone directly accesses the template, and considering the [[Examples of Liberal Bias]] redirect, that might happen). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:56, 29 January 2019 (EST)
::::Good point, I'd missed that spacing issue, but I think I've fixed it now. That see also link is not included when the page is transcluded, but only shows on the template page itself. I figured that was a reasonable compromise. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:36, 29 January 2019 (EST)
:::::I think it is a reasonable compromise -- thanks! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:21, 29 January 2019 (EST)

== Article move request ==

It might be worth considering moving [[Jane Samantha Fae]] to [[Jane Francesca Fae alias John Ozimek]] -- that's what User:GraceDalrymple did, but how she did it was very poor, simply blanking one page and creating the other one, and she didn't make the first page a proper redirect. For the record, this page appears to be of someone born a male and who now identifies as a woman, so the current female name title may not be appropriate. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:00, 2 March 2019 (EST)
:I'm willing to make the move, but this name makes it sound like "John Ozimek" is the alias, while "Jane Francesca Fae" is the real name. Jane should be first in such a page name, though, since that's probably what someone is going to search for. If I was making the page, I would probably just call it "Jane Francesca" or else put something parenthetical afterwards, like "Jane Francesca Fae (John Ozimek)". If you think "Jane Francesca Fae alias John Ozimek" is best, though, I'll do it. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:40, 2 March 2019 (EST)
::I'm thinking it should simply be moved to his real name, John Ozimek, just like the [[Bradley Manning]] and [[Bruce Jenner]] articles were done. [[User:Northwest|Northwest]] ([[User talk:Northwest|talk]]) 23:16, 2 March 2019 (EST)
:::Tempting, as we all know that's he still is. However, his legal name is now "Jane," so I'm not sure if we should leave that out altogether. We could. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:58, 3 March 2019 (EST)

::::How about this: [[John Ozimek (Jane Samantha Fae)]]? --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:48, 3 March 2019 (EST)

Would you please take a look here: [[Talk:Newfoundland]]? This article might have to be moved. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 18:55, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

:Confirmed, that's the name now, so I moved it. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:13, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

== Great work! ==

Great work in adding those references to [[benefits of capitalism]]!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 13:30, 28 March 2019 (EDT)
:Thanks! It could use some more work, but it's progress. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:40, 28 March 2019 (EDT)

== [[World History Study Guide from 1648]] ==

This article contains a wrong info. "(1923) created the modern state of Turkey, with a combination of military rule and an elected Parliament; also converted the Arabic language to a modern, Latin-style alphabet". Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a Turk and he converted the Turkish language to Latin-style alphabet. Please correct it. Thank you. - [[User:Andrewlee|Andrewlee]] ([[User talk:Andrewlee|talk]]) 15:45, 10 April 2019 (EDT)

:I know very little about that page or the history it speaks of, but that page is locked from editing by anyone other than full administrators, so I cannot make this change in any case. You could try asking [[User:Aschlafly]] or [[User:Karajou]] for assistance with this. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:29, 10 April 2019 (EDT)
==Image upload requests==
I requested to upload several images for an essay I am writing and have gotten no reply. Can you please help me? --[[User:ProudGator|ProudGator]] ([[User talk:ProudGator|talk]]) 09:30, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

:Hi, I noticed your request, and I will get to it. Typically, requests are taken in the order they are received, and we have a substantial backlog of request right now. I will do these two soon, but in the future, I will take them in order to be fair to the others making upload requests. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:55, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

::I've uploaded three of them. However, the last one you requested is owned by National Geographic, which specifically states that we cannot republish their content. (See [[CP:IUR]] for more information.) --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:27, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

== Image upload ==

If yo could upload one of the images I linked to on Andrew Schlafly's talkpage that'd be great! [[User:JohnSelway|JohnSelway]] ([[User talk:JohnSelway|talk]]) 17:56, 18 April 2019 (EDT)
:Sure: [[:File:Jacinda Ardern, 2018.jpeg]]
:If you need any more done, feel free to add the request to the bottom of [[Conservapedia:Image upload requests]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:00, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

== Look at this edit ==

Please look at this edit: [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia&diff=1519161&oldid=1516763 DavidB4 and Conservapedia]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 13:39, 24 April 2019 (EDT)

:Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:37, 24 April 2019 (EDT)

==Bay of Pigs switch==
Should the page [[Bay of Pigs]] actually be [[Bay of Pigs invasion]]? One is a place, the other is a historical event. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 14:56, 5 May 2019 (EDT)

:Yes, this should be clarified--thanks for pointing it out! This is a large page with many contributors, so I've put the move template on it as a prior announcement. If no one objects or makes other suggestions, I will move it soon. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:24, 5 May 2019 (EDT)

::Sounds good to me. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:27, 5 May 2019 (EDT)

== Editing question ==

Hi DavidB4 and the others!

I just created an account a few days ago and have been doing some adding of pages and editing. Unfortunately, I think I might have gotten a little carried away and did some editing to a page that wasn't mine (Romulus Augustulus, the last Roman emperor) without taking time to check up on editing etiquette. So that I know for future reference, is it generally expected that you shouldn't do significant editing without talking to the original author first?

My apologies to the author; I hope you'll forgive it as just a case of over-enthusiasm.

-Teakin88

:Hi Teakin88, Welcome to Conservapedia! 
:I see nothing unfortunate about some initiative to improve an article--good work! If you are going to make a major point-of-view change, or do something potentially controversial, it would probably be a good idea to first ask on the respective article talk page. If no one objects, then go for it. For general, non-controversial expansions like this, there shouldn't typically be any need to ask. It should also be noted that no one really "owns" articles. There are some articles in which a single editor has made a significant investment (1990'sguy and the [[Donald Trump achievements]] articles come to mind). In those cases, would probably be the courteous thing to do to ask before removing, changing, or contradicting preexisting content. Also, if you plan to change the perspective of an article (i.e., changing the Donald Trump article to say he's a traitor, lair, and jerk) you should probably ask first. However, in most cases, you can just go ahead and make improvements where you see the need. If someone disagrees with an edit you made, they will probably revert that edit and let you know. In that case, respect the senior editor, talk to them, and come to some agreement. I hope this clarifies the matter. If in doubt, it never hurts to ask. Contrary to popular belief, it's often better to ask for permission than forgiveness. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:58, 8 May 2019 (EDT)

::One extra thing -- even for non-controversial changes, I strongly recommend always citing reliable sources. This is helpful as they increase CP's reputability, and they are helpful for readers who want to research a certain topic further in-depth. Thanks for your edits, Teakin88. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:17, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

:::A very good point--yes, please include references. If you used any sources, even just for a basic understanding of the subject, they should always be cited. If you do not have any, I still suggest you do a little research, and find a good source which supports what you are writing. Common knowledge does not need to be cited (i.e. "red is a color") but when you are making an assertion which some reads may not have already known, try to cite it. It shouldn't be particularly difficult, just list the source, such as a URL, and perhaps the date you retrieved it. You are welcome to use any formal citation style, but you are not required or expected to do so. Most editors just paste the link inside of <code><nowiki><ref> </ref></nowiki></code> tags after the statement being referenced. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:10, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

==Historical revisionism and revisionism==
These two pages [[Revisionism]] and [[Historical revisionism]] are basically the same topic and ought to be merged under the banner of the second. I'll start expanding the revisionism page into general themes afterward. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:32, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

:That sounds good to me. I'll be a bit busy for the next 4-5 days, but I will merge these when I get the chance. If you want, feel free to move over the valuable content from [[Revisionism]] yourself, and make is page a redirect. Otherwise, I'll do it when I can. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:16, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

::Done: [[Historical revisionism]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:33, 14 May 2019 (EDT)

== Email is bouncing ==

I sent a message to your email, and it bounced. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 12:41, 14 May 2019 (EDT)

:That's odd! I checked over things on my end, and everything seems to look right. Are you attempting the address listed on my user page? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:51, 14 May 2019 (EDT)
:I was able to send a test message there successfully. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:38, 14 May 2019 (EDT)
::I used the address on your user page, and I get a message from "Mail Delivery Subsystem <mailer-daemon@googlemail.com>" that says "Message not delivered
There was a problem delivering your message to davidb4-cp@archnet.us. See the technical details below, or try resending in a few minutes.

The response from the remote server was:
550 Mail to davidb4-cp@archnet.us has been suspended" [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 16:58, 16 May 2019 (EDT)

:::Oh, that's my old address. It now bounces emails due to spam. Sorry for the trouble! I changed that public address last December. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:07, 16 May 2019 (EDT)

== Thank you! ==

Thank you for recreating [[User:Ahmed Samoa|my user page]]! [[User:Ahmed Samoa|Ahmed Samoa]] ([[User talk:Ahmed Samoa|talk]])

== A communist troll ==

A Communist troll who first used the Username "MarxistLeninist" is repeatedly making sock accounts and just won't get the message and go away. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 22:54, 14 July 2019 (EDT)

:Thanks for the tip. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:37, 15 July 2019 (EDT)

== Mormons are Christian. ==

Hi, I was reading the page about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I am LDS (Mormon) and this article contains false things about the Church. It quotes Dr. James White, a Christian pastor, who is NOT MORMON and has written many anti-Mormon articles. White does not understand what the Church is about and he claims Mormons are not Christian. We are Christian! People like White and others from mainstream Christian churches misunderstand the doctrines of the LDS Church! I am a convert to the LDS church and there are SO many misconceptions about the Church, things taken out of context and distorted. It's disappointing that a site like this would perpetuate these false accusations. I would like to be able to edit the article if I could, since I am an actual Mormon. I don't know how to go about doing that.

Thank you,

Cindy

:It's understandable that you want to support your church, but why are you trying to isolate Dr. White? You've reduced his contributions to virtually nothing. [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Monday, 13:04, 22 July 2019 (EDT)

::Thanks for reaching out! I am not personally an expert on Mormonism, so I might not be the right person to ask. However, I will be blunt with you: it seems that Mormonism is classified by many as cult for good reason. For example:
::*The Bible says that there is only one God (for example, see: Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 45:5). Mormonism, however, says that:
::**there are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163)
::**There is a mother goddess (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443)
::*The Bible teaches that God is an eternal, infinite being, who created man in His (spiritual) image, but was never himself a man. Mormonism teaches that:
::**God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
::**"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22)
::**God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
::**"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
::Furthermore, it teaches that after you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354), which is outright blasphemy. This sounds like what is written in Genesis 3:5: "For God knows that when you eat from [the tree] your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil," which was spoken by Satan.

::Mormonism is based on Christianity, but so is Islam. Adding new things to Christianity and abrogate parts of scripture is pretty much what cults specialize in. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:17, 22 July 2019 (EDT)

== Article move requests ==

Should the article [[The mossadil]] be kept? If so, please move it to [[The MossadIL]]. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 10:49, 7 August 2019 (EDT)
:Initially, this sounded rather like something not notable enough to have an article. However, the account has over 115,000 followers at present. That sounds like a high number, although of course followers can be farmed. Honestly, I pay very little attention to Twitter...do you think that compared to the rest of Twitter, this is notable enough to keep? I find it a little odd having a page about a twitter account, but I'm okay with keeping it. If we do, though, I wonder if a more descriptive name might be better. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:21, 8 August 2019 (EDT)
::115,000 followers doesn't seem that high to me. Trump has over 62 million followers, John Bolton is nearing 700,000, and Matteo Salvini and Nigel Farage of Europe both have over 1 million (see [[Essay:Top conservatives on Twitter]]). If the article is notable otherwise, that's fine, but I don't think the number of followers makes it notable. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 05:41, 9 August 2019 (EDT)

:::Ok, then I say delete it. It might be a good twitter account, but I don't see anything else that makes it notable. There is also a web store behind this account, so there is some monetary motivation for promotion. The account that wrote this CP article is probably not a single-use promo account, but rather probably a good-faith editor. However, I don't think this qualifies as something worth publishing a page about. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:38, 9 August 2019 (EDT)

::::Thanks for deleting.

::::Also, would you please move the newly-created [[Emu war]] article (created, I think, by the same user) to capitalize the "w"? Also, this article needs a massive amount of improvement, and I don't have time at the moment to do so. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:56, 9 August 2019 (EDT)

:::::Good suggestion. As I guess you already noticed, I expanded it somewhat and moved it per your request. There is a great deal more which could be written about this topic, but at least the basics are there for now. Also, I think I will go ahead and make the History category you tried to use. That seems like one which could be useful. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:43, 12 August 2019 (EDT)

== Help:I've been blocked by Minuteman for creating Fredogate page ==
Can someone please help so I can improve the page I started? I've been blocked by Minuteman for creating Fredogate page. No explanation was given and I find his censoring very frustrating since this incident some media personalities call Fredogate, is widely covered in youtube.--[[User:Bearbrau|Bearbrau]] ([[User talk:Bearbrau|talk]]) 19:15, 14 August 2019 (EDT)
:My apologies for that--you did nothing wrong. You were automatically blocked for a 2-hour duration so that we could review your activity—it was nothing personal. Conservapedia gets its fair share of vandalism and internet trolls, so we need to be careful. I noticed this issues and unblocked you seven minutes later, but not before it was an inconvenience. (You were only able to post on our talk pages because you were unblocked.) You may continue where you left off, and should have no further trouble of this sort. If you have any specific questions or concerns, fell free to contact me by email. However, you should be all set to proceed, and this will not be counted against you. Again, Sorry about that! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:26, 14 August 2019 (EDT)

== Two questions/requests ==

Hello DavidB4, would you please take a look at the article [[Mainstream conservative]]? I don't know if this page is to be kept, but it would need significant reworking as it seems rather opinionated. Maybe it should be moved to the "essay" namespace?

Also, would you please keep an eye on the draft [[User:RobSteff/Slovakia]]? It seems like the editor wants to redo CP's [[Slovakia]] page, but some of the intro wording [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Slovakia&oldid=910323397 mirrors the WP article] way too closely. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:20, 18 August 2019 (EDT)

:Hi 1990'sguy!
:I rarely see [[Mainstream conservative]], [[movement conservative]], populist conservatives, etc. well defined in comparison to other types of conservatives. If the content here is accurate (I have not verified it, but have no specific reason to doubt it), I think there could be some value in keeping this. As you say, though it will of course need at the very least to be wikified, and should really have some references. It could be considered a subjective explanation and thus an essay, but I think this could be done as a standard article. We do also have an article for [[Movement conservative]]s already, so this might fit in where it is, given a little more work. Do you disagree, though?

:I will also try to keep an eye on the Slovakia article...good idea. It seems promising that this users replied to your comment about copyright/copy-and-paste. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:38, 18 August 2019 (EDT)

::Also, I will note that I'm not sure if Mainstream conservative should focus quite so much on Trump support/opposition. Trump certainly is getting people to show their true colors, but this seems better suited as a separate example, rather than the main point of discussion. Trump will, either in 2020 or 2024, leave office, but chances are, the concept of mainstream conservatives will continue, so I would prefer to see our article on this being more about principles than support/opposition of one person in 2016-2020. I'll post this on that article's talk page as well. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:53, 18 August 2019 (EDT)

==Move request==
Can we move this [[Essay:Rich Man and Parable of Talents]] to [[Parable of the Talents]]? For the most part (with some minor editing) this could be an actual useful article instead of yet another editorial. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:45, 19 August 2019 (EDT)
:I'm generally happy to help move things, but as this is Andy's Essay, I wonder if perhaps he should be asked first. Generally, essay space offers special allowances and exceptions which mainspace does not. At present, this piece reads more like an essay than an encyclopedia article, so it would need a little editing if it was moved. If he is fine with this, then sure...I would be happy to move it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:48, 19 August 2019 (EDT)

In the meantime (and not to distract from the above), would you please move [[:Category:British royal family]] to capitalize the last two words? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:01, 19 August 2019 (EDT)
:1990'sguy: Good suggestion--I've moved it as you asked. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:38, 19 August 2019 (EDT)
::Thanks! Would you please also look at the move request at [[Talk:Kosice]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 11:22, 24 August 2019 (EDT)

:::Thanks for pointing that out! I used to be able to monitor all activity on CP, but my availability has decreased such that I can only check retroactively for highlights now. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:14, 24 August 2019 (EDT)

== Article assessment ==

Hello DavidB4, would you please take a look at the newly-created article [[Cruz Derangement Syndrome]]? Is it notable enough to keep, and if so, would it need any other improvements? Also, while I generally like Cruz (with certain exceptions such as trade and his support for a liberal appellate judge in 2014), I know that CP "officially" takes a more critical stance toward him. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:20, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

:Hi 1990'sguy, ''I might step on some toes with this reply, but here goes--don't take this the wrong way.'' I was looking at that earlier, and have been thinking about it. Of course, it needs some style fixes, and some categories. As for the content, this seems more like a joking or borderline humor article/essay, rather than an encyclopedia article, but then again, [[Trump Derangement Syndrome]] does to some extent as well, but we still have that. Some people do have a very strong reflexive response to Cruz which does in many cases seem somewhat unjustified, so I think this may be valid thing to write about in some form.
:The fact of the matter is that neither of these "syndromes" are actual medical conditions or syndromes--this is hyperbole. I question whether that belongs in an encyclopedia, and particularly, the title of an article. Then again, we also use a similar tactic sometimes in reference to scandals (or should-be scandals) by throwing "gate" on the end of it (i.e. [[Obamagate]], [[Muellergate]], [[Climategate]], etc.) which can itself seem rather unprofessional. Basically, I don't like the hyperbole/clickbait title--it seems gimmicky. However, there is something here to be written about, and this will probably fit right in among the others I mentioned (and many more I didn't) --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:44, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

::At least in the case of TDS, that's a term that is now common among conservatives, so it's not like CP made up the term when creating the article. I'm not sure about the other articles you mentioned, but I never heard of the term "Cruz Derangement Syndrome" before seeing this article. However, I won't delete the article and will improve it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:00, 6 September 2019 (EDT)

:::Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention, then...I've never heard the TDS term anywhere other that CP. I guess I can go either way on CDS. I don't like the terminology, and I generally don't like inventing terms. However, I have no problem with writing about this opposition to Cruz, in some way. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 10:42, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
::::Actually, it looks like CDS isn't quite a new term either: [https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Cruz+Derangement+Syndrome] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 10:48, 6 September 2019 (EDT)

What do you think about this article: [[Team plasma]]? It doesn't seem notable to me, but maybe it can be kept? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:35, 8 September 2019 (EDT)

:I agree, it doesn't seem particularly notable. If we keep it, it should be renamed, but I'm not really convinced it is worth having around. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:25, 8 September 2019 (EDT)

::I just deleted it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 07:49, 9 September 2019 (EDT)

:::Also, I don't know how much you know about this technology company, but do you think the recent edits on this article are positive (I think they probably are, but I want to make sure): [[AMD]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 13:41, 9 September 2019 (EDT)

::::Thanks. I think those edits were well-intentioned. There was a little bit of an oversight there (the posted market share only included one of two types of product), but I corrected it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:07, 9 September 2019 (EDT)

How should we deal with this article: [[Joel gilbert]]? It's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&oldid=914351777 a copy of a particular version of the Wikipedia article] (compare with even earlier diffs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&oldid=747121431][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&oldid=912556288]) -- an editor tried to change (or revert?) the article to his liking, was reverted, and brought his version here. Besides the capitalization error ("gilbert"), is the article appropriate to keep here? I'm leaning delete, but I'm not sure since it isn't the current or accepted Wikipedia version. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:32, 10 September 2019 (EDT)

:If it was all original content, I would seriously consider keeping it. However, certain parts were not written by this individual. If we chop out the plagiarized parts (everything not added in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&type=revision&diff=914351777&oldid=914306698 this edit]), this isn't going to be a very good article, since the intro paragraph is the first to go. Either a rewite of these portions is needed, or unfortunately, the whole thing needs to go.
:There are also a few typographical errors (such as the title you pointed out, "'''eared'''" rather than earned, etc.) and a few other improvements which could be made. However, these are not worth making unless the plagiarized material is removed. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:19, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
::Would you please make those changes (assuming you have the time and will to do so--if you don't, that's OK)? I'm devoting my CP time right now to work on my Donald Trump achievements project and would rather not spend much time on maintenance work. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:54, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
:::Are the editor's changes sufficient? Upon his request, I deleted the old article title, so please see [[Joel Gilbert]]. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 13:22, 23 September 2019 (EDT)
::::Also, in addition to my comment above, I am wondering (assuming you have the time to do so) if you can find any other free images of Trump's meeting with Hungary's prime minister [[Viktor Orban]] this May,[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trump_amerikai_eln%C3%B6k_%C3%A9s_Orban_Viktor_magyar_minisztereln%C3%B6k.jpg] including on Twitter, Facebook, or wherever. I could only find this image, and I'm not sure even about that because it was uploaded only a few days ago by an apparently new editor and doesn't show licensing information. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:15, 23 September 2019 (EDT)
:::::Apologies, I've been quite busy lately. Most of Joel Gilbert looks pretty good now, but the first paragraph is heavily plagiarized. IF that gets re-written, then we should be all set. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:21, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

:::::As far as photos go, it looks like most news outlets are using Getty Images. They buy a copy of the photo, then own it royalty-free. That means that if we could find a new outlet with a loose copyright policy, we could use it. Unfortunately, most of them have a TOS document a mile long adding prohibitions on top of U.S. copyright law. The only thing I found was [https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/05/13/president-trump-welcomes-prime-minister-of-hungary-viktor-orban-to-white-house-video-and-transcript/ this], which does not seem to have a set of TOS. This means that only copyright law applies, and theoretically, we could use it under the Fair Use clause. Do you agree? Does that look and sound good enough? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:33, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
::::::I don't know much about copyright law, so I will trust your and Andy's judgments on this. If there aren't any better images, that one is what I will upload. Thanks for checking! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:36, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

:::::::Well, I'm no expert on copyright law either...I'm learning as I go. Actually though, here is one which would be legally safer to use, and doesn't have mics in the frame: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trump_amerikai_eln%C3%B6k_%C3%A9s_Orban_Viktor_magyar_minisztereln%C3%B6k.jpg] Maybe you were looking for something other than what WP/MW have though. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:41, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
::::::::That is the same image that I linked above -- I found it before messaging you, and I asked you if you were able to find other images because this one was uploaded only a few days ago by a new user and doesn't include licensing information. Because of that, I don't want to upload the image, at least until I'm confident it's OK to load. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:48, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

:::::::::Opps, so you did. I looked at it briefly, then went on the hunt. I forgot to check back to make sure that what I found was different. They claim it is under CC, so if you take that at face value, great. However, that's a good point that it may or may not be true. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:56, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

::::::::::If it's uploaded by an experienced editor with believable documentation, I trust it, but if it's a brand new user with poor evidence of proper licensing, I don't trust it. The user linked to some Hungarian website to show where he found the source (the link is a dead link) and claims it's from the website. It could be true, though I can't find any corresponding U.S. government photo. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:19, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

Good point. It looks like the [https://web.archive.org/web/20190514152046/https://www.hirado.hu/kulfold/kulpolitika/cikk/2019/05/14/hasonlo-vilagnezetet-kepvisel-donald-trump-es-orban-viktor file did exist there], but I can't tell anything about licensing, since I don't speak Hungarian. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:28, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
:Google Translate or something could help, and I'll try to do it later when I get the time. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:57, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
::Under the photo, it says this: "Viktor Orban and Donald Trump (Photo: MTI / EPA / Solid Costumes)" -- does this mean anything of note? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:06, 20 October 2019 (EDT)

:::I figured it was something like that. It doesn't really mean a whole lot to me, but maybe a little. They are crediting the photo to "MTI / EPA / Solid Costumes" which means that it is probably not in the Public Domain. Often, they will use copyrighted photos by permission or contract, so that is probably what is happening in this case. However, I don't know who "MTI / EPA / Solid Costumes" is, so I can't very well track it down. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:37, 20 October 2019 (EDT)

::::OK, thanks. I probably won't upload this image, partially because of the uncertainty over copyright. In addition to this, is this article appropriate to keep: [[Henry ward]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:07, 21 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Never, mind -- that "Henry ward" article is apparently a fake/parody article. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:59, 21 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::Okay. "No" is generally the safe option, so if in doubt, it's a good default answer. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:25, 21 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::Is this article appropriate to keep, or should it be deleted: [[Polarity technologies ltd]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:02, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::::Nope. I deleted it. The language made it clear that this was an advertising attempt. If they want to make a more fair, unbiased attempt I'll consider it. That, however, was just an ad in the form of a wiki page. I do like that they used a few third party sources, but it still was too one-sided and promotional. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:02, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::::Do you think this article should be deleted, or not? [[Black pigeon speaks]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 12:48, 8 November 2019 (EST)

It looks a bit like a content dump, and was clearly written by someone not familiar with wiki markup language. This makes it seem more like a ad attempt. However, "Black pigeon speaks" seems to be a legitimate entity online who may be somewhat notable. He has 500k Youtube followers, and 63.6K BitChute followers (both platforms seem to offer the same content). Of course, such numbers can be farmed to some extent. However, he does seem to be at least somewhat conservative based on my very brief research. I could go either way on this article. If we keep it, if obviously needs some clean-up. What do you think? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:46, 9 November 2019 (EST)
:It definitely needs cleanup. I'm still not convinced it's notable to keep since some YouTube personalities have several million followers. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:23, 10 November 2019 (EST)

::Yeah, he doesn't seem like anyone particularly notable and differentiating. He might be doing good stuff, but I don't know if that really warrants a CP article about him. This probably stands to benefit him more that our readers. I think I'm leaning towards deletion, but I'd be okay with keeping it if others here see value in it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:51, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:::I recommend deleting it. At the very least, maybe we should let Andy decide? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:49, 10 November 2019 (EST)
::::Alright, sure let's delete it. We could ask Andy just to make sure, but it's probably okay to just do it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 11:58, 11 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Without getting distracted from the above article, can you tell whether this article is original or plagiarized? [[The Genesis observer theory]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:23, 12 November 2019 (EST)

It was copied from CreationWiki [http://www.creationwiki.org/Genesis_observer_theory]. That page was mostly written by one author, but some adjustments were made by two others. Plagiarism seems likely, but I will contact the user on this end. I applied for a CreationWiki account awhile back, but it seems my application was rejected or ignored, so I can't ask over there. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:31, 12 November 2019 (EST)
:Note: It was mostly written over there by user "PabloCa2007." The user posting it here is "Pablocastro" --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:33, 12 November 2019 (EST)
::Just based on that, it looks like the page is mostly original, but we'll still need to reach an understanding with the creator (and I saw you already reached out to him). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:37, 12 November 2019 (EST)

== Thank you! ==

Hey David, just wanted to say thanks for the welcome and the advice on the joel gilbert article. Definitely don't wanna mess up anything so I'll go back and fix it! :) I might need a bit of help with the infobox if you wouldn't mind but I might be able to figure it out. Anyhow thank you so much! Feel absolutely free to let me know if anything needs adjustment
[[User:Manny P90|Manny P90]] ([[User talk:Manny P90|talk]]) 14:57, 13 September 2019 (EDT)Manny

:You're welcome, and thank you for your interest in improving it! One thing still concerns me..the first paragraph doesn't seem to be original. Could you perhaps re-write that intro? As for the template, I'd be happy to try to help you, but our inforbox template is significantly different that Wikipedia's, so you can't do a a simple copy-and-paste of that. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:38, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

== New WP articles ==

Hello DavidB4, when you get the chance, please take a look at these two articles: [[Malik Obama]] and [[Dreams from My Real Father]]. The editor who created them stated that they were copied from Wikipedia articles that have been deleted (thus, they may not be original). I already wrote a very short message to the user. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:10, 3 October 2019 (EDT)

:Hi 1990'sguy, I noticed those come in, but didn't have the time to investigate then. At the very least, they need cleanup, but I also am suspicious of their originality. There are similarities between [[Malik Obama]] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Barack_Obama#Malik_Obama this], and [[Dreams from My Real Father]] looks like a slight rewrite of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams_from_My_Real_Father this], although it could be the other way around. They at least need some cleanup; I'm leaning towards deletion, but this user has responded in the past, so it could be this is slightly more than just a dump and run maneuver. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:11, 4 October 2019 (EDT)
::Would you please also take a look at this article: [[Nicholas J Fuentes]]? It might not be appropriate to keep on CP. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 10:53, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

:::I don't see any evidence of plagiarism, and it isn't a wreck like some text dumps, so that's a good start. My main concern is with the matter of notability. It seems that he is somewhat publicly recognized, although he doesn't seem to have a great deal of publicity. He also seems to be in this to make a profit--that's not inherently bad (many talk shows and publications are for-profit endeavors, which I don't mind), but it is worth noting that by giving him some much-needed publicity, we may be helping out his profit margin. Based on these factors, I might lean towards deletion. However, while I don't want RW to decide what we do and do not have, I noticed that they do have an article about this guy (although I didn't bother to read their pig slop). What do you think? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:01, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

::::I made some copyedits, though the title might need to be moved. We could keep it, though the wording might need to be changed to make it sound less promotional. Also, I'm having trouble determining whether he's a consistent conservative or an "alt-right" person, though it looks like the former is more accurate. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:58, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::I don't know much about him, and all I can find seems to be name-calling, ad hominem attacks, etc. which are loaded with bias. I will somewhat take back what I said about not much publicity...after digging a bit more, I have found a quantity of the standard liberal attack pieces against him, saying things like "Well, he said on Thursday that he is not a white supremacist and opposes violence, but actually the opposite is true, and random democrat xyz says that he is trying to play the victim here, and not simply being attacked for his views."
:::::It seems he had to leave his college because of these attacks, death threats, etc. after making his political views known. 'm starting to think maybe we should keep an article about him. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:41, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::That sounds good to me, so I'll accept keeping the article, though it may need further improvements. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:11, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

The [[Malik Obama]] and [[Dreams from My Real Father]] still haven't been edited by the article creator. What should we do with them? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:15, 15 October 2019 (EDT)

:I've deleted them. If the author disagrees, they can be restored by an admin. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:18, 17 October 2019 (EDT)

== Cult leader Adnan Oktar ==

Hi. Could you please upload a picture of [[Harun Yahya|Adnan Oktar]]'s old and new look? I found this picture: [http://www.mavikocaeli.com.tr/resimler/iste-adnan-oktar-in-karanlik-gecmisi-unlu_11038318_39_fe5ee97f1d33bbc62e23.jpg]. Search results: [https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSvWCIzFVBVujBE79-3Cfj1nZt-hA%3A1570459097293&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=625&ei=2U2bXcWiD6SorgS-uanwDQ&q=Adnan+Oktar+eski&oq=Adnan+Oktar+eski&gs_l=img.3..35i39l2j0i30l3j0i8i30.1823.15117..15325...1.0..0.173.2613.0j17......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0.AJMOrW1Xhl8&ved=0ahUKEwiF84CFsIrlAhUklIsKHb5cCt4Q4dUDCAY&uact=5]. If you want, you can upload an old and a new photo of him side by side. Thanks. - [[User:Andrewlee|Andrewlee]] ([[User talk:Andrewlee|talk]]) 10:42, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
:Conservapedia needs to follow copyright laws. Please upload this picture: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adnan_oktar_01.jpg

:I would do it myself, but I have a very full schedule today.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:58, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

::I'll certainly upload this one, Wikignome72. See: [[:File:Adnan oktar 01.jpg]].
::Andrewlee, If we can find a copy of the other which is under a [[Creative Commons]] license, or is in the [[public domain]], that would be good. We might be able to use a copyrighted one under the [[Fair use]] clause, but that is more difficult.
::My favorite places to search for images with relaxed licensing are:
*[https://commons.wikimedia.org Wikimedia commons]
*[https://www.flickr.com/search/?license=2%2C3%2C4%2C5%2C6%2C9 Flickr.com]
but there any many others also, such as these:
*[https://pixabay.com PixaBay]
*[https://morguefile.com Morguefile.com]
*[http://www.publicdomainpictures.net PublicDomainPictures.net]

::Let me know if you have any luck. Thanks!

== Requesting help with article about our ministry. ==

David, can you help me? I'm trying to edit a page on my organization, Global Media Outreach, which seems to be frequently vandalized. We didn't even add the page on us; just came across it while researching something. When I first found it it was completely negative. Some organization called Billion Bibles seems to have a criticism with us, so I edited our page and just put forth the gospel as we share it on the page so that people can make their own judgment about whether or not we have some kind of deficient version of it (we don't). Last month, the criticism reappeared as a link to the BillionBIbles organization again. They seem desperate to both link to themselves from anyone searching Conservapedia for info about us and to smear us. I don't want to publicly criticize them, just to remove their unjustified criticism of us. Thanks for any help or advice you can provide! [[User:Abranch|Abranch]] ([[User talk:Abranch|talk]]) 13:55, 16 October 2019 (EDT)abranch

:I've heard of BillionBibles before, but know almost nothing about them. However, the article on Global Media Outreach seems to only briefly mention some opposition. The linked BillionBibles page criticizes Global Media Outreach for teaching the "four spiritual laws" which they believe tends towards the "Health, Wealth, and Prosperity Gospel" and leaves out any mention of God's call (and [[predestination]], as some believe) as well as a couple other points. [https://www.billionbibles.com/four-spiritual-laws.html]. These seem like they might be valid criticisms to at least note. Our article as it was simply stated that there was some opposition to Global Media Outreach, without subjectively declaring it to be wrong, so it seems that we were already leaving it up to the reader to decide what to think. I'm also somewhat confused as to why you removed the word "some," making the page basically say that all Christians say that your organization is wrong. I've fine with some rewording or explanation, but I think it is worth keeping some mention of doctrinal disagreements. Conservapedia is read and edited by people of many different beliefs, so we generally try to present both view points and let the reader decide. It sounds like this is what you wanted, and it seems to me, that is what we are doing. Furthermore, the [[Internet_evangelism#Global_Media_Outreach|Internet_evangelism]] page (to which you deleted the link) speaks favorably of Global Media Outreach. I have reverted both of these changes, since they seem to make the problem you are speaking about worse.
:Is there something I'm missing here? If the article is being unfair to Global Media Outreach, then I would be fine with trying to balance it out--I just don't see any specific glaring issues. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:04, 17 October 2019 (EDT)

David, regarding your note on the 16th—you were right. There were edits on the article mentioning us that were telescoping somehow and when I tried to edit one it wouldn't let me because it affected another. I didn't understand and was out of time. So—user error; I'm afraid I'm not a regular contributor, I just try to watch out for slander on us, and this site is about the only example of it I have found on the web. Sometimes slander shows up in overt ways, sometimes subtle. Just look at Wikipedia's article on the Apostle Paul, which includes "Among the critics of Paul the Apostle was Thomas Jefferson, a Deist, who wrote that Paul was the 'first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.' Christian anarchists Leo Tolstoy and Ammon Hennacy take a similar view." That's bad enough, because it makes the reader feel as if the page ahs an agenda; but imagine if it were the first point in the entry, as "Criticism of Global Media Outreach" is for us.

:Okay, some little mix-ups are fine. However, I'm not quite sure what you are looking to have changed. I have slightly reworded and expanded the "[[Global_Media_Outreach#Criticism_of_Global_Media_Outreach|criticisms]]" section..what do you think? I don't think we should remove this section altogether, but some changes can be made. In any case, it doesn't really sound like slander to me, as it currently stands. There are many different denominations and doctrines within the christian faith, so it is pretty normal for some to criticize others on certain controversial issues. Thanks for your input! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:21, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Why was my edit reverted? I know I messed up the citation link thing but I'm new to this. I just think harm reduction is very important. If, for some reason, someone comes here for info on LSD they should know about something that is pretty common and could ruin their experience.
[[User:Yaoi|Yaoi]] ([[User talk:Yaoi|talk]]) 08:52, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

:You deleted a significant amount of content (over 2KB) with that edit. See: https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=LSD&diff=prev&oldid=1589093
:Your addition was probably fine, but make sure not to remove everything else. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:01, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

==Thomas Heyward==
These should probably be merged. [[Thomas Heyward Jr.]] [[Thomas Heyward]]. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 21:53, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:Yeah, it should be. Good catch. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:16, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::I've merged them. The result is here: [[Thomas Heyward Jr.]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:26, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

==Delete and move==
Could you delete [[Georges Sorel]], and move [[George Sorel]] in its place? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 10:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:I did it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 11:08, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::You're welcome! Just a note, you will have to do Teakin88's [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Community_Portal&diff=1590504&oldid=1561721 requests] at [[Conservapedia:Image upload requests]], since they are not WP Commons images. Otherwise, I would have tried to upload them if I get time (which I don't have a lot of, like you I presume). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:18, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::Thanks, yes [[CP:IUR]] is a disaster right now. I may never catch up. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:21, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::If I get some extra time, I will upload some of the easier requests. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:24, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::Thanks! I wouldn't mind, but those are not the big problem, so you don't need to. It's nice when we get some that are PD/CC so I can just breeze through them! It's the copyrighted ones that are a problem. I do my best, but it takes a lot of time and I really am not professionally qualified to make this kind of determination. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:36, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I'm considering giving PD/CC requests priority over copyrighted images. People are submitting requests for images that are obviously okay to use, but then waiting months to get them uploaded. It's not really fair to them. I might abandon the first-come, first-served system. I don't know if this would be fair either, though. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:39, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::::It seems like a good idea to me. How many users are requesting PD/CC images versus more complicated requests? If more are requesting the former, but IUR is being backlogged by one or two other editors, prioritizing seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:54, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::::Also, it might be a good idea to archive the completed request sections on IUR. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:02, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
At present, we have 1 person regularly asking for PD/CC and two people asking for copyrighted ones. That means this change would mostly benefite that one person. However, in the past (and once in a while) we've have a number of other users (maybe about 4) asking for PD/CC images as well. Not recently, though. Besides, though who make good requests tend to get upload rights of their own. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:45, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

==Disambiguation==
Could you make [[Samuel Huntington]] into a disambiguation page for [[Samuel P. Huntington]] and [[Samuel Huntington (signer)]]? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 12:51, 24 November 2019 (EST)
:Good idea--thanks for pointing that out! Done as requested. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:21, 24 November 2019 (EST)
::Thank you for doing these BTW. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 20:41, 3 December 2019 (EST)

==Merge request==
[[Cato's Letters]] and [[Cato Letters]]. The correct term/name is '''"Cato's Letters"''',(And [[Cato's Letters]] appears to me to be the better written) but there is some issue with the page views and history/revisions of the two articles that needs consideration. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 22:45, 2 December 2019 (EST)
:Also, could you switch these? The 'The' is a part of the actual title. [[American Crisis]], [[The American Crisis]] [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 22:49, 2 December 2019 (EST)
:Of course! Done as requested: [[The American Crisis]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:04, 3 December 2019 (EST)
::Cato's Letters? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 20:41, 3 December 2019 (EST)
:::Sorry, now I'm doing it. I guess I just read the last post, and assumed the rest was prior conversation. It wouldn't have been that hard to read it...
:::Anyway, I've merged the two to [[Cato's Letters]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:09, 4 December 2019 (EST)
::::Thanks! [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 17:49, 12 December 2019 (EST)

== Permission to use images for conservapedia via e-mail permission from image owner ==
Hi DavidB4, I've worked to create an eighth page here on conservapedia. On my eighth page there are 4-5 sections that need the emphasis of photo info-boxes to elaborate visually to the article from a scientific and creative stance. Images have been granted permission to me for use on conservapedia with no inhibited copyright laws per the image creators via e-mail. These e-mails were the only convenient way to gain permission because of the image owners location and time zone in Finland and in Europe with myself being in North America Pacific time. [[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] suggested for me to contact you here about you being an editor who can upload with these e-mail permissions or if I can forward permissions to you, and that you might be willing to have to contact via email with me on this page request for these uploads? Thank you. ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 23:16, 10 December 2019 (EST)

:Hi Technotronical! Sure, I can help you with that. That's great that you already got permission! Would you please forward the email chain where they gave permission to me (davidb4-public@archnet.us)? Then, I'll just need to know exactly which images it is you want uploaded (if you have the URLs to these images, that would be best), and I should be able to upload them for you. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 12:27, 11 December 2019 (EST)

:Hi DavidB4, Thank you very much for your help with these. I've sent you the 2 e-mails to (davidb4-public@archnet.us) Please let me know if you need anything else or what I can do to help. Here's the page https://www.conservapedia.com/Red_Hair --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 20:51, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::Hi Technotronical, I sent you a couple emails in reply on December 12. Did you get those? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:07, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::: Hi DavidB4, I just searched through my e-mail under the address and for that date 12/12... and do not see anything for an e-mail response. Could you please re-send or respond here? --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 21:25, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::::Odd. I just resent them. You should have received a total of 3 messages from me today. Maybe they are getting caught in your spam trap? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:12, 19 December 2019 (EST)

:::::Yes, very unusual. Thanks for re-sending. I still don't have them and looked in the SPAM quarantine folder. Building the anticipation. Can you please resend to another e-mail address? (mom2lexie_bing_maddie@yahoo.com) --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 23:44, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::::::Done. If that doesn't work, I'll just post an abbreviated version here. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:28, 21 December 2019 (EST)

::::::: Thank you so much for hanging in here with me. I did get the e-mail at my yahoo inbox. I just replied back. Merry Christmas!!! --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 23:32, 24 December 2019 (EST)

:Slightly off topic, What was the reason that Minuteman blocked Technotronical? I honestly don't know if there's a back story. Just asking. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:16, 27 December 2019 (EST)
::I'm obviously not DavidB4, but I'm pretty sure the block has nothing to do with Technotronical or his edits -- the bot blocks users based on whatever criteria is programmed into it, and that means that sometimes, innocent editors are blocked. It's happened before. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:07, 27 December 2019 (EST)

'''Technotronical:''' I got your email and will reply soon. I have been very busy lately. Also, sorry about Minuteman blocking you without a good explanation. 
'''Progressingamerica/Technotronical:''' Minuteman blocked Technotronical because it detected numerous questionable words and phrases being posted on [[Red Hair]], [[Blockbuster Video]], and [[Let's Make a Deal]]. These were mostly sexual in nature. I am willing to provide details which are not appropriate for polite company, but not on an open talk page. There were also evidences of possible plagiarism going on with [[Red Hair]], so Minuteman didn't like that either. I have set Minuteman to "Trust" Technotronical, so it will be much less likely to issue blocks against this user in the future. 
'''Technotronical:''' I am seeing some material in [[Red Hair]] which seems to have been copied in. I see duplicate content on pages like:
*https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/melanocortin-1-receptor
*The book "Advances in Cancer Research" by Paul B. Fisher and Kenneth D. Tew
*https://www.definitions.net/definition/red+hair
*and of course, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair
Except for short, clearly labeled quotes, you should never use the exact words of other people. Additionally, you should always cite your sources, for any facts or ideas retrieved from other places. 
'''1990'sguy:''' Thanks for the quick response! Again, I've been quite busy the last few weeks. In this case it was a large number of slightly questionable things which triggered Minuteman initially. After blocking a user once, it is more likely to do it again. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:32, 28 December 2019 (EST)

==Delete request==
The misspelling "seige" should not appear in the search bar when typed in. Unless, of course, it is for someone's last name and is then the correct spelling. [[Seigenthaler]]

*[[Seige mentality]] - delete
*[[Seige of Troy]] - delete
[[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 17:50, 12 December 2019 (EST)

:Good catch! I've deleted them. I also created a redirect from [[Siege of Troy]]. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:18, 12 December 2019 (EST)
::Thanks! Here's another one for delete and move. [[Chisholm v. Georgia]], [[Chisolm v. Georgia]]. The misspelled one should probably be kept for content, and the one I created deleted; then move to the correct spelling. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:12, 27 December 2019 (EST)
:::Done! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:42, 28 December 2019 (EST)

::::Thanks 1990'sguy! I've also deleted the [[Chisolm v. Georgia]] redirect, since I don't think that will be beneficial to keep. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:33, 28 December 2019 (EST)

== Giggle Corp ==

Please see these pages: [[User talk:AmericanIronMan]], [[User talk:AmericanTonyStark]], [[Giggle, Corp.]] (red link, see deletion history), and [[Giggle, Inc.]] (red link, see deletion history) You might have a better idea than me on whether this article is notable enough to have an article on. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:08, 2 January 2020 (EST)

:"Giggle Corp" appears to be a small business (not sure if it's registered as such), and mygiggle.us has been online for less than two months. It's definitely not a big player right now, but it wants to be. The website still seems a bit rough around the edges. Before I make a solid decision, I'm hoping that I can engage this user in conversation. I have a few questions and suggestions for them. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:07, 2 January 2020 (EST)

::Sounds good. I wish Conservative didn't block the first account without engaging with him. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:10, 2 January 2020 (EST)

:::Well, he came back so we still can talk. It looks like he's using a proxy connection, which is technically against the rules...then again having a second account is, too. I think he stands to gain a lot more than we do, since we will quite possibly put his service on the map. That means this subject probably falls into the "not sufficiently notable" category. Still, I'm hoping to talk with him. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:36, 2 January 2020 (EST)

::::Thank you sir, for your kind inquiry. I am not trying to necessarily take on Google. Google has its own legitimate following. I am trying to simply offer an alternative to major companies for individuals who would like to maintain a degree of privacy. In a world that is changing so fast, I believe that one of the things that helps us preserve our freedom is our privacy. Privacy should be an option for those who would like to maintain it. It is encouraging to me that there are outlets such as "Conservapedia" that share some of these same ideals. You are correct, our website is new, however it has been in development for three years now. The first very ugly version of it was hosted on a different domain but with the same concept being the respect of privacy of user information. As far as the question you thought might be "stupid", there are no stupid questions and I am grateful for the opportunity to clear up any confusion as to any connection to that Facebook account. Let me make it clear that we are not associated with that user or his affiliates. And as to feedback regarding the website mygiggle.us, any input you have we would greatly appreciate, as we consider your time extremely valuable. Thank you for your consideration and your time. --[[User:AmericanTonyStark|AmericanTonyStark]] ([[User talk:AmericanTonyStark|TALK]]) 20:24, 3 January 2020 (EST)

And thank you for the information! I think such alternatives are valuable. In hopes it will help you out, here is some (hopefully) constructive criticism:

It's great that you are interested in protecting your users' privacy. However, I did find a few things that gave me pause. I suspect your Terms of Service and Privacy Policy might have been made from a template, so perhaps it was not you saying these things.
#Your Privacy policy says that you "may" use web beacons. Why? This is a tracking technology, which seems to go against user privacy.
#Your Privacy policy says that you ignore "Do-not-track" requests. Admittedly, most websites do. You have the standard statement that there is no established industry standard, so you choose to ignore the users' requests for privacy altogether. It's a minor concern in my mind, but it doesn't sound very privacy-friendly. You could at least make sure to set a high privacy standard for all uses, then note in your privacy policy that all users are given the same high standard of privacy, whether or not they request it.
#Your Privacy policy says that you use cookies, but again, most people do. My question (which I did not investigate) is whether or not you use them for any purposes other than logging in users. Cookies must be used if users are going to log in to accounts. However, my concern would be whether or not they are used for any other purpose. Ideally, I would like to see cookies only added to client's devices when they log in. If they don't log in, don't issue a cookie. This might be hard to make happen though--I know web design is complex.
#Your site uses Google Tag manger. If I'm trying to stay away from companies abusing my data, using an alternative site which in turn uses Google services doesn't seem like it might be a good choice.

Other issues I noticed:
*The top-left logo has a background color which does not match the banner it is on. Perhaps you could use an image without a background. That shouldn't be too difficult, but even easier than that would be to at least change the image's background color to match the banner's color, so people don't notice.
*When the "clustered search" option is used, it brings up a list of "F-Clusters." This whole interface seemed a little confusing to me. What is it? How does it work? What does it do? Perhaps a little explanation of some sort, even just in the form of a "Help" link on that search result page might be helpful.
*When looking at your Privacy Policy, there are links at the top of the page to jump to specific section. That is a common thing to have, and I like it. However, when I click on one of those, it breaks out of your site's frame and loads this webpage instead: https://app.termly.io/dashboard/website/305072/privacy-policy

And a couple more comments:
*You are using CloudFlare, which is in itself fine. They seem to offer good services. However, you might want to be aware that they have "de-platformed" numerous conservative services and websites. If they don't like you for political reasons, they will throw you out. You probably won't have issues of this sort, but you might just want to keep that in mind.
*Lastly, your Terms of Service state that anyone other than government agencies and a couple other groups of people must get written approval from you in order to link to your website. Firstly, I don't see how you expect to enforce that. Secondly, why? If low-ranked websites link to you, are are not likely to be benefited in terms of your own page rank. However, this is how the web works...if you want to get noticed, you need people, anywhere and everywhere, to link to your site. It seems odd to me, therefore, that you are trying to prohibit such linking (not that anyone is actually probably going to read that anyway).

I hope your service can succeed! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:05, 4 January 2020 (EST)
::Thank you for your timely and helpful response. I have to say, you are obviously knowledgeable and thorough, and your input is greatly appreciated. So, Thank You again. I have reviewed your comments regarding the company’s privacy policy (and terms and conditions) and agree with you on every point. I have gone through your list point by point though I still have a few changes to make. I have revised the privacy policy according to the points you recommended. I made the policy using a template and the assistance of termly.io, and there was a point in which I was prompted to answer the question, “Do you want to allow people to link to your website?” At that time, I thought there would be more protection for the site if people did not link to it. As time went on and development of the site continued, I came to the same conclusion as you did, that I would like people to link to the site. My mistake was that I had not returned to my Terms and Conditions to change this. If it wasn’t for you it would have been some time before I would have gone back and reviewed it. --[[User:AmericanTonyStark|AmericanTonyStark]] ([[User talk:AmericanTonyStark|TALK]]) 18:21, 7 January 2020 (EST)

:::Okay, that sounds good--thanks! When choosing a service to use, I typically dig into the service's info some before making a decision. I know that tends to be unusual--most people don't bother to read the TOS, Privacy Policy, and other info. So, it probably isn't a big deal to have a few minor issues of these sorts, as long as you are disclosing everything you need to. Building a web service like this is a pretty big undertaking, so it's easy for a few unimportant things to slip through the cracks.
:::I figured that you probably were using a template or builder for the TOS and PP. It makes sense to do. If you have the time and interest, you could also go so far as to provide short, standard English section summaries. So for example, the section on cookies could perhaps be summarized "We use cookies to keep you logged in. We do not use them to monitor your behavior." I've seen this in some such legal disclosures, so that the full legal jargon is still there, but a simple explanation is also provided. Again though, not many people read those, so it may not be worth your time at this point.
:::In regard to your initial question (whether you can create a page on Conservapedia about your service), it's not me intent to string you along and waste your time. To be clear, I don't think that at this time your service is "notable" enough to warrant this. An encyclopedia is intended to be a collection of public knowledge, not an index of things people probably know nothing about. However, I think with some time and effort, it can soon qualify.
:::There is one other thing I'd like to tell you, but not on a public page such as this. You don't at all need to, but would you be willing and able to email me at davidb4-public@archnet.us ? (This way, you don't need to publicly post your address.) If you prefer not to, that's fine.

:::Thanks for your time! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:20, 8 January 2020 (EST)

== Category clean-up ==

Best of luck with [https://www.conservapedia.com/Category:Firearms firearms TAR pit]. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 22:01, 4 January 2020 (EST)

:I haven't looked into it very closely, but some of those sub-categories might be appropriate to delete outright. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:16, 4 January 2020 (EST)

::Gee thanks, JohnZ. 1900'sguy, they might be. I haven't delved too far into it yet, but I suspect so. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:33, 4 January 2020 (EST)

:::Rather you than me down that rabbit hole. Little help, though: you can delete the [https://www.conservapedia.com/Category:Battles_Rifles Battles (!) rifles category]. I [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=M1_Garand&curid=5210&diff=1612016&oldid=1429076 removed] its only entry. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 19:41, 8 January 2020 (EST)

== Article review ==

Would you please take a look at this article? [[Origin point]] -- it may need to be moved to an essay, or otherwise improved. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:44, 6 January 2020 (EST)
:I'm okay with having this kind of an article in mainspace, but it should be expanded. Also, the tumbleweed needs to go. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:03, 6 January 2020 (EST)

== New article requests ==

Hello DavidB4, looking through your TAR removals, I noticed that several red links to what should be obvious articles do not have an article. For example, [[Water cycle]] and [[Nitrogen cycle]], as well as [[Cascade Range]] which I just created. If you're willing, as you do maintenance on the various articles, would you please look for red links to what a reasonable person would consider an obvious/prominent article for an encyclopedia? I'm not asking you to create them, but just to document them so that every obvious encyclopedia search has an article. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:57, 6 January 2020 (EST)
:Good idea, sure I'll at least make note of them, and try to work from there. I probably can't make too many pages on such topics, but its worth paying attention to. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:12, 6 January 2020 (EST)

M1 Garand

2020-01-09T00:32:08Z

JohnZ: amend cat.

[[Image:m1garand.jpg|thumb|right]]

The '''M1 Garand''' rifle was the standard infantry rifle for the US Army and US Marines before and after the [[Second World War]] and also during the [[Korean War]]. Designed in the early 1930s by Canadian inventor John Garand, the M1 was issued in 1936 and by the year 1941, it became the standard front-line rifle in almost every branch of service. After the war, Garands became available to the public through the Civialian Marksmanship Program. The rifle fires .30-06 rounds from an 8-shot en-block clip. The Garand was the only semi-automatic standard issue rifle during World War II and it gave American troops a distinct advantage over their enemies during that conflict.

General [[George S. Patton]], one of the greatest heroes of [[World War II]], praised the M1 Garand thusly: "In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised."<ref>Bill Shadish [http://www.fulton-armory.com/tea/article11-98.htm The M1 Garand in Cyberspace ] Nov 1998</ref>

Due to political considerations involving America's joining [[NATO]], the US military shelved the M1 Garand, replacing it with the experimental T44 rifle (in the 7.62 mm NATO chambering) as the [[M14]]. The M14 was a modernised version of the M1 with a larger, detachable magazine, improved ergonomics, more reliable mechanism and (in early versions) selective fire capability. The M1 Garand is still held in high esteem by civilian firearms advocates within the United States, and regularly used for competitive shooting, and is well-regarded as a [[Homeland Defense Rifle]] (HDR).

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:M1 Garand rifle}}

[[Category:Battle Rifles]]
[[Category:.30-06 Rifles]]
[[Category:.30-06 Ammunition]]
[[Category:7.62 mm Firearms]]
[[Category:Rifles of the United States]]
[[Category:Rifles of the Cold War]]
[[Category:Sniper Rifles of the United States]]
[[Category:World War II Firearms of the United States]]
[[Category:Cold War Firearms of the United States]]
[[Category:Rifles of the Cold War]]
[[Category:Rifles]]
[[Category:Long Guns]]
[[Category:Firearms]]
[[Category:Investments in Tangibles]]
[[Category:Survivalism]]
[[Category:Home Security]]
[[Category:Self-Defense]]
[[Category:Military Strategies and Concepts]]

User talk:DavidB4

2020-01-05T03:01:48Z

JohnZ: /* Category clean-up */ new section

<big>'''<big><center>[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DavidB4&action=edit&section=new Post a new message]</center></big>'''</big>
Archives: [[User talk:DavidB4/Archive 1|1]], [[User talk:DavidB4/Archive 2|2]], [[User talk:DavidB4/Archive 3|3]]
 Last change made by {{REVISIONUSER}} on {{REVISIONMONTH}}/{{REVISIONDAY}}/{{REVISIONYEAR}} 
'''Feel free to post any questions or comments here. If you don't hear back from me, try e-mailing me also.'''
 
__TOC__

== Move request ==

Hallo. I need your help to move two pages as I made errors in their titles.

One of them is "Sarah Brown Liberal Democrat".
It has been suggested I change this to "Sarah Brown (UK Politician)" as most readers are American. I just need to figure out how to do this.

The second is "Jane Samantha Fae alias John Ozimek" which should read Jane Francesca Fae. I would be very grateful if you could please shift those for me. [[User:GraceDalrymple|GraceDalrymple]]

:Yes, I saw the discussion. I have moved those two pages, as requested. Moving pages is restricted to administrators and SysOps, so it is not your fault, as if you just can't figure out how to move pages...the wiki will not let you. No need to feel bad about it!
:I am happy to help, so just let me know if/when you need further assistance. It's no trouble! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:41, 27 September 2018 (EDT)

Would you please move [[Qanon]] to [[QAnon]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:37, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
:In addition to the above, would you please move [[:Category:Christian social reformers]] for capitalization. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:58, 4 November 2018 (EST)
::Both done --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:00, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Another move request: would you please fix the spelling error in this image title (the word "official" specifically)? [[:File:Enrique Peña Nieto oficial pic.jpg]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:15, 1 December 2018 (EST)

:I think that actually may be deliberate (see: https://www.facebook.com/Enrique-Peña-Nieto-Oficial-1708563375863631). I don't mind moving it if you still think that is needed, but it is protected so someone will need to unlock it first. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:28, 1 December 2018 (EST)

::Good point -- it's probably Spanish. However, we are an English-language encyclopedia, so it might still be good to change it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:38, 3 December 2018 (EST)

:::My Spanish is very rusty, but that was my assumption. I'm fine with moving it though. Want me to ask Andy to unlock it? --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:30, 3 December 2018 (EST)

::::I would appreciate that. Thanks! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:10, 3 December 2018 (EST)

:::::Done! [[:File:Enrique Peña Nieto oficial pic.jpg]] --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:05, 4 December 2018 (EST)

::::::Would you please move this page to capitalize the "M": [[Javier milei]]? Also, please watch your email. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:03, 6 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::Moved. I just thinking about email... --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:05, 6 December 2018 (EST)

::::::::Would you please move [[Ilana mercer]] to [[Ilana Mercer]] and delete the new redirect? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:48, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Done. I have been sometimes leaving the redirects (for a while) so that new editors who don't know how to use RC can still find their pages. However, that may be unnecessary, and since I see you usually delete the redirect anyway, I will plan on just deleting the redirect in the future. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:29, 11 December 2018 (EST)
:Thanks! Regarding redirects, I guess it depends on the specific article. I'm fine deciding case-by-case, since redirects might be more necessary for some articles over others. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:36, 11 December 2018 (EST)
::Hello DavidB4, would you please move [[Eastern Empires vs Western Empires]] to be an essay? I would rather delete it, but it just seems like a low-quality opinion article that could just be reformatted as such. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:13, 20 December 2018 (EST)

:::Done. I was tempted to delete it also, especially considering that it seems to have been made by a disposable account. However, I was waiting to see what others thought. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:02, 20 December 2018 (EST)

While I'm reluctant to rename my "Donald Trump achievements" articles so long after creation, it probably would be a good idea to move [[Donald Trump achievements: Immigration, illegal immigration, and border security]] to [[Donald Trump achievements: Immigration and border security]]. If you agree this is a good idea, would you please do it, and would you then delete the redirect and change every link where I (or someone else) has linked it? Then, I will begin doing the 2-3 article splits I told you about. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:35, 31 December 2018 (EST)

:I agree--that is a repetitive name, so a move makes sense. I have moved the page, and clean up most of the links to the old name. However, I have a little bit of a time crunch right now, so I'm going to need to leave one thing undone: [[Donald Trump]] needs to be unlocked so the link can be updated. I can ask for the unlock later, or you can if you get there first. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:02, 31 December 2018 (EST)

Would you please move the article [[Conservative Revolution]] to the "essay" namespace? I don't want to delete it outright, but the article isn't suitable as an encyclopedia article, considering the use of second person, lack of intro paragraph, and the fact it seems to be making an argument like an essay. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:44, 1 July 2019 (EDT)
:Also, please move the article [[Edward feser]] to capitalize the guy's last name. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:16, 5 July 2019 (EDT)
::Also, do you see any problem with these articles: [[Generation Identity]], [[European New Right]]? Either way, they need formatting work. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 21:56, 5 July 2019 (EDT)

:::I see no glaring issues, on the surface, although the formatting of [[Generation Identity]] suggests that it came from a Wiki. I didn't find any problems with a standard plagiarism check. It needs some cleanup though. [[European New Right]] looks incomplete and need expansion. No glaring issues though.
:::I've moved these pages. Sorry for the wait. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:21, 5 July 2019 (EDT)
::::Thanks! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:49, 6 July 2019 (EDT)
:::::Would you please move [[Wwe roster]] to capitalize "WWE"? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:12, 10 July 2019 (EDT)

::::::Good idea. I've moved it, but left the redirect for now, so the author doesn't "loose" the page. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 02:23, 10 July 2019 (EDT)

==Hi==
hi and thank you for move sugguestion to sting. [[User:Massaq25|Massaq25]] ([[User talk:Massaq25|talk]]) 18:23, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
:Hello, and you're welcome! Do you agree? I'm open to other suggestions, I just don't think that "sting" is a sufficiently descriptive title. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:27, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
::DavidB4, I would appreciate it if you would move the page now. No need for a move tag (nobody's going to comment there anyway). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:29, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
:::Moved to [[Steve Borden]] with a redirect from "Sting (wrestler)" --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:09, 30 September 2018 (EDT)

== Quotes ==
Those quotes weren't my own, you should know that, they're from actual people. Also, if it's debatable, then please by all means...refute me. --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 02:48, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:I'm obviously not DavidB4, but I will still point out that a simple Google search shows it's very debatable: [https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2014/07/07/is-abstinence-unhealthy 1],[http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36084314/ns/health-sexual_health/t/no-sex-may-be-no-fun-it-unhealthy/#.XAKfVmhKhPY 2],[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/sex-celibacy-friendships-women 3],[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1077378/I-gave-sex-years-ago--best-thing-I-did.html 4] -- the info you added was undue weight, considering the overall size of the article, and it falsely implied that abstinence is a bad thing for your health. It appears that it is only when you really want to have sex and you don't. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:58, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::Yes, it was a very one-sided argument, which is factually questionable. Without getting unnecessarily descriptive, the body does have ways of dealing with some of the stated issues. Research is sketchy if even existent on several of the things you mentioned. Additionally, the first paragraph was written as your own, mot a quote, even though is was a direct copy-and-paste from another source. (That is by definition plagiarism--taking credit for someone else's work.) --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:03, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::: ''So what are the health benefits of sex, besides relieving stress and helping you fall asleep? Studies have shown that regular sex has a protective effect on the heart, lowering the risk of heart attack in men. For both men and women, “It increases blood flow to the genitals and probably helps the immune system,” Herbenick says. “All things being equal, it’s also fun when things are going well [in your relationship.]”
''So abstaining – especially long-term – can carry some physical consequences. In women, it can cause the atrophying of underused vaginal or hip muscles, Lindau says. Vaginismus is a common condition characterized by hypersensitivity of the muscles around the opening of the vagina, she adds. Those muscles – along with the pelvic floor muscles – are important for controlling penetration, and they need to be in a relaxed state during sexual intercourse. If they are hyper-contracted – not necessarily from abstinence itself, but accumulated fear or anticipation of the first sexual experience – sex can be very painful. “They say it feels like he’s hit a wall,” Lindausays, adding that vaginismus can be treated.''

I said refute me, but instead you give me extra arguments. Thank you so much. --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 14:20, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:Neither of us are arguing that sex is bad or harmful -- all of the articles I cited said that sex can be good, but abstinence can also be good. You're committing a fallacy by assuming that just because sex is good means that abstinence is bad.
:Unless you get STDs or anything like that from sex, it is just as good as abstinence. The articles made it clear that abstinence does not have harmful side-effects. You need to read the cited articles better. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:30, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::: I guess the only real way to settle this is to get actual data from the field. [[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 15:18, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::::Makuta, are you pushing sex outside of marriage between husband and wife in this website? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] ([[User talk:Karajou|talk]]) 15:37, 1 December 2018 (EST)
:::::No, I'm pushing for knowledge of the dangers of lifelong abstinence. But even if I was, then there's nothing you can do about it so why are you asking? --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 20:22, 1 December 2018 (EST)
::::::"''dangers of lifelong abstinence''" -- That's ridiculous, and choosing not to have sex (especially outside of heterosexual marriage) is normal, and sex outside of marriage can actually be dangerous (if there are STDs involved). Many people have been abstinent and turned out just fine. You're distorting the facts to make it seem like it's a necessity to have sex in order to be healthy, and if you don't there's a medical problem, when in reality neither option is inherently harmful.
::::::"''But even if I was, then there's nothing you can do about it''" If I'm understanding you correctly, as admins, we can do something about it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:44, 1 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::"''If I'm understanding you correctly, as admins, we can do something about it.''"

:::::::Haha! '''Can'''... --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 21:34, 1 December 2018 (EST)

::::::::Want me to turn it into a "'''Will'''"? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 21:54, 1 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::::Action without cause. To pardon is true power but you have nothing to pardon, I'm giving you no trouble. --[[User:Makuta Makaveli|Makuta Makaveli]] ([[User talk:Makuta Makaveli|talk]]) 22:01, 1 December 2018 (EST)

Makuta Makaveli either has an agenda, or gets his/her information from people who have an agenda to promote casual sex by making abstinence look like a "health hazard." The Atheist YouTuber "MrRepzion" also claimed that one needed to have "trial sex" to see if the two are "sexually compatible." It would help CP if the articles had information debunking these claims [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 12:08, 2 December 2018 (EST)

:Most people argue that there is "no harm" in casual sex--that has become a common claim (although some say is is risky due to STDs). Because of this, there are plentiful materials arguing that claim. However, it is much harder to find support for this claim that is is actually unhealthy to abstain by choice. I've seen a few unscientific blog posts, etc. about it, but nothing verifiable. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist (there is always someone willing to write a paper on some fringe belief which people want to hear--just look at chocolate, for example, where they like to disregard the health costs of sugar and just look at the pure chocolate, which by the way tastes pretty bad on its own) but I'm not finding proof.
:Shobson20, the "try it before you buy it" idea is certainly nothing new in personal relationships. I suspect you are correct in linking these two, as people who would like to engage in this practice would like to have something like this to point to as a defense for their actions. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:54, 3 December 2018 (EST)

== Why did I get blocked by "Minuteman?" ==

I was fixing the damage that "My password is green" was doing. I sometimes notice vandals before CP's admins do, and sometimes I try to help. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 19:23, 15 December 2018 (EST)

:I replied to your email. You did nothing wrong. Thank you for your vigilance, and I apologize for this! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:30, 15 December 2018 (EST)

::What are the qualifications for becoming a sysop on this site? I would like to be able to help by stopping the trolls and vandals who frequently attack this site. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 19:38, 15 December 2018 (EST)

:::As best I can tell, there is no official criteria. However, this page might be useful to answer some basic questions: [[Conservapedia:User_rights]]. Typically, SysOp rights are given to users who have been editing for some time, and proven themselves trustworthy. I don't think there is a specific checklist that you can do, to get these rights. However, the one responsible for promotions is [[User:Aschlafly]], so you might be able to get a better idea from him as to what he specifically looks for. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:59, 15 December 2018 (EST)

I too have just been blocked by {{user|Minuteman}}. I copied over the WP article for [[anarcho-conservatism]], which the WP zealots are about to delete. The text there is mine, though most of the article is still in quotes from references, as more text is needed (hence why I brought it here). — [[User:WisdomTooth3|WisdomTooth3]] ([[User talk:WisdomTooth3|talk]]) 00:17, 1 January 2019 (EST)

:You were blocked for one hour so we could review what you were doing, because you were importing a page from WP which looked a bit like plagiarism. Since it is your own writing, then you may recreate that page, but it could use some improvements. Namely, the quotes themselves can use work, as they do not provide context. If you intend to make further improvements to the page, then we welcome our efforts! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:29, 1 January 2019 (EST)
::Per [[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]]'s suggestion, recreated it [https://www.conservapedia.com/User:WisdomTooth3/Sandbox/Anarcho-conservatism here]. Not sure when I'll be able to improve it. Please feel free to chip in. — [[User:WisdomTooth3|WisdomTooth3]] ([[User talk:WisdomTooth3|talk]]) 03:20, 2 January 2019 (EST)

:::Thank you! I am not a subject matter expert on that topic, so I don't know how much help I can be, but I will look it over later. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:32, 2 January 2019 (EST)
::::By the way, it is probably not helpful for the article to link to itself. Unless they point to a specific part of the page, they should probably be removed. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:42, 2 January 2019 (EST)

== Merge proposal ==

What do you think about this merge request: [[Talk:Carbon cycle (astronomy)]]? I am inclined to support it, but it's probably a good idea to get more than one opinion on it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 11:32, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:I've never really studies that specific topic, but the proposal sounds fine to me. I looked up "carbon cycle" and found a great deal of information, but on the wrong topic. From my limited understanding, a merge sounds like a good idea. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:30, 29 December 2018 (EST)
== tag at bottom of pages "quotation templates" ==

Many of the content pages I create use quotes of other web content. At the bottom of the articles I created using quotes, there is a tag at the bottom of the pages indicating "quotation templates". This is a new and unwanted development.

For example, please look at the bottom of this web page: [[Atheism and mental illness]].

Can we get the "quotation templates" tag to not be there. Before they never used to be there. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 21:37, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:I made a small mistake, but cannot fix it until [[:template:cquote]] is unlocked again. I'm sorry about that--I should have noticed sooner. Someone needs to add the "noinclude" tags to the category link. If someone unlocks the page, I will fix the issue. Again, sorry about that! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:23, 29 December 2018 (EST)
::I unlocked the page.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 23:25, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:::Thanks, I believe I fixed it. You can lock it again. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:36, 29 December 2018 (EST)
::::Thanks for fixing the issue. I appreciate it.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 23:37, 29 December 2018 (EST)

:::::Any time! Thanks for pointing it out! --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:46, 29 December 2018 (EST)

== Request ==

Would you please check [[Alejandro Garcia Padilla]] for originality? It could be, but many of the refs are formatted like on Wikipedia. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:34, 30 December 2018 (EST)

:Of course! It definitely originated from WP. Slightly edited, but still copied. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_García_Padilla --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:12, 30 December 2018 (EST)

::You beat me to it. Obvious copy from WP, with slight alterations. You don't need to check reference format; just check the text. [[User:SamHB|SamHB]] ([[User talk:SamHB|talk]]) 20:19, 30 December 2018 (EST)

:::Would you please delete all the portions that are copied? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:42, 30 December 2018 (EST)

::::I'll take another look, but I think the whole thing needs to go. Also, this is not the first time. See: [[User_talk:HectorCruz66#Originality]] --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:45, 30 December 2018 (EST)
:::::Oh, and I didn't mean to ignore you, Sam. Thanks for checking also! You're right--just looking at the pages shows all you need to know. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:54, 30 December 2018 (EST)
::::::Deleting it, then, is the best option. Would you please do that? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 21:22, 30 December 2018 (EST)

:::::::Sure. I'm still looking at it, but sure, I'll delete it unless I find a reason not to. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:37, 30 December 2018 (EST)

Would you please check the page [[James Ritchey]] to see if there's anything problematic (in general, not just originality, since it's two sentences long)? If there's nothing, I guess we can keep it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:45, 17 January 2019 (EST)

:Well, he exists. It seems he's a small-time actor who has been in a few movies I've never heard of, and is barely active on YouTube. This does seem to be relatively original text...all two sentences of it.
:So on to the negative, I firstly find the wording "internet celebrity" rather questionable. I don't see anything suggesting that title. I could be missing something, but from what I'm seeing, he looks more like a wannabe celebrity. Each of his youtube videos has between 1K and 7K views. Assuming those views were not farmed, that still seems a ways away from the numbers a celebrity would have. He second most viewed video seems to be review of a water bottle....I didn't watch it to find out if it is sponsored.
:I suspect he is trying to make a name for himself, which slots this "article" into a suspicious category anyway.
:Bottom line, there is nothing blatantly wrong, but I see why you were questioning it. This smells fishy. I'd be included to nuke it for a lack of notability, but I'm okay with keeping it. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:31, 17 January 2019 (EST)

::Oh, and a couple search engines (at least Yahoo and Yandex [and therefore DuckDuckGo]) have already crawled this page, and added it to the first page of results from searching his name. I used a clean OS and browser, so no user history bias there. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:44, 17 January 2019 (EST)

:::If you think that page is an advertisement (which is very likely), then I am perfectly fine deleting it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:18, 17 January 2019 (EST)

::::Ok, I think I'll delete it then. Too many suspicious factors. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:44, 17 January 2019 (EST)

Assuming we should keep this essay (I shouldn't jump to conclusions), it should be moved so we have a colon: [[Essay History of racism and the Democrats]]. Unrelated, there's no mention of how Reconstruction Democrats passed gun control laws to prevent black people from engaging in self-defense. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:48, 18 January 2019 (EST)

:I hadn't gotten the chance to review it yet. I'm moved the page, but I think it might be helpful to keep the redirect for the moment. This seems like a reasonably good essay, so I'm find with keeping it. I will send you an email shortly. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:29, 19 January 2019 (EST)

Hello DavidB4, I am wondering if any of these images would be acceptable for me to upload (regarding licensing): [https://twitter.com/VP/status/1085692630246350848][https://twitter.com/scavino45/status/1010232867501363200][https://twitter.com/vp/status/1010293228619419648] Also, I am wondering if you know of any free images of the Trump Administration deployment of troops along the border with Mexico late last year? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:18, 20 January 2019 (EST)

:Hi, Twitter is always a little iffy, but these are probably okay. Firstly, images made by an employee of the U.S. government as a part of their duties are automatically in the Public Domain. Secondly, a number of other users here republish twitter images under "Fair use." The first one is ideal, so if this is the case as it looks, use one or more of them for this reason.
:I do not know of any images of troops at the border, and couldn't find any good ones after a quick check. I will look a little more later. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:06, 20 January 2019 (EST)
::Thanks! Would you please look over this image to make sure there aren't any problems? [[:File:Donald Trump Angel Families.jpg]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:46, 21 January 2019 (EST)

:::Any time! I do find it a little questionable that Pence took that photo. However, if it was one of his aids, it is still PD. However, if it was taken by the press, it is probably not. I don't know if there is a way to find out who actually took it, since this is a Twitter post. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:05, 21 January 2019 (EST)

::::I don't know where to find who took the picture. I'm assuming it's his office, since I don't see why his office would rely on the media for such a picture.

::::Also, I don't know where else to find a picture of this specific event. I checked the White House's Flickr page, among other pages, but couldn't find anything. If you are able to find a better image, I would appreciate it (you don't have to, though). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:11, 21 January 2019 (EST)

:::::I'm not having much luck either. Let's just go with what you have. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:50, 21 January 2019 (EST)

::::::OK. I wish it were easier to find a free picture of this event, but oh well. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:01, 21 January 2019 (EST)

:::::::Considering all of the cameras in that room, it does seem surprising. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:05, 21 January 2019 (EST)
:::::::Oh, second person to the left of Trump is Pence, so he definitely was not holding the camera :) --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:08, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Hello DavidB4, would you please check the newly-created article [[Athanasio Celia]] for originality, and to make quality improvements if you have the time? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:10, 9 February 2019 (EST)

:Hello, it looks like this is a (perhaps slightly revised) copy of an old version of the WP page on the subject. I did not dig through WP, but I'm seeing matches to here: [https://www.amazon.com/Athanasio-Celia/e/B07BG9GB3J%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share] which is an Amazon page quoting WP, and here: [https://en.everybodywiki.com/Athanasio_Celia] which is probably plagiarism as well. This was not a complete match anywhere my tools saw--more like a 30% match or so. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:40, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::Do you think it should be deleted? Either way, the page has formatting/copyedit issues. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:41, 9 February 2019 (EST)

:::It looks like WP deleted it, but "everybodywiki.com" saved a copy. It looks like we should delete it unless we can verify that the original author was the one to post it here. It is worth finding that out first, as it is not uncommon for us to get rescued paged from WP editors. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:49, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::::While we're waiting for the above page to get sorted out, would you please move the page [[Indian struggle]] to [[The Indian Struggle]]? Also, there should probably be a [[Indian Struggle]] page. This whole thing is a mess right now. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::::Also, if you would take a look at this page, I would appreciate it: [[Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)

:::::I am very busy right now, but have moved that page as requested. I will deal with the other issues soon. If I don't do so within a week, feel free to remind me. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)

::::::Oh dear....Okay, some of that page might be original, but at least some parts, including the fact list are definitely not original. That list is all over the internet. This page: [https://www.libertynation.com/ocasio-cortez-and-the-nazi-connection/] is one possible place this may have come from, but if you take a look at a web search of the any one "fact," you will see that that it is all over the place. It's going to be hard to nail down where it actually came from. In any case, we should challenge it. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:05, 12 February 2019 (EST)

== Page improvement ==

Hello DavidB4, it might be worth taking a look at and moving this article: [[Template:Examples of Liberal Bias]]

I think it should probably be moved to a mainspace article or at least have its formatting improved. For example, the template is transcluded in the [[Liberal bias]] article, and if you look at the table of contents, starting at the first "See also" section and below, the template transclusion messes things up. Of course, whether we move this article to mainspace or simply do some formatting fixes, it's going to take some work to get this done. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:44, 28 January 2019 (EST)

:I see what you mean; it is as if someone wanted this to both be a template and a standalone page. It must be one or the other. If it was unlocked, I think I could fix it to work properly as a template, but it would not be a good standalone page. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:50, 29 January 2019 (EST)
::It looks better to me. What do you think...Have I missed any issues? --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:27, 29 January 2019 (EST)
:::Looks good to me! The only issue is the double space below the template, as you can see at the [[Liberal bias]] article -- this isn't a big deal, though. It seems to me that the "See also" link on the template is kind of useless (unless someone directly accesses the template, and considering the [[Examples of Liberal Bias]] redirect, that might happen). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:56, 29 January 2019 (EST)
::::Good point, I'd missed that spacing issue, but I think I've fixed it now. That see also link is not included when the page is transcluded, but only shows on the template page itself. I figured that was a reasonable compromise. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:36, 29 January 2019 (EST)
:::::I think it is a reasonable compromise -- thanks! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:21, 29 January 2019 (EST)

== Article move request ==

It might be worth considering moving [[Jane Samantha Fae]] to [[Jane Francesca Fae alias John Ozimek]] -- that's what User:GraceDalrymple did, but how she did it was very poor, simply blanking one page and creating the other one, and she didn't make the first page a proper redirect. For the record, this page appears to be of someone born a male and who now identifies as a woman, so the current female name title may not be appropriate. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:00, 2 March 2019 (EST)
:I'm willing to make the move, but this name makes it sound like "John Ozimek" is the alias, while "Jane Francesca Fae" is the real name. Jane should be first in such a page name, though, since that's probably what someone is going to search for. If I was making the page, I would probably just call it "Jane Francesca" or else put something parenthetical afterwards, like "Jane Francesca Fae (John Ozimek)". If you think "Jane Francesca Fae alias John Ozimek" is best, though, I'll do it. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:40, 2 March 2019 (EST)
::I'm thinking it should simply be moved to his real name, John Ozimek, just like the [[Bradley Manning]] and [[Bruce Jenner]] articles were done. [[User:Northwest|Northwest]] ([[User talk:Northwest|talk]]) 23:16, 2 March 2019 (EST)
:::Tempting, as we all know that's he still is. However, his legal name is now "Jane," so I'm not sure if we should leave that out altogether. We could. --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:58, 3 March 2019 (EST)

::::How about this: [[John Ozimek (Jane Samantha Fae)]]? --[[User:DavidB4|David B]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:48, 3 March 2019 (EST)

Would you please take a look here: [[Talk:Newfoundland]]? This article might have to be moved. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 18:55, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

:Confirmed, that's the name now, so I moved it. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:13, 17 April 2019 (EDT)

== Great work! ==

Great work in adding those references to [[benefits of capitalism]]!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 13:30, 28 March 2019 (EDT)
:Thanks! It could use some more work, but it's progress. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:40, 28 March 2019 (EDT)

== [[World History Study Guide from 1648]] ==

This article contains a wrong info. "(1923) created the modern state of Turkey, with a combination of military rule and an elected Parliament; also converted the Arabic language to a modern, Latin-style alphabet". Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a Turk and he converted the Turkish language to Latin-style alphabet. Please correct it. Thank you. - [[User:Andrewlee|Andrewlee]] ([[User talk:Andrewlee|talk]]) 15:45, 10 April 2019 (EDT)

:I know very little about that page or the history it speaks of, but that page is locked from editing by anyone other than full administrators, so I cannot make this change in any case. You could try asking [[User:Aschlafly]] or [[User:Karajou]] for assistance with this. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:29, 10 April 2019 (EDT)
==Image upload requests==
I requested to upload several images for an essay I am writing and have gotten no reply. Can you please help me? --[[User:ProudGator|ProudGator]] ([[User talk:ProudGator|talk]]) 09:30, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

:Hi, I noticed your request, and I will get to it. Typically, requests are taken in the order they are received, and we have a substantial backlog of request right now. I will do these two soon, but in the future, I will take them in order to be fair to the others making upload requests. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:55, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

::I've uploaded three of them. However, the last one you requested is owned by National Geographic, which specifically states that we cannot republish their content. (See [[CP:IUR]] for more information.) --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:27, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

== Image upload ==

If yo could upload one of the images I linked to on Andrew Schlafly's talkpage that'd be great! [[User:JohnSelway|JohnSelway]] ([[User talk:JohnSelway|talk]]) 17:56, 18 April 2019 (EDT)
:Sure: [[:File:Jacinda Ardern, 2018.jpeg]]
:If you need any more done, feel free to add the request to the bottom of [[Conservapedia:Image upload requests]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:00, 18 April 2019 (EDT)

== Look at this edit ==

Please look at this edit: [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia&diff=1519161&oldid=1516763 DavidB4 and Conservapedia]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 13:39, 24 April 2019 (EDT)

:Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:37, 24 April 2019 (EDT)

==Bay of Pigs switch==
Should the page [[Bay of Pigs]] actually be [[Bay of Pigs invasion]]? One is a place, the other is a historical event. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 14:56, 5 May 2019 (EDT)

:Yes, this should be clarified--thanks for pointing it out! This is a large page with many contributors, so I've put the move template on it as a prior announcement. If no one objects or makes other suggestions, I will move it soon. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:24, 5 May 2019 (EDT)

::Sounds good to me. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:27, 5 May 2019 (EDT)

== Editing question ==

Hi DavidB4 and the others!

I just created an account a few days ago and have been doing some adding of pages and editing. Unfortunately, I think I might have gotten a little carried away and did some editing to a page that wasn't mine (Romulus Augustulus, the last Roman emperor) without taking time to check up on editing etiquette. So that I know for future reference, is it generally expected that you shouldn't do significant editing without talking to the original author first?

My apologies to the author; I hope you'll forgive it as just a case of over-enthusiasm.

-Teakin88

:Hi Teakin88, Welcome to Conservapedia! 
:I see nothing unfortunate about some initiative to improve an article--good work! If you are going to make a major point-of-view change, or do something potentially controversial, it would probably be a good idea to first ask on the respective article talk page. If no one objects, then go for it. For general, non-controversial expansions like this, there shouldn't typically be any need to ask. It should also be noted that no one really "owns" articles. There are some articles in which a single editor has made a significant investment (1990'sguy and the [[Donald Trump achievements]] articles come to mind). In those cases, would probably be the courteous thing to do to ask before removing, changing, or contradicting preexisting content. Also, if you plan to change the perspective of an article (i.e., changing the Donald Trump article to say he's a traitor, lair, and jerk) you should probably ask first. However, in most cases, you can just go ahead and make improvements where you see the need. If someone disagrees with an edit you made, they will probably revert that edit and let you know. In that case, respect the senior editor, talk to them, and come to some agreement. I hope this clarifies the matter. If in doubt, it never hurts to ask. Contrary to popular belief, it's often better to ask for permission than forgiveness. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:58, 8 May 2019 (EDT)

::One extra thing -- even for non-controversial changes, I strongly recommend always citing reliable sources. This is helpful as they increase CP's reputability, and they are helpful for readers who want to research a certain topic further in-depth. Thanks for your edits, Teakin88. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 00:17, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

:::A very good point--yes, please include references. If you used any sources, even just for a basic understanding of the subject, they should always be cited. If you do not have any, I still suggest you do a little research, and find a good source which supports what you are writing. Common knowledge does not need to be cited (i.e. "red is a color") but when you are making an assertion which some reads may not have already known, try to cite it. It shouldn't be particularly difficult, just list the source, such as a URL, and perhaps the date you retrieved it. You are welcome to use any formal citation style, but you are not required or expected to do so. Most editors just paste the link inside of <code><nowiki><ref> </ref></nowiki></code> tags after the statement being referenced. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:10, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

==Historical revisionism and revisionism==
These two pages [[Revisionism]] and [[Historical revisionism]] are basically the same topic and ought to be merged under the banner of the second. I'll start expanding the revisionism page into general themes afterward. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:32, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

:That sounds good to me. I'll be a bit busy for the next 4-5 days, but I will merge these when I get the chance. If you want, feel free to move over the valuable content from [[Revisionism]] yourself, and make is page a redirect. Otherwise, I'll do it when I can. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:16, 9 May 2019 (EDT)

::Done: [[Historical revisionism]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:33, 14 May 2019 (EDT)

== Email is bouncing ==

I sent a message to your email, and it bounced. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 12:41, 14 May 2019 (EDT)

:That's odd! I checked over things on my end, and everything seems to look right. Are you attempting the address listed on my user page? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:51, 14 May 2019 (EDT)
:I was able to send a test message there successfully. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:38, 14 May 2019 (EDT)
::I used the address on your user page, and I get a message from "Mail Delivery Subsystem <mailer-daemon@googlemail.com>" that says "Message not delivered
There was a problem delivering your message to davidb4-cp@archnet.us. See the technical details below, or try resending in a few minutes.

The response from the remote server was:
550 Mail to davidb4-cp@archnet.us has been suspended" [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 16:58, 16 May 2019 (EDT)

:::Oh, that's my old address. It now bounces emails due to spam. Sorry for the trouble! I changed that public address last December. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:07, 16 May 2019 (EDT)

== Thank you! ==

Thank you for recreating [[User:Ahmed Samoa|my user page]]! [[User:Ahmed Samoa|Ahmed Samoa]] ([[User talk:Ahmed Samoa|talk]])

== A communist troll ==

A Communist troll who first used the Username "MarxistLeninist" is repeatedly making sock accounts and just won't get the message and go away. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 22:54, 14 July 2019 (EDT)

:Thanks for the tip. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:37, 15 July 2019 (EDT)

== Mormons are Christian. ==

Hi, I was reading the page about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I am LDS (Mormon) and this article contains false things about the Church. It quotes Dr. James White, a Christian pastor, who is NOT MORMON and has written many anti-Mormon articles. White does not understand what the Church is about and he claims Mormons are not Christian. We are Christian! People like White and others from mainstream Christian churches misunderstand the doctrines of the LDS Church! I am a convert to the LDS church and there are SO many misconceptions about the Church, things taken out of context and distorted. It's disappointing that a site like this would perpetuate these false accusations. I would like to be able to edit the article if I could, since I am an actual Mormon. I don't know how to go about doing that.

Thank you,

Cindy

:It's understandable that you want to support your church, but why are you trying to isolate Dr. White? You've reduced his contributions to virtually nothing. [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Monday, 13:04, 22 July 2019 (EDT)

::Thanks for reaching out! I am not personally an expert on Mormonism, so I might not be the right person to ask. However, I will be blunt with you: it seems that Mormonism is classified by many as cult for good reason. For example:
::*The Bible says that there is only one God (for example, see: Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 45:5). Mormonism, however, says that:
::**there are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163)
::**There is a mother goddess (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443)
::*The Bible teaches that God is an eternal, infinite being, who created man in His (spiritual) image, but was never himself a man. Mormonism teaches that:
::**God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
::**"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22)
::**God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
::**"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
::Furthermore, it teaches that after you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354), which is outright blasphemy. This sounds like what is written in Genesis 3:5: "For God knows that when you eat from [the tree] your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil," which was spoken by Satan.

::Mormonism is based on Christianity, but so is Islam. Adding new things to Christianity and abrogate parts of scripture is pretty much what cults specialize in. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:17, 22 July 2019 (EDT)

== Article move requests ==

Should the article [[The mossadil]] be kept? If so, please move it to [[The MossadIL]]. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 10:49, 7 August 2019 (EDT)
:Initially, this sounded rather like something not notable enough to have an article. However, the account has over 115,000 followers at present. That sounds like a high number, although of course followers can be farmed. Honestly, I pay very little attention to Twitter...do you think that compared to the rest of Twitter, this is notable enough to keep? I find it a little odd having a page about a twitter account, but I'm okay with keeping it. If we do, though, I wonder if a more descriptive name might be better. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:21, 8 August 2019 (EDT)
::115,000 followers doesn't seem that high to me. Trump has over 62 million followers, John Bolton is nearing 700,000, and Matteo Salvini and Nigel Farage of Europe both have over 1 million (see [[Essay:Top conservatives on Twitter]]). If the article is notable otherwise, that's fine, but I don't think the number of followers makes it notable. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 05:41, 9 August 2019 (EDT)

:::Ok, then I say delete it. It might be a good twitter account, but I don't see anything else that makes it notable. There is also a web store behind this account, so there is some monetary motivation for promotion. The account that wrote this CP article is probably not a single-use promo account, but rather probably a good-faith editor. However, I don't think this qualifies as something worth publishing a page about. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:38, 9 August 2019 (EDT)

::::Thanks for deleting.

::::Also, would you please move the newly-created [[Emu war]] article (created, I think, by the same user) to capitalize the "w"? Also, this article needs a massive amount of improvement, and I don't have time at the moment to do so. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:56, 9 August 2019 (EDT)

:::::Good suggestion. As I guess you already noticed, I expanded it somewhat and moved it per your request. There is a great deal more which could be written about this topic, but at least the basics are there for now. Also, I think I will go ahead and make the History category you tried to use. That seems like one which could be useful. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:43, 12 August 2019 (EDT)

== Help:I've been blocked by Minuteman for creating Fredogate page ==
Can someone please help so I can improve the page I started? I've been blocked by Minuteman for creating Fredogate page. No explanation was given and I find his censoring very frustrating since this incident some media personalities call Fredogate, is widely covered in youtube.--[[User:Bearbrau|Bearbrau]] ([[User talk:Bearbrau|talk]]) 19:15, 14 August 2019 (EDT)
:My apologies for that--you did nothing wrong. You were automatically blocked for a 2-hour duration so that we could review your activity—it was nothing personal. Conservapedia gets its fair share of vandalism and internet trolls, so we need to be careful. I noticed this issues and unblocked you seven minutes later, but not before it was an inconvenience. (You were only able to post on our talk pages because you were unblocked.) You may continue where you left off, and should have no further trouble of this sort. If you have any specific questions or concerns, fell free to contact me by email. However, you should be all set to proceed, and this will not be counted against you. Again, Sorry about that! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:26, 14 August 2019 (EDT)

== Two questions/requests ==

Hello DavidB4, would you please take a look at the article [[Mainstream conservative]]? I don't know if this page is to be kept, but it would need significant reworking as it seems rather opinionated. Maybe it should be moved to the "essay" namespace?

Also, would you please keep an eye on the draft [[User:RobSteff/Slovakia]]? It seems like the editor wants to redo CP's [[Slovakia]] page, but some of the intro wording [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Slovakia&oldid=910323397 mirrors the WP article] way too closely. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:20, 18 August 2019 (EDT)

:Hi 1990'sguy!
:I rarely see [[Mainstream conservative]], [[movement conservative]], populist conservatives, etc. well defined in comparison to other types of conservatives. If the content here is accurate (I have not verified it, but have no specific reason to doubt it), I think there could be some value in keeping this. As you say, though it will of course need at the very least to be wikified, and should really have some references. It could be considered a subjective explanation and thus an essay, but I think this could be done as a standard article. We do also have an article for [[Movement conservative]]s already, so this might fit in where it is, given a little more work. Do you disagree, though?

:I will also try to keep an eye on the Slovakia article...good idea. It seems promising that this users replied to your comment about copyright/copy-and-paste. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:38, 18 August 2019 (EDT)

::Also, I will note that I'm not sure if Mainstream conservative should focus quite so much on Trump support/opposition. Trump certainly is getting people to show their true colors, but this seems better suited as a separate example, rather than the main point of discussion. Trump will, either in 2020 or 2024, leave office, but chances are, the concept of mainstream conservatives will continue, so I would prefer to see our article on this being more about principles than support/opposition of one person in 2016-2020. I'll post this on that article's talk page as well. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:53, 18 August 2019 (EDT)

==Move request==
Can we move this [[Essay:Rich Man and Parable of Talents]] to [[Parable of the Talents]]? For the most part (with some minor editing) this could be an actual useful article instead of yet another editorial. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:45, 19 August 2019 (EDT)
:I'm generally happy to help move things, but as this is Andy's Essay, I wonder if perhaps he should be asked first. Generally, essay space offers special allowances and exceptions which mainspace does not. At present, this piece reads more like an essay than an encyclopedia article, so it would need a little editing if it was moved. If he is fine with this, then sure...I would be happy to move it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:48, 19 August 2019 (EDT)

In the meantime (and not to distract from the above), would you please move [[:Category:British royal family]] to capitalize the last two words? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:01, 19 August 2019 (EDT)
:1990'sguy: Good suggestion--I've moved it as you asked. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:38, 19 August 2019 (EDT)
::Thanks! Would you please also look at the move request at [[Talk:Kosice]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 11:22, 24 August 2019 (EDT)

:::Thanks for pointing that out! I used to be able to monitor all activity on CP, but my availability has decreased such that I can only check retroactively for highlights now. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:14, 24 August 2019 (EDT)

== Article assessment ==

Hello DavidB4, would you please take a look at the newly-created article [[Cruz Derangement Syndrome]]? Is it notable enough to keep, and if so, would it need any other improvements? Also, while I generally like Cruz (with certain exceptions such as trade and his support for a liberal appellate judge in 2014), I know that CP "officially" takes a more critical stance toward him. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:20, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

:Hi 1990'sguy, ''I might step on some toes with this reply, but here goes--don't take this the wrong way.'' I was looking at that earlier, and have been thinking about it. Of course, it needs some style fixes, and some categories. As for the content, this seems more like a joking or borderline humor article/essay, rather than an encyclopedia article, but then again, [[Trump Derangement Syndrome]] does to some extent as well, but we still have that. Some people do have a very strong reflexive response to Cruz which does in many cases seem somewhat unjustified, so I think this may be valid thing to write about in some form.
:The fact of the matter is that neither of these "syndromes" are actual medical conditions or syndromes--this is hyperbole. I question whether that belongs in an encyclopedia, and particularly, the title of an article. Then again, we also use a similar tactic sometimes in reference to scandals (or should-be scandals) by throwing "gate" on the end of it (i.e. [[Obamagate]], [[Muellergate]], [[Climategate]], etc.) which can itself seem rather unprofessional. Basically, I don't like the hyperbole/clickbait title--it seems gimmicky. However, there is something here to be written about, and this will probably fit right in among the others I mentioned (and many more I didn't) --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:44, 5 September 2019 (EDT)

::At least in the case of TDS, that's a term that is now common among conservatives, so it's not like CP made up the term when creating the article. I'm not sure about the other articles you mentioned, but I never heard of the term "Cruz Derangement Syndrome" before seeing this article. However, I won't delete the article and will improve it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:00, 6 September 2019 (EDT)

:::Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention, then...I've never heard the TDS term anywhere other that CP. I guess I can go either way on CDS. I don't like the terminology, and I generally don't like inventing terms. However, I have no problem with writing about this opposition to Cruz, in some way. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 10:42, 6 September 2019 (EDT)
::::Actually, it looks like CDS isn't quite a new term either: [https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Cruz+Derangement+Syndrome] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 10:48, 6 September 2019 (EDT)

What do you think about this article: [[Team plasma]]? It doesn't seem notable to me, but maybe it can be kept? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:35, 8 September 2019 (EDT)

:I agree, it doesn't seem particularly notable. If we keep it, it should be renamed, but I'm not really convinced it is worth having around. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:25, 8 September 2019 (EDT)

::I just deleted it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 07:49, 9 September 2019 (EDT)

:::Also, I don't know how much you know about this technology company, but do you think the recent edits on this article are positive (I think they probably are, but I want to make sure): [[AMD]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 13:41, 9 September 2019 (EDT)

::::Thanks. I think those edits were well-intentioned. There was a little bit of an oversight there (the posted market share only included one of two types of product), but I corrected it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:07, 9 September 2019 (EDT)

How should we deal with this article: [[Joel gilbert]]? It's [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&oldid=914351777 a copy of a particular version of the Wikipedia article] (compare with even earlier diffs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&oldid=747121431][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&oldid=912556288]) -- an editor tried to change (or revert?) the article to his liking, was reverted, and brought his version here. Besides the capitalization error ("gilbert"), is the article appropriate to keep here? I'm leaning delete, but I'm not sure since it isn't the current or accepted Wikipedia version. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:32, 10 September 2019 (EDT)

:If it was all original content, I would seriously consider keeping it. However, certain parts were not written by this individual. If we chop out the plagiarized parts (everything not added in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Gilbert&type=revision&diff=914351777&oldid=914306698 this edit]), this isn't going to be a very good article, since the intro paragraph is the first to go. Either a rewite of these portions is needed, or unfortunately, the whole thing needs to go.
:There are also a few typographical errors (such as the title you pointed out, "'''eared'''" rather than earned, etc.) and a few other improvements which could be made. However, these are not worth making unless the plagiarized material is removed. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 19:19, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
::Would you please make those changes (assuming you have the time and will to do so--if you don't, that's OK)? I'm devoting my CP time right now to work on my Donald Trump achievements project and would rather not spend much time on maintenance work. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:54, 11 September 2019 (EDT)
:::Are the editor's changes sufficient? Upon his request, I deleted the old article title, so please see [[Joel Gilbert]]. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 13:22, 23 September 2019 (EDT)
::::Also, in addition to my comment above, I am wondering (assuming you have the time to do so) if you can find any other free images of Trump's meeting with Hungary's prime minister [[Viktor Orban]] this May,[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trump_amerikai_eln%C3%B6k_%C3%A9s_Orban_Viktor_magyar_minisztereln%C3%B6k.jpg] including on Twitter, Facebook, or wherever. I could only find this image, and I'm not sure even about that because it was uploaded only a few days ago by an apparently new editor and doesn't show licensing information. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:15, 23 September 2019 (EDT)
:::::Apologies, I've been quite busy lately. Most of Joel Gilbert looks pretty good now, but the first paragraph is heavily plagiarized. IF that gets re-written, then we should be all set. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:21, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

:::::As far as photos go, it looks like most news outlets are using Getty Images. They buy a copy of the photo, then own it royalty-free. That means that if we could find a new outlet with a loose copyright policy, we could use it. Unfortunately, most of them have a TOS document a mile long adding prohibitions on top of U.S. copyright law. The only thing I found was [https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/05/13/president-trump-welcomes-prime-minister-of-hungary-viktor-orban-to-white-house-video-and-transcript/ this], which does not seem to have a set of TOS. This means that only copyright law applies, and theoretically, we could use it under the Fair Use clause. Do you agree? Does that look and sound good enough? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:33, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
::::::I don't know much about copyright law, so I will trust your and Andy's judgments on this. If there aren't any better images, that one is what I will upload. Thanks for checking! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:36, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

:::::::Well, I'm no expert on copyright law either...I'm learning as I go. Actually though, here is one which would be legally safer to use, and doesn't have mics in the frame: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trump_amerikai_eln%C3%B6k_%C3%A9s_Orban_Viktor_magyar_minisztereln%C3%B6k.jpg] Maybe you were looking for something other than what WP/MW have though. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:41, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
::::::::That is the same image that I linked above -- I found it before messaging you, and I asked you if you were able to find other images because this one was uploaded only a few days ago by a new user and doesn't include licensing information. Because of that, I don't want to upload the image, at least until I'm confident it's OK to load. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:48, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

:::::::::Opps, so you did. I looked at it briefly, then went on the hunt. I forgot to check back to make sure that what I found was different. They claim it is under CC, so if you take that at face value, great. However, that's a good point that it may or may not be true. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:56, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

::::::::::If it's uploaded by an experienced editor with believable documentation, I trust it, but if it's a brand new user with poor evidence of proper licensing, I don't trust it. The user linked to some Hungarian website to show where he found the source (the link is a dead link) and claims it's from the website. It could be true, though I can't find any corresponding U.S. government photo. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:19, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

Good point. It looks like the [https://web.archive.org/web/20190514152046/https://www.hirado.hu/kulfold/kulpolitika/cikk/2019/05/14/hasonlo-vilagnezetet-kepvisel-donald-trump-es-orban-viktor file did exist there], but I can't tell anything about licensing, since I don't speak Hungarian. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:28, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
:Google Translate or something could help, and I'll try to do it later when I get the time. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:57, 25 September 2019 (EDT)
::Under the photo, it says this: "Viktor Orban and Donald Trump (Photo: MTI / EPA / Solid Costumes)" -- does this mean anything of note? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:06, 20 October 2019 (EDT)

:::I figured it was something like that. It doesn't really mean a whole lot to me, but maybe a little. They are crediting the photo to "MTI / EPA / Solid Costumes" which means that it is probably not in the Public Domain. Often, they will use copyrighted photos by permission or contract, so that is probably what is happening in this case. However, I don't know who "MTI / EPA / Solid Costumes" is, so I can't very well track it down. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:37, 20 October 2019 (EDT)

::::OK, thanks. I probably won't upload this image, partially because of the uncertainty over copyright. In addition to this, is this article appropriate to keep: [[Henry ward]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:07, 21 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Never, mind -- that "Henry ward" article is apparently a fake/parody article. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:59, 21 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::Okay. "No" is generally the safe option, so if in doubt, it's a good default answer. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:25, 21 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::Is this article appropriate to keep, or should it be deleted: [[Polarity technologies ltd]]? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:02, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::::Nope. I deleted it. The language made it clear that this was an advertising attempt. If they want to make a more fair, unbiased attempt I'll consider it. That, however, was just an ad in the form of a wiki page. I do like that they used a few third party sources, but it still was too one-sided and promotional. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 17:02, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::::Do you think this article should be deleted, or not? [[Black pigeon speaks]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 12:48, 8 November 2019 (EST)

It looks a bit like a content dump, and was clearly written by someone not familiar with wiki markup language. This makes it seem more like a ad attempt. However, "Black pigeon speaks" seems to be a legitimate entity online who may be somewhat notable. He has 500k Youtube followers, and 63.6K BitChute followers (both platforms seem to offer the same content). Of course, such numbers can be farmed to some extent. However, he does seem to be at least somewhat conservative based on my very brief research. I could go either way on this article. If we keep it, if obviously needs some clean-up. What do you think? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:46, 9 November 2019 (EST)
:It definitely needs cleanup. I'm still not convinced it's notable to keep since some YouTube personalities have several million followers. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 16:23, 10 November 2019 (EST)

::Yeah, he doesn't seem like anyone particularly notable and differentiating. He might be doing good stuff, but I don't know if that really warrants a CP article about him. This probably stands to benefit him more that our readers. I think I'm leaning towards deletion, but I'd be okay with keeping it if others here see value in it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:51, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:::I recommend deleting it. At the very least, maybe we should let Andy decide? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:49, 10 November 2019 (EST)
::::Alright, sure let's delete it. We could ask Andy just to make sure, but it's probably okay to just do it. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 11:58, 11 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Without getting distracted from the above article, can you tell whether this article is original or plagiarized? [[The Genesis observer theory]] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:23, 12 November 2019 (EST)

It was copied from CreationWiki [http://www.creationwiki.org/Genesis_observer_theory]. That page was mostly written by one author, but some adjustments were made by two others. Plagiarism seems likely, but I will contact the user on this end. I applied for a CreationWiki account awhile back, but it seems my application was rejected or ignored, so I can't ask over there. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:31, 12 November 2019 (EST)
:Note: It was mostly written over there by user "PabloCa2007." The user posting it here is "Pablocastro" --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:33, 12 November 2019 (EST)
::Just based on that, it looks like the page is mostly original, but we'll still need to reach an understanding with the creator (and I saw you already reached out to him). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 17:37, 12 November 2019 (EST)

== Thank you! ==

Hey David, just wanted to say thanks for the welcome and the advice on the joel gilbert article. Definitely don't wanna mess up anything so I'll go back and fix it! :) I might need a bit of help with the infobox if you wouldn't mind but I might be able to figure it out. Anyhow thank you so much! Feel absolutely free to let me know if anything needs adjustment
[[User:Manny P90|Manny P90]] ([[User talk:Manny P90|talk]]) 14:57, 13 September 2019 (EDT)Manny

:You're welcome, and thank you for your interest in improving it! One thing still concerns me..the first paragraph doesn't seem to be original. Could you perhaps re-write that intro? As for the template, I'd be happy to try to help you, but our inforbox template is significantly different that Wikipedia's, so you can't do a a simple copy-and-paste of that. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:38, 25 September 2019 (EDT)

== New WP articles ==

Hello DavidB4, when you get the chance, please take a look at these two articles: [[Malik Obama]] and [[Dreams from My Real Father]]. The editor who created them stated that they were copied from Wikipedia articles that have been deleted (thus, they may not be original). I already wrote a very short message to the user. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:10, 3 October 2019 (EDT)

:Hi 1990'sguy, I noticed those come in, but didn't have the time to investigate then. At the very least, they need cleanup, but I also am suspicious of their originality. There are similarities between [[Malik Obama]] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Barack_Obama#Malik_Obama this], and [[Dreams from My Real Father]] looks like a slight rewrite of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams_from_My_Real_Father this], although it could be the other way around. They at least need some cleanup; I'm leaning towards deletion, but this user has responded in the past, so it could be this is slightly more than just a dump and run maneuver. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:11, 4 October 2019 (EDT)
::Would you please also take a look at this article: [[Nicholas J Fuentes]]? It might not be appropriate to keep on CP. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 10:53, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

:::I don't see any evidence of plagiarism, and it isn't a wreck like some text dumps, so that's a good start. My main concern is with the matter of notability. It seems that he is somewhat publicly recognized, although he doesn't seem to have a great deal of publicity. He also seems to be in this to make a profit--that's not inherently bad (many talk shows and publications are for-profit endeavors, which I don't mind), but it is worth noting that by giving him some much-needed publicity, we may be helping out his profit margin. Based on these factors, I might lean towards deletion. However, while I don't want RW to decide what we do and do not have, I noticed that they do have an article about this guy (although I didn't bother to read their pig slop). What do you think? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:01, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

::::I made some copyedits, though the title might need to be moved. We could keep it, though the wording might need to be changed to make it sound less promotional. Also, I'm having trouble determining whether he's a consistent conservative or an "alt-right" person, though it looks like the former is more accurate. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:58, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::I don't know much about him, and all I can find seems to be name-calling, ad hominem attacks, etc. which are loaded with bias. I will somewhat take back what I said about not much publicity...after digging a bit more, I have found a quantity of the standard liberal attack pieces against him, saying things like "Well, he said on Thursday that he is not a white supremacist and opposes violence, but actually the opposite is true, and random democrat xyz says that he is trying to play the victim here, and not simply being attacked for his views."
:::::It seems he had to leave his college because of these attacks, death threats, etc. after making his political views known. 'm starting to think maybe we should keep an article about him. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:41, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::That sounds good to me, so I'll accept keeping the article, though it may need further improvements. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 08:11, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

The [[Malik Obama]] and [[Dreams from My Real Father]] still haven't been edited by the article creator. What should we do with them? --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 23:15, 15 October 2019 (EDT)

:I've deleted them. If the author disagrees, they can be restored by an admin. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:18, 17 October 2019 (EDT)

== Cult leader Adnan Oktar ==

Hi. Could you please upload a picture of [[Harun Yahya|Adnan Oktar]]'s old and new look? I found this picture: [http://www.mavikocaeli.com.tr/resimler/iste-adnan-oktar-in-karanlik-gecmisi-unlu_11038318_39_fe5ee97f1d33bbc62e23.jpg]. Search results: [https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNSvWCIzFVBVujBE79-3Cfj1nZt-hA%3A1570459097293&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=625&ei=2U2bXcWiD6SorgS-uanwDQ&q=Adnan+Oktar+eski&oq=Adnan+Oktar+eski&gs_l=img.3..35i39l2j0i30l3j0i8i30.1823.15117..15325...1.0..0.173.2613.0j17......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0.AJMOrW1Xhl8&ved=0ahUKEwiF84CFsIrlAhUklIsKHb5cCt4Q4dUDCAY&uact=5]. If you want, you can upload an old and a new photo of him side by side. Thanks. - [[User:Andrewlee|Andrewlee]] ([[User talk:Andrewlee|talk]]) 10:42, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
:Conservapedia needs to follow copyright laws. Please upload this picture: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adnan_oktar_01.jpg

:I would do it myself, but I have a very full schedule today.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:58, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

::I'll certainly upload this one, Wikignome72. See: [[:File:Adnan oktar 01.jpg]].
::Andrewlee, If we can find a copy of the other which is under a [[Creative Commons]] license, or is in the [[public domain]], that would be good. We might be able to use a copyrighted one under the [[Fair use]] clause, but that is more difficult.
::My favorite places to search for images with relaxed licensing are:
*[https://commons.wikimedia.org Wikimedia commons]
*[https://www.flickr.com/search/?license=2%2C3%2C4%2C5%2C6%2C9 Flickr.com]
but there any many others also, such as these:
*[https://pixabay.com PixaBay]
*[https://morguefile.com Morguefile.com]
*[http://www.publicdomainpictures.net PublicDomainPictures.net]

::Let me know if you have any luck. Thanks!

== Requesting help with article about our ministry. ==

David, can you help me? I'm trying to edit a page on my organization, Global Media Outreach, which seems to be frequently vandalized. We didn't even add the page on us; just came across it while researching something. When I first found it it was completely negative. Some organization called Billion Bibles seems to have a criticism with us, so I edited our page and just put forth the gospel as we share it on the page so that people can make their own judgment about whether or not we have some kind of deficient version of it (we don't). Last month, the criticism reappeared as a link to the BillionBIbles organization again. They seem desperate to both link to themselves from anyone searching Conservapedia for info about us and to smear us. I don't want to publicly criticize them, just to remove their unjustified criticism of us. Thanks for any help or advice you can provide! [[User:Abranch|Abranch]] ([[User talk:Abranch|talk]]) 13:55, 16 October 2019 (EDT)abranch

:I've heard of BillionBibles before, but know almost nothing about them. However, the article on Global Media Outreach seems to only briefly mention some opposition. The linked BillionBibles page criticizes Global Media Outreach for teaching the "four spiritual laws" which they believe tends towards the "Health, Wealth, and Prosperity Gospel" and leaves out any mention of God's call (and [[predestination]], as some believe) as well as a couple other points. [https://www.billionbibles.com/four-spiritual-laws.html]. These seem like they might be valid criticisms to at least note. Our article as it was simply stated that there was some opposition to Global Media Outreach, without subjectively declaring it to be wrong, so it seems that we were already leaving it up to the reader to decide what to think. I'm also somewhat confused as to why you removed the word "some," making the page basically say that all Christians say that your organization is wrong. I've fine with some rewording or explanation, but I think it is worth keeping some mention of doctrinal disagreements. Conservapedia is read and edited by people of many different beliefs, so we generally try to present both view points and let the reader decide. It sounds like this is what you wanted, and it seems to me, that is what we are doing. Furthermore, the [[Internet_evangelism#Global_Media_Outreach|Internet_evangelism]] page (to which you deleted the link) speaks favorably of Global Media Outreach. I have reverted both of these changes, since they seem to make the problem you are speaking about worse.
:Is there something I'm missing here? If the article is being unfair to Global Media Outreach, then I would be fine with trying to balance it out--I just don't see any specific glaring issues. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:04, 17 October 2019 (EDT)

David, regarding your note on the 16th—you were right. There were edits on the article mentioning us that were telescoping somehow and when I tried to edit one it wouldn't let me because it affected another. I didn't understand and was out of time. So—user error; I'm afraid I'm not a regular contributor, I just try to watch out for slander on us, and this site is about the only example of it I have found on the web. Sometimes slander shows up in overt ways, sometimes subtle. Just look at Wikipedia's article on the Apostle Paul, which includes "Among the critics of Paul the Apostle was Thomas Jefferson, a Deist, who wrote that Paul was the 'first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.' Christian anarchists Leo Tolstoy and Ammon Hennacy take a similar view." That's bad enough, because it makes the reader feel as if the page ahs an agenda; but imagine if it were the first point in the entry, as "Criticism of Global Media Outreach" is for us.

:Okay, some little mix-ups are fine. However, I'm not quite sure what you are looking to have changed. I have slightly reworded and expanded the "[[Global_Media_Outreach#Criticism_of_Global_Media_Outreach|criticisms]]" section..what do you think? I don't think we should remove this section altogether, but some changes can be made. In any case, it doesn't really sound like slander to me, as it currently stands. There are many different denominations and doctrines within the christian faith, so it is pretty normal for some to criticize others on certain controversial issues. Thanks for your input! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 01:21, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Why was my edit reverted? I know I messed up the citation link thing but I'm new to this. I just think harm reduction is very important. If, for some reason, someone comes here for info on LSD they should know about something that is pretty common and could ruin their experience.
[[User:Yaoi|Yaoi]] ([[User talk:Yaoi|talk]]) 08:52, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

:You deleted a significant amount of content (over 2KB) with that edit. See: https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=LSD&diff=prev&oldid=1589093
:Your addition was probably fine, but make sure not to remove everything else. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:01, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

==Thomas Heyward==
These should probably be merged. [[Thomas Heyward Jr.]] [[Thomas Heyward]]. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 21:53, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:Yeah, it should be. Good catch. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:16, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::I've merged them. The result is here: [[Thomas Heyward Jr.]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:26, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

==Delete and move==
Could you delete [[Georges Sorel]], and move [[George Sorel]] in its place? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 10:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:I did it. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 11:08, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::You're welcome! Just a note, you will have to do Teakin88's [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Community_Portal&diff=1590504&oldid=1561721 requests] at [[Conservapedia:Image upload requests]], since they are not WP Commons images. Otherwise, I would have tried to upload them if I get time (which I don't have a lot of, like you I presume). --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:18, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::Thanks, yes [[CP:IUR]] is a disaster right now. I may never catch up. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:21, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::If I get some extra time, I will upload some of the easier requests. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:24, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::Thanks! I wouldn't mind, but those are not the big problem, so you don't need to. It's nice when we get some that are PD/CC so I can just breeze through them! It's the copyrighted ones that are a problem. I do my best, but it takes a lot of time and I really am not professionally qualified to make this kind of determination. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:36, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I'm considering giving PD/CC requests priority over copyrighted images. People are submitting requests for images that are obviously okay to use, but then waiting months to get them uploaded. It's not really fair to them. I might abandon the first-come, first-served system. I don't know if this would be fair either, though. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:39, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::::It seems like a good idea to me. How many users are requesting PD/CC images versus more complicated requests? If more are requesting the former, but IUR is being backlogged by one or two other editors, prioritizing seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 14:54, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::::Also, it might be a good idea to archive the completed request sections on IUR. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 15:02, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
At present, we have 1 person regularly asking for PD/CC and two people asking for copyrighted ones. That means this change would mostly benefite that one person. However, in the past (and once in a while) we've have a number of other users (maybe about 4) asking for PD/CC images as well. Not recently, though. Besides, though who make good requests tend to get upload rights of their own. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 15:45, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

==Disambiguation==
Could you make [[Samuel Huntington]] into a disambiguation page for [[Samuel P. Huntington]] and [[Samuel Huntington (signer)]]? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 12:51, 24 November 2019 (EST)
:Good idea--thanks for pointing that out! Done as requested. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 13:21, 24 November 2019 (EST)
::Thank you for doing these BTW. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 20:41, 3 December 2019 (EST)

==Merge request==
[[Cato's Letters]] and [[Cato Letters]]. The correct term/name is '''"Cato's Letters"''',(And [[Cato's Letters]] appears to me to be the better written) but there is some issue with the page views and history/revisions of the two articles that needs consideration. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 22:45, 2 December 2019 (EST)
:Also, could you switch these? The 'The' is a part of the actual title. [[American Crisis]], [[The American Crisis]] [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 22:49, 2 December 2019 (EST)
:Of course! Done as requested: [[The American Crisis]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:04, 3 December 2019 (EST)
::Cato's Letters? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 20:41, 3 December 2019 (EST)
:::Sorry, now I'm doing it. I guess I just read the last post, and assumed the rest was prior conversation. It wouldn't have been that hard to read it...
:::Anyway, I've merged the two to [[Cato's Letters]] --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:09, 4 December 2019 (EST)
::::Thanks! [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 17:49, 12 December 2019 (EST)

== Permission to use images for conservapedia via e-mail permission from image owner ==
Hi DavidB4, I've worked to create an eighth page here on conservapedia. On my eighth page there are 4-5 sections that need the emphasis of photo info-boxes to elaborate visually to the article from a scientific and creative stance. Images have been granted permission to me for use on conservapedia with no inhibited copyright laws per the image creators via e-mail. These e-mails were the only convenient way to gain permission because of the image owners location and time zone in Finland and in Europe with myself being in North America Pacific time. [[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] suggested for me to contact you here about you being an editor who can upload with these e-mail permissions or if I can forward permissions to you, and that you might be willing to have to contact via email with me on this page request for these uploads? Thank you. ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 23:16, 10 December 2019 (EST)

:Hi Technotronical! Sure, I can help you with that. That's great that you already got permission! Would you please forward the email chain where they gave permission to me (davidb4-public@archnet.us)? Then, I'll just need to know exactly which images it is you want uploaded (if you have the URLs to these images, that would be best), and I should be able to upload them for you. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 12:27, 11 December 2019 (EST)

:Hi DavidB4, Thank you very much for your help with these. I've sent you the 2 e-mails to (davidb4-public@archnet.us) Please let me know if you need anything else or what I can do to help. Here's the page https://www.conservapedia.com/Red_Hair --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 20:51, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::Hi Technotronical, I sent you a couple emails in reply on December 12. Did you get those? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:07, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::: Hi DavidB4, I just searched through my e-mail under the address and for that date 12/12... and do not see anything for an e-mail response. Could you please re-send or respond here? --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 21:25, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::::Odd. I just resent them. You should have received a total of 3 messages from me today. Maybe they are getting caught in your spam trap? --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 23:12, 19 December 2019 (EST)

:::::Yes, very unusual. Thanks for re-sending. I still don't have them and looked in the SPAM quarantine folder. Building the anticipation. Can you please resend to another e-mail address? (mom2lexie_bing_maddie@yahoo.com) --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 23:44, 19 December 2019 (EST)

::::::Done. If that doesn't work, I'll just post an abbreviated version here. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 22:28, 21 December 2019 (EST)

::::::: Thank you so much for hanging in here with me. I did get the e-mail at my yahoo inbox. I just replied back. Merry Christmas!!! --[[User_talk:Technotronical|Technotronical]] ([[User talk:Technotronical|talk]]) 23:32, 24 December 2019 (EST)

:Slightly off topic, What was the reason that Minuteman blocked Technotronical? I honestly don't know if there's a back story. Just asking. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:16, 27 December 2019 (EST)
::I'm obviously not DavidB4, but I'm pretty sure the block has nothing to do with Technotronical or his edits -- the bot blocks users based on whatever criteria is programmed into it, and that means that sometimes, innocent editors are blocked. It's happened before. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:07, 27 December 2019 (EST)

'''Technotronical:''' I got your email and will reply soon. I have been very busy lately. Also, sorry about Minuteman blocking you without a good explanation. 
'''Progressingamerica/Technotronical:''' Minuteman blocked Technotronical because it detected numerous questionable words and phrases being posted on [[Red Hair]], [[Blockbuster Video]], and [[Let's Make a Deal]]. These were mostly sexual in nature. I am willing to provide details which are not appropriate for polite company, but not on an open talk page. There were also evidences of possible plagiarism going on with [[Red Hair]], so Minuteman didn't like that either. I have set Minuteman to "Trust" Technotronical, so it will be much less likely to issue blocks against this user in the future. 
'''Technotronical:''' I am seeing some material in [[Red Hair]] which seems to have been copied in. I see duplicate content on pages like:
*https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/melanocortin-1-receptor
*The book "Advances in Cancer Research" by Paul B. Fisher and Kenneth D. Tew
*https://www.definitions.net/definition/red+hair
*and of course, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair
Except for short, clearly labeled quotes, you should never use the exact words of other people. Additionally, you should always cite your sources, for any facts or ideas retrieved from other places. 
'''1990'sguy:''' Thanks for the quick response! Again, I've been quite busy the last few weeks. In this case it was a large number of slightly questionable things which triggered Minuteman initially. After blocking a user once, it is more likely to do it again. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 00:32, 28 December 2019 (EST)

==Delete request==
The misspelling "seige" should not appear in the search bar when typed in. Unless, of course, it is for someone's last name and is then the correct spelling. [[Seigenthaler]]

*[[Seige mentality]] - delete
*[[Seige of Troy]] - delete
[[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 17:50, 12 December 2019 (EST)

:Good catch! I've deleted them. I also created a redirect from [[Siege of Troy]]. Thanks! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 21:18, 12 December 2019 (EST)
::Thanks! Here's another one for delete and move. [[Chisholm v. Georgia]], [[Chisolm v. Georgia]]. The misspelled one should probably be kept for content, and the one I created deleted; then move to the correct spelling. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 19:12, 27 December 2019 (EST)
:::Done! --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 09:42, 28 December 2019 (EST)

::::Thanks 1990'sguy! I've also deleted the [[Chisolm v. Georgia]] redirect, since I don't think that will be beneficial to keep. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 14:33, 28 December 2019 (EST)

== Giggle Corp ==

Please see these pages: [[User talk:AmericanIronMan]], [[User talk:AmericanTonyStark]], [[Giggle, Corp.]] (red link, see deletion history), and [[Giggle, Inc.]] (red link, see deletion history) You might have a better idea than me on whether this article is notable enough to have an article on. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 19:08, 2 January 2020 (EST)

:"Giggle Corp" appears to be a small business (not sure if it's registered as such), and mygiggle.us has been online for less than two months. It's definitely not a big player right now, but it wants to be. The website still seems a bit rough around the edges. Before I make a solid decision, I'm hoping that I can engage this user in conversation. I have a few questions and suggestions for them. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:07, 2 January 2020 (EST)

::Sounds good. I wish Conservative didn't block the first account without engaging with him. --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 20:10, 2 January 2020 (EST)

:::Well, he came back so we still can talk. It looks like he's using a proxy connection, which is technically against the rules...then again having a second account is, too. I think he stands to gain a lot more than we do, since we will quite possibly put his service on the map. That means this subject probably falls into the "not sufficiently notable" category. Still, I'm hoping to talk with him. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 20:36, 2 January 2020 (EST)

::::Thank you sir, for your kind inquiry. I am not trying to necessarily take on Google. Google has its own legitimate following. I am trying to simply offer an alternative to major companies for individuals who would like to maintain a degree of privacy. In a world that is changing so fast, I believe that one of the things that helps us preserve our freedom is our privacy. Privacy should be an option for those who would like to maintain it. It is encouraging to me that there are outlets such as "Conservapedia" that share some of these same ideals. You are correct, our website is new, however it has been in development for three years now. The first very ugly version of it was hosted on a different domain but with the same concept being the respect of privacy of user information. As far as the question you thought might be "stupid", there are no stupid questions and I am grateful for the opportunity to clear up any confusion as to any connection to that Facebook account. Let me make it clear that we are not associated with that user or his affiliates. And as to feedback regarding the website mygiggle.us, any input you have we would greatly appreciate, as we consider your time extremely valuable. Thank you for your consideration and your time. --[[User:AmericanTonyStark|AmericanTonyStark]] ([[User talk:AmericanTonyStark|TALK]]) 20:24, 3 January 2020 (EST)

And thank you for the information! I think such alternatives are valuable. In hopes it will help you out, here is some (hopefully) constructive criticism:

It's great that you are interested in protecting your users' privacy. However, I did find a few things that gave me pause. I suspect your Terms of Service and Privacy Policy might have been made from a template, so perhaps it was not you saying these things.
#Your Privacy policy says that you "may" use web beacons. Why? This is a tracking technology, which seems to go against user privacy.
#Your Privacy policy says that you ignore "Do-not-track" requests. Admittedly, most websites do. You have the standard statement that there is no established industry standard, so you choose to ignore the users' requests for privacy altogether. It's a minor concern in my mind, but it doesn't sound very privacy-friendly. You could at least make sure to set a high privacy standard for all uses, then note in your privacy policy that all users are given the same high standard of privacy, whether or not they request it.
#Your Privacy policy says that you use cookies, but again, most people do. My question (which I did not investigate) is whether or not you use them for any purposes other than logging in users. Cookies must be used if users are going to log in to accounts. However, my concern would be whether or not they are used for any other purpose. Ideally, I would like to see cookies only added to client's devices when they log in. If they don't log in, don't issue a cookie. This might be hard to make happen though--I know web design is complex.
#Your site uses Google Tag manger. If I'm trying to stay away from companies abusing my data, using an alternative site which in turn uses Google services doesn't seem like it might be a good choice.

Other issues I noticed:
*The top-left logo has a background color which does not match the banner it is on. Perhaps you could use an image without a background. That shouldn't be too difficult, but even easier than that would be to at least change the image's background color to match the banner's color, so people don't notice.
*When the "clustered search" option is used, it brings up a list of "F-Clusters." This whole interface seemed a little confusing to me. What is it? How does it work? What does it do? Perhaps a little explanation of some sort, even just in the form of a "Help" link on that search result page might be helpful.
*When looking at your Privacy Policy, there are links at the top of the page to jump to specific section. That is a common thing to have, and I like it. However, when I click on one of those, it breaks out of your site's frame and loads this webpage instead: https://app.termly.io/dashboard/website/305072/privacy-policy

And a couple more comments:
*You are using CloudFlare, which is in itself fine. They seem to offer good services. However, you might want to be aware that they have "de-platformed" numerous conservative services and websites. If they don't like you for political reasons, they will throw you out. You probably won't have issues of this sort, but you might just want to keep that in mind.
*Lastly, your Terms of Service state that anyone other than government agencies and a couple other groups of people must get written approval from you in order to link to your website. Firstly, I don't see how you expect to enforce that. Secondly, why? If low-ranked websites link to you, are are not likely to be benefited in terms of your own page rank. However, this is how the web works...if you want to get noticed, you need people, anywhere and everywhere, to link to your site. It seems odd to me, therefore, that you are trying to prohibit such linking (not that anyone is actually probably going to read that anyway).

I hope your service can succeed! --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 18:05, 4 January 2020 (EST)

== Category clean-up ==

Best of luck with [https://www.conservapedia.com/Category:Firearms firearms TAR pit]. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 22:01, 4 January 2020 (EST)

Battle of Buckland Mills

2019-11-27T02:23:01Z

JohnZ: links

{{ACWbattle
|name=Battle of Buckland Mills Buckland Races, Chestnut Hill
|image=
|begin=October 19, 1863
|end=Same day
|place=Fauquier County, [[Virginia]]
|theater=Eastern Theater
|campaign=Bristoe Campaign
|result=[[Confederate States of America|Confederate]] victory
|combatants1=
|combatants2=
|commanders1=[[Judson Kilpatrick]] Major General, USA
|commanders2=[[J.E.B. Stuart]] Major General, CSA
|strength1=
|strength2=
|casualties1=230 total US and CS
|casualties2=230 total US and CS
}}
After defeat at Bristoe Station and an aborted advance on Centreville, [[J.E.B. Stuart|Stuart’s]] cavalry shielded the withdrawal of [[Robert E. Lee|Lee’s]] army from the vicinity of Manassas Junction. Union [[cavalry]] under Kilpatrick pursued Stuart’s cavalry along the Warrenton Turnpike but were lured into an ambush near Chestnut Hill and routed. The Federal troopers were scattered and chased five miles in an affair that came to be known as the “Buckland Races.” (''NPS summary'')

{{Campaignbox Bristoe}}
{{ACW Battles of 1863}}

[[Category:American Civil War Battles]]

2019 Chilean State of Emergency

2019-11-27T01:48:27Z

JohnZ: subbed intro

[[File:Barricada Santiago.jpg|350px|thumbnail|Barricades in [[Santiago]].]]
The '''2019 Chilean State of Emergency''' refers to unfolding civil protests and various acts of violence throughout [[Chile]] — led by [[socialists]] and [[communists]] — in response to a rise in the 'Metro' subway fare, inequality, falling wages and the rising cost of education and healthcare.<ref>Gomez, Christian (November 2, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/south-america/item/33923-socialist-protests-paralyze-chile Socialist Protests Paralyze Chile]. ''The New American''. Retrieved November 2, 2019.</ref><ref>[https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/south-america/item/33951-communist-war-on-chile Communist War on Chile]. ''The New American''. November 5, 2019. Retrieved November 5, 2019.</ref> The protests began in Chile's capital, [[Santiago]], on Friday October 18th as a coordinated fare evasion campaign by high school students. This quickly led to the destruction of several subway stations in Santiago and violent confrontations with the police and army units.

President [[Sebastián Piñera]] declared a state of emergency on October 19th, with curfews issued in several cities. Police have used tear gas, water cannon, rubber bullets and anti-riot shotguns as a last resort. There have been incidents of looting, and arson attacks on supermarkets, petrol stations and the high-rise headquarters of a major energy firm.

Community leaders called for volunteers to guard against rioters, and many civilians from the Santiago suburbs rushed to defend their local supermarkets. Styling themselves as 'Chalecos Amarillos' (Yellow Vests), many were armed with a variety of improvised weapons, including steel pipes, baseball bats, and air rifles.<ref>[https://www.lanacion.com.ar/el-mundo/los-chalecos-amarillos-chile-vecinos-patrullan-sus-nid2299816 Los "chalecos amarillos" de Chile: vecinos que patrullan sus barrios por temor a saqueos]</ref>

==Student involvement==

The protests began as a student-led demonstration against transport fares. In early October, the government announced that the metro rush hour prices would rise by 0.30 pesos ($US 0.04). Outrage grew after the price increase, leading secondary school students to conduct a mass fare evasion by jumping over the subway turnstiles, and, in some instances, destroying them.

On Thursday November 7th, high school students from 'Liceo Confederación Suiza' in Santiago attempted to raid retail shops in the suburb of Barrio 10 de Julio but local business owners armed with makeshift clubs and machetes foiled the surprise attack that was captured on film.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g-S2ohlbuE Locatarios enfrentan a manifestantes para proteger sus negocios]</ref>

On November 14th, disturbing video evidence emerged in the '[[Paralelo 33]]' YouTube Channel showing elementary school students aged 5-10 chanting anti-Piñera slogans while being openly encouraged by their leftist teachers in a clear campaign of political indoctrination in the Chilean education system.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDzxrOGG5DY El rol de la educación en la crisis chilena]</ref>

On November 22nd, high school students in a new coordinated campaign of civil disobedience, jumped turnstiles of the 'Metro' subway system and refused to pay bus fares throughout Santiago.<ref>[https://www.eldinamo.cl/nacional/2019/11/22/noche-violenta-en-chile-saqueos-y-hospital-quemado-en-coquimbo/ Jornada violenta en Chile: saqueos y hospital quemado en Coquimbo]</ref>

==Nationwide protests==

The unrest reportedly began as a protest over a 4-cent increase in subway fares and soon transformed into a larger movement over growing inequality in one of Latin America’s wealthiest countries.

Tension had already been mounting in the main Chilean cities in the years leading up to the riots: the unemployment rate was about 7.2 percent, a drug epidemic was ravaging the cities, and gang activity, violent crime and lack of respect for authority were high in the working-class suburbs with 7,000 street protests taking place from January 1st 2016 till mid-June 2017 that often ended in violent clashes with Chilean riot police.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gt04jAVClE Dentro de las Fuerzas Especiales | 21 días]</ref>

On October 18th, left-wing politician Gabriel Boric Font and lead-singer and guitarist Claudio Valenzuela from the rock band Lucybell took part in the anti-government protests at the 'Plaza Italia', and with TV cameramen capturing the event, both openly condemned the armed Chilean soldiers present that were keeping a watchful eye on the protesters.<ref>[https://www.cnnchile.com/pais/gabriel-boric-claudio-valenzuela-lucybell-video-militares-plaza-italia_20191019/ Diputado Gabriel Boric y Claudio Valenzuela de Lucybell encaran a militares: “¡Llevan armas de guerra!”]</ref>

On October 25th, over a million people took to the streets throughout Chile to protest against President Piñera, demanding his resignation.

Protests erupted again on October 28th despite President Piñera's decision to reshuffle his cabinet. On November 1st, about 1,000 women dressed in black, marched silently through Santiago's streets carrying flowers, calling for justice for the nearly two dozen people who had been killed in the unrest that had gripped Chile for two weeks.

==Anarchism==

During the night of October 18th, subway stations, supermarkets, and petrol stations were burned throughout Santiago, leading the president to call a state of emergency on Saturday October 19th. The [[New York Times]] reported:{{cquote|Around the city, flames and smoke mixed with tear gas and water cannon spray as armed forces mobilized on the streets for the first time in almost 30 years in a country that still shudders at the memory of military rule.<ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/10/21/world/americas/21reuters-chile-protests-scenes.html Chile's Deadly Weekend of Fire as Youth Anger Ignites]</ref>}}

On Monday, October 20th, many supermarkets, shopping malls, and cinemas remained closed as the protests continued. Curfews were imposed for that night in the Santiago Metropolitan Region, and the regions of Valparaíso, Biobío (including the regional capital, Concepción), and Coquimbo; as the curfew began in Santiago, many protesters remained on the street. Interior Minister Andrés Chadwick told reporters Monday that 110 supermarkets were looted and 13 buildings were set ablaze, including the head office of electricity firm 'Enel Chile'.

As rioting spread to other parts of the country, states of emergency were declared in the Valparaíso Region and Concepción Province. In an address to the nation that evening, President [[Sebastián Piñera]] announced the cancellation of the fare increase and the establishment of a dialogue panel, with representatives from across society, to discuss the underlying causes behind the unrest. Piñera also warned the country was ''"at war against a powerful enemy, who is willing to use violence without any limits"''.

Local authorities also announced the closure of schools on October 21st and 22nd in most suburbs of Santiago and across the province of Concepción. Television coverage of four MOWAG Piraña armored cars and supporting infantry from the 1st 'Buin' Regiment firing tear gas canisters repeatedly at roving looters in the affluent suburb of Las Condes was widely seen and controversial.

On October 23, violent protestors from 'Plaza Italia' under the cover of darkness set off to the 'Principado de Asturias' in the nearby suburb of Providencia and ransacked and destroyed great part of the hotel, after warning staff and foreign tourists to vacate the premises or perish in the resulting flames.<ref>[https://www.elpopular.pe/mundo/251690-chile-manifestantes-saquearon-destruyeron-conocido-hotel-video Manifestantes saquearon y destruyeron conocido hotel en Chile]</ref>

José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch in an interview acknowledged that:{{cquote|Prosecutors should also carry out prompt, thorough, and impartial investigations into serious crimes committed by demonstrators in recent days.
<ref>[Chile: Respect Rights in Protest Response]</ref>}}

On October 28th, frustrated protesters who had been dispersed from their attempts to march to the 'La Moneda' Presidential Palace, set fire and destroyed the nearby Restaurante La Piccola Italia just 700 metres from their intended target.<ref>[https://www.ellitoral.com/index.php/id_um/212453-chile-nuevos-saqueos-incendios-barricadas-y-enfrentamientos-20-muertos-internacionales.html Chile: Nuevos saqueos, incendios, barricadas y enfrentamientos]</ref>

On November 3rd, it was officially announced that the school year in several parts of Santiago had abruptly come to an end, for it was too dangerous for children of all ages to attend classes.<ref>[https://radio.uchile.cl/2019/11/03/santiago-decide-cerrar-ano-escolar-en-liceos-emblematicos-para-resguardar-a-estudiantes/ Santiago cierra año escolar en liceos emblemáticos para resguardar a estudiantes]</ref>

On November 4th, violent protesters in the city of Concepción set fire to the 'Caja de Compensación Los Andes' high rise building.
<ref>[https://www.diarioconcepcion.cl/ciudad/2019/11/03/incendio-afecta-a-varios-pisos-del-edificio-de-caja-los-andes-en-concepcion.html Incendio destruyó oficinas del Servel en Edificio Los Andes de Concepción]</ref>

On November 6th, with the slopes of Cerro San Cristobal overlooking Providencia set ablaze, it was reported that firefighters in Santiago alone had battled 1,600 fires in the period of October 18th-November 1st and were reaching breaking point.<ref>[https://www.fmdos.cl/noticias/bomberos-entrega-alarmante-cifra-sobre-los-incendios-en-santiago/ Bomberos entrega alarmante cifra sobre los incendios en Santiago]</ref>

On November 9th, leftist protestors completely looted a Roman Catholic church―Parroquia de la Asunción―in the Chilean capital.<ref>Felix, Esteban; Vergara, Eva (November 9, 2019). [https://apnews.com/9bdf447abb634194a0229656309c70be Church looted by vandals as protests rage in Chile’s capital]. ''The Epoch Times''. Retrieved November 9, 2019.</ref>In simultaneous attacks, protestors attacked the nearby Argentinian Embassy with rocks in a frustrated attempt to storm the building, set fire to the civil registry building in Providencia and completely destroyed with fire the Pedro de Valdivia University.<ref>[http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20191109/protestas-chile-incendian-edificio-historico-allanan-embajada-argentina-durante-protestas-chile/1989429.shtml Incendian un edificio histórico y allanan la embajada de Argentina durante las protestas en Chile]</ref>

On Monday 11th November, leftists protestors ransacked another church―Iglesia María Auxiliadora―in the City of Talca in the presence of the helpless firefighters from the nearby fire station.<ref>[https://www.maulee.cl/manifestantes-destruyen-imagenes-de-virgen-y-bancas-de-la-iglesia-maria-auxiliadora-en-talca/ Manifestantes destruyen imágenes de la virgen y bancas de la iglesia María Auxiliadora en Talca]</ref>

==Mob violence==
[[File:Flames in Santiago, Chile 2019.jpg|300px|thumbnail|Flames in 'Baquedano Square', Santiago, Chile 2019.]]
Protesters set fires, looted and destroyed liquor stores, grocery stores, retail shops, and fast-food restaurants. Security forces — both police and military — were clearly pelted with rocks; with several 'Carabineros' very nearly pulled out of their van and lynched in the suburb of Maipú on October 18th had it not been for the timely arrival of police reinforcements on foot that was captured on film.<ref>[http://www.resumenlatinoamericano.org/2019/10/25/chile-cientos-de-manifestantes-atacan-en-maipu-un-furgon-policial-y-vuelcan-toda-su-rabia-con-los-carabineros-por-su-accionar-brutal-de-estos-dias/ Chile. Cientos de manifestantes atacan en Maipú un furgón policial y vuelcan toda su rabia contra los Carabineros por su accionar brutal de estos días]</ref>

On October 21st, the Argentinian 'La Nación' TV crew covering events in Santiago was set upon by violent thugs, smashing and stealing equipment with cameraman Fabio Soria receiving a deep head wound that required hospitalization.<ref>[https://www.clarin.com/mundo/ataque-periodistas-manifestacion-consulado-chile-buenos-aires_0_IsLuI5QV.html Cómo fue el violento ataque a los periodistas durante la manifestación en el Consulado de Chile en Buenos Aires]</ref>

On October 31st, 947 carabiniers from Chile's 60,000-strong Police force were reported wounded or injured in clashes involving violent protesters―armed with rocks, petrol bombs and explosive slingshot rounds―since the start of the national emergency and resulting acts of largely leftist violence.<ref>[https://ciperchile.cl/2019/10/31/carabineros-informa-que-947-efectivos-han-sido-heridos-y-no-entrega-detalles-de-las-lesiones-de-786-de-ellos/ Carabineros informa 947 efectivos heridos sin entregar detalles de las lesiones de 786 ]</ref>

On November 4th, two young policewomen―Maria Jose Hernandez Torres, aged 25, and Abigail Catalina Aburto Cardenas, aged 20―suffered severe burns when hit by molotov cocktails launched by supposedly peaceful protesters gathered around 'Plaza Italia'.<ref>[http://web.observador.cl/video-funcionarias-de-ffee-de-carabineros-recibieron-bomba-molotov-en-pleno-rostro/ Funcionarias de FFEE de Carabineros recibieron bomba molotov en pleno rostro]</ref>

On November 6th, political commentator Fernando Villegas Darrouy informed listeners that Chilean police were fighting a losing battle, unable to draw their batons or even fire warning shots into the air for fear of being accused in the leftist media of using excessive force.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqY10Iv7No4 No hay fuerzas del orden | E297]</ref>

That day, violent protesters from 'Plaza Italia' marched to the head office of the [[Independent Democratic Union]] (''Unión Demócrata Independiente'' or UDI) in the suburb of Providencia and proceeded to ransack the place, destroying several computers in the process.<ref>[https://www.cooperativa.cl/noticias/pais/manifestaciones/manifestantes-atacaron-sede-de-la-udi-en-providencia/2019-11-06/170336.html Manifestantes atacaron sede de la UDI en Providencia]</ref>

On Wednesday 13th November, terrifying footage emerged of a large crowd from 'Plaza Italia' completely surrounding a police patrol van in an attempt to lynch the six 'carabineros' (including a female policewoman) trapped inside, but the driver was miraculously able to maintain himself calm and reverse his vehicle and force open a path through the frenzied mob.<ref>[https://www.infobae.com/america/america-latina/2019/11/13/el-impresionante-ataque-masivo-contra-un-camion-de-carabineros-en-santiago-de-chile-filmado-desde-adentro/ El impresionante ataque masivo contra un camión de carabineros en Santiago de Chile, filmado desde adentro]</ref>

During the national strike on November 21st, protesters in northern Chile destroyed the 'San Pablo' hospital in the port city of Coquimbo while leftists in Santiago set ablaze the 'Arauco' shopping mall in the suburb of Quilicura.<ref>[https://www.eldinamo.cl/nacional/2019/11/22/noche-violenta-en-chile-saqueos-y-hospital-quemado-en-coquimbo/ Jornada violenta en Chile: saqueos y hospital quemado en Coquimbo]</ref>

==Political agitators==

On October 22nd, veteran journalist [[Hermógenes Pérez de Arce]] blamed the Chilean [[Communist Party]] ('Partido Comunista de Chile' or PCCh) and her political allies for the initial wave of destruction, pointing out that as a young teenager he witnessed the 'Revolución de la Chaucha' unfold when 50,000 protesters angry over the rise in bus fares had ransacked downtown Santiago and completely overwhelmed police in running street battles from June 16th-17th 1949 before the intervention of the Chilean Army with orders to shoot-to-kill that finally stamped out the leftist violence.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6sMSNeq29g No hay tal crisis social / Comentarios de Hermogenes]</ref><ref>[https://www.guioteca.com/mitos-y-enigmas/la-violenta-revolucion-de-la-chaucha-cuando-santiago-fue-un-campo-de-batalla-por-alza-en-el-transporte-publico/ La violenta “revolución de la chaucha”: Cuando Santiago fue un campo de batalla por alza en el transporte público]</ref>Pérez de Arce witnessed a repeat of the communist tactics during the 'Batalla de Santiago' in early April 1957 when protesters again went on a rampage over a rise in bus fares in the Chilean capital, targeting shops, buses, civilian cars and policemen before the intervention of army reinforcements under General Horacio Gamboa with orders to shoot-to-kill―after first firing warning shots―that quickly restored order in Santiago and elsewhere.<ref>[https://interferencia.cl/articulos/historiador-experto-la-huelga-de-la-chaucha-reflejo-muy-bien-el-agotamiento-de-los Historiador experto: “La 'Huelga de la chaucha' reflejó muy bien el agotamiento de los santiaguinos”]</ref>

On November 26th, Chilean police investigating reports of a burglary in the headquarters of the Communist Party in the city of Calama in northern Chile, discovered six large bottles of fire accelerants, rock projectiles and plastic face masks, arresting three PCCh members in the premises.<ref>[https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nacional/region-de-antofagasta/2019/11/26/3-detenidos-en-sede-pc-en-calama-advierten-porte-de-liquido-incendiario-y-dirigentes-acusan-montaje.shtml 3 detenidos en sede PC en Calama: advierten porte de líquido incendiario y dirigentes acusan montaje]</ref>

==Media collusion==

On Wednesday November 13th, [[José Antonio Kast]] head of the conservative [[Republican Party (Chile)|Republican Party]] ('Partido Republicano') in Chile―in an interview with the 'Tele 13' radio station―criticized the Piñera administration for not countering the negative international coverage of the police crackdown on the protesters and condemnation on the part of the various human rights groups of the of the police tactics, with video evidence of the widespread destruction of the Santiago subway 'Metro' network and Kast also explained that protesters had been firing dumdum rounds from slingshots and many 'violentistas' (thugs) had consequently been blinded in the defensive barrage from carabiniers firing rubber bullets and―as a last resort―shotgun pellets into the angry crowds.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g4FgpXfFKU José Antonio Kast Tele13Radio - 13 noviembre 2019]</ref>.

The Argentinian 'Telefe' TV team under journalist [[Abigail Hermo]] that extensively covered without restriction the protests in Santiago during October, openly sided with the anti-Piñera multitude gathered around 'Plaza Italia' and repeatedly condemned the presence of carabiniers and soldiers in the streets.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP78KLm-xb0 Abigail Hermo recibe ATAQUE en las PROTESTAS de CHILE - Telefe Noticias]</ref>The 'Telefe' crew under journalist Mariano García dispatched to Bolivia to cover the overthrow of President Evo Morales in November also sided with the leftist protesters but were soon called out by Roxana Lizárraga, the Minister of Communications, and threatened with incarceration and abandoned the country in haste after being labelled "seditious" and "pseudojournalists".<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpSA5YRQvdQ EVACUARON a PERIODISTAS ARGENTINOS en BOLIVIA - Telefe Noticias]</ref>

==Foreign interference==

In December 2018, it was reported that multi-billionare globalist [[George Soros]] was financing Chilean leftist movements that were aiming to make changes to the Constitution of Chile in order to reverse President Sebastian Piñera's decision to not sign the [[Global Compact for Migration]].<ref>[https://argentinatoday.org/2018/12/23/chile-george-soros-quiere-quitarle-el-poder-al-presidente-del-pais-para-que-no-pueda-oponerse-a-acuerdos-globales-del-nuevo-orden-mundial/ Chile : George Soros Quiere Quitarle el Poder al Presidente Del País Para Que no Pueda Oponerse a Acuerdos Globales del Nuevo Orden Mundial]</ref> Soros also financed the left-wing political party [[Democratic Revolution]] previously.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nacional/chile/2016/10/03/revolucion-democratica-reconoce-aporte-de-fundacion-perteneciente-a-magnate-estadounidense.shtml|title=Revolución Democrática reconoce aporte de fundación perteneciente a magnate estadounidense|publisher=BiobíoChile.cl|date=October 3, 2016|language=es}}</ref>

The leftist mobs in the current crisis have been supported by the international leftist movement in the form of the [[Sao Paulo Forum]], the [[Puebla Group]] and [[Nicolás Maduro]].<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.infobae.com/america/venezuela/2019/10/20/nicolas-maduro-respondio-las-acusaciones-de-alentar-las-protestas-en-ecuador-y-chile-foro-de-sao-paulo-estamos-cumpliendo-el-plan-ustedes-me-entienden/|title=Nicolás Maduro habló sobre las acusaciones de alentar las protestas en Ecuador y Chile: “Foro de San Pablo, estamos cumpliendo el plan, ustedes me entienden...”|language=es|date=October 20 2019|publisher=Infobae}}</ref>

On November 8th, Danny Ramírez, a leading figure from the Venezuelan opposition living in exile in Chile―in an interview with Gonzalo de la Carrera from 'Radio Agricultura'―blamed Cuban intelligence officers for the mayhem in Chile.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_lYpfwEwaY DIRECTO AL GRANO JUNTO A GONZALO DE LA CARRERA]</ref>

On November 10th, it was reported in [[The New American]] that foreign agents operating from the Cuban Embassy in Santiago were indeed fomenting the violent protests and the resulting national instability.<ref>Gomez, Christian (November 10, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/south-america/item/33997-dgi-defector-cuban-intelligence-behind-chile-protests DGI Defector: Cuban Intelligence Behind Chile Protests]. ''The New American''. Retrieved November 10, 2019.</ref>

==Police/Military mobilization==

Chile's 60,000-strong carabinier (Police) force were fully mobilized with officers on 16 hour shifts (with a 4-hour break in between) with convoy patrols, Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm Bo 105 helicopters, street barricades, tactical command centers, and reinforcements from the Anfofogasta based 1st (Desert) Army Infantry Division, the local Santiago Army Garrison and Marines from Carriel Sur in northern Chile.<ref>[https://www.infodefensa.com/latam/2019/10/21/noticia-gobierno-chile-decreta-estado-emergencia-violencia-saqueos.html Chile despliega soldados y policías tras decretar el Estado de Emergencia]</ref>

On the seventh day, 2,000 soldiers of the 21st 'Miller' and 31st 'Aldea' Marine Infantry Battalions and 1,500 Marines of the 41st 'Hurtado' Combat Support and 51st 'Olave' Logistic Support Battalions arrived to reinforce the police and army forces already in the coastal cities of [[Valparaíso]], Viña del Mar and Talcahuano.<ref>[https://www.infodefensa.com/latam/2019/10/25/noticia-infanteria-marina-chile-despliega-estado-emergencia.html La Infantería de Marina de Chile despliega sus Kia ante el Estado de Emergencia]</ref>It was the first significant amphibious operation by the Chilean Marine Corps since the mopping-up operations conducted in Viña del Mar during the 1973 military coup that removed Marxist President Salvador Allende from power.

In an interview with 'Tele 13' (T13) on October 29th, General Mario Alberto Rozas-Córdova, commander of the Chilean Police revealed that over 800 carabiniers had sustained serious wounds/injuries maintaining law and order during the nationwide protests with 140 police officers badly wounded or injured in the violence.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UriwQwdmCgI Director de Carabineros: “Nos quieren criminalizar por cumplir un mandato constitucional”]</ref>

On 30th October, T13 in a follow-up report claimed that 919 carabiniers had been wounded/injured and interviewed several male and female police officers―from their hospital beds―that had been seriously wounded or injured in the clashes with the violent protesters armed with rocks, petrol bombs and dumdum bullets fired from slingshots.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHGo7UabRQ Registran 919 Carabineros heridos en la última semana]</ref>

==Human rights==

Amnesty International was reported to be monitoring very closely the actions of the Chilean authorities since they declared a state of emergency and urged the government to listen to the population’s grievances and take practical measures in response. The organization was reported to have sent an open letter to President Sebastián Piñera on October 20th.
''“Instead of likening the demonstrations to a ‘state of war’ and calling protestors enemies of the State, stigmatizing them in a generalized way in an attempt to justify abuses against them, President Piñera’s government should listen to them and give a serious response to their legitimate grievances”'', said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Americas director at Amnesty International.

On October 30th, Jorge Ortiz Silva―a former Marxist guerrilla in the Revolutionary Left Movement and current chief of finance officer of the National Human Rights Institute―was caught feigning serious injury in a staged attack, which the mainstream media had earlier wrongly reported to have been a deliberate attack with anti-riot shotgun pellets on the INDH official that was supposedly shot in the leg despite wearing the corresponding NGO uniform that included an orange vest and yellow helmet.<ref>[https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nacional/chile/2019/10/30/tongo-no-secuencia-de-videos-demuestran-heridas-de-balines-a-observador-del-indh.shtml ¿Tongo? No. Secuencia de videos demuestran heridas de balines a observador del INDH ]</ref>

On November 10th, Brent McDonald from the [[New York Times]] uploaded a video in which he interviewed several protesters that had lost an eye to rubber bullets or anti-riot shotgun pellets in the nationwide protests.<ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/americas/100000006795557/chile-protesters-shot-eye.html ‘It’s Mutilation’: The Police in Chile Are Blinding Protesters]</ref>.

That day, Mario Alberto Rozas-Córdova as commander of the Chilean police explained to reporters that anti-riot shotguns were only used as a last resort when his carabiniers were facing "imminent danger" from individuals that were "vandals and deliquents".<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9rUPqWdTlg Carabineros ordena uso "acotado" de escopetas antimotines en manifestaciones]</ref>.

==Yellow Vests==
[[File:Yellow Vest Chile 2019.jpg|200px|thumbnail|Yellow Vests in the form of civilians defending private property.]]
On October 23rd, neighbours in the Maipú suburb of Santiago rallied in defence of their local supermarket, beating up with improvised clubs the fleeing rioters that had largely ransacked the place before the arrival of police and reinforcements in the form of local 'Chalecos Amarillos' (Yellow Vests).<ref>[https://www.24horas.cl/nacional/vecinos-expulsan-a-palos-y-patadas-a-saqueadores-en-supermercado-en-maipu-3679320 Vecinos expulsan a palos y patadas a saqueadores en supermercado en Maipú]</ref>.

On October 29th, shop owners and neighbours wearing yellow vests in Quillota in central Chile were forced to arm themselves with baseball bats after violent protesters had burnt down great part of the popular 'Feria Modelo del Parque Aconcagua' and nearby branch of 'Banco Scotiabank'.<ref>[https://www.puranoticia.cl/noticias/regiones/quillota-bajo-ataque-vandalos-saquearon-quemaron-y-destruyeron-varios/2019-10-29/074814.html Quillota bajo ataque: vándalos saquearon, quemaron y destruyeron varios locales comerciales]</ref>

On Tuesday 5th November, the Yellow Vests in Reñaca and Concón―both major tourist attractions for their local beaches and night life―rallied to defend their seaside towns with improvised weapons, turning back a large mob marching in their direction from nearby Viña del Mar.<ref>[https://www.cnnchile.com/pais/chalecos-amarillos-golpe-bate-renaca_20191105/ “Chalecos amarillos” se enfrentan con manifestantes en Reñaca: Hubo una agresión con un bate]</ref>

On Sunday 10th November, the so-called "peaceful protestors" returned and ransacked several business in Reñaca, set ablaze the popular 'Restaurante Mastrantonio' and throw stones at the windows of the private high rise apartments that overlook the local beaches.<ref>[https://www.cooperativa.cl/noticias/pais/manifestaciones/severos-incidentes-se-registraron-en-renaca-tras-manifestacion-en-la/2019-11-10/212123.html Severos incidentes se registraron en Reñaca tras manifestación en la playa]</ref>

The next day, a local 'Yellow Vest' resident in the form of John Cobin from the United States, was arrested for having fired warning shots and wounding a protestor in the leg in an attempt to disperse the violent mob that had taken over the streets of Reñaca the previous day.<ref>[http://www.elpais.cr/2019/11/11/justicia-chilena-apresa-a-un-ciudadano-estadounidense-que-intento-matar-a-un-manifestante/Justicia chilena apresa a un ciudadano estadounidense que intentó matar a un manifestante]</ref>

==Deaths and arrests==

On October 24th, the Chilean government reported that 18 people had been killed during the demonstrations, the night curfews and various acts of arson. According to the National Human Rights Institute (''Instituto Nacional de Derechos Humanos'' or INDH), five of these fatalities were at the hands of the security forces, the remainder largely victims of arson. The INDH has also reported that some 2,600 people have been detained and 584 injured, 245 of them by firearms.

The next day, the elite police drug squad from the 'Departamento O.S.7 Drogas y Estupefacientes' in a warning of things to come, conducted 12 televised dawn raids in the suburbs of Peñalolén, La Florida, El Bosque, San Bernardo and Puente Alto in Santiago, arresting 7 citizens that were caught in security footage taking part in the first week of looting.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cONYak4r8_w Carabineros identifica a algunos de los involucrados en saqueos por sus vehículos]</ref>

On October 29th, Professor Roberto Campos-Weiss from the 'Universidad del Desarrollo' (UDD) became the first citizen formally charged with taking part in the destruction of the Santiago subway network, after video evidence emerged showing him taking part in the destruction of the turnstiles of the San Joaquín Train Station.<ref>[https://www.cnnchile.com/pais/profesor-suspendido-universidad-del-desarrollo-formalizado-destrozos-metro_20191031/ Profesor es suspendido por la Universidad del Desarrollo tras ser formalizado por destrozos a estación de Metro]</ref>

On October 30th, 42 televised police raids were conducted in the Santiago suburbs of Quilicura, Talagante, Maipú and Conchalí resulting in the arrest of 7 people caught in possession of stolen goods.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlzrCfILZGs Saqueadores podrían perder autos incautados]</ref>In all, 71 citizens that had taken part in the initial wave of destruction throughout Chile were reported to have been finally apprehended in the police crackdown that day.<ref>[https://www.mega.cl/noticias/nacional/280704-carabineros-saqueos-detenidos-carabineros-balance.html Carabineros reporta 71 detenidos por saqueos en 11 comunas del país]</ref>

On November 13th, the Chilean government reported that 833 civilians and 1,232 carabiniers and soldiers had been wounded in the nationwide violence.<ref>[https://www.eluniverso.com/noticias/2019/11/13/nota/7601531/cidh-preocupada-ataques-oculares-protestas-chile CIDH preocupada por ataques oculares en protestas en Chile]</ref>

That day, it was reported that Judge Graciel Muñoz from the 12th Court in Santiago had granted permission for Gabriel Boric, Diego Ibáñez, Gael Yeomans and Gonzalo Winter from the 'Frente Amplio' (Broad Front) left-wing political coalition―in a clear show of solidarity with criminals―to visit Professor Campos-Weiss in the maximum security prison housing him.<ref>[https://www.latercera.com/la-tercera-pm/noticia/diputados-boric-ibanez-yeomans-y-winter-visitaran-en-la-cas-a-profesor-imputado-por-destrozos-en-el-metro/899212/ Diputados Boric, Ibáñez, Yeomans y Winter son autorizados para visitar en la cárcel a profesor imputado por destrozos en el Metro]</ref>

==Economic fallout==

The Metro subway damage/destruction sustained is estimated to be at least $US 300 million.<ref>[https://www.infobae.com/america/america-latina/2019/10/20/los-danos-en-el-metro-de-santiago-de-chile-superan-los-usd-300-millones-y-la-recuperacion-demorara-varios-meses/ Los daños en el Metro de Santiago de Chile superan los USD 300 millones y la recuperación demorará varios meses]</ref>

On November 18th, the [[Financial Post]] reported that the nationwide protests had left at least 23 dead, 2,365 civilians hospitalized and as many as 14,000 arrested with the finance minister estimating the damage to be $US 3 billion.<ref>[https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/with-stores-burned-and-looted-walmart-seeks-police-protection-in-riot-hit-chile With stores burned and looted, Walmart seeks police protection in riot-hit Chile]</ref>

==Social reform==

Santiago City Mayors responded in various ways, including forming vigilante groups such as the 'Chalecos Amarillos' (Yellow Vests) and with richer suburbs increasing efforts to build collaborative links with the working class suburbs through initiatives like the Las Condes-La Pintana Association.<ref>[https://www.latercera.com/nacional/noticia/municipalidad-las-condes-dona-mil-millones-pesos-al-municipio-la-pintana/876620/ Municipalidad de Las Condes dona mil millones pesos al municipio de La Pintana]</ref>

On October 22nd, President [[Sebastián Piñera]], a billionaire conservative who has been criticized for his timid response to the violence, promised to increase the basic pension by 20% and the minimum wage from $US 413 to $US 482. He also pledged tax rises on high-income earners, a law that would see the state cover the costs of expensive medical treatment, affordable over-the-counter medicine and the cancellation of a planned electricity rate hike.

However, emboldened protesters rejected President Piñera's political concessions as major demonstrations continued across the country demanding greater equality and constitutional changes.

On November 14th, President Piñera conceded more ground to leftist politicians and militants on the streets—the offer to rewrite the Chile’s constitution. In a desperate move by the president to control the riots; he announced that a national plebiscite would be held in April 2020 to determine whether Chileans want a new constitution.

[[Johannes Kaiser]], a popular conservative political commentator criticized the policy of appeasement on the part of the Piñera administration:{{cquote|How does it feel to be a member of parliament, senator or deputy of the [[Independent Democrat Union|UDI]] or [[National Renewal]], people that won 54 percent of the votes and realize you have all been fooled like toddlers?, and finally understand that we the people of Chile realize your worth, Zero, Nothing, a completely useless lot, all the millions you claimed you were worth, you do not deserve 1 peso of those earnings.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD_BM4b9mF4 Desde la Moneda: la rendición condicional]</ref>}}

== Notes ==
{{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}

[[Category:Chilean History]]
[[Category:Chilean Politics]]
[[Category:Wars]]
[[Category:Terrorism]]

Talk:Ukraine

2019-11-25T04:24:53Z

JohnZ:

::{{template|Part of this article was copied from [[Citizendium]] and [[Wikipedia]] ||category=Copied Articles}} [[User:RJJensen|RJJensen]] 18:27, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

does the following phrase contain a typo or just a word I don't know? "and remaining food wtocks were forcibly removed"? Jsparks 03 May 2011

==Ukrainian nationalists==
It may be a bit of hype to claim all Ukrainians are for use of the Ukrainian dialect, spellings, etc. The Russians are true multiculturalists, and many Ukrainians are for positive integration and cooperation with both Russians who are resident in Ukraine, and their Russian Federation neighbor. There is also a segment of Ukrainian nationalists - many who are quite literally fascists and hate Russians, Jews, Poles, etc. The Soviet Union battled them throughout its existence. The Nazis used them to commit atrocities on civilians. The United States, under [[James V. Forrestal]], mistakenly considered them anti-communists, when in fact their true motivation is anti-ethnic Russian hatred. Since czarist times, these Ukrainian nationalists view Russia, later the USSR, and now the Russian Federation as seeking to dominate and control Ukrainians. Not all Ukrainians then, or now, hold this belief.

The well publicized culture of corruption can be cited as to why the Ukraine (like Palestine), may not be fit to hold the status of a sovereign state. It is not a "frontline" state, as Deep Staters repeatedly announced in the impeachment hearings. Sevastopol will never be a NATO naval base, anymore than the UK would allow [[Dublin]], [[Ireland]] to be a [[U-boat]] sanctuary during two World Wars.

There are Ukrainian integrationists, let's call them moderates, who are not on a crusade to use the language and spellings. Many Ukrainian nationalists who drive these issues are widely considered Nazis and fascists. We should be careful in the Intro of implying there is an all-out ethnic war between Russians and Ukrainians. There is not. There are, however, Ukrainian nationalists and fascists, such as [[Alexandra Chalupa]] and [[Alexander Vindman]], many resident in the Ukrainian Diaspora community, who will manipulate the Russian and American superpowers (even German and other EU members) to serve Ukrainian nationalist and fascist objectives.

Question: When did the Ukrainian nationalist community jump ship from the anti-communist GOP to the Democrats in the United States? 
Answer: In 1992, with George H.W. Bush's famous "Chicken Kiev" speech to the Ukrainian parliament, encouraging them to remain in the Russian Federation. The Clinton administration solidified this bloc with the Budapest Protocols of 1994 recognizing Ukrainian independence. With all the corruption we've seen, of paying Paul Manafort, the Podesta brothers, and Hunter Biden protection money to a big state sponsor, is just a continuation of the corruption during Soviet times.

Khrushchev, who was a fully integrated Ukrainian multiculturalist, served on the [[Politburo]] to represent Ukrainian interests and eventually rose to head of state. Khrushchev rewarded Ukraine with the Crimea (without a plebiscite of its Russian ethnic majority) in 1954 because he believed communist ideology had defeated Ukrainian ethno-fascism for all time. Khrushchev won his position in the Soviet hierarchy because he organized Ukrainians into the [[Red Army]] ''against'' the Germans ''and'' their allied Ukrainian [[Banderist]]s - the [[Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists]] - which (1) served the Waffen SS, (2) organized the Ukrainian parliament in 1992, (3) took over the Democratic Ethnic Outreach Council (DEOC) after Clinton's recognition of Ukraine in 1994, and which Alexandra Chalupa is a director; (here's an interesting item from 1988, ''[https://www.jta.org/1988/09/26/archive/ex-nazis-among-leadership-ranks-of-republican-outreach-groups Ex-nazis Among Leadership Ranks of Republican Outreach Groups]''; those same ex-Nazis and their ideology have now, for the past 25 years, been in the leadership ranks of the Democratic party, Chalupa and Vindman being two of the most visible).

Bottomline: We should be careful about pandering to anti-Russian [[xenophobe]]s on the issue of the Ukrainian language. It is exactly what they want, and it's being used as a prime issue to impeach a president and overturn American democracy. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:14, 23 November 2019 (EST)

===This is no small issue===
[[File:Azov Battalion.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Even in Soviet times, NATO was regarded as a fascist entity continuing the fight of the Third Reich. In this picture, you see Biden's buddies with both the Swastika and NATO flags.]]
The current fighting is in the Donbass region, site of [Mamiya Hill] and the [https://mamayevkurgan.wordpress.com/2012/09/30/monument-to-the-liberators-of-the-donbass-donetsk-ukraine/ Monument to the Liberators of the Donbass, Donetsk, Ukraine] commemorating the victory at [[Stalingrad]]. Hitler chose this ethnically mixed region to exploit anti-Russian sentiment and bet the farm on the outcome of the war. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC4fE6sm4r8 Here's a Soviet era film narrated by Burt Lancaster taped on Mamiya Hill] (well worth watching, at least the first 5 minutes). A week ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPtqlo78LVA Russian TV announced the monument is being restored.] Here's the [http://www.russianswords.com/Stalin-english.htm Sword of Stalingrad being presented to Stalin by Churchill and FDR] at the [[Teheran Conference]]. The Sword is depicted in Europe's tallest monument on Mamiya Hill.

All this we are supposed to forget. The Russians are supposed to ignore their own history and their victory over fascism. These are essentially the arguments behind ''"Ukraine is a frontline state"'', ''"aid to Ukraine"'', and ''"Russian expansionism"'' (there is no Russian expansionism; there is however NATO expansionism).

The pro-Deep State, [[military industrial complex]], pro-Ukraine, anti-Russian impeachment movement is essentially for the US and NATO to go to Crimea and the Donbass and finish the job that Hitler screwed up. Wake up! [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 16:44, 23 November 2019 (EST)

:All of which reminds me we never settled on your Christmas present. How about a nice [https://society6.com/product/vladimir-putin-funny-meme_duvet-cover?sku=s6-9425821p38a46v382 bare-chested Putin riding a shark duvet cover]? [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 17:33, 23 November 2019 (EST)

::Putin will be gone before Trump. You and your Ukrainian neo-Nazi buddies and Democrats need to find the next Russian leader to demonize. The issues remain the same. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:54, 23 November 2019 (EST)

:::Haha. 30-odd GOP senators aren't facing the voters in 2020, and are thus free to vote with their conscience. Plenty of them despise Trump. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 19:01, 23 November 2019 (EST)

::::Really? You are so far off base you can be called out with a softball toss to first base. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:38, 23 November 2019 (EST)

:::::Bless your heart. You think the likes of Romney, Rubio and Cruz aren't itching to pull the trigger? That the establishment GOP doesn't want its party back? They'll break late and quick, [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/it-took-a-long-time-for-republicans-to-abandon-nixon/ just like they did with Nixon]. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 23:40, 23 November 2019 (EST)

::::::Republicans are not opportunists for momentary advantage (unlike Commucrats). The notion of precedent still applies. An impeachment of Trump on such flimsy terms would basically destroy Article I of the Constitution, all Supreme Court precedents on [[Executive Privilege]], the Bill of Rights, and host of other Amendments. It's not Trump's career at stake, it is the future of the Office of the Presidency, constitutional due process rights of all citizens, and voter rights. GOP is just baiting the hook for the Commucrats to go down this road.

::::::Politicians have a saying in America, "Never stand in the way of your opponent as he self destructs." All GOP House and Senate members know full well a vote against Trump is the death knell of the Republican party. The Commucrats will survive, but the Democrat party is currently self-destructing.

::::::Trump has already destroyed both - the GOP establishment and the DNC establishment. Targeting Trump only makes Deep State crimes more of an emotional issue for Trump supporters. Both Kennedy and Nixon (who ran against each other in 1960) were railroaded out of town by the Deep State; Trump is their third attempt at overturning an American election (I seriously doubt if [[social media]] existed in 1974, the [[fake news]] media could've won against Nixon). The result has been endless wars and [[imperialism]]. The American people want their government back. That is not really a partisan issue. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:25, 24 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::You forget quite how far removed you are from the thinking of the average GOP senator. You might not like it, but for them you're living in a shack out on the very farthest edges of Crazytown. They want your vote, for sure, but they don't take many of your concerns the least bit seriously. They also know you loathe liberals and Democrats in general, and are unlikely to abandon the party for good as long as it remains solid on issues like 2A and abortion.

:::::::So for those not up for re-election until 2022 or 2024, the only real questions are a) how angry are you still likely to be with them when primary season next rolls around, and b) how likely is it they'll face a viable challenger willing and able to harness that ''Dolchstoß'' anger?

:::::::"Considerably less" is a fairly safe bet for a), given that liberals are bound to have done something to enrage you in the meantime, and "not very" is equally safe for b), given the relative scarcity of genuinely charismatic populist demagogues. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 23:24, 24 November 2019 (EST)

===Soviet battle songs (!) / Huntington's take===

::::::Watch the first 5 minutes of the Russian/Burt Lancaster film linked above; then wonder why Angela Merkel refuses to help the Ukraine against Russia, and why Democrats want Trump to pick up where Hitler left off. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:41, 24 November 2019 (EST)

::::::The music at the start of that film is "The Sacred War" battle song from WWII, which is performed regularly at public concerts throughout Russia, particularly since 2014. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il3FJMf4mSE Read the lyrics here] and watch a 2 minute performance. These fascist vermin scum testifying before Schiff's committee, and any idiot fool who listens to them, have no idea what they are trying to get America into. The NATO flag will never fly over Crimea.
::::::And note, even though the song is not the Russian national anthem, people rise to their feet, you don't see any kneelers - easily verifiable by the dozens of public performances posted on Youtube in the past two years. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 03:34, 24 November 2019 (EST)

'''Huntington's take'''
{{cquote|In 1993, Samuel Huntington put the cat among the international relations pigeons with an article in ''Foreign Affairs'' magazine titled speculatively “The Clash of Civilizations?” He expanded it to book length and it was published in 1996 as ''The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order''. The book was immediately condemned by the multi-cultural complex because of its staunch defence of Western values, but its stock rose significantly after 9/11 as people woke up to the reality that the new, anti-Western barbarians were already at the gates....

In chapter 7, which deals with “Core States, Concentric Circles and Civilizational Order”, he looks at “Russia and its Near Abroad” and lays out several scenarios for Ukraine, “a cleft country, with two different cultures.” Its “civilizational fault line between the West and Orthodoxy runs through its heart and has done so for centuries” says Huntington and '''he suggests that “Ukraine could split into two separate entities, the eastern of which could merge with Russia.” He also quotes a Russian general as saying, “Ukraine or rather Eastern Ukraine will come back in five, ten or fifteen years. Western Ukraine can go to hell!”''' This leads him to conclude: “Such a rump Uniate and Western-oriented Ukraine, however, would only be viable if it had strong and effective Western support. Such support, is, in turn likely to be forthcoming only if relations between the West and Russia deteriorated seriously and came to resemble those of the Cold War.”

And here we are 2014, where relations between the West and Russia have deteriorated seriously and talk of a new Cold War fills the air. Huntington rewards reading.[http://www.eamonn.com/2014/03/20/huntington-and-the-clash-of-civilizations-in-ukraine/]}}
Thank you Barack Obama, A**h***. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 04:50, 24 November 2019 (EST)

:Good grief. The "civilizational fault line" runs right through Russia, too, which you'd know if you weren't such a rotten student of history. Pretty much its entire 18th and 19th centuries can be described as a back-and-forth between an Enlightenment-inspired desire to modernise and a reactionary conservative Slav-ism. It's even possible to see echoes of the schism in Trotsky's expansionist revolutionary ideal vs. Stalin's inward-looking "socialism in one country".

:And whilst we're talking about Stalin, you seem oblivious to such trifles as the [[Ukrainian genocide|Ukrainian famine / genocide of 1932-33]], which offers a perfectly good rationale for WWII Ukrainian nationalist sentiment without any need to invoke fascist rabble-rousing. Couple that with the general brutality of life under the Soviet regime and it's difficult to understand how an avowed anti-communist like yourself can be so blithely dismissive of ordinary Ukrainians' desire to be free of Soviet / Russian influence.

:Were there fascist collaborators in WWII? Sure. Just like there were fascist collaborators in every other country the Nazis invaded. Are there fascist / neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine today? Sure. Just like there are fascist / neo-Nazi groups everywhere else, including America. Are these groups representative of the general population? Of course not, and no sane person would claim otherwise.

:I'll note once again the hilarity of watching you faithfully parrot Russian talking points on Ukraine: an erstwhile scourge of the Reds, now playing the useful idiot for Putin because it suits your newfound enthusiasm for US isolationism. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 23:24, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Talk:Ukraine

2019-11-24T04:40:42Z

JohnZ: /* This is no small issue */

Talk:Ukraine

2019-11-24T00:01:45Z

JohnZ: /* This is no small issue */

O’Sullivan’s First Law

2019-11-23T23:51:01Z

JohnZ: /* Examples */ subbed

[[File:Phyllis_Schlafly_speaking_at_CPAC_1988_and_William_Rusher.jpg|thumb|[[Phyllis Schlafly]] speaking at [[CPAC]] in 1988, when it was more [[conservative]]. William Rusher applauds. But in more than three decades since then, CPAC has drifted to the [[Leftist|Left]] and to the non-conservative agenda of some of its sponsors.]]
'''O'Sullivan’s First Law''' describes the leftward drift of many [[politician]]s, leaders, and organizations. First coined by John O'Sullivan in 1989, it states: "All organizations that are not actually [[right-wing]] will over time become [[left-wing]]."<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20030707094659/https://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/flashback-jos062603.asp O’Sullivan’s First Law], [[National Review]]</ref>

==Examples==
*The [[Drudge Report]]'s leftward shift.<ref>Duke, Selwyn (January 17, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/28057-whatfinger-news-what-the-drudge-report-was-meant-to-be “Whatfinger News”: What the Drudge Report Was Meant to Be]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 19, 2018.</ref><ref>Richardson, Valerie (November 21, 2019). [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/nov/21/matt-drudge-drudge-report-anti-trump-pivot-alarms-/ Et tu, Drudge? Alarm grows on right over site's anti-Trump pivot]. ''The Washington Times''. Retrieved November 21, 2019.</ref> To some extent, also that of [[Fox News]]<ref>Nolte, John (November 19, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2018/11/19/did-fox-news-cost-gop-orange-county/ Did Fox News Cost the GOP Orange County?] ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 19, 2018.</ref> and the ''[[National Review]]''.<ref>Byas, Steve (January 18, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/31222-national-review-continues-to-be-a-trojan-horse-inside-the-gates-of-conservatism National Review Continues to be a Trojan Horse Inside the Gates of Conservatism]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 18, 2019.</ref>
*Christian colleges, such as [[Wheaton College]], which first compromised on [[Biblical inerrancy]] and evolution, then increasingly on other issues like abortion,<ref>Bomberger, Ryan (December 6, 2018). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/i-went-to-wheaton-to-talk-abortion-the-student-govt-flipped-out I went to Wheaton to talk [[abortion]]. The student gov’t flipped out]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved December 6, 2018.</ref> [[homosexuality]], [[feminism]], and [[Islam]]. Azusa Pacific University also has drifted far from its Christian roots.<ref>Newman, Alex (December 12, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/item/30896-even-christian-colleges-falling-to-anti-christian-extremism Even Christian Colleges Falling to Anti-Christian Extremism]. ''The New American''. Retrieved December 12, 2018.</ref> Christians in the West, overall, have become increasingly compromised.<ref>Duke, Selwyn (May 29, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/32461-two-journalists-warn-that-weak-christianity-is-killing-the-west Two Journalists Warn That “Weak Christianity” Is Killing the West]. ''The New American''. Retrieved May 29, 2019.</ref>
*The many [[token conservative]]s who originally held conservative positions but shifted sharply to the Left
*Republican politicians frequently cave on political issues and accept the left-wing's positions, whether it be on climate change,<ref>Duke, Selwyn (March 6, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/31662-empowering-socialism-some-republicans-caving-on-climate-change Empowering Socialism: Some Republicans Caving on Climate Change]. ''The New American''. Retrieved March 6, 2019.</ref><ref>Newman, Alex (November 5, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/33942-rinos-join-democrats-in-congress-to-push-climate-hoax RINOs Join Democrats in Congress to Push Climate Hoax]. ''The New American''. Retrieved November 5, 2019.</ref> ObamaCare, immigration, or some other issue. When Alabama enacted a ban on most types of abortion, many establishment Republican politicians claimed it "went too far" despite it still allowing abortion in several cases.<ref>Multiple references:
*Bolton, Alexander (May 16, 2019). [https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/444169-senate-republicans-running-away-from-alabama-abortion-law Senate Republicans running away from Alabama abortion law]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved May 16, 2019.
*Daugherty, Owen (May 16, 2019). [https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/444150-tomi-lahren-says-alabamas-new-law-banning-abortion-is-too Tomi Lahren says Alabama's abortion law is 'too restrictive']. ''The Hill''. Retrieved May 16, 2019.
*Wise, Justin (May 16, 2019). [https://thehill.com/homenews/house/444056-house-gop-leader-says-alabama-abortion-ban-goes-further-than-i-believe House GOP leader says Alabama abortion ban goes 'further than I believe']. ''The Hill''. Retrieved May 16, 2019.
Pro-life response:
*Freiburger, Calvin (May 16, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/conservative-naysayers-to-alabama-law-double-down-on-pro-life-failure ‘Conservative’ naysayers to Alabama law double down on pro-life failure]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved May 16, 2019.</ref> Additionally, after mass shootings, Republican officials increasingly ignore the root of the problem and instead join leftists' assault on [[self-governance]] and the Second Amendment.<ref>Multiple references:
*Hawkins, Awr (August 7, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/08/07/gov-mike-dewine-pushes-universal-background-checks-after-dayton-attack/ Gov. Mike DeWine Pushes Universal Background Checks After Dayton Attack]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 7, 2019.
*Hanchett, Ian (August 5, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2019/08/05/gop-rep-kinzinger-treat-all-political-extremist-violence-as-terrorism-raise-age-to-buy-guns-implement-universal-background-checks/ GOP Rep. Kinzinger: Treat All Political Extremist Violence as Terrorism, Raise Age to Buy Guns, Implement Universal Background Checks]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 7, 2019.
*Stimson, Brie (August 7, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-congressman-representing-dayton-says-he-supports-assault-weapon-ban Republican congressman representing Dayton says he supports assault weapon ban]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved August 7, 2019.
See also:
*Venker, Suzanne (August 7, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/gun-control-wont-cure-the-underlying-moral-disease Gun control won't cure the underlying moral disease]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved August 7, 2019.</ref>
*European [[establishment]] conservatives, who eventually shifted sharply to the Left, supporting [[Europhile]], pro-mass migration, and anti-Christian policies
*The [[Conservative Political Action Conference]]'s leftward drift, marginalizing social conservatives and pro-gun activists, among other conservatives, while caving to the [[homosexual agenda]]
*[[Pat Robertson]]'s shift to the Left on several issues, including abortion, gun control, climate change, and his support for liberal Republican [[Rudy Giuliani]] in 2008
*The [[Boy Scouts of America]]'s shift to the left on social issues such as homosexuality and gender. Other Christian organizations have experienced a similar shift.<ref>Multiple references:
*Daugherty, Owen (April 23, 2019). [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/440234-michigan-christian-adoption-agency-reverses-course-will-allow-adoption Christian adoption agency in Michigan reverses LGBTQ policy]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved April 23, 2019.
*Kokx, Stephen (April 24, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/michigan-christian-adoption-agency-flips-will-place-children-in-lgbt-homes Christian adoption agency reverses policy, will place kids with ‘LGBT’ couples]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved April 24, 2019.
*Tennant, Michael (April 25, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/32123-michigan-christian-adoption-agency-agrees-to-place-kids-in-lgbt-homes Michigan Christian Adoption Agency Agrees to Place Kids in LGBT Homes]. ''The New American''. Retrieved April 25, 2019.</ref>
*The media, big business, and the military establishment once were generally conservative though liberal thinking now predominates within them
*Positions that once lay in the mainstream of society only a few years previously are being increasingly labeled as "[[far-right]]" or "ultra-right."<ref>Williams, Thomas D. (June 24, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/06/24/williams-establishment-anything-not-them-far-right/ Williams: For the Establishment, Anything Not Them Is ‘Far Right’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved June 24, 2018.</ref><ref>Duke, Selwyn (December 10, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/30874-another-far-right-party-rises-in-europe Another Supposed “Far Right” Party Rises in Europe]. ''The New American''. Retrieved December 10, 2018.</ref>
*[[Chick-fil-A]]'s surrender to far-left activists by ending its donations to conservative Christian organizations in November 2019.<ref>Multiple references:
*Freiburger, Calvin (November 18, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/chick-fil-a-moving-away-from-contributions-to-groups-tarred-as-anti-lgbt Chick-fil-A pulls support from Christian groups branded by LGBT lobby ‘anti-gay’]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
*Ng, David (November 18, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2019/11/18/chick-fil-a-will-stop-donating-to-salvation-army-christian-athletes-following-lgbt-pressure/ Chick-fil-A Will Stop Donating to Salvation Army, Christian Athletes Following LGBT Pressure]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
*Halaschak, Zachary (November 18, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/chick-fil-a-to-end-donations-to-groups-that-oppose-gay-and-transgender-rights Chick-fil-A to end donations to groups that oppose gay and transgender rights]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
*Chasmar, Jessica (November 18, 2019). [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/nov/18/chick-fil-a-ends-donations-to-salvation-army-after/ Chick-fil-A ends donations to Salvation Army after years of LGBTQ backlash]. ''The Washington Times''. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
*Miguel, Luis (November 19, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/34070-chick-fil-a-caves-drops-funding-to-christian-groups-after-lgbt-protests Chick-fil-A Caves, Drops Funding to Christian Groups After LGBT Protests]. ''The New American''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
See also:
*Mainwaring, Doug (November 18, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/chick-fil-a-betrays-christians-surrenders-to-lgbt-forces Chick-fil-A betrays Christians, surrenders to LGBT forces]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
*Van Maren, Jonathon (November 18, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/praise-for-lgbt-more-important-than-charity-to-activists-who-pressured-chick-fil-a Chick-fil-A caved in, gave the rainbow mafia the victory they wanted]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
*Dreher, Rod (November 18, 2019). [https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/why-chick-fil-a-surrender-matters/ Why Chick-fil-A’s Surrender Matters]. ''The American Conservative''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Dreher, Rod (November 18, 2019). [https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/chick-fil-a-surrenders-to-lgbt-bullies/ Chick-fil-A Surrenders To LGBT Bullies]. ''The American Conservative''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Nolte, John (November 19, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/11/19/nolte-chick-fil-a-sells-out-the-christian-faith-for-greed/ Nolte: Chick-fil-A Sells out the Christian Faith for Greed]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Parke, Caleb (November 19, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/mike-huckabee-chick-fil-a-surrended-anti-christian-hate-groups Mike Huckabee: Chick-fil-A 'surrendered to anti-Christian hate groups' and 'betrayed loyal customers']. ''Fox News''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Berry, Susan (November 19, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/11/19/mike-huckabee-chick-fil-a-betrayal-will-have-far-broader-consequences/ Mike Huckabee: Chick-fil-A ‘Betrayal’ Will Have ‘Far Broader’ Consequences Than the Company Itself]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 20, 2019.
*Mainwaring, Doug (November 19, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/amid-chick-fil-a-controversy-pro-family-and-lgbt-groups-find-rare-agreement-the-gays-have-won Amid Chick-fil-A controversy, pro-family and LGBT groups find rare agreement: ‘Gays have won’]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Mainwaring, Doug (November 19, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/chick-fil-a-hq-forbade-two-restaurants-to-host-me-says-conservative-author-todd-starnes Chick-fil-A HQ forbade two restaurants to host me, says conservative author Todd Starnes]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Mainwaring, Doug (November 22, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/chick-fil-a-was-already-moving-left-but-nobody-noticed-until-it-caved-to-lgbt-lobby Chick-fil-A was already moving left, but nobody noticed until it caved to LGBT lobby]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved November 22, 2019.
However, LGBTQ organizations were not satisfied:
*Dulis, Ezra (November 19, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/11/19/glaad-chick-fil-a-cave-not-enough-must-disavow-itself/ GLAAD: Chick-Fil-A Cave Not Enough, Must Disavow Itself]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.
*Chasmar, Jessica (November 19, 2019). [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/nov/19/lgbtq-groups-still-unhappy-with-chick-fil-a-furthe/ LGBTQ groups still unhappy with Chick-fil-A: 'Further transparency is needed']. ''The Washington Times''. Retrieved November 19, 2019.</ref>

==See also==
*[[Liberal infiltration]]
*[[Creeping socialism]]
*[[Overton Window]]

==References==
{{Reflist|colwidth=35em}}

[[Category:United States Political Terms]]
[[Category:Liberalism]]
[[Category:Conservatism]]
[[Category:Sayings and Idioms]]

Talk:Ukraine

2019-11-23T22:33:23Z

JohnZ: /* This is no small issue */

John Durham

2019-11-18T04:22:56Z

JohnZ: links / sen. struc.

'''John H. Durham''' is the [[United States Attorney]] for the District of [[Connecticut]]. He assumed the position on October 28, 2017.<ref>https://www.justice.gov/usao-ct/meet-us-attorney</ref>

From 2008 to 2017, Mr. Durham served as Counsel to the U.S. Attorney. From 1994 to 2008, he served as the Deputy U.S. Attorney, and as acting and interim U.S. Attorney in 1997 and 1998. He served as Chief of the Office’s Criminal Division from 1989 to 1994, and from 1982 to 1989, he served as an [[attorney]] and then supervisor in the New Haven Field Office of the [[Boston]] Strike Force in the [[Justice Department]]’s Organized Crime and Racketeering Section.

From 1978 to 1982, Mr. Durham served as an Assistant State’s Attorney in the New Haven State’s Attorney’s Office.

Mr. Durham graduated, with honors, from [[Colgate University]] in 1972 and the [[University of Connecticut]] School of Law in 1975.

Mr. Durham has served as an Instructor in the Criminal Justice Department at the University of New Haven, as a Moot Court Judge at the [[Yale]] School of Law, and as a lecturer for the Connecticut Bar Association.

==CIA torture==
:{{See also|John Brennan}}
From 2008 to 2012, Mr. Durham also served as the Acting U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of [[Virginia]] for the purpose of investigating matters relating to the destruction of certain videotapes by the [[CIA]] and the treatment of detainees by the CIA.

==Boston FBI office==
:{{See also|Robert Mueller|Whitey Bulger}}
From 1998 to 2008, Mr. Durham served as a Special Attorney for the District of [[Massachusetts]] and Head of the Justice Task Force, where he reviewed alleged criminal conduct by [[FBI]] personnel and other law enforcement corruption in Boston, led the prosecution of a former FBI Supervisory Special Agent and a former Massachusetts State Police Lieutenant, and handled direct appeals and related proceedings following convictions after trial.

==See also==
*[[Spygate]]
*[[Obama FISA abuse]]
*[[Trump Transition]]
*[[Deep State coup 1.0]]
*[[Deep State coup 2.0]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Durham. John}}

[[Category:United States Department of Justice]]
[[category:1990s]]
[[Category:2000s]]
[[Category:2010s]]
[[Category:2020s]]

Ye

2019-11-18T04:06:00Z

JohnZ: 1st commandment: true & verifiable.

[[File:Kanye West.jpg|right|250px]]

'''Kanye West''' is an American entertainer and [[entrepreneur]], [[hip hop]] musician and record producer. He is one of the most successful and popular of recent times. His records have won nine [[Grammy]] awards.

West began writing [[poetry]] at the age of five.<ref>{{cite news|title=Kanye and His Mom Shared Special Bond|url=http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-11-13/news/0711130488_1_chicago-state-university-degree-from-auburn-university-kanye-west|work=[[Chicago Tribune]]|date=November 13, 2007|accessdate=}}</ref> After his Oval Office meeting with President [[Trump]], West was labeled as an example of "what happens when negroes don't read"<ref>
https://www.thewrap.com/don-lemon-laughs-as-cnn-panel-mocks-kanye-west-as-token-negro-video/</ref> by a fellow black American on [[CNN]].

== Personal Life and career ==
[[File:Kanye-west-donald-trump.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Kanye West meets with [[President Donald Trump]] in the Oval Office. The white racist [[mainstream media]] was extremely hostile toward a black man getting to uppity.]]
Kanye attracted considerable media attention in September 2005, when he appeared on a television fundraiser for [[Hurricane Katrina]] victims and famously stated "[[George W. Bush|George Bush]] doesn't care about black people." He later said he made that statement because of a "welfare mentality."<ref>Nelson, Steven (October 11, 2018). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/kanye-says-welfare-mentality-led-him-to-accuse-george-w-bush-of-racism Kanye says 'welfare mentality' led him to accuse George W. Bush of racism]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 11, 2018.</ref>

He also created a stir when he posed for the cover of the February 2006 ''[[Rolling Stone]]'' magazine portraying [[Jesus Christ]], wearing a crown of thorns on his head with blood running down his face.<ref>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009059/</ref>

West's lyrics are sometimes considered controversial and offensive as they often contain explicit racial terms and profanity.<ref>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/5241</ref>
<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/2/200539.shtml</ref>

Kanye's father, Ray West, a [[sociology]] professor and former member of the [[Black Panther Party]] <ref>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/5241</ref> has stated that he does not condone the use of profanity and racial comments in Kanye's lyrics.<ref>[http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/kanyes%20dad%20lashes%20out%20at%20sons%20lyrics_27_01_2006]</ref>

His mother Donda, a former chair of the English department at Chicago State University who acted as Kanye's manager, died Nov 10, 2007 following a cosmetic surgery procedure. She was 58 years old.<ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20159597,00.html</ref> West is engaged to be married to Alexis Phifer.<ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20037945,00.html</ref>

In August 2015, Kanye West announced that he would be running for [[President of the United States of America]] in 2020. Many people have joked about his announcement, however, 2016 [[Republican]] front-runner [[Donald Trump]] responded positively to the announcement saying, "He's actually a different kind of a person than people think, he's a nice guy. I hope to run against him some day."

In 2016 West was hospitalized after an emotional break, which led him to cancel a then-ongoing tour. After the incident he began to study Christianity, finally announcing his conversion in 2019. In October 2019 he released [[Jesus Is King (album)|Jesus Is King]], an album of religious material. Despite secular media basically criticizing the album, it set ''Billboard'' records in topping 22 different charts, holding down all top 10 spots on two charts (actually holding down the #11 spot as well on the Hot Gospel Songs chart), and having all 11 songs debut on the Hot 100 chart. West required those working on the album to practice a sexually-pure lifestyle.<ref>Mendez, Marisa (October 24, 2019). [https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/10/kanye-west-premarital-sex-jesus-is-king/ Kanye West Admits He Asked People Working on His New Album to Not Have Premarital Sex]. ''XXL''. Retrieved October 24, 2019. See also:
*Van Maren, Jonathon (October 25, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/why-kanye-west-is-right-in-saying-porn-is-not-okay Why Kanye West is right in saying porn is ‘not okay’]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved October 25, 2019.</ref> West's album "Jesus Is King" performed very well, reaching first place in number of sales.<ref>Madden, Nate (November 4, 2019). [https://www.conservativereview.com/news/kanyes-jesus-king-album-debuts-no-1-billboard-charts-tying-record/ Kanye’s ‘Jesus Is King’ album debuts at no. 1 on the Billboard charts, tying record]. ''Conservative Review''. Retrieved November 5, 2019.</ref>

In November 2019 West performed a surprise concert of his album “Jesus is King” for 200 male inmates at Harris County jail in [[Houston]], [[Texas]]. West later performed for a smaller crowd of female inmates. According to [[CNN]]. the concert left many inmates in tears, and West said his purpose was “a mission, not a show.” Texas governor [[Greg Abbott]] praised West’s actions saying in a [tweet]], “What @kanyewest does to inspire the incarcerated is transformative. Saving one soul at a time.”<ref>https://dailycaller.com/2019/11/16/abbott-texas-kanye-jail/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=10953</ref>

==Oval Office meeting==
In a publicly televised [[Oval Office]] meeting with [[President Trump]], Kanye proposed moving Adidas shoe manufacturers from overseas to the South Side of [[Chicago]] to create jobs and alleviate minority [[unemployment]]. [[Racist]] liberals and [[Democrat]]s called West mentally ill, a minstrel show, and an illiterate token Negro for challenging [[globalism]]. He continued to express support for Trump.<ref>Gage, John (October 24, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kanye-west-explains-trump-support-and-says-he-is-bringing-his-shoe-factories-to-america Kanye West explains Trump support and says he is bringing his shoe factories to America]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 24, 2019.</ref>

He has pushed back against left-wing [[identity politics]].<ref>Bleau, Hannah (October 25, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2019/10/25/kanye-west-the-most-racist-thing-is-to-say-i-must-make-a-choice-based-on-my-race/ Kanye West: ‘The Most Racist Thing’ Is to Say ‘I Must Make a Choice Based on My Race’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 25, 2019.</ref>

== Criticism==
West's musical style has been the subject of criticism. Kanye West was the subject of extreme criticism when he appeared to mock [[Jesus]] on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and subsequently claim that he was bigger than Jesus. West, who has been rumored to be [[Muslim]] as his father (a former member of the Black Panther Party) was, caused considerable uproar with this comment and did not apologize. In 2005, he stated that "George [W.] Bush doesn't care about black people" allegedly given the federal response by FEMA during [[Hurricane Katrina]].

West was again the subject of controversy at the 2009 [[MTV]] Video Music Awards, where he took the microphone from pop music singer [[Taylor Swift]] while she was about to give an acceptance speech and said that she did not deserve it as much as [[Beyonce Knowles]]. This upset the then 19 year old Swift and caused backlash against West from many notable celebrities and President [[Barack Hussein Obama]]. It was also speculated that this interaction was spurred by anti-white [[racism]], as previously demonstrated in his 2005 Bush comment.

[[Liberal]]s have criticized West – like they do for all blacks who are not liberal Democrats – for deviating from left-wing orthodoxy.<ref>Byas, Steve (October 12, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/30320-kanye-west-latest-black-person-attacked-for-deviating-from-liberal-dogma Kanye West Latest Black Person Attacked for Deviating From Liberal Dogma]. ''The New American''. Retrieved October 15, 2018.</ref>

==Works==
*''The College Dropout'' (2004)
*''Late Registration'' (2005)
*''Graduation'' (2007)
*''808s and Heartbreak'' (2008)
*''My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy'' (2010)
*''Watch the Throne'' (2011)
*''Yeezus'' (2013)
*''The Life of Pablo'' (2016)
*''ye'' (2018)
*''Jesus Is King'' (2019)

==See also==
*[[WalkAway movement]]

==References==
<references/>

{{DEFAULTSORT:West Kanye}}
[[Category:Male Singers]]
[[Category:2010s]]

Ye

2019-11-18T03:41:30Z

JohnZ: In reference to a Chris Rock gag, apparently. The more you know...

[[File:Kanye West.jpg|right|250px]]

'''Kanye West''' is an American entertainer and [[entrepreneur]], [[hip hop]] musician and record producer. He is one of the most successful and popular of recent times. His records have won nine [[Grammy]] awards.

West, who began writing [[poetry]] at the age of five, has been labeled [[illiterate]] by [[racist]] [[liberal]]s and [[Democrat]]s.<ref>https://youtu.be/Etvn37wekw8</ref> According to a fellow black American on [[CNN]], West is an example of "what happens when negroes don't read."<ref>
https://www.thewrap.com/don-lemon-laughs-as-cnn-panel-mocks-kanye-west-as-token-negro-video/</ref>

== Personal Life and career ==
[[File:Kanye-west-donald-trump.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Kanye West meets with [[President Donald Trump]] in the Oval Office. The white racist [[mainstream media]] was extremely hostile toward a black man getting to uppity.]]
Kanye attracted considerable media attention in September 2005, when he appeared on a television fundraiser for [[Hurricane Katrina]] victims and famously stated "[[George W. Bush|George Bush]] doesn't care about black people." He later said he made that statement because of a "welfare mentality."<ref>Nelson, Steven (October 11, 2018). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/kanye-says-welfare-mentality-led-him-to-accuse-george-w-bush-of-racism Kanye says 'welfare mentality' led him to accuse George W. Bush of racism]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 11, 2018.</ref>

He also created a stir when he posed for the cover of the February 2006 ''[[Rolling Stone]]'' magazine portraying [[Jesus Christ]], wearing a crown of thorns on his head with blood running down his face.<ref>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009059/</ref>

West's lyrics are sometimes considered controversial and offensive as they often contain explicit racial terms and profanity.<ref>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/5241</ref>
<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/2/200539.shtml</ref>

Kanye's father, Ray West, a [[sociology]] professor and former member of the [[Black Panther Party]] <ref>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/5241</ref> has stated that he does not condone the use of profanity and racial comments in Kanye's lyrics.<ref>[http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/kanyes%20dad%20lashes%20out%20at%20sons%20lyrics_27_01_2006]</ref>

His mother Donda, a former chair of the English department at Chicago State University who acted as Kanye's manager, died Nov 10, 2007 following a cosmetic surgery procedure. She was 58 years old.<ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20159597,00.html</ref> West is engaged to be married to Alexis Phifer.<ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20037945,00.html</ref>

In August 2015, Kanye West announced that he would be running for [[President of the United States of America]] in 2020. Many people have joked about his announcement, however, 2016 [[Republican]] front-runner [[Donald Trump]] responded positively to the announcement saying, "He's actually a different kind of a person than people think, he's a nice guy. I hope to run against him some day."

In 2016 West was hospitalized after an emotional break, which led him to cancel a then-ongoing tour. After the incident he began to study Christianity, finally announcing his conversion in 2019. In October 2019 he released [[Jesus Is King (album)|Jesus Is King]], an album of religious material. Despite secular media basically criticizing the album, it set ''Billboard'' records in topping 22 different charts, holding down all top 10 spots on two charts (actually holding down the #11 spot as well on the Hot Gospel Songs chart), and having all 11 songs debut on the Hot 100 chart. West required those working on the album to practice a sexually-pure lifestyle.<ref>Mendez, Marisa (October 24, 2019). [https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/10/kanye-west-premarital-sex-jesus-is-king/ Kanye West Admits He Asked People Working on His New Album to Not Have Premarital Sex]. ''XXL''. Retrieved October 24, 2019. See also:
*Van Maren, Jonathon (October 25, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/why-kanye-west-is-right-in-saying-porn-is-not-okay Why Kanye West is right in saying porn is ‘not okay’]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved October 25, 2019.</ref> West's album "Jesus Is King" performed very well, reaching first place in number of sales.<ref>Madden, Nate (November 4, 2019). [https://www.conservativereview.com/news/kanyes-jesus-king-album-debuts-no-1-billboard-charts-tying-record/ Kanye’s ‘Jesus Is King’ album debuts at no. 1 on the Billboard charts, tying record]. ''Conservative Review''. Retrieved November 5, 2019.</ref>

In November 2019 West performed a surprise concert of his album “Jesus is King” for 200 male inmates at Harris County jail in [[Houston]], [[Texas]]. West later performed for a smaller crowd of female inmates. According to [[CNN]]. the concert left many inmates in tears, and West said his purpose was “a mission, not a show.” Texas governor [[Greg Abbott]] praised West’s actions saying in a [tweet]], “What @kanyewest does to inspire the incarcerated is transformative. Saving one soul at a time.”<ref>https://dailycaller.com/2019/11/16/abbott-texas-kanye-jail/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=10953</ref>

==Oval Office meeting==
In a publicly televised [[Oval Office]] meeting with [[President Trump]], Kanye proposed moving Adidas shoe manufacturers from overseas to the South Side of [[Chicago]] to create jobs and alleviate minority [[unemployment]]. [[Racist]] liberals and [[Democrat]]s called West mentally ill, a minstrel show, and an illiterate token Negro for challenging [[globalism]]. He continued to express support for Trump.<ref>Gage, John (October 24, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kanye-west-explains-trump-support-and-says-he-is-bringing-his-shoe-factories-to-america Kanye West explains Trump support and says he is bringing his shoe factories to America]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 24, 2019.</ref>

He has pushed back against left-wing [[identity politics]].<ref>Bleau, Hannah (October 25, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2019/10/25/kanye-west-the-most-racist-thing-is-to-say-i-must-make-a-choice-based-on-my-race/ Kanye West: ‘The Most Racist Thing’ Is to Say ‘I Must Make a Choice Based on My Race’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 25, 2019.</ref>

== Criticism==
West's musical style has been the subject of criticism. Kanye West was the subject of extreme criticism when he appeared to mock [[Jesus]] on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and subsequently claim that he was bigger than Jesus. West, who has been rumored to be [[Muslim]] as his father (a former member of the Black Panther Party) was, caused considerable uproar with this comment and did not apologize. In 2005, he stated that "George [W.] Bush doesn't care about black people" allegedly given the federal response by FEMA during [[Hurricane Katrina]].

West was again the subject of controversy at the 2009 [[MTV]] Video Music Awards, where he took the microphone from pop music singer [[Taylor Swift]] while she was about to give an acceptance speech and said that she did not deserve it as much as [[Beyonce Knowles]]. This upset the then 19 year old Swift and caused backlash against West from many notable celebrities and President [[Barack Hussein Obama]]. It was also speculated that this interaction was spurred by anti-white [[racism]], as previously demonstrated in his 2005 Bush comment.

[[Liberal]]s have criticized West – like they do for all blacks who are not liberal Democrats – for deviating from left-wing orthodoxy.<ref>Byas, Steve (October 12, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/30320-kanye-west-latest-black-person-attacked-for-deviating-from-liberal-dogma Kanye West Latest Black Person Attacked for Deviating From Liberal Dogma]. ''The New American''. Retrieved October 15, 2018.</ref>

==Works==
*''The College Dropout'' (2004)
*''Late Registration'' (2005)
*''Graduation'' (2007)
*''808s and Heartbreak'' (2008)
*''My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy'' (2010)
*''Watch the Throne'' (2011)
*''Yeezus'' (2013)
*''The Life of Pablo'' (2016)
*''ye'' (2018)
*''Jesus Is King'' (2019)

==See also==
*[[WalkAway movement]]

==References==
<references/>

{{DEFAULTSORT:West Kanye}}
[[Category:Male Singers]]
[[Category:2010s]]

Ye

2019-11-18T03:10:12Z

JohnZ: Probably best not to reference the Don Lemon panel for your "Blexit" shilling purposes, but if you insist...

[[File:Kanye West.jpg|right|250px]]

'''Kanye West''' is an American entertainer and [[entrepreneur]], [[hip hop]] musician and record producer. He is one of the most successful and popular of recent times. His records have won nine [[Grammy]] awards.

West, who began writing [[poetry]] at the age of five, has been labeled as an "attention w****" and "what happens when negroes don't read" by fellow black Americans.<ref>https://www.thewrap.com/don-lemon-laughs-as-cnn-panel-mocks-kanye-west-as-token-negro-video/</ref><ref>https://youtu.be/Etvn37wekw8</ref>

== Personal Life and career ==
[[File:Kanye-west-donald-trump.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Kanye West meets with [[President Donald Trump]] in the Oval Office. The white racist [[mainstream media]] was extremely hostile toward a black man getting to uppity.]]
Kanye attracted considerable media attention in September 2005, when he appeared on a television fundraiser for [[Hurricane Katrina]] victims and famously stated "[[George W. Bush|George Bush]] doesn't care about black people." He later said he made that statement because of a "welfare mentality."<ref>Nelson, Steven (October 11, 2018). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/kanye-says-welfare-mentality-led-him-to-accuse-george-w-bush-of-racism Kanye says 'welfare mentality' led him to accuse George W. Bush of racism]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 11, 2018.</ref>

He also created a stir when he posed for the cover of the February 2006 ''[[Rolling Stone]]'' magazine portraying [[Jesus Christ]], wearing a crown of thorns on his head with blood running down his face.<ref>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009059/</ref>

West's lyrics are sometimes considered controversial and offensive as they often contain explicit racial terms and profanity.<ref>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/5241</ref>
<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/2/200539.shtml</ref>

Kanye's father, Ray West, a [[sociology]] professor and former member of the [[Black Panther Party]] <ref>http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/5241</ref> has stated that he does not condone the use of profanity and racial comments in Kanye's lyrics.<ref>[http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/kanyes%20dad%20lashes%20out%20at%20sons%20lyrics_27_01_2006]</ref>

His mother Donda, a former chair of the English department at Chicago State University who acted as Kanye's manager, died Nov 10, 2007 following a cosmetic surgery procedure. She was 58 years old.<ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20159597,00.html</ref> West is engaged to be married to Alexis Phifer.<ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20037945,00.html</ref>

In August 2015, Kanye West announced that he would be running for [[President of the United States of America]] in 2020. Many people have joked about his announcement, however, 2016 [[Republican]] front-runner [[Donald Trump]] responded positively to the announcement saying, "He's actually a different kind of a person than people think, he's a nice guy. I hope to run against him some day."

In 2016 West was hospitalized after an emotional break, which led him to cancel a then-ongoing tour. After the incident he began to study Christianity, finally announcing his conversion in 2019. In October 2019 he released [[Jesus Is King (album)|Jesus Is King]], an album of religious material. Despite secular media basically criticizing the album, it set ''Billboard'' records in topping 22 different charts, holding down all top 10 spots on two charts (actually holding down the #11 spot as well on the Hot Gospel Songs chart), and having all 11 songs debut on the Hot 100 chart. West required those working on the album to practice a sexually-pure lifestyle.<ref>Mendez, Marisa (October 24, 2019). [https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/10/kanye-west-premarital-sex-jesus-is-king/ Kanye West Admits He Asked People Working on His New Album to Not Have Premarital Sex]. ''XXL''. Retrieved October 24, 2019. See also:
*Van Maren, Jonathon (October 25, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/why-kanye-west-is-right-in-saying-porn-is-not-okay Why Kanye West is right in saying porn is ‘not okay’]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved October 25, 2019.</ref> West's album "Jesus Is King" performed very well, reaching first place in number of sales.<ref>Madden, Nate (November 4, 2019). [https://www.conservativereview.com/news/kanyes-jesus-king-album-debuts-no-1-billboard-charts-tying-record/ Kanye’s ‘Jesus Is King’ album debuts at no. 1 on the Billboard charts, tying record]. ''Conservative Review''. Retrieved November 5, 2019.</ref>

In November 2019 West performed a surprise concert of his album “Jesus is King” for 200 male inmates at Harris County jail in [[Houston]], [[Texas]]. West later performed for a smaller crowd of female inmates. According to [[CNN]]. the concert left many inmates in tears, and West said his purpose was “a mission, not a show.” Texas governor [[Greg Abbott]] praised West’s actions saying in a [tweet]], “What @kanyewest does to inspire the incarcerated is transformative. Saving one soul at a time.”<ref>https://dailycaller.com/2019/11/16/abbott-texas-kanye-jail/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=10953</ref>

==Oval Office meeting==
In a publicly televised [[Oval Office]] meeting with [[President Trump]], Kanye proposed moving Adidas shoe manufacturers from overseas to the South Side of [[Chicago]] to create jobs and alleviate minority [[unemployment]]. [[Racist]] liberals and [[Democrat]]s called West mentally ill, a minstrel show, and an illiterate token Negro for challenging [[globalism]]. He continued to express support for Trump.<ref>Gage, John (October 24, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kanye-west-explains-trump-support-and-says-he-is-bringing-his-shoe-factories-to-america Kanye West explains Trump support and says he is bringing his shoe factories to America]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 24, 2019.</ref>

He has pushed back against left-wing [[identity politics]].<ref>Bleau, Hannah (October 25, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2019/10/25/kanye-west-the-most-racist-thing-is-to-say-i-must-make-a-choice-based-on-my-race/ Kanye West: ‘The Most Racist Thing’ Is to Say ‘I Must Make a Choice Based on My Race’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 25, 2019.</ref>

== Criticism==
West's musical style has been the subject of criticism. Kanye West was the subject of extreme criticism when he appeared to mock [[Jesus]] on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and subsequently claim that he was bigger than Jesus. West, who has been rumored to be [[Muslim]] as his father (a former member of the Black Panther Party) was, caused considerable uproar with this comment and did not apologize. In 2005, he stated that "George [W.] Bush doesn't care about black people" allegedly given the federal response by FEMA during [[Hurricane Katrina]].

West was again the subject of controversy at the 2009 [[MTV]] Video Music Awards, where he took the microphone from pop music singer [[Taylor Swift]] while she was about to give an acceptance speech and said that she did not deserve it as much as [[Beyonce Knowles]]. This upset the then 19 year old Swift and caused backlash against West from many notable celebrities and President [[Barack Hussein Obama]]. It was also speculated that this interaction was spurred by anti-white [[racism]], as previously demonstrated in his 2005 Bush comment.

[[Liberal]]s have criticized West – like they do for all blacks who are not liberal Democrats – for deviating from left-wing orthodoxy.<ref>Byas, Steve (October 12, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/30320-kanye-west-latest-black-person-attacked-for-deviating-from-liberal-dogma Kanye West Latest Black Person Attacked for Deviating From Liberal Dogma]. ''The New American''. Retrieved October 15, 2018.</ref>

==Works==
*''The College Dropout'' (2004)
*''Late Registration'' (2005)
*''Graduation'' (2007)
*''808s and Heartbreak'' (2008)
*''My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy'' (2010)
*''Watch the Throne'' (2011)
*''Yeezus'' (2013)
*''The Life of Pablo'' (2016)
*''ye'' (2018)
*''Jesus Is King'' (2019)

==See also==
*[[WalkAway movement]]

==References==
<references/>

{{DEFAULTSORT:West Kanye}}
[[Category:Male Singers]]
[[Category:2010s]]

Marie Yovanovitch

2019-11-15T23:58:45Z

JohnZ:

[[File:Burisma-group-ukraine-ambassador.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Burisma oil and gas officials posted to Instagram a photo from a meeting at Ambassador Yovanovitch's residence in October 2018.]]
'''Marie Yovanovitch''' was the [[Obama]] appointee as Ambassador to the [[Ukraine]]. She had previously served as Ambassador to [[Kyrgyzstan]] and Ambassador to [[Armenia]] for President [[George W. Bush]].<ref>https://history.state.gov/departmenthistory/people/yovanovitch-marie-l</ref> She is a registered [[Democrat]],<ref>http://connvoters.com/by_number/0010/56231_marie_l_yovanovitch.html</ref> and was recalled from Ukraine in May 2019. The circumstances of her recall are currently a subject of the House's impeachment hearings on President [[Trump]].

Ukrainian prosecutor Yuriy Lutsenko said Yovanovitch gave him a "Do Not Prosecute" list with Hunter Biden's name on it.<ref>https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/434875-top-ukrainian-justice-official-says-us-ambassador-gave-him-a-do-not-prosecute</ref> On March 21, 2019, the [[State Department]] rejected these allegations, stating: "The allegations by the Ukrainian prosecutor-general are not true and are intended to tarnish the reputation of Ambassador Yovanovitch."<ref>https://www.rferl.org/a/us-rejects-top-ukrainian-prosecutors-dont-prosecute-accusation/29834853.html</ref> In an interview with the ''New York Times'', Lutsenko later denied ever making such allegations, blaming a mistranslation of his comments re. Yovanovitch telling him not to prosecute ''anti''-corruption activists. Lutsenko further denied having any evidence of wrongdoing by Hunter Biden.<ref>https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/05/world/europe/ukraine-prosecutor-trump.html</ref>

Yovanovich never raised the issue of Ukrainian government officials meddling in the U.S. [[2016 presidential election]] with the [[Poroshenko]] regime. Poroshenko was voted out of office in April 2019 carrying only 24% of the vote, with anti-corruption reformer [[Volodymyr Zelensky]] receiving 73%.

A Ukrainian court determined in December 2018 that Ukrainian government officials had in fact meddled in the U.S. presidential election during Yovanovitch's tenure.<ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html ''Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused 'Meddling' in U.S. Election]'', ''[[The New York Times]]'', December 12. 2018. National Anti-Corruption Bureau Director [[Artem Sytnyk]] and legislator [[Serhiy Leshchenko]] broke the law by revealing Manafort's name. The court said that the disclosure
{{quotebox|“led to interference in the electoral processes of the United States in 2016 and harmed the interests of Ukraine as a state.” [https://www.theepochtimes.com/ties-to-ukrainian-national-a-unifying-theme-in-early-attacks-on-trump_2872609.html]}}</ref>

==Political spying==
On October 14, 2019 is was reported ''Judicial Watch Reveals Surveillance Targets Requested by U.S. Ambassador Yovanovitch and State Department – But Bigger Question is Missing.''<ref>https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/14/judicial-watch-reveals-surveillance-targets-requested-by-u-s-ambassador-yovanovitch-and-state-department-but-bigger-question-is-missing/#more-173680</ref>
*former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, initiated a request for State Dept. officials to conduct surveillance on: [[Jack Posobiec]], [[Donald Trump Jr.]], [[Laura Ingraham]], [[Sean Hannity]], [[Michael McFaul]] (Obama’s ambassador to Russia), [[Dan Bongino]], [[Ryan Saavedra]], [[Rudy Giuliani]], [[Sebastian Gorka]], [[John Solomon]], [[Lou Dobbs]], [[Pamella Geller]] and [[Sara Carter]].
*Yovanovitch reportedly ordered monitoring keyed to the following search terms: Biden, Giuliani, [[Soros]] and Yovanovitch. [[Judicial Watch]] (JW) has filed a [[Freedom of Information Act]] (FOIA) request with the [[State Department]] and will continue gathering facts from government sources.
*Prior to being recalled as ambassador to Ukraine in the spring Yovanovitch reportedly created a list of individuals who were to be monitored via [[social media]] and other means. Ukraine embassy staff made the request to the [[Washington D.C.]] headquarters office of the department’s Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs. Yovanovch’s staff was informed that the request was [[illegal]] and the monitoring either ceased or was concealed via the State Department Global Engagement Center, which has looser restrictions on collecting information. JW reports:
{{quotebox|“This is not an obscure rule, everyone in public diplomacy or public affairs knows they can’t make lists and monitor U.S. citizens unless there is a major national security reason,” according to a senior State Department official. If the illicit operation occurred, it seems to indicate a clear political bias against the president and his supporters. Yovanovitch, a career diplomat who has also led American embassies in [[Kyrgyzstan]] and [[Armenia]], was appointed ambassador to Ukraine by Obama in 2016. She was recalled by the State Department in May [2019] and remains a State Department employee in Washington D.C.}}

Under oath in public testimony during [[Adam Schiff]]'s [[impeachment inquiry]] Yovanovitch gave false and misleading information claiming no knowledge of [[Hunter Biden]] and [[Burisma]] oil and gas before [[President Obama]] appointed her as ambassador to Ukraine, when in fact she admitted the Obama State Department had coached her on answering questions about Hunter Biden and Burisma in preparation for her Senate confirmation hearings.

==See also==
*[[Muellergate timeline 2019]]
*[[Deep State coup 2.0]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Yovanovich, MArie}}

[[Category:Obama Administration]][[Category:Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax]][[Category:United States Political Scandals]][[Category:2010s]]

Marie Yovanovitch

2019-11-15T23:28:57Z

JohnZ:

[[File:Burisma-group-ukraine-ambassador.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Burisma oil and gas officials posted to Instagram a photo from a meeting at Ambassador Yovanovitch's residence in October 2018.]]
'''Marie Yovanovitch''' was the [[Obama]] appointee as Ambassador to the [[Ukraine]]. Yovanovitch is a [[Democrat]] [[partisan]] operative who was removed as Ukrainian ambassador weeks after [[Hunter Biden]] resigned from [[Burisma]], Ukraine's largest oil and gas producer.

Ukrainian prosecutor Yuriy Lutsenko said Yovanovitch gave him a "Do Not Prosecute" list with Hunter Biden's name on it.<ref>https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/434875-top-ukrainian-justice-official-says-us-ambassador-gave-him-a-do-not-prosecute</ref> On March 21, 2019, the [[State Department]] rejected these allegations, stating: "The allegations by the Ukrainian prosecutor-general are not true and are intended to tarnish the reputation of Ambassador Yovanovitch."<ref>https://www.rferl.org/a/us-rejects-top-ukrainian-prosecutors-dont-prosecute-accusation/29834853.html</ref> In an interview with the ''New York Times'', Lutsenko later denied ever making such allegations, blaming a mistranslation of his comments re. Yovanovitch telling him not to prosecute ''anti''-corruption activists. Lutsenko further denied having any evidence of wrongdoing by Hunter Biden.<ref>https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/05/world/europe/ukraine-prosecutor-trump.html</ref>

Yovanovich never raised the issue of Ukrainian government officials meddling in the U.S. [[2016 presidential election]] with the [[Poroshenko]] regime. Poroshenko was voted out of office in April 2019 carrying only 24% of the vote, with anti-corruption reformer [[Volodymyr Zelensky]] receiving 73%.

A Ukrainian court determined in December 2018 that Ukrainian government officials had in fact meddled in the U.S. presidential election during Yovanovitch's tenure.<ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html ''Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused 'Meddling' in U.S. Election]'', ''[[The New York Times]]'', December 12. 2018. National Anti-Corruption Bureau Director [[Artem Sytnyk]] and legislator [[Serhiy Leshchenko]] broke the law by revealing Manafort's name. The court said that the disclosure
{{quotebox|“led to interference in the electoral processes of the United States in 2016 and harmed the interests of Ukraine as a state.” [https://www.theepochtimes.com/ties-to-ukrainian-national-a-unifying-theme-in-early-attacks-on-trump_2872609.html]}}</ref>

She had previously served as Ambassador to [[Kyrgyzstan]] and Ambassador to [[Armenia]] for President [[George W. Bush]].<ref>https://history.state.gov/departmenthistory/people/yovanovitch-marie-l</ref>

==Political spying==
On October 14, 2019 is was reported ''Judicial Watch Reveals Surveillance Targets Requested by U.S. Ambassador Yovanovitch and State Department – But Bigger Question is Missing.''<ref>https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/14/judicial-watch-reveals-surveillance-targets-requested-by-u-s-ambassador-yovanovitch-and-state-department-but-bigger-question-is-missing/#more-173680</ref>
*former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, initiated a request for State Dept. officials to conduct surveillance on: [[Jack Posobiec]], [[Donald Trump Jr.]], [[Laura Ingraham]], [[Sean Hannity]], [[Michael McFaul]] (Obama’s ambassador to Russia), [[Dan Bongino]], [[Ryan Saavedra]], [[Rudy Giuliani]], [[Sebastian Gorka]], [[John Solomon]], [[Lou Dobbs]], [[Pamella Geller]] and [[Sara Carter]].
*Yovanovitch reportedly ordered monitoring keyed to the following search terms: Biden, Giuliani, [[Soros]] and Yovanovitch. [[Judicial Watch]] (JW) has filed a [[Freedom of Information Act]] (FOIA) request with the [[State Department]] and will continue gathering facts from government sources.
*Prior to being recalled as ambassador to Ukraine in the spring Yovanovitch reportedly created a list of individuals who were to be monitored via [[social media]] and other means. Ukraine embassy staff made the request to the [[Washington D.C.]] headquarters office of the department’s Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs. Yovanovch’s staff was informed that the request was [[illegal]] and the monitoring either ceased or was concealed via the State Department Global Engagement Center, which has looser restrictions on collecting information. JW reports:
{{quotebox|“This is not an obscure rule, everyone in public diplomacy or public affairs knows they can’t make lists and monitor U.S. citizens unless there is a major national security reason,” according to a senior State Department official. If the illicit operation occurred, it seems to indicate a clear political bias against the president and his supporters. Yovanovitch, a career diplomat who has also led American embassies in [[Kyrgyzstan]] and [[Armenia]], was appointed ambassador to Ukraine by Obama in 2016. She was recalled by the State Department in May [2019] and remains a State Department employee in Washington D.C.}}

Under oath in public testimony during [[Adam Schiff]]'s [[impeachment inquiry]] Yovanovitch gave false and misleading information claiming no knowledge of [[Hunter Biden]] and [[Burisma]] oil and gas before [[President Obama]] appointed her as ambassador to Ukraine, when in fact she admitted the Obama State Department had coached her on answering questions about Hunter Biden and Burisma in preparation for her Senate confirmation hearings.

==See also==
*[[Muellergate timeline 2019]]
*[[Deep State coup 2.0]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Yovanovich, MArie}}

[[Category:Obama Administration]][[Category:Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax]][[Category:United States Political Scandals]][[Category:2010s]]

Marie Yovanovitch

2019-11-15T22:25:53Z

JohnZ: Served as Ambassador for Bush administration

'''Marie Yovanovitch''' was the [[Obama]] appointee as Ambassador to the [[Ukraine]]. She had previously served as Ambassador to [[Kyrgyzstan]] and Ambassador to [[Armenia]] for President [[George W. Bush]].<ref>https://history.state.gov/departmenthistory/people/yovanovitch-marie-l</ref>

Yovanovitch is a [[Democrat]] [[partisan]] operative who was removed as Ukrainian ambassador weeks after [[Hunter Biden]] resigned from [[Burisma]], Ukraine's largest oil and gas producer. Ukrainian prosecutor Yuriy Lutsenko said Yovanovitch gave him a "Do Not Prosecute" list with Hunter Biden's name on it.<ref>https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/434875-top-ukrainian-justice-official-says-us-ambassador-gave-him-a-do-not-prosecute</ref>

On October 14, 2019 is was reported ''Judicial Watch Reveals Surveillance Targets Requested by U.S. Ambassador Yovanovitch and State Department – But Bigger Question is Missing.''<ref>https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/14/judicial-watch-reveals-surveillance-targets-requested-by-u-s-ambassador-yovanovitch-and-state-department-but-bigger-question-is-missing/#more-173680</ref>
*former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, initiated a request for State Dept. officials to conduct surveillance on: [[Jack Posobiec]], [[Donald Trump Jr.]], [[Laura Ingraham]], [[Sean Hannity]], [[Michael McFaul]] (Obama’s ambassador to Russia), [[Dan Bongino]], [[Ryan Saavedra]], [[Rudy Giuliani]], [[Sebastian Gorka]], [[John Solomon]], [[Lou Dobbs]], [[Pamella Geller]] and [[Sara Carter]].
*Yovanovitch reportedly ordered monitoring keyed to the following search terms: Biden, Giuliani, [[Soros]] and Yovanovitch. [[Judicial Watch]] (JW) has filed a [[Freedom of Information Act]] (FOIA) request with the [[State Department]] and will continue gathering facts from government sources.
*Prior to being recalled as ambassador to Ukraine in the spring Yovanovitch reportedly created a list of individuals who were to be monitored via [[social media]] and other means. Ukraine embassy staff made the request to the [[Washington D.C.]] headquarters office of the department’s Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs. Yovanovch’s staff was informed that the request was [[illegal]] and the monitoring either ceased or was concealed via the State Department Global Engagement Center, which has looser restrictions on collecting information. JW reports:
{{quotebox|“This is not an obscure rule, everyone in public diplomacy or public affairs knows they can’t make lists and monitor U.S. citizens unless there is a major national security reason,” according to a senior State Department official. If the illicit operation occurred, it seems to indicate a clear political bias against the president and his supporters. Yovanovitch, a career diplomat who has also led American embassies in [[Kyrgyzstan]] and [[Armenia]], was appointed ambassador to Ukraine by Obama in 2016. She was recalled by the State Department in May [2019] and remains a State Department employee in Washington D.C.}}

Under oath in public testimony during [[Adam Schiff]]'s [[impeachment inquiry]] Yovanovitch gave false and misleading information claiming no knowledge of [[Hunter Biden]] and [[Burisma]] oil and gas before [[President Obama]] appointed her as ambassador to Ukraine, when in fact she admitted the Obama State Department had coached her on answering questions about Hunter Biden and Burisma in preparation for her Senate confirmation hearings.

==See also==
*[[Muellergate timeline 2019]]
*[[Deep State coup 2.0]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Yovanovich, MArie}}

[[Category:Obama Administration]][[Category:Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax]][[Category:United States Political Scandals]][[Category:2010s]]

Roger Stone

2019-11-15T21:59:42Z

JohnZ: Indictment & verdict

{{Infobox person
| name = Roger Stone Jr.
|party = [[Republican Party]] (1961–2012, 2015–present) [[Libertarian Party]] (2012–2015)
}}
'''Roger Stone''' is a [[libertarian]] campaign consultant and lobbyist. Nearly all of his political work is on behalf of [[Republicans]]. In the [[2008 presidential election]], Stone launched a 527 political organization called Citizens United Not Timid to educate the public about "what [[Hillary Clinton]] really is". He has worked with [[Barry Goldwater]], [[Richard Nixon]], [[Ronald Reagan]], and the current President of the United States, [[Donald John Trump]]. He is the subject of a documentary available on [[Netflix]].

On Jan. 24, 2019, Stone was indicted by a federal [[grand jury]] on charges stemming from former Special Counsel [[Robert Mueller]]’s Russia investigation.<ref>https://www.justice.gov/file/1124706/download</ref> The indictment featured one count of obstruction of an official proceeding, five counts of false statements, and one count of witness tampering. On Nov. 15, 2019, Stone was found guilty on all 7 counts.<ref>https://www.foxnews.com/politics/roger-stone-found-guilty-in-trial-stemming-from-mueller-probe</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[https://whoframedrogerstone.com Roger Stone Legal Defense Fund]. Help deliver Roger from [[Leftist]] oppression.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Stone, Roger}}

[[Category:Political Lobbyists]]
[[Category:Political Advisors]]
[[Category:Anti-establishment]]

Talk:Blexit

2019-11-11T04:03:21Z

JohnZ:

John Z, that doesn't really belong on a page about the Blexit movement. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:13, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:The movement's starting point is entirely relevant. In the exceptionally unlikely event that she's sincere, Ms. Owens has an awful lot of work to do...

:Here's a [https://web.archive.org/web/20170823111144/http://www.degree180.com/jokes-on-us-the-republican-tea-party-is-being-led-by-the-mad-hatter/ charming article] she penned back in 2015. Pro-gay, pro-choice, very anti Tea Party.

:'''N.B.''' Reader discretion advised. Language in linked article not family friendly. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 15:37, 10 November 2019 (EST)
::Hey, it's all about exiting the [[Democrat plantation]] and being allowed to think for yourself. It's perfectly understandable why Democrats, communists, and liberals have a problem with that. But that is not the subject of this page. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 20:00, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:::Hahaha. Black America thanks you and the GOP for your concern, no doubt. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 20:24, 10 November 2019 (EST)
::::What is an [[entrepreneur]]? It's a person who see's a problem and need in a community and takes steps to solve it. If Candace Owens sees the problems and needs of the black community and takes steps to solve it by selling Blexit T-shirts, that should be encouraged and promoted. If she mistakenly used Kanye West's brand name to promote her own, that's what civil courts of law exist for if the dispute can not be resolved by negotiation.
::::What do you propose for young black people? More dole? More food stamps? More non-profit organizations with limited resources? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:31, 10 November 2019 (EST)
:::::You spelt grifter wrong. Wingnut welfare ftw - Owens is getting her reparations in. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 23:03, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Talk:Candace Owens

2019-11-11T03:54:08Z

JohnZ:

Hey, this article isn't suppose to be a hit piece. If you're going to put in trash, put something in to balance it out for NPOV. Otherwise all your hardwork in smearing somebody runs the risk of being removed.

I'll simply remove it as racist content and you risk being blocked for racist attacks. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 21:37, 10 November 2019 (EST)

:These people are professional entrepreneurs, so I hope these racist attacks will stop. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:16, 10 November 2019 (EST)

::She's a grifter, plain and simple. You're doing infinitely more long-term damage to your cause by trying to portray her as a conservative than I could ever do by showing how you've all been duped. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 22:24, 10 November 2019 (EST)

:::Hey, there is no cookie cutter brand of conservatism. Young black people conservatives are free to make of the conservative movement whatever they wish. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:38, 10 November 2019 (EST)

::::Man, this is brilliant. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Candace_Owens&curid=154121&diff=1593743&oldid=1593742 ''West did not distance himself from the movement''] because [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Candace_Owens&curid=154121&diff=1593744&oldid=1593743 I'm going to remove the bit where he specifically distances himself from the movement].

::::You are completely without shame, Rob Smith. [[Conservative values]], indeed. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 22:40, 10 November 2019 (EST)

:::::He distanced his name brand. If you wanna piggyback on someone else's trade name, you have to have permission and pay royalties. What do you think the intellectual property theft dispute with China is all about? There, suddenly, commies and Trump haters suddenly git their underwear in a knot.
:::::All start up businesses, whether it be China or Candace Owens, make mistakes in the start up phase. It's to be expected. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:47, 10 November 2019 (EST)

::::::Back in the real world: [https://mobile.twitter.com/kanyewest/status/1057382888520499201 ''"I never wanted any association with Blexit. I have nothing to do with it."''] Never change, man. You're way too entertaining as you are. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 22:54, 10 November 2019 (EST)

Talk:Candace Owens

2019-11-11T03:42:39Z

JohnZ:

Talk:Candace Owens

2019-11-11T03:40:07Z

JohnZ:

Talk:Candace Owens

2019-11-11T03:24:57Z

JohnZ:

Candace Owens

2019-11-11T02:09:43Z

JohnZ: Previous political & ethical views

'''Candace Owens''' (born 1989) is a [[conservative]] producer, political commentator, intellectual,<ref>https://www.prageru.com/presenter/candace-owens/</ref> and founder of the [[Blexit]] movement. She is especially well known for leaving the anti-Trump Democrat plantation to join the conservative movement against [[Antifa]], [[Black Lives Matter]], and the Left. On [[PragerU]], she runs The Candace Owens Show, a series of intellectual debates between other intellectuals and herself. Subsequently, the [[lamestream media]] quickly labeled her as a "white supremacist" in many failed smear attacks due to her open opposition to [[liberal bigotry]].<ref>https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/08/07/perverted-leftists-call-candace-owens-a-white-supremacist/</ref>

==Repudiation by Kanye West==
In October 2018, Owens claimed [[Kanye West]] had helped design a clothing range to promote Blexit: “I am blessed to say that this logo, these colors, were created by my dear friend and fellow superhero Kanye West.”<ref>https://pagesix.com/2018/10/27/kanye-west-designed-t-shirts-urging-black-people-to-bail-on-democrats/</ref><ref>https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/27/watch-candace-owens-announces-blexit-the-black-exit-from-the-democrat-party/</ref> West promptly denied any direct involvement and distanced himself from the movement: "I introduced Candace to the person who made the logo and they didn’t want their name on it so she used mine. I never wanted any association with Blexit. I have nothing to do with it."
<ref>https://mobile.twitter.com/kanyewest/status/1057382888520499201</ref> In a blog post, Owens acknowledged West was "completely right to feel used" and apologized for "any undue stress or pain the effort to correct [this] rumor has caused him, his business relationships, or his family. He simply never designed them."<ref>https://candaceowens.com/blog/808s-and-heartbreak/</ref>

==Previous political & ethical views==
In 2015, Owens wrote a number of blog posts for ''Degree180''. Notably, she described the [[Tea Party]] movement as "bat-s***-crazy" and conservative opposition to [[homosexuality]] as "the most ridiculously pathetic and stupid thing that our [[government]] has inflicted upon a group of people for being themselves, since [[slavery]]".<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20170823111144/http://www.degree180.com/jokes-on-us-the-republican-tea-party-is-being-led-by-the-mad-hatter/</ref>

In another post, Owens conducted an imaginary interview with [[God]], who offered this remarkable analysis of the November 2015 [[Paris]] terror attacks: "[[ISIS]] hates [[France]] in the same way that a lonely high school student hates the captain of the football team. They are entangled in a way that one seeks validation from the other, because the other has shunned them in some regard."<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20170823112131/http://degree180.com/breaking-degree180s-exclusive-interview-with-god-on-muslims-isis-france-and-wwiii/</ref>

She has described [[adultery]] as "romantic", despite "the devastation it causes",<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20170823112156/http://degree180.com/i-think-affairs-are-romantic/</ref> and said she "believe[s] in sexual freedom, and as long as there are two consenting individuals—who am I to place judgement … More power to them, am I right?"<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20170823064917/http://degree180.com/heterosexualmales-whats-obsession-anal-sex/</ref> She also penned a step-by-step guide to [[deceit|lying]] successfully in order to obtain Adderall without a prescription or doctor's evaluation.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20170831104731/http://degree180.com/how-i-scored-an-adderall-prescription-without-so-much-as-a-doctors-evaluation-3-easy-steps/</ref>

==See also==
*[[Black Voices for Trump]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Owens, Candace}}
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:Conservative Women]]
[[Category:Conservative Commentators]]
[[Category:Black Conservatives]]

Talk:Blexit

2019-11-11T01:24:35Z

JohnZ:

Candace Owens

2019-11-11T00:12:42Z

JohnZ: Repudiation by Kanye West

Blexit

2019-11-10T21:07:40Z

JohnZ: Fair enough. Black voters are surely representative of black voters, though.

'''Blexit''' is a movement founded by [[Candace Owens]] of Blacks coming out of the closet, admitting they are [[conservative]], and voting [[Republican]] while abandoning the [[Democrat]]s they had previously supported. Just cause you're black, you don't have to be Democrat.

In the [[2018 midterm election]]s, 90% of black voters chose Democratic candidates, including comparable shares of black men (88%) and black women (92%).<ref>https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/08/the-2018-midterm-vote-divisions-by-race-gender-education/</ref>

==Testimonials==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PRZiFzonUo Reparations For Slavery]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BEuK9BTHwI TRUMP'S #WALKAWAY VIDEO & FAKE UKRAINE IMPEACHMENT SCANDAL]
*[https://www.youtube.com/user/semajthethird/search?query=democrat This is why The Democrat Controlled House of 2019 Should Scare the Schiff Out of You!]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xbuub4g7Y "Poor Kids are just as Bright as White Kids" Says Joe Biden]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpt_Fh5zfks Black Conservatives on Accusations of Tea Party "Racism"]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd9nurWcyWI Impeachment Inquiry is a JOKE]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EzDWcszqiM Reperations for LGBT???]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhJbXHTNj0E Funny! Black People Still trapped in Slavery. Racism Doesn’t Exist. Democratics not for Blacks]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qgkeYVLQyQ Democrats Are Running Out Of Race Cards]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4U_OyRXo7A Bold TV at the Young Black Leadership Summit]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQMy969fzU HOW DEMOCRATS TRAINED A NEGRO IN ORDER TO CONTROL BLACK AMERICA'S VOTE!]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M2s6oKN8MQ Black Men in Dresses]

==See also==
*[[Black Voices for Trump]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Conservatism]]

Edmund Fitzgerald

2019-11-10T20:55:05Z

JohnZ: subbed intro

[[Image:Edmundfitzgerald.jpg|thumb|300px|right|SS ''Edmund Fitzgerald'']]
'''SS ''Edmund Fitzgerald''''' was a freighter which sank in a savage gale on [[Lake Superior]] on the night of November 10, 1975. All 29 members of her crew died attempting to reach safe harbor in Whitefish Bay, [[Michigan]]. The tragedy inspired the hit ballad ''[[The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald]]'' by [[Canada|Canadian]] songwriter Gordon Lightfoot.

==Background==
''Edmund Fitzgerald'' was launched on June 7, 1958, from the Great Lakes Engineering Works at River Rouge, MI, a suburb on the south side of Detroit. She was owned by the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Co. and named after the company's newly elected chairman of the board. The Oglebay-Norton Company of Cleveland, Ohio chartered her under a long-term contract from Northwestern.

At the time of her launch the ''Fitzgerald'' was the largest ore carrier on the Great Lakes, and remained so until 1971. She weighed 13,632 tons and measured 729 feet long by 75 feet wide. Fully loaded, the ''Fitzgerald'' was capable of carrying 27,500 tons, powered by a 7,500 horsepower steam turbine engine that could move her along at up to 17 knots. In 1964 ''Edmund Fitzgerald'' became the first carrier to haul more than one million tons of iron ore pellets (taconite) through the locks at Sault Ste. Marie, earning her the nicknames the "Big Fitz" and "The Pride of the American Flag". Sailors considered themselves privileged to serve aboard her.

Captain Ernest McSorley, a veteran mariner with over 40 years experience, assumed command of ''Fitzgerald'' at the start of the 1972 shipping season. He had commanded nine ships before joining the ship. A quiet person, Captain McSorley was well respected by his contemporaries as a skillful master and by his men, whom he treated as true professionals. Captain McSorley turned 62 in 1975 and was happily married. Although he had no children of his own, his wife Nellie was the mother of three children from a previous marriage.

''Edmund Fitzgerald'' continued her fine record of service under the new Captain's command into 1975. However, on October 31, 1975 the Coast Guard noted a problem during a routine inspection of the vessel at Toledo, Ohio. The inspectors found a number of hatch covers that seal the cargo area would not close properly, meaning that water which washed on board the deck would be able to leak into the cargo hold.

==The last voyage==
''Fitzgerald'' began Sunday, November 9, 1975, loading 26,116 tons of taconite at the Burlington Northern Railroad Dock #1 in Superior, Wisconsin. On this 40th voyage in her 17th season, ''Fitzgerald's'' destination was a steel plant on Zug Island in the Detroit River. The weather that morning was cloudy and cool with a light northeast wind. However, a deepening storm system was already taking shape in the central Plains.
====Deteriorating weather====
By early afternoon, she was loaded and ready to depart. At 2:19 PM, ''Fitzgerald'' left Superior and soon entered the open waters of western Lake Superior. The [[National Weather Service]] forecast at that time called for east to northeast winds increasing to 25 to 37 knots during the night, then shifting to north or northwest 24 to 40 knots on the afternoon of the 10th. Soon after she left, the National Weather Service issued a [[gale]] warning for Lake Superior, forecasting sustained east winds between 34 and 48 knots beginning that night ahead of the intensifying storm in the central Plains then moving into Iowa. Captain McSorley acknowledged receipt of the warning in a radio communication with Captain Bernie Cooper of the ''Arthur M. Anderson'', another ore carrier that had steamed out of Two Harbors, Minnesota at almost the same time the ''Fitzgerald'' had left Superior. After reading the updated weather forecast, the two captains decided to travel closely together across northern Lake Superior and then southeast along the east shore of the Lake to the Soo Locks. By doing so, they could monitor each other and possibly avoid the higher waves that would be generated over southern Lake Superior on the 10th by the expected north to northwest winds.

At 1:00 AM on November 10, ''Fitzgerald'' and ''Anderson'' were south of Isle Royale in western Lake Superior. The storm system moving northeast from the central Plains had continued to strengthen and reached north central Wisconsin by early morning on the 10th. ''Fitzgerald'' reported northeast winds at 52 knots with 10-foot waves at 1:00 AM, and the National Weather Service soon upgraded the gale warning to a storm warning, forecasting sustained northeast winds 48 to 63 knots and 8- to 15-foot waves for the rest of the night. Captains McSorley and Cooper both expressed concern about the deteriorating weather conditions. At 7:00 AM, the ships were approximately 45 miles north of Copper Harbor, Michigan. The ''Fitzgerald'' observed northeast winds at 35 knots and 10-foot waves as the intensifying low pressure center moved over Marquette, Michigan. This report was the last weather observation she would disseminate.

By early afternoon on the 10th, the storm system had moved into southern [[Ontario]], and the ships had reached a point about 10 miles northwest of Michipicoten Island in eastern Lake Superior, now heading southeast toward the Soo Locks. The weather report at 1:00 PM from the M/V ''Simcoe'', a Canadian vessel about 15 miles from ''Fitzgerald'', indicated the surface low pressure center had passed north of Lake Superior: the wind had shifted to the west at 44 knots. At 2:45 PM, the ''Anderson'' observed northwest winds at 42 knots and 12- to 16-foot waves. The storm had become so bad that the Soo Locks were forced to close.
====Taking on water====
Captain Cooper, who could see ''Fitzgerald'' on the ''Anderson's'' radar screen, worried that the ship might have moved too closely to shallower water about 35 feet deep off the Ontario coast near Caribou Island at 3:15 PM. He was concerned that ''Fitzgerald'' could strike the bottom of Lake Superior as it was tossed around in the increasingly violent seas, damage its hull, and leak in water. In fact at 3:30 PM, Captain McSorley radioed ''Anderson'' and indicated ''Fitzgerald'' was taking in water and had developed a list. Two water pumps were running to pump out the water. ''Fitzgerald'' had also sustained topside damage.

During the late afternoon of the 10th, ship observations show sustained northwest winds over 50 knots were occurring across eastern Lake Superior. At 4:00 PM, an estimated 75-knot, hurricane-force northwest wind gust struck ''Anderson''. Captain McSorley contacted ''Anderson'' shortly after and indicated he had lost both his radars used for guidance, presumably due to wind damage suffered from this mighty gust. He requested ''Anderson'' to monitor his position and course. The wind gust also knocked out the lighthouse and radio beacon at Whitefish Point. The implication of all this equipment loss was that ''Fitzgerald'' was now sailing blindly, completely dependent on ''Anderson'' for navigational guidance.

At 5:45 PM, Captain McSorley was in communication with the ship ''Avafors'', indicating ''Fitzgerald'' was suffering a bad list, had lost both radars, and was taking in heavy seas over the deck. Captain McSorley stated: "One of the worst seas I've ever been in."
====Disappearence====
At 7:00 PM, ''Anderson'', trailing ''Fitzgerald'' by about 10 miles, was struck by two waves estimated at 25 feet or higher. At 7:10 PM, Captain McSorley told ''Anderson'' "We are holding our own." This was the last communication from the Fitzgerald. At 7:15 PM November 10, ''Anderson'' lost ''Fitzgerald'' on radar as a snow squall enveloped the doomed ship.

''Anderson'' tried to contact ''Fitzgerald'' again, but to no avail. A worried Captain Cooper called the Coast Guard at Sault Ste. Marie to report his concern about ''Fitzgerald'', but the storm severely impacted search operations. ''Anderson'' turned out to be the primary vessel in the search and later that night discovered two badly damaged lifeboats and some other debris, but no survivors.
==Search==
The Coast Guard conducted a thorough search in the next several days. On the 14th, a U.S. Navy plane with a special magnetic anomaly detector located a strong contact about 17 miles northwest of Whitefish Point. During the next three days, the Coast Guard cutter ''Woodrush'' located two large pieces of wreckage in the same area under about 535 feet of water. A Navy underwater recovery vehicle on May 20, 1976, photographed the wreckage. The pictures clearly showed the words "Edmund Fitzgerald" on the stern piece of the sunken ship.
==Aftermath==
Since ''Fitzgerald'' never called for help and the ship?s lifeboats were found badly damaged—indicating they were never launched but instead smashed while still secured to the ship-the Coast Guard determined the ship sank abruptly. The Coast Guard concluded these were the primary factors that caused ''Fitzgerald'' to sink:
*''Fitzgerald'' sat very low in the water, increasing the frequency and quantity of water that could flood the deck.
*The loose hatch covers allowed water spilling on board to enter the cargo area, causing the ship to sink even lower and take on more and more water.
*More water could have entered through damage in the hull caused by the possible grounding near Caribou Island.

Although there is speculation that ''Fitzgerald'' broke in half on the surface as the bow and stern rode the crests of the two large waves that struck ''Anderson'' earlier, the Coast Guard's final report suggests ''Fitzgerald'' instead nose dived into a large wave, was unable to recover because it had lost so much buoyancy, and plunged to the bottom of Lake Superior in seconds. As the heavy cargo shifted forward quickly while ''Fitzgerald'' was going down, the bow of the ship hit the bottom with such force that the vessel snapped in two. Of course, there are no witnesses to verify these conclusions.

Canadian songwriter Gordon Lightfoot immortalized the loss of ''Edmund Fitzgerald'' and all 29 aboard with his 1976 hit song "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald." On July 4, 1995, divers recovered ''Fitzgerald's'' bell from the bottom of Lake Superior, replacing it with a replica engraved with the names of the crew. In a ceremony at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point on November 10, 1995, the bell was presented to the relatives of the crew and rung 30 times: once for each member of the crew and a final time in honor of all those who have lost their lives at sea. The bell remains at the Shipwreck Museum today.

==The crew==
*Michael E. Armagost, 37, Third Mate, Iron River, Wisconsin
*Fred J. Beetcher, 56, Porter, Superior, Wisconsin
*Thomas D. Bentsen, 23, Oiler, St. Joseph, Michigan
*Edward F. Bindon, 47, First Asst. Engineer, Fairport Harbor, Ohio
*Thomas D. Borgeson, 41, Maintenance Man, Duluth, Minnesota
*Oliver J. Champeau, 41, Third Asst. Engineer, Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
*Nolan S. Church, 55, Porter, Silver Bay, Minnesota
*Ransom E. Cundy, 53, Watchman, Superior, Wisconsin
*Thomas E. Edwards, 50, Second Asst. Engineer, Oregon, Ohio
*Russell G. Haskell, 40, Second Asst. Engineer, Millbury, Ohio
*George J. Holl, 60, Chief Engineer, Cabot, Pennsylvania
*Bruce L. Hudson, 22, Deck Hand, North Olmsted, Ohio
*Allen G. Kalmon, 43, Second Cook, Washburn, Wisconsin
*Gordon F. MacLellan, 30, Wiper, Clearwater, Florida
*Joseph W. Mazes, 59, Special Maintenance Man, Ashland, Wisconsin
*John H. McCarthy, 62, First Mate, Bay Village, Ohio
*Ernest M. McSorley, 63, Captain, Toledo, Ohio
*Eugene W. O'Brien, 50, Wheelsman, Toledo, Ohio
*Karl A. Peckol, 20, Watchman, Ashtabula, Ohio
*John J. Poviach, 59, Wheelsman, Bradenton, Florida
*James A. Pratt, 44, Second Mate, Lakewood, Ohio
*Robert C. Rafferty, 62, Steward, Toledo, Ohio
*Paul M. Riippa, 22, Deck Hand, Ashtabula, Ohio
*John D. Simmons, 63, Wheelsman, Ashland, Wisconsin
*William J. Spengler, 59, Watchman, Toledo, Ohio
*Mark A. Thomas, 21, Deck Hand, Richmond Heights, Ohio
*Ralph G. Walton, 58, Oiler, Fremont, Ohio
*David E. Weiss, 22, Cadet, Agoura, California
*Blaine H. Wilhelm, 52, Oiler, Moquah, Wisconsin

==Links==
*[http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/WEBSHIPWRECKS/EdmundFitzgeraldNTSBReport.html Official NTSB report, from the U.S. Coast Guard]
*[http://www.ssefo.com/ SS ''Edmund Fitzgerald'' Online]

{{License|license = This work is in the [[public domain]] in the United States because it is a work of the United States Federal Government under the terms of Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 105 of the US Code.| source = [http://www.crh.noaa.gov/mqt/fitzgerald/fitz.php]}}

[[Category:Ships]][[Category:Ship Sinkings]][[Category:Great Lakes]]

Talk:Blexit

2019-11-10T20:37:33Z

JohnZ:

Blexit

2019-11-10T20:04:18Z

JohnZ: 2018 midterms & current black members of Congress

'''Blexit''' is a movement founded by [[Candace Owens]] of Blacks coming out of the closet, admitting they are [[conservative]], and voting [[Republican]] while abandoning the [[Democrat]]s they had previously supported. Just cause you're black, you don't have to be Democrat.

In the [[2018 midterm election]]s, 90% of black voters chose Democratic candidates, including comparable shares of black men (88%) and black women (92%).<ref>https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/08/the-2018-midterm-vote-divisions-by-race-gender-education/</ref> The GOP currently has two black members of Congress: Senator [[Tim Scott]] (SC) and Rep. [[Will Hurd]] (TX-23). Both are considered moderate establishment Republicans.

==Testimonials==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PRZiFzonUo Reparations For Slavery]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BEuK9BTHwI TRUMP'S #WALKAWAY VIDEO & FAKE UKRAINE IMPEACHMENT SCANDAL]
*[https://www.youtube.com/user/semajthethird/search?query=democrat This is why The Democrat Controlled House of 2019 Should Scare the Schiff Out of You!]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xbuub4g7Y "Poor Kids are just as Bright as White Kids" Says Joe Biden]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpt_Fh5zfks Black Conservatives on Accusations of Tea Party "Racism"]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd9nurWcyWI Impeachment Inquiry is a JOKE]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EzDWcszqiM Reperations for LGBT???]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhJbXHTNj0E Funny! Black People Still trapped in Slavery. Racism Doesn’t Exist. Democratics not for Blacks]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qgkeYVLQyQ Democrats Are Running Out Of Race Cards]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4U_OyRXo7A Bold TV at the Young Black Leadership Summit]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQMy969fzU HOW DEMOCRATS TRAINED A NEGRO IN ORDER TO CONTROL BLACK AMERICA'S VOTE!]
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M2s6oKN8MQ Black Men in Dresses]

==See also==
*[[Black Voices for Trump]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Conservatism]]

Talk:Infant baptism

2019-11-06T02:03:50Z

JohnZ: /* More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement */

Talk:Infant baptism

2019-11-06T00:23:52Z

JohnZ: /* More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement */

Talk:Infant baptism

2019-11-05T22:20:05Z

JohnZ: /* More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement */

Debates on Conservapedia talk pages are not normally permitted. The debate that developed below may be regarded as a useful companion to the main article. See also more debate [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Infant_baptism here.]

Note: November 3, 2019 all occurrences of the various forms of the words "justify/justification" and "saved/salvation" in the comments posted to this date have been emphasized with boldface type for clarification of the fundamental controversy.
[[category:Debate]]
==Romans 10:9==
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+10%3A9&version=NIV Romans 10:9] is most often cited that no form of baptism is required for '''salvation'''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:49, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

:Thank you Rob. The dispute over this issue also includes a requisite follow-up by the believer according to the [[Great Commission]] of [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+28%3A19-20&version=NIV Matthew 28:19-20] and the requirement of [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+16%3A15-16&version=NIV Mark 16:15-16] and [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+8%3A35-39&version=NIV Acts 8:35-39]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+9%3A17-19&version=NIV Acts 9:17-19]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+10%3A47-48&version=NIV Acts 10:47-48]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+19%3A1-6&version=NIV Acts 19:1-6], together with the commandment of Paul in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+thessalonians+2%3A15&version=NIV 2 Thessalonians 2:15]. According to [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+peter+3%3A21&version=NIV 1 Peter 3:21] baptism (in Christ) is what '''saves''' us now (as cited in the article). [[Infant baptism]] here includes a list-citation of undeniable Bible references which mention the requirement of baptism for '''salvation'''. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A3-5&version=NRSVCE John 3:3-5]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28%3A18-19&version=NRSVCE Matthew 28:18-19]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16%3A15-16&version=NRSVCE Mark 16:15-16]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2%3A38-39&version=NRSVCE Acts 2:38-39]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-27&version=NRSVCE Ephesians 5:25-27]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A21&version=NRSVCE 1 Peter 3:21]. Any preaching that ignores these verses is a good example of [[confirmation bias]] and of [[Cafeteria Christianity]].
:See also the general article on [[Baptism]]. Peace be with you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 15:01, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
::It's basically the difference between Roman Catholic and Protestant; Protestants say it takes the conscious will of the believer; Catholics say it doesn't. In the Mormon faith they practice intercessionary baptism for the dead, which isn't far removed from infant baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:19, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
:::The resemblance is only superficial. See the article [[fallacy of analogy]]. The differences between Catholic and Mormon theology are profound, not to mention the fact that Catholicism is [[monotheistic]] and the Mormon faith posits a multiplicity of separately distinct god-beings comparable to the doctrine of [[Cosmic Humanism]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 15:59, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Not that far off; the idea of a ceremonial cleansing ritual necessary for '''salvation''' for a subject who hasn't given consent is ridiculous. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 16:23, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::Also, it might be worth noting that several manuscripts and numerous versions of the modern Bible include verse 37 in Acts 8:35-39. The NIV just leaves out this verse:
::::: {{cquote|See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
[37] '''Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”'''
'''And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”'''
[38] So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.}}
:::::This verse makes it clear that the belief is required prior to baptism. --[[User:DavidB4|DavidB4]] ([[User talk:DavidB4|TALK]]) 16:42, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::The issue is '''''salvation'''''. And what is required for '''''salvation'''''. The answer is ''metanoia'' - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. Ritual cleansing cannot satisfy God.
:::::::Here's the Express drive-thru scriptural interpretation:
:::::::*Satan defied God and when he said "I will exalt myself..."
:::::::*Jesus provided the way for '''salvation''' when he said "Father, let this cup pass, nevertheless Thy will, not my will..."
:::::::*In the proverb of the Prodigal son, which is a metaphor for all '''unsaved''' humanity, the prodigal son said, "I will return to house of my father...." (i.e. ''metanoia'' or repentance, a change of heart and mind toward his father) ''without'' any ritual cleansing on his part. When he arrived, he was clothed by his father. Only the blood of Jesus '''saves''';.
::::::And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "''For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto '''salvation'''.'' In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth. '''Salvation''' is not dependent upon any action (or "work") by us. "It is finished", as Jesus said. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:20, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

In the body of the article I covered both sides of that point as follows:
:This doctrine of "regenerative baptism" which causes an [[Ontology|ontological change]] that actually cleanses and washes away sins, by effecting in the soul a new supernatural life directly infused by the "washing of water with the word", is found by apologists for infant baptism in the following scriptural texts:
::[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+11%3A19-20&version=NRSVCE Ezekiel 11:19-20]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+36%3A25-29&version=NRSVCE 36:25-29a]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+24%3A7&version=NRSVCE Jeremiah 24:7]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31%3A31-33&version=NRSVCE 31:31-33]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+3%3A5-6&version=NRSVCE Titus 3:5-6]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+1%3A9&version=NRSVCE 2 Peter 1:9]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A21&version=NRSVCE 1 Peter 3:21]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-27&version=NRSVCE Ephesians 5:25b-27]; and [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+2%3A9-14&version=NRSVCE Colossians 2:9-14].
:They point to these texts as teaching that according to the Bible baptism [[Salvation|'''saves''']] us now by regeneration of the soul unto new life, as a "new creature", and that Jesus sanctifies and cleanses his church with the washing of water with the word as a [[sign]] of the cleansing of the soul by his blood, to present the whole church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. They point to the fact that Paul teaches by a [[Typology|typological]] [[analogy]] that baptism replaces [[circumcision]], which is done when a child is only eight days old, which made that baby a genuine member of the people of God, to be raised and taught the way of the Lord in truth, by the priests of the faith.<ref>[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+2%3A4-7&version=NRSVCE Malachi 2:4-7]</ref>

:This doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which includes infant baptism, is repudiated as being totally against the teaching of the Bible. Abraham, our father in [[faith]], was converted, regenerated, forgiven and had righteousness reckoned (imputed) to him by faith (an unborn or newborn child cannot exercise faith), being circumcised in the heart by faith, apart from physical circumcision, baptism, or any other statute, or ordinance. Those who reject infant baptism as regenerative or '''salvific''' in any manner accept that the outward [[symbol]] of washing of water with the word is an [[ordinance]] to be faithfully obeyed, not a [[sacrament]], an outward testimony to faith in the '''salvation''' of God through [[Belief|believing]] in the promises of Jesus Christ alone. They obey His ordained ordinances, including baptism, because by faith in Him they '''''are''''' regenerated, not in order to '''''be''''' regenerated; and as a result of '''''having''''' a new heart, not that they might receive a new heart.<ref>See [https://www.bing.com/search?q=a+concise+refutation+of+baptismal+regeneration%2C+by+james+p.+shelley.&form=EDGEAR&qs=PF&cvid=3f263ada36184adab3a65191ce7aba9c&cc=US&setlang=en-US&plvar=0 A Concise Refutation of Baptismal Regeneration, by James P. Shelley (bing.com)] Also [https://arcapologetics.org/comparative-religion/baptismal-regeneration-refuted/ Baptismal Regeneration Refuted, By Robin A. Brace - Apologetics Resource Center(arcapologetics.org)]</ref>
No one can say that I didn't present both sides. The scriptures listed here are the best response I can give to the objections raised here regarding the need for conscious repentance, and the fact that infants unborn and born are incapable of it before they are able to walk. You have clearly articulated the position for credobaptism, [[Reiteration|reiterating]] the arguments for it which I was very careful to represent without distortion as more extensively explained in the article. Having been an ardent Conservative Baptist and anti-Catholic in my youth, I know the arguments for it from the inside. See the related article giving both views in '''[[Salvation: declarational salvation and ontological salvation]]'''. Both cannot be true at the same time. Only one is probably right. Either that, or both are wrong. Meanwhile, look at [http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-11.htm Revelation 22:11] and [http://biblehub.com/matthew/15-14.htm Matthew 15:14]. It remains a matter of faith and discernment and being "honest to God". In accordance with your own tradition of preaching, be very certain that your position is correct before you die. I cannot fault your obviously genuine sincerity and your passion for scriptural proof in defense of your position. This response above, and the whole of the article itself, is all I have to say to your position that baptism is not required for '''salvation'''. As a Bible believer, I cannot ignore the whole of the scriptural context of the Bible. I wish you well. ''pax vobis''. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 11:00, 10 October 2019 (EDT)
:Thank you. I wasn't intending to get into an argument over the merits of one side or the other. Th Protestant version is quite straight forward - Romans 10:9-10, and Ephesian 2:8 ''By grace are ye '''saved'''...not of works'', attributing baptism as a "work" on the believers part, nullifying the work on the cross. In Protestantism, physical baptism is symbolic, and not necessary for '''salvation'''. Even in John the Baptist's day, it was symbolic; it wasn't lepers "going out in the wilderness to see," as Jesus said, it was lost sinners to ''hear'' the word of God, and be "immersed" or "baptized" in the word. John the Baptist performed a ritual, which was only symbolic, while delivering the word. This is the Protestant teaching in a few words. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:15, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

:Even in Catholicism, infant baptism is symbolic, because babies are not immersed, only sprinkled. The word baptism means immersed. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:21, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

::The regular Catholic rite of baptism is by infusion (pouring), or by immersion (being immersed) or submersion (standing in water, with water poured over the head), not by aspersion. You have been misinformed by sources that cannot be trusted, since it is evident that what they told you about Catholic baptism is not true. Look at [http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-22.htm Hebrews 10:22] "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." And [http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5] "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and ''of'' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And [http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-2.htm 1 Peter 1:2] "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." According to Catholic doctrine the sacrament of water baptism is an actual application of the blood of Christ directly to the soul through the washing ([http://biblehub.com/greek/3067.htm λουτρόν loutron], not solely [http://biblehub.com/greek/907.htm immersion βαπτίζω baptizo]) of water with the word (both word ''and'' water are required). As Moses sprinkled ([http://biblehub.com/greek/4473.htm ραντίσμος rhantismos]) the book and all the people with blood, purifying them, "purging them", so also the sprinkling (of the blood of Christ) in baptism purges away sin (Hebrews 9:18-23). "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus [Baptism], By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the vail, that is to say, his flesh [Eucharist]; And ''having'' an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled ([http://biblehub.com/greek/4473.htm ραντίσμος rhantismos]) from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed ([http://biblehub.com/greek/3067.htm λουτρόν loutron]) with pure water." The evil conscience is the stain of original sin in the sight of God which makes us aware that we already from the moment of conception fall short of the glory of God, and the additional defilement of an evil conscience by any personal sins committed after birth. Thus infants and babies are cleansed of an evil conscience because of original sin. If they didn't have sin, they could not die (Romans 5:12), but many babies and newborns do die. Baptism '''saves''' 1 Peter 3:21 by washing away sins Acts 22:16. Catholic tradition since the time of the catacombs and the imprisonment of converts not yet baptized (the Romans even condemned babies of converts) taught then and teaches now the act of baptism into the blood of Christ unto '''salvation''' was held to have been accomplished in emergency with the least droplet of "water with the word" in accordance with the command in Matthew 28:19 to [first] baptize making them disciples, to be followed in Matthew 28:20 by [second] the teaching of the faith of belief, "all that I have commanded you". In the article I listed those several verses which are cited to support regenerative baptism.
::The necessity of [[baptism]] for '''[[salvation]]''' is seen by the majority of Christians as divinely revealed by God in the following Bible texts: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A3-5&version=NRSVCE John 3:3-5]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28%3A18-19&version=NRSVCE Matthew 28:18-19]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16%3A15-16&version=NRSVCE Mark 16:15-16]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2%3A38-39&version=NRSVCE Acts 2:38-39]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-27&version=NRSVCE Ephesians 5:25-27]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A21&version=NRSVCE 1 Peter 3:21].
::"You are badly misled" Mark 12:27. (James 5:20) —Peace be with you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:58, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

:::John 4:10, "''I will give you living waters''" [https://biblehub.com/john/4-10.htm], spoken by the same guy who said, "''unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit'' (he said nothing of immersion in either context).
:::I was baptized Catholic I think at about 10 days old. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:13, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

::::Take a look at the new section presenting a comparative analysis of Faith and Works relating to infant baptism [[Infant baptism#Faith and works]]. If this is not balanced, or unfair, please let me know. I hope this helps. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:56, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::Thanks. And the link to '''[[Eternal security (salvation)]]''' is a big help. It all comes down to the simple Question of ''What is '''Salvation'''?''
:::::From there we ask ''Why did Christ die?'', or ''What is the work of the cross?''
:::::When those questions are answered, then comes the question ''What is necessary for '''salvation'''?'', which leads to the question surrounding "baptism", and what does it mean "to be baptized."
:::::IOWs, we sort of started in a reverse order here. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 14:19, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

==Refs==
{{reflist}}

== Article completed, request that it be locked ==

I have finally completed the whole article, after carefully reviewing and representing all of the relevant controversial views and sources historical and contemporary both ''pro'' and ''con''. Due to the intense controvery and [[polemic]] attending this topic that I found still evident online during my researches, I humbly ask that the article be locked to prevent both vandalism and any re-editing by subtle deletions and additions intended to slant it more toward or away from any one particular doctrinal view. "Just the facts, Ma'am." (Det. Sgt. Joe Friday–''Dragnet'' TV series). Peace be with you. ''Semper Fi ! '' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 14:39, 18 October 2019 (EDT)
:Given that I have a lot to do off wiki, I added a small amount of information, yet the information I did add made very important points.

:After all is said and done, I think you knew the article had its shortcomings in terms of not adequately representing views other than your own. And that is why you wanted the article locked. But Conservapedia has a number of conservative Protestant editors, so you cannot expect Conservapedia articles not to adequately cover the Protestant view. If you do this, you will just cause unnecessary edit warring, etc. [[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:46, 4 November 2019 (EST)

::I relied on what I found online at Wikipedia "Infant baptism" and with search "Denominations that practice infant baptism". Both searches provided the statements made in the body of the article re denominations that do not practice infant baptism, for example the "Oneness" groups. I repeated the same information further down, that the credobaptist position condemns to hell the whole specific list of denominations that practice infant baptism. I appreciate what you added and have absolutely no objection to it. However, you seriously misjudged my motive for requesting a lock according to reasons I explained to Andy Schlafly on his talk page regarding the hot-button topic of infant baptism as treated online. He apparently agreed with my reason. The behavior of RobSmith, below, is a perfect example of intrusively prejudicial one-sided editing imbalance that should be kept from a balanced article on such a sensitive doctrinal issue. I wish you well. Thank you, again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:30, 5 November 2019 (EST)

== "Helpless" babies and sinners - Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35 ==

Consider the argument that Jesus died to '''save''' the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the fact that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. The word "faith" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God '''saves''' them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word (Ephesians 5:26). Peace be with you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:53, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
:After careful reflection and consideration, I have decided it would be useful to adapt the comments immediately above into a brief separate article: [[Helpless babies and sinners]]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
::What is '''salvation'''?
::And please, make your response simple enough that an 8 year old child can understand. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:01, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

::Let me help you. First, I see you left out the context of Ephesians:
:::2:8 ''By grace are ye '''saved''', through faith, and that not of you own; it is a gift from God.'' - no conditions are placed on grace, other than acceptance. A pardon must be accepted to be valid.
::But you are citing it in your second reference,
:::Romans 5:15: ''But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man'' - again, a gift with no conditions.
::So grace is a free gift of God - with no conditions (i.e. such as baptism). And '''salvation''' is by grace.
::The only condition for '''salvation''' is acceptance of the gift. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 13:48, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

::Your argument seems to be that '''salvation''' is some future event, '' after'' life in the flesh. To discuss any of this, you need to (1) define '''salvation'''; (2) explain why '''salvation''' is not for the here and now. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 14:00, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

:::'''[[Salvation]]''' is [[eternal life]] instead of death, given by [[baptism]] now. Simple. The gift of unmerited '''salvation''' which gives eternal life is directly bestowed by the regeneration of baptism ([http://biblehub.com/titus/3-5.htm Titus 3:5]) "which '''saves''' you ''now''" ([http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-21.htm 1 Peter 3:21]) [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|''ex opere operato'']], through the ministry of others not of themselves "on behalf of Christ" ([http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-18.htm 2 Corinthians 5:18]), on behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ who does the actual work of the [[sacrament]] himself through his blood ([http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-2.htm 1 Peter 1:2]), in accordance with the established doctrinal condition demanded by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, "Except a man (Gr '''τις''' ''tis'' "anyone") be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." [http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5]. This is the free gift of God—with the condition that the Lord himself laid down to be '''saved'''. Jesus sanctifies and cleanses "by the washing of water with the word" ([http://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-26.htm Ephesians 5:26]). He commanded baptism in [http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm Matthew 28:19]. "Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I command?" ([http://biblehub.com/luke/6-46.htm Luke 6:46]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-21.htm Matthew 7:21]; [http://biblehub.com/john/15-10.htm John 15:10]). Jesus does this from love for a purpose ([http://biblehub.com/john/3-17.htm John 3:17]; [http://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-5.htm Ephesians 1:5]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm Matthew 28:19]). '''Salvation''' is the rescue of the soul, by the cleansing blood of Christ on the cross ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-7.htm 1 John 1:7]) through the washing of water with the word, that the soul might be born again (regenerated) by water and the Spirit, '''saved ''from''''' the everlasting ruin of sin, '''saved ''for''''' "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." ([http://biblehub.com/romans/2-7.htm Romans 2:7]; [http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-7.htm 1 John 3:7]; [http://biblehub.com/james/2-24.htm James 2:24]). Babies '''saved''' by the '''salvation''' of baptism grow up to serve the Lord by the power of the grace bestowed through '''salvation''' by regeneration, by the washing of water with the word, born again by water and the Spirit, buried with him in baptism—'''saved''' from the wrath to come on those who are not cleansed of their sin ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-10.htm 1 John 3:10]; [http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/7-1.htm 2 Corinthians 7:1]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-15.htm Revelation 20:15]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-14.htm 22:14][http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-15.htm -15]). The essence of '''salvation''', and the result of '''salvation''', bestowed on the helpless sinner is a '''partaking of the divine nature''' ([http://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-4.htm 2 Peter 1:4]) by the everlasting life of God in Christ Jesus poured out on the helpless soul ([http://biblehub.com/romans/5-6.htm Romans 5:6]) by "water and the Spirit", and the [[eucharist]], which bestows the "life that now is and is to come" [http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-8.htm 1 Timothy 4:8]. Read the article [http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp239.htm Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone ''because of their faith?'' - Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org)]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Ok. A rather full, complete response. Now, ''When does '''salvation''' begin?''

::::And you know my next question, ''Can a person loose their '''salvation'''?'' ''Is God's promise of '''salvation''' limited?'' ''Can "'''salvation''' by baptism" be lost? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:46, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::'''Salvation begins with baptism'''. See the [[Catechism of the Catholic Church]], [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1213 '''1213-1284'''] and [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1987 '''1987-2029''']. God loves the whole world so much (John 3:16-17) that he is "not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The doctrine that '''salvation''' can be lost, that it can be rescinded, revoked and forfeited by mortal sin, is covered in the article '''[[Eternal security (salvation)]]'''. Abundant supporting Bible passages regarding the danger of losing '''salvation''' are listed and quoted there. It is also already adequately covered here in this article [[Infant baptism]]. From your question above, you either forgot the material covered in the article here, which fully answers your question, or you did not actually read it. If you did read it, please read it again. ([http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-15.htm 1&nbap; Peter 3:15])

:::::(''by the way, you misspelled "lose", as in lost. "loose" is to release, set free, unfasten.'') --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 17:22, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::Baptism does not '''save'''. The blood of Jesus '''saves'''. And eternal life does not mean eternal life, I suppose; God must be a liar, then. And you nullify the doctrine of grace and and death of Jesus if you think mortal sin can undo the work of Christ.
::::::Who needs Jesus? and what did he die for? if we are still judged by our works (being baptized) or mortal sins? Grace, I suppose is non-existent. And when God promised eternal life, it wasn't contingent on God's sacrifice of his Son, but still on your own works is what you are preaching.
::::::''This people worships me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men''
::::::See also Mark chapter 7: ''“You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!....13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”''

::::::Let me point out the obvious error - ''without shedding of blood there is no remission''. Baptism is by water, not of blood. You are offering a bloodless sacrifice of your works, rejecting the work of Christ, to establish your own tradition.. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:43, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-21.htm 1 Peter 3:21 "'''baptism doth also now ''save'' us.'''"] —You deny this.

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "'''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born''' (regenerated) '''of water and ''of'' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'''"] —You contradict this.

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-26.htm Hebrews 10:26 "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."]

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_peter/2-20.htm 2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."] —You deny this.

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-17.htm 2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."] —You deny this warning.

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-12.htm 1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."] —You deny this danger.

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_john/1-8.htm 2 John 8 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."]

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-3.htm 1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, ''even'' the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"] [http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-4.htm 1 Timothy 6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings"] [http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-5.htm 1 Timothy 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."]

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-14.htm 2 Timothy 2:14 "Of these things put ''them'' in remembrance, charging ''them'' before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, ''but'' to the subverting of the hearers."]

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/titus/3-9.htm Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."] [http://biblehub.com/titus/3-10.htm Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;"] [http://biblehub.com/titus/3-11.htm Titus 3:11 "Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."]

:::::::[http://biblehub.com/mark/7-9.htm Mark 7:9 "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."]

:::::::Rob, you deny scripture for the sake of your tradition. I stand by the Bible. Baptism '''saves''' by the blood of Christ. And Christian believers must be careful not to lose their reward. James 5:19-20. ''Semper Fi ! '' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:56, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::It is the blood of Christ that '''saves''', not water baptism. Eternal life means eternal life. ''While we yet sinners (helpless), Christ died.'' There is nothing you can do to '''save''' your self, other than faith in the finished work of Christ. ''For by grace are ye '''saved''''', not baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-21.htm 1 Peter 3:21 "'''baptism doth also now ''save'' us.'''"]
:::::::::[http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "'''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born''' (regenerated) '''of water and ''of'' the Spirit, he <big>cannot</big> enter into the kingdom of God.'''"] I will not debate this further. It is evident you contradict the Bible. A perfect example of [[Confirmation bias]] and [[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]]. I will die before I ever deny the word of Jesus Christ. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::One flaw: I asked ''What is '''salvation'''?'' You responded with church doctrine and church tradition, ''Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:49, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::The Bible says "baptism now '''saves''' us." That's '''salvation'''. Clearly, no debate. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:07, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::''Without shedding of blood there is no remission.'' I suspect the problem is you do not under stand what '''salvation''' is.
::::::::::::Lean what '''salvation''' is first, then we'll talk about being immersed in the word, or baptism in the spirit (same thing). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 20:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

===Salvation===
Let's go back to John 3:3,5. Jesus first says,
:''Except a man be born again, he cannot '''see''' the Kingdom of God.''
In verse 5 he says.
:''Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot '''enter''' into the Kingdom of God.
So, what is the difference between "seeing" the Kingdom of God, and "entering" the Kingdom of God? Moses saw the Promised Land, but did not enter. Was Moses '''saved'''? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 20:25, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Ok, let's go to the next level, which only the Spirit of God can reveal:
:John 1:27 ''No man hath seen God at any time''

:Exodus 33:11 ''The Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend''

Now, being immersed in the spirit, reconcile for me these two passages, and I'll believe that you are not unskillful in the word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:41, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

::''we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.''

::''But we have the mind of Christ.''

:So, to restate: ''No (natural) man hath seen God at any time...'' Moses had the ''mind of Christ'' enabling him to speak with the Lord ''face to face''.

::Exodus 33:13: ''Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found '''grace''' in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight''

:'''Salvation''' is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or ''see the Kingdom of God'')

:It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand. Just remember, ''That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit.'' Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 03:46, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

::'''Fundamental Salvation'''
::''For the benefit of other readers here'', it is evident that you did not read the two links I provided for direct access to the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', which '''affirms''' your last statement above "'''Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh'''" ([http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1213 '''1213-1284'''] and [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1987 '''1987-2029''']). It's pretty simple. Baptism '''saves''' the soul. A child can understand that.

::You asked me to answer the question, "What is '''salvation'''?" I gave you my answer from the Bible. The Bible answer to the question "What is '''salvation'''?" is set forth fully in the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' as a [[reiteration]] of all that the '''''Bible''''' says. The ''Catechism'' defines '''salvation''' from scripture alone, using abundant citations and quotations from scripture, with literal conclusions from scripture, drawn from the common understanding of the Church Fathers east and west, who based all they said on the [[Exegesis|literal sense of scripture]], the [[sensus fidelium]], [[sensus plenior]] and [[sensus Christianorum]] of Christianity, faithfully expressing "the mind of Christ", so that what you rejected as "traditions of men" is in fact the teaching of scripture, "and the scripture cannot be broken" ([http://biblehub.com/john/10-35.htm John 10:35]; [http://biblehub.com/mark/12-24.htm Mark 12:24]; [http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-34.htm 1 Corinthians 15:34]).

::I can say this because I am primarily and fundamentally a Bible apologist, who just happens to be Catholic. I was raised a Baptist. I know the Bible. I am 72 years old and I have read it cover to cover 82 times since before the age of 12 when I finally "went forward and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" and was baptized by full immersion at Grace Baptist Church (''Conservative Baptist'') in Des Moines, Iowa, in the spring of 1959. Shortly afterward I was appointed by the pastor as one of the "youth conversion counsellors" of newly baptized young teen converts and made one of the leaders of our Youth Group, and actively joined "Youth for Christ". Years later, as an adult, by fervent prayer, and by my knowledge of scripture and history and finding out by careful investigation what Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually teaches (which is not what I had been ''told'' they teach), at age 33 the Lord Jesus led me to embrace the Catholic Church as the most biblically faithful Church on the face of the earth. I held to three fundamental scripture passages:
::::'''[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1%3A6-9&version=KJV Galatians 1:6-9]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A18-19&version=KJV 1 John 2:18-19];''' and '''[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14%3A16-17&version=KJV John 14:16-17]''' ''with'' '''[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A12-14&version=KJV John 16:12-14].'''
::I looked for a church that did not come out of another church and teach a doctrine different from the church it came out of. Only one church qualified historically and scripturally. People asked me, "How can you do that?" I said, "Because I believe the Bible. Let me show you." I stand on the firm foundation of the doctrine of the Bible which includes all "authority established by God" ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-10&version=KJV Romans 13:1-10]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+13%3A17&version=KJV Hebrews 13:17]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2%3A13-17&version=KJV 1 Peter 2:13-17]). The established Church has "the mind of Christ".

::Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him ([http://biblehub.com/luke/10-16.htm Luke 10:16]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-40.htm Matthew 10:40]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm Luke 9:48]; [http://biblehub.com/john/13-20.htm John 13:20]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm 12:48]). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of '''salvation''' through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A9-11&version=KJV Romans 8:9-11]) in baptism with water ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-6.htm 1 John 5:6]; [http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-11.htm 1 Corinthians 6:11]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-5.htm Revelation 1:5]), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant ''together'', guided by the Holy Spirit ([http://biblehub.com/john/14-16.htm John 14:16] and [http://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm 26]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A13-14&version=KJV 16:13-14]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28%3A19-20&version=KJV Matthew 28:19-20]), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the [[Anabaptists]] and [[Baptist]]s as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page. [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/29-9.htm Proverbs 28:9] — also [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/18-1.htm 18:1]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/20-3.htm 20:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/22-10.htm 22:10]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-12.htm 26:12]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/27-3.htm 27:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/30-5.htm 30:5]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

===Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?===
:Very well. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4:2-4&version=KJV Hebs: 4:2] [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 13:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::Erroneous links have been corrected. My sincerest apology for access error. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:52, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
:::So, was the gospel preached to Israel in wilderness?
:::Remember, ''death reigned from Adam to Moses'' (Rom. 5:14). Are you arguing that Law gave life? Or was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:23, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::::[https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/4-2.htm] [http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-19.htm] [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1260.htm] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:08, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::So, I'll take that as being affirmative. The gospel was indeed preached to Israel in the wilderness. What gospel was preached? the gospel of grace? the gospel of '''salvation'''? the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:25, 28 October 2019 (EDT) 
::::::''It wasn't affirmative.'' If you had read the links I provided you would have seen the answer was not affirmative. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:45, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I took it as affirmative when you re-posted my link to Hebrews 4:2 above, and a quotation from some ''Pascal teaching''. Yes or no, ''Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?'' Use scripture to support your claims, not Pharisaical traditions. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::Two clues:
::::::Exodus 33:12: ''And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and '''thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me.'''''
::::::John 5:39: ''Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.'' Also,
::::::Luke 24:44 ''These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.''
:::::So what are we to conclude? The Gospel of '''salvation''' by grace was preached to Israel in the wilderness ''before'' the Law of Moses was given. But they could not enter in because of disbelief. Because of rejection of God's grace, and God's '''salvation''', they were given Law. And the Law cannot give life. The Law cannot '''save'''.
:::::'''Salvation''' is by grace, through faith. Baptism (other than spiritual baptism), i.e. baptism in the flesh, had nothing to do with it.
:::::If you want to dispute this, show me where Moses preached water baptism? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 21:24, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+30%3A17-21&version=KJV] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Exodus%2019%3A10] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2016%3A24] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2022%3A6] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Numbers%208%3A21] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Numbers%2019%3A12] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+23%3A10-11&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+29&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+40&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+8&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+51&version=KJV] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2022%3A29] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::::''The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.''

:::::::So, you cited a bunch of texts from the Law of Moses; but that doesn't answer the question. You haven't provided anything to answer ''What is '''salvation'''?'', or an understanding of grace. All you've done is post Mosaic Law and church doctrine.

::::::::''That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit''.

::::::::''The natural man cannot understand the things of God.''

:::::::You're proving the truth of the Word of God by evading a simple question, clinging to Law and church doctrine, and ignoring the gospel of grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:26, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

:::::::::[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19] [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1257] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2022%3A29] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2015%3A14] [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A17]--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::More church doctrine, ''rendering the word of God to no effect.''
::::::::::IOWs, Moses set before the people a choice between God's Law and God's grace. The people chose Law (''and their carcasses fell in the wilderness'').
:::::::::::Rom. 7:10: ''And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.''
:::::::::::Rom. 4:15: ''For the law brings wrath''
:::::::::::Rom. 8:6: ''to be carnally minded'' [the natural man] ''is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.''
:::::::::::Rom. 5:9 ''having now been '''justified''' by His blood, we shall be '''''saved'' from the wrath of God''' through Him.''
::::::::::You're just preaching wrath and law, not the gospel of life, peace, and grace. A gospel of works, '''which is no gospel at all'' (Gal. 1:7).
::::::::::The early Apostles had this debate, ''Ye must be circumcised'', the same as "ye must be physically baptized." ''Circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter'' (Rom. 2:29). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:08, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::Oh, and there is no "going forth unto the nations" if you don't know what the gospel of '''salvation''' by grace is. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:12, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::''The flesh profiteth nothing''. Let me be more specific - baptism in the flesh profiteth nothing. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:04, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

== Regenerative '''salvation''' by water and the Spirit: water baptism '''saves''' ==

Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary of what the word of God says ([[Infant baptism|''see the article'']]):
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*Baptism '''saves''' you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
*Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
*There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
*Jesus '''saves''' us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
*With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
*The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
*Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
*Be baptized. The promise of '''salvation''' is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
*Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
*Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
*God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
*We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
*To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
*A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]

*Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
*He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47] ''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism '''saves''' us now, by water and the blood.''
*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
''The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.'' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:25, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

:*''That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit''
:*''God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth''
:*''they that are in the flesh cannot please God.''
:Water baptism is of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

::No, it is not. It is of God. The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. Christian baptism is not of the flesh. It was established by Jesus Himself as necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Christian water baptism is the work of God who baptizes ''with'' water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone devoid of the sanctifying Spirit of God is not Christian baptism. By the regeneration ('''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'') of baptism of water and the Spirit a person is enabled by the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth and given the [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A10 power to please God].
::*[http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm Except a person be regenerated by water '''and''' the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were '''justified''' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19].
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13]
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27]
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, <nowiki>[God]</nowiki> made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been '''saved'''). Ephesians 2:5]. ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for '''salvation''', expressed by man.])
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
::According to the Bible Christian Baptism is a divinely ordained union of the operation "of water and the Spirit" together in God by the blood of Christ [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 who alone sanctifies us, having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word]. Christian Baptism is not a water ritual empty of the Spirit and totally separated from the blood of Christ. Food itself is made holy by prayer [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Timothy%204%3A5 1 Timothy 4:5]. So [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Timothy%204%3A5 water is made holy with the word]. To speak of Christian Baptism as if it is merely a symbolic ritual of the flesh alone, utterly devoid of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit Himself directly applying the saving blood of Christ to the soul, is not to speak of Christian Baptism at all.

::"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." True. God also is material flesh incarnate—"And you...he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven"–for "the word became flesh and dwelt among us", the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon him at baptism, and we have an altar from which those who serve the Jewish Tabernacle have no right to eat. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:21-23; John 1:14; Hebrews 13:10.)

::The belief that God can not, does not, will not work his grace of '''salvation''' through the instrument of material water in union with the spiritual word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit is similar to the doctrine of [[Docetism]] which held that the purity of God the Word, the Son of the Father, could not personally defile himself by becoming incarnate human flesh, because it is impossible that pure spirit can ever interact with impure matter, "having flesh and bones". His appearance was only a symbolic vision, not the personal reality of Himself, so that it was impossible that Jesus could really shed his blood, die on the cross, be dead, and actually rise from the dead. God has no need whatever for any material means of effecting '''salvation'''. John refuted this in the first words of his Gospel (John 1:1-18). Credobaptism absolutely denies, repudiates and condemns the claim that God ever would or ever could work '''salvation''' directly through any kind of proper material ministry of Christian Baptism by water and the Spirit, which he himself ordained in John 3:3-5 and Matthew 28:19-20 [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|''ex opere operato'']]. God waits helplessly for man to open the door of his heart by faith so that the Lord might come in to him. The doctrine of '''salvation''' by faith alone is totally dependent on the willing cooperation of man who must first know and understand and believe before God can '''save''' him. Infants cannot do that. By this reasoning '''salvation''' by faith ''is'' a work of man, and baptism is not the cause of spiritual regeneration because it is only a legal [[ordinance]] of water without the power of the Spirit.

::Consistently, ''on the basis of sacred scripture, and because of scripture'', the catholic and orthodox Christian Church east and west has condemned as a [[heresy]] the doctrine that baptism has no power from God, that Jesus did not establish the sacrament of baptism as the ordinary means of '''salvation''' by water and the Spirit, and that '''salvation''' is ''[[sola fide]]'' without any need for [[Corporal and spiritual works of mercy|works of mercy]], condemning also as a heresy the doctrine that eternal life once received by faith alone cannot be lost, rescinded, revoked, or forfeited by sin and [[apostasy]], the doctrine of [[Eternal security (salvation)|eternal security]].

::This entire Talk page, and the debate represented on it by myself and RobS above, is to my thinking an excellent companion article to [[Infant baptism]]. RobS has vigorously argued and persistently defended the doctrine of credobaptism and '''salvation ''[[sola fide]]'''''. I count it a privilege to have contributed as clearly as possible without misrepresentation or distortion the Catholic doctrine of regenerative baptism unto everlasting life by the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ alone, by reasoning based on the Bible. To all who read this page, thank you, and may God richly bless you and guide you into the fullness of truth. Amen. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 04:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

===Were any Old Testament figures '''saved''' by grace or baptism?===
:::1 Cor. 10:4 ''all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.''
:::Exodus 33: ''And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for '''thou hast found grace in my sight'''''
:::''Behold, '''there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock''''' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

:Next question: ''Was Job '''saved'''? Were Zachariah and Elisabeth '''saved'''? Were Simeon and Anna (Luke 2) '''saved'''? Was David '''saved'''? and Solomon (relates to the question of Eternal security, as well)? And a real tuff one, was Manassah '''saved'''?
:We know Abraham was '''saved''' (Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3) '''''long''''' before there ever was a Law of Moses or doctrine of baptisms. We know righteous Abel was '''saved''', as well, because he understood the necessity of a blood sacrifice.
:So the gospel of '''salvation''' by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures. But we see some could not enter in, because of disbelief (lack of faith).
:The Law (or "the letter") killeth. Grace gives life. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 14:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

::"''So the gospel of '''salvation''' by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures.''" You say they were already '''saved''' before any of this took place. Either you have done away with the need for Christ by the credobaptist doctrine of '''salvation''' by faith alone ''sola fide'', or you have confirmed the doctrine of "baptism of desire" by which all those "spirits in prison" were freed by the preaching of Christ himself because of their hope which waited (they were forced to wait) for his baptism of them in fulfillment of their desire for '''salvation''' 1 Peter 3:18-21. ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', '''1260'''
:::"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be '''saved'''. It may be supposed that such persons would have ''desired Baptism explicitly'' if they had known its necessity."
::Hebrews 11:39-40 says most explicitly,
:::"And all these, though well attested by their faith, '''did not receive what was promised''', since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us '''they should not be made perfect'''.
::They had to wait, because they had not yet been '''saved''' by the blood of Jesus Christ and had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::Was Abraham '''saved'''?
::::Rom 4: ''1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
::::''2 For if Abraham were '''justified''' by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
::::''3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc.
::::Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::'''I did cite scripture.''' My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, ''solidly based on scripture'' (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. [[Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts]]. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the [[sensus fidelium]], [[sensus plenior]], [[sensus Christianorum]] in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::You haven't answered the question: ''Was Abraham '''saved'''?'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

====What have we learned from our father, Abraham?====
Abraham was instructed to take his son, '''''thine only son''''', and kill him. Not wavering in faith, Abraham never doubted that God would resurrect him somehow to fulfill God's promise to multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the sky. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (or imputed) unto him as righteousness.

:Rom 5: 1 ''Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
:2 ''through whom also we have the '''access by the faith into this grace''' in which we have stood''

Where was Abraham ever baptized? before the law of baptisms was ever was given (Leviticus, and elsewhere)? Abraham was circumcised, but circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:39, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

:I see you've avoided answering this key New Testament question (Romans chapter 4 and Galatians) now for 4 days. Here's the Answer:
:''Abraham was '''saved''' by belief (faith) in the resurrection. He was '''justified''' by his faith, and '''saved''' from wrath, and '''saved''' from the works of the Law. Abraham was a blood washed, born again Christian. '' We also now by faith have access into this same grace.
:Maybe now you can understand the verses referring to ''before the foundations of the earth were laid'', or ''In the beginning was the word''. or ''from everlasting to everlasting'', or ''I am Alpha and Omega'', or ''predestined and foreordained'', or ''there is no new thing under the sun''.

:Do not avoid this question - it is foundational to any man of faith.

:Faith is quite simple - it is trust. Trust in God. Trust in God's word. Trust in God over our own understanding and reasoned judgements.

:To rely on ourselves, rather than accept God, God's word, and God's teaching, is pride - what St. Valentine and the Catholic church call original sin. It was the sin of Lucifer - making himself out to be God. It was the sin of Adam - rejecting God to ''worship and serve the creature more than the Creator''. It is the sin of everyone who rejects the Gospel of Grace in favor of a doctrine of Law, that by welldoing you can earn your standing with God. God see's rejection of the sacrifice of his son as pride. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 08:14, 3 November 2019 (EST)

===Exodus chapter 33===
:::1 Cor. 10:4 ''all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.''
:::Exodus 33: ''And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for '''thou hast found grace in my sight'''''
:::''Behold, '''there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock''''' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the [[Beatific vision]]. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come. In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/5-4.htm Deuteronomy 5:4 "The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire."] Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ".
:::::That's your response?
:::::*Mark 7:13 ''Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::He said, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." It is you who make the word of God of no effect through your credobaptist tradition. That is why credobaptists in the sixteenth century were condemned by Protestants and Catholics for abuse of the scriptures. Documented ''[[anathema]]s'' against credobaptism go all the way back to the 3rd century. And Protestants agreed.

::::::Conservative Christian historians and [[Christian apologetics|apologists]] are mindful of this statement by [[John Eck]] addressed to [[Martin Luther]], in the year 1521:<ref>Eck's statement here is supremely appropriate in light of Luther's refusal to submit to the judgment of the Church, the emperor Charles V, and the [[Pope]], and the teaching of Paul in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13:1-5&version=KJV Romans 13:1-5].</ref><blockquote>
::::::"...there is no one of the [[Heresy|heresies]] which have torn the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from the various interpretation of the Scripture. The Bible itself is the arsenal whence each innovator has drawn his [[ Specious reasoning|deceptive arguments]]. It was with biblical texts that [[Pelagianism|Pelagius]] and [[Arius]] maintained their doctrines. Arius, for instance, found the negation of the eternity of the Word—an eternity which you admit, in this verse of the New Testament—''Joseph knew not his wife till she had brought forth her first-born son''; and he said, in the same way that you say, that this passage '''enchained''' him. When the fathers of the [[council of Constance]] condemned this proposition of [[John Huss]]—''The church of Jesus Christ is only the community of the elect'', they condemned an error; for the church, like a good mother, embraces within her arms all who bear the name of Christian, all who are called to enjoy the celestial beatitude."<ref>{{cite web|url=http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/lutherbyluther.html#secondnarrative|title=Life of Luther (Luther by Martin Luther)|author=Martin Luther|publisher=}}</ref>
</blockquote>

::::::(Compare the article on [[Hypocrites]].) --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::Did God speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend (Martin Luther has nothing to do with this question). The answer is a simple 'yes' or 'no'.
:::::::The next question is: Are there contradictions in the bible? Is the bible inviolate? (Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you. Your response is entirely dependent on your faith). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:11, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

::::::::The Pentecostal article below is a rebuttal of your position, and is presented here as my response. Jesus '''saved''' many people without their faith. That includes babies, Old Testament saints, and all pagans who never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, who ''would have accepted baptism by water and the Spirit'' if they had known of its necessity.

::::::::"''Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you.''" Devout scholars, church teaching, and church tradition do help. But you refuse to accept it (John 10:25-26). Your refusal is a clear example of classic [[Confirmation bias]]. All of the centuries-old consistent understanding of the Bible by all of Christendom ''based on the Bible'' is held in contempt by you. Even when presented with an abundance of scripture alone which demolishes the house of credobaptist doctrine as clearly opposed to the Bible, you reject it. [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2023%3A38 Matthew 23:38]. I had thought that you were a person of honest Christian integrity dedicated to the truth of the Bible. From the way you worded some of your answers I believe that you actually refused ''on principle'' to read the authoritative Bible texts and sources linked for immediate access which contradict credobaptism. Look at the article on [[Enmity]]. Some of the people who read this page when I showed it to them said you were being sarcastic, and are someone who always has to have the "last word" no matter what is said. They told me I was wasting all my time and energy on this page in a pointless exercise of unending futility. They said if you ever change your mind, it won't be because of me. They said just leave it to the Lord and he will deal with you. I have been patient with you, and firm. I am also grateful. Because of your challenges I have carefully re-read the Bible like the long-ago Beroeans of [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2017%3A11 Acts 17:11], and the fruit of all this is that I have gained a much deeper insight to what it was like for Jesus to debate with the scribes and Sadducees and Pharisees who refused to listen to him even when he cited the scriptures. And I have an even deeper and more loving appreciation of Him as a true man, both fully human and fully God. The result of this research was the abundance of Bible texts cited in context all down this page which clearly support the doctrine of regenerative baptism against credobaptism "'''salvation''' by faith alone ''[[sola fide]]''". I had constant recourse to the help of [[Strong's|Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with its Hebrew and Greek dictionaries of the Old and New Testaments]]. I will have no more to do with you, as Paul advised [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A10 Titus 3:10]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:17, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::So, I'm taking your response to mean (a) the bible has contradictions, and (b) the bible ''is not'' inviolate.
:::::::::Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
:::::::::I never once used the term "credobaptism". The word does not appear anywhere in the bible, as I understand and/or are familiar with it (look it up in ''Strong's'' if you don't believe me). It is entirely your invention in this discussion. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:43, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Lastly, your posting below is simply more church doctrine from somewhere irrelevant to this discussion. Spamming the page has not helped any of your arguments; it's more reminiscent of Christ's warnings about other Pharisaical teachings: '' they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::'[https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/5-37.htm Let your answers be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.]' (Matt 5:37) - affirming what is, and what is not, the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::One final comment: God is not an intellectual exercise.
::::::::::*''He catcheth the crafty in their craftiness''
::::::::::*''I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to '''save''' them that believe.''
::::::::::I learned from Catholic catechism that 7 years of age is the "age of reason;" by 10 I had it figured out and left the church. God's teaching must be simple enough for a child to understand.
::::::::::I can appreciate the teaching of the Catholic church. At the age of 8, as an altar boy, I recall a high mass on Easter Sunday, where me, the priest, and 3 other altar boys sat down at the beginning of the mass. I wanted to rise up and perform the service, but the priest signaled to me to remain seated. The Gospel reading that day was from Hebrews, chapter 10:12 stood out to emphasize the point and symbolism: ''"when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down"''. All else is extraneous. ''For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.'' (Heb 4:10). ''"It is finished'' (John 19:39). I'm grateful to the Catholic church for having taught me God's word, but all the calisthenics and hand-washing is extraneous. The message is simple. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:45, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

Back to Exodus 33 (I love this chapter). So, what is the Gospel? Again, it must be simple enough for a child to understand. For expedience sake, I'm going to thumbnail and encapsulate it in John 15:13: ''Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends''

Disclaimer: we all know it's much more but for expedience sake I'm using this verse.

Now, we have to back up momentarily to Exodus 32 (verse 10-32 for complete context). Verse 31-32 Moses says ''Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.''

This is the Spirit of Christ speaking. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

==="The Church cannot save" is not in the Bible; "Baptism does not save" is not in the Bible; "Born again by faith" is not in the Bible===
*There are 80 listings in [[Strong's]] under CHURCH [http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm '''έκκλησία''' ''ekklesia'']. There is in the New Testament of the Bible no direct statement in any form anywhere that explicitly states that the Church cannot '''save''' (you, anyone), that '''salvation''' is not in the Church, or that membership in the Church cannot '''save''' (you, anyone). A search online at [http://biblehub.com/topical/c/church.htm '''Topical Bible: church'''] and [https://biblehub.com/topical/naves/c/church--membership_in.htm '''Topical Bible: Church: Membership In'''] does not produce any passages under the key words "church" or "church membership" that teach any form of the doctrine that the Church cannot '''save''', as repeatedly and persistently asserted here on this page. You won't find it. I've looked. Look at [https://www.openbible.info/topics/church_membership '''100 Bible Verses about Church Membership''']. It may be that what is meant in reality by the assertion that membership in a church cannot '''save''' is that church membership alone cannot guarantee '''salvation'''. The Catholic Church agrees. According to Catholic doctrine it is possible to lose the saving grace of one's baptismal '''salvation''' through loss of faith or by falling away from Christ into [[apostasy]] away from the body of the Church, which is his body, the temple of the Spirit. But it can be restored, through the [[Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation]] (Confession) to a member of the Church having the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-20).

:Cite chapter and verse in the New Testament that says explicitly that "no church can '''save'''" or that "'''salvation''' is not from the church" or "'''salvation''' is not found in the church (any church)" or that "the church cannot '''save''' you" (''and never did'') or that "church membership cannot '''save'''" (you, anyone). The passage must have the word "church" as used frequently in denials of its necessity for '''salvation''' on this page.

*There are 22 listings in Strong's under BAPTISM [http://biblehub.com/greek/908.htm '''βάπτισμα''' ''baptisma'']. There is in the New Testament of the Bible no direct statement in any form anywhere that explicitly states that Baptism does not or cannot '''save''' (you, anyone). A search online at [http://biblehub.com/topical/b/baptism.htm '''Topical Bible: baptism'''] and [http://biblehub.com/topical/w/water_baptism.htm '''Topical Bible: water baptism'''] does not produce any passages under the key words "baptism" or "water baptism" that teach any form of the doctrine that baptism does not regenerate and does not '''save''' (us, you, anyone) now, as repeatedly and persistently asserted here on this page. You won't find it. I've looked. Look at [https://www.openbible.info/topics/baptism '''100 Bible Verses about Baptism'''] and [https://www.openbible.info/topics/unsaved '''100 Bible Verses about Unsaved'''].

:Cite chapter and verse in the New Testament that says explicitly that "baptism does not '''save'''" (us, you, anyone) "now" or that "baptism cannot '''save''' you" (us, anyone) ''and never has, and never did'' or that "'''salvation''' is not through baptism" or that " membership in the body of Christ by baptism into Christ cannot '''save'''" (us, you, anyone) or that "baptism is not for infants and babies" or that "babies should not be baptized until they can confess faith in Jesus". The passage must have the key word "baptism" as used frequently in denials of its necessity for '''salvation''' on this page, and in the case of babies "infant baptism" or "baptized infants" together with the key words "must not", "cannot", "forbidden", "false", "unnecessary".

*The phrase "''born again by faith in the word of God''", "''born again by faith in the Lord''", "''born again by faith''", is not found in the New Testament. Look at [https://www.openbible.info/topics/being_born_again_ '''100 Bible Verses about Being Born Again''' (openbible.info)]. Being '''saved''' by faith is proclaimed. Being born of God is proclaimed. Being born by the washing of regeneration is proclaimed. Being '''saved''' by the blood of Christ is proclaimed. But no passage of scripture has the explicit phrase "born by faith" or "born again by faith". The term "born again" is not found together with the term "faith" in any text of the Bible. The term "born again" is not found together with the term "'''saved'''" in any passage of the Bible.

*See the main page of this article under '''"Regenerate" in John 3:3-5: Greek <big>γεννηθή</big> ''gennethe'''''. The Greek text of the New Testament itself teaches ''regenerative baptism'', which has been absolutely denied on this page by the frequent and persistent assertion that baptism is unnecessary for '''salvation''' and does not '''save''' because it opposes '''salvation''' by faith alone ''sola fide''. The plain and obvious reality of '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe'' as spiritual regeneration of the soul from death to life is directly asserted as truth without any recourse to Church doctrine or tradition or academic scholarship and exegesis. It's solely what the Bible says, plain and simple. See the [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-3.htm interlinear text of John 3:3] and [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-4.htm John 3:4] and [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5]. Anyone who says Jesus is wrong, by actually saying '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe'' by water and the Spirit is not regeneration unto life, opposes the word of the Lord. Whether knowingly or unknowingly doing so makes no difference. It is a [[falsehood]]. Denial contradicts the Bible and puts no faith in Jesus' word as truth. That alone condemns ''as not of God'' the point of view that "the washing of water with the word" Ephesians 5:26, baptism with water consecrated by the word of God, can not, does not, never has, and never will '''save''' by regeneration unto eternal life, by joining the baptized to the very body of Jesus Christ himself as a living member of his body in whom is no sin.

*Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not '''save''', baptism cannot '''save'''", "the Church does not '''save''', the Church cannot '''save'''", and "membership in the Church does not '''save'''", or that "membership in the Church eternally assures '''salvation'''" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects)—''Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "'''save'''", "'''salvation'''"''. Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "''born again by faith.''" (You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. It can't be found. It's not in the Bible.)

:If you cannot find such passages in the Bible to support the assertions made here about '''salvation''' by faith alone—'''''salvation''' without the necessity of baptismal rebirth by water and the Spirit with the word of God and "'''working''' out your own '''salvation'''" by sustaining [[Corporal and spiritual works of mercy]]'' (Philippians 2:12-13; Ephesians 2:8-10)—if you cannot find such passages in the Bible, then it is undeniable proof that the doctrine you have been defending here on this page is not of God. It's not in the Bible. If not, then it either comes from the flesh alone, or from some other place, not from God. In any case it absolutely opposes the truth of the Gospel of '''salvation''' through '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe'' regeneration by water and the Spirit with the word of God and is rightly condemned as a false gospel teaching "another Jesus" qualifying for Paul's ''anathema. Maranatha'' (2 Corinthians 11:4; 1 Corinthians 16:22). It is a rejection of the obedience that Jesus commanded in Matthew 18:15-20, the obedience of faith in the Church he built, his body and the temple of the Holy Spirit, the church gathered in the name of the Lord. [https://biblegateway.com/James%205%3A20.htm '''James 5:20'''.]

:--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

::More spam. Answer a simple question: Was Abraham '''saved'''? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 23:48, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

:::I have a problem with this mode of argument. Some people don't know that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. But to say so in isolation of the fact that the doctrine is at least ''discussed'' in the Bible would be captious to say the least toward a learning audience.

:::The words "nature" and "procession" are in the Bible, but not "procession of nature". Are we to assume that if the Trinity doctrine is that the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father not just in name, nor as creation that it's somehow embarrassing that "procession of nature" "is not in the Bible."? That's what your mode of argument suggests. [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Saturday, 16:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::'Trinity' is what you call a teaching aid. Some call it a doctrine. I prefer to call it an 'aspect' of God. Calling it a doctrine can create more problems than it's worth. But I'm sure I'll get arguments in Christian circles. OTOH, Abu Musab Zarqawi's group was called the Group for Monotheism and Jihad, and they refer to Christians and messianic Shiites as polytheists. So I think my POV is still a ways off for mainstream Christian churches to stop teaching non-biblical doctrines, which they won't until the beheaders are at the door.
::::Trust the Word. It's self explanatory. It doesn't need these short-cut mechanisms to give people an excuse to ignore reading the Word. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:09, 3 November 2019 (EDT)

{{reflist}}

== Let Us Reason Ministries - a Pentecostal refutation of ''[[sola fide]]'' - "Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith?" ==

''Introduction to Pentecostal article reproduced below''
:: – The article below is an outstanding response to the credobaptist doctrine of "believer's baptism" as the only way of '''salvation'''. We ourselves in our own helpless weakness do not even know how to pray, like helpless infants in their weakness who have no faith (see [[Helpless babies and sinners]]). We are all like newborn babies who need the Holy Spirit to [[Intercession|'''intercede''']] for us in the regenerative baptism of water and the Spirit unto new life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%208%3A26 "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit intercedes for us with sighs and groanings too deep for words."]

The following Pentecostal article is here [http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp239.htm '''quoted in full''' from '''Let Us Reason Ministries''' (letusreason.org)] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:34, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

::;<big>Let Us Reason Ministries</big>
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<big>'''Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith?'''</big>

We hear many teach that every time Jesus healed a person he said "According to YOUR faith, be it unto you," as if God always waits to enact His miraculous power by our faith. But this is not accurate, and one simply has to read all the Scriptures on healing and not focus on certain ones to understand this.

I believe in God's supernatural healing , Our God is one who does miracles. Today we hear that it only takes faith for the Lord to answer our prayer.What If one is not healed by faith, does it means they are a failure, because they did not exercise the faith that God needed in order to react. Jesus When Jesus was physically on earth he healed everyone that asked Him, But he also healed those who did not ask Him.

Luke 6:19: “And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.”

Luke 9:11: “But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.”

Yet when we look carefully Jesus healed as many people that had no faith, than did. Sometimes he required faith, other times he did not. They were healed by His grace and mercy because of His love and most importantly to show the people who He is. Matt 14:14 :“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.”

So many brought friends and loved ones out to be healed. Matt 15:30:: “Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus' feet, and He healed them.”

Healings were done in numerous ways. There were times Jesus responded to the faith of another person who asked on behalf of the one who needed healing.

Matt. 8:5-10 It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed.

Mk.5:35-43 The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith and asking.

The paralytic was carried by his friends to Jesus and “When Jesus saw their faith” (for their friend) He pronounced his sins forgiven first and then healed him (Mark 2:2-12).

Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 lepers but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith.

Jesus healed people from the ultimate sickness of sin, death. In Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith that raised himself, he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe he was their Messiah (also Lk. 8:54).
Other examples are in John 18:10, when Peter cut of the ear of Malchus, Jesus healed him without any faith from anyone.

Lk.8:26-39 The demoniac of Gadarene was healed without asking before he was capable of expressing his faith.

The Bible records Jesus doing just as many miracles without anyone exercising faith then with their faith. Jesus performed miracles with disbelief among the disciples.

Of the 35 miracles recorded in the Gospel accounts the faith of the recipient is exercised in only 10 of the accounts. Healing of the lame man (Jn.5:1-9) the cleansing of a leper (Mt.8:2-4) healing a mans withered hand (Mt.9:2-8) the healing of the man born blind (Jn.9:1-7) healing the blindness of Bartemaeus (Mt.20:29-34) The women who had a blood flow (Mt.9:20-22; Mk.5:24-34) Peter who walked on water to Jesus (Mt.14:24-33) the miraculous catching of the fish (Lk.5:1-11) and the second miraculous catch (Jn.21:1-11) The cleansing of the 10 lepers of which only one had faith (Lk.17:11-19).

Jesus did not indiscriminately heal ALL the people ALL of the time, but It was those God willed to be healed that were healed.

While he required faith for some he did not require it for all. In John 5:1-15: (v.3) multitudes were gathered at the pool of Bethsaida to be healed, Jesus did not call everyone forward, He picked only one person to be healed, a blind and lame man. Jesus initiated a conversation and asked the man at the pool of Bethsaida if he wanted to be made well. His answer was that there was no one to carry him to the pool, believing that if he entered the water he would be healed. The man with the infirmity was healed by God’s grace. He had no faith in Jesus; he didn’t even know it was Jesus who healed him until later (v.12-13).

In John 9 we find a blind man who did not ask to be healed, but was picked to be healed out of many others. This also was God’s grace. When Jesus saw the man blind from birth responding to His disciples’ inquiry, He healed him without his asking. It was not about their faith as much as it is about His will. Everyone Jesus WILLED to be healed was healed, 100%. This is the basis for a healing from a biblical frame of reference. He did not only heal those who had faith, He often picked those who had no faith.

Matt 13:13-15: "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'

Because they did not understand Jesus did not heal them. What did they not understand? His teaching and who He was, they did not repent.

True supernatural healings do not always require faith it’s bestowed in mercy by the providence of God. The healings that are from God are always 100% successful, without any relapses, and are almost always immediate. False and psychological healings require physical contact, they can have relapses, and do not heal organic disorders and are not usually immediate. “Faith healers” claim you must keep your faith for your healing or the devil will come and steal it. Nowhere are God's healings spoken of in this way. Real miracles are under God's control with or without the use of man; false miracles always come by mans hands, and are done by their own dictates.

The Bible records Jesus doing many miracles in the absence of anyone exercising faith than with faith present. This is very significant considering the current teaching of faith being necessary for ones healing.

The Apostles healing ministry

After Jesus physically left earth and the apostles were leaders of the church, they were commissioned with the gospel and authority to do as Jesus did.

Acts 3:2-6: “And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us." So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

The man at the Gate beautiful was not seeking healing but money, he had no faith. John and Peter might of walked by this man a number of times to the temple but on this certain day they were moved to raise him up from his sick bed.

Miracles through the apostles became widespread outside of Israel to the Gentiles.

In 1 Timothy 5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. Lack of Faith was not the problem. 2 Timothy 4:20 says: “Trophemus I left in Miletus sick.” Trophemus a companion of Paul was left as Paul went on ministering, he did not encourage him to have faith to be healed. In Philippians 2:26, 30 mentions Epaphroditus as a devoted servant of the Lord; he became sick and stayed that way for some time and almost died. We see their prayers were answered by God’s will and in his timing. All Christians should pray for God to heal when it is needed.

In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 Paul had a thorn in the flesh In Vv.9-10 Paul laments “Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” God denied Paul to be healed for a reason. So to say everyone must be healed because of what Jesus did on the cross is wrong, the gospel is primarily about forgiveness of sin.

There is now a teaching inside the church that our cup of communion heals. Jesus said “This is My blood...which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). Notice He said for sin. This is an ordinance that physically is to remind us of the actual crucifixion event. We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from. Now the question arises: “since sickness is from sin,” if our sin is forgiven we should not be sick? The Bible does not teach we have or can obtain sinless perfection in this life, so why should we think we would be free of sicknesses? Even death is from sin -- if we believe communion heals absolutely then those who take it would never physically die. We die because we are not cured physically from our sickness of sin until the day of resurrection.

We are currently forgiven and cleansed by the blood in a legal sense but not in a completed physical sense. This is reserved for the day of our resurrection when corruptible will become incorruptible. It is only then sin will be dealt the deathblow and we will live forever in an immortal physical body. We are presently clothed in Christ’s righteousness because we have faith in him who fulfilled the law, and is our substitute. One day we will personally be made righteous and what He accomplished will be fully applied to our body, not just our spirit. Rom.8:15 we live in a fallen world until the time of restoration. When one teaches all must be healed now they must ignore the context of the greater portion of Scripture. The faith teachers are not dividing the word correctly. They teach by faith we can today obtain everything scripture says. They apply blessings what will only take place millennial to us now.

Divine health so that you are never to be sick is not the teaching of Scripture; it is divine healing that is taught, it is in God’s hand when and how one would be healed. Real faith trusts him, is patient and perserveres.

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::What can I say? Someone, I don't know who, has '''salvation''' confused with physical healing. Oh boy, talk about the road of deception.... [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 21:29, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::You didn't read it. It says
::::We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” '''It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from.'''
:::--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:35, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
::::So? I don't quite follow how you connect the dots between this being either some affirmation or refutation of something or other. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:14, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::.....Still waiting to hear how you are going to connect the dots between Jesus' healing miracles and infant baptism.... [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:30, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::"Attention all hands: ''Now hear this!''" "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world." 1 John 4:16. "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven." John 20:23. "I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mt 16:18-19 "if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:17b-18 "Be subject to every human institution" 1 Peter 2:13. "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." Romans 13:1-3. "So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15. "Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17. "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9. "Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:18-19 "And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you '''for ever''', even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you." John 14:16-17 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:12-14]. I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures above and based on the Bible I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. It was the only Church not founded by people who disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left. It is the authoritative binding doctrine of the established ''Christian Church'' that has always connected the dots between Jesus' healing miracles and infant baptism and teaches to this day that "Baptism … now '''saves''' you" 1 Peter 3:21. I accept the doctrine and interpretation of the established binding authority of the [[apostolic tradition]] of the Christian Church in connecting them. Read the new Section below. "The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism - Connecting the Dots between '''salvation''' and infant baptism - Protestant and Catholic" --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 07:57, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I think you nailed it right there, which you've said twice now. Are you accepting Christ's teaching or Church teaching? Are you looking to Christ for '''salvation''' or membership in a body? Sorry to dig in so personal, but churches, church membership, and church teaching do not '''save'''. Only Christ '''saves'''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:38, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::::Both. Christ's teaching is Church Teaching, and Church Teaching is Christ's Teaching. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::It takes faith to make a statement like that - faith in the church, not faith in God.[[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 10:11, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::::Where does the Bible say that the Church does not '''save'''? --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:50, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::Numerous places. Now most people would begin with Acts 4:12, or reiterate over and over again, ''Only Jesus Only Jesus''. but I'm going to ask, were any of the 7 Churches in Asia in the Book of Revelation made whole and complete, as the scripture promised? Secondly, Look at yourself - by your very question you are asking if '''salvation''' can be found in man, and not in Christ. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 10:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)

===Gal 1:6-9===
:*''I am astonished that '''you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ''' and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.''
:::So, you appear to be deserting the gospel of grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 11:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

::::By grace are ye '''saved''', through faith, not of works.

::::If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

It ain't rocket science, and spamming the page to hide your embarrassment don't help. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:01, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

:Like Paul, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures I have cited above, and based on the Bible alone ''sola scriptura'', I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. "Catholic" means universal, for all people of all places in every time to the day of judgment. It was the only Church not founded by people who had disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left, and denied that the Holy Spirit had remained for ever with the leadership of that Church, saying that Christ who remained to the end of the world had not remained, saying that He had departed and was no longer with that Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself as His Bride, remaining with her to the end of the world as the vessel and channel of the grace of God given to the whole world as the body of Christ Himself, sent as He was sent, as the Savior of the world, baptizing. The Church is the "Temple of the Spirit", "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (1 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). "He cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13). ''To depart from the Church is deserting the gospel of grace.'' The grace of '''salvation''' comes from Christ alone through the Catholic Church he founded and sent out into the whole world as "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10). --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 12:44, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::If you have to work to earn grace, it ain't grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 13:05, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::Church membership is not '''salvation'''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 13:09, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:::Grace is bestowed by Christ through his body the Church and those baptized into him are '''saved'''. The Catholic Church '''saves''' as the one sent by God. The Church '''saves''' because Jesus is God in her as her head and the Holy Spirit dwells in her as the temple of God and it is he who sanctifies her and is the source of '''salvation''', because God is in her at work in her members as members of the body of Christ himself, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:12, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::::Look, spamming the page with pious sounding rhetoric '''saves''' no one. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 13:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::::The church '''saves'''? I don't think even Catholic doctrine teaches that. You're bordering on speaking anathema. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 13:21, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::Catholic doctrine "teaches that" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 836-837. '''836''' "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to '''salvation'''." '''837''' "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of '''salvation''' given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not '''saved'''. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"

:::::You clearly don't know what you're talking about. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::I clearly have the power of discernment - of separating the Word of God from the doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 14:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::Amputating a few words from Philippians doesn't help you.

::::Let's look at the context from which you abuse Phillipians:
::::*''5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus''

::::We already discussed what it means to ''have the mind of Christ'' - that part you left out. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

== The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism - Connecting the Dots between '''salvation''' and infant baptism - Protestant and Catholic ==
===The teaching of Scripture===

"When we look carefully at the teaching of Scripture, we see that the sign of the covenant was applied to infants prior to Christ, and presumably continued to be applied to them when Jesus changed it to baptism." [https://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH00/0007c.html —James W. Scott, ''The Orthodox Presbyterian Church'']

===Protestant===
'''''Article by James W. Scott''''' Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC)
'''The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism'''

Many evangelical, Bible-believing Christians believe that baptism should be reserved for those who make a profession of faith. They point to the clear teaching in the Bible that converts should be baptized (see, for example, Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:37–38; 8:12; 18:8). The baptism warranted in the Bible by precept and example, they say, is believer’s baptism.

But wait a minute! The ordinary practice in baptistic churches has no more direct biblical support than the practice in churches that baptize infants. In both groups of churches, those who are converted from outside the church are baptized as new believers. That kind of “believers’ baptism” is not at issue. What is at issue is what to do with those who are born and raised within the church. Should they be baptized as infants or should their baptism be withheld until they make their own profession of faith?

Neither practice has explicit biblical support. There is no example of anyone born to Christian parents being baptized in the New Testament at any age, and no precept addresses their specific situation. The time and circumstances that are appropriate for baptizing such children must be inferred from general biblical teaching concerning baptism.

Let us once and for all disabuse ourselves of the notion that what goes on in baptistic churches has direct biblical warrant. It is only inferred from Scripture, as is our practice. (The question of immersion—the “mode” of baptism—is treated in an earlier article and will not be discussed here, though it is equally important in baptistic thinking.)

===='''The Baptistic View of Baptism'''====

Those who advocate believer’s baptism insist that infant baptism is not baptism at all (even if the infant is immersed). This is because they have a different understanding of baptism. In their view, baptism is principally a testimony given by the person baptized, first in word and then symbolically in water. Since an infant cannot give a testimony, a genuine infant baptism is an impossibility.
However, the Bible nowhere portrays baptism as the testimony of the person baptized. Passages that link faith to baptism (such as Acts 8:12; 18:8) simply show that faith, publicly professed, is a necessary condition for baptism. Indeed, it is appropriate to include a statement of faith in the baptismal ceremony. However, a baptism itself (the application of water, with accompanying words) is a statement by God (through the church) to and about the person being baptized, not a statement by that person. The person baptized is the recipient of baptism from a minister of Jesus Christ, acting in his name (Matt. 28:18–20; cf. Acts 2:37–42; 8:16; 35–38).

Once we recognize that faith is a condition for baptism, and that baptism itself is not a demonstration of faith by the person baptized, the question can be asked, Whose faith is required? As we look now at the relevant biblical teaching, we will see that the faith of parents fully suffices for the baptism of their children.

===='''Baptism and Discipleship'''====

When Jesus instituted Christian baptism, he instructed his disciples to “make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them ... [and] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you” (Matt. 28:19–20). Baptism, then, begins the discipling process, which continues throughout one’s life. Everyone recognizes that the children of believers should be taught to observe the commandments of Jesus (see Eph. 6:1–3, 4). But this passage indicates that they should be baptized first.

On the Day of Pentecost, those who were converted by the preaching of Peter “were baptized; and there were added [to the church] that day about three thousand souls” (Acts 2:41). They then received instruction “in the apostles’ teaching” and participated fully in the life of the church (vs. 42). Again we see that baptism marks one’s entrance into the church, into the fellowship of the saints. But what about the children of these converts? Were they baptized and included in the church fellowship? Baptists want to leave children unbaptized but include them in the life of the church, but that is not the biblical pattern.

===='''Children of Abraham'''====

In order to understand the proper place of children in the church, it is necessary to understand that the church consists of those who have received the promise of spiritual blessing that was originally given to Abraham. The third chapter of Galatians spells this out carefully, concluding, “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:29).
This means that the covenant that God made with Abraham remains in effect today (in its “new covenant” form, of course). Otherwise, we could not be Abraham’s offspring, receiving what was promised to him and his descendants. The Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 12:1–3; 15:1–7; 17:1–14) was confirmed to his son Isaac (Gen. 26:1–5, 23–24) and his grandson Jacob (Gen. 28:10–15; cf. 48:15–16; 50:24). It continued with the nation of Israel (Ex. 2:24; 6:2–8), for whom the Law of Moses was added (as the Mosaic or “old” covenant) until the time of Christ (Gal. 3:17–19), in whom the promises given to Abraham were fulfilled (vss. 16, 22–28).

After Abraham exercised faith in God’s covenant promises (Gen. 15:6), the Lord added the rite of circumcision to the covenant arrangement (Gen. 17:9–14). He received “the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he [already] had while uncircumcised” (Rom. 4:11). Because Abraham was righteous (his sins were forgiven) as the result of his faith, he was circumcised as a sign given by God that sealed that righteousness. Physical, outward circumcision signified spiritual, inward cleansing of the heart (Ezek. 44:7; Rom. 2:28–29), a spiritual reality for Abraham and all his true, believing descendants.

Not only Abraham, but all males in his household, were to be circumcised. Henceforth, all males were to be circumcised as eight-day-old infants, throughout the generations of the covenant community (Gen. 17:12–13). Circumcision marked one’s entrance into the covenant community; without it, one was to be “cut off from his people” (vs. 14).

This was God’s way of signifying that the promises given to faithful Abraham extended also to his children (and anyone else who came under and accepted his authority). Some of those, like his son Ishmael, left the covenant community and renounced the faith of Abraham. Others in Israel’s sorry history remained in the covenant community, but did not share the faith of Abraham. A remnant, however, by the grace of God, remained faithful.

:::The Foundation of the Abrahamic Covenant is faith - ''believing that whatsoever He promised [the resurrection of Isaac] He was able to deliver''. At the end of this page you argue faith (i.e. believing that whatsoever God promises he is able to deliver) isn't necessary, only love. You're preaching bunkum. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 14:32, 3 November 2019 (EST)

===='''A New Covenant Sign'''====

Into the circumcised community was born Jesus, in whom the promise of spiritual blessing for all peoples of the world would be fulfilled (Gal. 3:8–9, 14). The line of physical descent from Abraham reached its climax in the person of Jesus (vss. 16, 19). After him, only spiritual descent mattered (vss. 7–9, 25–26). Converts would no longer be incorporated into the nation of Israel.

Consequently, a covenant sign that focused on physical descent through the male line was no longer appropriate. A new sign of the covenant was needed—one that all people, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, could receive. As we have seen, water baptism was instituted by Jesus as the new sign of entrance into the community of faith. Essentially, then, baptism replaced circumcision.

The change from circumcision to baptism is reflected in Acts 8:12, where we read that Samaritans were being baptized, “men and women alike.” There is no reason to point out that people of both genders were now receiving the sign of the covenant, except to contrast it with the old sign of the covenant. Implied in this contrast is the fact that baptism had replaced circumcision.

===='''Spiritual Circumcision'''====

There were Judaizers in the church who wanted Gentile converts to be circumcised and to follow the whole Mosaic law. But in various epistles, Paul insisted that Christians not only had nothing to gain from circumcision and Judaism, but actually had everything to lose! Writing to the Colossians, he declared that Christians were complete in Christ and should not look to Judaism or any other religion to supplement their faith (Col. 2:8–23). His statements specifically about circumcision and baptism (vss. 11–12) deserve close attention.

Christians have no need for physical circumcision, Paul indicates, because “in Him”—that is, as part of their spiritual union with Christ—they have already been “circumcised with a circumcision made without hands” (vs. 11). That is, they have already received that inward circumcision, that spiritual cleansing of the heart, that is effected by the Holy Spirit. In Romans 2:28–29, Paul refers to this as inward circumcision, “which is of the heart, by the Spirit.”

This spiritual circumcision, Paul continues, consists of “the removal of the body of the flesh” (Col. 2:11). But what is “the body of the flesh”? An important textual variant here reads “the body of the sins of the flesh” (NKJV). In either case, another contrast with circumcision is in view. Physical circumcision removes a small piece of flesh. But spiritual circumcision, figuratively speaking, removes or puts off the whole body of sinful flesh, that is, “our old self,” “our body of sin” that has been “done away with” (Rom. 6:6). When the Spirit cleanses the heart, the whole weight of sin is removed, and the sinful flesh is renounced.

This spiritual cleansing, Paul continues, is effected by “the circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:11). Since this verse has all along been speaking of the spiritual experience of the sinner, “the circumcision of Christ” must likewise be something in Christian experience, not something in the life of Jesus (i.e., his death, as baptistic writers suppose). It is the spiritual circumcising that belongs to Christ—“the circumcision done by Christ” (NIV) or simply “Christian circumcision.” The Judaizers were insisting on the physical circumcision set forth in the Law of Moses; Paul was upholding the spiritual circumcision of Christ.

Paul’s opponents might well have agreed that an inward cleansing was in order. However, they would have insisted that this be signified by physical circumcision. But Paul indicates that that is not necessary, for the Christian has already been “buried with Him” [that is, Christ] in baptism (Col. 2:12; cf. Rom. 6:4–5). Physical circumcision has nothing to add. A new sign, baptism, has been received.

Finally, Christians have been “raised up with Him through faith in the working of God” (Col. 2:12). “We have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead ... we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4). What do the Judaizers have to offer in comparison with that? We are already complete in Christ (Col. 2:10)!

It is part of the teaching of Colossians 2:11–12, then, that baptism has replaced circumcision for the covenant community. The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in the new covenant, and circumcision has been replaced by baptism as the sign and seal of the righteousness of faith.

===='''Children in the Church'''====

Under the Abrahamic covenant, those who were born within the covenant community received the sign of the covenant as infants. Because the Abrahamic covenant remains in effect, but with the sign of it having been changed, it follows that those who are born within the covenant community should be baptized as infants, just as they were formerly circumcised as infants. They should be baptized at the start of the discipling process, as outlined by Jesus.

If there are any doubts as to the “fitness” of infants to be raised as disciples of Jesus, he himself dispelled them. When children were brought to Jesus by their parents for his blessing, the disciples tried to brush them aside (Mark 10:13–16). But Jesus said, “Permit the children to come to Me ... for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” These children included babies (Luke 18:15); Jesus “took them in His arms and began blessing them” (Mark 10:16).

Some would say that Jesus welcomed them just to teach adults a lesson (see Luke 18:17). But if infants do not qualify for the kingdom of God, then how can adults qualify by being like them? There is no lesson for adults to learn unless Jesus welcomes the infants of believers into his kingdom. That kingdom, today, is essentially the church (Matt. 16:18–19). Since people are visibly received into the church by baptism, it follows that infants are to be received into the kingdom of God by baptism.

===='''Faith and Baptism'''====

As we have seen, circumcision under the Abrahamic covenant was applied to infants on the basis of parental faith (Gen. 17; Rom. 4:11). Since we today are part of that covenant through faith in Christ, the new sign of the covenant, water baptism, should likewise be applied to infants on the basis of parental faith.

That theological conclusion is confirmed by the accounts in the book of Acts which reveal that whole households were commonly baptized on the basis of the faith of the head of the household. These accounts are examined in some detail in the article “Saving Faith and Infant Baptism,” in the April 1992 issue of New Horizons, but it will be helpful to summarize the argument here.

The most detailed and informative account is that of the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:30–34). “Believe in the Lord Jesus,” he was told, “and you shall be '''saved''', you and your household” (vs. 31; cf. 11:14). Accordingly, the gospel was preached “to him together with all who were in his house” (vs. 32). In response, he “believed in God with his whole household” (vs. 34), whereupon “he was baptized, he and all his household” (vs. 33).

The key word in this passage is “with.” It signifies accompaniment. When Luke says that the jailer heard the gospel and believed with his household, the implication is that everyone in his household went along with him. Any older household members, such as his wife, evidently became believers, too. But any young children went along with their father, following his lead with whatever limited understanding that they had.

This crucial distinction between “with” and “and” (regrettably obscured by some translations) is clear in similar passages in Acts: 1:14; 3:4; 4:27; 5:1; 10:2; 14:13; 15:22; 21:5. In each case, “with” introduces those who follow the lead of others and join with them in their activity, however actively or passively. In Acts 21:5, for example, Paul is escorted to the harbor by all the men in the church at Tyre, “with wives and children,” which no doubt included a number of small infants.
In the household baptism passages, the head of the house always believes “with” his household, but he and they are baptized. Just as the heads of households escorted Paul to the harbor “with” infants who were only passive participants, so also heads of households were baptized “with” whatever infants were in their families.

Some would argue that there may not have been any infants in these households mentioned in Acts. However, household baptism was evidently a common practice in the apostolic church (see also 1 Cor. 1:16). It must have happened thousands of times, often including infants.

===='''You and Your Children'''====

Paul’s promise to the Philippian jailer, that '''salvation''' would come to his whole house if he believed in Jesus, was no different from what Peter told three thousand adult converts at Pentecost. The promise of the Holy Spirit, Peter said, was “for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself” (Acts 2:39). These converts had just been called by the Lord into fellowship with himself, and many other adults (then “far off”) would be called in the future, but the children of these converts formed a third category: they were called into fellowship with Christ together with their parents (or even merely one parent: see 1 Cor. 7:14). Such is the grace of God to the children of believers! We can only infer that the children of the first Christian converts were baptized, brought up in the Christian faith (see Eph. 6:1–4; Col. 3:20–21), and, whenever it pleased the Lord, given the Holy Spirit promised to them.

===='''Conclusion'''====

When we look carefully at the teaching of Scripture, we see that the sign of the covenant was applied to infants prior to Christ, and presumably continued to be applied to them when Jesus changed it to baptism. And when we look closely at the household baptisms described in Acts, there can be little doubt but that infants were commonly baptized in the apostolic church. They were baptized then, and they should be baptized now, on the basis of God’s promise to bless the children of believers. The faith of a parent qualifies a child to be baptized and raised as a disciple of Jesus. He welcomed them into his kingdom, and so should we.

[https://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH00/0007c.html —James W. Scott]

===Catholic===
'''''Article by Dave Armstrong'''''
'''A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura'''

===='''1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible'''====
Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic [[apostolic tradition|apostolic Tradition]] and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that. Catholics agree that Scripture is materially sufficient. In other words, on this view, every true doctrine can be found in the Bible, if only implicitly and indirectly by deduction. But no biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the formal authority or rule of faith in isolation from the Church and Tradition. Sola scriptura can’t even be deduced from implicit passages.

:::::Bingo. Right here. Jesus said ''Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.''

:::::Jesus also said, ''Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."''

:::::'''Commentary:''' There are two Gospels (one "which is no Gospel at all" as Paul says), they are a Gospel of Grace, and Gospel of Law (alternatively, "A Gospel of Works" or a "Gospel of Wrath"). Rejecting the authority of scripture (i.e., "The Word of God") turns the Gospel into a Gospel of Works (such as in Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism and host of other teachings).

:::::What does the scripture teach us? That Israel received the Gospel in the wilderness, and rejected it for a Gospel of Works (i.e., the Mosaic Law). The Law cannot '''save''' one from the wrath of God.

:::::What further does the scripture teach us? That Israel was called out of Egypt, that God called out a people unto himself, that these people were eyewitnesses to God's mighty power when they saw God destroy their enemies who were pursuing them, when God parted the sea, they witnessed the plagues of Egypt and how they were immune. In the end, they ''still'' rebelled and bowed to worship the Golden Calf.

:::::Such are those who reject the Gospel of Grace for the traditions of men and a gospel of law or works, which is no gospel at all. You cannot earn your way into God's family. I know that in me dwelleth no good thing. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. Ye must be ''spiritually'' born. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 12:18, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

===='''2. The “Word of God” Refers to Oral Teaching Also'''====
“Word” in Holy Scripture often refers to a proclaimed, oral teaching of prophets or apostles. What the prophets spoke was the word of God regardless of whether or not their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture. So for example, we read in Jeremiah:
:“For twenty-three years . . . the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again . . . ‘But you did not listen to me,’ declares the Lord. . . . Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words. . . .’” (Jer. 25:3, 7-8 [NIV]).
This was the word of God even though some of it was not recorded in writing. It had equal authority as writing or proclamation-never-reduced-to-writing. This was true also of apostolic preaching. When the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” appear in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to Scripture. For example:
:“When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thess. 2:13).

If we compare this passage with another, written to the same church, Paul appears to regard oral teaching and the word of God as synonymous:
:“Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).

===='''3. Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word'''====
Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this. But it’s not the whole truth. True [[apostolic tradition|apostolic Tradition]] also is endorsed positively. This Tradition is in total harmony with and consistent with Scripture.

===='''4. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions'''====
Protestants defending sola scriptura will claim that Jesus and Paul accepted the authority of the Old Testament. This is true, but they also appealed to other authority outside of written revelation. For example:
:a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture. b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down. c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does. d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

===='''5. The Apostles Exercised Authority at the Council of Jerusalem'''====
In the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:6–30), we see Peter and James speaking with authority. This Council makes an authoritative pronouncement (citing the Holy Spirit) that was binding on all Christians:
:“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity” (Acts 15:28–29).
In the next chapter, we read that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were traveling around “through the cities,” and Scripture says that
:“they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).

===='''6. Pharisees, Sadducees, and Oral, Extrabiblical Tradition'''====
Christianity was derived in many ways from the Pharisaical tradition of Judaism. The Sadducees, on the other hand, rejected the future resurrection of the soul, the afterlife, rewards and retribution, demons and angels, and predestinarianism. The Sadducees also rejected all authoritative oral teaching and essentially believed in [[sola scriptura]]. They were the theological liberals of that time. Christian Pharisees are referred to in Acts 15:5 and Philippians 3:5, but the Bible never mentions Christian Sadducees.
The Pharisees, despite their corruptions and excesses, were the mainstream Jewish tradition, and both Jesus and Paul acknowledge this. So neither the orthodox Old Testament Jews nor the early Church was guided by the principle of sola scriptura.

===='''7. Old Testament Jews Did Not Believe in Sola Scriptura'''====
To give two examples from the Old Testament itself:
:a. Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (cf. Ezra 7:26). b. In Nehemiah 8:3, Ezra reads the Law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem. In verse 7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra and helped the people to understand the law. Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function (cf. 2 Chr. 17:8–9).
So the people did indeed understand the law (cf. Neh. 8:8, 12), but not without much assistance—not merely upon hearing. Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc. The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament (cf. Mark 4:33–34; Acts 8:30–31; 2 Pet. 1:20; 3:16).

===='''8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”'''====
:“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).
This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church.

Protestants [[Eisegesis|extrapolate]] onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:
:“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).
If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

===='''9. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding'''====
If Paul wasn’t assuming that, he would have been commanding his followers to adhere to a mistaken doctrine. He writes:
:“If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed” (2 Thess. 3:14). “Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them” (Rom. 16:17).
He didn’t write about “the ''pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible'' doctrine which you have been taught.”

===='''10. Sola Scriptura Is a [[Circular reasoning|Circular Position]]'''====
When all is said and done, Protestants who accept sola scriptura as their rule of faith appeal to the Bible. If they are asked why one should believe in their particular denominational teaching rather than another, each will appeal to “the Bible’s clear teaching.” Often they act as if they have no tradition that guides their own interpretation.

This is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, “Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don’t.” The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations. Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding. Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or constitutional amendment. In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.

But Protestantism lacks this because it appeals to a logically self-defeating principle and a book that must be interpreted by human beings. Obviously, given the divisions in Protestantism, simply “going to the Bible” hasn’t worked. In the end, a person has no assurance or certainty in the Protestant system. They can only “go to the Bible” themselves and perhaps come up with another doctrinal version of some disputed doctrine to add to the list. One either believes there is one truth in any given theological dispute (whatever it is) or adopts a relativist or indifferentist position, where contradictions are fine or the doctrine is so “minor” that differences “don’t matter.”

But the Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are “minor” and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the “three-legged stool”: Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

[https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/a-quick-ten-step-refutation-of-sola-scriptura —Dave Armstrong]

===Reiteration - Bible texts: Regenerative Baptism===
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*Baptism '''saves''' you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
*Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
*There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
*Jesus '''saves''' us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
*With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
*The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
*Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
*Be baptized. The promise of '''salvation''' is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
*Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
*Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
*God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
*We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
*To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
*A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]
*Except a person be regenerated by water '''and''' the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].
*And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were '''justified''' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 1 Corinthians 6:11] "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19].
*For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 1 Corinthians 12:13]
*For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 Galatians 3:27]
*Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Romans 6:3]–[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 6:4].
*even when we were '''dead''' through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been '''saved'''). [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 Ephesians 2:5]. ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for '''salvation''', expressed by man.])
*one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 Ephesians 4:5]–[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 6].

*Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
*He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47] ''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism '''saves''' us now, by water and the blood.''
*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
*I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Corinthians%2013%3A2 2 Corinthians 13:2]

--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 06:34, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:Churchiness and pious sounding rhetoric do not '''save'''. Only the spirit of God through Christ '''saves'''.

:What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:54, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

::It's not difficult. (You didn't mention the blood of Christ.) Except a man be '''born of water and the Spirit''', he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5. He '''saves us''', not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his mercy, '''by the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit'''. Tt 3:5.

::What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth? --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 14:31, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::You are right: Only the spirit of God through Christ '''saves''' us. The Bible says that only the spirit of God through Christ '''saves''' us by the washing of water with the word, by the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-27&version=NRSVCE '''Ephesians 5:25-27''']; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+3%3A5&version=NRSVCE '''Titus 3:5''']

:::What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth of the Bible? --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 15:24, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

::::''washing of water with the word''. Here, water is used figuratively. The word cleanses when you are immersed in it. Below you deny the authority of the Word. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:27, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::'''What is your authority for saying the word water in this text is used figuratively?''' The biblical author doesn't say it is either figurative or that it is a figurative image of being immersed in the study of the scriptures of the Lord. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:38, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::Ok then, try taking a bath with words. You can either shout at the dirt or rip pages out of a bible to scrub yourself.
::::::''To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace.'' This is obviously spiritual language (''but the carnal mind '''cannot''' understand''). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 23:54, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::::''Ye must have the mind of Christ''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:02, 3 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::::According to 1 Timothy 4:4-5 food received with thanksgiving is actually consecrated (made sacred, holy) by the word of God and prayer. It is the same with water consecrated for baptism by the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." What is your proof from the text of Titus that the washing of regeneration is figurative? All you offered in answer was an absurdity with sarcasm and insult. You have not demonstrated or proved that "the washing" is figurative and that it cannot possibly involve water. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:00, 3 November 2019 (EST).

:::::''Dataclarifier says:''
:::::I will not let this one pass. You are either totally ignorant of New Testament Greek, or you are an outrageously blatant liar'''!''' ''In any case, you have totally [[Falsehood|falsified]] the meaning of this text of the Bible.'' By clearly doing so, you have completely disqualified yourself as a Bible Christian, by your denying of the authority of the Word of the Lord: —the word '''λουτροῦ''' ''loutrou'' "washing". (Your interpretation is an illicit [[Eisegesis|eisegetical]] error, not a genuine [[exegesis]].)

:::::''Commentary on RobS interpretation''. This is not a case of a simple mistake or misunderstanding; it has serious consequences for those who believe him, and believe others who teach the same error of false interpretation. Such a man cannot be trusted with the Word of God. His words are proven incompetent and worthless. He has testified against himself. The evidence is irrefutable. Any persistence in manifest error after it is demonstrated beyond any possible remaining doubt ''[[ipso facto]]'' exposes undeniable dishonesty, an unmistakable lack of integrity, a spirit resistant to plain truth even when the truth is obvious, irrefutable and clearly evident.

:::::The Greek word here in Titus 3:5 — '''λουτροῦ''' ''loutrou'' "<nowiki>[the]</nowiki> washing" — means "a washing, a bath, a cleansing bath (of water, not the vessel), water for washing, washing". It doesn't mean anything else. The word is used twice in the New Testament (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5), and has been used for more than a thousand years by ecclesiastical writers to the time of the Reformation, as a synonymous figure of speech for "baptism", "the bath of regeneration" ("washing", a bath, figurative, baptism)—the word "washing" itself in Titus 3:5, '''λουτροῦ''' ''loutrou'' (a cleansing bath of water, washing) is not figurative.

:::::The Greek word for "regeneration" here in Titus 3:5 — '''παλιγγενεσία''' ''paliggenesia'' — means "rebirth", "renovation", "restoration", "regeneration". Commonly, however, '''παλιγγενεσία''' ''paliggenesia'' denotes '''the restoration of a thing to its pristine state''', its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death. [http://biblehub.com/greek/3067.htm Greek dictionary '''λουτρόν''' ''loutron'' "<nowiki>[the]</nowiki> washing"] [http://biblehub.com/greek/3824.htm Greek dictionary '''παλιγγενεσία''' ''paliggenesia'' "regeneration"] [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/titus/3-5.htm Titus 3:5 — interlinear text] [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5 — multiple versions] [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/titus/3-5.htm Titus 3:5 — multiple commentaries representing the scholarship you reject]. The word "figurative" is not used in any of the commentaries on this passage, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox. The '''παλιγγενεσία''' ''paliggenesia'' "regeneration" is not figurative rebirth, but actual spiritual rebirth, affecting the being of the one baptized, a genuine conversion of the nature of the one who has been baptized.
::::: —"Seeing, then, that God has '''saved''' us by His own act, independently of any work of ours, we ask, How has He effected this? The words we are here considering give the answer to the question. The Greek should be rendered, “by the laver of regeneration,” &c. Then, by means of the laver of regeneration, &c, has God put us into a state of '''salvation'''. In other words, He has effected this by means of “baptism” (for the laver here can only signify the baptismal font, and is called the laver of regeneration because it is the vessel consecrated to the use of that [[sacrament]]), whereby, in its completeness as a sacrament, the new life in Christ is conveyed." --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:00, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::Huh? Your loosing me. The text says ''washing '''with''' the word''. It does not say ''washing '''and''' the word''.
::::::It is the same meaning James gives in his exhortation at:
:::::::''if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like a man beholding himself in a mirror: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.''
::::::This is what is meant by '''cleansing with the word'''. The Word is a mirror into ourselves. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 06:56, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::Palengenesia, regeneration or renewal, is found by rejection of traditions of men and embracing the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:25, 3 November 2019 (EST)

==Analysis==
The argument seems to be:
*The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative;
*'''Salvation''' is dependent upon church membership;
*While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; '''salvation''' still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.
.[[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

(To see an unbroken copy of the response that follows without addition of inserted opposing comments click [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Infant_baptism&oldid=1590699#Analysis '''here'''].)

===Scriptural support for the analysis===
:All of the following scriptures from the Bible, or Word of God, are authoritative.
:*Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5
:*He who believes and is baptized will be '''saved'''; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mk 16:16
:*I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16:18-19
:*Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. He 13:17
:*Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Ac 20:28
:*And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ep 4:11-16 (''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38''.)
:*For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Co 12:12-13
:*Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Co 12:27-38 (''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16''.)
:*Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tm 2:15
:*And account the forbearance of our Lord as '''salvation'''. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of [[Antinomianism|lawless]] men and lose your own stability. 2 Pt 3:15-17
:*You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Tm 2:1-2 (''often cited as support for [[apostolic succession]]'')
:*I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. Jn 15:1-6
:*For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
:*You see that a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
:*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit [[apostasy]], since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. He 6:4-6
:*He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt 12:30-31
:*If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 Jn 5:16-17
:*My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will '''save''' his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
:*I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Jn 16:12-14
:*And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. Jn 14:16-17
:*Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Co 3:16-17
:*So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ep 2:19-22
:*if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Tm 3:15
:*Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 Jn 2:18-29
:*If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
:*Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 Jn 9-11
:*As for a man who is [[Schism|factious]], after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Tt 3:10-11
:*Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, '''reject authority''', and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
:*These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16 {{unsigned|User:Dataclarifier}}
:::<big>Your citation to Romans 2 here is out of place. Paul is speaking to the '''unsaved''', to those under Law, not under grace. The first seven chapters of Romans is all spoken to those outside the family of God.

:::What does it mean to be ''in Christ?'' (Romans chapter 8 and elsewhere: ''there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ''. This stands in stark contrast to those under condemnation in Romans 2, ''he will render to every man according to his works''. To be '''saved''' means to be '''saved''' from the wrath of the Law.

:::I should leave it at that, however this doctrine is supported by the parable of the householder who went to hire labourers in his field (Matt 20). They all got the same pay, whether they worked one hour or all day. ''The Kingdom of God is like unto'' the householder who shortchanged the guys who labored all day and paid the bum stragglers the same amount. So no, those who are '''saved''' by grace shall not be repaid according to their works.

:::::"''So no, those who are '''saved''' by grace shall '''''not''''' be repaid according to their works.''"
:::::You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.
:::::*For he will render to '''every''' man according to his '''works''': to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for '''every one who does good''', the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
:::::*You see that a man is justified by '''works''' and not by '''faith alone'''. Jm 2:24 (context [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james+2%3A12-26&version=RSVCE '''James 2:12-26'''].) {{unsigned|User:Dataclarifier}}

:::It's a gospel of grace, not of works.</big> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:51, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::I place my comments here because by context they belong here. You've strung together various verses; most are spoken to the people of God. Roman 2:6 is spoken to lost sinners - people apart from God. By removing my post from its proper context, you are preaching a doctrine of men, '''''rendering the word of God to no effect.''''' 07:19, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::I place my original response here because by context it belongs here as my original response to your assertion, but you chose to omit it. You've rejected a fundamental statement of the word of God, '''''rendering the word of God to no effect by your tradition.''''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:40, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Let's be clear about who teaches what. The Catholic Church has utterly condemned the [[Pelagianism|Pelagian "gospel of salvation by works"]]. The Church absolutely condemns the idea that salvation can be earned. It can't. Works make faith complete, just as St. James teaches. "Faith without works is dead. You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.''' '''Anyone''' who says the Catholic Church teaches that salvation must be earned knows nothing, and is seriously guilty of [[Misrepresentation|misrepresenting]] Catholic doctrine with a gross [[falsehood]] against the truth. '''Anyone''' who says that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus does not save by his blood in baptism through the Catholic Church is guilty of seriously misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth. The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is '''''solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through the [[sacrament]] of baptism [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'''''. Proof of this is set forth clearly in the [http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm '''''The Catechism of the Catholic Church''''', Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers '''1987-2029'''] - ''citing abundant Bible support'', '''Rom 3:22;''' cf. '''6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11;''' Cf. '''1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48;''' Cf. '''2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::You're a day late and dollar short. You're already on record claiming that a work - physical baptism - is necessary for salvation. That's what this whole discussion has been about. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::God does the work of salvation in baptism through the power of the Holy Spirit in [[sacrament]]al water baptism which He ordained as the ordinary means of salvation ''[[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'', not man.--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:45, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::Secondly, elsewhere on this page you asked, "Where does it say the church can't save?" I responded by saying even the Catholic church does not teach that the church can save. You just dug out church teaching:
:::::::::''The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is '''solely''' by the grace and justification of '''Jesus Christ alone''' by the power of the Holy Spirit through baptism.
::::::::To answer your latest posting, you've insisted that the physical work of water baptism is necessary for salvation. Both the Bible and the confused doctrine of men you cite refute you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 18:55, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::You very cleverly distorted, contradicted and falsified the teaching in [http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#819 '''CCC 819''' "Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of '''salvation'''".] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::Read your own posting. It says Christ saves, not the church. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::::To put it bluntly - baptism does not save. Only the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ saves. All else is another gospel, ''which is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:02, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::To put it bluntly - "baptism saves you now" 1 Peter 3:21. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::So which is it? the work of Christ or work of a believer who is baptized that saves? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 19:33, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::'''Both:''' Christ and the baptizer in one body. '''The sanctifying work of Christ through baptism.''' "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that '''he''' might '''sanctify''' her, having '''cleansed''' her by the '''washing of water ''with'' the word''', that '''he''' might present the church '''to himself''' in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be '''holy''' and without blemish." Ephesians 5:25-27. "'''He saved us''', not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, '''by the [http://biblehub.com/greek/3067.htm λουτρού water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit'''] which he '''poured out upon us''' richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be '''justified''' by '''his''' grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7. "Except a person be '''born of water and the Spirit''', a person cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:22, 3 November 2019 (EST) 
::::::::::::Huh? Why is it so difficult to answer a simple question (and for good measure, you toss in ''washing of water with the word'', again). You know good and well that only the shed blood of Jesus and his resurrection brings our salvation. You also know salvation is by the grace of God, and cannot be earned by works. Why can't you just say that? Stop refuting God, and denying God's work, and making the claim that your salvation is dependent on an action on YOUR part. That, is ''another gospel, which is no gospel at all.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:43, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::[added later] ''Why can't you just say that? '' ''with the mouth one confesses and is saved.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 08:11, 5 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::Three scriptural texts demonstrate that it is Christ himself doing the work of baptism for '''salvation''' directly '''through''' the members of his Church by what they do in obedience to his will in baptism, which he himself ordained as the ordinary means of salvation.—"Now '''you are the body of Christ''' and individually members of it." 1 Corinthians 12:27. "for '''God is at work in you''', both to will and to '''work''' for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13. "There is '''one body and one Spirit''', just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, '''one baptism''', one God and Father of us all, who is above all and '''through all and in all'''." Ephesians 4:4-6. "'''Go therefore''' and make disciples of all nations, '''baptizing''' them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you '''always''', to the end of the world. Matthew 28:19-10.--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:54, 3 November 2019 (EST) (this edit was prepared ready to post just before discovering at the same time an edit conflict by the following edits by RobSmith below)
:::::::::::::Here's a good refutation of the 1 Peter 3:21 citation as meaning you need to be baptized to be saved: [https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-1Peter-3-21.html] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:47, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::That is very good. The problem is, it is lost on someone who does not understand what salvation is in the first place.

::::::::::::::God does not need our help for '''''anything'''''. God does not need man to interpret what he says. God does not need us to perform a ritual cause Jesus' death and resurrection isn't quite sufficient. God didn't need David to build a house for him. God didn't need Abraham to sleep with Hagar to speed God's promise of a son along. When we do God these 'favors' to help him along, cause God evidently is incapable of performing some tasks, is when we get into trouble.
::::::::::::::{inserted later] Another example is Moses: God told him to strike the rock once, but he figured God needed a little help or wasn't clear in his instructions, and in anger gave it a few more whacks.
::::::::::::::It is foolishness to speak of baptism when you do not even know what faith, grace, or salvation is. First things first. Let this be a lesson to students. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 23:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::::::::::I was baptized by water and the Spirit, but I didn't do it. Therefore my salvation was not dependent on an action on MY part. You keep insisting that we baptize ourselves and do the work ourselves. No. I did nothing. Jesus did, by washing me with his precious blood in the water of regeneration. Sacramental baptism is done to us and for us by Jesus Christ Himself by water and the Spirit. No Christian, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic does the work to save himself. None of us baptized ourselves. If you still think baptism is a work I did to myself to be saved you are wrong. I didn't do it. Baptism by water and the Spirit is the supreme grace of God. Pure gift bestowed. No one can earn it for himself, and no one can do it to himself or for himself. It's done to us, not by us. Baptism is not a work of our own salvation. It's the work of Jesus by his blood. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now '''saves''' you. John 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21. Plain and simple, easy to understand. But you still just don't get it. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:53, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::Ok. Very Good. Let's back up now.
::::::::::::::::Why do we need salvation? (Note: My question is "Why do we need salvation?", not "Why do we need baptism?"). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 23:48, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::Why? “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, '''he cannot enter the kingdom of God'''.” – Baptism now '''saves''' you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::Why do we need salvation? “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, '''he cannot enter the kingdom of God'''.” – Baptism now '''saves''' you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST) Why do we need salvation? '''God is not willing that any should perish!''' 2 Peter 3:9. The '''promise''' is to you '''and to your children.''' Acts 2:39 --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:04, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::Does sin have anything to do with it? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:00, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::Ok, so you told me ''how'' to enter the Kingdom of God, but you didn't tell me anything about the need to confess my sins (''If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins'') Why do I need salvation? What am I being saved from? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:14, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::The Catholic Church can tell you, all based on the Bible. It's all set forth clearly in the [http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm '''''The Catechism of the Catholic Church''''', Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers '''1987-2029'''] - ''citing abundant Bible support'', '''Rom 3:22;''' cf. '''6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11;''' Cf. '''1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48;''' Cf. '''2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.''' If you have a teachable spirit, you will have your answers. “Go thou and learn." [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Corinthians%208%3A2 '''1 Corinthians 8:2'''] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:45, 4 November 2019 (EST) (you weren't willing to wait)
::::::::::::::::::::I already told you I know it's in there, somewhere. But God's message of salvation has gotten lost among doctrines of men. Do yourself a favor, don't preach on baptism until you can explain what salvation is and why people need it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:23, 4 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::::::::::::Ok, I'll answer for you (since the answer is one or two words and I don't feel like waiting two hours to see you spam the page again with more irrelevant nonsense).
:::::::::::::::::Sin.
:::::::::::::::::Alternatively, some might say the ''wrath of God'', which is equally correct.
:::::::::::::::::''For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.'' (Romans 10:10, where this whole discussion began). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:30, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::[https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2014%3A7 Proverbs 14:7] “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, '''he cannot enter the kingdom of God'''.” Baptism now '''saves''' you. This grace was given to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery of God who created all things; that '''through the Church''' the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 3:8-11. Know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of God, '''the pillar and bulwark of the truth'''. 1 Timothy 3:15 Your interminable argument is not with me but with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. '''[https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%208%3A33] [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A42]''' You cannot win. I have helped you all I can, but you still just don't get it. Now I must attend to far more important matters. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:28, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::Bingo. You got it. My argument is with the Pharisaical traditions of the Catholic church, as Christ's were with the scribes and Pharisees of his day. ''Making the word of God to no effect'', ''preaching another gospel which is no gospel at all.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:47, 4 November 2019 (EST)

=====Romans 10:9-10, again=====
:''if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.''
*''believe in thine heart'' - faith.
*''confess with thy mouth'' - the only action required on your part.
This is true repentance - i.e. a change of heart and change of mind about (a) sin, (b) what God says about sin, (c) God, (d) what God says about Himself. The moment you confess (i.e. vocalize) these spiritual truths from a sincere heart, you become resurrected from the dead and are spiritually born. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 01:08, 4 November 2019 (EST)

====Point one of the analysis====

:'''Point one of the analysis'''. From the Bible itself we see that the Bible must be "rightly divided" and interpreted by the "leaders" and "guardians of the flock" so that we are not "carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles".
::In my youth, age 8-14, I sometimes asked my ''Grace Baptist'' pastor to confirm what I thought I understood from my Bible reading because what I found in reading it surprised me and I wanted to check my conclusions from my reading of the Bible alone, and he corrected my errors of understanding, because there were other parts of the Bible I either hadn't read or had forgotten and had failed to take into account, and from age 15-17 Pastor Archie Veltman, ''Southtown Baptist'', Des Moines.
:More than the Bible alone was needed. That's why we have [[Sunday School]] teachers to guide and interpret the Bible for the children. Even ''[[sola scriptura]]'' Christians need more than the Bible alone. That's why pastoral guardians of the congregation are needed and appointed to preach doctrine to their flocks, ostensibly so they won't go astray as a result of their personal reading of the Bible. Paul's listings in Ephesians 4:11-16 and 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 do not mention the Bible as necessary for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. The Bible ''is'' authoritative, but it is insufficient of itself ''alone'', without guidance in understanding. That's why we have need of "Bible lesson" materials, and seminaries of pastoral Bible training for future pastors and Christian educators. The overwhelming multitude of online Bible commentary sites and [[Christian apologetics]] sites by ''sola scriptura'' Bible Christians is proof that even they acknowledge that the Bible itself, by itself, is not solely authoritative. Still, the scriptures can be twisted (KJV "wrested") by unprincipled men to their destruction and the destruction of those who follow them 1 Pt 3:15-18.

:Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative". Essentially a correct analysis of the argument. It is authoritative, even according to Catholic doctrine, but not by itself alone (''The Cathechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC numbers 74-141). Whether Independent, Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic, the Bible is always interpreted by the differing Christian groups according to particular doctrinal principles not written in the Bible. For example, no text of the Bible says, "The Bible (Scripture) is the sole rule of faith for the man of God." It says rather that "the scriptures are useful / profitable". 2 Timothy 3:13-17
::"while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for '''salvation''' through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every '''good work'''."
::It does not say "the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for '''salvation''' through faith alone". It does not say "All scripture is inspired by God as the sole rule of faith". It does not say that faith alone is enough, but it says that the scriptures make us "equipped for every good work". "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ep 2:10
:James says "You see that a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24. Martin Luther contradicted this doctrine. He said James is a "strawy epistle" and that he found nothing of the Gospel in it, and removed it to an appendix of uninspired writings in his German Bible. The Bible is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, but works are necessary, since a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone. The Bible is authoritative, but not by itself alone. {{unsigned|User:Dataclarifier}}

:::::I can speak freely because I am from a devout Catholic background. While I have embraced the teachings of Luther, Wesley, and even Calvin, I'm the first guy to get offended when my Protestant brethren trash talk the Catholic church. I am Catholic in the true sense as articulated in the ''Epistolen Katholika'' (I used to like tweeking Lutherans by explaining to them how they really are Catholic).

:::::Anywho, IMO, the Catholic bureaucracy is kinda like the Deep State of organized Christianity. It's become corrupted with the doctrines of men. They have watered down the Word of God. But I can attest, the Word is still there, cause I heard it and learned it from an early age. I had to go through a period of detox as all bible believing Catholics do, of separating man made church doctrine from the Word of God to understand God's message. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 23:23, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

:::::Interesting - my neighbor lady stopped by while I was working on this, and I tried to explain to her what I was doing. I've known her only as a Christian, but she seemed to understand the issue and arguments, so I asked her, "Are you Catholic" and she said yes. Without prompting she said, "You can only be baptized ''after'' you become a believer" and laughed at the notion that it could be otherwise.

:::::I suspect bible believing Catholics are way larger in number than most people suspect - maybe even larger in number than regular Roman Catholic church attendees in the United States. Simply because someone abandons the Roman church teaching (i.e. ''doctrines of men making the Word of God of no effect'') doesn't automatically make them Protestant or even accepted by Protestants since birth. Secular Jews and Messianic Jews go through a similar identity crisis. Most are like myself, we embrace the label of Christian or bible believing Catholic, and reject the label of being religious or adhering to the doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:02, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::What's happened to the Roman church is nothing new; see 2 Chronicles 34:14-15. The Word of God was lost in the House of the Lord. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 15:12, 3 November 2019 (EST)

====Point two of the analysis====

:'''Point two of the analysis.''' From the Bible we see that Christians are "baptized into the body of Christ" and that "just as the body is one and has many members, so it is with Christ"—"you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church" several ministries, among them the "guardians of the flock to feed the Church of God which he obtained with his own blood". The members of the Church are all "baptized into Christ", "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". "If a man does not remain in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rv 20:15

:Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "'''Salvation''' is dependent upon church membership". The Bible supports that argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. But church membership is much broader than being legally listed on the church rolls of membership in a particular Christian congregation. According to Catholic doctrine all who are baptized by water and the Spirit with the word are members of the body of Christ, and united to the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly, without being aware of it (''The Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC numbers 830-848). Membership in the body of Christ himself extends even beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, embracing all who have been baptized into his body "unwilling that any should perish" 2 Pt 3:9.
::"Hence they could not be '''saved''' who, '''knowing''' that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it...Those who, [[Invincible ignorance|through no fault of their own]], do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal '''salvation'''" CCC 846, 847.
:And as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone, those who do not abide in the body of Christ are cast out and burned.

====Point three of the analysis====

:'''Point three of the analysis.''' From the Bible we see that even if a person is baptized into the body of Christ and believes, subsequent loss of belief and falling away (παραπίπτω ''parapipto'' "apostasy") from Christ afterward will condemn them to hell (Hebrews 6:7-8; John 15:6), unless someone brings them back to repentance (James 5:19-20; ''The Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC numbers 811-870 and 1422-1470.). "You see that a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone", "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rm 2:6 We also see from the Bible in the words of Jesus himself "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." It is evident from the word of Jesus himself that his sacrificial death of infinite and eternal value is insufficient to cleanse this mortal sin of blasphemous and irredeemable unrepentance.

:Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; '''salvation''' still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins." The Bible supports this argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. {{unsigned|User:Dataclarifier}}

:::::Holy Spirit = Word of God. This is why tampering with the Holy Spirit is so risky, adding to, taking away, or nullifying. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 23:48, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

====conclusion: the analysis of the argument is supported ''sola scriptura''====
:Your analysis of the argument is a fairly accurate summary, with some minor provisions added for clarification. Every point set out as the essential argument in the analysis is found in the Bible (a) Scripture is authoritative when properly interpreted but insufficient of itself alone (b) '''Salvation''' is dependent on being united to Jesus Christ and abiding in the one body of his Church as a member of his body (c) Baptism unites the baptized to the body of Christ as a member of his own body built into the temple of the Spirit, but without good works as the sustaining fruit of '''salvation''' the member bears no fruit and is lost (cast forth), and the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of unrepented sins and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

:The Bible supports all of these points of the analysis. What remains is the question of whether or not to accept the analysis ''sola scriptura'', based on all of the scriptural support for it cited here. Use the principle of "Scripture interprets scripture" without disregarding any part of scripture cited here in support of the three points of analysis. Jesus said to the lawyer (to an expert in the Law of Moses), "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" Lk 10:25-28 He also said, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own authority." Jn 7:16-17 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Mt 7:7-8 "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to '''repay every one for what he has done'''. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who '''wash their robes''', that they may have the '''right to the tree of life''' and that they may '''enter the city by the gates'''." Rv 22:11-14 --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 14:00, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

===Objections===

::Ok. So you deny the authority of scripture. Now all you have is are the doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 22:21, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

:::All of my citations of scripture prove that I accept the authority of scripture. It is you who have rejected all the evidence cited from the Bible. You have closed your heart to the word of God. That is my final word. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::True (all are from scripture). Now go back and re-read 1 Corinthians chapter 2. Then answer the question, ''Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?'' (the term "gospel" is a Greek word which does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament Hebrew). Then re-read Exodus 30-33, and see how (1) Moses saw God, (2) Moses had the mind of Christ, (3) Moses offered himself as a sacrifice for the sin of the people but God rejected his offer, (4) Moses was '''saved''' by grace.
::::''ye are not under the law, but under grace''.
::::Now, there are carnal Christians (1 Cor 3:3) and baby Christians (I call them milk and cookie Christians 1 Pet 2:2); then there are meat and potato Christians (Heb 5:14 ''strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil''). Carnal Christians and baby Christians are basically the same thing - they still wrestle with the doctrine of '''salvation''' by grace versus law keeping. They think faith is a work or a task that they must perform to attain '''salvation'''. But I'm getting way ahead of myself here.

::::Forget baptism, for now. Answer these questions:
::::*What is faith?
::::*What is '''salvation'''?
::::*What is God's grace?
::::Once we have an understanding of these, then we can discuss baptism. Water baptism ''does not'' give anyone an understanding of these key concepts. Spiritual baptism can accelerate the process. But dogged pride, study, and learning can get you there, too. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 00:28, 3 November 2019 (EDT)

::::Answer these questions above; don't spam the page with own comments. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 07:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Dataclarifier: Your inability to address these three questions harkens back to Hebrews chapter 3:
:''They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.''
:''For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.''
This is your gospel of '''salvation''' based on baptism, ''they have not known my ways...some, when they heard [the Word of God] did provoke. ''
And that 's what your gospel of infant baptism produces - people who do not know God's word and could care less, and think they are '''saved''' because someone performed some magic abracadabra ritual over them at birth - No different than the chosen who told Jesus ''We be not born of fornication . We be Abraham seed'', in their pride thinking they are legitimate heirs of '''salvation''' by birthright.
[[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 11:04, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::Romans was not addressed to those outside the family of God: "'''To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.'''" Rm 1:7
::::::Clarification: The first seven chapters of Romans ''refers'' to those outside the family of God; chapter 8 onwards refers to those who are ''in Christ''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 07:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::(RobS) "''So no, those who are '''saved''' by grace shall '''''not''''' be repaid according to their works.''"
:::::You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself. (''He has since moved the edit in which he made this self-condemning assertion, quoted by me here, but he did not remove my directly relevant response, and thus leaving it without a context for the reader to evaluate properly as making any sense.)--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::Then explain the meaning of the parable at Matthew chapter 20 (the parable of the householder). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 07:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::*For he will render to '''every''' man according to his '''works''': to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for '''every one who does good''', the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
:::::::Ok, let's digress momentarily. Paul preached a Universal or Catholic gospel (''God shows no partiality''). The first century was marked by racism (''We be Abraham's seed, not born of fornication''). People thought they were entitled to God's grace and '''salvation''' based on birth. Others, like Peter, accepted lowlife gentile scum as being equals ''in Christ'' (''Call not thou unclean what God has made clean'') yet still had problems sitting down to eat with them. Even Jesus said in the parable of the Greek woman, ''I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel''. But Paul clarifies, using Johm 3:16, '''''Whosoever''''', regardless of race sex, national origin, etc.
:::::::You're taking what is a primary Catholic doctrine, that those outside the Covenants of Abraham and David, can be ''grafted in'' to the family of God, and perverting it into a universal doctrine of Law, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 09:00, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::*You see that a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
:::::::This has been debated to death. James says works are evidence of faith. Nowhere does James say you are '''''saved''''' by works. It's basically a discussion of the practical (James) versus the theoretical (Paul). James is rebuking carnal Christians - people who are Christian in name only - and have not fully put their trust in Christ. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::*Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. Revelation 22:12. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:17, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::Yep. To those grafted in, '''salvation''' from judgement. To those who reject God's grace, judgement. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::We've been over this:
::::::::Rom. 4:15 ''the law worketh wrath''
::::::::Rom. 5:9 ''having now been '''justified''' by His blood, we shall be '''saved from the wrath''' of God through Him.''
:::::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 07:13, 3 November 2019 (EST)

===Wrath vs. grace===
This point is crucial and needs revisiting.

Those who are under grace are not under wrath. Those who are saved by grace are saved from wrath. This is the doctrine of salvation. To claim that God shall repay all men "according to their works" is not the gospel of grace. It is preaching a gospel of wrath, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 10:32, 4 November 2019 (EST)

== '''Love more than faith is necessary for salvation''' ==

After almost 73 years of life, and almost 61 of them believing in Jesus, I am convinced that it is not faith finally that saves, but genuine love in the soul, inclining toward God, in response to the gift of his grace''';''' with the opposite of love, selfishness in the soul, inclining away from God, in response to the offering presence of the gift of his grace which is rejected.
:"And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."
The Bible testifies that even infants not yet born are capable of love or hatred toward God, who looks on the heart, and sees what no one on earth can see. That's what I put in the main article:
:According to the Bible, even infants and those in the womb are able to praise God or go astray from him by sin. See the following:
:[http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/job/31-18.htm Job 31:18]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/8-2.htm Psalm 8:2]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/139-16.htm Psalm 139:16]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/49-1.htm Isaiah 49:1]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/1-5.htm Jeremiah 1:5]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/21-16.htm Matthew 21:16]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/1-41.htm Luke 1:41]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/2-39.htm Acts 2:39]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/17-27.htm Acts 17:27]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-9.htm 2 Peter 3:9]; ''compare'' [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/58-3.htm Psalm 58:3]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/18-4.htm Ezekiel 18:4]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/9-13.htm Romans 9:13].
St. James testified that even the demons believe in God, and they tremble, because they did not love God, but rebelled and fell. The Letter to the Hebrews says
:"The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do."
If any one wants to do His will, you will come to know the truth. And God will deal with you, for he is unwilling that any should perish. The more that those who love God come to know of his will in all things the more they willingly seek to fulfill it. This includes coming to faith in God, reading the scriptures, seeking his true Church to be able to worship with his people, and obeying whatever he has revealed to be most pleasing to him in conduct and belief and devotion of worship. Not every human being has such ability or mental capacity for understanding. It has been said that there is no one so blind as one who will not see, lest they change. Nevertheless, he who has ears to hear will hear, and to him who has will more be given. And [[Invincible ignorance|those who do not understand or know him]] he will love until within the depths of their soul known only to him they accept or reject his calling, "in the hope that they might feel after him and find him."
:"The Spirit of the Lord filleth the whole world." [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Wisdom%201%3A7 Wisdom 1:7]
:"hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

:A final note from me on this page. I recommend to anyone willing to inquire after the truth and is able to do so, to watch the EWTN program with Marcus Grodi, "The Journey Home". He interviews people who were Catholic and left and preached and witnessed against Catholicism and then came back to the Catholic Church based on the Bible, and people who had never been Catholic and were fervently anti-Catholic based on the Bible, who were later convinced to change their minds, by their growing knowledge of the Bible and the discrepancies between it and what they had been taught, and by the result of their prayer for guidance to God, prompting them to obey the Bible, check the facts, and find out what the Church actually teaches, instead of what they had been erroneously told it teaches, to take instruction and join the Catholic Church as the living body of Christ having the fullness of the Gospel of God.

:At the age of 12, when I "went forward to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior", I silently prayed, "Lord, if you ever show me truth that even totally overthrows what I think is the truth, then help me to drop that and cling to what you give me." I testify to every reader of this page that the Lord granted my prayer in full.

:I commend every reader here to the grace of the Holy Spirit and to the prayerful [[intercession]] of St. Jude, the patron of lost causes and impossible cases, and of St. Mary the Mother of Jesus, that you will come to know the loving truth of God and always seek to do his will, no matter what it may be. Amen. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:58, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::Dataclarifier, the Bible is clear that people are saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

::I do realize that true faith will have works, but ultimately it is through faith that one is saved.

::I think there is a lot of unnecessary friction on this page because you don't want to accept this matter.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:53, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::Amother important concept is that "God is a fair judge" as per Psalm 7:11. Therefore, the unbaptised thief on the cross went to heaven (Jesus told the thief on the cross who repented that "Today you will see me in paradise"). I do think that an obedient Christian with a good attitude will want to get baptised, yet the notion that the thief on the cross did not go to heaven when Jesus clearly said He was going to heaven, is an unreasonable idea.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:59, 4 November 2019 (EST)

==A word on pride==
It is pride, the original sin, that hinders us and keeps us from the doctrine of grace. Pride makes us believe that there must be something that we can do to aid God in obtaining our salvation. Rather than accept the finished work of Christ, our pride does not let us humble ourselves before the cross. We insert exceptions, "yes, Jesus saves, contingent upon (insert exception, such as church teaching, water baptism, etc etc etc)", ''rendering the Word of God to no effect through man made church doctrine,'' changing the unfettered doctrine of grace, which requires us to humble ourselves and put away pride, into a doctrine of law and bring us again under subjection to God's wrath. This is that ''other gospel'' Paul warned of, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 10:36, 5 November 2019 (EST)

==More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement==
*John 1:12 ''As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God''
*Luke 11:11 ''Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?''
Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we ''will not'' be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.

Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]] 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)

:What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)

CrowdStrike

2019-11-05T22:14:26Z

JohnZ: Alperovitch: born & raised in Moscow, emigrated to the US in his mid-teens

[[File:Trump-convo-with-zelenskyy.jpg |right|300px |thumb |CrowdStrike interfered in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election.]]
'''CrowdStrike''' is an Irvine, [[California]] cyber security company founded in 2011 by [[Dmitri Alperovitch]]. Alperovitch was born in [[Moscow]] and emigrated to the [[United States]] with his [[Russia]]n parents in his mid-teens.<ref>https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/12/03/crowdstrikes-immigrant-co-founder-fighting-cyber-criminals/</ref><ref>https://fortune.com/40-under-40/2017/dmitri-alperovitch/</ref><ref>https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49902/the-russian-emigre-leading-the-fight-to-protect-america/</ref> He is now an American citizen and a senior fellow at the [[Atlantic Council]]. Another owner and senior manager of Crowdstrike is a former senior [[FBI]] man [[Shawn Henry]], who was promoted by [[Robert Mueller]] to be the FBI's Head of Cyber Security in the 2000s.

Crowdstrike is funded by [[Google]],<ref>https://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2017/03/23/what-is-crowdstrike-firm-hired-by-dnc-has-ties-to-hillary-clinton-a-ukrainian-billionaire-and-google/</ref> the arms industry, [[NATO]], the US Military, [[Saudi Arabia]], the [[UAE]], and another Ukrainian oligarch who donated $10 million to the [[Clinton Foundation]] named [[Victor Pinchuk]].<ref>[https://themarketswork.com/2018/03/11/victor-pinchuk-the-clintons-endless-connections/ Victor Pinchuk, the Clintons & Endless Connections], by Jeff Carlson, March 11, 2018.</ref> Pichuk hosted the September 2013 confabulation in [[Yalta]], [[Crimea]] attended by [[Bill Clinton]], [[Hillary Clinton]], and [[Tony Blair]] to discuss how Ukraine's assets would be carved up after the forthcoming [[Ukrainian coup]].

Russian hacking claims of DNC servers in the Spring of 2016 rely entirely on a report by CrowdStrike.<ref>https://www.voanews.com/usa/think-tank-cyber-firm-center-russian-hacking-charges-misread-data</ref> Despite repeated requests from the FBI, Crowdstrike and the DNC refused to turn over evidence.<ref>https://slate.com/technology/2017/05/the-fbi-is-harder-to-trust-on-the-dnc-hack-because-it-relied-on-crowdstrikes-analysis.html</ref> The [[Obama administration]] never examined the DNC servers to determine if indeed they were hacked, or attempted to identify who the hacker might have been.<ref>https://consortiumnews.com/2019/06/17/fbi-never-saw-crowdstrike-unredacted-or-final-report-on-alleged-russian-hacking-because-none-was-produced/</ref> On July 25, 2019, [[President Trump]] requested [[President Zelensky]] of Ukraine to assist in recovering evidence from Crowdstrike, which contracts with the Ukrainian military.<ref>https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-mentioned-crowdstrike-to-ukrainian-president-and-crowdstrike-doesnt-seem-to-know-why-2019-09-25</ref>

==Background==
They gained national recognition in 2014 when the [[Justice Department]] used CrowdStrike to unmask five [[Chinese]] military people responsible for espionage on U.S. corporations.

CrowdStrike also made news for their work exposing [[North Korea]] as being the nation-state responsible for the [[Sony]] breach.

CrowdStrike received a Series D financial investment from [[Google]] of $100 million in 2015.

==DNC servers==
:{{See also|Ukrainian collusion}}
In 2016, CrowdStrike provided cover for their paid client, the [[Democrat Party]], and blamed [[Russia]] for hacking DNC servers.

On April 28, 2016 DNC CEO Amy Dacy informed DNC attorney [[Michael Sussmann]] of the breach. Sussmann contacted Shawn Henry, CSO and President of Crowdstrike. Two days later the DNC hired CrowdStrike to install software that is meant to identify who gained access, when, and how. The next day, on May 1, CrowdStrike claimed the "intrusion had originated in [[Russia]]," although they would later retract.

The CrowdStrike website touts their 'revolutionary' approach and next-generation protection with their CrowdStrike Falcon services, "We Stop Breaches". As for all three public incidents, it appears they were reactionary and did not prevent an internal or external breach. What they did provide was intelligence and discover digital signatures leading to claimed sources.

Of the 27,500 DNC emails published by Wikileaks, fewer than 7,000 pre-date April 29. A Daily Caller News Foundation analysis of the published emails shows that the majority were written between May 5 and May 25 — after CrowdStrike was brought in to respond.<ref>https://dailycaller.com/2017/11/07/most-wikileaks-emails-werent-even-written-until-after-dnc-knew-it-was-hacked/</ref>

===WikiLeaks===

On May 10, 2016 CrowdStrike installed its Falcon software on DNC servers, two weeks before the last dated email in [[WikiLeaks]]' DNC collection. Adam Carter noted Falcon should have prevented an outside hack, according to its product claims: "either CrowdStrike's flagship product failed miserably to deliver on its claimed capabilities or it could mean CrowdStrike withheld evidence."<ref>http://g-2.space/cs2/</ref>

[[Julian Assange]] announced in a televised interview on June 12 that he was in possession of DNC emails; on June 13, 2018 (two years later) special counsel [[Robert Mueller]] alleged in [[The indictment of 12 Russian nationals, 13 July 2018|an indictment of 12 Russian military intelligence officers]] that alleged Russian "hackers" did not contact Assange with DNC emails until June 14.

Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS), which includes among members two former Technical Directors of the [[National Security Agency]], has repeatedly called attention to its conclusion that the DNC emails were leaked — not “hacked” by Russia or anyone else.<ref>https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/27/did-sen-warner-and-comey-collude-on-russia-gate/</ref> In analyizing the time sequence:

:*June 12, 2016: Assange announces WikiLeaks is about to publish “emails related to [[Hillary Clinton]];”

:*June 14, 2016: DNC contractor Crowdstrike, (with a dubious professional record and multiple conflicts of interest) announced that malware has been found on the DNC server and claims there is evidence it was injected by Russians;

:*June 15, 2016: “Guccifer 2.0” affirms the DNC statement; claims responsibility for the “hack;” claims to be a WikiLeaks source; and posts a document that the forensics show was synthetically tainted with “Russian fingerprints;"

VIPS noted {{Quotebox|"We do not think that the June 12, 14, & 15 timing was pure coincidence. Rather, it suggests the start of a pre-emptive move to associate Russia with anything WikiLeaks might have been about to publish and to “show” that it came from a Russian hack.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20171112090338/https://consortiumnews.com/2017/07/24/intel-vets-challenge-russia-hack-evidence/</ref>}}

The [[mainstream media]] ran with the CrowdStrike version of a hack in an attempt to delegitimize Trump. Starting in June 2016 and continuing forward the DNC, ''[[Washington Post]]'', ''[[New York Times]]'', and other MSM outlets used CrowdStrike's allegations in an attempt to delegitimize [[Donald Trump]] while providing an excuse for Hillary Clinton's loss of the [[2016 presidential election]]. From there followed claims that "Russia hacked the U.S. elections."

On June 14, 2016 the DNC claimed ''Trump Opposition Research'' was stolen in alleged hack.<ref>https://archive.is/mIlwc</ref><ref>''Washington Post'' puts out sensational [[fake news]] story of Russian hacking the DNC. CrowdStrike is reported as discovering the hack, but the hack has never been independently verified by the FBI or any other independent firm or government agency. CrowdStrike, [colloquially referred to as "industry" by the IC] under contract to the DNC, is assisting the DNC to brace for embarrassing Wikileaks revelations of the document dumps procured by DNC [[Whistleblower Statutes|whistleblower]] Seth Rich by blaming Russian hackers. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-government-hackers-penetrated-dnc-stole-opposition-research-on-trump/2016/06/14/cf006cb4-316e-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.9c00be4c3957] https://www.voanews.com/a/crowdstrike-comey-russia-hack-dnc-clinton-trump/3776067.html http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-22/muzzled-breitbart-wh-correspondent-ordered-not-ask-televised-question-discrediting-d *'''15 June.''' Someone purporting to be Guccifer2.0 claims responsibility for DNC hack and claims to be a source for Wikileaks. The first 5 documents he posts are purposefully tainted with 'Russian Fingerprints' and the first of those documents just so happens to be the ''Trump Opposition Research'' the DNC announce on the previous day.</ref>

===Guccifer 2.0===

On June 15, 2016 the first Guccifer 2.0 document was created by [[Warren Flood]] at 13:38 EDT, modified by [[Феликс Эдмундович]] (Felix Edmunovich, the Russian patronymic of Felix Edmunovich Dzerzhinsky, founder of the KGB - a blatantly amateurish attempt to create Russian fingerprints) thirty minutes later at 14:08 EDT. Warren Flood was Joe Biden's former IT director at the White House. A document that Flood authored in 2008, and that was attached to one of [[John Podesta]]'s emails, was used by Guccifer 2.0 as a template into which he then copied the contents of the Trump Opposition Research, copied from this file: https://www.wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/fileid/26562/7365 (which is also attached to [https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/26562 this leaked email]). It is Flood's document that the "CONFIDENTIAL" text in the background derives from.

===Alleged hack===
On the day disgraced FBI director [[James Comey]] exonerated [[Hillary Clinton]] of gross negligence, in the early evening, Eastern Daylight Time, someone working in the EDT time zone with a computer directly connected to the DNC server or DNC Local Area Network, copied 1,976 MegaBytes of data in 87 seconds onto an external storage device. That speed is much faster than what is physically possible with a hack.<ref>https://consortiumnews.com/2017/07/24/intel-vets-challenge-russia-hack-evidence/</ref>

George Eliason of ''Washingtonsblog:'' reported:<ref>[https://washingtonsblog.com/2017/01/crowdstrikes-russian-hacking-story-fell-apart-say-hello-fancy-bear-2.html Why Crowdstrike’s Russian Hacking Story Fell Apart- Say Hello to Fancy Bear], George Eliason, ''Washingtonsblog, January 3, 2016.</ref>
:*In the wake of the JAR-16-20296 dated December 29, 2016 about hacking and influencing the 2016 election, the need for real evidence is clear. The joint report adds nothing substantial to the October 7th report. It relies on proofs provided by the cyber security firm Crowdstrike that is clearly not on par with intelligence findings or evidence. At the top of the report is an “as is” statement showing this.
:*The difference between Dmitri Alperovitch’s claims which are reflected in JAR-1620296 and this article is that enough evidence is provided to warrant an investigation of specific parties for the DNC hacks. The real story involves specific anti-American actors that need to be investigated for real crimes. For instance, the malware used was an out-dated version just waiting to be found. The one other interesting point is that the Russian malware called Grizzly Steppe is from Ukraine. How did Crowdstrike miss this when it is their business to know?
:*The bar for identification set by Crowdstrike has never been able to get beyond words like probably, maybe, could be, or should be, in their attribution. The bar Dimitri Alperovitch set for identifying the hackers involved is that low. Other than asking America to trust them, how many solid facts has Alperovitch provided to back his claim of Russian involvement?
:*information from outside intelligence agencies has the value of rumor or unsubstantiated information at best according to policy. Usable intelligence needs to be free from partisan politics and verifiable. Intel agencies noted back in the early 90’s that every private actor in the information game was radically political.
:*Alperovitch first gained notice when he was the VP in charge of threat research with McAfee. Asked to comment on Alperovitch’s discovery of Russian hacks on Larry King, John McAfee had this to say. “Based on all of his experience, McAfee does not believe that Russians were behind the hacks on the Democratic National Committee (DNC), John Podesta’s emails, and the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign. As he told RT, “if it looks like the Russians did it, then I can guarantee you it was not the Russians.”
:*How does Crowdstrike’s story part with reality? First is the admission that it is probably, maybe, could be Russia hacking the DNC. “Intelligence agencies do not have specific intelligence showing officials in the Kremlin ‘directing’ the identified individuals to pass the Democratic emails to Wiki Leaks.” The public evidence never goes beyond the word possibility. While never going beyond that or using facts, Crowdstrike insists that it’s Russia behind both Clinton’s and the Ukrainian losses.
:*In June, Crowdstrike went public with its findings that two separate Russian intelligence agencies had hacked the DNC. One, which Crowdstrike and other researchers call Cozy Bear, is believed to be linked to Russia’s CIA, known as the FSB. The other, known as Fancy Bear, is believed to be tied to the military intelligence agency, called the GRU.” The information is so certain the level of proof never rises above “believed to be.” According to the December 12th ''Intercept'' article “Most importantly, the Post adds that “intelligence agencies do not have specific intelligence showing officials in the Kremlin ‘directing’ the identified individuals to pass the Democratic emails to WikiLeaks.”
:*The SBU, Olexander Turchinov, and the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense all agree that Crowdstrike is dead wrong in this assessment. Although subtitles aren’t on it, the former Commandant of Ukrainian Army Headquarters thanks God Russia never invaded or Ukraine would have been in deep trouble. How could Dimitri Alperovitch and Crowdstrike be this wrong on easily checked detail and still get this much media attention?
:*Crowdstrike CEO Dmitri Alperovitch story about Russian hacks that cost Hillary Clinton the election was broadsided by the SBU (Ukrainian Intelligence and Security) in Ukraine. If Dimitri Alperovitch is working for Ukrainian Intelligence and is providing intelligence to 17 US Intelligence Agencies is it a conflict of interest?
:*Is giving misleading or false information to 17 US Intelligence Agencies a crime? If it’s done by a cyber security industry leader like Crowdstrike should that be investigated? If unwinding the story from the “targeting of Ukrainian volunteers” side isn’t enough, we should look at this from the American perspective. How did the Russia influencing the election and DNC hack story evolve? Who’s involved? Does this pose conflicts of interest for Dmitri Alperovitch and Crowdstrike? And let’s face it, a hacking story isn’t complete until real hackers with the skills, motivation, and reason are exposed.
:*According to journalist and DNC activist Andrea Chalupa on her Facebook page “After Chalupa sent the email to Miranda (which mentions that she had invited this reporter to a meeting with Ukrainian journalists in Washington),<ref>https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/3962</ref> it triggered high-level concerns within the DNC, given the sensitive nature of her work. “That’s when we knew it was the Russians,” said a Democratic Party source who has been directly involved in the internal probe into the hacked emails. In order to stem the damage, the source said, “we told her to stop her research.”” July 25, 2016
:*If she was that close to the investigation Crowdstrike did how credible is she? Her sister Alexandra was named one of 16 people that shaped the election by Yahoo news. '''The DNC hacking investigation done by Crowdstrike concluded hacking was done by Russian actors based on the work done by Alexandra Chalupa? That is the conclusion of her sister Andrea Chalupa and obviously enough for Crowdstrike to make the Russian government connection.'''
:*How close is Dimitri Alperovitch to DNC officials? Close enough professionally he should have stepped down from an investigation that had the chance of throwing a presidential election in a new direction. According to Esquire.com, Alperovitch has vetted speeches for Hillary Clinton about cyber security issues in the past. Because of his work on the Sony hack, President Barrack Obama personally called and said the measures taken were directly because of his work.
:*Alperovitch’s relationships with the Chalupas, radical groups, think tanks, Ukrainian propagandists, and Ukrainian state supported hackers [show a conflict of interest]. When it all adds up and you see it together, we have found a Russian that tried hard to influence the outcome of the US presidential election in 2016.
::*The Chalupas are not Democrat or Republican. They are [[OUN]]b. The OUNb worked hard to start a war between the USA and Russia for the last 50 years. According to the Ukrainian Weekly in a rare open statement of their existence in 2011, “Other statements were issued in the Ukrainian language by the leadership of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (B) and the International Conference in Support of Ukraine. The OUN (Bandera wing) called for”… What is OUNb Bandera? They follow the same political policy and platform that was developed in the 1930’s by '''[[Stepan Bandera]]'''. When these people go to a '''[[Holocaust]] memorial they are celebrating both the dead and the OUNb [[SS]] that killed.'''<ref>http://www.infoukes.com/galiciadivision/</ref> There is no getting around this fact. The OUNb have no concept of democratic values and want an [[authoritarian]] [[fascism]].
::*[[Alexandra Chalupa]]- According to the ''Ukrainian Weekly'',<ref>http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/2014-ukrainians-in-the-u-s-advocates-for-ukraine/</ref>
{{quotebox|… “The effort, known as Digital Miadan, gained momentum following the initial Twitter storms. Leading the effort were: Lara Chelak, Andrea Chalupa, Alexandra Chalupa, Constatin Kostenko and others.” The Digital Maidan was also how they raised money for the coup. This was how the Ukrainian emigres bought the bullets that were used on [[Euromaidan]]. Ukraine’s chubby nazi, Dima Yarosh stated openly he was taking money from the Ukrainian emigres during Euromaidan and Pravy Sektor still fundraises openly in North America. The “Sniper Massacre” on the Maidan in Ukraine by Dr. Ivan Katchanovski, University of Ottowa shows clearly detailed evidence how the massacre happened. It has Pravy Sektor confessions that show who created the “heavenly hundred. Their admitted involvement as leaders of Digital Maidan by both Chalupas is a clear violation of the Neutrality Act and has up to a 25 year prison sentence attached to it because it ended in a coup.}}
::*Andrea Chalupa-2014, in a ''Huff Post'' article Sept. 1 2016, Andrea Chalupa described Sviatoslav Yurash as one of Ukraine’s important “dreamers.” He is a young activist that founded Euromaidan Press. Beyond the gushing glow what she doesn’t say is who he actually is. Sviatoslav Yurash was Dmitri Yarosh’s spokesman just after Maidan. He is a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist and was rewarded with the Deputy Director position for the UWC (Ukrainian World Congress) in Kiev.
::*In January, 2014 when he showed up at the Maidan protests he was 17 years old. He became the foreign language media representative for Vitali Klitschko, Arseni Yatsenyuk, and Oleh Tyahnybok. All press enquiries went through Yurash. To meet Dimitri Yurash you had to go through Sviatoslav Yurash as a Macleans reporter found out.
::*At 18 years old, Sviatoslav Yurash became the spokesman for Ministry of Defense of Ukraine under Andrei Paruby. He was Dimitri Yarosh’s spokesman and can be seen either behind Yarosh on videos at press conferences or speaking ahead of him to reporters. From January 2014 onward, to speak to Dimitri Yarosh, you set up an appointment with Yurash.
:*Andrea Chalupa has worked with Yurash’s Euromaidan Press which is associated with Informnapalm.org and supplies the state level hackers for Ukraine.
::*Irene Chalupa- Another involved Chalupa we need to cover to do the story justice is Irene Chalupa. From her bio– Irena Chalupa is a nonresident fellow with the Atlantic Council’s Dinu Patriciu Eurasia Center. She is also a senior correspondent at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL), where she has worked for more than twenty years. Ms. Chalupa previously served as an editor for the Atlantic Council, where she covered Ukraine and Eastern Europe. Irena Chalupa is also the news anchor for Ukraine’s propaganda channel org She is also a Ukrainian emigre leader.
:*According to Robert Parry’s article<ref>https://consortiumnews.com/2016/10/22/washingtons-new-lock-step-march-of-folly/</ref> At the forefront of people that would have taken senior positions in a Clinton administration and especially in foreign policy are the '''[[Atlantic Council]]'''. Their main goal is still a major confrontation with nuclear-armed Russia.
:*The Atlantic Council is the think tank associated and supported by the CEEC (Central and Eastern European Coalition). The CEEC has only one goal which is war with Russia. Their question to candidates looking for their support in the election was “Are you willing to go to war with Russia?” Hillary Clinton has received their unqualified support throughout the campaign.
:*What does any of this have to do with Dimitri Alperovitch and Crowdstrike? Since the Atlantic Council would have taken senior cabinet and policy positions, his own fellowship status at the Atlantic Council and relationship with Irene Chalupa creates a definite conflict of interest for Crowdstrike’s investigation. Trump’s campaign was gaining ground and Clinton needed a boost. Had she won, would he have been in charge of the CIA, NSA, or Homeland Security?
:*When you put someone that has so much to gain in charge of an investigation that could change an election, that is a conflict of interest. If the think tank is linked heavily to groups that want war with Russia like the Atlantic Council and the CEEC, it opens up criminal conspiracy.
:*If the person in charge of the investigation is a fellow at the think tank that wants a major conflict with Russia it is a definite conflict of interest. Both the Atlantic Council and clients stood to gain Cabinet and Policy positions based on how the result of his work affects the election. It clouds the results of the investigation. In Dmitri Alperovitch’s case, he found the perpetrator before he was positive there was a crime.
:*Alperovitch’s relationship with Andrea Chalupa’s efforts and Ukrainian intelligence groups is where things really heat up. Noted above she works with Euromaidanpress.com and Informnapalm.org which is the outlet for Ukrainian state-sponsored hackers.
[[File:Alperovitch-hacker-friends-400x118 (1).jpg|right|300px|thumb|Alperovitch and [[Fancy Bear]] tweet each other.]]
:*When you look at Dimitri Alperovitch’s twitter relationships, you have to ask why the CEO of a $150 million dollar company like Crowdstrike follows Ukrainian InformNapalm and its hackers individually. There is a mutual relationship. When you add up his work for the OUNb, Ukraine, support for Ukraine’s Intelligence, and to the hackers it needs to be investigated to see if Ukraine is conspiring against the US government. Crowdstrike is also following their hack of a Russian government official after the DNC hack. It closely resembles the same method used with the DNC because it was an email hack.
:*Crowdstrike’s product line includes Falcon Host, Falcon Intelligence, Falcon Overwatch and Falcon DNS. Is it possible the hackers in Falcons Flame are another service Crowdstrike offers?
:*In an interview with Euromaidanpress these hackers say they have no need for the CIA.<ref>http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/11/02/ukraine-hackers-cyberhunta-surkov-putin-ruh8-cyberalliance/</ref> They consider the CIA amateurish. They also say they are not part of the Ukrainian military Cyberalliance is a quasi-organization with the participation of several groups – RUH8, Trinity, Falcon Flames, Cyberhunta. There are structures affiliated to the hackers – the Myrotvorets site, Informnapalm analytical agency.”
[[File:Surkov-leaks-with-Crowdstrike-390x400.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Although this profile says Virginia, tweets are from the Sofia, Bulgaria time zone and he writes in Russian. Another curiosity considering the Fancy Bear source code is in Russian. This image shows Crowdstrike in their network. Crowdstrike is part of Ukrainian nationalist hacker network. In the image it shows a network diagram of Crowdstrike following the Surkov leaks. The network communication goes through a secondary source.]]
[[File:Osint-image-and-tweet-400x117.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Although OSINT Academy sounds fairly innocuous, it’s the official twitter account for Ukraine’s Ministry of Information head Dimitri Zolotukin. It is also Ukrainian Intelligence. The Ministry of Information started the Peacekeeper or Myrotvorets website that geolocates journalists and other people for assassination. If you disagree with OUNb politics, you could be on the list.]]
:*Should someone tell Dimitri Alperovitch that Gerashchenko, who is now in charge of Peacekeeper recently threatened president-elect Donald Trump that he would put him on his “Peacemaker” site as a target? The same has been done with Silvio Berscaloni in the past.
:*Trying not to be obvious, the Head of Ukraine’s Information Ministry (UA Intelligence) tweeted something interesting that ties Alperovitch and Crowdstrike to the Ukrainian Intelligence hackers and the Information Ministry even tighter. This single tweet on a network chart shows that out of all the Ukrainian Ministry of Information Minister’s following, he only wanted the 3 hacking groups associated with both him and Alperovitch to get the tweet. Alperovitch’s story was received and not retweeted or shared. If this was just Alperovitch’s victory, it was a victory for Ukraine. It would be shared heavily. If it was a victory for the hacking squad, it would be smart to keep it to themselves and not draw unwanted attention.

:*These same hackers are associated with Alexandra, Andrea, and Irene Chalupa through the portals and organizations they work with through their OUNb. The hackers are funded and directed by or through the same OUNb channels that Alperovitch is working for and with to promote the story of Russian hacking.
::*When you look at the image for the hacking group in the euromaidanpress article, one of the hackers identifies themselves as one of Dimitri Yarosh’s Pravy Sektor members by the Pravy Sektor sweatshirt they have on. Noted above, Pravy Sektor admitted to killing the people at the Maidan protest and sparked the coup.
::*Going further with the linked Euromaidanpress article the hackers say "Let’s understand that Ukrainian hackers and Russian hackers once constituted a single very powerful group. Ukrainian hackers have a rather high level of work. So the help of the USA… I don’t know, why would we need it? We have all the talent and special means for this. And I don’t think that the USA or any NATO country would make such sharp movements in international politics.”
:*What sharp movements in international politics have been made lately? Let me spell it out for the 17 US Intelligence Agencies so there is no confusion. These state sponsored, Russian language hackers in Eastern European time zones have shown with the Surkov hack they have the tools and experience to hack states that are looking out for it. They are also laughing at US intel efforts.
:*The hackers also made it clear that they will do anything to serve Ukraine. Starting a war between Russia and the USA is the one way they could serve Ukraine best, and hurt Russia worst. Given those facts, if the DNC hack was according to the criteria given by Alperovitch, both he and these hackers need to be investigated.
::*According to the Esquire interview “Alperovitch was deeply frustrated: He thought the government should tell the world what it knew. There is, of course, an element of the personal in his battle cry. “A lot of people who are born here don’t appreciate the freedoms we have, the opportunities we have, because they’ve never had it any other way,” he told me. “I have.”
:*While I agree patriotism is a great thing, confusing it with this kind of nationalism is not. '''Alperovitch seems to think by serving OUNb Ukraine’s interests and delivering a conflict with Russia that is against American interests, he’s a patriot. He isn’t serving US interests. He’s definitely a Ukrainian patriot.''' Maybe he should move to Ukraine.
:*The evidence presented deserves investigation because it looks like the case for conflict of interest is the least Dimitri Alperovitch should look forward to. If these hackers are the real Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear, they really did make sharp movements in international politics. By pawning it off on Russia, they made a worldwide embarrassment of an outgoing President of the United States and made the President Elect the suspect of rumor.
:*From the Observer.com,
{{quotebox|“Andrea Chalupa—the sister of DNC research staffer Alexandra Chalupa—claimed on social media, without any evidence, that despite Clinton conceding the election to Trump, the voting results need to be audited to because Clinton couldn’t have lost—it must have been Russia. Chalupa hysterically tweeted to every politician on Twitter to audit the vote because of Russia and claimed the TV show The Americans, about two KGB spies living in America, is real.”}}
:*Quite possibly now the former UK Ambassador Craig Murry’s admission of being the involved party to “leaks” should be looked at.
{{quotebox|“Now both Julian Assange and I have stated definitively the leak does not come from Russia. Do we credibly have access? Yes, very obviously. Very, very few people can be said to definitely have access to the source of the leak. The people saying it is not Russia are those who do have access. After access, you consider truthfulness. Do Julian Assange and I have a reputation for truthfulness? Well in 10 years not one of the tens of thousands of documents WikiLeaks has released has had its authenticity successfully challenged. As for me, I have a reputation for inconvenient truth telling.”}}

==Documented fake news==
The FBI received a draft, redacted report from Crowdstrike alleging the Russian's hacked the DNC. The FBI never looked further into it. The so-called 'Russia hacked the DNC' narrative became the official U.S. government position in the Intelligence Community Assessment to President Obama, the Mueller Report, DOJ indictments, and [[fake news]] leak narratives provided to [[mainstream media]].

NBC News carried the story because one of the partners in Crowdstrike is also a consultant for NBC. According to NBC the story reads like this: ”The company, Crowdstrike, was hired by the DNC to investigate the hack and issued a report publicly attributing it to Russian intelligence" One of Crowdstrike’s senior executives is Shawn Henry, a former senior FBI official who consults for [[NBC News]].

In December 2016, CrowdStrike claimed Russia's military hacked the [[Ukrainian]] army with malware. The ''[[Washington Post]]'' would spread the story but in March 2017, CrowdStrike revised and retracted statements after coming under the scrutiny of experts.<ref>[https://theintercept.com/2017/06/27/cnn-journalists-resign-latest-example-of-media-recklessness-on-the-russia-threat/ CNN Journalists Resign: Latest Example of Media Recklessness on the Russia Threat, The Intercept, June 27, 2017]</ref>

In June 2019 the DOJ admitted that the FBI never saw the Crowdstrike report on DNC Russian hacking claims.<ref>https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/06/15/doj-admits-fbi-never-saw-crowdstrike-report-on-dnc-russian-hacking-claim/</ref> Lawyers for [[Roger Stone]] requested the full Crowdstrike report on the DNC hack. Not only did the FBI not review the DNC server, the FBI/DOJ never even saw the Crowdstrike report. The FBI and DOJ were only allowed to see a “draft” report prepared by Crowdstrike, and that report was redacted. That redacted draft is the “last version of the report produced”; meaning, there are no unredacted & final versions. The FBI and DOJ, and all claims by the intelligence community, including the 2017 ''Intelligence Community Assessment'' to President Obama, the final Mueller Report, [[Mueller show trials|Mueller team indictments]], and illegal [[IC]] [[fake news]] [[leak]]s to [[mainstream media]] were based on taking the word of a hired contractor for the [[Democrat party]]. As of 2019, there still exists no official evidence of the claim that 'Russia hacked the DNC'.

==See also==
*[[Ukrainian collusion timeline]]
* [[Murder of Seth Rich]]
*[[Jerome Corsi]]

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
* [https://www.crowdstrike.com Company website]
*[http://g-2.space/diskimg/ CrowdStrike, Comey & Conflicting Claims?], By Adam Carter --- July 16th, 2017.

{{Deep State}}
[[Category:Business]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Malware]]
[[Category:2016 Presidential Election]][[Category:United States Presidential Election, 2020]]
[[Category:Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax]]

[[Category:Espionage]]

Bubba Watson

2019-11-03T00:35:36Z

JohnZ: Expand

'''Bubba Watson''' (born November 5, 1978) is an [[America]]n professional [[golf]]er. He was the surprise winner of the 2012 and 2014 [[Masters]]. His victory in 2012 is remembered primarily for his remarkable recovery shot from the pine straw on the second hole of the sudden-death playoff against Louis Oosthuizen:

{{quotebox|Blocked out by trees, he had no angle to the green, and so he invented his own—a physics-defying snap hook with a fifty-two-degree gap wedge that sailed toward the far side of the fairway before making a boomerang sweep to the right and, incredibly, settling on the green ten feet from the pin.<ref>https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2015/6/16/8782233/bubba-watson-profile-shane-ryan-slaying-the-tiger</ref><ref>[https://youtube.com/watch?v=W00lrCnG-B8 ESPN - Sport Science: Bubba Watson]</ref>}}

His prodigious ability to shape the ball both left and right, coupled with his power and distance, make Watson an exciting player to watch, but can often leave him wildly out of position when his game goes awry.

Raised in the panhandle of [[Florida]]—perhaps the most [[conservative]] area in the nation—Watson converted to [[Christianity]] as an adult and subsequently adopted a child with his wife, a 6'4" former women's basketball player.

Despite his newly found fame and demands on his time, Watson spent the weekend following his victory in 2012 by playing in [[Tim Tebow]]'s charity golf classic, which raises money to spread the Christian [[faith]] to those who have not yet benefited from it.

Outside his two Masters titles, Watson's form in major tournaments is poor, with 20 missed cuts and only three other top-10 finishes to date (T5, 2007 US Open; 2nd, 2010 PGA Championship; T5, 2018 Masters).<ref>To end of 2019 season</ref> He has twelve PGA Tour victories, including two World Golf Championship titles: the 2014 WGC-HSBC Champions and the 2018 WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play.<ref>http://www.owgr.com/Ranking/PlayerProfile.aspx?playerID=7334</ref>

== See also ==
[[Adoption success stories]]

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:Golf]]
[[Category:Adoption]]

Northern Ireland

2019-10-31T03:18:11Z

JohnZ: /* The Craigavon era (1921-1940) */ typo

{{Country
|name =''Northen Ireland''
|map =Ireland.jpg
|map2 =N. Ireland location.png
|flag =Flag of Northern Ireland.png
|arms =UK Royal Coat of Arms.png
|anthem =God Save the Queen
|capital =Belfast
|capital-raw =
|government =Constitutional Monarchy
|government-raw =
|language =English|Irish
|king =
|queen =Elizabeth II
|monarch-raw =
|president =
|president-raw =
|chancellor =
|chancellor-raw =
|pm =David Cameron
|pm-raw =
|area =13,843 sq mi
|pop =1,775,000 (2009)
|pop-basis =
|gdp =
|gdp-year =$33.2 billion (2002)
|gdp-pc =
|currency =[[Pound Sterling]]
|idd =
|tld =
}}

'''Northern Ireland''' (Irish: ''Tuaisceart Éireann'', Ulster-Scots: ''Norlin Airlann'') is one of the constituent countries of the [[United Kingdom]], which also includes [[England]], [[Scotland]] and [[Wales]]. Geographically, Northern Ireland occupies the northern portion of the island of [[Ireland]], with the [[Republic of Ireland]] occupying the remainder of the island. The capital of Northern Ireland is [[Belfast]].

Northern Ireland prohibited [[same-sex marriage|homosexual "marriage"]] long after England, Scotland, Wales, and the Republic of Ireland imposed it throughout the rest of the British Isles. However, in 2019, the UK parliament forced Northern Ireland to accept it in addition to abortion.<ref>Multiple references:
*Freiburger, Calvin (October 21, 2019). [https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/abortion-same-sex-marriage-coming-to-northern-ireland-at-midnight-as-assembly-fails-to-block Abortion, same-sex ‘marriage’ coming to Northern Ireland at midnight as assembly fails to block]. ''LifeSiteNews''. Retrieved October 21, 2019.
*Ferguson, Amanda (October 21, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nireland-abortion/northern-ireland-prepares-for-momentous-abortion-same-sex-marriage-changes-idUSKBN1X00G7 Northern Ireland prepares for momentous abortion, same-sex marriage changes]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 21, 2019.
*Pitofsky, Marina (October 22, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/466913-abortion-same-sex-marriage-officially-legalized-in-northern Abortion, same-sex marriage officially legalized in Northern Ireland]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved October 22, 2019.
See also;
*Bohon, Dave (October 30, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33888-doctors-clergy-in-northern-ireland-take-strong-stand-against-legalized-abortions-same-sex-marriage Doctors, Clergy in Northern Ireland Take Strong Stand Against Legalized Abortions, Same-Sex Marriage]. ''The New American''. Retrieved October 30, 2019.</ref>

== History ==
=== Early Years ===
Northern Ireland was created by the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and its existence effectively confirmed by the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1922, which formally concluded the Irish War of Independence. The country comprises six out of the nine counties in the province of [[Ulster]] - the six which contained majority Protestant (or balanced) populations in 1920. The three counties of Ulster with clear Catholic majorities became part of the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland was governed from Parliament Buildings at Stormont in [[Belfast]]; Northern Ireland also elected Members of Parliament to serve in the British Parliament in London.

===The Craigavon era (1921-1940)===
While [[Edward Carson]] had led the Unionist movement throughout Ireland, his right-hand man, Sir [[James Craig]] was more than able to take his place as leader of the Unionist movement in Northern Ireland. Craig acted as a broker between the Ulster Unionists and London in working out key details of the Government of Ireland Act of 1920. Craig helped reorganize the UVF as a separate unit to defend Northern Ireland against the IRA; this led to the formation of the Ulster Special Constabulary in November 1920. In 1921 there were pitched battles with IRA insurgents supported by Collins in Dublin. In January 1921 the new government of Northern Ireland began operations with Craig as Prime Minister.<ref>It moved to the Stormont estate in 1932, and was often called the Stormont government.</ref> Craig was helped by a weak Nationalist opposition - the Republicans and their more moderate Nationalist colleagues had been divided on how to deal with the new entity, as they wanted reunion with the South and not union with the UK. By contrast the Unionists were united and won repeated large majorities in the parliament (winning forty, compared to twelve seats combined for Nationalist and Republican candidates). Craig saw his priorities as establishing the new state on firm foundations; defending it against its enemies, within (who were loyal to Dublin) and without (the Irish Free State); preventing his over-zealous supporters from taking the law into their own hands (which might destabilize the state and bring intervention from London); and keeping a watchful eye on London, where Lloyd George by the spring of 1921 was anxious to reach a compromise with Sinn Féin.

The Stormont parliament gerrymandered electoral districts to minimise Catholic representation. In 1929, the Unionists abolished the system of proportional representation, set up by the British Parliament and used the first past the post system used in Britain. The new system hit the smaller parties the hardest, with Labour and Independent Unionists losing four seats in the election.<ref>John Whyte, "How much discrimination was there under the unionist regime, 1921-68?" in ''Contemporary Irish Studies,'' edited by Tom Gallagher and James O'Connell (1983), [http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/discrimination/whyte.htm online edition]</ref> When [[Eamon de Valera]] proclaimed Ireland was "a Catholic nation," Craig responded in 1934, that he stood for "a Protestant parliament and a Protestant state."<ref>Boyce (2004)</ref> In 1937 Éire approved a new constitution that claimed sovereignty over the entire island.<ref>Article 2 said "The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland;" article 3 claimed the "right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory." Article 9 added, "Fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State are fundamental political duties of all citizens." See [http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/docs/coi37a.htm#nation]</ref> With Éire claiming the entire island was rightfully theirs, Unionists were convinced that the Ulster Catholics were not loyal to King and country, and could not be trusted with responsibilities. Those Catholics who were elected to Stormont usually refused to take an oath of allegiance to the nation. Catholic protests at systematic discrimination in voting, housing and public resources formed the core of the civil rights movement in the 1960s. The historian of the Catholics asks, "how 'disloyal' were Catholics after partition?" and notes that Catholics who visibly supported the government were ostracized by other Catholics. She concludes, "It is certainly true that not until the 1960s were Catholics prepared to accept the legitimacy of the Northern Ireland state. But neither did they actively try to subvert it.... The bulk of northern Catholics remained, as they had always been, conservative, clerically-dominated, but utterly constitutional nationalists."<ref>Elliott, ''Catholics of Ulster'' (2001) p. 396</ref>

James Craig served as Prime Minister for an unbroken period of nineteen years, making this period popularly known as the 'Craigavon era', as he later became 'Lord Craigavon'.

===World War II===
The [[Great Depression]] was hard on the economy, with unemployment reaching 30%. In a total population of 1,280,000 (in 1937), regional unemployment was 72,000 in late 1940; it plunged to 19,000 (or 5%) by spring 1943. Full employment brought prosperity to all, and agriculture was mobilized for the war effort as well. In 1939 British Prime Minister [[Neville Chamberlain]]'s proposed military conscription in Northern Ireland; he was blocked by a common front of the government in Dublin, northern nationalists, and the Catholic bishops - as well as by the apathy of the Unionist rank-and-file. By 1941, to reinforce ties with Westminster, to ease unemployment, and to conceal the low level of loyalist enlistments the Stormont government again requested conscription. [[Winston Churchill]] rejected the drafting of Irishmen, due to adamant opposition from Dublin and objections from the United States. However, volunteering for military service was enthusiastic among the Protestants.<ref>Joseph L. Rosenberg, "Irish Conscription: 1941." ''Éire-ireland'' 1979 14(1): 16-25. Issn: 0013-2683</ref>

Northern Ireland was a vital strategic area of control for Britain during the war; its ports compensating for the loss of Ireland's ports under the 1938 revised treaty. Americans soldiers made a major economic impact and social. German air raids in April and May, 1941, killed 1,110 people with over 2,000 injured; over 50,000 houses were hit damaged and 100,000 people made homeless.

Belfast, a vital industrial city, played a major role in the war providing ships, weapons, ammunition, army clothes, parachutes and a host of other equipment to the war effort. While Unionists in Northern Ireland were deeply and personally involved in the war effort, the Catholic communities were luke-warm at best.<ref>Philip Ollerenshaw, "War, Industrial Mobilisation and Society in Northern Ireland, 1939-1945." ''Contemporary European History'' 2007 16(2): 169-197. Issn: 0960-7773</ref>

Politics was in turmoil during the war. Craig's death (in November 1940) led to the unfortunate choice of John Andrews (1871-1956), the minister of finance; he was indecisive and refused to purge the old ministerial "gang." The Andrews government collapsed in 1943 under mounting criticism that it was incompetent. The lack of preparation for the German air raids of April–May 1941 alarmed everyone; other grievances rose from its mishandling of the conscription question, its temporary suspension of Belfast corporation, the upsurge in labour strikes, and the inadequacy of its post-war planning. The aristocrat Basil Brooke became prime minister, serving 1943-1963.

===1945-1969===
After the war the departure of Éire from the Commonwealth in 1949 brought constitutional assurance that Northern Ireland would remain part of the UK as long as a majority there so wished. The new Labour government in London worked well with the conservative Unionists in Belfast, for the Unionist Party welcomed the increased spending on welfare (which helped further differentiate it from Éire). Renewed economic growth helped ensure that the 1950s and early 1960s were Northern Ireland's most harmonious and promising years; its post-war experience contrasted starkly with the relative stagnation and isolation of the south. Unionist confidence led to the willingness of some party members to consider reform, as the political system had long been notoriously corrupt and inefficient. Meanwhile, the voting behaviour of the Catholic minority, its increasing political activism, and the collapse of the IRA campaign of 1956–62 all suggested that Catholics were becoming more reconciled to permanent partition, but they were still angry at the restricted local government franchise, gerrymandering, religious discrimination by government and business, and the inadequacy of state funding for Catholic schools.<ref>Barton, "Brooke" 2004</ref>

Brooke's refusal to initiate fundamental reform was due in large part to his concern for Unionist unity. Regarding the Catholics, his strategy was based on the hope that welfare programs and sustained prosperity would eventually dissolve their nationalist aspirations. Brooke rejected those Liberal Unionists who sought to recruit Catholics into the Unionist Party. He retired in 1963. Catholics always criticized anti-Catholic policies and resented James Craig's call for "a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people."<ref>Bardon, J. (1992). A History of Ulster. The Blackstaff Press, Belfast, pp. 539.</ref>

=== Civil Rights Movement ===
Violently opposed to the existence of Northern Ireland was the terrorist group the [[Irish Republican Army]], or [[IRA]]. The IRA was originally formed to fight the British during the War of Independence. Many IRA members refused to accept the Anglo-Irish treaty's partition of the island into two separate countries, leading to the bloody Irish Civil War of 1922-23, in which IRA was decisively defeated. The new nation of Ireland officially claimed the whole island but unofficially recognized the existence of the north and did nothing to upset the status quo. However, the anti-treaty IRA forces continued to refer to themselves as the IRA after the civil war concluded, and to consider themselves the legitimate government of Ireland.

During the late 1960s, partially inspired by the civil rights movement in the [[United States]], Catholics in Northern Ireland began to protest against perceived discrimination by the government. Protests were initially led by the [[Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association]], or NICRA, which was founded in January 1967. NICRA's demands included repeal of the Special Powers Act, the end of the paramilitary B Specials police force, an end to the [[gerrymandering]] in local elections, and an end to discrimination in terms of government housing and government employment.

Protests typically took the form of marches or other demonstrations. One of the most important protests took place on January 1, 1969, when a group from the student People's Democracy organisation organized a march from Belfast to [[Londonderry]], intended to imitate [[Martin Luther King, Jr.]]'s marches from Selma to Montgomery. The march was repeatedly attacked by unionists (People wanting to retain the 'Union' of Northern Ireland with Great Britain), including off-duty policemen. The most intense violence occurred at Burntollet Bridge, where the marchers were attacked by 200 unionists while police did little to intervene.

=== The Troubles: 1969-1998 ===
"The Troubles" refers to a 30-year period of terrorism and civil unrest. The Troubles are generally considered to have begun with civil rights movement and the violent unionist response. Northern Ireland prime minister Terrence O'Neill at first responded favorably to the demands of the protestors, but this attitude was decried by other unionists, including [[Ian Paisley]]. Many unionists believed that NICRA was controlled by the [[IRA]]. Following the violence at Burntollet Bridge, nationalists in the city of Derry began to erect barricades to protect themselves. This led to the Battle of the Bogside between nationalists and police prior to a unionist march that was scheduled to pass the nationalist Bogside area of the city. The Battle of the Bogside lasted from August 12 to 14, 1969 before British troops were called to resolve the situation. In the meantime, fierce rioting broke out in other parts of the country, including Belfast, Newry, and Strabane. In total, 7 people were killed and 750 injured during the unrest in August 1969, and 1,500 Catholic families and 500 Protestant families were forced from their homes. The Northern Ireland government then requested the presence of British troops throughout the country to keep order.

The violence of the Troubles peaked during the early 1970s, spurred by an influx of recruits to various terrorist organisations, including the republican [[IRA]] and the loyalist [[Ulster Defence Association]] and [[Ulster Volunteer Force]]. A number of events combined to widen the divide between the nationalist and unionist communities. For nationalists, these included the Falls Curfew of July 1970, in which British troops cordoned off nationalist neighborhoods in Belfast, not allowing residents in or out of the area; 4 nationalists were killed in fighting between British troops and the IRA. The introduction of internment without trial in August 1971 was viewed by nationalists as discriminatory, as 348 of the first 350 people interned were nationalists. Of nearly 2,000 people interned over the next four years, 94.6% were nationalists. For unionists, IRA actions similarly hardened their positions. For example, the IRA carried out 1,300 bombings by the end of 1972, largely against commercial targets, considerably disrupting everyday life and often resulting in the deaths of uninvolved civilians. The worst example during this period is known as Bloody Friday, when the IRA set off 22 bombs on July 21, 1972, causing 9 deaths and 130 injuries. The IRA provided warnings to security forces via the media, but given the number of bombs planted did not give sufficient time to allow the security forces to evacuate the areas. In some cases, ambiguous warnings led to people being led toward, rather than away from, bombs about to be detonated.

In 1972 the UK government, deeming the Northern Ireland government unable to stabilise the situation, suspended the Northern Ireland parliament and instituted direct rule from London. While direct rule was intended as a temporary measure, it continued throughout the course of the Troubles.

== Current Government ==

{| class="wikitable" style="float:right"
|- bgcolor=cccccc
! Position || Current Holder
|-
| [[British monarchy|Monarch]] || Queen [[Elizabeth II]]
|-
| [[UK Prime Ministers|Prime Minister]] || [[David Cameron]] MP
|-
| [[Secretary of State for Northern Ireland|Secretary of State]] || [[Shaun Woodward]] MP
|-
| [[First Minister of Northern Ireland|First Minister]] || [[Peter Robinson]] MP MLA
|-
| [[Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland|Deputy First Minister]] || [[Martin McGuinness]] MP MLA
|}

Although constitutionally the United Kingdom is a unitary state with one sovereign, parliament and government - there has been moves to give power to national legislature in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, this has taken the form of devolution. Power for certain areas of government like education, health and the environment are fully the responsibility of their national governments. However, central government maintains the right to overturn any decision by a national assembly, as such the [[Parliament of the United Kingom]] remains sovereign in the United Kingdom as a whole.

=== Devolution ===

The current political set-up in Northern Ireland stems from the [[Belfast Agreement]] of 1998 which provided for an elected [[Northern Ireland Assembly]] and a power-sharing [[Northern Ireland Executive]] to be jointly headed by the leaders of the main Unionist and Nationalist parties.

==Bibliography==
===Guides===
* ''Northern Ireland'' (Bradt Travel Guide) by Richard Human (2010)
* ''Rick Steves' Snapshot Northern Ireland'' by Rick Steves and Pat O'Connor (2009)
===Recent===
* Bruce, Steve. ''Paisley: Religion and Politics in Northern Ireland'' (2009) [https://www.amazon.com/Paisley-Religion-Politics-Northern-Ireland/dp/0199565716/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263705934&sr=1-6 excerpt and text search]
* Coulter, Colin, and Michael Murray, eds. ''Northern Ireland After the Troubles?: A Society In Transition'' (2008)
* Dixon, Paul. ''Northern Ireland: The Politics of War and Peace'' by Paul Dixon (2008) [https://www.amazon.com/Northern-Ireland-Politics-War-Peace/dp/0230507794/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263705934&sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]
* Donnelly, James S., ed. ''Encyclopedia of Irish History and Culture.'' (2004). 1084 pp.
* Gillespie, Gordon. ''The A to Z of the Northern Ireland Conflict'' (2009)
* Lalor, Brian. (ed), ''The Encyclopedia of Ireland'' (2003)
* McEvoy, Joanne. ''The Politics of Northern Ireland'' (2008) [https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Northern-Ireland-Study-Guides/dp/0748625011/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263705934&sr=1-10 excerpt and text search]

===History===
* Adamson, Ian. ''The Identity of Ulster,'' 2nd edition (Belfast, 1987)
* Aughey, Arthur. ''The Politics of Northern Ireland: Beyond the Belfast Agreement'' (2005) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=109134357 online edition]
* Bardon, Jonathan. ''A History of Ulster'' (Belfast, 1992.)
* Barton, Brian. "Brooke, Basil Stanlake, first Viscount Brookeborough (1888–1973)", Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, 2004 online
* Barton, Brian. "Northern Ireland: the Impact of War, 1939-1945" in Brian Girvin and Geoffrey Roberts, eds. ''Ireland and the Second World War: Politics, Society and Remembrance,'' Dublin: Four Courts Press, 2000.
* Bew, Paul, Peter Gibbon and Henry Patterson, ''Northern Ireland 1921-1994: Political Forces and Social Classes'' (1995)
* Boyce, D. George "Craig, James, first Viscount Craigavon (1871–1940)", ''Oxford Dictionary of National Biography'' (2004); online edn, May 2006
* Brady, Claran, Mary O'Dowd and Brian Walker, eds. ''Ulster: An Illustrated History'' (1989)
* Brady, Ciaran, ed. ''The Encyclopedia of Ireland: An A-Z Guide to Its People, Places, History, and Culture.'' (2000). 390 pp.
* Buckland, Patrick. ''A History of Northern Ireland'' (Dublin, 1981)
* Buckland, Patrick. "Andrews, John Miller (1871–1956)" ''Oxford Dictionary of National Biography,'' 2004, online
* Connolly, S. J. ed. ''The Oxford Companion to Irish History'' (1998) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=74356275 online edition]
* Cunliffe, Barry et al., ed. ''The Penguin Atlas of British and Irish History.'' 320 pp.
* Donnelly, James S., ed. ''Encyclopedia of Irish History and Culture.'' (2004). 1084 pp.
* Elliott, Marianne. ''The Catholics of Ulster: A History.'' Basic Books. 2001. [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=86066470# online edition]
* Farrell, Michael. ''Northern Ireland: The Orange State,'' 2nd edition (1980)
* Farrington, Christopher. ''Ulster Unionism and the Peace Process in Northern Ireland.'' Palgrave Macmillan, 2006. 214 pp.
* Fitzpatrick, David. ''The Two Irelands, 1912-1939'' (1998) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=35624465 online edition]
* Hachey, Thomas E., Joseph M. Hernon Jr., Lawrence J. McCaffrey; ''The Irish Experience: A Concise History'' M. E. Sharpe, 1996 [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=3955678 online edition]
* Harbinson, John F. ''The Ulster Unionist Party 1882–1973'' (Belfast: Blackstaff, 1973)
* Henessy, Thomas. ''A History of Northern Ireland, 1920-1996.'' St. Martin's, 1998. 365 pp.
* Hickey, D. J. and Doherty, J. E. ''A Dictionary of Irish History since 1800.'' Barnes & Noble, 1980. 615 pp.
* Jackson, Alvin. "Unionist Myths 1912-1985" ''Past and Present,'' No. 136 (Aug., 1992), pp. 164–185 [http://links.jstor.org.proxy.cc.uic.edu/sici?sici=0031-2746%28199208%29136%3C164%3AUM1%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H online at JSTOR]
* Lalor, Brian. (ed), ''The Encyclopedia of Ireland'' (2003)
* McGarry, John, and Brendan O'Leary. ''The Northern Ireland Conflict: Consociational Engagements'' (2004) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=109868505 online edition]
* McGarry. John, and Brendan O'Leary. ''Explaining Northern Ireland'' (Blackwells, 1995)
* Mitchel, Patrick. ''Evangelicalism and National Identity in Ulster, 1921-1998'' (2003) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=110604523 online edition]
* Mulholland, Marc. ''Northern Ireland at the Crossroads: Ulster Unionism in the O'Neill Years, 1960-9'' (2000) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=90740320 online edition]
* Mulholland, Marc. ''Northern Ireland: A Very Short Introduction'' (Oxford University Press, 2002), 172 pp [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=101645647 online edition]
* Rose, Richard, and Gustave de Beaumont. "The Dynamics of a Divided Regime" ''Government and Opposition'' 5 (2), 166–192. Influential political science study based on surveys in mid 1960s; online at [[Blackwell Synergy]].
* Smith, M. L. R. ''Fighting for Ireland?'' (1995), on the IRA
* Whyte, John. ''Interpreting Northern Ireland'' (1990)
* Wright, Frank. ''Northern Ireland: A Comparative Perspective'' (1987)

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:United Kingdom]]
[[Category:Northern Ireland| ]]
[[Category:British History]]
[[Category:Ireland]]
[[Category:Irish History]]

Catherine the Great

2019-10-30T01:02:20Z

JohnZ: subbed

[[File:Antropov Portrait of Catherine the Great.jpg|thumb|Portrait by Alexei Antropov, ca. 1773.]]
'''Catherine the Great''' (Russian: Екатерина II Великая) (1729-1796) was the powerful empress of [[Russia]] (1762-1796) who ruled as an [[Enlightened despotism|enlightened despot]]. After the [[French Revolution]], she rejected the [[Enlightenment]]. She is remembered for leading her country into full participation in the political and cultural life of [[Europe]], and for advancing the [[Partitions of Poland]].

==Background==
Catherine was a princess of the petty German principality Anhalt-Zerbst. She was well educated and, like many other European nobles in the 18th century, heavily influenced by [[France|French]] culture. Aged fifteen, she left for Russia to marry Peter of Holstein-Gottorp in 1744. Converting to [[Orthodox Christian]]ity, she learned Russian upon her arrival in the country. Peter was both a miserable husband and leader. She led a successful coup against him in 1762, resulting in his death and her coronation as Empress Catherine II.

==Empress==
Catherine reigned from 1762 to 1796. She was initially looked at with suspicion, as she had no title to the crown, and had ascended to power due to a palace revolution. She gradually gained in popularity, especially among Enlightenment thinkers such as [[Voltaire]], [[Diderot]], and [[Rousseau]].

Catherine's despotic rule and personal morality suffered from similar moral failures as a great many men in power. She did, however, attempt to open up governance, suggesting that her instinct was toward egalitarianism. Yet she also reinforced [[feudalism]] by tightening the tie between [[serf]]s and their overlords.

== See also ==

*[[Russian painting]]

==Further reading==
* Alexander, John T. ''Catherine the Great: Life and Legend'' (1989), the standard biography

[[Category:Czars]]
[[Category:Queens]]
[[Category:Russian History]]

Tiger Woods

2019-10-29T03:37:53Z

JohnZ: Tied Snead's record + major championships

'''Eldrick Tont Woods''' (born 1975), who goes by his nickname, Tiger, is a professional [[golf]]er. He has won only 1 major golf tournament in the past 10 years. In his career, he has won 15 majors, second only to [[Jack Nicklaus]]' record haul of 18. On October 27, 2019, Woods tied Sam Snead's record of 82 PGA Tour victories.<ref>https://www.pgatour.com/news/2019/10/27/tiger-woods-ties-sam-snead-82-wins-pga-tour-record-zozo-championship.html</ref>

Woods' 2000-01 run of four consecutive major titles is the greatest of the modern era. Dubbed the "Tiger Slam" by the media, he won the 2000 US Open, the 2000 Open Championship, the 2000 PGA Championship and the 2001 [[Masters]]. It is currently the closest any golfer has come to replicating Bobby Jones' true (single season) grand slam of the 1930 Open Championship, 1930 US Open, 1930 US Amateur and the 1930 British Amateur (the major titles of his day).<ref>https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/tour/us-masters/masters-history-records/players-won-golf-grand-slam-154520</ref>

Woods is perhaps the most self-centered and overpromoted favorite of the [[liberal media]] in the world. He appears frequently on magazine covers and Nike ads, and after a gap of eleven years since winning a major tournament, finally regained the [[Masters]] title in 2019. His remarks to the press are often self-centered. At the Masters in 2013, he was given merely a two-stroke penalty for a rules infraction that many felt should have resulted in disqualification from the tournament.<ref>http://omg.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/tiger-woods-responds-disqualification-controversy-masters-lindsey-vonn-161536057.html</ref>

In 2012, the liberal media declared Woods to be a favorite to win the [[Masters]]. In fact, he turned in his worst performance there in 17 years, and his swearing and kicking of a club were captured by a camera. After he learned that people did not appreciate that, he declared:<ref>http://www.augusta.com/masters/story/news/latest-news/woods-offers-apology-masters-behavior</ref>
{{cquote|I certainly heard that people didn’t like me kicking the club. I didn’t like it either. I hit it in the bunker, and it didn’t feel good on my toe, either.}}
Despite showing promise of becoming the greatest golfer ever, Woods's career and athletic achievement slumped amid reports of adultery. His wife subsequently obtained a divorce.<ref>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/ap_on_sp_go_ne/glf_tiger_woods</ref>

He has had five knee operations, including the removal of a benign tumor and also a cyst.<ref>https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351418,00.html</ref><ref>http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news02/woods51.html</ref><ref>https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-announces-he-underwent-surgery-on-his-left-knee</ref>

==Major championships==
*Masters Tournament: 1997, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2019
*PGA Championship: 1999, 2000, 2006, 2007
*US Open: 2000, 2002, 2008
*The Open Championship: 2000, 2005, 2006

== References ==
<references/>

==See also==
*[[Deceit]]
*[[Sexual immorality]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Woods, Tiger}}
[[Category:Athletes]]
[[Category:Buddhists]]
[[Category:Golfers]]
[[Category:Presidential Medal of Freedom award winners]]

Brexit

2019-10-29T01:38:09Z

JohnZ: Reason for May's resignation

[[File:United Kingdom EU referendum 2016 area results.svg.png|thumb|250px|Brexit results. Blue-shaded areas stand for council areas that voted "Leave". Orange stands for "Remain".]]
:''For the political philosophy in favor of Brexit, see [[Euroskepticism]]''
'''Brexit''' is a repudiation of [[globalism]] and the campaign slogan for "Britain's Exit" from the [[European Union]]. The British people became the first nation to vote on a referendum whether or not to remain in membership to the EU, on June 23, 2016. The historic vote shocked the world as the Leave campaign won by a 52–48% margin. Prime Minister [[David Cameron]] campaigned to remain in the EU and was humiliated by the outcome, whereupon he resigned his position. Former London Mayor [[Boris Johnson]] was a leader of the Leave camp, though previously supporting Remain. Regaining [[self-governance]] and [[sovereignty]] were the top reasons for leaving the EU,<ref>[https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/brexit-is-at-bottom-about-self-rule Brexit is, at bottom, about self-rule]. ''Washington Examiner''. March 24, 2019. Retrieved March 24, 2019.</ref> and the difficulty in leaving was the result of having surrendered control to the EU in the first place.<ref>Barnes, Fred (September 26, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/american-independence American independence]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved September 28, 2019.</ref>

On May 24, 2019, this issue caused the resignation of the prime minister of the [[United Kingdom]], as [[Theresa May]] tearfully announced she would step down due to her inability to secure a parliamentary majority for the Brexit deal her government had negotiated with the EU. [[Boris Johnson]], an advocate of a "no-deal Brexit" (i.e., leaving the EU without any agreement), was victorious in replacing Mrs. May.

Polling prior to the referendum indicated a tight race, with 44% preferring to stay (anti-Brexit) and 42% supporting leaving the EU (Brexit), as of April 17, 2016.<ref>https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/</ref> Two weeks after [[Barack Obama]] gave his support to Cameron and chided Britain to stay in the EU, a survey says Brexit gained 3% who want out.<ref>[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-poll-idUSKCN0XP0PO? Obama fails to swing Britain behind EU as 'Out' takes poll lead, Reuters, April 28, 2016]</ref> Final results showed "Leave" with 52% of the vote to "Remain" with 48%, a margin that was 5 points better than polling. This was despite the fact that the "Remain" side was fined several times for cheating and lack of transparency, and despite the British government sending fliers to every citizen to urge them to vote "Remain."<ref>Kassam, Raheem (March 25, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/03/25/5-ways-brexit-remain-camp-cheated-still-lost/ 5 Ways the Remain Camp Cheated During Brexit…. And Still Lost!] ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 25, 2018.</ref> After the election, many British voters felt betrayed by their politicians who undermined and threatened Brexit.<ref>Kilcoyne, Clodagh; Ledwith, Sara (April 4, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-coast-insight/in-brexit-on-sea-the-left-behind-still-want-out-idUSKCN1RG0GZ In Brexit-on-Sea, the left-behind still want Out]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved April 4, 2019.</ref><ref>https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/britain-eu-coast/</ref><ref>Lawless, Jill (September 9, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/b9c08875fe4f4257bbe262f6d3798152 Britain’s Brexit heartland seethes at delay and ‘betrayal’]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.</ref>

The British High Court ruled on November 3, 2016, that the British government could not unilaterally begin formal exit negotiations with the EU, but rather that parliamentary approval via an Act of Parliament is needed to permit the British Government to trigger Article 50 and begin the withdrawal process.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37857785 Brexit court defeat for UK government]. ''BBC''. November 3, 2016. Retrieved December 16, 2016.</ref> The British government appealed the decision to the Supreme Court, skipping the Court of Appeal. On the 1st of February 2017, the British House of Commons approved beginning Brexit negotiations.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38833883 Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill]. ''BBC''. February 1, 2017. Retrieved February 3, 2017.</ref> Amendments were later made in the House of Lords, and each amendment was refused by the House of Commons. The bill eventually became law and on the 29th of March, Theresa May triggered Article 50 and began the withdrawal process from the [[European Union]].

Prime Minister [[Theresa May]] officially initiated Brexit on March 29, 2017.<ref>Suarez Sang, Lucia I. (March 29, 2017). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/03/29/brexit-triggered-u-k-prime-minister-sends-letter-to-european-union-to-begin-exit.html Brexit triggered: UK prime minister sends letter to European Union to begin divorce]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved March 29, 2017.</ref><ref>[https://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03/29/triggered/ TRIGGERED: Britain Invokes Article 50 to Begin Brexit Process]. ''Breitbart News''. March 29, 2017. Retrieved March 29, 2017.</ref> In the Brexit negotiations, the EU parliament has a very powerful role, and has ruled out certain things the British Government was hoping to achieve (such as trade agreements with individual nation-states, rather than the European Union as an entity), thus acting as a bully to Britain.<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/05/eu-legislators-tell-uk-on-brexit-no-parallel-talks.html EU legislators tell UK on Brexit: no parallel talks]. ''Fox News'' (from the ''Associated Press''). April 5, 2017. Retrieved April 5, 2017.</ref> Run by weak [[establishment]] and [[globalist]] politicians, the UK had serious trouble agreeing to leave the EU as voters demanded.<ref>Byas, Steve (September 25, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33506-britain-s-struggle-to-leave-the-eu-demonstrates-the-tenacity-of-globalists Britain’s Struggle to Leave the EU Demonstrates the Tenacity of Globalists]. ''The New American''. Retrieved September 25, 2019.</ref>

Conservatives pushed back against the establishment attempt to nullify Brexit, with [[Nigel Farage]] forming the [[Brexit Party]] in April 2019.

== Eligible voters ==
*Voters must have been 18 or older
*British, Commonwealth or Irish citizen who resided in Britain.
*British nationals who lived overseas for less than 15 years could also vote.

==Economic impact==
Prior to the referendum, the Left and establishment claimed that approving Brexit would lead to terrible economic ruin for the UK. Pro-Brexiteers labeled this hysteria "Project Fear." Financial giants warned the British of credit downgrades. The British Pound dropped significantly as results started pouring in showing Leave doing better than expected.

Contrary to claims by anti-Brexit activists, the British economy did well, and it even improved after the referendum.<ref>Kim, Anthony B.; Devlin, Bradley (June 21, 2019). [https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/06/21/3-years-after-brexit-vote-dire-warnings-for-uk-economy-have-proved-wrong/ 3 Years After Brexit Vote, Dire Warnings for UK Economy Have Proved Wrong]. ''The Daily Signal''. Retrieved June 22, 2019.</ref> In early 2017, the chief economist of the Bank of England admitted that hysteric [[establishment]] predictions of economic gloom from a pro-Brexit result were wrong and inaccurate.<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/06/bank-england-economist-brexit-predictions-were-wrong.html Bank of England economist: Brexit predictions were wrong]. ''Fox News''. January 6, 2017. Retrieved January 6, 2017.</ref> The British finance ministry admitted the same in January 2018.<ref>[https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/26/reuters-treasury-says-pre-referendum-brexit-economy-forecasts-no-longer-valid/ Reuters: Treasury Says Pre-Referendum ‘Project Fear’ Forecasts No Longer Valid]. ''Breitbart News''. January 26, 2018. Retrieved January 26, 2018.</ref> In 2017, British manufacturing grew at its fastest rate since early 2008.<ref>Deacon, Liam (January 11, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/11/uk-manufacturing-growing-fastest-rate-decade-brexit-vote/ UK Manufacturing Growing at Fastest Rate in a Decade After Brexit Vote]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 11, 2018.</ref> Despite contrary claims by "Remain" campaigners, the British Pound climbed to pre-Brexit vote levels in January 2018.<ref>[https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/23/sterling-climbs-1-40-new-post-brexit-vote-high/ Sterling Climbs Above $1.40 to New Post-Brexit-Vote High]. ''Breitbart News''. January 23, 2018. Retrieved January 23, 2018.</ref> Employment also rose.<ref>[https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/24/reuters-uk-employment-surges-record-high-wages-increase/ REUTERS: UK Employment Surges to Record High, Wages Increase]. ''Breitbart News''. January 24, 2018. Retrieved January 24, 2018.</ref> By 2018, British export levels reached the highest level since 2010.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (March 8, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/03/08/british-exports-strongest-since-2010-pre-referendum-recession-threats/ Brexit Boom: British Exports Strongest Since 2010, Defying Pre-Referendum Recession Threats]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 8, 2018.</ref> Car manufacturing and investment also increased significantly in 2018.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (February 4, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/02/04/uk-enjoys-surge-car-manufacturing-millions-invested-new-factories/ Brexit-pocalypse? Surge in UK Car Manufacturing, Huge Investment in Research Centres, New Factories]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved February 4, 2019.</ref> The Office for National Statistics found in February 2019 that the British economy was growing faster than that of the [[Eurozone]].<ref>Montgomery, Jack (February 15, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/02/15/british-economy-defies-anti-brexiteers-outpace-europe/ British Economy Defies Anti-Brexiteers to Outpace Europe]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved February 15, 2019.</ref> European investment more than doubled in nearly three years after the vote.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (March 5, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/05/brexit-boost-european-investment-in-uk-more-than-doubles-since-brexit-vote/ Brexit Boost: European Investment in UK More Than Doubles Since Brexit Vote]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 5, 2019.</ref> In July 2019, the British economy increased more than expected.<ref>Bruce, Andy; Cable, Jonathan (September 9, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-economy/uk-economy-shows-unexpected-strength-in-july-dampening-recession-fears-idUSKCN1VU0S5 UK economy shows unexpected strength in July, dampening recession fears]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.</ref> London's status as a capital for finance remained despite contrary claims by anti-Brexiteers.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (October 16, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/16/project-fear-wrong-again-london-remains-a-finance-capital-growth-since-2016-brexit-vote/ Project Fear Wrong Again: London Remains a Finance Capital, Growth Since 2016 Brexit Vote]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 16, 2019.</ref>

Despite the economic growth, anti-Brexit activists continued to predict "doom-and-gloom" economic scenarios.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (January 11, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/11/project-fear-redux-economy-surges-khan-predict-disaster/ Project Fear Redux: As Economy Surges, Anti-Brexit Economists Predict Disaster in Report Funded by Sadiq Khan]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 11, 2018.</ref> However, former prime minister [[David Cameron]], who supported the "Remain" campaign, admitted in January 2018 that Brexit "turned out less badly than we first thought" despite continuing to voice displeasure about it.<ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (January 24, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/24/david-cameron-davos-brexit-turned-less-badly-first-thought/ David Cameron at Davos: ‘Brexit Has Turned Out Less Badly Than We First Thought’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 24, 2018.</ref>

Anti-Brexit advocates continued promoting Project Fear, or "Project Hysteria," regarding a potential no-deal "Hard Brexit."<ref>Friedman, Victoria (September 17, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/09/17/project-hysteria-dire-predictions-no-deal-brexit-sandwiches-space-debris-falling-sky/ ‘Project Hysteria’: Dire No-Deal Brexit Predictions from the End of Sandwiches to the Sky Falling in]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 17, 2018.</ref><ref>Delingpole, James (November 29, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/29/uk-establishment-ramps-up-brexit-hysteria-more-lies/ Delingpole: Brexit Project Fear Gives Way to Project Hysteria]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 29, 2018.</ref>

Crawford Falconer, the UK's main trade negotiator, admitted in July 2019 that Britain had very little influence in international trade policy as an member of the European Union.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (July 16, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/16/britains-chief-trade-negotiator-admits-very-little-influence-world-trade-eu-member/ Britain’s Chief Trade Negotiator: UK Has ‘Very Little Influence’ on World Trade While an EU Member]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 16, 2019.</ref>

== Secular leftists, Brexit and mental illness ==

''See also:'' [[Secular leftists and psychogenic illness]]

There is a considerable amount of scientific evidence that suggests that [[theism]] is more conducive to mental and physical health than [[atheism]] (See:[[Atheism and health]]).<ref>Multiple references:
*Mueller, Dr. Paul S. et al. (December 2001). [http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196%2811%2962799-7/fulltext "Religious involvement, spirituality, and medicine: implications for clinical practice"]. ''Mayo Clinic Proceedings'' vol. 76:12, pp. 1225-1235. Retrieved from Mayo Clinic Proceedings website on July 20, 2014.
*[http://www.spiritualityandhealth.duke.edu/index.php/research/research-library "Research library"]. Duke University Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health. Retrieved on July 24, 2014.
*McCullough, Michael E. et al. (2000). [http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/rel_mort_meta.pdf "Religious involvement and mortality: a meta-analytic review"]. ''Health Psychology''. vol. 19:3. pp. 211-222. Retrieved from University of Miami, College of Arts and Sciences, Department of Psychology website on July 24, 2014.
*Casey, Professor Patricia (April 3, 2009). [http://www.ionainstitute.ie/pdfs/Religion-Exec_summary.pdf "The psycho-social benefits of religious practise" [executive summary]]. Iona Institute for Religion and Society [Ireland] website. Retrieved on July 24, 2014.
*McCullough, Michael E. and Willoughby, Brian L. B. (2009). [http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/mmccullough/Papers/Relig_self_control_bulletin.pdf "Religion, self-regulation, and self-control: associations, explanations, and implications"]. ''Psychological Bulletin'', vol. 135: 1, pp. 69–93. Retrieved from University of Miami, College of Arts and Sciences, Department of Psychology website on July 24, 2014.
*University of Colorado at Boulder (May 17, 1999). [https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/05/990517064323.htm "Research shows religion plays a major role in health, longevity"]. ScienceDaily. Retrieved on July 24, 2014.
*Dervic, Kanita, et al. (December 2004). [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15569904 "Religious affiliation and suicide attempt" [abstract]]. ''The American Journal of Psychiatry'', vol. 161:12, pp. 2303-8. Abstract retrieved from National Institutes of Health, U.S. National Library of Medicine, National Center for Biotechnology Information, Pub Med on July 24, 2014.
*University of Warwick (December 2003). [http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2003/A/20037338.html "Psychology researcher [Dr. Stephen Joseph] says spiritual meaning of Christmas brings more happiness than materialism"]. Scienceblog. Retrieved on July 24, 2014.</ref> In addition, atheists have higher suicide rates (see: [[Atheism and suicide]] and [[Atheism and depression]]).

Politically, most atheists fall on the left side of the political spectrum (see: [[Atheism and politics]] and [[Secular left]]).

The [[New Atheism|new atheist]] [[Richard Dawkins]] was against Brexit.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39218108 Richard Dawkins: Brits have not spoken on Brexit], BBC</ref> Dawkins is a liberal/leftist.<ref>[https://richarddawkins.net/2013/08/religion-and-politics/ Religion and Politics], Richard Dawkins' website</ref> Most leftists were against Brexit.

A Eurobarometer poll in 2010 reported that 37% of UK citizens "believed there is a God", 33% believe there is "some sort of spirit or life force" and 25% answered "I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".<ref>[http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_341_en.pdf Special Eurobarometer, biotechnology, p. 204"]. Fieldwork: Jan-Feb 2010.</ref> See also: [[British atheism]]

''[[The Guardian]]'' reported about Brexit:
{{Cquote|In shrinks’ offices across the country, just as in homes, pubs and offices, people are trying to come to terms with the surprise and shock of the Brexit result. Strangers gather together to talk of how “the world is falling apart”.

Many people feel transported into a dystopian Britain that they “do not recognise, cannot understand”. Thousands are hatching plans to leave the country. Social media are full of suddenly violent flaming between former friends.

Therapists everywhere are reporting shockingly elevated levels of anxiety and despair, with few patients wishing to talk about anything else. Mental health referrals have already begun to mushroom. Why is the Brexit vote affecting us so personally? And, what does this tell us about the make-up of our psyches?<ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/29/eu-referendum-mental-health-vote The EU referendum has caused a mental health crisis] by Jay Watts, The Guardian</ref>}}

The columnist Patrick West wrote in his article ''The Post-Brexit Ugliness of the left'':
{{Cquote|The liberal-left couldn’t understand why people would vote in the name of abstract principles such as ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘self-determination’, because they view everything in terms of their own money and their own public image.

There was a time when it was Tories who sneered at the poor, who deplored them as stupid and feckless. This was in the loadsamoney era of the 1980s, during which the market ruled and we were beholden to the whims of capitalists and the sainted market. There was even a time, many years ago, when the left spoke of principles, of democracy and liberty. How the roles have been reversed. How strange that it’s mostly conservatives who now talk in abstractions, and it’s the left that obsesses about the markets and worry about the FTSE 100, about their own money.<ref>[http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-post-brexit-ugliness-of-the-left/18538 ''The Post-Brexit Ugliness of the left''] by Patrick West</ref>}}

==Process for leaving the EU==
Even before the process for leaving the EU began, globalists planned on sabotaging Brexit in the hope that the UK would retain much of its vassalage to the EU or even remain in the EU outright.<ref>Jasper, William F. (August 16, 2016). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/23880-is-new-brit-pm-theresa-may-sabotaging-brexit-with-endless-delays Is New Brit PM Theresa May Sabotaging Brexit With Endless Delays?] ''The New American''. Retrieved June 1, 2019. See also:
*Jasper, William F. (May 31, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/32487-as-smoke-clears-on-eu-elections-cfr-highlights-nationalist-globalist-clash As Smoke Clears on EU Elections: CFR Highlights Nationalist-Globalist Clash]. ''The New American''. Retrieved June 1, 2019.</ref>

Despite British leaders' reluctance for achieving a "no deal" hard Brexit, Professor Patrick Minford of Cardiff University estimated that such an exit would actually cost the EU £507 billion with the UK gaining £641 billion.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (January 15, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/15/study-no-deal-cost-eu-507bn-britain-gains-641bn/ Study: ‘No Deal’ Will Cost the EU £507bn, While Britain Gains £641bn]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 15, 2018.</ref> The British establishment claimed that a "no deal" Brexit would have disastrous consequences for Britain, similar to "Project Fear" prior to the referendum, despite the lack of evidence.<ref>Multiple references:
*Jasper, William F. (December 24, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31015-will-no-deal-brexit-cause-horrible-chaos-as-globalist-elites-claim Will “No Deal” Brexit Cause “Horrible Chaos” as Globalist Elites Claim?] ''The New American''. Retrieved December 25, 2018.
*Montgomery, Jack (December 26, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/12/26/brexit-project-fears-best-scare-stories/ Brexit: Project Fear’s Best ‘No Deal’ Scare Stories of 2018]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved December 26, 2018.
*Jasper, William F. (January 3, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31081-project-fear-intensifies-with-cumberbatch-brexit-film-andy-serkis-mock-video Project Fear Intensifies With Cumberbatch Brexit Film, Andy Serkis Mock Video]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 7, 2019.</ref>

The UK parliament passed a bill implementing the referendum decision, becoming law on June 27, 2018, about a year after being introduced.<ref>Gaydos, Ryan (June 26, 2018). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/06/26/brexit-bill-becomes-law-allowing-uk-to-leave-european-union.html Brexit bill becomes law, allowing UK to leave European Union]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved June 27, 2018.</ref><ref>Manchester, Julia (June 26, 2018). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/394124-british-brexit-bill-becomes-law British Brexit bill becomes law]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved June 27, 2018.</ref> [[Globalist]]s of the EU<ref>Jasper, William F. (January 7, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31129-brexit-betrayal-and-the-eu-liars-club Brexit Betrayal and the EU Liars Club]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 7, 2019.</ref> and in the UK refused to admit their defeat in the referendum by trying to undermine and even reverse Brexit – thus undermining democracy.<ref>Multiple references:
*Newman, Alex (June 27, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/29398-brexit-is-now-law-but-globalists-refuse-to-surrender Brexit Is Now Law, but Globalists Refuse to Surrender]. ''The New American''. Retrieved June 27, 2018.
*Hannan, Dan (December 24, 2018). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/how-the-europhiles-are-blowing-up-britain How the Europhiles are blowing up Britain]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved December 24, 2018.
*Murphy, James (January 13, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31176-uk-in-brexit-turmoil-as-calls-for-a-new-referendum-grow UK in Brexit Turmoil as Calls for a New Referendum Grow]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 13, 2019.
*Hannan, Daniel (April 8, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/the-uks-remainers-will-tear-down-democracy-and-all-its-rules-to-get-their-way The UK's 'Remainers' will tear down democracy and all its rules to get their way]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved April 8, 2019.
*Davies, Andrew (April 22, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/the-great-brexit-con The great Brexit con]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved April 22, 2019.
See also:
*Woodfinden, Benjamin (February 6, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/no-deal-brexit-might-be-bad-but-remaining-in-the-eu-would-be-worse No-deal Brexit might be bad, but remaining in the EU would be worse]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved February 7, 2019.</ref> By July 2018, Prime Minister Theresa May had hurt her country's chances of securing a real Brexit because of several poor decisions and refusal to stand firm against the EU in negotiations.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (July 11, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/11/five-things-know-about-may-bungled-brexit/ Concessions, Threats, No Confidence: Five Ways ‘Zombie May’ Bungled Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 11, 2018. See also:
*Murphy, James (October 20, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/30389-what-obstacles-remain-with-brexit What Obstacles Remain With Brexit?] ''The New American''. Retrieved October 20, 2018.
*Montgomery, Jack (November 5, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/05/brexit-where-negotiations-stand-deal-deadline-looms/ The State of Brexit: Where EU Negotiations Stand as Deal Deadline Looms]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 5, 2018.
*Jasper, William F. (November 28, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/30770-theresa-may-betray-delay-fritter-the-brexit-victory-away Theresa May: Betray, Delay, Fritter the Brexit Victory Away]. ''The New American''. Retrieved November 28, 2018.
*Murphy, James (December 5, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/30826-brexit-in-peril-as-may-struggles-to-keep-her-deal-alive Brexit in Peril as May Struggles to Keep Her Deal Alive]. ''The New American''. Retrieved December 5, 2018.</ref> The UK parliament voted to make a clean Brexit more difficult to achieve, increasing the chance of no Brexit.<ref>Multiple references:
*Murphy, James (January 9, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31148-more-speed-bumps-on-the-road-to-brexit More Speed Bumps on the Road to Brexit]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 9, 2019.
*McTague, Tom (January 9, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/second-defeat-in-2-days-for-theresa-may-at-hands-of-anti-brexit-mps/ Theresa May suffers second Brexit defeat in 24 hours]. ''Politico''. Retrieved January 9, 2019.
*Piper, Elizabeth; James, William; MacLellan, Kylie (January 9, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/britains-may-suffers-parliament-defeat-as-brexit-debate-resumes-idUSKCN1P30ML Britain's May suffers parliament defeat as Brexit debate resumes]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved January 10, 2019.</ref>

On November 14, 2018, May announced the UK had reached an agreement with the EU.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (November 14, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/14/brexit-live-theresa-may-addresses-country-after-crunch-cabinet-meeting-over-worst-deal-in-history/ Brexit Live: Theresa May Addresses Country After Crunch Cabinet Meeting over ‘Worst Deal in History’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 14, 2018.
*James, William; MacLellan, Kylie (November 14, 2018). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/my-deal-no-deal-or-no-brexit-uk-pm-may-says-after-winning-ministers-backing-idUSKCN1NJ0WE My deal, no deal or no Brexit, UK PM May says after winning ministers' backing]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved November 14, 2018.
*Colchester, Max (November 14, 2018). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-faces-first-crucial-hurdle-her-closest-allies-1542195881 U.K.’s May Gets Cabinet’s Go-Ahead on Brexit Deal]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved November 14, 2018.
See also:
*Byas, Steve (November 14, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/30647-brexit-difficulty-best-course-is-not-to-get-into-globalist-deals-such-as-european-union Brexit Difficulty: Best Course Is Not to Get Into Globalist Deals Such as European Union]. ''The New American''. Retrieved November 14, 2018.
*Jasper, William F. (December 22, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31000-theresa-may-s-brexit-betrayal-why-her-deal-has-britain-in-turmoil Theresa May’s Brexit Betrayal — Why Her “Deal” Has Britain In Turmoil]. ''The New American''. Retrieved December 22, 2018.
*Douglas, Jason (November 1, 2018). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/northern-irelands-stormy-past-haunts-u-k-efforts-to-leave-eu-1541064601 Northern Ireland’s Stormy Past Haunts U.K. Efforts to Leave EU]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved November 14, 2018.
*Delingpole, James (January 11, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/01/11/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-is-a-trap/ Delingpole: Deep Throat Insider on Theresa May’s Brexit Deal – ‘It’s a Trap’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 11, 2019.</ref> The agreement was very poorly received by Brexit supporters.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (November 15, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/15/a-damning-verdict-theresa-mays-brexit-minister-dominic-raab-quits-over-her-brexit-deal/ A Damning Verdict: Ministers Quit Over Theresa May’s Brexit ‘Deal’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Cooper, Charlie (November 15, 2018). [https://www.politico.eu/article/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-theresa-may-eu-brexit-deal/ 10 things you need to know about the Brexit deal]. ''Politico''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Piper, Elizabeth; MacLellan, Kylie; James, William (November 15, 2018). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/british-pm-may-battles-to-save-brexit-deal-as-ministers-quit-idUSKCN1NK0QJ British PM May battles to save Brexit deal as ministers quit]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (November 15, 2018). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/european-officials-to-meet-to-approve-draft-brexit-deal-1542269504 U.K.’s Brexit Deal in Jeopardy as Senior Ministers Resign]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Anapol, Avery (November 15, 2018). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/416850-mays-brexit-ministers-quit-in-protest-of-draft-agreement May’s Brexit ministers quit in protest of draft agreement]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Montgomery, Jack (November 15, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/15/uk-remain-non-voting-eu-member-december-20xx/ Betrayal Agreement: Deal Text Says UK Could Remain Non-Voting EU Member Until ‘31 December 20XX’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Plackett, Benjamin (December 5, 2018). [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/5/theresa-may-brexit-plan-gets-little-popular-suppor/ Theresa May's last-ditch Brexit plan pitch meets cold reception]. ''The Washington Times''. Retrieved December 5, 2018.
See also:
*Kuenssberg, Laura (November 15, 2018). [https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46221896 Raab resignation: A damning verdict on the PM's deal]. ''BBC News''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.
*Timothy, Nick (November 14, 2018). [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/14/not-compromise-capitulation-prime-minister/ This is not a compromise - it's a capitulation by our Prime Minister]. ''The Telegraph''. Retrieved November 15, 2018.</ref> Not only was May a weak negotiator, but she also advocated for a bad deal. For example, she requested that a "backstop" be added to the final Brexit deal that would keep the UK in the customs union with no exit.<ref>Deacon, Liam (November 19, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/19/revealed-may-requested-brexit-customs-union-backstop-with-no-exit/ Revealed: May Requested Brexit Customs Union ‘Backstop’ With No Exit, Not EU]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 19, 2018.</ref> Despite the major concessions to the EU, European countries were still not satisfied and wanted yet more concessions.<ref>Deacon, Liam (November 20, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/20/eu-wants-more-concessions-france-demands-fishing-rights-spain-gibraltar-veto/ EU Wants MORE Concessions: France Demands Fishing Rights and Spain Calls for Gibraltar Veto]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 20, 2018.</ref> While May claimed that her deal was the only possible one that the UK could achieve, pro-Brexit MPs [[Jacob Rees-Mogg]] and [[David Davis (British politician)|David Davis]] released their own Brexit plan that would respect British sovereignty.<ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (November 20, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/20/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-group-publishes-full-brexit-antidote-theresa-may-betrayal-deal/ Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Brexit Group Publishes Full Brexit Antidote to Theresa May’s Betrayal Deal]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 20, 2018.</ref> In December 2018, the British government was forced to release legal advice it had received that stated the agreement would be worse for Britain than the government claimed.<ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (December 5, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/12/05/british-government-publishes-full-brexit-legal-advice/ Full Scale of Brexit Betrayal Revealed After British Government Forced to Publish Legal Advice]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved December 5, 2018.</ref> After the UK surrendered to additional Spanish demands regarding [[Gibraltar]],<ref>Multiple references:
*[https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/24/spanish-pm-brexit-impasse-on-gibraltar-cleared-after-uk-accepted-conditions-imposed-by-spain/ Spanish PM: Brexit Impasse on Gibraltar Cleared After UK ‘Accepted Conditions Imposed by Spain’]. ''Breitbart News'' (from the ''Associated Press''). November 24, 2018. Retrieved November 25, 2018.
*Montgomery, Jack (November 26, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/26/spain-wins-madrid-brags-mays-eu-deal-offers-chance-grab-gibraltar-sovereignty/ ‘Spain Wins’ – Madrid Brags May’s EU ‘Deal’ Offers Chance to Grab Gibraltar Sovereignty]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 26, 2018.</ref> the EU approved the agreement.<ref>Multiple references:
*Montgomery, Jack (November 25, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/25/mays-betrayal-agreement-signed-britain-on-the-road-to-brexit-in-name-only/ May’s Betrayal Agreement Signed: Britain on the Road to Brexit in Name Only]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 25, 2018.
*Cook, Lorne; Lawless, Jill (November 25, 2018). [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/25/eu-approves-brexit-deal-its-tragedy/ EU approves Brexit deal: 'It's a tragedy']. ''The Washington Times'' (from the ''Associated Press''). Retrieved November 25, 2018.
See also:
*Montgomery, Jack (November 25, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/25/theresa-may-writes-letter-to-the-nation-begging-support-for-worst-deal-in-history/ Theresa May Writes ‘Letter to the Nation’ Begging Support for ‘Worst Deal in History’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 25, 2018.
*Montgomery, Jack (November 25, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/11/25/fishermen-betrayed-macron-gloats-uk-will-be-forced-into-backstop-unless-british-waters-are-surrendered/ Fishermen Betrayed: Macron Gloats UK Will Be Forced Into ‘Backstop’ Unless British Waters are Surrendered]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved November 25, 2018.</ref>

On January 15, 2019, the UK Parliament rejected the deal by a vote of 202 for and 432 against, making it the largest government defeat since World War I.<ref>Multiple references:
*Montgomery, Jack (January 15, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/01/15/mays-day-parliament-holds-meaningful-vote-on-prime-ministers-brexit-deal/ CRUSHED: Theresa May’s Brexit Deal Defeated by Record-Breaking Margin in Parliament]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 15, 2019.
*Murphy, James (January 15, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31198-theresa-mays-brexit-plan-goes-down-in-flames-brexit-future-unclear Theresa May’s Brexit Plan Goes Down in Flames; Brexit Future Unclear]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 16, 2019.
*Birnbaum, Emily (January 15, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/425463-uk-parliament-votes-against-mays-brexit-deal UK Parliament votes against May's Brexit deal]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved January 15, 2019.
*Shaw, Adam (January 15, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/british-prime-minister-theresa-may-suffers-devastating-defeat-on-key-brexit-vote British Prime Minister Theresa May suffers devastating defeat on key Brexit vote]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved January 15, 2019.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (January 15, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-parliament-roundly-rejects-mays-brexit-plan-11547581277 U.K. Parliament Roundly Rejects May’s Brexit Plan]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved January 15, 2019.
*Cooper, Charlie (January 15, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-deal-rejected-by-432-votes-to-202-2/ Historic defeat for Theresa May on Brexit vote]. ''Politico''. Retrieved January 15, 2019.
See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (January 15, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/01/15/eu-sources-rule-out-reopening-deal-talks-brexiteers-reaction-may-defeat/ EU Sources Rule out Reopening Deal Talks, Brexiteers React to May Defeat]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved January 15, 2019.
*Hilton, Steve (January 16, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/steve-hilton-original-intent-of-brexit-restoring-freedom-and-sovereignty-buried-by-inept-bureaucrats Steve Hilton: Original intent of Brexit - restoring freedom and sovereignty - buried by inept bureaucrats]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved January 16, 2019.
*Murphy, James (January 16, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31208-chance-of-new-brexit-referendum-increases-with-defeat-of-may-s-deal Chance of New Brexit Referendum Increases With Defeat of May’s Deal]. ''The New American''. Retrieved January 16, 2019.</ref> The British establishment, nonetheless, opposed any meaningful Brexit, if any at all.<ref>Davies, Andrew (March 8, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/brexit-dreams-and-broken-promises Brexit dreams and broken promises]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved March 8, 2019.</ref> On March 12, 2019, Parliament again rejected May's Brexit deal.<ref>Multiple references:
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (March 12, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-parliament-votes-down-mays-brexit-deal-11552418563 U.K. Parliament Votes Down May’s Brexit Deal]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Shaw, Adam (March 13, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/british-pm-theresa-may-suffers-another-major-defeat-on-revised-brexit-deal-as-clock-ticks-down British PM Theresa May suffers another major defeat on revised Brexit deal, as clock ticks down]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (March 12, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/12/uk-parliament-votes-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-for-second-and-probably-final-time/ UK Parliament Votes on Theresa May’s Brexit Deal For Second and Probably Final Time]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
See also:
*Delingpole, James (March 12, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/12/mps-reject-mays-latest-meaningful-vote-good/ Delingpole: Good Riddance to May’s Withdrawal Agreement – a Turd Rolled in Glitter]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Montgomery, Jack (March 13, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/13/brexiteers-glad-mays-deal-defeated-fear-remainers-vote-down-no-deal/ Brexiteers Glad to See May’s Deal Fall, But Fear Her Move to Let Remainers Vote Down No Deal]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.</ref> May tried to bully pro-Brexit MPs to vote for her bad deal by claiming that Brexit would not happen if they did not vote her way,<ref>Multiple references:
*[https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/08/may-warns-if-parliament-rejects-her-brexit-betrayal-deal-uk-may-never-leave-eu/ May Warns if Parliament Rejects Her Brexit Betrayal Deal, UK May Never Leave EU]. ''Breitbart News'' (from the ''Associated Press''). March 8, 2019. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Murphy, James (February 26, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31577-theresa-may-floats-the-idea-of-a-brexit-delay-to-parliament Theresa May Floats the Idea of a Brexit Delay to Parliament]. ''The New American''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Delingpole, James (March 6, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/06/claim-mays-secret-brexit-betrayal-pact-with-merkel/ Delingpole: Bombshell Claim — May’s Secret Brexit Betrayal Pact with Merkel]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Montgomery, Jack (March 17, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/17/may-back-my-deal-we-will-not-leave-eu-for-many-months-if-ever/ May: Back My Deal or ‘We Will Not Leave the EU for Many Months, if Ever’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 17, 2019.</ref> and she later announced she would vote against a no-deal Brexit despite originally claiming to prefer no-deal over a bad deal.<ref name="RuleOut">Schaart, Eline (March 13, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-confirms-she-will-vote-to-rule-out-a-no-deal-brexit/ Theresa May confirms she will vote to rule out a no-deal Brexit]. ''Politico''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.</ref> The following day, Parliament – along with May<ref name="RuleOut"/> – voted against a no-deal Brexit.<ref>Multiple references:
*Shaw, Adam (March 13, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/british-lawmakers-reject-no-deal-brexit-take-step-closer-to-delaying-departure UK lawmakers reject 'no deal' Brexit, take step closer to delaying departure]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (March 13, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/13/parliament-no-longer-represents-people-may-loses-control-own-motion/ ‘Parliament No Longer Represents the People’: May Loses Control of OWN MOTION Hijacked by Hardline Remainers]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
*Fidler, Stephen; Douglas, Jason (March 13, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-lawmakers-rule-out-any-no-deal-brexit-11552504751 U.K. Lawmakers Vote Against Leaving EU Without a Deal]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved March 13, 2019.
See also:
*Jasper, William F. (March 14, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31750-brexit-chaos-as-war-of-the-elites-against-brit-independence-intensifies Brexit Chaos as War of the Elites Against Brit Independence Intensifies]. ''The New American''. Retrieved March 15, 2019.
*Jasper, William F. (March 14, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31742-nigel-farage-slams-theresa-may-eu-and-tories-over-brexit-betrayal-urges-eu-to-veto-brexit-extension Nigel Farage Slams Theresa May, EU, and Tories Over Brexit Betrayal, Urges EU to Veto Brexit Extension]. ''The New American''. Retrieved March 14, 2019.</ref> The day after that, Parliament voted to delay Brexit,<ref>Multiple references:
*Shaw, Adam (March 14, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/british-parliament-votes-in-favor-of-brexit-delay-unclear-if-eu-leaders-will-accept British Parliament votes in favor of Brexit delay, unclear if EU leaders will accept]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved March 14, 2019.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (March 14, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/14/uk-parliament-votes-on-cancelling-march-29th-brexit-day/ UK Parliament Votes on Cancelling March 29th Brexit Day]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 14, 2019.
*Fidler, Stephen; Norman, Laurence (March 14, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-lawmakers-set-to-delay-brexit-as-political-turmoil-drags-on-11552571318 U.K. Parliament Votes to Delay Brexit as Turmoil Drags On]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved March 14, 2019.</ref> even though May had repeatedly promised that such a delay would not happen.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (March 14, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/14/as-pm-may-moves-to-delay-brexit-heres-all-times-she-promised-march-29th/ As PM May Moves to Delay Brexit, Here’s All the Times She Promised it On Time]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 14, 2019.</ref><ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (March 20, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/20/after-promising-brexit-on-march-29th-108-times-may-now-requests-delay-to-june/ After Promising Brexit on March 29th 108 Times, May Now Requests Delay to June]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 20, 2019.</ref> Not content with all this, May chose to have Parliament vote once again on her Brexit deal,<ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (March 15, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/15/parliament-to-vote-third-time-on-brexit-deal/ Wrong Answer, Try Again: Parliament to Vote on May’s Brexit Deal For Third Time]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 15, 2019.</ref> and the third vote on March 29, 2019, also failed.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (March 29, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/29/brexit-betrayal-day-parliament-votes-on-theresa-mays-last-ditch-fight-for-eu-approved-deal/ Brexit Betrayal Day: Parliament Rejects Theresa May’s Last Ditch Fight For EU-Approved ‘Deal’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 29, 2019.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (March 29, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/mays-brexit-deal-is-rejected-for-a-third-time-by-lawmakers-11553870628 May’s Brexit Deal Is Rejected for a Third Time by Lawmakers]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved March 29, 2019.
*Frazin, Rachel (March 29, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/436457-may-brexit-deal-suffers-third-defeat Theresa May's Brexit deal suffers third defeat in Parliament]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved March 29, 2019.
*Murphy, James (March 29, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31881-brexit-bedlam-may-s-deal-defeated-a-third-time-future-is-unclear Brexit Bedlam: May’s Deal Defeated a Third Time; Future is Unclear]. ''The New American''. Retrieved March 29, 2019.</ref> Not content, May wanted parliament to vote on her deal a fourth time.<ref>Multiple references:
*Montgomery, Jack (March 30, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/30/night-living-deal-may-wants-fourth-vote-brexit-agreement/ Night of the Living Deal: May Wants Fourth Vote on Rejected Brexit Agreement]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved March 30, 2019.
*Murphy, James (April 1, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/31898-may-ponders-fourth-vote-on-her-brexit-deal May Ponders Fourth Vote on Her Brexit Deal]. ''The New American''. Retrieved April 1, 2019.</ref>

May then began negotiations with the far-left [[Jeremy Corbyn]] on a Brexit agreement.<ref>Carbone, Christopher (April 7, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/may-defends-approaching-labour-on-brexit-deal-as-clock-ticks-down May makes last-ditch Brexit effort with Labour as clock ticks down]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved April 7, 2019.</ref> Her government also announced the UK would participate in the [[European Parliament]] elections,<ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (April 5, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/05/theresa-may-confirms-brits-will-vote-in-eu-elections-despite-having-voted-to-leave-bloc-three-years-earlier/ Theresa May Confirms Brits Will Vote in EU Elections, Despite Having Voted to Leave Bloc Three Years Earlier]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved April 5, 2019.</ref><ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (April 8, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/08/despite-brexit-referendum-and-endless-promises-uk-govt-lays-legal-groundwork-to-host-eu-elections/ Despite Brexit Referendum And Endless Promises, UK Govt Lays Legal Groundwork to Host EU Elections]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved April 8, 2019.</ref> something anti-Brexit [[deep state]] officials set aside money for in 2018.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (April 5, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/05/flashback-uk-deep-set-aside-cash-eu-elections-may-2018/ FLASHBACK: UK Deep State Set Aside Cash for EU Elections in May 2018]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved April 5, 2019.</ref> May even threatened to keep the UK in the EU.<ref>Hervey, Ginger (April 7, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-warns-of-stark-choice-between-a-deal-and-no-brexit/ Theresa May warns of ‘stark choice’ between a deal and no Brexit]. ''Politico''. Retrieved April 7, 2019.</ref> This came even though her own government had prepared extensively for a "no deal."<ref>Montgomery, Jack (April 6, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/06/britain-officially-ready-no-deal-reveals-govt-minister-responsible-plans/ Britain ‘Officially Ready’ for No Deal Brexit, Reveals Govt Minister Responsible for Plans]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved April 6, 2019.</ref> In April 2019, the EU and May government agreed to further extend Brexit to October 31 of that year.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (April 11, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/11/halloween-brexit-departure-delayed-until-october-31st2/ Zombie May’s Halloween Brexit: Establishment Stitch-up Delays Departure Until October 31st]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved April 11, 2019.
*Chamberlain, Samuel (April 10, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/britain-eu-agree-to-delay-brexit-deadline-until-oct-31 Britain, EU agree to delay Brexit deadline until Oct. 31]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved April 11, 2019.
*Gray, Jane (April 11, 2019). [https://www.theepochtimes.com/eu-sets-halloween-deadline-for-mays-brexit-plan-warns-dont-wast-time-this-time_2875919.html EU Sets Halloween Deadline for May’s Brexit Plan, Warns UK to ‘Not Waste This Time’]. ''The Epoch Times''. Retrieved April 11, 2019.</ref> Anti-Brexit members of May's government then stated that parliament would consider a second referendum,<ref>Milliken, David (April 12, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond/uk-parliament-very-likely-to-consider-new-brexit-referendum-hammond-idUSKCN1RO1EF UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved April 13, 2019.</ref> and her government even ended its Brexit "no deal" planning.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (April 13, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/13/ex-cabinet-minister-says-end-no-deal-prep-proves-brexit-process-stitch-up/ Ex-Cabinet Minister Says End of ‘No Deal’ Prep Proves Brexit Process a Stitch-up]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved April 13, 2019.</ref> Despite claiming to oppose a second referendum, May announced on May 21, 2019, that she would offer such a referendum as a condition of approving her exit plan.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (May 21, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/05/21/brexit-betrayal-may-opens-door-to-second-referendum/ Democratic Disconnect: While British Voters Flock to ‘No Deal’ Brexit Party, PM May Offers Second Referendum]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved May 21, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill (May 21, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/182c02c75bcb4c128e8326864874f049 Seeking Brexit support, May offers vote on new referendum]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved May 21, 2019.
See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (May 22, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/05/22/betrayal-people-may-deal-demand-ousting/ ‘Betrayal of 17.4m People’: Brexiteer MPs Pan Deal, Demand May’s Ousting]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved May 22, 2019.</ref>

Despite voting to leave the EU, the UK's payments to the globalist organization increased by 20% by 2019.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (July 22, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/22/eu-extracts-eye-popping-20-per-cent-rise-budget-payments-uk/ EU Extracts Billions More from UK with ‘Eye-popping’ 20 Per Cent Increase to Budget Contribution]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 22, 2019.</ref>

Some Tory MPs opposed achieving Brexit so much that they even supported far-left socialist [[Jeremy Corbyn]] becoming prime minister in place of [[Boris Johnson]].<ref>[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-labour-reaction/some-conservative-lawmakers-open-to-corbyn-brexit-talks-sky-idUSKCN1V50TL Some Conservative lawmakers open to Corbyn Brexit talks: Sky]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved August 15, 2019.</ref> Those Tories voted with Labour in early September 2019 to block a "no-deal" Brexit.<ref>Murphy, James (September 5, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33342-as-the-uk-turns-more-brexit-drama-delay-and-dithering-in-british-parliament As the U.K. Turns: More Brexit Drama, Delay, and Dithering in British Parliament]. ''The New American''. Retrieved September 5, 2019.</ref> The EU worried that Brexit would mean closer relations between the UK and U.S.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (September 9, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/09/eurocrat-fears-closer-relationship-between-uk-us-brexit/ Eurocrat Fears Closer Relationship Between UK and U.S. After Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.</ref>

While the EU attempted to scare the UK about the risks of a "no deal" Brexit and pretend that it would allow it to happen, the European Parliament simultaneously voted to grant the UK yet another extension if thought necessary.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (September 19, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/19/submit-new-plan-eu-talks-tough-open-another-extension/ Submit New Plan or ‘It’s Over’: EU Talks Tough But Still Open to ANOTHER Extension]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 19, 2019.</ref> The EU and its member-nations worried that the UK would be a competitor to the organization.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (October 15, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/15/merkel-post-brexit-britain-potential-competitor-eu/ Merkel: Post-Brexit Britain ‘Potential Competitor’ to EU]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 15, 2019.</ref>

Johnson suspended parliament in early September 2019, but the UK Supreme Court ruled against this action on September 24.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/boris-johnson-suspended-parliament-unlawfully-uk-supreme-court-finds/ Boris Johnson Suspended Parliament Unlawfully, UK Supreme Court Finds]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Wallace, Danielle (September 24, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/boris-johnsons-suspension-of-parliament-ruled-unlawful-by-uk-supreme-court Boris Johnson's suspension of Parliament ruled unlawful by UK Supreme Court]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Douglas, Jason; Fidler, Stephen (September 24, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-court-rules-against-johnsons-freeze-on-parliament-11569318257 Boris Johnson Acted Illegally in Suspending Parliament, U.K.’s Highest Court Rules]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/farage-prorogation-worst-political-decision-ever-reactions-supreme-court-ruling/ Farage Calls Prorogation ‘Worst Political Decision Ever’: Reactions to Supreme Court Ruling]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Delingpole, James (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/supreme-court-enemies-of-the-people-sabotage-brexit/ Delingpole: Judicial Enemies of the People Sabotage Brexit Again]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Delingpole, James (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/a-sinister-shadow-government-is-killing-brexit/ Delingpole: A Sinister, Nebulous Shadow Government Is Holding Brexit Hostage]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Hannan, Dan (September 26, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/boris-brexit-and-the-politicization-of-britains-judiciary Boris, Brexit and the politicization of Britain's judiciary]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved September 27, 2019.
Johnson's response after Parliament reconvened:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 25, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/25/bojo-throws-down-gauntlet-fight-election-or-ill-deliver-brexit/ PM Bojo Throws Down the Gauntlet to Remainers: Challenge me in an Election or I’ll Deliver Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 25, 2019.
*Colchester, Max (September 25, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/british-leader-goads-rivals-to-end-his-rule-call-new-vote-11569443576 British Leader Goads Rivals to End His Rule, Call New Vote]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 25, 2019.</ref>

=== Article 50 ===

The Article 50 document was signed by the Prime Minister of the UK, Theresa May, on the 29th March 2017. It was delivered to Donald Tusk (President of The European Council) who commented there was "no reason to pretend this was a happy day" especially as the UK had been integral to the European Union for 44 years.

Following the acceptance of article 50 there will be two years of intense negotiation to finalise agreements over:

* current UK and EU nationals living in each other's territories
* financial liabilities and responsibilities to each other
* trade and legal agreements

If this is not completed within two years then it is likely that [[World Trade Organization]] rules would apply to any future trade unless all EU member nations agree to extend the negotiating period by up to one year.

In December 2018, the European Court of Justice, which always rules in favor of the EU's preferred position, stated that a country could unilaterally reverse Article 50.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (December 4, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/12/04/remainers-mobilise-after-european-court-opens-door-to-cancelling-brexit-altogether/ Remainers Mobilise After European Court Opens Door to Cancelling Brexit Altogether]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved December 4, 2018.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (December 10, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/12/10/eu-court-confirms-britain-has-sovereign-right-to-stay-in-the-eu/ EU Court Confirms Britain Has Sovereign Right… to Stay in the EU]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved December 10, 2018.
*Sinner, Michele; Macdonald, Alastair (December 10, 2018). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-court/eu-court-cites-union-goal-to-let-uk-stop-brexit-idUSKBN1O90QH EU court cites union goal to let UK stop Brexit]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved December 10, 2018.</ref>

===Negotiations===
The main concern of the British government is to ensure access to the single market for its banking and manufacturing sectors - both major income streams for the UK. Along with this the UK business sector are very concerned about the potential loss of EU (especially Eastern European) labour for many agricultural and low paid roles. Negotiations are proceeding very slowly because of the obstructive tactics of the EU negotiators. They are insisting that Britain must agree to an "exit fee" of over £50 billion before they will start trade talks.<ref>https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/797852/Brexit-news-EU-expand-Britain-exit-fee-bill-budget-black-hole</ref> They also wanted to discuss the "rights" of EU citizens before such talks.

====Under Theresa May====
In July 2018, [[Theresa May]] and her cabinet agreed to a very weak negotiating position that would leave the country under the European Court of Justice, effectively in the single market, and under the jurisdiction of many of the EU's regulations.<ref>Montgomery, Jack (July 6, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/06/total-capitulation-theresa-may-proposes-sub-norway-brexit-deal/ TOTAL CAPITULATION: May Proposes Sub-Norway Brexit Deal – Concedes on Goods, Rules, EU Court, and More]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 7, 2018.</ref> Anti-Brexit [[Europhile]]s applauded the negotiating position.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (July 9, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/09/remainers-congratulate-may-brexit-betrayal/ Remainers Congratulate May’s Brexit Betrayal]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 9, 2018.</ref> In opposition to such a weak agreement, several of her pro-[[sovereignty]] ministers resigned,<ref>Piper, Elizabeth; James, William; MacAskill, Andrew (July 8, 2018). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-davis/uk-brexit-secretary-david-davis-has-resigned-source-close-to-davis-idUSKBN1JY10K British eurosceptic ministers quit in blow to May's Brexit plan]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 9, 2018.</ref><ref>Murphy, James (July 10, 2018). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/29501-uk-government-reels-in-the-wake-of-brexit-related-resignations U.K. Government Reels in the Wake of Brexit-related Resignations]. ''The New American''. Retrieved July 10, 2018.</ref> including Brexit Minister David Davis<ref>Multiple references:
*Montgomery, Jack (July 8, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/08/rebellion-brexit-secretary-david-davis-resigns-over-mays-turd-deal-couldnt-sell-out-his-own-country/ REBELLION: Brexit Secretary David Davis Resigns Over May’s ‘Turd’ Deal, ‘Couldn’t Sell Out His Own Country’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 9, 2018.
*[https://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/07/08/top-uk-official-in-charge-brexit-quits-in-fresh-blow-to-may.html Top UK official in charge of Brexit quits in fresh blow to May]. ''Associated Press''. July 8, 2018. Retrieved July 9, 2018.
See also:
*Montgomery, Jack (July 10, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/10/ex-brexit-minister-slams-may-establishment-dont-want-to-leave-eu-exit-plan-led-by-fear-and-supplication/ Ex-Brexit Minister Slams May: Establishment ‘Don’t Want to Leave EU’, Exit Plan Led by ‘Fear and Supplication’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 10, 2018.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (July 9, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/09/brexit-supporting-dominic-raab-chosen-as-new-brexit-secretary-after-david-davis-resignation/ Brexit-Supporting Dominic Raab Chosen as New Brexit Secretary After David Davis Resignation]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 9, 2018.</ref> and Foreign Minister [[Boris Johnson]].<ref>Lane, Oliver JJ (July 9, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/09/british-foreign-secretary-boris-johnson-resigns-government-amid-brexit-rebellion/ British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson Resigns Government Amid Brexit Rebellion]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 9, 2018. See also:
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-johnson-resignation/former-foreign-minister-johnson-warns-britain-will-end-up-like-colony-to-the-eu-after-brexit-idUSKBN1JZ2AH Former foreign minister Johnson warns Britain will end up like colony to the EU after Brexit]. ''Reuters''. July 9, 2018. Retrieved July 9, 2018.
*Montgomery, Jack (July 9, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/09/boris-speaks-brexit-is-dying-white-flags-are-fluttering-may-deal-will-make-britain-an-eu-colony/ BORIS SPEAKS: ‘Brexit is Dying, White Flags Are Fluttering, May Deal Will Make Britain an EU Colony’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 9, 2018.</ref> Several other officials also resigned.<ref>Multiple references:
*Friedman, Victoria (July 16, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/16/theresa-may-government-implodes-9th-mp-resigns-soft-brexit-plan/ Theresa May’s Government Implodes as 9th MP Resigns over Soft Brexit Plan]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 16, 2018.
*Sang, Lucia I. Suarez (July 16, 2018). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/07/16/theresa-may-dismisses-calls-for-2nd-brexit-vote-as-ninth-parliament-member-resigns.html Theresa May dismisses calls for 2nd Brexit vote as ninth parliament member resigns]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved July 16, 2018.
*Mikhailova, Anna (July 15, 2018). [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/15/theresa-may-faces-eighth-resignation-brexit-plans-nine-days/ Theresa May hit by her eighth resignation over Brexit plans in nine days, as ministerial aide quits]. ''The Telegraph''. Retrieved July 16, 2018.</ref> Pro-"Remain" officials in May's government consolidated their influence over the exit negotiations.<ref>Deacon, Liam (July 17, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/17/power-grab-may-brexit-bureaucrat-purges-50-brexit-department-staff/ Power Grab: May’s Brexit Bureaucrat Purges 50 Brexit Department Staff]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 17, 2018.</ref><ref>Deacon, Liam (July 24, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/24/pms-bureaucrats-officially-take-charge-brexit-talks-brexit-department-snubbed/ PM’s Bureaucrats Officially Take Charge of Brexit Talks, Brexit Department Snubbed]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 24, 2018.</ref> The UK government also gave the [[Europhile]] European Court of Justice the final say over any Brexit issue in the negotiations.<ref>Deacon, Liam (July 30, 2018). [https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/07/30/eu-courts-have-final-say-brexit-divorce-bill-millions-migrants/ EU Courts to Have Final Say on Brexit ‘Divorce Bill’ and Millions of Migrants]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 30, 2018.</ref>

The House of Commons approved May's negotiating position as official UK policy on July 16, 2018, though it also added four amendments to the bill created by pro-Brexit MPs.<ref>Multiple references:
*[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44854597 Brexit: Government scrapes through Customs Bill votes]. ''BBC News''. Retrieved July 16, 2018.
*Piper, Elizabeth; James, William; MacAskill, Andrew (July 15, 2018). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu/parliament-vote-to-reveal-extent-of-anger-over-mays-brexit-plan-idUSKBN1K514U May wins parliament vote after bowing to Brexit pressure]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 16, 2018.
*McTague, Tom; Dickson, Annabelle (July 16, 2018). [https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-caves-in-on-brexiteer-amendments-to-head-off-rebellion/ Theresa May narrowly avoids House of Commons defeat as Tory split worsens]. ''Politico''. Retrieved July 17, 2018.</ref> The following day, it approved a trade bill while rejecting an anti-Brexit amendment to the bill that would have required the government to enter a customs agreement with the EU if free trade negotiations failed, though parliament also voted to require the government to remain under the EU's medicine regulations.<ref>Multiple references:
*Cooper, Charlie (July 17, 2018). [https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-government-wins-vote-on-customs-union-amendment/ UK government wins vote on customs union amendment]. ''Politico''. Retrieved July 17, 2018.
*[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44864496 Brexit vote: Government defeats EU customs union bid]. ''BBC News''. July 17, 2018. Retrieved July 17, 2018.
*Sparrow, Andrew; Rawlinson, Kevin (July 17, 2018). [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jul/17/brexit-trade-bill-vote-referendum-result-branded-dodgier-than-ever-after-vote-leave-found-to-have-broken-election-spending-law-politics-live May wins key customs union vote by six after surprise Brexit loss on medicines agency – as it happened]. ''The Guardian''. Retrieved July 17, 2018.
*James, William; MacAskill, Andrew; Piper, Elizabeth (July 17, 2018). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu/may-narrowly-avoids-defeat-in-parliament-on-trade-laws-idUSKBN1K72CT May narrowly avoids defeat in parliament on EU trade laws]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 17, 2018.
*Douglas, Jason; Horner, Will (July 17, 2018). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/lawmakers-efforts-to-rewrite-government-plan-imperil-mays-brexit-strategy-1531844466 May’s Brexit Plan Narrowly Survives in Parliament]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved July 17, 2018.</ref>

====Under Boris Johnson====
Immediately upon becoming Prime Minister, [[Boris Johnson]] took a tough stance on Brexit, promising to fulfill the 2016 referendum result.<ref>Multiple references:
*Faulconbridge, Guy; Piper, Elizabeth (July 23, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-leader/britains-new-leader-johnson-we-are-going-to-get-brexit-done-idUSKCN1UH2JQ Britain's new leader Johnson: 'We are going to get Brexit done']. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 23, 2019.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (July 25, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/boris-johnson-talks-tough-on-brexit-in-combative-first-speech-11564061650 Boris Johnson Talks Tough on Brexit in Combative First Speech]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved July 25, 2019.
*Faulconbridge, Guy; MacLellan, Kylie (July 25, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu/ill-make-britain-great-again-pm-johnson-echoes-trump-over-brexit-idUSKCN1UK0OI I'll make Britain great again, PM Johnson echoes Trump over Brexit]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 25, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill; Kirka, Danica (July 25, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/a6eb435cefad4679b995e78470c5a550 Showdown looms as new British PM wants to redo Brexit deal]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved July 25, 2019.</ref> His government stated it would not pay any "divorce bill" to the EU in the case of a "no-deal" Brexit,<ref>Friedman, Victoria (July 25, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/25/new-boris-govt-confirms-uk-wont-pay-39bn-brussels-no-deal-brexit/ New Boris Govt Confirms UK Won’t Pay £39bn to Brussels in No-Deal Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 25, 2019.</ref> and Johnson stated he would push to adopt an independent trade policy and not nominate an EU commissioner.<ref>[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-leader-commission/british-pm-johnson-unveils-new-approach-no-uk-commissioner-to-eu-idUSKCN1UK1GC British PM Johnson unveils 'new approach', no UK commissioner to EU]. ''Reuters''. July 25, 2019. Retrieved July 25, 2019.</ref>

Johnson immediately put his cabinet to work preparing for a "no-deal" Brexit,<ref>Multiple references:
*Friedman, Victoria (July 29, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/29/johnson-sets-up-brexit-war-cabinet-no-deal-preparation-number-one-priority/ Johnson Sets up Brexit ‘War Cabinet’, No Deal Preparation ‘Number One Priority’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 29, 2019.
*Shipman, Tim (July 28, 2019). [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-vows-no-deal-brexit-by-any-means-necessary-55tjljkfw Boris Johnson vows no‑deal Brexit ‘by any means necessary’]. ''The Times''. Retrieved July 28, 2019.
*Falconer, Rebecca (July 28, 2019). [https://www.axios.com/boris-johnson-brexit-no-deal-war-cabinet-1bf3d0b3-18e3-427e-b4c5-c506b31fad12.html Boris Johnson forms "war cabinet" to prepare for no-deal Brexit]. ''Axios''. Retrieved July 28, 2019.
*MacLennan, Kylie (July 28, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/assuming-eu-will-not-budge-britain-ramps-up-preparations-for-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1UN08Q Assuming EU will not budge, Britain ramps up preparations for no-deal Brexit]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 28, 2019.
See also:
*Montgomery, Jack (July 28, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/28/chancellor-javid-treasury-turbocharging-preparations-no-deal-brexit/ Chancellor Javid: Treasury ‘Turbocharging Preparations’ for No Deal Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 28, 2019.
*Malnick, Edward (July 27, 2019). [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/27/sajid-javids-brexit-blitz-prepare-no-deal/ Sajid Javid to announce Brexit spending blitz to prepare for no deal]. ''The Telegraph''. Retrieved July 28, 2019.
* https://www.ft.com/content/5c65e0e4-b118-11e9-bec9-fdcab53d6959
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-javid/uks-javid-to-ramp-up-funding-for-no-deal-brexit-preparations-paper-idUSKCN1UM0O9 UK's Javid to ramp up funding for no-deal Brexit preparations: paper]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved July 28, 2019.
*James, William (August 9, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-johnson/no-deal-brexit-preparation-is-top-priority-johnson-tells-officials-idUSKCN1UZ1I3 No-deal Brexit preparation is top priority, Johnson tells officials]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved August 9, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (August 10, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/10/johnson-tells-civil-servants-preparing-no-deal-brexit-top-priority/ Johnson Tells Civil Servants to Make Preparing for No-Deal Brexit ‘Top Priority’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 10, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (September 2, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/02/govt-prepares-no-deal-brexit-get-ready-campaign/ Johnson Govt Prepares for No Deal Brexit with ‘Get Ready’ Campaign]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 2, 2019.</ref> and he stated he would refuse to negotiate with the EU unless it dropped its Irish backstop demand.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (July 29, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/07/29/johnson-plays-hardball-wont-meet-with-eu-until-they-remove-backstop/ Johnson Plays Hardball, Won’t Meet with EU Until They Remove Backstop]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved July 29, 2019. See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (August 15, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/15/johnson-accuses-remainer-mps-collaborating-eu-stop-brexit/ Boris Accuses Remainer MPs of ‘Collaborating’ with EU to Stop Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 15, 2019.</ref> Very early in Johnson's tenure, his government doubled the amount of money devoted to preparing for a "no-deal" Brexit,<ref>Multiple references:
*[https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49183324 No-deal Brexit plans to get £2.1bn boost]. ''BBC News''. July 31, 2019. Retrieved July 31, 2019.
*MacAskill, Andrew (July 31, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-javid/britain-to-spend-an-extra-2-1-billion-on-no-deal-brexit-planning-idUSKCN1UQ2RR Britain to spend an extra £2.1 billion on no-deal Brexit planning]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved August 1, 2019.
See also:
*Piper, Elizabeth (August 4, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/after-brexit-pledges-british-pm-johnson-announces-cash-injection-for-health-idUSKCN1UU0OF After Brexit pledges, British PM Johnson announces cash injection for health]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved August 4, 2019.</ref> and his treasury minister announced a one-year spending review to help the government prepare for a "no-deal" Brexit.<ref>Markham, Joe (August 9, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/09/chancellor-announces-special-spending-review-to-prepare-for-brexit/ Chancellor Announces Special Spending Review to Prepare for Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 9, 2019.</ref> The government announced that in the event of a "no-deal" Brexit, it would end its adherence to the EU's "freedom of movement" rules.<ref>Multiple references:
*Markham, Joe (August 19, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/19/home-secretary-to-end-free-movement-on-october-31st/ Patel: UK Government to End Free Migration Regime on Brexit Day]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 19, 2019.
*MacLellan, Kylie (August 19, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-immigration/uk-plans-to-end-eu-freedom-of-movement-immediately-in-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1V91IN UK plans to end EU freedom of movement immediately in no-deal Brexit]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved August 19, 2019.</ref> Johnson voiced confidence and patriotism in his country.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (August 26, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/johnson-uk-great-country-can-easily-cope-no-deal-brexit/ Johnson: UK Is a ‘Great Country’ and Can ‘Easily Cope’ with No Deal Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 26, 2019.</ref> However, regarding the Brexit agreement with the EU, Johnson only called for the EU to remove the Northern Ireland backstop in order for him to accept it, angering Brexit supporters.<ref>Friedman, Victoria (August 28, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/28/johnson-faces-brexiteer-backlash-only-seeking-changes-backstop/ Johnson Faces Brexiteer Backlash over Only Seeking Changes to the Backstop]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.</ref> In August 2019, the EU appeared to take a softer stance on renegotiating the Brexit agreement, but this public stance was actually a way to deflect blame in the event of a no-deal Brexit.<ref>Baczynska, Gabriela (August 28, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-diplomacy-analysis/eus-softer-tone-a-ploy-to-sidestep-blame-in-case-of-a-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1VI1ZP EU's softer tone a ploy to sidestep blame in case of a no-deal Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.</ref>

In August 2019, Johnson's government announced it would stop sending its officials to most EU meetings.<ref>Multiple references:
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-meetings/britain-to-unshackle-officials-from-most-eu-meetings-ahead-of-brexit-idUSKCN1VA1GH Britain to 'unshackle' officials from most EU meetings ahead of Brexit]. ''Reuters''. August 20, 2019. Retrieved August 20, 2019.
*Dickson, Annabelle (August 20, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-officials-to-withdraw-from-eu-meetings-from-september-1/ UK officials to withdraw from EU meetings from September 1]. ''Politico''. Retrieved August 20, 2019.</ref>

On August 28, 2019, Johnson announced he would ask the queen to suspend parliament as Brexit Day approached.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (August 28, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/28/british-government-to-suspend-parliament-for-five-weeks-outraging-anti-brexit-rebels/ British Government to Suspend Parliament For Five Weeks, Outraging Anti-Brexit Rebels]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Colchester, Max (August 28, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-s-johnson-to-ask-queen-to-suspend-parliament-making-no-deal-brexit-more-likely-11566985097 Boris Johnson Moves to Suspend Parliament, Making No-Deal Brexit More Likely]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Darrah, Nicole (August 28, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/boris-johnson-queen-suspend-parliament-brexit Boris Johnson asks queen to suspend Parliament to push through no-deal Brexit]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Rodrigo, Chris Mills (August 28, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/459076-johnson-asking-for-suspension-of-uk-parliament-to-push-through-brexit Johnson asks Queen to suspend UK Parliament ahead of Brexit deadline]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Murphy, James (August 28, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33261-boris-johnson-plays-queen-card-monarch-agrees-to-shut-down-parliament-ahead-of-brexit Boris Johnson Plays Queen Card: Monarch Agrees to Shut Down Parliament Ahead of Brexit]. ''The New American''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (August 28, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/28/tin-pot-dictator-remainers-melt-down-over-bojo-suspending-parliament/ ‘Tin Pot Dictator’: Remainers Melt down over BoJo Suspending Parliament]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Axelrod, Tal (August 28, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/459108-queen-agrees-to-suspend-parliament-as-johnson-seeks-to-deter-no Queen agrees to suspend UK Parliament as Johnson seeks to deter no-deal Brexit showdown]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (August 28, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/28/its-official-suspension-of-uk-parliament-approved-by-queen-elizabeth-ii/ It’s Official: Suspension of UK Parliament Approved by Queen Elizabeth II]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved August 28, 2019.
*Campisi, Jessica (September 10, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/460642-johnson-suspends-uk-parliament-in-brexit-push Johnson suspends UK Parliament in Brexit push]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved September 10, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill (September 10, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/1673b60fcc264a4ebaea2d08bb0bb05f Johnson suspends UK Parliament after latest Brexit defeat]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved September 10, 2019.</ref> He threatened to expel any Tory MP who voted to delay or block Brexit.<ref>Multiple references:
*Murphy, James (September 2, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33296-boris-johnson-threatens-to-purge-tory-rebels-unless-they-get-on-board-his-brexit-train Boris Johnson Threatens to Purge Tory Rebels Unless They get on Board his Brexit Train]. ''The New American''. Retrieved September 3, 2019.
*Montgomery, Jack (September 2, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/02/ultimatum-tory-remain-mps-be-kicked-out-party-back-brexit-delay/ Ultimatum: Tory Remain MPs to Be Kicked Out of Party If They Back Brexit Delay]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 2, 2019.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (September 2, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/brexit-battle-lines-harden-as-lawmakers-prepare-for-parliamentary-showdown-11567432609 U.K.’s Johnson Brandishes Election in Bid to Stop Parliament From Foiling Brexit]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 2, 2019.</ref> Parliament voted to block a no-deal Brexit and Johnson followed through on his threat.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 4, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/04/bojo-purges-party-of-anti-brexit-rebel-former-ministers/ BoJo Purges Party of Anti-Brexit Rebel Former Ministers]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 4, 2019.
*[https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/04/brexit-delay-bill-passes-commons-johnson-tables-motion-election/ Brexit Delay Bill Passes in Commons, Johnson Tables Motion for Election]. ''Breitbart News'' (from the ''Associated Press''). September 4, 2019. Retrieved September 4, 2019.
See also:
*Delingpole, James (September 6, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/06/boris-has-drained-the-swamp-saved-the-conservatives/ Delingpole: Rejoice! Rejoice! Boris Johnson Has Drained the Swamp and Saved the Conservatives]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 6, 2019.</ref> While calling for a new election for two years, the Labor Party suddenly opposed holding a new election after Johnson announced his support for it.<ref>Multiple references:
*Murphy, James (September 5, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33342-as-the-uk-turns-more-brexit-drama-delay-and-dithering-in-british-parliament As the U.K. Turns: More Brexit Drama, Delay, and Dithering in British Parliament]. ''The New American''. Retrieved September 5, 2019.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 4, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/04/would-turkeys-vote-for-christmas-why-mps-will-resist-boris-johnsons-snap-election/ Would Turkeys Vote For Christmas? Why MPs Will Resist Boris Johnson’s Snap Election]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 4, 2019.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 4, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/04/after-years-of-demanding-an-election-labours-corbyn-refuses-vote-offered-by-boris-johnson/ After Years of Demanding an Election, Labour’s Corbyn Refuses Vote Offered by Boris Johnson]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 4, 2019.
*Douglas, Jason (September 4, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-lawmakers-seek-to-delay-brexit-again-dealing-johnson-another-blow-11567602853 U.K. Lawmakers Foil Johnson With Votes to Delay Brexit and Bar Snap Election]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 4, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill; Kirka, Danica (September 4, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/3539dba87ab343a8a7252bb0387addc3 Johnson’s Brexit plans in crisis after 3rd defeat in 2 days]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved September 4, 2019.</ref> Johnson continued voicing support for achieving Brexit,<ref>Multiple references:
*Lovell, Hunter (September 5, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/boris-johnson-on-delaying-brexit-id-rather-be-dead-in-a-ditch Boris Johnson on delaying Brexit: 'I'd rather be dead in a ditch']. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved September 5, 2019.
*Hannon, Paul; Douglas, Jason (September 9, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/boris-johnson-insists-he-wants-a-brexit-deal-despite-no-deal-planning-11568037248 Boris Johnson Vows Oct. 31 Brexit as Law Rules Out No Deal, Election Bid Fails]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.
*James, William; MacLellan, Kylie (September 9, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/british-pm-johnson-tells-parliament-you-can-tie-my-hands-but-i-will-not-delay-brexit-idUSKCN1VU0PH British PM Johnson tells parliament: You can tie my hands, but I will not delay Brexit]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (September 16, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/16/pm-johnson-stands-brexit-date-ahead-meeting-top-eurocrat/ PM Johnson Stands by Exit Date Ahead of Meeting with Top Eurocrat, Condemns MPs ‘Trying to Crush Brexit’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 16, 2019.</ref> and he refused to request a Brexit extension from the EU.<ref>Multiple references:
*Friedman, Victoria (September 7, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/07/defiant-johnson-will-not-ask-eu-brexit-delay-remainers-ready-take-pm-court/ Defiant Johnson ‘Will Not’ Ask EU for Brexit Delay, Remainers Ready to Take PM to Court]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 7, 2019.
*Piper, Elizabeth (September 8, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/sticking-to-brexit-plan-uks-johnson-will-not-seek-a-delay-idUSKCN1VT0BS Sticking to Brexit plan, UK's Johnson will not seek a delay]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved September 8, 2019.
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 9, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/09/future-of-october-31st-brexit-in-doubt-as-parliament-attempts-to-force-three-month-delay/ Future of October 31st Brexit In Doubt As Parliament Attempts to Force Three Month Delay]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.
See also:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 9, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/09/parliament-votes-against-early-election-as-pm-boris-reaffirms-he-will-not-seek-brexit-extension/ Parliament Votes Against Early Election as PM Boris Reaffirms He Will Not Seek Brexit Extension]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 9, 2019.</ref> The UK Supreme Court, however, ruled against Johnson's parliamentary suspension on September 24, 2019.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/boris-johnson-suspended-parliament-unlawfully-uk-supreme-court-finds/ Boris Johnson Suspended Parliament Unlawfully, UK Supreme Court Finds]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Wallace, Danielle (September 24, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/boris-johnsons-suspension-of-parliament-ruled-unlawful-by-uk-supreme-court Boris Johnson's suspension of Parliament ruled unlawful by UK Supreme Court]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Douglas, Jason; Fidler, Stephen (September 24, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-court-rules-against-johnsons-freeze-on-parliament-11569318257 Boris Johnson Acted Illegally in Suspending Parliament, U.K.’s Highest Court Rules]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/farage-prorogation-worst-political-decision-ever-reactions-supreme-court-ruling/ Farage Calls Prorogation ‘Worst Political Decision Ever’: Reactions to Supreme Court Ruling]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Delingpole, James (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/supreme-court-enemies-of-the-people-sabotage-brexit/ Delingpole: Judicial Enemies of the People Sabotage Brexit Again]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Delingpole, James (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/a-sinister-shadow-government-is-killing-brexit/ Delingpole: A Sinister, Nebulous Shadow Government Is Holding Brexit Hostage]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
*Hannan, Dan (September 26, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/boris-brexit-and-the-politicization-of-britains-judiciary Boris, Brexit and the politicization of Britain's judiciary]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved September 27, 2019.
Johnson's response after Parliament reconvened:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 25, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/25/bojo-throws-down-gauntlet-fight-election-or-ill-deliver-brexit/ PM Bojo Throws Down the Gauntlet to Remainers: Challenge me in an Election or I’ll Deliver Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 25, 2019.
*Colchester, Max (September 25, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/british-leader-goads-rivals-to-end-his-rule-call-new-vote-11569443576 British Leader Goads Rivals to End His Rule, Call New Vote]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved September 25, 2019.</ref>

Despite pushing for Brexit, Johnson made the mistake of publicly disavowing and insulting [[Nigel Farage]] when he proposed forming an electoral coalition – and incident which illustrated that Johnson was not a political conservative.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (September 11, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/11/embattled-boris-slaps-down-farages-offer-of-help-not-fit-and-proper-persons/ Embattled Boris Slaps Down Farage’s Offer of Help: ‘Not Fit and Proper Persons’]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 11, 2019.
*Faulconbridge, Guy; James, William (September 11, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-farage/uk-pm-johnson-rules-out-farage-deal-despite-warning-of-electoral-kicking-idUSKCN1VW12Q UK PM Johnson rules out Farage deal despite warning of electoral 'kicking']. ''Reuters''. Retrieved September 11, 2019.
Later comments:
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-johnson-farage/pm-johnson-says-no-to-election-pact-with-brexit-party-idUSKBN1W82N1 PM Johnson says no to election pact with Brexit Party]. ''Reuters''. September 23, 2019. Retrieved September 23, 2019.
*Casalicchio, Emilio (September 23, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/johnson-rejects-uk-election-pact-with-nigel-farage/ Johnson rejects UK election pact with Nigel Farage]. ''Politico''. Retrieved September 23, 2019.
*Montgomery, Jack; Lane, Oliver JJ (September 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/24/boris-refuses-farages-offer-of-an-electoral-pact-to-deliver-brexit/ Boris Refuses Farage’s Offer of an Electoral Pact to Deliver Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 24, 2019.
See also:
*Delingpole, James (September 11, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/11/boris-johnson-should-not-be-attacking-nigel-farage/ Delingpole: Boris Attacking Farage Is a Foolish, Unforced Error]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 11, 2019.
*Fridman, Victoria (September 13, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/09/13/spartans-call-johnson-reverse-rejection-farage-election-pact/ Brexit Spartans Call for Johnson to Reverse Rejection of Farage Election Pact]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved September 13, 2019.</ref>

Johnson announced a revised Brexit deal proposal on October 2, 2019.<ref>Multiple references:
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (October 2, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/boris-johnson-announces-last-ditch-brexit-proposal-11570014506 Boris Johnson Makes Last-Ditch Brexit Bid to EU]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved October 2, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill; Kirka, Danica (October 2, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/04a5ab581a1747528024e94285b29c95 Boris Johnson: UK is offering Brexit ‘compromise’ to EU]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 2, 2019.
*Piper, Elizabeth; James, William; MacLellan, Kylie (October 1, 2019). [hhttps://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu/pm-johnson-makes-final-brexit-offer-draws-guarded-welcome-from-eu-idUSKBN1WG4S8 PM Johnson makes final Brexit offer, draws guarded welcome from EU]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 2, 2019.
See also:
*Friedman, Victoria (October 2, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/02/eu-rejects-boriss-politically-unacceptable-final-brexit-offer/ Europeans Reject Boris’s Politically ‘Unacceptable’ Final Brexit Offer]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 2, 2019.
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-nireland/dup-deputy-leader-says-ireland-reaction-shows-backstop-a-trap-idUSKBN1WI1X7 DUP deputy leader says Ireland reaction shows backstop a trap]. ''Reuters''. October 3, 2019. Retrieved October 3, 2019.
*Zindulka, Kurt (October 14, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/14/lets-finish-this-off-boris-pitches-take-leave-last-ditch-brexit-deal/ ‘Let’s Finish This off’: Boris Pitches a Take it or Leave it, Last Ditch Brexit Deal]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 14, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (October 22, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/22/boris-deal-uk-remains-subject-eu-court-rulings-brexit/ Boris Deal Means UK Subject to EU Court Rulings up to 3 Years After Brexit]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 22, 2019.
*Gomez, Christian (October 22, 2019). [https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/33814-problems-with-boris-johnson-s-brexit-mirror-those-of-usmca Problems With Boris Johnson’s “Brexit” Mirror Those of USMCA]. ''The New American''. Retrieved October 22, 2019.</ref> On October 17, 2019, Johnson announced he had reached an agreement with the EU.<ref>Multiple references:
*Bydryk, Zack (October 17, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/466223-boris-johnson-says-brexit-deal-between-uk-eu-reached Boris Johnson says Brexit deal between UK, EU reached]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (October 17, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/17/weve-got-great-new-deal-brexit-treat-agreed-uk-eu/ ‘We’ve Got a Great New Deal’: Brexit Treaty Agreed by Boris Johnson and EU]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Darrah, Nicole (October 17, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/brexit-breakthrough-boris-johnson-deal-eu-vote Brexit breakthrough: Boris Johnson agrees 'great new deal' with EU; British MPs to vote Saturday]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Halaschak, Zachary (October 17, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/weve-got-a-great-deal-uk-and-eu-agree-to-brexit-deal 'We’ve got a great deal': UK and EU agree to Brexit deal]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Norman, Laurence; Colchester, Max (October 17, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/brexit-talks-are-dealt-a-blow-as-northern-irish-party-rejects-draft-11571294766 U.K., EU Agree on Draft Brexit Deal, Paving Way for Key Vote]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Casert, Raf; Lawless, Jill (October 17, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/e28aa5a31bc74a84844e7277821cf9b8 UK, EU reach tentative Brexit deal; still needs ratification]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Piper, Elizabeth; Chalmers, John (October 17, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/britain-clinches-brexit-deal-johnson-now-faces-parliament-hurdle-idUSKBN1WW13M Britain clinches Brexit deal, Johnson now faces parliament hurdle]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
See also:
*Milliken, David; John, Mark (October 17, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-economy/uk-heading-for-fairly-hard-brexit-if-johnson-deal-passes-idUSKBN1WW2BO UK heading for 'fairly hard' Brexit if Johnson deal passes]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Herszenhorn, David M.; Barigazzi, Jacopo; Von der Burchard, Hans (October 17, 2019). [https://www.politico.eu/article/concessions-eu-led-brexit-deal/ 3 concessions by the EU that led to a Brexit deal]. ''Politico''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.</ref> The conservative Northern Irish [[Democratic Unionist Party]] announced it would oppose the proposed agreement,<ref>Multiple references:
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-dup-statement-text/northern-irelands-dup-party-wont-support-new-brexit-deal-idUSKBN1WW1RA Northern Ireland's DUP party won't support new Brexit deal]. ''Reuters''. October 17, 2019. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-letwin-dup/northern-irelands-dup-say-they-will-use-every-strategy-to-seek-changes-to-brexit-deal-idUSKBN1WY0BZ Northern Ireland's DUP say they will use every strategy to seek changes to Brexit deal]. ''Reuters''. October 19, 2019. Retrieved October 19, 2019.</ref><ref name="PaisleyFarage">Lane, Oliver JJ; Montgomery, Jack (October 19, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/19/no-surrender-ian-paisley-nigel-farage-denounce-boriss-brexit-deal/ ‘No Surrender’ – Ian Paisley, Nigel Farage Denounce Boris’s Brexit Deal]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.</ref> and [[Brexit Party]] leader [[Nigel Farage]] also criticized it.<ref name="PaisleyFarage"/><ref>Multiple references:
*Friedman, Victoria (October 17, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/17/brexit-deal-reaction-not-brexit-farage-dup/ Farage Says New Deal Is ‘Just Not Brexit’ as DUP Says It Won’t Support It]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 17, 2019.
*Friedman, Victoria (October 24, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/24/farage-treaty-not-brexit-urges-boris-drop-deal-partnership/ Farage Says Treaty ‘Is Not Brexit’, Tells Boris to Drop Deal and Agree Election Pact]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 24, 2019.</ref> On October 19, 2019, the House of Commons voted to delay the vote on the agreement and to delay Brexit if the agreement did not pass.<ref>Multiple references:
*Shaw, Adam (October 19, 2019). [https://www.foxnews.com/world/brexit-delay-vote-derailed Brexit vote derailed at last minute by rebel lawmakers; Boris Johnson pledges not to negotiate a delay]. ''Fox News''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Becker, Carlin (October 19, 2019). [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/brexit-deal-on-hold-as-uk-parliament-votes-to-withhold-full-approval Anti-Brexit forces block UK Parliament vote on Boris Johnson deal with EU]. ''Washington Examiner''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (October 19, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-parliament-poised-to-force-delay-on-critical-brexit-vote-11571484241 U.K. Parliament Defers Critical Vote, Likely Forcing Brexit Delay]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill; Corder, Mike (October 19, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/1e0eeb157ec143b48cdcc1d6860ae493 UK lawmakers vote to delay final Brexit decision again]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50110601 Brexit: Johnson vows to press on despite defeat over deal delay]. ''BBC News''. October 19, 2019. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*James, William, Piper, Elizabeth; MacLellan, Kylie (October 19, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/johnson-defiant-after-british-parliament-votes-to-force-brexit-delay-idUSKBN1WX2M2 Johnson defiant after British parliament votes to force Brexit delay]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Frazin, Rachel (October 19, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/466573-british-parliament-passes-amendment-to-delay-brexit-decision British Parliament passes amendment to delay Brexit decision]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.</ref> Later in the day, Johnson requested a Brexit extension despite promising not to take such an action.<ref>Multiple references:
*Montgomery, Jack (October 20, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/20/boris-sends-eu-letters-one-asking-for-brexit-delay-one-saying-he-doesnt-want-one/ Boris Sends EU Letters: One Asking for Brexit Delay, One Saying He Doesn’t Want One]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 20, 2019.
*Bowden, John (October 19, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/466599-uks-boris-johnson-reverses-requests-extension-of-brexit-deadline U.K.'s Boris Johnson reverses, requests extension of Brexit deadline]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Colchester, Max (October 19, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-parliament-poised-to-force-delay-on-critical-brexit-vote-11571484241 British Government Asks for EU Delay Amid Johnson Resistance]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill; Casert, Raf (October 19, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/1e0eeb157ec143b48cdcc1d6860ae493 UK’s Johnson asks for Brexit delay, but argues against it]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Piper, Elizabeth (October 19, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu/uk-pm-sends-unsigned-letter-to-eu-asking-for-brexit-delay-idUSKBN1WY0Q9 UK PM sends unsigned letter to EU asking for Brexit delay]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 19, 2019.
*Corder, Mike; Katz, Gregory (October 20, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/42d3b01c903b4427940edfebd51299e0 UK’s Johnson asks for a Brexit delay that he doesn’t want]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 20, 2019.
See also:
*MacLellan, Kylie; Sandle, Paul (October 19, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/brexit-will-happen-on-october-31-despite-pms-unsigned-delay-request-uk-says-idUSKBN1WY0Q6 Brexit will happen on October 31 despite PM's unsigned delay request, UK says]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 20, 2019.</ref> On October 22, 2019, Parliament voted in favor of the Brexit deal but voted against Johnson's three-day schedule for giving the final approval of the deal.<ref>Multiple references:
*Lane, Oliver JJ (October 22, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/22/boris-johnsons-brexit-plan-delayed-as-parliament-votes-against-october-31st-timetable/ Boris Johnson’s Brexit Plan Delayed as Parliament Votes Against October 31st Timetable]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 22, 2019.
*Colchester, Max; Douglas, Jason (October 22, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/boris-johnsons-brexit-deal-clears-vital-hurdle-in-parliament-11571768188 Johnson’s Brexit Deal Clears Hurdle in Parliament but His Timetable Is Rejected]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved October 22, 2019.
*Lawless, Jill; Kirka, Danica (October 22, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/fa378c6a8b5e43c8812115fc8cee3974 Boris Johnson inches toward securing Brexit but delay likely]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 22, 2019.</ref> The EU subsequently granted yet another extension until January 31, 2020.<ref>Multple references:
*[https://www.foxnews.com/world/eu-allows-new-brexit-extension-uk-gets-more-time-to-negotiate-divorce EU allows new Brexit extension, UK gets more time to negotiate divorce]. ''Fox News''. October 28, 2019. Retrieved October 28, 2019.
*Norman, Laurence (October 28, 2019). [https://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-extends-brexit-deadline-until-jan-31-11572255175 EU Extends Brexit Deadline Until Jan. 31]. ''The Wall Street Journal''. Retrieved October 28, 2019.
*Petrequin, Samuel (October 28, 2019). [https://www.apnews.com/dd63f54bee064ddda7435778490f4a45 EU grants Brexit delay to Jan. 31; UK ponders new election]. ''Associated Press''. Retrieved October 28, 2019.
*Baczynska, Gabriela; James, William (October 28, 2019). [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/eu-nations-agree-brexit-delay-until-january-31-as-pm-johnson-seeks-election-idUSKBN1X70NT EU nations agree Brexit delay until January 31 as PM Johnson seeks election]. ''Reuters''. Retrieved October 28, 2019.
*Gstalter, Morgan (October 28, 2019). [https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/467686-eu-pushes-brexit-deadline-back-to-jan-31 EU pushes Brexit deadline back to Jan. 31]. ''The Hill''. Retrieved October 28, 2019.
See also:
*Montgomery, Jack (October 28, 2019). [https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/28/bojo-formally-accepts-brexit-delay-begs-eu-not-delay-again-2020/ Boris Formally Accepts Brexit Delay, Begs EU Not to Delay AGAIN in 2020]. ''Breitbart News''. Retrieved October 28, 2019.</ref>

== See also ==
* [[United Kingdom Independence Party]]
* [[Grexit]]
* [[Examples of EU regulations on Britain]]
* [[European migrant crisis]]

== External links ==
* [http://eureferendum.blogspot.co.uk/ EU Referendum]
* [http://youtu.be/eYqzcqDtL3k Brexit The Movie]

== References ==
{{Reflist|colwidth=35em}}

{{Nationalism}}
{{Globalism}}
[[Category:European Politics]]
[[Category:United Kingdom]]
[[Category:Political Terms]]
[[Category:British Empire]]
[[Category:Euroskepticism]]

Pi

2019-10-29T01:01:59Z

JohnZ: links

'''Pi''', or '''Archimedes' constant''', is an important [[mathematics|mathematical]] constant defined as the [[ratio]] of the [[circumference]] of a [[circle]] to its [[diameter]], and represented by the 16th letter of the Greek alphabet, '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>'''. It was first used with its current meaning in 1706 by a Welsh mathematician William Jones.<ref name="hist">{{cite web
| url = http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/history/HistTopics/Pi_through_the_ages.html
| title = A history or Pi
| accessdate = 2012-02-11}}</ref>, who selected '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' because it is the first letter of the Greek word for [[perimeter]] (''περίμετρος''), i.e. the circumference of a circle is its perimeter. A Swiss mathematician, [[Leonhard Euler]], brought the concept into general use in 1737.

The value of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' is approximately 3.1416, or 22/7. The exact value cannot be expressed as a [[fraction]] or as a [[decimal]] number, regardless of how many [[digit]]s are used. Johann Heinrich Lambert proved this in 1761 by showing that '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' is an [[irrational number]], which means that it can't be expressed as a fraction.<ref>{{cite web
| url = http://turnbull.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Lambert.html
| title = Biography of Johann Heinrich Lambert
| accessdate = 2012-02-12}}</ref> In 1882, Carl Louis Ferdinand von Lindeman proved that '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' is also a [[transcendental number]], which means that it can't be expressed as the solution to any simple [[equation]].<ref>{{cite web
| url = http://turnbull.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Lindemann.html
| title = Biography of Carl Louis Ferdinand von Lindemann
| accessdate = 2012-02-12}}</ref>

==History==
Mathematicians have worked for centuries to calculate '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to more and more decimal places. To some extent, the progress of mathematics, or at least of computation, can be gauged by the progress in the number of digits to which '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' has been calculated.

Some ancients expressed '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' by using fractional approximations. The Rhind, or Ahmes Papyrus (''c.'' 1650 B.C.)<ref>http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/Ancient-Africa/mad_ancient_egyptpapyrus.html</ref><ref>https://www.math.tamu.edu/~don.allen/history/egypt/node3.html</ref> has shown that the [[ancient Egypt]]ians had determined the value for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to be 3.1605. The [[Babylonia]]n value from the same era was 3 1/8 = 3.125.<ref>Boyer, ''A History of Mathematics'', 2nd edition</ref>, coming to within 1 percent accuracy for both<ref>https://www.maa.org/press/periodicals/convergence/mathematical-treasure-old-babylonian-area-calculation</ref>.

[[Archimedes]] of Syracuse (287-212 BC) carried out "the first theoretical calculation" of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>'''.<ref>[http://veling.nl/anne/templars/Pi_through_the_ages.html Pi through the ages]</ref>, using regular polygons with a total of 96 sides, within and circumscribing a circle, and in about 225 B.C. he came up with a formula between the folowing numbers:
<center><math>3 \dfrac {1} {7} < \pi < 3 \dfrac {10} {71}</math></center>

This is ten times better than the Egyptian and Babylonian values, and it is within 0.04 percent of the correct value. The German-Dutch mathematician Ludolph Van Ceulen used Archimedes's formula to calculate '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to 32 digits in 1615. He was so proud of his achievement that he had the digits engraved on his tombstone<ref>https://www.ams.org/publicoutreach/math-history/hap-6-pi.pdf</ref>.

Towards the end of the 17th century mathematical analysis had new methods of making calculations, and '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' was no exception. Brilliant mathematicians had made individual calculations for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' in a variety of ways. In 1593 [[François Viète]] (1540-1603) wrote the expression:

<center><math>\pi = 2 \times \dfrac 2 {\sqrt 2} \times \dfrac 2 {\sqrt {2 + \sqrt 2} } \times \dfrac 2 {\sqrt {2 + \sqrt {2 + \sqrt 2} } } \times \dfrac 2 {\sqrt {2 + \sqrt {2 + \sqrt {2 + \sqrt 2 } } } } \times \cdots</math></center>

[[John Wallis]] (1616-1703) made his expression 1655, proving that:
<center><math>\frac{\pi}{2} = \frac21\cdot\frac23\cdot\frac43\cdot\frac45\cdot\frac65\cdot\frac67\cdots</math></center>

[[William Brouncker]] (1620-1684) discovered the continued fraction in 1658:
<center><math>
\frac \pi 4 = \cfrac{1}{1+\cfrac{1^2}{2+\cfrac{3^2}{2+\cfrac{5^2}{2+\cfrac{7^2}{2+\cfrac{9^2}{2+\ddots}}}}}}
</math></center>

During the plague of 1665-1666, [[Isaac Newton]] was confined to the English village of Woolsthorpe. There he calculated '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to 16 digits.

<center><math>\pi = \dfrac {3 \sqrt 3} 4 + 24 \left({\dfrac 1 {12} - \dfrac 1 {5 \times 2^5} - \dfrac 1 {28 \times 2^7} - \dfrac 1 {72 \times 2^9} - \cdots}\right)</math></center>

Unlike Van Ceulen, Newton did not consider his calculations to be an achievement. "I am ashamed to tell you to how many figures I carried these computations, having no other business at the time," he wrote.<ref>Beckmann, Petr (2015-01-06). ''A History of Pi'' (Kindle Locations 2249-2250). St. Martin's Press. Kindle Edition.</ref>

[[Gottfried Leibniz|Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz]] (1646-1716) published a series for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' in 1673, coming up with the formulas:
<center><math>\dfrac \pi 4 = 1 - \dfrac 1 3 + \dfrac 1 5 - \dfrac 1 7 + \dfrac 1 9 - \cdots \approx 0.78539 \, 81633 \, 9744 \ldots</math><ref>https://oeis.org/A003881</ref></center>

<center><math>\displaystyle \pi = 4 \sum_{k \mathop \ge 0} \left({-1}\right)^k \frac 1 {2 k + 1}</math></center>

Brouncker's convergents are related to the [[Leibniz formula for pi]]: for instance
<center><math>
\frac{1}{1+\frac{1^2}{2}} = \frac{2}{3} = 1 - \frac{1}{3}
</math>
and
:<math>
\frac{1}{1+\frac{1^2}{2+\frac{3^2}{2}}} = \frac{13}{15} = 1 - \frac{1}{3} + \frac{1}{5}.
</math></center>

In 1706, John Machin, secretary of [[England]]'s Royal Society, developed a quickly converging formula for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' and used it to calculated the first 100 digits. In 1844, the idiot savant Johann Dase of [[Hamburg]] used Machin's formula to calculate 200 digits in less than two months.<ref>Beckmann</ref> In contrast, William Shanks spent twenty years calculating '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to 707 places, a task he completed in 1873. In 1945, it was discovered that only the first 527 of Shanks's digits were correct.

ENIAC, the first electronic [[computer]], took seventy hours to calculate 2,037 digits in 1949. In 2008, the first million digits of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' were published on [[Project Gutenberg]].<ref>Hemphill, Scott, ''[https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/50 Pi to 1,000,000 places]''.</ref> In 2014, the anonymous programmer Houkouonchi calculated the first 13.3 trillion digits of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' in 208 days.<ref>Yee, Alexander, "[http://www.numberworld.org/y-cruncher/ y-cruncher - A Multi-Threaded Pi-Program]"</ref> This result has not been published.

=='''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' in mathematics==
It's impossible to overestimate the importance of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' (and ''[[e]]'') for mathematics. These values are tied by [[Euler's Formula|Euler's identity]]:

:<math>e^{\pi \imath} +1 = 0</math>.

'''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' may be used to determine the area of a circle:<ref>{{cite web
| url = http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/circle/area.html
| title = The Circle Area Formula
| accessdate = 2012-02-13}}</ref>

:<big><math>Area= \pi r^{2}</math></big>

==Recreation==
Memorizing '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' is a challenge that appeals to some people. Mnemonics have been devised. Counting the letters in each word of the phrase "Now I want a drink—alcoholic, of course" gives '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to seven places (which is more than enough for all ordinary purposes). Numerous other mnemonics of this kind have been devised; in 1995, Michael Keith wrote one entitled [http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/mikerav.htm Near a Raven] which simultaneously parodies [[Edgar Allen Poe]]'s poem ''The Raven,'' while encoding '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' to 740 places.

March 14 marks [[Pi Day]], a holiday on which the mathematical constant is celebrated. The date, 3/14, comes from the first three digits of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>'''. Some people begin their celebration at 1:59 pm, derived from the following three digits.

Pi Approximation Day is a similar holiday, celebrated on 22 July (from the approximation 22/7).<ref>[https://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/mathscience/2007-03-14-pi-day_N.htm USA Today (3/14/2007) - Pi-day]</ref>

The value of pi is approximately:

{{quotebox|
3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706798214808651328230664709384460955058223172535940812848111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196442881097566593344612847564823378678316527120190914564856692...}}

==Does the Bible attempt to define pi?==
Virtually all serious students of the [[Bible]] say no. Still, critics frequently claim that the Bible contains an incorrect value for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''', and the question is raised frequently enough to earn mention in the [[Skeptics Annotated Bible]].

The claim is based on a verse in the [[I Kings|first book of Kings]]:
{{bible quote|He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten [[cubit]]s from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.|book=1_Kings|chap=7|verses=23|version=NIV}} Thus, critics say, the Bible claims that the value of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' is three, and is therefore in error. However, there are a number of assumptions in this claim, any of which might invalidate the argument if wrong:

* That the tools and system of measurement available to the builders were sufficiently accurate to distinguish between three and '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>'''.
* That the phrase translated as "circular in shape" means perfectly circular, not simply "round" as an ellipse is round.
* That the Bible is trying to provide a value for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''', and not merely describing the historical event of building this object.<ref name="math">{{cite web
| url = http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52573.html
| title = Discussion re rounding Pi
| accessdate = 2012-02-10}}</ref>
* That a value is ''wrong'' simply because it depends on imprecisely expressed divisors. The ratio that is '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' can be derived completely accurately for a whole range of values<ref name="math" /> even if the Sea is taken as a perfect circle, namely when, before rounding to the nearest [[whole number]], the diameter is known to be greater than 9.5 and less than about 9.708, and the circumference greater than about 29.845 and less than 30.5, it being quite common at the time to round to whole numbers.<ref name="jph">{{cite web
| url = http://www.tektonics.org/lp/piwrong.html
| title = Is the Bible wrong about pi?
| accessdate = 2012-02-10}}</ref>
* That both the [[diameter]] and the [[circumference]] are measuring the same edges. Since the sides of any practical vessel have thickness, it is possible that the diameter is an outside measurement and the circumference is an inside measurement.<ref name="jph" />
* That both the diameter and the circumference are measuring the same part of the object. The object is also described as having an outward-turned rim. The easiest places to measure the diameter would be across the wider rim, and the easiest place to measure the circumference would be around the body below the rim.<ref>{{cite web
| url = http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/1731/
| title = Does the Bible say Pi equals 3.0?
| accessdate = 2012-02-10}}</ref>

Common sense and a rudimentary knowledge of the Bible should cause one to question whether it sets out to define mathematical concepts. The creation of a "sea of cast metal" by human beings in ancient times, without modern construction tools and measuring equipment, does not require nor could it utilize a precise value for '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>'''. An even more fundamental objection is that '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' is an [[irrational number]], and therefore has an infinite number of digits. (A "closed form" of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' does exist, but requires mathematical notation that was invented many centuries later.) A decimal expression of '''<big><math>\pi</math></big>''' could not "fit" in the Bible, or in any other finite text.<ref name="math" />

==References==
<references/>

==See also==
*[[Pi Day]]
*[http://yacas.sourceforge.net/Algochapter5.html#c5s5 Calculation of pi with computers]

[[Category:Mathematics]]

Sue Eakin

2019-10-27T03:10:11Z

JohnZ: subbed intro

{{Infobox person
|name=Myrtle Sue Lyles Eakin
(Louisiana historian, professor, and journalist;
compiled ''Twelve Years a Slave'')
| birth_date=December 7, 1918
| birth_place=Rapides Parish, [[Louisiana]], [[United States|USA]]
| death_date=September 17, 2009 (aged 90)
| death_place=Bunkie, Avoyelles Parish,
| spouse=Paul Mechlin Eakin, Sr. (married 1941-1995, his death) 
'''Children''': 
Russell Lyles Eakin (deceased) 
Sara Eakin Kuhn 
Samuel Fred Eakin 
Frank William Eakin 
Paul M. Eakin, Jr. 
'''Parents''': 
Samuel Pickles and Mary Myrtle Guy Lyles 
'''Alma mater''': 
[[Louisiana State University]]
University of Louisiana at [[Lafayette]]
|religion=[[United Methodist]]<ref name=clamar/>
|party=Nonpartisan<ref name=clamar/>}}

'''Myrtle Sue Lyles Eakin''', known as '''Sue Eakin''' (December 7, 1918 – September 17, 2009),<ref>Obituary of Sue Lyles Eakin, Melancon Funeral Home, Bunkie, Louisiana, September 21, 2009.</ref> was an [[United States|American]] [[historian]], a [[professor]], and a [[journalist]] from Bunkie in Avoyelles Parish, [[Louisiana]]. She specialized in Louisiana history, particularly the Old South. Eakin is best known for documenting, annotating, and reviving interest in ''Twelve Years a Slave'' (1853), a [[slave]] narrative by Solomon Northup, a free man from [[New York]] who was kidnapped and sold into slavery in 1841.

A successful film version was released in 2013. It was directed by Steve McQueen, written by John Ridley, and starred Chiwetel Ejiofor as Solomon Northup. Principal photography was completed in the summer of 2012 in the [[New Orleans]] area. The film was nominated for nine [[Academy Award]]s, winning three: Best Picture, Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Supporting Actress.

In his acceptance speech, director McQueen thanked Eakin: "I'd like to thank this amazing historian, Sue Eakin, whose life, she gave her life's work to preserving Solomon’s book." Eakin discovered Northup's narrative when she was twelve years of age and again when in college. In time, she pushed the project to fruition after many years of work.<ref name=oscarwinner>{{cite web|url=http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/20140304/NEWS01/303040012/Central-Louisiana-historian-Sue-Eakin-s-work-gets-Oscar-mention|author=Jodi Belgard|title=Central Louisiana historian Sue Eakin's work gets Oscar mention"|date=March 4, 2014|publisher=''The Alexandria Town Talk''|accessdate=March 4, 2014; no longer on-line}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/12-years-a-slave-brad-pitt-and-steve-mcqueens-best-picture-oscars-acceptance-speech-in-full-9165040.html|title=''Twelve Years a Slave'': Brad Pitt and Steve MoQueen's Best Picture Oscars Acceptance Speech in Full|publisher=independent.co.uk.|author=Jenn Selby|date=March 3, 2014|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref>

==Background==

Eakin was born on the Compromise Plantation in the Lyles community at Loyd Bridge near Cheneyville in south Rapides Parish.. She was the eldest child of the nine surviving children of Samuel Pickles Lyles, Sr., and the former Mary Myrtle Guy.<ref name=clamar>{{cite web|url=http://cenlamar.com/2009/09/19/sue-eakin-1918-2009/|title=Sue Eakin (1918-2009)|publisher=cenlamar.com|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref> She attended local schools and graduated from Lecompte High School in nearby Lecompte.<ref name=adtt>Richard P. Sharkey, "Noted Louisiana historian Sue Eakin of Bunkie dead at 90," ''Alexandria Town Talk,'' September 21, 2009.</ref>

After completing her college degree, on January 31, 1941, Sue Lyles married Paul Mechlin Eakin, Sr.,<ref name=obit/> (1917-1995) of [[Pittsburgh]], urgh]], [[Pennsylvania]], later [[New Jersey]]. They resided in Bunkie, where he was an accountant and she a professional freelance journalist and a columnist]for ''The Alexandria Town Talk'' in [[Alexandria, Louisiana|Alexandria]], the ''Opelousas Daily World'' in Opelousas in St. Landry Parish, and the ''New Orleans Times-Picayune.'' From 1957 to 1959, Paul and Sue Eakin also owned and operated ''The Bunkie Record'' newspaper.<ref name=obit/>

At the age of forty-two in 1960, Eakin began graduate work at [[Louisiana State University]] in [[Baton Rouge]] to earn two master's degrees, one in journalism and the other in history. She was one of thirteen women students in the nation to receive an educational grant from the American Association of University Women.<ref name=adtt/>

==Teaching and research==

After completing her graduate degrees, Eakin began a 25-year teaching career at Louisiana State University at Alexandria. It had been established in 1960 as a junior college, and later developed as a four-year institution. In an interview with ''The Town Talk,'' Patsy K. Barber, an LSUA colleague, recalled Eakin as "a master teacher [who] researched, she knew her topic and knew how to place her topic into the larger setting. She could hold you spellbound. The creative ideas just spilled out."<ref name=adtt/> Barber and Eakin collaborated on several books about the history of Rapides Parish and Lecompte.<ref name=adtt/>

Eakin's best-known work is an annotated version of an 1853 slave narrative by Solomon Northup: ''Twelve Years a Slave—And Plantation Life in the Antebellum South.'' She co-edited the work with historian Joseph Logsdon;<ref name="Revival">{{cite web|url=http://lsupress.org/books/detail/twelve-years-a-slave/ |title='12 Years a Slave' prompts effort to recognize work of UNO historian in reviving tale|publisher=http://www.nola.com|date=|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref> together they annotated the account, retracing Northrup's journey and adding maps and other documentation. Their edition of ''Twelve Year a Slave'' was published in 1968 by LSU Press.<ref name="LSU Press">{{cite web|url=http://lsupress.org/books/detail/twelve-years-a-slave/|title=Twelve Years A Slave by Solomon Northup|publisher=[[Louisiana State University]] Press|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref> Northup was a free blackfrom Saratoga, [[New York]], who was kidnapped and sold into slavery in 1841, and transported from [[Washington, D.C.]], to Louisiana.<ref name=b&n12yrs>{{cite web|url=http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/twelve-years-a-slave-solomon-northup/1100059752?ean=9780807151457|title=Twelve Years a Slave by Solomon Northup: 9780807151457 NOOK Book (eBook) Barnes & Noble|publisher=Barnesandnoble.com llc|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref> The book is considered one of the best firsthand accounts of slave life.<ref name=adtt/>

In 2013, the actor Lou Gossett, Jr., dedicated his 2013 audiobook performance of ''Twelve Years a Slave'' to Eakin. In 2014, Frank William Eakin (born c. 1961) of The Woodlands, [[Texas]], said of his mother's life's work and the Oscar best picture: "It feels so good to have this validation, not just for Mom, but for the people of Louisiana."<ref name=oscarwinner/> Interviewed by the ''The Alexandria Town Talk'', Elizabeth Hood "Liz" Brazelton (born c. 1950) of Alexandria, a former student of Sue Eakin's, noted that without Eakin ''Twelve Years a Slave'' "would have been lost to the world ... I was hoping that [McQueen] would recognize Dr. Eakin because I felt that there had been a little lack of recognition. It was really gratifying."<ref name=oscarwinner/>

In 1978 at the age of sixty, Eakin received her [[Ph.D.]] in history from the University of Louisiana at [[Lafayette]], then known as the University of Southwestern Louisiana.<ref name=obit/> She continued writing and research projects after her retirement as a professor emeritus at LSUA. She published a new edition of ''Twelve Years a Slave'' in 2007, containing additional material regarding Solomon's years in New York, as well as in the local plantation community. Eakin was eighty-eight at the time of publication.

Eakin also worked as an archivist for the Louisiana State Archives and Records Service in Baton Rouge. With her sister, Manie L. Culbertson, Eakin published ''Louisiana: The Land and Its People,'' (1986), a textbook used in junior high classes of Louisiana history.<ref name=clamar/> Another of her works is ''Avoyelles Parish: Crossroads of Louisiana''.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.barnesandnoble.com/c/sue-eakin|title=Sue Eakin: Barnes & Noble|publisher=Barnesandnoble.com|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref> As an educator and a researcher, Eakin was responsible for conducting, or sending students into the field to conduct more than four hundred oral history interviews documenting various aspects of Louisiana history, culture and folklife. These recorded audio interivcews are now archived at the Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History at the [[University of Kentucky]] in Lexington,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.kentuckyoralhistory.org./collections/sue-eakin-louisiana-oral-history-collection|title=Sue Eakin Louisiana Oral History Collection|publisher=Kentuckyoralhistory.org|accessdate=October 26, 2009; material may be unavailable}}</ref> named for Louie Broady Nunn (1924-2004), the Kentucky [[Republican Party|Republican]] [[governor]] from 1967 to 1971.

==Legacy and honors==
Eakin received numerous research grants, awards, and honors for her work, including the following:
*1970, "Outstanding American History Professor" from the [[Daughters of the American Revolution]].<ref name=obit>{{cite web|url=http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/theadvocate/obituary.aspx?n=sue-lyles-eakins&pid=133129023|title=Obituary of Sue Lyles Eakin|publisher=''The Baton Rouge Advocate''|date=September 19, 2009|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref>
*1980, "Distinguished Artist of Avoyelles Parish."
*1985, "Citizen of the Year," Bunkie Rotary International.
*1987, nominated to "Distinguished Faculty of the LSU System."
*1995, selected as grand marshal of the Festival du Courtableau, or Washington Catfish Festival in Washington in St. Landry Parish.<ref>{{cite web|url= https://louisiana.kitchenandculture.com/event/washington-catfish-festival|title=Annual Washington Catfish Festival|publisher=Louisiana Kitchen & Culture|accessdate=October 26, 2019}}</ref>
*2001, named to the Hall of Fame of the LSU Manship School of Mass Communications in Baton Rouge.<ref name=obit />

Eakin died in 2009 at the age of ninety at her home in Bunkie.<ref name=obit/> Her children donated her extensive collection of documents, diaries, photographs, farm implements, her own notes, and drafts of several historical manuscripts in progress to the Archives of Louisiana State University Alexandria. She hoped that others would continue her research.

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Eakin, Sue}}
[[Category:Louisiana People]]
[[Category:Women]]
[[Category:Historians]]
[[Category:Professors]]
[[Category:Educators]]
[[Category:Journalists]]
[[Category:Newspapers]]
[[Category:American Authors]]
[[Category:United Methodists]]

House Oversight Committee

2019-10-27T02:36:09Z

JohnZ: subbed

The '''House Oversight Committee''', more formally known as the House Committee on Oversight and Reform, is a congressional committee in the [[United States House of Representatives]]. It should act as a watchdog against government waste and corruption, but instead advances a political agenda against the [[White House]] when occupied by an opposing party.

== External links ==
* [https://oversight.house.gov/ Official site]

[[Category:United States House of Representatives]]

Maria Butina

2019-10-26T02:16:52Z

JohnZ: correct link

'''Maria Butina''' or '''Marina Butina''' is a Russian gun right’s activist and [[libertarian]]. Butina headed an organization which aimed to secure a guaranteed constitutional right to keep and bear arms modeled on the U.S. [[Second Amendment]] to protect Russian citizens' after the 70 year en[[slave]]ment of the Russian people by [[far left]] [[progressive]]s of the [[Soviet Union]]. Butina became the target of anti-Second Amendment [[globalist]]s, advocates of the [[war on sovereignty]] and the corrupt [[Obama]] [[intelligence community]] during [[Deep State coup plot]].<ref>https://saraacarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/United-States-v.-Maria-Butina.pdf</ref>

U.S. intelligence had Butina on its radar by spring 2015, in part because she left an overt trail of open-source intelligence documenting her contacts with major conservative figures at the Conservative Political Action Conference, the [[National Rifle Association]] and the libertarian Freedom Fest, starting in 2013.

==Patrick Byrne==
On June 8, 2015 Butina approached [[Patrick Byrne]], CEO of Overstock.com, at the [[Las Vegas]] Freedom Fest. Byrne, who held a security clearance as a member of the [[Council on Foreign Relations|CFR]], reported the contact with a [[Russia]]n national to the [[FBI]]. By December 2015 Byrne was reporting more frequently on Butina.

In the early GOP primary season of 2016 Byrne was told by FBI handlers to focus Marina Butina’s attention to the campaign of Donald Trump and to diminish any attention toward Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz. Byrne warned FBI officials of a potential that his efforts, his reputation and those who trust him, may result in Butina gaining entry into the confidence of the campaign. The FBI agents told Byrne that was exactly the intent; people high up in the FBI wanted Ms. Butina to gain deep access into the [[2016 Trump campaign]]. Butina was used by the FBI to “dirty-up” political targets, opening them up for surveillance. Byrne became suspicious of a corrupt political motive, but didn’t say anything at the time.

By June and July 2016 FBI agents requested Byrne to focus on developing a closer romantic relationship with Maria Butina, and to use his influence to target her to closer proximity with the Trump family and Trump campaign. Byrne said the specific instructions were coming to the agents from [[Peter Strzok]] as he relayed the requests of those above him Byrne named [[James Comey]], [[Andrew McCabe]], [[Bill Priestap]], and [[John Carlin]] (DOJ-NSD).

On December 11, 2016 [[Glenn Simpson]] emailed [[Nellie Ohr]] of [[FusionGPS]] a link to an article in the [[left-wing]] ''ThinkProgress'' headlined, ''"Why has the NRA been cozying up to Russia?"'' The article focused on Butina and Russian Alexander Torshin. Nellie Ohr responded, "Thank you!" to which Simpson, the next day, answered, "Please ring if you can." Nellie Ohr forwarded the Simpson message to her husband Asst Attn Gen. [[Bruce Ohr]], saying, "I assume Glenn means you not me."

==Frame up==
Despite the government’s efforts to paint Butina as a Russian spy attempting to infiltrate [[Republican]] circles she was never investigated by the [[Mueller Team]]. Further, the FBI did nothing to stop Butina from meeting with high level Republican and conservative figures. The FBI didn’t warn those conservative figures she had made contact with, even though the FBI had Butina under [[surveillance]]. Unlike an associate of Russian operative Anna Chapman who mad contact with a major [[Democratic party]] donor close to [[Hillary Clinton]], the FBI acted swiftly to make arrest.<ref>https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/399970-the-real-maria-butina-scandal-fbi-could-have-prevented-it</ref>

In 2018, Butina pleaded guilty to a [[FARA]] Act violation. Prosecutors had to walk back accusations they made during the trial that she was a Russian spy using sex as a tool to gain influence and access. The guilty plea was not an admission that Butina was a Russian spy or involved in [[espionage]] but a failure to register as a Russian citizen working on behalf of her country.

Butina was sentenced to Florida’s FCI Tallahassee minimum security prison until Oct. 25, 2019. She was released from prison on Oct. 25, 2019 and boarded a plane heading to Russia.<ref>https://www.rt.com/news/471846-butina-leaves-prison-florida/</ref>

==See also==
*[[Jessie Liu]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Butina, Maria}}

[[category:Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax]][[Category:Second Amendment]]

User talk:Soltamg

2019-10-23T22:22:26Z

JohnZ: /* Editing wiki articles */ new section

== Editing wiki articles ==

Hi,

I reverted your edit to [[Sikh Youth UK]]. Please have a read through the [[Conservapedia:Editing article and talk pages|manual of style]], and [[How to put links and footnotes into your articles|this useful guide]] to adding internal and external links. Browsing some of the popular articles on the main page will also give you a better handle on editing articles here.

Cheers, [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 18:22, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Sikh Youth UK

2019-10-23T22:09:04Z

JohnZ: Undo revision 1585931 by Soltamg (talk)Not an improvement on previous version.

'''Sikh Youth UK''' is, as the name implies, a group of young Sikh-British activists who, much like journalist and activist [[Tommy Robinson]], have worked to shed light on the dire situation regarding [[Islam]]ic (especially Pakistani) [[grooming gangs]] in the United Kingdom, and to bring these pedophiles to justice. They specifically work to protect their own community (Sikh Britons) from these rape gangs, but also frequently act to protect non-Sikh girls from the gangs as well. Much like Tommy Robinson, they have been demonized and referred to as bigots by the global mainstream press, even though they are obviously not bigoted at all. There are videos available online which depict members of the group holding Pakistani Muslim pedophiles under citizens' arrest until able to transfer them to the proper authorities.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNL2PwUfSgI</ref><ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyTBO9PuxnU</ref> They have worked to spread awareness to the epidemic in Britain and throughout Europe of underage Sikh and native European girls being targeted for sexual abuse.

However, due to being demonized as bigots, the group has been investigated for supposedly questionable use of money,<ref>https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-48852599</ref><ref>https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/03/counter-terror-police-arrest-two-over-alleged-donation</ref> and their website has been deactivated, with an error message that reads, "The site sikhyouthuk.com has been disabled. Please contact support."[http://79.170.44.8/inactive.cgi?site=sikhyouthuk.com;key=e484d72d6e5589c5bb359cc32a20bac6] They are currently in the process of moving their website to a new online location, sikhyouthbirmingham.com. Currently, however, this site reads, "This page has been reserved for future use."[http://www.sikhyouthbirmingham.com/]

In addition, the YouTube video uploaded on their channel involving members of the group discussing the aforementioned demonization of their group as bigots, entitled, "Sikh Youth UK Meet Donald Trump?", which even goes so far as to denounce the associations made between them and individuals such as Tommy Robinson and Donald Trump, was placed on YouTube's Restricted Mode list.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZRENFl9m1k</ref>

==External Links==

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNT-4mdFS2KgnqsYQe75pTA --YouTube channel

==References==

[[Category:United Kingdom]]
[[Category:Organizations]]

William Faulkner

2019-10-23T21:30:26Z

JohnZ:

[[File:William Faulkner.jpg|thumb|Portrait of Faulkner by Carl Van Vechten]]
'''William Faulkner''' (September 25, 1897 - July 6, 1962) was a Nobel and [[Pulitzer Prize|Pulitzer prize]] winning American [[author]]. He was a lifelong resident of [[Mississippi]], and its only Nobel laureate, winning the [[Nobel Prize]] for Literature in 1949. He was reportedly recommended to the committee by a [[Sweden|Swedish]] journalist who translated American novelists.

Essentially self-taught and [[homeschooling|homeschooled]], Faulkner never graduated from high school.

Faulkner is most famous for writing ''The Sound and the Fury'' (1929), ''As I Lay Dying'' (1930),<ref>''As I Lay Dying'' contains 56,903 words and relatively high use of the passive voice. [http://prosecraft.io/library/william-faulkner/as-i-lay-dying/]</ref> and ''Absalom, Absalom!'' (1936).<ref>http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/faulkner/faulkner.html</ref><ref>http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1949/faulkner-bio.html</ref><ref>http://almaz.com/nobel/literature/1949a.html</ref><ref>http://www.booksfactory.com/writers/faulkner.htm</ref>

Faulkner wrote about the fall of Southern aristocracy. Difficult to follow, his works are creative and explore psychological aspects of his characters. [[Liberal]]s like Faulkner for his mockery of southern whites, which Faulkner does in the form of stream-of-consciousness in ''As I Lay Dying''.

''Absalom, Absalom!'' is widely considered the greatest southern novel ever written. In Faulkner's characteristically bizarre style, this novel contains the longest sentence in [[America]]n literature: 1,228 words.<ref>http://www.openculture.com/2019/03/when-william-faulkner-set-the-world-record-for-writing-the-longest-sentence-in-literature.html</ref> (Other very long sentences are in Jonathan Coe’s ''The Rotter’s Club'' (a 13,955 word sentence) and James Joyce's ''Ulysses'' (a 4,391 word sentence).<ref>https://thejohnfox.com/long-sentences/</ref>

Faulkner eventually married his childhood sweetheart in 1929, after she divorced the man she had married a decade earlier, under pressure from her family.<ref>https://www.notablebiographies.com/Du-Fi/Faulkner-William.html</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Faulkner, William}}
[[Category:Novelists]]
[[Category:Nobel Laureates in Literature]]
[[Category:Writing]]