Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Separation of church and state

2008-04-24T14:10:15Z

Iced327:

This article is almost completely opinion. References to the Declaration of Independence should be removed, as it is not a founding document of the US, but a document separating the original colonies from Britain.

The article should be re-written by someone actually knowledgeable in constitutional law. --[[User:Brewer13210|Todd]] 12:45 16 March 2007 ETD

The first ammendment seems to confirm the separation of State and Church - KT

The phrase 'liberal interpreation' needs to be removed, as it has no sources and is not fact.

==Wrong reference==
The letter suppossedly from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Associasion is the other way around here. It is not from Jefferson, but it was used here as a reference as though it was. This article does not need a re-write by someone in Constitutional law, but by someone with the common sense required to write this properly. The complete letter from Jefferson I've added to the article. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:00, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

== Rollback ==

The [[liberal]] edits removed factual information and thus were rolled back.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:20, 6 August 2007 (EDT)

== Amercian-Christianity-denying Article 11 of the ratified Treaty of Tripoli was almost certainly spurious. ==

New to and inept with techniques and protocols of this site I ask others to take up the Subject matter using leads provided below.

Further evidence and information beyond Reference 5 is available from Yale University's Avalon Project covering the Barbary Treaties . See (below) various links to authenticating scholarly work and to the source for the quote below. That quote is from Arabic scholar Snouck Hurgronje's annotated translation of the Arabic (and presumed) copy of the original treaty. The ratified (Christianity denying) version, still is the official one often quoted from and held by the U.S. State Department; it is the Barlow translation from the Arabic, the original treaty language; it unaccountably includes a widely divergent interpolation as Article 11.

I add emphasis and quote from the annotated translation by Hurgronje:

"'''The eleventh article of the Barlow translation has no equivalent whatever in the Arabic. The Arabic text opposite that article is a letter''' from Hassan Pasha of Algiers to Yussuf Pasha of Tripoli. The letter gives notice of the treaty of peace concluded with the Americans and recommends its observation. '''Three fourths of the letter consists of an introduction, drawn up by a stupid secretary who just knew a certain number of bombastic words and expressions occurring in solemn documents, but entirely failed to catch their real meaning. Here the only thing to be done by a translator is to try to give the reader an impression of the nonsensical original:'''

Praise be to God, who inspires the minds of rulers with causes of well-being and righteousness! The present matter may be in the interest of the land and the servants [of God], in order that things may be put in their place. This whole affair...."

SEE THIS LINK http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/barmenu.htm FOR THE FOLLOWING MENU AT THE AVALON PROJECT FOR TREATIES WITH THE BARBARY POWERS. These menu items are quite comprehensive if not exhaustive on the topic.

Treaty with Tripoli November 4, 1796 and at Algiers January 3, 1797

Text of the Treaty
The Receipt
The Note
The Approval of Humphreys
The Annotated Translation of 1930
Translation of the Treaty
Translation of the Receipt
Translation of the Note
Account of the Seals
Hunter Miller's Notes
The Original Treaty
The Cathcart Copy
The Italian Translation
The United States Ratification and Proclamation
Note Regarding the Arabic Text
Note Regarding the Barlow Translation

SELECT FROM THE ABOVE MENU "TRANSLATION OF THE TREATY" AND FIND A LINK TO GO HERE FOR THE ANNOTATED TRANSLATION BY HURGRONJE http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796e.htm#e1

Note that material under various of the menu options materially substantiate the treaty version Hurgronje translated.

An interesting discussion of the Treaty of Tripoli is here: http://www.tektonics.org/qt/tripoli.html .

Of course, skeptics rightfully ask how it is possible that the treaty was ratified by the Senate and accepted by the country without objection. The history of the period indicates Barbary Pirates from Barbary States preyed upon, controlled and required tribute for shipping in the Mediterranean Sea. Vital pre- and post-Revolutionary War American Mediterranean shipping had been attacked by the Moslems, sailors had been killed and enslaved, and amounts demanded for tribute were excesssive. Accordingly, in discussing this elsewhere after reading the item above at Tektonics.org I wrote:

The Tektonics piece provides some support for three plausible explanations [for Americans' acquiescence in Article 11]. Here are three [among] plausible reasons or contributing factors, the first being the most compelling:

1. In a word, duress: inability to do otherwise considering past and prospective casualties in vital shipping;
2. It was likely common knowledge that the hegemonic Moslem pirates viewed being Christian or sailing under a "Christian flag" as a casus belli. This ties to the second part of the claim in Article 11 about relations with Mohametans.
3. The U.S. Government was technically Christian only in the sense that Christianity energized the majority of the founders, [it was] the spirit of the founding documents, and [of] the citizens. (Individual states, I believe, still had or several recently had had state churches.)

My apologies for this long commentary. But I believe this is an important item that needs to be threshed out as to its significance.

Separation of church and state

2008-04-22T21:56:41Z

Iced327: Removing phrases that could not be justified with citation.

'''Separation of church and state''' is an interpretation of the [[Establishment Clause]] of the [[United States Constitution]]. The section in question reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....".<ref>[http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti 1st Amendment of the US Constitution]</ref> This phrase has been interpreted by some judges to exclude religion from [[Government]] by declaring that [[Church]] and state must be kept separate.<ref>''See, e.g.'' [[Lemon v. Kurtzman]].</ref>

== Keeping the State from the Church's Influence ==
[[Thomas Jefferson]], the least religious of the [[Founding Fathers]] and one of the few who played no role in the drafting of the [[U.S. Constitution]] or the [[First Amendment]], first coined the phrase as president in 1802 - a decade after the [[First Amendment]] was ratified.<ref>[http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html Religion and the Federal Government], ''LOC.gov''</ref>. Jefferson used the phrase to appease the Danbury Baptist Association rather than recite an objective interpretation of the law. At the end of his letter, in reflection of how Jefferson himself did not interpret his own phrase to exclude religion from government, he expressed prayers for the letter's recipients:<ref>[http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/dba_jefferson.html Letter from Thomas Jefferson to the DBA]</ref>

:''To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.''

:''Gentlemen''

:''The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.''

:''Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.''

:''I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.''

:''Th Jefferson''
:''Jan. 1. 1802'' <ref>http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html</ref>

The [[Treaty of Tripoli]], drafted during Washington's presidency and ratified by John Adams, states that "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."<ref>[http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.] Ratified in 1796 and again in 1797.</ref> Many proponents of a Christian America point out that the treaty was superseded by the [[Treaty of Peace and Amity]] in 1805 (although the superseding of the treaty does not change John Adams' secular view of the United States).

== Separating the Church from the State's Influence ==
Like many political doctrines, the separation of church & state is a double-edged sword. If religion cannot influence government, nor can government influence religion. Accordingly, churches and religious organizations are kept from government intrusion with the highest deference to ecclesiastical matters. For example, Title VII contains a built-in exception for religious organizations.<ref>42 U.S.C. 2000(e)-(1).</ref> The provision has been construed to allow churches to handle their ministerial matters without government intrusion in any way.<ref>McClure v. Salvation Army.</ref> In this sense, separation of church & state is ''good'' for the church, as it ensures religious autonomy.
== References ==
<references/>
[[category:politics]]

Separation of church and state

2008-04-21T14:38:50Z

Iced327:

'''Separation of church and state''' is a [[liberal]] interpretation (citation needed) of the [[Establishment Clause]] of the [[United States Constitution]], an interpretation particularly favored by [[atheists]] (citation needed). The section in question reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....".<ref>[http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti 1st Amendment of the US Constitution]</ref> This phrase has been interpreted by some judges to exclude religion from [[Government]] by declaring that [[Church]] and state must be kept separate.<ref>''See, e.g.'' [[Lemon v. Kurtzman]].</ref> [[Conservatives]] have long criticized this interpretation as being without justification in the text or meaning of the [[First Amendment]] (citation needed).

== Keeping the State from the Church's Influence ==
[[Thomas Jefferson]], the least religious of the [[Founding Fathers]] and one of the few who played no role in the drafting of the [[U.S. Constitution]] or the [[First Amendment]], first coined the phrase as president in 1802 - a decade after the [[First Amendment]] was ratified.<ref>[http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html Religion and the Federal Government], ''LOC.gov''</ref>. Jefferson used the phrase to appease the Danbury Baptist Association rather than recite an objective interpretation of the law. At the end of his letter, in reflection of how Jefferson himself did not interpret his own phrase to exclude religion from government, he expressed prayers for the letter's recipients:<ref>[http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/dba_jefferson.html Letter from Thomas Jefferson to the DBA]</ref>

:''To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.''

:''Gentlemen''

:''The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.''

:''Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.''

:''I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.''

:''Th Jefferson''
:''Jan. 1. 1802'' <ref>http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html</ref>

The [[Treaty of Tripoli]], drafted during Washington's presidency and ratified by John Adams, states that "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."<ref>[http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.] Ratified in 1796 and again in 1797.</ref> Many proponents of a Christian America point out that the treaty was superseded by the [[Treaty of Peace and Amity]] in 1805 (although the superseding of the treaty does not change John Adams' secular view of the United States).

== Separating the Church from the State's Influence ==
Like many political doctrines, the separation of church & state is a double-edged sword. If religion cannot influence government, nor can government influence religion. Accordingly, churches and religious organizations are kept from government intrusion with the highest deference to ecclesiastical matters. For example, Title VII contains a built-in exception for religious organizations.<ref>42 U.S.C. 2000(e)-(1).</ref> The provision has been construed to allow churches to handle their ministerial matters without government intrusion in any way.<ref>McClure v. Salvation Army.</ref> In this sense, separation of church & state is ''good'' for the church, as it ensures religious autonomy.
== References ==
<references/>
[[category:politics]]

Separation of church and state

2008-04-21T14:38:27Z

Iced327:

'''Separation of church and state''' is a [[liberal]] interpretation (citation needed) of the [[Establishment Clause]] of the [[United States Constitution]], an interpretation particularly favored by [[atheists]] (citation needed). The section in question reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....".<ref>[http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti 1st Amendment of the US Constitution]</ref> This phrase has been interpreted by some judges to exclude religion from [[Government]] by declaring that [[Church]] and state must be kept separate.<ref>''See, e.g.'' [[Lemon v. Kurtzman]].</ref> [[Conservatives]] have long criticized this interpretation as being without justification in the text or meaning of the [[First Amendment]].

== Keeping the State from the Church's Influence ==
[[Thomas Jefferson]], the least religious of the [[Founding Fathers]] and one of the few who played no role in the drafting of the [[U.S. Constitution]] or the [[First Amendment]], first coined the phrase as president in 1802 - a decade after the [[First Amendment]] was ratified.<ref>[http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html Religion and the Federal Government], ''LOC.gov''</ref>. Jefferson used the phrase to appease the Danbury Baptist Association rather than recite an objective interpretation of the law. At the end of his letter, in reflection of how Jefferson himself did not interpret his own phrase to exclude religion from government, he expressed prayers for the letter's recipients:<ref>[http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/dba_jefferson.html Letter from Thomas Jefferson to the DBA]</ref>

:''To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.''

:''Gentlemen''

:''The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.''

:''Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.''

:''I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.''

:''Th Jefferson''
:''Jan. 1. 1802'' <ref>http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html</ref>

The [[Treaty of Tripoli]], drafted during Washington's presidency and ratified by John Adams, states that "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."<ref>[http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.] Ratified in 1796 and again in 1797.</ref> Many proponents of a Christian America point out that the treaty was superseded by the [[Treaty of Peace and Amity]] in 1805 (although the superseding of the treaty does not change John Adams' secular view of the United States).

== Separating the Church from the State's Influence ==
Like many political doctrines, the separation of church & state is a double-edged sword. If religion cannot influence government, nor can government influence religion. Accordingly, churches and religious organizations are kept from government intrusion with the highest deference to ecclesiastical matters. For example, Title VII contains a built-in exception for religious organizations.<ref>42 U.S.C. 2000(e)-(1).</ref> The provision has been construed to allow churches to handle their ministerial matters without government intrusion in any way.<ref>McClure v. Salvation Army.</ref> In this sense, separation of church & state is ''good'' for the church, as it ensures religious autonomy.
== References ==
<references/>
[[category:politics]]

Separation of church and state

2008-04-21T14:36:51Z

Iced327:

'''Separation of church and state''' is a [[liberal]] interpretation of the [[Establishment Clause]] of the [[United States Constitution]], an interpretation particularly favored by [[atheists]] (citation needed). The section in question reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....".<ref>[http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti 1st Amendment of the US Constitution]</ref> This phrase has been interpreted by some judges to exclude religion from [[Government]] by declaring that [[Church]] and state must be kept separate.<ref>''See, e.g.'' [[Lemon v. Kurtzman]].</ref> [[Conservatives]] have long criticized this interpretation as being without justification in the text or meaning of the [[First Amendment]].

== Keeping the State from the Church's Influence ==
[[Thomas Jefferson]], the least religious of the [[Founding Fathers]] and one of the few who played no role in the drafting of the [[U.S. Constitution]] or the [[First Amendment]], first coined the phrase as president in 1802 - a decade after the [[First Amendment]] was ratified.<ref>[http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html Religion and the Federal Government], ''LOC.gov''</ref>. Jefferson used the phrase to appease the Danbury Baptist Association rather than recite an objective interpretation of the law. At the end of his letter, in reflection of how Jefferson himself did not interpret his own phrase to exclude religion from government, he expressed prayers for the letter's recipients:<ref>[http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/dba_jefferson.html Letter from Thomas Jefferson to the DBA]</ref>

:''To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.''

:''Gentlemen''

:''The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.''

:''Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.''

:''I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.''

:''Th Jefferson''
:''Jan. 1. 1802'' <ref>http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html</ref>

The [[Treaty of Tripoli]], drafted during Washington's presidency and ratified by John Adams, states that "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."<ref>[http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.] Ratified in 1796 and again in 1797.</ref> Many proponents of a Christian America point out that the treaty was superseded by the [[Treaty of Peace and Amity]] in 1805 (although the superseding of the treaty does not change John Adams' secular view of the United States).

== Separating the Church from the State's Influence ==
Like many political doctrines, the separation of church & state is a double-edged sword. If religion cannot influence government, nor can government influence religion. Accordingly, churches and religious organizations are kept from government intrusion with the highest deference to ecclesiastical matters. For example, Title VII contains a built-in exception for religious organizations.<ref>42 U.S.C. 2000(e)-(1).</ref> The provision has been construed to allow churches to handle their ministerial matters without government intrusion in any way.<ref>McClure v. Salvation Army.</ref> In this sense, separation of church & state is ''good'' for the church, as it ensures religious autonomy.
== References ==
<references/>
[[category:politics]]