Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Islam

2009-02-09T01:01:38Z

HSpalding: /* Islam and Christianity */ Accuracy

'''Islam''' is a [[monotheism|monotheistic]] [[Abrahamic religion]] based on the teachings of [[Muhammad]], a seventh century [[Arab]] religious and [[politics|political]] figure. The word "Islam" means "submission [to Allah]" in [[Arabic language|Arabic]].

A follower of Islam is called a Muslim or Moslem, a term which means "one who submits (to God)". The older term [[Mohammedan]] means "follower of Muhammad", and has been used for centuries. Muslims do not use it today to avoid confusing worship of [[Muhammad]] with worship of [[Allah]]<ref>Schimmel, Annemarie. ''Islam: An Introduction''. State University of New York Press, 1992.</ref>. Muslims follow the teaching of Muhammad, whom they believe to be [[God]]'s last and greatest [[prophet]]. The faith teaches that the [[Archangel]] [[Gabriel]] appeared to him.

Muslims believe that God ("Allah", '''الله''' in [[Arabic]]) revealed the [[Qur'an]] (or Koran) to Muhammad and, despite his illiteracy, caused him to transcribe it <ref>Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not.(Surah 96:1-5)</ref>. The [[Qur'an]] is considered to be the pure and [[holy]] word of God. Like [[Christianity]] and [[Judaism]], Islam originated in the [[Middle East]]. Islam claims to trace its roots back to [[Abraham]]. Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was the founder of Islam, rather that he restored the original faith of Abraham and the prophets, which had been corrupted and/or misinterpreted over time. Based upon this belief, [[the Bible]], [[Old Testament|Old]] and [[New Testament]], is believed to have become corrupted as well.

[[Image:Mecca.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[Mecca]], one of the holy cities of Islam.]]
Islam is the second largest religion in the world, with over 1.4 billion followers, the number of Muslims is rapidly growing, mainly due to high birth rates, in both Muslim-majority and other countries . Conversions to Christianity (from ''any'' faith or lack thereof) outnumber those to Islam, but cannot keep up with the birthrate discrepancy.<ref>[http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian-encyclopedia.htm World Christian Encyclopedia]</ref>
<ref>[http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php Translation of AL-Jazeerah interview between Maher Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani]</ref>

Many believe that Islam is, with [[Atheism]], currently the greatest threat to [[Christianity]] and [[Christian values]], <ref>[http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1134840164.htm Is Islam a Threat to Christianity?]</ref><ref>[http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/5/8/183305.shtml Islam's Threat to the West]</ref><ref>[http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/stock/050413 Why Islam Hates Christianity]</ref> and the overwhelming majority of modern [[terrorist|terrorists]] are muslims.

==Historical Background==
According to Islamic belief, in 610 A.D., [[Muhammad]], a 40-year-old merchant of the Quraysh tribe in [[Mecca]], in the Arabian desert (now eastern [[Saudi Arabia]]), was commanded by the angel [[Gabriel]] to "recite" the message of [[Allah]] (Arabic for God). Gabriel said mankind had lost sight of Allah's previous messages to earlier prophets, [[Adam]], [[Noah]], [[Abraham]], [[Moses]], [[Solomon]], and [[Jesus]], among others, and that Muhammad was to spread Allah's message to all people so that mankind would know how to live, how to show respect for Allah, and how to prepare for the judgement day. The message to Muhammad was to be God's last; Muhammad was the "seal of the prophets." Muhammad won some converts to Islam in his local area, but his [[monotheist]] preaching threatened to undermine the profitable [[polytheist]] pilgrim traffic supporting many Meccan merchants. In 622 A.D., the merchants drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca to the city of Yathrib (later renamed [[Medina]], or city - as in the city of the prophet). This flight (hijra) from Mecca to Medina marks the beginning of the Muslim lunar calendar, and is celebrated each year in the hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad's forces starting attacking the trade caravans going in and out of Mecca, cutting off its economic lifeline. After a series of battles between the Meccans and Muhammad's forces, Mecca finally accepted Muhammad's ultimatum to succumb and convert to Islam. The city welcomed the prophet back in 630. Muhammad died in 632. It is believed that Muhammed is the last Prophet. Tribal elders elected [[Abu Bakr]] to be Muhammad's successor, or [[Caliph]] (Khalifa). Abu Bakr united the tribes of the Arabian peninsula during his two years as head of the new faith. Upon his death, the elders elected [[Umar ibn al-Khattab]] the next Caliph. During Umar's ten year reign, Islam invaded and spread through the sword into [[Egypt]], [[Syria]], [[Palestine]], [[Iraq]], and parts of [[Iran]]. Umar was assassinated by a Persian (modern day Iran) in 644, and was succeeded by [[Uthman ibn Affan]], who continued the invasions to spread Islam into [[North Africa]], [[Cyprus]], the rest of Iran, [[Afghanistan]], and parts of [[India]] and [[Pakistan]]. Over the next two centuries, Islamic armies continued to expanded Islam's empire into sub-Saharan Africa, [[Spain]], Southeast and Central Asia, and [[Turkey]].

==Divisions Within Islam==
Uthman was assassinated in 656 A.D. by soldiers who then installed Ali ibn Abu Talib, Muhammad's son-in-law, as [[Caliph]]. Ali's followers believed Muhammad had chosen Ali to be Muhammad's heir, and had disagreed with the selections of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman as Caliphs. Ali's claim to the position was challenged by Muawiyah, a kinsman of the murdered Uthman. Five years later, Ali was assassinated by Kharjites, religious dissidents who broke away from the main body of Muslims because they rejected Ali's accepting arbitration to resolve his leadership dispute with Muawiyah. Ali's supporters, or the Shiah al-Ali (or Shiat Ali, partisans of Ali) believed that Ali was the true Caliph and was, in part, divinely inspired. Ali's sons, Hassan and Husayn followed as [[Shia]] Caliphs, Hassan dying in 669 or 670 A.D., possibly by poisoning, and Husayn slain by soldiers of his rival, the [[Sunni]] Caliph Yazid, in 680 A.D.

The Shia Muslim community has divided further as followers coalesced around several of Ali's descendants or successors, called [[Imam]]s. The "twelvers," predominant in Iran, believe the twelfth Imam is in hiding and will reveal himself just before judgement day. Ismailis rejected the seventh Imam and practice a spirituality that seeks hidden meaning in scripture. Ismailis ruled much of [[North Africa]] as the [[Fatimid Dynasty]] of [[Egypt]] in the tenth through the twelfth centuries, and today are found primarily in [[Pakistan]], [[Afghanistan]], and [[India]]. The Sunni majority reject the premise that men can be divine, including Muhammad, Ali, or Jesus, and did not accept any of the Imams who followed Ali. Sunnis remain more committed to traditions and less inclined to accept Shia mysticism. Today, about 15% of the world's Muslims are Shia and 85% are orthodox Sunni.

There are other factions within Islam. Sufis, a name apparently taken from the wool garments they wear, developed around mystical practices and trance-induced revelations. Sufis are found today in [[Turkey]], [[Syria]], and parts of [[Africa]]. Other movements have taken reform tracks, such as the Unitarians of [[Saudi Arabia]], also called [[Wahhabi]]s after their 18th century reformist founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The conservative Wahhabis are found today in Saudi Arabia and [[Qatar]]. Today the Wahhabi line has a tendency to produce extremists, such as [[Osama Bin Laden]]. Some critics would argue that the [[Taliban]] of Afghanistan took conservative reform to an extreme. Other sects or break-away groups include, among others, the Alawis found in Syria and Turkey, the [[Druze]] in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, the Ibadhis (Kharjites) in Oman and Africa, the Ahmadiya of Pakistan, and the Zaydis of Yemen.

==Religious Guidance==
During his lifetime, Muhammad's companions learned and later transcribed the verses (surrahs) of the Quran as Muhammad spoke them. In Islam, the teachings of Mohammed were believed to be direct divine revelation from God. Some utterances that Mohammed was unsure about, dubbed the Satanic verses, would later be incorporated in a novel in modern times by [[Salmon Rushdie]] who would then be subject to a death degree from the leader of Iran for his writing.

The third Caliph, Uthman, collected and codified the various versions of the surrahs into one written [[Quran]] that became the standard Arabic text used by the world's Muslims today. The Quran is longer than the Bible and written in general order of longest chapters to shortest rather than in any order of when they were spoken, sometimes making the work appear to be confusing. In all there are 114 chapters. Most of the later recorded sayings of Mohammed, which were also more warlike, actually appear earlier in the text. Present-day Muslims look first to the Quran as a guide to life, then to the [[Sunnah]], or the way of the Prophet (his life as an example for others) as recorded by his early companions, and then to the [[Hadith]], a collection of the Prophet's sayings, comments, advice, and descriptions.

Frequently, Muslims disagreed over how to interpret certain passages in the Quran, the Sunnah, or the Hadith in their search for the ideal life and perfect path to heaven. From these interpretations Sunni Muslims developed four schools of law, or interpretations of law, named after their founders or early leaders: the Hanbali, considered the most strict school and predominant today in Saudi Arabia; Shafi, the school of widest acceptance, found in Egypt, parts of Palestine-Syria, south Arabia, and the Far East; Maliki, prevalent in North Africa, Sudan, and Nigeria; and Hanafi, considered the most moderate school, predominant in Ottoman Turkey and today found primarily on the Levant and Indian subcontinent. Frequently, Muslim countries have two separate legal systems, one for civil, criminal, or commercial law, and a second, and separate, system for religious law. Religious courts and their judges (qadis) might handle issues dealing with marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, religious education, charitable or religious property (Waqf), or family matters. Among Middle Eastern countries, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, the United Arab Amirates, and Yemen have Shariah courts serving alongside their secular courts or have adopted [[Sharia]]h (Islamic law) as the basis of their legal systems.

====Clergy====
Sunni Islam does not have a priesthood or clerical hierarchy to conduct religious services or interpret scripture, but it does have prayer leaders, called Imams, and religious scholars, called Ulama, who often are educated men familiar with the Quran and able to offer commentaries on Quranic verses. Sunni Muslims also respect the teachings and interpretations of scholars, judges, and academics who may interpret laws, write treatises on Sharia (religious law) or Hadith, and issue Fatwas, religious declarations intended to enlighten or guide Muslims.

Shia Islam has a hierarchy that resembles a priesthood. Mullahs are prayer leaders, but usually do not interpret religious law. Mujtahids are religious scholars who may interpret law or passages from the Quran or Hadith. The lower order of Mujtahids are called Hojjatolislam. Ayat Allah (literally sign of God, also Ayatollah) is a higher order of Mujtahid who may issue Fatwas, or religious edicts, in addition to leading Islamic schools, interpreting religious law and the Quran, and offering sermons or discourses on proper Islamic behavior.

===Five Pillars of Islam===
*'''Shahadah (Profession of Faith)''' -The Shahadah is the Muslim profession of faith. 'ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh, a loose English translation reads "''There is none worthy of worship except God, and [[Muhammad]] is the messenger of God''" This testament can be seen as the foundation of all of the other tenets of Islam.

*'''[[Salat]] (Ritual Prayer)''' -All Muslims are required to Pray to God five times each day while facing [[Mecca]].

*'''Zakat (Charity)''' Able Muslims must donate to the poor based on the wealth one has accumulated. In current usage it is interpreted as 2.5% of the value of most valuables and savings held for a full [[lunar year]].

*'''Sawm (Fasting)''' All able-bodied Muslims (children, the elderly, and the ill are exempt) must fast during daylight hours during the daylight hours of the entire month of [[Ramadan]]. According to Muslims, this purifies the body and soul. Some Muslim sects allow military, police and emergency services personnel to receive an exemption from fasting from an imam, on the grounds that their work supports the community or national good.

*'''Hajj (Pilgrimage)''' All able-bodied Muslims must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lives.

==Other Aspects of Islam==
[[Image:Quran.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Pages from the Qur'an, the holy book of the Islamic religion.]]
====Jihad====
Jihad is the "effort" or "struggle" each Muslim faces in the everyday trials of life, such as the effort to get better grades in school, or the striving to achieve better results from a job, or the struggle to avoid sinful temptations. Jihad also can be applied to warfare; participating in jihad in Allah's cause was the third most important good deed listed in the Hadith, after prayer and honoring one's parents. Jihad often was a rallying cry for the military spread of Islam in the seventh through tenth centuries against non-Muslims.

====Osama bin Laden and Fundamentalists====
[[Osama bin Laden]], a follower of a particular brand of Islam popular in Saudi Arabia, has stated that Islam is at war with the United States and its allies. Some observers maintain that the number of Muslims who believe as bin Laden does is growing, and others go further to suggest that all "fundamentalist" Muslims are enemies of the West. But other observers differentiate between conservative "fundamentalists" and the "extremists" who follow bin Laden or other terrorists. These observers suggest that the fundamentalists disagree with bin Laden as much as do Westerners. It is hard to know the truth. Many westerners are still haunted by the images of cheering crowds dancing in the streets when the 9/11 attacks were announced and were disappointed at the lack of prominent condemnation of the attack from Islamic circles worldwide.

====People of the Book====
Christians and Jews are called "people of the Book" in the Koran and are considered earlier forerunners to Islam and viewed as brothers as long as they pay an extra tax when under Islamic rule. Islam, tracing its roots back to Abraham through his son Ishmael instead of Isaac as the Jews did, believes that they are the descendants of God's promise. Islam believes that both the Old and New Testament were corrupted and corrected by the Koran, but there is still an earlier link between the three religions. The view of Jews and Christians varied within different parts of the Koran and Islamic history. Much of current Islamic culture, even in places that were once very tolerant such as Egypt, has seen an upsurge in persecution and violence against Christians and Jews.

====Women in Islam====
For the most part, the Quran treats men and [[woman|women]] equally, applies the same injunctions and prohibitions to men and women, and grants many of the same privileges and benefits. But women are treated separately in certain instances. For example, women are required to "... draw their outer garments around them ... that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed (by men)." (Quran 33:59) Covering the head and body in public (hijab) is viewed by many Muslim women as a protection of their modesty, a way to discourage men's covetous eyes. The principle of hijab is applied in different ways: a small scarf around the head and regular "street clothes" may be voluntary and acceptable in Cairo or Damascus but a full length opaque [[Burqa]] was enforced in Taliban Afghanistan. The treatment of women may depend upon rural or urban settings, educational level, society norms, tradition, or other factors. As of 2008, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are the only two Middle Eastern countries where the government requires women to wear some form of modest garb.

Islamic dress is a regular grounds for conflict in multicultural education.

Treatment of women varies widely by country. In the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia women are forbidden from driving a car, traveling in public without their husband or a male family member as an escort, leaving their home without wearing Islamic dress, working or voting. Though not formally forbidden from owning property, they have no way of obtaining this as work is forbidden and only males are permitted to inherit - should a man die, his brothers, sons and father will all inherit before his wife. These restrictions are part of the criminal law of the country, and enforced by the police and a special Islamic office. Pakistan has similar restrictions, but to a lesser extent. In contrast, Turkey has a majority Muslim population yet still grants women rights near-equal to those of men including property ownership, employment, and education to university level.

Muslim apologists suggest the extremely repressive policies of countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are cultural rather than religious, and point to the more moderate Islam practiced in Turkey as a demonstration that Islam and womens' rights are compatible, and point to past Christian-dominated cultures such as medieval Europe as examples that other religions can be distorted to justify oppression.

Muslim women's status is controversial. Some critics claim that Muslim men oppress Muslim women by compelling them to remain hidden behind the veil, sequestered in the home, and ignorant of the world by denying them access to education and worldly opportunities. Defenders of some practices suggest that many of them, such as the veil, are cultural traditions that pre-date Islam and are intended to protect, not constrict, women, or that many Muslim women adopt the life style of the veil voluntarily. There are Muslim women who agree and disagree with the critics.

====Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem====
Muhammad's home city of Mecca was the site of his earliest preaching and conversions, and is the location of the Kaaba, traditionally held to be the foundation stone of the first mosque built by Adam and later restored by Abraham, and now the focus of the annual pilgrimage (hajj). Some historians suggest that the Kaaba, a black stone probably meteoric in origin, was venerated by pre-Islamic polytheistic religions.

At first, Jerusalem was Islam's holy city and the focus of prayers, but Mecca became the center of Islam after Muhammad's return in 630. Medina, because of its early association with Muhammad and as the site of Muhammad's tomb, is second in importance to Mecca. Jerusalem is revered by Muslims as the site of Solomon's temple, Abraham's near sacrifice of his son Ishmael, and the scene of Muhammad's miraculous midnight journey, the latter two now enshrined in the Dome of the Rock mosque. According to the Quran (Surrah 17:1, Isra) and Hadith, Muhammad and Gabriel were taken on winged mules from Mecca to Jerusalem, where they ascended through the seven heavens to the presence of Allah. During the visit, Muhammad learned, among other points, that Muslims were to pray five times each day and to honor Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets.

====Restrictions====
Observant Muslims are not supposed to eat pork and in general do not have dogs as pets; both swine and canines are considered unclean. Muslims are proscribed from drinking alcoholic beverages. Observant Muslims do not collect interest.

====Non-Muslim Practices====
Some practices have been associated with Islam because they occur in Islamic countries, but actually are not a part of Islam. For example, female circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, but is mentioned in Hadith as an "honorable" but not obligatory condition. It is a pre-Islamic tradition in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab world, notably in Eritrea, Yemen, and Egypt. Another example of a practice that has been associated incorrectly with Islam is honor killing, in which a brother, father, or uncle "restores" or "defends" a family's honor by killing the sister, daughter, or niece that dishonored the family through unmarried pregnancy or promiscuous behavior. The "honor killing" is more ancient and possibly tribalistic pagan in origin.

==Islam and Christianity==
While Muslims do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God or in the resurrection, they consider him and his mother to be of God's most important prophets (Marian and Isa) otherwise known as Mary and Jesus. However, the Qur'an warns against worshiping Jesus, Muhammad, and other humans for fear of [[idolatry]].<ref>[http://www.ccg.org/_domain/ccg.org/Islam/Islam.htm Christian Churches of God Articles on Islam], March 10, 2007</ref>

The Qur'an states that Christians will be punished, though the nature of the punishment is not specified:

"Surely, disbelievers are those who said:
'Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).' But there is no god but One, Allah.
And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The Messiah , son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (i.e. she believed in the words of God and His Books ).
They both used to eat food (as any other human eat).
Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)."

Qur'an 5:73-75

However, Islam does recognize Christians and Jews as "people of the book" since both refer to one God only, and recognize Abraham (Ibrahim in [[Arabic]]) as a founding prophet.

Some sects of Islam and Christianity both accept the theory of [[intelligent design]] as correct, and do not recognize [[evolution]]ist views. Most Muslims and Christians accept the reality of Darwinian evolution.

==Islam and Paganism==

Although Muslims profess belief in a single [[God]], some believe Islam has its roots in an earlier polytheistic system.<ref>[http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/]</ref> By this thinking God is linked to an earlier moon deity, although it should be brought up that there is no mention of this in the Qur'an, where Allah is cited as the God of [[Abraham]].<ref>The Qur'an, Sura 37 [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Allamah-Nooruddin/dp/0963206702]</ref><ref>Abramahov, "Islamic Theology". Edinburgh University Press: Edinburgh, 1988. [http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Theology-Binyamin-Abrahamov/dp/0748611029/sr=8-4/qid=1172042917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/105-1837174-2630046?ie=UTF8&s=books]</ref>

==Sharia==
[[Image:StarCresent.png|thumb|right|220px|The Star and Crescent is a symbol of Islam. It is featured in the national flag of [[Algeria]], [[Azerbaijan]], [[Malaysia]], [[Tunisia]], [[Mauritania]], [[Pakistan]], and [[Turkey]].]]
[[Sharia]] is the body of Islamic law. The term means "way" or "path"; it is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It is not actually part of the canonical Qur'an; that is to say, it is not believed to be the direct word of God by Muslims, but rather the interpretation of it.

Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, marriage, divorce, and social issues. Some Islamic scholars accept Sharia as the body of precedent and legal theory established before the 19th century, while other scholars view Sharia as a changing body, and include Islamic legal theory from the contemporary period.{{fact}}

Sharia law is used in many modern Islamic theocracies and prescribes very harsh treatments for acts, that, in the western world, are relatively minor. For example, under sharia law, converting from Islam is punishable by death.<ref>[http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html]</ref>

==Ex-Muslims==
[[Michelle Malkin]] highlights a group of Ex-Muslims hoping to change the terms of debate about Islam in Europe. Maryam Namazie, the head of the British group said "Too many things in the media and government policies have been geared to pandering to the political Islamic movements and Islamic organizations." <ref> [http://michellemalkin.com/2007/06/20/ex-muslims-stand-up-in-britain/ Ex-Muslims stand up in Britain]</ref>

----
''Some of the text for this article was taken from "Islam: A Primer", Congressional Research Service Report for Congress (2003), a work in the public domain'' [http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islam.htm#back]

==Prominent Muslims==
*[[Muhammad]]
*[[Muhammad Ali]]
*[[Ahmed Deedat]]
*[[Yusef Islam]]
*[[Prince Naseem Hamed]]
*[[Rezazadeh Hossein]]
*[[Ayatollah Khomeini]]
*[[Ayatollah Khamenei]]
*[[Mohammad Khatami]]
*[[Osama Bin Laden]]
*President [[Barack Hussein Obama]] (suspected)

== See also ==
[[Image:Africa islam 87.jpg|thumb|Islam in Africa]]
*[[Arab American]]
*[[Islamic republic]]
*[[Qur'an]]
*[[Ramadan]]

==External links==
*[http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html Islam and Christianity] - excellent article comparing and contrasting the two.
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Quran online in English]
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/ Sahih Bukhari (Hadith collection) online in English]
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/ Sahih Muslim (Hadith collection) online in English]
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/ Sunan Abu-Dawud (Hadith collection) online in English]
*[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/ Malik's Muwatta (Hadith collection) online in English]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Islam]]
[[Category:Worldviews]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-04T00:32:41Z

HSpalding: /* Achievements, listed by age at which they were made */ Roger Mason: NPOV

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first fossil recognised by paleontologists to be of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago). He found the fossil in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it.
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Soccer

2009-02-02T21:51:03Z

HSpalding: /* Great Players */ Bobby Moore

[[Image:Soccer passing kick.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Pictured is Salomon Kalou, a striker for top English side Chelsea FC. The player, from [[Ivory Coast]], is in a Premiership game versus Reading]]
'''Soccer''' is a popular [[football sport]] played with a round ball propelled mainly by kicks from a player's foot.
In soccer, players are not allowed to intentionally touch the ball with their hands or arms while it is in play, with the exception of goalkeepers in a restricted area. The goal of the game is to kick the ball into the opposing team's goal; each goal gives that team a point and the team with the most points at the end of the 90 minute game is the winner.

{{football meaning}}

==Rules of the Game==
[[Image:Soccer pitch.gif|right|thumb|300px|left|Dimensions of a soccer pitch]]
The game is played between two teams of 11 players (10 out-field players and one goalkeeper each). In official play, there are two 45 [[minute]] halves separated by a break known as half-time which according to the rules of the game must last less than 20 minutes. Unlike most sports, the clock does not always stop when the ball is not in play. When the ball is knocked out of bounds or a penalty is committed, the clock runs continuously. The [[referee]] makes up the lost time by adding minutes onto the end of the half. This is known as [[stoppage]] or injury time. If both scores are even at the end of regulation time, the game is usually declared a draw. However, in knockout cup games, there is often an additional period of play consisting of two 15-minute halves. In some competitions, the first goal in this period (golden goal) wins the game. If the scores are still level, the result is decided with a [[penalty shootout]]. The set of rules used in soccer are called the [[Laws of the Game]].

The game is played on a [[grass]] (or artificial grass) pitch with dimensions 90-120 m (100-130 yards) in length and 45-90 m (50-100 yards) in width.
<ref>[http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/laws/LOTG2006_e.pdf FIFA Laws of the Game 2006] ''Official FIFA website''</ref>
A goal is scored when the ([[spherical]]) ball is propelled into the opposition net. Each goal is worth one point.

Accuracy in kicking is very important to make sure that one can kick the ball around opponents, manage it in tight spaces, and make long passes to other players in better positions. Expert players have trained to kick from a variety of angles, both forward and back and to the side, and also to use their chests and heads to maneuver a high-flying ball.

==Origins==

The word ''soccer'' derived in England as slang for "Association Football", <ref>[http://london.usembassy.gov/rss/transcripts/worldcup2006a.html] ''US Embassy, London'' </ref>, much like "rugger" is slang for [[rugby|rugby]]. Football games have been popular in [[England]] since the [[middle ages]], but the modern game of soccer derives from formalisations of the rules during the mid nineteenth century. The [[Football Association]] (FA) was founded in 1863 and continues to be the game's governing body within the [[UK]]. "Association Football" (later shortened to soccer) meant the version of football approved by the Football Association's rules. The rules were published at [[Cambridge University]] in 1847, as many private schools were playing each other with different rules. In the middle ages the game had no rules. The match was played between villages and the goals were in each village. The game was often violent and was banned by [[Edward III]] and [[Henry IV]] not for its violence but as it distracted archers from military work. Medieval football is still played in the East Midland city of [[Derby]] on [[Shrove Tuesday]].

==Soccer Around the World==
[[Image:800px-Soccer goalkeeper.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Goalkeeper leaping to make a save]]
It is the most popular [[team sport]] in the world, described by the legendary Brazilian player, [[Pele]], as "The Beautiful Game". Its governing body is [[FIFA]] (Fédération Internationale de Football Association). In most countries it is the most popular sport or at least among the most popular (the [[United States]] being a notable exception). Though it is often not a high-scoring game, its popularity comes from the often dramatic saves from goalkeepers and incredible shots from skilled players in attempts to score a goal.

Every four years there is an international competition known as the [[World Cup]], where countries send their best players to compete for the title of best national soccer team. Every four years in Europe there is the Euro in June and July when the leagues finish which is a 16 team competition for members of UEFA, the European governing body. Each other continent also has a competition, including the African Nations, which is every two years in January.

Many soccer fans are extremely passionate about their favorite teams, travelling to other countries to support them. Several countries have had problems controlling over-excited fans, with the crowd sometimes spilling onto the pitch, fighting with themselves, disliked referees and even players. [[England]] once had a poor reputation from its soccer [[hooligan]]s who got into drunken fistfights with fans of other teams. This situation has largely changed, with much better behaviour at English football matches and considerably increased violence in several other countries, especially [[Italy]].

In most European countries each large town will have at least one football team who play in leagues, which last August to May in most of Europe but March to October in others. Unlike most American sports, the top teams in each league go up a league to be replaced by the last teams in the league above. The top teams in the top division of each country enter the Champions League, a knockout competition played on Wednesdays around the season.

==Great Players==

* [[Ferenc Puskas]], a forward for [[Real Madrid]] and [[Hungary]] in the 1950s, introduced 'total football' and destroyed the old-fashioned English team of the time.
* [[Lev Yashin]] of the USSR in the 1960s is reputed to be the best-ever goalkeeper.
* [[Pele]], [[Brazil]]ian player active from 1956-1974, often considered to be the greatest soccer player to ever kick the ball.
* [[Bobby Moore]], captain of England in the 1966 World Cup Finals and one of the finest ever centre halves.
* [[George Best]], of [[Manchester United]] and [[Northern Ireland]] in the 1960s, was possibly the best player never to have played in the World Cup Finals.
* [[Franz Beckenbauer]] played for [[West Germany]] in the 1960s and 70s. Defenders rarely gain the limelight in football but Beckenbauer's performances against the great teams of England in 1970 and Holland in 1974 were exceptional.
* [[Johann Cruyff]], captain of Holland in 1974 and 1978: why his Dutch team's brand of Total Football never won them the World Cup is an enduring mystery.
* [[Diego Maradona]], [[Argentinia]]n midfielder of the 1980s, often mentioned alongside Pele as one of the greatest.
* [[Zinedine Zidane]], [[French]] player, retired shortly after the World Cup final match between France and [[Italy]] in 2006.
* [[Cristiano Ronaldo]], a [[Portuguese]] contemporary player for [[Manchester United]].

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Sports]]
[[Category:Football soccer]]
[[Category:Soccer]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-02T21:34:05Z

HSpalding: Undo revision 617898 by MauriceB (Talk) The 'Great Achievement' was the fact that he'd discovered the *first ever* pre-Cambrian fossil.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it.
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:53:36Z

HSpalding: Undo revision 617461 by Iduan (Talk) Well-established that Charnwood rocks =pre-Cambrian, ~600 million yr old. Fossils IN rocks must be of that age.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it.
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:46:57Z

HSpalding: To clarify: this page celebrates teenages who've made "great achievements in the fields of art, culture, '''science''' and technology". Mason is right up there.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it.
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:40:54Z

HSpalding: Roger Mason, geologist boy wonder

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:32:43Z

HSpalding: Undo revision 617453 by MauriceB (Talk) I don't understand the remark about "POV". This is factual.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:26:09Z

HSpalding: Undo revision 617439 by MauriceB (Talk) It's all true, MauriceB. Please keep your cool and don't accuse fellow editors of dishonesty.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:10:13Z

HSpalding: Undo revision 617400 by MauriceB (Talk) Ditto.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T22:09:42Z

HSpalding: Undo revision 617401 by MauriceB (Talk) Why did you delete this? This was a major achievement in geology.

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T21:56:33Z

HSpalding: /* Achievements, listed by age at which they were made */ Roger Mason again

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>. The fossil species is named ''Charnia masoni'', in recognition of his contribution to geology and evolutionary biology.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Great Achievements by Teenagers

2009-02-01T21:54:45Z

HSpalding: Roger Mason

Teenagers throughout history have had many great achievements in the fields of art, culture, science and technology. This may be because they are able to think in new and innovative ways, or their thinking is not hidebound by discredited nostrums; it may be attributable to great teachers and great schooling - including homeschooling. It may simply be the emergence of God-given talent at an early age. Biologically the rate of brain development, and according to some studies [[IQ]], reportedly peak in smart individuals just prior to their teenage years.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/30/science/sci-brain30</ref>

==Achievements, listed by age at which they were made==

* '''7''' - Yehudi Menuhin gives his first solo violin performance with the San Francisco Symphony in 1923.
* '''8''' - [[Pablo Picasso]] paints his "Picador".
* '''8''' - [[Frederic Chopin]] plays his first public piano performance, having already authored two polonaises (G minor and B flat major) at age 7.
* '''10''' - [[Michael Kearney]], [[homeschooled]], becomes the world's youngest university graduate.<ref>He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of South Alabama.</ref> At age 17, began a teaching career at college. <ref>[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617185918AAum3vj Who is the YOUNGEST person to graduate college?] Yahoo Answers</ref>
* '''12''' - [[Blaise Pascal]] had secretly worked out the first twenty-three propositions of Euclid by himself.
* '''12''' - [[Jesus]] presents His wisdom in the temple in [[Jerusalem]].
* '''13''' - [[John]] wrote the first draft of the [[Gospel of John]], the greatest written work of all time.<ref>[[Mystery:Was John a Child?]]</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Joan of Arc]] was inspired and led [[France]] five years later to victory over the English in the [[Hundred Years War]]; was martyred at age 19.<ref>http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/History/Joan_of_Arc.shtml</ref>
* '''13''' - [[Anne Frank]] began writing her diary, later published as "Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl."
* '''14''' - [[David]] slays [[Goliath]].
* '''14''' - [[Bobby Fischer]] became an International [[Chess]] Grandmaster.
* '''14''' - [[Mozart]] wrote the opera, "Mitridate Rè di Ponto."
* '''14''' - [[Nadia Comaneci]] "achieved in her sport what no [[Olympian]], male or female, ever had before: perfection."<ref>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july25/flashback.html</ref>
* '''14''' - [[St. Theresa of Lisieux]] rejected by Bishop Hugonin, pleads with Pope Leo XIII so she may enter the Carmelites. Became Carmelite nun at age 15.
* '''14''' - Bernadette Soubirous (St Bernadette of Lourdes) has a vision of the Virgin Mary
* '''15''' - [[Louis Braille]] invented the [[Braille]] system.
* '''15''' - [[Christopher Paolini]] writes the first draft of his [[Eragon]] trilogy which is published when he is 19.
* '''16''' - Jean-François Champollion, can speak a dozen languages and delivers a paper on the Coptic language to the Grenoble Academy. By 20, he can speak another 13 languages and at 32 he deciphers the [[Rosetta Stone]].
* '''16''' - Boy sailor Jack Cornwall, of HMS Chester, is awarded a [[posthumous]] [[VC]] for gallantry at the [[Battle of Jutland]].
* '''16''' - [[Roger Mason]] discovered the first ever fossil of the [[Ediacaran]] period (630-542 million years ago), in Charnwood Forest, Leics, UK <ref>New Scientist, 14 April 2007, p.34, "Life's long fuse"</ref>.
* '''16''' - the average age of 58 [[homeschooled]] teenagers who founded Conservapedia, so that the light of truth would continue to shine and darkness would not overcome it
* '''17''' - Cassie Bernall defended her [[faith]] in front of an [[atheistic]] gunman at the [[Columbine massacre]], and was martyred for it<ref>Two witnesses, Craig Scott and Joshua Lapp, confirmed a question-and-answer confrontation; others said Cassie was praying when murdered.[http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cassie.htm]</ref>
* '''17*''' - [[Mary]] accepts [[God]]'s will to conceive [[Jesus]] by the [[Holy Spirit]], and gives birth nine months later.<ref>Mary's exact age is not known, but she was old enough to marry under Jewish law and was almost certainly a teenager.[http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm]</ref>
* '''17''' - Shawn Fanning develops the first large-scale peer-to-peer file sharing program, Napster
* '''18''' - Shawn Goldsmith from Long Island has earned all 121 merit badges offered by the Boy Scouts. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473964,00.html Boy Scout Earns All 121 Merit Badges] AP, December 30, 2008</ref>
* '''18''' - [[Mary Shelley]] writes Frankenstein (The Modern Prometheus), later published when she was 21.
* '''18''' - [[Gary Kasparov]], considered the greatest [[chess]] player ever, won the [[U.S.S.R.]] championship.
* '''19''' - Captain Albert Ball, [[VC]], MC, DSO & 2 bars, commences his career as a fighter pilot. By the time he is killed, aged 20, in 1917, he has become one of the [[First World War]]'s greatest air aces, accounting for at least 44 [[German]] aircraft.
* '''19''' - was the average age of front-line [[US]] service personnel fighting to defend democracy in [[Indochina]] during the [[Vietnam War]].
* '''19''' - [[Evariste Galois]] develops [[group theory]], and wrote it out completely on the eve of his death at age 20; it took old [[mathematicians]] a century to comprehend it.
* '''19''' - [[John D. Rockefeller]] starts a new company, turning an enormous profit in its first year, and became the most influential businessman in history.<ref>http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pu-Ro/Rockefeller-John-D.html</ref>
* '''19''' - [[Steve Jobs]] begins collaborating in electronics with Steve Wozniak<ref>http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/jobs.htm</ref> in electronics, and developed the personal computer within two years.
* '''19''' - Mark Zuckerberg develops Facebook, the leading social networking system for young people on the [[internet]].
* '''20''' - Carl Friedrich Gauss makes his first mathematical discoveries, which will lead to the completion of "Disquisitiones Arithmeticae", his magnum opus, at the age of 21.
* '''20''' - Willis Carrier invents air conditioning.

(add more, sorted by age and then alphabetically)

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of American Heroes]]
*[[Gallery of British Heroes]]

==External Links==
*[http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-child-prodigies/ Top 10 Child Prodigies]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Achievement]]

Joe Biden

2009-01-29T00:10:51Z

HSpalding: Tenses (JB is now VP)

{{President
|image=Joe Biden, official photo.jpg|200px|Joseph Biden
|seq=47
|office=vice
|term_start=January 20, 2009
|term_end=Present
|party=Democrat
|pres=Barack Hussein Obama
|previous=Richard Cheney
|next=Incumbent
|birth_date=November 20, 1942
|birth_place=Scranton, Pennsylvania
|death_date=
|death_place=
|spouse=[[Jill Biden]]
|spouse2=
|religion=[[Roman Catholic]]
}}
'''Joseph Robinette "Joe" Biden, Jr.''' (born 20 November 1942) is the Vice President of the [[United States]]. In August 2008, Barack Obama selected him as the Democratic Party's Vice Presidential nominee for the [[2008 Presidential election]]. Biden is an expert on foreign affairs, as noted by his support of opening a new front on the War on Terror in 2003. He is noted for his long-winded speeches, one of which was plagiarized from [[Neil Kinnock]].

The speeches proved unavailing in the 2008 Democratic primaries; he dropped out after placing fifth in Iowa in January, 2008. Biden since became Barack Obama's vice-presidential running mate. Biden stresses his Irish Catholic roots in appeals to working class Democrats, who deserted Obama in the primaries.

Biden, senator from [[Delaware]] since 1972, formerly chaired the Senate Judiciary Committee and subsequently the Committee on Foreign Relations. Biden is a self-described northeast [[liberal]] and in 2007 was ranked as the third most liberal U.S. Senator by the non-partisan National Journal. He previously ran for President in 1988 but dropped out of the race after admitting he had [[plagiarism#Joe Biden|plagiarized ]] a speech by the leader of the British Labour Party.<ref>
[http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/50116538.html?FMT=FT&dids=50116538:50116538&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+20,+1987&author=JOHN+HARWOOD&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&desc=Biden's+way+with+words+now+seems+to+be+a+liability&pf=1 Biden's way with words now seems to be a liability] - St. Petersburg Times - Sep 20, 1987</ref> Joe Biden's son Beau, who was elected Attorney General of Delaware in 2006, is currently serving in Iraq.

==Early Life and Education==
Joseph Biden was born in Scranton, [[Pennsylvania]]<ref>Joe Biden Timeline [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/timeline/]</ref> and grew up in New Castle County, Delaware, <ref>Joe Biden Biography [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/]</ref> in a middle class family. His father was a white collar businessmen who did well, but had fallen on hard times when Biden was a youth.<ref>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/joe_bidens_mythical_bluecollar.html</ref> Biden attended Archmere Academy, a private Catholic college-preparatory high school in the Wilmington, Delaware area, graduating in 1961.<ref>Joe Biden Biography [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/]</ref> (Tuition for the 2008-2009 school year at Archmere is $18,450.) Biden took a summer job to help his family pay for his schooling.<ref>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/joe_bidens_mythical_bluecollar.html</ref><ref>Archmere Academy [http://www.archmereacademy.com/Default.aspx?tabid=74]Tuition for 2008-2009 is $18,450.</ref> He graduated from the University of Delaware in 1965, and from the Syracuse University College of Law in 1968 near the bottom of his class.<ref>Joe Biden Biography [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/]</ref> While attending Syracuse Law School, he submitted a paper in which he plagiarized from a law review article. After receiving a grade of F, he was permitted to retake the course.<ref>Biden Admits Plagiarism in School But Says It Was Not 'Malevolent', By E. J. DIONNE JR., SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES, Published: September 18, 1987 [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DB143FF93BA2575AC0A961948260]</ref>

In 1966, while still in law school, Biden married Neilia Hunter.<ref>Joe Biden Timeline [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/timeline/]</ref> They had three children together: Joseph R. "Beau" Dien, III, Robert Hunter, and Naomi. Shortly after his election to the Senate in 1972, his wife and infant daughter were killed in a car accident, and his two sons were seriously injured.<ref>Joe Biden Timeline [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/timeline/]</ref> He eventually remarried to Dr. Jill Biden (nee Jacobs), an educator in Delaware's schools.<ref>Joe Biden Biography [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/]</ref> She currently is an instructor<ref>http://www.dtcc.edu/catalog/pdf/personnel.pdf</ref> teaching at Delaware Technical Community College. Together, the couple added a daughter, Ashley Biden, to the family.<ref>[http://biden.senate.gov/senator/]</ref>

Since 1991, Biden has been an [[adjunct professor]] at the Widener University School of Law, where he teaches a seminar on constitutional law.<ref>Joe Biden Biography [http://biden.senate.gov/senator/]</ref>

==United States Senate==
[[Image:Biden_on_Meet_the_Press.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Biden on Meet The Press, 09/09/07]] Biden took office on January 3, 1973, at age 30, becoming the fifth-youngest U.S. Senator in [[United States]] history. He was later reelected five times. Biden calls himself pro-choice and opposed president [[George W. Bush]]'s two nominees to the U.S. [[Supreme court]]. On [[Roe v. Wade]] he said, "I strongly support Roe v. Wade....That’s why I led the fight to defeat [Robert] Bork. Thank [[God]] he is not in the Court or Roe v. Wade would be gone by now." <ref>http://nrlc.org/Election2008/comparison0909084c.pdf</ref> He received a 100% rating from [[NARAL Pro-Choice America]] in 2001, 2004, 2005 and 2006. <ref>http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=53279</ref> However, not in other years because of his opposition to [[partial-birth abortion]] and public funding for abortions. <ref>http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Joe_Biden_Abortion.htm</ref> On government spending Biden requested 116 congressional earmarks in 2008 alone, resulting in $342 million in taxpayer money. <ref>http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/biden.earmarks/?iref=hpmostpop</ref> He is a strong opponent of 2nd-amendment rights, earning an F by the [[National Rifle Association]]. Biden has also voted to give [[Social Security]] benefits and citizenship to [[illegal aliens]]. On energy, he opposes more domestic oil production, saying proponents of offshore drilling want to "rape" the Outer Continental Shelf.

As chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Biden was a major player in making foreign policy. He voted against the Persian [[Gulf War]] in 1991, but voted for the Iraq War Resolution in 2002, although he now criticizes the management of the war. He voted against setting a timetable for troop withdrawal and is against cutting off funding for the troops on the ground. In a 2005 interview with Meet the Press, Biden said, "I’ve been calling for more troops [in Iraq] for over two years, along with [[John McCain]] and others subsequent to my saying that." On July 23, 2007 Biden said, "there's not a single [[military]] man in this [[audience]], who will tell this Senator he can get those troops out in six months if the order goes today, lets start telling the truth." <ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wylferBh3IA</ref> He has also proposed dividing the Iraqi Population by giving Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis their own regions.

Biden was a long-time member of the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary, which he chaired from 1987 until 1995 and served as ranking minority member from 1981 until 1987 and again from 1995 until 1997. He almost never supported a supreme court nominee who was not in his party and presided over two of the more contentious [[U.S. Supreme Court]] confirmation hearings ever, [[Robert Bork]] in 1987 and [[Clarence Thomas]] in 1991.

Joe Biden has close ties with lobbyist by receiving $5,133,072 in contributions from [[lawyer]]s and [[lobbyist]]s since 2003. Also, one of Biden’s sons, Hunter, is a registered [[Washington]] lobbyist.

==Controversial comments==
*During the 2005 confirmation hearings for Justice [[John Roberts]], Biden asked Roberts, "Can a microscopic tag be planted in someones body to track his every move, you will rule on that." <ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPvWm9ZkYw</ref>

*In July 2006, while speaking to a group of Indian-Americans in Delaware, Biden stated, "You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking." His comment was caught on C-SPAN.

*In August of 2006, Biden was on [[Fox News]] Sunday and bragged about his state being a former [[slave]] state. "You don't know my state. My state was a slave state. My state is a border state. My state is the eighth largest black population in the country. My state is anything from a northeast liberal state."

*Talking about his fellow Democratic presidential candidate [[Barack Obama]] he said in January of 2007, "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy, ... I mean, that's a storybook, man."

*In March 2007, Biden was criticizing President [[George W. Bush]] for vetoing a bill that would set a time line for troops to be removed from Iraq, saying that [[Congress]] should "shove it down his throat."<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/5/1/144042.shtml?s=us</ref>

*Joe Biden once told voters that his [[helicopter]] was "forced down" on "the superhighway of terror" by Afghan extremists. When actually, snow forced the helicopter pilot to land and wait out a [[storm]]. <ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431604,00.html</ref>

*In the Oct. 2008 VP debate, Biden made numerous misstatements, on topics ranging from the Constitution to the Mideast.

==1988 Presidential Campaign==
Joe Biden announced his candidacy for President in 1987. He ran on his experience, saying in an campaign advertisement "The [[White House]] isn't the place to learn how to deal with international crisis, the balance of power, war and peace, and the economic future of the next generation." His campaign was short-lived due to controversies. While campaigning in [[New Hampshire]] in 1987, a reporter asked about his grades in college, to which Biden yelled, "I think I have a much higher I.Q. than you do." He went on to say that he "went to law school on a full academic scholarship - the only one in my class to have a full academic scholarship" adding that he "ended up in the top half" of his class (which is false) and "graduated with three degrees from college" (which is also false).

Later in the campaign he was found to have plagiarized a speech from British Labour Party (UK) leader [[Neil Kinnock]]. The plagiarism was considered all the more serious, because it included details of Kinnock's life which were not true in Biden's case. Biden dropped out of the race in December 1987, and did not participate in the 1988 Democratic caucuses and primaries.

== 2004 Presidential Campaign ==
Joe Biden considered running as a Presidential candidate for the 2004 elections, but then decided against it, saying that it would be "now too much of a long shot."<ref>[http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/president/candidates/whos.in.out.html CNN: Who is in, who is out 2004]</ref>. He was later mentioned as a possible running mate for Democratic Senator [[John Kerry]], but he instead urged Kerry to chose Senator John McCain.<ref>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4961694/</ref>

== 2008 Presidential Campaign ==

Biden declared his candidacy for [[President]] on January 31, 2007 after months of prior discussions, but later withdrew after the [[Iowa Caucus]] when his candidacy failed to catch on with the voters.<ref> FOX News: [http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/01/04/chris-dodd-abandons-presidential-campaign-after-poor-showing-in-iowa/ Biden, Dodd Bow Out of Presidential Race After Poor Showings in Iowa]</ref>

He ran on his foreign policy experience and credentials in the Senate. On November 15, 2007, during the CNN presidential debate, he said

"This is not about experience. It's not about change. It's about action. Who among us is going to be able to, on Day 1, step in and end the war?".

In the 2007 ABC debate with the Democratic presidential candidates, Biden was asked about the statement he made earlier regarding [[Barack Obama]]. He said:

<blockquote>"I think he can be ready but right now, I don’t believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training." Biden replied "I think that I stand by the statement." <ref>[http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/23/mccain-launches-tv-ad-using-bidens-words-against-obama/ McCain Launches TV Ad Using Biden’s Words Against Obama] Fox News, August 23, 2008</ref></blockquote>

Joe Biden withdrew from the presidential race on January 3, after coming 5th in the Iowa caucus, receiving only 1% of the vote.

==Vice Presidential Nomination==
[[Image:0.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Biden campaigning for Barack Obama, 09/24/08]] Biden had been mentioned as a Vice Presidential candidate for Senator [[Barack Obama]], in that he would add foreign policy experience to the ticket. When asked in June over the speculation, Biden stated, "I'd make a great president. I'd make a great [[Secretary of State]]. I'd make a great vice president." <ref>The Hill's Blog Briefing Room: [http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2008/06/17/biden-id-make-a-great-president-secretary-of-state-vice-president/ Biden: I'd Make a Great President, Secretary of State, Vice President]</ref> On August 19th, Biden was asked by reporters of his VP status, to which he replied "Hey guys, I'm not the guy. See ya." <ref>[http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/biden-on-obamas.html?cid=127045696 Biden on Obama's VP Pick: 'I'm Not The Guy'] ABC News, August 19, 2008</ref>

In August 2005 Biden paradoxically and nonsensically said, "[[John McCain]] is a personal friend, a great friend, and I would be honored to run with or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off."<ref>National Review Online: [http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGRhNzJlMWY5NjdiNzhjMTRkYjMzNjYwOGJmYzNjMTY= 'Just Words' That Joe Biden Would Like To Forget]</ref>

However, on August 23rd it was announced that Biden would be Obama's 2008 running mate. They appeared together in [[Springfield]], [[Illinois]]. Obama proudly introduced Senator Biden,
''

''"Let me introduce to you, the next president — the next vice president of the United States of America, Joe Biden."''

Biden took the stage and endorsed Obama, saying,
''

''"In this election year the choice is clear, one man stands ready to deliver change we desperately need, a man I'm proud to call my friend, a man who will be the next President of the [[United States]], Barack America."''
''

Obama hoped Biden would help the ticket in multiple ways:

* Biden has extensive foreign policy experience in the United States Senate and as such could have helped to bolster Obama's comparative lack of experience in this area.
* Biden is [[Catholic]], and Obama was weak with that key voting bloc; however, the [[Catholic Church]] may have taken offense at Biden's pro-[[abortion]] positions (see below).
* Biden was born in [[Pennsylvania]], a must-win state for Obama where he was thought to be weak;<ref>[[Hillary Clinton]] defeated Obama by a wide margin in the [[Pennsylvania]] primary; in August polls show Obama leading McCain by an average of only 5.8% in [[Pennsylvania]] [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_mccain_vs_obama-244.html RealClearPolitics Pennsylvania Tracking]</ref>
* Biden's son is going to [[Iraq]], which may have helped to rehabilitate Obama's image as anti-military; however, Biden himself never served.

Almost immediately after his selection, the conflict between his pro-[[abortion]] position and that of his church surfaced:<ref>Reuters: [http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS29316+23-Aug-2008+PRN20080823 Choice of Biden Re-Opens Catholic Wound]</ref>

:Biden has said: "I am a long-standing supporter of ''[[Roe v. Wade]]'' and a woman's right to choose." But Biden's own bishop, Bishop Michael Saltarelli of Wilmington, Del., has ... denounced the notion that politicians can 'personally oppose' abortion, but refuse to pass laws protecting the unborn. He made clear that pro-abortion Catholic politicians should refrain from receiving the Eucharist:

:"The promotion of abortion by any Catholic is a grave and serious matter. Objectively, according to the constant teaching of the Scriptures and the Church, it would be more spiritually beneficial for such a person to refrain from receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. I ask Catholics in this position to have the integrity to respect the Eucharist, Catholic teaching and the Catholic faithful."

Biden's [[Republican]] opponent for the Vice Presidency was [[Alaska]] [[Governor]] [[Sarah Palin]]. They participated in their first and only Vice Presidential debate on October 2nd in [[St. Louis]], [[Missouri]]. Biden was elected the 47th Vice President of the United States on November 4, 2008.

==See also==
*[[2008 Presidential Election]]
*[[John McCain]]
*[[Democratic Party]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==External Links==
*[http://biden.senate.gov/ Official Site]
*[http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Joe_Biden.htm Biden On the Issues]
*[http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/b000444/ Voting Record]
*[http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=B000444, Biography at the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress]
*[http://www.joebiden.com/ Presidential Race Site]

{{liberalism}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Biden, Joseph}}
[[Category:United States Senators]]
[[Category:Democratic Party]]
[[Category:Liberals]]
[[Category:2008 Presidential Candidates]]
[[Category:110th United States Congress]]

Talk:Soccer

2009-01-19T00:49:24Z

HSpalding: /* Great Players */ Bobby Moore!

Soccer is the term used in [[North America]] to refer to what is more commonly known as "football". The name derived in [[England]] as slang for "Association Football" (a similar construction can be seen in referring to [[rugby]] as "rugger"), it is the most popular sport in the world although it has failed to gain popularity in the [[United States]] and [[Canada]].

----
*most popular sport in the world
*not as popular in US & Canada as which other sports?
*derivation of name: ''soc'' in "Association"?
::Done and referenced. [[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 05:22, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

*called "football" everywhere but North America?
:: Futebal, fussball, le foot, futbol, de voetbal, calcio. Is that enough evidence? [[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 05:22, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
::: Evidence of what? That it's called "football" everywhere? Because I think that's pretty conclusive. All of those mean "football", except for "calcio", which means "kicking." In Chinese, it is "foot+ball", zuqiu, 足球. Basically, football is football, and soccer is an ugly name that doesn't express what the game is. And "football" is by far the most common name - about 400,000,000 Europeans use terms that are identical in meaning or even sound, 1,300,000,000 Chinese use a term that means "football", and the inventors of the sport use the term "football". If the site as a whole prefers the use of "soccer", then fine, but it's not an accurate article in a sense. [[User:Blackjuice|Blackjuice]] 10:59, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

It's called soccer in Australia, though the name football is gaining popularity (they are trying to compare Australian soccer to World Football). It is still commonly refered to as soccer by the public at large. [[User:Hannibal ad portas|Hannibal ad portas]] 21:42, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Shouldn't it be categorised under Sports? I saw that categorisation was just removed. [[User:NotForgotten|NotForgotten]] 16:01, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

:Hello, soccer is a sub-category of sports. Generally speaking, we try to move materials to sub-categories when they exist. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:04, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

==Name==
Why is this sport being called soccer, when in pretty much all of the world it is called football? [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 13:38, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

:Because this is an American website. It ''is'' noted in the article that it's called "football" outside the U.S. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 13:49, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

:Ah, I didn't realise that. So everything here is written from the point of view of the United States? [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 16:42, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

::Do you see the Conservapedia logo on the upper left? That should sufficiently answer your question. Of course, this is little different from Wikipedia, which typically uses American spelling, terms and phrases. (When they try to be world-minded over there, it just ends up being silly or confusing. The WP article about soccer is titled "Association football." People are going to look at that rarely used phrase and think, "What the heck is that?") [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 18:44, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

== Etymology ==

The suggestion that the game is called "football" not because the ball is kicked with the foot but because it is played "on foot" rather than on horseback is a myth. It is a myth which has gained popularity in reason years, especially on the internet, but citing a website which puts this theory forward does not stop it being a myth. See for example [http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19960509 this] etymology website which states that the reason it was named football was because of kicking the ball.

The argument in the previously cited [http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/fa-cup/biography/history-of-football source] is that football developed in the middle ages as "a game played by ordinary people, as distinct from the team games of the nobility which were played on horseback". This would make some sense, ''if'' there were any examples of team ball games played on horseback during this period. There were not. The only notable equine ball game is polo, which was played in the middle east since ancient times, but not in the English speaking world until the 19th century, several centuries after the first use of the word "football". Medieval and early modern equine sports in Europe were largely variants on jousting or combat, which did not involve balls. There were numerous ball games, all played on foot, such as tennis, croquet, bowls and stoolball (the origin of cricket). Since football was the only game which involved kicking the ball, this is the most probable reason for the origin of the name.

However, since there is disagreement on this issue, and this is likely to continue, it is probably better to keep any mention of the origin of the word "football" out of the article. [[User:Sideways|Sideways]] 14:49, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

==Changes==

I rewrote a large portion of the article to remove the redundant facts. In a short article, the information about soccer and football being the same game was repeated three times. As was the rule about not using hands. I hope this helps. [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 15:02, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

: Sorry, but there are several more cases with the ball in play. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 18:01, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
::Can you please give me any example of when a player is allowed to use his hands while the ball is in play? And also, if you want to remove or rework that phrase, fine. But why do you revert the entire change to add back in the redundant passages? [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 12:52, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
::: Those "redundant passages" make more clear the problem of hands. With the clock runing any player can touch the ball with hands in several cases like: corners, penalties, side throws (saque de banda), goal kick, etc. (Sorry, I am not familiar with the correct name in English.) It has to be clair that non intentional touch is also permitted. That Does not appear in your edits. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 14:01, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
::::The clock running and the ball in play are two different things altogether. During a corner, or a throw or any of the other examples you've noted, the ball is not in play. If you and I were on opposite teams, and I got a throw in, you can't make a play on the ball until it leaves my hands. That's what I mean by in play. [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 14:15, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

::::: I see your point and agree with it. Now you have to say the same thing in the article; It was you who start talking about "ball in play"; before it was more general; please make clear both cases. OK? Also: ''It has to be clear that non intentional touch is also permitted.'' --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 16:06, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
::::::Agreed, I'll start on that as soon as I have the time. [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 16:49, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

Joaquín and Nate, you seen to be working the most on this article. Can I make a suggestion? We should have a section with Rules (this would be a good place for the Soccer Pitch image) and then another section with world popularity, the [[World Cup]], [[FIFA]] and great players. Unfortunately I don't think I know enough about the sport to make significant contributions. -[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 00:16, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

: Welcome to the soccer team. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 00:23, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

== Great Players ==

I've tried to make this more representative. Any other suggestions? (Alberto di Stefano? Bobby Charlton? Gordon Banks? Bobby Moore? Michel Platini?) And what about the pre-war era? I imagine most of the names there would come from English or Scottish club football. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 19:48, 18 January 2009 (EST)

Talk:Soccer

2009-01-19T00:48:26Z

HSpalding: /* Great Players */ new section

Soccer is the term used in [[North America]] to refer to what is more commonly known as "football". The name derived in [[England]] as slang for "Association Football" (a similar construction can be seen in referring to [[rugby]] as "rugger"), it is the most popular sport in the world although it has failed to gain popularity in the [[United States]] and [[Canada]].

----
*most popular sport in the world
*not as popular in US & Canada as which other sports?
*derivation of name: ''soc'' in "Association"?
::Done and referenced. [[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 05:22, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

*called "football" everywhere but North America?
:: Futebal, fussball, le foot, futbol, de voetbal, calcio. Is that enough evidence? [[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 05:22, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
::: Evidence of what? That it's called "football" everywhere? Because I think that's pretty conclusive. All of those mean "football", except for "calcio", which means "kicking." In Chinese, it is "foot+ball", zuqiu, 足球. Basically, football is football, and soccer is an ugly name that doesn't express what the game is. And "football" is by far the most common name - about 400,000,000 Europeans use terms that are identical in meaning or even sound, 1,300,000,000 Chinese use a term that means "football", and the inventors of the sport use the term "football". If the site as a whole prefers the use of "soccer", then fine, but it's not an accurate article in a sense. [[User:Blackjuice|Blackjuice]] 10:59, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

It's called soccer in Australia, though the name football is gaining popularity (they are trying to compare Australian soccer to World Football). It is still commonly refered to as soccer by the public at large. [[User:Hannibal ad portas|Hannibal ad portas]] 21:42, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Shouldn't it be categorised under Sports? I saw that categorisation was just removed. [[User:NotForgotten|NotForgotten]] 16:01, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

:Hello, soccer is a sub-category of sports. Generally speaking, we try to move materials to sub-categories when they exist. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 16:04, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

==Name==
Why is this sport being called soccer, when in pretty much all of the world it is called football? [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 13:38, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

:Because this is an American website. It ''is'' noted in the article that it's called "football" outside the U.S. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 13:49, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

:Ah, I didn't realise that. So everything here is written from the point of view of the United States? [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 16:42, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

::Do you see the Conservapedia logo on the upper left? That should sufficiently answer your question. Of course, this is little different from Wikipedia, which typically uses American spelling, terms and phrases. (When they try to be world-minded over there, it just ends up being silly or confusing. The WP article about soccer is titled "Association football." People are going to look at that rarely used phrase and think, "What the heck is that?") [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 18:44, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

== Etymology ==

The suggestion that the game is called "football" not because the ball is kicked with the foot but because it is played "on foot" rather than on horseback is a myth. It is a myth which has gained popularity in reason years, especially on the internet, but citing a website which puts this theory forward does not stop it being a myth. See for example [http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19960509 this] etymology website which states that the reason it was named football was because of kicking the ball.

The argument in the previously cited [http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/fa-cup/biography/history-of-football source] is that football developed in the middle ages as "a game played by ordinary people, as distinct from the team games of the nobility which were played on horseback". This would make some sense, ''if'' there were any examples of team ball games played on horseback during this period. There were not. The only notable equine ball game is polo, which was played in the middle east since ancient times, but not in the English speaking world until the 19th century, several centuries after the first use of the word "football". Medieval and early modern equine sports in Europe were largely variants on jousting or combat, which did not involve balls. There were numerous ball games, all played on foot, such as tennis, croquet, bowls and stoolball (the origin of cricket). Since football was the only game which involved kicking the ball, this is the most probable reason for the origin of the name.

However, since there is disagreement on this issue, and this is likely to continue, it is probably better to keep any mention of the origin of the word "football" out of the article. [[User:Sideways|Sideways]] 14:49, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

==Changes==

I rewrote a large portion of the article to remove the redundant facts. In a short article, the information about soccer and football being the same game was repeated three times. As was the rule about not using hands. I hope this helps. [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 15:02, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

: Sorry, but there are several more cases with the ball in play. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 18:01, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
::Can you please give me any example of when a player is allowed to use his hands while the ball is in play? And also, if you want to remove or rework that phrase, fine. But why do you revert the entire change to add back in the redundant passages? [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 12:52, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
::: Those "redundant passages" make more clear the problem of hands. With the clock runing any player can touch the ball with hands in several cases like: corners, penalties, side throws (saque de banda), goal kick, etc. (Sorry, I am not familiar with the correct name in English.) It has to be clair that non intentional touch is also permitted. That Does not appear in your edits. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 14:01, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
::::The clock running and the ball in play are two different things altogether. During a corner, or a throw or any of the other examples you've noted, the ball is not in play. If you and I were on opposite teams, and I got a throw in, you can't make a play on the ball until it leaves my hands. That's what I mean by in play. [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 14:15, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

::::: I see your point and agree with it. Now you have to say the same thing in the article; It was you who start talking about "ball in play"; before it was more general; please make clear both cases. OK? Also: ''It has to be clear that non intentional touch is also permitted.'' --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 16:06, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
::::::Agreed, I'll start on that as soon as I have the time. [[User:NateE|NateE]][[User talk:NateE| Let Us Communicate]] 16:49, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

Joaquín and Nate, you seen to be working the most on this article. Can I make a suggestion? We should have a section with Rules (this would be a good place for the Soccer Pitch image) and then another section with world popularity, the [[World Cup]], [[FIFA]] and great players. Unfortunately I don't think I know enough about the sport to make significant contributions. -[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 00:16, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

: Welcome to the soccer team. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 00:23, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

== Great Players ==

I've tried to make this more representative. Any other suggestions? (Alberto di Stefano? Bobby Charlton? Gordon Banks? Michel Platini?) And what about the pre-war era? I imagine most of the names there would come from English or Scottish club football. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 19:48, 18 January 2009 (EST)

Soccer

2009-01-19T00:44:47Z

HSpalding: /* Great Players */ I've tried to make this more representative.

[[Image:Soccer passing kick.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Pictured is Salomon Kalou, a striker for top English side Chelsea FC. The player, from [[Ivory Coast]], is in a Premiership game versus Reading]]
'''Soccer''' is a popular [[football sport]] played with a round ball propelled mainly by kicks from a player's foot.
In soccer, players are not allowed to intentionally touch the ball with their hands or arms while it is in play, with the exception of goalkeepers in a restricted area. The goal of the game is to kick the ball into the opposing team's goal; each goal gives that team a point and the team with the most points at the end of the 90 minute game is the winner.

{{football meaning}}

==Rules of the Game==
[[Image:Soccer pitch.gif|right|thumb|300px|left|Dimensions of a soccer pitch]]
The game is played between two teams of 11 players (10 out-field players and one goalkeeper each). In official play, there are two 45 [[minute]] halves separated by a break known as half-time which according to the rules of the game must last less than 20 minutes. Unlike most sports, the clock does not always stop when the ball is not in play. When the ball is knocked out of bounds or a penalty is committed, the clock runs continuously. The [[referee]] makes up the lost time by adding minutes onto the end of the half. This is known as [[stoppage]] or injury time. If both scores are even at the end of regulation time, the game is usually declared a draw. However, in knockout cup games, there is often an additional period of play consisting of two 15-minute halves. In some competitions, the first goal in this period (golden goal) wins the game. If the scores are still level, the result is decided with a [[penalty shootout]]. The set of rules used in soccer are called the [[Laws of the Game]].

The game is played on a [[grass]] (or artificial grass) pitch with dimensions 90-120 m (100-130 yards) in length and 45-90 m (50-100 yards) in width.
<ref>[http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/laws/LOTG2006_e.pdf FIFA Laws of the Game 2006] ''Official FIFA website''</ref>
A goal is scored when the ([[spherical]]) ball is propelled into the opposition net. Each goal is worth one point.

Accuracy in kicking is very important to make sure that one can kick the ball around opponents, manage it in tight spaces, and make long passes to other players in better positions. Expert players have trained to kick from a variety of angles, both forward and back and to the side, and also to use their chests and heads to maneuver a high-flying ball.

==Origins==

The word ''soccer'' derived in England as slang for "Association Football", <ref>[http://london.usembassy.gov/rss/transcripts/worldcup2006a.html] ''US Embassy, London'' </ref>, much like "rugger" is slang for [[rugby|rugby]]. Football games have been popular in [[England]] since the [[middle ages]], but the modern game of soccer derives from formalisations of the rules during the mid nineteenth century. The [[Football Association]] (FA) was founded in 1863 and continues to be the game's governing body within the [[UK]]. "Association Football" (later shortened to soccer) meant the version of football approved by the Football Association's rules. The rules were published at [[Cambridge University]] in 1847, as many private schools were playing each other with different rules. In the middle ages the game had no rules. The match was played between villages and the goals were in each village. The game was often violent and was banned by [[Edward III]] and [[Henry IV]] not for its violence but as it distracted archers from military work. Medieval football is still played in the East Midland city of [[Derby]] on [[Shrove Tuesday]].

==Soccer Around the World==
[[Image:800px-Soccer goalkeeper.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Goalkeeper leaping to make a save]]
It is the most popular [[team sport]] in the world, described by the legendary Brazilian player, [[Pele]], as "The Beautiful Game". Its governing body is [[FIFA]] (Fédération Internationale de Football Association). In most countries it is the most popular sport or at least among the most popular (the [[United States]] being a notable exception). Though it is often not a high-scoring game, its popularity comes from the often dramatic saves from goalkeepers and incredible shots from skilled players in attempts to score a goal.

Every four years there is an international competition known as the [[World Cup]], where countries send their best players to compete for the title of best national soccer team. Every four years in Europe there is the Euro in June and July when the leagues finish which is a 16 team competition for members of UEFA, the European governing body. Each other continent also has a competition, including the African Nations, which is every two years in January.

Many soccer fans are extremely passionate about their favorite teams, travelling to other countries to support them. Several countries have had problems controlling over-excited fans, with the crowd sometimes spilling onto the pitch, fighting with themselves, disliked referees and even players. [[England]] once had a poor reputation from its soccer [[hooligan]]s who got into drunken fistfights with fans of other teams. This situation has largely changed, with much better behaviour at English football matches and considerably increased violence in several other countries, especially [[Italy]].

In most European countries each large town will have at least one football team who play in leagues, which last August to May in most of Europe but March to October in others. Unlike most American sports, the top teams in each league go up a league to be replaced by the last teams in the league above. The top teams in the top division of each country enter the Champions League, a knockout competition played on Wednesdays around the season.

==Great Players==

* [[Ferenc Puskas]], a forward for [[Real Madrid]] and [[Hungary]] in the 1950s, introduced 'total football' and destroyed the old-fashioned English team of the time.
* [[Lev Yashin]] of the USSR in the 1960s is reputed to be the best-ever goalkeeper.
* [[Pele]], [[Brazil]]ian player active from 1956-1974, often considered to be the greatest soccer player to ever kick the ball.
* [[George Best]], of [[Manchester United]] and [[Northern Ireland]] in the 1960s, was possibly the best player never to have played in the World Cup Finals.
* [[Franz Beckenbauer]] played for [[West Germany]] in the 1960s and 70s. Defenders rarely gain the limelight in football but Beckenbauer's performances against the great teams of England in 1970 and Holland in 1974 were exceptional.
* [[Johann Cruyff]], captain of Holland in 1974 and 1978: why his Dutch team's brand of Total Football never won them the World Cup is an enduring mystery.
* [[Diego Maradona]], [[Argentinia]]n midfielder of the 1980s, often mentioned alongside Pele as one of the greatest.
* [[Zinedine Zidane]], [[French]] player, retired shortly after the World Cup final match between France and [[Italy]] in 2006.
* [[Cristiano Ronaldo]], a [[Portuguese]] contemporary player for [[Manchester United]].

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Sports]]
[[Category:Football soccer]]
[[Category:Soccer]]

Soccer

2009-01-19T00:33:51Z

HSpalding: /* Soccer Around the World */ Several, notably updating hooligan situation

[[Image:Soccer passing kick.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Pictured is Salomon Kalou, a striker for top English side Chelsea FC. The player, from [[Ivory Coast]], is in a Premiership game versus Reading]]
'''Soccer''' is a popular [[football sport]] played with a round ball propelled mainly by kicks from a player's foot.
In soccer, players are not allowed to intentionally touch the ball with their hands or arms while it is in play, with the exception of goalkeepers in a restricted area. The goal of the game is to kick the ball into the opposing team's goal; each goal gives that team a point and the team with the most points at the end of the 90 minute game is the winner.

{{football meaning}}

==Rules of the Game==
[[Image:Soccer pitch.gif|right|thumb|300px|left|Dimensions of a soccer pitch]]
The game is played between two teams of 11 players (10 out-field players and one goalkeeper each). In official play, there are two 45 [[minute]] halves separated by a break known as half-time which according to the rules of the game must last less than 20 minutes. Unlike most sports, the clock does not always stop when the ball is not in play. When the ball is knocked out of bounds or a penalty is committed, the clock runs continuously. The [[referee]] makes up the lost time by adding minutes onto the end of the half. This is known as [[stoppage]] or injury time. If both scores are even at the end of regulation time, the game is usually declared a draw. However, in knockout cup games, there is often an additional period of play consisting of two 15-minute halves. In some competitions, the first goal in this period (golden goal) wins the game. If the scores are still level, the result is decided with a [[penalty shootout]]. The set of rules used in soccer are called the [[Laws of the Game]].

The game is played on a [[grass]] (or artificial grass) pitch with dimensions 90-120 m (100-130 yards) in length and 45-90 m (50-100 yards) in width.
<ref>[http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/laws/LOTG2006_e.pdf FIFA Laws of the Game 2006] ''Official FIFA website''</ref>
A goal is scored when the ([[spherical]]) ball is propelled into the opposition net. Each goal is worth one point.

Accuracy in kicking is very important to make sure that one can kick the ball around opponents, manage it in tight spaces, and make long passes to other players in better positions. Expert players have trained to kick from a variety of angles, both forward and back and to the side, and also to use their chests and heads to maneuver a high-flying ball.

==Origins==

The word ''soccer'' derived in England as slang for "Association Football", <ref>[http://london.usembassy.gov/rss/transcripts/worldcup2006a.html] ''US Embassy, London'' </ref>, much like "rugger" is slang for [[rugby|rugby]]. Football games have been popular in [[England]] since the [[middle ages]], but the modern game of soccer derives from formalisations of the rules during the mid nineteenth century. The [[Football Association]] (FA) was founded in 1863 and continues to be the game's governing body within the [[UK]]. "Association Football" (later shortened to soccer) meant the version of football approved by the Football Association's rules. The rules were published at [[Cambridge University]] in 1847, as many private schools were playing each other with different rules. In the middle ages the game had no rules. The match was played between villages and the goals were in each village. The game was often violent and was banned by [[Edward III]] and [[Henry IV]] not for its violence but as it distracted archers from military work. Medieval football is still played in the East Midland city of [[Derby]] on [[Shrove Tuesday]].

==Soccer Around the World==
[[Image:800px-Soccer goalkeeper.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Goalkeeper leaping to make a save]]
It is the most popular [[team sport]] in the world, described by the legendary Brazilian player, [[Pele]], as "The Beautiful Game". Its governing body is [[FIFA]] (Fédération Internationale de Football Association). In most countries it is the most popular sport or at least among the most popular (the [[United States]] being a notable exception). Though it is often not a high-scoring game, its popularity comes from the often dramatic saves from goalkeepers and incredible shots from skilled players in attempts to score a goal.

Every four years there is an international competition known as the [[World Cup]], where countries send their best players to compete for the title of best national soccer team. Every four years in Europe there is the Euro in June and July when the leagues finish which is a 16 team competition for members of UEFA, the European governing body. Each other continent also has a competition, including the African Nations, which is every two years in January.

Many soccer fans are extremely passionate about their favorite teams, travelling to other countries to support them. Several countries have had problems controlling over-excited fans, with the crowd sometimes spilling onto the pitch, fighting with themselves, disliked referees and even players. [[England]] once had a poor reputation from its soccer [[hooligan]]s who got into drunken fistfights with fans of other teams. This situation has largely changed, with much better behaviour at English football matches and considerably increased violence in several other countries, especially [[Italy]].

In most European countries each large town will have at least one football team who play in leagues, which last August to May in most of Europe but March to October in others. Unlike most American sports, the top teams in each league go up a league to be replaced by the last teams in the league above. The top teams in the top division of each country enter the Champions League, a knockout competition played on Wednesdays around the season.

==Great Players==

* [[David Beckham]], [[British]] player, currently playing for [[Los Angeles Galaxy|Los Angeles]].
* [[Pele]], [[Brazil]]ian player active from 1956-1974, considered to be the greatest soccer player to ever kick the ball.
* [[Cristiano Ronaldo]], a [[Portuguese]] contemparry player for [[Manchester United]].
* [[Zinedine Zidane]], [[French]] player, retired shortly after the World Cup final match between France and [[Italy]] in 2006.
* [[Thierry Henry]], a French striker previously of Arsenal, he now plays for Barcelona.

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Sports]]
[[Category:Football soccer]]
[[Category:Soccer]]

Soccer teams in England

2009-01-19T00:29:19Z

HSpalding: /* Championship teams */ Founder members of League noted.

The game of [[soccer|football]] in [[England]] - known as ''soccer'' in some parts of the world - is organised into four professional leagues at the apex of a pyramid of semi-professional and amateur leagues. There are 92 professional teams and innumerable semi-pro and amateur sides. The four professional leagues comprise the Premier League (20 teams), the Championship, League One and League Two (24 teams each). Below League Two, the Conference league provides a stepping-stone for semi-pro sides to gain promotion to the professional leagues.

==Premier League teams==

*'''[[Arsenal F.C.]]''' is based in north [[London]]. The team is managed by [[Arsene Wenger]]. Finishing fourth in the [[English Premier League]] in the 2006/7 season, the team features major international stars of football. Former star [[Thierry Henry]] has recently left the team after eight years of huge success, departing to [[Barcelona]] in the summer of 2007. In 2006 the team moved from their old stadium, ''Arsenal Stadium'', located in, and more commonly known as ''Highbury''. The team's new stadium is named after the [[Dubai]] airline and sponsor, [[Emirates Airlines|Emirates]].

*'''[[Aston Villa F.C.]]''' is based in [[Aston]], [[Birmingham]], in the English [[Midlands]]. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League. Currently coached by Martin O'Neill, a former player for [[Northern Ireland]], [[Nottingham Forest]], [[Norwich City]] and [[Manchester City F.C.|Manchester City]].They finished the 2006/7 season in 11th position in the [[English Premier League]].

*'''[[Blackburn Rovers F.C.]]''' is an [[England|English]] [[football]] team that play in the [[English Premier League|Premiership]] . The club hails from the town of [[Blackburn]] in [[Lancashire]]. Formed in 1875, Rovers were one of the 12 founding members of the Football League. They have won the league championship a total of 3 times and were 1994-5 Premiership champions, in addition they have won the F.A. Cup 6 times and the League Cup once. Blacburn's current manager is former Manchester United player Paul Ince. Their home stadium is Ewood Park.<ref>[http://www.rovers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Blacburn Rovers FC Homepage]</ref>

*'''[[Bolton Wanderers F.C.]]''', one of the 12 founder members of the Football League, play in the town of [[Bolton]], north-east of Manchester. Historically, they have played in either of the top two divisions of the League. They have won the F.A. Cup several times but have never been League champions.

*'''[[Chelsea F.C.]]''' play at Stamford Bridge, in west [[London]]. The club is owned by [[Russia]]n billionaire [[Roman Abramovich]] was managed by [[Avram Grant]] for most of the 2007-08 season. In 2007-08 the side finished second in the Premier League.

*'''[[Everton F.C.]]''' is based in [[Liverpool]]. Founded in 1878 as a church sports side they were became of the 12 founder members of the [[Football League]] in 1888. However, owing to a rent dispute in 1892 they left their home ground of [[Anfield]] and moved to a new site at [[Goodison Park]], where they have played ever since. There are plans under discussion to move outside the city of Liverpool and establish a new ground over a Tesco supermarket in nearby Knowsley. The club's nickname is ''The Toffees''; although there are several hypotheses about how the name arose it is likely that it derives from the black and white striped, toffee filled, candy known as an ''Everton Mint''. Everton's biggest rivals are [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] who were formed in 1892 to utilise the abandoned Anfield ground. Despite Everton's successes over the years they have been overshadowed by their illustrious neighbours who hold the records for the most top flight championships as well as European trophies won in the English game.

*'''[[Fulham F.C.]]''' is based in the [[London]] Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Their nickname is The Cottagers, after their home ground of Craven Cottage alongside the [[River Thames]], which can usually be seen during the Oxford and Cambridge boat-race. The club was founded in 1879 and are the oldest professional soccer team in London. The club strip comprises white shirts and socks with black shorts. Despite their long history they have never won any major honors. The club is currently owned by the Egyptian millionaire and owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed who took control in 1997.
*[http://www.fulhamfc.com Official site]
*[http://www.premierleague.com/page/fulham Premier League - Fulham]

*'''[[Hull City F.C.]]''', based in the east-coast port city of [[Hull]], were promoted to the Premier League in 2008. This will be the first time that Hull has been represented in the top tier of English football.

*'''[[Liverpool F.C.]]''' was founded in 1892. It is based in Anfield stadium, although is expected to relocate to Stanley Park in 2011. The club has become the most successful club in English league history, winning eighteen League titles as well as five European cups. The current manager is Rafael Benitez.
:The Club's most bitter rivalries are with Everton, Manchester United and Chelsea.
The club was founded after a dispute between the owner of the Anfield Road Ground, John Houlding, and the team that was the tenant, Everton FC. Everton built and occupied their own ground, Goodison Park, leaving Houlding with an unproductive and vacant Anfield. Houlding began Liverpool F.C. to utilize his asset.The Clubs first ever manager was an Irshman, John Mckenna. McKenna brought in a lot of players to the club, many of them from Scotland. Under his supervision it was promoted twice: first from the [[Lancaster]] League to the Second division, and then from the second to first divisions. He also worked with Houlding to develope Anfield and expand it's capacity. The club won it's first League title in 1900-01.

*'''[[Manchester City F.C.]]''' is the smaller of two [[English Premier League]] teams in the city of [[Manchester]]. Usually lying lower in the Premier League than their [[Derby|derby]] rivals, [[Manchester United]], City is managed by Mark Hughes. The team plays at the City of Manchester Stadium, built as the main stadium for the 2002 [[Commonwealth Games]]. The stadium hosted the [[UEFA Cup]] Final 2008.

*'''[[Manchester United F.C.]]''' Manchester United play in red shirts, white shorts and black socks. They were the first English club to win the European Cup, in 1968, winning again in 1999 and 2008. The club joined the Football League in 1892 under the name Newton Heath. Their official nickname is the "Red Devils" and the club badge features a small black devil holding a trident. They are known to their fans either as Man U, Man United or just United. In 2005 the club was taken over by the [[America|American]] billionaire, Malcolm Glazer. After two seasons with little success by their standards they won the Barclays Premier League again in 2007 and 2008.The club is noted for the exeptionally cosmopolitan nature of it's support, regulary drawing large numbers of fans from all over the the [[United Kingdom]] and the [[Republic of Ireland]]. As a result it is consistently the most supported team in England.The Club maintains bitter rivalries with Manchester City, Liverpool Leeds United and Arsenal

*'''[[Middlesbrough F.C.]]''' ('Boro') is based in [[Middlesbrough]], in north-east [[England]]. The side was founded in 1876 by members of Middlesbrough [[Cricket]] Club<ref>http://www.mfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HistoryDetail/0,,1~51936,00.html</ref>. Between 1903 and 1995 its home ground was Ayresome Park but in 1995 it moved to the Riverside Stadium. Middlesbrough were winners of the League Cup in 2004.

*'''[[Newcastle United F.C.]]''' , founded in 1892 by the merger of Newcastle West End and Newcastle East End, plays at St James' Park in [[Newcastle upon Tyne]]. Their club colors are black and white stripes with black shorts. The current manager of Newcastle United is [[Kevin Keegan]]. Newcastle United are nicknamed 'the Magpies', or, more simply, 'Toon' (the local pronunciation of 'town'); its fans are the 'Toon Army'.

*'''[[Portsmouth F.C.]]''' is based in [[Portsmouth]], on the southern coast of [[England]]. Known colloquially as 'Pompey', the club is owned by [[Alexandre Guydamak]] and managed by [[Harry Redknapp]].

*'''[[Stoke City F.C.]]''', based in the Midlands city of [[Stoke on Trent]], were newly promoted to the Premier League in 2008. Stoke was one of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[Sunderland A.F.C.]]''' are based in the northeastern city of Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, where they play in the Stadium of Light. The club's nickname is The Black Cats, or the Mackems, and the club's crest depicts two black lions support a heraldic shield. The club strip comprises red and white striped shirts with black shorts and socks. The club was founded in [[1879]] and joined the Football League in 1890 (replacing Stoke City). They remained remaining continuously in the top division until 1958. Since then they have been promoted to and relegated from the the top flight several times and are one of the 2007-8 season's Premier League new boys. Sunderland were successful in their early years, being League Champions five times between 1892 and 1913, with the addition of a sixth title in 1936. They won the [[FA Cup]] in 1937 and then again in 1973, which has been their only notable honor since [[World War II]]. The club is currently managed by Roy Keane. [http://www.safc.com Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/sunderland Premier League - Sunderland]

*'''[[Tottenham Hotspur F.C.]]''' ('Spurs' to their supporters) are a north London team, [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]'s long-standing rival. They are based at White Hart Lane Stadium.

*'''[[West Bromwich Albion F.C.]]''', known as 'The Baggies', play at The Hawthorns. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[West Ham United F.C.]]'''<ref>http://www.whufc.com/</ref> ('The Hammers', colloquially) are a [[London]] team, managed by [[Alan Curbishly]], and with their home ground in [[Upton Park]].

*'''[[Wigan Athletic F.C.]]''' is based in the northwestern town of Wigan, Lancashire (now part of [[Greater Manchester]]). The club's nickname is ''The Latics''. The club was founded in 1932 after several unsuccessful attempts to run a soccer club in a town where Rugby League is the most popular sport. After playing in the minor leagues for many years, Wigan gained entry to the old Fourth Division of the Football League in 1978 and promoted to the Third Division in 1982. In 1993 they were relegated to the lower league and were bought in 1995 by David Whelan, an ambitious local millionaire who had made his fortune selling sportswear. Two years later, in 1997, they were promoted back to third-tier football and within six years had secured a further step up the second tier. It took only a further two years for them to complete a remarkable progression from fourth-tier to top-tier, when they were promoted to the Premier League in 2005. The club play at the JJB Stadium which they share with Rugby League club Wigan Warriors (also owned by Devid Whelan). The stadium was built in 1999 and named after Whelan's sportswear chain ''JJB Sports''. The club continues to struggle for support and its highest ever home attendance is 25,000 for visitors [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] in February 2006. After raising ticket prices in 2006 Wigan had to cut them in response to falling attendances and have kept them low at a time when almost all other Premier League clubs were making significant increases. After a poor 2006-7 season in which they just managed to avoid relegation, their manager Paul Jewell resigned and was replaced by Chris Hutchings. Hutchings was sacked after a poor start to the 2007-8 season. [http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/wigan-athletic Premier League - Wigan Athletic]

==Championship teams==

*'''Barnsley FC'''

*'''Birmingham City FC''' was founded in 1875 as Small Heath Alliance, they became Small Heath in 1888 and later Birmingham FC in 1905. They finally adopted the moniker Birmingham City FC in 1943. The club's home ground has been St. Andrew's since 1906. Although being the second largest city in England (after [[London]]) Birmingham City Football Club have known little success in the major competitions and have lived in the shadow of their neighbours and fierce rivals Aston Villa. The club's nickname is "The Blues" on account of the color of their team strip. Birmingham City was relegated from the Premier League to the Championship mat the end of the 2007-08 season.

*'''Blackpool FC'''

*'''Bristol City FC'''

*'''Burnley FC'''. One of the founder members of the League.

*'''Cardiff City FC'''

*'''Charlton Athletic FC'''

*'''Coventry City FC'''

*'''Derby County FC''' Their nickname is ''The Rams'', after the symbol for the county of [[Derbyshire]] and also the club. One of the founder members of the League. Their current home ground is Pride Park, but they previously played at the Baseball Ground. Derby County was relegated from the Premier League at the end of the 2007-08 season. [http://www.dcfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Official site]

*'''Doncaster Rovers FC'''

*'''Ipswich Town FC'''

*'''Norwich City FC'''

*'''Nottingham Forest FC'''

*'''Plymouth Argyle FC'''

*'''Preston North End FC''' One of the founder members of the League.

*'''Queens Park Rangers FC'''

*'''Reading FC''' are an [[England|English]] [[soccer|football]] [[club]] based in the southern town of [[Reading]], [[Berkshire]]. The club's nickname since 1970 is The Royals (Berkshire is known as the Royal County); formerly they were known as The Biscuitmen after the Huntley & Palmers [[cookie|biscuit]] factory. The club strip comprises royal-blue and white hooped shirts with royal-blue shorts and socks. The club was founded on [[Christmas]] Day 1871 and in 1920 joined the Third Division of the original Football League. Apart from brief excursions to the second and fourth tiers, Reading were generally a third-tier team until 2002 when the made the longer term move to second level competition. They were promoted to the Premier League in 2006 after running away with The Championship, but relegated to the Championship at the end of the 2007-08 season. The club play at the Madejski Stadium, built in 1998 and named after their multi-millionaire owner John Madejski who bought the club in 1990. Reading's worst ever defeat was by Preston North End in 1894, when they lost 18-0. Reading have registered their fans as an official (unpaid) member of their team squad, in recognition of the effect their support has for the team, and given the Number 13. The club is currently managed by Steve Coppell. [http://www.readingfc.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/reading Premier League - Reading]

*'''Sheffield United FC'''

*'''Sheffield Wednesday FC'''

*'''Southampton FC'''

*'''Swansea City AFC'''

*'''Watford FC'''

*'''Wolverhampton Wanderers FC''' One of the founder members of the League.

==League One teams==

*'''Brighton & Hove Albion FC'''

*'''Bristol Rovers FC'''

*'''Carlisle United FC'''

*'''Cheltenham Town FC'''

*'''Colchester United FC'''

*'''Crewe Alexandra FC'''

*'''Hartlepool United FC'''

*'''Hereford United FC'''

*'''Huddersfield Town FC'''

*'''Leeds United FC''', based in the northern city of [[Leeds]], play at Elland Road stadium. Their traditional strip is white shirts and shorts. Leeds has long been one of the strongest sides in England, but financial mismanagement of the club in the early years of this decade, reflected in sporting performance, has brought it to its current lowly situation

*'''Leicester City FC'''

*'''Leyton Orient FC'''

*'''Millwall FC'''

*'''MK Dons FC'''

*'''Northampton Town FC'''

*'''Oldham Athletic FC'''

*'''Peterborough United FC'''

*'''Scun<nowiki></nowiki>thorpe United FC'''

*'''Southend United FC'''

*'''Stockport County FC'''

*'''Swindon Town FC'''

*'''Tranmere Rovers FC'''

*'''Walsall FC'''

*'''Yeovil Town FC'''

==League Two teams==

==References==
<references/>

==Further information==
*The Football League: http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10794,00.html

[[Category:Soccer]]

Soccer teams in England

2009-01-19T00:28:06Z

HSpalding: /* Premier League teams */ Bolton was omitted.

The game of [[soccer|football]] in [[England]] - known as ''soccer'' in some parts of the world - is organised into four professional leagues at the apex of a pyramid of semi-professional and amateur leagues. There are 92 professional teams and innumerable semi-pro and amateur sides. The four professional leagues comprise the Premier League (20 teams), the Championship, League One and League Two (24 teams each). Below League Two, the Conference league provides a stepping-stone for semi-pro sides to gain promotion to the professional leagues.

==Premier League teams==

*'''[[Arsenal F.C.]]''' is based in north [[London]]. The team is managed by [[Arsene Wenger]]. Finishing fourth in the [[English Premier League]] in the 2006/7 season, the team features major international stars of football. Former star [[Thierry Henry]] has recently left the team after eight years of huge success, departing to [[Barcelona]] in the summer of 2007. In 2006 the team moved from their old stadium, ''Arsenal Stadium'', located in, and more commonly known as ''Highbury''. The team's new stadium is named after the [[Dubai]] airline and sponsor, [[Emirates Airlines|Emirates]].

*'''[[Aston Villa F.C.]]''' is based in [[Aston]], [[Birmingham]], in the English [[Midlands]]. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League. Currently coached by Martin O'Neill, a former player for [[Northern Ireland]], [[Nottingham Forest]], [[Norwich City]] and [[Manchester City F.C.|Manchester City]].They finished the 2006/7 season in 11th position in the [[English Premier League]].

*'''[[Blackburn Rovers F.C.]]''' is an [[England|English]] [[football]] team that play in the [[English Premier League|Premiership]] . The club hails from the town of [[Blackburn]] in [[Lancashire]]. Formed in 1875, Rovers were one of the 12 founding members of the Football League. They have won the league championship a total of 3 times and were 1994-5 Premiership champions, in addition they have won the F.A. Cup 6 times and the League Cup once. Blacburn's current manager is former Manchester United player Paul Ince. Their home stadium is Ewood Park.<ref>[http://www.rovers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Blacburn Rovers FC Homepage]</ref>

*'''[[Bolton Wanderers F.C.]]''', one of the 12 founder members of the Football League, play in the town of [[Bolton]], north-east of Manchester. Historically, they have played in either of the top two divisions of the League. They have won the F.A. Cup several times but have never been League champions.

*'''[[Chelsea F.C.]]''' play at Stamford Bridge, in west [[London]]. The club is owned by [[Russia]]n billionaire [[Roman Abramovich]] was managed by [[Avram Grant]] for most of the 2007-08 season. In 2007-08 the side finished second in the Premier League.

*'''[[Everton F.C.]]''' is based in [[Liverpool]]. Founded in 1878 as a church sports side they were became of the 12 founder members of the [[Football League]] in 1888. However, owing to a rent dispute in 1892 they left their home ground of [[Anfield]] and moved to a new site at [[Goodison Park]], where they have played ever since. There are plans under discussion to move outside the city of Liverpool and establish a new ground over a Tesco supermarket in nearby Knowsley. The club's nickname is ''The Toffees''; although there are several hypotheses about how the name arose it is likely that it derives from the black and white striped, toffee filled, candy known as an ''Everton Mint''. Everton's biggest rivals are [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] who were formed in 1892 to utilise the abandoned Anfield ground. Despite Everton's successes over the years they have been overshadowed by their illustrious neighbours who hold the records for the most top flight championships as well as European trophies won in the English game.

*'''[[Fulham F.C.]]''' is based in the [[London]] Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Their nickname is The Cottagers, after their home ground of Craven Cottage alongside the [[River Thames]], which can usually be seen during the Oxford and Cambridge boat-race. The club was founded in 1879 and are the oldest professional soccer team in London. The club strip comprises white shirts and socks with black shorts. Despite their long history they have never won any major honors. The club is currently owned by the Egyptian millionaire and owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed who took control in 1997.
*[http://www.fulhamfc.com Official site]
*[http://www.premierleague.com/page/fulham Premier League - Fulham]

*'''[[Hull City F.C.]]''', based in the east-coast port city of [[Hull]], were promoted to the Premier League in 2008. This will be the first time that Hull has been represented in the top tier of English football.

*'''[[Liverpool F.C.]]''' was founded in 1892. It is based in Anfield stadium, although is expected to relocate to Stanley Park in 2011. The club has become the most successful club in English league history, winning eighteen League titles as well as five European cups. The current manager is Rafael Benitez.
:The Club's most bitter rivalries are with Everton, Manchester United and Chelsea.
The club was founded after a dispute between the owner of the Anfield Road Ground, John Houlding, and the team that was the tenant, Everton FC. Everton built and occupied their own ground, Goodison Park, leaving Houlding with an unproductive and vacant Anfield. Houlding began Liverpool F.C. to utilize his asset.The Clubs first ever manager was an Irshman, John Mckenna. McKenna brought in a lot of players to the club, many of them from Scotland. Under his supervision it was promoted twice: first from the [[Lancaster]] League to the Second division, and then from the second to first divisions. He also worked with Houlding to develope Anfield and expand it's capacity. The club won it's first League title in 1900-01.

*'''[[Manchester City F.C.]]''' is the smaller of two [[English Premier League]] teams in the city of [[Manchester]]. Usually lying lower in the Premier League than their [[Derby|derby]] rivals, [[Manchester United]], City is managed by Mark Hughes. The team plays at the City of Manchester Stadium, built as the main stadium for the 2002 [[Commonwealth Games]]. The stadium hosted the [[UEFA Cup]] Final 2008.

*'''[[Manchester United F.C.]]''' Manchester United play in red shirts, white shorts and black socks. They were the first English club to win the European Cup, in 1968, winning again in 1999 and 2008. The club joined the Football League in 1892 under the name Newton Heath. Their official nickname is the "Red Devils" and the club badge features a small black devil holding a trident. They are known to their fans either as Man U, Man United or just United. In 2005 the club was taken over by the [[America|American]] billionaire, Malcolm Glazer. After two seasons with little success by their standards they won the Barclays Premier League again in 2007 and 2008.The club is noted for the exeptionally cosmopolitan nature of it's support, regulary drawing large numbers of fans from all over the the [[United Kingdom]] and the [[Republic of Ireland]]. As a result it is consistently the most supported team in England.The Club maintains bitter rivalries with Manchester City, Liverpool Leeds United and Arsenal

*'''[[Middlesbrough F.C.]]''' ('Boro') is based in [[Middlesbrough]], in north-east [[England]]. The side was founded in 1876 by members of Middlesbrough [[Cricket]] Club<ref>http://www.mfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HistoryDetail/0,,1~51936,00.html</ref>. Between 1903 and 1995 its home ground was Ayresome Park but in 1995 it moved to the Riverside Stadium. Middlesbrough were winners of the League Cup in 2004.

*'''[[Newcastle United F.C.]]''' , founded in 1892 by the merger of Newcastle West End and Newcastle East End, plays at St James' Park in [[Newcastle upon Tyne]]. Their club colors are black and white stripes with black shorts. The current manager of Newcastle United is [[Kevin Keegan]]. Newcastle United are nicknamed 'the Magpies', or, more simply, 'Toon' (the local pronunciation of 'town'); its fans are the 'Toon Army'.

*'''[[Portsmouth F.C.]]''' is based in [[Portsmouth]], on the southern coast of [[England]]. Known colloquially as 'Pompey', the club is owned by [[Alexandre Guydamak]] and managed by [[Harry Redknapp]].

*'''[[Stoke City F.C.]]''', based in the Midlands city of [[Stoke on Trent]], were newly promoted to the Premier League in 2008. Stoke was one of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[Sunderland A.F.C.]]''' are based in the northeastern city of Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, where they play in the Stadium of Light. The club's nickname is The Black Cats, or the Mackems, and the club's crest depicts two black lions support a heraldic shield. The club strip comprises red and white striped shirts with black shorts and socks. The club was founded in [[1879]] and joined the Football League in 1890 (replacing Stoke City). They remained remaining continuously in the top division until 1958. Since then they have been promoted to and relegated from the the top flight several times and are one of the 2007-8 season's Premier League new boys. Sunderland were successful in their early years, being League Champions five times between 1892 and 1913, with the addition of a sixth title in 1936. They won the [[FA Cup]] in 1937 and then again in 1973, which has been their only notable honor since [[World War II]]. The club is currently managed by Roy Keane. [http://www.safc.com Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/sunderland Premier League - Sunderland]

*'''[[Tottenham Hotspur F.C.]]''' ('Spurs' to their supporters) are a north London team, [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]'s long-standing rival. They are based at White Hart Lane Stadium.

*'''[[West Bromwich Albion F.C.]]''', known as 'The Baggies', play at The Hawthorns. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[West Ham United F.C.]]'''<ref>http://www.whufc.com/</ref> ('The Hammers', colloquially) are a [[London]] team, managed by [[Alan Curbishly]], and with their home ground in [[Upton Park]].

*'''[[Wigan Athletic F.C.]]''' is based in the northwestern town of Wigan, Lancashire (now part of [[Greater Manchester]]). The club's nickname is ''The Latics''. The club was founded in 1932 after several unsuccessful attempts to run a soccer club in a town where Rugby League is the most popular sport. After playing in the minor leagues for many years, Wigan gained entry to the old Fourth Division of the Football League in 1978 and promoted to the Third Division in 1982. In 1993 they were relegated to the lower league and were bought in 1995 by David Whelan, an ambitious local millionaire who had made his fortune selling sportswear. Two years later, in 1997, they were promoted back to third-tier football and within six years had secured a further step up the second tier. It took only a further two years for them to complete a remarkable progression from fourth-tier to top-tier, when they were promoted to the Premier League in 2005. The club play at the JJB Stadium which they share with Rugby League club Wigan Warriors (also owned by Devid Whelan). The stadium was built in 1999 and named after Whelan's sportswear chain ''JJB Sports''. The club continues to struggle for support and its highest ever home attendance is 25,000 for visitors [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] in February 2006. After raising ticket prices in 2006 Wigan had to cut them in response to falling attendances and have kept them low at a time when almost all other Premier League clubs were making significant increases. After a poor 2006-7 season in which they just managed to avoid relegation, their manager Paul Jewell resigned and was replaced by Chris Hutchings. Hutchings was sacked after a poor start to the 2007-8 season. [http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/wigan-athletic Premier League - Wigan Athletic]

==Championship teams==

*'''Barnsley FC'''

*'''Birmingham City FC''' was founded in 1875 as Small Heath Alliance, they became Small Heath in 1888 and later Birmingham FC in 1905. They finally adopted the moniker Birmingham City FC in 1943. The club's home ground has been St. Andrew's since 1906. Although being the second largest city in England (after [[London]]) Birmingham City Football Club have known little success in the major competitions and have lived in the shadow of their neighbours and fierce rivals Aston Villa. The club's nickname is "The Blues" on account of the color of their team strip. Birmingham City was relegated from the Premier League to the Championship mat the end of the 2007-08 season.

*'''Blackpool FC'''

*'''Bristol City FC'''

*'''Burnley FC'''

*'''Cardiff City FC'''

*'''Charlton Athletic FC'''

*'''Coventry City FC'''

*'''Derby County FC''' Their nickname is ''The Rams'', after the symbol for the county of [[Derbyshire]] and also the club. Their current home ground is Pride Park, but they previously played at the Baseball Ground. Derby County was relegated from the Premier League at the end of the 2007-08 season. [http://www.dcfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Official site]

*'''Doncaster Rovers FC'''

*'''Ipswich Town FC'''

*'''Norwich City FC'''

*'''Nottingham Forest FC'''

*'''Plymouth Argyle FC'''

*'''Preston North End FC'''

*'''Queens Park Rangers FC'''

*'''Reading FC''' are an [[England|English]] [[soccer|football]] [[club]] based in the southern town of [[Reading]], [[Berkshire]]. The club's nickname since 1970 is The Royals (Berkshire is known as the Royal County); formerly they were known as The Biscuitmen after the Huntley & Palmers [[cookie|biscuit]] factory. The club strip comprises royal-blue and white hooped shirts with royal-blue shorts and socks. The club was founded on [[Christmas]] Day 1871 and in 1920 joined the Third Division of the original Football League. Apart from brief excursions to the second and fourth tiers, Reading were generally a third-tier team until 2002 when the made the longer term move to second level competition. They were promoted to the Premier League in 2006 after running away with The Championship, but relegated to the Championship at the end of the 2007-08 season. The club play at the Madejski Stadium, built in 1998 and named after their multi-millionaire owner John Madejski who bought the club in 1990. Reading's worst ever defeat was by Preston North End in 1894, when they lost 18-0. Reading have registered their fans as an official (unpaid) member of their team squad, in recognition of the effect their support has for the team, and given the Number 13. The club is currently managed by Steve Coppell. [http://www.readingfc.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/reading Premier League - Reading]

*'''Sheffield United FC'''

*'''Sheffield Wednesday FC'''

*'''Southampton FC'''

*'''Swansea City AFC'''

*'''Watford FC'''

*'''Wolverhampton Wanderers FC'''

==League One teams==

*'''Brighton & Hove Albion FC'''

*'''Bristol Rovers FC'''

*'''Carlisle United FC'''

*'''Cheltenham Town FC'''

*'''Colchester United FC'''

*'''Crewe Alexandra FC'''

*'''Hartlepool United FC'''

*'''Hereford United FC'''

*'''Huddersfield Town FC'''

*'''Leeds United FC''', based in the northern city of [[Leeds]], play at Elland Road stadium. Their traditional strip is white shirts and shorts. Leeds has long been one of the strongest sides in England, but financial mismanagement of the club in the early years of this decade, reflected in sporting performance, has brought it to its current lowly situation

*'''Leicester City FC'''

*'''Leyton Orient FC'''

*'''Millwall FC'''

*'''MK Dons FC'''

*'''Northampton Town FC'''

*'''Oldham Athletic FC'''

*'''Peterborough United FC'''

*'''Scun<nowiki></nowiki>thorpe United FC'''

*'''Southend United FC'''

*'''Stockport County FC'''

*'''Swindon Town FC'''

*'''Tranmere Rovers FC'''

*'''Walsall FC'''

*'''Yeovil Town FC'''

==League Two teams==

==References==
<references/>

==Further information==
*The Football League: http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10794,00.html

[[Category:Soccer]]

Soccer teams in England

2009-01-19T00:24:26Z

HSpalding: /* Premier League teams */ Man City no longer owned by Shinawatra

The game of [[soccer|football]] in [[England]] - known as ''soccer'' in some parts of the world - is organised into four professional leagues at the apex of a pyramid of semi-professional and amateur leagues. There are 92 professional teams and innumerable semi-pro and amateur sides. The four professional leagues comprise the Premier League (20 teams), the Championship, League One and League Two (24 teams each). Below League Two, the Conference league provides a stepping-stone for semi-pro sides to gain promotion to the professional leagues.

==Premier League teams==

*'''[[Arsenal F.C.]]''' is based in north [[London]]. The team is managed by [[Arsene Wenger]]. Finishing fourth in the [[English Premier League]] in the 2006/7 season, the team features major international stars of football. Former star [[Thierry Henry]] has recently left the team after eight years of huge success, departing to [[Barcelona]] in the summer of 2007. In 2006 the team moved from their old stadium, ''Arsenal Stadium'', located in, and more commonly known as ''Highbury''. The team's new stadium is named after the [[Dubai]] airline and sponsor, [[Emirates Airlines|Emirates]].

*'''[[Aston Villa F.C.]]''' is based in [[Aston]], [[Birmingham]], in the English [[Midlands]]. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League. Currently coached by Martin O'Neill, a former player for [[Northern Ireland]], [[Nottingham Forest]], [[Norwich City]] and [[Manchester City F.C.|Manchester City]].They finished the 2006/7 season in 11th position in the [[English Premier League]].

*'''[[Blackburn Rovers F.C.]]''' is an [[England|English]] [[football]] team that play in the [[English Premier League|Premiership]] . The club hails from the town of [[Blackburn]] in [[Lancashire]]. Formed in 1875, Rovers were one of the 12 founding members of the Football League. They have won the league championship a total of 3 times and were 1994-5 Premiership champions, in addition they have won the F.A. Cup 6 times and the League Cup once. Blacburn's current manager is former Manchester United player Paul Ince. Their home stadium is Ewood Park.<ref>[http://www.rovers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Blacburn Rovers FC Homepage]</ref>

*'''[[Chelsea F.C.]]''' play at Stamford Bridge, in west [[London]]. The club is owned by [[Russia]]n billionaire [[Roman Abramovich]] was managed by [[Avram Grant]] for most of the 2007-08 season. In 2007-08 the side finished second in the Premier League.

*'''[[Everton F.C.]]''' is based in [[Liverpool]]. Founded in 1878 as a church sports side they were became of the 12 founder members of the [[Football League]] in 1888. However, owing to a rent dispute in 1892 they left their home ground of [[Anfield]] and moved to a new site at [[Goodison Park]], where they have played ever since. There are plans under discussion to move outside the city of Liverpool and establish a new ground over a Tesco supermarket in nearby Knowsley. The club's nickname is ''The Toffees''; although there are several hypotheses about how the name arose it is likely that it derives from the black and white striped, toffee filled, candy known as an ''Everton Mint''. Everton's biggest rivals are [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] who were formed in 1892 to utilise the abandoned Anfield ground. Despite Everton's successes over the years they have been overshadowed by their illustrious neighbours who hold the records for the most top flight championships as well as European trophies won in the English game.

*'''[[Fulham F.C.]]''' is based in the [[London]] Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Their nickname is The Cottagers, after their home ground of Craven Cottage alongside the [[River Thames]], which can usually be seen during the Oxford and Cambridge boat-race. The club was founded in 1879 and are the oldest professional soccer team in London. The club strip comprises white shirts and socks with black shorts. Despite their long history they have never won any major honors. The club is currently owned by the Egyptian millionaire and owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed who took control in 1997.
*[http://www.fulhamfc.com Official site]
*[http://www.premierleague.com/page/fulham Premier League - Fulham]

*'''[[Hull City F.C.]]''', based in the east-coast port city of [[Hull]], were promoted to the Premier League in 2008. This will be the first time that Hull has been represented in the top tier of English football.

*'''[[Liverpool F.C.]]''' was founded in 1892. It is based in Anfield stadium, although is expected to relocate to Stanley Park in 2011. The club has become the most successful club in English league history, winning eighteen League titles as well as five European cups. The current manager is Rafael Benitez.
:The Club's most bitter rivalries are with Everton, Manchester United and Chelsea.
The club was founded after a dispute between the owner of the Anfield Road Ground, John Houlding, and the team that was the tenant, Everton FC. Everton built and occupied their own ground, Goodison Park, leaving Houlding with an unproductive and vacant Anfield. Houlding began Liverpool F.C. to utilize his asset.The Clubs first ever manager was an Irshman, John Mckenna. McKenna brought in a lot of players to the club, many of them from Scotland. Under his supervision it was promoted twice: first from the [[Lancaster]] League to the Second division, and then from the second to first divisions. He also worked with Houlding to develope Anfield and expand it's capacity. The club won it's first League title in 1900-01.

*'''[[Manchester City F.C.]]''' is the smaller of two [[English Premier League]] teams in the city of [[Manchester]]. Usually lying lower in the Premier League than their [[Derby|derby]] rivals, [[Manchester United]], City is managed by Mark Hughes. The team plays at the City of Manchester Stadium, built as the main stadium for the 2002 [[Commonwealth Games]]. The stadium hosted the [[UEFA Cup]] Final 2008.

*'''[[Manchester United F.C.]]''' Manchester United play in red shirts, white shorts and black socks. They were the first English club to win the European Cup, in 1968, winning again in 1999 and 2008. The club joined the Football League in 1892 under the name Newton Heath. Their official nickname is the "Red Devils" and the club badge features a small black devil holding a trident. They are known to their fans either as Man U, Man United or just United. In 2005 the club was taken over by the [[America|American]] billionaire, Malcolm Glazer. After two seasons with little success by their standards they won the Barclays Premier League again in 2007 and 2008.The club is noted for the exeptionally cosmopolitan nature of it's support, regulary drawing large numbers of fans from all over the the [[United Kingdom]] and the [[Republic of Ireland]]. As a result it is consistently the most supported team in England.The Club maintains bitter rivalries with Manchester City, Liverpool Leeds United and Arsenal

*'''[[Middlesbrough F.C.]]''' ('Boro') is based in [[Middlesbrough]], in north-east [[England]]. The side was founded in 1876 by members of Middlesbrough [[Cricket]] Club<ref>http://www.mfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HistoryDetail/0,,1~51936,00.html</ref>. Between 1903 and 1995 its home ground was Ayresome Park but in 1995 it moved to the Riverside Stadium. Middlesbrough were winners of the League Cup in 2004.

*'''[[Newcastle United F.C.]]''' , founded in 1892 by the merger of Newcastle West End and Newcastle East End, plays at St James' Park in [[Newcastle upon Tyne]]. Their club colors are black and white stripes with black shorts. The current manager of Newcastle United is [[Kevin Keegan]]. Newcastle United are nicknamed 'the Magpies', or, more simply, 'Toon' (the local pronunciation of 'town'); its fans are the 'Toon Army'.

*'''[[Portsmouth F.C.]]''' is based in [[Portsmouth]], on the southern coast of [[England]]. Known colloquially as 'Pompey', the club is owned by [[Alexandre Guydamak]] and managed by [[Harry Redknapp]].

*'''[[Stoke City F.C.]]''', based in the Midlands city of [[Stoke on Trent]], were newly promoted to the Premier League in 2008. Stoke was one of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[Sunderland A.F.C.]]''' are based in the northeastern city of Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, where they play in the Stadium of Light. The club's nickname is The Black Cats, or the Mackems, and the club's crest depicts two black lions support a heraldic shield. The club strip comprises red and white striped shirts with black shorts and socks. The club was founded in [[1879]] and joined the Football League in 1890 (replacing Stoke City). They remained remaining continuously in the top division until 1958. Since then they have been promoted to and relegated from the the top flight several times and are one of the 2007-8 season's Premier League new boys. Sunderland were successful in their early years, being League Champions five times between 1892 and 1913, with the addition of a sixth title in 1936. They won the [[FA Cup]] in 1937 and then again in 1973, which has been their only notable honor since [[World War II]]. The club is currently managed by Roy Keane. [http://www.safc.com Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/sunderland Premier League - Sunderland]

*'''[[Tottenham Hotspur F.C.]]''' ('Spurs' to their supporters) are a north London team, [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]'s long-standing rival. They are based at White Hart Lane Stadium.

*'''[[West Bromwich Albion F.C.]]''', known as 'The Baggies', play at The Hawthorns. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[West Ham United F.C.]]'''<ref>http://www.whufc.com/</ref> ('The Hammers', colloquially) are a [[London]] team, managed by [[Alan Curbishly]], and with their home ground in [[Upton Park]].

*'''[[Wigan Athletic F.C.]]''' is based in the northwestern town of Wigan, Lancashire (now part of [[Greater Manchester]]). The club's nickname is ''The Latics''. The club was founded in 1932 after several unsuccessful attempts to run a soccer club in a town where Rugby League is the most popular sport. After playing in the minor leagues for many years, Wigan gained entry to the old Fourth Division of the Football League in 1978 and promoted to the Third Division in 1982. In 1993 they were relegated to the lower league and were bought in 1995 by David Whelan, an ambitious local millionaire who had made his fortune selling sportswear. Two years later, in 1997, they were promoted back to third-tier football and within six years had secured a further step up the second tier. It took only a further two years for them to complete a remarkable progression from fourth-tier to top-tier, when they were promoted to the Premier League in 2005. The club play at the JJB Stadium which they share with Rugby League club Wigan Warriors (also owned by Devid Whelan). The stadium was built in 1999 and named after Whelan's sportswear chain ''JJB Sports''. The club continues to struggle for support and its highest ever home attendance is 25,000 for visitors [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] in February 2006. After raising ticket prices in 2006 Wigan had to cut them in response to falling attendances and have kept them low at a time when almost all other Premier League clubs were making significant increases. After a poor 2006-7 season in which they just managed to avoid relegation, their manager Paul Jewell resigned and was replaced by Chris Hutchings. Hutchings was sacked after a poor start to the 2007-8 season. [http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/wigan-athletic Premier League - Wigan Athletic]

==Championship teams==

*'''Barnsley FC'''

*'''Birmingham City FC''' was founded in 1875 as Small Heath Alliance, they became Small Heath in 1888 and later Birmingham FC in 1905. They finally adopted the moniker Birmingham City FC in 1943. The club's home ground has been St. Andrew's since 1906. Although being the second largest city in England (after [[London]]) Birmingham City Football Club have known little success in the major competitions and have lived in the shadow of their neighbours and fierce rivals Aston Villa. The club's nickname is "The Blues" on account of the color of their team strip. Birmingham City was relegated from the Premier League to the Championship mat the end of the 2007-08 season.

*'''Blackpool FC'''

*'''Bristol City FC'''

*'''Burnley FC'''

*'''Cardiff City FC'''

*'''Charlton Athletic FC'''

*'''Coventry City FC'''

*'''Derby County FC''' Their nickname is ''The Rams'', after the symbol for the county of [[Derbyshire]] and also the club. Their current home ground is Pride Park, but they previously played at the Baseball Ground. Derby County was relegated from the Premier League at the end of the 2007-08 season. [http://www.dcfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Official site]

*'''Doncaster Rovers FC'''

*'''Ipswich Town FC'''

*'''Norwich City FC'''

*'''Nottingham Forest FC'''

*'''Plymouth Argyle FC'''

*'''Preston North End FC'''

*'''Queens Park Rangers FC'''

*'''Reading FC''' are an [[England|English]] [[soccer|football]] [[club]] based in the southern town of [[Reading]], [[Berkshire]]. The club's nickname since 1970 is The Royals (Berkshire is known as the Royal County); formerly they were known as The Biscuitmen after the Huntley & Palmers [[cookie|biscuit]] factory. The club strip comprises royal-blue and white hooped shirts with royal-blue shorts and socks. The club was founded on [[Christmas]] Day 1871 and in 1920 joined the Third Division of the original Football League. Apart from brief excursions to the second and fourth tiers, Reading were generally a third-tier team until 2002 when the made the longer term move to second level competition. They were promoted to the Premier League in 2006 after running away with The Championship, but relegated to the Championship at the end of the 2007-08 season. The club play at the Madejski Stadium, built in 1998 and named after their multi-millionaire owner John Madejski who bought the club in 1990. Reading's worst ever defeat was by Preston North End in 1894, when they lost 18-0. Reading have registered their fans as an official (unpaid) member of their team squad, in recognition of the effect their support has for the team, and given the Number 13. The club is currently managed by Steve Coppell. [http://www.readingfc.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/reading Premier League - Reading]

*'''Sheffield United FC'''

*'''Sheffield Wednesday FC'''

*'''Southampton FC'''

*'''Swansea City AFC'''

*'''Watford FC'''

*'''Wolverhampton Wanderers FC'''

==League One teams==

*'''Brighton & Hove Albion FC'''

*'''Bristol Rovers FC'''

*'''Carlisle United FC'''

*'''Cheltenham Town FC'''

*'''Colchester United FC'''

*'''Crewe Alexandra FC'''

*'''Hartlepool United FC'''

*'''Hereford United FC'''

*'''Huddersfield Town FC'''

*'''Leeds United FC''', based in the northern city of [[Leeds]], play at Elland Road stadium. Their traditional strip is white shirts and shorts. Leeds has long been one of the strongest sides in England, but financial mismanagement of the club in the early years of this decade, reflected in sporting performance, has brought it to its current lowly situation

*'''Leicester City FC'''

*'''Leyton Orient FC'''

*'''Millwall FC'''

*'''MK Dons FC'''

*'''Northampton Town FC'''

*'''Oldham Athletic FC'''

*'''Peterborough United FC'''

*'''Scun<nowiki></nowiki>thorpe United FC'''

*'''Southend United FC'''

*'''Stockport County FC'''

*'''Swindon Town FC'''

*'''Tranmere Rovers FC'''

*'''Walsall FC'''

*'''Yeovil Town FC'''

==League Two teams==

==References==
<references/>

==Further information==
*The Football League: http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10794,00.html

[[Category:Soccer]]

Soccer teams in England

2009-01-19T00:24:04Z

HSpalding: /* Premier League teams */ tense

The game of [[soccer|football]] in [[England]] - known as ''soccer'' in some parts of the world - is organised into four professional leagues at the apex of a pyramid of semi-professional and amateur leagues. There are 92 professional teams and innumerable semi-pro and amateur sides. The four professional leagues comprise the Premier League (20 teams), the Championship, League One and League Two (24 teams each). Below League Two, the Conference league provides a stepping-stone for semi-pro sides to gain promotion to the professional leagues.

==Premier League teams==

*'''[[Arsenal F.C.]]''' is based in north [[London]]. The team is managed by [[Arsene Wenger]]. Finishing fourth in the [[English Premier League]] in the 2006/7 season, the team features major international stars of football. Former star [[Thierry Henry]] has recently left the team after eight years of huge success, departing to [[Barcelona]] in the summer of 2007. In 2006 the team moved from their old stadium, ''Arsenal Stadium'', located in, and more commonly known as ''Highbury''. The team's new stadium is named after the [[Dubai]] airline and sponsor, [[Emirates Airlines|Emirates]].

*'''[[Aston Villa F.C.]]''' is based in [[Aston]], [[Birmingham]], in the English [[Midlands]]. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League. Currently coached by Martin O'Neill, a former player for [[Northern Ireland]], [[Nottingham Forest]], [[Norwich City]] and [[Manchester City F.C.|Manchester City]].They finished the 2006/7 season in 11th position in the [[English Premier League]].

*'''[[Blackburn Rovers F.C.]]''' is an [[England|English]] [[football]] team that play in the [[English Premier League|Premiership]] . The club hails from the town of [[Blackburn]] in [[Lancashire]]. Formed in 1875, Rovers were one of the 12 founding members of the Football League. They have won the league championship a total of 3 times and were 1994-5 Premiership champions, in addition they have won the F.A. Cup 6 times and the League Cup once. Blacburn's current manager is former Manchester United player Paul Ince. Their home stadium is Ewood Park.<ref>[http://www.rovers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Blacburn Rovers FC Homepage]</ref>

*'''[[Chelsea F.C.]]''' play at Stamford Bridge, in west [[London]]. The club is owned by [[Russia]]n billionaire [[Roman Abramovich]] was managed by [[Avram Grant]] for most of the 2007-08 season. In 2007-08 the side finished second in the Premier League.

*'''[[Everton F.C.]]''' is based in [[Liverpool]]. Founded in 1878 as a church sports side they were became of the 12 founder members of the [[Football League]] in 1888. However, owing to a rent dispute in 1892 they left their home ground of [[Anfield]] and moved to a new site at [[Goodison Park]], where they have played ever since. There are plans under discussion to move outside the city of Liverpool and establish a new ground over a Tesco supermarket in nearby Knowsley. The club's nickname is ''The Toffees''; although there are several hypotheses about how the name arose it is likely that it derives from the black and white striped, toffee filled, candy known as an ''Everton Mint''. Everton's biggest rivals are [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] who were formed in 1892 to utilise the abandoned Anfield ground. Despite Everton's successes over the years they have been overshadowed by their illustrious neighbours who hold the records for the most top flight championships as well as European trophies won in the English game.

*'''[[Fulham F.C.]]''' is based in the [[London]] Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Their nickname is The Cottagers, after their home ground of Craven Cottage alongside the [[River Thames]], which can usually be seen during the Oxford and Cambridge boat-race. The club was founded in 1879 and are the oldest professional soccer team in London. The club strip comprises white shirts and socks with black shorts. Despite their long history they have never won any major honors. The club is currently owned by the Egyptian millionaire and owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed who took control in 1997.
*[http://www.fulhamfc.com Official site]
*[http://www.premierleague.com/page/fulham Premier League - Fulham]

*'''[[Hull City F.C.]]''', based in the east-coast port city of [[Hull]], were promoted to the Premier League in 2008. This will be the first time that Hull has been represented in the top tier of English football.

*'''[[Liverpool F.C.]]''' was founded in 1892. It is based in Anfield stadium, although is expected to relocate to Stanley Park in 2011. The club has become the most successful club in English league history, winning eighteen League titles as well as five European cups. The current manager is Rafael Benitez.
:The Club's most bitter rivalries are with Everton, Manchester United and Chelsea.
The club was founded after a dispute between the owner of the Anfield Road Ground, John Houlding, and the team that was the tenant, Everton FC. Everton built and occupied their own ground, Goodison Park, leaving Houlding with an unproductive and vacant Anfield. Houlding began Liverpool F.C. to utilize his asset.The Clubs first ever manager was an Irshman, John Mckenna. McKenna brought in a lot of players to the club, many of them from Scotland. Under his supervision it was promoted twice: first from the [[Lancaster]] League to the Second division, and then from the second to first divisions. He also worked with Houlding to develope Anfield and expand it's capacity. The club won it's first League title in 1900-01.

*'''[[Manchester City F.C.]]''' is the smaller of two [[English Premier League]] teams in the city of [[Manchester]]. Usually lying lower in the Premier League than their [[Derby|derby]] rivals, [[Manchester United]], City is managed by Mark Hughes. The team plays at the City of Manchester Stadium, built as the main stadium for the 2002 [[Commonwealth Games]]. The stadium hosted the [[UEFA Cup]] Final 2008. Currently, the club is owned by the former Prime Minister of [[Thailand]], [[Thaksin Shinawatra]].

*'''[[Manchester United F.C.]]''' Manchester United play in red shirts, white shorts and black socks. They were the first English club to win the European Cup, in 1968, winning again in 1999 and 2008. The club joined the Football League in 1892 under the name Newton Heath. Their official nickname is the "Red Devils" and the club badge features a small black devil holding a trident. They are known to their fans either as Man U, Man United or just United. In 2005 the club was taken over by the [[America|American]] billionaire, Malcolm Glazer. After two seasons with little success by their standards they won the Barclays Premier League again in 2007 and 2008.The club is noted for the exeptionally cosmopolitan nature of it's support, regulary drawing large numbers of fans from all over the the [[United Kingdom]] and the [[Republic of Ireland]]. As a result it is consistently the most supported team in England.The Club maintains bitter rivalries with Manchester City, Liverpool Leeds United and Arsenal

*'''[[Middlesbrough F.C.]]''' ('Boro') is based in [[Middlesbrough]], in north-east [[England]]. The side was founded in 1876 by members of Middlesbrough [[Cricket]] Club<ref>http://www.mfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HistoryDetail/0,,1~51936,00.html</ref>. Between 1903 and 1995 its home ground was Ayresome Park but in 1995 it moved to the Riverside Stadium. Middlesbrough were winners of the League Cup in 2004.

*'''[[Newcastle United F.C.]]''' , founded in 1892 by the merger of Newcastle West End and Newcastle East End, plays at St James' Park in [[Newcastle upon Tyne]]. Their club colors are black and white stripes with black shorts. The current manager of Newcastle United is [[Kevin Keegan]]. Newcastle United are nicknamed 'the Magpies', or, more simply, 'Toon' (the local pronunciation of 'town'); its fans are the 'Toon Army'.

*'''[[Portsmouth F.C.]]''' is based in [[Portsmouth]], on the southern coast of [[England]]. Known colloquially as 'Pompey', the club is owned by [[Alexandre Guydamak]] and managed by [[Harry Redknapp]].

*'''[[Stoke City F.C.]]''', based in the Midlands city of [[Stoke on Trent]], were newly promoted to the Premier League in 2008. Stoke was one of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[Sunderland A.F.C.]]''' are based in the northeastern city of Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, where they play in the Stadium of Light. The club's nickname is The Black Cats, or the Mackems, and the club's crest depicts two black lions support a heraldic shield. The club strip comprises red and white striped shirts with black shorts and socks. The club was founded in [[1879]] and joined the Football League in 1890 (replacing Stoke City). They remained remaining continuously in the top division until 1958. Since then they have been promoted to and relegated from the the top flight several times and are one of the 2007-8 season's Premier League new boys. Sunderland were successful in their early years, being League Champions five times between 1892 and 1913, with the addition of a sixth title in 1936. They won the [[FA Cup]] in 1937 and then again in 1973, which has been their only notable honor since [[World War II]]. The club is currently managed by Roy Keane. [http://www.safc.com Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/sunderland Premier League - Sunderland]

*'''[[Tottenham Hotspur F.C.]]''' ('Spurs' to their supporters) are a north London team, [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]'s long-standing rival. They are based at White Hart Lane Stadium.

*'''[[West Bromwich Albion F.C.]]''', known as 'The Baggies', play at The Hawthorns. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[West Ham United F.C.]]'''<ref>http://www.whufc.com/</ref> ('The Hammers', colloquially) are a [[London]] team, managed by [[Alan Curbishly]], and with their home ground in [[Upton Park]].

*'''[[Wigan Athletic F.C.]]''' is based in the northwestern town of Wigan, Lancashire (now part of [[Greater Manchester]]). The club's nickname is ''The Latics''. The club was founded in 1932 after several unsuccessful attempts to run a soccer club in a town where Rugby League is the most popular sport. After playing in the minor leagues for many years, Wigan gained entry to the old Fourth Division of the Football League in 1978 and promoted to the Third Division in 1982. In 1993 they were relegated to the lower league and were bought in 1995 by David Whelan, an ambitious local millionaire who had made his fortune selling sportswear. Two years later, in 1997, they were promoted back to third-tier football and within six years had secured a further step up the second tier. It took only a further two years for them to complete a remarkable progression from fourth-tier to top-tier, when they were promoted to the Premier League in 2005. The club play at the JJB Stadium which they share with Rugby League club Wigan Warriors (also owned by Devid Whelan). The stadium was built in 1999 and named after Whelan's sportswear chain ''JJB Sports''. The club continues to struggle for support and its highest ever home attendance is 25,000 for visitors [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] in February 2006. After raising ticket prices in 2006 Wigan had to cut them in response to falling attendances and have kept them low at a time when almost all other Premier League clubs were making significant increases. After a poor 2006-7 season in which they just managed to avoid relegation, their manager Paul Jewell resigned and was replaced by Chris Hutchings. Hutchings was sacked after a poor start to the 2007-8 season. [http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/wigan-athletic Premier League - Wigan Athletic]

==Championship teams==

*'''Barnsley FC'''

*'''Birmingham City FC''' was founded in 1875 as Small Heath Alliance, they became Small Heath in 1888 and later Birmingham FC in 1905. They finally adopted the moniker Birmingham City FC in 1943. The club's home ground has been St. Andrew's since 1906. Although being the second largest city in England (after [[London]]) Birmingham City Football Club have known little success in the major competitions and have lived in the shadow of their neighbours and fierce rivals Aston Villa. The club's nickname is "The Blues" on account of the color of their team strip. Birmingham City was relegated from the Premier League to the Championship mat the end of the 2007-08 season.

*'''Blackpool FC'''

*'''Bristol City FC'''

*'''Burnley FC'''

*'''Cardiff City FC'''

*'''Charlton Athletic FC'''

*'''Coventry City FC'''

*'''Derby County FC''' Their nickname is ''The Rams'', after the symbol for the county of [[Derbyshire]] and also the club. Their current home ground is Pride Park, but they previously played at the Baseball Ground. Derby County was relegated from the Premier League at the end of the 2007-08 season. [http://www.dcfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Official site]

*'''Doncaster Rovers FC'''

*'''Ipswich Town FC'''

*'''Norwich City FC'''

*'''Nottingham Forest FC'''

*'''Plymouth Argyle FC'''

*'''Preston North End FC'''

*'''Queens Park Rangers FC'''

*'''Reading FC''' are an [[England|English]] [[soccer|football]] [[club]] based in the southern town of [[Reading]], [[Berkshire]]. The club's nickname since 1970 is The Royals (Berkshire is known as the Royal County); formerly they were known as The Biscuitmen after the Huntley & Palmers [[cookie|biscuit]] factory. The club strip comprises royal-blue and white hooped shirts with royal-blue shorts and socks. The club was founded on [[Christmas]] Day 1871 and in 1920 joined the Third Division of the original Football League. Apart from brief excursions to the second and fourth tiers, Reading were generally a third-tier team until 2002 when the made the longer term move to second level competition. They were promoted to the Premier League in 2006 after running away with The Championship, but relegated to the Championship at the end of the 2007-08 season. The club play at the Madejski Stadium, built in 1998 and named after their multi-millionaire owner John Madejski who bought the club in 1990. Reading's worst ever defeat was by Preston North End in 1894, when they lost 18-0. Reading have registered their fans as an official (unpaid) member of their team squad, in recognition of the effect their support has for the team, and given the Number 13. The club is currently managed by Steve Coppell. [http://www.readingfc.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/reading Premier League - Reading]

*'''Sheffield United FC'''

*'''Sheffield Wednesday FC'''

*'''Southampton FC'''

*'''Swansea City AFC'''

*'''Watford FC'''

*'''Wolverhampton Wanderers FC'''

==League One teams==

*'''Brighton & Hove Albion FC'''

*'''Bristol Rovers FC'''

*'''Carlisle United FC'''

*'''Cheltenham Town FC'''

*'''Colchester United FC'''

*'''Crewe Alexandra FC'''

*'''Hartlepool United FC'''

*'''Hereford United FC'''

*'''Huddersfield Town FC'''

*'''Leeds United FC''', based in the northern city of [[Leeds]], play at Elland Road stadium. Their traditional strip is white shirts and shorts. Leeds has long been one of the strongest sides in England, but financial mismanagement of the club in the early years of this decade, reflected in sporting performance, has brought it to its current lowly situation

*'''Leicester City FC'''

*'''Leyton Orient FC'''

*'''Millwall FC'''

*'''MK Dons FC'''

*'''Northampton Town FC'''

*'''Oldham Athletic FC'''

*'''Peterborough United FC'''

*'''Scun<nowiki></nowiki>thorpe United FC'''

*'''Southend United FC'''

*'''Stockport County FC'''

*'''Swindon Town FC'''

*'''Tranmere Rovers FC'''

*'''Walsall FC'''

*'''Yeovil Town FC'''

==League Two teams==

==References==
<references/>

==Further information==
*The Football League: http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10794,00.html

[[Category:Soccer]]

Soccer teams in England

2009-01-19T00:23:22Z

HSpalding: /* Premier League teams */ Founder members (NB 12 teams, not 16)

The game of [[soccer|football]] in [[England]] - known as ''soccer'' in some parts of the world - is organised into four professional leagues at the apex of a pyramid of semi-professional and amateur leagues. There are 92 professional teams and innumerable semi-pro and amateur sides. The four professional leagues comprise the Premier League (20 teams), the Championship, League One and League Two (24 teams each). Below League Two, the Conference league provides a stepping-stone for semi-pro sides to gain promotion to the professional leagues.

==Premier League teams==

*'''[[Arsenal F.C.]]''' is based in north [[London]]. The team is managed by [[Arsene Wenger]]. Finishing fourth in the [[English Premier League]] in the 2006/7 season, the team features major international stars of football. Former star [[Thierry Henry]] has recently left the team after eight years of huge success, departing to [[Barcelona]] in the summer of 2007. In 2006 the team moved from their old stadium, ''Arsenal Stadium'', located in, and more commonly known as ''Highbury''. The team's new stadium is named after the [[Dubai]] airline and sponsor, [[Emirates Airlines|Emirates]].

*'''[[Aston Villa F.C.]]''' is based in [[Aston]], [[Birmingham]], in the English [[Midlands]]. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League. Currently coached by Martin O'Neill, a former player for [[Northern Ireland]], [[Nottingham Forest]], [[Norwich City]] and [[Manchester City F.C.|Manchester City]].They finished the 2006/7 season in 11th position in the [[English Premier League]].

*'''[[Blackburn Rovers F.C.]]''' is an [[England|English]] [[football]] team that play in the [[English Premier League|Premiership]] . The club hails from the town of [[Blackburn]] in [[Lancashire]]. Formed in 1875, Rovers were one of the 12 founding members of the Football League. They have won the league championship a total of 3 times and were 1994-5 Premiership champions, in addition they have won the F.A. Cup 6 times and the League Cup once. Blacburn's current manager is former Manchester United player Paul Ince. Their home stadium is Ewood Park.<ref>[http://www.rovers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Blacburn Rovers FC Homepage]</ref>

*'''[[Chelsea F.C.]]''' play at Stamford Bridge, in west [[London]]. The club is owned by [[Russia]]n billionaire [[Roman Abramovich]] was managed by [[Avram Grant]] for most of the 2007-08 season. In 2007-08 the side finished second in the Premier League.

*'''[[Everton F.C.]]''' is based in [[Liverpool]]. Founded in 1878 as a church sports side they were became of the 12 founder members of the [[Football League]] in 1888. However, owing to a rent dispute in 1892 they left their home ground of [[Anfield]] and moved to a new site at [[Goodison Park]], where they have played ever since. There are plans under discussion to move outside the city of Liverpool and establish a new ground over a Tesco supermarket in nearby Knowsley. The club's nickname is ''The Toffees''; although there are several hypotheses about how the name arose it is likely that it derives from the black and white striped, toffee filled, candy known as an ''Everton Mint''. Everton's biggest rivals are [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] who were formed in 1892 to utilise the abandoned Anfield ground. Despite Everton's successes over the years they have been overshadowed by their illustrious neighbours who hold the records for the most top flight championships as well as European trophies won in the English game.

*'''[[Fulham F.C.]]''' is based in the [[London]] Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Their nickname is The Cottagers, after their home ground of Craven Cottage alongside the [[River Thames]], which can usually be seen during the Oxford and Cambridge boat-race. The club was founded in 1879 and are the oldest professional soccer team in London. The club strip comprises white shirts and socks with black shorts. Despite their long history they have never won any major honors. The club is currently owned by the Egyptian millionaire and owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed who took control in 1997.
*[http://www.fulhamfc.com Official site]
*[http://www.premierleague.com/page/fulham Premier League - Fulham]

*'''[[Hull City F.C.]]''', based in the east-coast port city of [[Hull]], were promoted to the Premier League in 2008. This will be the first time that Hull has been represented in the top tier of English football.

*'''[[Liverpool F.C.]]''' was founded in 1892. It is based in Anfield stadium, although is expected to relocate to Stanley Park in 2011. The club has become the most successful club in English league history, winning eighteen League titles as well as five European cups. The current manager is Rafael Benitez.
:The Club's most bitter rivalries are with Everton, Manchester United and Chelsea.
The club was founded after a dispute between the owner of the Anfield Road Ground, John Houlding, and the team that was the tenant, Everton FC. Everton built and occupied their own ground, Goodison Park, leaving Houlding with an unproductive and vacant Anfield. Houlding began Liverpool F.C. to utilize his asset.The Clubs first ever manager was an Irshman, John Mckenna. McKenna brought in a lot of players to the club, many of them from Scotland. Under his supervision it was promoted twice: first from the [[Lancaster]] League to the Second division, and then from the second to first divisions. He also worked with Houlding to develope Anfield and expand it's capacity. The club won it's first League title in 1900-01.

*'''[[Manchester City F.C.]]''' is the smaller of two [[English Premier League]] teams in the city of [[Manchester]]. Usually lying lower in the Premier League than their [[Derby|derby]] rivals, [[Manchester United]], City is managed by Mark Hughes. The team plays at the City of Manchester Stadium, built as the main stadium for the 2002 [[Commonwealth Games]]. The stadium will hosted the [[UEFA Cup]] Final 2008. Currently, the club is owned by the former Prime Minister of [[Thailand]], [[Thaksin Shinawatra]].

*'''[[Manchester United F.C.]]''' Manchester United play in red shirts, white shorts and black socks. They were the first English club to win the European Cup, in 1968, winning again in 1999 and 2008. The club joined the Football League in 1892 under the name Newton Heath. Their official nickname is the "Red Devils" and the club badge features a small black devil holding a trident. They are known to their fans either as Man U, Man United or just United. In 2005 the club was taken over by the [[America|American]] billionaire, Malcolm Glazer. After two seasons with little success by their standards they won the Barclays Premier League again in 2007 and 2008.The club is noted for the exeptionally cosmopolitan nature of it's support, regulary drawing large numbers of fans from all over the the [[United Kingdom]] and the [[Republic of Ireland]]. As a result it is consistently the most supported team in England.The Club maintains bitter rivalries with Manchester City, Liverpool Leeds United and Arsenal

*'''[[Middlesbrough F.C.]]''' ('Boro') is based in [[Middlesbrough]], in north-east [[England]]. The side was founded in 1876 by members of Middlesbrough [[Cricket]] Club<ref>http://www.mfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HistoryDetail/0,,1~51936,00.html</ref>. Between 1903 and 1995 its home ground was Ayresome Park but in 1995 it moved to the Riverside Stadium. Middlesbrough were winners of the League Cup in 2004.

*'''[[Newcastle United F.C.]]''' , founded in 1892 by the merger of Newcastle West End and Newcastle East End, plays at St James' Park in [[Newcastle upon Tyne]]. Their club colors are black and white stripes with black shorts. The current manager of Newcastle United is [[Kevin Keegan]]. Newcastle United are nicknamed 'the Magpies', or, more simply, 'Toon' (the local pronunciation of 'town'); its fans are the 'Toon Army'.

*'''[[Portsmouth F.C.]]''' is based in [[Portsmouth]], on the southern coast of [[England]]. Known colloquially as 'Pompey', the club is owned by [[Alexandre Guydamak]] and managed by [[Harry Redknapp]].

*'''[[Stoke City F.C.]]''', based in the Midlands city of [[Stoke on Trent]], were newly promoted to the Premier League in 2008. Stoke was one of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[Sunderland A.F.C.]]''' are based in the northeastern city of Sunderland, Tyne and Wear, where they play in the Stadium of Light. The club's nickname is The Black Cats, or the Mackems, and the club's crest depicts two black lions support a heraldic shield. The club strip comprises red and white striped shirts with black shorts and socks. The club was founded in [[1879]] and joined the Football League in 1890 (replacing Stoke City). They remained remaining continuously in the top division until 1958. Since then they have been promoted to and relegated from the the top flight several times and are one of the 2007-8 season's Premier League new boys. Sunderland were successful in their early years, being League Champions five times between 1892 and 1913, with the addition of a sixth title in 1936. They won the [[FA Cup]] in 1937 and then again in 1973, which has been their only notable honor since [[World War II]]. The club is currently managed by Roy Keane. [http://www.safc.com Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/sunderland Premier League - Sunderland]

*'''[[Tottenham Hotspur F.C.]]''' ('Spurs' to their supporters) are a north London team, [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]'s long-standing rival. They are based at White Hart Lane Stadium.

*'''[[West Bromwich Albion F.C.]]''', known as 'The Baggies', play at The Hawthorns. One of the 12 founder members of the Football League.

*'''[[West Ham United F.C.]]'''<ref>http://www.whufc.com/</ref> ('The Hammers', colloquially) are a [[London]] team, managed by [[Alan Curbishly]], and with their home ground in [[Upton Park]].

*'''[[Wigan Athletic F.C.]]''' is based in the northwestern town of Wigan, Lancashire (now part of [[Greater Manchester]]). The club's nickname is ''The Latics''. The club was founded in 1932 after several unsuccessful attempts to run a soccer club in a town where Rugby League is the most popular sport. After playing in the minor leagues for many years, Wigan gained entry to the old Fourth Division of the Football League in 1978 and promoted to the Third Division in 1982. In 1993 they were relegated to the lower league and were bought in 1995 by David Whelan, an ambitious local millionaire who had made his fortune selling sportswear. Two years later, in 1997, they were promoted back to third-tier football and within six years had secured a further step up the second tier. It took only a further two years for them to complete a remarkable progression from fourth-tier to top-tier, when they were promoted to the Premier League in 2005. The club play at the JJB Stadium which they share with Rugby League club Wigan Warriors (also owned by Devid Whelan). The stadium was built in 1999 and named after Whelan's sportswear chain ''JJB Sports''. The club continues to struggle for support and its highest ever home attendance is 25,000 for visitors [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] in February 2006. After raising ticket prices in 2006 Wigan had to cut them in response to falling attendances and have kept them low at a time when almost all other Premier League clubs were making significant increases. After a poor 2006-7 season in which they just managed to avoid relegation, their manager Paul Jewell resigned and was replaced by Chris Hutchings. Hutchings was sacked after a poor start to the 2007-8 season. [http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/wigan-athletic Premier League - Wigan Athletic]

==Championship teams==

*'''Barnsley FC'''

*'''Birmingham City FC''' was founded in 1875 as Small Heath Alliance, they became Small Heath in 1888 and later Birmingham FC in 1905. They finally adopted the moniker Birmingham City FC in 1943. The club's home ground has been St. Andrew's since 1906. Although being the second largest city in England (after [[London]]) Birmingham City Football Club have known little success in the major competitions and have lived in the shadow of their neighbours and fierce rivals Aston Villa. The club's nickname is "The Blues" on account of the color of their team strip. Birmingham City was relegated from the Premier League to the Championship mat the end of the 2007-08 season.

*'''Blackpool FC'''

*'''Bristol City FC'''

*'''Burnley FC'''

*'''Cardiff City FC'''

*'''Charlton Athletic FC'''

*'''Coventry City FC'''

*'''Derby County FC''' Their nickname is ''The Rams'', after the symbol for the county of [[Derbyshire]] and also the club. Their current home ground is Pride Park, but they previously played at the Baseball Ground. Derby County was relegated from the Premier League at the end of the 2007-08 season. [http://www.dcfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/ Official site]

*'''Doncaster Rovers FC'''

*'''Ipswich Town FC'''

*'''Norwich City FC'''

*'''Nottingham Forest FC'''

*'''Plymouth Argyle FC'''

*'''Preston North End FC'''

*'''Queens Park Rangers FC'''

*'''Reading FC''' are an [[England|English]] [[soccer|football]] [[club]] based in the southern town of [[Reading]], [[Berkshire]]. The club's nickname since 1970 is The Royals (Berkshire is known as the Royal County); formerly they were known as The Biscuitmen after the Huntley & Palmers [[cookie|biscuit]] factory. The club strip comprises royal-blue and white hooped shirts with royal-blue shorts and socks. The club was founded on [[Christmas]] Day 1871 and in 1920 joined the Third Division of the original Football League. Apart from brief excursions to the second and fourth tiers, Reading were generally a third-tier team until 2002 when the made the longer term move to second level competition. They were promoted to the Premier League in 2006 after running away with The Championship, but relegated to the Championship at the end of the 2007-08 season. The club play at the Madejski Stadium, built in 1998 and named after their multi-millionaire owner John Madejski who bought the club in 1990. Reading's worst ever defeat was by Preston North End in 1894, when they lost 18-0. Reading have registered their fans as an official (unpaid) member of their team squad, in recognition of the effect their support has for the team, and given the Number 13. The club is currently managed by Steve Coppell. [http://www.readingfc.co.uk Official site] [http://www.premierleague.com/page/reading Premier League - Reading]

*'''Sheffield United FC'''

*'''Sheffield Wednesday FC'''

*'''Southampton FC'''

*'''Swansea City AFC'''

*'''Watford FC'''

*'''Wolverhampton Wanderers FC'''

==League One teams==

*'''Brighton & Hove Albion FC'''

*'''Bristol Rovers FC'''

*'''Carlisle United FC'''

*'''Cheltenham Town FC'''

*'''Colchester United FC'''

*'''Crewe Alexandra FC'''

*'''Hartlepool United FC'''

*'''Hereford United FC'''

*'''Huddersfield Town FC'''

*'''Leeds United FC''', based in the northern city of [[Leeds]], play at Elland Road stadium. Their traditional strip is white shirts and shorts. Leeds has long been one of the strongest sides in England, but financial mismanagement of the club in the early years of this decade, reflected in sporting performance, has brought it to its current lowly situation

*'''Leicester City FC'''

*'''Leyton Orient FC'''

*'''Millwall FC'''

*'''MK Dons FC'''

*'''Northampton Town FC'''

*'''Oldham Athletic FC'''

*'''Peterborough United FC'''

*'''Scun<nowiki></nowiki>thorpe United FC'''

*'''Southend United FC'''

*'''Stockport County FC'''

*'''Swindon Town FC'''

*'''Tranmere Rovers FC'''

*'''Walsall FC'''

*'''Yeovil Town FC'''

==League Two teams==

==References==
<references/>

==Further information==
*The Football League: http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10794,00.html

[[Category:Soccer]]

Aston Villa F.C.

2009-01-19T00:21:01Z

HSpalding: "Not won any titles"???!!!

[[Image:Aston Villa FC.png |thumb|300px|Logo]]
'''Aston Villa F.C.''' is a [[British]] [[soccer]] club playing in Aston, [[Birmingham]]. Formed in 1874,<ref>http://www.avfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/TimelineDetail/0,,10265~1096594,00.html</ref> Villa was one of the 12 founding members of the Football League. The team currently plays in the [[English Premier League]] and is one of the most successful clubs in English football, winning the League, F.A. Cup and League Cup several times and the European Cup once. The current manager is Martin O' Neill.

==Roster==
===Goalkeepers===
*1 [[Brad Friedel]]
*13 Stuart Taylor
*22 [[Bradley Guzan]]

===Defenders===
*2 Luke Young
*3 Wilfred Bouma
*5 Martin Laursen
*15 Curtis Davies
*16 Zat Knight
*21 Nicky Shorey
*24 Carlos Cuellar
*29 Stephen O'Halloran
*46 Barry Bannon
*47 Ciaran Clark
*48 Nathan Baker

===Midfielders===
*4 Steve Sidwell
*6 Gareth Barry
*7 Ashley Young
*8 James Milner
*17 Moustapha Salifou
*19 Stiliyan Petrov
*20 Nigel Reo-Coker
*26 Craig Gardner
*27 Isaiah Osbourne
*49 Chris Herd
*51 Shane Lowry
*Zoltan Steibler

===Strikers===
*9 Marlon Harewood
*10 John Carew
*11 Gabriel Agbonlahor
*14 Nathan Delfouneso

==Honors==

'''League Champions - 7''' : 1893-1894, 1895-1896, 1896-1897, 1898-1899, 1899-1900, 1909-1910, 1980-1981

'''Football Association Cup Winners - 7''' : 1887, 1895, 1897, 1905, 1913, 1920, 1957

'''League Cup Winners - 5''' : 1961, 1975, 1977, 1994, 1996

'''European Cup Winners - 1''' : 1982

'''European Super Cup Winners - 1''' : 1983

'''Inter-Toto CupWinners - 1''' : 2001

==References==
<References/>

{{nb sl english premier}}
[[Category:Premier League Teams]]
[[Category:Soccer]]

Conservapedia talk:Lenski dialog

2009-01-08T23:13:30Z

HSpalding: /* Lead author won't answer simple, basic questions */ Rontgen

[http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_talk:Lenski_dialog/archive1 Archive 1]

The discussion below concerns the letters and response set forth at [[Conservapedia:Lenski dialog]]. See also [[Flaws in Lenski Study]].

== Reply to comments in archive ==

: The comments above by defenders of withholding data have been unsatisfactory, to say the least.

: [[Lenski]] says in his published paper: "Z.D.B. and R.E.L. [Lenski] analyzed data"[http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/2008,%20PNAS,%20Blount%20et%20al.pdf]

: So where are all the data [[Lenski]] said he analyzed?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:27, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

::As clearly stated in Professor [[Lenski]]'s second response:

::: ''"Finally, let me now turn to our data. As I said before, the relevant methods and data about the [[evolution]] of the citrate-using bacteria are in our paper. In three places in our paper, we did say 'data not shown', which is common in scientific papers owing to limitations in page length, especially for secondary or minor points. None of the places where we made such references concern the existence of the citrate-using bacteria; they concern only certain secondary properties of those bacteria. We will gladly post those additional data on my website." ''

::If the additional data is not on his website by now, I'm sure it will be soon. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 07:45, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

::: If "the relevant ... data ... are in our paper," as set forth in the above quote of Lenski, then he would not have much data. So don't pretend the data is too voluminous to turn over. The paper is only 8 pages long!

::: In fact, the graphs in the paper suggest to a reader that there is underlying data having greater resolution than a graph can provide, and yet those data have not been disclosed for public scrutiny.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:24, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: The resolution of the graphs are more than sufficient to communicate the results. If the figures didn't provide sufficient clarity for their purpose the authors would have also provided tables. For example, in figure 1 it's clear the culture shifted its growth pattern. In figure 2, one can see that the Cit+ cultures reach a higher density in the media, as indicated by the higher ODs. To a microbiologist, those results indicate that the Cit+ cells can utilize more of the nutrients in the media (in this case, citrate). --[[User:Argon|Argon]] 21:08, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: I'd like to chime in here and give some professional perspective. I am a molecular biologist -- if I asked him to, Prof. Lenski would send me a sample from his bacterial stocks (I have a -80 freezer and know how to work with E. coli). Let's assume for a minute that, like you, I strongly suspected the results of the paper (I do not, but that doesn't matter for this exercise). If this were the case, two of the routes I could take would be to re-analyze Prof. Lenski's data or replicate his experiments. In some cases, data and their analysis are complex, and re-analysis can yield different results than those the original author reached. This is the case for a large-scale association study, for example -- there are tons of data to analyze, and their analysis is not straightforward. In Prof. Lenski's case, however, the data are extremely simple, consisting primarily of 1) OD readings to measure fitness, and 2) colony counts.

:::: OD readings, or optical density readings, are obtained by pipetting a sample of cultured bacteria into a cuvette, sticking that cuvette into a machine, and writing down the number that pops up on a screen. Somewhere in a grad student's notebook (or in his/her computer) is a list of these numbers, and their average and range were presented in the PNAS paper at each generation in Figure 1 (similar data are presented in Figure 2 and Figure 5). So, in other words, the data you see in the paper *are all of the data* save for a second grade computation...which was probably performed by Excel. If you don't believe the data in the paper, then what do you expect to gain from seeing these "raw" data? There is so little to gain that I seriously doubt that PNAS would take such a request seriously.

:::: The meat of the paper, in Table 1, is a presentation of colony counts. These are obtained by another grad student picking up a bacterial culture plate, counting the number of colonies on it, and moving on to the next plate. Again, the raw data are what you see in the paper. What exactly are you expecting here, photographic images of all of the tens of thousands of plates they examined? That is just not done. Why would we go to that level of self-surveillance to please a small, vocal minority of people claiming fraud? The public's interest is not served by spending inordinate amounts of effort and money on this level of surveillance. If the science is correct, his experiment will be replicated.

:::: In sum, as others have tried to explain, there really isn't any more complex data for you to reasonably request. A slightly expanded list of numbers from what's in the paper won't get you anything if you already don't believe the data. And the scientific culture doesn't even come close to expecting photographic evidence of bacterial plates. Your best bet, if you really don't believe the results, is to get an outsider to try and replicate and/or confirm some portion of his results. The easy route would be to ask for a cit+ strain and its ancestor and see if they are indeed cit- and cit+. You could even sequence them to check if the cit+ strain is indeed an ancestor of the cit- strain, but while this would be a perfectly normal approach in a molecular biology lab with impressive resources, the entire concept of evolution is anathema to you, so I can't think of a reasonable criterion you would use to determine ancestry. If you wanted to go the hard route, you could obtain the ancestral strain and grow and measure them for years as Prof. Lenski's lab did.

:::: I hope this has been somewhat instructive for you in explaining why a request for "further data" will not bear fruit beyond the small amount of data that Prof. Lenski says he will make available. And why it is not reasonable to expect further data. I am more than happy to respond to questions or requests for clarification if you would like. -- [[User:Princetonian|Princetonian]] 23:50, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::: For starters, most of the opposition to releasing the data has been the false claim that the data are too voluminous to release. You are making the opposite claim, one which is more consistent with Lenski's paper: there is very little important data beyond what is in the 8-page paper. But that doesn't withstand scrutiny either.

::::: The "meat" of the paper is this, and at a minimum the data should be released for it (pp. 2-3 from paper):

:::::: Evolution of Cit Function in Population Ara-3. The LTEE populations are transferred daily into fresh medium, and the turbidity of each is checked visually at that time. [DATA ON THESE OBSERVATIONS?] Owing to the low concentration of glucose in DM25 medium [DATA?], the cultures are only slightly turbid when transferred. Occasional contaminants that grow on citrate have been seen over the 20 years of this experiment. [DATA?] These contaminated cultures reach much higher turbidity owing to the high concentration of citrate in the medium, which allows the contaminants to reach high density. (When contamination occurs, the affected population is restarted from the latest frozen sample.) [DATA FOR WHEN THAT OCCURRED?] After 33,127 generations, one population, designated Ara-3, displayed significantly elevated turbidity that continued to rise for several days (Fig. 1).[HIGHER RESOLUTION DATA UNDERLYING FIGURE?] A number [DATA?] of Cit clones were isolated from the population and checked for phenotypic markers characteristic of the ancestral E. coli strain used to start the LTEE: all [DATA?] were Ara, T5-sensitive, and T6-resistant, as expected (2) [DATA ABOUT THESE AND OTHER CHARACTERISTICS?]. DNA sequencing also showed [DATA?] that Cit clones have the same mutations in the pykF and nadR genes as do clones from earlier generations of the Ara-3 population, and each of these mutations distinguishes this population from all [DATA?] of the others (30). Therefore, the Cit variant arose within the LTEE and is not a contaminant [THIS CONCLUSION NEEDS TO BE CHECKED BY INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF THE ACTUAL DATA, WHICH I DOUBT OCCURRED IN THE BRIEF PEER REVIEW OF THIS PAPER]

::::: Note, by the way, how the opponents of data disclosure seem to have no idea about what data Lenski actually has, which raises further questions about the merits of the conclusion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:15, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::: I know some people here have claimed that the data are too voluminous to release...I didn't know what they were talking about, which is one reason I chimed in. Anyway, here are point by point responses to each of these cases. Turbidity checking: these data are either in a grad student's notebook somewhere, or were not recorded. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they weren't recorded due to the nature of the data (it's just a visual check of turbidity, and wouldn't be reported in a paper). Low concentration of glucose in DM25: this is a factual statement about DM25 media, not an observation. Contaminants: Same comment as the turbidity checking. Either there's a one-liner in a notebook somewhere ("Flask 25 contaminated, re-grew from stock") or nothing at all, since it's tangential to the experiment. Figure 1: As I already mentioned, the data in Figure 1 are actually comprehensive -- three data points went into each plotted point. They report the range (which give you a max and a min) and they also show you the average, which allows you to impute the third data point. Number of Cit clones, and the following comments except the last: these data are probably recorded in a lab notebook somewhere, since they're rather not tangential to the experiment. In addition, I'm sure they have a frozen stock of each cit+ bacterial clone that they checked, so this is something that could be easily independently verified. Cit+ is not a contaminant: no this would not be a part of the peer review...peer reviewers are not out to find fraud in general. Especially in the inaugural paper of somebody just nominated into the national academy. And the data underlying contamination checking are also extremely simple -- you plate the bacteria on an Ara+ plate and check sensitivity by eye, for example -- so there is no need to verify methodology as long as you trust the source.

:::::: You're basically asking for the lab notebooks of all of the grad students involved in the experiment over the 20 years. The data in these notebooks is going to be, in general, very simple (e.g., the statement "colony grew on Ara-, is a contaminant") since as I mentioned, there is no photographic evidence of this. Additionally, while biotech companies generally have document retention policies as required by law, no such policies exist at the academic level (although specific institutions may have them). A very few labs are run like well-oiled machines -- lab notebooks are kept up-to-date and thorough, and every observation is recorded. This is the ideal, but almost no labs actually achieve it, since most labs are working at 125% speed in an effort to get experiments finished and published.

:::::: If you're really interested in monitoring the quotidien details of these experiments, that falls outside of the scope of what PNAS and professional standards would require Lenski to release, I believe. You're not asking to re-analyze data so much as to oversee the entire experiment for fraud. This would require giving you all of Lenski's graduate students' lab notebooks for an indefinite period of time, which would be quite disruptive, and as I said probably wouldn't even yield the level of data you seem to want. In this case your best bet is to contact MSU and ask for a comprehensive review of Lenski's lab and his notes for this experiment. But without any evidence to point to said fraud, they will certainly deny your request for oversight. Your expectations here just aren't in line with professional standards in the field in the absence of any evidence of fraud. -- [[User:Princetonian|Princetonian]] 10:49, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::: You've confirmed that the strident claims by Lenski defenders here that the data are too voluminous to release were nonsense. We'll see how many of them now admit they were wrong. Let's not hold our breaths!

::::::: But your opposite approach above, which essentially suggests there are no data that can be released, doesn't withstand scrutiny either. Figure 1 is plainly a low-resolution representation of underlying data that must exist. The greater resolution should be released. Similarly, there should be data underlying the essential assertion that a particular sample was not contaminated, while others had been. For example, the paper asserts that "[a] number of Cit clones were isolated." How many were isolated? If those data exist, then it should be released along with the other data. If those data do not exist, then that is even more telling.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:34, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Regarding the questions highlighted by [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] to which [[User:Princetonian|Princetonian]] also responded: Many of the techniques questioned are standard procedures that a trained microbiologist would understand. Let's take this apart by question:
:::::'''''...the turbidity of each is checked visually at that time. [DATA ON THESE OBSERVATIONS?]'''''
:::::This is qualitative observation. Every microbiologist does this when they pull their cultures out of the incubator. The evaluation an experimenter asks: Can you see through the test tube or not? Is the culture denser or lighter than the last time you looked? The reported observations are the data.

:::::: Show us the data. Are you suggesting that no record was kept of these observations??? I hope that's not what you mean. But say so if that is your view.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::I described how the observation was performed. How the observations are recorded is up to the lab or technician culturing the cells.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...Owing to the low concentration of glucose in DM25 medium [DATA?]'''''
:::::A reference to the description of the media is provided in the paper and is included on Lenksi's web pages. I linked to that page recently in another comment. It is general knowledge among microbiologists that nutrient limited cultures will reach a peak density that depends on the concentration of the limiting nutrient.

:::::: Again, show us the data. What was the concentration of glucose and, more importantly, did it ever change?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Consider rereading the paper and pull out references provided. It's there.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...Occasional contaminants that grow on citrate have been seen over the 20 years of this experiment. [DATA?]'''''
:::::Observation. Either they saw contaminated cultures or not.

:::::: No kidding. The point, obviously, is to disclose the data of what they saw. How many is "occasional"? Show us the records supporting that claim, so we can assess the frequency of contamination compared to alleged evolution. At a minimum, it appears that contamination was significantly more frequent than the alleged evolution.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Contamination is a problem every microbiology lab understands and encounters. What matters and what is particularly relevant to this experiment is the means of detecting and controlling for it. They outline the steps for detecting contaminating and restarting the experiment from uncontaminated stocks in their papers and web pages.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...(When contamination occurs, the affected population is restarted from the latest frozen sample.) [DATA FOR WHEN THAT OCCURRED?]'''''
:::::Not relevant for the results. It's just the researchers describing how they restarted the experiment whenever they suspected a contamination. It does not alter the experimental outcome.

:::::: It is relevant, at a minimum for reasons stated in my above response. Also, did the restarting ever result in repeats of the observed contamination?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::They controlled for contamination. If their previous stock was contaminated they would likely return to ones before that last stock. Clearly, they would not want to work with contaminated stocks as it would damage the experiment.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...one population, designated Ara-3, displayed significantly elevated turbidity that continued to rise for several days (Fig. 1).[HIGHER RESOLUTION DATA UNDERLYING FIGURE?]'''''
:::::Higher resolution is not really necessary. The graph provides a ''qualitative'' visualization that starkly reveals that the cultures underwent a change that allowed them to grow to a significantly higher density than previously. They report in the text the actual generation were the change occurred and that seems to line up with the transition in the figure (take out a ruler, if necessary). Their subsequent experiments bracketed the strains from points before, during and after the obvious population transition.

:::::: Your answer here is absurd. Higher resolution in science is always helpful. The precise rate of change among the population would reveal much about what was really occurring. The data must exist to generate the graph. Disclose it rather than obscuring it with a low-resolution graph.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::If one reads the paper, one finds that weakly Cit+ clones arise earlier than the visible transition. Reading the paper one would see that they analyze the emergence times: ''Cit+ clones could be readily isolated from the frozen sample of population Ara-3 taken at generation 33,000. To estimate the time of origin of the Cit+ trait, we screened 1,280 clones randomly chosen from generations 30,000, 30,500, 31,000, 31,500, 32,000, 32,500, and 33,000 for the capacity to produce a positive reaction on Christensen’s citrate agar, which provides a sensitive means to detect even weakly citrate-using cells.'' As for the visible transition: ''After ~33,127 generations, one population, designated Ara-3, displayed significantly elevated turbidity that continued to rise for several days''. Note also that they performed 'replay' experiments (which took up the rest of the paper) to specifically analyze the frequency and times when Cit+ strains could be generated. The last half of the paper contains the work that provides information about the possible nature of the mutations and addresses your question.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...clones were isolated from the population and checked for phenotypic markers characteristic of the ancestral E. coli strain used to start the LTEE: all [DATA?] were Ara, T5-sensitive, and T6-resistant, as expected (2) [DATA ABOUT THESE AND OTHER CHARACTERISTICS'''''
:::::Derived from observation. The phenotypic markers are described elsewhere and the means of testing them are well known by professional microbiologists. The origin of the strain and its markers can be determined by following the references provided. The strain is also referenced on Lenski's pages here: https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/strainsource.html Other information about how they tested markers can also be found starting from here (provided by Lenski): https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/

:::::: Disclose the data so that independent reviewers can assess how reliable the claims are here. The methodology may be "well known" but only disclosure of the data will demonstrate whether the methodology was applied in a flawless manner.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Those are all based on visual observation. Reporting the observation *is* reporting data. Lenksi's group provides information how they performed the tests so that any professional microbiologist would be able to follow the work. The way for someone to test the methodology is to repeat the tests on the strains themselves. Recall that Lenski did say that the strains would be made available to labs. So, for anyone interested in seeing for themselves that "the methodology was applied in a flawless manner", I suggest they go find a friendly microbiologist to request and perform the tests for them.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...DNA sequencing also showed [DATA?] that Cit clones have the same mutations in the pykF and nadR genes as do clones from earlier generations'''''
:::::Report of observation. They sequenced the specified genes and found no difference in base-by-base comparisons. There is no need in this paper to print all sequences side by side as they're the same. The words, "no difference" transmits the same information in less space as showing all the identical sequences side-by-side with the original, previously released sequence. See also the next lines.

:::::: No one suggested that the DNA be published "in this paper," but rather that the data be made publicly available for independent review and verification.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Again, the sequences are available. If someone wants to confirm that the sequencing was done correctly they can request the strains from Lenski and repeat the sequencing. The protocols are published.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...each of these mutations distinguishes this population from all [DATA?] of the others (30).'''''
:::::See reference (30) from Lenksi's paper. It describes how the genes in those populations were originally sequenced. The ancestral sequences were uploaded into GeneBank, a publically accessible sequence repository, and the identifying mutations were presented in the supplemental table published on the PNAS web site along with the original paper.

:::::: That's spelled "publicly", not "publically", and again disclosure of the data concerning the mutations is necessary to verify the claims made.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::If someone wants to confirm that the sequencing was done correctly they can request the strains from Lenski and repeat the sequencing. The protocols are published and Lenski has stated he would make the strains available.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...Therefore, the Cit variant arose within the LTEE and is not a contaminant [THIS CONCLUSION NEEDS TO BE CHECKED BY INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF THE ACTUAL DATA, WHICH I DOUBT OCCURRED IN THE BRIEF PEER REVIEW OF THIS PAPER]'''''
:::::The authors reported the actual data in a manner that is readily understood and accepted by microbiologists. The data and analysis is not terribly complex or confusing for someone familiar with the field (and quite a few who aren't expert microbiologists). Andy, I've seen little requested that isn't standard practice & generally understood among microbiologists or not already available if one follows the references provided in the paper.

:::::: You're right that the "data and analysis" are "not terribly complex." Which is why the odd withholding the data merely serves to heighten skepticism towards the claims made.
:::::::YMMV. I've encountered no one on the web or elsewhere and trained in microbiology who thinks the data is being 'oddly' withheld. Most of us manage to locate the references and other sources provided.

:::::: The bottom line is that some think that Lenski's claims must be accepted on faith rather than independent verification of the data. That is not science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Just a word about reading the professional, scientific literature: Scientific papers are by the nature of their medium, mostly brief, to the point and highly condensed. Rather than repeat all the background information that others in the field may already know and encouraged to limit the length by journals with page limits, authors provide references to other papers that contain the previously published information. They also use terms that are well-defined within their profession to shorten the text further. One wouldn't expect a layman with no experience in biology to easily digest the paper. To point is not to obfuscate but to simmer the paper down to essentials that others in the field can readily understand. With some effort to become familiar with the underlying & established techniques & science, determined, non-experts can eventually pick up this information. I'd respectfully suggest to anyone *seriously* interested in the paper but not comfortable with the technical details, that they may want to find a knowledgeable biologist willing to explain. At least they should read the entire paper and the additional papers referenced within. Consider asking DI's research institute or Behe for help with understanding the techniques behind the work.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:11, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::: Your sermon is misplaced. Taxpayers paid for Lenski's study, and any real scientist should reject the inexplicable withholding the data underlying its conclusions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::YMMV but in my view, it's like going to a librarian and demanding they provide something made from paper: Books? Magazines? Newspapers? What type of books? What subjects? My opinion is that if someone: doesn't know what one wants, doesn't appear to understand the report, demands to see 'the data' without appearing to know what they're asking for in the first place or how to process the information, I'm not sure how any experimental scientist would comply with that request. Furthermore, I'd find it odd that the requests persist despite the fact that the paper was indeed published in compliance with establish profession standards and the strains were made available (in compliance with journal and university research policy). Again, if someone thinks the work was done incorrectly they can get a lab to request the strains and try to repeat many of the observations. That is why the materials and methods sections exist in papers: To allow others to repeat and confirm the work.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Unfortunately, there are essentially no real scientists left. Peer review is almost never done with the amount of scrutiny Aschlafly discusses. Reviewers, even for journals with long submission-to-publication times, do not request the original data. When original data are requested, it is by researchers who want to continue the work and write publications of their own on the subject. There just aren't incentives to do thorough reviews.

Aschlafly, I think you're right that review should have been more stringent. I think you're wrong, however, to conclude that an exception was made here. Its true that review time was very short in this case. The total number of man-hours devoted to '''any''' review, however, is seldom more than 40.

What does "real scientists" mean? If it means practicing academics today, it's sadly wrong. Most [[professor values|professors]] are self-centered, and would see true peer review as impinging on their personal freedom. "Who has time," they think, "to transcribe lab notebooks? I've got more papers to publish!" I bet the majority would even resist your request to Lenski. This liberal attitude towards truth is what leads to claptrap like [[Particle/wave duality theory]] and [[COBE|the theory of cosmic microwave background radiation]]. [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 09:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

: With respect to your comments on peer review, note that there were merely 14 days between the time the Lenski manuscript was sent for review and the time it was confirmed for publication. I doubt even 10 good hours of real peer review were devoted to the Lenski manuscript, let alone the 40 you mention. The 14 days included administrative and communication delays, and business and weekend days. It looks like a "rubber stamp" process to me for evaluating this Lenski manuscript, in contrast to other papers published by the same journal. It seems possible to me that there was no meaningful peer review at all for the Lenski manuscript, and it may be worth making inquiries of the Journal on this point alone.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:44, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::The paper is straightforward and the data clear. Lenski's work is well known within the microbiology community and therefore much of the preceding information is already generally understood (i.e. reviewers don't need to dig through all the references). I can see it sailing through review.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::: In other words, you seem to be saying the latest paper was not given a thorough, independent peer review. I agree with that analysis. In fact, it probably "sailed through" without any meaningful peer review at all, despite published journal procedures claiming to require meaningful peer review.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:08, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::::On the contrary. I see it sailing through review because the experiment is straightforward, clearly reported and very interesting to the field. The techniques are uncontroversial and well understood among microbiologists. Easy reviews proceed faster, plain and simple. That reveals nothing about whether the paper received more, less or the same of scrutiny as the typical paper.

::::Are you familiar with PNAS review policy? I ask because in previous notes you've wondered whether authors submit original (raw?) data in addition to their paper's actual manuscripts. Have you perhaps discussed review policies with other Nation Academy of Sciences members or at least, publishing biologists? It might be more productive than polling anonymous sources on the internet.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:28, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Aschlafly, the purpose of a Peer Review is not to make sure the entire experiment wasn't a massive fraud - it is to ensure that the work adhered to scientific principles and guidelines. In this case, the work was short and did adhere to principal. Lenski has, as required, laid out how the experiment can be repeated. Are you saying that he risked his entire reputation on results that can be checked and refuted by another lab? {{unsigned|Falsehood}}

::::Aschlafly, peer reviews are not suitable to detect all experiment flaws or outright fraud. Reviewers can't always know whether a lab assistent made a mistake or even if the experiment was done at all. The primary goal is to make sure that the experiment can be repeated so completely independent researchers can verify the results. This is the only good verification. A mistake in the experiment means that the data cannot be trusted. That is true for fraudulent data as well. There are several reasons to repeat an experiment. First of all, a groundbreaking result will nearly always be repeated. Scientists want to be sure they can trust the result and not waste years on related experiments. The second reason is to test yourself. A scientist may want to repeat an important experiment before starting their own related experiments. It may also be done to test a new lab or test setup. Thirdly, indications of fraud are an obvious reason. Fourthly, highly complicated experiments that can easily go wrong may be replicated. Fifthly, new scientists are less trusted and more likely to be checked. Now, this experiment is not particularly likely to be repeated. It is not particularly groundbreaking (evolutionary changes have been observed in many other experiments), complicated and there are no indications of fraud. Of course, you/Conservapedia may want to appeal to colleages of mr. Lenski for a repeat of (parts of) the experiment, but I doubt that they will be swayed by your arguments that seem to boil down to: 'I don't understand the science, but I don't like the result, so there must be a mistake'. It would be wiser to point to an actual lack of evidence or methodology flaw in the paper (if it exists), so an experiment can be drafted to test the significance of that mistake. --[[User:Aapje|Aapje]] 07:29, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

== More replies to archived comments ==

:"''Why do you say that it does not support evolution?''" ([[Conservapedia talk:Lenski dialog/archive1#Questions for Aschlafly , not Bugler]] (Asked by JPohl of me):
See my post (now in the archive) dated 23:05, 16 June 2008 (search for that text).

:"''The current living species of coelacanth are not the same as the ones in fossils''" ([[Conservapedia talk:Lenski dialog/archive1#E. coli in our bowels]]) (in a question by Wandering to me)
:"''Modern coelacanths are anything but unchanged. For example, they're roughly three times as large as their ancient predecessors. Of the two known living species, neither are in the same genus as ancient coelacanths. Your statement is ''blatantly'' false''" (Same section) (by Rspeed in a response to Jimxchue)
How do we know that they are not the same species or genus? "Species" is defined in terms of interfertility, something that cannot be determined for fossils. And size doesn't mean much. Great Danes and Chihuahuas are in the same ''sub''-species, but the ratio of size difference is greater than 1:3.

[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:14, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:Hi Philip, I read your post and I don't think it addresses anything other than semantics. The bacteria was standard E Coli, and then after tens of thousands of generations, it started to metabolise citrate, which normally ''distinguishes'' E Coli from other species. That's very clearly the process of changing inherited traits over generations - ie, evolution.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 08:45, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:: I can't help wondering if you skimmed it too quickly and didn't pick which bit I was referring to here. I'll explain it in a different way:
::* According to evolution, there must be millions of information-generating mutations to go from microbes to man.
::* According to creation, mutations do ''not'' produce new genetic information, although ''very rarely'', you might by chance get the odd one.
::Lenski has allegedly found ''one'' information-generating mutation. So which of those two competing predictions does this evidence match the best?
:: I also pointed out two weeks ago on Andy's talk page the following:
{{QuoteBox|It took 31,500 generations before the bacteria acquired a single new ability (even assuming they actually do have some new genetic information). 31,500 generations for humans is around 600,000 to 900,000 years (depending on the average time between generations). Yet humans have supposedly evolved ''hundreds'' if not ''thousands'' of new abilities from their supposed primate forbears in a time span only three to five times that long. So this research can be seen as evidence (not absolute proof, of course) that evolution simply does not occur fast enough for us humans to have evolved, which is therefore ''evidence'' that evolution can't explain our existence.}}
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::There are some flaws in that logic though:
:::*Simple cells likely first appeared 4 billion years ago. Given how many existed simultaneously (an entire planet at some times v. a few petri dishes) and that simpler living beings have shorter lifespans, going from "microbes to man" (or something as genetically complex as man) is really a matter of time.
:::*31,500 generations is not a minimum number of generations for a rare, complex trait to manifest. That just happened to be the case here. Dumb luck could have had significant mutations develop at any earlier (or later) point.
:::*What definition of "ability" are you using here? All of the bacteria also evolved larger cells - would you count that as an "ability"? According to Lenski's work, "enough bacterial cells had lived and died that all simple mutations must already have occurred several times over"
:::*Bacteria are asexual. Animals and plants reproduce through sex, which causes significantly more genetic variation.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:18, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: No, going from microbe to man is ''not'' a matter of time. If you are travelling south from Sydney, how long will it take you to reach Brisbane? Answer: It's not a question of how long, because you are going in the wrong direction. The same applies here: you can't go from microbes to man when mutations destroy information rather than create it. See also [http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/431/ here].
::::: We both know the Earth is round, so the trip is still possible, if not extended. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/infotheory.html This] and [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html this] are good links on information theory.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: Yes, perhaps 31,500 generations just ''happened'' to be the case here. As you say, it ''might'' occur sooner, and it ''might'' take longer. But my argument was based on the ''evidence'' of this example, not on what speculation ''might'' allow for. The ''evidence'' is not ''proof'', but the ''evidence'' in this case is ''against'' evolution.
::::: I'm not following your claim here. The mutation happened, and it is proof against evolution?[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: I'm talking about the ability claimed by the research, to metabolise citrate, that apparently requires new genetic information. Being bigger presumably does not require that, else they would have trumpeted that as well.
::::: They didn't trumpet the metabolisation of citrate as "new information", but rather as a complex mutation that dramatically distinguished it from earlier generations. It would be like coming back to Earth in 100,000 years and finding that humans suddenly have two-foot-long third legs.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: Genetic variation through sexual reproduction is a variation ''within'' the existing genetic information; sexual reproduction does not create ''new'' genetic information.
::::: It varies the gene pool, which allows for different types of mutation and more dramatic diversification.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:31, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::: "''We both know the Earth is round, so the trip is still possible, if not extended.''": So? Like all analogies, it's not perfect. Evolution doesn't go around in circles like travelling around the Earth, so that reply is invalid, and the objection remains: mutations go in the wrong direction.
:::::: "''[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/infotheory.html This] and [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html this] are good links on information theory.''": No, they are not good links at all. From memory of checking the first one out before, it has little of substance. The second is a disagreement over a particular case, not a general look at information, and has some errors in it that I can identify.
:::::: "''I'm not following your claim here. The mutation happened, and it is proof against evolution?''": I said "evidence", not "proof". If you don't understand the difference, read the relevant sections in my [[Essay: Accuracy vs. neutrality on Conservapedia]]. Creationism ''also'' proposes mutations, so the fact that a mutation happened is not evidence favouring evolution.
:::::: "''They didn't trumpet the metabolisation of citrate as "new information", but rather as a complex mutation that dramatically distinguished it from earlier generations. It would be like coming back to Earth in 100,000 years and finding that humans suddenly have two-foot-long third legs.''": The New Scientist article quoted Jerry Coyne saying "it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events, ... That's just what creationists say can't happen.". What creationists say "can't happen" is an ''increase in information''. So if you are claiming that nobody is claiming this to be an increase in information, they you are claiming that Jerry Coyne doesn't know what he's talking about regarding what creationists claim (which could be the case, actually!). As for your example, a short third leg probably doesn't require new information anyway. We already have the information for legs, so failure (mutation) of a switch might result in a third one (it's happened with animals), and another fault (mutation) might cause that third leg to be stunted. So if Lenski's discovery is like this, then it really is the case that it doesn't support evolution, because microbes-to-microbiologist evolution requires ''new'' genetic information.
:::::: "''[Sexual reproduction] varies the gene pool, which allows for different types of mutation and more dramatic diversification.''": That sounds like hand-waving to me, rather than an argument of substance.
:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:40, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::Philip,
:::::With due respect, I see a fairly serious problem with the position you're taking. One of the central arguments against evolution is that mutations ''cannot'' produce new information. Now you're arguing that:

:::::''"According to creation, mutations do ''not'' produce new genetic information, although ''very rarely'', you might by chance get the odd one."''

:::::The problem is that, if it can "very rarely" happen "by chance," then the premise that mutations do not produce new genetic information is simply false. Instead, we're faced with a debate over ''how frequently'' mutations produce new genetic information. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 10:41, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Philip, I see your point about how the creation of new information through mutation does not necessarily contradict creationism at all. However, it hardly seems like evidence ''for'' it; and extrapolating as you did (trying to claim the timeframe for these bacteria applies equally to the supposed evolution of humans) honestly seems like mostly speculation... Which I admit is often overused by evolutionists as well, but it still isn't a good basis for deciding which theory the evidence favors. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 11:27, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

: BenP, it's possible to have both a rule and exceptions to that rule. For all practical purposes, mutations don't create new information. However, that doesn't rule out that, once in a blue moon (actually, far less often), you might actually get ''something'' simple that is new. And yes, I guess that there is then a debate about how frequently mutations produce new genetic information, which is sort of what I've been discussing here, in pointing out that ''in this case'' it took 31,500 generations, and even that assumes that this ''did'' happen, which I think is a long way from being accepted. But the question is not ''really'' how long it takes, but whether or not the extremely rare one is going to be swamped by all the deleterious ones. And especially with more complex creatures, it is easily going to get swamped, especially in creatures with sexual reproduction. That is, even if, once in 30,000 generations, there was the odd information-gaining mutation, then what's the chances that that mutation will get passed on to the next generation? Especially given that this won't be the only mutation being selected for (or against).
: Feebasfactor, why is not not evidence ''for'' creation? If that's the prediction that it best fits, then it ''is'' evidence for it! You're right about the timeframe not applying to humans. Because humans reproduce sexually, and therefore the next generation will not necessarily inherit the mutation, and because natural selection favours ''individuals'', not ''mutations'', then a less-fit ''individual'' will be selected ''against'' even with the odd "good" mutation. So really, it will occur a lot ''slower'' for humans than for bacteria.
: For more information on this, see [http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4473 this] brief description of "Haldane's Dilemma".
: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:27, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

:: It's amusing to me that you cite Haldane's Dilemma, even though it was debunked at the same time it was given that name. As Leigh Van Valen pointed out on page in his paper [http://www.jstor.org/pss/2458906 Haldane's Dilemma, Evolutionary Rates, and Heterosis], significant evolutionary changes occur when the environmental changes cause unadapted organisms have less reproductive success. This holds with evolutionary theory, as there is abundant evidence of large changes occurring in organisms at times where their environment changes and their population is small. Mind you, this is the paper which originated the term "Haldane's Dilemma", so with the exception of J. B. S. Haldane's papers, this is the original source. --[[User:Rspeed|Rspeed]] 16:41, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

: Philip, the massive increase in size is just one (and the most readily visible) aspect of Coelacanthiforme's evolution since the end of the Cretaceous. If you want firm proof, there are significant differences in skeletal structure between the most closely-related ancient and modern species of coelacanth (Macropoma and Latimeria). It is an established fact that modern species of coelacanth are in a separate genus. --[[User:Rspeed|Rspeed]] 15:01, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:: There have apparently been various ''attempts'' to debunk Haldane's Dilemma, but those attempts have themselves been debunked. In 1992 (well after Van Valen's paper), George C. Williams wrote of Haldane's Dilemma, "In my opinion the problem was never solved, by Wallace or anyone else."[http://saintpaulscience.com/Haldane.htm]
:: "''It is an established fact that modern species of coelacanth are in a separate genus''": Oh? Because you say so? Yet you didn't explain how this can be determined without interfertility tests. No, this "established fact" is by decree, not scientific tests of interfertility.
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:22, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
::: "Oh? Because you say so?" No, because the scientists who know how to determine taxonomy said so. Your argument is unbelievably weak, by that logic humans could be genetically compatible with T-Rex. Rather than simply dismissing everything that disagrees with the Bible, you should probably do some research from reliable sources. The scientific method exists for a reason.
::: That's fine about someone disagreeing with Van Valen's conclusions, but can you share his reasoning? I found Van Valen's debunking of Haldane's Dilemma to be quite logical and it fits with the data (such as Prof. Lenski's experiment).
::: --[[User:Rspeed|Rspeed]] 20:35, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

==Lead author won't answer simple, basic questions==

IMO the paper has no credibility because the lead author of the paper, Zachary Blount, has refused to give straight consistent answers to the following simple, basic questions about the experiment:

(1) -- whether evolution of citrate-eating (Cit+) E. coli bacteria was a goal of the experiment (I noted that a "goal" does not have to be a sure result), and

(2) -- whether the purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (giving insufficient glucose supplies in order to cause alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation) was to favor the evolution of citrate-eating E. coli bacteria.

Blount's refusal to properly answer these questions is discussed in the following article on my blog --

[http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2008/06/co-author-of-e-coli-paper-dodges.html Co-author of E. coli paper dodges questions]

More details concerning Blount's refusal to properly answer these questions are in the comment thread under the following post on Carl Zimmer's "The Loom" blog (note particularly my most recent comments in that thread) --
[http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php A new step in evolution]

Also, I think Andy Schlafly is wrong to request all of the raw data, because (1) copying all of the raw data to send to him would be a huge job and (2) the raw data might not even be in a form that could be readily understood by someone who did not participate in the research. IMO the citrate-eating bacteria are the best evidence supporting the paper (such as it is).[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 18:59, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
: a reading of the blog reveals that Zachary Blount did indeed address the questions that the above poster named and did so clearly. Please read more carefully next time and don't post falsehoods[[User:DeanWinter|DeanWinter]] 19:10, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:: LarryFarma raises an excellent question about whether a goal of Lenski and Blount's project was to generate citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria. (I did not find the answer in the paper.) Did the researchers figure out, after many years of fruitless attempts, how best to promote the percentage of citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria in a population? The details of the data might shed light on how that goal was achieved, if in fact that was the goal. They should turn over the data for public scrutiny so that questions can be resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:33, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
::: Blount's comments on "LarryFarma's" blog make it clear that the evolution of citric eaters was not a goal, but not completely unexpected. The paper, though it was pretty technical for me, seems to indicate that as well. [[User:AndyMann|AndyMann]] 20:15, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: If you're serious, then please provide some quotes and links to back up your statements. Also contribute to entries rather than violating the [[90/10 rule]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:32, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:Reply to Aschlafly's comment of 19:33, 26 June 2008 (EDT) --
:''"LarryFarma raises an excellent question about whether a goal of Lenski and Blount's project was to generate citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria. ('''I did not find the answer in the paper.''')"'' (emphasis added) I asked Zachary Blount to clarify his statements about whether evolution of Cit+ (citrate-eating) E. coli bacteria was a goal of the experiment. He answered by asking me to go on a wild goose chase by reading the whole paper, which has 8 pages of fine print -- this is called "bibliography bluffing." And when people balk at going on these wild goose chases, they are accused of not wanting to learn.

:''"Did the researchers figure out, after many years of fruitless attempts, how best to promote the percentage of citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria in a population?"'' As I said, I asked Blount whether favoring Cit+ evolution was the purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (giving the bacteria insufficient supplies of glucose so as to create alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation), and he did not answer.

:''"They should turn over the data for public scrutiny so that questions can be resolved."'' I disagree with you here, for the reasons stated at the end of my first comment in this talk page.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 05:25, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:: Thanks for your insightful comments and continued efforts to obtain the truth.

:: It has been conceded, finally, by Lenski defenders that the data are not too voluminous to turn over. The underlying data for Figure 1 in the paper for the population expansion during the alleged evolution of the Cit-plus phenotype, for example, could shed light on whether contamination played a role. There is no legitimate reason to withhold the greater resolution from the public, which funded the study.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:15, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::::People need to stop asking to "turn over the data for public scrutiny" before they've fully read and comprehended the papers and information released to date. E. Coli don't live off of citrate - it's a characteristic of the species - so there was no "goal to promote the percentage that could do it". The fact that a certain population were able to after after thousands of generations of reproduction in a controlled, monitored setting was the key observation, and Lenski's team is still investigating the specifics of when and how that characteristic was enabled. It reflects poorly on an online encyclopedia that the leadership is still questioning whether sufficient data to understand the experiment has been released. The most relevant data from the experiment is the actual bacteria itself, and Lenski has publicly offered to share samples of them with any scientist qualified to handle them, who follows the proper, professional protocols. The Consevapedia community has yet to see a specific, professional response to Professor Lenski's second letter other than a flippant remark about attitude and a continued insistence that data has not been revealed when it clearly has.

::::I'll probably earn another 90/10 block for this, but when you continue to question Lenski's work while admitting that you've only skimmed the related paper, you accomplish nothing but setting a poor example of intellectual honesty for the students who use CP as a trustworthy resource. With all respect, I would ask that instead, you retain the services of a qualified scientist who can engage in a proper review of Lenski's work, whose could then post an ongoing journal of the review process and its findings here on CP. ''That'' would be an appropriate lesson for the students in the proper application of scientific scrutiny to findings that some find questionable. Godspeed. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 20:20, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::The development of citrate metabolizers wasn't the main intent (see Lenski's early papers) and it's actually tangential in the overall context of the long-term experiment. Zachary Blount describes the purpose of citrate in the media in his responses at Carl Zimmer's blog, The Loom. http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php (see replies #115 & #270). Citrate was not added to be a carbon nutrient in the media but as a non-metabolizable chelator (the three carboxyl groups of citrate can bind certain cations in solution). The recipe for the medium was taken from other microbiologists who developed the recipe as a general culture medium back in 1949. Lenski's description of the DM25 media is here: https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/dm25liquid.html. Glucose was the intended carbon source. If you read the Lenski article cited by Blount (Phenotypic and genomic evolution during a 20,000-generation experiment with the bacterium Escherichia coli. -- available here: https://www.msu.edu/~lenski/, you'll see the setup and reasons for performing the experiments (An earlier article at generation 2000 is here: http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/1991,%20AmNat,%20Lenski%20et%20al.pdf). Basically, Lenksi wanted to see how mutations arise and move through populations over time. Even if the media and growth conditions remain pretty consistent over time, the populations continuously shift and change. That is because for a bacterium in the experiment the 'environment' is not just made up of the flask and media but also the *other cells in the flask* with which it must compete. This results in a continuously shifting competitive environment as mutations arise in lineages. Citrate utilization was just one of the many interesting variations acquired over the course of the experiment. Read his other papers for more details and a fuller understanding of the open-ended experiment's scope.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 21:16, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::: I looked at the blog and found it to be remarkably uninformative. I saw nothing about Blount and Lenski's purpose, nothing that persuasively ruled out non-evolutionary reasons for the citrate-eating bacteria, and nothing to justify the withholding of the data to reveal greater resolution than provided by the figures in the paper.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:00, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::Blogging has limits, which is why I also provided references to Lenski's other papers, including some of those Blount mentioned would be worth reading.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::With regard to 'competent scientists' consider that Behe, in his discussions on this topic has not argued about the 'mechanics' and data presented in Lenski's paper. In his review that can be found on the amazon.com website, he calls Lenksi's work 'fascinating' (and means it in a good way).--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 21:29, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

That was strange -- for several hours I was not able to post here, but now I can. Here is my response to Argon's comment of 21:16, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Argon said, "The development of citrate metabolizers wasn't the main intent"

I didn't ask if Cit+ (citrate-eating E. coli bacteria) evolution was the "main intent" of the experiment -- I only asked if Cit+ evolution was one of the original "goals." There is a misunderstanding about what the word "goal" means -- a goal does not have to be a sure result. In searches for the Lost Dutchman Mine and the ivory-billed woodpecker, finding them are "goals." A "goal" can be one of many goals, a secondary goal, a longshot goal, or whatever. And "intent" is not part of the definition of "goal" -- "intent" generally means what one plans to do, but one cannot plan to achieve an uncertain result. BTW, the term "citrate metabolizers" is misleading because the bacteria already had the ability to metabolize citrate but did not have the ability to pass it through the cell walls.

Zachary Blount's following statement in comment #115 under the [http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php New step in evolution] post on Zimmer's blog indicates that Cit+ evolution was one of the original goals of the experiment:

''"When Dr. Lenski started, he figured the citrate would provide an opportunity that the populations might or might not figure out a way to exploit, thereby presenting a potential point of divergence between the populations (this is my understanding - I will need to check with him to make certain I understand this properly)."''

Blount then essentially contradicted his above statement by saying that "the intent of the experiment was never to evolve a Cit+ E. coli variant" (comment #115) and that Cit+ evolution was "not a goal" (comment #122).

Also, the following factors suggest that Cit+ evolution was an original goal of the experiment:

(1) Cit+ evolution had been observed once before. Blount reported in comment #115 under the [http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php New step in evolution] post on Zimmer's blog, ''"there has been only one report of a spontaneous Cit+ mutant of E. coli in the past century (Hall, B. 1982. Chromosomal mutation for citrate utilization by Escherichia coli K-12. Journal of Bacteriology, 151: 269 ï¿½ 273.)"). ''

(2) I and others assumed that a purpose of the glucose-cycling (giving the bacteria an insufficient glucose supply so as to create alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation) was to favor Cit+ evolution. I asked Blount if this was in fact a purpose of the glucose-cycling and he did not answer. I asked what the purpose of the glucose-cycling was if favoring Cit+ evolution was not the purpose, and he did not answer.

Was there a research proposal for this whole experiment that started in 1988, and if so, what does that proposal say, if anything, about my questions? [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 10:24, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:I may be missing something here, but why is the supposed "goal" of the experiment important? It's the important thing the result?--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 11:29, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::British_cons''':''' Suppose a committee is considering this research for an award or a prize and asks the researchers the same questions I asked''':''' (1) Was Cit+ evolution a goal of the experiment? and (2) was favoring Cit+ evolution a purpose of the glucose-cycling? Are the researchers going to answer, “No, it was not a goal — it was just an unforeseen accident. We don’t deserve any credit for it.”

::Also, IMO knowing the goals of the experiment and the purposes of the experimental methodologies are important parts of understanding the experiment. Also, the candor of the researchers is in question here -- as shown above, I did not get straight consistent answers to simple, basic questions.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 12:27, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::There are two possibilities. It was the goal. It was not the goal. The result is that they have produced Cit+. If it was the goal then they have demonstrated what they set out to demonstrate. Well done. If it was not the goal then serendipity has favored them. It is no means unusual in science for unexpected results to further the cause of science. Nobody would reject or question them because they were unexpected. Indeed they are even more welcome if they're unexpected because something new has been learned. So again - well done. I don't see the problem.--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 12:45, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::British_cons''':''' As I said, suppose that a committee is considering this research for an award -- wouldn't this research be much less deserving of an award if Cit+ evolution were just an unforeseen accident? Also, the candor of the researchers is in question here -- as I showed above, I did not get straight consistent answers to simple, basic questions. As I noted above, Cit+ evolution had been observed before, so it seems that repeating it was a likely goal of the experiment. Also, I asked about the purpose(s) of the glucose-cycling and I got no answer to that question. Knowing the goals of the research and the purposes of the experimental methodologies are important parts of understanding the research.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 14:07, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::Thudden''':''' ''As I said, suppose that a committee is considering this research for an award -- wouldn't this research be much less deserving of an award if Cit+ evolution were just an unforeseen accident?'' This betrays a unequivocal lack of understanding of scientific process and acclaim. Hundreds of world-altering scientific discoveries have been serendipitous: Pauling and Penicillin, Galvani and neuroelectricity, Nagano's discovery of interferon, Becquerel and Röntgen's discovery of radioactivity and X-rays respectively. If you stumble on something marvellous by accident, you receive identical academic acclaim, perhaps only with added envy.
:::::'''Fleming''' and Penicillin (just for the sake of accuracy). [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 17:56, 8 January 2009 (EST)
::''"If you stumble on something marvellous by accident, you receive identical academic acclaim,"'' I disagree -- IMO things discovered by intelligent searching are more highly regarded. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 06:17, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::''Thudden: Your disagreement would be more convincing if it was backed up by evidence, or engaged with the contrary evidence provided.
:::"Identical academic acclaim": Fleming won the Nobel Prize, Becquerel won the Nobel Prize, Rontgen won the first ever Nobel Prize for Physics, Nobel Prizes were awarded for the serendipitous discoveries of restriction endonucleases and RNA interference... Not to mention "Eureka!" The list of people who've won the highest acclaim for accidental discoveries is very, very long. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 17:56, 8 January 2009 (EST)

::::''"Your disagreement would be more convincing if it was backed up by evidence, or engaged with the contrary evidence provided."''
::::It is just my own personal opinion -- I have no opinion poll results on the question. Do you have any opinion poll results to back up your statement?
::::I was especially impressed by the way Neptune was discovered in 1846 -- a mathematician predicted its location on the basis of perturbations of the motion of Uranus, and Neptune was found in one night very close to the predicted spot. Also, Pluto was found on the basis of perturbations in Neptune's motion but the search took much longer.
::::You should sign your comments at the end, not the beginning -- when you sign them at the beginning, it looks like you are addressing someone (that is what I originally thought about your preceding comment). [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:06, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

(unindent) Rather than dispute this with you YET AGAIN, can we wait until you respond to criticisms of your position on other websites first? You keep repeating this "no straight answers" argument, and people keep pointing out your error, and you've yet to see this argument through to the end anywhere. Conservapedia is already struggling to maintain its current signal-to-noise ratio, please stop forum-shopping here. [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 14:17, 27 June 2008 (EDT) ''<-knows where all the good sales are...''

:: Aziraphale said, ''"Rather than dispute this with you YET AGAIN, can we wait until you respond to criticisms of your position on other websites first? "'' I have already spent a helluva lot of time responding to those criticisms on Carl Zimmer's blog and my own blog! (see links in my first comment on this talk page) But I have been kicked off of Carl Zimmer's blog, and my own blog gets only about 50 visits per day. In contrast, this talk page is getting thousands of visits per day, so it is obviously a much better forum for publicizing my views.

::''"You keep repeating this 'no straight answers' argument, and people keep pointing out your error."'' And I keep pointing out the errors in arguments that attempt to point out my alleged error.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 16:18, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::Ok, fair enough. Enjoy your time here. :) [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 18:05, 27 June 2008 (EDT) ''<-o/~know when to hold 'em... o/~''

::::''"Enjoy your time here."'' I intend to. I never before had such a good opportunity to publicize my views. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 02:21, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::It has been brought to my attention that there may be a problem with your question. You wish to know about the "goal" of the experiment. Is that a reasonable way to ask a question of a scientific experiment? Shouldn't the question be "What hypothesis was being tested?"?--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 10:03, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::How could a random event, Cit+ evolution, be a "hypothesis"? Even Zachary Blount used the term "goal." What is wrong with saying that an experiment has a "goal" (or "goals")? [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:53, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Because according to the [[Scientific method]] the objective of an experiment is to test an hypothesis. Remember that things are not proved in science - only disproved. The objective of an experiment is never to "prove" anything - only to test an hypothesis. If the hypothesis is confirmed then it is strengthened, if it not confirmed it is weakened or discarded. Consequently the fundamental question to ask of an experiment is, "What hypothesis was being tested?" --[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 16:07, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::How would you describe Cit+ evolution as a hypothesis, even assuming that Cit+ evolution had not been observed before (Cit+ evolution was observed prior to Lenski's experiment) ?[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 21:54, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm afraid that's for you to figure out. As I've said, the only sensible way for you to ask the question you want answered is to form it as a question about the hypothesis. How you manage that is down to you. :-)--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 02:27, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::''"I'm afraid that's for you to figure out."'' It's your idea that it must be stated as a hypothesis, so showing how it can be stated as a hypothesis is your responsibility. Anyway, Lenski could not hypothesize about whether Cit+ evolution could occur, because it had been observed prior to the start of his experiment. All he could do was consider Cit+ evolution to be a "goal" of his experiment. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 05:43, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sorry, I thought you were asking for help. Anyway, the article on [[Scientific method]] ''on this wiki'' states that the reason for an experiment is to test an hypothesis - so it's not my opinion but what this Wiki states. I suppose you could edit the article so this it reflects your view of how science works. --[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 06:24, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::::Reading Lenski's recent paper for comprehension reveals that the hypothesis being tested is that development of the Cit+ strain is a historically contingent process (that is, arising by multiple steps separated over time). The null hypothesis (not supported by the results of the experiments) is that the Cit+ strain arises by a single, exceptionally rare event.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 10:52, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::: ''"Reading Lenski's recent paper for comprehension reveals that the hypothesis being tested is that development of the Cit+ strain is a historically contingent process (that is, arising by multiple steps separated over time)."''
:::::I was aware that one of the original goals of the experiment was to test for historical contingency -- that was the reason for freezing the populations at each 500th generation. My questions were about other things: (1) was Cit+ evolution an original goal of the experiment (remember that this whole experiment started in 1988, long before the study in the present paper), (2) was favoring Cit+ evolution a purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (giving the bacteria insufficient glucose supplies so as to cause alternating glucose feeding and starvation), and (3) what were other purposes -- if any -- of the glucose-cycling. Zachary Blount did not give a straight answer to the first question and gave no answers at all to the latter two questions. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 13:12, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::You continue to dwell on the semantics of 'goal' as though it has some particular relevance to the validity of the research presented in Lenski's latest paper. The experiment was started in '88 to track the evolution of a population of E. coli. The purpose of the 'glucose cycling' is to provide the bacteria with an environment that will favor those mutants that are better able to exploit a limited critical resource. The glucose cycling does not inherently favor the development of a Cit+ strain any more than it favors other potential solutions to the problem - like secreting a toxin to kill your competitors, or faster reproduction to outbreed them, or photosynthesis, or cannibalism, or what have you. There is no other purpose to providing the bacteria with a limited supply of glucose. Citrate is present in the growth medium as a chelating agent and buffer - it was not added solely to serve as a potential carbon source, although it is one. 
:::::::You seem to believe that the reason that Lenski is getting acclaim for this research is just that has isolated a strain of E. coli that can metabolize citrate under unusual conditions - and your response seems to be that he does not deserve praise for this, since he didn't set out with this particular outcome in mind - it's just an accident, if in fact the Cit+ bacteria exist at all. Or maybe you object because you think Lenski somehow 'stacked the deck' in favor of his bacteria becoming Cit+, so the results aren't 'fair' somehow. Or perhaps you think that after 20 years of failing to develop a Cit+ strain of E. coli through selection, Lenski just gave up, genetically engineered such a strain, and then faked his data. If you could clearly state what your suspicions are, rather than simply repeating that Blount won't answer your questions, it would be simpler to address your concerns. 
:::::::This is utterly beside the point, however, because the importance of this recent paper does not depend on the detail of the strain being Cit+ - it could have been the development of a toxin, or some other event that led the new strain to be markedly, phenotypically different from its ancestors in some way. The importance lies in the work that was done to sketch out the outline of how the new trait developed, and in the re-development of the same trait during a re-running of the experiment from ancestral stock. 
:::::::Is it interesting that the trait seen in Lenski's E. coli is the metabolism of citrate under aerobic conditions? Yes. Is it remarkable? Yes, since you can count the number of E. coli strains that can do this on one hand. It's so wild and crazy that it might lead one to question whether the bacteria involved should even be called E. coli anymore - it's that striking a difference from 'normal' E. coli behavior. Was the development of the Cit+ strain an accident? Entirely. Would another Cit+ strain arise if the experiment was completely restarted from 1988? Almost certainly not - Lenski's data suggests that this is a staggeringly unlikely event, dependent on a series of merely overwhelmingly unlikely events. Did Lenski wish to develop a Cit+ strain from the beginning? No man can know the inner mind of another, but I would bet the farm that he didn't see this coming. If I were designing an E. coli breeding scheme with the stated purpose of selecting for a Cit+ mutant, I can think of much, much, much better ways to do it than this experimental protocol. The Cit+ trait is a novelty - an interesting one, one that is remarkable because of its rarity, one that resonates - but the value of the research does not depend upon it. --[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 17:33, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

::::''"You continue to dwell on the semantics of 'goal' as though it has some particular relevance to the validity of the research presented in Lenski's latest paper. The experiment was started in '88 to track the evolution of a population of E. coli."''
::::I am trying to get answers to some simple, basic questions about the experiment. Is there something wrong with that?
::::Also, the "semantics" -- as you call them -- of "goal" are very important. A lot of people have the mistaken idea that a goal is necessarily an expected result or is necessarily an intended result. Just going around telling people that the Cit+ evolution was not a goal can be very misleading.
:::::If you want to expand the term 'goal' to the point that you include unexpected, unintended results then you rob it of all meaning. By your reasoning, my getting into a fatal car accident is the 'goal' of my driving to the grocery store. If you think that 'goal' is a term of art that describes the entire universe of possible outcomes of an action, you are mistaken. If you want Blount et al to admit that the emergence of a Cit+ mutant was '''possible''', given the experimental protocol, then I think that you already have your answer: yes. Was it expected? No. Was the experiment designed from the beginning to favor Cit+ mutation over some other pathway? No.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 23:22, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"The purpose of the 'glucose cycling' is to provide the bacteria with an environment that will favor those mutants that are better able to exploit a limited critical resource."''
::::That statement is too vague.
:::::What part is too vague? The alternatives to glucose cycling are: provide so much glucose that cell growth remains exponential up through the time of the next sampling; provide so little glucose that there is no cell division at all; or use a chemostat setup in which the glucose concentration can be maintained at a constant, arbitrary level indefinitely at the cost of vastly increased material and labor costs to the experimenter.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 12:05, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"The glucose cycling does not inherently favor the development of a Cit+ strain any more than it favors other potential solutions to the problem - like secreting a toxin to kill your competitors, or faster reproduction to outbreed them, or photosynthesis, or cannibalism, or what have you."''
::::The glucose cycling gives an especially big advantage to Cit+ bacteria because they have something to eat after the glucose supply is exhausted whereas their Cit- neighbors do not.
:::::It gives them '''an''' advantage. It's impossible to predict ahead of time how '''big''' an advantage it is, because instead of being unable to metabolize citrate they may merely be terrible at it. If the Cit- cells are better at glucose metabolism than the Cit+ ones are, they may completely swamp out the Cit+ in the early, glucose-dependent phase. Even if the Cit+ cells continue to grow after the glucose is exhausted, they may never completely outcompete the Cit- cells by the time the next population sample is taken. In fact, this appears to be what has happened, as the experiment has shown that two populations of cells originating from the Ara-3 line have reached a temporary equilibrium: a grows-very-fast-on-glucose Cit- population (10%) and a grows-more-slowly-on-glucose-but-keeps-growing-on-citrate Cit+ population (90%). --[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 12:05, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"Citrate is present in the growth medium as a chelating agent and buffer -- it was not added solely to serve as a potential carbon source, although it is one."''
::::Yes, I know it is there as a chelating agent -- but I also want to know if Cit+ evolution was a goal (again, a goal does not have to be an expected result and can even be an unlikely result) and if favoring Cit+ evolution was a purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (I also would like to know if there were other purposes of the glucose-cycling and exactly how any other purposes work). The fact that Cit+ evolution was observed once previously adds to my hunch that it was a goal. Also, the bacteria already had the ability to metabolize citrate and just needed to evolve a way to pass citrate through the cell wall.
::::''"You seem to believe that the reason that Lenski is getting acclaim for this research is just that has isolated a strain of E. coli that can metabolize citrate under unusual conditions"''
::::Well, he is getting a lot of acclaim for it, isn't he? The paper has been widely ballyhooed all over the Internet. The Internet has several articles and hundreds of comments about it.
:::::He does not deserve acclaim because he is a farmer who has a goose that lays golden eggs, but because he can demonstrate in rough form how the goose came to lay golden eggs when it's grandparents could not. In fact, he has gone back and re-bred the grandparents and gotten golden-egg laying geese again and again, even though none of his other geese, or even the great-grandparents of the golden goose, can breed golden-egg-layers. The real achievement is not having the goose, it's reproducing it against all the odds, and showing that there's something special about the grandparents compared to the greatgrandparents, even though the grandparents appear to be normal. The fact that many folks, including those in the media, can't get past the 'ohmygoshgoldeneggs!!!' phase is not Lenski's fault.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 23:29, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"If you could clearly state what your suspicions are"''
::::Right now I am just trying to understand the experiment. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 20:46, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::::''"I'm sorry, I thought you were asking for help."'' You call that "help"? All you did was clutter up this talk page with your irrelevant "hypothesis" idea. With friends like you, who needs enemies? [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 10:34, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::When did I call it help? I said that I thought you were asking for it. In any event Brossa seems to have clarified the situation.--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 11:38, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::''"When did I call it help? I said that I thought you were asking for it."''
:::::::And you thought -- or seemed to think -- that you were giving it. I am beginning to suspect that you are just a troll.
:::::::''"In any event Brossa seems to have clarified the situation."''
:::::::No, he has not clarified the situation -- see my above response to him. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 13:29, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::I will not stoop to name calling. Goodbye and good luck with your enquiries.--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 14:07, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::::Well, what did you expect? First you introduced an irrelevant topic, "hypothesis." Then you contradicted yourself by first saying ''"I'm sorry, I thought you were asking for help"'' and then saying ''"When did I call it help?"'' [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:42, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::::Mods, can we get a ruling on this? LarryFarma is harassing other users, talking far more than he is making valid contributions, and generally being a troll. If he was defending Lenski instead of attacking the paper, he would have been blocked a long time ago. Can someone please comment on this? I believe we can all make our points without name-calling. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]
:::::::In fact, the only contributions that Larry has made have been to this talk page. Can we get a 90/10 block please? [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]
::::::::Aaronp: Is somebody hassling you? People who don't want to read my comments don't have to read them.
::::::::Also, the 90/10 rule doesn't apply here because I cannot make any contributions to the project page, which is reserved for the exchange of letters between Schlafly and Lenski.
::::::::BTW, I am not attacking the paper -- I am only attacking the lead author's failure to give straight answers to simple, basic questions about it. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 21:17, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::: Okay, here's my two-bob's worth.
::::::::: LarryFarma, this page was started to question the ''validity'' of Lenski's work and claims. Although I can see how questions about his ''goals'' would be relevant to awarding him a prize, I can't see that they are relevant to the validity of his work. I think that this might be the cause of some of the angst, as some editors are assuming that you are trying to question the work's ''validity'' with an argument that has no bearing on that point.
::::::::: Secondly, Aaronp has a point about the so-called 90/10 rule. It's point is to ensure that editors contribute to the site and don't just argue. That you are unable to contribute to this project page doesn't mean that you can't contribute elsewhere on the site. The rule is not page-specific in that sense. So as Aaronp has called for that rule to be invoked, and as you have only contributed on this talk page, I think that his request is fair. However, I will allow you to make another post or two to wind up your arguments before doing so. Beyond that, I will feel obliged to enforce it.
::::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:35, 29 June 2008 (EDT) (Administrator)

::::::''"LarryFarma, this page was started to question the validity of Lenski's work and claims."''

::::::The opening sentence of my first comment questions the validity of Lenski's work:
::::::''"IMO the paper has no credibility because the lead author of the paper, Zachary Blount, has refused to give straight consistent answers to the following simple, basic questions about the experiment:"''

::::::You say,
::::::''"Although I can see how questions about his goals would be relevant to awarding him a prize"''

::::::That is not the issue here -- the issue here is that the lead author of the paper, Zachary Blount, has not given straight answers to my simple, basic questions about the experiment. If I were a peer-reviewer of the paper or in the audience at a presentation of the paper at a scientific conference, would he be dodging my questions? And my questions are not just about goals -- for example, I also would like to know the purposes of the glucose-cycling (alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation). These things are all part of understanding the experiment. Also, what does the original research proposal -- if there is one -- say about the goals and methodologies of the experiment? Is Lenski willing to release that proposal?

:::::: ''"That you are unable to contribute to this project page doesn't mean that you can't contribute elsewhere on the site."''

::::::I am new to the site and therefore have not had an opportunity to contribute elsewhere on the site. Would you like me to write an article about co-evolution? All I would have to do would just copy-and-paste from my blog's several articles about co-evolution. I have found the issues of co-evolution to be a very effective challenge to evolution theory.

::::::''" I will allow you to make another post or two to wind up your arguments before doing so. Beyond that, I will feel obliged to enforce it."''

::::::Are you willing, then, to censor all future comments that attack my positions? If comments attacking my positions are posted in the future here, then why shouldn't I be allowed to defend myself? In fact, while I was writing this comment, Brossa posted three comments attacking my positions.

::::::Also, how do you intend to "enforce" the 90/10 rule -- by IP address blocking? That is often ineffective and also often unintentionally blocks other Internet users who share the same ISP proxy.

::::::BTW, I am very annoyed that Aaronp hypocritically called me a "troll" while criticizing me for using that name to insult another commenter. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 01:14, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::: Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear in some of my comments. The first part of my message was not as an administrator, but just to try and clarify the issues. I didn't mean to suggest that you hadn't addressed the validity of his claims. It was meant simply to point out that some may be misunderstanding the point of your comments. And I'm not saying that the questions you are raising are not legitimate questions to raise.
::::::: It's not true to say that you "have not had an opportunity to contribute elsewhere on the site". You've had opportunity every time you've edited.
::::::: We do allow copying of your own work. There is a template available to note that it is your own work. And of course it can be edited by others, as is the case with all articles.
::::::: If you stop making arguments, your critics will stop disagreeing with you. Yes, it will likely mean that they will get the last word, and that might be unfortunate, but that's not going to be reason to ignore the so-called 90/10 rule.
::::::: I'm not suggesting that you are the only one in the wrong here. Uncivil language happens a fair bit. But that's peripheral to the issue I'm discussing here.
::::::: I've unblocked you, because it wasn't fair for you to be blocked for 90/10 when I'd given you a warning and permission to make one or two more posts, but you used one on responding to me, so that gives you one left to respond to your critics. And fair warning: I've referred to the 90/10 rule as the "so-called" 90/10 rule, because it's not a rule against precisely 90% talk vs. 10% contributions, but a rule against "unproductive activity", with 90/10 being an ''example'' of that. So simply making the odd article edit or posting the odd copied article will not necessarily avoid that rule. It's something that we administrators make a judgement on, and others will make it more readily that I will.
::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:51, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::''"I've unblocked you, because it wasn't fair for you to be blocked for 90/10 when I'd given you a warning and permission to make one or two more posts, but you used one on responding to me, so that gives you one left to respond to your critics."''

:::::That reminds me of the following lawyer joke:
:::::Customer: What are your rates?
:::::Lawyer: $100 for three questions.
:::::Customer: Isn't that kind of steep?
:::::Lawyer: Yes. What is your third question?

:::::''"If you stop making arguments, your critics will stop disagreeing with you. Yes, it will likely mean that they will get the last word"''

:::::Almost all of my arguments here have been answers to my critics. What is at stake here is my right to answer critics. And the reason why I have been making more comments here than other commenters is that other commenters have been using tag-team tactics against me. Giving me just one more opportunity to answer attacks is unacceptable because those attacks are continuing and will continue. And how do I know that other commenters here are not violating the 90/10 rule? Am I being singled out because of Aaronp's rude complaint?

:::::''"It's not true to say that you "have not had an opportunity to contribute elsewhere on the site". You've had opportunity every time you've edited."''

:::::I would have liked to make some contributions to Conservapedia articles, but I now have mixed feelings about Conservapedia because of the 90/10 rule, an arbitrary and unfair rule which is being used to prevent me from defending myself here. I gave up on Wikipedia a long time ago because of its arbitrary and unfair rules and practices, and I am now seeing that Conservapedia is no better.

:::::Anyway, we can debate my questions here until doomsday, but nothing can excuse Zachary Blount's failure to give straight answers to those questions. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:26, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::While I completely agree with you that the 90/10 rule is somewhat intimidating (I even refrained from removing wikilinks to salted articles from talk pages because I feared that a casual inspection would make those edits look like "talk, talk, talk"!), it should be said that so far, 20 of your 20 edits were on this page. In other words, your contributions outside of this discussion amount to ZERO. This is an encyclopedia project (or at least it says so) and not a discussion forum. Making encyclopedia edits should be your first priority, not an afterthought. If I remember correctly (I have only paid little attention to this trainwreck), people with far better ratios also received 90/10 blocks for making just a few posts here. You on the other hand were given ''edit rights'' just so you could debate here. Look at me, I got more than a 100 edits (according to My Preferences), most of them non-talk, and I still can't edit at night. You have been treated ''extremely'' well, all things considered. It's time that you actually contribute to the site's primary purpose: Building an encyclopedia. --[[User:KevinM|KevinM]] 15:42, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

== removal of content from this page removes context of Lenski's second reply ==
I'm sure it's an oversight but Lenski, in his second letter, made several direct references to the discussion that has been removed from this page. Some of his comments thus appear inappropriately to lack context. I'm sure you did not intend to remove significant parts of this debate, especially when the result seems so one-sided.[[User:AndyMann|AndyMann]] 20:09, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, it was an oversight. It was archived, but the archive was not linked to on this page. It has since been linked. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:53, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

==Archive Link?==

Can a link be provided to the archive for this page? Thanks. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 20:48, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Oops. Did my edits delete the earlier sections? If so, I'm sorry. Could someone restore the original? --[[User:Argon|Argon]]
:No, your edits were not a problem. It was the edits of those individuals who decided to use this talk page as an attack forum. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:02, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

I read this page a while ago - Lensky and ASchaffly's two-and-fro, and have since returned. Why is it that ASchaffly's second letter this time seems to have been edited to be a lot more polite than when I first read it? It makes Lenski's second reply seem unnecessarily rude. When I first read this I felt his tone was justified, now it seems out of place.
:I don't think the letter has been changed at all. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 22:54, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

== Whence Lenski? ==

Lenski's article was published in the PNAS, which is from the National Academy of Sciences. Just [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22national+academy+of+sciences%22+god Google their name and "god"] and see why they care so much about "proving" evolution: 93% are atheists! Maybe PNAS isn't a professional organization at all, but a fraternity designed to influence American public policy away from Christian principles. [http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html] [http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3506.asp] {{unsigned|Drochld}}

:I'm a little confused about the terminology of the survey. According to the 1998 figures, 7% had "personal belief", 72% had "personal disbelief", and 21% had "doubt (presumably equivalent to atheism) or agnosticism". I know what atheism and agnosticism are, but what does personal disbelief mean in this case? It sounds like agnosticism, but agnosticism is in a separate category. So what is it? Anyone know?--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 13:31, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::If they're not believers, and they're not agnostics/doubters, then they're atheists. Atheism = disbelief. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 14:10, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I find it doubtful that are more atheists than agnostics. Atheists are 100% certain that God doesn't exist. A good scientist is not 100% certain of anything. I think a survey with more clearly defined choices is called for.--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 23:34, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::::Actually it is not true to say, ''Atheists are 100% certain that God doesn't exist'' as Conservapedia's article says; [[Weak Atheism]]. Many more scientifically-minded atheists would follow this point of view for the very reasons you state - ''A good scientist is not 100% certain of anything.''--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 12:37, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::I think the distinction to be made here is between personal belief and what can be proven. It is possible to put forward a definition of God that cannot be tested and is therefore neither provable nor falsifiable, however that wouldn't mean an individual couldn't have a personal belief (or disbelief) in God. If I can be forgiven a pop culture reference, I can't prove I don't live in [[The Matrix]] but I have a personal belief that I don't.--[[User:Boreas|Boreas]] [[User_Talk:Boreas|'''talk''']] 13:34, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm guessing that 100% of creationist are theists...so? Does this invalidate THEM in any way? No, it does not. I don't see how this line of discussion is pertinent or constructive in any way. --[[User:RobinGoodfellow|RobinGoodfellow]] 14:58, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

I assume that Bugler's ignoring of Gnostics such as myself was not an attempt to polarise the community into more easily distinguishable sects. {{unsigned|Scholl}}

== Qualification ==

It is quite clear why Lenski is annoyed at requests for data and questions about the validity of his work. It is that none of those who are asking have any background in biology (please correct me if I'm wrong) and are as such not qualified to evaluate his work.

If you have questions or doubts about the research, then the *only* way you are going to get any useful result is by finding a biologist who perhaps shares your concerns and asking them to evaluate the research. Do you think, as a historian, that you wouldn't be annoyed by someone with no background in your field questioning your research, having apparently not even thoroughly read it? [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 08:24, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

: No, Boatie, I'm confident your suggested reason has nothing to do with it. I requested making the data available for review by the public, including experts: "I'd like to review the data myself and ensure availability for others, including experts and my students."[Conservapedia:Lenski dialog] You can reread Lenski's negative response yourself.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:31, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:: But surely if there are any experts with specific requests then Lenski would provide any additional information that they require, as he has indicated. The fact that he is clearly offended by the initial requests and their implications means that he is now unlikely to cooperate with you, or anyone affiliated with this website, I suspect. [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 09:28, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

::: Boatie, you're awfully naive if think the withholding of the underlying data from public scrutiny has anything to do with anyone being "offended".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:40, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::: I hope you noticed that I didn't resort to petty name-calling. It's not helpful. I didn't suggest that data was being withheld to prevent public scrutiny. Merely I suggested that Lenski is probably not inclined to comply with the demands of a non-expert whose repeated requests may not even be sensible. Note that the report was submitted for peer review, and the paper involved will have since been read by many qualified biologists. [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 09:46, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

::::: Boatie, you're clueless. People withhold data from public scrutiny for one obvious reason: to prevent the public (including experts) from scrutinizing their work. Feigning offense has nothing to do with it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:53, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::: That's simply not true, and has been raised plenty of times, Lenski is not necessarily with holding data from any experts, he's only failing to supply to *you*. Find an *actual biologist* with concerns about his work and maybe things will be different. Further name-calling does nothing to help your argument. [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 10:00, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::: Scientists prefer specifc questions over general ones. In the initial email exchange you had a couple of specific questions that were answered specifically. Asking a general question will only result in "Do you have a question?" Saying "I want to see the data" is not a question. Saying "I want to see the data because I have a question about this specific issue I have" is more likely to get an answer. Prof Lenski has stated multiple times that he would provide samples etc to qualified people if they have questions on his research. Since no one here has demonstrated the required credentials and filed the proper paperwork to obtain a sample of prof lenski's work, this hand waving is all for naught. [[User:Toaster1|Toaster1]] 23:50, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::: Aschlafly, I think you're rather clueless in this matter yourself. I've read the e-mail correspondence and I don't think Lenski is being evasive or deliberately withholding data from you or making claims he cannot back with evidence. When you think he's holding stuff back, you should be specific about what you feel is missing and why you think that is important for the claim and specifically ask for that data. You can run around screaming about something not being true, but that won't help much in the matter at hand. But then again I get the feeling you really don't want the data to be there at all, but rather make sure everyone follows you in believing the data doesn't exist to begin with. You put too much emphasis on the fact Lenski ''must'' be withholding something, without actually stating what it is and why it would disprove his claims. -- (unsigned by User:DeLight) 09:26, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

::::::: We've been extremely specific about which data are being withheld. See [[Richard Lenski]]. And I found Lenski to be quite clear that he's not going to release his underlying data for public review, even though it was publicly funded. Perhaps you think Lenski is perfect and there is no chance of flaws in his work that the public might discover when the underlying data are released, but such a position is obviously absurd.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:35, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::::: Sorry for the late reply, but [[User:DeanS|one of your sysops]] found it necessary to block me following my previous critique. To answer your statement, I don't think Lenski is perfect, I hardly know the man, but I do know what I have read in the correspondence between him and you. I don't agree he's not willing to share his work for public review, because he is willing, yet he has some well-founded conditions that should be met first. This is a lack of willingness to share with ''just anyone'', and rather sensible in science. Do you really think it's wise for all scientists to send samples of their work (especially in biology) to any Tom, Dick and Harry who asks for it, without knowing if they can actually handle the materials safely?
:::::::::Three things about your comment: First, it is a sensible question to ask a scientist for proof of his research when that scientist is getting government funding for his research; second, it is wise for them to send samples of their work; they do send them to other scientists, so why not the general public (unless they have something to hide); and third, you were blocked for a reason, the least of which is a German proxy address to hide your own, which you are not permitted to do so...so bye again! [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 04:25, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::::::: Just to answer a question you posed Karajou "second, it is wise for them to send samples of their work; they do send them to other scientists, so why not the general public (unless they have something to hide)" scientists are liable for the samples they provide. Thus the reason for MTAs and other inquiries to purpose of use for the samples. Most work and materials discovered or used by a scientist are not owned by the scientist, the institution normally has control over distribution beyond the scope of the grant or funding source. It would be foolish for a scientist to hand out potentially infectious material to anyone who asked for it, thus the reason why a qualified institution must used to receive the samples. I work part time for a company that does biorepository services, LN2 -80 and other long term cold storage. We have to maintain a license with the FDA and CDC for the bacteria and viruses that we hold. So to sum up, if the requestor does not have proper credentials for exploring the sample the scientist is legally obligated to withhold said samples till the requester meets qualification.
::::::::::To keep using the tax funded research claim is misleading. The military is tax funded and most of its operations are not open for public, most work by the CDC and HHS is funded by tax dollars and once again is not available for the general public.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:33, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

==MTA==
Did anyone ask Lenski if a MTA is required by MSU to provide his data? Most MTAs are used for specific materials like cultures and such but a few are now requiring them for actual analysis results. Most universities now require specific permissions to be granted for scientific research due to the fear that such information could be used in inappropriate ways. Perhaps Lenski is bound by the university until a MTA is filed or feels that it is a waste of time to supply data that would only be understood by a few people here, which to my knowledge, care not to spend the time to analyze it. I could be wrong but I know I would not supply my test results to anyone who asked for it without understanding what they intended to do with it. I could be held liable for what they did with the information.

As for the length of time for the peer review, it is obvious that many here do not understand the process nor do they understand the difference of peer review of a publication verses replication of an experiment. Most experiments are not replicated for several years due to the need for funding. Peer review of publications is based on application of sound analysis techniques and clear summery of data analyzed. Not an actual analysis of the data. While I do not review papers, my wife does and it is not at all what has been implied here. I have published in a few journals, each with different standards and different times for the publication to go to press. Lenski's experiment is not complicated and only required minimal tests, therefore it would be expected to be a quick peer review of the publication due to the simplicity. If he performed tests using animals, or followed metabolisms then the peer review should have taken much longer. However, due to the few tests that he performed, all of which are accepted standardized protocol for research microbiologists, the need to dig deeper was not required. So to sum up, few experiments, easy study, and simple conclusion equals fast turn around for publication. If you read the paper, Lenski did not make any claims about anything other than the development of the bacteria's ability to metabolize citrate, pretty simple.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:43, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

== Bad motive redux ==

I was blocked for two weeks for this post:

Let's face the truth, there is no real desire here for Andrew Schlafly or anyone on Conservapedia to get the raw data. The reason that this is even an issue is because placing this demand and getting no response somehow makes Lenski look bad and therefore automatically discredits him and his research and therefore the theory of evolution. The position of Mr. Schlafly is that the Bible is inerrant and the Genesis creation story is true. No amount of scientific data is going to change that. So why argue with him? MAnderson 10:05, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Mr. Schlafly has since posted these comments:
“At some point, StatsMsn, an open mind requires admitting the possibility that the data have not been made available because there is concern about what an independent reviewer may conclude from it. Are you open-minded enough to admit that possibility? It's a waste of time arguing with a closed mind, and if you won't admit at least that possibility then this discussion is unproductive”.--Aschlafly 09:00, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
"If I'm reading the dates on the front of this particular paper correctly, I think peer review was a mere 15 days or so. Looks to me like a rubber-stamp process for this subject matter despite making claims that were reported as being newsworthy." --Aschlafly 16:47, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
"Don't pretend that Lenski welcomes independent review of the data." --Aschlafly 15:15, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

He has said these things even though the data and even the E. Coli samples are available to qualified researchers. Really my original post was dead on correct! He doesn’t want the data and merely wants to create the appearance of impropriety on the part of Lenski to discredit him. [[User:MAnderson|MAnderson]] 11:16, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

''Don't pretend that Lenski welcomes independent review of the data.'' I don't think MAnderson is claiming that Lenski ''welcomes'' independent review of "the data", nor does he need to ''welcome'' it in order to act properly. He needs to make it available where it will "allow others to replicate and build on work published in PNAS". It is evident that you do not wish to either replicate the experiment (which, if Lenski made it up, would fairly conclusively prove him a fraud) nor do you wish to review it in any meaningful way (which may build on the work by revealing its faults). That is the PNAS requirement. It appears that Dr. Georgia Purdom of "Answers in Genesis" has plenty of data to perform her intended review[http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/06/14/news-to-note-06142008] (no doubt very negative) of Lenski's research.

''"At some point, StatsMsn, an open mind requires admitting the possibility that the data have not been made available because there is concern about what an independent reviewer may conclude from it"'' Agreed. Can we test that hypothesis? It hasn't been tested so far (unless Dr. Purdom asked for data, in which case its been falsified) because we have not seen any prospective independent reviewer ask for data. You are not a reviewer (independent or otherwise) unless you review and you are not a ''prospective'' reviewer unless you ''seek to review''. Why not develop a plan (with AiG or the Discovery Institute) of just what you are going to do with the data, beyond that already published of course, and ask for the data that lets you do that? Until you have that plan it is abundantly clear that you are not a "reviewer" and have no entitlement to extra (unspecified by you) data. --[[User:Billd|Bill Dean]] 08:50, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

== Why does it matter? ==
Hello Conservapedians-
It seems like you are making a huge fuss about Leski's experiment, as if you do not want it to be true.I mean, of course it should be subject to peer review, but it JUST came to the general public. Give it time. However, why exactly does it matter, anyway?
There are several dozen OTHER recorded examples of the following:
--Speciation
--Beneficial Mutation
--Mutations adding information
So, while important, it is not like Lenski's data shows us anything new.
If you would like examples of such, just ask. I assume, however, that you are already aware of the observations, and
there is something important
{{unsigned|KevinF}}
: It's mainly Aschlafly that pursued this. Many others, including me, disagreed with that course. That was simply the first of several mistakes you made, and the others relate to you having almost no idea of what creationists believe. Do you support the concept of criticising an idea without knowing much about it? Because that is what you are doing. Creationists ''accept'' speciation. They also ''accept'' beneficial mutations. The one that they ''don't'' accept is mutations adding information, because it is ''not'' observed (apart from some questionable claims, such as this one of Lenski's). I won't ask for examples simply because I've been down this road before, of having supposed examples provided, only to have them not stack up when investigated. When Richard Dawkins was asked for examples, ''he was unable to supply any''. And why do you think Lenski's research was cited as answering creationist criticisms? If creationist criticism has been answered so much before, so that this is nothing new, then why make a deal about it as though it ''is'' something new? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:44, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

::While Lenski is certainly being quite snarky in his responses, Mr. Aschlafly does not seem to understand that in an experiment like this, the "raw data" isn't something that can be printed out and mailed. The raw data is ''the actual bacterial colonies with the mutation''. Thus, the raw data is completely useless to anyone who does not have a properly equipped biological lab, and indeed is illegal to provide to anyone without a properly equipped biological lab since E. coli bacteria are a potential disease vector. --[[User:JacieCady|JacieCady]] 19:42, 4 December 2008 (EST)
:::No the bacterial colonies are the samples. The raw data are the uninterpreted measurements and observations. This claim is little more than misdirection to justify not providing the data. If I tell you my car can stop on a dime & I know this because I have tested it, my car and a dime are NOT the raw data. The raw data would be the records of the attempts to stop on a dime including records of where the car stopped in relation to the dime. If I was asked for this data and said that I cannot send you my car because you don't have a lock up garage, I am merely dodging the question.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 08:06, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:::: Well put, LowKey. FYI, a chart summarizing how the data were undisclosed is [[Lenski|here]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:37, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:"When Richard Dawkins was asked for examples, ''he was unable to supply any''"—Oh, give me a break. Do you honestly expect someone to be able to come up with such information on the spot? --[[Special:Contributions/AutoFire|trans]][[User:AutoFire|Resident Transfan]][[User Talk:AutoFire|form!]] 23:09, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
::Good point, AutoFire.--[[User:JackH|JackH]] 17:15, 4 December 2008 (EST)
:::He shouldn't have to "come up" with anything "on the spot". He had claimed the existance of examples many times, he should have already known of ''at least one'', but he couldn't. This is like the editor of a car magazine claiming that the new BMW has many improvements over the previous model, but when asked for one can’t supply any. Nobody would claim it was unfair to expect him to come up with one on the spot.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 17:56, 4 December 2008 (EST)

::::http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uz1CiDDIq4 According to Dawkins he stopped to confront the interviewers. {{Unsigned|Vuiasl}}---22:21, 7 December 2008

*That link goes to a video that supplies no information about the topic. It merely says questions to Dawkins are hoaxes by Creationists, yet doesn't provide one example or proof. --[[User:TK|'''₮K''']][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk!]] 00:56, 8 December 2008 (EST)

:The interview made Dawkins look a fool. Of course he has attempted to explain it away. The CMI website provides plenty of info about this, it even has a timeline showing how much time Dawkins had to come up with something, so even ignoring all of the above "on the spot" is still wildly inaccurate. It was more a case of Dawkins "realising" he might be talking to creationists because evolutionists would have accepted the elephant-hurling without challenge. Also, the interview was ''11 years'' ago and he ''still'' hasn't provided the examples as asked {With the possible exception of Lenski's experiment, which he ''may'' have mentioned. But the [in]validity of that is the subject at hand here in the first place. [[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 18:35, 8 December 2008 (EST)}, so the "on the spot" objection is invalid on that account alone.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 18:28, 8 December 2008 (EST)

::*I'm confused here. Everyone should know by now Dawkins is a fraud. As they should all know my opinion of him. That video didn't seem a bit different from the two times I have observed lectures by him, and he wondered off his prepared remarks. Results were the same as for Obama. Poor. (not Ed) --[[User:TK|'''₮K''']][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk!]] 18:39, 8 December 2008 (EST)
:::Ah but everyone should also know that evolution is an invalid conclusion, but millions believe it to be a "fact". Scripture clearly tells us that people are blinded.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 18:48, 8 December 2008 (EST)
::::What Dawkins does or doesn't do is hardly of any importance. Evolution doesn't rely on him, or what he does and doesn't do in interviews. It falls flat on [[Counterexamples to Evolution|its own]]. [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 18:54, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Conservapedia talk:Lenski dialog

2009-01-08T22:56:44Z

HSpalding: /* Lead author won't answer simple, basic questions */ Eureka!

[http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_talk:Lenski_dialog/archive1 Archive 1]

The discussion below concerns the letters and response set forth at [[Conservapedia:Lenski dialog]]. See also [[Flaws in Lenski Study]].

== Reply to comments in archive ==

: The comments above by defenders of withholding data have been unsatisfactory, to say the least.

: [[Lenski]] says in his published paper: "Z.D.B. and R.E.L. [Lenski] analyzed data"[http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/2008,%20PNAS,%20Blount%20et%20al.pdf]

: So where are all the data [[Lenski]] said he analyzed?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:27, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

::As clearly stated in Professor [[Lenski]]'s second response:

::: ''"Finally, let me now turn to our data. As I said before, the relevant methods and data about the [[evolution]] of the citrate-using bacteria are in our paper. In three places in our paper, we did say 'data not shown', which is common in scientific papers owing to limitations in page length, especially for secondary or minor points. None of the places where we made such references concern the existence of the citrate-using bacteria; they concern only certain secondary properties of those bacteria. We will gladly post those additional data on my website." ''

::If the additional data is not on his website by now, I'm sure it will be soon. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 07:45, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

::: If "the relevant ... data ... are in our paper," as set forth in the above quote of Lenski, then he would not have much data. So don't pretend the data is too voluminous to turn over. The paper is only 8 pages long!

::: In fact, the graphs in the paper suggest to a reader that there is underlying data having greater resolution than a graph can provide, and yet those data have not been disclosed for public scrutiny.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:24, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: The resolution of the graphs are more than sufficient to communicate the results. If the figures didn't provide sufficient clarity for their purpose the authors would have also provided tables. For example, in figure 1 it's clear the culture shifted its growth pattern. In figure 2, one can see that the Cit+ cultures reach a higher density in the media, as indicated by the higher ODs. To a microbiologist, those results indicate that the Cit+ cells can utilize more of the nutrients in the media (in this case, citrate). --[[User:Argon|Argon]] 21:08, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: I'd like to chime in here and give some professional perspective. I am a molecular biologist -- if I asked him to, Prof. Lenski would send me a sample from his bacterial stocks (I have a -80 freezer and know how to work with E. coli). Let's assume for a minute that, like you, I strongly suspected the results of the paper (I do not, but that doesn't matter for this exercise). If this were the case, two of the routes I could take would be to re-analyze Prof. Lenski's data or replicate his experiments. In some cases, data and their analysis are complex, and re-analysis can yield different results than those the original author reached. This is the case for a large-scale association study, for example -- there are tons of data to analyze, and their analysis is not straightforward. In Prof. Lenski's case, however, the data are extremely simple, consisting primarily of 1) OD readings to measure fitness, and 2) colony counts.

:::: OD readings, or optical density readings, are obtained by pipetting a sample of cultured bacteria into a cuvette, sticking that cuvette into a machine, and writing down the number that pops up on a screen. Somewhere in a grad student's notebook (or in his/her computer) is a list of these numbers, and their average and range were presented in the PNAS paper at each generation in Figure 1 (similar data are presented in Figure 2 and Figure 5). So, in other words, the data you see in the paper *are all of the data* save for a second grade computation...which was probably performed by Excel. If you don't believe the data in the paper, then what do you expect to gain from seeing these "raw" data? There is so little to gain that I seriously doubt that PNAS would take such a request seriously.

:::: The meat of the paper, in Table 1, is a presentation of colony counts. These are obtained by another grad student picking up a bacterial culture plate, counting the number of colonies on it, and moving on to the next plate. Again, the raw data are what you see in the paper. What exactly are you expecting here, photographic images of all of the tens of thousands of plates they examined? That is just not done. Why would we go to that level of self-surveillance to please a small, vocal minority of people claiming fraud? The public's interest is not served by spending inordinate amounts of effort and money on this level of surveillance. If the science is correct, his experiment will be replicated.

:::: In sum, as others have tried to explain, there really isn't any more complex data for you to reasonably request. A slightly expanded list of numbers from what's in the paper won't get you anything if you already don't believe the data. And the scientific culture doesn't even come close to expecting photographic evidence of bacterial plates. Your best bet, if you really don't believe the results, is to get an outsider to try and replicate and/or confirm some portion of his results. The easy route would be to ask for a cit+ strain and its ancestor and see if they are indeed cit- and cit+. You could even sequence them to check if the cit+ strain is indeed an ancestor of the cit- strain, but while this would be a perfectly normal approach in a molecular biology lab with impressive resources, the entire concept of evolution is anathema to you, so I can't think of a reasonable criterion you would use to determine ancestry. If you wanted to go the hard route, you could obtain the ancestral strain and grow and measure them for years as Prof. Lenski's lab did.

:::: I hope this has been somewhat instructive for you in explaining why a request for "further data" will not bear fruit beyond the small amount of data that Prof. Lenski says he will make available. And why it is not reasonable to expect further data. I am more than happy to respond to questions or requests for clarification if you would like. -- [[User:Princetonian|Princetonian]] 23:50, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::: For starters, most of the opposition to releasing the data has been the false claim that the data are too voluminous to release. You are making the opposite claim, one which is more consistent with Lenski's paper: there is very little important data beyond what is in the 8-page paper. But that doesn't withstand scrutiny either.

::::: The "meat" of the paper is this, and at a minimum the data should be released for it (pp. 2-3 from paper):

:::::: Evolution of Cit Function in Population Ara-3. The LTEE populations are transferred daily into fresh medium, and the turbidity of each is checked visually at that time. [DATA ON THESE OBSERVATIONS?] Owing to the low concentration of glucose in DM25 medium [DATA?], the cultures are only slightly turbid when transferred. Occasional contaminants that grow on citrate have been seen over the 20 years of this experiment. [DATA?] These contaminated cultures reach much higher turbidity owing to the high concentration of citrate in the medium, which allows the contaminants to reach high density. (When contamination occurs, the affected population is restarted from the latest frozen sample.) [DATA FOR WHEN THAT OCCURRED?] After 33,127 generations, one population, designated Ara-3, displayed significantly elevated turbidity that continued to rise for several days (Fig. 1).[HIGHER RESOLUTION DATA UNDERLYING FIGURE?] A number [DATA?] of Cit clones were isolated from the population and checked for phenotypic markers characteristic of the ancestral E. coli strain used to start the LTEE: all [DATA?] were Ara, T5-sensitive, and T6-resistant, as expected (2) [DATA ABOUT THESE AND OTHER CHARACTERISTICS?]. DNA sequencing also showed [DATA?] that Cit clones have the same mutations in the pykF and nadR genes as do clones from earlier generations of the Ara-3 population, and each of these mutations distinguishes this population from all [DATA?] of the others (30). Therefore, the Cit variant arose within the LTEE and is not a contaminant [THIS CONCLUSION NEEDS TO BE CHECKED BY INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF THE ACTUAL DATA, WHICH I DOUBT OCCURRED IN THE BRIEF PEER REVIEW OF THIS PAPER]

::::: Note, by the way, how the opponents of data disclosure seem to have no idea about what data Lenski actually has, which raises further questions about the merits of the conclusion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:15, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::: I know some people here have claimed that the data are too voluminous to release...I didn't know what they were talking about, which is one reason I chimed in. Anyway, here are point by point responses to each of these cases. Turbidity checking: these data are either in a grad student's notebook somewhere, or were not recorded. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they weren't recorded due to the nature of the data (it's just a visual check of turbidity, and wouldn't be reported in a paper). Low concentration of glucose in DM25: this is a factual statement about DM25 media, not an observation. Contaminants: Same comment as the turbidity checking. Either there's a one-liner in a notebook somewhere ("Flask 25 contaminated, re-grew from stock") or nothing at all, since it's tangential to the experiment. Figure 1: As I already mentioned, the data in Figure 1 are actually comprehensive -- three data points went into each plotted point. They report the range (which give you a max and a min) and they also show you the average, which allows you to impute the third data point. Number of Cit clones, and the following comments except the last: these data are probably recorded in a lab notebook somewhere, since they're rather not tangential to the experiment. In addition, I'm sure they have a frozen stock of each cit+ bacterial clone that they checked, so this is something that could be easily independently verified. Cit+ is not a contaminant: no this would not be a part of the peer review...peer reviewers are not out to find fraud in general. Especially in the inaugural paper of somebody just nominated into the national academy. And the data underlying contamination checking are also extremely simple -- you plate the bacteria on an Ara+ plate and check sensitivity by eye, for example -- so there is no need to verify methodology as long as you trust the source.

:::::: You're basically asking for the lab notebooks of all of the grad students involved in the experiment over the 20 years. The data in these notebooks is going to be, in general, very simple (e.g., the statement "colony grew on Ara-, is a contaminant") since as I mentioned, there is no photographic evidence of this. Additionally, while biotech companies generally have document retention policies as required by law, no such policies exist at the academic level (although specific institutions may have them). A very few labs are run like well-oiled machines -- lab notebooks are kept up-to-date and thorough, and every observation is recorded. This is the ideal, but almost no labs actually achieve it, since most labs are working at 125% speed in an effort to get experiments finished and published.

:::::: If you're really interested in monitoring the quotidien details of these experiments, that falls outside of the scope of what PNAS and professional standards would require Lenski to release, I believe. You're not asking to re-analyze data so much as to oversee the entire experiment for fraud. This would require giving you all of Lenski's graduate students' lab notebooks for an indefinite period of time, which would be quite disruptive, and as I said probably wouldn't even yield the level of data you seem to want. In this case your best bet is to contact MSU and ask for a comprehensive review of Lenski's lab and his notes for this experiment. But without any evidence to point to said fraud, they will certainly deny your request for oversight. Your expectations here just aren't in line with professional standards in the field in the absence of any evidence of fraud. -- [[User:Princetonian|Princetonian]] 10:49, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::: You've confirmed that the strident claims by Lenski defenders here that the data are too voluminous to release were nonsense. We'll see how many of them now admit they were wrong. Let's not hold our breaths!

::::::: But your opposite approach above, which essentially suggests there are no data that can be released, doesn't withstand scrutiny either. Figure 1 is plainly a low-resolution representation of underlying data that must exist. The greater resolution should be released. Similarly, there should be data underlying the essential assertion that a particular sample was not contaminated, while others had been. For example, the paper asserts that "[a] number of Cit clones were isolated." How many were isolated? If those data exist, then it should be released along with the other data. If those data do not exist, then that is even more telling.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:34, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Regarding the questions highlighted by [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] to which [[User:Princetonian|Princetonian]] also responded: Many of the techniques questioned are standard procedures that a trained microbiologist would understand. Let's take this apart by question:
:::::'''''...the turbidity of each is checked visually at that time. [DATA ON THESE OBSERVATIONS?]'''''
:::::This is qualitative observation. Every microbiologist does this when they pull their cultures out of the incubator. The evaluation an experimenter asks: Can you see through the test tube or not? Is the culture denser or lighter than the last time you looked? The reported observations are the data.

:::::: Show us the data. Are you suggesting that no record was kept of these observations??? I hope that's not what you mean. But say so if that is your view.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::I described how the observation was performed. How the observations are recorded is up to the lab or technician culturing the cells.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...Owing to the low concentration of glucose in DM25 medium [DATA?]'''''
:::::A reference to the description of the media is provided in the paper and is included on Lenksi's web pages. I linked to that page recently in another comment. It is general knowledge among microbiologists that nutrient limited cultures will reach a peak density that depends on the concentration of the limiting nutrient.

:::::: Again, show us the data. What was the concentration of glucose and, more importantly, did it ever change?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Consider rereading the paper and pull out references provided. It's there.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...Occasional contaminants that grow on citrate have been seen over the 20 years of this experiment. [DATA?]'''''
:::::Observation. Either they saw contaminated cultures or not.

:::::: No kidding. The point, obviously, is to disclose the data of what they saw. How many is "occasional"? Show us the records supporting that claim, so we can assess the frequency of contamination compared to alleged evolution. At a minimum, it appears that contamination was significantly more frequent than the alleged evolution.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Contamination is a problem every microbiology lab understands and encounters. What matters and what is particularly relevant to this experiment is the means of detecting and controlling for it. They outline the steps for detecting contaminating and restarting the experiment from uncontaminated stocks in their papers and web pages.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...(When contamination occurs, the affected population is restarted from the latest frozen sample.) [DATA FOR WHEN THAT OCCURRED?]'''''
:::::Not relevant for the results. It's just the researchers describing how they restarted the experiment whenever they suspected a contamination. It does not alter the experimental outcome.

:::::: It is relevant, at a minimum for reasons stated in my above response. Also, did the restarting ever result in repeats of the observed contamination?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::They controlled for contamination. If their previous stock was contaminated they would likely return to ones before that last stock. Clearly, they would not want to work with contaminated stocks as it would damage the experiment.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...one population, designated Ara-3, displayed significantly elevated turbidity that continued to rise for several days (Fig. 1).[HIGHER RESOLUTION DATA UNDERLYING FIGURE?]'''''
:::::Higher resolution is not really necessary. The graph provides a ''qualitative'' visualization that starkly reveals that the cultures underwent a change that allowed them to grow to a significantly higher density than previously. They report in the text the actual generation were the change occurred and that seems to line up with the transition in the figure (take out a ruler, if necessary). Their subsequent experiments bracketed the strains from points before, during and after the obvious population transition.

:::::: Your answer here is absurd. Higher resolution in science is always helpful. The precise rate of change among the population would reveal much about what was really occurring. The data must exist to generate the graph. Disclose it rather than obscuring it with a low-resolution graph.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::If one reads the paper, one finds that weakly Cit+ clones arise earlier than the visible transition. Reading the paper one would see that they analyze the emergence times: ''Cit+ clones could be readily isolated from the frozen sample of population Ara-3 taken at generation 33,000. To estimate the time of origin of the Cit+ trait, we screened 1,280 clones randomly chosen from generations 30,000, 30,500, 31,000, 31,500, 32,000, 32,500, and 33,000 for the capacity to produce a positive reaction on Christensen’s citrate agar, which provides a sensitive means to detect even weakly citrate-using cells.'' As for the visible transition: ''After ~33,127 generations, one population, designated Ara-3, displayed significantly elevated turbidity that continued to rise for several days''. Note also that they performed 'replay' experiments (which took up the rest of the paper) to specifically analyze the frequency and times when Cit+ strains could be generated. The last half of the paper contains the work that provides information about the possible nature of the mutations and addresses your question.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...clones were isolated from the population and checked for phenotypic markers characteristic of the ancestral E. coli strain used to start the LTEE: all [DATA?] were Ara, T5-sensitive, and T6-resistant, as expected (2) [DATA ABOUT THESE AND OTHER CHARACTERISTICS'''''
:::::Derived from observation. The phenotypic markers are described elsewhere and the means of testing them are well known by professional microbiologists. The origin of the strain and its markers can be determined by following the references provided. The strain is also referenced on Lenski's pages here: https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/strainsource.html Other information about how they tested markers can also be found starting from here (provided by Lenski): https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/

:::::: Disclose the data so that independent reviewers can assess how reliable the claims are here. The methodology may be "well known" but only disclosure of the data will demonstrate whether the methodology was applied in a flawless manner.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Those are all based on visual observation. Reporting the observation *is* reporting data. Lenksi's group provides information how they performed the tests so that any professional microbiologist would be able to follow the work. The way for someone to test the methodology is to repeat the tests on the strains themselves. Recall that Lenski did say that the strains would be made available to labs. So, for anyone interested in seeing for themselves that "the methodology was applied in a flawless manner", I suggest they go find a friendly microbiologist to request and perform the tests for them.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...DNA sequencing also showed [DATA?] that Cit clones have the same mutations in the pykF and nadR genes as do clones from earlier generations'''''
:::::Report of observation. They sequenced the specified genes and found no difference in base-by-base comparisons. There is no need in this paper to print all sequences side by side as they're the same. The words, "no difference" transmits the same information in less space as showing all the identical sequences side-by-side with the original, previously released sequence. See also the next lines.

:::::: No one suggested that the DNA be published "in this paper," but rather that the data be made publicly available for independent review and verification.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Again, the sequences are available. If someone wants to confirm that the sequencing was done correctly they can request the strains from Lenski and repeat the sequencing. The protocols are published.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...each of these mutations distinguishes this population from all [DATA?] of the others (30).'''''
:::::See reference (30) from Lenksi's paper. It describes how the genes in those populations were originally sequenced. The ancestral sequences were uploaded into GeneBank, a publically accessible sequence repository, and the identifying mutations were presented in the supplemental table published on the PNAS web site along with the original paper.

:::::: That's spelled "publicly", not "publically", and again disclosure of the data concerning the mutations is necessary to verify the claims made.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::If someone wants to confirm that the sequencing was done correctly they can request the strains from Lenski and repeat the sequencing. The protocols are published and Lenski has stated he would make the strains available.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::'''''...Therefore, the Cit variant arose within the LTEE and is not a contaminant [THIS CONCLUSION NEEDS TO BE CHECKED BY INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF THE ACTUAL DATA, WHICH I DOUBT OCCURRED IN THE BRIEF PEER REVIEW OF THIS PAPER]'''''
:::::The authors reported the actual data in a manner that is readily understood and accepted by microbiologists. The data and analysis is not terribly complex or confusing for someone familiar with the field (and quite a few who aren't expert microbiologists). Andy, I've seen little requested that isn't standard practice & generally understood among microbiologists or not already available if one follows the references provided in the paper.

:::::: You're right that the "data and analysis" are "not terribly complex." Which is why the odd withholding the data merely serves to heighten skepticism towards the claims made.
:::::::YMMV. I've encountered no one on the web or elsewhere and trained in microbiology who thinks the data is being 'oddly' withheld. Most of us manage to locate the references and other sources provided.

:::::: The bottom line is that some think that Lenski's claims must be accepted on faith rather than independent verification of the data. That is not science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Just a word about reading the professional, scientific literature: Scientific papers are by the nature of their medium, mostly brief, to the point and highly condensed. Rather than repeat all the background information that others in the field may already know and encouraged to limit the length by journals with page limits, authors provide references to other papers that contain the previously published information. They also use terms that are well-defined within their profession to shorten the text further. One wouldn't expect a layman with no experience in biology to easily digest the paper. To point is not to obfuscate but to simmer the paper down to essentials that others in the field can readily understand. With some effort to become familiar with the underlying & established techniques & science, determined, non-experts can eventually pick up this information. I'd respectfully suggest to anyone *seriously* interested in the paper but not comfortable with the technical details, that they may want to find a knowledgeable biologist willing to explain. At least they should read the entire paper and the additional papers referenced within. Consider asking DI's research institute or Behe for help with understanding the techniques behind the work.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:11, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::: Your sermon is misplaced. Taxpayers paid for Lenski's study, and any real scientist should reject the inexplicable withholding the data underlying its conclusions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:22, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::YMMV but in my view, it's like going to a librarian and demanding they provide something made from paper: Books? Magazines? Newspapers? What type of books? What subjects? My opinion is that if someone: doesn't know what one wants, doesn't appear to understand the report, demands to see 'the data' without appearing to know what they're asking for in the first place or how to process the information, I'm not sure how any experimental scientist would comply with that request. Furthermore, I'd find it odd that the requests persist despite the fact that the paper was indeed published in compliance with establish profession standards and the strains were made available (in compliance with journal and university research policy). Again, if someone thinks the work was done incorrectly they can get a lab to request the strains and try to repeat many of the observations. That is why the materials and methods sections exist in papers: To allow others to repeat and confirm the work.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Unfortunately, there are essentially no real scientists left. Peer review is almost never done with the amount of scrutiny Aschlafly discusses. Reviewers, even for journals with long submission-to-publication times, do not request the original data. When original data are requested, it is by researchers who want to continue the work and write publications of their own on the subject. There just aren't incentives to do thorough reviews.

Aschlafly, I think you're right that review should have been more stringent. I think you're wrong, however, to conclude that an exception was made here. Its true that review time was very short in this case. The total number of man-hours devoted to '''any''' review, however, is seldom more than 40.

What does "real scientists" mean? If it means practicing academics today, it's sadly wrong. Most [[professor values|professors]] are self-centered, and would see true peer review as impinging on their personal freedom. "Who has time," they think, "to transcribe lab notebooks? I've got more papers to publish!" I bet the majority would even resist your request to Lenski. This liberal attitude towards truth is what leads to claptrap like [[Particle/wave duality theory]] and [[COBE|the theory of cosmic microwave background radiation]]. [[User:Drochld|Drochld]] 09:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

: With respect to your comments on peer review, note that there were merely 14 days between the time the Lenski manuscript was sent for review and the time it was confirmed for publication. I doubt even 10 good hours of real peer review were devoted to the Lenski manuscript, let alone the 40 you mention. The 14 days included administrative and communication delays, and business and weekend days. It looks like a "rubber stamp" process to me for evaluating this Lenski manuscript, in contrast to other papers published by the same journal. It seems possible to me that there was no meaningful peer review at all for the Lenski manuscript, and it may be worth making inquiries of the Journal on this point alone.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:44, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::The paper is straightforward and the data clear. Lenski's work is well known within the microbiology community and therefore much of the preceding information is already generally understood (i.e. reviewers don't need to dig through all the references). I can see it sailing through review.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 10:19, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::: In other words, you seem to be saying the latest paper was not given a thorough, independent peer review. I agree with that analysis. In fact, it probably "sailed through" without any meaningful peer review at all, despite published journal procedures claiming to require meaningful peer review.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:08, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::::On the contrary. I see it sailing through review because the experiment is straightforward, clearly reported and very interesting to the field. The techniques are uncontroversial and well understood among microbiologists. Easy reviews proceed faster, plain and simple. That reveals nothing about whether the paper received more, less or the same of scrutiny as the typical paper.

::::Are you familiar with PNAS review policy? I ask because in previous notes you've wondered whether authors submit original (raw?) data in addition to their paper's actual manuscripts. Have you perhaps discussed review policies with other Nation Academy of Sciences members or at least, publishing biologists? It might be more productive than polling anonymous sources on the internet.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:28, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Aschlafly, the purpose of a Peer Review is not to make sure the entire experiment wasn't a massive fraud - it is to ensure that the work adhered to scientific principles and guidelines. In this case, the work was short and did adhere to principal. Lenski has, as required, laid out how the experiment can be repeated. Are you saying that he risked his entire reputation on results that can be checked and refuted by another lab? {{unsigned|Falsehood}}

::::Aschlafly, peer reviews are not suitable to detect all experiment flaws or outright fraud. Reviewers can't always know whether a lab assistent made a mistake or even if the experiment was done at all. The primary goal is to make sure that the experiment can be repeated so completely independent researchers can verify the results. This is the only good verification. A mistake in the experiment means that the data cannot be trusted. That is true for fraudulent data as well. There are several reasons to repeat an experiment. First of all, a groundbreaking result will nearly always be repeated. Scientists want to be sure they can trust the result and not waste years on related experiments. The second reason is to test yourself. A scientist may want to repeat an important experiment before starting their own related experiments. It may also be done to test a new lab or test setup. Thirdly, indications of fraud are an obvious reason. Fourthly, highly complicated experiments that can easily go wrong may be replicated. Fifthly, new scientists are less trusted and more likely to be checked. Now, this experiment is not particularly likely to be repeated. It is not particularly groundbreaking (evolutionary changes have been observed in many other experiments), complicated and there are no indications of fraud. Of course, you/Conservapedia may want to appeal to colleages of mr. Lenski for a repeat of (parts of) the experiment, but I doubt that they will be swayed by your arguments that seem to boil down to: 'I don't understand the science, but I don't like the result, so there must be a mistake'. It would be wiser to point to an actual lack of evidence or methodology flaw in the paper (if it exists), so an experiment can be drafted to test the significance of that mistake. --[[User:Aapje|Aapje]] 07:29, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

== More replies to archived comments ==

:"''Why do you say that it does not support evolution?''" ([[Conservapedia talk:Lenski dialog/archive1#Questions for Aschlafly , not Bugler]] (Asked by JPohl of me):
See my post (now in the archive) dated 23:05, 16 June 2008 (search for that text).

:"''The current living species of coelacanth are not the same as the ones in fossils''" ([[Conservapedia talk:Lenski dialog/archive1#E. coli in our bowels]]) (in a question by Wandering to me)
:"''Modern coelacanths are anything but unchanged. For example, they're roughly three times as large as their ancient predecessors. Of the two known living species, neither are in the same genus as ancient coelacanths. Your statement is ''blatantly'' false''" (Same section) (by Rspeed in a response to Jimxchue)
How do we know that they are not the same species or genus? "Species" is defined in terms of interfertility, something that cannot be determined for fossils. And size doesn't mean much. Great Danes and Chihuahuas are in the same ''sub''-species, but the ratio of size difference is greater than 1:3.

[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:14, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:Hi Philip, I read your post and I don't think it addresses anything other than semantics. The bacteria was standard E Coli, and then after tens of thousands of generations, it started to metabolise citrate, which normally ''distinguishes'' E Coli from other species. That's very clearly the process of changing inherited traits over generations - ie, evolution.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 08:45, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:: I can't help wondering if you skimmed it too quickly and didn't pick which bit I was referring to here. I'll explain it in a different way:
::* According to evolution, there must be millions of information-generating mutations to go from microbes to man.
::* According to creation, mutations do ''not'' produce new genetic information, although ''very rarely'', you might by chance get the odd one.
::Lenski has allegedly found ''one'' information-generating mutation. So which of those two competing predictions does this evidence match the best?
:: I also pointed out two weeks ago on Andy's talk page the following:
{{QuoteBox|It took 31,500 generations before the bacteria acquired a single new ability (even assuming they actually do have some new genetic information). 31,500 generations for humans is around 600,000 to 900,000 years (depending on the average time between generations). Yet humans have supposedly evolved ''hundreds'' if not ''thousands'' of new abilities from their supposed primate forbears in a time span only three to five times that long. So this research can be seen as evidence (not absolute proof, of course) that evolution simply does not occur fast enough for us humans to have evolved, which is therefore ''evidence'' that evolution can't explain our existence.}}
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::There are some flaws in that logic though:
:::*Simple cells likely first appeared 4 billion years ago. Given how many existed simultaneously (an entire planet at some times v. a few petri dishes) and that simpler living beings have shorter lifespans, going from "microbes to man" (or something as genetically complex as man) is really a matter of time.
:::*31,500 generations is not a minimum number of generations for a rare, complex trait to manifest. That just happened to be the case here. Dumb luck could have had significant mutations develop at any earlier (or later) point.
:::*What definition of "ability" are you using here? All of the bacteria also evolved larger cells - would you count that as an "ability"? According to Lenski's work, "enough bacterial cells had lived and died that all simple mutations must already have occurred several times over"
:::*Bacteria are asexual. Animals and plants reproduce through sex, which causes significantly more genetic variation.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:18, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: No, going from microbe to man is ''not'' a matter of time. If you are travelling south from Sydney, how long will it take you to reach Brisbane? Answer: It's not a question of how long, because you are going in the wrong direction. The same applies here: you can't go from microbes to man when mutations destroy information rather than create it. See also [http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/431/ here].
::::: We both know the Earth is round, so the trip is still possible, if not extended. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/infotheory.html This] and [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html this] are good links on information theory.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: Yes, perhaps 31,500 generations just ''happened'' to be the case here. As you say, it ''might'' occur sooner, and it ''might'' take longer. But my argument was based on the ''evidence'' of this example, not on what speculation ''might'' allow for. The ''evidence'' is not ''proof'', but the ''evidence'' in this case is ''against'' evolution.
::::: I'm not following your claim here. The mutation happened, and it is proof against evolution?[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: I'm talking about the ability claimed by the research, to metabolise citrate, that apparently requires new genetic information. Being bigger presumably does not require that, else they would have trumpeted that as well.
::::: They didn't trumpet the metabolisation of citrate as "new information", but rather as a complex mutation that dramatically distinguished it from earlier generations. It would be like coming back to Earth in 100,000 years and finding that humans suddenly have two-foot-long third legs.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: Genetic variation through sexual reproduction is a variation ''within'' the existing genetic information; sexual reproduction does not create ''new'' genetic information.
::::: It varies the gene pool, which allows for different types of mutation and more dramatic diversification.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 12:08, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:31, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::: "''We both know the Earth is round, so the trip is still possible, if not extended.''": So? Like all analogies, it's not perfect. Evolution doesn't go around in circles like travelling around the Earth, so that reply is invalid, and the objection remains: mutations go in the wrong direction.
:::::: "''[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/infotheory.html This] and [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html this] are good links on information theory.''": No, they are not good links at all. From memory of checking the first one out before, it has little of substance. The second is a disagreement over a particular case, not a general look at information, and has some errors in it that I can identify.
:::::: "''I'm not following your claim here. The mutation happened, and it is proof against evolution?''": I said "evidence", not "proof". If you don't understand the difference, read the relevant sections in my [[Essay: Accuracy vs. neutrality on Conservapedia]]. Creationism ''also'' proposes mutations, so the fact that a mutation happened is not evidence favouring evolution.
:::::: "''They didn't trumpet the metabolisation of citrate as "new information", but rather as a complex mutation that dramatically distinguished it from earlier generations. It would be like coming back to Earth in 100,000 years and finding that humans suddenly have two-foot-long third legs.''": The New Scientist article quoted Jerry Coyne saying "it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events, ... That's just what creationists say can't happen.". What creationists say "can't happen" is an ''increase in information''. So if you are claiming that nobody is claiming this to be an increase in information, they you are claiming that Jerry Coyne doesn't know what he's talking about regarding what creationists claim (which could be the case, actually!). As for your example, a short third leg probably doesn't require new information anyway. We already have the information for legs, so failure (mutation) of a switch might result in a third one (it's happened with animals), and another fault (mutation) might cause that third leg to be stunted. So if Lenski's discovery is like this, then it really is the case that it doesn't support evolution, because microbes-to-microbiologist evolution requires ''new'' genetic information.
:::::: "''[Sexual reproduction] varies the gene pool, which allows for different types of mutation and more dramatic diversification.''": That sounds like hand-waving to me, rather than an argument of substance.
:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:40, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::Philip,
:::::With due respect, I see a fairly serious problem with the position you're taking. One of the central arguments against evolution is that mutations ''cannot'' produce new information. Now you're arguing that:

:::::''"According to creation, mutations do ''not'' produce new genetic information, although ''very rarely'', you might by chance get the odd one."''

:::::The problem is that, if it can "very rarely" happen "by chance," then the premise that mutations do not produce new genetic information is simply false. Instead, we're faced with a debate over ''how frequently'' mutations produce new genetic information. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 10:41, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Philip, I see your point about how the creation of new information through mutation does not necessarily contradict creationism at all. However, it hardly seems like evidence ''for'' it; and extrapolating as you did (trying to claim the timeframe for these bacteria applies equally to the supposed evolution of humans) honestly seems like mostly speculation... Which I admit is often overused by evolutionists as well, but it still isn't a good basis for deciding which theory the evidence favors. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 11:27, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

: BenP, it's possible to have both a rule and exceptions to that rule. For all practical purposes, mutations don't create new information. However, that doesn't rule out that, once in a blue moon (actually, far less often), you might actually get ''something'' simple that is new. And yes, I guess that there is then a debate about how frequently mutations produce new genetic information, which is sort of what I've been discussing here, in pointing out that ''in this case'' it took 31,500 generations, and even that assumes that this ''did'' happen, which I think is a long way from being accepted. But the question is not ''really'' how long it takes, but whether or not the extremely rare one is going to be swamped by all the deleterious ones. And especially with more complex creatures, it is easily going to get swamped, especially in creatures with sexual reproduction. That is, even if, once in 30,000 generations, there was the odd information-gaining mutation, then what's the chances that that mutation will get passed on to the next generation? Especially given that this won't be the only mutation being selected for (or against).
: Feebasfactor, why is not not evidence ''for'' creation? If that's the prediction that it best fits, then it ''is'' evidence for it! You're right about the timeframe not applying to humans. Because humans reproduce sexually, and therefore the next generation will not necessarily inherit the mutation, and because natural selection favours ''individuals'', not ''mutations'', then a less-fit ''individual'' will be selected ''against'' even with the odd "good" mutation. So really, it will occur a lot ''slower'' for humans than for bacteria.
: For more information on this, see [http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4473 this] brief description of "Haldane's Dilemma".
: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:27, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

:: It's amusing to me that you cite Haldane's Dilemma, even though it was debunked at the same time it was given that name. As Leigh Van Valen pointed out on page in his paper [http://www.jstor.org/pss/2458906 Haldane's Dilemma, Evolutionary Rates, and Heterosis], significant evolutionary changes occur when the environmental changes cause unadapted organisms have less reproductive success. This holds with evolutionary theory, as there is abundant evidence of large changes occurring in organisms at times where their environment changes and their population is small. Mind you, this is the paper which originated the term "Haldane's Dilemma", so with the exception of J. B. S. Haldane's papers, this is the original source. --[[User:Rspeed|Rspeed]] 16:41, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

: Philip, the massive increase in size is just one (and the most readily visible) aspect of Coelacanthiforme's evolution since the end of the Cretaceous. If you want firm proof, there are significant differences in skeletal structure between the most closely-related ancient and modern species of coelacanth (Macropoma and Latimeria). It is an established fact that modern species of coelacanth are in a separate genus. --[[User:Rspeed|Rspeed]] 15:01, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
:: There have apparently been various ''attempts'' to debunk Haldane's Dilemma, but those attempts have themselves been debunked. In 1992 (well after Van Valen's paper), George C. Williams wrote of Haldane's Dilemma, "In my opinion the problem was never solved, by Wallace or anyone else."[http://saintpaulscience.com/Haldane.htm]
:: "''It is an established fact that modern species of coelacanth are in a separate genus''": Oh? Because you say so? Yet you didn't explain how this can be determined without interfertility tests. No, this "established fact" is by decree, not scientific tests of interfertility.
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:22, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
::: "Oh? Because you say so?" No, because the scientists who know how to determine taxonomy said so. Your argument is unbelievably weak, by that logic humans could be genetically compatible with T-Rex. Rather than simply dismissing everything that disagrees with the Bible, you should probably do some research from reliable sources. The scientific method exists for a reason.
::: That's fine about someone disagreeing with Van Valen's conclusions, but can you share his reasoning? I found Van Valen's debunking of Haldane's Dilemma to be quite logical and it fits with the data (such as Prof. Lenski's experiment).
::: --[[User:Rspeed|Rspeed]] 20:35, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

==Lead author won't answer simple, basic questions==

IMO the paper has no credibility because the lead author of the paper, Zachary Blount, has refused to give straight consistent answers to the following simple, basic questions about the experiment:

(1) -- whether evolution of citrate-eating (Cit+) E. coli bacteria was a goal of the experiment (I noted that a "goal" does not have to be a sure result), and

(2) -- whether the purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (giving insufficient glucose supplies in order to cause alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation) was to favor the evolution of citrate-eating E. coli bacteria.

Blount's refusal to properly answer these questions is discussed in the following article on my blog --

[http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2008/06/co-author-of-e-coli-paper-dodges.html Co-author of E. coli paper dodges questions]

More details concerning Blount's refusal to properly answer these questions are in the comment thread under the following post on Carl Zimmer's "The Loom" blog (note particularly my most recent comments in that thread) --
[http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php A new step in evolution]

Also, I think Andy Schlafly is wrong to request all of the raw data, because (1) copying all of the raw data to send to him would be a huge job and (2) the raw data might not even be in a form that could be readily understood by someone who did not participate in the research. IMO the citrate-eating bacteria are the best evidence supporting the paper (such as it is).[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 18:59, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
: a reading of the blog reveals that Zachary Blount did indeed address the questions that the above poster named and did so clearly. Please read more carefully next time and don't post falsehoods[[User:DeanWinter|DeanWinter]] 19:10, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:: LarryFarma raises an excellent question about whether a goal of Lenski and Blount's project was to generate citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria. (I did not find the answer in the paper.) Did the researchers figure out, after many years of fruitless attempts, how best to promote the percentage of citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria in a population? The details of the data might shed light on how that goal was achieved, if in fact that was the goal. They should turn over the data for public scrutiny so that questions can be resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:33, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
::: Blount's comments on "LarryFarma's" blog make it clear that the evolution of citric eaters was not a goal, but not completely unexpected. The paper, though it was pretty technical for me, seems to indicate that as well. [[User:AndyMann|AndyMann]] 20:15, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:::: If you're serious, then please provide some quotes and links to back up your statements. Also contribute to entries rather than violating the [[90/10 rule]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:32, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

:Reply to Aschlafly's comment of 19:33, 26 June 2008 (EDT) --
:''"LarryFarma raises an excellent question about whether a goal of Lenski and Blount's project was to generate citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria. ('''I did not find the answer in the paper.''')"'' (emphasis added) I asked Zachary Blount to clarify his statements about whether evolution of Cit+ (citrate-eating) E. coli bacteria was a goal of the experiment. He answered by asking me to go on a wild goose chase by reading the whole paper, which has 8 pages of fine print -- this is called "bibliography bluffing." And when people balk at going on these wild goose chases, they are accused of not wanting to learn.

:''"Did the researchers figure out, after many years of fruitless attempts, how best to promote the percentage of citrate-eating E. Coli bacteria in a population?"'' As I said, I asked Blount whether favoring Cit+ evolution was the purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (giving the bacteria insufficient supplies of glucose so as to create alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation), and he did not answer.

:''"They should turn over the data for public scrutiny so that questions can be resolved."'' I disagree with you here, for the reasons stated at the end of my first comment in this talk page.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 05:25, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

:: Thanks for your insightful comments and continued efforts to obtain the truth.

:: It has been conceded, finally, by Lenski defenders that the data are not too voluminous to turn over. The underlying data for Figure 1 in the paper for the population expansion during the alleged evolution of the Cit-plus phenotype, for example, could shed light on whether contamination played a role. There is no legitimate reason to withhold the greater resolution from the public, which funded the study.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:15, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

::::People need to stop asking to "turn over the data for public scrutiny" before they've fully read and comprehended the papers and information released to date. E. Coli don't live off of citrate - it's a characteristic of the species - so there was no "goal to promote the percentage that could do it". The fact that a certain population were able to after after thousands of generations of reproduction in a controlled, monitored setting was the key observation, and Lenski's team is still investigating the specifics of when and how that characteristic was enabled. It reflects poorly on an online encyclopedia that the leadership is still questioning whether sufficient data to understand the experiment has been released. The most relevant data from the experiment is the actual bacteria itself, and Lenski has publicly offered to share samples of them with any scientist qualified to handle them, who follows the proper, professional protocols. The Consevapedia community has yet to see a specific, professional response to Professor Lenski's second letter other than a flippant remark about attitude and a continued insistence that data has not been revealed when it clearly has.

::::I'll probably earn another 90/10 block for this, but when you continue to question Lenski's work while admitting that you've only skimmed the related paper, you accomplish nothing but setting a poor example of intellectual honesty for the students who use CP as a trustworthy resource. With all respect, I would ask that instead, you retain the services of a qualified scientist who can engage in a proper review of Lenski's work, whose could then post an ongoing journal of the review process and its findings here on CP. ''That'' would be an appropriate lesson for the students in the proper application of scientific scrutiny to findings that some find questionable. Godspeed. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 20:20, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::The development of citrate metabolizers wasn't the main intent (see Lenski's early papers) and it's actually tangential in the overall context of the long-term experiment. Zachary Blount describes the purpose of citrate in the media in his responses at Carl Zimmer's blog, The Loom. http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php (see replies #115 & #270). Citrate was not added to be a carbon nutrient in the media but as a non-metabolizable chelator (the three carboxyl groups of citrate can bind certain cations in solution). The recipe for the medium was taken from other microbiologists who developed the recipe as a general culture medium back in 1949. Lenski's description of the DM25 media is here: https://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/dm25liquid.html. Glucose was the intended carbon source. If you read the Lenski article cited by Blount (Phenotypic and genomic evolution during a 20,000-generation experiment with the bacterium Escherichia coli. -- available here: https://www.msu.edu/~lenski/, you'll see the setup and reasons for performing the experiments (An earlier article at generation 2000 is here: http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/1991,%20AmNat,%20Lenski%20et%20al.pdf). Basically, Lenksi wanted to see how mutations arise and move through populations over time. Even if the media and growth conditions remain pretty consistent over time, the populations continuously shift and change. That is because for a bacterium in the experiment the 'environment' is not just made up of the flask and media but also the *other cells in the flask* with which it must compete. This results in a continuously shifting competitive environment as mutations arise in lineages. Citrate utilization was just one of the many interesting variations acquired over the course of the experiment. Read his other papers for more details and a fuller understanding of the open-ended experiment's scope.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 21:16, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::: I looked at the blog and found it to be remarkably uninformative. I saw nothing about Blount and Lenski's purpose, nothing that persuasively ruled out non-evolutionary reasons for the citrate-eating bacteria, and nothing to justify the withholding of the data to reveal greater resolution than provided by the figures in the paper.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:00, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::Blogging has limits, which is why I also provided references to Lenski's other papers, including some of those Blount mentioned would be worth reading.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:37, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::With regard to 'competent scientists' consider that Behe, in his discussions on this topic has not argued about the 'mechanics' and data presented in Lenski's paper. In his review that can be found on the amazon.com website, he calls Lenksi's work 'fascinating' (and means it in a good way).--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 21:29, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

That was strange -- for several hours I was not able to post here, but now I can. Here is my response to Argon's comment of 21:16, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Argon said, "The development of citrate metabolizers wasn't the main intent"

I didn't ask if Cit+ (citrate-eating E. coli bacteria) evolution was the "main intent" of the experiment -- I only asked if Cit+ evolution was one of the original "goals." There is a misunderstanding about what the word "goal" means -- a goal does not have to be a sure result. In searches for the Lost Dutchman Mine and the ivory-billed woodpecker, finding them are "goals." A "goal" can be one of many goals, a secondary goal, a longshot goal, or whatever. And "intent" is not part of the definition of "goal" -- "intent" generally means what one plans to do, but one cannot plan to achieve an uncertain result. BTW, the term "citrate metabolizers" is misleading because the bacteria already had the ability to metabolize citrate but did not have the ability to pass it through the cell walls.

Zachary Blount's following statement in comment #115 under the [http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php New step in evolution] post on Zimmer's blog indicates that Cit+ evolution was one of the original goals of the experiment:

''"When Dr. Lenski started, he figured the citrate would provide an opportunity that the populations might or might not figure out a way to exploit, thereby presenting a potential point of divergence between the populations (this is my understanding - I will need to check with him to make certain I understand this properly)."''

Blount then essentially contradicted his above statement by saying that "the intent of the experiment was never to evolve a Cit+ E. coli variant" (comment #115) and that Cit+ evolution was "not a goal" (comment #122).

Also, the following factors suggest that Cit+ evolution was an original goal of the experiment:

(1) Cit+ evolution had been observed once before. Blount reported in comment #115 under the [http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php New step in evolution] post on Zimmer's blog, ''"there has been only one report of a spontaneous Cit+ mutant of E. coli in the past century (Hall, B. 1982. Chromosomal mutation for citrate utilization by Escherichia coli K-12. Journal of Bacteriology, 151: 269 ï¿½ 273.)"). ''

(2) I and others assumed that a purpose of the glucose-cycling (giving the bacteria an insufficient glucose supply so as to create alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation) was to favor Cit+ evolution. I asked Blount if this was in fact a purpose of the glucose-cycling and he did not answer. I asked what the purpose of the glucose-cycling was if favoring Cit+ evolution was not the purpose, and he did not answer.

Was there a research proposal for this whole experiment that started in 1988, and if so, what does that proposal say, if anything, about my questions? [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 10:24, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:I may be missing something here, but why is the supposed "goal" of the experiment important? It's the important thing the result?--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 11:29, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::British_cons''':''' Suppose a committee is considering this research for an award or a prize and asks the researchers the same questions I asked''':''' (1) Was Cit+ evolution a goal of the experiment? and (2) was favoring Cit+ evolution a purpose of the glucose-cycling? Are the researchers going to answer, “No, it was not a goal — it was just an unforeseen accident. We don’t deserve any credit for it.”

::Also, IMO knowing the goals of the experiment and the purposes of the experimental methodologies are important parts of understanding the experiment. Also, the candor of the researchers is in question here -- as shown above, I did not get straight consistent answers to simple, basic questions.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 12:27, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
:::There are two possibilities. It was the goal. It was not the goal. The result is that they have produced Cit+. If it was the goal then they have demonstrated what they set out to demonstrate. Well done. If it was not the goal then serendipity has favored them. It is no means unusual in science for unexpected results to further the cause of science. Nobody would reject or question them because they were unexpected. Indeed they are even more welcome if they're unexpected because something new has been learned. So again - well done. I don't see the problem.--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 12:45, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::British_cons''':''' As I said, suppose that a committee is considering this research for an award -- wouldn't this research be much less deserving of an award if Cit+ evolution were just an unforeseen accident? Also, the candor of the researchers is in question here -- as I showed above, I did not get straight consistent answers to simple, basic questions. As I noted above, Cit+ evolution had been observed before, so it seems that repeating it was a likely goal of the experiment. Also, I asked about the purpose(s) of the glucose-cycling and I got no answer to that question. Knowing the goals of the research and the purposes of the experimental methodologies are important parts of understanding the research.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 14:07, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

::::Thudden''':''' ''As I said, suppose that a committee is considering this research for an award -- wouldn't this research be much less deserving of an award if Cit+ evolution were just an unforeseen accident?'' This betrays a unequivocal lack of understanding of scientific process and acclaim. Hundreds of world-altering scientific discoveries have been serendipitous: Pauling and Penicillin, Galvani and neuroelectricity, Nagano's discovery of interferon, Becquerel and Röntgen's discovery of radioactivity and X-rays respectively. If you stumble on something marvellous by accident, you receive identical academic acclaim, perhaps only with added envy.
:::::'''Fleming''' and Penicillin (just for the sake of accuracy). [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 17:56, 8 January 2009 (EST)
::''"If you stumble on something marvellous by accident, you receive identical academic acclaim,"'' I disagree -- IMO things discovered by intelligent searching are more highly regarded. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 06:17, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::''Thudden: Your disagreement would be more convincing if it was backed up by evidence, or engaged with the contrary evidence provided.
:::"Identical academic acclaim": Fleming won the Nobel Prize, Becquerel won the Nobel Prize, Nobel Prizes were awarded for the serendipitous discoveries of restriction endonucleases and RNI interference... Not to mention "Eureka!" The list of people who've won the highest acclaim for accidental discoveries is very, very long. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 17:56, 8 January 2009 (EST)

::::''"Your disagreement would be more convincing if it was backed up by evidence, or engaged with the contrary evidence provided."''
::::It is just my own personal opinion -- I have no opinion poll results on the question. Do you have any opinion poll results to back up your statement?
::::I was especially impressed by the way Neptune was discovered in 1846 -- a mathematician predicted its location on the basis of perturbations of the motion of Uranus, and Neptune was found in one night very close to the predicted spot. Also, Pluto was found on the basis of perturbations in Neptune's motion but the search took much longer.
::::You should sign your comments at the end, not the beginning -- when you sign them at the beginning, it looks like you are addressing someone (that is what I originally thought about your preceding comment). [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:06, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

(unindent) Rather than dispute this with you YET AGAIN, can we wait until you respond to criticisms of your position on other websites first? You keep repeating this "no straight answers" argument, and people keep pointing out your error, and you've yet to see this argument through to the end anywhere. Conservapedia is already struggling to maintain its current signal-to-noise ratio, please stop forum-shopping here. [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 14:17, 27 June 2008 (EDT) ''<-knows where all the good sales are...''

:: Aziraphale said, ''"Rather than dispute this with you YET AGAIN, can we wait until you respond to criticisms of your position on other websites first? "'' I have already spent a helluva lot of time responding to those criticisms on Carl Zimmer's blog and my own blog! (see links in my first comment on this talk page) But I have been kicked off of Carl Zimmer's blog, and my own blog gets only about 50 visits per day. In contrast, this talk page is getting thousands of visits per day, so it is obviously a much better forum for publicizing my views.

::''"You keep repeating this 'no straight answers' argument, and people keep pointing out your error."'' And I keep pointing out the errors in arguments that attempt to point out my alleged error.[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 16:18, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:::Ok, fair enough. Enjoy your time here. :) [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 18:05, 27 June 2008 (EDT) ''<-o/~know when to hold 'em... o/~''

::::''"Enjoy your time here."'' I intend to. I never before had such a good opportunity to publicize my views. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 02:21, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::It has been brought to my attention that there may be a problem with your question. You wish to know about the "goal" of the experiment. Is that a reasonable way to ask a question of a scientific experiment? Shouldn't the question be "What hypothesis was being tested?"?--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 10:03, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::How could a random event, Cit+ evolution, be a "hypothesis"? Even Zachary Blount used the term "goal." What is wrong with saying that an experiment has a "goal" (or "goals")? [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:53, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Because according to the [[Scientific method]] the objective of an experiment is to test an hypothesis. Remember that things are not proved in science - only disproved. The objective of an experiment is never to "prove" anything - only to test an hypothesis. If the hypothesis is confirmed then it is strengthened, if it not confirmed it is weakened or discarded. Consequently the fundamental question to ask of an experiment is, "What hypothesis was being tested?" --[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 16:07, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::How would you describe Cit+ evolution as a hypothesis, even assuming that Cit+ evolution had not been observed before (Cit+ evolution was observed prior to Lenski's experiment) ?[[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 21:54, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm afraid that's for you to figure out. As I've said, the only sensible way for you to ask the question you want answered is to form it as a question about the hypothesis. How you manage that is down to you. :-)--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 02:27, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::''"I'm afraid that's for you to figure out."'' It's your idea that it must be stated as a hypothesis, so showing how it can be stated as a hypothesis is your responsibility. Anyway, Lenski could not hypothesize about whether Cit+ evolution could occur, because it had been observed prior to the start of his experiment. All he could do was consider Cit+ evolution to be a "goal" of his experiment. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 05:43, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sorry, I thought you were asking for help. Anyway, the article on [[Scientific method]] ''on this wiki'' states that the reason for an experiment is to test an hypothesis - so it's not my opinion but what this Wiki states. I suppose you could edit the article so this it reflects your view of how science works. --[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 06:24, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::::Reading Lenski's recent paper for comprehension reveals that the hypothesis being tested is that development of the Cit+ strain is a historically contingent process (that is, arising by multiple steps separated over time). The null hypothesis (not supported by the results of the experiments) is that the Cit+ strain arises by a single, exceptionally rare event.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 10:52, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::: ''"Reading Lenski's recent paper for comprehension reveals that the hypothesis being tested is that development of the Cit+ strain is a historically contingent process (that is, arising by multiple steps separated over time)."''
:::::I was aware that one of the original goals of the experiment was to test for historical contingency -- that was the reason for freezing the populations at each 500th generation. My questions were about other things: (1) was Cit+ evolution an original goal of the experiment (remember that this whole experiment started in 1988, long before the study in the present paper), (2) was favoring Cit+ evolution a purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (giving the bacteria insufficient glucose supplies so as to cause alternating glucose feeding and starvation), and (3) what were other purposes -- if any -- of the glucose-cycling. Zachary Blount did not give a straight answer to the first question and gave no answers at all to the latter two questions. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 13:12, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::You continue to dwell on the semantics of 'goal' as though it has some particular relevance to the validity of the research presented in Lenski's latest paper. The experiment was started in '88 to track the evolution of a population of E. coli. The purpose of the 'glucose cycling' is to provide the bacteria with an environment that will favor those mutants that are better able to exploit a limited critical resource. The glucose cycling does not inherently favor the development of a Cit+ strain any more than it favors other potential solutions to the problem - like secreting a toxin to kill your competitors, or faster reproduction to outbreed them, or photosynthesis, or cannibalism, or what have you. There is no other purpose to providing the bacteria with a limited supply of glucose. Citrate is present in the growth medium as a chelating agent and buffer - it was not added solely to serve as a potential carbon source, although it is one. 
:::::::You seem to believe that the reason that Lenski is getting acclaim for this research is just that has isolated a strain of E. coli that can metabolize citrate under unusual conditions - and your response seems to be that he does not deserve praise for this, since he didn't set out with this particular outcome in mind - it's just an accident, if in fact the Cit+ bacteria exist at all. Or maybe you object because you think Lenski somehow 'stacked the deck' in favor of his bacteria becoming Cit+, so the results aren't 'fair' somehow. Or perhaps you think that after 20 years of failing to develop a Cit+ strain of E. coli through selection, Lenski just gave up, genetically engineered such a strain, and then faked his data. If you could clearly state what your suspicions are, rather than simply repeating that Blount won't answer your questions, it would be simpler to address your concerns. 
:::::::This is utterly beside the point, however, because the importance of this recent paper does not depend on the detail of the strain being Cit+ - it could have been the development of a toxin, or some other event that led the new strain to be markedly, phenotypically different from its ancestors in some way. The importance lies in the work that was done to sketch out the outline of how the new trait developed, and in the re-development of the same trait during a re-running of the experiment from ancestral stock. 
:::::::Is it interesting that the trait seen in Lenski's E. coli is the metabolism of citrate under aerobic conditions? Yes. Is it remarkable? Yes, since you can count the number of E. coli strains that can do this on one hand. It's so wild and crazy that it might lead one to question whether the bacteria involved should even be called E. coli anymore - it's that striking a difference from 'normal' E. coli behavior. Was the development of the Cit+ strain an accident? Entirely. Would another Cit+ strain arise if the experiment was completely restarted from 1988? Almost certainly not - Lenski's data suggests that this is a staggeringly unlikely event, dependent on a series of merely overwhelmingly unlikely events. Did Lenski wish to develop a Cit+ strain from the beginning? No man can know the inner mind of another, but I would bet the farm that he didn't see this coming. If I were designing an E. coli breeding scheme with the stated purpose of selecting for a Cit+ mutant, I can think of much, much, much better ways to do it than this experimental protocol. The Cit+ trait is a novelty - an interesting one, one that is remarkable because of its rarity, one that resonates - but the value of the research does not depend upon it. --[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 17:33, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

::::''"You continue to dwell on the semantics of 'goal' as though it has some particular relevance to the validity of the research presented in Lenski's latest paper. The experiment was started in '88 to track the evolution of a population of E. coli."''
::::I am trying to get answers to some simple, basic questions about the experiment. Is there something wrong with that?
::::Also, the "semantics" -- as you call them -- of "goal" are very important. A lot of people have the mistaken idea that a goal is necessarily an expected result or is necessarily an intended result. Just going around telling people that the Cit+ evolution was not a goal can be very misleading.
:::::If you want to expand the term 'goal' to the point that you include unexpected, unintended results then you rob it of all meaning. By your reasoning, my getting into a fatal car accident is the 'goal' of my driving to the grocery store. If you think that 'goal' is a term of art that describes the entire universe of possible outcomes of an action, you are mistaken. If you want Blount et al to admit that the emergence of a Cit+ mutant was '''possible''', given the experimental protocol, then I think that you already have your answer: yes. Was it expected? No. Was the experiment designed from the beginning to favor Cit+ mutation over some other pathway? No.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 23:22, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"The purpose of the 'glucose cycling' is to provide the bacteria with an environment that will favor those mutants that are better able to exploit a limited critical resource."''
::::That statement is too vague.
:::::What part is too vague? The alternatives to glucose cycling are: provide so much glucose that cell growth remains exponential up through the time of the next sampling; provide so little glucose that there is no cell division at all; or use a chemostat setup in which the glucose concentration can be maintained at a constant, arbitrary level indefinitely at the cost of vastly increased material and labor costs to the experimenter.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 12:05, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"The glucose cycling does not inherently favor the development of a Cit+ strain any more than it favors other potential solutions to the problem - like secreting a toxin to kill your competitors, or faster reproduction to outbreed them, or photosynthesis, or cannibalism, or what have you."''
::::The glucose cycling gives an especially big advantage to Cit+ bacteria because they have something to eat after the glucose supply is exhausted whereas their Cit- neighbors do not.
:::::It gives them '''an''' advantage. It's impossible to predict ahead of time how '''big''' an advantage it is, because instead of being unable to metabolize citrate they may merely be terrible at it. If the Cit- cells are better at glucose metabolism than the Cit+ ones are, they may completely swamp out the Cit+ in the early, glucose-dependent phase. Even if the Cit+ cells continue to grow after the glucose is exhausted, they may never completely outcompete the Cit- cells by the time the next population sample is taken. In fact, this appears to be what has happened, as the experiment has shown that two populations of cells originating from the Ara-3 line have reached a temporary equilibrium: a grows-very-fast-on-glucose Cit- population (10%) and a grows-more-slowly-on-glucose-but-keeps-growing-on-citrate Cit+ population (90%). --[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 12:05, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"Citrate is present in the growth medium as a chelating agent and buffer -- it was not added solely to serve as a potential carbon source, although it is one."''
::::Yes, I know it is there as a chelating agent -- but I also want to know if Cit+ evolution was a goal (again, a goal does not have to be an expected result and can even be an unlikely result) and if favoring Cit+ evolution was a purpose or one of the purposes of the glucose-cycling (I also would like to know if there were other purposes of the glucose-cycling and exactly how any other purposes work). The fact that Cit+ evolution was observed once previously adds to my hunch that it was a goal. Also, the bacteria already had the ability to metabolize citrate and just needed to evolve a way to pass citrate through the cell wall.
::::''"You seem to believe that the reason that Lenski is getting acclaim for this research is just that has isolated a strain of E. coli that can metabolize citrate under unusual conditions"''
::::Well, he is getting a lot of acclaim for it, isn't he? The paper has been widely ballyhooed all over the Internet. The Internet has several articles and hundreds of comments about it.
:::::He does not deserve acclaim because he is a farmer who has a goose that lays golden eggs, but because he can demonstrate in rough form how the goose came to lay golden eggs when it's grandparents could not. In fact, he has gone back and re-bred the grandparents and gotten golden-egg laying geese again and again, even though none of his other geese, or even the great-grandparents of the golden goose, can breed golden-egg-layers. The real achievement is not having the goose, it's reproducing it against all the odds, and showing that there's something special about the grandparents compared to the greatgrandparents, even though the grandparents appear to be normal. The fact that many folks, including those in the media, can't get past the 'ohmygoshgoldeneggs!!!' phase is not Lenski's fault.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 23:29, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::''"If you could clearly state what your suspicions are"''
::::Right now I am just trying to understand the experiment. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 20:46, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::::''"I'm sorry, I thought you were asking for help."'' You call that "help"? All you did was clutter up this talk page with your irrelevant "hypothesis" idea. With friends like you, who needs enemies? [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 10:34, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::When did I call it help? I said that I thought you were asking for it. In any event Brossa seems to have clarified the situation.--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 11:38, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::''"When did I call it help? I said that I thought you were asking for it."''
:::::::And you thought -- or seemed to think -- that you were giving it. I am beginning to suspect that you are just a troll.
:::::::''"In any event Brossa seems to have clarified the situation."''
:::::::No, he has not clarified the situation -- see my above response to him. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 13:29, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::I will not stoop to name calling. Goodbye and good luck with your enquiries.--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 14:07, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::::Well, what did you expect? First you introduced an irrelevant topic, "hypothesis." Then you contradicted yourself by first saying ''"I'm sorry, I thought you were asking for help"'' and then saying ''"When did I call it help?"'' [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:42, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::::Mods, can we get a ruling on this? LarryFarma is harassing other users, talking far more than he is making valid contributions, and generally being a troll. If he was defending Lenski instead of attacking the paper, he would have been blocked a long time ago. Can someone please comment on this? I believe we can all make our points without name-calling. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]
:::::::In fact, the only contributions that Larry has made have been to this talk page. Can we get a 90/10 block please? [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]
::::::::Aaronp: Is somebody hassling you? People who don't want to read my comments don't have to read them.
::::::::Also, the 90/10 rule doesn't apply here because I cannot make any contributions to the project page, which is reserved for the exchange of letters between Schlafly and Lenski.
::::::::BTW, I am not attacking the paper -- I am only attacking the lead author's failure to give straight answers to simple, basic questions about it. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 21:17, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
::::::::: Okay, here's my two-bob's worth.
::::::::: LarryFarma, this page was started to question the ''validity'' of Lenski's work and claims. Although I can see how questions about his ''goals'' would be relevant to awarding him a prize, I can't see that they are relevant to the validity of his work. I think that this might be the cause of some of the angst, as some editors are assuming that you are trying to question the work's ''validity'' with an argument that has no bearing on that point.
::::::::: Secondly, Aaronp has a point about the so-called 90/10 rule. It's point is to ensure that editors contribute to the site and don't just argue. That you are unable to contribute to this project page doesn't mean that you can't contribute elsewhere on the site. The rule is not page-specific in that sense. So as Aaronp has called for that rule to be invoked, and as you have only contributed on this talk page, I think that his request is fair. However, I will allow you to make another post or two to wind up your arguments before doing so. Beyond that, I will feel obliged to enforce it.
::::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:35, 29 June 2008 (EDT) (Administrator)

::::::''"LarryFarma, this page was started to question the validity of Lenski's work and claims."''

::::::The opening sentence of my first comment questions the validity of Lenski's work:
::::::''"IMO the paper has no credibility because the lead author of the paper, Zachary Blount, has refused to give straight consistent answers to the following simple, basic questions about the experiment:"''

::::::You say,
::::::''"Although I can see how questions about his goals would be relevant to awarding him a prize"''

::::::That is not the issue here -- the issue here is that the lead author of the paper, Zachary Blount, has not given straight answers to my simple, basic questions about the experiment. If I were a peer-reviewer of the paper or in the audience at a presentation of the paper at a scientific conference, would he be dodging my questions? And my questions are not just about goals -- for example, I also would like to know the purposes of the glucose-cycling (alternating glucose feeding and glucose starvation). These things are all part of understanding the experiment. Also, what does the original research proposal -- if there is one -- say about the goals and methodologies of the experiment? Is Lenski willing to release that proposal?

:::::: ''"That you are unable to contribute to this project page doesn't mean that you can't contribute elsewhere on the site."''

::::::I am new to the site and therefore have not had an opportunity to contribute elsewhere on the site. Would you like me to write an article about co-evolution? All I would have to do would just copy-and-paste from my blog's several articles about co-evolution. I have found the issues of co-evolution to be a very effective challenge to evolution theory.

::::::''" I will allow you to make another post or two to wind up your arguments before doing so. Beyond that, I will feel obliged to enforce it."''

::::::Are you willing, then, to censor all future comments that attack my positions? If comments attacking my positions are posted in the future here, then why shouldn't I be allowed to defend myself? In fact, while I was writing this comment, Brossa posted three comments attacking my positions.

::::::Also, how do you intend to "enforce" the 90/10 rule -- by IP address blocking? That is often ineffective and also often unintentionally blocks other Internet users who share the same ISP proxy.

::::::BTW, I am very annoyed that Aaronp hypocritically called me a "troll" while criticizing me for using that name to insult another commenter. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 01:14, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::: Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear in some of my comments. The first part of my message was not as an administrator, but just to try and clarify the issues. I didn't mean to suggest that you hadn't addressed the validity of his claims. It was meant simply to point out that some may be misunderstanding the point of your comments. And I'm not saying that the questions you are raising are not legitimate questions to raise.
::::::: It's not true to say that you "have not had an opportunity to contribute elsewhere on the site". You've had opportunity every time you've edited.
::::::: We do allow copying of your own work. There is a template available to note that it is your own work. And of course it can be edited by others, as is the case with all articles.
::::::: If you stop making arguments, your critics will stop disagreeing with you. Yes, it will likely mean that they will get the last word, and that might be unfortunate, but that's not going to be reason to ignore the so-called 90/10 rule.
::::::: I'm not suggesting that you are the only one in the wrong here. Uncivil language happens a fair bit. But that's peripheral to the issue I'm discussing here.
::::::: I've unblocked you, because it wasn't fair for you to be blocked for 90/10 when I'd given you a warning and permission to make one or two more posts, but you used one on responding to me, so that gives you one left to respond to your critics. And fair warning: I've referred to the 90/10 rule as the "so-called" 90/10 rule, because it's not a rule against precisely 90% talk vs. 10% contributions, but a rule against "unproductive activity", with 90/10 being an ''example'' of that. So simply making the odd article edit or posting the odd copied article will not necessarily avoid that rule. It's something that we administrators make a judgement on, and others will make it more readily that I will.
::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:51, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::''"I've unblocked you, because it wasn't fair for you to be blocked for 90/10 when I'd given you a warning and permission to make one or two more posts, but you used one on responding to me, so that gives you one left to respond to your critics."''

:::::That reminds me of the following lawyer joke:
:::::Customer: What are your rates?
:::::Lawyer: $100 for three questions.
:::::Customer: Isn't that kind of steep?
:::::Lawyer: Yes. What is your third question?

:::::''"If you stop making arguments, your critics will stop disagreeing with you. Yes, it will likely mean that they will get the last word"''

:::::Almost all of my arguments here have been answers to my critics. What is at stake here is my right to answer critics. And the reason why I have been making more comments here than other commenters is that other commenters have been using tag-team tactics against me. Giving me just one more opportunity to answer attacks is unacceptable because those attacks are continuing and will continue. And how do I know that other commenters here are not violating the 90/10 rule? Am I being singled out because of Aaronp's rude complaint?

:::::''"It's not true to say that you "have not had an opportunity to contribute elsewhere on the site". You've had opportunity every time you've edited."''

:::::I would have liked to make some contributions to Conservapedia articles, but I now have mixed feelings about Conservapedia because of the 90/10 rule, an arbitrary and unfair rule which is being used to prevent me from defending myself here. I gave up on Wikipedia a long time ago because of its arbitrary and unfair rules and practices, and I am now seeing that Conservapedia is no better.

:::::Anyway, we can debate my questions here until doomsday, but nothing can excuse Zachary Blount's failure to give straight answers to those questions. [[User:LarryFarma|LarryFarma]] 15:26, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::While I completely agree with you that the 90/10 rule is somewhat intimidating (I even refrained from removing wikilinks to salted articles from talk pages because I feared that a casual inspection would make those edits look like "talk, talk, talk"!), it should be said that so far, 20 of your 20 edits were on this page. In other words, your contributions outside of this discussion amount to ZERO. This is an encyclopedia project (or at least it says so) and not a discussion forum. Making encyclopedia edits should be your first priority, not an afterthought. If I remember correctly (I have only paid little attention to this trainwreck), people with far better ratios also received 90/10 blocks for making just a few posts here. You on the other hand were given ''edit rights'' just so you could debate here. Look at me, I got more than a 100 edits (according to My Preferences), most of them non-talk, and I still can't edit at night. You have been treated ''extremely'' well, all things considered. It's time that you actually contribute to the site's primary purpose: Building an encyclopedia. --[[User:KevinM|KevinM]] 15:42, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

== removal of content from this page removes context of Lenski's second reply ==
I'm sure it's an oversight but Lenski, in his second letter, made several direct references to the discussion that has been removed from this page. Some of his comments thus appear inappropriately to lack context. I'm sure you did not intend to remove significant parts of this debate, especially when the result seems so one-sided.[[User:AndyMann|AndyMann]] 20:09, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
: Yes, it was an oversight. It was archived, but the archive was not linked to on this page. It has since been linked. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:53, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

==Archive Link?==

Can a link be provided to the archive for this page? Thanks. --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 20:48, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Oops. Did my edits delete the earlier sections? If so, I'm sorry. Could someone restore the original? --[[User:Argon|Argon]]
:No, your edits were not a problem. It was the edits of those individuals who decided to use this talk page as an attack forum. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:02, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

I read this page a while ago - Lensky and ASchaffly's two-and-fro, and have since returned. Why is it that ASchaffly's second letter this time seems to have been edited to be a lot more polite than when I first read it? It makes Lenski's second reply seem unnecessarily rude. When I first read this I felt his tone was justified, now it seems out of place.
:I don't think the letter has been changed at all. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 22:54, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

== Whence Lenski? ==

Lenski's article was published in the PNAS, which is from the National Academy of Sciences. Just [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22national+academy+of+sciences%22+god Google their name and "god"] and see why they care so much about "proving" evolution: 93% are atheists! Maybe PNAS isn't a professional organization at all, but a fraternity designed to influence American public policy away from Christian principles. [http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html] [http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3506.asp] {{unsigned|Drochld}}

:I'm a little confused about the terminology of the survey. According to the 1998 figures, 7% had "personal belief", 72% had "personal disbelief", and 21% had "doubt (presumably equivalent to atheism) or agnosticism". I know what atheism and agnosticism are, but what does personal disbelief mean in this case? It sounds like agnosticism, but agnosticism is in a separate category. So what is it? Anyone know?--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 13:31, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::If they're not believers, and they're not agnostics/doubters, then they're atheists. Atheism = disbelief. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 14:10, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
:::I find it doubtful that are more atheists than agnostics. Atheists are 100% certain that God doesn't exist. A good scientist is not 100% certain of anything. I think a survey with more clearly defined choices is called for.--[[User:Frey|Frey]] 23:34, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
::::Actually it is not true to say, ''Atheists are 100% certain that God doesn't exist'' as Conservapedia's article says; [[Weak Atheism]]. Many more scientifically-minded atheists would follow this point of view for the very reasons you state - ''A good scientist is not 100% certain of anything.''--[[User:British_cons|British_cons]] [[User_talk:British_cons|(talk)]] 12:37, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::I think the distinction to be made here is between personal belief and what can be proven. It is possible to put forward a definition of God that cannot be tested and is therefore neither provable nor falsifiable, however that wouldn't mean an individual couldn't have a personal belief (or disbelief) in God. If I can be forgiven a pop culture reference, I can't prove I don't live in [[The Matrix]] but I have a personal belief that I don't.--[[User:Boreas|Boreas]] [[User_Talk:Boreas|'''talk''']] 13:34, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm guessing that 100% of creationist are theists...so? Does this invalidate THEM in any way? No, it does not. I don't see how this line of discussion is pertinent or constructive in any way. --[[User:RobinGoodfellow|RobinGoodfellow]] 14:58, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

I assume that Bugler's ignoring of Gnostics such as myself was not an attempt to polarise the community into more easily distinguishable sects. {{unsigned|Scholl}}

== Qualification ==

It is quite clear why Lenski is annoyed at requests for data and questions about the validity of his work. It is that none of those who are asking have any background in biology (please correct me if I'm wrong) and are as such not qualified to evaluate his work.

If you have questions or doubts about the research, then the *only* way you are going to get any useful result is by finding a biologist who perhaps shares your concerns and asking them to evaluate the research. Do you think, as a historian, that you wouldn't be annoyed by someone with no background in your field questioning your research, having apparently not even thoroughly read it? [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 08:24, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

: No, Boatie, I'm confident your suggested reason has nothing to do with it. I requested making the data available for review by the public, including experts: "I'd like to review the data myself and ensure availability for others, including experts and my students."[Conservapedia:Lenski dialog] You can reread Lenski's negative response yourself.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:31, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:: But surely if there are any experts with specific requests then Lenski would provide any additional information that they require, as he has indicated. The fact that he is clearly offended by the initial requests and their implications means that he is now unlikely to cooperate with you, or anyone affiliated with this website, I suspect. [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 09:28, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

::: Boatie, you're awfully naive if think the withholding of the underlying data from public scrutiny has anything to do with anyone being "offended".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:40, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::: I hope you noticed that I didn't resort to petty name-calling. It's not helpful. I didn't suggest that data was being withheld to prevent public scrutiny. Merely I suggested that Lenski is probably not inclined to comply with the demands of a non-expert whose repeated requests may not even be sensible. Note that the report was submitted for peer review, and the paper involved will have since been read by many qualified biologists. [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 09:46, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

::::: Boatie, you're clueless. People withhold data from public scrutiny for one obvious reason: to prevent the public (including experts) from scrutinizing their work. Feigning offense has nothing to do with it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:53, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::: That's simply not true, and has been raised plenty of times, Lenski is not necessarily with holding data from any experts, he's only failing to supply to *you*. Find an *actual biologist* with concerns about his work and maybe things will be different. Further name-calling does nothing to help your argument. [[User:Boatie|Boatie]] 10:00, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::: Scientists prefer specifc questions over general ones. In the initial email exchange you had a couple of specific questions that were answered specifically. Asking a general question will only result in "Do you have a question?" Saying "I want to see the data" is not a question. Saying "I want to see the data because I have a question about this specific issue I have" is more likely to get an answer. Prof Lenski has stated multiple times that he would provide samples etc to qualified people if they have questions on his research. Since no one here has demonstrated the required credentials and filed the proper paperwork to obtain a sample of prof lenski's work, this hand waving is all for naught. [[User:Toaster1|Toaster1]] 23:50, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::: Aschlafly, I think you're rather clueless in this matter yourself. I've read the e-mail correspondence and I don't think Lenski is being evasive or deliberately withholding data from you or making claims he cannot back with evidence. When you think he's holding stuff back, you should be specific about what you feel is missing and why you think that is important for the claim and specifically ask for that data. You can run around screaming about something not being true, but that won't help much in the matter at hand. But then again I get the feeling you really don't want the data to be there at all, but rather make sure everyone follows you in believing the data doesn't exist to begin with. You put too much emphasis on the fact Lenski ''must'' be withholding something, without actually stating what it is and why it would disprove his claims. -- (unsigned by User:DeLight) 09:26, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

::::::: We've been extremely specific about which data are being withheld. See [[Richard Lenski]]. And I found Lenski to be quite clear that he's not going to release his underlying data for public review, even though it was publicly funded. Perhaps you think Lenski is perfect and there is no chance of flaws in his work that the public might discover when the underlying data are released, but such a position is obviously absurd.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:35, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::::: Sorry for the late reply, but [[User:DeanS|one of your sysops]] found it necessary to block me following my previous critique. To answer your statement, I don't think Lenski is perfect, I hardly know the man, but I do know what I have read in the correspondence between him and you. I don't agree he's not willing to share his work for public review, because he is willing, yet he has some well-founded conditions that should be met first. This is a lack of willingness to share with ''just anyone'', and rather sensible in science. Do you really think it's wise for all scientists to send samples of their work (especially in biology) to any Tom, Dick and Harry who asks for it, without knowing if they can actually handle the materials safely?
:::::::::Three things about your comment: First, it is a sensible question to ask a scientist for proof of his research when that scientist is getting government funding for his research; second, it is wise for them to send samples of their work; they do send them to other scientists, so why not the general public (unless they have something to hide); and third, you were blocked for a reason, the least of which is a German proxy address to hide your own, which you are not permitted to do so...so bye again! [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 04:25, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

:::::::::: Just to answer a question you posed Karajou "second, it is wise for them to send samples of their work; they do send them to other scientists, so why not the general public (unless they have something to hide)" scientists are liable for the samples they provide. Thus the reason for MTAs and other inquiries to purpose of use for the samples. Most work and materials discovered or used by a scientist are not owned by the scientist, the institution normally has control over distribution beyond the scope of the grant or funding source. It would be foolish for a scientist to hand out potentially infectious material to anyone who asked for it, thus the reason why a qualified institution must used to receive the samples. I work part time for a company that does biorepository services, LN2 -80 and other long term cold storage. We have to maintain a license with the FDA and CDC for the bacteria and viruses that we hold. So to sum up, if the requestor does not have proper credentials for exploring the sample the scientist is legally obligated to withhold said samples till the requester meets qualification.
::::::::::To keep using the tax funded research claim is misleading. The military is tax funded and most of its operations are not open for public, most work by the CDC and HHS is funded by tax dollars and once again is not available for the general public.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:33, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

==MTA==
Did anyone ask Lenski if a MTA is required by MSU to provide his data? Most MTAs are used for specific materials like cultures and such but a few are now requiring them for actual analysis results. Most universities now require specific permissions to be granted for scientific research due to the fear that such information could be used in inappropriate ways. Perhaps Lenski is bound by the university until a MTA is filed or feels that it is a waste of time to supply data that would only be understood by a few people here, which to my knowledge, care not to spend the time to analyze it. I could be wrong but I know I would not supply my test results to anyone who asked for it without understanding what they intended to do with it. I could be held liable for what they did with the information.

As for the length of time for the peer review, it is obvious that many here do not understand the process nor do they understand the difference of peer review of a publication verses replication of an experiment. Most experiments are not replicated for several years due to the need for funding. Peer review of publications is based on application of sound analysis techniques and clear summery of data analyzed. Not an actual analysis of the data. While I do not review papers, my wife does and it is not at all what has been implied here. I have published in a few journals, each with different standards and different times for the publication to go to press. Lenski's experiment is not complicated and only required minimal tests, therefore it would be expected to be a quick peer review of the publication due to the simplicity. If he performed tests using animals, or followed metabolisms then the peer review should have taken much longer. However, due to the few tests that he performed, all of which are accepted standardized protocol for research microbiologists, the need to dig deeper was not required. So to sum up, few experiments, easy study, and simple conclusion equals fast turn around for publication. If you read the paper, Lenski did not make any claims about anything other than the development of the bacteria's ability to metabolize citrate, pretty simple.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:43, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

== Bad motive redux ==

I was blocked for two weeks for this post:

Let's face the truth, there is no real desire here for Andrew Schlafly or anyone on Conservapedia to get the raw data. The reason that this is even an issue is because placing this demand and getting no response somehow makes Lenski look bad and therefore automatically discredits him and his research and therefore the theory of evolution. The position of Mr. Schlafly is that the Bible is inerrant and the Genesis creation story is true. No amount of scientific data is going to change that. So why argue with him? MAnderson 10:05, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Mr. Schlafly has since posted these comments:
“At some point, StatsMsn, an open mind requires admitting the possibility that the data have not been made available because there is concern about what an independent reviewer may conclude from it. Are you open-minded enough to admit that possibility? It's a waste of time arguing with a closed mind, and if you won't admit at least that possibility then this discussion is unproductive”.--Aschlafly 09:00, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
"If I'm reading the dates on the front of this particular paper correctly, I think peer review was a mere 15 days or so. Looks to me like a rubber-stamp process for this subject matter despite making claims that were reported as being newsworthy." --Aschlafly 16:47, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
"Don't pretend that Lenski welcomes independent review of the data." --Aschlafly 15:15, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

He has said these things even though the data and even the E. Coli samples are available to qualified researchers. Really my original post was dead on correct! He doesn’t want the data and merely wants to create the appearance of impropriety on the part of Lenski to discredit him. [[User:MAnderson|MAnderson]] 11:16, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

''Don't pretend that Lenski welcomes independent review of the data.'' I don't think MAnderson is claiming that Lenski ''welcomes'' independent review of "the data", nor does he need to ''welcome'' it in order to act properly. He needs to make it available where it will "allow others to replicate and build on work published in PNAS". It is evident that you do not wish to either replicate the experiment (which, if Lenski made it up, would fairly conclusively prove him a fraud) nor do you wish to review it in any meaningful way (which may build on the work by revealing its faults). That is the PNAS requirement. It appears that Dr. Georgia Purdom of "Answers in Genesis" has plenty of data to perform her intended review[http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/06/14/news-to-note-06142008] (no doubt very negative) of Lenski's research.

''"At some point, StatsMsn, an open mind requires admitting the possibility that the data have not been made available because there is concern about what an independent reviewer may conclude from it"'' Agreed. Can we test that hypothesis? It hasn't been tested so far (unless Dr. Purdom asked for data, in which case its been falsified) because we have not seen any prospective independent reviewer ask for data. You are not a reviewer (independent or otherwise) unless you review and you are not a ''prospective'' reviewer unless you ''seek to review''. Why not develop a plan (with AiG or the Discovery Institute) of just what you are going to do with the data, beyond that already published of course, and ask for the data that lets you do that? Until you have that plan it is abundantly clear that you are not a "reviewer" and have no entitlement to extra (unspecified by you) data. --[[User:Billd|Bill Dean]] 08:50, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

== Why does it matter? ==
Hello Conservapedians-
It seems like you are making a huge fuss about Leski's experiment, as if you do not want it to be true.I mean, of course it should be subject to peer review, but it JUST came to the general public. Give it time. However, why exactly does it matter, anyway?
There are several dozen OTHER recorded examples of the following:
--Speciation
--Beneficial Mutation
--Mutations adding information
So, while important, it is not like Lenski's data shows us anything new.
If you would like examples of such, just ask. I assume, however, that you are already aware of the observations, and
there is something important
{{unsigned|KevinF}}
: It's mainly Aschlafly that pursued this. Many others, including me, disagreed with that course. That was simply the first of several mistakes you made, and the others relate to you having almost no idea of what creationists believe. Do you support the concept of criticising an idea without knowing much about it? Because that is what you are doing. Creationists ''accept'' speciation. They also ''accept'' beneficial mutations. The one that they ''don't'' accept is mutations adding information, because it is ''not'' observed (apart from some questionable claims, such as this one of Lenski's). I won't ask for examples simply because I've been down this road before, of having supposed examples provided, only to have them not stack up when investigated. When Richard Dawkins was asked for examples, ''he was unable to supply any''. And why do you think Lenski's research was cited as answering creationist criticisms? If creationist criticism has been answered so much before, so that this is nothing new, then why make a deal about it as though it ''is'' something new? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:44, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

::While Lenski is certainly being quite snarky in his responses, Mr. Aschlafly does not seem to understand that in an experiment like this, the "raw data" isn't something that can be printed out and mailed. The raw data is ''the actual bacterial colonies with the mutation''. Thus, the raw data is completely useless to anyone who does not have a properly equipped biological lab, and indeed is illegal to provide to anyone without a properly equipped biological lab since E. coli bacteria are a potential disease vector. --[[User:JacieCady|JacieCady]] 19:42, 4 December 2008 (EST)
:::No the bacterial colonies are the samples. The raw data are the uninterpreted measurements and observations. This claim is little more than misdirection to justify not providing the data. If I tell you my car can stop on a dime & I know this because I have tested it, my car and a dime are NOT the raw data. The raw data would be the records of the attempts to stop on a dime including records of where the car stopped in relation to the dime. If I was asked for this data and said that I cannot send you my car because you don't have a lock up garage, I am merely dodging the question.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 08:06, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:::: Well put, LowKey. FYI, a chart summarizing how the data were undisclosed is [[Lenski|here]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:37, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:"When Richard Dawkins was asked for examples, ''he was unable to supply any''"—Oh, give me a break. Do you honestly expect someone to be able to come up with such information on the spot? --[[Special:Contributions/AutoFire|trans]][[User:AutoFire|Resident Transfan]][[User Talk:AutoFire|form!]] 23:09, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
::Good point, AutoFire.--[[User:JackH|JackH]] 17:15, 4 December 2008 (EST)
:::He shouldn't have to "come up" with anything "on the spot". He had claimed the existance of examples many times, he should have already known of ''at least one'', but he couldn't. This is like the editor of a car magazine claiming that the new BMW has many improvements over the previous model, but when asked for one can’t supply any. Nobody would claim it was unfair to expect him to come up with one on the spot.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 17:56, 4 December 2008 (EST)

::::http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uz1CiDDIq4 According to Dawkins he stopped to confront the interviewers. {{Unsigned|Vuiasl}}---22:21, 7 December 2008

*That link goes to a video that supplies no information about the topic. It merely says questions to Dawkins are hoaxes by Creationists, yet doesn't provide one example or proof. --[[User:TK|'''₮K''']][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk!]] 00:56, 8 December 2008 (EST)

:The interview made Dawkins look a fool. Of course he has attempted to explain it away. The CMI website provides plenty of info about this, it even has a timeline showing how much time Dawkins had to come up with something, so even ignoring all of the above "on the spot" is still wildly inaccurate. It was more a case of Dawkins "realising" he might be talking to creationists because evolutionists would have accepted the elephant-hurling without challenge. Also, the interview was ''11 years'' ago and he ''still'' hasn't provided the examples as asked {With the possible exception of Lenski's experiment, which he ''may'' have mentioned. But the [in]validity of that is the subject at hand here in the first place. [[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 18:35, 8 December 2008 (EST)}, so the "on the spot" objection is invalid on that account alone.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 18:28, 8 December 2008 (EST)

::*I'm confused here. Everyone should know by now Dawkins is a fraud. As they should all know my opinion of him. That video didn't seem a bit different from the two times I have observed lectures by him, and he wondered off his prepared remarks. Results were the same as for Obama. Poor. (not Ed) --[[User:TK|'''₮K''']][[User_Talk:TK|/Talk!]] 18:39, 8 December 2008 (EST)
:::Ah but everyone should also know that evolution is an invalid conclusion, but millions believe it to be a "fact". Scripture clearly tells us that people are blinded.[[User:LowKey|LowKey]] 18:48, 8 December 2008 (EST)
::::What Dawkins does or doesn't do is hardly of any importance. Evolution doesn't rely on him, or what he does and doesn't do in interviews. It falls flat on [[Counterexamples to Evolution|its own]]. [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 18:54, 8 December 2008 (EST)

John Major

2009-01-06T21:40:35Z

HSpalding:

{{Prime Minister
|image=John Major.jpg
|seq=72
|term_start=November 29 1990
|term_end=May 2 1997
|party=Conservative Party
|previous=Margaret Thatcher
|next=Tony Blair
|birth_date=March 29 1943
|birth_place=Carshalton
|spouse=Norma Major
|spouse2=
|religion=[[Anglican]]
}}
'''Sir John Major''', KG, CH, PC (March 29 1943) was the [[Prime Minister]] of [[the United Kingdom]] from November 1990 to May 1997, succeeding [[Margaret Thatcher]] and succeeded by [[Tony Blair]].

Major was elected leader of the British [[Conservative Party]], and hence Prime Minister, following the resignation of [[Margaret Thatcher]]. He was a relatively unknown figure at the time, but he was seen by many, including Lady Thatcher herself, as being firmly on the right of centre (or, at least, as being more conservative then his relatively [[liberal]] main opponent, [[Michael Heseltine]], the man who had brought Lady Thatcher down). He subsequently disappointed many in his party by his support for the [[Maastricht Treaty]] and the integration of Britain with the [[European Union]] that it brought about. Lady Thatcher criticised Major's European policy both publicly and in private.

Following the Conservatives' surprise victory in the 1992 general election, the popularity both of the party and of Major himself fell dramatically, particularly after a financial crisis in September 1992 known as [[Black Wednesday]], in which the [[Pound]] was forced out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM). Major's approval ratings remained in the doldrums for the remainder of his term in office, and in the May 1997 general election the Conservatives suffered one of their heaviest defeats in history against the newly revamped Labour Party of [[Tony Blair]]. Major was subsequently replaced as Prime Minister by [[Tony Blair]] of the [[Labour Party]] and as leader of the Conservative Party by [[William Hague]].

Although a very competent politician and a capable Prime Minister, Major's most serious mistake was failing to control the political divisions and infighting in his party, which lead to a needlessly heavy defeat in the 1997 election. Assessment of the significance of Major's premiership has gradually risen since he left office. In particular, his role in bringing together the political parties from different traditions is increasingly seen as crucial in creating the conditions for peaceful self-rule in [[Northern Ireland]], while he is recognised to have made substantial progress in making government agencies more accountable to the public. The latter achievements stand in sharp contrast to the subsequent efforts of the [[Tony Blair|Blair]] government to diminish accountability.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Major, John}}
[[Category:United Kingdom Prime Ministers]]

John Major

2009-01-06T21:39:48Z

HSpalding: More balanced historical assessment

{{Prime Minister
|image=John Major.jpg
|seq=72
|term_start=November 29 1990
|term_end=May 2 1997
|party=Conservative Party
|previous=Margaret Thatcher
|next=Tony Blair
|birth_date=March 29 1943
|birth_place=Carshalton
|spouse=Norma Major
|spouse2=
|religion=[[Anglican]]
}}
'''Sir John Major''', KG, CH, PC (March 29 1943) was the [[Prime Minister]] of [[the United Kingdom]] from November 1990 to May 1997, succeeding [[Margaret Thatcher]] and succeeded by [[Tony Blair]].

Major was elected leader of the British [[Conservative Party]], and hence Prime Minister, following the resignation of [[Margaret Thatcher]]. He was a relatively unknown figure at the time, but he was seen by many, including Lady Thatcher herself, as being firmly on the right of centre (or, at least, as being more conservative then his relatively [[liberal]] main opponent, [[Michael Heseltine]], the man who had brought Lady Thatcher down). He subsequently disappointed many in his party by his support for the [[Maastricht Treaty]] and the integration of Britain with the [[European Union]] that it brought about. Lady Thatcher criticised Major's European policy both publicly and in private.

Following the Conservatives' surprise victory in the 1992 general election, the popularity both of the party and of Major himself fell dramatically, particularly after a financial crisis in September 1992 known as [[Black Wednesday]], in which the [[Pound]] was forced out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM). Major's approval ratings remained in the doldrums for the remainder of his term in office, and in the May 1997 general election the Conservatives suffered one of their heaviest defeats in history against the newly revamped Labour Party of [[Tony Blair]]. Major was subsequently replaced as Prime Minister by [[Tony Blair]] of the [[Labour Party]] and as leader of the Conservative Party by [[William Hague]].

Although a very competent politician and a capable Prime Minister, Major's most serious mistake was failing to control the political divisions and infighting in his party, which lead to a needlessly heavy defeat in the 1997 election. Assessment of the significance of Major's premiership has gradually risen since he left office. In particular, his role in bringing together the political parties from different traditions is increasing seen as crucial in creating the conditions for peaceful self-rule in [[Northern Ireland]], while he is recognised to have made substantial progress in making government agencies more accountable to the public. The latter achievements stand in sharp contrast to the subsequent efforts of the [[Tony Blair|Blair]] government to diminish accountability.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Major, John}}
[[Category:United Kingdom Prime Ministers]]

John Major

2009-01-06T21:34:53Z

HSpalding: V.unlikely to have lasted 18 years as PM - don't think anyone has since Walpole

{{Prime Minister
|image=John Major.jpg
|seq=72
|term_start=November 29 1990
|term_end=May 2 1997
|party=Conservative Party
|previous=Margaret Thatcher
|next=Tony Blair
|birth_date=March 29 1943
|birth_place=Carshalton
|spouse=Norma Major
|spouse2=
|religion=[[Anglican]]
}}
'''Sir John Major''', KG, CH, PC (March 29 1943) was the [[Prime Minister]] of [[the United Kingdom]] from November 1990 to May 1997, succeeding [[Margaret Thatcher]] and succeeded by [[Tony Blair]].

Major was elected leader of the British [[Conservative Party]], and hence Prime Minister, following the resignation of [[Margaret Thatcher]]. He was a relatively unknown figure at the time, but he was seen by many, including Lady Thatcher herself, as being firmly on the right of centre (or, at least, as being more conservative then his relatively [[liberal]] main opponent, [[Michael Heseltine]], the man who had brought Lady Thatcher down). He subsequently disappointed many in his party by his support for the [[Maastricht Treaty]] and the integration of Britain with the [[European Union]] that it brought about. Lady Thatcher criticised Major's European policy both publicly and in private.

Following the Conservatives' surprise victory in the 1992 general election, the popularity both of the party and of Major himself fell dramatically, particularly after a financial crisis in September 1992 known as [[Black Wednesday]], in which the [[Pound]] was forced out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM). Major's approval ratings remained in the doldrums for the remainder of his term in office, and in the May 1997 general election the Conservatives suffered one of their heaviest defeats in history against the newly revamped Labour Party of [[Tony Blair]]. Major was subsequently replaced as Prime Minister by [[Tony Blair]] of the [[Labour Party]] and as leader of the Conservative Party by [[William Hague]].

Although a very competent politician and a capable Prime Minister, Major's most serious mistake was failing to control the political divisions and infighting in his party, which lead to a needlessly heavy defeat in the 1997 election.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Major, John}}
[[Category:United Kingdom Prime Ministers]]

Neville Chamberlain

2009-01-06T21:32:26Z

HSpalding: Leader not same as Chairman

{{Prime Minister
|image=Neville Chamberlain2.jpg
|seq=
|party=Conservative Party
|term_start=May 28, 1937
|term_end=1940
|previous=Stanley Baldwin
|next=Winston Churchill
|birth_date=1869
|birth_place=
|death_date=1940
|death_place=
|spouse=Ann Vere Cole
|religion=Unitarian
}}

'''Neville Chamberlain''' (March 18, 1869 - November 9, 1940) was the [[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom|Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]] from May 27, 1937 to May 10, 1940. Chamberlain belonged to and was Leader of the [[Conservative Party]]. Chamberlain, together with France's [[Edouard Daladier]], signed the [[Munich Pact]] with [[Germany]]. This allowed Germany to annex the [[Sudetenland]] in exchange for a promise of peace. Chamberlain received a hero's welcome upon his return to Great Britain, declaring that the pact had provided "peace in our time." However, he also immediately took steps to bring the British armed forces into a state of readiness for war, implying that he himself knew that war was imminent. Hitler looked upon Chamberlain as an extremely wily character, and felt that he had been cheated out of war.

Not long after, Hitler took all of [[Czechoslovakia]] and then invaded [[Poland]], starting [[World War II]]. In the spring of 1940, following British and French reverses in [[Norway]], Chamberlain resigned and [[Winston Churchill]] became Prime Minister.

==Criticism of his European statesmanship==

Thomas Sowell wrote:
* No leader of a democratic nation was ever more popular than British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain -- wildly cheered in the House of Commons by opposition parties as well as his own -- when he returned from negotiations in Munich in 1938, waving an agreement and declaring that it meant "peace in our time." We know now how short that time was. Less than a year later, World War II began in Europe and spread across the planet, killing tens of millions of people and reducing many cities to rubble in Europe and Asia. Looking back after that war, Winston Churchill said, "There was never a war in all history easier to prevent by timely action." The earlier it was done, the less it would have cost. At one point, Hitler could have been stopped in his tracks "without the firing of a single shot," Churchill said. [http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/07/24/morally_paralyzed]

== Domestic achievements ==

Chamberlain's disastrous foreign policy and inept conduct of the first months of World War II overshadowed a lifetime of achievement before his comparatively short tenure as Premier, particularly in the field of domestic policy. As Minister of Health twice and in a long period of office as [[Chancellor of the Exchequer]], his achievements included landmark reforms of local government finance, improvement of conditions in factories, establishment of the basis of a welfare state, repayment of much the National Debt from the Great War and technological modernisation of British industry. Consequently, he is generally rated as one of the most significant UK government ministers of the 20th century. Ironically, the economic strength achieved by Chamberlain's domestic reforms in peacetime placed Britain in a strong position to resist Germany when war broke out. He remained respected in Parliament and the country even after his fall from Prime Ministerial office, and was in charge of home policy in the Churchill government until shortly before his death in 1941.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Chamberlain, Neville}}
[[Category:United Kingdom Prime Ministers]]
[[Category:World War II]]

User talk:HSpalding

2009-01-05T23:58:57Z

HSpalding: /* Chamberlain */

Your account will be blocked if you continue to push a liberal bias here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:37, 15 November 2008 (EST)

: What 'liberal bias'? I made factual corrections to a few articles. Your motto is "the truth shall set you free". Don't you want your home-schooled students to be taught the truth? [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 14:46, 15 November 2008 (EST)

:: I had to revert your changes. For example, you said that "the description of the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as a Crusade is one reason why many Muslim object so strongly to the actions of the United States." There is no evidence that is a real reason why Muslims object, and you provided none. As I recall you had other liberal edits that were even less plausible.

:: No, I don't want my students to be misled by liberal falsehoods.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:50, 15 November 2008 (EST)

::: President Bush's description of the wars as a Crusade is very often cited by Muslims as a reason for opposing them. See [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2732049.stm here] and [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2879853.stm here] and [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2898955.stm here] and [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3714284.stm here], for a few examples. As for my other edits, you seem to be equating facts with liberalism, which I find very strange. How are you ever going to advance your argument if you start with incorrect information? [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 16:20, 15 November 2008 (EST)

::::Just a little FYI, most people who get this far into a debate with Andy end up getting blocked for violating the 90/10 rule, especially when they present him with evidence contrary to his claims. --[[User:Konstanty|Konstanty]] 16:50, 15 November 2008 (EST)

==Chamberlain==
Excellent edit there - and from an Oor Wullie afficianado as well! Jings! [[User:Bradlaugh|Bradlaugh]] 17:40, 5 January 2009 (EST)
: Thanks - it was interesting that when the BBC ran a poll of historians in 2000 to rank the 20 PMs of the 20th Century, Chamberlain came clearly above Balfour, Eden and Callaghan, largely because of his economic policies. (I think those three were pretty unanimously agreed to be the bottom of the heap - I wonder where Mr Bliar would come if the exercise were re-run!) [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 18:58, 5 January 2009 (EST)

Neville Chamberlain

2009-01-05T22:20:56Z

HSpalding: More balanced view, especially of his domestic policy

{{Prime Minister
|image=Neville Chamberlain2.jpg
|seq=
|party=Conservative Party
|term_start=May 28, 1937
|term_end=1940
|previous=Stanley Baldwin
|next=Winston Churchill
|birth_date=1869
|birth_place=
|death_date=1940
|death_place=
|spouse=Ann Vere Cole
|religion=Unitarian
}}

'''Neville Chamberlain''' (March 18, 1869 - November 9, 1940) was the [[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom|Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]] from May 27, 1937 to May 10, 1940. Chamberlain belonged to (and was the chairperson of) the [[Conservative Party]]. Chamberlain, together with France's [[Edouard Daladier]], signed the [[Munich Pact]] with [[Germany]]. This allowed Germany to annex the [[Sudetenland]] in exchange for a promise of peace. Chamberlain received a hero's welcome upon his return to Great Britain, declaring that the pact had provided "peace in our time." However, he also immediately took steps to bring the British armed forces into a state of readiness for war, implying that he himself knew that war was imminent. Hitler looked upon Chamberlain as an extremely wily character, and felt that he had been cheated out of war.

Not long after, Hitler took all of [[Czechoslovakia]] and then invaded [[Poland]], starting [[World War II]]. In the spring of 1940, following British and French reverses in [[Norway]], Chamberlain resigned and [[Winston Churchill]] became Prime Minister.

==Criticism of his European statesmanship==

Thomas Sowell wrote:
* No leader of a democratic nation was ever more popular than British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain -- wildly cheered in the House of Commons by opposition parties as well as his own -- when he returned from negotiations in Munich in 1938, waving an agreement and declaring that it meant "peace in our time." We know now how short that time was. Less than a year later, World War II began in Europe and spread across the planet, killing tens of millions of people and reducing many cities to rubble in Europe and Asia. Looking back after that war, Winston Churchill said, "There was never a war in all history easier to prevent by timely action." The earlier it was done, the less it would have cost. At one point, Hitler could have been stopped in his tracks "without the firing of a single shot," Churchill said. [http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/07/24/morally_paralyzed]

== Domestic achievements ==

Chamberlain's disastrous foreign policy and inept conduct of the first months of World War II overshadowed a lifetime of achievement before his comparatively short tenure as Premier, particularly in the field of domestic policy. As Minister of Health twice and in a long period of office as [[Chancellor of the Exchequer]], his achievements included landmark reforms of local government finance, improvement of conditions in factories, establishment of the basis of a welfare state, repayment of much the National Debt from the Great War and technological modernisation of British industry. Consequently, he is generally rated as one of the most significant UK government ministers of the 20th century. Ironically, the economic strength achieved by Chamberlain's domestic reforms in peacetime placed Britain in a strong position to resist Germany when war broke out. He remained highly respected in Parliament and the country even after his fall from Prime Ministerial office, and he remained in charge of home policy in the Churchill government until shortly before his death in 1941.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Chamberlain, Neville}}
[[Category:United Kingdom Prime Ministers]]
[[Category:World War II]]

Talk:Correlation

2009-01-05T21:57:19Z

HSpalding: /* Maths restored */ new section

Okay, Tory, you take it from here. :-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 16:22, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

== Maths restored ==

I've restored the mathematical section, which is useful for those who want to know the maths. I've also done some general tidying and clarification. Note that the definition that a correlation is only valid if the two variables are ratio variables is too strict; they only need to be continuous variables. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 16:57, 5 January 2009 (EST)

Correlation

2009-01-05T21:55:53Z

HSpalding: Restored the maths (useful for those who want to know the maths...!) plus some gardening

'''Correlation''' describes the relationship of two factors to one another (see [[cause and effect]]).. In common usage, it denotes an association of one variable with another in quite general terms; for example, one might say, "success is correlated with hard work". In mathematics, however, and in science and engineering, which make use of mathematical concepts, correlation is a technical term with a precise definition.

Correlation must be distinguished from causation (see article on [[correlation is not causation]]). When one factor changes and another factor changes with it, there is usually a direct relationship between the two factors, observed as a correlation. Alternatively, both changed could be the result of changes in a third factor. For example, the prices of two unrelated goods might increase during a period of [[inflation]]; the two price rises are correlated with each other but neither has caused the other.

Once a correlation is established, scientists may conduct research to determine causation. Are respiration deaths causing air pollution, or is it the other way around? It is easy to determine that sickness among the elderly does not cause air pollution. Rather, it is chemicals like sulfur dioxide (typically from coal burning [[power plant]]s) which are the culprits. Cities and states measure the amount of pollutants in the air and epidemiologists can use these data, comparing them to the number of people who develop respiratory diseases.

Regulations which restrict air pollution are made on the basis of these correlations, and on the cause and effect relationships which the correlations help scientists to discover. However, activists have sometimes created false correlations by selective use of data. [http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p59.htm]

== Formal definition ==
''This section is at the level of advanced high school maths (e.g. A-level or Baccalaureat) and can be skipped by general readers.''

The '''correlation coefficient''', also known as '''Pearson's r''', is a statistical measure of association between two continuous variables. It is defined as:

'''r'''= ΣZxZy/n

Where: '''Zx'''= the Z-score of the independent variable X, '''Zy'''= the Z-score of the dependent variable Y, and '''n'''= the number of observations of variables X and Y.

Thus, Pearson's r is the arithmetic mean of the products of the variable Z-scores. The Z-scores used in the correlation coefficient must be calculated using the population formula for the standard deviation and thus:

'''Zx'''= (X-Mx)/SDx

Where: '''Mx'''= the arithmetic mean of the variable x and '''SDx'''= the standard deviation of the variable x.

'''SDx'''= Σ(X-Mx)2/n

Where: '''n'''= the number of observations of variables x and y

'''Zy'''= (Y-My)/SDy

Where: '''My'''= the arithmetic mean of the variable Y and '''SDy'''= the standard deviation of the variable Y.

'''SDy'''= Σ(Y-My)2/n

Where: '''n'''= the number of observations of variables X and Y

Pearson's r varies between -1 and +1. A value of zero indicates that no association is present between the variables, a value of +1 indicates that the strongest possible positive association exists and a value of -1 indicates that there is the strongest possible negative association. In a positive relationship, as variable X increases in value, variable Y will also increase in value (e.g. as number of hours worked (X) increases, weekly pay (Y) also increases). In contrast, in a negative relationship, as variable X increases in value, variable Y will decrease in value (e.g. as number of alcoholic beverages consumed (X) increases, score on a test of hand-eye coordination (Y) decreases).

It is important to note that while a correlation coefficient may be calculated for any set of numbers there are no guarantees that this coefficient is statistically significant. That is to say, without statistical significance we cannot be certain that the computed correlation is an accurate reflection of reality. Significance may be assessed using a variant on the standard [[Student's t-test]] defined as:

'''t'''= (r)√(n-2)/√(1-r2)

The results of this test should be evaluated against the standard t-distribution with degrees of freedom equal to n-2. As usual in significance tests, a result described as significant (i.e. a low value of ''P'' in the ''t'' test) means that the chance of getting a correlation coefficient at least as large (whichever the direction) as that observed, if there is in fact no correlation, is small. A statistically significant result can therefore arise if the actual correlation is strong, even if the dataset is small, or if the actual correlation is weak but many data are observed.

It is important to note that the correlation coefficient should not be calculated when either of the variables is not continuous. That is, when they do not vary continuously and have a meaningful zero. As such, correlating a dichotomous variable (e.g. sex) with a ratio variable (e.g. IQ) is inappropriate and will return uninterpretable results.

Additionally, correlation estimates a linear relationship between X and Y. Thus, an increase in variable X is assumed to exert the same influence on Y across all values of X and Y.

==Correlation and Causation==

''Main article: [[Correlation is not causation]]''

Correlation is a linear statistic and makes no mathematical distinction between [[independent variable|independent]] and [[dependent variable]]s. As a consequence, it is impossible to assert [[causation]] based on a correlation even if that correlation is statistically significant. Therefore, when a significant correlation has been identified it is possible that X -> Y (i.e. X causes Y), Y -> X (i.e. Y causes X), or that X <- Z -> Y (i.e. Both X and Y are caused by an additional variable, Z). Caution must be exercised in asserting causation using correlation and claims to this effect must be viewed with considerable skepticism.

==References==

Aron, Arthur, Elaine N. Aron and Elliot J. Coups. 2008. ''Statistics for the Behavioral and Social Sciences: A Brief Course.'' 4/e. Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Prentice Hall.

[[Category:statistics]]

Talk:Oor Wullie

2008-11-27T21:21:43Z

HSpalding:

== Oor Wullie ==

Please could someone with 'Move' privilege move this page back to Oor Wullie. That's how the title is spelt. (Just as Toni Morrison's book is published as ''The Color Purple'' - not ''Colour'' - in the UK.) Ta, pal. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 16:17, 27 November 2008 (EST)

: Actually, don't bother. I've C&Ped the content into the Oor Wullie page. Nothing now links to Our Willie so it can be deleted. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 16:21, 27 November 2008 (EST)

Talk:Oor Wullie

2008-11-27T21:17:42Z

HSpalding:

Talk:Oor Wullie

2008-11-27T21:17:19Z

HSpalding: Oor Wullie

== Oor Wullie ==

Please could someone with 'Move' privilege move this page back to Oor Wullie. That's what the comic strip is called. That's how the title is spelt. (Just as Toni Morrison's book is published as ''The Color Purple'' - not ''Colour'' - in the UK.) Ta, pal. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 16:17, 27 November 2008 (EST)

Oor Wullie

2008-11-27T21:14:58Z

HSpalding: It's Oor Wullie, not Our Willie (I was brought up reading this comic!)

'''Oor Wullie''' is a long-running comic strip published in the Scottish family newspaper the [[Sunday Post]]. It charts the adventures of a small boy in small town Scotland (the fictional town of ''Auchenshoogle''), with his friends Soapy Souter, Fat Boab and Wee Eck. Other characters include the local policeman P.C. Murdoch, and Wullie's would-be girlfriend Primrose Patterson. Members of [[The Broons]] occasionally appear as minor characters. Wullie's favourite clothes are his dungarees, worn with tacketty (hobnail) boots, and he is often depicted sitting on an upturned bucket in the yard of his long-suffering parents' house, waiting for his favourite meal of mince and tatties (minced beef and potatoes) or eating a 'jeely piece' (jam sandwich). Much of the dialogue is conducted in [[Scots]], and his expostulations ('Help ma boab!' 'Crivvens!' and 'Jings!') have become indelibly associated with him.

==External Links==

* [http://www.thatsbraw.co.uk/ The Broons and Oor Wullie]

[[Category:Comic Strips]]
[[Category:Scottish Culture]]

Talk:Professor values

2008-11-17T21:53:15Z

HSpalding: /* Blatant factual error */ signature

There are several things about this page that damage its credibility. It says that no professor who opposed abortion can get tenure, which is plainly not true since many have. One example is the famous conservative blogge Glen Reynolds of Instapundit.

Now professors do have faults -- they can be selfish and even commit murder from time to time (especially Professor Faust). For every possible character flaw there is a professor with it. But as a group professors are more opposed to censorship than any other group in the world (except possibly pornographers?).

And "liberal grading" does not mean giving liberals high grades and conservatives low ones. It means giving everyone a high grade without regard to political orientation or work quality level.

As for evolution: it would be hard for a biologist who doesn't believe in evolution to get tenure because it is impossible to do first rate research in biology without believing in evolution. For example, suppose you're trying to figure out how molecular motors work. If you believe in intelligent design, you consider all kinds of mechanisms that have no evolutionary pathway.

Then there's calling my edit "inappropriate" without saying what about it is inappropriate-- lgm

I think that it is inappropriate to have "crimes by professors" and "immoral, unethical, and bizarre behavior" in this entry. Either have a separate entry, or remove it entirely. Professors have good values too, they are not all completely immoral people who are self-centered and ignorant. -- Aaronp

Why do my edits keep getting reverted? I made factual edits, removing the absolutes that simply aren't true from the article. I have no problem not editing the rest, because obviously removing "Crimes committed by professors" and "Immoral and Unethical Behavior" from an article on professor values is just wrong, but the edits I made about tenure are factually correct. I have helped multiple tenure boards, and I know for a fact that not every single academic institution in the United states, let alone the world, completely dismisses a candidate based on their views on feminism, abortion, and homosexuality. Mind you, tenure confers essentially complete protection from being prosecuted for any sort of indiscretion, so keeping people with strong biases out of tenure is a good thing. I once saw a review board reject a man for tenure because he accidentally blurted out that "all those kids protesting the war should be forced into service" because they "aren't contributing to society". This was an obvious bias he had, and because it was an extreme one he was rejected for tenure. At the same time, however, I've seen a woman who was criticizing feminist values receive tenure, because she presented her thoughts in a clear, precise, and very educated way. Anyone who criticizes a set of values or an action in a biased or bigoted manner obviously isn't going to receive tenure.

Also, the reason that people who criticize evolution often don't receive tenure is because evolution has almost reached dogma-like acceptance in the scientific community. I don't want to get into a debate about evolution, but because it is so accepted, anyone seen criticizing it without scientific proof is generally regarded as not following scientific method. History may vindicate those people who do criticize evolution now, but until then, people will continue to not receive tenure based on their criticisms.

All I want for this page is to remove the absolutes. Not every institution will outright reject a person for their views on feminism, abortion, or homosexuality. It simply is not true. And because this is supposed to be an educational encyclopedia with conservative values, I believe that the information contained within should be accurate. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]

..does [[Richard Dawkins|Dawkins]] fall into this category as well? For example, ''"Liberal politicians are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate."'' [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 13:03, 8 March 2008 (EST)
:No, because he's not a politician, and he does have a doctorate (two, actually, I think). And since you bring it up...Gary Hart also has a doctorate. And, while Dukakis only has a Harvard law degree, his academic work has been in fields where he can most reasonably be considered an expert (public policy). The same can be said of Al Gore (and his have hardly been "high-ranking academic positions"--"visiting" professorships, and non-credit courses). And, finally, Kerrey is an administrator, not an academic.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 20:35, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
::He's not a politician, but he is an [[atheistic]] (and [[liberal]]) figurehead. And I wouldn't be too certain about those doctorates; [[Richard_Dawkins#Position_at_Oxford|it's debatable whether Dawkins is even a real professor]]. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 00:10, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:I removed Hart and Kerrey as examples of "liberal politicians (who) are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate", because (as noted above), Hart has a doctorate, and Kerrey is an administrator (not an academic).--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:18, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::I don't know enough about those politicians in particular to confirm your edits, but your reasoning sounds legitimate. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 22:33, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:::Alternately, I suppose, one could add Hart/Kerrey back to the list and change the wording of the defining phrase to something like, "...given university positions over better-qualified candidates."--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:46, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::Actually, yes, I agree with that. These examples certainly shouldn't be removed on a technicality or a meaningless distinction when the point still stands; changing the wording of the phrase is a much better idea. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 20:56, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

== What is this about? ==

'''What?''' Another article based on an '''unheard-of phrase''' plucked out of the air? This certainly does not look like an encyclopedia article - cf. [[Hollywood values]], [[Liberal friendship]], [[Second generation atheist]], [[Liberal grading]], [[Embraced deceit]], etc. None of these belongs in an encyclopedia. Apart from anything else, who on earth is likely to look up a phrase like "professor values"? Shouldn't an encyclopedia consist of articles on topics that users are likely to look for, not on opinion pieces by its editor-in-chief? What point are you trying to make, exactly? Who is the target of this latest attack? This is the sort of thing I would expect from a blog or a hate-based website, not from a family-friendly and '''trustworthy''' encyclopedia. This sort of thing is making Conservapedia look ridiculous. Or would you like articles on [[Doctor values]], [[Taxi-driver values]] and [[Lawyer values]] as well? If so, I'd be happy to draft them for you! There must be lots to be said about the misdemeanors of all sorts of groups. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:15, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

: I agree that this kind of article could bring legitimate criticism against CP. The major premises are not documented. While some contributers to this article, including those who have made those assertions, say that it is a work in progress and welcome others to document the supposed many examples, there are a pitiful few, some old, some from other countries, and some for extremely prevalent crimes of marijuana possession. I took a long time to find the best possible supporting source for educational stats, and my guess is that the more than 1,200,000 professors currently working in colleges and universities are responsible for a disproportionately SMALL number of crimes. Until I find statistical support for that statement, I won't post it in the article.

: For a collaborative resource like this, I believe it is imperative that any contributor making an assertion, especially critical ones (as opposed to trivia, added dates, etc. -- which ideally should be supported, too), document them appropriately. If not, that sends a poor message to other contributors, editors, and sysops -- to say nothing of users, potential users, and CP critics. It is hardly the kind of example to provide for home-schooled kids learning about proper scholarship. I have looked and looked and find no reliable studies that support the argument that professors are more likely than anybody else to do bad things. Also, no evidence that liberal professors are worse than conservative ones. There are news and blog reports that repeat certain cases, but unless one does an exhaustive search, no conclusions can be drawn. If this article remains, then there should be additional coverage for politicians, clergy, other professions, etc. and they should include misdeeds by conservatives and liberals alike, according to the actual data. Leaving out crimes by conservatives does no one a service. I understand that this is a conservative encyclopedia, but some traits of it purportedly include truthfulness (I'd argue that it is dishonest to tell only partial truths), and to avoid misrepresentation and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:26, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Head's up - this isn't as simple as it may seem ==

As I was doing some admittedly "Google-esque" research, I did find that there are well over 4000 colleges and universities and probably many more than 1,250,000 current faculty. If we work backwards a generation or two, the number increases, of course, which makes it difficult to substantiate the claim that professors are disproportionately likely to commit crimes or other misdeeds, especially if all we cite are fewer than 20 examples of such misdeeds. Looking at campus statistics, many more campus crimes (by far) were committed by students, to say nothing about the many thousands of crimes committed by the general public. So I started doing some informal Google searches for crimes committed by different professions, using -- for lack of a more efficient search method -- "professor arrested," "faculty arrested," etc. along with other professional categories. Combining "faculty" or "professor" and "crime" didn't work well (too many useless hits).
The highest, in that combination alone, was "teacher" (over 190,000 hits), but "mayor" still had more hits (over 27,000) than "faculty" or "professor" (about 14,000). Unfortunately, hits for "pastor," "minister," and "priest," added up to an uncomfortably high number, over 100,000, but then again, if we don't know how many pastors, etc. are out there, we have no percentage to compare them with faculty or other groups. My methodology is rudimentary, but I didn't see any demographic or statistical reports that covered this topic. So, unless we can document this so-called high rate of crime among faculty, perhaps the article should remain mute on the number, relative to other professions. After seeing some statistics about the correlation between educational level and prison population, it also seems like the prison population is much more likely to have no or little education. There are very few PhDs in prisons. Likewise, after seeing these figures, I would guess that the more one is educated, the less likely one is to get felonies or misdemeanors.

So, my question is: do any other contributors to this article have any data at all on this? Is it only anecdotal? If facts can't be documented, then they don't belong in these articles. Especially if the article is questioning the integrity of professors, including their intellectual integrity (like the Korean scientist who established his reputation on cooked data - about which I can find documentation), this article's information should be sound. It is still full of undocumented assertions and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:01, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Tony Blair ==

Huh? How is this not relevant to the article? He has no doctorate, he has been appointed to teach at Yale and he is a liberal politician. --[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:19, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: That appears simply to be a guest lecture appointment.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:42, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
:: You mean just like Al Gore?--[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:54, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
::: Since you don't seem to mind guest lecturers being added to this list, I will put Tony Blair back.

:::Maybe it was Blair's suppoort for the Iraq War that got him his lecturing position. [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 19:46, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

== Really? ==

I just did a google search, and the first few pages of the 735 results don't have any signinifigance to subject at hand. So, here's my question: Did you just make this term up Andy? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: There's a great deal of bias out there, DLerner. That's a reason why we're here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:10, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:: Yes, Andy. But the problem is, there's a great deal of bias here too. Are there any articles critical of conservatives on this site? Believe me conservatives aren't perfect. You didn't answer my question, where is the term "Professor values" from? I know there are a lot of stupid people/policies on colleges (just watch the Penn & Teller episode on [[censorship]]) but that isn't the point. Where is the term from? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:16, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:::Why are you critical of a neologism which points out a legitimate area of concern, DLerner? Examine the case studies, and perhaps you will appreciate why this article is a necessary one. [[User:Koba|Koba]] 12:34, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

::::Koba, the problem with making up a phrase like this is that it's really not meaningful, unless backed up by statistically valid evidence to justify it. Do Charlton Heston and John Wayne fit the profile of "Hollywood Values" as defined here? The examples mentioned in this article are as representative of professors as a category (i.e. a few out of thousands around the world), as they are of males. If this is the encyclopedic standard CP holds to, then I can create a page called "Right-handed values", describing the bad traits of right-handed people and backed by examples of the criminal behavior of some cherry-picked right-handed people, and it would pass muster based on examples like this page that ASchafly endorses.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

''The phrase Professor values refers to the lack of morals and values in the culture of college faculties, which is characterized by atheism, censorship, socialism, unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge, advocacy of liberal beliefs, liberal grading, liberal bias, anti-patriotism, plagiarism, false claims of credentials, lack of productivity, and promotion of sexual immorality.''

Has anyone else seen this "phrase" before? I looked for it. If it's a study, it belongs in an essay not in a article. Personally, I think Andy made it up. (It's a nice slogan though...)

If anyone can make up a term then write an article about it, how's this? "The phrase '''Criminal values''' refers to the lack of respect for the law..." [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:59, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:Indeed - see my comment under "What is this about?", above - which nobody has seen fit to reply to. The proliferation of these flimsy articles is making a mockery of Conservapedia. The latest such nonsense is [[Liberal drivel]], which I assume is a parody - but it's getting harder and harder to distinguish parody from real content. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 13:17, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

== Um... ==
This article serves no purpose... It should be an essay or opinion at the very most --[[User:Helps|Helps]] 11:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

What '''statistical''' evidence is there in this article of atheism, plagiarism, socialism
, censorship etc. This article makes unfounded claims. [[User:Angband|Angband]] 13:18, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: Help find the support for those observations. It's not difficult to find. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:: That is the wrong way to answer a legitimate question, and does a disservice to the students you want using Conservapedia as a legitimate reference source. When a so-called encyclopedic article makes irrational assertions and offers no cited evidence to support them, people are going to question its validity. Your response, "The supporting evidence is out there, help us to find it.", is basically an endorsement of unacademic postings by biased individuals as long as the bias is conservative, and an insult to the moderates who want a Conservative Encyclopedia to be, well, encyclopedic. My suggestion is that if it's not that hard to find the supporting evidence, then the page should be removed until the author can find it him/herself and post it. I'm sure I'll be accused of "Liberal Denial" or "Liberal Apology", or some other "Liberal ---" behavior that's used in place of an academic response, but fair-minded people need to speak up about this.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:I've never been to College in my long life but I must agree. This article is sensationalist tabloidism at its very best. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== First paragraph of article is not adequately supported ==

I do think the listing of the growing problem of professors misdeeds section in the latter part of the article was very informative.

However, I don't think the footnote in the first paragraph adequately supports the first paragraphs contentions. Is plagiarism truly a professor value? If it is, there is absolutely no support for the contention. I don't think that plagiarism is a common value of professor although there may be certainly instances of it. I have read the scientific fraud in the way of fudging experimental results is a significant problem but I have not heard the same regarding plagiarism. I do know that puffing up ones resume is a significant problem in the USA, however, the contention that professors often do it was not supported.

In short, I think the initial paragraph does not follow the conservapedia commandments in regards to proper citation and support. I don't think it is reasonable to ask the reader to do the research for that is getting the cart before the horse. It is the writers job to support the material.

I do recommend the following conservative website in order to help provide adequate support for the article: Accuracy in Academia at http://www.academia.org/

In the meantime, I suggest the article to be pulled from the popular articles at Conservapedia until adequate support is given and that the article have a citation template put on it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:16, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: This is a work-in-progress with 24 references already. There have been numerous instances of plagiarism by professors without any punishment, and those citations will be easy to fill in, and I welcome assistance. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:57, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::It does appear as if liberals are over represented in academia with 90% of professors describing themselves as being liberals or moderates. [http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=s1153nnhjkhr407r6ng6gjg8pvc8g2s8] Therefore, there does appear to be less conservatives in academia. So one would expect there to be more atheist in academia. At the same time , atheism is not a professor value as about 25% of philosophy professors are theist. [http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=880] In the business and engineering departments the percentage of professors being theist is probably higher given that they are more conservative. In regards to plagiarism being a professor value, many instances of professors committing this act does not necessarily constitute it being a professor value. There are a lot of professors in the USA and abroad so the real question what percentage of professors have engaged in plagiarism. In other words, you can can find many instances of men beating their wives in the United States but is wife beating a "male value"? I don't think it is. Again, it comes down to the percentage issue. So to sum up, I think the opening paragraph needs to be less expansive in its claims or provide additional support. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:Even if 25% of philosophy professors were theists, wouldn't this still be lower than the rate of theism in the population as a whole? I do agree with your post in that it should be examined by specific departments. At least at my school, some departments, such as Economics and Geography, do not seem particularly liberal, while a number of others clearly are. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 18:03, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:::DanH, thank you for your polite and kind reply. I do think that liberal ideology and liberals are over represented in academia. However, to call something a "professor value" or "male value" while a significant portion of the population in question does not share a particular value would be over reaching in my estimation. And I do think, for example, that 25% of a given population not sharing a value would be a significant amount of people and be justification for saying a given characteristic was not a value of the population as a whole. However, you can fairly say that a certain value is over represented in a population as a whole if in fact it is. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::: Good cites, Conservative. I've added them. This entry is ranked #1 on Google and is emerging as a significant insight. Professors share a common value system, not unanimously, but in higher percentages of agreement than even some churches. It's enlightening to described the [[professor value]]s and note the harm caused by them. Ideas obviously do have consequences.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
::::: I have a feeling that the majority of the professors at Liberty University might take exception to this article, since by definition these descriptors apply to them. Also, being ranked #1 in this case has more to do with the topic not being recognized as a commonly-used term. If I wrote an article titled "Liberal Klingon Values" it would rank #1 for that search in no time, without being any more relevant.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:29, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

What constitutes "a relatively high" number of instances of crimes or other misdeeds? Compared to other professions? If so, then we'd need to document those comparisons. If there are over 1,200,000 professors currently active in the US alone, then the total cited cases here is an extremely small 0.00125% of that population, about 1.25 evildoers per 100,000 faculty -- and some cited were from former generations or from other countries. Given stats from the National Center for Educational Statistics, the total population of professors would easily be in the multiple millions (depending how far back we'd want to go), making the percentage of the population amazingly miniscule. Some of the crimes or other behavior in the list refers to things that the general public is probably even more likely to do, including stalking family, drug possession, etc. -- in other words, not things that are unique to professors at all. I'd say the % of pastors and other religious leaders who have gotten themselves into hot water is embarrassingly high (sexual immorality, misuse of church funds, etc.) and perhaps higher than that of the professoriate. Maybe comparing the professors to the general population would show that professors are more or less likely than the general population to commit crimes. Also, to be fair and honest according to the Commandments, this article should report the academic/moral/financial misdeeds -- some very high profile -- of conservative academics, including events at several Christian colleges and universities, indluding former faculty and university presidents. Making unfounded statements in an encyclopedia article, especially if the statements are inflammatory, is antithetical to the whole idea of honest scholarship -- which is ironic, considering the topic of this article! [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:25, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

== Title of the article should be "liberals and academia" and not "professor values" ==

I do believe upon sound research that people are not going to find this article based on a search of "professor values".

Here are the Google results of "professor values" and you will notice that all 715 results have nothing to do with the article we have: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Professor+Values%22&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

On the other hand if you do a search on "liberals in academia" you will get 8,450 results and all are related to our article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22liberals+in+academia%22&btnG=Search

While I do think it is great to have a #1 Google entry in terms of getting exposure to Conservapedia I do think you have to begin with the end in mind and bring people to Conservapedia who are interested in a particular issue. I do realize that it is sometimes beneficial to pursue long tail marketing and dominate less competitive search queries over a long period of time, however, it does not appear as if anyone is typing in "professor values" to find the subject material of our article. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:33, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

I hesitate to point this out again (I mentioned it above), but what of crimes and other misdeeds committed by conservative academics? A number of leaders of Christian colleges and universities have, for example, abused authority, horribly misused funds for private -- and sometimes extravagant -- entertainment, travel, or shopping, or have had immoral sexual affairs. Not including information about these instances, or even acknowleding their existence, is a serious and dishonest error of omission. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:28, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

==Professor Values on Wikipedia==

Seems the article was put up on Wikipedia and is now up for deletion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Values

This thing really doesn't belong on an encyclopedia. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 07:18, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Not on wikipedia, maybe (not least, because it was ''plagiarized'' from here!) - but it seems perfectly at home in this encyclopedia. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 12:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: I bet you think [[Hollywood values]] should be censored also!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:12, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::: Actually, yeah, that's a dumb article too. --[[User:DJBlair|DJBlair]] 14:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Yes, I think any article that is just 'made up' is neither trustworthy or encyclopedic. I wouldn't let my kids near this site (or Wikipedia for that matter, but thats a story for another day) [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::In a strange bout of irony the WP ''Professor Values'' article now ranks higher than the CP version. [[User:TheGySom|TheGySom]] 08:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::: It didn't take long for the [[liberals]] on Wikipedia to delete its entry! It's gone.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

==Catholic schools==

Should abuse by priests in catholic schools deserve its own article entitles, [[Priest Values]]? Of course not, because the abuse committed by some priests is not indicative of the entire group. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:42, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
:You're making a big mistake, you think this "encyclopedia"  is governed by logic and reason, it isn't. -- '''[[user:DLerner|D L e r n e r]]''' [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DLerner Articulate] 20:48, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: DLerner was blocked for his repeated derogatory comments, and "LeaningRight" you should be blocked for your 90/10 [[rule]] violation against talk, talk, talk.

:: This [[professor values]] lists the commonly held values and consequences of those values. Your suggestion does not fit that model, and your suggestion is ludicrous.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:17, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Whatever. By the way, check my contributions, specifically to the India article. I have not broken any rules that I know of. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:31, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
:This is a link to my mainspace contributions: http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?offset=&limit=50&target=LeaningRight&title=Special%3AContributions&namespace=0 [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:33, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: LeaningRight, you wrote, "I have not broken any rules that I know of." That is known as [[deliberate ignorance]], and it's not an excuse. Your last ten contributions have been all talk, and that violates the 90/10 [[rule]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:32, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Please have a little respect and don't talk to me like a child. I'm a middle aged man with children and I find that highly disrespectful. Have a glance at my contributions. I wasn't even aware of this 90/10 rule until you brought it up so its ignorance, but not 'deliberate'. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 15:26, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: You responded to my citation to our very simple set of [[rules]] with "Whatever" and "I have not broken any rules that I know of." Your response was ''after'' I directed you to the very simple set of rules.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:10, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Go and meet someone who doesn't agree with what you believe. I can guarantee you it will be quite refreshing. I'm taking a week off before I lose any faith I have ever had in the American people. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 16:15, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::You really ought to watch how you talk to good editors, Andy. Your attitude isn't helping Conservapedia one bit. [[User:ShaggerNorris|ShaggerNorris]] 18:30, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

Andy, if you hope to gain the respect of the mainstream, and avoid being an object of ridicule at RW and everywhere else, provide a solid case instead of anecdotes [[User:Innsmouth1|Innsmouth1]] 19:09, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
: What's RW? [[User:Alberti|Alberti]] 10:19, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

== Removal of bias ==
The bias that was removed should have been kept in. It was a fair point and was correct.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 17:55, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:But it wasn't conservative. This isn't liberalpedia. Why is that so hard for you to understand? --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 17:59, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Are you kidding? A fact is a fact. A fair and correct point is not aligned with politcal leanings. Why is that so hard to understand?
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:01, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What specifically do you think was fair? The stuff I removed was unjustified liberal bias.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

"However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeed"
Its not bias, it is fact. It is not valid that professors are more likely to commit crimes (at least the validity has not been proven here) and by removing this section it sounds more and more like opinion as opposed to an encyclopedia entry. I know you wont budge on this though and any attempt in me to argue or revert will be meet with an arbitary block so I'll turn my attention to less volitile entries.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, something is not a fact just because it is written down somewhere. Liberal journalists that quote liberal studies that are furnished by liberal organizations do not produce fact - they produce nonsense. Please keep your gibberish out of this site. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable talking about your "facts" over at [[Wikipedia]]. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:12, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ, people sharing common values do tend to act in similar ways. Ideas do matter. Surely you don't think all the problems in Hollywood are purely coincidental with [[Hollywood values]]!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

My quibble was not whether ideas or shared values matter, it was that factual and relevant material was removed as bias.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:45, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, your "facts" were discussed already. We know you can read, so quit playing stupid. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Frank.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:52, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: AdenJ, people who disrespect the law are more likely to commit crimes. That's logic, and does not require a citation. [[Professor values]] include a disrespect for rule of law, among other things.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, and for the last time before I slam my head on the table, I was querying why good stats were removed from this article which show that crime amoung professors is not disproportionate. Apparently its not factual, according to you and Frank. End of discussion.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 20:08, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What statistics are you describing? Merely an estimate of the total number of professors? That doesn't demonstrate anything about proportionate crime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:14, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
:: The stats I cited, which were removed by you, were from a standard statistical source (see the original citation) and the very high number of professors that exist make the isolated examples provided in the article statistically insignificant. It would be interesting to compare relative crime rates for various professions -- then we'd be able to say that professors are more likely or less likely to commit crimes. I spent a lot of time tracking down those stats and was surprised that you removed them because of "liberal" bias. As my contributions to this Talk page show, I felt uncomfortable seeing ungrounded assertions about professors being disproportionately likely to commit crimes. The few examples are incidental and anecdotal -- they are not statistically significant and one cannot use them to justify the conclusion that professors are more likely to commit crimes than others. Plenty of crimes are committed by teachers, pastors, politicians, business people, and so on -- but no evidence has been supplied to show that they commit crimes less often than professors. I believe my statement was taken away not because it is inherently liberal -- it is attitude neutral -- but rather because the data seriously challenged the validity of the premise of the whole article. After a lot of reading on this in support of my since-removed contributions, I would imagine that, taken as a group, professors are much less likely to commit crimes than many other professions. To prove that, I'd have to do more research and document it well, which I don't have the time to do. The same should be done if one wanted to document that they are MORE likely to commit crimes, but for now those assertions in the article remain unsupported except by isolated examples. That is a very bad example to set for any students, home-schooled or not. My contributions attempted to raise the research standard of the article and I believe the data I supplied were inappropriately removed. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 20:48, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

: I looked for, but could not find, the edit you're describing above. But note that the frequency of crime is not the only issue; the nature of the crimes also matters. Also, it's meaningless to compare wealthy, pampered, highly educated professors to the general population in terms of crime. Any comparison would have to factor in demographic, privilege, and background info.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:: If it is, as you say, "meaningless to compare wealthy... professors to the general population in terms of crime," then we should remove the entire block of "Crimes by Professors." The number cited is incredibly small, compared with the total number of professors out there, and unless you are positing that they commit crimes with disproportionate frequency (which the article seems to be implying), then it really doesn't have a purpose. We might as well start sections with anecdotal evidence about crimes for several professions. Actually, crime would be the easiest of the categories mentioned in the article to prove. Bullying, etc. may well take place, and some professors are true jerks, but there is not official documentation about instances of promoting immorality, bias against conservatives in classrooms, etc. Anyway, the problem I see with this article is that readers may notice that there is no support of the major assertions except for a handful of examples, some from other countries, one more than 25 years old, and one about a professor being fined $50 for mooning a child. I would suggest that we find documentation to support this article's assertions, call the article an editorial, or delete it entirely. If we look at the nature of the crimes, as you suggest, there are some murders, but also marijuana possession, mooning, attempting to defraud a hospital trust, stalking, possession of child porn, and others -- but not even close to what happens in one major city in one day. Attempting to smear an entire profession based on these examples and no real data is not scholarship. Conservapedia can do better and it should, if it is to be taken seriously. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 1:48, 22 April 2008 (CDT).

::: You didn't respond to my points. The nature of the crimes is as important as their volume, perhaps more so. And, no, we're not going to limit ourselves here to what is recognized by [[liberal]] newspapers and censored journals. Conservapedia reaches beyond what is already widely available, and we're not going to fall for the [[deliberate ignorance]] that plagues less useful resources.

::: Finally, your statement that "some professors are true jerks" obviously misses the point. The problem is not the "jerks", but the "values".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:::: I thought I'd addressed the main points you'd asked about, but I'll try again. Frequency of crime is indeed an issue if this article is trying to assert that professors commit crimes proportionally more than those in other specific professions, other professions in general, the general public -- you name it. To prove that they commit more crimes than other groups based on the tiny number of examples is ridiculous. Yes, frequency is not the only issue and the nature of the crimes also matters. But as my comment above shows, the crimes cited in the article, as bad as they are, are not all as bad as, say, murder. Besides murder, there is pot possession, the mooning of a child, stalking, possession of child porn, attempting to defraud a hospital trust. So, to the extent that all crime is bad, then all of those are bad things and I trust that the perps got their just desserts. But are those crimes any more heinous than those committed by any number of people of all kinds of professions, by the rich, by the poor, by politicians, etc. If we do factor in "demographic... and other background info," how would the picture look? Well, we don't really know, do we, because we know of no such studies, if there are any out there. So until we have some kind of actual data to go on, this article should remain silent on the issue (or not exist) or else it will look to readers more like an editorial rather than an encyclopedia article based on factual sources. You'd also asked about the source for my stats. I searched for a long time to find good, reliable numbers regarding professors and other employees in colleges and universities in the United States. Here is the quote you removed, along with the citation:
::::: "However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds.<ref>National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06" [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list]</ref>"
:::: Looking at it again, I should have been clearer by adding something to the effect that "because the professoriate is so large, it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than other groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds based on a small sample of reported crimes unless the group and its crime rates are compared with those of other professionals or the general public." I also should have place the stats citation right after I mentioned the number of professors. The source supports that information and not the rest of the sentence. While I could have been clearer, the statement should not have been removed because you were "cleaning out liberal bias." What is liberal about that statement? I was trying to make the article more substantial and accurate. There are clearly claims in the article that are unsupported and therefore in violation of the Conservapedia Commandments, and I was doing research to find accurate data about the population under discussion. It was only a start and I was enjoying the research, but having my contribution yanked was like getting an unwarranted suckerpunch. In a sense, you did what you accuse professors of doing: you bullied someone you thought had an opposing point of view. Trying to verify facts and add documentation is neither liberal nor conservative - it is research. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 22:51:48, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

== [[Debate:Are Liberals fundamentally evil?|Liberal]] professor [[PZ Myers]] just linked to this article ==

[http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/a_temporary_palliative.php Here]. Be on the watch for vandals. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 13:20, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

== this article is ridiculous ==

it's kind of funny actually [[User:NRupert|NRupert]] 13:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Liberal fluff ==

The statement that "it appears that intelligent people sometimes hold these values" is [[liberal fluff]]. It's meaningless. Intelligent people "sometimes" hold almost any value, no matter how wanton or absurd.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:57, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

==Recent edit==
As much as I dislike this entire article, I restrained myself and only removed a section lacking a citation. The citations are generally well groomed in this article, so let's keep up the same standards on the whole thing. IMHO, this is and should remain a highly opinionated essay ONLY, though, not an article. What will the liberals say to us next if they see this? I'm an ashamed conservative to have to read this.[[User:Bender2982|Bender2982]] 18:13, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

: Invoking "shame" is trademark [[liberal style]], Bender. I doubt you're fooling anyone here by claiming you're a conservative. By the way, I added a reference for the material you removed, a reference that took me less than one minute to find. You could have done likewise. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:16, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:: Actually, you added only One reference to One of the points. But in doing so you went from saying, "Some" boards "have been known to", to the more unequivocal, "Faculty boards block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:" Unless you are going to once again provide the word, "Some", as a moderate you are going to need to provide more than one reference to make a blanket and unqualified statement. Oh, and the reference you used said that they took his position into consideration for their decision. A far cry from stating that faculty boards block the granting, etc. as if it was a written policy. A phrase more in line with your example would be, "Some faculty boards have used the following criteria in blocking the granting of a tenured professorship..." --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 18:24, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

== Blatant factual error ==

In the article, Alexander Downer is quoted as being a 'liberal' politician who received an academic position. Unfortunately, despite being a previously prominent member of the Liberal Party of Australia, in Australia this means something quite different. Alexander Downer was one of the most conservative politicians in Australia in the last decade. As a matter of personal opinion, I'd say he'd be the 5th-most conservative mainstream politican in Australia.

: What are his positions on abortion, gay rights and gun control? The way you phrase your comment, I'd guess he is a [[liberal]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:32, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

:: Aschlafly, the Liberal Party in Australia is actually a conservative party. Liberal in this case means free-market liberal. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 20:15, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::: If someone is for government funding of abortion, then he's a liberal. The entry makes no assertion about a particular party name.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:17, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::::The problem is, Aschlafly, that ''conservative'' in the USA doesn't mean the same as ''conservative'' elsewhere, not least other English-speaking countries. In the USA, largely the same set of people are conservative in both social and economic views. In the UK, Australia and New Zealand, however, the two things are pretty much independent. Taking your anti-abortion example, there are MPs opposed to abortion in all three main parties in the UK - their views on that subject are completely unconnected to their economic views. Likewise, civil partnerships and other social issues.
::::As far as the text in the article goes, the sensible thing is just to delete the word liberal. You can't call someone like Alexander Downer or Tony Blair liberal. Downer was very much a conservative in economic policy and Blair was socially conservative, bringing in a great many laws to restrict perfectly harmless activities. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 16:53, 17 November 2008 (EST)

== Doctor values? ==

Please could someone explain in what way the long list of crimes committed by people who happen to be professors has any connection at all to the values of the huge majority of professors who are decent people?

If you want to be consistent, why not start a page called Doctor Values, headed by Harold Shipman. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 19:49, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Talk:Professor values

2008-11-17T20:30:28Z

HSpalding: Conservatives outside USA

There are several things about this page that damage its credibility. It says that no professor who opposed abortion can get tenure, which is plainly not true since many have. One example is the famous conservative blogge Glen Reynolds of Instapundit.

Now professors do have faults -- they can be selfish and even commit murder from time to time (especially Professor Faust). For every possible character flaw there is a professor with it. But as a group professors are more opposed to censorship than any other group in the world (except possibly pornographers?).

And "liberal grading" does not mean giving liberals high grades and conservatives low ones. It means giving everyone a high grade without regard to political orientation or work quality level.

As for evolution: it would be hard for a biologist who doesn't believe in evolution to get tenure because it is impossible to do first rate research in biology without believing in evolution. For example, suppose you're trying to figure out how molecular motors work. If you believe in intelligent design, you consider all kinds of mechanisms that have no evolutionary pathway.

Then there's calling my edit "inappropriate" without saying what about it is inappropriate-- lgm

I think that it is inappropriate to have "crimes by professors" and "immoral, unethical, and bizarre behavior" in this entry. Either have a separate entry, or remove it entirely. Professors have good values too, they are not all completely immoral people who are self-centered and ignorant. -- Aaronp

Why do my edits keep getting reverted? I made factual edits, removing the absolutes that simply aren't true from the article. I have no problem not editing the rest, because obviously removing "Crimes committed by professors" and "Immoral and Unethical Behavior" from an article on professor values is just wrong, but the edits I made about tenure are factually correct. I have helped multiple tenure boards, and I know for a fact that not every single academic institution in the United states, let alone the world, completely dismisses a candidate based on their views on feminism, abortion, and homosexuality. Mind you, tenure confers essentially complete protection from being prosecuted for any sort of indiscretion, so keeping people with strong biases out of tenure is a good thing. I once saw a review board reject a man for tenure because he accidentally blurted out that "all those kids protesting the war should be forced into service" because they "aren't contributing to society". This was an obvious bias he had, and because it was an extreme one he was rejected for tenure. At the same time, however, I've seen a woman who was criticizing feminist values receive tenure, because she presented her thoughts in a clear, precise, and very educated way. Anyone who criticizes a set of values or an action in a biased or bigoted manner obviously isn't going to receive tenure.

Also, the reason that people who criticize evolution often don't receive tenure is because evolution has almost reached dogma-like acceptance in the scientific community. I don't want to get into a debate about evolution, but because it is so accepted, anyone seen criticizing it without scientific proof is generally regarded as not following scientific method. History may vindicate those people who do criticize evolution now, but until then, people will continue to not receive tenure based on their criticisms.

All I want for this page is to remove the absolutes. Not every institution will outright reject a person for their views on feminism, abortion, or homosexuality. It simply is not true. And because this is supposed to be an educational encyclopedia with conservative values, I believe that the information contained within should be accurate. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]

..does [[Richard Dawkins|Dawkins]] fall into this category as well? For example, ''"Liberal politicians are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate."'' [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 13:03, 8 March 2008 (EST)
:No, because he's not a politician, and he does have a doctorate (two, actually, I think). And since you bring it up...Gary Hart also has a doctorate. And, while Dukakis only has a Harvard law degree, his academic work has been in fields where he can most reasonably be considered an expert (public policy). The same can be said of Al Gore (and his have hardly been "high-ranking academic positions"--"visiting" professorships, and non-credit courses). And, finally, Kerrey is an administrator, not an academic.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 20:35, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
::He's not a politician, but he is an [[atheistic]] (and [[liberal]]) figurehead. And I wouldn't be too certain about those doctorates; [[Richard_Dawkins#Position_at_Oxford|it's debatable whether Dawkins is even a real professor]]. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 00:10, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:I removed Hart and Kerrey as examples of "liberal politicians (who) are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate", because (as noted above), Hart has a doctorate, and Kerrey is an administrator (not an academic).--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:18, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::I don't know enough about those politicians in particular to confirm your edits, but your reasoning sounds legitimate. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 22:33, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:::Alternately, I suppose, one could add Hart/Kerrey back to the list and change the wording of the defining phrase to something like, "...given university positions over better-qualified candidates."--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:46, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::Actually, yes, I agree with that. These examples certainly shouldn't be removed on a technicality or a meaningless distinction when the point still stands; changing the wording of the phrase is a much better idea. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 20:56, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

== What is this about? ==

'''What?''' Another article based on an '''unheard-of phrase''' plucked out of the air? This certainly does not look like an encyclopedia article - cf. [[Hollywood values]], [[Liberal friendship]], [[Second generation atheist]], [[Liberal grading]], [[Embraced deceit]], etc. None of these belongs in an encyclopedia. Apart from anything else, who on earth is likely to look up a phrase like "professor values"? Shouldn't an encyclopedia consist of articles on topics that users are likely to look for, not on opinion pieces by its editor-in-chief? What point are you trying to make, exactly? Who is the target of this latest attack? This is the sort of thing I would expect from a blog or a hate-based website, not from a family-friendly and '''trustworthy''' encyclopedia. This sort of thing is making Conservapedia look ridiculous. Or would you like articles on [[Doctor values]], [[Taxi-driver values]] and [[Lawyer values]] as well? If so, I'd be happy to draft them for you! There must be lots to be said about the misdemeanors of all sorts of groups. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:15, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

: I agree that this kind of article could bring legitimate criticism against CP. The major premises are not documented. While some contributers to this article, including those who have made those assertions, say that it is a work in progress and welcome others to document the supposed many examples, there are a pitiful few, some old, some from other countries, and some for extremely prevalent crimes of marijuana possession. I took a long time to find the best possible supporting source for educational stats, and my guess is that the more than 1,200,000 professors currently working in colleges and universities are responsible for a disproportionately SMALL number of crimes. Until I find statistical support for that statement, I won't post it in the article.

: For a collaborative resource like this, I believe it is imperative that any contributor making an assertion, especially critical ones (as opposed to trivia, added dates, etc. -- which ideally should be supported, too), document them appropriately. If not, that sends a poor message to other contributors, editors, and sysops -- to say nothing of users, potential users, and CP critics. It is hardly the kind of example to provide for home-schooled kids learning about proper scholarship. I have looked and looked and find no reliable studies that support the argument that professors are more likely than anybody else to do bad things. Also, no evidence that liberal professors are worse than conservative ones. There are news and blog reports that repeat certain cases, but unless one does an exhaustive search, no conclusions can be drawn. If this article remains, then there should be additional coverage for politicians, clergy, other professions, etc. and they should include misdeeds by conservatives and liberals alike, according to the actual data. Leaving out crimes by conservatives does no one a service. I understand that this is a conservative encyclopedia, but some traits of it purportedly include truthfulness (I'd argue that it is dishonest to tell only partial truths), and to avoid misrepresentation and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:26, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Head's up - this isn't as simple as it may seem ==

As I was doing some admittedly "Google-esque" research, I did find that there are well over 4000 colleges and universities and probably many more than 1,250,000 current faculty. If we work backwards a generation or two, the number increases, of course, which makes it difficult to substantiate the claim that professors are disproportionately likely to commit crimes or other misdeeds, especially if all we cite are fewer than 20 examples of such misdeeds. Looking at campus statistics, many more campus crimes (by far) were committed by students, to say nothing about the many thousands of crimes committed by the general public. So I started doing some informal Google searches for crimes committed by different professions, using -- for lack of a more efficient search method -- "professor arrested," "faculty arrested," etc. along with other professional categories. Combining "faculty" or "professor" and "crime" didn't work well (too many useless hits).
The highest, in that combination alone, was "teacher" (over 190,000 hits), but "mayor" still had more hits (over 27,000) than "faculty" or "professor" (about 14,000). Unfortunately, hits for "pastor," "minister," and "priest," added up to an uncomfortably high number, over 100,000, but then again, if we don't know how many pastors, etc. are out there, we have no percentage to compare them with faculty or other groups. My methodology is rudimentary, but I didn't see any demographic or statistical reports that covered this topic. So, unless we can document this so-called high rate of crime among faculty, perhaps the article should remain mute on the number, relative to other professions. After seeing some statistics about the correlation between educational level and prison population, it also seems like the prison population is much more likely to have no or little education. There are very few PhDs in prisons. Likewise, after seeing these figures, I would guess that the more one is educated, the less likely one is to get felonies or misdemeanors.

So, my question is: do any other contributors to this article have any data at all on this? Is it only anecdotal? If facts can't be documented, then they don't belong in these articles. Especially if the article is questioning the integrity of professors, including their intellectual integrity (like the Korean scientist who established his reputation on cooked data - about which I can find documentation), this article's information should be sound. It is still full of undocumented assertions and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:01, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Tony Blair ==

Huh? How is this not relevant to the article? He has no doctorate, he has been appointed to teach at Yale and he is a liberal politician. --[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:19, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: That appears simply to be a guest lecture appointment.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:42, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
:: You mean just like Al Gore?--[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:54, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
::: Since you don't seem to mind guest lecturers being added to this list, I will put Tony Blair back.

:::Maybe it was Blair's suppoort for the Iraq War that got him his lecturing position. [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 19:46, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

== Really? ==

I just did a google search, and the first few pages of the 735 results don't have any signinifigance to subject at hand. So, here's my question: Did you just make this term up Andy? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: There's a great deal of bias out there, DLerner. That's a reason why we're here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:10, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:: Yes, Andy. But the problem is, there's a great deal of bias here too. Are there any articles critical of conservatives on this site? Believe me conservatives aren't perfect. You didn't answer my question, where is the term "Professor values" from? I know there are a lot of stupid people/policies on colleges (just watch the Penn & Teller episode on [[censorship]]) but that isn't the point. Where is the term from? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:16, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:::Why are you critical of a neologism which points out a legitimate area of concern, DLerner? Examine the case studies, and perhaps you will appreciate why this article is a necessary one. [[User:Koba|Koba]] 12:34, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

::::Koba, the problem with making up a phrase like this is that it's really not meaningful, unless backed up by statistically valid evidence to justify it. Do Charlton Heston and John Wayne fit the profile of "Hollywood Values" as defined here? The examples mentioned in this article are as representative of professors as a category (i.e. a few out of thousands around the world), as they are of males. If this is the encyclopedic standard CP holds to, then I can create a page called "Right-handed values", describing the bad traits of right-handed people and backed by examples of the criminal behavior of some cherry-picked right-handed people, and it would pass muster based on examples like this page that ASchafly endorses.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

''The phrase Professor values refers to the lack of morals and values in the culture of college faculties, which is characterized by atheism, censorship, socialism, unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge, advocacy of liberal beliefs, liberal grading, liberal bias, anti-patriotism, plagiarism, false claims of credentials, lack of productivity, and promotion of sexual immorality.''

Has anyone else seen this "phrase" before? I looked for it. If it's a study, it belongs in an essay not in a article. Personally, I think Andy made it up. (It's a nice slogan though...)

If anyone can make up a term then write an article about it, how's this? "The phrase '''Criminal values''' refers to the lack of respect for the law..." [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:59, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:Indeed - see my comment under "What is this about?", above - which nobody has seen fit to reply to. The proliferation of these flimsy articles is making a mockery of Conservapedia. The latest such nonsense is [[Liberal drivel]], which I assume is a parody - but it's getting harder and harder to distinguish parody from real content. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 13:17, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

== Um... ==
This article serves no purpose... It should be an essay or opinion at the very most --[[User:Helps|Helps]] 11:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

What '''statistical''' evidence is there in this article of atheism, plagiarism, socialism
, censorship etc. This article makes unfounded claims. [[User:Angband|Angband]] 13:18, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: Help find the support for those observations. It's not difficult to find. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:: That is the wrong way to answer a legitimate question, and does a disservice to the students you want using Conservapedia as a legitimate reference source. When a so-called encyclopedic article makes irrational assertions and offers no cited evidence to support them, people are going to question its validity. Your response, "The supporting evidence is out there, help us to find it.", is basically an endorsement of unacademic postings by biased individuals as long as the bias is conservative, and an insult to the moderates who want a Conservative Encyclopedia to be, well, encyclopedic. My suggestion is that if it's not that hard to find the supporting evidence, then the page should be removed until the author can find it him/herself and post it. I'm sure I'll be accused of "Liberal Denial" or "Liberal Apology", or some other "Liberal ---" behavior that's used in place of an academic response, but fair-minded people need to speak up about this.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:I've never been to College in my long life but I must agree. This article is sensationalist tabloidism at its very best. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== First paragraph of article is not adequately supported ==

I do think the listing of the growing problem of professors misdeeds section in the latter part of the article was very informative.

However, I don't think the footnote in the first paragraph adequately supports the first paragraphs contentions. Is plagiarism truly a professor value? If it is, there is absolutely no support for the contention. I don't think that plagiarism is a common value of professor although there may be certainly instances of it. I have read the scientific fraud in the way of fudging experimental results is a significant problem but I have not heard the same regarding plagiarism. I do know that puffing up ones resume is a significant problem in the USA, however, the contention that professors often do it was not supported.

In short, I think the initial paragraph does not follow the conservapedia commandments in regards to proper citation and support. I don't think it is reasonable to ask the reader to do the research for that is getting the cart before the horse. It is the writers job to support the material.

I do recommend the following conservative website in order to help provide adequate support for the article: Accuracy in Academia at http://www.academia.org/

In the meantime, I suggest the article to be pulled from the popular articles at Conservapedia until adequate support is given and that the article have a citation template put on it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:16, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: This is a work-in-progress with 24 references already. There have been numerous instances of plagiarism by professors without any punishment, and those citations will be easy to fill in, and I welcome assistance. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:57, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::It does appear as if liberals are over represented in academia with 90% of professors describing themselves as being liberals or moderates. [http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=s1153nnhjkhr407r6ng6gjg8pvc8g2s8] Therefore, there does appear to be less conservatives in academia. So one would expect there to be more atheist in academia. At the same time , atheism is not a professor value as about 25% of philosophy professors are theist. [http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=880] In the business and engineering departments the percentage of professors being theist is probably higher given that they are more conservative. In regards to plagiarism being a professor value, many instances of professors committing this act does not necessarily constitute it being a professor value. There are a lot of professors in the USA and abroad so the real question what percentage of professors have engaged in plagiarism. In other words, you can can find many instances of men beating their wives in the United States but is wife beating a "male value"? I don't think it is. Again, it comes down to the percentage issue. So to sum up, I think the opening paragraph needs to be less expansive in its claims or provide additional support. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:Even if 25% of philosophy professors were theists, wouldn't this still be lower than the rate of theism in the population as a whole? I do agree with your post in that it should be examined by specific departments. At least at my school, some departments, such as Economics and Geography, do not seem particularly liberal, while a number of others clearly are. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 18:03, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:::DanH, thank you for your polite and kind reply. I do think that liberal ideology and liberals are over represented in academia. However, to call something a "professor value" or "male value" while a significant portion of the population in question does not share a particular value would be over reaching in my estimation. And I do think, for example, that 25% of a given population not sharing a value would be a significant amount of people and be justification for saying a given characteristic was not a value of the population as a whole. However, you can fairly say that a certain value is over represented in a population as a whole if in fact it is. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::: Good cites, Conservative. I've added them. This entry is ranked #1 on Google and is emerging as a significant insight. Professors share a common value system, not unanimously, but in higher percentages of agreement than even some churches. It's enlightening to described the [[professor value]]s and note the harm caused by them. Ideas obviously do have consequences.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
::::: I have a feeling that the majority of the professors at Liberty University might take exception to this article, since by definition these descriptors apply to them. Also, being ranked #1 in this case has more to do with the topic not being recognized as a commonly-used term. If I wrote an article titled "Liberal Klingon Values" it would rank #1 for that search in no time, without being any more relevant.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:29, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

What constitutes "a relatively high" number of instances of crimes or other misdeeds? Compared to other professions? If so, then we'd need to document those comparisons. If there are over 1,200,000 professors currently active in the US alone, then the total cited cases here is an extremely small 0.00125% of that population, about 1.25 evildoers per 100,000 faculty -- and some cited were from former generations or from other countries. Given stats from the National Center for Educational Statistics, the total population of professors would easily be in the multiple millions (depending how far back we'd want to go), making the percentage of the population amazingly miniscule. Some of the crimes or other behavior in the list refers to things that the general public is probably even more likely to do, including stalking family, drug possession, etc. -- in other words, not things that are unique to professors at all. I'd say the % of pastors and other religious leaders who have gotten themselves into hot water is embarrassingly high (sexual immorality, misuse of church funds, etc.) and perhaps higher than that of the professoriate. Maybe comparing the professors to the general population would show that professors are more or less likely than the general population to commit crimes. Also, to be fair and honest according to the Commandments, this article should report the academic/moral/financial misdeeds -- some very high profile -- of conservative academics, including events at several Christian colleges and universities, indluding former faculty and university presidents. Making unfounded statements in an encyclopedia article, especially if the statements are inflammatory, is antithetical to the whole idea of honest scholarship -- which is ironic, considering the topic of this article! [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:25, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

== Title of the article should be "liberals and academia" and not "professor values" ==

I do believe upon sound research that people are not going to find this article based on a search of "professor values".

Here are the Google results of "professor values" and you will notice that all 715 results have nothing to do with the article we have: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Professor+Values%22&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

On the other hand if you do a search on "liberals in academia" you will get 8,450 results and all are related to our article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22liberals+in+academia%22&btnG=Search

While I do think it is great to have a #1 Google entry in terms of getting exposure to Conservapedia I do think you have to begin with the end in mind and bring people to Conservapedia who are interested in a particular issue. I do realize that it is sometimes beneficial to pursue long tail marketing and dominate less competitive search queries over a long period of time, however, it does not appear as if anyone is typing in "professor values" to find the subject material of our article. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:33, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

I hesitate to point this out again (I mentioned it above), but what of crimes and other misdeeds committed by conservative academics? A number of leaders of Christian colleges and universities have, for example, abused authority, horribly misused funds for private -- and sometimes extravagant -- entertainment, travel, or shopping, or have had immoral sexual affairs. Not including information about these instances, or even acknowleding their existence, is a serious and dishonest error of omission. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:28, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

==Professor Values on Wikipedia==

Seems the article was put up on Wikipedia and is now up for deletion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Values

This thing really doesn't belong on an encyclopedia. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 07:18, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Not on wikipedia, maybe (not least, because it was ''plagiarized'' from here!) - but it seems perfectly at home in this encyclopedia. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 12:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: I bet you think [[Hollywood values]] should be censored also!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:12, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::: Actually, yeah, that's a dumb article too. --[[User:DJBlair|DJBlair]] 14:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Yes, I think any article that is just 'made up' is neither trustworthy or encyclopedic. I wouldn't let my kids near this site (or Wikipedia for that matter, but thats a story for another day) [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::In a strange bout of irony the WP ''Professor Values'' article now ranks higher than the CP version. [[User:TheGySom|TheGySom]] 08:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::: It didn't take long for the [[liberals]] on Wikipedia to delete its entry! It's gone.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

==Catholic schools==

Should abuse by priests in catholic schools deserve its own article entitles, [[Priest Values]]? Of course not, because the abuse committed by some priests is not indicative of the entire group. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:42, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
:You're making a big mistake, you think this "encyclopedia"  is governed by logic and reason, it isn't. -- '''[[user:DLerner|D L e r n e r]]''' [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DLerner Articulate] 20:48, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: DLerner was blocked for his repeated derogatory comments, and "LeaningRight" you should be blocked for your 90/10 [[rule]] violation against talk, talk, talk.

:: This [[professor values]] lists the commonly held values and consequences of those values. Your suggestion does not fit that model, and your suggestion is ludicrous.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:17, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Whatever. By the way, check my contributions, specifically to the India article. I have not broken any rules that I know of. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:31, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
:This is a link to my mainspace contributions: http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?offset=&limit=50&target=LeaningRight&title=Special%3AContributions&namespace=0 [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:33, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: LeaningRight, you wrote, "I have not broken any rules that I know of." That is known as [[deliberate ignorance]], and it's not an excuse. Your last ten contributions have been all talk, and that violates the 90/10 [[rule]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:32, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Please have a little respect and don't talk to me like a child. I'm a middle aged man with children and I find that highly disrespectful. Have a glance at my contributions. I wasn't even aware of this 90/10 rule until you brought it up so its ignorance, but not 'deliberate'. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 15:26, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: You responded to my citation to our very simple set of [[rules]] with "Whatever" and "I have not broken any rules that I know of." Your response was ''after'' I directed you to the very simple set of rules.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:10, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Go and meet someone who doesn't agree with what you believe. I can guarantee you it will be quite refreshing. I'm taking a week off before I lose any faith I have ever had in the American people. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 16:15, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::You really ought to watch how you talk to good editors, Andy. Your attitude isn't helping Conservapedia one bit. [[User:ShaggerNorris|ShaggerNorris]] 18:30, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

Andy, if you hope to gain the respect of the mainstream, and avoid being an object of ridicule at RW and everywhere else, provide a solid case instead of anecdotes [[User:Innsmouth1|Innsmouth1]] 19:09, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
: What's RW? [[User:Alberti|Alberti]] 10:19, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

== Removal of bias ==
The bias that was removed should have been kept in. It was a fair point and was correct.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 17:55, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:But it wasn't conservative. This isn't liberalpedia. Why is that so hard for you to understand? --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 17:59, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Are you kidding? A fact is a fact. A fair and correct point is not aligned with politcal leanings. Why is that so hard to understand?
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:01, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What specifically do you think was fair? The stuff I removed was unjustified liberal bias.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

"However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeed"
Its not bias, it is fact. It is not valid that professors are more likely to commit crimes (at least the validity has not been proven here) and by removing this section it sounds more and more like opinion as opposed to an encyclopedia entry. I know you wont budge on this though and any attempt in me to argue or revert will be meet with an arbitary block so I'll turn my attention to less volitile entries.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, something is not a fact just because it is written down somewhere. Liberal journalists that quote liberal studies that are furnished by liberal organizations do not produce fact - they produce nonsense. Please keep your gibberish out of this site. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable talking about your "facts" over at [[Wikipedia]]. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:12, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ, people sharing common values do tend to act in similar ways. Ideas do matter. Surely you don't think all the problems in Hollywood are purely coincidental with [[Hollywood values]]!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

My quibble was not whether ideas or shared values matter, it was that factual and relevant material was removed as bias.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:45, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, your "facts" were discussed already. We know you can read, so quit playing stupid. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Frank.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:52, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: AdenJ, people who disrespect the law are more likely to commit crimes. That's logic, and does not require a citation. [[Professor values]] include a disrespect for rule of law, among other things.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, and for the last time before I slam my head on the table, I was querying why good stats were removed from this article which show that crime amoung professors is not disproportionate. Apparently its not factual, according to you and Frank. End of discussion.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 20:08, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What statistics are you describing? Merely an estimate of the total number of professors? That doesn't demonstrate anything about proportionate crime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:14, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
:: The stats I cited, which were removed by you, were from a standard statistical source (see the original citation) and the very high number of professors that exist make the isolated examples provided in the article statistically insignificant. It would be interesting to compare relative crime rates for various professions -- then we'd be able to say that professors are more likely or less likely to commit crimes. I spent a lot of time tracking down those stats and was surprised that you removed them because of "liberal" bias. As my contributions to this Talk page show, I felt uncomfortable seeing ungrounded assertions about professors being disproportionately likely to commit crimes. The few examples are incidental and anecdotal -- they are not statistically significant and one cannot use them to justify the conclusion that professors are more likely to commit crimes than others. Plenty of crimes are committed by teachers, pastors, politicians, business people, and so on -- but no evidence has been supplied to show that they commit crimes less often than professors. I believe my statement was taken away not because it is inherently liberal -- it is attitude neutral -- but rather because the data seriously challenged the validity of the premise of the whole article. After a lot of reading on this in support of my since-removed contributions, I would imagine that, taken as a group, professors are much less likely to commit crimes than many other professions. To prove that, I'd have to do more research and document it well, which I don't have the time to do. The same should be done if one wanted to document that they are MORE likely to commit crimes, but for now those assertions in the article remain unsupported except by isolated examples. That is a very bad example to set for any students, home-schooled or not. My contributions attempted to raise the research standard of the article and I believe the data I supplied were inappropriately removed. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 20:48, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

: I looked for, but could not find, the edit you're describing above. But note that the frequency of crime is not the only issue; the nature of the crimes also matters. Also, it's meaningless to compare wealthy, pampered, highly educated professors to the general population in terms of crime. Any comparison would have to factor in demographic, privilege, and background info.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:: If it is, as you say, "meaningless to compare wealthy... professors to the general population in terms of crime," then we should remove the entire block of "Crimes by Professors." The number cited is incredibly small, compared with the total number of professors out there, and unless you are positing that they commit crimes with disproportionate frequency (which the article seems to be implying), then it really doesn't have a purpose. We might as well start sections with anecdotal evidence about crimes for several professions. Actually, crime would be the easiest of the categories mentioned in the article to prove. Bullying, etc. may well take place, and some professors are true jerks, but there is not official documentation about instances of promoting immorality, bias against conservatives in classrooms, etc. Anyway, the problem I see with this article is that readers may notice that there is no support of the major assertions except for a handful of examples, some from other countries, one more than 25 years old, and one about a professor being fined $50 for mooning a child. I would suggest that we find documentation to support this article's assertions, call the article an editorial, or delete it entirely. If we look at the nature of the crimes, as you suggest, there are some murders, but also marijuana possession, mooning, attempting to defraud a hospital trust, stalking, possession of child porn, and others -- but not even close to what happens in one major city in one day. Attempting to smear an entire profession based on these examples and no real data is not scholarship. Conservapedia can do better and it should, if it is to be taken seriously. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 1:48, 22 April 2008 (CDT).

::: You didn't respond to my points. The nature of the crimes is as important as their volume, perhaps more so. And, no, we're not going to limit ourselves here to what is recognized by [[liberal]] newspapers and censored journals. Conservapedia reaches beyond what is already widely available, and we're not going to fall for the [[deliberate ignorance]] that plagues less useful resources.

::: Finally, your statement that "some professors are true jerks" obviously misses the point. The problem is not the "jerks", but the "values".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:::: I thought I'd addressed the main points you'd asked about, but I'll try again. Frequency of crime is indeed an issue if this article is trying to assert that professors commit crimes proportionally more than those in other specific professions, other professions in general, the general public -- you name it. To prove that they commit more crimes than other groups based on the tiny number of examples is ridiculous. Yes, frequency is not the only issue and the nature of the crimes also matters. But as my comment above shows, the crimes cited in the article, as bad as they are, are not all as bad as, say, murder. Besides murder, there is pot possession, the mooning of a child, stalking, possession of child porn, attempting to defraud a hospital trust. So, to the extent that all crime is bad, then all of those are bad things and I trust that the perps got their just desserts. But are those crimes any more heinous than those committed by any number of people of all kinds of professions, by the rich, by the poor, by politicians, etc. If we do factor in "demographic... and other background info," how would the picture look? Well, we don't really know, do we, because we know of no such studies, if there are any out there. So until we have some kind of actual data to go on, this article should remain silent on the issue (or not exist) or else it will look to readers more like an editorial rather than an encyclopedia article based on factual sources. You'd also asked about the source for my stats. I searched for a long time to find good, reliable numbers regarding professors and other employees in colleges and universities in the United States. Here is the quote you removed, along with the citation:
::::: "However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds.<ref>National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06" [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list]</ref>"
:::: Looking at it again, I should have been clearer by adding something to the effect that "because the professoriate is so large, it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than other groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds based on a small sample of reported crimes unless the group and its crime rates are compared with those of other professionals or the general public." I also should have place the stats citation right after I mentioned the number of professors. The source supports that information and not the rest of the sentence. While I could have been clearer, the statement should not have been removed because you were "cleaning out liberal bias." What is liberal about that statement? I was trying to make the article more substantial and accurate. There are clearly claims in the article that are unsupported and therefore in violation of the Conservapedia Commandments, and I was doing research to find accurate data about the population under discussion. It was only a start and I was enjoying the research, but having my contribution yanked was like getting an unwarranted suckerpunch. In a sense, you did what you accuse professors of doing: you bullied someone you thought had an opposing point of view. Trying to verify facts and add documentation is neither liberal nor conservative - it is research. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 22:51:48, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

== [[Debate:Are Liberals fundamentally evil?|Liberal]] professor [[PZ Myers]] just linked to this article ==

[http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/a_temporary_palliative.php Here]. Be on the watch for vandals. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 13:20, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

== this article is ridiculous ==

it's kind of funny actually [[User:NRupert|NRupert]] 13:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Liberal fluff ==

The statement that "it appears that intelligent people sometimes hold these values" is [[liberal fluff]]. It's meaningless. Intelligent people "sometimes" hold almost any value, no matter how wanton or absurd.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:57, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

==Recent edit==
As much as I dislike this entire article, I restrained myself and only removed a section lacking a citation. The citations are generally well groomed in this article, so let's keep up the same standards on the whole thing. IMHO, this is and should remain a highly opinionated essay ONLY, though, not an article. What will the liberals say to us next if they see this? I'm an ashamed conservative to have to read this.[[User:Bender2982|Bender2982]] 18:13, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

: Invoking "shame" is trademark [[liberal style]], Bender. I doubt you're fooling anyone here by claiming you're a conservative. By the way, I added a reference for the material you removed, a reference that took me less than one minute to find. You could have done likewise. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:16, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:: Actually, you added only One reference to One of the points. But in doing so you went from saying, "Some" boards "have been known to", to the more unequivocal, "Faculty boards block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:" Unless you are going to once again provide the word, "Some", as a moderate you are going to need to provide more than one reference to make a blanket and unqualified statement. Oh, and the reference you used said that they took his position into consideration for their decision. A far cry from stating that faculty boards block the granting, etc. as if it was a written policy. A phrase more in line with your example would be, "Some faculty boards have used the following criteria in blocking the granting of a tenured professorship..." --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 18:24, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

== Blatant factual error ==

In the article, Alexander Downer is quoted as being a 'liberal' politician who received an academic position. Unfortunately, despite being a previously prominent member of the Liberal Party of Australia, in Australia this means something quite different. Alexander Downer was one of the most conservative politicians in Australia in the last decade. As a matter of personal opinion, I'd say he'd be the 5th-most conservative mainstream politican in Australia.

: What are his positions on abortion, gay rights and gun control? The way you phrase your comment, I'd guess he is a [[liberal]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:32, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

:: Aschlafly, the Liberal Party in Australia is actually a conservative party. Liberal in this case means free-market liberal. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 20:15, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::: If someone is for government funding of abortion, then he's a liberal. The entry makes no assertion about a particular party name.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:17, 16 November 2008 (EST)

::::The problem is, Aschlafly, that ''conservative'' in the USA doesn't mean the same as ''conservative'' elsewhere, not least other English-speaking countries. In the USA, largely the same set of people are conservative in both social and economic views. In the UK, Australia and New Zealand, however, the two things are pretty much independent. Taking your anti-abortion example, there are MPs opposed to abortion in all three main parties in the UK - their views on that subject are completely unconnected to their economic views. Likewise, civil partnerships and other social issues.

As far as the text in the article goes, the sensible thing is just to delete the word liberal. You can't call someone like Alexander Downer or Tony Blair liberal. Downer was very much a conservative in economic policy and Blair was socially conservative, bringing in a great many laws to restrict perfectly harmless activities.

== Doctor values? ==

Please could someone explain in what way the long list of crimes committed by people who happen to be professors has any connection at all to the values of the huge majority of professors who are decent people?

If you want to be consistent, why not start a page called Doctor Values, headed by Harold Shipman. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 19:49, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Professor values

2008-11-17T20:29:37Z

HSpalding: Politicians

'''Professor values''' refer to the common value system embraced by a large percentage of [[professor]]s, just as [[Hollywood values]] refers to the common value system of many in [[Hollywood]] and the entertainment industry.

An extremely high percentage of professors disagree with [[conservative]] principles.<ref>"90 percent of United States professors called themselves liberal or moderate .[http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/]</ref> Professors' common value system typically includes [[atheism]], [[censorship]], [[socialism]], unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge (for example, the dogmatic promotion of the [[Theory of Evolution|theory of evolution]],<ref>For example, a $100,000 "environmental" prize was awarded for work on a [[politically correct]] "theory of convergent evolution." [http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/4/4/briefBiologyProfAwardedEnvironmentalAchievementPrize]</ref> [[liberаl]] beliefs, [[liberal grading]], [[liberal bias]],<ref>http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2005/08/26/johnson</ref> anti-patriotism, lack of productivity, [[bullying]] or discouraging [[conservative]] students (for example, homeschoolers),<ref>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/21/AR2008032101451.html</ref><ref>http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/488/NCliberalbiasagnstcons060104.htm</ref> and promotion of sexual immorality.<ref>http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2001/oct_2001_4.html</ref><ref>http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/1998/october_1998_1.html</ref>
In a Zogby poll, 58% of [[Americans]] said that the bias of professors is a serious problem, while 39% said it is a "very serious" problem.<ref name="zogby">http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1334</ref> The survey demonstrated further that "an overwhelming majority also believe that job security for college professors leaves them less motivated to do a good job than those professors who do not enjoy a tenured status - 65% said they believe non-tenured professors are more motivated to do a good job in the classroom."<ref name="zogby" /> One study in 2008 found that "[[Texas]] university professors overwhelmingly favor
[[Democratic]] candidates in their campaign contributions."<ref>http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5753471.html</ref>

Professors sometimes engage in wrongdoing while completing research. "About 1,000 potential incidents of fabrication, falsification or plagiarism in scientific research go unreported every year, according to a survey that suggests such misconduct is far more prevalent than suspected. ... 22 percent was by a professor or senior scientist."<ref>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aYFanemP24yM&refer=home</ref>

Faculty boards have been known to (on multiple occasions) block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:

* criticize the [[theory of evolution]]<ref>"As reported last week, two members of the department that denied tenure to astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State University (ISU) have publicly admitted that Gonzalez's work on intelligent design played a role in his denial of tenure." [http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/iowa_state_avoids_key_question.html]</ref>
* criticize [[feminism]]
* criticize [[abortion]]
* oppose the [[homosexual agenda]]
* criticize the [[liberal bias]] in [[academia]] itself

For example, professors at [[Washington University]] wore white armbands to protest an award of an honorary degree to [[Phyllis Schlafly]], a noted [[conservative]], in an act of political partisanship and utter unprofessionality.<ref>http://publicbroadcasting.net/kwmu/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1279565&sectionID=1</ref> At the [[University of Chicago]], more than one hundred professors signed a letter to protest a proposal to honor [[conservative]]-leaning [[Nobel Prize]]-winning colleague [[Milton Friedman]].<ref>http://bourdaghs.com/blog.html?p=484</ref>

Politicians are routinely given high-ranking academic positions. Examples include:

* [[Al Gore]]<ref>Beginning early in 2001, "Gore will be [at UCLA] to develop a new curriculum for family-centered community building, a multidisciplinary approach that brings together authorities from such fields as education, business and public policy to work on problems that ail our society and affect our children. ... He also will be teaching at three other universities - Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro and Fisk University in Nashville - in addition to his teaching and research work at UCLA." [http://spotlight.ucla.edu/special-guests/al-gore_teach/]</ref>
*[[Alexander Downer]]<ref>Downer is so pro-[[abortion]] that, as Foreign Minister of Australia, he "asked for a review of the government's ban on funding for abortion services in other countries."[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/51731.php]</ref>
*[[Michael Dukakis]]
*[[Gary Hart]]
*[[Bob Kerrey]]
*[[Tony Blair]]<ref>Blair was given a prestigious visiting lectureship.</ref>
*[[Tom Kean]]

==Crimes and Alleged Crimes by Professors==
* Sociology professor Hassan Diab arrested for his involvement in the 1980 bombing of a synagogue which killed four. <ref>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081113/diab_arrest_081113/20081113?hub=TopStories</ref>

* "A college professor accused of intercepting the e-mail of a student with whom he had an affair has pleaded not guilty to the charges. Stephan Grzeskowiak, 34, entered the plea .... A federal grand jury has indicted the former assistant professor of marketing ... on five counts of intercepting electronic communications and one count of computer fraud. He is accused of intercepting e-mails and instant messages on a computer used by the woman in May 2007."<ref>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-professor-hacking,0,2077856.story</ref>

* "Vanderbilt University professor James J. Lang was arrested Friday evening in Fairview on a charge of receipt of child pornography."<ref>http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080913/NEWS03/809130338/1017/news01</ref>

* Carnegie Mellon University computer science professor Jeffrey Hunker, 51, "was charged with drunken driving three times in eight days" in August 2008 and, as a result, prosecutors asked the judge to imprison him. He had worked in the Clinton Administration and was driving his new BMW when stopped for the third time.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,412801,00.html</ref>

* University of Iowa political science professor "Arthur H. Miller, 66, has been accused of demanding sexual favors from students in exchange for better grades .... He was arrested on four counts of bribery, a class C felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison ...."<ref>http://iowaindependent.com/3876/ui-mired-in-another-sex-scandal</ref> After being released without bail, Miller then disappeared and police wasted thousands of dollars looking for him.<ref>http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080822/NEWS/27671323/0/FRONTPAGE</ref> Later his body was found in a park. "He died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound."<ref>http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080826/NEWS/80826009/-1/LIFE04</ref>

* Arkansas Tech University chemistry professor Albert Snow, 33 years old, was sentenced to 10 years in jail "on a charge he stalked a person he believed was a teenage girl on the Internet." "Snow was arrested in January 2007 after showing up at a Russellville apartment complex where police say he expected to meet a 15-year-old girl."<ref>http://www.wreg.com/Global/story.asp?S=8803789</ref>

* At Northern Kentucky University, language and literature professor Sally Jacobsen incited some of her students to vandalize a pro-life display by Northern Right to Life, the campus pro-life group. Jacobsen herself also participated in the vandalism, which involved destroying rows of white crosses symbolizing the graves of aborted children. Jacobsen justified the vandalism as free speech, stating, "I did, outside of class during the break, invite students to express their freedom-of-speech rights to destroy the display if they wished to." Jacobsen was unrepentant until given the choice of facing criminal charges of theft, criminal mischief and criminal solicitation or apologizing. Jacobsen chose the latter and also paid Northern Right to Life for damage to the display. Jacobsen was suspended by the university and subsequently retired.<ref>http://www.lifenews.com/state3207.html</ref>

* College of New Jersey adjunct professor of engineering Bruce R. McKenna, 43, "surrendered to authorities after allegedly having sexually explicit conversations with an undercover officer posing as a teenage girl." He was "charged with six counts of attempting to endanger the welfare of a child, six counts of attempted sexual contact, sexual assault and attempted luring. ... Before McKenna was arrested, the situation escalated to the point where the professor was allegedly trying to meet with a 13-year-old girl."[http://www.nj.com/news/gloucester/local/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1218698712309020.xml&coll=8]

* "A [[South Korea]]n court Monday sentenced a former university art professor to 18 months in jail for forging her [[US]] degree certificates, officials said. The Seoul District Criminal Court found Shin Jeong-Ah guilty of forging undergraduate and master's degrees from the [[University of Kansas]] and [[Yale University]] to secure a job at Seoul's Dongguk university."<ref>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jCfPQ1_mqM2VaXzQUSy-mXwQIvXQ</ref>

* [[Villanova University]] professor Edward R. Ritter was arrested on March 21, 2008, and charged with selling marijuana to undercover police officers, and a subsequent search of his home uncovered 19 bags of marijuana.<ref>http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20080322_Villanova_professor_arrested_on_drug_charges.html</ref>

* Kansas State University English professor Thomas Murray was a popular teacher, but he was convicted of murdering his ex-wife with 17 stab wounds and blunt trauma to her head. She "was found dead in her bedroom atop a dresser."<ref name="ctv">http://www.courttv.com/trials/murray/backgrounder_ctv.html</ref> Professor Murray had written several books, including "The Language of Sadomasochism."<ref name="ctv" /> He did not testify in his defense and spoke only at sentencing, where he called the state's case a "fairy tale."<ref>http://www.kansaspublicradio.org/newsstory.php?itemID=5892</ref>

* Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine Anatomy associate professor Peter Alan Rogers, 59, was arrested on Apr. 21, 2008 on a charge of possession of child pornography on a school laptop computer.<ref>http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2008/04/24/professor_0425.html</ref>

* Shortly after the end of the school year and his contract, Marshall University Psychiatry associate professor John M. Adams burglarized and murdered Bobby Burns on July 2, 2003, and then kidnapped two women and forced them to drive him across the Ohio River.<ref>http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/07/29/loc_ohprofessor29.html</ref>

* University of South Florida professor Sami al-Arian pled guilty to "aiding a terrorist group" and was "sentenced to 57 months in prison."<ref name="nysun">http://www.nysun.com/article/72228</ref><ref>http://www.mysuncoast.com/Global/story.asp?S=7961089&nav=menu577_2_1</ref> He then "spent more than a year in civil contempt after refusing to appear before two grand juries investigating Islamic charities in Northern Virginia."<ref name="nysun" />

* Claremont McKenna College visiting professor Kerri Dunn was sentenced to a year in state prison after she was found guilty of staging a phony [[hate crime]], in which she "spray-painted her car with racist and anti-Semitic slurs and then reported a hate crime on campus."<ref>http://www.knbc.com/education/3998600/detail.html</ref>

* University of Hawaii professor Marc Fossorier was arrested and later convicted and sentenced to one year in jail for attempting a sex crime with a girl apparently only 15 years old.<ref>http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4582/40/</ref>

* A [[New Jersey]] Cumberland County College professor "was arrested on charges of harassment, trespassing and stalking."<ref>http://www.thedailyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/NEWS01/80305019/1002</ref>

* University of Central Florida political science professor Michael Shawn Reichert was arrested for having "a stash of more than 100 child pornography pictures on his work computer," "plus three pornographic movies."<ref>http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2007/07/ucf-professor-a.html</ref>

* [[University of Wisconsin]] adjunct professor Victor M. Zamudio-Taylor resigned after being charged with viewing child-pornography in a campus computer laboratory.<ref>http://badgerherald.com/news/2002/03/19/uwmilwaukee_professo.php</ref>

* Concordia University professor Valery Fabrikant shot and killed four other professors in 1992. <ref>http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/01/25/qc-valeryfabrikant0125.html</ref>

* A [[British]] university professor was jailed for ten months for plotting to defraud a hospital trust. <ref>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010626/ai_n14398964</ref>

* [[French]] [[Marxist]] [[structuralist]] [[philosopher]] Professor [[Louis Althusser]] (1918-1990) killed his wife in 1980 and was afterwards confined to a psychiatric hospital.

* Professor Daniel Storm, of the University of Washington, flushed 4 liters of the flammable solvent ethyl ether down the sink, rather than pay the safe disposal fees. Assistant U.S. Attorney Jim Oesterle said that his using an axe to open the containers was particularly dangerous because a spark could easily have ignited the ether. <ref>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003607035_uwprof08m0.html</ref>

* An Associate Professor at Youngstown State University was locked up and fined $50 after baring his buttocks in front of children at a county fair. <ref>http://www.thejambar.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=38283b71-1223-4e85-929f-ba0f932d5366</ref>

* Philosophy professor [[Abimael Guzman]] of the National University of San Cristobal de Huamanga in [[Peru]] founded the bloodthirsty [[Shining Path]] organization, one of the most violent terrorist groups of recent decades.

* A childcare lecturer at Athlone Institute of Technology, [[Ireland]], was convicted of sexual assault while on a trip to [[Amsterdam]]. Despite this, AIT let him keep his job - until the crime was exposed in the local media.<ref>http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/0415/ireland/mhojqlidcwid/</ref>

* A lecturer in sexual health at the University College of Medicine, [[Cardiff]], [[United Kingdom]] was fined £3,000 for child pornography offenses. <ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1497151.stm</ref>

* University of Tennessee Physics professor, J. Reece Roth has been found guilty of passing U.S. Air Force secrets to [[China]] and [[Iran]]. Jury concluded he was guilty on 18 counts of conspiracy, fraud and violating the Arms Export Control Act. <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/us/professor_secrets/2008/09/03/127312.html Tenn. Professor Guilty of Passing Military Secrets] AP, September 3, 2008</ref>

==Immoral, Unethical, or Bizarre Behavior==
*A Texas Southern University professor is being investigated for allegedly plagiarizing his grant proposal [http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6085039.html]

*The President of the University of Texas-Pan American is under investigation after allegations that she [[Plagiarism|plagiarized]] her 1974 dissertation <ref>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jigNGLtg9PtFNelXVdVdNFVfb48wD943SDH03</ref>.

* An [[Iowa]] community college [[president]] resigned after publication of a photo that appeared to show him pouring beer into a young woman's [[mouth]]. But the [[school]]'s board of trustees approved a [[severance package]] that officials said was [[value]]d at about $400,000 plus benefits.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,413101,00.html</ref>

* A Kansas university professor, Fort Hays State University debate coach William Shanahan, "is under fire after a video showing him mooning a room full of students and faculty during a heated debate found its way onto YouTube." He "is shown on the video in a profane, in-your-face argument with his counterpart from the University of Pittsburgh ...."[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403781,00.html Kansas Professor in Trouble for Mooning Incident]

*Emory University History Professor of History [[Michael Bellesiles]], a [[gun control]] advocate, wrote a book entitled ''Arming America, The Origins of a National Gun Culture'' (2000). Gary Wills gave it a glowing review in ''The New York Times'', but admitted later that "I was took. The book is a fraud."<ref>Jonah Goldberg, [http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_501644.html ''Reports of the 2nd Amendment's death have been greatly exaggerated ...''] Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Apr. 8, 2007.</ref> Bellesiles resigned from his position as Professor of History when an independent committee of scholars examined his work and concluded that "his scholarly integrity is seriously in question."<ref>http://hnn.us/articles/1069.html</ref>

*According to one columnist, 88 Duke professors -- more than 10 percent of the Duke professorial faculty - endorsed and published an advertisement hurtful to students who had been wrongly accused of rape during a lacrosse team party, which "helped create the lynch-mob atmosphere."<ref>http://www.nypost.com/seven/03232007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/duke__who_wont_pay_opedcolumnists_john_podhoretz.htm</ref>

* When student Rebecca Beach circulated an email at Warren Community College in New Jersey disclosing that decorated Iraq war hero Lt. Col. Scott Rutter would be visiting, English professor John Daly replied: "Real freedom will come when soldiers in Iraq turn their guns on their superiors."<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47461</ref>

*Ward Churchill was fired from the University of Colorado for fabricating his research and for plagiarizing the work of others.

*Richard Lenski of Michigan State University was rude and demeaning when replying to a member of the public who asked about his research.

* When challenged to provide data, professors who support evolution evade the question [http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_talk:Lenski_dialog#Lead_author_won.27t_answer_simple.2C__basic_questions]

*Madonna Constantine, a Columbia University professor claimed she was the victim of racism in the fall of 2007 when a noose was found on her office door. Now she has been fired for plagiarizing the work of other professors and even her own students! [http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/25/plagiarism.professor/]

*Vulgar and viciously bigoted anti-religion (mainly Christianity) University of Minnesota Morris professor and blogger [[Paul Zachary Myers|PZ Myers]] recently raised the hackles of Catholics by stating his desire to desecrate a Holy Communion wafer (viewed by Catholics as the Body of Christ).<ref>http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1459</ref> The resultant outcry from Catholics resulted in the university removing all links to Myers' blog from their website.<ref>http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1460</ref>

*3,200 educators, most of them [[professors]], have signed a letter supporting unrepentant domestic [[terrorist]] and fellow professor [[William Ayers]]. They claim Ayers bombing of the [[Pentagon]] and other [[government]] buildings, his direct involvement in at least three [[deaths]], were just "[[history]]." Notable signers include Professor Rashid Khalidi (No. 5), known for his call to destroy Israel and former professor Ward Churchill (No. 814), claiming the 9/11 victims were Nazis. George Leef, director of research for the John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy, Raleigh, N.C., said, "History should be important to [[teachers]]." <ref>[http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/academics-sign-pro-ayers-petition/ More Than 3,000 Academics Sign Pro-Ayers Petition] Fox News, October 22, 2008</ref>

==References==
<references/>

==Sources==
* [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06"]

==Links==
[http://liberal-education.com Liberal-education.com] A user created list of professors with liberal bias, highlighting examples of liberal bias in the classroom.

[[Category:Academics]]
[[Category:Liberal Traits]]

Talk:Professor values

2008-11-17T01:15:38Z

HSpalding: /* Blatant factual error */ Liberal Party in Australia

There are several things about this page that damage its credibility. It says that no professor who opposed abortion can get tenure, which is plainly not true since many have. One example is the famous conservative blogge Glen Reynolds of Instapundit.

Now professors do have faults -- they can be selfish and even commit murder from time to time (especially Professor Faust). For every possible character flaw there is a professor with it. But as a group professors are more opposed to censorship than any other group in the world (except possibly pornographers?).

And "liberal grading" does not mean giving liberals high grades and conservatives low ones. It means giving everyone a high grade without regard to political orientation or work quality level.

As for evolution: it would be hard for a biologist who doesn't believe in evolution to get tenure because it is impossible to do first rate research in biology without believing in evolution. For example, suppose you're trying to figure out how molecular motors work. If you believe in intelligent design, you consider all kinds of mechanisms that have no evolutionary pathway.

Then there's calling my edit "inappropriate" without saying what about it is inappropriate-- lgm

I think that it is inappropriate to have "crimes by professors" and "immoral, unethical, and bizarre behavior" in this entry. Either have a separate entry, or remove it entirely. Professors have good values too, they are not all completely immoral people who are self-centered and ignorant. -- Aaronp

Why do my edits keep getting reverted? I made factual edits, removing the absolutes that simply aren't true from the article. I have no problem not editing the rest, because obviously removing "Crimes committed by professors" and "Immoral and Unethical Behavior" from an article on professor values is just wrong, but the edits I made about tenure are factually correct. I have helped multiple tenure boards, and I know for a fact that not every single academic institution in the United states, let alone the world, completely dismisses a candidate based on their views on feminism, abortion, and homosexuality. Mind you, tenure confers essentially complete protection from being prosecuted for any sort of indiscretion, so keeping people with strong biases out of tenure is a good thing. I once saw a review board reject a man for tenure because he accidentally blurted out that "all those kids protesting the war should be forced into service" because they "aren't contributing to society". This was an obvious bias he had, and because it was an extreme one he was rejected for tenure. At the same time, however, I've seen a woman who was criticizing feminist values receive tenure, because she presented her thoughts in a clear, precise, and very educated way. Anyone who criticizes a set of values or an action in a biased or bigoted manner obviously isn't going to receive tenure.

Also, the reason that people who criticize evolution often don't receive tenure is because evolution has almost reached dogma-like acceptance in the scientific community. I don't want to get into a debate about evolution, but because it is so accepted, anyone seen criticizing it without scientific proof is generally regarded as not following scientific method. History may vindicate those people who do criticize evolution now, but until then, people will continue to not receive tenure based on their criticisms.

All I want for this page is to remove the absolutes. Not every institution will outright reject a person for their views on feminism, abortion, or homosexuality. It simply is not true. And because this is supposed to be an educational encyclopedia with conservative values, I believe that the information contained within should be accurate. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]

..does [[Richard Dawkins|Dawkins]] fall into this category as well? For example, ''"Liberal politicians are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate."'' [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 13:03, 8 March 2008 (EST)
:No, because he's not a politician, and he does have a doctorate (two, actually, I think). And since you bring it up...Gary Hart also has a doctorate. And, while Dukakis only has a Harvard law degree, his academic work has been in fields where he can most reasonably be considered an expert (public policy). The same can be said of Al Gore (and his have hardly been "high-ranking academic positions"--"visiting" professorships, and non-credit courses). And, finally, Kerrey is an administrator, not an academic.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 20:35, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
::He's not a politician, but he is an [[atheistic]] (and [[liberal]]) figurehead. And I wouldn't be too certain about those doctorates; [[Richard_Dawkins#Position_at_Oxford|it's debatable whether Dawkins is even a real professor]]. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 00:10, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:I removed Hart and Kerrey as examples of "liberal politicians (who) are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate", because (as noted above), Hart has a doctorate, and Kerrey is an administrator (not an academic).--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:18, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::I don't know enough about those politicians in particular to confirm your edits, but your reasoning sounds legitimate. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 22:33, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:::Alternately, I suppose, one could add Hart/Kerrey back to the list and change the wording of the defining phrase to something like, "...given university positions over better-qualified candidates."--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:46, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::Actually, yes, I agree with that. These examples certainly shouldn't be removed on a technicality or a meaningless distinction when the point still stands; changing the wording of the phrase is a much better idea. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 20:56, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

== What is this about? ==

'''What?''' Another article based on an '''unheard-of phrase''' plucked out of the air? This certainly does not look like an encyclopedia article - cf. [[Hollywood values]], [[Liberal friendship]], [[Second generation atheist]], [[Liberal grading]], [[Embraced deceit]], etc. None of these belongs in an encyclopedia. Apart from anything else, who on earth is likely to look up a phrase like "professor values"? Shouldn't an encyclopedia consist of articles on topics that users are likely to look for, not on opinion pieces by its editor-in-chief? What point are you trying to make, exactly? Who is the target of this latest attack? This is the sort of thing I would expect from a blog or a hate-based website, not from a family-friendly and '''trustworthy''' encyclopedia. This sort of thing is making Conservapedia look ridiculous. Or would you like articles on [[Doctor values]], [[Taxi-driver values]] and [[Lawyer values]] as well? If so, I'd be happy to draft them for you! There must be lots to be said about the misdemeanors of all sorts of groups. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:15, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

: I agree that this kind of article could bring legitimate criticism against CP. The major premises are not documented. While some contributers to this article, including those who have made those assertions, say that it is a work in progress and welcome others to document the supposed many examples, there are a pitiful few, some old, some from other countries, and some for extremely prevalent crimes of marijuana possession. I took a long time to find the best possible supporting source for educational stats, and my guess is that the more than 1,200,000 professors currently working in colleges and universities are responsible for a disproportionately SMALL number of crimes. Until I find statistical support for that statement, I won't post it in the article.

: For a collaborative resource like this, I believe it is imperative that any contributor making an assertion, especially critical ones (as opposed to trivia, added dates, etc. -- which ideally should be supported, too), document them appropriately. If not, that sends a poor message to other contributors, editors, and sysops -- to say nothing of users, potential users, and CP critics. It is hardly the kind of example to provide for home-schooled kids learning about proper scholarship. I have looked and looked and find no reliable studies that support the argument that professors are more likely than anybody else to do bad things. Also, no evidence that liberal professors are worse than conservative ones. There are news and blog reports that repeat certain cases, but unless one does an exhaustive search, no conclusions can be drawn. If this article remains, then there should be additional coverage for politicians, clergy, other professions, etc. and they should include misdeeds by conservatives and liberals alike, according to the actual data. Leaving out crimes by conservatives does no one a service. I understand that this is a conservative encyclopedia, but some traits of it purportedly include truthfulness (I'd argue that it is dishonest to tell only partial truths), and to avoid misrepresentation and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:26, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Head's up - this isn't as simple as it may seem ==

As I was doing some admittedly "Google-esque" research, I did find that there are well over 4000 colleges and universities and probably many more than 1,250,000 current faculty. If we work backwards a generation or two, the number increases, of course, which makes it difficult to substantiate the claim that professors are disproportionately likely to commit crimes or other misdeeds, especially if all we cite are fewer than 20 examples of such misdeeds. Looking at campus statistics, many more campus crimes (by far) were committed by students, to say nothing about the many thousands of crimes committed by the general public. So I started doing some informal Google searches for crimes committed by different professions, using -- for lack of a more efficient search method -- "professor arrested," "faculty arrested," etc. along with other professional categories. Combining "faculty" or "professor" and "crime" didn't work well (too many useless hits).
The highest, in that combination alone, was "teacher" (over 190,000 hits), but "mayor" still had more hits (over 27,000) than "faculty" or "professor" (about 14,000). Unfortunately, hits for "pastor," "minister," and "priest," added up to an uncomfortably high number, over 100,000, but then again, if we don't know how many pastors, etc. are out there, we have no percentage to compare them with faculty or other groups. My methodology is rudimentary, but I didn't see any demographic or statistical reports that covered this topic. So, unless we can document this so-called high rate of crime among faculty, perhaps the article should remain mute on the number, relative to other professions. After seeing some statistics about the correlation between educational level and prison population, it also seems like the prison population is much more likely to have no or little education. There are very few PhDs in prisons. Likewise, after seeing these figures, I would guess that the more one is educated, the less likely one is to get felonies or misdemeanors.

So, my question is: do any other contributors to this article have any data at all on this? Is it only anecdotal? If facts can't be documented, then they don't belong in these articles. Especially if the article is questioning the integrity of professors, including their intellectual integrity (like the Korean scientist who established his reputation on cooked data - about which I can find documentation), this article's information should be sound. It is still full of undocumented assertions and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:01, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Tony Blair ==

Huh? How is this not relevant to the article? He has no doctorate, he has been appointed to teach at Yale and he is a liberal politician. --[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:19, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: That appears simply to be a guest lecture appointment.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:42, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
:: You mean just like Al Gore?--[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:54, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
::: Since you don't seem to mind guest lecturers being added to this list, I will put Tony Blair back.

:::Maybe it was Blair's suppoort for the Iraq War that got him his lecturing position. [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 19:46, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

== Really? ==

I just did a google search, and the first few pages of the 735 results don't have any signinifigance to subject at hand. So, here's my question: Did you just make this term up Andy? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: There's a great deal of bias out there, DLerner. That's a reason why we're here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:10, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:: Yes, Andy. But the problem is, there's a great deal of bias here too. Are there any articles critical of conservatives on this site? Believe me conservatives aren't perfect. You didn't answer my question, where is the term "Professor values" from? I know there are a lot of stupid people/policies on colleges (just watch the Penn & Teller episode on [[censorship]]) but that isn't the point. Where is the term from? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:16, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:::Why are you critical of a neologism which points out a legitimate area of concern, DLerner? Examine the case studies, and perhaps you will appreciate why this article is a necessary one. [[User:Koba|Koba]] 12:34, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

::::Koba, the problem with making up a phrase like this is that it's really not meaningful, unless backed up by statistically valid evidence to justify it. Do Charlton Heston and John Wayne fit the profile of "Hollywood Values" as defined here? The examples mentioned in this article are as representative of professors as a category (i.e. a few out of thousands around the world), as they are of males. If this is the encyclopedic standard CP holds to, then I can create a page called "Right-handed values", describing the bad traits of right-handed people and backed by examples of the criminal behavior of some cherry-picked right-handed people, and it would pass muster based on examples like this page that ASchafly endorses.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

''The phrase Professor values refers to the lack of morals and values in the culture of college faculties, which is characterized by atheism, censorship, socialism, unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge, advocacy of liberal beliefs, liberal grading, liberal bias, anti-patriotism, plagiarism, false claims of credentials, lack of productivity, and promotion of sexual immorality.''

Has anyone else seen this "phrase" before? I looked for it. If it's a study, it belongs in an essay not in a article. Personally, I think Andy made it up. (It's a nice slogan though...)

If anyone can make up a term then write an article about it, how's this? "The phrase '''Criminal values''' refers to the lack of respect for the law..." [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:59, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:Indeed - see my comment under "What is this about?", above - which nobody has seen fit to reply to. The proliferation of these flimsy articles is making a mockery of Conservapedia. The latest such nonsense is [[Liberal drivel]], which I assume is a parody - but it's getting harder and harder to distinguish parody from real content. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 13:17, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

== Um... ==
This article serves no purpose... It should be an essay or opinion at the very most --[[User:Helps|Helps]] 11:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

What '''statistical''' evidence is there in this article of atheism, plagiarism, socialism
, censorship etc. This article makes unfounded claims. [[User:Angband|Angband]] 13:18, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: Help find the support for those observations. It's not difficult to find. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:: That is the wrong way to answer a legitimate question, and does a disservice to the students you want using Conservapedia as a legitimate reference source. When a so-called encyclopedic article makes irrational assertions and offers no cited evidence to support them, people are going to question its validity. Your response, "The supporting evidence is out there, help us to find it.", is basically an endorsement of unacademic postings by biased individuals as long as the bias is conservative, and an insult to the moderates who want a Conservative Encyclopedia to be, well, encyclopedic. My suggestion is that if it's not that hard to find the supporting evidence, then the page should be removed until the author can find it him/herself and post it. I'm sure I'll be accused of "Liberal Denial" or "Liberal Apology", or some other "Liberal ---" behavior that's used in place of an academic response, but fair-minded people need to speak up about this.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:I've never been to College in my long life but I must agree. This article is sensationalist tabloidism at its very best. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== First paragraph of article is not adequately supported ==

I do think the listing of the growing problem of professors misdeeds section in the latter part of the article was very informative.

However, I don't think the footnote in the first paragraph adequately supports the first paragraphs contentions. Is plagiarism truly a professor value? If it is, there is absolutely no support for the contention. I don't think that plagiarism is a common value of professor although there may be certainly instances of it. I have read the scientific fraud in the way of fudging experimental results is a significant problem but I have not heard the same regarding plagiarism. I do know that puffing up ones resume is a significant problem in the USA, however, the contention that professors often do it was not supported.

In short, I think the initial paragraph does not follow the conservapedia commandments in regards to proper citation and support. I don't think it is reasonable to ask the reader to do the research for that is getting the cart before the horse. It is the writers job to support the material.

I do recommend the following conservative website in order to help provide adequate support for the article: Accuracy in Academia at http://www.academia.org/

In the meantime, I suggest the article to be pulled from the popular articles at Conservapedia until adequate support is given and that the article have a citation template put on it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:16, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: This is a work-in-progress with 24 references already. There have been numerous instances of plagiarism by professors without any punishment, and those citations will be easy to fill in, and I welcome assistance. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:57, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::It does appear as if liberals are over represented in academia with 90% of professors describing themselves as being liberals or moderates. [http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=s1153nnhjkhr407r6ng6gjg8pvc8g2s8] Therefore, there does appear to be less conservatives in academia. So one would expect there to be more atheist in academia. At the same time , atheism is not a professor value as about 25% of philosophy professors are theist. [http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=880] In the business and engineering departments the percentage of professors being theist is probably higher given that they are more conservative. In regards to plagiarism being a professor value, many instances of professors committing this act does not necessarily constitute it being a professor value. There are a lot of professors in the USA and abroad so the real question what percentage of professors have engaged in plagiarism. In other words, you can can find many instances of men beating their wives in the United States but is wife beating a "male value"? I don't think it is. Again, it comes down to the percentage issue. So to sum up, I think the opening paragraph needs to be less expansive in its claims or provide additional support. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:Even if 25% of philosophy professors were theists, wouldn't this still be lower than the rate of theism in the population as a whole? I do agree with your post in that it should be examined by specific departments. At least at my school, some departments, such as Economics and Geography, do not seem particularly liberal, while a number of others clearly are. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 18:03, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:::DanH, thank you for your polite and kind reply. I do think that liberal ideology and liberals are over represented in academia. However, to call something a "professor value" or "male value" while a significant portion of the population in question does not share a particular value would be over reaching in my estimation. And I do think, for example, that 25% of a given population not sharing a value would be a significant amount of people and be justification for saying a given characteristic was not a value of the population as a whole. However, you can fairly say that a certain value is over represented in a population as a whole if in fact it is. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::: Good cites, Conservative. I've added them. This entry is ranked #1 on Google and is emerging as a significant insight. Professors share a common value system, not unanimously, but in higher percentages of agreement than even some churches. It's enlightening to described the [[professor value]]s and note the harm caused by them. Ideas obviously do have consequences.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
::::: I have a feeling that the majority of the professors at Liberty University might take exception to this article, since by definition these descriptors apply to them. Also, being ranked #1 in this case has more to do with the topic not being recognized as a commonly-used term. If I wrote an article titled "Liberal Klingon Values" it would rank #1 for that search in no time, without being any more relevant.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:29, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

What constitutes "a relatively high" number of instances of crimes or other misdeeds? Compared to other professions? If so, then we'd need to document those comparisons. If there are over 1,200,000 professors currently active in the US alone, then the total cited cases here is an extremely small 0.00125% of that population, about 1.25 evildoers per 100,000 faculty -- and some cited were from former generations or from other countries. Given stats from the National Center for Educational Statistics, the total population of professors would easily be in the multiple millions (depending how far back we'd want to go), making the percentage of the population amazingly miniscule. Some of the crimes or other behavior in the list refers to things that the general public is probably even more likely to do, including stalking family, drug possession, etc. -- in other words, not things that are unique to professors at all. I'd say the % of pastors and other religious leaders who have gotten themselves into hot water is embarrassingly high (sexual immorality, misuse of church funds, etc.) and perhaps higher than that of the professoriate. Maybe comparing the professors to the general population would show that professors are more or less likely than the general population to commit crimes. Also, to be fair and honest according to the Commandments, this article should report the academic/moral/financial misdeeds -- some very high profile -- of conservative academics, including events at several Christian colleges and universities, indluding former faculty and university presidents. Making unfounded statements in an encyclopedia article, especially if the statements are inflammatory, is antithetical to the whole idea of honest scholarship -- which is ironic, considering the topic of this article! [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:25, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

== Title of the article should be "liberals and academia" and not "professor values" ==

I do believe upon sound research that people are not going to find this article based on a search of "professor values".

Here are the Google results of "professor values" and you will notice that all 715 results have nothing to do with the article we have: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Professor+Values%22&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

On the other hand if you do a search on "liberals in academia" you will get 8,450 results and all are related to our article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22liberals+in+academia%22&btnG=Search

While I do think it is great to have a #1 Google entry in terms of getting exposure to Conservapedia I do think you have to begin with the end in mind and bring people to Conservapedia who are interested in a particular issue. I do realize that it is sometimes beneficial to pursue long tail marketing and dominate less competitive search queries over a long period of time, however, it does not appear as if anyone is typing in "professor values" to find the subject material of our article. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:33, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

I hesitate to point this out again (I mentioned it above), but what of crimes and other misdeeds committed by conservative academics? A number of leaders of Christian colleges and universities have, for example, abused authority, horribly misused funds for private -- and sometimes extravagant -- entertainment, travel, or shopping, or have had immoral sexual affairs. Not including information about these instances, or even acknowleding their existence, is a serious and dishonest error of omission. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:28, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

==Professor Values on Wikipedia==

Seems the article was put up on Wikipedia and is now up for deletion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Values

This thing really doesn't belong on an encyclopedia. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 07:18, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Not on wikipedia, maybe (not least, because it was ''plagiarized'' from here!) - but it seems perfectly at home in this encyclopedia. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 12:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: I bet you think [[Hollywood values]] should be censored also!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:12, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::: Actually, yeah, that's a dumb article too. --[[User:DJBlair|DJBlair]] 14:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Yes, I think any article that is just 'made up' is neither trustworthy or encyclopedic. I wouldn't let my kids near this site (or Wikipedia for that matter, but thats a story for another day) [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::In a strange bout of irony the WP ''Professor Values'' article now ranks higher than the CP version. [[User:TheGySom|TheGySom]] 08:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::: It didn't take long for the [[liberals]] on Wikipedia to delete its entry! It's gone.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

==Catholic schools==

Should abuse by priests in catholic schools deserve its own article entitles, [[Priest Values]]? Of course not, because the abuse committed by some priests is not indicative of the entire group. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:42, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
:You're making a big mistake, you think this "encyclopedia"  is governed by logic and reason, it isn't. -- '''[[user:DLerner|D L e r n e r]]''' [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DLerner Articulate] 20:48, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: DLerner was blocked for his repeated derogatory comments, and "LeaningRight" you should be blocked for your 90/10 [[rule]] violation against talk, talk, talk.

:: This [[professor values]] lists the commonly held values and consequences of those values. Your suggestion does not fit that model, and your suggestion is ludicrous.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:17, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Whatever. By the way, check my contributions, specifically to the India article. I have not broken any rules that I know of. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:31, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
:This is a link to my mainspace contributions: http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?offset=&limit=50&target=LeaningRight&title=Special%3AContributions&namespace=0 [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:33, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: LeaningRight, you wrote, "I have not broken any rules that I know of." That is known as [[deliberate ignorance]], and it's not an excuse. Your last ten contributions have been all talk, and that violates the 90/10 [[rule]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:32, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Please have a little respect and don't talk to me like a child. I'm a middle aged man with children and I find that highly disrespectful. Have a glance at my contributions. I wasn't even aware of this 90/10 rule until you brought it up so its ignorance, but not 'deliberate'. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 15:26, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: You responded to my citation to our very simple set of [[rules]] with "Whatever" and "I have not broken any rules that I know of." Your response was ''after'' I directed you to the very simple set of rules.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:10, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Go and meet someone who doesn't agree with what you believe. I can guarantee you it will be quite refreshing. I'm taking a week off before I lose any faith I have ever had in the American people. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 16:15, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::You really ought to watch how you talk to good editors, Andy. Your attitude isn't helping Conservapedia one bit. [[User:ShaggerNorris|ShaggerNorris]] 18:30, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

Andy, if you hope to gain the respect of the mainstream, and avoid being an object of ridicule at RW and everywhere else, provide a solid case instead of anecdotes [[User:Innsmouth1|Innsmouth1]] 19:09, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
: What's RW? [[User:Alberti|Alberti]] 10:19, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

== Removal of bias ==
The bias that was removed should have been kept in. It was a fair point and was correct.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 17:55, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:But it wasn't conservative. This isn't liberalpedia. Why is that so hard for you to understand? --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 17:59, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Are you kidding? A fact is a fact. A fair and correct point is not aligned with politcal leanings. Why is that so hard to understand?
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:01, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What specifically do you think was fair? The stuff I removed was unjustified liberal bias.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

"However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeed"
Its not bias, it is fact. It is not valid that professors are more likely to commit crimes (at least the validity has not been proven here) and by removing this section it sounds more and more like opinion as opposed to an encyclopedia entry. I know you wont budge on this though and any attempt in me to argue or revert will be meet with an arbitary block so I'll turn my attention to less volitile entries.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, something is not a fact just because it is written down somewhere. Liberal journalists that quote liberal studies that are furnished by liberal organizations do not produce fact - they produce nonsense. Please keep your gibberish out of this site. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable talking about your "facts" over at [[Wikipedia]]. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:12, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ, people sharing common values do tend to act in similar ways. Ideas do matter. Surely you don't think all the problems in Hollywood are purely coincidental with [[Hollywood values]]!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

My quibble was not whether ideas or shared values matter, it was that factual and relevant material was removed as bias.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:45, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, your "facts" were discussed already. We know you can read, so quit playing stupid. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Frank.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:52, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: AdenJ, people who disrespect the law are more likely to commit crimes. That's logic, and does not require a citation. [[Professor values]] include a disrespect for rule of law, among other things.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, and for the last time before I slam my head on the table, I was querying why good stats were removed from this article which show that crime amoung professors is not disproportionate. Apparently its not factual, according to you and Frank. End of discussion.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 20:08, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What statistics are you describing? Merely an estimate of the total number of professors? That doesn't demonstrate anything about proportionate crime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:14, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
:: The stats I cited, which were removed by you, were from a standard statistical source (see the original citation) and the very high number of professors that exist make the isolated examples provided in the article statistically insignificant. It would be interesting to compare relative crime rates for various professions -- then we'd be able to say that professors are more likely or less likely to commit crimes. I spent a lot of time tracking down those stats and was surprised that you removed them because of "liberal" bias. As my contributions to this Talk page show, I felt uncomfortable seeing ungrounded assertions about professors being disproportionately likely to commit crimes. The few examples are incidental and anecdotal -- they are not statistically significant and one cannot use them to justify the conclusion that professors are more likely to commit crimes than others. Plenty of crimes are committed by teachers, pastors, politicians, business people, and so on -- but no evidence has been supplied to show that they commit crimes less often than professors. I believe my statement was taken away not because it is inherently liberal -- it is attitude neutral -- but rather because the data seriously challenged the validity of the premise of the whole article. After a lot of reading on this in support of my since-removed contributions, I would imagine that, taken as a group, professors are much less likely to commit crimes than many other professions. To prove that, I'd have to do more research and document it well, which I don't have the time to do. The same should be done if one wanted to document that they are MORE likely to commit crimes, but for now those assertions in the article remain unsupported except by isolated examples. That is a very bad example to set for any students, home-schooled or not. My contributions attempted to raise the research standard of the article and I believe the data I supplied were inappropriately removed. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 20:48, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

: I looked for, but could not find, the edit you're describing above. But note that the frequency of crime is not the only issue; the nature of the crimes also matters. Also, it's meaningless to compare wealthy, pampered, highly educated professors to the general population in terms of crime. Any comparison would have to factor in demographic, privilege, and background info.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:: If it is, as you say, "meaningless to compare wealthy... professors to the general population in terms of crime," then we should remove the entire block of "Crimes by Professors." The number cited is incredibly small, compared with the total number of professors out there, and unless you are positing that they commit crimes with disproportionate frequency (which the article seems to be implying), then it really doesn't have a purpose. We might as well start sections with anecdotal evidence about crimes for several professions. Actually, crime would be the easiest of the categories mentioned in the article to prove. Bullying, etc. may well take place, and some professors are true jerks, but there is not official documentation about instances of promoting immorality, bias against conservatives in classrooms, etc. Anyway, the problem I see with this article is that readers may notice that there is no support of the major assertions except for a handful of examples, some from other countries, one more than 25 years old, and one about a professor being fined $50 for mooning a child. I would suggest that we find documentation to support this article's assertions, call the article an editorial, or delete it entirely. If we look at the nature of the crimes, as you suggest, there are some murders, but also marijuana possession, mooning, attempting to defraud a hospital trust, stalking, possession of child porn, and others -- but not even close to what happens in one major city in one day. Attempting to smear an entire profession based on these examples and no real data is not scholarship. Conservapedia can do better and it should, if it is to be taken seriously. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 1:48, 22 April 2008 (CDT).

::: You didn't respond to my points. The nature of the crimes is as important as their volume, perhaps more so. And, no, we're not going to limit ourselves here to what is recognized by [[liberal]] newspapers and censored journals. Conservapedia reaches beyond what is already widely available, and we're not going to fall for the [[deliberate ignorance]] that plagues less useful resources.

::: Finally, your statement that "some professors are true jerks" obviously misses the point. The problem is not the "jerks", but the "values".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:::: I thought I'd addressed the main points you'd asked about, but I'll try again. Frequency of crime is indeed an issue if this article is trying to assert that professors commit crimes proportionally more than those in other specific professions, other professions in general, the general public -- you name it. To prove that they commit more crimes than other groups based on the tiny number of examples is ridiculous. Yes, frequency is not the only issue and the nature of the crimes also matters. But as my comment above shows, the crimes cited in the article, as bad as they are, are not all as bad as, say, murder. Besides murder, there is pot possession, the mooning of a child, stalking, possession of child porn, attempting to defraud a hospital trust. So, to the extent that all crime is bad, then all of those are bad things and I trust that the perps got their just desserts. But are those crimes any more heinous than those committed by any number of people of all kinds of professions, by the rich, by the poor, by politicians, etc. If we do factor in "demographic... and other background info," how would the picture look? Well, we don't really know, do we, because we know of no such studies, if there are any out there. So until we have some kind of actual data to go on, this article should remain silent on the issue (or not exist) or else it will look to readers more like an editorial rather than an encyclopedia article based on factual sources. You'd also asked about the source for my stats. I searched for a long time to find good, reliable numbers regarding professors and other employees in colleges and universities in the United States. Here is the quote you removed, along with the citation:
::::: "However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds.<ref>National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06" [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list]</ref>"
:::: Looking at it again, I should have been clearer by adding something to the effect that "because the professoriate is so large, it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than other groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds based on a small sample of reported crimes unless the group and its crime rates are compared with those of other professionals or the general public." I also should have place the stats citation right after I mentioned the number of professors. The source supports that information and not the rest of the sentence. While I could have been clearer, the statement should not have been removed because you were "cleaning out liberal bias." What is liberal about that statement? I was trying to make the article more substantial and accurate. There are clearly claims in the article that are unsupported and therefore in violation of the Conservapedia Commandments, and I was doing research to find accurate data about the population under discussion. It was only a start and I was enjoying the research, but having my contribution yanked was like getting an unwarranted suckerpunch. In a sense, you did what you accuse professors of doing: you bullied someone you thought had an opposing point of view. Trying to verify facts and add documentation is neither liberal nor conservative - it is research. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 22:51:48, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

== [[Debate:Are Liberals fundamentally evil?|Liberal]] professor [[PZ Myers]] just linked to this article ==

[http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/a_temporary_palliative.php Here]. Be on the watch for vandals. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 13:20, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

== this article is ridiculous ==

it's kind of funny actually [[User:NRupert|NRupert]] 13:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Liberal fluff ==

The statement that "it appears that intelligent people sometimes hold these values" is [[liberal fluff]]. It's meaningless. Intelligent people "sometimes" hold almost any value, no matter how wanton or absurd.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:57, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

==Recent edit==
As much as I dislike this entire article, I restrained myself and only removed a section lacking a citation. The citations are generally well groomed in this article, so let's keep up the same standards on the whole thing. IMHO, this is and should remain a highly opinionated essay ONLY, though, not an article. What will the liberals say to us next if they see this? I'm an ashamed conservative to have to read this.[[User:Bender2982|Bender2982]] 18:13, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

: Invoking "shame" is trademark [[liberal style]], Bender. I doubt you're fooling anyone here by claiming you're a conservative. By the way, I added a reference for the material you removed, a reference that took me less than one minute to find. You could have done likewise. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:16, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:: Actually, you added only One reference to One of the points. But in doing so you went from saying, "Some" boards "have been known to", to the more unequivocal, "Faculty boards block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:" Unless you are going to once again provide the word, "Some", as a moderate you are going to need to provide more than one reference to make a blanket and unqualified statement. Oh, and the reference you used said that they took his position into consideration for their decision. A far cry from stating that faculty boards block the granting, etc. as if it was a written policy. A phrase more in line with your example would be, "Some faculty boards have used the following criteria in blocking the granting of a tenured professorship..." --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 18:24, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

== Blatant factual error ==

In the article, Alexander Downer is quoted as being a 'liberal' politician who received an academic position. Unfortunately, despite being a previously prominent member of the Liberal Party of Australia, in Australia this means something quite different. Alexander Downer was one of the most conservative politicians in Australia in the last decade. As a matter of personal opinion, I'd say he'd be the 5th-most conservative mainstream politican in Australia.

: What are his positions on abortion, gay rights and gun control? The way you phrase your comment, I'd guess he is a [[liberal]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:32, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

:: Aschlafly, the Liberal Party in Australia is actually a conservative party. Liberal in this case means free-market liberal. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 20:15, 16 November 2008 (EST)

== Doctor values? ==

Please could someone explain in what way the long list of crimes committed by people who happen to be professors has any connection at all to the values of the huge majority of professors who are decent people?

If you want to be consistent, why not start a page called Doctor Values, headed by Harold Shipman. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 19:49, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Professor values

2008-11-17T01:04:32Z

HSpalding: OK CSGuy, that should be clearer now

'''Professor values''' refer to the common value system embraced by a large percentage of [[professor]]s, just as [[Hollywood values]] refers to the common value system of many in [[Hollywood]] and the entertainment industry.

An extremely high percentage of professors disagree with [[conservative]] principles.<ref>"90 percent of United States professors called themselves liberal or moderate .[http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/]</ref> Professors' common value system typically includes [[atheism]], [[censorship]], [[socialism]], unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge (for example, the dogmatic promotion of the [[Theory of Evolution|theory of evolution]],<ref>For example, a $100,000 "environmental" prize was awarded for work on a [[politically correct]] "theory of convergent evolution." [http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/4/4/briefBiologyProfAwardedEnvironmentalAchievementPrize]</ref> [[liberаl]] beliefs, [[liberal grading]], [[liberal bias]],<ref>http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2005/08/26/johnson</ref> anti-patriotism, lack of productivity, [[bullying]] or discouraging [[conservative]] students (for example, homeschoolers),<ref>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/21/AR2008032101451.html</ref><ref>http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/488/NCliberalbiasagnstcons060104.htm</ref> and promotion of sexual immorality.<ref>http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2001/oct_2001_4.html</ref><ref>http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/1998/october_1998_1.html</ref>
In a Zogby poll, 58% of [[Americans]] said that the bias of professors is a serious problem, while 39% said it is a "very serious" problem.<ref name="zogby">http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1334</ref> The survey demonstrated further that "an overwhelming majority also believe that job security for college professors leaves them less motivated to do a good job than those professors who do not enjoy a tenured status - 65% said they believe non-tenured professors are more motivated to do a good job in the classroom."<ref name="zogby" /> One study in 2008 found that "[[Texas]] university professors overwhelmingly favor
[[Democratic]] candidates in their campaign contributions."<ref>http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5753471.html</ref>

Professors sometimes engage in wrongdoing while completing research. "About 1,000 potential incidents of fabrication, falsification or plagiarism in scientific research go unreported every year, according to a survey that suggests such misconduct is far more prevalent than suspected. ... 22 percent was by a professor or senior scientist."<ref>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aYFanemP24yM&refer=home</ref>

Faculty boards have been known to (on multiple occasions) block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:

* criticize the [[theory of evolution]]<ref>"As reported last week, two members of the department that denied tenure to astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State University (ISU) have publicly admitted that Gonzalez's work on intelligent design played a role in his denial of tenure." [http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/iowa_state_avoids_key_question.html]</ref>
* criticize [[feminism]]
* criticize [[abortion]]
* oppose the [[homosexual agenda]]
* criticize the [[liberal bias]] in [[academia]] itself

For example, professors at [[Washington University]] wore white armbands to protest an award of an honorary degree to [[Phyllis Schlafly]], a noted [[conservative]], in an act of political partisanship and utter unprofessionality.<ref>http://publicbroadcasting.net/kwmu/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1279565&sectionID=1</ref> At the [[University of Chicago]], more than one hundred professors signed a letter to protest a proposal to honor [[conservative]]-leaning [[Nobel Prize]]-winning colleague [[Milton Friedman]].<ref>http://bourdaghs.com/blog.html?p=484</ref>

Politicians, especially [[liberal]] ones, are routinely given high-ranking academic positions. Examples of politicians with liberal tendencies appointed as professors include:

* [[Al Gore]]<ref>Beginning early in 2001, "Gore will be [at UCLA] to develop a new curriculum for family-centered community building, a multidisciplinary approach that brings together authorities from such fields as education, business and public policy to work on problems that ail our society and affect our children. ... He also will be teaching at three other universities - Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro and Fisk University in Nashville - in addition to his teaching and research work at UCLA." [http://spotlight.ucla.edu/special-guests/al-gore_teach/]</ref>
*[[Michael Dukakis]]
*[[Gary Hart]]
*[[Bob Kerrey]]
*[[Tony Blair]]<ref>Blair was given a prestigious visiting lectureship.</ref>
*[[Tom Kean]]

Conservative politicians are also often appointed as professors, including:
*[[Alexander Downer]]<ref>Downer is so pro-[[abortion]] that, as Foreign Minister of Australia, he "asked for a review of the government's ban on funding for abortion services in other countries."[http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/51731.php]</ref>

==Crimes and Alleged Crimes by Professors==
* Sociology professor Hassan Diab arrested for his involvement in the 1980 bombing of a synagogue which killed four. <ref>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081113/diab_arrest_081113/20081113?hub=TopStories</ref>

* "A college professor accused of intercepting the e-mail of a student with whom he had an affair has pleaded not guilty to the charges. Stephan Grzeskowiak, 34, entered the plea .... A federal grand jury has indicted the former assistant professor of marketing ... on five counts of intercepting electronic communications and one count of computer fraud. He is accused of intercepting e-mails and instant messages on a computer used by the woman in May 2007."<ref>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-professor-hacking,0,2077856.story</ref>

* "Vanderbilt University professor James J. Lang was arrested Friday evening in Fairview on a charge of receipt of child pornography."<ref>http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080913/NEWS03/809130338/1017/news01</ref>

* Carnegie Mellon University computer science professor Jeffrey Hunker, 51, "was charged with drunken driving three times in eight days" in August 2008 and, as a result, prosecutors asked the judge to imprison him. He had worked in the Clinton Administration and was driving his new BMW when stopped for the third time.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,412801,00.html</ref>

* University of Iowa political science professor "Arthur H. Miller, 66, has been accused of demanding sexual favors from students in exchange for better grades .... He was arrested on four counts of bribery, a class C felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison ...."<ref>http://iowaindependent.com/3876/ui-mired-in-another-sex-scandal</ref> After being released without bail, Miller then disappeared and police wasted thousands of dollars looking for him.<ref>http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080822/NEWS/27671323/0/FRONTPAGE</ref> Later his body was found in a park. "He died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound."<ref>http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080826/NEWS/80826009/-1/LIFE04</ref>

* Arkansas Tech University chemistry professor Albert Snow, 33 years old, was sentenced to 10 years in jail "on a charge he stalked a person he believed was a teenage girl on the Internet." "Snow was arrested in January 2007 after showing up at a Russellville apartment complex where police say he expected to meet a 15-year-old girl."<ref>http://www.wreg.com/Global/story.asp?S=8803789</ref>

* At Northern Kentucky University, language and literature professor Sally Jacobsen incited some of her students to vandalize a pro-life display by Northern Right to Life, the campus pro-life group. Jacobsen herself also participated in the vandalism, which involved destroying rows of white crosses symbolizing the graves of aborted children. Jacobsen justified the vandalism as free speech, stating, "I did, outside of class during the break, invite students to express their freedom-of-speech rights to destroy the display if they wished to." Jacobsen was unrepentant until given the choice of facing criminal charges of theft, criminal mischief and criminal solicitation or apologizing. Jacobsen chose the latter and also paid Northern Right to Life for damage to the display. Jacobsen was suspended by the university and subsequently retired.<ref>http://www.lifenews.com/state3207.html</ref>

* College of New Jersey adjunct professor of engineering Bruce R. McKenna, 43, "surrendered to authorities after allegedly having sexually explicit conversations with an undercover officer posing as a teenage girl." He was "charged with six counts of attempting to endanger the welfare of a child, six counts of attempted sexual contact, sexual assault and attempted luring. ... Before McKenna was arrested, the situation escalated to the point where the professor was allegedly trying to meet with a 13-year-old girl."[http://www.nj.com/news/gloucester/local/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1218698712309020.xml&coll=8]

* "A [[South Korea]]n court Monday sentenced a former university art professor to 18 months in jail for forging her [[US]] degree certificates, officials said. The Seoul District Criminal Court found Shin Jeong-Ah guilty of forging undergraduate and master's degrees from the [[University of Kansas]] and [[Yale University]] to secure a job at Seoul's Dongguk university."<ref>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jCfPQ1_mqM2VaXzQUSy-mXwQIvXQ</ref>

* [[Villanova University]] professor Edward R. Ritter was arrested on March 21, 2008, and charged with selling marijuana to undercover police officers, and a subsequent search of his home uncovered 19 bags of marijuana.<ref>http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20080322_Villanova_professor_arrested_on_drug_charges.html</ref>

* Kansas State University English professor Thomas Murray was a popular teacher, but he was convicted of murdering his ex-wife with 17 stab wounds and blunt trauma to her head. She "was found dead in her bedroom atop a dresser."<ref name="ctv">http://www.courttv.com/trials/murray/backgrounder_ctv.html</ref> Professor Murray had written several books, including "The Language of Sadomasochism."<ref name="ctv" /> He did not testify in his defense and spoke only at sentencing, where he called the state's case a "fairy tale."<ref>http://www.kansaspublicradio.org/newsstory.php?itemID=5892</ref>

* Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine Anatomy associate professor Peter Alan Rogers, 59, was arrested on Apr. 21, 2008 on a charge of possession of child pornography on a school laptop computer.<ref>http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2008/04/24/professor_0425.html</ref>

* Shortly after the end of the school year and his contract, Marshall University Psychiatry associate professor John M. Adams burglarized and murdered Bobby Burns on July 2, 2003, and then kidnapped two women and forced them to drive him across the Ohio River.<ref>http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/07/29/loc_ohprofessor29.html</ref>

* University of South Florida professor Sami al-Arian pled guilty to "aiding a terrorist group" and was "sentenced to 57 months in prison."<ref name="nysun">http://www.nysun.com/article/72228</ref><ref>http://www.mysuncoast.com/Global/story.asp?S=7961089&nav=menu577_2_1</ref> He then "spent more than a year in civil contempt after refusing to appear before two grand juries investigating Islamic charities in Northern Virginia."<ref name="nysun" />

* Claremont McKenna College visiting professor Kerri Dunn was sentenced to a year in state prison after she was found guilty of staging a phony [[hate crime]], in which she "spray-painted her car with racist and anti-Semitic slurs and then reported a hate crime on campus."<ref>http://www.knbc.com/education/3998600/detail.html</ref>

* University of Hawaii professor Marc Fossorier was arrested and later convicted and sentenced to one year in jail for attempting a sex crime with a girl apparently only 15 years old.<ref>http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4582/40/</ref>

* A [[New Jersey]] Cumberland County College professor "was arrested on charges of harassment, trespassing and stalking."<ref>http://www.thedailyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/NEWS01/80305019/1002</ref>

* University of Central Florida political science professor Michael Shawn Reichert was arrested for having "a stash of more than 100 child pornography pictures on his work computer," "plus three pornographic movies."<ref>http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2007/07/ucf-professor-a.html</ref>

* [[University of Wisconsin]] adjunct professor Victor M. Zamudio-Taylor resigned after being charged with viewing child-pornography in a campus computer laboratory.<ref>http://badgerherald.com/news/2002/03/19/uwmilwaukee_professo.php</ref>

* Concordia University professor Valery Fabrikant shot and killed four other professors in 1992. <ref>http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/01/25/qc-valeryfabrikant0125.html</ref>

* A [[British]] university professor was jailed for ten months for plotting to defraud a hospital trust. <ref>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010626/ai_n14398964</ref>

* [[French]] [[Marxist]] [[structuralist]] [[philosopher]] Professor [[Louis Althusser]] (1918-1990) killed his wife in 1980 and was afterwards confined to a psychiatric hospital.

* Professor Daniel Storm, of the University of Washington, flushed 4 liters of the flammable solvent ethyl ether down the sink, rather than pay the safe disposal fees. Assistant U.S. Attorney Jim Oesterle said that his using an axe to open the containers was particularly dangerous because a spark could easily have ignited the ether. <ref>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003607035_uwprof08m0.html</ref>

* An Associate Professor at Youngstown State University was locked up and fined $50 after baring his buttocks in front of children at a county fair. <ref>http://www.thejambar.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=38283b71-1223-4e85-929f-ba0f932d5366</ref>

* Philosophy professor [[Abimael Guzman]] of the National University of San Cristobal de Huamanga in [[Peru]] founded the bloodthirsty [[Shining Path]] organization, one of the most violent terrorist groups of recent decades.

* A childcare lecturer at Athlone Institute of Technology, [[Ireland]], was convicted of sexual assault while on a trip to [[Amsterdam]]. Despite this, AIT let him keep his job - until the crime was exposed in the local media.<ref>http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/0415/ireland/mhojqlidcwid/</ref>

* A lecturer in sexual health at the University College of Medicine, [[Cardiff]], [[United Kingdom]] was fined £3,000 for child pornography offenses. <ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1497151.stm</ref>

* University of Tennessee Physics professor, J. Reece Roth has been found guilty of passing U.S. Air Force secrets to [[China]] and [[Iran]]. Jury concluded he was guilty on 18 counts of conspiracy, fraud and violating the Arms Export Control Act. <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/us/professor_secrets/2008/09/03/127312.html Tenn. Professor Guilty of Passing Military Secrets] AP, September 3, 2008</ref>

==Immoral, Unethical, or Bizarre Behavior==
*A Texas Southern University professor is being investigated for allegedly plagiarizing his grant proposal [http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6085039.html]

*The President of the University of Texas-Pan American is under investigation after allegations that she [[Plagiarism|plagiarized]] her 1974 dissertation <ref>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jigNGLtg9PtFNelXVdVdNFVfb48wD943SDH03</ref>.

* An [[Iowa]] community college [[president]] resigned after publication of a photo that appeared to show him pouring beer into a young woman's [[mouth]]. But the [[school]]'s board of trustees approved a [[severance package]] that officials said was [[value]]d at about $400,000 plus benefits.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,413101,00.html</ref>

* A Kansas university professor, Fort Hays State University debate coach William Shanahan, "is under fire after a video showing him mooning a room full of students and faculty during a heated debate found its way onto YouTube." He "is shown on the video in a profane, in-your-face argument with his counterpart from the University of Pittsburgh ...."[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403781,00.html Kansas Professor in Trouble for Mooning Incident]

*Emory University History Professor of History [[Michael Bellesiles]], a [[gun control]] advocate, wrote a book entitled ''Arming America, The Origins of a National Gun Culture'' (2000). Gary Wills gave it a glowing review in ''The New York Times'', but admitted later that "I was took. The book is a fraud."<ref>Jonah Goldberg, [http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_501644.html ''Reports of the 2nd Amendment's death have been greatly exaggerated ...''] Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Apr. 8, 2007.</ref> Bellesiles resigned from his position as Professor of History when an independent committee of scholars examined his work and concluded that "his scholarly integrity is seriously in question."<ref>http://hnn.us/articles/1069.html</ref>

*According to one columnist, 88 Duke professors -- more than 10 percent of the Duke professorial faculty - endorsed and published an advertisement hurtful to students who had been wrongly accused of rape during a lacrosse team party, which "helped create the lynch-mob atmosphere."<ref>http://www.nypost.com/seven/03232007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/duke__who_wont_pay_opedcolumnists_john_podhoretz.htm</ref>

* When student Rebecca Beach circulated an email at Warren Community College in New Jersey disclosing that decorated Iraq war hero Lt. Col. Scott Rutter would be visiting, English professor John Daly replied: "Real freedom will come when soldiers in Iraq turn their guns on their superiors."<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47461</ref>

*Ward Churchill was fired from the University of Colorado for fabricating his research and for plagiarizing the work of others.

*Richard Lenski of Michigan State University was rude and demeaning when replying to a member of the public who asked about his research.

* When challenged to provide data, professors who support evolution evade the question [http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_talk:Lenski_dialog#Lead_author_won.27t_answer_simple.2C__basic_questions]

*Madonna Constantine, a Columbia University professor claimed she was the victim of racism in the fall of 2007 when a noose was found on her office door. Now she has been fired for plagiarizing the work of other professors and even her own students! [http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/25/plagiarism.professor/]

*Vulgar and viciously bigoted anti-religion (mainly Christianity) University of Minnesota Morris professor and blogger [[Paul Zachary Myers|PZ Myers]] recently raised the hackles of Catholics by stating his desire to desecrate a Holy Communion wafer (viewed by Catholics as the Body of Christ).<ref>http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1459</ref> The resultant outcry from Catholics resulted in the university removing all links to Myers' blog from their website.<ref>http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1460</ref>

*3,200 educators, most of them [[professors]], have signed a letter supporting unrepentant domestic [[terrorist]] and fellow professor [[William Ayers]]. They claim Ayers bombing of the [[Pentagon]] and other [[government]] buildings, his direct involvement in at least three [[deaths]], were just "[[history]]." Notable signers include Professor Rashid Khalidi (No. 5), known for his call to destroy Israel and former professor Ward Churchill (No. 814), claiming the 9/11 victims were Nazis. George Leef, director of research for the John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy, Raleigh, N.C., said, "History should be important to [[teachers]]." <ref>[http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/academics-sign-pro-ayers-petition/ More Than 3,000 Academics Sign Pro-Ayers Petition] Fox News, October 22, 2008</ref>

==References==
<references/>

==Sources==
* [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06"]

==Links==
[http://liberal-education.com Liberal-education.com] A user created list of professors with liberal bias, highlighting examples of liberal bias in the classroom.

[[Category:Academics]]
[[Category:Liberals]]

Talk:Professor values

2008-11-17T00:49:47Z

HSpalding: /* Doctor values? */ new section

There are several things about this page that damage its credibility. It says that no professor who opposed abortion can get tenure, which is plainly not true since many have. One example is the famous conservative blogge Glen Reynolds of Instapundit.

Now professors do have faults -- they can be selfish and even commit murder from time to time (especially Professor Faust). For every possible character flaw there is a professor with it. But as a group professors are more opposed to censorship than any other group in the world (except possibly pornographers?).

And "liberal grading" does not mean giving liberals high grades and conservatives low ones. It means giving everyone a high grade without regard to political orientation or work quality level.

As for evolution: it would be hard for a biologist who doesn't believe in evolution to get tenure because it is impossible to do first rate research in biology without believing in evolution. For example, suppose you're trying to figure out how molecular motors work. If you believe in intelligent design, you consider all kinds of mechanisms that have no evolutionary pathway.

Then there's calling my edit "inappropriate" without saying what about it is inappropriate-- lgm

I think that it is inappropriate to have "crimes by professors" and "immoral, unethical, and bizarre behavior" in this entry. Either have a separate entry, or remove it entirely. Professors have good values too, they are not all completely immoral people who are self-centered and ignorant. -- Aaronp

Why do my edits keep getting reverted? I made factual edits, removing the absolutes that simply aren't true from the article. I have no problem not editing the rest, because obviously removing "Crimes committed by professors" and "Immoral and Unethical Behavior" from an article on professor values is just wrong, but the edits I made about tenure are factually correct. I have helped multiple tenure boards, and I know for a fact that not every single academic institution in the United states, let alone the world, completely dismisses a candidate based on their views on feminism, abortion, and homosexuality. Mind you, tenure confers essentially complete protection from being prosecuted for any sort of indiscretion, so keeping people with strong biases out of tenure is a good thing. I once saw a review board reject a man for tenure because he accidentally blurted out that "all those kids protesting the war should be forced into service" because they "aren't contributing to society". This was an obvious bias he had, and because it was an extreme one he was rejected for tenure. At the same time, however, I've seen a woman who was criticizing feminist values receive tenure, because she presented her thoughts in a clear, precise, and very educated way. Anyone who criticizes a set of values or an action in a biased or bigoted manner obviously isn't going to receive tenure.

Also, the reason that people who criticize evolution often don't receive tenure is because evolution has almost reached dogma-like acceptance in the scientific community. I don't want to get into a debate about evolution, but because it is so accepted, anyone seen criticizing it without scientific proof is generally regarded as not following scientific method. History may vindicate those people who do criticize evolution now, but until then, people will continue to not receive tenure based on their criticisms.

All I want for this page is to remove the absolutes. Not every institution will outright reject a person for their views on feminism, abortion, or homosexuality. It simply is not true. And because this is supposed to be an educational encyclopedia with conservative values, I believe that the information contained within should be accurate. -- [[User:Aaronp|Aaronp]]

..does [[Richard Dawkins|Dawkins]] fall into this category as well? For example, ''"Liberal politicians are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate."'' [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 13:03, 8 March 2008 (EST)
:No, because he's not a politician, and he does have a doctorate (two, actually, I think). And since you bring it up...Gary Hart also has a doctorate. And, while Dukakis only has a Harvard law degree, his academic work has been in fields where he can most reasonably be considered an expert (public policy). The same can be said of Al Gore (and his have hardly been "high-ranking academic positions"--"visiting" professorships, and non-credit courses). And, finally, Kerrey is an administrator, not an academic.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 20:35, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
::He's not a politician, but he is an [[atheistic]] (and [[liberal]]) figurehead. And I wouldn't be too certain about those doctorates; [[Richard_Dawkins#Position_at_Oxford|it's debatable whether Dawkins is even a real professor]]. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 00:10, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:I removed Hart and Kerrey as examples of "liberal politicians (who) are routinely given high-ranking academic positions despite a lack of a doctorate", because (as noted above), Hart has a doctorate, and Kerrey is an administrator (not an academic).--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:18, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::I don't know enough about those politicians in particular to confirm your edits, but your reasoning sounds legitimate. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 22:33, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
:::Alternately, I suppose, one could add Hart/Kerrey back to the list and change the wording of the defining phrase to something like, "...given university positions over better-qualified candidates."--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 22:46, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
::Actually, yes, I agree with that. These examples certainly shouldn't be removed on a technicality or a meaningless distinction when the point still stands; changing the wording of the phrase is a much better idea. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 20:56, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

== What is this about? ==

'''What?''' Another article based on an '''unheard-of phrase''' plucked out of the air? This certainly does not look like an encyclopedia article - cf. [[Hollywood values]], [[Liberal friendship]], [[Second generation atheist]], [[Liberal grading]], [[Embraced deceit]], etc. None of these belongs in an encyclopedia. Apart from anything else, who on earth is likely to look up a phrase like "professor values"? Shouldn't an encyclopedia consist of articles on topics that users are likely to look for, not on opinion pieces by its editor-in-chief? What point are you trying to make, exactly? Who is the target of this latest attack? This is the sort of thing I would expect from a blog or a hate-based website, not from a family-friendly and '''trustworthy''' encyclopedia. This sort of thing is making Conservapedia look ridiculous. Or would you like articles on [[Doctor values]], [[Taxi-driver values]] and [[Lawyer values]] as well? If so, I'd be happy to draft them for you! There must be lots to be said about the misdemeanors of all sorts of groups. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:15, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

: I agree that this kind of article could bring legitimate criticism against CP. The major premises are not documented. While some contributers to this article, including those who have made those assertions, say that it is a work in progress and welcome others to document the supposed many examples, there are a pitiful few, some old, some from other countries, and some for extremely prevalent crimes of marijuana possession. I took a long time to find the best possible supporting source for educational stats, and my guess is that the more than 1,200,000 professors currently working in colleges and universities are responsible for a disproportionately SMALL number of crimes. Until I find statistical support for that statement, I won't post it in the article.

: For a collaborative resource like this, I believe it is imperative that any contributor making an assertion, especially critical ones (as opposed to trivia, added dates, etc. -- which ideally should be supported, too), document them appropriately. If not, that sends a poor message to other contributors, editors, and sysops -- to say nothing of users, potential users, and CP critics. It is hardly the kind of example to provide for home-schooled kids learning about proper scholarship. I have looked and looked and find no reliable studies that support the argument that professors are more likely than anybody else to do bad things. Also, no evidence that liberal professors are worse than conservative ones. There are news and blog reports that repeat certain cases, but unless one does an exhaustive search, no conclusions can be drawn. If this article remains, then there should be additional coverage for politicians, clergy, other professions, etc. and they should include misdeeds by conservatives and liberals alike, according to the actual data. Leaving out crimes by conservatives does no one a service. I understand that this is a conservative encyclopedia, but some traits of it purportedly include truthfulness (I'd argue that it is dishonest to tell only partial truths), and to avoid misrepresentation and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:26, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Head's up - this isn't as simple as it may seem ==

As I was doing some admittedly "Google-esque" research, I did find that there are well over 4000 colleges and universities and probably many more than 1,250,000 current faculty. If we work backwards a generation or two, the number increases, of course, which makes it difficult to substantiate the claim that professors are disproportionately likely to commit crimes or other misdeeds, especially if all we cite are fewer than 20 examples of such misdeeds. Looking at campus statistics, many more campus crimes (by far) were committed by students, to say nothing about the many thousands of crimes committed by the general public. So I started doing some informal Google searches for crimes committed by different professions, using -- for lack of a more efficient search method -- "professor arrested," "faculty arrested," etc. along with other professional categories. Combining "faculty" or "professor" and "crime" didn't work well (too many useless hits).
The highest, in that combination alone, was "teacher" (over 190,000 hits), but "mayor" still had more hits (over 27,000) than "faculty" or "professor" (about 14,000). Unfortunately, hits for "pastor," "minister," and "priest," added up to an uncomfortably high number, over 100,000, but then again, if we don't know how many pastors, etc. are out there, we have no percentage to compare them with faculty or other groups. My methodology is rudimentary, but I didn't see any demographic or statistical reports that covered this topic. So, unless we can document this so-called high rate of crime among faculty, perhaps the article should remain mute on the number, relative to other professions. After seeing some statistics about the correlation between educational level and prison population, it also seems like the prison population is much more likely to have no or little education. There are very few PhDs in prisons. Likewise, after seeing these figures, I would guess that the more one is educated, the less likely one is to get felonies or misdemeanors.

So, my question is: do any other contributors to this article have any data at all on this? Is it only anecdotal? If facts can't be documented, then they don't belong in these articles. Especially if the article is questioning the integrity of professors, including their intellectual integrity (like the Korean scientist who established his reputation on cooked data - about which I can find documentation), this article's information should be sound. It is still full of undocumented assertions and sensationalism. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 8:01, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

== Tony Blair ==

Huh? How is this not relevant to the article? He has no doctorate, he has been appointed to teach at Yale and he is a liberal politician. --[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:19, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: That appears simply to be a guest lecture appointment.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:42, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
:: You mean just like Al Gore?--[[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:54, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
::: Since you don't seem to mind guest lecturers being added to this list, I will put Tony Blair back.

:::Maybe it was Blair's suppoort for the Iraq War that got him his lecturing position. [[User:Daphnea|Daphnea]] 19:46, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

== Really? ==

I just did a google search, and the first few pages of the 735 results don't have any signinifigance to subject at hand. So, here's my question: Did you just make this term up Andy? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:07, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

: There's a great deal of bias out there, DLerner. That's a reason why we're here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:10, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:: Yes, Andy. But the problem is, there's a great deal of bias here too. Are there any articles critical of conservatives on this site? Believe me conservatives aren't perfect. You didn't answer my question, where is the term "Professor values" from? I know there are a lot of stupid people/policies on colleges (just watch the Penn & Teller episode on [[censorship]]) but that isn't the point. Where is the term from? [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:16, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:::Why are you critical of a neologism which points out a legitimate area of concern, DLerner? Examine the case studies, and perhaps you will appreciate why this article is a necessary one. [[User:Koba|Koba]] 12:34, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

::::Koba, the problem with making up a phrase like this is that it's really not meaningful, unless backed up by statistically valid evidence to justify it. Do Charlton Heston and John Wayne fit the profile of "Hollywood Values" as defined here? The examples mentioned in this article are as representative of professors as a category (i.e. a few out of thousands around the world), as they are of males. If this is the encyclopedic standard CP holds to, then I can create a page called "Right-handed values", describing the bad traits of right-handed people and backed by examples of the criminal behavior of some cherry-picked right-handed people, and it would pass muster based on examples like this page that ASchafly endorses.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

''The phrase Professor values refers to the lack of morals and values in the culture of college faculties, which is characterized by atheism, censorship, socialism, unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge, advocacy of liberal beliefs, liberal grading, liberal bias, anti-patriotism, plagiarism, false claims of credentials, lack of productivity, and promotion of sexual immorality.''

Has anyone else seen this "phrase" before? I looked for it. If it's a study, it belongs in an essay not in a article. Personally, I think Andy made it up. (It's a nice slogan though...)

If anyone can make up a term then write an article about it, how's this? "The phrase '''Criminal values''' refers to the lack of respect for the law..." [[User:DLerner|DLerner]] 12:59, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

:Indeed - see my comment under "What is this about?", above - which nobody has seen fit to reply to. The proliferation of these flimsy articles is making a mockery of Conservapedia. The latest such nonsense is [[Liberal drivel]], which I assume is a parody - but it's getting harder and harder to distinguish parody from real content. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 13:17, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

== Um... ==
This article serves no purpose... It should be an essay or opinion at the very most --[[User:Helps|Helps]] 11:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

What '''statistical''' evidence is there in this article of atheism, plagiarism, socialism
, censorship etc. This article makes unfounded claims. [[User:Angband|Angband]] 13:18, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: Help find the support for those observations. It's not difficult to find. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:: That is the wrong way to answer a legitimate question, and does a disservice to the students you want using Conservapedia as a legitimate reference source. When a so-called encyclopedic article makes irrational assertions and offers no cited evidence to support them, people are going to question its validity. Your response, "The supporting evidence is out there, help us to find it.", is basically an endorsement of unacademic postings by biased individuals as long as the bias is conservative, and an insult to the moderates who want a Conservative Encyclopedia to be, well, encyclopedic. My suggestion is that if it's not that hard to find the supporting evidence, then the page should be removed until the author can find it him/herself and post it. I'm sure I'll be accused of "Liberal Denial" or "Liberal Apology", or some other "Liberal ---" behavior that's used in place of an academic response, but fair-minded people need to speak up about this.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 17:31, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:I've never been to College in my long life but I must agree. This article is sensationalist tabloidism at its very best. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:49, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

== First paragraph of article is not adequately supported ==

I do think the listing of the growing problem of professors misdeeds section in the latter part of the article was very informative.

However, I don't think the footnote in the first paragraph adequately supports the first paragraphs contentions. Is plagiarism truly a professor value? If it is, there is absolutely no support for the contention. I don't think that plagiarism is a common value of professor although there may be certainly instances of it. I have read the scientific fraud in the way of fudging experimental results is a significant problem but I have not heard the same regarding plagiarism. I do know that puffing up ones resume is a significant problem in the USA, however, the contention that professors often do it was not supported.

In short, I think the initial paragraph does not follow the conservapedia commandments in regards to proper citation and support. I don't think it is reasonable to ask the reader to do the research for that is getting the cart before the horse. It is the writers job to support the material.

I do recommend the following conservative website in order to help provide adequate support for the article: Accuracy in Academia at http://www.academia.org/

In the meantime, I suggest the article to be pulled from the popular articles at Conservapedia until adequate support is given and that the article have a citation template put on it. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:16, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

: This is a work-in-progress with 24 references already. There have been numerous instances of plagiarism by professors without any punishment, and those citations will be easy to fill in, and I welcome assistance. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:57, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::It does appear as if liberals are over represented in academia with 90% of professors describing themselves as being liberals or moderates. [http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=s1153nnhjkhr407r6ng6gjg8pvc8g2s8] Therefore, there does appear to be less conservatives in academia. So one would expect there to be more atheist in academia. At the same time , atheism is not a professor value as about 25% of philosophy professors are theist. [http://www.rzim.org/slice/slicetran.php?sliceid=880] In the business and engineering departments the percentage of professors being theist is probably higher given that they are more conservative. In regards to plagiarism being a professor value, many instances of professors committing this act does not necessarily constitute it being a professor value. There are a lot of professors in the USA and abroad so the real question what percentage of professors have engaged in plagiarism. In other words, you can can find many instances of men beating their wives in the United States but is wife beating a "male value"? I don't think it is. Again, it comes down to the percentage issue. So to sum up, I think the opening paragraph needs to be less expansive in its claims or provide additional support. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:47, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:Even if 25% of philosophy professors were theists, wouldn't this still be lower than the rate of theism in the population as a whole? I do agree with your post in that it should be examined by specific departments. At least at my school, some departments, such as Economics and Geography, do not seem particularly liberal, while a number of others clearly are. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 18:03, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
:::DanH, thank you for your polite and kind reply. I do think that liberal ideology and liberals are over represented in academia. However, to call something a "professor value" or "male value" while a significant portion of the population in question does not share a particular value would be over reaching in my estimation. And I do think, for example, that 25% of a given population not sharing a value would be a significant amount of people and be justification for saying a given characteristic was not a value of the population as a whole. However, you can fairly say that a certain value is over represented in a population as a whole if in fact it is. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:14, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

:::: Good cites, Conservative. I've added them. This entry is ranked #1 on Google and is emerging as a significant insight. Professors share a common value system, not unanimously, but in higher percentages of agreement than even some churches. It's enlightening to described the [[professor value]]s and note the harm caused by them. Ideas obviously do have consequences.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:38, 24 March 2008 (EDT)
::::: I have a feeling that the majority of the professors at Liberty University might take exception to this article, since by definition these descriptors apply to them. Also, being ranked #1 in this case has more to do with the topic not being recognized as a commonly-used term. If I wrote an article titled "Liberal Klingon Values" it would rank #1 for that search in no time, without being any more relevant.--[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 12:29, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

What constitutes "a relatively high" number of instances of crimes or other misdeeds? Compared to other professions? If so, then we'd need to document those comparisons. If there are over 1,200,000 professors currently active in the US alone, then the total cited cases here is an extremely small 0.00125% of that population, about 1.25 evildoers per 100,000 faculty -- and some cited were from former generations or from other countries. Given stats from the National Center for Educational Statistics, the total population of professors would easily be in the multiple millions (depending how far back we'd want to go), making the percentage of the population amazingly miniscule. Some of the crimes or other behavior in the list refers to things that the general public is probably even more likely to do, including stalking family, drug possession, etc. -- in other words, not things that are unique to professors at all. I'd say the % of pastors and other religious leaders who have gotten themselves into hot water is embarrassingly high (sexual immorality, misuse of church funds, etc.) and perhaps higher than that of the professoriate. Maybe comparing the professors to the general population would show that professors are more or less likely than the general population to commit crimes. Also, to be fair and honest according to the Commandments, this article should report the academic/moral/financial misdeeds -- some very high profile -- of conservative academics, including events at several Christian colleges and universities, indluding former faculty and university presidents. Making unfounded statements in an encyclopedia article, especially if the statements are inflammatory, is antithetical to the whole idea of honest scholarship -- which is ironic, considering the topic of this article! [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:25, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

== Title of the article should be "liberals and academia" and not "professor values" ==

I do believe upon sound research that people are not going to find this article based on a search of "professor values".

Here are the Google results of "professor values" and you will notice that all 715 results have nothing to do with the article we have: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Professor+Values%22&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

On the other hand if you do a search on "liberals in academia" you will get 8,450 results and all are related to our article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22liberals+in+academia%22&btnG=Search

While I do think it is great to have a #1 Google entry in terms of getting exposure to Conservapedia I do think you have to begin with the end in mind and bring people to Conservapedia who are interested in a particular issue. I do realize that it is sometimes beneficial to pursue long tail marketing and dominate less competitive search queries over a long period of time, however, it does not appear as if anyone is typing in "professor values" to find the subject material of our article. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:33, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

I hesitate to point this out again (I mentioned it above), but what of crimes and other misdeeds committed by conservative academics? A number of leaders of Christian colleges and universities have, for example, abused authority, horribly misused funds for private -- and sometimes extravagant -- entertainment, travel, or shopping, or have had immoral sexual affairs. Not including information about these instances, or even acknowleding their existence, is a serious and dishonest error of omission. [[User:CPlantin|CPlantin]] 09:28, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

==Professor Values on Wikipedia==

Seems the article was put up on Wikipedia and is now up for deletion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Values

This thing really doesn't belong on an encyclopedia. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 07:18, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Not on wikipedia, maybe (not least, because it was ''plagiarized'' from here!) - but it seems perfectly at home in this encyclopedia. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 12:21, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: I bet you think [[Hollywood values]] should be censored also!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:12, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::: Actually, yeah, that's a dumb article too. --[[User:DJBlair|DJBlair]] 14:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:Yes, I think any article that is just 'made up' is neither trustworthy or encyclopedic. I wouldn't let my kids near this site (or Wikipedia for that matter, but thats a story for another day) [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:20, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

::In a strange bout of irony the WP ''Professor Values'' article now ranks higher than the CP version. [[User:TheGySom|TheGySom]] 08:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::: It didn't take long for the [[liberals]] on Wikipedia to delete its entry! It's gone.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

==Catholic schools==

Should abuse by priests in catholic schools deserve its own article entitles, [[Priest Values]]? Of course not, because the abuse committed by some priests is not indicative of the entire group. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 20:42, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
:You're making a big mistake, you think this "encyclopedia"  is governed by logic and reason, it isn't. -- '''[[user:DLerner|D L e r n e r]]''' [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DLerner Articulate] 20:48, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

:: DLerner was blocked for his repeated derogatory comments, and "LeaningRight" you should be blocked for your 90/10 [[rule]] violation against talk, talk, talk.

:: This [[professor values]] lists the commonly held values and consequences of those values. Your suggestion does not fit that model, and your suggestion is ludicrous.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:17, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Whatever. By the way, check my contributions, specifically to the India article. I have not broken any rules that I know of. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:31, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
:This is a link to my mainspace contributions: http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?offset=&limit=50&target=LeaningRight&title=Special%3AContributions&namespace=0 [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 13:33, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: LeaningRight, you wrote, "I have not broken any rules that I know of." That is known as [[deliberate ignorance]], and it's not an excuse. Your last ten contributions have been all talk, and that violates the 90/10 [[rule]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:32, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Please have a little respect and don't talk to me like a child. I'm a middle aged man with children and I find that highly disrespectful. Have a glance at my contributions. I wasn't even aware of this 90/10 rule until you brought it up so its ignorance, but not 'deliberate'. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 15:26, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:: You responded to my citation to our very simple set of [[rules]] with "Whatever" and "I have not broken any rules that I know of." Your response was ''after'' I directed you to the very simple set of rules.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:10, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

:Go and meet someone who doesn't agree with what you believe. I can guarantee you it will be quite refreshing. I'm taking a week off before I lose any faith I have ever had in the American people. [[User:LeaningRight|LeaningRight]] 16:15, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

::You really ought to watch how you talk to good editors, Andy. Your attitude isn't helping Conservapedia one bit. [[User:ShaggerNorris|ShaggerNorris]] 18:30, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

Andy, if you hope to gain the respect of the mainstream, and avoid being an object of ridicule at RW and everywhere else, provide a solid case instead of anecdotes [[User:Innsmouth1|Innsmouth1]] 19:09, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
: What's RW? [[User:Alberti|Alberti]] 10:19, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

== Removal of bias ==
The bias that was removed should have been kept in. It was a fair point and was correct.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 17:55, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:But it wasn't conservative. This isn't liberalpedia. Why is that so hard for you to understand? --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 17:59, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Are you kidding? A fact is a fact. A fair and correct point is not aligned with politcal leanings. Why is that so hard to understand?
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:01, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What specifically do you think was fair? The stuff I removed was unjustified liberal bias.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

"However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeed"
Its not bias, it is fact. It is not valid that professors are more likely to commit crimes (at least the validity has not been proven here) and by removing this section it sounds more and more like opinion as opposed to an encyclopedia entry. I know you wont budge on this though and any attempt in me to argue or revert will be meet with an arbitary block so I'll turn my attention to less volitile entries.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, something is not a fact just because it is written down somewhere. Liberal journalists that quote liberal studies that are furnished by liberal organizations do not produce fact - they produce nonsense. Please keep your gibberish out of this site. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable talking about your "facts" over at [[Wikipedia]]. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:12, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ, people sharing common values do tend to act in similar ways. Ideas do matter. Surely you don't think all the problems in Hollywood are purely coincidental with [[Hollywood values]]!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

My quibble was not whether ideas or shared values matter, it was that factual and relevant material was removed as bias.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:45, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

:Aden, your "facts" were discussed already. We know you can read, so quit playing stupid. --[[User:FrankRingo|FrankRingo]] 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Frank.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 18:52, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: AdenJ, people who disrespect the law are more likely to commit crimes. That's logic, and does not require a citation. [[Professor values]] include a disrespect for rule of law, among other things.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:02, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, and for the last time before I slam my head on the table, I was querying why good stats were removed from this article which show that crime amoung professors is not disproportionate. Apparently its not factual, according to you and Frank. End of discussion.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 20:08, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

: What statistics are you describing? Merely an estimate of the total number of professors? That doesn't demonstrate anything about proportionate crime.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:14, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
:: The stats I cited, which were removed by you, were from a standard statistical source (see the original citation) and the very high number of professors that exist make the isolated examples provided in the article statistically insignificant. It would be interesting to compare relative crime rates for various professions -- then we'd be able to say that professors are more likely or less likely to commit crimes. I spent a lot of time tracking down those stats and was surprised that you removed them because of "liberal" bias. As my contributions to this Talk page show, I felt uncomfortable seeing ungrounded assertions about professors being disproportionately likely to commit crimes. The few examples are incidental and anecdotal -- they are not statistically significant and one cannot use them to justify the conclusion that professors are more likely to commit crimes than others. Plenty of crimes are committed by teachers, pastors, politicians, business people, and so on -- but no evidence has been supplied to show that they commit crimes less often than professors. I believe my statement was taken away not because it is inherently liberal -- it is attitude neutral -- but rather because the data seriously challenged the validity of the premise of the whole article. After a lot of reading on this in support of my since-removed contributions, I would imagine that, taken as a group, professors are much less likely to commit crimes than many other professions. To prove that, I'd have to do more research and document it well, which I don't have the time to do. The same should be done if one wanted to document that they are MORE likely to commit crimes, but for now those assertions in the article remain unsupported except by isolated examples. That is a very bad example to set for any students, home-schooled or not. My contributions attempted to raise the research standard of the article and I believe the data I supplied were inappropriately removed. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 20:48, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

: I looked for, but could not find, the edit you're describing above. But note that the frequency of crime is not the only issue; the nature of the crimes also matters. Also, it's meaningless to compare wealthy, pampered, highly educated professors to the general population in terms of crime. Any comparison would have to factor in demographic, privilege, and background info.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:: If it is, as you say, "meaningless to compare wealthy... professors to the general population in terms of crime," then we should remove the entire block of "Crimes by Professors." The number cited is incredibly small, compared with the total number of professors out there, and unless you are positing that they commit crimes with disproportionate frequency (which the article seems to be implying), then it really doesn't have a purpose. We might as well start sections with anecdotal evidence about crimes for several professions. Actually, crime would be the easiest of the categories mentioned in the article to prove. Bullying, etc. may well take place, and some professors are true jerks, but there is not official documentation about instances of promoting immorality, bias against conservatives in classrooms, etc. Anyway, the problem I see with this article is that readers may notice that there is no support of the major assertions except for a handful of examples, some from other countries, one more than 25 years old, and one about a professor being fined $50 for mooning a child. I would suggest that we find documentation to support this article's assertions, call the article an editorial, or delete it entirely. If we look at the nature of the crimes, as you suggest, there are some murders, but also marijuana possession, mooning, attempting to defraud a hospital trust, stalking, possession of child porn, and others -- but not even close to what happens in one major city in one day. Attempting to smear an entire profession based on these examples and no real data is not scholarship. Conservapedia can do better and it should, if it is to be taken seriously. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 1:48, 22 April 2008 (CDT).

::: You didn't respond to my points. The nature of the crimes is as important as their volume, perhaps more so. And, no, we're not going to limit ourselves here to what is recognized by [[liberal]] newspapers and censored journals. Conservapedia reaches beyond what is already widely available, and we're not going to fall for the [[deliberate ignorance]] that plagues less useful resources.

::: Finally, your statement that "some professors are true jerks" obviously misses the point. The problem is not the "jerks", but the "values".--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:56, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

:::: I thought I'd addressed the main points you'd asked about, but I'll try again. Frequency of crime is indeed an issue if this article is trying to assert that professors commit crimes proportionally more than those in other specific professions, other professions in general, the general public -- you name it. To prove that they commit more crimes than other groups based on the tiny number of examples is ridiculous. Yes, frequency is not the only issue and the nature of the crimes also matters. But as my comment above shows, the crimes cited in the article, as bad as they are, are not all as bad as, say, murder. Besides murder, there is pot possession, the mooning of a child, stalking, possession of child porn, attempting to defraud a hospital trust. So, to the extent that all crime is bad, then all of those are bad things and I trust that the perps got their just desserts. But are those crimes any more heinous than those committed by any number of people of all kinds of professions, by the rich, by the poor, by politicians, etc. If we do factor in "demographic... and other background info," how would the picture look? Well, we don't really know, do we, because we know of no such studies, if there are any out there. So until we have some kind of actual data to go on, this article should remain silent on the issue (or not exist) or else it will look to readers more like an editorial rather than an encyclopedia article based on factual sources. You'd also asked about the source for my stats. I searched for a long time to find good, reliable numbers regarding professors and other employees in colleges and universities in the United States. Here is the quote you removed, along with the citation:
::::: "However, because the professoriate is so large and varied (more than 1,200,000 in the United States alone, in public and private institutions) it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than others groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds.<ref>National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06" [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list]</ref>"
:::: Looking at it again, I should have been clearer by adding something to the effect that "because the professoriate is so large, it would not be valid to conclude that this group of professionals is disproportionately more likely than other groups or the general public to commit crimes or other misdeeds based on a small sample of reported crimes unless the group and its crime rates are compared with those of other professionals or the general public." I also should have place the stats citation right after I mentioned the number of professors. The source supports that information and not the rest of the sentence. While I could have been clearer, the statement should not have been removed because you were "cleaning out liberal bias." What is liberal about that statement? I was trying to make the article more substantial and accurate. There are clearly claims in the article that are unsupported and therefore in violation of the Conservapedia Commandments, and I was doing research to find accurate data about the population under discussion. It was only a start and I was enjoying the research, but having my contribution yanked was like getting an unwarranted suckerpunch. In a sense, you did what you accuse professors of doing: you bullied someone you thought had an opposing point of view. Trying to verify facts and add documentation is neither liberal nor conservative - it is research. [[User:CPlantin|Cplantin] 22:51:48, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

== [[Debate:Are Liberals fundamentally evil?|Liberal]] professor [[PZ Myers]] just linked to this article ==

[http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/a_temporary_palliative.php Here]. Be on the watch for vandals. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 13:20, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

== this article is ridiculous ==

it's kind of funny actually [[User:NRupert|NRupert]] 13:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Liberal fluff ==

The statement that "it appears that intelligent people sometimes hold these values" is [[liberal fluff]]. It's meaningless. Intelligent people "sometimes" hold almost any value, no matter how wanton or absurd.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:57, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

==Recent edit==
As much as I dislike this entire article, I restrained myself and only removed a section lacking a citation. The citations are generally well groomed in this article, so let's keep up the same standards on the whole thing. IMHO, this is and should remain a highly opinionated essay ONLY, though, not an article. What will the liberals say to us next if they see this? I'm an ashamed conservative to have to read this.[[User:Bender2982|Bender2982]] 18:13, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

: Invoking "shame" is trademark [[liberal style]], Bender. I doubt you're fooling anyone here by claiming you're a conservative. By the way, I added a reference for the material you removed, a reference that took me less than one minute to find. You could have done likewise. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:16, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

:: Actually, you added only One reference to One of the points. But in doing so you went from saying, "Some" boards "have been known to", to the more unequivocal, "Faculty boards block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:" Unless you are going to once again provide the word, "Some", as a moderate you are going to need to provide more than one reference to make a blanket and unqualified statement. Oh, and the reference you used said that they took his position into consideration for their decision. A far cry from stating that faculty boards block the granting, etc. as if it was a written policy. A phrase more in line with your example would be, "Some faculty boards have used the following criteria in blocking the granting of a tenured professorship..." --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 18:24, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

== Blatant factual error ==

In the article, Alexander Downer is quoted as being a 'liberal' politician who received an academic position. Unfortunately, despite being a previously prominent member of the Liberal Party of Australia, in Australia this means something quite different. Alexander Downer was one of the most conservative politicians in Australia in the last decade. As a matter of personal opinion, I'd say he'd be the 5th-most conservative mainstream politican in Australia.

: What are his positions on abortion, gay rights and gun control? The way you phrase your comment, I'd guess he is a [[liberal]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:32, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

== Doctor values? ==

Please could someone explain in what way the long list of crimes committed by people who happen to be professors has any connection at all to the values of the huge majority of professors who are decent people?

If you want to be consistent, why not start a page called Doctor Values, headed by Harold Shipman. [[User:HSpalding|HSpalding]] 19:49, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Professor values

2008-11-17T00:45:42Z

HSpalding: Deleted Downer from the list. He's not a liberal. (The Liberal Party in Australia is politically conservative.)

'''Professor values''' refer to the common value system embraced by a large percentage of [[professor]]s, just as [[Hollywood values]] refers to the common value system of many in [[Hollywood]] and the entertainment industry.

An extremely high percentage of professors disagree with [[conservative]] principles.<ref>"90 percent of United States professors called themselves liberal or moderate .[http://www.bepress.com/forum/vol3/iss1/art2/]</ref> Professors' common value system typically includes [[atheism]], [[censorship]], [[socialism]], unjustified claims of expertise and knowledge (for example, the dogmatic promotion of the [[Theory of Evolution|theory of evolution]],<ref>For example, a $100,000 "environmental" prize was awarded for work on a [[politically correct]] "theory of convergent evolution." [http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/4/4/briefBiologyProfAwardedEnvironmentalAchievementPrize]</ref> [[liberаl]] beliefs, [[liberal grading]], [[liberal bias]],<ref>http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2005/08/26/johnson</ref> anti-patriotism, lack of productivity, [[bullying]] or discouraging [[conservative]] students (for example, homeschoolers),<ref>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/21/AR2008032101451.html</ref><ref>http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/488/NCliberalbiasagnstcons060104.htm</ref> and promotion of sexual immorality.<ref>http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/2001/oct_2001_4.html</ref><ref>http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/1998/october_1998_1.html</ref>
In a Zogby poll, 58% of [[Americans]] said that the bias of professors is a serious problem, while 39% said it is a "very serious" problem.<ref name="zogby">http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1334</ref> The survey demonstrated further that "an overwhelming majority also believe that job security for college professors leaves them less motivated to do a good job than those professors who do not enjoy a tenured status - 65% said they believe non-tenured professors are more motivated to do a good job in the classroom."<ref name="zogby" /> One study in 2008 found that "[[Texas]] university professors overwhelmingly favor
[[Democratic]] candidates in their campaign contributions."<ref>http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5753471.html</ref>

Professors sometimes engage in wrongdoing while completing research. "About 1,000 potential incidents of fabrication, falsification or plagiarism in scientific research go unreported every year, according to a survey that suggests such misconduct is far more prevalent than suspected. ... 22 percent was by a professor or senior scientist."<ref>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aYFanemP24yM&refer=home</ref>

Faculty boards have been known to (on multiple occasions) block the granting of a tenured professorship to candidates for tenure who:

* criticize the [[theory of evolution]]<ref>"As reported last week, two members of the department that denied tenure to astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State University (ISU) have publicly admitted that Gonzalez's work on intelligent design played a role in his denial of tenure." [http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/iowa_state_avoids_key_question.html]</ref>
* criticize [[feminism]]
* criticize [[abortion]]
* oppose the [[homosexual agenda]]
* criticize the [[liberal bias]] in [[academia]] itself

For example, professors at [[Washington University]] wore white armbands to protest an award of an honorary degree to [[Phyllis Schlafly]], a noted [[conservative]], in an act of political partisanship and utter unprofessionality.<ref>http://publicbroadcasting.net/kwmu/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1279565&sectionID=1</ref> At the [[University of Chicago]], more than one hundred professors signed a letter to protest a proposal to honor [[conservative]]-leaning [[Nobel Prize]]-winning colleague [[Milton Friedman]].<ref>http://bourdaghs.com/blog.html?p=484</ref>

Politicians, especially [[liberal]] ones, are routinely given high-ranking academic positions. Examples include:

* [[Al Gore]]<ref>Beginning early in 2001, "Gore will be [at UCLA] to develop a new curriculum for family-centered community building, a multidisciplinary approach that brings together authorities from such fields as education, business and public policy to work on problems that ail our society and affect our children. ... He also will be teaching at three other universities - Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro and Fisk University in Nashville - in addition to his teaching and research work at UCLA." [http://spotlight.ucla.edu/special-guests/al-gore_teach/]</ref>
*[[Michael Dukakis]]
*[[Gary Hart]]
*[[Bob Kerrey]]
*[[Tony Blair]]<ref>Blair was given a prestigious visiting lectureship.</ref>
*[[Tom Kean]]

==Crimes and Alleged Crimes by Professors==
* Sociology professor Hassan Diab arrested for his involvement in the 1980 bombing of a synagogue which killed four. <ref>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081113/diab_arrest_081113/20081113?hub=TopStories</ref>

* "A college professor accused of intercepting the e-mail of a student with whom he had an affair has pleaded not guilty to the charges. Stephan Grzeskowiak, 34, entered the plea .... A federal grand jury has indicted the former assistant professor of marketing ... on five counts of intercepting electronic communications and one count of computer fraud. He is accused of intercepting e-mails and instant messages on a computer used by the woman in May 2007."<ref>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-professor-hacking,0,2077856.story</ref>

* "Vanderbilt University professor James J. Lang was arrested Friday evening in Fairview on a charge of receipt of child pornography."<ref>http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080913/NEWS03/809130338/1017/news01</ref>

* Carnegie Mellon University computer science professor Jeffrey Hunker, 51, "was charged with drunken driving three times in eight days" in August 2008 and, as a result, prosecutors asked the judge to imprison him. He had worked in the Clinton Administration and was driving his new BMW when stopped for the third time.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,412801,00.html</ref>

* University of Iowa political science professor "Arthur H. Miller, 66, has been accused of demanding sexual favors from students in exchange for better grades .... He was arrested on four counts of bribery, a class C felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison ...."<ref>http://iowaindependent.com/3876/ui-mired-in-another-sex-scandal</ref> After being released without bail, Miller then disappeared and police wasted thousands of dollars looking for him.<ref>http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080822/NEWS/27671323/0/FRONTPAGE</ref> Later his body was found in a park. "He died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound."<ref>http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080826/NEWS/80826009/-1/LIFE04</ref>

* Arkansas Tech University chemistry professor Albert Snow, 33 years old, was sentenced to 10 years in jail "on a charge he stalked a person he believed was a teenage girl on the Internet." "Snow was arrested in January 2007 after showing up at a Russellville apartment complex where police say he expected to meet a 15-year-old girl."<ref>http://www.wreg.com/Global/story.asp?S=8803789</ref>

* At Northern Kentucky University, language and literature professor Sally Jacobsen incited some of her students to vandalize a pro-life display by Northern Right to Life, the campus pro-life group. Jacobsen herself also participated in the vandalism, which involved destroying rows of white crosses symbolizing the graves of aborted children. Jacobsen justified the vandalism as free speech, stating, "I did, outside of class during the break, invite students to express their freedom-of-speech rights to destroy the display if they wished to." Jacobsen was unrepentant until given the choice of facing criminal charges of theft, criminal mischief and criminal solicitation or apologizing. Jacobsen chose the latter and also paid Northern Right to Life for damage to the display. Jacobsen was suspended by the university and subsequently retired.<ref>http://www.lifenews.com/state3207.html</ref>

* College of New Jersey adjunct professor of engineering Bruce R. McKenna, 43, "surrendered to authorities after allegedly having sexually explicit conversations with an undercover officer posing as a teenage girl." He was "charged with six counts of attempting to endanger the welfare of a child, six counts of attempted sexual contact, sexual assault and attempted luring. ... Before McKenna was arrested, the situation escalated to the point where the professor was allegedly trying to meet with a 13-year-old girl."[http://www.nj.com/news/gloucester/local/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1218698712309020.xml&coll=8]

* "A [[South Korea]]n court Monday sentenced a former university art professor to 18 months in jail for forging her [[US]] degree certificates, officials said. The Seoul District Criminal Court found Shin Jeong-Ah guilty of forging undergraduate and master's degrees from the [[University of Kansas]] and [[Yale University]] to secure a job at Seoul's Dongguk university."<ref>http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jCfPQ1_mqM2VaXzQUSy-mXwQIvXQ</ref>

* [[Villanova University]] professor Edward R. Ritter was arrested on March 21, 2008, and charged with selling marijuana to undercover police officers, and a subsequent search of his home uncovered 19 bags of marijuana.<ref>http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20080322_Villanova_professor_arrested_on_drug_charges.html</ref>

* Kansas State University English professor Thomas Murray was a popular teacher, but he was convicted of murdering his ex-wife with 17 stab wounds and blunt trauma to her head. She "was found dead in her bedroom atop a dresser."<ref name="ctv">http://www.courttv.com/trials/murray/backgrounder_ctv.html</ref> Professor Murray had written several books, including "The Language of Sadomasochism."<ref name="ctv" /> He did not testify in his defense and spoke only at sentencing, where he called the state's case a "fairy tale."<ref>http://www.kansaspublicradio.org/newsstory.php?itemID=5892</ref>

* Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine Anatomy associate professor Peter Alan Rogers, 59, was arrested on Apr. 21, 2008 on a charge of possession of child pornography on a school laptop computer.<ref>http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2008/04/24/professor_0425.html</ref>

* Shortly after the end of the school year and his contract, Marshall University Psychiatry associate professor John M. Adams burglarized and murdered Bobby Burns on July 2, 2003, and then kidnapped two women and forced them to drive him across the Ohio River.<ref>http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/07/29/loc_ohprofessor29.html</ref>

* University of South Florida professor Sami al-Arian pled guilty to "aiding a terrorist group" and was "sentenced to 57 months in prison."<ref name="nysun">http://www.nysun.com/article/72228</ref><ref>http://www.mysuncoast.com/Global/story.asp?S=7961089&nav=menu577_2_1</ref> He then "spent more than a year in civil contempt after refusing to appear before two grand juries investigating Islamic charities in Northern Virginia."<ref name="nysun" />

* Claremont McKenna College visiting professor Kerri Dunn was sentenced to a year in state prison after she was found guilty of staging a phony [[hate crime]], in which she "spray-painted her car with racist and anti-Semitic slurs and then reported a hate crime on campus."<ref>http://www.knbc.com/education/3998600/detail.html</ref>

* University of Hawaii professor Marc Fossorier was arrested and later convicted and sentenced to one year in jail for attempting a sex crime with a girl apparently only 15 years old.<ref>http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4582/40/</ref>

* A [[New Jersey]] Cumberland County College professor "was arrested on charges of harassment, trespassing and stalking."<ref>http://www.thedailyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/NEWS01/80305019/1002</ref>

* University of Central Florida political science professor Michael Shawn Reichert was arrested for having "a stash of more than 100 child pornography pictures on his work computer," "plus three pornographic movies."<ref>http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2007/07/ucf-professor-a.html</ref>

* [[University of Wisconsin]] adjunct professor Victor M. Zamudio-Taylor resigned after being charged with viewing child-pornography in a campus computer laboratory.<ref>http://badgerherald.com/news/2002/03/19/uwmilwaukee_professo.php</ref>

* Concordia University professor Valery Fabrikant shot and killed four other professors in 1992. <ref>http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/01/25/qc-valeryfabrikant0125.html</ref>

* A [[British]] university professor was jailed for ten months for plotting to defraud a hospital trust. <ref>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010626/ai_n14398964</ref>

* [[French]] [[Marxist]] [[structuralist]] [[philosopher]] Professor [[Louis Althusser]] (1918-1990) killed his wife in 1980 and was afterwards confined to a psychiatric hospital.

* Professor Daniel Storm, of the University of Washington, flushed 4 liters of the flammable solvent ethyl ether down the sink, rather than pay the safe disposal fees. Assistant U.S. Attorney Jim Oesterle said that his using an axe to open the containers was particularly dangerous because a spark could easily have ignited the ether. <ref>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003607035_uwprof08m0.html</ref>

* An Associate Professor at Youngstown State University was locked up and fined $50 after baring his buttocks in front of children at a county fair. <ref>http://www.thejambar.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=38283b71-1223-4e85-929f-ba0f932d5366</ref>

* Philosophy professor [[Abimael Guzman]] of the National University of San Cristobal de Huamanga in [[Peru]] founded the bloodthirsty [[Shining Path]] organization, one of the most violent terrorist groups of recent decades.

* A childcare lecturer at Athlone Institute of Technology, [[Ireland]], was convicted of sexual assault while on a trip to [[Amsterdam]]. Despite this, AIT let him keep his job - until the crime was exposed in the local media.<ref>http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/0415/ireland/mhojqlidcwid/</ref>

* A lecturer in sexual health at the University College of Medicine, [[Cardiff]], [[United Kingdom]] was fined £3,000 for child pornography offenses. <ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1497151.stm</ref>

* University of Tennessee Physics professor, J. Reece Roth has been found guilty of passing U.S. Air Force secrets to [[China]] and [[Iran]]. Jury concluded he was guilty on 18 counts of conspiracy, fraud and violating the Arms Export Control Act. <ref>[http://www.newsmax.com/us/professor_secrets/2008/09/03/127312.html Tenn. Professor Guilty of Passing Military Secrets] AP, September 3, 2008</ref>

==Immoral, Unethical, or Bizarre Behavior==
*A Texas Southern University professor is being investigated for allegedly plagiarizing his grant proposal [http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6085039.html]

*The President of the University of Texas-Pan American is under investigation after allegations that she [[Plagiarism|plagiarized]] her 1974 dissertation <ref>http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jigNGLtg9PtFNelXVdVdNFVfb48wD943SDH03</ref>.

* An [[Iowa]] community college [[president]] resigned after publication of a photo that appeared to show him pouring beer into a young woman's [[mouth]]. But the [[school]]'s board of trustees approved a [[severance package]] that officials said was [[value]]d at about $400,000 plus benefits.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,413101,00.html</ref>

* A Kansas university professor, Fort Hays State University debate coach William Shanahan, "is under fire after a video showing him mooning a room full of students and faculty during a heated debate found its way onto YouTube." He "is shown on the video in a profane, in-your-face argument with his counterpart from the University of Pittsburgh ...."[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403781,00.html Kansas Professor in Trouble for Mooning Incident]

*Emory University History Professor of History [[Michael Bellesiles]], a [[gun control]] advocate, wrote a book entitled ''Arming America, The Origins of a National Gun Culture'' (2000). Gary Wills gave it a glowing review in ''The New York Times'', but admitted later that "I was took. The book is a fraud."<ref>Jonah Goldberg, [http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_501644.html ''Reports of the 2nd Amendment's death have been greatly exaggerated ...''] Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Apr. 8, 2007.</ref> Bellesiles resigned from his position as Professor of History when an independent committee of scholars examined his work and concluded that "his scholarly integrity is seriously in question."<ref>http://hnn.us/articles/1069.html</ref>

*According to one columnist, 88 Duke professors -- more than 10 percent of the Duke professorial faculty - endorsed and published an advertisement hurtful to students who had been wrongly accused of rape during a lacrosse team party, which "helped create the lynch-mob atmosphere."<ref>http://www.nypost.com/seven/03232007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/duke__who_wont_pay_opedcolumnists_john_podhoretz.htm</ref>

* When student Rebecca Beach circulated an email at Warren Community College in New Jersey disclosing that decorated Iraq war hero Lt. Col. Scott Rutter would be visiting, English professor John Daly replied: "Real freedom will come when soldiers in Iraq turn their guns on their superiors."<ref>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47461</ref>

*Ward Churchill was fired from the University of Colorado for fabricating his research and for plagiarizing the work of others.

*Richard Lenski of Michigan State University was rude and demeaning when replying to a member of the public who asked about his research.

* When challenged to provide data, professors who support evolution evade the question [http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_talk:Lenski_dialog#Lead_author_won.27t_answer_simple.2C__basic_questions]

*Madonna Constantine, a Columbia University professor claimed she was the victim of racism in the fall of 2007 when a noose was found on her office door. Now she has been fired for plagiarizing the work of other professors and even her own students! [http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/25/plagiarism.professor/]

*Vulgar and viciously bigoted anti-religion (mainly Christianity) University of Minnesota Morris professor and blogger [[Paul Zachary Myers|PZ Myers]] recently raised the hackles of Catholics by stating his desire to desecrate a Holy Communion wafer (viewed by Catholics as the Body of Christ).<ref>http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1459</ref> The resultant outcry from Catholics resulted in the university removing all links to Myers' blog from their website.<ref>http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1460</ref>

*3,200 educators, most of them [[professors]], have signed a letter supporting unrepentant domestic [[terrorist]] and fellow professor [[William Ayers]]. They claim Ayers bombing of the [[Pentagon]] and other [[government]] buildings, his direct involvement in at least three [[deaths]], were just "[[history]]." Notable signers include Professor Rashid Khalidi (No. 5), known for his call to destroy Israel and former professor Ward Churchill (No. 814), claiming the 9/11 victims were Nazis. George Leef, director of research for the John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy, Raleigh, N.C., said, "History should be important to [[teachers]]." <ref>[http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/academics-sign-pro-ayers-petition/ More Than 3,000 Academics Sign Pro-Ayers Petition] Fox News, October 22, 2008</ref>

==References==
<references/>

==Sources==
* [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_178.asp?referrer=list National Center for Educational Statistics, "Table 178, Historical Summary of faculty, students, degrees, and finances in degree-granting institutions: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2005-06"]

==Links==
[http://liberal-education.com Liberal-education.com] A user created list of professors with liberal bias, highlighting examples of liberal bias in the classroom.

[[Category:Academics]]
[[Category:Liberals]]

Alex Salmond

2008-11-15T23:20:15Z

HSpalding: First Minister

'''Alex Salmond''' is the leader of the [[Scottish National Party]] which became the largest party in the [[Scottish Parliament]] in the election of May 2007. Born in [[Linlithgow]] in 1954, Salmond has an MA in Economics and History from [[St Andrews]] University, and worked in the civil service and for the Royal Bank of Scotland before being elected to the UK Parliament as SNP MP for [[Banff]] and [[Buchan]] in 1987. He first served as SNP leader between 1990 and 2000. In 2001 he stood down from the newly-created Scottish Parliament while remaining an MP in the UK Parliament. He was returned as party leader for a second time in 2004, and has been re-elected to the Scottish Parliament as MSP for [[Gordon]].

In 2007, he led the SNP to become the largest party in the Scottish Parliament. The SNP formed a minority government with Salmond as First Minister

{{DEFAULTSORT:Salmond, Alex}}
[[Category:Scottish People]]
[[Category:Political People]]

User talk:HSpalding

2008-11-15T21:20:59Z

HSpalding: Response to Aschlafly

User talk:HSpalding

2008-11-15T19:46:35Z

HSpalding: Reply to ASchlafly

World History Lecture Six

2008-11-15T01:20:46Z

HSpalding: /* Crusades */ Other side of the coin

[[World History Lecture One|1]]-[[World History Lecture Two|2]]-[[World History Lecture Three|3]]-[[World History Lecture Four|4]]-[[World History Lecture Five|5]]-[[World History Lecture Six|6]]-[[World History Lecture Seven|7]]-[[World History Lecture Eight|8]]-[[World History Lecture Nine|9]]-[[World History Lecture Ten|10]]-[[World History Lecture Eleven|11]]-[[World History Lecture Twelve|12]]-[[World History Lecture Thirteen|13]]-[[World History Lecture Fourteen|14]]

World History

Sixth Lecture – Middle Ages (the Second Millennium)

Instructor, Andy Schlafly

==Introduction to the Second Millennium (A.D. 1000s)==

The second millennium began in the 1000s with a century of turmoil as Christianity grew larger and Islam began to challenge it. Two key dates were 1054, when the schism or split occurred between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and 1055, when the Seljuk Turks captured Baghdad in present-day Iraq. Both events set the stage for a big battle between Christian and Moslem forces in Palestine.

In 1054, the Byzantine empire established its own church, known as the “Eastern Orthodox Church.” This church resulted from the schism in the Roman Catholic Church. The dispute began with a controversy over the popular use of icons and then spread to other issues such as whether priests could marry and whether divorce would be allowed.

The word “icon” comes from the Greek word “eikon” for “image”. The Eastern Orthodox Church embraced icons and rejected three-dimensional statutes. The Eastern Orthodox Church also allowed its priests to marry, and permitted divorce. The Roman Catholic Church took the opposite position on all three issues. Also, in an Orthodox wedding ceremony there is no exchange of vows between husband and wife. That is considered for them to decide privately.

These churches disagreed about the authority of the pope, which would cause a split between Catholics and Protestants centuries later, also led to disagreements between the Eastern Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church. To this day there have been many efforts to reunite these two churches, but they have been unsuccessful. Today Turkey is 99% Muslim, but the Eastern Orthodox Church remains the dominant church in Russia and many countries of eastern Europe and Asia.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and particularly its Saint Cyril were extremely influential in converting the Slavic regions of Eastern Europe (including Russia) to Christianity. Saint Cyril even established a new alphabet for the purpose of teaching the Slavs to read the Bible. His Cyrillic alphabet remains the basis of the alphabet for Russia and other Slavic countries.

After the schism, the Catholic Church strengthened its organizational structure in 1059 when it established the College of Cardinals to elect future popes, thereby ensuring a smooth transition from pope to pope that has continued to this day. At that time power in western Europe was centered in two places: Germany, where the Saxons ruled, and Rome, where the papacy presided. Their relationship was sometimes friendly, sometimes not-so-friendly. Smaller kingdoms in France and England existed also.

The biggest event in English history was the Battle of Hastings in 1066, when the Normans invaded and conquered the island and established the reign of William the Conqueror, which lasted until 1087. The Normans continued on to conquer most of Italy in 1084.

The most important pope of this time was Pope Gregory VII, who reigned from 1073 to 1085. He is known for ending the control of the western church by the secular (non-church) rulers, particularly by abolishing lay investiture, by which lay lords had control over the choice of bishops, abbots and other church officials. Pope Gregory excommunicated the German King Henry IV for insisting on installing bishops, and Henry IV even crossed the Alps in wintertime to seek forgiveness and absolution from the pope in the Canossa incident in 1077. Historians today view the incident as an example of humiliation of a king by a religious leader. Pope Gregory forgave him, but then Henry IV continued to demand control and even removal of Pope Gregory, ultimately causing him to flee Rome in 1084 to survive. Pope Gregory died a year later, while Henry IV lived on for another 20 years.

Christianity continued to grow in power based on the feudal system. The Christians defeated the Muslims in Spain in 1085 at the battle of Toledo, beginning the process of converting Spain back to Christianity after hundreds of years of Moslem rule.

Several strict Christian religious orders were established in the 1000s in Europe, including the Carthusian Order (1086) and the Cistercian Order (1098). There are monks today who continue to belong to these orders. Both orders require silence and vegetarianism, in addition to giving up all worldly possessions. The Carthusians lived like hermits; the Cistercians spread Christianity and western farming knowledge to Eastern Europe, hosting many retreats for citizens to attend and participate in a week or weekend of prayer and learning. At its peak, the Cistercians had over 700 monasteries. The first university in the world outside Muslim realms was established in 1088: the University of Bologna in Italy.

Capping the end of the 1000s was the capture by the Christians of Jerusalem. This was the greatest success of the Crusades, which we discuss next.

==Crusades==

The most famous military activity in the feudal period was the “Crusades”, a series of wars covering nearly 200 years, from A.D. 1096-1291. Only the First Crusade and, to a lesser extent, the Third Crusade were successful. But the First Crusade alone was immensely successful.

One of the main purposes of the Crusades was to make Jerusalem safe for Christian pilgrimages. Fed up with reports of the murdering of defenseless Christian pilgrims, in 1095 Pope Urban II called for feudal knights to retake the Holy Land from the Seljuk Turks. The Seljuk Turks seemed almost invincible as fighters, having conquered Asia Minor and even beating the once-mighty Byzantine Empire. The Seljuk Turks ruled from the 1000s to the 1200s, and did particularly well under its ruler Malik Shah, who died in 1092. But some Moslems were unhappy with being ruled by the Turks, and once Malik died dissension in the Islamic world grew.

The Byzantine emperor, Alexius Comnenus, had been repeatedly defeated by the Seljuk Turks and he asked the pope for help to defeat the Moslems. He promised a reunion of the Eastern Orthodox Church and to give Byzantine lands (“fiefs”) to victorious knights from the feudal west.

At the Council at Clermont in southern France, Pope Urban II gave one of the greatest speeches ever. Promising absolution and assurance of salvation to anyone who died in the crusade, he urged a huge crowd to protect Christian pilgrims from the Turks. He demanded that all internal feuds end and he threatened excommunication for anyone who continued to bicker internally. Those who decided to fight in the crusades were said to be “taking up the cross,” because they would wear a tunic with a large red cross on it.

At first Peter the Hermit answered the call of Pope Urban and led an unprepared group of peasants in the first mission, which failed. But news of its failure led to renewed determination by the Christians, and a well-equipped religious mission led by the Normans was formed. This became known as the First Crusade.

When the western forces reached Constantinople to join with Alexius’ soldiers, the western army was already overwhelming. It proceeded to capture Nicaea in 1097, and went onward to Jerusalem despite intense fighting and hardship.

In 1099, the First Crusade invaded and succeeded in capturing Jerusalem, and set up four feudal kingdoms that would remain for nearly 100 years. Critics claim that the Christian crusaders massacred the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the process. But it was a huge military victory and Jerusalem was finally made safe for the pilgrims.

A mixture of Christian spirituality and military adventure motivated the participants in the Crusades like never before in history and perhaps never since. Merchants participated also in the hope of establishing new trade connections. While historians emphasize abuses committed by soldiers, most of the crusaders were acting to advance the cause of Christianity and secure salvation for others and perhaps themselves. This was not necessarily true for all of the crusaders. Criminals who fought were pardoned, and a crusader was exempt from taxation from the time that he “took up the cross,” until he returned from the war. Still for the most part, this was a religious war.

A Second Crusade in 1147-49 was a failure. In 1187 the Muslims captured Jerusalem under their leader Saladin, and the Third Crusade (1189-92) had the limited success of obtaining a truce from Saladin that promised to allow Christian pilgrimage to Jerusalem. That Crusade was led by the leaders of France and the Holy Roman Empire and King Richard the Lion-Hearted of England. The first returned home after an argument on the way to Jerusalem, and the second drowned; only King Richard saw the mission through.

Two subsequent crusades were tragic. The Fourth Crusade (1202-04) never reached the Holy Land and ended with the crusaders’ sacking Constantinople—a Christian city—wounding it forever and embittering the East against the West. A Children’s Crusade (1212) consisted of peasants leading thousands of children on a mission of love to Jerusalem, but the children either drowned or were taken and sold into slavery. The later Crusades lost their religious motivation. Historians claim they were motivated by greed and ambition.

The Crusades remain a controversial issue, but all agree that the impact of the Crusades was enormous. Indeed, the Crusades were the biggest cause of the end of the Middle Ages in Western Europe. There are many reasons why:

(1) The Catholic Church gained more power due to the Crusades, and this led to the Reformation.

(2) The Crusades introduced Europeans to many new goods from the East, and this greatly increased trade. These new goods included cotton, citrus, sugar, oriental carpets, glassware, paper and gems.

(3) The Crusades introduced Europeans to gunpowder, one of the most significant inventions in the history of the world. Gunpowder influenced all future military conflicts.

(4) The Crusades contributed to the end of feudalism and gave power to kings, because the knights had to sell land to the kings to pay for the mission to Jerusalem. Many nobles lost their lives in the Crusades, further strengthening the relative power of the monarchs. Merchants favored the rise of kings, who could better promote and protect trade than feudal knights could.

(5) The increase in trade due to the Crusades led to an increased use in money rather than barter, and a new middle class (the “bourgeoisie”) developed.

(6) Italian city-states, such as Rome, grew in power based on providing supplies and ships for the crusaders trying to reach the Holy Land.

(7) Europeans were inspired by magnificent cities they saw in the East, such as Constantinople, along with achievements in business and artistic works.

(8) Historians argue that the Crusades improved the power of women who were left to manage property as the crusaders went off into battle.

Some Christians fully defend the Crusades, and proudly compare the United States’ invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq to a modern version of the Crusades.
But the description of the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as a Crusade is one reason why many Muslim object so strongly to the actions of the United States.

==The Mongols==

Asia and eastern Europe suffered the scourge of vicious fighters known as the Mongols. Japan was very fortunate in one key respect: it is an island enjoying the protections of water against invaders like the Mongols.

The Mongol tribe came from Mongolia, which is northwest of China in central Asia. They were skilled warriors and expert horsemen, capable of riding for days without any difficulty. They would pitch tents as needed and they would roam throughout Asia, destroying anything that stood in their way. They were known for their savagery and were poor administrators of the lands they conquered.

The founder of the Mongol empire was Chinggis (Genghis) Khan (1162-1227), who united the Mongol tribes. He dreamed of creating the biggest empire in world history, and he did exactly that. He built a massive and powerful army based on meritocracy (promotion based on merit rather than friendship or seniority).

Chinggis Khan led the Mongols from 1206 to 1227. Historians consider him to have been a military genius, and he conquered the largest contiguous empire in the history of the entire world.

In all of history, only the Mongols were able to invade Russia successfully in the wintertime. The Mongols conquered Russia in 1237, and ruled over it until 1480. This caused isolation of the Russians from Europe, thereby creating a distrust of Europeans (and Americans) that exists to this day. Russia suffered economically and intellectually from the Mongol rule, and its citizens were subjected to the status of peasants who could act only as serfs for their protectors among the Russian ruling class, who imposed taxes for the benefit of the Mongols. Prince Alexander Nevsky, based on his cooperation with the Mongols, became the first prince of Moscow and all of Russia. The tributes by the Russians to the Mongols did not end until Ivan III of Moscow refused to pay tribute in 1480. By then the Mongols were too weak to do anything about it.

In 1231, the Mongols invaded Persia and killed hundreds of thousands of people. In 1258, the Mongols defeated the Muslims in Baghdad, located in modern-day Iraq. The Mongols spared Christians in the city but killed the caliph Abbasid. Only later did the Mongols themselves convert to Islam.

The Mongols destroyed cities, irrigation systems, and anything else that they wanted to. They were greatly feared. They ruled so much land that they had to divide it into four regions: Russia, China, central Asia and Persia. The region of Russia is known as the Khanate of the Golden Horde.

Brutal in their military techniques, the Mongols added the Chinese warfare of gunpowder and the catapult to their fierce arsenal. They seemed unstoppable and, in addition to conquering much of Asia (including present-day Russia), they also ruled what is now Poland, eastern Germany and Hungary by 1242. They were finally beaten back by Egyptian Mamluks in a famous battle in Palestine, where for the first time another group was able to defeat the Mongols in tough hand-to-hand combat. The furthest the Mongols could reach into western Europe was the outskirts of Vienna.

The Mongols enjoyed continued success in China, where Kublai Khan founded the Yuan dynasty beginning in 1260, with its capital in present-day Beijing. He connected the Huang He River with Beijing by extending the Grand Canal. He promoted Buddhism and ended mandatory education in the teachings of Confucius. He allowed freedom of religion. He installed foreign administrators to manage the vast country.

But the Mongols could not conquer Japan. Twice they tried to cross the waters to reach Japan, in 1274 and 1281. Each time an intense wind that the Japanese call the “kamikaze” turned back the Mongols. It was not until World War II that a larger seaborne invasion of Japan was attempted. The Mongols were also unable to conquer Cambodia or Vietnam. The Mongols did control Korea from 1231 to 1350.

The Mongols retained control of the area known as “Eurasia”, which is the region where Europe and Asia meet. It consists of flat grassland that lacks almost any trees, also called “steppe”.

From the 1250s to 1350s, there was a period of “Mongol Peace” (Pax Mongolica) when traders were not harassed and some might say were even protected by the Mongols along the Silk Roads, which were the ancient and medieval trade routes linking the Mediterranean world to China.

Inflation (weakening of the money) destroyed the Mongol empire, just as it destroyed so many other empires and countries. The rulers kept printing more money and its value kept declining, until businessmen did not want to use it anymore. Persia obtained its independence from the Mongols in 1335, and China rebelled against the worthless money also, ridding themselves of the Mongols in 1369, when the Chinese established their own Ming Dynasty. But the Mongols remained a constant threat to China into the 1700s.

The collapse of the Mongol empire in Persia and eastern Europe enabled the Ottoman (Muslim) Turks to rise to power. They built their own empire then, which lasted until World War I and continues to influence Turkey to this day.

Today about 9 million people speak the Mongol language: 2.7 million in Mongolia; five million in Inner Mongolia; and one million in Russia. Some in Afghanistan and Turkey are descended from the Mongols.

==Nation-States in Europe==

After the Crusades, the kings and the Catholic Church had much more power and feudalism was weakened. This set the stage for a rise in power of the nation-states that continue to exist to this day. Viking invasions, which had contributed to the rise of feudalism, subsided. The Vikings settled down and converted to Christianity and the threat of foreign invasions was diminished. With new stability, trade began to flourish once again. The European population tripled between A.D. 1000 and 1300.

Towns began to grow, and merchants formed “guilds”, which were organizations to establish rules and fairness in trade. Guilds were led by men, but both men and women could be members of a guild. The practice of apprenticeship began during this time period, by which young men could receive training from a master craftsmen. A middle class arose, comprised of bankers, merchants and craftsman, and was known as “burgess” in England, “bourgeoisie” in France, and “burgher” in Germany. As prosperity grew, there was also a rise in banking and investment, and gold coins were used as currency. An agricultural revolution occurred, bringing improvements such as new plows, harnesses and farming methods. Feudalism continued to decrease as food surpluses occurred, population increased, and many serfs could now leave the manors.

An epidemic of the bubonic plague known as the Black Death struck Europe and many parts of Asia between 1347 and 1351. The plague was spread by rats and other rodents, and spread rapidly along trade routes and especially the Silk Road. It originated amongst the Mongols in Asia, who carelessly allowed their sacks of food to be exposed to rats and fleas that carried the fatal disease. Traders brought it with them into the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe. In four short years, 40 to 45% of the European population was lost to the plague, especially the poor. The Mongols amplified the problem by using catapults to toss plague-ridden bodies over city walls. The modern world is not the first to use biological warfare.

The fatality rate was even higher in China, where an estimated 25 million died from it. It took 100 years for Europe and China to recover, and a longer period of time for Islamic countries and the Middle East. Egypt was hit particularly hard, with some areas not recovering for 500 years.

The germ theory of disease had not been discovered, so nobody could figure out what was causing people to catch and die from the disease. How do you know if you have the disease? Here are the symptoms. Three to seven days after an infection, the person experiences initial symptoms of chills, fever, diarrhea, headaches, and the swelling of the infected lymph nodes. If it is untreated, 30-75% of those who contract the plague die.

The plague weakened the Catholic Church, which appeared helpless to stop it. After the plague began to subside in the 1350s, there were severe worker shortages and even rebellions as workers demanded higher pay. The devastation to the serf population weakened the force behind the success of the manors and contributed greatly to the end of feudalism. The plague also created a demand for more centralized government that could respond effectively to disease.

In England, the rise of a centralized government began with a series of Anglo-Saxon kings including Alfred the Great, Edward the Confessor and Harold. In 1066 William the Conqueror, a Norman duke, led an invasion of Britain against the Saxon King Harold. He successfully conquered the country and declared himself owner of all its land, granting fiefs to his Norman lords. The system of feudalism under William led to the rise of a centralized government, and the blend of the Norman and Saxon cultures would come to define the people of England. In 1166, William’s relative Henry II introduced trial by jury and took control of the court system in the “assize of Clarendon.” Royal judges traveled throughout the land, their decisions establishing an English common law, which has greatly influenced law in the United States. William was married to Eleanor of Aquitaine, a remarkable woman who had two husbands and two sons who were kings.

Henry’s successor was his son, Richard “The Lionheart,” who fought in the Third Crusade and Richard’s successor was his brother John “Lackland”. History and myth surrounding these two men has been immortalized in legendary figures such as Robin Hood and Ivanhoe. Under John’s rule, Philip II of France seized Normandy, and the nobles of England objected to John’s extreme taxation to fund a war. They revolted in June 1215, and forced John to sign the “Magna Charta” (or “Magna Carta”), a “great charter” that diminished the king’s power and gave increased rights to the nobles. It granted the rights to trial by jury and equal protection under the law, and prohibited taxation without representation. The English parliament was also established at this time; the burgesses and knights of the middle class (later known as the “House of Commons”) were now allowed to participate in the legislative process along with bishops and lords (“House of Lords”). These parliamentary bodies govern Britain to this day.

The rise of a unified nation-state in France began with a line of kings known as the “Capetians” (987-1328). Hugh Capet was the first of the Capetian kings. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, the Capetians had succeeded in bringing most of France under a centralized government. Philip II was a Capetian king who expanded France, seizing territories including Normandy from John of England, and establishing the official office of “bailiff”, with tax collecting and royal court duties. Louis IX “the Pious” established an appeals court, with authority surpassing that of the local courts. Under the Capetian kings, a French legislative body known as the “Estates General” was created, including the “Third Estate,” which allowed commoners to participate in lawmaking.

Germany did not succeed in establishing a nation-state, but attempts were made, beginning with Otto I “the Great.” Otto ruled from 936-973, allied himself with the pope and attempted to establish a “Holy Roman Empire.” His efforts did not succeed in uniting Germany as one nation, however. Likewise, in Italy, a unified nation failed to emerge. Instead the various city-states fought bitterly amongst eachother, which was to continue for centuries.

While nation-states were rising, and kings were gaining more and more authority, controversy arose over who held supreme authority: the pope or the king. “The Great Schism” (1378-1417) was an argument resulting in French cardinals electing an “antipope” (Clement VII) in order to dispute the authority of recently elected Pope Urban VI. This and other controversies set the stage for the Protestant Reformation.

The Hundred Years’ War, between England and France, lasted from 1337 to 1453. This war began when the last Capetian king died without leaving a successor, and English King Edward III seized the French throne. Joan of Arc, a girl who felt called by God to lead the French army, defeated the English at the siege at Orleans in 1430 at the age of seventeen, but was later captured by the English and burned at stake as a heretic in 1431.

==Church Philosophers and Architecture==

While nation-states were growing in Europe, so were universities. A rapidly-growing number of rich and poor students were instructed in universities in Paris, Oxford, Naples, Padua, Salerno and many others in theology, philosophy, law and medicine. During the 1100s and 1200s “scholasticism” flourished, which sought to combine logic of the classical philosophers with medieval Christian theology. The Scholastics were divided into two groups, the realists (preferring the works of Plato) and the nominalists (preferring Aristotle’s teachings).

Saint Anselm (1033-1109), born in northern Italy, was an early intellectual giant of scholasticism. The period from the late 1000s to about 1300 is known as the “High Middle Ages,” partly due to this intellectual activity known as scholasticism and also due to great population growth.

Scholasticism strengthened understanding of Christian doctrine through careful definition and systematic argument. Anselm preferred to defend Christianity through use of powerful logical arguments, rather than relying entirely and solely on scripture. Anselm is famous for the first “ontological” argument, which is an argument attempting to prove the existence of God by reasoning from the definition of God.

Anselm was a brilliant Latin scholar who became a Benedictine monk to the disappointment of his father, who wanted him to enter politics. After Anselm became a monk, he “proved” the existence of God as follows. Everyone, even a fool, can conceive of a variation in perfection of a being. In other words, some beings are more perfect than others with respect to justice, wisdom or power. Because there is a variation, there must be a being that is most perfect. But “existence” is an attribute of perfection: it is more perfect to exist than not to exist. Therefore the most perfect being must also exist. Therefore God, defined as the most perfect being conceivable, must exist.

Anselm also had a tremendous logical argument for why Christ must exist. In the feudalism of Anselm’s day, the severity of a crime and amount of satisfaction required of the offender varied depending on who the victim was. Someone who committed a crime against the king would require more satisfaction or payment by the criminal after he was caught than a similar crime against a peasant. Similar rules exist today, where a crime against the president is far more serious than a similar crime against an ordinary citizen. Anselm wrote a paper entitled “Cur Deus homo?” (“Why Did God Become Man?”), in which he explained that finite man could never satisfy a crime or sin against the infinite God. Only an infinite man (Christ) could provide full satisfaction because the victim of the crime or sin was the infinite God. Hence the existence of Christ is essential.

Anselm was appointed the archbishop of Canterbury, England, which he accepted reluctantly. He became determined to reform the English Church and he fought against efforts by the King of England to control or interfere with the Church. At one point Anselm presented his grievances against King William to Pope Urban II. These conflicts were precursors to a huge dispute between a pope and English king centuries later, which caused the king to form his own church and split from Roman authority.

The most famous Scholastic was Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), a Dominican monk who wrote Summa Theologica. Many consider this to be the most perfect and complete summary of Christian theology, and he established an entire type of Christian philosophy known as “Thomism”, which is followed to this day. Aquinas was somewhat controversial during his life, but was quickly revered by the Catholic Church after his death. He developed five new proofs for the existence of God using logic. The first three were “cosmological” proofs rather than the “ontological” approach of Anselm. A cosmological proof deals with the natural order of the universe. Aquinas’ most famous cosmological argument was that whatever is in motion (for example, us) must have been put in motion by something else (our parents). They, in turn, must have been put in motion by something else (their parents). But this sequence cannot go on to infinity. There must have been a first mover. This we call “God”.

Thomas Aquinas’ views on the nature of man included a unique interpretation of the Fall of Man; some would call it an incomplete one. He believed that while men had rebelled against God and the human will was fallen, the human intellect remained perfect. Therefore, human wisdom could be relied upon and given as much prominence as the teachings of the Bible. This idea justified mixing the works of the classical, secular philosophers into Christian theology. Also as a result, the authority of the church became as important, if not more so, than that of the Bible. These ideas set the stage for humanism, which was the predominant philosophy of the Renaissance.

Thomas Aquinas is further known for his famous observation that the devil cannot withstand mockery. Mockery can be useful in defeating a bad idea or temptation.

There were other prominent Scholastics, such as Peter Abelard (1079-1142), who used logic and questioning to discuss issues of religious controversy in his Sic et Non (“Yes and No”).
There was outstanding architecture in the Middle Ages, which can be seen in the majestic churches built during that era. There were two main styles: Romanesque and Gothic. Romanesque architecture is characterized by thick walls, rounded arches and small windows. The Gothic style, developed later, consisted of taller, perpendicular structures with long windows, pointed arches and “flying buttresses” (stone supports on the outer walls of churches). Gothic architecture, with its tall, pointed spires is said to reflect the desire of people of the Middle Ages to grow closer to God, reaching towards heaven and away from the earth. Tall windows allowed sunlight to illuminate the interior, unlike Romanesque architecture, in which windows were small and interiors were dim. A particularly stunning example of Gothic architecture is the Notre Dame in Paris, on which construction began in 1163 during the reign of Louis VII, and was completed about 200 years later in about 1345. The Notre Dame features a beautiful stained-glass “rose window,” another distinguishing characteristic of Gothic churches.

==The End of the Byzantine Empire and the Expansion of Islam==

The end of the Byzantine empire occurred when Mongols invaded in the 13th century, followed by the rise of the Ottoman (Muslim) Turks to power in the 14th century, who replaced the Byzantium empire with their own. The Ottoman empire then lasted over 600 years, from 1299 to 1923, when it was divided by the victors in World War I. At the height of its power in the 16th and 17th centuries, the Ottoman empire included Anatolia, the Middle East, portions of North Africa, and much of southeastern Europe.

While powerful nation-states were developing in Europe, absolutist empires were spreading throughout the East and Islam was growing rapidly. In present-day Turkey, in a region known as “Anatolia,” Muslim warriors called “ghazi” arose, seeking to conquer land belonging to infidels, or people of non-Islamic faith. A famous ghazi named Osmen Bey began the Ottoman empire. The strongest element of the Ottoman and other Asian empires of the time was their use of gunpowder, which gave rise to the term “gunpowder empires.” Under Ottoman rule, non-Muslims had to pay a tax to avoid military service, which was mandatory for Muslims. Slaves called “janissaries” were also used as warriors.

In 1453 Ottoman sultan Mehmed II captured Constantinople, and tore the cross off the top of the Hagia Sophia, and declared the Christian church a mosque. Selim the Grim and Suleiman I followed, expanding the Ottoman territories into an empire comprising Constantinople (now Istanbul), Syria, Palestine, Egypt, North Africa, Greece and even parts of Hungary and Austria. The height of the Ottoman empire existed during the reign of Suleiman I, which lasted from 1520 to 1566 AD. Suleiman was known by Europeans as “the Magnificent” because of the splendor of his reign, but has had the most prominence throughout history for his outstanding contribution as a lawgiver. His picture can be found in the United States Supreme Court alongside those of Moses, Thomas Jefferson and Solon. Called “people of the book”, Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their faiths under Ottoman rule.

In addition to the Ottoman empire were the Islamic empires of Safavid and Mughal. The Safavid dynasty, located in north-west Persia, was founded by a 14-year old “shah” (king) named Ismail who conquered the Seljuk Turks in North India. The Shi’ite Safavids fought with the Sunni Ottomans for 200 years. Safavid Shah Abbas the Great saw the peak of the Safavid Empire during his reign from 1588-1629, and established trade with Europe.

The beginnings of the Mughal Empire, located in India, were established by Babur around 1525 AD. Under the reign of Babur’s grandson Akbar (1556-1605), the Mughal Empire experienced its “Golden Age,” during which taxes were decreased. The languages spoken were Persian, Hindi (still spoken in India today), and Urdu (a new language combining Persian, Hindi, and Arabic characters; present-day Pakistan’s official language). Other religions were tolerated under Akbar’s rule, but not under Aurangzeb’s notoriously intolerant rule (from 1659-1707), during which Hindus were taxes and their temples torn down, causing discord in the Mughal Empire, including an uprising of the previously non-violent Hindi-Muslim Sikhs.

Contributions of these Islamic empires include the stunningly beautiful Taj Mahal, an enormous tomb built of pure white marble beginning in 1631 by Akbar’s grandson Shah Jahan for his beloved wife. Building of the Taj Mahal in India lasted 18 years, and 20,000 workers were used. Jahan was so overwhelmed with its beauty, and so cruel to its workers, that he had their hands cut off so they would never build another one like it! Jahan also constructed the “Red Fort,” a red-sandstone palace and the “Peacock Throne,” encrusted with thousands of gems. Many beautiful mosques and palaces were built in Constantinople under Ottoman rule, many designed by artist and architect Pasha Sinan. The most famous Ottoman form of art was the blue-and-white pottery of Iznik.

The Islamic empires participated in international trade (especially the Ottomans and Safavids), but not to the extent that the Europeans were trading. Technological advancements flourishing in Europe (such as the printing press) were not received well in dar-al Islam (lands under Islamic control). These factors, combined with prolonged periods of warfare eventually led to the downfall of the Islamic empires.

==Africa==

As we have already seen in this course, language played a central role in defining a society. This was also true in sub-Saharan Africa (south of the Saharan desert), where the Bantu language was shared by peoples in West Africa prior to 1000 B.C. Historians refer to the West Africans as “Bantu speakers” who lived along the rain forest on the edge of what is now Nigeria. The Bantu speakers began migrating to the east and south of Africa around 2000 B.C., and this migration was at its peak between about 700 and 500 B.C. By A.D. 1000, the migration had ceased and several Bantu kingdoms arose in southern Africa.

In eastern Africa, the Arabic language was influential. When the Bantu language collided with Arabic, the result was the Swahili for the peoples of east Africa.

There was no private property in these settlements, as property was shared among the community. Typically a family member served as the leader of each family or “kinship group” and there was no formal government.

Fruits, particularly bananas, initially imported from Southeast Asia by traders, were a major source of nutrition that helped increase the health and population. Malay sailors brought the banana over the Indian Ocean to an island known as Madagascar, where the people still speak a language similar to that spoken in Malaysia.

The primary African religion was “animism”, or a belief that spirits exist in nature similar what some American Indians believe. The religion was handed down from generation to generation not in writings, but in oral stories. The storytellers are called “griots”. There was a little bit of farming along the edges of the rain forests, but most of the activity was a “hunting-gathering” type. In central Africa there was some cattle raising.

By 700 B.C. the Bantu speakers in West Africa discovered iron smelting, and began using it to make tools and weapons. The distribution of knowledge of that invention followed the path of the spread of the Bantu language itself through central and southern Africa.

There was an active slave trade in Africa long before Americans began importing slaves in the early A.D. 1600s. Muslims engaged in African slave trade across the Indian Ocean to the Far East and South Asia. Africans captured fellow Africans and sold them into slavery, where they would work in households in faraway lands. Typically the slaves sold to Muslim traders were from central and eastern Africa. Slaves were the only type of private property that existed, so personal wealth depended on how many slaves one owned.

The term “age grade” refers to how people around the same age would gather in African tribes to perform work or share stories. Both men and women shared in farming work.

There were several empires in Africa. In West Africa, the kingdoms thrived based on transporting and trading gold and salt across the Saharan desert. Once the Berbers discovered how to use camels to take them across the desert in the A.D. 200s, trade across the desert began. Ironically, salt became so important to preserving food and promoting health that it became almost as valuable as gold! These empires in West Africa raised money by taxing the goods as they passed through their empires. Islam was popular in West Africa and children were taught to read the Qu’ran in Arabic.

The Kingdom of Kongo was a Bantu-speaking society that lasted from sometime after A.D. 1000 to the 1500s. It consisted of present-day Congo and Angola. It declined once the Portugese explored and invaded the east coast of Africa in the mid-1500s, and introduced the Catholic religion to the Kongo.

The Kingdom of Aksum, located in present-day Ethiopia, traced its roots of Aksum to the migration of Arabs across the Red Sea into Africa in 1000 B.C. It had a written language called “Ge’ez” (a Semitic languge using Arabic characters) and controlled the southwestern portion of the Arabian Peninsula. The peak of its power was under the strong ruler named Ezrana in A.D. 325-360. Ezrana conquered Kush and destroyed the city of Meroe. He also converted to Christianity and a Coptic Church formed in the Aksum kingdom. Aksum developed a coin currency and a unique architectural style called a “stele”, which consisted of large stone pillars. But in A.D. 710, the Muslims conquered Aksum and destroyed its big trading city known as Adulis.

The Kingdom of Ghana (A.D. 800-1076), Mali (A.D. 1235-1403) and Songhai (A.D. 1403-1591) were all located in West Africa and were mostly Muslim. Ibn Battuta, a Muslim traveler who toured the Islamic regions of the world around A.D. 1352, wrote of his admiration of Mali. All these West African empires thrived under strong rulers and the very active gold-salt trade across the Sahara. Trade was based on leopard skins, slaves, pepper, ivory, bronze, brass and copper. A society known as Hansa was famous for its leather goods and cloth. But by A.D. 1500 both Islamic countries and Christian European countries were gaining influence in Africa.

The Kingdom of Zimbabwe existed from southeastern Africa to the Indian Ocean around A.D. 1200s to the 1500s. Like other African empires, the city of Great Zimbabwe was build on trade, particularly gold. Numerous Swahili towns in this region of Africa profited from trade in slaves, ivory and goods from Persia, China and India, such as cotton, silk and perfumes.

Religion. Islam and Christianity both spread in Africa, and still do today. However, the Africans would often retain some of their tribal customs. Historians claim that the Africans treated women better under tribal customs than under Islam, citing less use of the veil by women in African societies than Arab Muslim societies. African Christians also had conflicts with principles of faith established by European Christians, such as issues related to the divinity of Christ, although the Catholic Church today is growing much faster in Africa than in Europe. For example, Coptic Christians in Egypt slightly differ from European Christians in their view of Christ, and they split in A.D. 451.

Islam was more popular in North Africa, where it became the main religion for the peoples bordering the Mediterranean Sea. The Berbers converted to Islam, and then merged with the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties to bring North Africa under Muslim rule by the end of the seventh century. From northern Africa, the Muslims entered and conquered southern Spain, where they were known as Moors. The Muslims then increased trade with other African peoples and regions bordering in the Indian Ocean. The Almoravid dynasty conquered Morocco in the A.D. 1000s and Ghana and parts of southern Spain in A.D. 1076. By the mid-1100s, the Almoravids conquered the Almohads also.

Meanwhile, Christianity had some success in East Africa, and particularly in what is now Ethiopia. Trade between East Africa and central Africa and the Indian Ocean flourished both under the Muslims in East Africa and, later, the Portuguese.

==Oceania==

The name “Oceania” describes the lands of the central and south Pacific, including Australia, New Zealand, Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia, and sometimes the Malay Archipelago. The islands traded with each other, though typically not with faraway lands.

The Australian aborigines (natives) exist to this day on the island, having their own culture that only began to change with immigration by Europeans in the past 200 years. The aborigines foraged (searched) for food and did not farm.

In fact, Australians did not have agriculture until the Europeans arrived. The earliest agricultural civilizations were the Indus Valley, Sumer (Southwest Asia), Egypt and Andean highlands (potato). Agriculture developed independently in different areas of the world in ancient times.

Like other cultures, the Polynesians were polytheistic and used a flattened or terraced pyramid for worship, similar to a ziggurat. They grew in population most significantly after A.D. 1000.

The Hawaiian islands in the middle of the Pacific are so far away that they are not typically part of Oceania, and the distance was too far to establish trade until European sailors arrived.

The New Zealand population survived by growing sweet potatoes and fern roots, and also by raising dogs. Fish was obviously a major food source on many of the islands, including Hawaii.

None of these Oceanic societies had metallurgy (e.g., iron) or other technology. But they did have social structures common to nearly every society, with a military class and the rich and poor.

[[Category:World History lectures]]
{{DEFAULTSORT:World History Lecture 06}}

World History Lecture Six

2008-11-15T01:19:00Z

HSpalding: /* Introduction to the Second Millennium (A.D. 1000s) */ Bologna = 1st non-Muslim university

[[World History Lecture One|1]]-[[World History Lecture Two|2]]-[[World History Lecture Three|3]]-[[World History Lecture Four|4]]-[[World History Lecture Five|5]]-[[World History Lecture Six|6]]-[[World History Lecture Seven|7]]-[[World History Lecture Eight|8]]-[[World History Lecture Nine|9]]-[[World History Lecture Ten|10]]-[[World History Lecture Eleven|11]]-[[World History Lecture Twelve|12]]-[[World History Lecture Thirteen|13]]-[[World History Lecture Fourteen|14]]

World History

Sixth Lecture – Middle Ages (the Second Millennium)

Instructor, Andy Schlafly

==Introduction to the Second Millennium (A.D. 1000s)==

The second millennium began in the 1000s with a century of turmoil as Christianity grew larger and Islam began to challenge it. Two key dates were 1054, when the schism or split occurred between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and 1055, when the Seljuk Turks captured Baghdad in present-day Iraq. Both events set the stage for a big battle between Christian and Moslem forces in Palestine.

In 1054, the Byzantine empire established its own church, known as the “Eastern Orthodox Church.” This church resulted from the schism in the Roman Catholic Church. The dispute began with a controversy over the popular use of icons and then spread to other issues such as whether priests could marry and whether divorce would be allowed.

The word “icon” comes from the Greek word “eikon” for “image”. The Eastern Orthodox Church embraced icons and rejected three-dimensional statutes. The Eastern Orthodox Church also allowed its priests to marry, and permitted divorce. The Roman Catholic Church took the opposite position on all three issues. Also, in an Orthodox wedding ceremony there is no exchange of vows between husband and wife. That is considered for them to decide privately.

These churches disagreed about the authority of the pope, which would cause a split between Catholics and Protestants centuries later, also led to disagreements between the Eastern Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church. To this day there have been many efforts to reunite these two churches, but they have been unsuccessful. Today Turkey is 99% Muslim, but the Eastern Orthodox Church remains the dominant church in Russia and many countries of eastern Europe and Asia.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and particularly its Saint Cyril were extremely influential in converting the Slavic regions of Eastern Europe (including Russia) to Christianity. Saint Cyril even established a new alphabet for the purpose of teaching the Slavs to read the Bible. His Cyrillic alphabet remains the basis of the alphabet for Russia and other Slavic countries.

After the schism, the Catholic Church strengthened its organizational structure in 1059 when it established the College of Cardinals to elect future popes, thereby ensuring a smooth transition from pope to pope that has continued to this day. At that time power in western Europe was centered in two places: Germany, where the Saxons ruled, and Rome, where the papacy presided. Their relationship was sometimes friendly, sometimes not-so-friendly. Smaller kingdoms in France and England existed also.

The biggest event in English history was the Battle of Hastings in 1066, when the Normans invaded and conquered the island and established the reign of William the Conqueror, which lasted until 1087. The Normans continued on to conquer most of Italy in 1084.

The most important pope of this time was Pope Gregory VII, who reigned from 1073 to 1085. He is known for ending the control of the western church by the secular (non-church) rulers, particularly by abolishing lay investiture, by which lay lords had control over the choice of bishops, abbots and other church officials. Pope Gregory excommunicated the German King Henry IV for insisting on installing bishops, and Henry IV even crossed the Alps in wintertime to seek forgiveness and absolution from the pope in the Canossa incident in 1077. Historians today view the incident as an example of humiliation of a king by a religious leader. Pope Gregory forgave him, but then Henry IV continued to demand control and even removal of Pope Gregory, ultimately causing him to flee Rome in 1084 to survive. Pope Gregory died a year later, while Henry IV lived on for another 20 years.

Christianity continued to grow in power based on the feudal system. The Christians defeated the Muslims in Spain in 1085 at the battle of Toledo, beginning the process of converting Spain back to Christianity after hundreds of years of Moslem rule.

Several strict Christian religious orders were established in the 1000s in Europe, including the Carthusian Order (1086) and the Cistercian Order (1098). There are monks today who continue to belong to these orders. Both orders require silence and vegetarianism, in addition to giving up all worldly possessions. The Carthusians lived like hermits; the Cistercians spread Christianity and western farming knowledge to Eastern Europe, hosting many retreats for citizens to attend and participate in a week or weekend of prayer and learning. At its peak, the Cistercians had over 700 monasteries. The first university in the world outside Muslim realms was established in 1088: the University of Bologna in Italy.

Capping the end of the 1000s was the capture by the Christians of Jerusalem. This was the greatest success of the Crusades, which we discuss next.

==Crusades==

The most famous military activity in the feudal period was the “Crusades”, a series of wars covering nearly 200 years, from A.D. 1096-1291. Only the First Crusade and, to a lesser extent, the Third Crusade were successful. But the First Crusade alone was immensely successful.

One of the main purposes of the Crusades was to make Jerusalem safe for Christian pilgrimages. Fed up with reports of the murdering of defenseless Christian pilgrims, in 1095 Pope Urban II called for feudal knights to retake the Holy Land from the Seljuk Turks. The Seljuk Turks seemed almost invincible as fighters, having conquered Asia Minor and even beating the once-mighty Byzantine Empire. The Seljuk Turks ruled from the 1000s to the 1200s, and did particularly well under its ruler Malik Shah, who died in 1092. But some Moslems were unhappy with being ruled by the Turks, and once Malik died dissension in the Islamic world grew.

The Byzantine emperor, Alexius Comnenus, had been repeatedly defeated by the Seljuk Turks and he asked the pope for help to defeat the Moslems. He promised a reunion of the Eastern Orthodox Church and to give Byzantine lands (“fiefs”) to victorious knights from the feudal west.

At the Council at Clermont in southern France, Pope Urban II gave one of the greatest speeches ever. Promising absolution and assurance of salvation to anyone who died in the crusade, he urged a huge crowd to protect Christian pilgrims from the Turks. He demanded that all internal feuds end and he threatened excommunication for anyone who continued to bicker internally. Those who decided to fight in the crusades were said to be “taking up the cross,” because they would wear a tunic with a large red cross on it.

At first Peter the Hermit answered the call of Pope Urban and led an unprepared group of peasants in the first mission, which failed. But news of its failure led to renewed determination by the Christians, and a well-equipped religious mission led by the Normans was formed. This became known as the First Crusade.

When the western forces reached Constantinople to join with Alexius’ soldiers, the western army was already overwhelming. It proceeded to capture Nicaea in 1097, and went onward to Jerusalem despite intense fighting and hardship.

In 1099, the First Crusade invaded and succeeded in capturing Jerusalem, and set up four feudal kingdoms that would remain for nearly 100 years. Critics claim that the Christian crusaders massacred the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the process. But it was a huge military victory and Jerusalem was finally made safe for the pilgrims.

A mixture of Christian spirituality and military adventure motivated the participants in the Crusades like never before in history and perhaps never since. Merchants participated also in the hope of establishing new trade connections. While historians emphasize abuses committed by soldiers, most of the crusaders were acting to advance the cause of Christianity and secure salvation for others and perhaps themselves. This was not necessarily true for all of the crusaders. Criminals who fought were pardoned, and a crusader was exempt from taxation from the time that he “took up the cross,” until he returned from the war. Still for the most part, this was a religious war.

A Second Crusade in 1147-49 was a failure. In 1187 the Muslims captured Jerusalem under their leader Saladin, and the Third Crusade (1189-92) had the limited success of obtaining a truce from Saladin that promised to allow Christian pilgrimage to Jerusalem. That Crusade was led by the leaders of France and the Holy Roman Empire and King Richard the Lion-Hearted of England. The first returned home after an argument on the way to Jerusalem, and the second drowned; only King Richard saw the mission through.

Two subsequent crusades were tragic. The Fourth Crusade (1202-04) never reached the Holy Land and ended with the crusaders’ sacking Constantinople—a Christian city—wounding it forever and embittering the East against the West. A Children’s Crusade (1212) consisted of peasants leading thousands of children on a mission of love to Jerusalem, but the children either drowned or were taken and sold into slavery. The later Crusades lost their religious motivation. Historians claim they were motivated by greed and ambition.

The Crusades remain a controversial issue, but all agree that the impact of the Crusades was enormous. Indeed, the Crusades were the biggest cause of the end of the Middle Ages in Western Europe. There are many reasons why:

(1) The Catholic Church gained more power due to the Crusades, and this led to the Reformation.

(2) The Crusades introduced Europeans to many new goods from the East, and this greatly increased trade. These new goods included cotton, citrus, sugar, oriental carpets, glassware, paper and gems.

(3) The Crusades introduced Europeans to gunpowder, one of the most significant inventions in the history of the world. Gunpowder influenced all future military conflicts.

(4) The Crusades contributed to the end of feudalism and gave power to kings, because the knights had to sell land to the kings to pay for the mission to Jerusalem. Many nobles lost their lives in the Crusades, further strengthening the relative power of the monarchs. Merchants favored the rise of kings, who could better promote and protect trade than feudal knights could.

(5) The increase in trade due to the Crusades led to an increased use in money rather than barter, and a new middle class (the “bourgeoisie”) developed.

(6) Italian city-states, such as Rome, grew in power based on providing supplies and ships for the crusaders trying to reach the Holy Land.

(7) Europeans were inspired by magnificent cities they saw in the East, such as Constantinople, along with achievements in business and artistic works.

(8) Historians argue that the Crusades improved the power of women who were left to manage property as the crusaders went off into battle.

Some Christians fully defend the Crusades, and proudly compare the United States’ invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq to a modern version of the Crusades.

==The Mongols==

Asia and eastern Europe suffered the scourge of vicious fighters known as the Mongols. Japan was very fortunate in one key respect: it is an island enjoying the protections of water against invaders like the Mongols.

The Mongol tribe came from Mongolia, which is northwest of China in central Asia. They were skilled warriors and expert horsemen, capable of riding for days without any difficulty. They would pitch tents as needed and they would roam throughout Asia, destroying anything that stood in their way. They were known for their savagery and were poor administrators of the lands they conquered.

The founder of the Mongol empire was Chinggis (Genghis) Khan (1162-1227), who united the Mongol tribes. He dreamed of creating the biggest empire in world history, and he did exactly that. He built a massive and powerful army based on meritocracy (promotion based on merit rather than friendship or seniority).

Chinggis Khan led the Mongols from 1206 to 1227. Historians consider him to have been a military genius, and he conquered the largest contiguous empire in the history of the entire world.

In all of history, only the Mongols were able to invade Russia successfully in the wintertime. The Mongols conquered Russia in 1237, and ruled over it until 1480. This caused isolation of the Russians from Europe, thereby creating a distrust of Europeans (and Americans) that exists to this day. Russia suffered economically and intellectually from the Mongol rule, and its citizens were subjected to the status of peasants who could act only as serfs for their protectors among the Russian ruling class, who imposed taxes for the benefit of the Mongols. Prince Alexander Nevsky, based on his cooperation with the Mongols, became the first prince of Moscow and all of Russia. The tributes by the Russians to the Mongols did not end until Ivan III of Moscow refused to pay tribute in 1480. By then the Mongols were too weak to do anything about it.

In 1231, the Mongols invaded Persia and killed hundreds of thousands of people. In 1258, the Mongols defeated the Muslims in Baghdad, located in modern-day Iraq. The Mongols spared Christians in the city but killed the caliph Abbasid. Only later did the Mongols themselves convert to Islam.

The Mongols destroyed cities, irrigation systems, and anything else that they wanted to. They were greatly feared. They ruled so much land that they had to divide it into four regions: Russia, China, central Asia and Persia. The region of Russia is known as the Khanate of the Golden Horde.

Brutal in their military techniques, the Mongols added the Chinese warfare of gunpowder and the catapult to their fierce arsenal. They seemed unstoppable and, in addition to conquering much of Asia (including present-day Russia), they also ruled what is now Poland, eastern Germany and Hungary by 1242. They were finally beaten back by Egyptian Mamluks in a famous battle in Palestine, where for the first time another group was able to defeat the Mongols in tough hand-to-hand combat. The furthest the Mongols could reach into western Europe was the outskirts of Vienna.

The Mongols enjoyed continued success in China, where Kublai Khan founded the Yuan dynasty beginning in 1260, with its capital in present-day Beijing. He connected the Huang He River with Beijing by extending the Grand Canal. He promoted Buddhism and ended mandatory education in the teachings of Confucius. He allowed freedom of religion. He installed foreign administrators to manage the vast country.

But the Mongols could not conquer Japan. Twice they tried to cross the waters to reach Japan, in 1274 and 1281. Each time an intense wind that the Japanese call the “kamikaze” turned back the Mongols. It was not until World War II that a larger seaborne invasion of Japan was attempted. The Mongols were also unable to conquer Cambodia or Vietnam. The Mongols did control Korea from 1231 to 1350.

The Mongols retained control of the area known as “Eurasia”, which is the region where Europe and Asia meet. It consists of flat grassland that lacks almost any trees, also called “steppe”.

From the 1250s to 1350s, there was a period of “Mongol Peace” (Pax Mongolica) when traders were not harassed and some might say were even protected by the Mongols along the Silk Roads, which were the ancient and medieval trade routes linking the Mediterranean world to China.

Inflation (weakening of the money) destroyed the Mongol empire, just as it destroyed so many other empires and countries. The rulers kept printing more money and its value kept declining, until businessmen did not want to use it anymore. Persia obtained its independence from the Mongols in 1335, and China rebelled against the worthless money also, ridding themselves of the Mongols in 1369, when the Chinese established their own Ming Dynasty. But the Mongols remained a constant threat to China into the 1700s.

The collapse of the Mongol empire in Persia and eastern Europe enabled the Ottoman (Muslim) Turks to rise to power. They built their own empire then, which lasted until World War I and continues to influence Turkey to this day.

Today about 9 million people speak the Mongol language: 2.7 million in Mongolia; five million in Inner Mongolia; and one million in Russia. Some in Afghanistan and Turkey are descended from the Mongols.

==Nation-States in Europe==

After the Crusades, the kings and the Catholic Church had much more power and feudalism was weakened. This set the stage for a rise in power of the nation-states that continue to exist to this day. Viking invasions, which had contributed to the rise of feudalism, subsided. The Vikings settled down and converted to Christianity and the threat of foreign invasions was diminished. With new stability, trade began to flourish once again. The European population tripled between A.D. 1000 and 1300.

Towns began to grow, and merchants formed “guilds”, which were organizations to establish rules and fairness in trade. Guilds were led by men, but both men and women could be members of a guild. The practice of apprenticeship began during this time period, by which young men could receive training from a master craftsmen. A middle class arose, comprised of bankers, merchants and craftsman, and was known as “burgess” in England, “bourgeoisie” in France, and “burgher” in Germany. As prosperity grew, there was also a rise in banking and investment, and gold coins were used as currency. An agricultural revolution occurred, bringing improvements such as new plows, harnesses and farming methods. Feudalism continued to decrease as food surpluses occurred, population increased, and many serfs could now leave the manors.

An epidemic of the bubonic plague known as the Black Death struck Europe and many parts of Asia between 1347 and 1351. The plague was spread by rats and other rodents, and spread rapidly along trade routes and especially the Silk Road. It originated amongst the Mongols in Asia, who carelessly allowed their sacks of food to be exposed to rats and fleas that carried the fatal disease. Traders brought it with them into the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe. In four short years, 40 to 45% of the European population was lost to the plague, especially the poor. The Mongols amplified the problem by using catapults to toss plague-ridden bodies over city walls. The modern world is not the first to use biological warfare.

The fatality rate was even higher in China, where an estimated 25 million died from it. It took 100 years for Europe and China to recover, and a longer period of time for Islamic countries and the Middle East. Egypt was hit particularly hard, with some areas not recovering for 500 years.

The germ theory of disease had not been discovered, so nobody could figure out what was causing people to catch and die from the disease. How do you know if you have the disease? Here are the symptoms. Three to seven days after an infection, the person experiences initial symptoms of chills, fever, diarrhea, headaches, and the swelling of the infected lymph nodes. If it is untreated, 30-75% of those who contract the plague die.

The plague weakened the Catholic Church, which appeared helpless to stop it. After the plague began to subside in the 1350s, there were severe worker shortages and even rebellions as workers demanded higher pay. The devastation to the serf population weakened the force behind the success of the manors and contributed greatly to the end of feudalism. The plague also created a demand for more centralized government that could respond effectively to disease.

In England, the rise of a centralized government began with a series of Anglo-Saxon kings including Alfred the Great, Edward the Confessor and Harold. In 1066 William the Conqueror, a Norman duke, led an invasion of Britain against the Saxon King Harold. He successfully conquered the country and declared himself owner of all its land, granting fiefs to his Norman lords. The system of feudalism under William led to the rise of a centralized government, and the blend of the Norman and Saxon cultures would come to define the people of England. In 1166, William’s relative Henry II introduced trial by jury and took control of the court system in the “assize of Clarendon.” Royal judges traveled throughout the land, their decisions establishing an English common law, which has greatly influenced law in the United States. William was married to Eleanor of Aquitaine, a remarkable woman who had two husbands and two sons who were kings.

Henry’s successor was his son, Richard “The Lionheart,” who fought in the Third Crusade and Richard’s successor was his brother John “Lackland”. History and myth surrounding these two men has been immortalized in legendary figures such as Robin Hood and Ivanhoe. Under John’s rule, Philip II of France seized Normandy, and the nobles of England objected to John’s extreme taxation to fund a war. They revolted in June 1215, and forced John to sign the “Magna Charta” (or “Magna Carta”), a “great charter” that diminished the king’s power and gave increased rights to the nobles. It granted the rights to trial by jury and equal protection under the law, and prohibited taxation without representation. The English parliament was also established at this time; the burgesses and knights of the middle class (later known as the “House of Commons”) were now allowed to participate in the legislative process along with bishops and lords (“House of Lords”). These parliamentary bodies govern Britain to this day.

The rise of a unified nation-state in France began with a line of kings known as the “Capetians” (987-1328). Hugh Capet was the first of the Capetian kings. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, the Capetians had succeeded in bringing most of France under a centralized government. Philip II was a Capetian king who expanded France, seizing territories including Normandy from John of England, and establishing the official office of “bailiff”, with tax collecting and royal court duties. Louis IX “the Pious” established an appeals court, with authority surpassing that of the local courts. Under the Capetian kings, a French legislative body known as the “Estates General” was created, including the “Third Estate,” which allowed commoners to participate in lawmaking.

Germany did not succeed in establishing a nation-state, but attempts were made, beginning with Otto I “the Great.” Otto ruled from 936-973, allied himself with the pope and attempted to establish a “Holy Roman Empire.” His efforts did not succeed in uniting Germany as one nation, however. Likewise, in Italy, a unified nation failed to emerge. Instead the various city-states fought bitterly amongst eachother, which was to continue for centuries.

While nation-states were rising, and kings were gaining more and more authority, controversy arose over who held supreme authority: the pope or the king. “The Great Schism” (1378-1417) was an argument resulting in French cardinals electing an “antipope” (Clement VII) in order to dispute the authority of recently elected Pope Urban VI. This and other controversies set the stage for the Protestant Reformation.

The Hundred Years’ War, between England and France, lasted from 1337 to 1453. This war began when the last Capetian king died without leaving a successor, and English King Edward III seized the French throne. Joan of Arc, a girl who felt called by God to lead the French army, defeated the English at the siege at Orleans in 1430 at the age of seventeen, but was later captured by the English and burned at stake as a heretic in 1431.

==Church Philosophers and Architecture==

While nation-states were growing in Europe, so were universities. A rapidly-growing number of rich and poor students were instructed in universities in Paris, Oxford, Naples, Padua, Salerno and many others in theology, philosophy, law and medicine. During the 1100s and 1200s “scholasticism” flourished, which sought to combine logic of the classical philosophers with medieval Christian theology. The Scholastics were divided into two groups, the realists (preferring the works of Plato) and the nominalists (preferring Aristotle’s teachings).

Saint Anselm (1033-1109), born in northern Italy, was an early intellectual giant of scholasticism. The period from the late 1000s to about 1300 is known as the “High Middle Ages,” partly due to this intellectual activity known as scholasticism and also due to great population growth.

Scholasticism strengthened understanding of Christian doctrine through careful definition and systematic argument. Anselm preferred to defend Christianity through use of powerful logical arguments, rather than relying entirely and solely on scripture. Anselm is famous for the first “ontological” argument, which is an argument attempting to prove the existence of God by reasoning from the definition of God.

Anselm was a brilliant Latin scholar who became a Benedictine monk to the disappointment of his father, who wanted him to enter politics. After Anselm became a monk, he “proved” the existence of God as follows. Everyone, even a fool, can conceive of a variation in perfection of a being. In other words, some beings are more perfect than others with respect to justice, wisdom or power. Because there is a variation, there must be a being that is most perfect. But “existence” is an attribute of perfection: it is more perfect to exist than not to exist. Therefore the most perfect being must also exist. Therefore God, defined as the most perfect being conceivable, must exist.

Anselm also had a tremendous logical argument for why Christ must exist. In the feudalism of Anselm’s day, the severity of a crime and amount of satisfaction required of the offender varied depending on who the victim was. Someone who committed a crime against the king would require more satisfaction or payment by the criminal after he was caught than a similar crime against a peasant. Similar rules exist today, where a crime against the president is far more serious than a similar crime against an ordinary citizen. Anselm wrote a paper entitled “Cur Deus homo?” (“Why Did God Become Man?”), in which he explained that finite man could never satisfy a crime or sin against the infinite God. Only an infinite man (Christ) could provide full satisfaction because the victim of the crime or sin was the infinite God. Hence the existence of Christ is essential.

Anselm was appointed the archbishop of Canterbury, England, which he accepted reluctantly. He became determined to reform the English Church and he fought against efforts by the King of England to control or interfere with the Church. At one point Anselm presented his grievances against King William to Pope Urban II. These conflicts were precursors to a huge dispute between a pope and English king centuries later, which caused the king to form his own church and split from Roman authority.

The most famous Scholastic was Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), a Dominican monk who wrote Summa Theologica. Many consider this to be the most perfect and complete summary of Christian theology, and he established an entire type of Christian philosophy known as “Thomism”, which is followed to this day. Aquinas was somewhat controversial during his life, but was quickly revered by the Catholic Church after his death. He developed five new proofs for the existence of God using logic. The first three were “cosmological” proofs rather than the “ontological” approach of Anselm. A cosmological proof deals with the natural order of the universe. Aquinas’ most famous cosmological argument was that whatever is in motion (for example, us) must have been put in motion by something else (our parents). They, in turn, must have been put in motion by something else (their parents). But this sequence cannot go on to infinity. There must have been a first mover. This we call “God”.

Thomas Aquinas’ views on the nature of man included a unique interpretation of the Fall of Man; some would call it an incomplete one. He believed that while men had rebelled against God and the human will was fallen, the human intellect remained perfect. Therefore, human wisdom could be relied upon and given as much prominence as the teachings of the Bible. This idea justified mixing the works of the classical, secular philosophers into Christian theology. Also as a result, the authority of the church became as important, if not more so, than that of the Bible. These ideas set the stage for humanism, which was the predominant philosophy of the Renaissance.

Thomas Aquinas is further known for his famous observation that the devil cannot withstand mockery. Mockery can be useful in defeating a bad idea or temptation.

There were other prominent Scholastics, such as Peter Abelard (1079-1142), who used logic and questioning to discuss issues of religious controversy in his Sic et Non (“Yes and No”).
There was outstanding architecture in the Middle Ages, which can be seen in the majestic churches built during that era. There were two main styles: Romanesque and Gothic. Romanesque architecture is characterized by thick walls, rounded arches and small windows. The Gothic style, developed later, consisted of taller, perpendicular structures with long windows, pointed arches and “flying buttresses” (stone supports on the outer walls of churches). Gothic architecture, with its tall, pointed spires is said to reflect the desire of people of the Middle Ages to grow closer to God, reaching towards heaven and away from the earth. Tall windows allowed sunlight to illuminate the interior, unlike Romanesque architecture, in which windows were small and interiors were dim. A particularly stunning example of Gothic architecture is the Notre Dame in Paris, on which construction began in 1163 during the reign of Louis VII, and was completed about 200 years later in about 1345. The Notre Dame features a beautiful stained-glass “rose window,” another distinguishing characteristic of Gothic churches.

==The End of the Byzantine Empire and the Expansion of Islam==

The end of the Byzantine empire occurred when Mongols invaded in the 13th century, followed by the rise of the Ottoman (Muslim) Turks to power in the 14th century, who replaced the Byzantium empire with their own. The Ottoman empire then lasted over 600 years, from 1299 to 1923, when it was divided by the victors in World War I. At the height of its power in the 16th and 17th centuries, the Ottoman empire included Anatolia, the Middle East, portions of North Africa, and much of southeastern Europe.

While powerful nation-states were developing in Europe, absolutist empires were spreading throughout the East and Islam was growing rapidly. In present-day Turkey, in a region known as “Anatolia,” Muslim warriors called “ghazi” arose, seeking to conquer land belonging to infidels, or people of non-Islamic faith. A famous ghazi named Osmen Bey began the Ottoman empire. The strongest element of the Ottoman and other Asian empires of the time was their use of gunpowder, which gave rise to the term “gunpowder empires.” Under Ottoman rule, non-Muslims had to pay a tax to avoid military service, which was mandatory for Muslims. Slaves called “janissaries” were also used as warriors.

In 1453 Ottoman sultan Mehmed II captured Constantinople, and tore the cross off the top of the Hagia Sophia, and declared the Christian church a mosque. Selim the Grim and Suleiman I followed, expanding the Ottoman territories into an empire comprising Constantinople (now Istanbul), Syria, Palestine, Egypt, North Africa, Greece and even parts of Hungary and Austria. The height of the Ottoman empire existed during the reign of Suleiman I, which lasted from 1520 to 1566 AD. Suleiman was known by Europeans as “the Magnificent” because of the splendor of his reign, but has had the most prominence throughout history for his outstanding contribution as a lawgiver. His picture can be found in the United States Supreme Court alongside those of Moses, Thomas Jefferson and Solon. Called “people of the book”, Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their faiths under Ottoman rule.

In addition to the Ottoman empire were the Islamic empires of Safavid and Mughal. The Safavid dynasty, located in north-west Persia, was founded by a 14-year old “shah” (king) named Ismail who conquered the Seljuk Turks in North India. The Shi’ite Safavids fought with the Sunni Ottomans for 200 years. Safavid Shah Abbas the Great saw the peak of the Safavid Empire during his reign from 1588-1629, and established trade with Europe.

The beginnings of the Mughal Empire, located in India, were established by Babur around 1525 AD. Under the reign of Babur’s grandson Akbar (1556-1605), the Mughal Empire experienced its “Golden Age,” during which taxes were decreased. The languages spoken were Persian, Hindi (still spoken in India today), and Urdu (a new language combining Persian, Hindi, and Arabic characters; present-day Pakistan’s official language). Other religions were tolerated under Akbar’s rule, but not under Aurangzeb’s notoriously intolerant rule (from 1659-1707), during which Hindus were taxes and their temples torn down, causing discord in the Mughal Empire, including an uprising of the previously non-violent Hindi-Muslim Sikhs.

Contributions of these Islamic empires include the stunningly beautiful Taj Mahal, an enormous tomb built of pure white marble beginning in 1631 by Akbar’s grandson Shah Jahan for his beloved wife. Building of the Taj Mahal in India lasted 18 years, and 20,000 workers were used. Jahan was so overwhelmed with its beauty, and so cruel to its workers, that he had their hands cut off so they would never build another one like it! Jahan also constructed the “Red Fort,” a red-sandstone palace and the “Peacock Throne,” encrusted with thousands of gems. Many beautiful mosques and palaces were built in Constantinople under Ottoman rule, many designed by artist and architect Pasha Sinan. The most famous Ottoman form of art was the blue-and-white pottery of Iznik.

The Islamic empires participated in international trade (especially the Ottomans and Safavids), but not to the extent that the Europeans were trading. Technological advancements flourishing in Europe (such as the printing press) were not received well in dar-al Islam (lands under Islamic control). These factors, combined with prolonged periods of warfare eventually led to the downfall of the Islamic empires.

==Africa==

As we have already seen in this course, language played a central role in defining a society. This was also true in sub-Saharan Africa (south of the Saharan desert), where the Bantu language was shared by peoples in West Africa prior to 1000 B.C. Historians refer to the West Africans as “Bantu speakers” who lived along the rain forest on the edge of what is now Nigeria. The Bantu speakers began migrating to the east and south of Africa around 2000 B.C., and this migration was at its peak between about 700 and 500 B.C. By A.D. 1000, the migration had ceased and several Bantu kingdoms arose in southern Africa.

In eastern Africa, the Arabic language was influential. When the Bantu language collided with Arabic, the result was the Swahili for the peoples of east Africa.

There was no private property in these settlements, as property was shared among the community. Typically a family member served as the leader of each family or “kinship group” and there was no formal government.

Fruits, particularly bananas, initially imported from Southeast Asia by traders, were a major source of nutrition that helped increase the health and population. Malay sailors brought the banana over the Indian Ocean to an island known as Madagascar, where the people still speak a language similar to that spoken in Malaysia.

The primary African religion was “animism”, or a belief that spirits exist in nature similar what some American Indians believe. The religion was handed down from generation to generation not in writings, but in oral stories. The storytellers are called “griots”. There was a little bit of farming along the edges of the rain forests, but most of the activity was a “hunting-gathering” type. In central Africa there was some cattle raising.

By 700 B.C. the Bantu speakers in West Africa discovered iron smelting, and began using it to make tools and weapons. The distribution of knowledge of that invention followed the path of the spread of the Bantu language itself through central and southern Africa.

There was an active slave trade in Africa long before Americans began importing slaves in the early A.D. 1600s. Muslims engaged in African slave trade across the Indian Ocean to the Far East and South Asia. Africans captured fellow Africans and sold them into slavery, where they would work in households in faraway lands. Typically the slaves sold to Muslim traders were from central and eastern Africa. Slaves were the only type of private property that existed, so personal wealth depended on how many slaves one owned.

The term “age grade” refers to how people around the same age would gather in African tribes to perform work or share stories. Both men and women shared in farming work.

There were several empires in Africa. In West Africa, the kingdoms thrived based on transporting and trading gold and salt across the Saharan desert. Once the Berbers discovered how to use camels to take them across the desert in the A.D. 200s, trade across the desert began. Ironically, salt became so important to preserving food and promoting health that it became almost as valuable as gold! These empires in West Africa raised money by taxing the goods as they passed through their empires. Islam was popular in West Africa and children were taught to read the Qu’ran in Arabic.

The Kingdom of Kongo was a Bantu-speaking society that lasted from sometime after A.D. 1000 to the 1500s. It consisted of present-day Congo and Angola. It declined once the Portugese explored and invaded the east coast of Africa in the mid-1500s, and introduced the Catholic religion to the Kongo.

The Kingdom of Aksum, located in present-day Ethiopia, traced its roots of Aksum to the migration of Arabs across the Red Sea into Africa in 1000 B.C. It had a written language called “Ge’ez” (a Semitic languge using Arabic characters) and controlled the southwestern portion of the Arabian Peninsula. The peak of its power was under the strong ruler named Ezrana in A.D. 325-360. Ezrana conquered Kush and destroyed the city of Meroe. He also converted to Christianity and a Coptic Church formed in the Aksum kingdom. Aksum developed a coin currency and a unique architectural style called a “stele”, which consisted of large stone pillars. But in A.D. 710, the Muslims conquered Aksum and destroyed its big trading city known as Adulis.

The Kingdom of Ghana (A.D. 800-1076), Mali (A.D. 1235-1403) and Songhai (A.D. 1403-1591) were all located in West Africa and were mostly Muslim. Ibn Battuta, a Muslim traveler who toured the Islamic regions of the world around A.D. 1352, wrote of his admiration of Mali. All these West African empires thrived under strong rulers and the very active gold-salt trade across the Sahara. Trade was based on leopard skins, slaves, pepper, ivory, bronze, brass and copper. A society known as Hansa was famous for its leather goods and cloth. But by A.D. 1500 both Islamic countries and Christian European countries were gaining influence in Africa.

The Kingdom of Zimbabwe existed from southeastern Africa to the Indian Ocean around A.D. 1200s to the 1500s. Like other African empires, the city of Great Zimbabwe was build on trade, particularly gold. Numerous Swahili towns in this region of Africa profited from trade in slaves, ivory and goods from Persia, China and India, such as cotton, silk and perfumes.

Religion. Islam and Christianity both spread in Africa, and still do today. However, the Africans would often retain some of their tribal customs. Historians claim that the Africans treated women better under tribal customs than under Islam, citing less use of the veil by women in African societies than Arab Muslim societies. African Christians also had conflicts with principles of faith established by European Christians, such as issues related to the divinity of Christ, although the Catholic Church today is growing much faster in Africa than in Europe. For example, Coptic Christians in Egypt slightly differ from European Christians in their view of Christ, and they split in A.D. 451.

Islam was more popular in North Africa, where it became the main religion for the peoples bordering the Mediterranean Sea. The Berbers converted to Islam, and then merged with the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties to bring North Africa under Muslim rule by the end of the seventh century. From northern Africa, the Muslims entered and conquered southern Spain, where they were known as Moors. The Muslims then increased trade with other African peoples and regions bordering in the Indian Ocean. The Almoravid dynasty conquered Morocco in the A.D. 1000s and Ghana and parts of southern Spain in A.D. 1076. By the mid-1100s, the Almoravids conquered the Almohads also.

Meanwhile, Christianity had some success in East Africa, and particularly in what is now Ethiopia. Trade between East Africa and central Africa and the Indian Ocean flourished both under the Muslims in East Africa and, later, the Portuguese.

==Oceania==

The name “Oceania” describes the lands of the central and south Pacific, including Australia, New Zealand, Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia, and sometimes the Malay Archipelago. The islands traded with each other, though typically not with faraway lands.

The Australian aborigines (natives) exist to this day on the island, having their own culture that only began to change with immigration by Europeans in the past 200 years. The aborigines foraged (searched) for food and did not farm.

In fact, Australians did not have agriculture until the Europeans arrived. The earliest agricultural civilizations were the Indus Valley, Sumer (Southwest Asia), Egypt and Andean highlands (potato). Agriculture developed independently in different areas of the world in ancient times.

Like other cultures, the Polynesians were polytheistic and used a flattened or terraced pyramid for worship, similar to a ziggurat. They grew in population most significantly after A.D. 1000.

The Hawaiian islands in the middle of the Pacific are so far away that they are not typically part of Oceania, and the distance was too far to establish trade until European sailors arrived.

The New Zealand population survived by growing sweet potatoes and fern roots, and also by raising dogs. Fish was obviously a major food source on many of the islands, including Hawaii.

None of these Oceanic societies had metallurgy (e.g., iron) or other technology. But they did have social structures common to nearly every society, with a military class and the rich and poor.

[[Category:World History lectures]]
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