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	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals&amp;diff=497990</id>
		<title>Talk:People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals&amp;diff=497990"/>
		<updated>2008-08-11T00:09:23Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* &amp;quot;PETA opposes the human ownership of animals as pets or work animals.&amp;quot; */ new section&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Hrm, it's too bad I can't use some [http://www.students.bucknell.edu/bmetz/rants/peta/ personal research] I did. :) [[User:Jazzman831|Jazzman831]] 22:59, 20 July 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The main page for this article should be the full name of the organization, not the acronym. I'm proposing the article be moved to [[People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals]]. [[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 20:03, 11 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Stop me if I'm overstating the case. PETA may or may not see human beings as [[animals]] - the way most liberals do. In [[Biology]], human beings are classified as part of the [[Animal Kingdom]]; see [[primates]] or [[mammals]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Also, they don't say they want animals to have '''exactly''' the same [[rights]]; there are no plans for them to vote in elections. They use the word &amp;quot;consideration&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm still studying their view on people and (other) animals in relationships that can be seen as mutually beneficial. If I befriend a wild animal, and it starts to like being with me, am I &amp;quot;using&amp;quot; him (in a way PETA would condemn)? If I have a pet now, must I return it to the wild? Or what? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:05, 18 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:They have companion animals, actually.  If you are interested in the topic, I highly recommend Peter Singer's ''Animal Liberation'', which examines the topic at some length and really was the foundation of the &amp;quot;animal rights&amp;quot; movement.--[[user:TomMoore|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#000066&amp;quot; &amp;gt;Tom Moore&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:29, 18 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm going to rewrite this article, actually, Ed.  It just needs a redo, since it's scattered and not really cohesive.  Also, PETA's aims against fishing and hunting and circuses and so on are very well-known objectives, so I'm not sure they are criticism, as they are listed now.  Even though I dislike PETA and disagree with them, I am familiar with the philosophy and a vegetarian myself, so I think I can treat the subject fairly.--[[user:TomMoore|&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#000066&amp;quot; &amp;gt;Tom Moore&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;]]&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 12:43, 18 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== &amp;quot;PETA opposes the human ownership of animals as pets or work animals.&amp;quot; ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That's not really accurate, from what I've heard. They think the world would be a little nicer if people had never domesticated wild animals and kept them as pets, but they have no plans to stop them now. In fact, they believe it's good to adopt animals without homes as that cuts down on animal suffering.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
From [http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp| PETA's official web site]: &amp;quot;Adopting a cat or dog from a shelter and providing a loving home is a small but powerful way to prevent some of this suffering. The most important thing that animal guardians can do is to spay or neuter their animals and avoid buying animals from breeders or pet stores, which contribute to the overpopulation crisis.&amp;quot; I also found [http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-petaonpets.asp| another page on PETA's web site about pet ownership] and they specifically say that contrary to myth, '''&amp;quot;PETA does not want to confiscate animals who are well cared for and 'set them free.'&amp;quot;''' and that they want &amp;quot;the population of dogs and cats to be reduced through spaying and neutering and for people to adopt animals from pounds or shelters&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So that quote should probably be removed from the article.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=484031</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=484031"/>
		<updated>2008-06-29T20:54:20Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* Westboro Baptist Church */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Talk:Liberal/Arch1|Archive 1]]|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch2|Archive 2]]&lt;br /&gt;
|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch3|Archive 3]]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!-- =============DO NOT ARCHIVE ANYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE!============================== --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This entry is really quite pathetic. If you're going to lock an entry, at least clean it up first. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 23:49, 11 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree. Someone must put pictures of famous liberal democrats and photoshop horns onto them. That would drive the point home.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Much improved, thankyou. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 20:13, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Sorry to say it, but I have to agree.  I was going to add some content here but of course I can't.  This article is really quite bad, not to mention very incomplete.  It would be better to deal with vandalism manually than to prevent the article (which really is quite important, is it not?) from being developed. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 11:25, 17 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Westboro Baptist Church?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?&lt;br /&gt;
:Why?  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 17:35, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It's because [[Fred Phelps]] is a [[liberal|liberal activist]] (see the discussion on the [[Talk:Fred Phelps|talk page]] for an explanation).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::By the way, it appears the link is broken anyway. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 18:34, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Different definitions of Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just wanted to add a line pointing out that in some countries such as Australia, the term Liberal is actually used to refer to the conservative view.  See the Liberal Party of Australia as an example.  This could be worth pointing out as it will prevent them being tarnished by the comments here aimed towards the left wing type Liberals.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That list of (supposed) liberal positions at the beginning is at best a half-truth.  Many liberals (including me) DO NOT SUPPORT a number of them.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 10:43, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm sorry, but the plural of &amp;quot;antidote&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;antidotes,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;data.&amp;quot; The list stays. [[User:J2xl|J2xl]] 22:00, 30 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Do tell us, J2, what is the plural of 'malapropism'? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:38, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And just what is so wrong about taxpayer-supported government schools?  If it weren't for them, many people, including my parents, wouldn't have been able to get an education.  By the way, does the stance of Aschlafly et al against this mean that they would be willing to voluntarily support the education of children not their own whose parents couldn't afford to?[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 00:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Pathetic Article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The formatting is abysmal, the content laughable. I thought Conservapedia was a serious movement to write articles from a right-wing intelligent viewpoint... but i see it's dominated with weak, stolen political jokes. JOKES in an apparently &amp;quot;informative&amp;quot; article. If this is just an oversight, i retract everything.&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with the comment above and have reinstated it despite someone (I think Karajou's?) deletion of it. However it should have been signed. I think it's Silvanus', but I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Does anyone know a way of adding a signature to someone else's comment? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::IMHO, liberalism is like silly putty, you can make of it whatever you want to.  Like Hillary going for the Christian vote or Kerry for the NRA.  Next they'll be going after the cigarette smoker vote. All else is extraneous. But that is probably too simple a definition.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:19, 19 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well, I certainly agree that the editors are applying that attitude to this article. It's generalised, bigoted and unencyclopedic. Yours is not a humble opinion, it's a pompous and largely unfounded diatribe. This isn't trolling, I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the admins are stonewalling any revision of this article, when it's such an important topic. 'Know thine enemy', at the very least. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 16:07, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We could unlock it and put today's DNC talking points in. Of course then we'd have to revise it tomorrow to say something completely opposite to accomodate tomorrows talking points.  Call this a [[stable version]].  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 16:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Uhhhh, nearly all my edits are gone.  Those edits were made to strengthen the article.  dubweiser.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal Failures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Rush Limbaugh]] had a section in the December 2007 [[Limbaugh Letter]] called &amp;quot;Liberal Failures&amp;quot;. At rushlimbaugh.com, Rush says he got the idea for his article from an article by Jeffrey Lord: [http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters - American Spectator].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush lists several examples of liberal failures under each of these categories:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Economy/Taxation&lt;br /&gt;
*Health Care&lt;br /&gt;
*Law/Criminal Justice&lt;br /&gt;
*Environment&lt;br /&gt;
*Education&lt;br /&gt;
*Immigration&lt;br /&gt;
*Culture&lt;br /&gt;
*National Security&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush says &amp;quot;''Liberalism doesn't work''. It fails, every time it's tried.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nailing the Left - Liberal Failures, [[Rush Limbaugh]], ''The [[Limbaugh Letter]]'', December 2007, pp. 13-15&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jeffrey Lord lists examples of these liberal disasters:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Forced School Busing&lt;br /&gt;
* Welfare&lt;br /&gt;
* Luxury Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Alternative Minimum Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Bringing Peace to Vietnam and Cambodia&lt;br /&gt;
* Free Love&lt;br /&gt;
* Drugs&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;TOO SUM UP: Whether it was education policy, welfare policy, economic policy, foreign policy or social policy, time after time after time what became the guiding lights of modern American liberalism proved to be utter disasters. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters] Jeffrey Lord, ''The American Spectator'', 11/6/2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We could create a new page called [[Liberal Failures]] or incorporate it into one of our existing liberal articles. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 10:41, 9 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Denial of gender differences by liberals==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;denial of inherent gender differences, leading to things such as wanting men and women to have the same jobs in the military (while quietly holding them to different standards)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Should we also note that liberals think women should be able to vote too, even though the conservatives throughout history have fought against women's suffrage? [[User:Alexjohnc3|Alexjohnc3]] 18:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Subsection on liberal rankings of members of congress? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article would benefit from a brief subsection on the rankings of the national journal: http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/index.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The is a very informative page with rankings and voting records of all congress members.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 18:59, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I made the change, feel free to lock the page again.  Thanks --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:26, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Westboro Baptist Church  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see Westboro Baptist Church removed from the list of liberal associations.  The only thing evidence I can see for them being liberal is Fred Phelps's run for office as a Democrat.  In my opinion, this is the same sort of guilt by association, that we accuse Wikipedia of on the Biases of Wikipedia page.  To put it another way, having Westboro Baptist Church in the Liberal section, would be like a liberal site having KKK as a conservative organization simply because David Duke was active in the KKK and ran for office as a Republican.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 20:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Thanks for removing this, Ed! --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:28, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The other, damning evidence is Phelp's supporting Al Gore's run for President, contributing money to him and providing office space to his campaign.  So, aside from Phelp's running as a Democrat, and there are plenty of Democrats who are not liberal, all there is to show him as a liberal is his picture with Al Gore, and those pesky election commission documents and press reports,  showing the contributions and office space donations. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:23, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I disagree that supporting a Democrat automatically makes you a liberal. No &amp;quot;one&amp;quot; issue makes you a liberal, so let's look at the whole person, not just one aspect, in deciding his political ideologies. What other liberal tendencies does he have?   Do we know (or is it known) his current political affiliations? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I respect that disagreement. But I didn't say just being a Democrat makes one liberal, read the post, I clearly say there are lots of Democrats who aren't liberal.  But supporting Gore does make you one!  :P   But I think the reference is fair, inasmuch as the looney far left continues to assert that the evil Phelps is a conservative.  Therefore showing all of his affiliations is the only right thing to do, so the users of this encyclopedia will see all of his many facets, and can decide for themselves what (it) Phelps is. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:22, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It seems that Phelps supported Gore when Gore refused to support gay rights, then turned on Gore when he joined Clinton in promoting gay rights, going so far as to picket the funeral of Gore's father screaming &amp;quot;Your Dad's in Hell!&amp;quot; That doesn't strike me as liberal, just opportunist. Fred Phelps has only one issue that he cares about, which almost makes him apolitical. [[User:RandomishName11|RandomishName11]] 00:50, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree that we should let the users decide for themselves what he is. They can't, however, decide for themselves if we tell them what to think. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:25, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this is sort of absurd. I certainly don't want WBC to be called ''conservative'', but I don't think they're liberal either. That's just kind of silly. I don't care who he supported for president. Any organization as vehemently opposed to the sin of homosexuality as they are cannot be described as &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot;, since liberals won't even admit that homosexuality is a sin in the first place! That's kind of like calling NARAL conservative simply because they are as proud of America and her military as much as conservatives are (which I'm absolutely not saying they are, but I needed something to use as an example). It's just silly. --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 02:21, 15 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:Whoops, I meant to say NARAL, not NARTH. Lol, NARTH ''is'' rather conservative. It's fixed now.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Huh? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Wait a minute. So, if the media has a [[liberal bias]], wouldn't reinstating the fairness doctine limit '''liberal''' airtime instead of Conservative airtime? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Liberals control ''most'' media, and especially newspapers and television.  They don't control talk radio, but want to grab that also and support the phony fairness doctrine for that reason.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::... Wouldn't the fairness doctrine cover all broadcast media? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::A day passes. Silence. It is contradictory to claim that liberals control all media, but equal time only harms conservatives. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; is associated most with the United States politicians and, besides, its meaning is not all that different in other countries.  A qualification is not necessary or helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I suggest that you read the section headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot;.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 21:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.S. It may assist you to take a look at where the Australian Liberal Party are on the political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::I assume that I have convinced you.  If I hear no further from you I will proceed to reinsert my edit.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 16:54, 30 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The only one I see that only applies to US liberals is the one about the living Constitution. The rest are correct, though. Perhaps we should put a disclaimer next to this one, and then leave the opening line as &amp;quot;A liberal is...&amp;quot;. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whoops I found a couple more (the ones about the First Amendment and the Fairness Doctrine), however the majority of the qualities are not limited to the US. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::: Even the issues you cite have analogs in other countries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:37, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::You're probably right. Could we change the wording a bit to reflect that? That way you won't have to keep reverting people. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:25, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: I don't the see the need for any changes, and reversion will still be necessary because the [[liberals]] will never be happy with this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::::That's probably very true. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Glad we're all getting on so well.  Those silly liberals will never learn.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyhoo, doesn't look like either of you read the section in the article headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot; as I suggested in my post above.  Nor, I assume, did you follow the political compass link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not sure why it is so important to maintain internal inconsistency in this article.  Nor do I understand why it is so important to maintain that the American usage of the word liberal is the only usage of the word in the world today (which it clearly is not as the article itself states).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Any even half sensible explanation would be appreciated.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:43, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:If you want to be taken seriously please keep a civil tone. I'm sorry I didn't see those links; I was primarily responding to the edit war, which was over the statement &amp;quot;a liberal poseses the following qualities&amp;quot;. I messed up, I'm only human. Feel better now? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:20, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: My apologies to you.  I am rather more annoyed with Andy who blocked me for a 90/10 violation (coincidentally while we were disagreeing here and on the talk:Liberal denial page).  I did not realise that you were looking at something else.  We are all only human as you say.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Actaully, upon review, I think you may have been looking in just about the right place.  The edit war was over the inclusion of the phrase &amp;quot;In the United States a Liberal...&amp;quot; at the start of the article.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:31, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: So, should I change it back again?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 17:27, 5 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I'm guessing that wouldn't be a wise idea. I would take a look at [[conservative]], though. Perhaps if you moved the general definition to the front, then it would make more sense to have the specific list refer to only Americans. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== about liberals ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by documented cyclical changes in the earth's climate and more affected by Soccer moms driving SUV's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. You have to believe that the teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make 'The Passion of the Christ' for financial gain only.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice  person.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag queens, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected,and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is somehow in the best interest to the United&lt;br /&gt;
States.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
22. You have to believe that it's okay to give Federal workers the day off on Christmas Day .........but it's not okay to say &amp;quot;Merry Christmas&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Thiudareiks|Thiudareiks]] 06:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&amp;quot; Speaking as a filthy pinko liberal, this is actually pretty funny. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Cool.  You got one of these for Conservatives, too?  --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:07, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Positive Liberal Contributions To Society ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Are there any? --[[User:RJest|RJest]] 17:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course there are&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Niccolò Machiavelli (Florence, 1469-1527), best known for his Il Principe was the founder of realist political philosophy, advocated republican government, citizen armies, division of power, protection of personal property, and restraint of government expenditure as being necessary to the liberties of a republic&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Desiderius Erasmus (Netherlands, 1466-1536) was an advocate of the doctrine now known as humanism, critic of entrenched interests, irrationality and superstition. Erasmusian societies formed across Europe, to some extent in response to the turbulence of the Reformation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Hugo Grotius or Hugo de Groot (Netherlands, 1583-1645), laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law, in his book Mare Liberum (Free Seas) formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory and all nations were free to use it for seafaring trade&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Hobbes (England, 1588-1679) theorized that government is the result of individual actions and human traits, and that it was motivated primarily by &amp;quot;interest&amp;quot;, a term which would become crucial in the development of a liberal theory of government and political economy, since it is the foundation of the idea that individuals can be self-governing and self-regulating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Baruch Spinoza (Netherlands, 1632-1677) is in his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus and Tractatus Politicus a proto-liberal defending the value of separation of church and state as well as forms of democracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The notions of John Locke (United Kingdom, 1632-1704) of a &amp;quot;government with the consent of the governed&amp;quot; and man's natural rights—life, liberty, and estate (property) as well on tolerance,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*John Trenchard (United Kingdom, 1662-1723) was co-author, with Thomas Gordon of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Gordon (United Kingdom, 169?-1750) was co-author, with John Trenchard of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Benjamin Franklin (United States, 1706-1790) was an inventor, scientist, writer, entrepreneur, diplomat and statesman. He called for the end of mercantilism while advocating free trade, industrialization, the abolition of slavery, free public libraries, democratic government and national unity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jean-Jacques Rousseau (France, 1712-1778) promulgated the idea that men were naturally free, but had to be educated to live in society. This required a natural liberty and a &amp;quot;national will&amp;quot; which could be directed to improvement of the society. He is famous for the quote &amp;quot;men are born free, but are everywhere in chains&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Should I go on. OK good. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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** Wow... comprehensive, concise and encyclopedic. I propose we incorporate the above comment into the page itself. A new subsection, perhaps - &amp;quot;Liberal contributions to Western thought&amp;quot;? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 22:11, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*I ripped it from Wikipedia, however i thought it was expressed very intelligently and there is much more&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::: Too bad none of the above are liberals in the modern meaning of the word.  Think [[Benjamin Franklin]] supported &lt;br /&gt;
[[abortion]]???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:39, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, or Abraham Lincoln? (Yes, Honest Abe was a Liberal by the standards of his time, since slavery was the status quo.  A Liberal so despised by half of the population that they were willing to '''commit treason''' rather than put up with him.) --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As for the above statement maybe Benjamin did not support abortion but remember things 50+ years ago were very conservative remember liberal means progress. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:As Robert Anton Wilson has said, you can go from Liberal to Conservative in 25 years without changing a single opinion. --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Citation Request ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It looks like my citation request may have deleted more than a few lines.  How did this happen?  Can it be corrected? --Jimmy 14:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think you might have edited an older version of the page. The line you wanted to add a fact to was not even there in the version prior to your edit. I have reverted it to the version right before yours. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:23, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Richard Dawkins/Barack Obama ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm glad someone added the wikilinks to the last gem added - all it now takes is for someone to click the links, then consult the Talk pages for those articles to see how stupendously, amusingly wrong that entry actually is.  Though to save people the trouble, here it is - Oxford University not only say that Richard Dawkins is, in fact a professor, but actually awarded him a position with the title of the 'Professor of the Public Understanding of Science'[http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/1995-6/supps/2_4408.htm#4Ref].  Barack Obama was a 'Senior Lecturer' at the University of Chicago, and they released a press notice saying,'Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors'[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html].  So, going by the examples listed, 'liberals', in fact, call people 'professors' when...erm...they are. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 10:26, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Well to be fair, Oxford entered the fray after the tempest started, and post-facto seems to have, err, re-arranged its thinking, lol.  Typical [[liberal deceit]]. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:17, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry about leaping in there with the deletion, TK. It just seemed (a) below the belt, since there are plenty of dubious PhD's espousing conservative views, and (b) out of place in a list detailing ideological stances. I still don't see the need for it, I'm afraid. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 21:53, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, Oxford granted Dawkins his professorship in 1996.  The link I provided above demonstrates this.  The 'tempest' (I would actually call it more a 'storm in a teacup') started in 2007, when a certain person here tried to throw doubt on Dawkins' academic credentials in what can only be described, quite frankly, as a blatent ad hominem attack. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 16:32, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I saw that in the article and actually registered to help you guys correct it.  I wouldn't want an error like that giving the site a poor reputation.  Unfortunately, the page is locked.  Here's the [http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/index.shtml link on Oxford's site] showing Professor Dawkin's title, and U.Chicago's [http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama professor profile] of Obama seems to link directly to the UC press release.  --[[User:ZachPruckowski|ZachPruckowski]] 10:27, 26 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reverts ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could we discuss on the talk page instead of having an edit war? Thanks. In case it's ambiguous, I'm talking about the inclusion of &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:22, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Personally, I'm in favour of deleting it, since it's not actually a political stance. What's more, it's an ''ad hominem'' generalisation (I didn't even know such things were possible until I came to Conservapedia... ;-D ) [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:14, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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: The reason for my removal of said bullet point is firstly that it is not a political belief (which the introductory sentence says is the object of the list), it is an act which some editors think is typical or generally the case with liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
: Secondly, I would entirely disagree with the notion that liberals engage in such an act; I would also entirely disagree that conservatives do, or for that matter any definable section of society. &lt;br /&gt;
: Unless someone can find a reference which shows that a significant percentage of liberals routinely call similarly-minded individuals 'professor' - which they won't - I will believe that the editor that included it either fabricated such information or believes it to be true despite not having studied the debating habits of a large proportion of liberals. All information here should have a reference, particularly if it is likely to be contested, regardless of the effect that it has on the arguments of such editors, whatever their ideology be. If it is impossible to provide a reference, then such information should not be included. &lt;br /&gt;
: I would therefore agree with Underscoreb's comments. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 18:19, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The discussion page (and archives) of Dawkins provides ample proof of what latitude liberals are willing to cut those of like-mind. As well as Andy's thoughts on the matter, and his own conclusion that the included item is accurate. Its inclusion here was suggested by Andy as well. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:23, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Surely we can do better than that, TK - what you seem to be saying is, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to some liberals once, and they said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. The second part of your argument seems to be, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to Andy once, and he said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. Leaving aside the argument of whether those figures have or haven't earned their credentials, this statement is tarring all liberals with the same brush, based on a conversation you witnessed. It's not the most rigorous methodology. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:34, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I agree with Uderscoreb's reply to TK's comments. TK - your reasoning is very illogical: it relies on the premise that: &amp;quot;if some X have character Y, then it must be a common trait of X to display Y&amp;quot; The influence of the people that agree with your arguments has no effect on the validity of such an argument;  as has been used on the [[Global warming controversy]] article: &amp;quot;In any event, it is important to remember that public opinion does not change the physical reality. Even if 100% of people of both parties believe in anthropogenic climate change, if the reality is that mankind is not responsible, then public opinion to the contrary does not change that fact&amp;quot;. Conservapedia rightly recognises this argument, why does it not stand here? Surely you must agree that generalisation of the kind used to justify inclusion of said liberal trait entirely falls flat on condition of its logical worth; you must do, otherwise dragging 'Andy' into the argument would not be necessary. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 07:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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LOL!  Sounds utterly, almost European in logic, and certainly liberal. Here in America, we have a saying:  &amp;quot;You made your bed. Now lie in it.&amp;quot; Please don't expect the rest of the world to agree with your efforts to hide from plain view your most obvious traits. Perhaps Ed Poor will consider a reading plan for you so that the veil can be lifted from your eyes. &amp;quot;Andy&amp;quot; is a noted expert on liberal apology, and as such, always germain to the discussions here. It is clear you recognize that fact because of your stated aversion it!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:51, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:''European'' logic? Just logic, I reckon. Good old conservative logic. American logic. Ancient Greek logic. Logical logic. BTW, I also agree with Underscoreb. The discussion page on Dawkins proves nothing - even if we accept the premise that Dawkins himself is an evil liberal. You cannot prove a generality by quoting a number of instances. (And you certainly can't prove anything by appealing to authority.) [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 08:07, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Don't be a d***. You know full well that rational thought is not restricted to the laws of [[deduction]]; see also [[induction]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:10, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::TK, nobody needs a veil to hide 'obvious truths' if they are simply illogical. And please do not use ''ad hominem'' arguments (like labelling anything I say 'European') to detract from arguments that you disagree with, and divert attention away from the point of the debate. If I said that &amp;quot;Conservepedia editors use ''ad hominem'' arguments to prove their views&amp;quot;, you would rightly disagree, as I would, because clearly it is not true, despite evidence that some do (right here). Equally, saying that liberals believe in &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is illogical - some might, as might some centrists, some conservatives, some Africans, some women, any polity one can think of - but it is extremely obvious that it is not something that liberals or any polity is defined by more than any other. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:14, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ed Poor - yes I do, but you should know that there are well-justified problems with the validity of induction, particularly where the observed classes are not objects but thoughts, ideologies and polities. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:29, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I believe the phrase you are looking for, EU, is [[Logical_fallacy#Overgeneralization|overgeneralization]]. Also, just as a point of order: all arguments being made here are inductive. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 10:20, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thanks for the term - that is definitely one of the relevant acts. Yes this discussion is inductive, well pointed out =) Over-generalisation is all too common; generalisation is a justified way of inferring information about the whole from that of a part, but it is very easy to wrongly use it in situations where it is impossible to predict the nature of the whole from a part, as is the case in point, and the error used in such analyses as the famously disproved 'all swans are white' case. Over-generalisation can lead to such senseless acts as discrimination, and, as proved by this article, fallacies in the description of disagreeable ideologies. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 10:44, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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May I make a suggestion?  Keep the disputed sentence, but move it over to [[liberal style]].  It fits in very nicely over there.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 17:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree, it's definitely more an example of liberal style than it is a political position, as all the rest of the items on the list are. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:51, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Pragmatically, I support such a move also; despite mine and others' misgivings about its legitimacy, at least it is more appropriate there. --[[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 14:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::''Pragmatically'' what this encyclopedia needs is less &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;obfuscation&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;, and chipping away by internationalists, of the conservative, American, POV of Conservapedia, to make it read neutral.  Moving something ''Europeans'' and liberals don't agree with, to another article, is censorship. If liberal users disagree with the conservative point of view of CP, they should give up trying to change it, and find a liberal/internationalist encyclopedia to edit, IMO.  If they did, two-thirds of these needless arguments would be eliminated, IMO. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:04, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I think RossC's suggestion is a good one. Not because &amp;quot;calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is not a liberal trait (though no one has yet demonstrated that it is), but because (as a couple of others have said) it isn't a political or quasi-political belief like the other items in the list, and it looks out of place here. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*Well, I added it at Andy's suggestion, made on his talk page, as the edit note clearly states,  so the question as to if it belongs ''here'' is pretty moot, I think.  I disagree that Schlafly hasn't demonstrated that fact, 100 times over, on the Dawkins or Obama talk pages.  I do agree that it appears only liberals disagree on that. It is an argument certainly older than CP, between conservatives and liberals, and all the more a bone of contention between Europeans and United States conservatives.  It boils down to a clear disagreement between ''Internationalists'' (and they are primarily liberal) and those of us who support CP, which was founded as a U.S. Christian/Conservative - friendly encyclopedia, to continue to be true to that.  While I wouldn't want to ignore the world as ''Internationalists'' see it, or wish it to be, that outlook is already embraced by Wikipedia, several thousand times larger than CP, so the POV is more than adequately served. So, while wanting to acknowledge what the liberal &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot; is, it cannot, nor should it be, incorporated into CP's articles, other than to point out what those who believe in it think, and why American conservatives think they are wrong.  &lt;br /&gt;
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*Some, mostly from other countries, while they might be Christians, ''certainly are not United States conservatives'', and even they seek to impose their unique, anti (or contrary to)-U.S. point of view on CP, trying, bit by bit, to remove anything they consider &amp;quot;U.S.-centric&amp;quot;.  They are among those, like the liberals, who seek to fundamentally change the founding precepts of Conservapedia, and turn it towards the so-called &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot;.  While I don't seek to diminish what they believe (they cannot help it, being used to a &amp;quot;Wikipedian World&amp;quot; and not Americans) their role here, editors or admins alike, it seems to me, is either to get on board with CP's point of view, or at least stop the constant arguing that distracts from more content being made, and discouraging conservative editors from doing so. Since the actual practice of &amp;quot;conservatism&amp;quot; outside the United States, is fundamentally different, that puts CP automatically at odds with Europeans and others who might say they are &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; but in actual political practice their philosophy is closer to United States liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::You seem to be confusing censorship with moving something to a different place; you well know that this suggestion is not censorship. Secondly, you seem to be, rather paranoiacally, confusing the legitimate opinion of a sentence's logicality/legitimacy with some form of opinion, which (again with the personal attacks) stems from the idea that just because some here are liberal, not American, internationalist, means that their objections are part of some anti-American, anti-CP, anti-conservative or anti-whatever viewpoint quest to annoy, obfuscate or slow down progress. The reason that I, and a couple of others, object to that sentence is nothing to do with opinion, just logic, and the suggestion to move it to another article is just about appropriateness. A list about conservative positions would not include anything that isn't a position (like professor-calling), same as a list on liberal positions would not. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:30, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::'''''Personal attacks?''''' On whom?  Liberals in general?  Some particular liberal? I demand an apology!  CP is indeed an American ''conservative'' encyclopedia.  You somehow seem intent on arguing forever, obstructing, until your personal POV  (self-declared as logic) is accepted as the model of rationality. And you somehow mistake sticking to one's principles for paranoia, lol. I see you (not me) have resorted to personal insults, Europeanunion.  Called me paranoid, didn't you?  That is indeed a bit different than making a generalized (but true) statement about liberals and internationalists. Since you are a liberal, all that you think, all of your logic, is colored through that prism. The article was locked, by an Admin, for a reason, and that reason was removal of material conservatives deem appropriate, and suggested by the Owner.  If you don't like it, go to his page and take him to task for daring to be so illogical as to suggest adding it. But remember this isn't a mobocracy. Conservative thought will always prevail here. I hope you enjoy your weekend!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:09, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is clear that we will never see eye-to-eye over this issue, or the nature of each other's arguments. I express my preference for deleting the sentence, but recognise the impossibility of that in this situation. I express my preference that the sentence be moved to a more appropriate article, and hope that this occurs. But I don't think that there's anything more to add to substantiate my views, or to be achieved by further arguing here, so I will leave the discussion, unless someone asks for my opinion on a development. I will instead continue adding information in my field of experience with less controversial articles which are not personal favourites of sysops. Thanks for your hope TK, I hope everyone has a nice day =) [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 11:23, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::It's unfortunate that we could not come to an agreement on this matter :( [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:58, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, given the first few posts here, with the item being unilaterally removed without any discussion, ''and Europeanunion calling me a paranoid, and accusing me making personal attacks'', &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;and not apologizing for either statement when asked to&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;; did anyone here really think that was the way to accommodation or agreement? I sense a double standard here, with some people being pretty free at calling posts &amp;quot;trolling&amp;quot; when they don't agree with the POV, and yet allowing others to make personal attacks/name calling, and never saying a word.  That is neither Christian, fair or conservative, is it?  And this from the same people extolling their &amp;quot;logic&amp;quot; and fairness.    --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:41, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was going to concentrate on other things on CP, but I believe your previous post deserves a reply. I did not call you paranoid, but that you &amp;quot;rather paranoiacally&amp;quot; confused an objection based on legitimacy with an opinion based on where I live et cetera - the word paranoia being defined as &amp;quot;suspicion of others that is not based on fact&amp;quot;. The personal attacks were the ''ad hominem'' arguments that you used - the definition of that phrase is &amp;quot;replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument&amp;quot;. I do not apologise for stating that, but I am sorry if you feel it is an injustice (I do not). [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:46, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So, even a statement about the thinking of liberals is branded &amp;quot;ad hominem&amp;quot; arguments now, simply because you refuse to accept what liberals think and do?  I will note that an argument isn't a personal attack as you labeled it. And I am sorry, but this is not Wikipedia, so your assertion of some rule that CP doesn't have, nor endorse, is specious. This encyclopedia has hundreds, thousands of entries, cataloging liberal deceit and liberal thinking, and their attempts, like your statement above, to brand any contrary thinking to liberal tenets as an &amp;quot;attack&amp;quot;. As for &amp;quot;paranoia&amp;quot;, well, your own post above clearly demonstrates CP's suspicion of liberals is well-founded. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:06, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Affront ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As someone who doesn't proscribe to any particular political ideology, but would be labeled as a liberal, I'm honestly quite offended by this article. This isn't an encyclopedic entry, it's a systematic assault on liberalism. I understand that it's the opposing viewpoint from the reigning one here, but you have to have some level of integrity. How would you feel if I made a Liberapedia and filled the &amp;quot;Conservative&amp;quot; page with unproven remarks about how your political ideology is based exclusively on greed? You can't claim to be &amp;quot;The Trustworthy Encyclopedia&amp;quot; when you have articles like this. It's just disgusting. You could go ahead and write a section on why liberal viewpoints conflict with yours, but having the entire damned page filled with hate and bigotry is horrible. [[User:Shortcat|Shortcat]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You didn't cite any specific examples in the entry to support your rant.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:51, 10 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Support of obscenity and pornography as a First Amendment right[4] -&amp;gt; This is simply untrue. Instead of stating a fact (liberals tend to support free speech), you're saying that liberals believe porn is their constitutional right. That's bull.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama). -&amp;gt; What?&lt;br /&gt;
:: Some argue that liberals typically support economic policy similar to that of fascism. [7] -&amp;gt; So liberals are fascists now? That's just plain offensive.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Typo ==&lt;br /&gt;
Implementation is spelled incorrectly in the lead. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 23:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== WBC is a &amp;quot;Liberal Organization&amp;quot;? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I usually refrain from capslocking, but WHAT? The [[Westboro Baptist Church]] is a ''liberal organization''? If the article wasn't protected, I would suspect vandalism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A hate group that condemns homosexuality, Roman Catholics, Muslims and Jews, as well as Swedes, Canadians, Irish, British, Mexicans and Americans is a ''liberal organization''? This smells like [[political identification bias]] to me - a conservative editor doesn't like WBC, so it ''must'' be liberal! --[[User:JBrown|JBrown]] 10:00, 11 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But WBC and Phelps hate the US military, and have made it their primary&lt;br /&gt;
mission to demonstrate and publicize this.  Also, he was inarguably a liberal civil&lt;br /&gt;
rights attorney before he turned to his present fixation.  Perhaps where he's taken&lt;br /&gt;
liberalism even justifies a new appellation...  '''hyperliberal''', anyone? &lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jamesmason|Jamesmason]] 20:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=484030</id>
		<title>Talk:Same-sex marriage</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=484030"/>
		<updated>2008-06-29T20:52:05Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* Adding mores links */ Gah...forgot to sign my name...again&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Talk:Same-sex marriage/pov }}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this&amp;quot; is completly wrong==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage is good. &lt;br /&gt;
No one can criticize what is good. &lt;br /&gt;
A same-sex union, defined as marriage, is good. &lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, no one can criticize same-sex unions.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ''not'' the Liberal rationale for legalizing gay marriage, if that is going to remain there there should be at least a few sources as to which Leberal said that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''actual'' liberal rational:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Marriage, like '''all''' institutions of the law, should not be defined by ''one'' or ''any'' specefic religion, or religion all together.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The fact that the legallity of Gay marriage is the debate proves its a matter of law, automatically disqualifing any given religions say on it. ''See also: [[seperation of church and state]]''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Atheists can and do get married, further proof it isn't a religious establishment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* A homosexuals person's life has nothing to do with ''yours'', and because homosexuallity does not violate any human rights, ''you'' should not have the right to tell them they cannot get married.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I realize this is conservapedia and you guys would rather have untruthful things that make you sound right, but reality is better than ''sounding'' right if you ask me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bias==&lt;br /&gt;
I do not feel the article is from a neutral point of view. This article seems to be obviously against gay marriage. I also propose that the statistics for spousal abuse in heterosexual relationships are put up beside the homosexual statistics for a comparison. I personally believe not allowing homosexual marriage is not allowing equal freedoms for all people. Also I do not think the reason for not allowing gay marriage should be the bible, as not only should there be a complete separation between church and state, but Athiests and Agnostics are not stopped from getting married, neither should homosexuals.[[User:Strata|Strata]] 23:40, 18 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree completely that there is bias here. It's one thing to be against same-sex marriage, but it's ridiculous to insinuate that same-sex marriage as an attack on heterosexual marriage. [[User:Forthewin827|Forthewin827]] 15:22, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is page protected?==&lt;br /&gt;
B/c I wanted to edit it, but I can't.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Won4tide1|Won4tide1]] 17:41, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Yes, it is.  Please post your suggested changes here first.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:43, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Addition to Rationale ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is another rationale used by proponents of same sex marriage.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Essentially it is as follows:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage exists as both a religiously and legally defined entity in the United States.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage confers certain legal benefits upon those married. Additionaly marriage has social value in that it is used as a signifier of individuals' commitment to one another&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a legal tradition in this country which holds that sexual orientation is not a valid status upon which one may deny legal rights or protections.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The refusal to recognize same sex marriage constitutes such a denial of legal rights and protections. Since those in a same sex marriage are, by definition, homosexual- this constitutes a denial of legal rights and protections based upon sexual orientation.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Refusing to recognize same sex marriages essentially violates long standing legal traditions.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The most logical remedy to this situation is to allow the recognition of same sex marriages.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is also a philosophical justification that same sex marriage does not destroy the institution of marriage in society.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In most religious traditions, marriage exclusively recognizes the sacred bond of love between a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However society has a more general definition of marriage as an institution that recognizes the profound (and one could still say sacred) bond of love existing between two individuals- traditionally a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recognizing same sex marriage recognizes the legitimacy of the bond of love between same sex partners.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However the religious definition of marriage is still unique in that it specifically focuses upon the devine blessing of the union between a man and a woman. Thus this traditional sense of marriage retains its unique character.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that it is important to add these rationales because these are the ones that you are most likely to encounter in the discourse on gay marriage. Those looking for information on the subject would be best served by being able to read the most commonly used rationales.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Adding mores links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The article seems fine at this point, but it could use some more links to other Conservapedia articles after the introduction. I thought it was a little odd that editing was disabled in this article, or else I would have added the links myself. --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 16:52, 29 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this marriage in inverted commas (quotes)? And why does it say that the purpose of same-sex marriage is to &amp;quot;destroy the sanctity of marriage&amp;quot;? In what doctrine supporting same sex marriage is that said?&lt;br /&gt;
:I think they are saying that that is liberals' true purpose (intention), even if the people supporting same-sex marriage don't actually say it and openly admit it. --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 16:50, 21 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Supporting Gay Marriage==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By and large proponents of Gay Marriage only support removing the states role in prohibiting marriage; they still cannot force religious institutions to marry homosexuals. In other words, even if the Government deemed gay marriage to be ok, the religious institutions would still have all the power. After all, marriage is a union between a man and a woman under God - Why should the State have its neck involved in that? [[User:Graham|Graham]] 15:49, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I agree with you here, Graham.  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|şŷŝôρ-₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|Ṣρёаќǃ]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:27, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*From what I know the proponents of gay Marriage do ''not'' seek to force religion to do ''anything'', and while religious practices may change in the long run just as society changes... In my mind an alternative to gay marriage, a ''better'' alternative (Also since the United States separates church from state and marriage is religious)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Would be civil unions for ANY arrangement, i.e. MM,FF,MF, and make marriage a religious ceremony. Thus any two people could have the legal benefits of marriage, but under legal (state) terminology while if two people want to get married. The local Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam can do that and discriminate in who they partner up. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All these people want is to be happy, part of that is mutual trust and security, and that comes from Civil Unions, Marriage, whatever you want to call it. But seriously, this would work to keep marriage 'sacred' while Homosexuals could unionize with their partner. [[User:Nateland|Nateland]] 19:05, 29 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Unitarian church, among others, performs same sex weddings.[[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 17:05, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't get it. People can be friends, with mutual trust and all that. I can even give my unmarried fried a [[power of attorney]] to handle things like me being in a coma and needing decisions about medical care. What does marriage have to do with &amp;quot;legal privileges for adults&amp;quot;? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:10, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This sentence is gramatically wrong... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is also referred to as &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|gay]] marriage&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|homosexual]] marriage&amp;quot;, is the official certification in jurisdictions that allow a union between two people of the same sex.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and since I just got yelled at, maybe someone else can fix it. [[User:PaulH|PaulH]] 00:25, 28 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tremendous pressure... needs revision==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;Combined with hate speech rules and hate crime laws, a government certification of &amp;quot;same-sex marriage&amp;quot; will place tremendous pressure on people who criticize homosexuality, oppose the gay agenda, or believe in the sanctity of marriage.[Citation Needed] &amp;quot;How do you know we're not married?&amp;quot; would be the simplest of rejoinders. Or, &amp;quot;How dare you criticize my spouse!&amp;quot; (see fighting words).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Same-sex marriage is already legal in Massachusetts and in several other countries, so if this assertion of &amp;quot;tremendous pressure&amp;quot; is true, it should be easy to find cite-able examples of it. I've had no luck thus far, so perhaps someone else should try... if not, we'll have to remove this section, because the article is seriously weakened by assertions we can't justify. Also, we need a working definition of the sanctity of marriage -- I'm sure that many people, churches, groups, etc. consider same-sex marriage perfectly sanctified, so we need to be more specific. I'm removing the language for now, and please, if you put it back in, clarify what is meant by 'sanctity.' Also, the 'fighting words' link appears to be dead, so I'm removing it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers!&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Mermaid|Gabe]] 14:58, 13 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sauce for you.==&lt;br /&gt;
For the homosexual violence statement in the box beneath the spiffy graphic on the upper-right corner of the page: [http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=5a6dc0ec-3807-4f5c-a5ad-c50855986682&amp;amp;k=55181&amp;amp;p=2] [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 19:04, 16 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That article also says that common law relationships (IE live-in but not formally married) are 5 times more likely to experience violence and is the only category seeing growth in violence. Thus, allowing gay marriage would, statistically speaking, reduce domestic violence among homosexual couples. This article actually supports gay marriage from a statistical standpoint....[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 19:28 16, January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yeah... But let's ignore the facts. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:11, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::What facts? [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::What the study shows. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:45, 24 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Non sequitur. It isn't saying that abusive people who get married will suddenly stop being abusive, which seems to be your argument. A more logical conclusion is that abusive people are less likely to get married in the first place. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Move?==&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously, that would be a good idea. It's called same sex marriage throughout the article, why isn't it titled correctly? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 22:13, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, no? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:52, 10 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A counterfeit counterfeit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The following is unintentionally amusing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family refers to the phrase same-sex 'marriage,' with quotation&lt;br /&gt;
 marks around the word marriage, to call attention to his belief that marriage—civil as&lt;br /&gt;
 well as religious—is intrinsically a union between a man and a woman, and that he therefore&lt;br /&gt;
 believes that same-sex unions are &amp;quot;counterfeits.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why did the author put quotation marks around the word counterfeits?  Is it to call attention to his belief that &amp;quot;Dr.&amp;quot; Dobson's views on counterfeits are themselves counterfeit?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:23, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see what you're saying, but I think that's just there to show that it's his words, not Conservapedia's. That's something you do with all quotes, agqain, just to show that it's his word(s). --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 13:34, 19 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graphic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even if the claim beneath the graphic is true: 1) violence is not a defining characteristic of homosexual marriage--therefore the graphic shouldn't be so prominently displayed here; and 2) the purported cycle of violence is not specific to homosexual relationships--therefore it is inappropriate in an article specifically dedicated to homosexual marriage. [[User:Dadsnagem2|Dadsnagem2]] 16:09, 25 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I was unaware that &amp;quot;homosexual marriage&amp;quot; had '''any''' defining characteristics. It's only a counterfeit, a sham aimed at destroying real marriage. This article is not &amp;quot;dedicated&amp;quot; to homosexual marriage; rather, it exposed the counterfeiting of marriage which [[gay rights]] activists are using to destroy marriage. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We have no obligation here to respect sin - don't even try that line of argument. Homosexuality is sinful - and it makes people miserable. Why should we respect it? Do your &amp;quot;respect&amp;quot; the &amp;quot;choice&amp;quot; of adults to have sex with children? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:13, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If homosexual marriage is legal somewhere, does it not therefore exist? I fail to see how the argument of respect (which somewhat disingenuously equates homosexuality and pedophilia) has anything to do with whether it exists or not. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 15:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Laws permitting this sham are on the books in various places. But giving one thing the same name as another thing doesn't validate it. Once again, the article is not about homosexuals &amp;quot;marrying&amp;quot; - or should not be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It should be about the laws and their purpose. It should illuminate the goals of the [[gay rights movement]] and compare their reasoning with the reality of their purpose, as well as the effect those laws are having. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The pathetic attempt to gain love from a sexual partner of the some gender is at the root of this. As [[Richard Cohen]] pointed out - drawing of course on the work of better-educated scientists like Socarides - it's a [[same-sex attachment disorder]]. And by the way, voting [[homosexuality]] out of the manual of psychiatric disorders doesn't change the fact that it's a disorder and a perversion. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Legalizing sin and craziness doesn't make it good, any more than calling spoiled food wholesome. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:11, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's really sad to see people like Ed be so bigoted.  I take comfort in the fact that by the end of my lifetime, gays will have equal rights.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=479454</id>
		<title>Talk:Same-sex marriage</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=479454"/>
		<updated>2008-06-21T20:50:57Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* What? */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Talk:Same-sex marriage/pov }}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this&amp;quot; is completly wrong==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage is good. &lt;br /&gt;
No one can criticize what is good. &lt;br /&gt;
A same-sex union, defined as marriage, is good. &lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, no one can criticize same-sex unions.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ''not'' the Liberal rationale for legalizing gay marriage, if that is going to remain there there should be at least a few sources as to which Leberal said that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''actual'' liberal rational:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Marriage, like '''all''' institutions of the law, should not be defined by ''one'' or ''any'' specefic religion, or religion all together.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The fact that the legallity of Gay marriage is the debate proves its a matter of law, automatically disqualifing any given religions say on it. ''See also: [[seperation of church and state]]''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Atheists can and do get married, further proof it isn't a religious establishment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* A homosexuals person's life has nothing to do with ''yours'', and because homosexuallity does not violate any human rights, ''you'' should not have the right to tell them they cannot get married.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I realize this is conservapedia and you guys would rather have untruthful things that make you sound right, but reality is better than ''sounding'' right if you ask me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bias==&lt;br /&gt;
I do not feel the article is from a neutral point of view. This article seems to be obviously against gay marriage. I also propose that the statistics for spousal abuse in heterosexual relationships are put up beside the homosexual statistics for a comparison. I personally believe not allowing homosexual marriage is not allowing equal freedoms for all people. Also I do not think the reason for not allowing gay marriage should be the bible, as not only should there be a complete separation between church and state, but Athiests and Agnostics are not stopped from getting married, neither should homosexuals.[[User:Strata|Strata]] 23:40, 18 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree completely that there is bias here. It's one thing to be against same-sex marriage, but it's ridiculous to insinuate that same-sex marriage as an attack on heterosexual marriage. [[User:Forthewin827|Forthewin827]] 15:22, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is page protected?==&lt;br /&gt;
B/c I wanted to edit it, but I can't.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Won4tide1|Won4tide1]] 17:41, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Yes, it is.  Please post your suggested changes here first.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:43, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Addition to Rationale ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is another rationale used by proponents of same sex marriage.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Essentially it is as follows:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage exists as both a religiously and legally defined entity in the United States.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage confers certain legal benefits upon those married. Additionaly marriage has social value in that it is used as a signifier of individuals' commitment to one another&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a legal tradition in this country which holds that sexual orientation is not a valid status upon which one may deny legal rights or protections.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The refusal to recognize same sex marriage constitutes such a denial of legal rights and protections. Since those in a same sex marriage are, by definition, homosexual- this constitutes a denial of legal rights and protections based upon sexual orientation.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Refusing to recognize same sex marriages essentially violates long standing legal traditions.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The most logical remedy to this situation is to allow the recognition of same sex marriages.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is also a philosophical justification that same sex marriage does not destroy the institution of marriage in society.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In most religious traditions, marriage exclusively recognizes the sacred bond of love between a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However society has a more general definition of marriage as an institution that recognizes the profound (and one could still say sacred) bond of love existing between two individuals- traditionally a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recognizing same sex marriage recognizes the legitimacy of the bond of love between same sex partners.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However the religious definition of marriage is still unique in that it specifically focuses upon the devine blessing of the union between a man and a woman. Thus this traditional sense of marriage retains its unique character.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that it is important to add these rationales because these are the ones that you are most likely to encounter in the discourse on gay marriage. Those looking for information on the subject would be best served by being able to read the most commonly used rationales.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Adding mores links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The article seems fine at this point, but it could use some more links to other Conservapedia articles after the introduction. I thought it was a little odd that editing was disabled in this article, or else I would have added the links myself.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this marriage in inverted commas (quotes)? And why does it say that the purpose of same-sex marriage is to &amp;quot;destroy the sanctity of marriage&amp;quot;? In what doctrine supporting same sex marriage is that said?&lt;br /&gt;
:I think they are saying that that is liberals' true purpose (intention), even if the people supporting same-sex marriage don't actually say it and openly admit it. --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 16:50, 21 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Supporting Gay Marriage==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By and large proponents of Gay Marriage only support removing the states role in prohibiting marriage; they still cannot force religious institutions to marry homosexuals. In other words, even if the Government deemed gay marriage to be ok, the religious institutions would still have all the power. After all, marriage is a union between a man and a woman under God - Why should the State have its neck involved in that? [[User:Graham|Graham]] 15:49, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I agree with you here, Graham.  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|şŷŝôρ-₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|Ṣρёаќǃ]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:27, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*From what I know the proponents of gay Marriage do ''not'' seek to force religion to do ''anything'', and while religious practices may change in the long run just as society changes... In my mind an alternative to gay marriage, a ''better'' alternative (Also since the United States separates church from state and marriage is religious)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Would be civil unions for ANY arrangement, i.e. MM,FF,MF, and make marriage a religious ceremony. Thus any two people could have the legal benefits of marriage, but under legal (state) terminology while if two people want to get married. The local Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam can do that and discriminate in who they partner up. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All these people want is to be happy, part of that is mutual trust and security, and that comes from Civil Unions, Marriage, whatever you want to call it. But seriously, this would work to keep marriage 'sacred' while Homosexuals could unionize with their partner. [[User:Nateland|Nateland]] 19:05, 29 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Unitarian church, among others, performs same sex weddings.[[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 17:05, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't get it. People can be friends, with mutual trust and all that. I can even give my unmarried fried a [[power of attorney]] to handle things like me being in a coma and needing decisions about medical care. What does marriage have to do with &amp;quot;legal privileges for adults&amp;quot;? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:10, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This sentence is gramatically wrong... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is also referred to as &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|gay]] marriage&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|homosexual]] marriage&amp;quot;, is the official certification in jurisdictions that allow a union between two people of the same sex.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and since I just got yelled at, maybe someone else can fix it. [[User:PaulH|PaulH]] 00:25, 28 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tremendous pressure... needs revision==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;Combined with hate speech rules and hate crime laws, a government certification of &amp;quot;same-sex marriage&amp;quot; will place tremendous pressure on people who criticize homosexuality, oppose the gay agenda, or believe in the sanctity of marriage.[Citation Needed] &amp;quot;How do you know we're not married?&amp;quot; would be the simplest of rejoinders. Or, &amp;quot;How dare you criticize my spouse!&amp;quot; (see fighting words).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Same-sex marriage is already legal in Massachusetts and in several other countries, so if this assertion of &amp;quot;tremendous pressure&amp;quot; is true, it should be easy to find cite-able examples of it. I've had no luck thus far, so perhaps someone else should try... if not, we'll have to remove this section, because the article is seriously weakened by assertions we can't justify. Also, we need a working definition of the sanctity of marriage -- I'm sure that many people, churches, groups, etc. consider same-sex marriage perfectly sanctified, so we need to be more specific. I'm removing the language for now, and please, if you put it back in, clarify what is meant by 'sanctity.' Also, the 'fighting words' link appears to be dead, so I'm removing it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers!&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Mermaid|Gabe]] 14:58, 13 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sauce for you.==&lt;br /&gt;
For the homosexual violence statement in the box beneath the spiffy graphic on the upper-right corner of the page: [http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=5a6dc0ec-3807-4f5c-a5ad-c50855986682&amp;amp;k=55181&amp;amp;p=2] [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 19:04, 16 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That article also says that common law relationships (IE live-in but not formally married) are 5 times more likely to experience violence and is the only category seeing growth in violence. Thus, allowing gay marriage would, statistically speaking, reduce domestic violence among homosexual couples. This article actually supports gay marriage from a statistical standpoint....[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 19:28 16, January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yeah... But let's ignore the facts. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:11, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::What facts? [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::What the study shows. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:45, 24 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Non sequitur. It isn't saying that abusive people who get married will suddenly stop being abusive, which seems to be your argument. A more logical conclusion is that abusive people are less likely to get married in the first place. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Move?==&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously, that would be a good idea. It's called same sex marriage throughout the article, why isn't it titled correctly? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 22:13, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, no? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:52, 10 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A counterfeit counterfeit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The following is unintentionally amusing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family refers to the phrase same-sex 'marriage,' with quotation&lt;br /&gt;
 marks around the word marriage, to call attention to his belief that marriage—civil as&lt;br /&gt;
 well as religious—is intrinsically a union between a man and a woman, and that he therefore&lt;br /&gt;
 believes that same-sex unions are &amp;quot;counterfeits.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why did the author put quotation marks around the word counterfeits?  Is it to call attention to his belief that &amp;quot;Dr.&amp;quot; Dobson's views on counterfeits are themselves counterfeit?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:23, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see what you're saying, but I think that's just there to show that it's his words, not Conservapedia's. That's something you do with all quotes, agqain, just to show that it's his word(s). --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 13:34, 19 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graphic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even if the claim beneath the graphic is true: 1) violence is not a defining characteristic of homosexual marriage--therefore the graphic shouldn't be so prominently displayed here; and 2) the purported cycle of violence is not specific to homosexual relationships--therefore it is inappropriate in an article specifically dedicated to homosexual marriage. [[User:Dadsnagem2|Dadsnagem2]] 16:09, 25 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I was unaware that &amp;quot;homosexual marriage&amp;quot; had '''any''' defining characteristics. It's only a counterfeit, a sham aimed at destroying real marriage. This article is not &amp;quot;dedicated&amp;quot; to homosexual marriage; rather, it exposed the counterfeiting of marriage which [[gay rights]] activists are using to destroy marriage. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We have no obligation here to respect sin - don't even try that line of argument. Homosexuality is sinful - and it makes people miserable. Why should we respect it? Do your &amp;quot;respect&amp;quot; the &amp;quot;choice&amp;quot; of adults to have sex with children? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:13, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If homosexual marriage is legal somewhere, does it not therefore exist? I fail to see how the argument of respect (which somewhat disingenuously equates homosexuality and pedophilia) has anything to do with whether it exists or not. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 15:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Laws permitting this sham are on the books in various places. But giving one thing the same name as another thing doesn't validate it. Once again, the article is not about homosexuals &amp;quot;marrying&amp;quot; - or should not be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It should be about the laws and their purpose. It should illuminate the goals of the [[gay rights movement]] and compare their reasoning with the reality of their purpose, as well as the effect those laws are having. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The pathetic attempt to gain love from a sexual partner of the some gender is at the root of this. As [[Richard Cohen]] pointed out - drawing of course on the work of better-educated scientists like Socarides - it's a [[same-sex attachment disorder]]. And by the way, voting [[homosexuality]] out of the manual of psychiatric disorders doesn't change the fact that it's a disorder and a perversion. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Legalizing sin and craziness doesn't make it good, any more than calling spoiled food wholesome. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:11, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's really sad to see people like Ed be so bigoted.  I take comfort in the fact that by the end of my lifetime, gays will have equal rights.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=478024</id>
		<title>Talk:Same-sex marriage</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=478024"/>
		<updated>2008-06-19T17:38:26Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: New topic: Adding mores links&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Talk:Same-sex marriage/pov }}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this&amp;quot; is completly wrong==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage is good. &lt;br /&gt;
No one can criticize what is good. &lt;br /&gt;
A same-sex union, defined as marriage, is good. &lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, no one can criticize same-sex unions.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ''not'' the Liberal rationale for legalizing gay marriage, if that is going to remain there there should be at least a few sources as to which Leberal said that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''actual'' liberal rational:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Marriage, like '''all''' institutions of the law, should not be defined by ''one'' or ''any'' specefic religion, or religion all together.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The fact that the legallity of Gay marriage is the debate proves its a matter of law, automatically disqualifing any given religions say on it. ''See also: [[seperation of church and state]]''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Atheists can and do get married, further proof it isn't a religious establishment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* A homosexuals person's life has nothing to do with ''yours'', and because homosexuallity does not violate any human rights, ''you'' should not have the right to tell them they cannot get married.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I realize this is conservapedia and you guys would rather have untruthful things that make you sound right, but reality is better than ''sounding'' right if you ask me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bias==&lt;br /&gt;
I do not feel the article is from a neutral point of view. This article seems to be obviously against gay marriage. I also propose that the statistics for spousal abuse in heterosexual relationships are put up beside the homosexual statistics for a comparison. I personally believe not allowing homosexual marriage is not allowing equal freedoms for all people. Also I do not think the reason for not allowing gay marriage should be the bible, as not only should there be a complete separation between church and state, but Athiests and Agnostics are not stopped from getting married, neither should homosexuals.[[User:Strata|Strata]] 23:40, 18 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree completely that there is bias here. It's one thing to be against same-sex marriage, but it's ridiculous to insinuate that same-sex marriage as an attack on heterosexual marriage. [[User:Forthewin827|Forthewin827]] 15:22, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is page protected?==&lt;br /&gt;
B/c I wanted to edit it, but I can't.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Won4tide1|Won4tide1]] 17:41, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Yes, it is.  Please post your suggested changes here first.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:43, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Addition to Rationale ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is another rationale used by proponents of same sex marriage.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Essentially it is as follows:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage exists as both a religiously and legally defined entity in the United States.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage confers certain legal benefits upon those married. Additionaly marriage has social value in that it is used as a signifier of individuals' commitment to one another&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a legal tradition in this country which holds that sexual orientation is not a valid status upon which one may deny legal rights or protections.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The refusal to recognize same sex marriage constitutes such a denial of legal rights and protections. Since those in a same sex marriage are, by definition, homosexual- this constitutes a denial of legal rights and protections based upon sexual orientation.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Refusing to recognize same sex marriages essentially violates long standing legal traditions.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The most logical remedy to this situation is to allow the recognition of same sex marriages.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is also a philosophical justification that same sex marriage does not destroy the institution of marriage in society.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In most religious traditions, marriage exclusively recognizes the sacred bond of love between a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However society has a more general definition of marriage as an institution that recognizes the profound (and one could still say sacred) bond of love existing between two individuals- traditionally a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recognizing same sex marriage recognizes the legitimacy of the bond of love between same sex partners.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However the religious definition of marriage is still unique in that it specifically focuses upon the devine blessing of the union between a man and a woman. Thus this traditional sense of marriage retains its unique character.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that it is important to add these rationales because these are the ones that you are most likely to encounter in the discourse on gay marriage. Those looking for information on the subject would be best served by being able to read the most commonly used rationales.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Adding mores links ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The article seems fine at this point, but it could use some more links to other Conservapedia articles after the introduction. I thought it was a little odd that editing was disabled in this article, or else I would have added the links myself.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this marriage in inverted commas (quotes)? And why does it say that the purpose of same-sex marriage is to &amp;quot;destroy the sanctity of marriage&amp;quot;? In what doctrine supporting same sex marriage is that said?&lt;br /&gt;
:I think they are saying that that is liberals' true purpose, even if they don't actually say it and openly admit it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Supporting Gay Marriage==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By and large proponents of Gay Marriage only support removing the states role in prohibiting marriage; they still cannot force religious institutions to marry homosexuals. In other words, even if the Government deemed gay marriage to be ok, the religious institutions would still have all the power. After all, marriage is a union between a man and a woman under God - Why should the State have its neck involved in that? [[User:Graham|Graham]] 15:49, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I agree with you here, Graham.  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|şŷŝôρ-₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|Ṣρёаќǃ]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:27, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*From what I know the proponents of gay Marriage do ''not'' seek to force religion to do ''anything'', and while religious practices may change in the long run just as society changes... In my mind an alternative to gay marriage, a ''better'' alternative (Also since the United States separates church from state and marriage is religious)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Would be civil unions for ANY arrangement, i.e. MM,FF,MF, and make marriage a religious ceremony. Thus any two people could have the legal benefits of marriage, but under legal (state) terminology while if two people want to get married. The local Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam can do that and discriminate in who they partner up. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All these people want is to be happy, part of that is mutual trust and security, and that comes from Civil Unions, Marriage, whatever you want to call it. But seriously, this would work to keep marriage 'sacred' while Homosexuals could unionize with their partner. [[User:Nateland|Nateland]] 19:05, 29 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Unitarian church, among others, performs same sex weddings.[[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 17:05, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't get it. People can be friends, with mutual trust and all that. I can even give my unmarried fried a [[power of attorney]] to handle things like me being in a coma and needing decisions about medical care. What does marriage have to do with &amp;quot;legal privileges for adults&amp;quot;? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:10, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This sentence is gramatically wrong... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is also referred to as &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|gay]] marriage&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|homosexual]] marriage&amp;quot;, is the official certification in jurisdictions that allow a union between two people of the same sex.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and since I just got yelled at, maybe someone else can fix it. [[User:PaulH|PaulH]] 00:25, 28 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tremendous pressure... needs revision==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;Combined with hate speech rules and hate crime laws, a government certification of &amp;quot;same-sex marriage&amp;quot; will place tremendous pressure on people who criticize homosexuality, oppose the gay agenda, or believe in the sanctity of marriage.[Citation Needed] &amp;quot;How do you know we're not married?&amp;quot; would be the simplest of rejoinders. Or, &amp;quot;How dare you criticize my spouse!&amp;quot; (see fighting words).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Same-sex marriage is already legal in Massachusetts and in several other countries, so if this assertion of &amp;quot;tremendous pressure&amp;quot; is true, it should be easy to find cite-able examples of it. I've had no luck thus far, so perhaps someone else should try... if not, we'll have to remove this section, because the article is seriously weakened by assertions we can't justify. Also, we need a working definition of the sanctity of marriage -- I'm sure that many people, churches, groups, etc. consider same-sex marriage perfectly sanctified, so we need to be more specific. I'm removing the language for now, and please, if you put it back in, clarify what is meant by 'sanctity.' Also, the 'fighting words' link appears to be dead, so I'm removing it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers!&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Mermaid|Gabe]] 14:58, 13 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sauce for you.==&lt;br /&gt;
For the homosexual violence statement in the box beneath the spiffy graphic on the upper-right corner of the page: [http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=5a6dc0ec-3807-4f5c-a5ad-c50855986682&amp;amp;k=55181&amp;amp;p=2] [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 19:04, 16 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That article also says that common law relationships (IE live-in but not formally married) are 5 times more likely to experience violence and is the only category seeing growth in violence. Thus, allowing gay marriage would, statistically speaking, reduce domestic violence among homosexual couples. This article actually supports gay marriage from a statistical standpoint....[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 19:28 16, January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yeah... But let's ignore the facts. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:11, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::What facts? [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::What the study shows. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:45, 24 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Non sequitur. It isn't saying that abusive people who get married will suddenly stop being abusive, which seems to be your argument. A more logical conclusion is that abusive people are less likely to get married in the first place. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Move?==&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously, that would be a good idea. It's called same sex marriage throughout the article, why isn't it titled correctly? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 22:13, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, no? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:52, 10 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A counterfeit counterfeit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The following is unintentionally amusing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family refers to the phrase same-sex 'marriage,' with quotation&lt;br /&gt;
 marks around the word marriage, to call attention to his belief that marriage—civil as&lt;br /&gt;
 well as religious—is intrinsically a union between a man and a woman, and that he therefore&lt;br /&gt;
 believes that same-sex unions are &amp;quot;counterfeits.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why did the author put quotation marks around the word counterfeits?  Is it to call attention to his belief that &amp;quot;Dr.&amp;quot; Dobson's views on counterfeits are themselves counterfeit?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:23, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see what you're saying, but I think that's just there to show that it's his words, not Conservapedia's. That's something you do with all quotes, agqain, just to show that it's his word(s). --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 13:34, 19 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graphic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even if the claim beneath the graphic is true: 1) violence is not a defining characteristic of homosexual marriage--therefore the graphic shouldn't be so prominently displayed here; and 2) the purported cycle of violence is not specific to homosexual relationships--therefore it is inappropriate in an article specifically dedicated to homosexual marriage. [[User:Dadsnagem2|Dadsnagem2]] 16:09, 25 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I was unaware that &amp;quot;homosexual marriage&amp;quot; had '''any''' defining characteristics. It's only a counterfeit, a sham aimed at destroying real marriage. This article is not &amp;quot;dedicated&amp;quot; to homosexual marriage; rather, it exposed the counterfeiting of marriage which [[gay rights]] activists are using to destroy marriage. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We have no obligation here to respect sin - don't even try that line of argument. Homosexuality is sinful - and it makes people miserable. Why should we respect it? Do your &amp;quot;respect&amp;quot; the &amp;quot;choice&amp;quot; of adults to have sex with children? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:13, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If homosexual marriage is legal somewhere, does it not therefore exist? I fail to see how the argument of respect (which somewhat disingenuously equates homosexuality and pedophilia) has anything to do with whether it exists or not. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 15:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Laws permitting this sham are on the books in various places. But giving one thing the same name as another thing doesn't validate it. Once again, the article is not about homosexuals &amp;quot;marrying&amp;quot; - or should not be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It should be about the laws and their purpose. It should illuminate the goals of the [[gay rights movement]] and compare their reasoning with the reality of their purpose, as well as the effect those laws are having. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The pathetic attempt to gain love from a sexual partner of the some gender is at the root of this. As [[Richard Cohen]] pointed out - drawing of course on the work of better-educated scientists like Socarides - it's a [[same-sex attachment disorder]]. And by the way, voting [[homosexuality]] out of the manual of psychiatric disorders doesn't change the fact that it's a disorder and a perversion. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Legalizing sin and craziness doesn't make it good, any more than calling spoiled food wholesome. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:11, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's really sad to see people like Ed be so bigoted.  I take comfort in the fact that by the end of my lifetime, gays will have equal rights.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=478020</id>
		<title>Talk:Same-sex marriage</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=478020"/>
		<updated>2008-06-19T17:34:10Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* A counterfeit counterfeit */ Dammit...I forgot to sign my post. :p&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Talk:Same-sex marriage/pov }}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this&amp;quot; is completly wrong==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage is good. &lt;br /&gt;
No one can criticize what is good. &lt;br /&gt;
A same-sex union, defined as marriage, is good. &lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, no one can criticize same-sex unions.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ''not'' the Liberal rationale for legalizing gay marriage, if that is going to remain there there should be at least a few sources as to which Leberal said that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''actual'' liberal rational:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Marriage, like '''all''' institutions of the law, should not be defined by ''one'' or ''any'' specefic religion, or religion all together.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The fact that the legallity of Gay marriage is the debate proves its a matter of law, automatically disqualifing any given religions say on it. ''See also: [[seperation of church and state]]''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Atheists can and do get married, further proof it isn't a religious establishment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* A homosexuals person's life has nothing to do with ''yours'', and because homosexuallity does not violate any human rights, ''you'' should not have the right to tell them they cannot get married.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I realize this is conservapedia and you guys would rather have untruthful things that make you sound right, but reality is better than ''sounding'' right if you ask me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bias==&lt;br /&gt;
I do not feel the article is from a neutral point of view. This article seems to be obviously against gay marriage. I also propose that the statistics for spousal abuse in heterosexual relationships are put up beside the homosexual statistics for a comparison. I personally believe not allowing homosexual marriage is not allowing equal freedoms for all people. Also I do not think the reason for not allowing gay marriage should be the bible, as not only should there be a complete separation between church and state, but Athiests and Agnostics are not stopped from getting married, neither should homosexuals.[[User:Strata|Strata]] 23:40, 18 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree completely that there is bias here. It's one thing to be against same-sex marriage, but it's ridiculous to insinuate that same-sex marriage as an attack on heterosexual marriage. [[User:Forthewin827|Forthewin827]] 15:22, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is page protected?==&lt;br /&gt;
B/c I wanted to edit it, but I can't.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Won4tide1|Won4tide1]] 17:41, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Yes, it is.  Please post your suggested changes here first.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:43, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Addition to Rationale ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is another rationale used by proponents of same sex marriage.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Essentially it is as follows:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage exists as both a religiously and legally defined entity in the United States.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage confers certain legal benefits upon those married. Additionaly marriage has social value in that it is used as a signifier of individuals' commitment to one another&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a legal tradition in this country which holds that sexual orientation is not a valid status upon which one may deny legal rights or protections.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The refusal to recognize same sex marriage constitutes such a denial of legal rights and protections. Since those in a same sex marriage are, by definition, homosexual- this constitutes a denial of legal rights and protections based upon sexual orientation.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Refusing to recognize same sex marriages essentially violates long standing legal traditions.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The most logical remedy to this situation is to allow the recognition of same sex marriages.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is also a philosophical justification that same sex marriage does not destroy the institution of marriage in society.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In most religious traditions, marriage exclusively recognizes the sacred bond of love between a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However society has a more general definition of marriage as an institution that recognizes the profound (and one could still say sacred) bond of love existing between two individuals- traditionally a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recognizing same sex marriage recognizes the legitimacy of the bond of love between same sex partners.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However the religious definition of marriage is still unique in that it specifically focuses upon the devine blessing of the union between a man and a woman. Thus this traditional sense of marriage retains its unique character.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that it is important to add these rationales because these are the ones that you are most likely to encounter in the discourse on gay marriage. Those looking for information on the subject would be best served by being able to read the most commonly used rationales.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this marriage in inverted commas (quotes)? And why does it say that the purpose of same-sex marriage is to &amp;quot;destroy the sanctity of marriage&amp;quot;? In what doctrine supporting same sex marriage is that said?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Supporting Gay Marriage==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By and large proponents of Gay Marriage only support removing the states role in prohibiting marriage; they still cannot force religious institutions to marry homosexuals. In other words, even if the Government deemed gay marriage to be ok, the religious institutions would still have all the power. After all, marriage is a union between a man and a woman under God - Why should the State have its neck involved in that? [[User:Graham|Graham]] 15:49, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I agree with you here, Graham.  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|şŷŝôρ-₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|Ṣρёаќǃ]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:27, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*From what I know the proponents of gay Marriage do ''not'' seek to force religion to do ''anything'', and while religious practices may change in the long run just as society changes... In my mind an alternative to gay marriage, a ''better'' alternative (Also since the United States separates church from state and marriage is religious)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Would be civil unions for ANY arrangement, i.e. MM,FF,MF, and make marriage a religious ceremony. Thus any two people could have the legal benefits of marriage, but under legal (state) terminology while if two people want to get married. The local Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam can do that and discriminate in who they partner up. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All these people want is to be happy, part of that is mutual trust and security, and that comes from Civil Unions, Marriage, whatever you want to call it. But seriously, this would work to keep marriage 'sacred' while Homosexuals could unionize with their partner. [[User:Nateland|Nateland]] 19:05, 29 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Unitarian church, among others, performs same sex weddings.[[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 17:05, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't get it. People can be friends, with mutual trust and all that. I can even give my unmarried fried a [[power of attorney]] to handle things like me being in a coma and needing decisions about medical care. What does marriage have to do with &amp;quot;legal privileges for adults&amp;quot;? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:10, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This sentence is gramatically wrong... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is also referred to as &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|gay]] marriage&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|homosexual]] marriage&amp;quot;, is the official certification in jurisdictions that allow a union between two people of the same sex.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and since I just got yelled at, maybe someone else can fix it. [[User:PaulH|PaulH]] 00:25, 28 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tremendous pressure... needs revision==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;Combined with hate speech rules and hate crime laws, a government certification of &amp;quot;same-sex marriage&amp;quot; will place tremendous pressure on people who criticize homosexuality, oppose the gay agenda, or believe in the sanctity of marriage.[Citation Needed] &amp;quot;How do you know we're not married?&amp;quot; would be the simplest of rejoinders. Or, &amp;quot;How dare you criticize my spouse!&amp;quot; (see fighting words).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Same-sex marriage is already legal in Massachusetts and in several other countries, so if this assertion of &amp;quot;tremendous pressure&amp;quot; is true, it should be easy to find cite-able examples of it. I've had no luck thus far, so perhaps someone else should try... if not, we'll have to remove this section, because the article is seriously weakened by assertions we can't justify. Also, we need a working definition of the sanctity of marriage -- I'm sure that many people, churches, groups, etc. consider same-sex marriage perfectly sanctified, so we need to be more specific. I'm removing the language for now, and please, if you put it back in, clarify what is meant by 'sanctity.' Also, the 'fighting words' link appears to be dead, so I'm removing it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers!&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Mermaid|Gabe]] 14:58, 13 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sauce for you.==&lt;br /&gt;
For the homosexual violence statement in the box beneath the spiffy graphic on the upper-right corner of the page: [http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=5a6dc0ec-3807-4f5c-a5ad-c50855986682&amp;amp;k=55181&amp;amp;p=2] [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 19:04, 16 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That article also says that common law relationships (IE live-in but not formally married) are 5 times more likely to experience violence and is the only category seeing growth in violence. Thus, allowing gay marriage would, statistically speaking, reduce domestic violence among homosexual couples. This article actually supports gay marriage from a statistical standpoint....[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 19:28 16, January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yeah... But let's ignore the facts. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:11, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::What facts? [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::What the study shows. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:45, 24 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Non sequitur. It isn't saying that abusive people who get married will suddenly stop being abusive, which seems to be your argument. A more logical conclusion is that abusive people are less likely to get married in the first place. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Move?==&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously, that would be a good idea. It's called same sex marriage throughout the article, why isn't it titled correctly? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 22:13, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, no? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:52, 10 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A counterfeit counterfeit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The following is unintentionally amusing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family refers to the phrase same-sex 'marriage,' with quotation&lt;br /&gt;
 marks around the word marriage, to call attention to his belief that marriage—civil as&lt;br /&gt;
 well as religious—is intrinsically a union between a man and a woman, and that he therefore&lt;br /&gt;
 believes that same-sex unions are &amp;quot;counterfeits.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why did the author put quotation marks around the word counterfeits?  Is it to call attention to his belief that &amp;quot;Dr.&amp;quot; Dobson's views on counterfeits are themselves counterfeit?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:23, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see what you're saying, but I think that's just there to show that it's his words, not Conservapedia's. That's something you do with all quotes, agqain, just to show that it's his word(s). --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 13:34, 19 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graphic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even if the claim beneath the graphic is true: 1) violence is not a defining characteristic of homosexual marriage--therefore the graphic shouldn't be so prominently displayed here; and 2) the purported cycle of violence is not specific to homosexual relationships--therefore it is inappropriate in an article specifically dedicated to homosexual marriage. [[User:Dadsnagem2|Dadsnagem2]] 16:09, 25 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I was unaware that &amp;quot;homosexual marriage&amp;quot; had '''any''' defining characteristics. It's only a counterfeit, a sham aimed at destroying real marriage. This article is not &amp;quot;dedicated&amp;quot; to homosexual marriage; rather, it exposed the counterfeiting of marriage which [[gay rights]] activists are using to destroy marriage. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We have no obligation here to respect sin - don't even try that line of argument. Homosexuality is sinful - and it makes people miserable. Why should we respect it? Do your &amp;quot;respect&amp;quot; the &amp;quot;choice&amp;quot; of adults to have sex with children? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:13, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If homosexual marriage is legal somewhere, does it not therefore exist? I fail to see how the argument of respect (which somewhat disingenuously equates homosexuality and pedophilia) has anything to do with whether it exists or not. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 15:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Laws permitting this sham are on the books in various places. But giving one thing the same name as another thing doesn't validate it. Once again, the article is not about homosexuals &amp;quot;marrying&amp;quot; - or should not be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It should be about the laws and their purpose. It should illuminate the goals of the [[gay rights movement]] and compare their reasoning with the reality of their purpose, as well as the effect those laws are having. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The pathetic attempt to gain love from a sexual partner of the some gender is at the root of this. As [[Richard Cohen]] pointed out - drawing of course on the work of better-educated scientists like Socarides - it's a [[same-sex attachment disorder]]. And by the way, voting [[homosexuality]] out of the manual of psychiatric disorders doesn't change the fact that it's a disorder and a perversion. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Legalizing sin and craziness doesn't make it good, any more than calling spoiled food wholesome. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:11, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's really sad to see people like Ed be so bigoted.  I take comfort in the fact that by the end of my lifetime, gays will have equal rights.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=478019</id>
		<title>Talk:Same-sex marriage</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Same-sex_marriage&amp;diff=478019"/>
		<updated>2008-06-19T17:33:37Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* A counterfeit counterfeit */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Talk:Same-sex marriage/pov }}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this&amp;quot; is completly wrong==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The rationale goes like this: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage is good. &lt;br /&gt;
No one can criticize what is good. &lt;br /&gt;
A same-sex union, defined as marriage, is good. &lt;br /&gt;
Therefore, no one can criticize same-sex unions.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That is ''not'' the Liberal rationale for legalizing gay marriage, if that is going to remain there there should be at least a few sources as to which Leberal said that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The ''actual'' liberal rational:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Marriage, like '''all''' institutions of the law, should not be defined by ''one'' or ''any'' specefic religion, or religion all together.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The fact that the legallity of Gay marriage is the debate proves its a matter of law, automatically disqualifing any given religions say on it. ''See also: [[seperation of church and state]]''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Atheists can and do get married, further proof it isn't a religious establishment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* A homosexuals person's life has nothing to do with ''yours'', and because homosexuallity does not violate any human rights, ''you'' should not have the right to tell them they cannot get married.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I realize this is conservapedia and you guys would rather have untruthful things that make you sound right, but reality is better than ''sounding'' right if you ask me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Bias==&lt;br /&gt;
I do not feel the article is from a neutral point of view. This article seems to be obviously against gay marriage. I also propose that the statistics for spousal abuse in heterosexual relationships are put up beside the homosexual statistics for a comparison. I personally believe not allowing homosexual marriage is not allowing equal freedoms for all people. Also I do not think the reason for not allowing gay marriage should be the bible, as not only should there be a complete separation between church and state, but Athiests and Agnostics are not stopped from getting married, neither should homosexuals.[[User:Strata|Strata]] 23:40, 18 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree completely that there is bias here. It's one thing to be against same-sex marriage, but it's ridiculous to insinuate that same-sex marriage as an attack on heterosexual marriage. [[User:Forthewin827|Forthewin827]] 15:22, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Is page protected?==&lt;br /&gt;
B/c I wanted to edit it, but I can't.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Won4tide1|Won4tide1]] 17:41, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Yes, it is.  Please post your suggested changes here first.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:43, 29 August 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Addition to Rationale ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is another rationale used by proponents of same sex marriage.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Essentially it is as follows:&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage exists as both a religiously and legally defined entity in the United States.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Marriage confers certain legal benefits upon those married. Additionaly marriage has social value in that it is used as a signifier of individuals' commitment to one another&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There is a legal tradition in this country which holds that sexual orientation is not a valid status upon which one may deny legal rights or protections.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The refusal to recognize same sex marriage constitutes such a denial of legal rights and protections. Since those in a same sex marriage are, by definition, homosexual- this constitutes a denial of legal rights and protections based upon sexual orientation.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Refusing to recognize same sex marriages essentially violates long standing legal traditions.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The most logical remedy to this situation is to allow the recognition of same sex marriages.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;big&amp;gt;There is also a philosophical justification that same sex marriage does not destroy the institution of marriage in society.&amp;lt;/big&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In most religious traditions, marriage exclusively recognizes the sacred bond of love between a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However society has a more general definition of marriage as an institution that recognizes the profound (and one could still say sacred) bond of love existing between two individuals- traditionally a man and woman.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Recognizing same sex marriage recognizes the legitimacy of the bond of love between same sex partners.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However the religious definition of marriage is still unique in that it specifically focuses upon the devine blessing of the union between a man and a woman. Thus this traditional sense of marriage retains its unique character.&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think that it is important to add these rationales because these are the ones that you are most likely to encounter in the discourse on gay marriage. Those looking for information on the subject would be best served by being able to read the most commonly used rationales.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== What? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why is this marriage in inverted commas (quotes)? And why does it say that the purpose of same-sex marriage is to &amp;quot;destroy the sanctity of marriage&amp;quot;? In what doctrine supporting same sex marriage is that said?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Supporting Gay Marriage==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By and large proponents of Gay Marriage only support removing the states role in prohibiting marriage; they still cannot force religious institutions to marry homosexuals. In other words, even if the Government deemed gay marriage to be ok, the religious institutions would still have all the power. After all, marriage is a union between a man and a woman under God - Why should the State have its neck involved in that? [[User:Graham|Graham]] 15:49, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I agree with you here, Graham.  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|şŷŝôρ-₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|Ṣρёаќǃ]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:27, 23 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*From what I know the proponents of gay Marriage do ''not'' seek to force religion to do ''anything'', and while religious practices may change in the long run just as society changes... In my mind an alternative to gay marriage, a ''better'' alternative (Also since the United States separates church from state and marriage is religious)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Would be civil unions for ANY arrangement, i.e. MM,FF,MF, and make marriage a religious ceremony. Thus any two people could have the legal benefits of marriage, but under legal (state) terminology while if two people want to get married. The local Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam can do that and discriminate in who they partner up. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
All these people want is to be happy, part of that is mutual trust and security, and that comes from Civil Unions, Marriage, whatever you want to call it. But seriously, this would work to keep marriage 'sacred' while Homosexuals could unionize with their partner. [[User:Nateland|Nateland]] 19:05, 29 September 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Unitarian church, among others, performs same sex weddings.[[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 17:05, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I don't get it. People can be friends, with mutual trust and all that. I can even give my unmarried fried a [[power of attorney]] to handle things like me being in a coma and needing decisions about medical care. What does marriage have to do with &amp;quot;legal privileges for adults&amp;quot;? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:10, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== This sentence is gramatically wrong... ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;It is also referred to as &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|gay]] marriage&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;[[homosexuality|homosexual]] marriage&amp;quot;, is the official certification in jurisdictions that allow a union between two people of the same sex.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and since I just got yelled at, maybe someone else can fix it. [[User:PaulH|PaulH]] 00:25, 28 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Tremendous pressure... needs revision==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;Combined with hate speech rules and hate crime laws, a government certification of &amp;quot;same-sex marriage&amp;quot; will place tremendous pressure on people who criticize homosexuality, oppose the gay agenda, or believe in the sanctity of marriage.[Citation Needed] &amp;quot;How do you know we're not married?&amp;quot; would be the simplest of rejoinders. Or, &amp;quot;How dare you criticize my spouse!&amp;quot; (see fighting words).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Same-sex marriage is already legal in Massachusetts and in several other countries, so if this assertion of &amp;quot;tremendous pressure&amp;quot; is true, it should be easy to find cite-able examples of it. I've had no luck thus far, so perhaps someone else should try... if not, we'll have to remove this section, because the article is seriously weakened by assertions we can't justify. Also, we need a working definition of the sanctity of marriage -- I'm sure that many people, churches, groups, etc. consider same-sex marriage perfectly sanctified, so we need to be more specific. I'm removing the language for now, and please, if you put it back in, clarify what is meant by 'sanctity.' Also, the 'fighting words' link appears to be dead, so I'm removing it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Cheers!&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Mermaid|Gabe]] 14:58, 13 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sauce for you.==&lt;br /&gt;
For the homosexual violence statement in the box beneath the spiffy graphic on the upper-right corner of the page: [http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=5a6dc0ec-3807-4f5c-a5ad-c50855986682&amp;amp;k=55181&amp;amp;p=2] [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 19:04, 16 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That article also says that common law relationships (IE live-in but not formally married) are 5 times more likely to experience violence and is the only category seeing growth in violence. Thus, allowing gay marriage would, statistically speaking, reduce domestic violence among homosexual couples. This article actually supports gay marriage from a statistical standpoint....[[User:Kiss20|Kiss20]] 19:28 16, January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Yeah... But let's ignore the facts. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:11, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::What facts? [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::What the study shows. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:45, 24 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Non sequitur. It isn't saying that abusive people who get married will suddenly stop being abusive, which seems to be your argument. A more logical conclusion is that abusive people are less likely to get married in the first place. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:56, 23 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Move?==&lt;br /&gt;
Seriously, that would be a good idea. It's called same sex marriage throughout the article, why isn't it titled correctly? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 22:13, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:Yes, no? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:52, 10 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== A counterfeit counterfeit ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The following is unintentionally amusing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family refers to the phrase same-sex 'marriage,' with quotation&lt;br /&gt;
 marks around the word marriage, to call attention to his belief that marriage—civil as&lt;br /&gt;
 well as religious—is intrinsically a union between a man and a woman, and that he therefore&lt;br /&gt;
 believes that same-sex unions are &amp;quot;counterfeits.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Why did the author put quotation marks around the word counterfeits?  Is it to call attention to his belief that &amp;quot;Dr.&amp;quot; Dobson's views on counterfeits are themselves counterfeit?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:23, 31 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:I see what you're saying, but I think that's just there to show that it's his words, not Conservapedia's. That's something you do with all quotes, agqain, just to show that it's his word(s).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Graphic ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Even if the claim beneath the graphic is true: 1) violence is not a defining characteristic of homosexual marriage--therefore the graphic shouldn't be so prominently displayed here; and 2) the purported cycle of violence is not specific to homosexual relationships--therefore it is inappropriate in an article specifically dedicated to homosexual marriage. [[User:Dadsnagem2|Dadsnagem2]] 16:09, 25 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I was unaware that &amp;quot;homosexual marriage&amp;quot; had '''any''' defining characteristics. It's only a counterfeit, a sham aimed at destroying real marriage. This article is not &amp;quot;dedicated&amp;quot; to homosexual marriage; rather, it exposed the counterfeiting of marriage which [[gay rights]] activists are using to destroy marriage. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:We have no obligation here to respect sin - don't even try that line of argument. Homosexuality is sinful - and it makes people miserable. Why should we respect it? Do your &amp;quot;respect&amp;quot; the &amp;quot;choice&amp;quot; of adults to have sex with children? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 10:13, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: If homosexual marriage is legal somewhere, does it not therefore exist? I fail to see how the argument of respect (which somewhat disingenuously equates homosexuality and pedophilia) has anything to do with whether it exists or not. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 15:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Laws permitting this sham are on the books in various places. But giving one thing the same name as another thing doesn't validate it. Once again, the article is not about homosexuals &amp;quot;marrying&amp;quot; - or should not be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::It should be about the laws and their purpose. It should illuminate the goals of the [[gay rights movement]] and compare their reasoning with the reality of their purpose, as well as the effect those laws are having. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The pathetic attempt to gain love from a sexual partner of the some gender is at the root of this. As [[Richard Cohen]] pointed out - drawing of course on the work of better-educated scientists like Socarides - it's a [[same-sex attachment disorder]]. And by the way, voting [[homosexuality]] out of the manual of psychiatric disorders doesn't change the fact that it's a disorder and a perversion. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::Legalizing sin and craziness doesn't make it good, any more than calling spoiled food wholesome. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 21:11, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It's really sad to see people like Ed be so bigoted.  I take comfort in the fact that by the end of my lifetime, gays will have equal rights.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474588</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474588"/>
		<updated>2008-06-15T06:21:28Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* Westboro Baptist Church */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Talk:Liberal/Arch1|Archive 1]]|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch2|Archive 2]]&lt;br /&gt;
|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch3|Archive 3]]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!-- =============DO NOT ARCHIVE ANYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE!============================== --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This entry is really quite pathetic. If you're going to lock an entry, at least clean it up first. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 23:49, 11 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree. Someone must put pictures of famous liberal democrats and photoshop horns onto them. That would drive the point home.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Much improved, thankyou. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 20:13, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Sorry to say it, but I have to agree.  I was going to add some content here but of course I can't.  This article is really quite bad, not to mention very incomplete.  It would be better to deal with vandalism manually than to prevent the article (which really is quite important, is it not?) from being developed. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 11:25, 17 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Westboro Baptist Church?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?&lt;br /&gt;
:Why?  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 17:35, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It's because [[Fred Phelps]] is a [[liberal|liberal activist]] (see the discussion on the [[Talk:Fred Phelps|talk page]] for an explanation).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::By the way, it appears the link is broken anyway. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 18:34, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Different definitions of Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just wanted to add a line pointing out that in some countries such as Australia, the term Liberal is actually used to refer to the conservative view.  See the Liberal Party of Australia as an example.  This could be worth pointing out as it will prevent them being tarnished by the comments here aimed towards the left wing type Liberals.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That list of (supposed) liberal positions at the beginning is at best a half-truth.  Many liberals (including me) DO NOT SUPPORT a number of them.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 10:43, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm sorry, but the plural of &amp;quot;antidote&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;antidotes,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;data.&amp;quot; The list stays. [[User:J2xl|J2xl]] 22:00, 30 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Do tell us, J2, what is the plural of 'malapropism'? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:38, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And just what is so wrong about taxpayer-supported government schools?  If it weren't for them, many people, including my parents, wouldn't have been able to get an education.  By the way, does the stance of Aschlafly et al against this mean that they would be willing to voluntarily support the education of children not their own whose parents couldn't afford to?[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 00:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Pathetic Article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The formatting is abysmal, the content laughable. I thought Conservapedia was a serious movement to write articles from a right-wing intelligent viewpoint... but i see it's dominated with weak, stolen political jokes. JOKES in an apparently &amp;quot;informative&amp;quot; article. If this is just an oversight, i retract everything.&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with the comment above and have reinstated it despite someone (I think Karajou's?) deletion of it. However it should have been signed. I think it's Silvanus', but I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Does anyone know a way of adding a signature to someone else's comment? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::IMHO, liberalism is like silly putty, you can make of it whatever you want to.  Like Hillary going for the Christian vote or Kerry for the NRA.  Next they'll be going after the cigarette smoker vote. All else is extraneous. But that is probably too simple a definition.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:19, 19 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well, I certainly agree that the editors are applying that attitude to this article. It's generalised, bigoted and unencyclopedic. Yours is not a humble opinion, it's a pompous and largely unfounded diatribe. This isn't trolling, I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the admins are stonewalling any revision of this article, when it's such an important topic. 'Know thine enemy', at the very least. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 16:07, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We could unlock it and put today's DNC talking points in. Of course then we'd have to revise it tomorrow to say something completely opposite to accomodate tomorrows talking points.  Call this a [[stable version]].  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 16:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Uhhhh, nearly all my edits are gone.  Those edits were made to strengthen the article.  dubweiser.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal Failures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Rush Limbaugh]] had a section in the December 2007 [[Limbaugh Letter]] called &amp;quot;Liberal Failures&amp;quot;. At rushlimbaugh.com, Rush says he got the idea for his article from an article by Jeffrey Lord: [http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters - American Spectator].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush lists several examples of liberal failures under each of these categories:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Economy/Taxation&lt;br /&gt;
*Health Care&lt;br /&gt;
*Law/Criminal Justice&lt;br /&gt;
*Environment&lt;br /&gt;
*Education&lt;br /&gt;
*Immigration&lt;br /&gt;
*Culture&lt;br /&gt;
*National Security&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush says &amp;quot;''Liberalism doesn't work''. It fails, every time it's tried.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nailing the Left - Liberal Failures, [[Rush Limbaugh]], ''The [[Limbaugh Letter]]'', December 2007, pp. 13-15&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jeffrey Lord lists examples of these liberal disasters:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Forced School Busing&lt;br /&gt;
* Welfare&lt;br /&gt;
* Luxury Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Alternative Minimum Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Bringing Peace to Vietnam and Cambodia&lt;br /&gt;
* Free Love&lt;br /&gt;
* Drugs&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;TOO SUM UP: Whether it was education policy, welfare policy, economic policy, foreign policy or social policy, time after time after time what became the guiding lights of modern American liberalism proved to be utter disasters. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters] Jeffrey Lord, ''The American Spectator'', 11/6/2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We could create a new page called [[Liberal Failures]] or incorporate it into one of our existing liberal articles. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 10:41, 9 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Denial of gender differences by liberals==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;denial of inherent gender differences, leading to things such as wanting men and women to have the same jobs in the military (while quietly holding them to different standards)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Should we also note that liberals think women should be able to vote too, even though the conservatives throughout history have fought against women's suffrage? [[User:Alexjohnc3|Alexjohnc3]] 18:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Subsection on liberal rankings of members of congress? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article would benefit from a brief subsection on the rankings of the national journal: http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/index.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The is a very informative page with rankings and voting records of all congress members.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 18:59, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I made the change, feel free to lock the page again.  Thanks --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:26, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Westboro Baptist Church  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see Westboro Baptist Church removed from the list of liberal associations.  The only thing evidence I can see for them being liberal is Fred Phelps's run for office as a Democrat.  In my opinion, this is the same sort of guilt by association, that we accuse Wikipedia of on the Biases of Wikipedia page.  To put it another way, having Westboro Baptist Church in the Liberal section, would be like a liberal site having KKK as a conservative organization simply because David Duke was active in the KKK and ran for office as a Republican.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 20:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Thanks for removing this, Ed! --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:28, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The other, damning evidence is Phelp's supporting Al Gore's run for President, contributing money to him and providing office space to his campaign.  So, aside from Phelp's running as a Democrat, and there are plenty of Democrats who are not liberal, all there is to show him as a liberal is his picture with Al Gore, and those pesky election commission documents and press reports,  showing the contributions and office space donations. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:23, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I disagree that supporting a Democrat automatically makes you a liberal. No &amp;quot;one&amp;quot; issue makes you a liberal, so let's look at the whole person, not just one aspect, in deciding his political ideologies. What other liberal tendencies does he have?   Do we know (or is it known) his current political affiliations? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I respect that disagreement. But I didn't say just being a Democrat makes one liberal, read the post, I clearly say there are lots of Democrats who aren't liberal.  But supporting Gore does make you one!  :P   But I think the reference is fair, inasmuch as the looney far left continues to assert that the evil Phelps is a conservative.  Therefore showing all of his affiliations is the only right thing to do, so the users of this encyclopedia will see all of his many facets, and can decide for themselves what (it) Phelps is. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:22, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It seems that Phelps supported Gore when Gore refused to support gay rights, then turned on Gore when he joined Clinton in promoting gay rights, going so far as to picket the funeral of Gore's father screaming &amp;quot;Your Dad's in Hell!&amp;quot; That doesn't strike me as liberal, just opportunist. Fred Phelps has only one issue that he cares about, which almost makes him apolitical. [[User:RandomishName11|RandomishName11]] 00:50, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree that we should let the users decide for themselves what he is. They can't, however, decide for themselves if we tell them what to think. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:25, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm sorry, but this is sort of absurd. I certainly don't want WBC to be called ''conservative'', but I don't think they're liberal either. That's just kind of silly. I don't care who he supported for president. Any organization as vehemently opposed to the sin of homosexuality as they are cannot be described as &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot;, since liberals won't even admit that homosexuality is a sin in the first place! That's kind of like calling NARTH conservative simply because they are as proud of America and her military as much as conservatives are (which I'm absolutely not saying they are, but I needed something to use as an example). It's just silly. --[[User:GeneralGrievous|GeneralGrievous]] 02:21, 15 June 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Huh? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Wait a minute. So, if the media has a [[liberal bias]], wouldn't reinstating the fairness doctine limit '''liberal''' airtime instead of Conservative airtime? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: Liberals control ''most'' media, and especially newspapers and television.  They don't control talk radio, but want to grab that also and support the phony fairness doctrine for that reason.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::... Wouldn't the fairness doctrine cover all broadcast media? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::A day passes. Silence. It is contradictory to claim that liberals control all media, but equal time only harms conservatives. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; is associated most with the United States politicians and, besides, its meaning is not all that different in other countries.  A qualification is not necessary or helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I suggest that you read the section headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot;.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 21:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.S. It may assist you to take a look at where the Australian Liberal Party are on the political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I assume that I have convinced you.  If I hear no further from you I will proceed to reinsert my edit.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 16:54, 30 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The only one I see that only applies to US liberals is the one about the living Constitution. The rest are correct, though. Perhaps we should put a disclaimer next to this one, and then leave the opening line as &amp;quot;A liberal is...&amp;quot;. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whoops I found a couple more (the ones about the First Amendment and the Fairness Doctrine), however the majority of the qualities are not limited to the US. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Even the issues you cite have analogs in other countries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:37, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::You're probably right. Could we change the wording a bit to reflect that? That way you won't have to keep reverting people. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:25, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::::: I don't the see the need for any changes, and reversion will still be necessary because the [[liberals]] will never be happy with this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::That's probably very true. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Glad we're all getting on so well.  Those silly liberals will never learn.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyhoo, doesn't look like either of you read the section in the article headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot; as I suggested in my post above.  Nor, I assume, did you follow the political compass link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not sure why it is so important to maintain internal inconsistency in this article.  Nor do I understand why it is so important to maintain that the American usage of the word liberal is the only usage of the word in the world today (which it clearly is not as the article itself states).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Any even half sensible explanation would be appreciated.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:43, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:If you want to be taken seriously please keep a civil tone. I'm sorry I didn't see those links; I was primarily responding to the edit war, which was over the statement &amp;quot;a liberal poseses the following qualities&amp;quot;. I messed up, I'm only human. Feel better now? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:20, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: My apologies to you.  I am rather more annoyed with Andy who blocked me for a 90/10 violation (coincidentally while we were disagreeing here and on the talk:Liberal denial page).  I did not realise that you were looking at something else.  We are all only human as you say.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Actaully, upon review, I think you may have been looking in just about the right place.  The edit war was over the inclusion of the phrase &amp;quot;In the United States a Liberal...&amp;quot; at the start of the article.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:31, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: So, should I change it back again?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 17:27, 5 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I'm guessing that wouldn't be a wise idea. I would take a look at [[conservative]], though. Perhaps if you moved the general definition to the front, then it would make more sense to have the specific list refer to only Americans. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== about liberals ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by documented cyclical changes in the earth's climate and more affected by Soccer moms driving SUV's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. You have to believe that the teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make 'The Passion of the Christ' for financial gain only.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice  person.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag queens, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected,and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is somehow in the best interest to the United&lt;br /&gt;
States.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
22. You have to believe that it's okay to give Federal workers the day off on Christmas Day .........but it's not okay to say &amp;quot;Merry Christmas&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Thiudareiks|Thiudareiks]] 06:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:&amp;quot;You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&amp;quot; Speaking as a filthy pinko liberal, this is actually pretty funny. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Cool.  You got one of these for Conservatives, too?  --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:07, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Positive Liberal Contributions To Society ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Are there any? --[[User:RJest|RJest]] 17:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of course there are&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Niccolò Machiavelli (Florence, 1469-1527), best known for his Il Principe was the founder of realist political philosophy, advocated republican government, citizen armies, division of power, protection of personal property, and restraint of government expenditure as being necessary to the liberties of a republic&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Desiderius Erasmus (Netherlands, 1466-1536) was an advocate of the doctrine now known as humanism, critic of entrenched interests, irrationality and superstition. Erasmusian societies formed across Europe, to some extent in response to the turbulence of the Reformation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Hugo Grotius or Hugo de Groot (Netherlands, 1583-1645), laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law, in his book Mare Liberum (Free Seas) formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory and all nations were free to use it for seafaring trade&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Hobbes (England, 1588-1679) theorized that government is the result of individual actions and human traits, and that it was motivated primarily by &amp;quot;interest&amp;quot;, a term which would become crucial in the development of a liberal theory of government and political economy, since it is the foundation of the idea that individuals can be self-governing and self-regulating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Baruch Spinoza (Netherlands, 1632-1677) is in his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus and Tractatus Politicus a proto-liberal defending the value of separation of church and state as well as forms of democracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The notions of John Locke (United Kingdom, 1632-1704) of a &amp;quot;government with the consent of the governed&amp;quot; and man's natural rights—life, liberty, and estate (property) as well on tolerance,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*John Trenchard (United Kingdom, 1662-1723) was co-author, with Thomas Gordon of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Gordon (United Kingdom, 169?-1750) was co-author, with John Trenchard of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Benjamin Franklin (United States, 1706-1790) was an inventor, scientist, writer, entrepreneur, diplomat and statesman. He called for the end of mercantilism while advocating free trade, industrialization, the abolition of slavery, free public libraries, democratic government and national unity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jean-Jacques Rousseau (France, 1712-1778) promulgated the idea that men were naturally free, but had to be educated to live in society. This required a natural liberty and a &amp;quot;national will&amp;quot; which could be directed to improvement of the society. He is famous for the quote &amp;quot;men are born free, but are everywhere in chains&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Should I go on. OK good. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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** Wow... comprehensive, concise and encyclopedic. I propose we incorporate the above comment into the page itself. A new subsection, perhaps - &amp;quot;Liberal contributions to Western thought&amp;quot;? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 22:11, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*I ripped it from Wikipedia, however i thought it was expressed very intelligently and there is much more&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Too bad none of the above are liberals in the modern meaning of the word.  Think [[Benjamin Franklin]] supported &lt;br /&gt;
[[abortion]]???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:39, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, or Abraham Lincoln? (Yes, Honest Abe was a Liberal by the standards of his time, since slavery was the status quo.  A Liberal so despised by half of the population that they were willing to '''commit treason''' rather than put up with him.) --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As for the above statement maybe Benjamin did not support abortion but remember things 50+ years ago were very conservative remember liberal means progress. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:As Robert Anton Wilson has said, you can go from Liberal to Conservative in 25 years without changing a single opinion. --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Citation Request ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It looks like my citation request may have deleted more than a few lines.  How did this happen?  Can it be corrected? --Jimmy 14:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think you might have edited an older version of the page. The line you wanted to add a fact to was not even there in the version prior to your edit. I have reverted it to the version right before yours. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:23, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Richard Dawkins/Barack Obama ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm glad someone added the wikilinks to the last gem added - all it now takes is for someone to click the links, then consult the Talk pages for those articles to see how stupendously, amusingly wrong that entry actually is.  Though to save people the trouble, here it is - Oxford University not only say that Richard Dawkins is, in fact a professor, but actually awarded him a position with the title of the 'Professor of the Public Understanding of Science'[http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/1995-6/supps/2_4408.htm#4Ref].  Barack Obama was a 'Senior Lecturer' at the University of Chicago, and they released a press notice saying,'Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors'[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html].  So, going by the examples listed, 'liberals', in fact, call people 'professors' when...erm...they are. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 10:26, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Well to be fair, Oxford entered the fray after the tempest started, and post-facto seems to have, err, re-arranged its thinking, lol.  Typical [[liberal deceit]]. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:17, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry about leaping in there with the deletion, TK. It just seemed (a) below the belt, since there are plenty of dubious PhD's espousing conservative views, and (b) out of place in a list detailing ideological stances. I still don't see the need for it, I'm afraid. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 21:53, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, Oxford granted Dawkins his professorship in 1996.  The link I provided above demonstrates this.  The 'tempest' (I would actually call it more a 'storm in a teacup') started in 2007, when a certain person here tried to throw doubt on Dawkins' academic credentials in what can only be described, quite frankly, as a blatent ad hominem attack. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 16:32, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Reverts ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could we discuss on the talk page instead of having an edit war? Thanks. In case it's ambiguous, I'm talking about the inclusion of &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:22, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I'm in favour of deleting it, since it's not actually a political stance. What's more, it's an ''ad hominem'' generalisation (I didn't even know such things were possible until I came to Conservapedia... ;-D ) [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:14, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The reason for my removal of said bullet point is firstly that it is not a political belief (which the introductory sentence says is the object of the list), it is an act which some editors think is typical or generally the case with liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
: Secondly, I would entirely disagree with the notion that liberals engage in such an act; I would also entirely disagree that conservatives do, or for that matter any definable section of society. &lt;br /&gt;
: Unless someone can find a reference which shows that a significant percentage of liberals routinely call similarly-minded individuals 'professor' - which they won't - I will believe that the editor that included it either fabricated such information or believes it to be true despite not having studied the debating habits of a large proportion of liberals. All information here should have a reference, particularly if it is likely to be contested, regardless of the effect that it has on the arguments of such editors, whatever their ideology be. If it is impossible to provide a reference, then such information should not be included. &lt;br /&gt;
: I would therefore agree with Underscoreb's comments. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 18:19, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The discussion page (and archives) of Dawkins provides ample proof of what latitude liberals are willing to cut those of like-mind. As well as Andy's thoughts on the matter, and his own conclusion that the included item is accurate. Its inclusion here was suggested by Andy as well. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:23, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Surely we can do better than that, TK - what you seem to be saying is, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to some liberals once, and they said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. The second part of your argument seems to be, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to Andy once, and he said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. Leaving aside the argument of whether those figures have or haven't earned their credentials, this statement is tarring all liberals with the same brush, based on a conversation you witnessed. It's not the most rigorous methodology. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:34, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree with Uderscoreb's reply to TK's comments. TK - your reasoning is very illogical: it relies on the premise that: &amp;quot;if some X have character Y, then it must be a common trait of X to display Y&amp;quot; The influence of the people that agree with your arguments has no effect on the validity of such an argument;  as has been used on the [[Global warming controversy]] article: &amp;quot;In any event, it is important to remember that public opinion does not change the physical reality. Even if 100% of people of both parties believe in anthropogenic climate change, if the reality is that mankind is not responsible, then public opinion to the contrary does not change that fact&amp;quot;. Conservapedia rightly recognises this argument, why does it not stand here? Surely you must agree that generalisation of the kind used to justify inclusion of said liberal trait entirely falls flat on condition of its logical worth; you must do, otherwise dragging 'Andy' into the argument would not be necessary. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 07:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
LOL!  Sounds utterly, almost European in logic, and certainly liberal. Here in America, we have a saying:  &amp;quot;You made your bed. Now lie in it.&amp;quot; Please don't expect the rest of the world to agree with your efforts to hide from plain view your most obvious traits. Perhaps Ed Poor will consider a reading plan for you so that the veil can be lifted from your eyes. &amp;quot;Andy&amp;quot; is a noted expert on liberal apology, and as such, always germain to the discussions here. It is clear you recognize that fact because of your stated aversion it!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:51, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:''European'' logic? Just logic, I reckon. Good old conservative logic. American logic. Ancient Greek logic. Logical logic. BTW, I also agree with Underscoreb. The discussion page on Dawkins proves nothing - even if we accept the premise that Dawkins himself is an evil liberal. You cannot prove a generality by quoting a number of instances. (And you certainly can't prove anything by appealing to authority.) [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 08:07, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Don't be a d***. You know full well that rational thought is not restricted to the laws of [[deduction]]; see also [[induction]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:10, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::TK, nobody needs a veil to hide 'obvious truths' if they are simply illogical. And please do not use ''ad hominem'' arguments (like labelling anything I say 'European') to detract from arguments that you disagree with, and divert attention away from the point of the debate. If I said that &amp;quot;Conservepedia editors use ''ad hominem'' arguments to prove their views&amp;quot;, you would rightly disagree, as I would, because clearly it is not true, despite evidence that some do (right here). Equally, saying that liberals believe in &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is illogical - some might, as might some centrists, some conservatives, some Africans, some women, any polity one can think of - but it is extremely obvious that it is not something that liberals or any polity is defined by more than any other. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:14, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ed Poor - yes I do, but you should know that there are well-justified problems with the validity of induction, particularly where the observed classes are not objects but thoughts, ideologies and polities. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:29, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I believe the phrase you are looking for, EU, is [[Logical_fallacy#Overgeneralization|overgeneralization]]. Also, just as a point of order: all arguments being made here are inductive. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 10:20, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thanks for the term - that is definitely one of the relevant acts. Yes this discussion is inductive, well pointed out =) Over-generalisation is all too common; generalisation is a justified way of inferring information about the whole from that of a part, but it is very easy to wrongly use it in situations where it is impossible to predict the nature of the whole from a part, as is the case in point, and the error used in such analyses as the famously disproved 'all swans are white' case. Over-generalisation can lead to such senseless acts as discrimination, and, as proved by this article, fallacies in the description of disagreeable ideologies. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 10:44, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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May I make a suggestion?  Keep the disputed sentence, but move it over to [[liberal style]].  It fits in very nicely over there.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 17:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree, it's definitely more an example of liberal style than it is a political position, as all the rest of the items on the list are. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:51, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Pragmatically, I support such a move also; despite mine and others' misgivings about its legitimacy, at least it is more appropriate there. --[[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 14:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Pragmatically'' what this encyclopedia needs is less &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;obfuscation&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;, and chipping away by internationalists, of the conservative, American, POV of Conservapedia, to make it read neutral.  Moving something ''Europeans'' and liberals don't agree with, to another article, is censorship. If liberal users disagree with the conservative point of view of CP, they should give up trying to change it, and find a liberal/internationalist encyclopedia to edit, IMO.  If they did, two-thirds of these needless arguments would be eliminated, IMO. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:04, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I think RossC's suggestion is a good one. Not because &amp;quot;calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is not a liberal trait (though no one has yet demonstrated that it is), but because (as a couple of others have said) it isn't a political or quasi-political belief like the other items in the list, and it looks out of place here. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Well, I added it at Andy's suggestion, made on his talk page, as the edit note clearly states,  so the question as to if it belongs ''here'' is pretty moot, I think.  I disagree that Schlafly hasn't demonstrated that fact, 100 times over, on the Dawkins or Obama talk pages.  I do agree that it appears only liberals disagree on that. It is an argument certainly older than CP, between conservatives and liberals, and all the more a bone of contention between Europeans and United States conservatives.  It boils down to a clear disagreement between ''Internationalists'' (and they are primarily liberal) and those of us who support CP, which was founded as a U.S. Christian/Conservative - friendly encyclopedia, to continue to be true to that.  While I wouldn't want to ignore the world as ''Internationalists'' see it, or wish it to be, that outlook is already embraced by Wikipedia, several thousand times larger than CP, so the POV is more than adequately served. So, while wanting to acknowledge what the liberal &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot; is, it cannot, nor should it be, incorporated into CP's articles, other than to point out what those who believe in it think, and why American conservatives think they are wrong.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Some, mostly from other countries, while they might be Christians, ''certainly are not United States conservatives'', and even they seek to impose their unique, anti (or contrary to)-U.S. point of view on CP, trying, bit by bit, to remove anything they consider &amp;quot;U.S.-centric&amp;quot;.  They are among those, like the liberals, who seek to fundamentally change the founding precepts of Conservapedia, and turn it towards the so-called &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot;.  While I don't seek to diminish what they believe (they cannot help it, being used to a &amp;quot;Wikipedian World&amp;quot; and not Americans) their role here, editors or admins alike, it seems to me, is either to get on board with CP's point of view, or at least stop the constant arguing that distracts from more content being made, and discouraging conservative editors from doing so. Since the actual practice of &amp;quot;conservatism&amp;quot; outside the United States, is fundamentally different, that puts CP automatically at odds with Europeans and others who might say they are &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; but in actual political practice their philosophy is closer to United States liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::You seem to be confusing censorship with moving something to a different place; you well know that this suggestion is not censorship. Secondly, you seem to be, rather paranoiacally, confusing the legitimate opinion of a sentence's logicality/legitimacy with some form of opinion, which (again with the personal attacks) stems from the idea that just because some here are liberal, not American, internationalist, means that their objections are part of some anti-American, anti-CP, anti-conservative or anti-whatever viewpoint quest to annoy, obfuscate or slow down progress. The reason that I, and a couple of others, object to that sentence is nothing to do with opinion, just logic, and the suggestion to move it to another article is just about appropriateness. A list about conservative positions would not include anything that isn't a position (like professor-calling), same as a list on liberal positions would not. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:30, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''''Personal attacks?''''' On whom?  Liberals in general?  Some particular liberal? I demand an apology!  CP is indeed an American ''conservative'' encyclopedia.  You somehow seem intent on arguing forever, obstructing, until your personal POV  (self-declared as logic) is accepted as the model of rationality. And you somehow mistake sticking to one's principles for paranoia, lol. I see you (not me) have resorted to personal insults, Europeanunion.  Called me paranoid, didn't you?  That is indeed a bit different than making a generalized (but true) statement about liberals and internationalists. Since you are a liberal, all that you think, all of your logic, is colored through that prism. The article was locked, by an Admin, for a reason, and that reason was removal of material conservatives deem appropriate, and suggested by the Owner.  If you don't like it, go to his page and take him to task for daring to be so illogical as to suggest adding it. But remember this isn't a mobocracy. Conservative thought will always prevail here. I hope you enjoy your weekend!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:09, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is clear that we will never see eye-to-eye over this issue, or the nature of each other's arguments. I express my preference for deleting the sentence, but recognise the impossibility of that in this situation. I express my preference that the sentence be moved to a more appropriate article, and hope that this occurs. But I don't think that there's anything more to add to substantiate my views, or to be achieved by further arguing here, so I will leave the discussion, unless someone asks for my opinion on a development. I will instead continue adding information in my field of experience with less controversial articles which are not personal favourites of sysops. Thanks for your hope TK, I hope everyone has a nice day =) [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 11:23, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It's unfortunate that we could not come to an agreement on this matter :( [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:58, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, given the first few posts here, with the item being unilaterally removed without any discussion, ''and Europeanunion calling me a paranoid, and accusing me making personal attacks'', &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;and not apologizing for either statement when asked to&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;; did anyone here really think that was the way to accommodation or agreement? I sense a double standard here, with some people being pretty free at calling posts &amp;quot;trolling&amp;quot; when they don't agree with the POV, and yet allowing others to make personal attacks/name calling, and never saying a word.  That is neither Christian, fair or conservative, is it?  And this from the same people extolling their &amp;quot;logic&amp;quot; and fairness.    --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:41, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was going to concentrate on other things on CP, but I believe your previous post deserves a reply. I did not call you paranoid, but that you &amp;quot;rather paranoiacally&amp;quot; confused an objection based on legitimacy with an opinion based on where I live et cetera - the word paranoia being defined as &amp;quot;suspicion of others that is not based on fact&amp;quot;. The personal attacks were the ''ad hominem'' arguments that you used - the definition of that phrase is &amp;quot;replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument&amp;quot;. I do not apologise for stating that, but I am sorry if you feel it is an injustice (I do not). [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:46, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, even a statement about the thinking of liberals is branded &amp;quot;ad hominem&amp;quot; arguments now, simply because you refuse to accept what liberals think and do?  I will note that an argument isn't a personal attack as you labeled it. And I am sorry, but this is not Wikipedia, so your assertion of some rule that CP doesn't have, nor endorse, is specious. This encyclopedia has hundreds, thousands of entries, cataloging liberal deceit and liberal thinking, and their attempts, like your statement above, to brand any contrary thinking to liberal tenets as an &amp;quot;attack&amp;quot;. As for &amp;quot;paranoia&amp;quot;, well, your own post above clearly demonstrates CP's suspicion of liberals is well-founded. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:06, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Affront ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As someone who doesn't proscribe to any particular political ideology, but would be labeled as a liberal, I'm honestly quite offended by this article. This isn't an encyclopedic entry, it's a systematic assault on liberalism. I understand that it's the opposing viewpoint from the reigning one here, but you have to have some level of integrity. How would you feel if I made a Liberapedia and filled the &amp;quot;Conservative&amp;quot; page with unproven remarks about how your political ideology is based exclusively on greed? You can't claim to be &amp;quot;The Trustworthy Encyclopedia&amp;quot; when you have articles like this. It's just disgusting. You could go ahead and write a section on why liberal viewpoints conflict with yours, but having the entire damned page filled with hate and bigotry is horrible. [[User:Shortcat|Shortcat]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: You didn't cite any specific examples in the entry to support your rant.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:51, 10 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Support of obscenity and pornography as a First Amendment right[4] -&amp;gt; This is simply untrue. Instead of stating a fact (liberals tend to support free speech), you're saying that liberals believe porn is their constitutional right. That's bull.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama). -&amp;gt; What?&lt;br /&gt;
:: Some argue that liberals typically support economic policy similar to that of fascism. [7] -&amp;gt; So liberals are fascists now? That's just plain offensive.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Typo ==&lt;br /&gt;
Implementation is spelled incorrectly in the lead. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 23:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== WBC is a &amp;quot;Liberal Organization&amp;quot;? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I usually refrain from capslocking, but WHAT? The [[Westboro Baptist Church]] is a ''liberal organization''? If the article wasn't protected, I would suspect vandalism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A hate group that condemns homosexuality, Roman Catholics, Muslims and Jews, as well as Swedes, Canadians, Irish, British, Mexicans and Americans is a ''liberal organization''? This smells like [[political identification bias]] to me - a conservative editor doesn't like WBC, so it ''must'' be liberal! --[[User:JBrown|JBrown]] 10:00, 11 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But WBC and Phelps hate the US military, and have made it their primary&lt;br /&gt;
mission to demonstrate and publicize this.  Also, he was inarguably a liberal civil&lt;br /&gt;
rights attorney before he turned to his present fixation.  Perhaps where he's taken&lt;br /&gt;
liberalism even justifies a new appellation...  '''hyperliberal''', anyone? &lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jamesmason|Jamesmason]] 20:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474586</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474586"/>
		<updated>2008-06-15T06:18:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* Westboro Baptist Church */&lt;/p&gt;
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[[Talk:Liberal/Arch1|Archive 1]]|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch2|Archive 2]]&lt;br /&gt;
|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch3|Archive 3]]&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;!-- =============DO NOT ARCHIVE ANYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE!============================== --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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This entry is really quite pathetic. If you're going to lock an entry, at least clean it up first. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 23:49, 11 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree. Someone must put pictures of famous liberal democrats and photoshop horns onto them. That would drive the point home.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Much improved, thankyou. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 20:13, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Sorry to say it, but I have to agree.  I was going to add some content here but of course I can't.  This article is really quite bad, not to mention very incomplete.  It would be better to deal with vandalism manually than to prevent the article (which really is quite important, is it not?) from being developed. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 11:25, 17 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Westboro Baptist Church?&lt;br /&gt;
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That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?&lt;br /&gt;
:Why?  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 17:35, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It's because [[Fred Phelps]] is a [[liberal|liberal activist]] (see the discussion on the [[Talk:Fred Phelps|talk page]] for an explanation).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::By the way, it appears the link is broken anyway. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 18:34, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Different definitions of Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just wanted to add a line pointing out that in some countries such as Australia, the term Liberal is actually used to refer to the conservative view.  See the Liberal Party of Australia as an example.  This could be worth pointing out as it will prevent them being tarnished by the comments here aimed towards the left wing type Liberals.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That list of (supposed) liberal positions at the beginning is at best a half-truth.  Many liberals (including me) DO NOT SUPPORT a number of them.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 10:43, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm sorry, but the plural of &amp;quot;antidote&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;antidotes,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;data.&amp;quot; The list stays. [[User:J2xl|J2xl]] 22:00, 30 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Do tell us, J2, what is the plural of 'malapropism'? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:38, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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And just what is so wrong about taxpayer-supported government schools?  If it weren't for them, many people, including my parents, wouldn't have been able to get an education.  By the way, does the stance of Aschlafly et al against this mean that they would be willing to voluntarily support the education of children not their own whose parents couldn't afford to?[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 00:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Pathetic Article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The formatting is abysmal, the content laughable. I thought Conservapedia was a serious movement to write articles from a right-wing intelligent viewpoint... but i see it's dominated with weak, stolen political jokes. JOKES in an apparently &amp;quot;informative&amp;quot; article. If this is just an oversight, i retract everything.&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with the comment above and have reinstated it despite someone (I think Karajou's?) deletion of it. However it should have been signed. I think it's Silvanus', but I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Does anyone know a way of adding a signature to someone else's comment? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::IMHO, liberalism is like silly putty, you can make of it whatever you want to.  Like Hillary going for the Christian vote or Kerry for the NRA.  Next they'll be going after the cigarette smoker vote. All else is extraneous. But that is probably too simple a definition.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:19, 19 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well, I certainly agree that the editors are applying that attitude to this article. It's generalised, bigoted and unencyclopedic. Yours is not a humble opinion, it's a pompous and largely unfounded diatribe. This isn't trolling, I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the admins are stonewalling any revision of this article, when it's such an important topic. 'Know thine enemy', at the very least. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 16:07, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We could unlock it and put today's DNC talking points in. Of course then we'd have to revise it tomorrow to say something completely opposite to accomodate tomorrows talking points.  Call this a [[stable version]].  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 16:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Uhhhh, nearly all my edits are gone.  Those edits were made to strengthen the article.  dubweiser.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Liberal Failures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Rush Limbaugh]] had a section in the December 2007 [[Limbaugh Letter]] called &amp;quot;Liberal Failures&amp;quot;. At rushlimbaugh.com, Rush says he got the idea for his article from an article by Jeffrey Lord: [http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters - American Spectator].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush lists several examples of liberal failures under each of these categories:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Economy/Taxation&lt;br /&gt;
*Health Care&lt;br /&gt;
*Law/Criminal Justice&lt;br /&gt;
*Environment&lt;br /&gt;
*Education&lt;br /&gt;
*Immigration&lt;br /&gt;
*Culture&lt;br /&gt;
*National Security&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush says &amp;quot;''Liberalism doesn't work''. It fails, every time it's tried.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nailing the Left - Liberal Failures, [[Rush Limbaugh]], ''The [[Limbaugh Letter]]'', December 2007, pp. 13-15&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jeffrey Lord lists examples of these liberal disasters:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Forced School Busing&lt;br /&gt;
* Welfare&lt;br /&gt;
* Luxury Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Alternative Minimum Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Bringing Peace to Vietnam and Cambodia&lt;br /&gt;
* Free Love&lt;br /&gt;
* Drugs&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;TOO SUM UP: Whether it was education policy, welfare policy, economic policy, foreign policy or social policy, time after time after time what became the guiding lights of modern American liberalism proved to be utter disasters. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters] Jeffrey Lord, ''The American Spectator'', 11/6/2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We could create a new page called [[Liberal Failures]] or incorporate it into one of our existing liberal articles. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 10:41, 9 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Denial of gender differences by liberals==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;denial of inherent gender differences, leading to things such as wanting men and women to have the same jobs in the military (while quietly holding them to different standards)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Should we also note that liberals think women should be able to vote too, even though the conservatives throughout history have fought against women's suffrage? [[User:Alexjohnc3|Alexjohnc3]] 18:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Subsection on liberal rankings of members of congress? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article would benefit from a brief subsection on the rankings of the national journal: http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/index.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The is a very informative page with rankings and voting records of all congress members.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 18:59, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I made the change, feel free to lock the page again.  Thanks --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:26, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Westboro Baptist Church  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see Westboro Baptist Church removed from the list of liberal associations.  The only thing evidence I can see for them being liberal is Fred Phelps's run for office as a Democrat.  In my opinion, this is the same sort of guilt by association, that we accuse Wikipedia of on the Biases of Wikipedia page.  To put it another way, having Westboro Baptist Church in the Liberal section, would be like a liberal site having KKK as a conservative organization simply because David Duke was active in the KKK and ran for office as a Republican.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 20:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Thanks for removing this, Ed! --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:28, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The other, damning evidence is Phelp's supporting Al Gore's run for President, contributing money to him and providing office space to his campaign.  So, aside from Phelp's running as a Democrat, and there are plenty of Democrats who are not liberal, all there is to show him as a liberal is his picture with Al Gore, and those pesky election commission documents and press reports,  showing the contributions and office space donations. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:23, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I disagree that supporting a Democrat automatically makes you a liberal. No &amp;quot;one&amp;quot; issue makes you a liberal, so let's look at the whole person, not just one aspect, in deciding his political ideologies. What other liberal tendencies does he have?   Do we know (or is it known) his current political affiliations? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I respect that disagreement. But I didn't say just being a Democrat makes one liberal, read the post, I clearly say there are lots of Democrats who aren't liberal.  But supporting Gore does make you one!  :P   But I think the reference is fair, inasmuch as the looney far left continues to assert that the evil Phelps is a conservative.  Therefore showing all of his affiliations is the only right thing to do, so the users of this encyclopedia will see all of his many facets, and can decide for themselves what (it) Phelps is. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:22, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It seems that Phelps supported Gore when Gore refused to support gay rights, then turned on Gore when he joined Clinton in promoting gay rights, going so far as to picket the funeral of Gore's father screaming &amp;quot;Your Dad's in Hell!&amp;quot; That doesn't strike me as liberal, just opportunist. Fred Phelps has only one issue that he cares about, which almost makes him apolitical. [[User:RandomishName11|RandomishName11]] 00:50, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I agree that we should let the users decide for themselves what he is. They can't, however, decide for themselves if we tell them what to think. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:25, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm sorry, but this is sort of absurd. I certainly don't want WBC to be called ''conservative'', but I don't think they're liberal either. That's just kind of silly. I don't care who he supported for president. Any organization as vehemently opposed to the sin of homosexuality as they are cannot be described as &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot;, since liberals won't even admit that homosexuality is a sin in the first place! That's kind of like calling NARTH conservative simply because they are as proud of America and her military as much as conservatives are (which I'm absolutely not saying they are, but I needed something to use as an example). It's just silly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Huh? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Wait a minute. So, if the media has a [[liberal bias]], wouldn't reinstating the fairness doctine limit '''liberal''' airtime instead of Conservative airtime? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Liberals control ''most'' media, and especially newspapers and television.  They don't control talk radio, but want to grab that also and support the phony fairness doctrine for that reason.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::... Wouldn't the fairness doctrine cover all broadcast media? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::A day passes. Silence. It is contradictory to claim that liberals control all media, but equal time only harms conservatives. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; is associated most with the United States politicians and, besides, its meaning is not all that different in other countries.  A qualification is not necessary or helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I suggest that you read the section headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot;.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 21:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.S. It may assist you to take a look at where the Australian Liberal Party are on the political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I assume that I have convinced you.  If I hear no further from you I will proceed to reinsert my edit.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 16:54, 30 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The only one I see that only applies to US liberals is the one about the living Constitution. The rest are correct, though. Perhaps we should put a disclaimer next to this one, and then leave the opening line as &amp;quot;A liberal is...&amp;quot;. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whoops I found a couple more (the ones about the First Amendment and the Fairness Doctrine), however the majority of the qualities are not limited to the US. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Even the issues you cite have analogs in other countries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:37, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::You're probably right. Could we change the wording a bit to reflect that? That way you won't have to keep reverting people. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:25, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: I don't the see the need for any changes, and reversion will still be necessary because the [[liberals]] will never be happy with this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::That's probably very true. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Glad we're all getting on so well.  Those silly liberals will never learn.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyhoo, doesn't look like either of you read the section in the article headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot; as I suggested in my post above.  Nor, I assume, did you follow the political compass link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not sure why it is so important to maintain internal inconsistency in this article.  Nor do I understand why it is so important to maintain that the American usage of the word liberal is the only usage of the word in the world today (which it clearly is not as the article itself states).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Any even half sensible explanation would be appreciated.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:43, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:If you want to be taken seriously please keep a civil tone. I'm sorry I didn't see those links; I was primarily responding to the edit war, which was over the statement &amp;quot;a liberal poseses the following qualities&amp;quot;. I messed up, I'm only human. Feel better now? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:20, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: My apologies to you.  I am rather more annoyed with Andy who blocked me for a 90/10 violation (coincidentally while we were disagreeing here and on the talk:Liberal denial page).  I did not realise that you were looking at something else.  We are all only human as you say.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Actaully, upon review, I think you may have been looking in just about the right place.  The edit war was over the inclusion of the phrase &amp;quot;In the United States a Liberal...&amp;quot; at the start of the article.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:31, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: So, should I change it back again?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 17:27, 5 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I'm guessing that wouldn't be a wise idea. I would take a look at [[conservative]], though. Perhaps if you moved the general definition to the front, then it would make more sense to have the specific list refer to only Americans. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== about liberals ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.&lt;br /&gt;
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3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by documented cyclical changes in the earth's climate and more affected by Soccer moms driving SUV's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. You have to believe that the teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make 'The Passion of the Christ' for financial gain only.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice  person.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag queens, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected,and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is somehow in the best interest to the United&lt;br /&gt;
States.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
22. You have to believe that it's okay to give Federal workers the day off on Christmas Day .........but it's not okay to say &amp;quot;Merry Christmas&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Thiudareiks|Thiudareiks]] 06:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:&amp;quot;You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&amp;quot; Speaking as a filthy pinko liberal, this is actually pretty funny. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Cool.  You got one of these for Conservatives, too?  --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:07, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Positive Liberal Contributions To Society ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Are there any? --[[User:RJest|RJest]] 17:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Of course there are&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Niccolò Machiavelli (Florence, 1469-1527), best known for his Il Principe was the founder of realist political philosophy, advocated republican government, citizen armies, division of power, protection of personal property, and restraint of government expenditure as being necessary to the liberties of a republic&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Desiderius Erasmus (Netherlands, 1466-1536) was an advocate of the doctrine now known as humanism, critic of entrenched interests, irrationality and superstition. Erasmusian societies formed across Europe, to some extent in response to the turbulence of the Reformation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Hugo Grotius or Hugo de Groot (Netherlands, 1583-1645), laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law, in his book Mare Liberum (Free Seas) formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory and all nations were free to use it for seafaring trade&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Hobbes (England, 1588-1679) theorized that government is the result of individual actions and human traits, and that it was motivated primarily by &amp;quot;interest&amp;quot;, a term which would become crucial in the development of a liberal theory of government and political economy, since it is the foundation of the idea that individuals can be self-governing and self-regulating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Baruch Spinoza (Netherlands, 1632-1677) is in his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus and Tractatus Politicus a proto-liberal defending the value of separation of church and state as well as forms of democracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The notions of John Locke (United Kingdom, 1632-1704) of a &amp;quot;government with the consent of the governed&amp;quot; and man's natural rights—life, liberty, and estate (property) as well on tolerance,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*John Trenchard (United Kingdom, 1662-1723) was co-author, with Thomas Gordon of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Gordon (United Kingdom, 169?-1750) was co-author, with John Trenchard of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Benjamin Franklin (United States, 1706-1790) was an inventor, scientist, writer, entrepreneur, diplomat and statesman. He called for the end of mercantilism while advocating free trade, industrialization, the abolition of slavery, free public libraries, democratic government and national unity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jean-Jacques Rousseau (France, 1712-1778) promulgated the idea that men were naturally free, but had to be educated to live in society. This required a natural liberty and a &amp;quot;national will&amp;quot; which could be directed to improvement of the society. He is famous for the quote &amp;quot;men are born free, but are everywhere in chains&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Should I go on. OK good. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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** Wow... comprehensive, concise and encyclopedic. I propose we incorporate the above comment into the page itself. A new subsection, perhaps - &amp;quot;Liberal contributions to Western thought&amp;quot;? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 22:11, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*I ripped it from Wikipedia, however i thought it was expressed very intelligently and there is much more&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Too bad none of the above are liberals in the modern meaning of the word.  Think [[Benjamin Franklin]] supported &lt;br /&gt;
[[abortion]]???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:39, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, or Abraham Lincoln? (Yes, Honest Abe was a Liberal by the standards of his time, since slavery was the status quo.  A Liberal so despised by half of the population that they were willing to '''commit treason''' rather than put up with him.) --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As for the above statement maybe Benjamin did not support abortion but remember things 50+ years ago were very conservative remember liberal means progress. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:As Robert Anton Wilson has said, you can go from Liberal to Conservative in 25 years without changing a single opinion. --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Citation Request ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It looks like my citation request may have deleted more than a few lines.  How did this happen?  Can it be corrected? --Jimmy 14:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think you might have edited an older version of the page. The line you wanted to add a fact to was not even there in the version prior to your edit. I have reverted it to the version right before yours. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:23, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Richard Dawkins/Barack Obama ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm glad someone added the wikilinks to the last gem added - all it now takes is for someone to click the links, then consult the Talk pages for those articles to see how stupendously, amusingly wrong that entry actually is.  Though to save people the trouble, here it is - Oxford University not only say that Richard Dawkins is, in fact a professor, but actually awarded him a position with the title of the 'Professor of the Public Understanding of Science'[http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/1995-6/supps/2_4408.htm#4Ref].  Barack Obama was a 'Senior Lecturer' at the University of Chicago, and they released a press notice saying,'Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors'[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html].  So, going by the examples listed, 'liberals', in fact, call people 'professors' when...erm...they are. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 10:26, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Well to be fair, Oxford entered the fray after the tempest started, and post-facto seems to have, err, re-arranged its thinking, lol.  Typical [[liberal deceit]]. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:17, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry about leaping in there with the deletion, TK. It just seemed (a) below the belt, since there are plenty of dubious PhD's espousing conservative views, and (b) out of place in a list detailing ideological stances. I still don't see the need for it, I'm afraid. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 21:53, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, Oxford granted Dawkins his professorship in 1996.  The link I provided above demonstrates this.  The 'tempest' (I would actually call it more a 'storm in a teacup') started in 2007, when a certain person here tried to throw doubt on Dawkins' academic credentials in what can only be described, quite frankly, as a blatent ad hominem attack. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 16:32, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reverts ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could we discuss on the talk page instead of having an edit war? Thanks. In case it's ambiguous, I'm talking about the inclusion of &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:22, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I'm in favour of deleting it, since it's not actually a political stance. What's more, it's an ''ad hominem'' generalisation (I didn't even know such things were possible until I came to Conservapedia... ;-D ) [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:14, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The reason for my removal of said bullet point is firstly that it is not a political belief (which the introductory sentence says is the object of the list), it is an act which some editors think is typical or generally the case with liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
: Secondly, I would entirely disagree with the notion that liberals engage in such an act; I would also entirely disagree that conservatives do, or for that matter any definable section of society. &lt;br /&gt;
: Unless someone can find a reference which shows that a significant percentage of liberals routinely call similarly-minded individuals 'professor' - which they won't - I will believe that the editor that included it either fabricated such information or believes it to be true despite not having studied the debating habits of a large proportion of liberals. All information here should have a reference, particularly if it is likely to be contested, regardless of the effect that it has on the arguments of such editors, whatever their ideology be. If it is impossible to provide a reference, then such information should not be included. &lt;br /&gt;
: I would therefore agree with Underscoreb's comments. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 18:19, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The discussion page (and archives) of Dawkins provides ample proof of what latitude liberals are willing to cut those of like-mind. As well as Andy's thoughts on the matter, and his own conclusion that the included item is accurate. Its inclusion here was suggested by Andy as well. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:23, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Surely we can do better than that, TK - what you seem to be saying is, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to some liberals once, and they said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. The second part of your argument seems to be, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to Andy once, and he said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. Leaving aside the argument of whether those figures have or haven't earned their credentials, this statement is tarring all liberals with the same brush, based on a conversation you witnessed. It's not the most rigorous methodology. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:34, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree with Uderscoreb's reply to TK's comments. TK - your reasoning is very illogical: it relies on the premise that: &amp;quot;if some X have character Y, then it must be a common trait of X to display Y&amp;quot; The influence of the people that agree with your arguments has no effect on the validity of such an argument;  as has been used on the [[Global warming controversy]] article: &amp;quot;In any event, it is important to remember that public opinion does not change the physical reality. Even if 100% of people of both parties believe in anthropogenic climate change, if the reality is that mankind is not responsible, then public opinion to the contrary does not change that fact&amp;quot;. Conservapedia rightly recognises this argument, why does it not stand here? Surely you must agree that generalisation of the kind used to justify inclusion of said liberal trait entirely falls flat on condition of its logical worth; you must do, otherwise dragging 'Andy' into the argument would not be necessary. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 07:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
LOL!  Sounds utterly, almost European in logic, and certainly liberal. Here in America, we have a saying:  &amp;quot;You made your bed. Now lie in it.&amp;quot; Please don't expect the rest of the world to agree with your efforts to hide from plain view your most obvious traits. Perhaps Ed Poor will consider a reading plan for you so that the veil can be lifted from your eyes. &amp;quot;Andy&amp;quot; is a noted expert on liberal apology, and as such, always germain to the discussions here. It is clear you recognize that fact because of your stated aversion it!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:51, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:''European'' logic? Just logic, I reckon. Good old conservative logic. American logic. Ancient Greek logic. Logical logic. BTW, I also agree with Underscoreb. The discussion page on Dawkins proves nothing - even if we accept the premise that Dawkins himself is an evil liberal. You cannot prove a generality by quoting a number of instances. (And you certainly can't prove anything by appealing to authority.) [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 08:07, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Don't be a d***. You know full well that rational thought is not restricted to the laws of [[deduction]]; see also [[induction]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:10, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::TK, nobody needs a veil to hide 'obvious truths' if they are simply illogical. And please do not use ''ad hominem'' arguments (like labelling anything I say 'European') to detract from arguments that you disagree with, and divert attention away from the point of the debate. If I said that &amp;quot;Conservepedia editors use ''ad hominem'' arguments to prove their views&amp;quot;, you would rightly disagree, as I would, because clearly it is not true, despite evidence that some do (right here). Equally, saying that liberals believe in &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is illogical - some might, as might some centrists, some conservatives, some Africans, some women, any polity one can think of - but it is extremely obvious that it is not something that liberals or any polity is defined by more than any other. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:14, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ed Poor - yes I do, but you should know that there are well-justified problems with the validity of induction, particularly where the observed classes are not objects but thoughts, ideologies and polities. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:29, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I believe the phrase you are looking for, EU, is [[Logical_fallacy#Overgeneralization|overgeneralization]]. Also, just as a point of order: all arguments being made here are inductive. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 10:20, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thanks for the term - that is definitely one of the relevant acts. Yes this discussion is inductive, well pointed out =) Over-generalisation is all too common; generalisation is a justified way of inferring information about the whole from that of a part, but it is very easy to wrongly use it in situations where it is impossible to predict the nature of the whole from a part, as is the case in point, and the error used in such analyses as the famously disproved 'all swans are white' case. Over-generalisation can lead to such senseless acts as discrimination, and, as proved by this article, fallacies in the description of disagreeable ideologies. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 10:44, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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May I make a suggestion?  Keep the disputed sentence, but move it over to [[liberal style]].  It fits in very nicely over there.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 17:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree, it's definitely more an example of liberal style than it is a political position, as all the rest of the items on the list are. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:51, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Pragmatically, I support such a move also; despite mine and others' misgivings about its legitimacy, at least it is more appropriate there. --[[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 14:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Pragmatically'' what this encyclopedia needs is less &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;obfuscation&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;, and chipping away by internationalists, of the conservative, American, POV of Conservapedia, to make it read neutral.  Moving something ''Europeans'' and liberals don't agree with, to another article, is censorship. If liberal users disagree with the conservative point of view of CP, they should give up trying to change it, and find a liberal/internationalist encyclopedia to edit, IMO.  If they did, two-thirds of these needless arguments would be eliminated, IMO. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:04, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I think RossC's suggestion is a good one. Not because &amp;quot;calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is not a liberal trait (though no one has yet demonstrated that it is), but because (as a couple of others have said) it isn't a political or quasi-political belief like the other items in the list, and it looks out of place here. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Well, I added it at Andy's suggestion, made on his talk page, as the edit note clearly states,  so the question as to if it belongs ''here'' is pretty moot, I think.  I disagree that Schlafly hasn't demonstrated that fact, 100 times over, on the Dawkins or Obama talk pages.  I do agree that it appears only liberals disagree on that. It is an argument certainly older than CP, between conservatives and liberals, and all the more a bone of contention between Europeans and United States conservatives.  It boils down to a clear disagreement between ''Internationalists'' (and they are primarily liberal) and those of us who support CP, which was founded as a U.S. Christian/Conservative - friendly encyclopedia, to continue to be true to that.  While I wouldn't want to ignore the world as ''Internationalists'' see it, or wish it to be, that outlook is already embraced by Wikipedia, several thousand times larger than CP, so the POV is more than adequately served. So, while wanting to acknowledge what the liberal &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot; is, it cannot, nor should it be, incorporated into CP's articles, other than to point out what those who believe in it think, and why American conservatives think they are wrong.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Some, mostly from other countries, while they might be Christians, ''certainly are not United States conservatives'', and even they seek to impose their unique, anti (or contrary to)-U.S. point of view on CP, trying, bit by bit, to remove anything they consider &amp;quot;U.S.-centric&amp;quot;.  They are among those, like the liberals, who seek to fundamentally change the founding precepts of Conservapedia, and turn it towards the so-called &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot;.  While I don't seek to diminish what they believe (they cannot help it, being used to a &amp;quot;Wikipedian World&amp;quot; and not Americans) their role here, editors or admins alike, it seems to me, is either to get on board with CP's point of view, or at least stop the constant arguing that distracts from more content being made, and discouraging conservative editors from doing so. Since the actual practice of &amp;quot;conservatism&amp;quot; outside the United States, is fundamentally different, that puts CP automatically at odds with Europeans and others who might say they are &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; but in actual political practice their philosophy is closer to United States liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::You seem to be confusing censorship with moving something to a different place; you well know that this suggestion is not censorship. Secondly, you seem to be, rather paranoiacally, confusing the legitimate opinion of a sentence's logicality/legitimacy with some form of opinion, which (again with the personal attacks) stems from the idea that just because some here are liberal, not American, internationalist, means that their objections are part of some anti-American, anti-CP, anti-conservative or anti-whatever viewpoint quest to annoy, obfuscate or slow down progress. The reason that I, and a couple of others, object to that sentence is nothing to do with opinion, just logic, and the suggestion to move it to another article is just about appropriateness. A list about conservative positions would not include anything that isn't a position (like professor-calling), same as a list on liberal positions would not. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:30, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''''Personal attacks?''''' On whom?  Liberals in general?  Some particular liberal? I demand an apology!  CP is indeed an American ''conservative'' encyclopedia.  You somehow seem intent on arguing forever, obstructing, until your personal POV  (self-declared as logic) is accepted as the model of rationality. And you somehow mistake sticking to one's principles for paranoia, lol. I see you (not me) have resorted to personal insults, Europeanunion.  Called me paranoid, didn't you?  That is indeed a bit different than making a generalized (but true) statement about liberals and internationalists. Since you are a liberal, all that you think, all of your logic, is colored through that prism. The article was locked, by an Admin, for a reason, and that reason was removal of material conservatives deem appropriate, and suggested by the Owner.  If you don't like it, go to his page and take him to task for daring to be so illogical as to suggest adding it. But remember this isn't a mobocracy. Conservative thought will always prevail here. I hope you enjoy your weekend!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:09, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is clear that we will never see eye-to-eye over this issue, or the nature of each other's arguments. I express my preference for deleting the sentence, but recognise the impossibility of that in this situation. I express my preference that the sentence be moved to a more appropriate article, and hope that this occurs. But I don't think that there's anything more to add to substantiate my views, or to be achieved by further arguing here, so I will leave the discussion, unless someone asks for my opinion on a development. I will instead continue adding information in my field of experience with less controversial articles which are not personal favourites of sysops. Thanks for your hope TK, I hope everyone has a nice day =) [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 11:23, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It's unfortunate that we could not come to an agreement on this matter :( [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:58, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, given the first few posts here, with the item being unilaterally removed without any discussion, ''and Europeanunion calling me a paranoid, and accusing me making personal attacks'', &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;and not apologizing for either statement when asked to&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;; did anyone here really think that was the way to accommodation or agreement? I sense a double standard here, with some people being pretty free at calling posts &amp;quot;trolling&amp;quot; when they don't agree with the POV, and yet allowing others to make personal attacks/name calling, and never saying a word.  That is neither Christian, fair or conservative, is it?  And this from the same people extolling their &amp;quot;logic&amp;quot; and fairness.    --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:41, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was going to concentrate on other things on CP, but I believe your previous post deserves a reply. I did not call you paranoid, but that you &amp;quot;rather paranoiacally&amp;quot; confused an objection based on legitimacy with an opinion based on where I live et cetera - the word paranoia being defined as &amp;quot;suspicion of others that is not based on fact&amp;quot;. The personal attacks were the ''ad hominem'' arguments that you used - the definition of that phrase is &amp;quot;replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument&amp;quot;. I do not apologise for stating that, but I am sorry if you feel it is an injustice (I do not). [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:46, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, even a statement about the thinking of liberals is branded &amp;quot;ad hominem&amp;quot; arguments now, simply because you refuse to accept what liberals think and do?  I will note that an argument isn't a personal attack as you labeled it. And I am sorry, but this is not Wikipedia, so your assertion of some rule that CP doesn't have, nor endorse, is specious. This encyclopedia has hundreds, thousands of entries, cataloging liberal deceit and liberal thinking, and their attempts, like your statement above, to brand any contrary thinking to liberal tenets as an &amp;quot;attack&amp;quot;. As for &amp;quot;paranoia&amp;quot;, well, your own post above clearly demonstrates CP's suspicion of liberals is well-founded. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:06, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Affront ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As someone who doesn't proscribe to any particular political ideology, but would be labeled as a liberal, I'm honestly quite offended by this article. This isn't an encyclopedic entry, it's a systematic assault on liberalism. I understand that it's the opposing viewpoint from the reigning one here, but you have to have some level of integrity. How would you feel if I made a Liberapedia and filled the &amp;quot;Conservative&amp;quot; page with unproven remarks about how your political ideology is based exclusively on greed? You can't claim to be &amp;quot;The Trustworthy Encyclopedia&amp;quot; when you have articles like this. It's just disgusting. You could go ahead and write a section on why liberal viewpoints conflict with yours, but having the entire damned page filled with hate and bigotry is horrible. [[User:Shortcat|Shortcat]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: You didn't cite any specific examples in the entry to support your rant.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:51, 10 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Support of obscenity and pornography as a First Amendment right[4] -&amp;gt; This is simply untrue. Instead of stating a fact (liberals tend to support free speech), you're saying that liberals believe porn is their constitutional right. That's bull.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama). -&amp;gt; What?&lt;br /&gt;
:: Some argue that liberals typically support economic policy similar to that of fascism. [7] -&amp;gt; So liberals are fascists now? That's just plain offensive.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Typo ==&lt;br /&gt;
Implementation is spelled incorrectly in the lead. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 23:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== WBC is a &amp;quot;Liberal Organization&amp;quot;? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I usually refrain from capslocking, but WHAT? The [[Westboro Baptist Church]] is a ''liberal organization''? If the article wasn't protected, I would suspect vandalism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A hate group that condemns homosexuality, Roman Catholics, Muslims and Jews, as well as Swedes, Canadians, Irish, British, Mexicans and Americans is a ''liberal organization''? This smells like [[political identification bias]] to me - a conservative editor doesn't like WBC, so it ''must'' be liberal! --[[User:JBrown|JBrown]] 10:00, 11 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But WBC and Phelps hate the US military, and have made it their primary&lt;br /&gt;
mission to demonstrate and publicize this.  Also, he was inarguably a liberal civil&lt;br /&gt;
rights attorney before he turned to his present fixation.  Perhaps where he's taken&lt;br /&gt;
liberalism even justifies a new appellation...  '''hyperliberal''', anyone? &lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jamesmason|Jamesmason]] 20:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474435</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474435"/>
		<updated>2008-06-15T02:41:49Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* Westboro Baptist Church */&lt;/p&gt;
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[[Talk:Liberal/Arch1|Archive 1]]|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch2|Archive 2]]&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;!-- =============DO NOT ARCHIVE ANYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE!============================== --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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This entry is really quite pathetic. If you're going to lock an entry, at least clean it up first. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 23:49, 11 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree. Someone must put pictures of famous liberal democrats and photoshop horns onto them. That would drive the point home.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Much improved, thankyou. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 20:13, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Sorry to say it, but I have to agree.  I was going to add some content here but of course I can't.  This article is really quite bad, not to mention very incomplete.  It would be better to deal with vandalism manually than to prevent the article (which really is quite important, is it not?) from being developed. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 11:25, 17 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Westboro Baptist Church?&lt;br /&gt;
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That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?&lt;br /&gt;
:Why?  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 17:35, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It's because [[Fred Phelps]] is a [[liberal|liberal activist]] (see the discussion on the [[Talk:Fred Phelps|talk page]] for an explanation).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::By the way, it appears the link is broken anyway. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 18:34, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Different definitions of Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just wanted to add a line pointing out that in some countries such as Australia, the term Liberal is actually used to refer to the conservative view.  See the Liberal Party of Australia as an example.  This could be worth pointing out as it will prevent them being tarnished by the comments here aimed towards the left wing type Liberals.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That list of (supposed) liberal positions at the beginning is at best a half-truth.  Many liberals (including me) DO NOT SUPPORT a number of them.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 10:43, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm sorry, but the plural of &amp;quot;antidote&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;antidotes,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;data.&amp;quot; The list stays. [[User:J2xl|J2xl]] 22:00, 30 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Do tell us, J2, what is the plural of 'malapropism'? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:38, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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And just what is so wrong about taxpayer-supported government schools?  If it weren't for them, many people, including my parents, wouldn't have been able to get an education.  By the way, does the stance of Aschlafly et al against this mean that they would be willing to voluntarily support the education of children not their own whose parents couldn't afford to?[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 00:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Pathetic Article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The formatting is abysmal, the content laughable. I thought Conservapedia was a serious movement to write articles from a right-wing intelligent viewpoint... but i see it's dominated with weak, stolen political jokes. JOKES in an apparently &amp;quot;informative&amp;quot; article. If this is just an oversight, i retract everything.&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with the comment above and have reinstated it despite someone (I think Karajou's?) deletion of it. However it should have been signed. I think it's Silvanus', but I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Does anyone know a way of adding a signature to someone else's comment? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::IMHO, liberalism is like silly putty, you can make of it whatever you want to.  Like Hillary going for the Christian vote or Kerry for the NRA.  Next they'll be going after the cigarette smoker vote. All else is extraneous. But that is probably too simple a definition.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:19, 19 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well, I certainly agree that the editors are applying that attitude to this article. It's generalised, bigoted and unencyclopedic. Yours is not a humble opinion, it's a pompous and largely unfounded diatribe. This isn't trolling, I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the admins are stonewalling any revision of this article, when it's such an important topic. 'Know thine enemy', at the very least. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 16:07, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We could unlock it and put today's DNC talking points in. Of course then we'd have to revise it tomorrow to say something completely opposite to accomodate tomorrows talking points.  Call this a [[stable version]].  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 16:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Uhhhh, nearly all my edits are gone.  Those edits were made to strengthen the article.  dubweiser.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Liberal Failures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Rush Limbaugh]] had a section in the December 2007 [[Limbaugh Letter]] called &amp;quot;Liberal Failures&amp;quot;. At rushlimbaugh.com, Rush says he got the idea for his article from an article by Jeffrey Lord: [http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters - American Spectator].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush lists several examples of liberal failures under each of these categories:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Economy/Taxation&lt;br /&gt;
*Health Care&lt;br /&gt;
*Law/Criminal Justice&lt;br /&gt;
*Environment&lt;br /&gt;
*Education&lt;br /&gt;
*Immigration&lt;br /&gt;
*Culture&lt;br /&gt;
*National Security&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush says &amp;quot;''Liberalism doesn't work''. It fails, every time it's tried.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nailing the Left - Liberal Failures, [[Rush Limbaugh]], ''The [[Limbaugh Letter]]'', December 2007, pp. 13-15&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jeffrey Lord lists examples of these liberal disasters:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Forced School Busing&lt;br /&gt;
* Welfare&lt;br /&gt;
* Luxury Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Alternative Minimum Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Bringing Peace to Vietnam and Cambodia&lt;br /&gt;
* Free Love&lt;br /&gt;
* Drugs&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;TOO SUM UP: Whether it was education policy, welfare policy, economic policy, foreign policy or social policy, time after time after time what became the guiding lights of modern American liberalism proved to be utter disasters. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters] Jeffrey Lord, ''The American Spectator'', 11/6/2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We could create a new page called [[Liberal Failures]] or incorporate it into one of our existing liberal articles. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 10:41, 9 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Denial of gender differences by liberals==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;denial of inherent gender differences, leading to things such as wanting men and women to have the same jobs in the military (while quietly holding them to different standards)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Should we also note that liberals think women should be able to vote too, even though the conservatives throughout history have fought against women's suffrage? [[User:Alexjohnc3|Alexjohnc3]] 18:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Subsection on liberal rankings of members of congress? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article would benefit from a brief subsection on the rankings of the national journal: http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/index.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The is a very informative page with rankings and voting records of all congress members.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 18:59, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I made the change, feel free to lock the page again.  Thanks --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:26, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Westboro Baptist Church  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see Westboro Baptist Church removed from the list of liberal associations.  The only thing evidence I can see for them being liberal is Fred Phelps's run for office as a Democrat.  In my opinion, this is the same sort of guilt by association, that we accuse Wikipedia of on the Biases of Wikipedia page.  To put it another way, having Westboro Baptist Church in the Liberal section, would be like a liberal site having KKK as a conservative organization simply because David Duke was active in the KKK and ran for office as a Republican.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 20:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Thanks for removing this, Ed! --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:28, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The other, damning evidence is Phelp's supporting Al Gore's run for President, contributing money to him and providing office space to his campaign.  So, aside from Phelp's running as a Democrat, and there are plenty of Democrats who are not liberal, all there is to show him as a liberal is his picture with Al Gore, and those pesky election commission documents and press reports,  showing the contributions and office space donations. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:23, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I disagree that supporting a Democrat automatically makes you a liberal. No &amp;quot;one&amp;quot; issue makes you a liberal, so let's look at the whole person, not just one aspect, in deciding his political ideologies. What other liberal tendencies does he have?   Do we know (or is it known) his current political affiliations? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I respect that disagreement. But I didn't say just being a Democrat makes one liberal, read the post, I clearly say there are lots of Democrats who aren't liberal.  But supporting Gore does make you one!  :P   But I think the reference is fair, inasmuch as the looney far left continues to assert that the evil Phelps is a conservative.  Therefore showing all of his affiliations is the only right thing to do, so the users of this encyclopedia will see all of his many facets, and can decide for themselves what (it) Phelps is. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:22, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It seems that Phelps supported Gore when Gore refused to support gay rights, then turned on Gore when he joined Clinton in promoting gay rights, going so far as to picket the funeral of Gore's father screaming &amp;quot;Your Dad's in Hell!&amp;quot; That doesn't strike me as liberal, just opportunist. Fred Phelps has only one issue that he cares about, which almost makes him apolitical. [[User:RandomishName11|RandomishName11]] 00:50, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I agree that we should let the users decide for themselves what he is. They can't, however, decide for themselves if we tell them what to think. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:25, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm sorry, but this sort of absurd. I certainly don't want WBC to be called ''conservative'', but I don't think they're liberal either. That's just kind of silly. I don't care who he supported for president. Any organization as vehemently opposed to the sin of homosexuality as they are cannot be described as &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot;, since liberals won't even admit that homosexuality is a sin in the first place. That's kind of like calling NARTH conservative simply because they are as proud of America and her military as much as conservatives do. It's just silly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Huh? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Wait a minute. So, if the media has a [[liberal bias]], wouldn't reinstating the fairness doctine limit '''liberal''' airtime instead of Conservative airtime? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Liberals control ''most'' media, and especially newspapers and television.  They don't control talk radio, but want to grab that also and support the phony fairness doctrine for that reason.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::... Wouldn't the fairness doctrine cover all broadcast media? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::A day passes. Silence. It is contradictory to claim that liberals control all media, but equal time only harms conservatives. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; is associated most with the United States politicians and, besides, its meaning is not all that different in other countries.  A qualification is not necessary or helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I suggest that you read the section headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot;.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 21:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.S. It may assist you to take a look at where the Australian Liberal Party are on the political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I assume that I have convinced you.  If I hear no further from you I will proceed to reinsert my edit.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 16:54, 30 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The only one I see that only applies to US liberals is the one about the living Constitution. The rest are correct, though. Perhaps we should put a disclaimer next to this one, and then leave the opening line as &amp;quot;A liberal is...&amp;quot;. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whoops I found a couple more (the ones about the First Amendment and the Fairness Doctrine), however the majority of the qualities are not limited to the US. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Even the issues you cite have analogs in other countries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:37, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::You're probably right. Could we change the wording a bit to reflect that? That way you won't have to keep reverting people. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:25, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: I don't the see the need for any changes, and reversion will still be necessary because the [[liberals]] will never be happy with this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::That's probably very true. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Glad we're all getting on so well.  Those silly liberals will never learn.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyhoo, doesn't look like either of you read the section in the article headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot; as I suggested in my post above.  Nor, I assume, did you follow the political compass link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not sure why it is so important to maintain internal inconsistency in this article.  Nor do I understand why it is so important to maintain that the American usage of the word liberal is the only usage of the word in the world today (which it clearly is not as the article itself states).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Any even half sensible explanation would be appreciated.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:43, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:If you want to be taken seriously please keep a civil tone. I'm sorry I didn't see those links; I was primarily responding to the edit war, which was over the statement &amp;quot;a liberal poseses the following qualities&amp;quot;. I messed up, I'm only human. Feel better now? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:20, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: My apologies to you.  I am rather more annoyed with Andy who blocked me for a 90/10 violation (coincidentally while we were disagreeing here and on the talk:Liberal denial page).  I did not realise that you were looking at something else.  We are all only human as you say.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Actaully, upon review, I think you may have been looking in just about the right place.  The edit war was over the inclusion of the phrase &amp;quot;In the United States a Liberal...&amp;quot; at the start of the article.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:31, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: So, should I change it back again?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 17:27, 5 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I'm guessing that wouldn't be a wise idea. I would take a look at [[conservative]], though. Perhaps if you moved the general definition to the front, then it would make more sense to have the specific list refer to only Americans. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== about liberals ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by documented cyclical changes in the earth's climate and more affected by Soccer moms driving SUV's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. You have to believe that the teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make 'The Passion of the Christ' for financial gain only.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice  person.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.&lt;br /&gt;
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19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag queens, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected,and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is somehow in the best interest to the United&lt;br /&gt;
States.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
22. You have to believe that it's okay to give Federal workers the day off on Christmas Day .........but it's not okay to say &amp;quot;Merry Christmas&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Thiudareiks|Thiudareiks]] 06:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:&amp;quot;You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&amp;quot; Speaking as a filthy pinko liberal, this is actually pretty funny. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Cool.  You got one of these for Conservatives, too?  --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:07, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Positive Liberal Contributions To Society ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Are there any? --[[User:RJest|RJest]] 17:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Of course there are&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Niccolò Machiavelli (Florence, 1469-1527), best known for his Il Principe was the founder of realist political philosophy, advocated republican government, citizen armies, division of power, protection of personal property, and restraint of government expenditure as being necessary to the liberties of a republic&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Desiderius Erasmus (Netherlands, 1466-1536) was an advocate of the doctrine now known as humanism, critic of entrenched interests, irrationality and superstition. Erasmusian societies formed across Europe, to some extent in response to the turbulence of the Reformation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Hugo Grotius or Hugo de Groot (Netherlands, 1583-1645), laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law, in his book Mare Liberum (Free Seas) formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory and all nations were free to use it for seafaring trade&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Hobbes (England, 1588-1679) theorized that government is the result of individual actions and human traits, and that it was motivated primarily by &amp;quot;interest&amp;quot;, a term which would become crucial in the development of a liberal theory of government and political economy, since it is the foundation of the idea that individuals can be self-governing and self-regulating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Baruch Spinoza (Netherlands, 1632-1677) is in his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus and Tractatus Politicus a proto-liberal defending the value of separation of church and state as well as forms of democracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The notions of John Locke (United Kingdom, 1632-1704) of a &amp;quot;government with the consent of the governed&amp;quot; and man's natural rights—life, liberty, and estate (property) as well on tolerance,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*John Trenchard (United Kingdom, 1662-1723) was co-author, with Thomas Gordon of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Gordon (United Kingdom, 169?-1750) was co-author, with John Trenchard of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Benjamin Franklin (United States, 1706-1790) was an inventor, scientist, writer, entrepreneur, diplomat and statesman. He called for the end of mercantilism while advocating free trade, industrialization, the abolition of slavery, free public libraries, democratic government and national unity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jean-Jacques Rousseau (France, 1712-1778) promulgated the idea that men were naturally free, but had to be educated to live in society. This required a natural liberty and a &amp;quot;national will&amp;quot; which could be directed to improvement of the society. He is famous for the quote &amp;quot;men are born free, but are everywhere in chains&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Should I go on. OK good. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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** Wow... comprehensive, concise and encyclopedic. I propose we incorporate the above comment into the page itself. A new subsection, perhaps - &amp;quot;Liberal contributions to Western thought&amp;quot;? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 22:11, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*I ripped it from Wikipedia, however i thought it was expressed very intelligently and there is much more&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Too bad none of the above are liberals in the modern meaning of the word.  Think [[Benjamin Franklin]] supported &lt;br /&gt;
[[abortion]]???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:39, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, or Abraham Lincoln? (Yes, Honest Abe was a Liberal by the standards of his time, since slavery was the status quo.  A Liberal so despised by half of the population that they were willing to '''commit treason''' rather than put up with him.) --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As for the above statement maybe Benjamin did not support abortion but remember things 50+ years ago were very conservative remember liberal means progress. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:As Robert Anton Wilson has said, you can go from Liberal to Conservative in 25 years without changing a single opinion. --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Citation Request ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It looks like my citation request may have deleted more than a few lines.  How did this happen?  Can it be corrected? --Jimmy 14:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think you might have edited an older version of the page. The line you wanted to add a fact to was not even there in the version prior to your edit. I have reverted it to the version right before yours. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:23, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Richard Dawkins/Barack Obama ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm glad someone added the wikilinks to the last gem added - all it now takes is for someone to click the links, then consult the Talk pages for those articles to see how stupendously, amusingly wrong that entry actually is.  Though to save people the trouble, here it is - Oxford University not only say that Richard Dawkins is, in fact a professor, but actually awarded him a position with the title of the 'Professor of the Public Understanding of Science'[http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/1995-6/supps/2_4408.htm#4Ref].  Barack Obama was a 'Senior Lecturer' at the University of Chicago, and they released a press notice saying,'Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors'[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html].  So, going by the examples listed, 'liberals', in fact, call people 'professors' when...erm...they are. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 10:26, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Well to be fair, Oxford entered the fray after the tempest started, and post-facto seems to have, err, re-arranged its thinking, lol.  Typical [[liberal deceit]]. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:17, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry about leaping in there with the deletion, TK. It just seemed (a) below the belt, since there are plenty of dubious PhD's espousing conservative views, and (b) out of place in a list detailing ideological stances. I still don't see the need for it, I'm afraid. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 21:53, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, Oxford granted Dawkins his professorship in 1996.  The link I provided above demonstrates this.  The 'tempest' (I would actually call it more a 'storm in a teacup') started in 2007, when a certain person here tried to throw doubt on Dawkins' academic credentials in what can only be described, quite frankly, as a blatent ad hominem attack. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 16:32, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reverts ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could we discuss on the talk page instead of having an edit war? Thanks. In case it's ambiguous, I'm talking about the inclusion of &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:22, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I'm in favour of deleting it, since it's not actually a political stance. What's more, it's an ''ad hominem'' generalisation (I didn't even know such things were possible until I came to Conservapedia... ;-D ) [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:14, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The reason for my removal of said bullet point is firstly that it is not a political belief (which the introductory sentence says is the object of the list), it is an act which some editors think is typical or generally the case with liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
: Secondly, I would entirely disagree with the notion that liberals engage in such an act; I would also entirely disagree that conservatives do, or for that matter any definable section of society. &lt;br /&gt;
: Unless someone can find a reference which shows that a significant percentage of liberals routinely call similarly-minded individuals 'professor' - which they won't - I will believe that the editor that included it either fabricated such information or believes it to be true despite not having studied the debating habits of a large proportion of liberals. All information here should have a reference, particularly if it is likely to be contested, regardless of the effect that it has on the arguments of such editors, whatever their ideology be. If it is impossible to provide a reference, then such information should not be included. &lt;br /&gt;
: I would therefore agree with Underscoreb's comments. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 18:19, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The discussion page (and archives) of Dawkins provides ample proof of what latitude liberals are willing to cut those of like-mind. As well as Andy's thoughts on the matter, and his own conclusion that the included item is accurate. Its inclusion here was suggested by Andy as well. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:23, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Surely we can do better than that, TK - what you seem to be saying is, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to some liberals once, and they said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. The second part of your argument seems to be, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to Andy once, and he said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. Leaving aside the argument of whether those figures have or haven't earned their credentials, this statement is tarring all liberals with the same brush, based on a conversation you witnessed. It's not the most rigorous methodology. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:34, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree with Uderscoreb's reply to TK's comments. TK - your reasoning is very illogical: it relies on the premise that: &amp;quot;if some X have character Y, then it must be a common trait of X to display Y&amp;quot; The influence of the people that agree with your arguments has no effect on the validity of such an argument;  as has been used on the [[Global warming controversy]] article: &amp;quot;In any event, it is important to remember that public opinion does not change the physical reality. Even if 100% of people of both parties believe in anthropogenic climate change, if the reality is that mankind is not responsible, then public opinion to the contrary does not change that fact&amp;quot;. Conservapedia rightly recognises this argument, why does it not stand here? Surely you must agree that generalisation of the kind used to justify inclusion of said liberal trait entirely falls flat on condition of its logical worth; you must do, otherwise dragging 'Andy' into the argument would not be necessary. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 07:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
LOL!  Sounds utterly, almost European in logic, and certainly liberal. Here in America, we have a saying:  &amp;quot;You made your bed. Now lie in it.&amp;quot; Please don't expect the rest of the world to agree with your efforts to hide from plain view your most obvious traits. Perhaps Ed Poor will consider a reading plan for you so that the veil can be lifted from your eyes. &amp;quot;Andy&amp;quot; is a noted expert on liberal apology, and as such, always germain to the discussions here. It is clear you recognize that fact because of your stated aversion it!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:51, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:''European'' logic? Just logic, I reckon. Good old conservative logic. American logic. Ancient Greek logic. Logical logic. BTW, I also agree with Underscoreb. The discussion page on Dawkins proves nothing - even if we accept the premise that Dawkins himself is an evil liberal. You cannot prove a generality by quoting a number of instances. (And you certainly can't prove anything by appealing to authority.) [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 08:07, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Don't be a d***. You know full well that rational thought is not restricted to the laws of [[deduction]]; see also [[induction]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:10, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::TK, nobody needs a veil to hide 'obvious truths' if they are simply illogical. And please do not use ''ad hominem'' arguments (like labelling anything I say 'European') to detract from arguments that you disagree with, and divert attention away from the point of the debate. If I said that &amp;quot;Conservepedia editors use ''ad hominem'' arguments to prove their views&amp;quot;, you would rightly disagree, as I would, because clearly it is not true, despite evidence that some do (right here). Equally, saying that liberals believe in &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is illogical - some might, as might some centrists, some conservatives, some Africans, some women, any polity one can think of - but it is extremely obvious that it is not something that liberals or any polity is defined by more than any other. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:14, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ed Poor - yes I do, but you should know that there are well-justified problems with the validity of induction, particularly where the observed classes are not objects but thoughts, ideologies and polities. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:29, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I believe the phrase you are looking for, EU, is [[Logical_fallacy#Overgeneralization|overgeneralization]]. Also, just as a point of order: all arguments being made here are inductive. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 10:20, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thanks for the term - that is definitely one of the relevant acts. Yes this discussion is inductive, well pointed out =) Over-generalisation is all too common; generalisation is a justified way of inferring information about the whole from that of a part, but it is very easy to wrongly use it in situations where it is impossible to predict the nature of the whole from a part, as is the case in point, and the error used in such analyses as the famously disproved 'all swans are white' case. Over-generalisation can lead to such senseless acts as discrimination, and, as proved by this article, fallacies in the description of disagreeable ideologies. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 10:44, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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May I make a suggestion?  Keep the disputed sentence, but move it over to [[liberal style]].  It fits in very nicely over there.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 17:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree, it's definitely more an example of liberal style than it is a political position, as all the rest of the items on the list are. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:51, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Pragmatically, I support such a move also; despite mine and others' misgivings about its legitimacy, at least it is more appropriate there. --[[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 14:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Pragmatically'' what this encyclopedia needs is less &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;obfuscation&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;, and chipping away by internationalists, of the conservative, American, POV of Conservapedia, to make it read neutral.  Moving something ''Europeans'' and liberals don't agree with, to another article, is censorship. If liberal users disagree with the conservative point of view of CP, they should give up trying to change it, and find a liberal/internationalist encyclopedia to edit, IMO.  If they did, two-thirds of these needless arguments would be eliminated, IMO. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:04, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I think RossC's suggestion is a good one. Not because &amp;quot;calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is not a liberal trait (though no one has yet demonstrated that it is), but because (as a couple of others have said) it isn't a political or quasi-political belief like the other items in the list, and it looks out of place here. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Well, I added it at Andy's suggestion, made on his talk page, as the edit note clearly states,  so the question as to if it belongs ''here'' is pretty moot, I think.  I disagree that Schlafly hasn't demonstrated that fact, 100 times over, on the Dawkins or Obama talk pages.  I do agree that it appears only liberals disagree on that. It is an argument certainly older than CP, between conservatives and liberals, and all the more a bone of contention between Europeans and United States conservatives.  It boils down to a clear disagreement between ''Internationalists'' (and they are primarily liberal) and those of us who support CP, which was founded as a U.S. Christian/Conservative - friendly encyclopedia, to continue to be true to that.  While I wouldn't want to ignore the world as ''Internationalists'' see it, or wish it to be, that outlook is already embraced by Wikipedia, several thousand times larger than CP, so the POV is more than adequately served. So, while wanting to acknowledge what the liberal &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot; is, it cannot, nor should it be, incorporated into CP's articles, other than to point out what those who believe in it think, and why American conservatives think they are wrong.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Some, mostly from other countries, while they might be Christians, ''certainly are not United States conservatives'', and even they seek to impose their unique, anti (or contrary to)-U.S. point of view on CP, trying, bit by bit, to remove anything they consider &amp;quot;U.S.-centric&amp;quot;.  They are among those, like the liberals, who seek to fundamentally change the founding precepts of Conservapedia, and turn it towards the so-called &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot;.  While I don't seek to diminish what they believe (they cannot help it, being used to a &amp;quot;Wikipedian World&amp;quot; and not Americans) their role here, editors or admins alike, it seems to me, is either to get on board with CP's point of view, or at least stop the constant arguing that distracts from more content being made, and discouraging conservative editors from doing so. Since the actual practice of &amp;quot;conservatism&amp;quot; outside the United States, is fundamentally different, that puts CP automatically at odds with Europeans and others who might say they are &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; but in actual political practice their philosophy is closer to United States liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::You seem to be confusing censorship with moving something to a different place; you well know that this suggestion is not censorship. Secondly, you seem to be, rather paranoiacally, confusing the legitimate opinion of a sentence's logicality/legitimacy with some form of opinion, which (again with the personal attacks) stems from the idea that just because some here are liberal, not American, internationalist, means that their objections are part of some anti-American, anti-CP, anti-conservative or anti-whatever viewpoint quest to annoy, obfuscate or slow down progress. The reason that I, and a couple of others, object to that sentence is nothing to do with opinion, just logic, and the suggestion to move it to another article is just about appropriateness. A list about conservative positions would not include anything that isn't a position (like professor-calling), same as a list on liberal positions would not. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:30, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''''Personal attacks?''''' On whom?  Liberals in general?  Some particular liberal? I demand an apology!  CP is indeed an American ''conservative'' encyclopedia.  You somehow seem intent on arguing forever, obstructing, until your personal POV  (self-declared as logic) is accepted as the model of rationality. And you somehow mistake sticking to one's principles for paranoia, lol. I see you (not me) have resorted to personal insults, Europeanunion.  Called me paranoid, didn't you?  That is indeed a bit different than making a generalized (but true) statement about liberals and internationalists. Since you are a liberal, all that you think, all of your logic, is colored through that prism. The article was locked, by an Admin, for a reason, and that reason was removal of material conservatives deem appropriate, and suggested by the Owner.  If you don't like it, go to his page and take him to task for daring to be so illogical as to suggest adding it. But remember this isn't a mobocracy. Conservative thought will always prevail here. I hope you enjoy your weekend!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:09, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is clear that we will never see eye-to-eye over this issue, or the nature of each other's arguments. I express my preference for deleting the sentence, but recognise the impossibility of that in this situation. I express my preference that the sentence be moved to a more appropriate article, and hope that this occurs. But I don't think that there's anything more to add to substantiate my views, or to be achieved by further arguing here, so I will leave the discussion, unless someone asks for my opinion on a development. I will instead continue adding information in my field of experience with less controversial articles which are not personal favourites of sysops. Thanks for your hope TK, I hope everyone has a nice day =) [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 11:23, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It's unfortunate that we could not come to an agreement on this matter :( [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:58, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, given the first few posts here, with the item being unilaterally removed without any discussion, ''and Europeanunion calling me a paranoid, and accusing me making personal attacks'', &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;and not apologizing for either statement when asked to&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;; did anyone here really think that was the way to accommodation or agreement? I sense a double standard here, with some people being pretty free at calling posts &amp;quot;trolling&amp;quot; when they don't agree with the POV, and yet allowing others to make personal attacks/name calling, and never saying a word.  That is neither Christian, fair or conservative, is it?  And this from the same people extolling their &amp;quot;logic&amp;quot; and fairness.    --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:41, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was going to concentrate on other things on CP, but I believe your previous post deserves a reply. I did not call you paranoid, but that you &amp;quot;rather paranoiacally&amp;quot; confused an objection based on legitimacy with an opinion based on where I live et cetera - the word paranoia being defined as &amp;quot;suspicion of others that is not based on fact&amp;quot;. The personal attacks were the ''ad hominem'' arguments that you used - the definition of that phrase is &amp;quot;replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument&amp;quot;. I do not apologise for stating that, but I am sorry if you feel it is an injustice (I do not). [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:46, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::So, even a statement about the thinking of liberals is branded &amp;quot;ad hominem&amp;quot; arguments now, simply because you refuse to accept what liberals think and do?  I will note that an argument isn't a personal attack as you labeled it. And I am sorry, but this is not Wikipedia, so your assertion of some rule that CP doesn't have, nor endorse, is specious. This encyclopedia has hundreds, thousands of entries, cataloging liberal deceit and liberal thinking, and their attempts, like your statement above, to brand any contrary thinking to liberal tenets as an &amp;quot;attack&amp;quot;. As for &amp;quot;paranoia&amp;quot;, well, your own post above clearly demonstrates CP's suspicion of liberals is well-founded. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:06, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Affront ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As someone who doesn't proscribe to any particular political ideology, but would be labeled as a liberal, I'm honestly quite offended by this article. This isn't an encyclopedic entry, it's a systematic assault on liberalism. I understand that it's the opposing viewpoint from the reigning one here, but you have to have some level of integrity. How would you feel if I made a Liberapedia and filled the &amp;quot;Conservative&amp;quot; page with unproven remarks about how your political ideology is based exclusively on greed? You can't claim to be &amp;quot;The Trustworthy Encyclopedia&amp;quot; when you have articles like this. It's just disgusting. You could go ahead and write a section on why liberal viewpoints conflict with yours, but having the entire damned page filled with hate and bigotry is horrible. [[User:Shortcat|Shortcat]]&lt;br /&gt;
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: You didn't cite any specific examples in the entry to support your rant.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:51, 10 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Support of obscenity and pornography as a First Amendment right[4] -&amp;gt; This is simply untrue. Instead of stating a fact (liberals tend to support free speech), you're saying that liberals believe porn is their constitutional right. That's bull.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama). -&amp;gt; What?&lt;br /&gt;
:: Some argue that liberals typically support economic policy similar to that of fascism. [7] -&amp;gt; So liberals are fascists now? That's just plain offensive.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Typo ==&lt;br /&gt;
Implementation is spelled incorrectly in the lead. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 23:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== WBC is a &amp;quot;Liberal Organization&amp;quot;? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I usually refrain from capslocking, but WHAT? The [[Westboro Baptist Church]] is a ''liberal organization''? If the article wasn't protected, I would suspect vandalism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A hate group that condemns homosexuality, Roman Catholics, Muslims and Jews, as well as Swedes, Canadians, Irish, British, Mexicans and Americans is a ''liberal organization''? This smells like [[political identification bias]] to me - a conservative editor doesn't like WBC, so it ''must'' be liberal! --[[User:JBrown|JBrown]] 10:00, 11 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But WBC and Phelps hate the US military, and have made it their primary&lt;br /&gt;
mission to demonstrate and publicize this.  Also, he was inarguably a liberal civil&lt;br /&gt;
rights attorney before he turned to his present fixation.  Perhaps where he's taken&lt;br /&gt;
liberalism even justifies a new appellation...  '''hyperliberal''', anyone? &lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jamesmason|Jamesmason]] 20:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474432</id>
		<title>Talk:Liberal</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Liberal&amp;diff=474432"/>
		<updated>2008-06-15T02:39:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: /* Westboro Baptist Church */&lt;/p&gt;
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[[Talk:Liberal/Arch1|Archive 1]]|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch2|Archive 2]]&lt;br /&gt;
|[[Talk:Liberal/Arch3|Archive 3]]&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;!-- =============DO NOT ARCHIVE ANYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE!============================== --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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This entry is really quite pathetic. If you're going to lock an entry, at least clean it up first. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 23:49, 11 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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I agree. Someone must put pictures of famous liberal democrats and photoshop horns onto them. That would drive the point home.&lt;br /&gt;
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:Much improved, thankyou. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 20:13, 14 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:Sorry to say it, but I have to agree.  I was going to add some content here but of course I can't.  This article is really quite bad, not to mention very incomplete.  It would be better to deal with vandalism manually than to prevent the article (which really is quite important, is it not?) from being developed. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 11:25, 17 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Westboro Baptist Church?&lt;br /&gt;
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That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?&lt;br /&gt;
:Why?  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 17:35, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::It's because [[Fred Phelps]] is a [[liberal|liberal activist]] (see the discussion on the [[Talk:Fred Phelps|talk page]] for an explanation).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::By the way, it appears the link is broken anyway. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 18:34, 5 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Different definitions of Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Just wanted to add a line pointing out that in some countries such as Australia, the term Liberal is actually used to refer to the conservative view.  See the Liberal Party of Australia as an example.  This could be worth pointing out as it will prevent them being tarnished by the comments here aimed towards the left wing type Liberals.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
That list of (supposed) liberal positions at the beginning is at best a half-truth.  Many liberals (including me) DO NOT SUPPORT a number of them.[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 10:43, 21 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I'm sorry, but the plural of &amp;quot;antidote&amp;quot; is &amp;quot;antidotes,&amp;quot; not &amp;quot;data.&amp;quot; The list stays. [[User:J2xl|J2xl]] 22:00, 30 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Do tell us, J2, what is the plural of 'malapropism'? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:38, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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And just what is so wrong about taxpayer-supported government schools?  If it weren't for them, many people, including my parents, wouldn't have been able to get an education.  By the way, does the stance of Aschlafly et al against this mean that they would be willing to voluntarily support the education of children not their own whose parents couldn't afford to?[[User:Alloco1|Alloco1]] 00:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Pathetic Article ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The formatting is abysmal, the content laughable. I thought Conservapedia was a serious movement to write articles from a right-wing intelligent viewpoint... but i see it's dominated with weak, stolen political jokes. JOKES in an apparently &amp;quot;informative&amp;quot; article. If this is just an oversight, i retract everything.&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree with the comment above and have reinstated it despite someone (I think Karajou's?) deletion of it. However it should have been signed. I think it's Silvanus', but I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Does anyone know a way of adding a signature to someone else's comment? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::IMHO, liberalism is like silly putty, you can make of it whatever you want to.  Like Hillary going for the Christian vote or Kerry for the NRA.  Next they'll be going after the cigarette smoker vote. All else is extraneous. But that is probably too simple a definition.  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:19, 19 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Well, I certainly agree that the editors are applying that attitude to this article. It's generalised, bigoted and unencyclopedic. Yours is not a humble opinion, it's a pompous and largely unfounded diatribe. This isn't trolling, I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the admins are stonewalling any revision of this article, when it's such an important topic. 'Know thine enemy', at the very least. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 16:07, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::We could unlock it and put today's DNC talking points in. Of course then we'd have to revise it tomorrow to say something completely opposite to accomodate tomorrows talking points.  Call this a [[stable version]].  [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 16:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Uhhhh, nearly all my edits are gone.  Those edits were made to strengthen the article.  dubweiser.&lt;br /&gt;
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== Liberal Failures ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Rush Limbaugh]] had a section in the December 2007 [[Limbaugh Letter]] called &amp;quot;Liberal Failures&amp;quot;. At rushlimbaugh.com, Rush says he got the idea for his article from an article by Jeffrey Lord: [http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters - American Spectator].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush lists several examples of liberal failures under each of these categories:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Economy/Taxation&lt;br /&gt;
*Health Care&lt;br /&gt;
*Law/Criminal Justice&lt;br /&gt;
*Environment&lt;br /&gt;
*Education&lt;br /&gt;
*Immigration&lt;br /&gt;
*Culture&lt;br /&gt;
*National Security&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rush says &amp;quot;''Liberalism doesn't work''. It fails, every time it's tried.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nailing the Left - Liberal Failures, [[Rush Limbaugh]], ''The [[Limbaugh Letter]]'', December 2007, pp. 13-15&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Jeffrey Lord lists examples of these liberal disasters:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Forced School Busing&lt;br /&gt;
* Welfare&lt;br /&gt;
* Luxury Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Alternative Minimum Tax&lt;br /&gt;
* Bringing Peace to Vietnam and Cambodia&lt;br /&gt;
* Free Love&lt;br /&gt;
* Drugs&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;TOO SUM UP: Whether it was education policy, welfare policy, economic policy, foreign policy or social policy, time after time after time what became the guiding lights of modern American liberalism proved to be utter disasters. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12269 A History of Liberal Disasters] Jeffrey Lord, ''The American Spectator'', 11/6/2007&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
We could create a new page called [[Liberal Failures]] or incorporate it into one of our existing liberal articles. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 10:41, 9 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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==Denial of gender differences by liberals==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;denial of inherent gender differences, leading to things such as wanting men and women to have the same jobs in the military (while quietly holding them to different standards)&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Should we also note that liberals think women should be able to vote too, even though the conservatives throughout history have fought against women's suffrage? [[User:Alexjohnc3|Alexjohnc3]] 18:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Subsection on liberal rankings of members of congress? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think this article would benefit from a brief subsection on the rankings of the national journal: http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/index.htm&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The is a very informative page with rankings and voting records of all congress members.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 18:59, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: I made the change, feel free to lock the page again.  Thanks --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:26, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Westboro Baptist Church  ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I would like to see Westboro Baptist Church removed from the list of liberal associations.  The only thing evidence I can see for them being liberal is Fred Phelps's run for office as a Democrat.  In my opinion, this is the same sort of guilt by association, that we accuse Wikipedia of on the Biases of Wikipedia page.  To put it another way, having Westboro Baptist Church in the Liberal section, would be like a liberal site having KKK as a conservative organization simply because David Duke was active in the KKK and ran for office as a Republican.--[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 20:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Thanks for removing this, Ed! --[[User:PhineasBogg|PhineasBogg]] 16:28, 30 December 2007 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::The other, damning evidence is Phelp's supporting Al Gore's run for President, contributing money to him and providing office space to his campaign.  So, aside from Phelp's running as a Democrat, and there are plenty of Democrats who are not liberal, all there is to show him as a liberal is his picture with Al Gore, and those pesky election commission documents and press reports,  showing the contributions and office space donations. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 11:23, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::I disagree that supporting a Democrat automatically makes you a liberal. No &amp;quot;one&amp;quot; issue makes you a liberal, so let's look at the whole person, not just one aspect, in deciding his political ideologies. What other liberal tendencies does he have?   Do we know (or is it known) his current political affiliations? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:58, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I respect that disagreement. But I didn't say just being a Democrat makes one liberal, read the post, I clearly say there are lots of Democrats who aren't liberal.  But supporting Gore does make you one!  :P   But I think the reference is fair, inasmuch as the looney far left continues to assert that the evil Phelps is a conservative.  Therefore showing all of his affiliations is the only right thing to do, so the users of this encyclopedia will see all of his many facets, and can decide for themselves what (it) Phelps is. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:22, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It seems that Phelps supported Gore when Gore refused to support gay rights, then turned on Gore when he joined Clinton in promoting gay rights, going so far as to picket the funeral of Gore's father screaming &amp;quot;Your Dad's in Hell!&amp;quot; That doesn't strike me as liberal, just opportunist. Fred Phelps has only one issue that he cares about, which almost makes him apolitical. [[User:RandomishName11|RandomishName11]] 00:50, 18 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I agree that we should let the users decide for themselves what he is. They can't, however, decide for themselves if we tell them what to think. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:25, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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I'm sorry, but this sort of absurd. I certainly don't want WBC to be called ''conservative'', but I don't think they're liberal either. That's just kind of silly. I don't care who he supported for president. Any organization as vehemently opposed to the sin of homosexuality cannot be described as &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot;, since liberals won't even admit that homosexuality is a sin in the first place. That's kind of like calling NARTH conservative simply because they also happen to love our troops as much as a lot of conservative organizations do. It's just silly.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Huh? ==&lt;br /&gt;
Wait a minute. So, if the media has a [[liberal bias]], wouldn't reinstating the fairness doctine limit '''liberal''' airtime instead of Conservative airtime? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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: Liberals control ''most'' media, and especially newspapers and television.  They don't control talk radio, but want to grab that also and support the phony fairness doctrine for that reason.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::... Wouldn't the fairness doctrine cover all broadcast media? [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:::A day passes. Silence. It is contradictory to claim that liberals control all media, but equal time only harms conservatives. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 15:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Liberal ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term &amp;quot;liberal&amp;quot; is associated most with the United States politicians and, besides, its meaning is not all that different in other countries.  A qualification is not necessary or helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:I suggest that you read the section headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot;.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 21:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
:P.S. It may assist you to take a look at where the Australian Liberal Party are on the political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::I assume that I have convinced you.  If I hear no further from you I will proceed to reinsert my edit.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 16:54, 30 January 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::The only one I see that only applies to US liberals is the one about the living Constitution. The rest are correct, though. Perhaps we should put a disclaimer next to this one, and then leave the opening line as &amp;quot;A liberal is...&amp;quot;. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
::::Whoops I found a couple more (the ones about the First Amendment and the Fairness Doctrine), however the majority of the qualities are not limited to the US. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::: Even the issues you cite have analogs in other countries.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:37, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::You're probably right. Could we change the wording a bit to reflect that? That way you won't have to keep reverting people. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:25, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::: I don't the see the need for any changes, and reversion will still be necessary because the [[liberals]] will never be happy with this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::::::That's probably very true. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Glad we're all getting on so well.  Those silly liberals will never learn.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Anyhoo, doesn't look like either of you read the section in the article headed &amp;quot;Liberalism in Europe today&amp;quot; as I suggested in my post above.  Nor, I assume, did you follow the political compass link.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I am not sure why it is so important to maintain internal inconsistency in this article.  Nor do I understand why it is so important to maintain that the American usage of the word liberal is the only usage of the word in the world today (which it clearly is not as the article itself states).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Any even half sensible explanation would be appreciated.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 22:43, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:If you want to be taken seriously please keep a civil tone. I'm sorry I didn't see those links; I was primarily responding to the edit war, which was over the statement &amp;quot;a liberal poseses the following qualities&amp;quot;. I messed up, I'm only human. Feel better now? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:20, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: My apologies to you.  I am rather more annoyed with Andy who blocked me for a 90/10 violation (coincidentally while we were disagreeing here and on the talk:Liberal denial page).  I did not realise that you were looking at something else.  We are all only human as you say.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:: Actaully, upon review, I think you may have been looking in just about the right place.  The edit war was over the inclusion of the phrase &amp;quot;In the United States a Liberal...&amp;quot; at the start of the article.  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:31, 4 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::: So, should I change it back again?  --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 17:27, 5 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::::I'm guessing that wouldn't be a wise idea. I would take a look at [[conservative]], though. Perhaps if you moved the general definition to the front, then it would make more sense to have the specific list refer to only Americans. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== about liberals ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by documented cyclical changes in the earth's climate and more affected by Soccer moms driving SUV's.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
8. You have to believe that the teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make 'The Passion of the Christ' for financial gain only.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice  person.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag queens, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected,and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is somehow in the best interest to the United&lt;br /&gt;
States.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
22. You have to believe that it's okay to give Federal workers the day off on Christmas Day .........but it's not okay to say &amp;quot;Merry Christmas&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
[[User:Thiudareiks|Thiudareiks]] 06:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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:&amp;quot;You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.&amp;quot; Speaking as a filthy pinko liberal, this is actually pretty funny. [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 00:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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::Cool.  You got one of these for Conservatives, too?  --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:07, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Positive Liberal Contributions To Society ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Are there any? --[[User:RJest|RJest]] 17:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)&lt;br /&gt;
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Of course there are&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Niccolò Machiavelli (Florence, 1469-1527), best known for his Il Principe was the founder of realist political philosophy, advocated republican government, citizen armies, division of power, protection of personal property, and restraint of government expenditure as being necessary to the liberties of a republic&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Desiderius Erasmus (Netherlands, 1466-1536) was an advocate of the doctrine now known as humanism, critic of entrenched interests, irrationality and superstition. Erasmusian societies formed across Europe, to some extent in response to the turbulence of the Reformation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Hugo Grotius or Hugo de Groot (Netherlands, 1583-1645), laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law, in his book Mare Liberum (Free Seas) formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory and all nations were free to use it for seafaring trade&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Hobbes (England, 1588-1679) theorized that government is the result of individual actions and human traits, and that it was motivated primarily by &amp;quot;interest&amp;quot;, a term which would become crucial in the development of a liberal theory of government and political economy, since it is the foundation of the idea that individuals can be self-governing and self-regulating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Baruch Spinoza (Netherlands, 1632-1677) is in his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus and Tractatus Politicus a proto-liberal defending the value of separation of church and state as well as forms of democracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The notions of John Locke (United Kingdom, 1632-1704) of a &amp;quot;government with the consent of the governed&amp;quot; and man's natural rights—life, liberty, and estate (property) as well on tolerance,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*John Trenchard (United Kingdom, 1662-1723) was co-author, with Thomas Gordon of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomas Gordon (United Kingdom, 169?-1750) was co-author, with John Trenchard of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Benjamin Franklin (United States, 1706-1790) was an inventor, scientist, writer, entrepreneur, diplomat and statesman. He called for the end of mercantilism while advocating free trade, industrialization, the abolition of slavery, free public libraries, democratic government and national unity.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jean-Jacques Rousseau (France, 1712-1778) promulgated the idea that men were naturally free, but had to be educated to live in society. This required a natural liberty and a &amp;quot;national will&amp;quot; which could be directed to improvement of the society. He is famous for the quote &amp;quot;men are born free, but are everywhere in chains&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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Should I go on. OK good. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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** Wow... comprehensive, concise and encyclopedic. I propose we incorporate the above comment into the page itself. A new subsection, perhaps - &amp;quot;Liberal contributions to Western thought&amp;quot;? [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 22:11, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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*I ripped it from Wikipedia, however i thought it was expressed very intelligently and there is much more&lt;br /&gt;
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::: Too bad none of the above are liberals in the modern meaning of the word.  Think [[Benjamin Franklin]] supported &lt;br /&gt;
[[abortion]]???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:39, 20 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::How about Martin Luther King Jr., Albert Einstein, or Abraham Lincoln? (Yes, Honest Abe was a Liberal by the standards of his time, since slavery was the status quo.  A Liberal so despised by half of the population that they were willing to '''commit treason''' rather than put up with him.) --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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As for the above statement maybe Benjamin did not support abortion but remember things 50+ years ago were very conservative remember liberal means progress. [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]] 01:15, 22 March 2008 (EDT) [[User:Cal05000|Cal05000]]&lt;br /&gt;
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:As Robert Anton Wilson has said, you can go from Liberal to Conservative in 25 years without changing a single opinion. --[[User:Gulik5|Gulik5]] 13:05, 29 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Citation Request ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It looks like my citation request may have deleted more than a few lines.  How did this happen?  Can it be corrected? --Jimmy 14:24, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I think you might have edited an older version of the page. The line you wanted to add a fact to was not even there in the version prior to your edit. I have reverted it to the version right before yours. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:23, 26 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Richard Dawkins/Barack Obama ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I'm glad someone added the wikilinks to the last gem added - all it now takes is for someone to click the links, then consult the Talk pages for those articles to see how stupendously, amusingly wrong that entry actually is.  Though to save people the trouble, here it is - Oxford University not only say that Richard Dawkins is, in fact a professor, but actually awarded him a position with the title of the 'Professor of the Public Understanding of Science'[http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/1995-6/supps/2_4408.htm#4Ref].  Barack Obama was a 'Senior Lecturer' at the University of Chicago, and they released a press notice saying,'Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors'[http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media/index.html].  So, going by the examples listed, 'liberals', in fact, call people 'professors' when...erm...they are. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 10:26, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Well to be fair, Oxford entered the fray after the tempest started, and post-facto seems to have, err, re-arranged its thinking, lol.  Typical [[liberal deceit]]. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 20:17, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Sorry about leaping in there with the deletion, TK. It just seemed (a) below the belt, since there are plenty of dubious PhD's espousing conservative views, and (b) out of place in a list detailing ideological stances. I still don't see the need for it, I'm afraid. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 21:53, 31 March 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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::No, Oxford granted Dawkins his professorship in 1996.  The link I provided above demonstrates this.  The 'tempest' (I would actually call it more a 'storm in a teacup') started in 2007, when a certain person here tried to throw doubt on Dawkins' academic credentials in what can only be described, quite frankly, as a blatent ad hominem attack. [[User:Urushnor|Urushnor]] 16:32, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
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== Reverts ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Could we discuss on the talk page instead of having an edit war? Thanks. In case it's ambiguous, I'm talking about the inclusion of &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:22, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:Personally, I'm in favour of deleting it, since it's not actually a political stance. What's more, it's an ''ad hominem'' generalisation (I didn't even know such things were possible until I came to Conservapedia... ;-D ) [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:14, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: The reason for my removal of said bullet point is firstly that it is not a political belief (which the introductory sentence says is the object of the list), it is an act which some editors think is typical or generally the case with liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
: Secondly, I would entirely disagree with the notion that liberals engage in such an act; I would also entirely disagree that conservatives do, or for that matter any definable section of society. &lt;br /&gt;
: Unless someone can find a reference which shows that a significant percentage of liberals routinely call similarly-minded individuals 'professor' - which they won't - I will believe that the editor that included it either fabricated such information or believes it to be true despite not having studied the debating habits of a large proportion of liberals. All information here should have a reference, particularly if it is likely to be contested, regardless of the effect that it has on the arguments of such editors, whatever their ideology be. If it is impossible to provide a reference, then such information should not be included. &lt;br /&gt;
: I would therefore agree with Underscoreb's comments. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 18:19, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::The discussion page (and archives) of Dawkins provides ample proof of what latitude liberals are willing to cut those of like-mind. As well as Andy's thoughts on the matter, and his own conclusion that the included item is accurate. Its inclusion here was suggested by Andy as well. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:23, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::: Surely we can do better than that, TK - what you seem to be saying is, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to some liberals once, and they said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. The second part of your argument seems to be, &amp;quot;Well, I talked to Andy once, and he said that, so that's probably what all of them are like&amp;quot;. Leaving aside the argument of whether those figures have or haven't earned their credentials, this statement is tarring all liberals with the same brush, based on a conversation you witnessed. It's not the most rigorous methodology. :-D [[User:Underscoreb|Underscoreb]] 18:34, 1 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I agree with Uderscoreb's reply to TK's comments. TK - your reasoning is very illogical: it relies on the premise that: &amp;quot;if some X have character Y, then it must be a common trait of X to display Y&amp;quot; The influence of the people that agree with your arguments has no effect on the validity of such an argument;  as has been used on the [[Global warming controversy]] article: &amp;quot;In any event, it is important to remember that public opinion does not change the physical reality. Even if 100% of people of both parties believe in anthropogenic climate change, if the reality is that mankind is not responsible, then public opinion to the contrary does not change that fact&amp;quot;. Conservapedia rightly recognises this argument, why does it not stand here? Surely you must agree that generalisation of the kind used to justify inclusion of said liberal trait entirely falls flat on condition of its logical worth; you must do, otherwise dragging 'Andy' into the argument would not be necessary. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 07:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
LOL!  Sounds utterly, almost European in logic, and certainly liberal. Here in America, we have a saying:  &amp;quot;You made your bed. Now lie in it.&amp;quot; Please don't expect the rest of the world to agree with your efforts to hide from plain view your most obvious traits. Perhaps Ed Poor will consider a reading plan for you so that the veil can be lifted from your eyes. &amp;quot;Andy&amp;quot; is a noted expert on liberal apology, and as such, always germain to the discussions here. It is clear you recognize that fact because of your stated aversion it!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 07:51, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:''European'' logic? Just logic, I reckon. Good old conservative logic. American logic. Ancient Greek logic. Logical logic. BTW, I also agree with Underscoreb. The discussion page on Dawkins proves nothing - even if we accept the premise that Dawkins himself is an evil liberal. You cannot prove a generality by quoting a number of instances. (And you certainly can't prove anything by appealing to authority.) [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 08:07, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Don't be a d***. You know full well that rational thought is not restricted to the laws of [[deduction]]; see also [[induction]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] &amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 08:10, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::TK, nobody needs a veil to hide 'obvious truths' if they are simply illogical. And please do not use ''ad hominem'' arguments (like labelling anything I say 'European') to detract from arguments that you disagree with, and divert attention away from the point of the debate. If I said that &amp;quot;Conservepedia editors use ''ad hominem'' arguments to prove their views&amp;quot;, you would rightly disagree, as I would, because clearly it is not true, despite evidence that some do (right here). Equally, saying that liberals believe in &amp;quot;Calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is illogical - some might, as might some centrists, some conservatives, some Africans, some women, any polity one can think of - but it is extremely obvious that it is not something that liberals or any polity is defined by more than any other. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:14, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::Ed Poor - yes I do, but you should know that there are well-justified problems with the validity of induction, particularly where the observed classes are not objects but thoughts, ideologies and polities. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 09:29, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::I believe the phrase you are looking for, EU, is [[Logical_fallacy#Overgeneralization|overgeneralization]]. Also, just as a point of order: all arguments being made here are inductive. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 10:20, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:::::Thanks for the term - that is definitely one of the relevant acts. Yes this discussion is inductive, well pointed out =) Over-generalisation is all too common; generalisation is a justified way of inferring information about the whole from that of a part, but it is very easy to wrongly use it in situations where it is impossible to predict the nature of the whole from a part, as is the case in point, and the error used in such analyses as the famously disproved 'all swans are white' case. Over-generalisation can lead to such senseless acts as discrimination, and, as proved by this article, fallacies in the description of disagreeable ideologies. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 10:44, 2 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
May I make a suggestion?  Keep the disputed sentence, but move it over to [[liberal style]].  It fits in very nicely over there.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 17:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I agree, it's definitely more an example of liberal style than it is a political position, as all the rest of the items on the list are. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 17:51, 3 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::Pragmatically, I support such a move also; despite mine and others' misgivings about its legitimacy, at least it is more appropriate there. --[[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 14:09, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::''Pragmatically'' what this encyclopedia needs is less &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;obfuscation&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;, and chipping away by internationalists, of the conservative, American, POV of Conservapedia, to make it read neutral.  Moving something ''Europeans'' and liberals don't agree with, to another article, is censorship. If liberal users disagree with the conservative point of view of CP, they should give up trying to change it, and find a liberal/internationalist encyclopedia to edit, IMO.  If they did, two-thirds of these needless arguments would be eliminated, IMO. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:04, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::I think RossC's suggestion is a good one. Not because &amp;quot;calling anyone they agree with a 'professor'...&amp;quot; is not a liberal trait (though no one has yet demonstrated that it is), but because (as a couple of others have said) it isn't a political or quasi-political belief like the other items in the list, and it looks out of place here. [[User:Humblpi|Humblpi]] 17:03, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Well, I added it at Andy's suggestion, made on his talk page, as the edit note clearly states,  so the question as to if it belongs ''here'' is pretty moot, I think.  I disagree that Schlafly hasn't demonstrated that fact, 100 times over, on the Dawkins or Obama talk pages.  I do agree that it appears only liberals disagree on that. It is an argument certainly older than CP, between conservatives and liberals, and all the more a bone of contention between Europeans and United States conservatives.  It boils down to a clear disagreement between ''Internationalists'' (and they are primarily liberal) and those of us who support CP, which was founded as a U.S. Christian/Conservative - friendly encyclopedia, to continue to be true to that.  While I wouldn't want to ignore the world as ''Internationalists'' see it, or wish it to be, that outlook is already embraced by Wikipedia, several thousand times larger than CP, so the POV is more than adequately served. So, while wanting to acknowledge what the liberal &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot; is, it cannot, nor should it be, incorporated into CP's articles, other than to point out what those who believe in it think, and why American conservatives think they are wrong.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Some, mostly from other countries, while they might be Christians, ''certainly are not United States conservatives'', and even they seek to impose their unique, anti (or contrary to)-U.S. point of view on CP, trying, bit by bit, to remove anything they consider &amp;quot;U.S.-centric&amp;quot;.  They are among those, like the liberals, who seek to fundamentally change the founding precepts of Conservapedia, and turn it towards the so-called &amp;quot;world view&amp;quot;.  While I don't seek to diminish what they believe (they cannot help it, being used to a &amp;quot;Wikipedian World&amp;quot; and not Americans) their role here, editors or admins alike, it seems to me, is either to get on board with CP's point of view, or at least stop the constant arguing that distracts from more content being made, and discouraging conservative editors from doing so. Since the actual practice of &amp;quot;conservatism&amp;quot; outside the United States, is fundamentally different, that puts CP automatically at odds with Europeans and others who might say they are &amp;quot;conservative&amp;quot; but in actual political practice their philosophy is closer to United States liberals. &lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 18:50, 4 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::You seem to be confusing censorship with moving something to a different place; you well know that this suggestion is not censorship. Secondly, you seem to be, rather paranoiacally, confusing the legitimate opinion of a sentence's logicality/legitimacy with some form of opinion, which (again with the personal attacks) stems from the idea that just because some here are liberal, not American, internationalist, means that their objections are part of some anti-American, anti-CP, anti-conservative or anti-whatever viewpoint quest to annoy, obfuscate or slow down progress. The reason that I, and a couple of others, object to that sentence is nothing to do with opinion, just logic, and the suggestion to move it to another article is just about appropriateness. A list about conservative positions would not include anything that isn't a position (like professor-calling), same as a list on liberal positions would not. [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:30, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:::'''''Personal attacks?''''' On whom?  Liberals in general?  Some particular liberal? I demand an apology!  CP is indeed an American ''conservative'' encyclopedia.  You somehow seem intent on arguing forever, obstructing, until your personal POV  (self-declared as logic) is accepted as the model of rationality. And you somehow mistake sticking to one's principles for paranoia, lol. I see you (not me) have resorted to personal insults, Europeanunion.  Called me paranoid, didn't you?  That is indeed a bit different than making a generalized (but true) statement about liberals and internationalists. Since you are a liberal, all that you think, all of your logic, is colored through that prism. The article was locked, by an Admin, for a reason, and that reason was removal of material conservatives deem appropriate, and suggested by the Owner.  If you don't like it, go to his page and take him to task for daring to be so illogical as to suggest adding it. But remember this isn't a mobocracy. Conservative thought will always prevail here. I hope you enjoy your weekend!  --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 09:09, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
::::It is clear that we will never see eye-to-eye over this issue, or the nature of each other's arguments. I express my preference for deleting the sentence, but recognise the impossibility of that in this situation. I express my preference that the sentence be moved to a more appropriate article, and hope that this occurs. But I don't think that there's anything more to add to substantiate my views, or to be achieved by further arguing here, so I will leave the discussion, unless someone asks for my opinion on a development. I will instead continue adding information in my field of experience with less controversial articles which are not personal favourites of sysops. Thanks for your hope TK, I hope everyone has a nice day =) [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 11:23, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::::It's unfortunate that we could not come to an agreement on this matter :( [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:58, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well, given the first few posts here, with the item being unilaterally removed without any discussion, ''and Europeanunion calling me a paranoid, and accusing me making personal attacks'', &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;and not apologizing for either statement when asked to&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt;; did anyone here really think that was the way to accommodation or agreement? I sense a double standard here, with some people being pretty free at calling posts &amp;quot;trolling&amp;quot; when they don't agree with the POV, and yet allowing others to make personal attacks/name calling, and never saying a word.  That is neither Christian, fair or conservative, is it?  And this from the same people extolling their &amp;quot;logic&amp;quot; and fairness.    --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 17:41, 5 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
:I was going to concentrate on other things on CP, but I believe your previous post deserves a reply. I did not call you paranoid, but that you &amp;quot;rather paranoiacally&amp;quot; confused an objection based on legitimacy with an opinion based on where I live et cetera - the word paranoia being defined as &amp;quot;suspicion of others that is not based on fact&amp;quot;. The personal attacks were the ''ad hominem'' arguments that you used - the definition of that phrase is &amp;quot;replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument&amp;quot;. I do not apologise for stating that, but I am sorry if you feel it is an injustice (I do not). [[User:Europeanunion|Europeanunion]] 06:46, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::So, even a statement about the thinking of liberals is branded &amp;quot;ad hominem&amp;quot; arguments now, simply because you refuse to accept what liberals think and do?  I will note that an argument isn't a personal attack as you labeled it. And I am sorry, but this is not Wikipedia, so your assertion of some rule that CP doesn't have, nor endorse, is specious. This encyclopedia has hundreds, thousands of entries, cataloging liberal deceit and liberal thinking, and their attempts, like your statement above, to brand any contrary thinking to liberal tenets as an &amp;quot;attack&amp;quot;. As for &amp;quot;paranoia&amp;quot;, well, your own post above clearly demonstrates CP's suspicion of liberals is well-founded. --&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;#1E90FF&amp;quot; face=&amp;quot;Comic Sans MS&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User:TK|₮K]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;sup&amp;gt;&amp;lt;font color=&amp;quot;DC143C&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[[User_Talk:TK|/Talk]]&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/sup&amp;gt; 16:06, 6 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Affront ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As someone who doesn't proscribe to any particular political ideology, but would be labeled as a liberal, I'm honestly quite offended by this article. This isn't an encyclopedic entry, it's a systematic assault on liberalism. I understand that it's the opposing viewpoint from the reigning one here, but you have to have some level of integrity. How would you feel if I made a Liberapedia and filled the &amp;quot;Conservative&amp;quot; page with unproven remarks about how your political ideology is based exclusively on greed? You can't claim to be &amp;quot;The Trustworthy Encyclopedia&amp;quot; when you have articles like this. It's just disgusting. You could go ahead and write a section on why liberal viewpoints conflict with yours, but having the entire damned page filled with hate and bigotry is horrible. [[User:Shortcat|Shortcat]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
: You didn't cite any specific examples in the entry to support your rant.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:51, 10 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:: Support of obscenity and pornography as a First Amendment right[4] -&amp;gt; This is simply untrue. Instead of stating a fact (liberals tend to support free speech), you're saying that liberals believe porn is their constitutional right. That's bull.&lt;br /&gt;
:: Calling anyone they agree with a &amp;quot;professor&amp;quot; regardless of whether he earned that distinction based on a real peer review of his work (see, e.g., Richard Dawkins and Barack Obama). -&amp;gt; What?&lt;br /&gt;
:: Some argue that liberals typically support economic policy similar to that of fascism. [7] -&amp;gt; So liberals are fascists now? That's just plain offensive.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== Typo ==&lt;br /&gt;
Implementation is spelled incorrectly in the lead. --[[User:Ampersand|Ampersand]] 23:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== WBC is a &amp;quot;Liberal Organization&amp;quot;? ==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I usually refrain from capslocking, but WHAT? The [[Westboro Baptist Church]] is a ''liberal organization''? If the article wasn't protected, I would suspect vandalism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A hate group that condemns homosexuality, Roman Catholics, Muslims and Jews, as well as Swedes, Canadians, Irish, British, Mexicans and Americans is a ''liberal organization''? This smells like [[political identification bias]] to me - a conservative editor doesn't like WBC, so it ''must'' be liberal! --[[User:JBrown|JBrown]] 10:00, 11 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But WBC and Phelps hate the US military, and have made it their primary&lt;br /&gt;
mission to demonstrate and publicize this.  Also, he was inarguably a liberal civil&lt;br /&gt;
rights attorney before he turned to his present fixation.  Perhaps where he's taken&lt;br /&gt;
liberalism even justifies a new appellation...  '''hyperliberal''', anyone? &lt;br /&gt;
--[[User:Jamesmason|Jamesmason]] 20:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:GeneralGrievous&amp;diff=474411</id>
		<title>User:GeneralGrievous</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:GeneralGrievous&amp;diff=474411"/>
		<updated>2008-06-15T02:25:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: New page: I am a conservative Christian who happens not to be a loyal Republican. I am '''strongly''' pro-life and absolutely opposed to abortion, but in favor of a lot of gay rights, despite my fir...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;I am a conservative Christian who happens not to be a loyal Republican. I am '''strongly''' pro-life and absolutely opposed to abortion, but in favor of a lot of gay rights, despite my firm belief and conviction that homosexuality is an abomination against nature and a sin in the eyes of God. I have generally libertarian leanings except when it comes to certain issues, such as animal cruelty and child abuse. I also believe in an independent work ethic and do not think individuals should rely on the government for money and financial support. I would describe myself as a compassionate conservative, but I don't always think conservatives are compassionate, which I hope to change. I desperately hope Barack Obama does not enter the White House, as I think it would undermine our core values. I look forward to improving Conservapedia and strengthening the conservative movement.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homophobia&amp;diff=455077</id>
		<title>Homophobia</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homophobia&amp;diff=455077"/>
		<updated>2008-05-17T03:40:31Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The term '''homophobia''' most directly means the &amp;quot;fear of homosexuality&amp;quot; but, as with terms such as xenophobia, also implies a hate or prejudice against homosexuals. The term is used to describe people who openly condemn gays and people who feel uncomfortable around them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is primarily used by people supportive of tolerance to homosexuality, to people who are against said tolerance. Some claim that &amp;quot;it is intended to sound like a form of [[mental illness]]&amp;quot;, but this does not describe its popular use or the definition of the word. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; According to the National Association for Research &amp;amp; Therapy on Homosexuality (NARTH), gay-rights advocate Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D. wrote that the term &amp;quot;homophobia&amp;quot; was useful in pushing forward the gay agenda in our culture. [http://www.narth.com/docs/creates.html Gay Psychologist Creates New Terms for Use in the Social Debate]. &amp;quot;In his paper on homophobia, stigma, and sexual prejudice, Dr. Herek suggests that although the term &amp;quot;homophobia&amp;quot; was useful in pushing forward the gay agenda in our culture, the term may be too limited in its scope today.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For example, NARTH says,&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The term &amp;quot;homophobia&amp;quot; is often used inaccurately to describe any person who objects to homosexual behavior on either moral, psychological or medical grounds. Technically, however, the terms actually denotes a person who has a phobia&amp;amp;mdash;or irrational fear&amp;amp;mdash;of homosexuality. Principled disagreement, therefore, cannot be labeled &amp;quot;homophobia.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html NARTH Position Statements]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Conservative Christians and other people who strongly object to homosexuality often take offense at this term.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Etymology===&lt;br /&gt;
The word comes from combining the Greek prefix ''homo-'', meaning &amp;quot;same&amp;quot;, and suffix ''-phobia'', meaning &amp;quot;fear of&amp;quot;. In its early usage, the term described heterosexual fears that others might think they were homosexual &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.narth.com/docs/creates.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The neologism was promoted by George Weinberg, a gay activist and psychologist, who attempted to define it in clinical literature shortly before the downgrading of homosexuality as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association in 1973.  Weinberg claimed it was &amp;quot;the dread of being in close quarters with homosexuals -- and in the case of homosexuals themselves, selfloathing.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Plummer, David, ''One of the Boys: Masculinity, Homophobia, and Modern Manhood'', [http://books.google.com/books?id=xHGz4f_2_7IC&amp;amp;pg=PA3&amp;amp;ots=U8ktZZgnAk&amp;amp;dq=George+Weinberg+homophobia&amp;amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&amp;amp;sig=d7hjCcZ1uuBlgdLyRjUJwEn51uA#PPA3,M1 pp. 3-4]: &amp;quot;'Homophobia was introduced into the clinical literature by George Weinberg in 1972, in ''Society and the Healthy Homosexual.'' &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term then entered common usage beginning with pornographic publications. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., published ''Beyond 'Homophobia': Thinking About Sexual Prejudice and Stigma in the Twenty-First Century,'' in the April, 2004, issue of Sexuality Research &amp;amp; Social Policy. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term's meaning has not been accepted or agreed upon within the psychological therapeutic community.  William O'Donohue and Christine E. Caselles &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;William O'Donohue and Christine E. Caselles, [http://www.springerlink.com/content/n0264m864t146585/ Homophobia: Conceptual, definitional, and value issues], Journal of Psychopathology and Behavioral Assessment, Volume 15, Number 3, Springer Netherlands, September, 1993. ISSN 0882-2689&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; have concluded based upon research within the therapeutic community a clear understanding of the term has not been adequately evaluated and it is not clear whether the term can be accurately characterized.  They have concluded, &amp;quot;the construct of homophobia, as it is usually used, makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions, much like the former disease construct of homosexuality.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===&amp;quot;Internalized homophobia&amp;quot;===&lt;br /&gt;
The therapeutic community is largely divided between proponents of [[gay gene]] theory who believe a person is born gay and will always be gay, and proponents of [[Reparative therapy]] who believe with sympathy and understanding a homosexual can be relieved of afflictions if they so desire.  Gay gene advocates wish to inform homosexuals that their sexual orientation may be based in genetics, whereas restoration therapy advocates claim that it is to cruel to &amp;quot;brainwash&amp;quot; young people into believing there is no hope of ever leading a &amp;quot;heterosexual lifestyle&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. Joseph Nicolosi reports homosexuality is a symptom of an underlying problem of [[gender identity]]. Nicolosi says,&lt;br /&gt;
:In the classic triadic family we have a sensitive boy who did not get the close, affirming relationship with his father that would have confirmed him in his gender identity, and a mother who is likely to be over-close and standing in the way between father and son. The father was not supportive enough in affirming, recognizing and reinforcing the boy's maleness. &amp;lt;ref name = &amp;quot;griefwork&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[http://www.narth.com/docs/griefwork.html Clinical Issues: Grief Work], Interview: Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nicolosi adds many gay men admit that no matter how liberated they are, they always struggle, on some deeper level, with a sense of inferiority or self-loathing.  Some therapists refer to this as internalized homophobia. Nicolosi attributes this feeling to an internal process, unrelated to social stigma, which precedes same-sex attractions.&amp;lt;ref name = &amp;quot;griefwork&amp;quot;/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Homophobia as an &amp;quot;Irrational Fear&amp;quot; ===&lt;br /&gt;
The suffix &amp;quot;phobia&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Psychologists do not recognize it as a phobia in any generally recognized publication like the DSM IV.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; suggests an irrational fear, but it is most often used as a attack term by [[gay rights]] groups to suggest that opposition to [[homosexuality]] is irrational and hateful.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Eg, this site [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_phob.htm] first defines homophobia as a dread or fear, but says that it includes those who write their Congressmen to oppose same-sex marriage.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Dr. Sander J. Breiner of NARTH has stated, &amp;quot;it would be very valuable for society in general, and therapists in particular, to have a clear picture of homophobia separated from all the other topics that have been lumped under that rubric.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.narth.com/docs/coll-breiner.html HOMOPHOBIA: A Scientific Non-Political Definition], Dr. Sander J. Breiner, National Association for Research and Therapy on Homosexuality, 2003.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Of the myriads of references to the term in popular and other sociologic publications Breiner observes, &amp;quot;There is no personal, internal, institutional, or cultural homophobia. The terms do not exist in the recognized scientific literature...There is only one homophobia, which has been properly defined,&amp;quot; in the the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://anxiety.psy.ohio-state.edu/phobia-d.htm Specific Phobia DSM-IV Criteria]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; developed by the American Psychiatric Association.  Breiner, an advocate of [[Reparative therapy]], acknowledges &amp;quot;There is no doubt that homophobia exists&amp;quot; as an irrational fear among both homosexuals and heterosexuals.  2 Timothy 1:7 says, &amp;quot;For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://bible.cc/2_timothy/1-7.htm 2 Timothy 1:7]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Violence against gays ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1990, Congress passed the Hate Crime Statistics Act, which required the Attorney General to collect data about crimes that manifest evidence of prejudice based on race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.  In 1994, lawmakers amended the Hate Crime Statistics Act to include bias against persons with disabilities.  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reporting Program, Hate Crime Statistics 2005:  About Hate Crime[http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/abouthc.htm]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2005, law enforcement agencies reported 1,171 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias, 348 of which are property crimes which includes theft and grafitti. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Department of Justice — Federal Bureau of Investigation, [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/table4.htm Uniform Crime Reports], Offense Type by Bias Motivation, 2005 Table 4. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;   While the FBI reports statistics by victim class or bias motivation, race, religion, sexual orientation and disability, the FBI does not report the sexual orientation of known offenders.  Thus a conclusion that all offenders are heterosexual is faulty, and the methodology does not measure gay-on-gay violence.  In all of 2004, there was 1 anti-homosexual murder in the United States, and the FBI has reported none since. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Department of Justice — Federal Bureau of Investigation, [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/tables/HateCrime2004.pdf Uniform Crime Reports], Offense Type by Bias Motivation, 2004 Table 4. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Of greater concern among homosexuals is the higher risk and more frequent incidence of [[Homosexuality#Homosexual_Couples_and_Violent_Behavior|Gay Domestic Abuse]] in same sex domestic partnerships than among the heterosexual population.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While 818 bias motivated crimes of persons against gays were reported nationwide in 2004, a earlier study found 5046 incidences of homosexual  domestic violence in only nine cities, all of which are crimes of persons.  The subject of homosexual domestic violence has not been researched with anything near the thoroughness afforded to heterosexual domestic violence, however the uniformity of conclusions based upon varying sample sizes all point to a prevalence ranging from 20%-35% of homsexual domestic partnerships. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://ncavp.org/common/document_files/Reports/2001ncavpdvrpt.pdf Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Domestic Violence in 2001,]  National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, 2002.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Homosexuality]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Opposition to homosexuality]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gay agenda]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gender identity disorder]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Heterophobia]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.adl.org/poisoning_web/homophobia.asp Homophobia Online: The Westboro Baptist Church], Anti-Defamation League (2001). Retrieved 05/23/07. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Politics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Homosexuality]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homophobia&amp;diff=455074</id>
		<title>Homophobia</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homophobia&amp;diff=455074"/>
		<updated>2008-05-17T03:36:38Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;The term '''homophobia''' most directly means the &amp;quot;fear of homosexuality&amp;quot; but, as with terms such as xenophobia, also implies a hate or prejudice against homosexuals. The term is used to describe people who openly condemn gays and people who feel uncomfortable around them.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is primarily used by people supportive of tolerance to homosexuality, to people who are against said tolerance. Some claim that &amp;quot;it is intended to sound like a form of [[mental illness]]&amp;quot;, but this does not describe its popular use or the definition of the word. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt; According to the National Association for Research &amp;amp; Therapy on Homosexuality (NARTH), gay-rights advocate Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D. wrote that the term &amp;quot;homophobia&amp;quot; was useful in pushing forward the gay agenda in our culture. [http://www.narth.com/docs/creates.html Gay Psychologist Creates New Terms for Use in the Social Debate]. &amp;quot;In his paper on homophobia, stigma, and sexual prejudice, Dr. Herek suggests that although the term &amp;quot;homophobia&amp;quot; was useful in pushing forward the gay agenda in our culture, the term may be too limited in its scope today.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For example, NARTH says,&lt;br /&gt;
:&amp;quot;The term &amp;quot;homophobia&amp;quot; is often used inaccurately to describe any person who objects to homosexual behavior on either moral, psychological or medical grounds. Technically, however, the terms actually denotes a person who has a phobia&amp;amp;mdash;or irrational fear&amp;amp;mdash;of homosexuality. Principled disagreement, therefore, cannot be labeled &amp;quot;homophobia.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html NARTH Position Statements]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Conservative Christians and other people who strongly object to homosexuality often take offensive at this term.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Etymology===&lt;br /&gt;
The word comes from combining the Greek prefix ''homo-'', meaning &amp;quot;same&amp;quot;, and suffix ''-phobia'', meaning &amp;quot;fear of&amp;quot;. In its early usage, the term described heterosexual fears that others might think they were homosexual &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.narth.com/docs/creates.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The neologism was promoted by George Weinberg, a gay activist and psychologist, who attempted to define it in clinical literature shortly before the downgrading of homosexuality as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association in 1973.  Weinberg claimed it was &amp;quot;the dread of being in close quarters with homosexuals -- and in the case of homosexuals themselves, selfloathing.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Plummer, David, ''One of the Boys: Masculinity, Homophobia, and Modern Manhood'', [http://books.google.com/books?id=xHGz4f_2_7IC&amp;amp;pg=PA3&amp;amp;ots=U8ktZZgnAk&amp;amp;dq=George+Weinberg+homophobia&amp;amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&amp;amp;sig=d7hjCcZ1uuBlgdLyRjUJwEn51uA#PPA3,M1 pp. 3-4]: &amp;quot;'Homophobia was introduced into the clinical literature by George Weinberg in 1972, in ''Society and the Healthy Homosexual.'' &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  The term then entered common usage beginning with pornographic publications. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., published ''Beyond 'Homophobia': Thinking About Sexual Prejudice and Stigma in the Twenty-First Century,'' in the April, 2004, issue of Sexuality Research &amp;amp; Social Policy. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The term's meaning has not been accepted or agreed upon within the psychological therapeutic community.  William O'Donohue and Christine E. Caselles &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;William O'Donohue and Christine E. Caselles, [http://www.springerlink.com/content/n0264m864t146585/ Homophobia: Conceptual, definitional, and value issues], Journal of Psychopathology and Behavioral Assessment, Volume 15, Number 3, Springer Netherlands, September, 1993. ISSN 0882-2689&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; have concluded based upon research within the therapeutic community a clear understanding of the term has not been adequately evaluated and it is not clear whether the term can be accurately characterized.  They have concluded, &amp;quot;the construct of homophobia, as it is usually used, makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions, much like the former disease construct of homosexuality.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===&amp;quot;Internalized homophobia&amp;quot;===&lt;br /&gt;
The therapeutic community is largely divided between proponents of [[gay gene]] theory who believe a person is born gay and will always be gay, and proponents of [[Reparative therapy]] who believe with sympathy and understanding a homosexual can be relieved of afflictions if they so desire.  Gay gene advocates wish to inform homosexuals that their sexual orientation may be based in genetics, whereas restoration therapy advocates claim that it is to cruel to &amp;quot;brainwash&amp;quot; young people into believing there is no hope of ever leading a &amp;quot;heterosexual lifestyle&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. Joseph Nicolosi reports homosexuality is a symptom of an underlying problem of [[gender identity]]. Nicolosi says,&lt;br /&gt;
:In the classic triadic family we have a sensitive boy who did not get the close, affirming relationship with his father that would have confirmed him in his gender identity, and a mother who is likely to be over-close and standing in the way between father and son. The father was not supportive enough in affirming, recognizing and reinforcing the boy's maleness. &amp;lt;ref name = &amp;quot;griefwork&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[http://www.narth.com/docs/griefwork.html Clinical Issues: Grief Work], Interview: Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nicolosi adds many gay men admit that no matter how liberated they are, they always struggle, on some deeper level, with a sense of inferiority or self-loathing.  Some therapists refer to this as internalized homophobia. Nicolosi attributes this feeling to an internal process, unrelated to social stigma, which precedes same-sex attractions.&amp;lt;ref name = &amp;quot;griefwork&amp;quot;/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Homophobia as an &amp;quot;Irrational Fear&amp;quot; ===&lt;br /&gt;
The suffix &amp;quot;phobia&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Psychologists do not recognize it as a phobia in any generally recognized publication like the DSM IV.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; suggests an irrational fear, but it is most often used as a attack term by [[gay rights]] groups to suggest that opposition to [[homosexuality]] is irrational and hateful.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Eg, this site [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_phob.htm] first defines homophobia as a dread or fear, but says that it includes those who write their Congressmen to oppose same-sex marriage.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Dr. Sander J. Breiner of NARTH has stated, &amp;quot;it would be very valuable for society in general, and therapists in particular, to have a clear picture of homophobia separated from all the other topics that have been lumped under that rubric.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.narth.com/docs/coll-breiner.html HOMOPHOBIA: A Scientific Non-Political Definition], Dr. Sander J. Breiner, National Association for Research and Therapy on Homosexuality, 2003.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Of the myriads of references to the term in popular and other sociologic publications Breiner observes, &amp;quot;There is no personal, internal, institutional, or cultural homophobia. The terms do not exist in the recognized scientific literature...There is only one homophobia, which has been properly defined,&amp;quot; in the the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://anxiety.psy.ohio-state.edu/phobia-d.htm Specific Phobia DSM-IV Criteria]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; developed by the American Psychiatric Association.  Breiner, an advocate of [[Reparative therapy]], acknowledges &amp;quot;There is no doubt that homophobia exists&amp;quot; as an irrational fear among both homosexuals and heterosexuals.  2 Timothy 1:7 says, &amp;quot;For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://bible.cc/2_timothy/1-7.htm 2 Timothy 1:7]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
=== Violence against gays ===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1990, Congress passed the Hate Crime Statistics Act, which required the Attorney General to collect data about crimes that manifest evidence of prejudice based on race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.  In 1994, lawmakers amended the Hate Crime Statistics Act to include bias against persons with disabilities.  &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reporting Program, Hate Crime Statistics 2005:  About Hate Crime[http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/abouthc.htm]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2005, law enforcement agencies reported 1,171 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias, 348 of which are property crimes which includes theft and grafitti. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Department of Justice — Federal Bureau of Investigation, [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/table4.htm Uniform Crime Reports], Offense Type by Bias Motivation, 2005 Table 4. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;   While the FBI reports statistics by victim class or bias motivation, race, religion, sexual orientation and disability, the FBI does not report the sexual orientation of known offenders.  Thus a conclusion that all offenders are heterosexual is faulty, and the methodology does not measure gay-on-gay violence.  In all of 2004, there was 1 anti-homosexual murder in the United States, and the FBI has reported none since. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;U.S. Department of Justice — Federal Bureau of Investigation, [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/tables/HateCrime2004.pdf Uniform Crime Reports], Offense Type by Bias Motivation, 2004 Table 4. &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  Of greater concern among homosexuals is the higher risk and more frequent incidence of [[Homosexuality#Homosexual_Couples_and_Violent_Behavior|Gay Domestic Abuse]] in same sex domestic partnerships than among the heterosexual population.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While 818 bias motivated crimes of persons against gays were reported nationwide in 2004, a earlier study found 5046 incidences of homosexual  domestic violence in only nine cities, all of which are crimes of persons.  The subject of homosexual domestic violence has not been researched with anything near the thoroughness afforded to heterosexual domestic violence, however the uniformity of conclusions based upon varying sample sizes all point to a prevalence ranging from 20%-35% of homsexual domestic partnerships. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://ncavp.org/common/document_files/Reports/2001ncavpdvrpt.pdf Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Domestic Violence in 2001,]  National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, 2002.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Homosexuality]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Opposition to homosexuality]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gay agenda]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gender identity disorder]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Heterophobia]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist|2}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.adl.org/poisoning_web/homophobia.asp Homophobia Online: The Westboro Baptist Church], Anti-Defamation League (2001). Retrieved 05/23/07. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Politics]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Homosexuality]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_in_the_media&amp;diff=453394</id>
		<title>Homosexuality in the media</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Homosexuality_in_the_media&amp;diff=453394"/>
		<updated>2008-05-15T03:18:54Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;In respect to '''homosexuality in the media''',  in the [[Western World]] the media is generally accepting of homosexuality to the extent that is socially acceptable to its readers.  For example, the [[Traditional Values Coalition]] states the following regarding the reporting of [[homosexuality]] and the [[United States]] media:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|The [[National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association]] has hundreds of members and is heavily funded by [[Hearst Corporation|Hearst newspapers]], [[Knight-Ridder]], [[CBS News]], [[CNN]], [[Gannett Company|Gannett]], [[NBC]], [[Los Angeles Times]], [[Fox News]], and more. Major newspapers throughout the U.S. have homosexual activists on their staffs who filter what you read about homosexuality.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/Homosexuality101.pdf&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Farah.jpg|thumbnail|200px|[[Joseph Farah]]]]&lt;br /&gt;
In regards to how much influence the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association has with respect to homosexuality in the media, the organization [[Accuracy in Media]] reported the following from the group's 1999 annual convention: &amp;quot;In his keynote speech, journalist Charles Kaiser boasted that &amp;quot;the editor and the publisher of every major news organization in America, except for [[Peter Jennings]], has by now attended [one of our events].&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;aim3367&amp;quot;&amp;gt;http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A3367_0_2_0_C/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Joseph Farah]], who founded [[WorldNetDaily]], wrote an article on the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association (NGJA) in which he stated that he had covered the group for some time.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;wnd&amp;quot;&amp;gt;http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15046&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; However, it wasn't until their 10th anniversary that the shed the guise of portraying themselves as an objective professional organization that promotes higher journalistic standards in regards to the issue of homosexuality and showed themselves as promoters of a [[Homosexual Agenda|homosexual activist agenda]] that attempts to gain special rights.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;wnd&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In September of 2000, Mr. Farah stated the following regarding the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|It is...a group that has bent so far toward changing the newsroom culture that the big debate in [[San Francisco]] was whether journalists should even bother getting other points of view on homosexuals' issues and stories. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did you catch that? What was on the table at the NLGJA conference was the question of whether those with differing viewpoints on homosexuality and the special &amp;quot;rights&amp;quot; activists are asserting for them based on their behavior should even have a say in news stories. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
CBS correspondent and NLJGA member Jeffrey Kofman made his thinking clear: &amp;quot;The argument (is): Why do we constantly see in coverage of gay and lesbian, [[bisexual]] and [[transgender]] issues the homophobes and the fag-haters quoted in stories when, of course, we don't do that with Jews, blacks, et cetera?&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Paula Madison, vice president of diversity at NBC and news director for the NBC's New York City affiliate WNBC, added: &amp;quot;I agree with him. I don't see why we would seek out ... the absurd, inane point of view just to get another point of view.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Kofman rejoined: &amp;quot;All of us have seen and continue to see a lot of coverage that includes perspectives on gay issues that include people who just simply are intolerant and perhaps not qualified as well.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This was [[Political Correctness|political correctness]] gone wild. &amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;wnd&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joseph Farah makes an excellent point above regarding journalist objectivity and homosexual activist journalist given the American Media's unwillingness to cover some of the unpleasant [[Homosexuality Statistics|facts about homosexuality]].  For example, John Cloud is a homosexual activist who writes for [[Time magazine]] and wrote the October 10, 1995 cover story for Time Magazine which was entitled “The Battle Over [[Teen Homosexuality|Gay Teens]].”&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;trv&amp;quot;&amp;gt;http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2460&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;  John Cloud’s article rendered a positive portrayal homosexual teens who are establishing networks of Gay Straight Alliance clubs on campuses all over the United States.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;trv&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;  According to the Traditional Values Coalition, most readers of Time magazine were unaware that John Cloud is a homosexual who had previously written for the [[liberal]] Washington City Paper in Washington, DC. about his visit to a &amp;quot;homosexual sex orgy club in Washington, DC.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;trv&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Accuracy in Media]] stated the following regarding a convention of the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Media organizations which underwrote the convention included NBC News, Times Inc., Turner Broadcasting, Knight-Ridder, the Washington Post and Fox News Network. That’s right - Fox News. This is supposed to be a conservative network. ABC, NBC, CBS, the New York Times, and USA Today all sent recruiters to the event, to hire open gays as journalists. Fitzpatrick comments, &amp;quot;By treating the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association as a legitimate counterpart to black and Hispanic journalists’ associations, these media organizations showed that they agree with the notion that homosexuals, a group defined by behavior rather than immutable characteristics, constitute a bona fide minority.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;aim3367&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
===Homosexuality in the Media and the Influence of the New York Times===&lt;br /&gt;
[[Image:Arthursulzbergerjr.jpg|right|thumb|Arthur Sulzberger Jr.]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[John Stossel]] is an author, consumer reporter, and a co-anchor for the [[ABC News]] show [[20/20]]. [[Cybercast News Service]] states the following regarding regarding the influence of the [[New York Times]] and [[Washington Post]] on other media:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|While the newspapers reach only a fraction of people compared to the television networks, he said radio and television producers rely heavily on their contents.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The reason the Times, and to a lesser extent the Post, are so important, and they are, is because the TV and radio - all of the media - copy it sycophantically,&amp;quot; he [John Stossel] said. &amp;quot;That's how bias at the Times becomes bias in other media.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200401/CUL20040128a.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In regards to the issue of homosexuality and the New York Times, the [[New York Times|New York Times clearly promotes the homosexual agenda]].&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;aim3014&amp;quot;&amp;gt;http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A3014_0_2_0_C/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.cnsnews.com/facts/2007/facts2007914.asp&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A1442_0_2_0_C/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Accuracy in Media quotes a report by [[Peter LaBarbera]] stating that Richard Berke, the national political correspondent for the New York Times, made an appearance on behalf of the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association and revealed that three-quarters of the people who now decide what goes on the front page of the New York Times are &amp;quot;not so closeted homosexuals.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;aim3014&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Coverage of the Murders of Jesse Dirkhising and Matthew Shephard===&lt;br /&gt;
Accuracy in Media states the following regarding [[Liberal bias|liberal media bias]] in regards to the issue of homosexuality in the media:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|A year ago we had raised the issue of [[Jesse Dirkhising]], the 13 year-old boy who was raped and murdered by two homosexuals in Arkansas in September 1999. The media's general failure to cover the murder stands in sharp contrast to the massive coverage of the death of [[Matthew Shepard]], the gay college student in Wyoming. The Times [New York Times] hadn't published a word on the Dirkhising case.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A1006_0_2_0_C/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In respect to the issue of homosexuality, the case of [[Matthew Shepard]] [[Hate crime|was likely not a hate crime according to one of the leading police investigators for the murder]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=277685&amp;amp;page=3&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[NewsMax]] reported the following regarding the cases of Dirkhising and Shephard:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|McGowan did a Nexus search and learned that the Shepard case generated a massive 3,007 stories. &amp;quot;And when the case finally went to trial ... it was all over the broadcast news, received front-page coverage in all major newspapers, and was featured on the cover of Time magazine. (In all, the New York Times ran 195 stories about the case.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;In the month after the Dirkhising murder, however, Nexus recorded only 46 stories...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He sums up by quoting the surprisingly candid [[Andrew Sullivan]] - an openly gay columnist for the liberal [[New Republic]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Wrote Sullivan: &amp;quot;The Shepard case was hyped for political reasons: to build support for inclusion of homosexuals in a federal [[hate crimes]] law. The Dirkhising case was ignored for political reasons: squeamishness about reporting a story that could feed anti-gay prejudice and the lack of any pending legislation to hang a story on ... Some deaths - if they affect a politically protected class - are worth more than others. Other deaths, those that do not fit a politically correct profile, are left to oblivion.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;newsmax&amp;quot;&amp;gt;http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/2/8/165348.shtml&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Fox News Channel and the Issue of Homosexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
As noted earlier, [[Accuracy in Media]] stated the following regarding the Fox News Channel:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Media organizations which underwrote the convention included NBC News, Times Inc., Turner Broadcasting, Knight-Ridder, the Washington Post and Fox News Network. That’s right - Fox News. This is supposed to be a conservative network.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;aim3367&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The American Family Association reported the following in regards to [[Bill O'Reilly]] who host the O&amp;quot;Reilly Report which is a popular program on the Fox News Channel:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|On February 11, 2004, Bill O'Reilly, host of The O'Reilly Factor on the Fox News Channel, featured Kevin Jennings, the executive director of GLSEN (the Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network.) Jennings, former teacher turned homosexual activist, along with a lesbian counterpart, discussed GLSEN's new pro-homosexual curriculum on marriage being marketed to children and youth in public schools all across America under the guise of &amp;quot;tolerance.&amp;quot;...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O'Reilly, watched heavily by conservatives and Christians alike, shocked much of his constituency on September 3, 2002 when he publicly announced his support of homosexual special rights in the nation's largest “gay” publication, The Advocate. His controversial interview is one he probably wishes would just go away. His sympathetic, emotionally based views on “gay” adoption and his mixed-message stance on “gay” marriage have caused great dissent among his loyalists - and no doubt cost him viewers.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/GetArticle.asp?id=115&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[WorldNetDaily]] stated the following regarding O'Reilly and his exchange with the [[Ex-Homosexuals|ex-homosexual]] and evangelical minister Stephen Bennett:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Fox News is threatening to sue a prominent evangelical minister in the ex-homosexual movement who engaged in a volatile exchange over biblical morality on the top-rated television program &amp;quot;The O'Reilly Factor&amp;quot; in September. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Stephen Bennett, who says he left his homosexual lifestyle nearly 11 years ago, has distributed a 60-minute audio tape program called the &amp;quot;The O'Reilly Shocker,&amp;quot; in which he responds to host Bill O'Reilly's characterization of people who take the Bible literally as &amp;quot;religious fanatics.&amp;quot;... &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bennett said he has received hundreds of e-mails from viewers of the segment who said they were outraged at O'Reilly's &amp;quot;anger and verbal abuse.&amp;quot; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30300&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In response to the threatened lawsuit of the Fox News Channel the Agape Press reported the following:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|But Mike DePrimo, senior litigation counsel for the American Family Association Center for Law &amp;amp; Policy, which represents Bennett, says Bennett has a right to distribute a recording of the program -- and that his use of the tape is legal under copyright law's allowance of fair use and comment.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The law provides that even copyrighted material may be used, provided it's used not for commercial gain but for comment,&amp;quot; DePrimo says. &amp;quot;Stephen Bennett used the material from the O'Reilly show simply to rebut the arguments O'Reilly put forward.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The attorney implies there may be another reason the popular O'Reilly wants distribution of the tape stopped -- and it has to do with image. &amp;quot;O'Reilly promotes himself as a [[conservative]],&amp;quot; DePrimo explains. &amp;quot;In fact, Bennett's tape shows that O'Reilly is simply another media elite who's advancing the [[Homosexual Agenda|homosexual agenda]] -- and he doesn't want to be exposed for what he is.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/1/afa/32003a.asp&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Washington Times Reports American Backlash Against Media Coverage of Homosexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
The [[Media Research Center]] reported the following regarding a 2003 news story by the [[Washington Times]]:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Washington Times - &amp;quot;Homosexuality seen as accepted by media,&amp;quot; by Julia Duin&lt;br /&gt;
July 29, 2003&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
...Last night, &amp;quot;Boy Meets Boy,&amp;quot; a dating game for homosexual men where some straight men are thrown into the mix, aired on [[NBC]]'s Bravo cable channel. This came on the heels of &amp;quot;Queer Eye for the Straight Guy,&amp;quot; another new Bravo show that last week got bumped up to prime time Thursday, the same night that NBC airs its homosexual-themed sitcom &amp;quot;Will &amp;amp; Grace.&amp;quot;... But there has been a backlash against homosexuality, according to a poll released yesterday by [[USA Today]]....opposition to same-sex &amp;quot;marriages&amp;quot; had risen to 57 percent, the most opposition since the question was first posed in 2000. &amp;quot;People feel there is a wave coming, so there's a resistance,&amp;quot; said Tim Graham, an analyst with the Media Research Center. &amp;quot;People ask if anyone is going to fight. This [[White House]] won't. The [[George Bush|Bush]] administration knows what the media hot buttons are.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.mediaresearch.org/inthenews/2003/news0703.asp&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
==Homosexuality in the Media and Viewers Opinions==&lt;br /&gt;
In June of 2007, [[Human Events]] reported the following:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|A new special report by the Culture and Media Institute (CMI) indicates that watching too much television could be hazardous to your moral health.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The report, The Media Assault on American Values, reveals that media messages appear to be undermining the pillars of America’s cultural edifice: strength of character, sexual morality and respect for God. The report is based on findings of a major scientific survey commissioned by CMI, a division of the Media Research Center.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The National Cultural Values Survey reveals a striking correlation between greater exposure to television and permissive moral views. Heavy television viewers (four hours or more per evening) are less committed to character virtues like honesty and charity, and more permissive about [[sex]], [[abortion]] and [[homosexuality]]. Light television viewers (one hour or less per evening) are more likely to attend religious services and live their lives by [[God]]’s principles....&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ten Americans believe Hollywood is harming the nation’s moral condition for every one who thinks Hollywood is helping.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21069&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Prevalence of Homosexuality in American Television Media==&lt;br /&gt;
In October of 2007 the pro-homosexuality [[Journal of Homosexuality]] published a journal article about the prevalence of homosexual and bisexual content in television.  Below is an excerpt from the journal article abstract:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Two annual content analyses of programming from the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 television seasons...were conducted to assess the presence of behaviors and verbal messages related to the sexuality of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Sexual content associated with nonheterosexuals was found in about 15% of programs overall; however, rates of occurrence within episodes were low. Of 14 genres, only movies and variety/comedy shows had substantial percentages of programs that contained nonheterosexual content. Programs on commercial broadcast networks were less likely to have nonheterosexual content than those on cable networks, especially those on premium cable movie networks.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/haworth/jh/2007/00000052/F0020003/art00008;jsessionid=1id6c8peakf5e.alice?format=print&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}} &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In August of 2007, the Baptist Press reported the following regarding homosexuality in the media:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|As previously reported in Baptist Press, the [[Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation]] (GLAAD) released Aug. 6 its first-ever &amp;quot;Network Responsibility Index&amp;quot; which examined the inclusion of &amp;quot;lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender&amp;quot; themes or characters on TV.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The index found that 15 percent of all of ABC's primetime programming hours during a 12-month span contained either homosexual characters or the discussion of homosexuality. The CW was second at 12 percent, followed by CBS (9 percent), NBC (7 percent) and Fox (6 percent). For their content ABC was rated &amp;quot;good,&amp;quot; the CW, CBS and NBC &amp;quot;fair&amp;quot; and Fox &amp;quot;poor.&amp;quot;...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Television's positive portrayal has certainly contributed to the rise in the acceptance of homosexuality as natural, normal and healthy.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=26269&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, there may have been a backlash or public pressure against the promotion of homosexuality vis a vis network television and the college newspaper ''The Loquitur'' reported the following in October of 2007:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Network television has begun to cancel homosexual characters from their sitcoms while cable television has cast more this year. The organization, Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, GLAAD, is in upset over the decrease of homosexual characters on network television.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://media.www.theloquitur.com/media/storage/paper226/news/2007/10/11/AE/Sitcoms.Cancel.Homosexuality-3033576.shtml&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Homosexuality in the Media and American History==&lt;br /&gt;
In 2002, [[NewsMax]] reported the following regarding homosexuality and the media in regards to how the United States press used to cover the homosexuality issue:&lt;br /&gt;
{{cquote|Four decades ago, media coverage of homosexuality was universally hostile. McGowan recalls Time magazine's description of homosexuality as a &amp;quot;pathetic little second-rate substitute for reality, a pitiable flight from life&amp;quot; deserving &amp;quot;no encouragement, no glamorization, no rationalization, no fake status as minority martyrdom, no sophistry about simple differences in taste, and above all no pretence that it is anything but a pernicious sickness.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Straight News quoted [[Mike Wallace]] as calling the [http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality#Homosexuality_and_Promiscuity  average homosexual &amp;quot;promiscuous&amp;quot;] and &amp;quot;not interested in or capable of a lasting relationship like that of a heterosexual.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;newsmax&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The pro-homosexuality [[Journal of Homosexuality]] also stated the following regarding the homosexuality and television media: &amp;quot;Before 1970, almost no gay characters could be found on television, and their relative absence from the screen continued until the 1990s...&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2000838&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See Also==&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Homosexuality Research]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Homosexuality]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
== References ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Homosexuality]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Media]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liberal Bias]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Homosexual Agenda]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Liberal Deceit]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Sex_education&amp;diff=453231</id>
		<title>Sex education</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Sex_education&amp;diff=453231"/>
		<updated>2008-05-14T22:59:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;GeneralGrievous: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;'''Sex Education''' is classroom instruction on [[human reproduction]] and [[sexuality]]. It is one of the hottest cultural issues in American politics, with [[liberal]]s and some conservatives favoring &amp;quot;science-based&amp;quot; (comprehensive) teaching on aspects of abstinence and birth control methods, as well as reproductive organs. A lot of conservatives, especially social conservatives, favor abstinence-only sex education, with no mention of contraception or birth control except in relation to their failure rates. Other conservatives are against sex education (in schools) altogether, taking the &amp;quot;[[moral]]&amp;quot; side and wanting as little mention of sex in classrooms as possible, leaving parents to instruct their children as to sexual morality and information relating to sex and reproductive organs.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Studies have not shown that abstinence-only education produces successful outcomes.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041301003.html Study Casts Doubt on Abstinence-Only Programs]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, &amp;quot;Abstinence-only programs have not demonstrated successful outcomes with regard to delayed initiation of sexual activity or use of safer sex practices.... Programs that encourage abstinence as the best option for adolescents, but offer a discussion of HIV prevention and contraception as the best approach for adolescents who are sexually active, have been shown to delay the initiation of sexual activity and increase the proportion of sexually active adolescents who reported using birth control.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/108/2/498&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, argues that abstinence-only sex education leads to the opposite of the intended results by spreading ignorance regarding sexually-transmitted diseases and the proper use of contraceptives to prevent both infections and pregnancy.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9504871/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In England the National Curriculum www.dfes.gov.uk requires all schools to offer comprehensive sex education as part of Personal, Social and Health Education, from middle school on, but parents may choose to not have their children attend sex education classes.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Sociology]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Sexuality]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>GeneralGrievous</name></author>
	</entry>
</feed>