Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T22:12:00Z

FredFerguson: /* Unreferenced Claims */

SJohnson, your assessment, while good in the utilization of the chi-squared test is unfortunately incorrect. The Monte Carlo resampling gives a more accurate p-value than the chi-squared. You may research the literature (i.e. publications in statistical mathematics, many pubs actualy compare Monte Carlo vs Chi Squared) to discover that this method is commonly used in advance statistical work and how it is more accurate than the chi-squared test.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 17:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:It doesn’t make sense to compare the chi-square test, which is a specific statistical hypothesis test, to Monte Carlo methods, which can be used for anything from fluid motion modeling to p-value computations. You can use Monte Carlo methods to compute the p-values of the chi-square test!

:Monte Carlo methods involve the generation of random realizations. Your broad claim the Monte Carlo methods are “more accurate” than the chi-square test is obviously incorrect because the accuracy of Monte Carlo methods always depends on the number of random realizations generated. When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous.

:Which publications compare Monte Carlo to chi-square and show that the former is more accurate? Could you provide specific examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 18:50, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:In furtherance of SJohnson's remarks with respect to rarely occurring events, the use of the basic Monte Carlo method is plainly incorrect for modeling a rarely occurring event, as the Lenski paper did. This has long been pointed out in [[Flaws in Richard Lenski Study]]. I know [[evolutionists]] will never admit a flaw in anything promoting their pet theory, but this (and other) flaws in that paper is undeniable.

:Watch how evolutionists defended obvious errors in the Lenski paper, and then realize why the [[Piltdown Man]] fraud was taught for 40 years without evolutionists admitting it was a hoax.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:55, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::Andy, how exactly is the Monte Carlo method incorrect to use in this case? I have seen it used in publications with much smaller datasets.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:29, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::Able806, I'm interested in looking at the publications you mentioned that use Monte Carlo methods to analyze small data sets. Could you provide some examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:41, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::SJohnson, here are two papers, [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-45RFJ1J-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ad95954654bb97b17e474ce6b469f6e 1] and [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=787963 2]. Most are in chemistry and genetics where you find the observed to be much smaller and have to use the MCM. You can search on the subject as well and find that how Lenski performed the test is the standard for microbiological genetic analysis.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::Those papers have nothing to do with hypothesis testing. One is an archeology paper. To be blunt, it seems like you’re just doing internet searches on “Monte Carlo” to find these links. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::SJohnson, actually they do, did you read the papers? If so you would see how they used the MCM for their data analysis of small data sets, which indeed was hypothesis testing and answers you inquiry about publications that use MCM for small data set analysis. If you wish I can try to track down some actual mathematical publications, however, I am not as familiar with mathematical journals as I am with science/medical journals (not knowing which mathematical journals are acceptable). I am assuming that you have a background in math and possibly access to mathematical journals, therefore if you know the reputable ones I can do the leg work.
::::::I believe the thing that needs to be looked at is there truly a problem with the choice of test and if so what is an alternative. Bayesian might be an option but seems to be difficult to employ for this situation.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 12:36, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Able806, you still seem to miss the point about how inappropriate the Monte Carlo method (as used in the Lenski paper) is for evaluating rarely occurring events. You need to open your mind to be productive. If you simply cling to a view that Lenski (who I don't think has any meaningful education in statistics) must somehow be right, then you're not going to make any progress in understanding the flaws.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:07, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::Andy, you still have not answered what you find inappropriate about his use of the Monte Carlo method? I am a reasonable person and with evidence I do have an open mind. I provided examples last week, with a working model, showing that Monte Carlo is better than the chi-square in this case. I have also shown where the Chi-Square was inappropriate due to the occurrence size as well. So if you have any evidence that Monte Carlo should not be used in the way that Lenski used please let it be shown.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Sjohnson, I believe you just proved my point. In the literature of mean and covariance structure analysis, non-central chi-square distribution is commonly used to describe the behavior of the likelihood ratio statistic under alternative hypothesis; it is widely believed that the non-central chi-square distribution is justified by statistical theory. Actually, when the null hypothesis is not trivially violated, the non-central chi-square distribution cannot describe the LR statistic well even when data are normally distributed and the sample size is large. Monte Carlo results compare the strength of the normal distribution against that of the non-central chi-square distribution. In an association analysis comparing cases and controls with respect to allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus, a potential problem is that the conventional chi-squared test may not be valid for a large, sparse contingency table. Reliance on statistics with known asymptotic distribution is unnecessary, as Monte Carlo simulations can be performed to estimate the significance level of the test statistic.

Here is a [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html link] to a great page the provides an interactive example as to why the Chi Squared test would provide poor results compared to the Monte Carlo in relation to the Lenski data workup.

Something you may have overlooked was that the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly. It is often accepted that is any of the analyzed data falls under 10 for a particular cell of the data set then the Yates correction needs to be applied; unfortunately the Yates correction can over correct thus skewing the p-value. Lenksi seemed to understand this by supporting his Monte Carlo p-value results with the Fisher z-transformation p-value.

I hope this helps.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:27, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:I’m still waiting to hear which literature says that “Monte Carlo resampling” is “more accurate than the chi-squared test”. The page mentioned above [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html] is a discussion of why statisticians “fail to reject the null” rather than “accepting the null” when the p-value is above 0.05 or so. The page says nothing about superiority of Monte Carlo methods. Why were alternate hypothesis distributions mentioned? Only the null hypothesis distribution is used to calculate a p-value. Yates’s correction is for 2x2 contingency tables [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates%27_correction_for_continuity]. It doesn’t apply in this case. Finally, what the heck do “covariance structure analysis” and “allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus” have to do with this problem? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::SJohnson, I am looking for this paper for you, I cited it for one of my past publications dealing with allele frequencies (I believe it came from the Duke Biostatistics group). To answer your question about allele frequencies, that is the issue at hand, more about the genetics than the math, but it is the item being studied. So you stated that Yates can not be used and statistics says the number of occurrences is too small to evaluate using the Chi-Squared test so what would you recommend instead of the Monte-Carlo Method?

:Regarding the "Fisher z-transformation p-value" from the paper, garbage in garbage out. If the p-values were bad to begin with, then why would a combination of them be meaningful? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:49, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::You are assuming that p-values are wrong based on a test that is inappropriate in this case due to data limitations. Did you perform a z-transformation on the chi-squared for the three data groups?--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::You asked about the “Fisher z-transformation p-value”. The z-transformation test and Fisher’s method are actually two different things (see Whitlock's 2005 paper - Ref. 49 in Blount et al.). But no, I haven’t tried either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::There's a large literature on various kinds of Monte Carlo test, a very short summary of which is that they're inevitably more accurate than parametric tests (e.g. F, t, chi-squared, etc) because they don't make assumptions about the distribution of the data under the null hypothesis. See for example ''Introduction to the Bootstrap'' by B. Efron and R. Tibshirani and ''The Jack-knife, the Bootstrap and Other Resampling Plans'', also by Efron. They're certainly applicable to small datasets and their accuracy is really only limited by the number of samples you care to take. E.g. 1000 M-C samples would give you a pretty accurate idea about significance at the alpha<1% level (That book should answer SJohnson's questions of 18:50 on 4/3/09 and 16:38 on 5/3/09 about accuracy and Aschalfly's comment of 17:07 on 5/3/09 about appropriateness of Monte Carlo tests.) [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:53, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Your claim that Monte Carlo methods are “inevitably more accurate” than other tests is obviously wrong because the accuracy of MC methods always depends on the number of realizations used. You should have written <math>\alpha=1\%</math>, not <math>\alpha<1\%</math>. If 1,000 random realizations are generated, the number of realizations above the true <math>\alpha=1\%</math> level is binomial with mean 10 and variance about 10. Thus, the standard deviation of the MC estimate is >0.003. In this example, a Monte Carlo p-value could be off by 30% and still be within a standard deviation. Is that really “pretty accurate”?

::::Using one million MC realizations (as done in the paper) at the <math>\alpha=0.001</math> level means the standard deviation is about 10%. The paper reported a p-value of less than 0.001 (experiment two). It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the experiment two p-value for the flawed test is off because only one million realizations were used. My original statement, “When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous” is correct. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::You're talking about miniscule differences in the accuracy of a test. 0.013 isn't very different from 0.007. In either case, it's very unlikely the experimenter would have obtained that result if the null hypothesis were true. If you're bothered about differences in P-values to the third decimals (which would make you unusual!), just run more MC realisations, that's all. Not really a problem. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:53, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

There’s still confusion about the difference between test statistics and Monte Carlo methods. Before you find a Monte Carlo estimate of a p-value, you need to select a test statistic to reduce the data set to a scalar. I am interested in hearing which test statistic you believe should be used in place of the chi-square test and why. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Quick question for SJohnson: How many degrees of freedom did you choose when calculating the p-value? I'd like to know upon what condition you base that number. Thanks.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:05, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:The degree of freedom for a contingency table is rows minus one times columns minus one. That is, <math> (r-1)(c-1) </math>. Here’s a pretty good tutorial I came across: [http://faculty.uncfsu.edu/dwallace/lesson%2020.pdf]. For the experiments from [http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf], the DOFs are 11, 11, and 13. For experiment one, the chi-square test statistic is
::<math>
X^2
=\sum\limits_i\sum\limits_j
\frac{\left(n_{i,j}-E\left[n_{i,j}\right]\right)^2}
{E\left[n_{i,j}\right]}
</math>
::<math>
=\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(6-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
+\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\ldots+
</math>
::<math>
+\frac{\left(2-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(4-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
</math>
::<math>
\approx
14.82
</math>
:where <math>n_{i,j}</math> is the observed value and <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> is the expected null hypothesis value. So if you have MS Excel, another way to arrive at the p-value of 0.19 is to type “=CHIDIST(14.82,11)” into a cell. Cheers! [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::OK, thanks for the info. From what I'd calculated and looked up in tables, the numbers seemed close to a df=11 for a chi-square of ~14. (Aside: With terms having 17/3 in the denominator in the figures above, were you using the test of independence? I was using Pearson's test for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson%27s_chi-square_test#Test_for_fit_of_a_distribution fit of a distribution] which returns a chi-squared value of 14 and roughly matched the p-values you reported, assuming the df was 11).

::Also, the first sentence of the article reads: "Blount, Borland, and Lenski[1] claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a laboratory experiment. That claim is false." A small correction: There were several claims in the paper. The 'key evolutionary innovation' was acquiring the ability to utilize citrate as a food source. That claim was demonstrated multiple times. The claim, which pertains to this statistics discussion was that the Cit+ phenotype arose in a multi-step process, first requiring a rare, pre-adaptive mutation before additional mutation(s) lead to the subsequent development of citrate utilization.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:46, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::My biology-degreed wife assures me that mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution occurred. What the paper claimed is that evolution (a “key innovation”) occurred in the lab. The key innovation supposedly increased the mutation rate. In the experiments, the observed mutation rate increased after generation 31,000, but not enough to make a statistically significant claim that the rate is not constant. The analysis in the paper was similar to flipping a coin ten times, counting six heads and claiming that the coin must be biased against tails. In reality, there’s nothing surprising about a fair coin producing slightly more of one outcome than the other. Just like there's nothing surprising about there being slightly more mutations in later generations than early generations given the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate). [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::::SJohnson, not to say anything about your wife, but has she had a 400 level molecular genetics course (most general biology degrees do not cover the detail unless they are specialized)? If so, she would have mentioned that if the mutation passes to the offspring and is selectively beneficial to the population then it is a step of evolution as along as the conditions continue through the sharing of the mutation with the population and the environment is such that reduces the growth rate of the non-transformed population. While not all mutations are signs that evolution occurred the mutations that pass to offspring and provide a benefit compared to other offspring are very strong indicators. In the case of this paper the population that evolved the cit+ was able to metabolize a chemical in their environment which allowed for an adaptation advantage compared to the non-transformed colonies.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Let’s go back to the beginning. There appears to be confusion about the difference between test statistics and methods for computing p-values. As is noted at the beginning of the page [http://www.conservapedia.com/Significance_of_E._Coli_Evolution_Experiments], the fundamental problem with the paper is that it used a flawed test statistic, not that it used Monte Carlo methods to find the p-value for that flawed statistic.

Every hypothesis test uses a test statistic to reduce the data to a single number. The p-value for the test statistic can be calculated analytically (as I’ve done for the chi-square test statistic) or by Monte Carlo methods. In the paper, Monte Carlo methods were used to compute the p-value of the “mutation generation” test statistic. The key problem with the analysis from the paper is that it doesn’t work to use a weighted average to test for variations in mutation rate. This is like trying to use the sample variance to test for an increase in the mean in Gaussian-distributed data. A statistic should be selected based on the null and alternate hypothesis distributions of the data. The chi-square test (unlike the weighted average from the paper) is a reasonable choice for data that mutates at a constant rate under the null hypothesis, but mutates at varying rates under the alternate hypothesis.

Able806, you made a good point about the contingency table cell frequencies being relatively low, but were wrong when you said ”the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly”. In the low cell frequency case the chi-square test is still effective, but the null hypothesis distribution of the chi-square statistic starts to look less like the chi-square distribution. Thus, p-values calculated using the chi-square distribution may be a bit off. However, Monte Carlo p-values are always imperfect as well because it's impossible to generate an infinite number of random realizations. There are imperfections in p-values generated by analytic and Monte Carlo methods. However, low cell frequencies does not explain the >20x and >2.5x differences between chi-square p-values and p-values from the paper for experiments one and three. The reason for those huge differences was the use of the flawed test statistic (“mutation generation”) in the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:SJohnson, the chi-squared test is a valuable statistical tool, but the limitations of the test must be acknowledged. The chi-squared test can only produce valid results if the assumptions that underly the test are not violated. As an analogy, Newtonian models of motion fail to produce accurate results as velocities approach the speed of light; under those circumstances one must switch to a theory that accounts for relativistic effects.

:It seems that you have simply dismissed the [http://www.okstate.edu/ag/agedcm4h/academic/aged5980a/5980/newpage28.htm widely-acknowledged] [http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/chisq.htm fact] that the [http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Psych205/chisquareindep.html chi-squared test] is [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236 inappropriate] for use in [http://www.graphpad.com/www/Book/Choose.htm situations] where n in any cell is [http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/chisquar.htm less] less than a [http://books.google.com/books?id=yU15rUiLRI8C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=chi-square+test+assumptions&source=bl&ots=FRY0LwQ3z_&sig=FyIvzJx3hjQ8nWlu2cpmZj3pwXY&hl=en&ei=fm-1SayaNI_MMKX5tO4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#PPA185,M1 threshold] [http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/statguidefiles/gf-dist_ass_viol.html number]. Different authors set different thresholds, but all are well above the numbers seen in your chi-squared analysis - even the most liberal guidelines advise against the chi-squared test when any expected cell frequency is less than one or more than 20% of the table cells are less than 5; others require that expected values in all cells must be more than 5. With smaller amounts of data, the test is insensitive and errs on the side of rejecting the hypothesis. If you attempt your chi-squared statistical analysis with a program that is more sophisticated than MS Excel (as I did), you get an error message indicating that the results are invalid due to low expected cell counts.

:That issue aside, there are other reasons that the chi-squared test is inappropriate here. As the links above point out, the categories tested must be truly independent; one example is that you can't use the chi-squared test to compare age and ability to kick a field goal by testing the same experimental group twice, one year apart; you have to test one group of age A and a different group of age B. In the case of the Blount paper, the categories are not independent. Even if there were adequate numbers to address the low-expected-frequency problem, this would make the chi-squared an invalid test in this case.

:There are other significant problems with the use of the chi-squared test in this circumstance, but they can wait until you address these first major problems.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 12:18, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::Wackerly et al. says in general it’s assumed that the cell frequencies are above five so that the chi-square statistic (under the null) is approximately chi-square distributed (see p. 703). That book does not say chi-square test results are invalid if frequencies are five or less. Your example of a chi-square test warning message (it said "warning" not "error" as you stated) in Minitab [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236] said “approximation probably invalid” referring to the chi-square distribution approximation to the chi-square test statistic’s distribution. Your example did not say “chi-square test invalid”. I agree that when cell frequencies are low, the chi-square test statistic’s distribution starts to deviate from the chi-square distribution. I maintain that this deviation is not enough to explain the >2.5x and >20x differences in the chi-square test p-values and the p-values from the paper.

::As the numerous links in your post proved, the chi-square test is widely-used by statisticians. Can you give examples of statisticians using mean mutation generation as a test statistic? Also, did your software agree with the chi-square test p-values I presented? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Thank you for giving page references for Wackerly; however it seems we have different editions, since page 703 in my copy (5th ed, 1996) does not deal with chi-squared issues at all. My copy does state the following, on page 622: "Although the mathematical proof is beyond the scope of this text, it can be shown that, when n is large [chi-squared] will possess approximately a chi-square probability distribution in repeated sampling." Then, on page 624: "Experience has shown that cell counts [n sub i] should not be too small in order that the chi-square distribution provide an accurate approximation to the distribution of [chi squared]. As a rule of thumb we require that all expected cell counts equal or exceed 5, although Cochran (1952) has noted that this value can be as low as 1 for some situations." Wackerly then goes on, in the problems sections, to describe the use of the chi-squared test as a "violation of good statistical practice" when "some expected counts [are] <5."

:::It seems that you are already aware that the [chi-square] statistic under the null is no longer chi-square distributed for small n; this is precisely why the test should not be used under those conditions. I can claim to be able to accelerate a 1-kg mass to 10 times the speed of light by applying 1 N of force for 95 years by using F=ma and t= (vf-vi)/a. Plugging the numbers into those equations will produce the same result every time, but the answer is illegitimate because those equations are only valid under certain assumptions, which are violated as velocities approach the speed of light. Similarly, having a statistical program calculate a chi-squared value given the Blount data will produce a number result, but since the assumptions of the test are violated the result is not legitimate. Yes, if I put the Blount data in SAS 9.2, I get the same numerical answer as you do, but I also get the following message: "WARNING: >89% of the cells have expected counts less than 5. Chi-square may not be a valid test." You may argue that that's a warning, not an error; that's a semantic distinction. The reason that the program says that it MAY not be valid is that the chi-squared test skews in the direction of being too conservative at low n values; the test has an acceptable rate of false positives but an unacceptably high rate of false negatives. Comparing the results of the Monte Carlo and chi-squared results in this case is like comparing the results of Newtonian and relativistic equations of motion: they can produce very different results from the same input data.

:::Your last paragraph has a major non sequitur in it: yes, many statisticians use the chi-square test. As long as the assumptions of the test are not violated, it is a valuable tool. That has nothing to do with the validity of using mean mutation generation as a test statistic. 'Mean number of werewolf attacks in Mumbai in the week centered on the new moon, by month, from 1654 to 1798' is a valid test statistic. I am quite sure that it has never been used in a peer-reviewed paper before. That does not mean that I can't perform valid statistical tests on that statistic. If, however, the incorrect test is applied, the results of the analysis will be flawed. Papers apply a (relatively small) standard repertoire of valid tests to a (potentially infinite) number of test statistics. The particular test statistic used in a paper may never have been used before and may never be used again; that does not address the validity of the analysis. In Blount's case, the test is the Monte Carlo analysis, which is also "widely-used by statisticians".

:::We still haven't touched on the issue of the categories not being independent, which by itself is sufficient to invalidate the chi-squared technique. I'm new to this site, so I'm unsure as to the etiquette of making changes to the articles of another person - but the article here should at the very least mention that the chi-square test is being used here in a manner that violates its underlying assumptions in at least two fundamental ways, and the results are therefore suspect.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:34, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: It looks to me as though SJohnson has misinterpreted the application of the chi-squared test in quite a fundamental way. His/her analysis of Blount's data are therefore close to meaningless, regardless of whether the test used by Blount is appropriate or not. In my opinion, the entire page should therefore be deleted. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 08:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

::::: "Fred", perhaps you mistakenly think this is Wikipedia, where [[censorship]] and deletion of pages for ideological reasons are common. Not here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:23, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Umm... I'm suggesting deletion for mathematical reasons, not ideological reasons. Using an argument filled with mathematical errors to try to support your case only detracts from your credibility. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:38, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Actually, I think correction is better than deletion. So that's what I've done. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:01, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::: I find no credibility in your denial of having ideological reasons.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:04, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

== Misinterpretation of test ==

SJohnson, Your analysis misinterprets the test. You say the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen. They saw a mutation (4 mutations, in fact, in the data set you show) so the null hypothesis (as you state is) is disproved. That's perfectly straightforward.

I don't know what the "mean mutation generation" test is but you're doing when you apply a chi-squared test to this dataset is to test if the mutations are evenly distributed throughout the generations. Your test says they are, so there's no strong evidence to suppose that mutations are likely to occur in one generation rather than another in the series of tests. Blount's test says thay aren't, so it's more likely that the mutation will occur later in the series of tests. I can't tell which test is right without knowing more about the test that Blount used.

But that point (the foregoing paragraph) has no bearing at all on the null hypothesis, as you describe it. The mutation appeared, so that means the hypothesis that the mutation can't happen is disproved. Very simple. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 21:10, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

:I never said that “the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen”. The chi-square test statistic I'm using wouldn’t be defined if the null hypothesis mutation rate was zero because the <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> term in the denominator of the statistic (see above equation) would be zero.

:The test statistic from the paper is the average of the generation numbers of observed mutations. For experiment one this number is
::<math>
\frac{1}{4}\left(30500+31500+2\times32500\right)= 31750.
</math>
:The same number is shown in Table 2 of the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: SJohnson, the way you're calculating the chi-squared statistic implies that you're testing the null hypothesis of a constant mutation rate over time against an alternative hypothesis of a mutation rate which varies over time. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:02, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

As it currently stands, the article makes the following statement: "The expected outcomes under the null hypothesis (no evolutionary innovation occurs) are also shown." This misstates the null hypothesis of the paper, which is elaborated in the Introduction section of the paper, and repeated in the section '''Statistical Analysis of the Replay Experiments''':
<blockquote>
For each experiment, we compared the observed mean generation of those clones that yielded Cit+ variants to the mean expected under the null hypothesis that clones from all generations have equal likelihood. The null thus corresponds to the rare-mutation hypothesis laid out in the Introduction."
Block quote
</blockquote><ref>www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/105/23/7899.pdf</ref>

The article also continues to describe 'mean mutation generation' as a ''test'' rather than a ''statistic'' to which the ''Monte Carlo test'' was applied.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:24, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

==Unreferenced Claims==

I deleted the claim that mean mutation generation is an appropriate test statistic because no reference was produced that back that claim. No reference was provided to back the claim that the chi-square test p-values are always conservative, either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 12:57, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

: The reference is Everitt. I'll check I put it in the right place. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 13:30, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

There was a typo in my edit summaries on the talk page and the main page. I meant to say "Removed unsupported claims" rather than "Removed supported claims". [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 13:13, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

I do not believe that anyone has claimed that 'chi-square test p-values are ''always'' conservative'. The claim that has been made is that ''under certain circumstances'', namely low n and low individual cell values, the chi-square test is an invalid test; that under those circumstances the power of the test is low and it becomes impossible to reject the null hypothesis even when it is false. You may have missed the pertinent sections in my links above, so I will directly quote the relevant sections. All the quoted sections refer to chi-square testing in particular. Any bolding below is mine.
<blockquote>
"Assumptions: 

Even though a nonparametric statistic does not require a normally distributed population, there still are some restrictions regarding its use. 

1. Representative sample (Random) 
2. The data must be in frequency form (nominal data) or greater. 
3. The individual observations must be independent of each other. 
4. '''Sample size must be adequate. In a 2 x 2 table, Chi Square should not be used if n is less than 20. In a larger table, no expected value should be less than 1, and not more than 20% of the variables can have expected values of less than 5'''. 
5. Distribution basis must be decided on before the data is collected. 
6. The sum of the observed frequencies must equal the sum of the expected frequencies."
</blockquote>
<ref>http://www.okstate.edu/ag/agedcm4h/academic/aged5980a/5980/newpage28.htm
</ref>

<blockquote>
"Assumptions:
* Random sample data are assumed. As with all significance tests, if you have population data, then any table differences are real and therefore significant. If you have non-random sample data, significance cannot be established, though significance tests are nonetheless sometimes utilized as crude "rules of thumb" anyway.
* A sufficiently large sample size is assumed, as in all significance tests. '''Applying chi-square to small samples exposes the researcher to an unacceptable rate of Type II errors. There is no accepted cutoff. Some set the minimum sample size at 50, while others would allow as few as 20'''. Note chi-square must be calculated on actual count data, not substituting percentages, which would have the effect of pretending the sample size is 100.
* '''Adequate cell sizes are also assumed. Some require 5 or more, some require more than 5, and others require 10 or more. A common rule is 5 or more in all cells of a 2-by-2 table, and 5 or more in 80% of cells in larger tables, but no cells with zero count'''. When this assumption is not met, Yates' correction is applied.
* Independence. Observations must be independent. The same observation can only appear in one cell. '''This means chi-square cannot be used to test correlated data (ex., before-after, matched pairs, panel data)'''.
* Similar distribution. Observations must have the same underlying distribution.
* Known distribution. The hypothesized distribution is specified in advance, so that the number of observations that are expected to appear each cell in the table can be calculated without reference to the observed values. Normally this expected value is the crossproduct of the row and column marginals divided by the sample size.
* Non-directional hypotheses are assumed. Chi-square tests the hypothesis that two variables are related only by chance. If a significant relationship is found, this is not equivalent to establishing the researcher's hypothesis that A causes B, or that B causes A.
* Finite values. Observations must be grouped in categories.
* Normal distribution of deviations (observed minus expected values) is assumed. Note chi-square is a nonparametric test in the sense that is does not assume the parameter of normal distribution for the data -- only for the deviations.
* Data level. No assumption is made about level of data. Nominal, ordinal, or interval data may be used with chi-square tests."
</blockquote>
<ref>http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/chisq.htm</ref>

<blockquote>
"Assumptions: 
-None of the expected values may be less than 1 
-No more than 20% of the expected values may be less than 5"</blockquote> <ref>http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Psych205/chisquareindep.html</ref>

<blockquote>
"When performing a chi-square test, your data must satisfy important assumptions. Although these assumptions may be stated differently in different textbooks, they generally assert that: 
1)The sample must be randomly drawn from the population 
'''2)The sample size, n, must be large enough so that the expected cell count in each cell is greater than or equal to 5.''' 
Both assumptions must be met in the process of collecting your data, and violations of the second assumption will appear in the Minitab output when you run the analysis. 
... 
'''You may wonder why the second assumption is necessary for performing the chi-square test. The second assumption arises because the distribution of counts under the null hypothesis is multinomial, and the normal distribution can be used to approximate the multinomial distribution if the sample size is sufficiently large and the probability parameters aren't too small. It can be shown via the Central Limit Theorem that the multinomial distribution converges to the normal distribution as the sample size approaches infinity; however, there is no easy way to show mathematically how and when the convergence fails.'''"
</blockquote>
<ref>http://www.minitab.com/support/docs/Answers/Chi-Square%20Test%20Assumptions.pdf</ref>

<blockquote>
"'''The chi-square test is simpler to calculate but yields only an approximate P value. ... You should definitely avoid the chi-square test when the numbers in the contingency table are very small (any number less than about six)'''."
</blockquote> <ref>http://www.graphpad.com/www/Book/Choose.htm</ref>

<blockquote>
"The most important things to remember to get a valid χ2 test are that the expected values are not too small in any bin (certainly 5 or more), and that the degrees of freedom are properly evaluated. '''Unless you have a very large amount of data, the test is not very sensitive and errs on the side of safety. If you get a significant result, however, it is not likely to be wrong.'''"
</blockquote> <ref>http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/chisquar.htm</ref>

<blockquote>
"The critical assumptions of the chi-square test for k independent samples are similar to those for the chi-square test for two independent samples. ... 
'''4. No more than 20% of the cells may have expected frequencies of less than 5, and no cell should have an expected frequency of less than 1. 
The rule given in Assumption 4 is particularly important for a contingency table that is larger than 2X2'''"
</blockquote> <ref>http://books.google.com/books?id=yU15rUiLRI8C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=chi-square+test+assumptions&source=bl&ots=FRY0LwQ3z_&sig=FyIvzJx3hjQ8nWlu2cpmZj3pwXY&hl=en&ei=fm-1SayaNI_MMKX5tO4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#PPA185,M1
</ref>

<blockquote>
"Special problems with small expected cell frequencies for the chi-square test: 
The chi-square test involves using the chi-square distribution to approximate the underlying exact distribution. The approximation becomes better as the expected cell frequencies grow larger, and '''may be inappropriate for tables with very small expected cell frequencies.''' 
'''For tables with expected cell frequencies less than 5, the chi-square approximation may not be reliable. A standard (and conservative) rule of thumb (due to Cochran) is to avoid using the chi-square test for tables with expected cell frequencies less than 1, or when more than 20% of the table cells have expected cell frequencies less than 5.''' 
Another rule of thumb (due to Roscoe and Byars) is that the average expected cell frequency should be at least 1 when the expected cell frequencies are close to equal, and 2 when they are not. (If the chosen significance level is 0.01 instead of 0.05, then double these numbers.) 
Koehler and Larntz suggest that if the total number of observations is at least 10, the number categories is at least 3, and the square of the total number of observations is at least 10 times the number of categories, then the chi-square approximation should be reasonable. 
Care should be taken when cell categories are combined (collapsed together) to fix problems of small expected cell frequencies. Collapsing can destroy evidence of non-independence, so a failure to reject the null hypothesis for the collapsed table does not rule out the possibility of non-independence in the original table. 
'''As with most statistical tests, the power of the chi-square test increases with a larger number of observations. If there are too few observations, it may be impossible to reject the null hypothesis even if it is false.'''"
</blockquote> <ref>http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/statguidefiles/gf-dist_ass_viol.html</ref>--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:24, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

: Thanks for this really excellent contribution, ElyM. The only thing I'd like to add is in relation to your initial statement, "I do not believe that anyone has claimed that 'chi-square test p-values are always conservative'". The question of whether a test is conservative in a particular situation is probabilistic. One can determine whether a test is likely to generate a p-value which is too high in a particular situation (e.g. for a chi-squared test, when there are lots of small expected values) but one needs an exact test (such as an appropriate Monte Carlo randomisation test) to determine whether the p-value in any ''particular'' test is in fact excessively high.

: I hope careful reading of your very clear description will put SJohnson's mind at rest on this subject. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 18:11, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

== References ==
{{reflist}}

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T17:30:59Z

FredFerguson: /* Unreferenced Claims */ Reference is Everitt

SJohnson, your assessment, while good in the utilization of the chi-squared test is unfortunately incorrect. The Monte Carlo resampling gives a more accurate p-value than the chi-squared. You may research the literature (i.e. publications in statistical mathematics, many pubs actualy compare Monte Carlo vs Chi Squared) to discover that this method is commonly used in advance statistical work and how it is more accurate than the chi-squared test.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 17:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:It doesn’t make sense to compare the chi-square test, which is a specific statistical hypothesis test, to Monte Carlo methods, which can be used for anything from fluid motion modeling to p-value computations. You can use Monte Carlo methods to compute the p-values of the chi-square test!

:Monte Carlo methods involve the generation of random realizations. Your broad claim the Monte Carlo methods are “more accurate” than the chi-square test is obviously incorrect because the accuracy of Monte Carlo methods always depends on the number of random realizations generated. When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous.

:Which publications compare Monte Carlo to chi-square and show that the former is more accurate? Could you provide specific examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 18:50, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:In furtherance of SJohnson's remarks with respect to rarely occurring events, the use of the basic Monte Carlo method is plainly incorrect for modeling a rarely occurring event, as the Lenski paper did. This has long been pointed out in [[Flaws in Richard Lenski Study]]. I know [[evolutionists]] will never admit a flaw in anything promoting their pet theory, but this (and other) flaws in that paper is undeniable.

:Watch how evolutionists defended obvious errors in the Lenski paper, and then realize why the [[Piltdown Man]] fraud was taught for 40 years without evolutionists admitting it was a hoax.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:55, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::Andy, how exactly is the Monte Carlo method incorrect to use in this case? I have seen it used in publications with much smaller datasets.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:29, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::Able806, I'm interested in looking at the publications you mentioned that use Monte Carlo methods to analyze small data sets. Could you provide some examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:41, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::SJohnson, here are two papers, [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-45RFJ1J-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ad95954654bb97b17e474ce6b469f6e 1] and [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=787963 2]. Most are in chemistry and genetics where you find the observed to be much smaller and have to use the MCM. You can search on the subject as well and find that how Lenski performed the test is the standard for microbiological genetic analysis.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::Those papers have nothing to do with hypothesis testing. One is an archeology paper. To be blunt, it seems like you’re just doing internet searches on “Monte Carlo” to find these links. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::SJohnson, actually they do, did you read the papers? If so you would see how they used the MCM for their data analysis of small data sets, which indeed was hypothesis testing and answers you inquiry about publications that use MCM for small data set analysis. If you wish I can try to track down some actual mathematical publications, however, I am not as familiar with mathematical journals as I am with science/medical journals (not knowing which mathematical journals are acceptable). I am assuming that you have a background in math and possibly access to mathematical journals, therefore if you know the reputable ones I can do the leg work.
::::::I believe the thing that needs to be looked at is there truly a problem with the choice of test and if so what is an alternative. Bayesian might be an option but seems to be difficult to employ for this situation.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 12:36, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Able806, you still seem to miss the point about how inappropriate the Monte Carlo method (as used in the Lenski paper) is for evaluating rarely occurring events. You need to open your mind to be productive. If you simply cling to a view that Lenski (who I don't think has any meaningful education in statistics) must somehow be right, then you're not going to make any progress in understanding the flaws.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:07, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::Andy, you still have not answered what you find inappropriate about his use of the Monte Carlo method? I am a reasonable person and with evidence I do have an open mind. I provided examples last week, with a working model, showing that Monte Carlo is better than the chi-square in this case. I have also shown where the Chi-Square was inappropriate due to the occurrence size as well. So if you have any evidence that Monte Carlo should not be used in the way that Lenski used please let it be shown.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Sjohnson, I believe you just proved my point. In the literature of mean and covariance structure analysis, non-central chi-square distribution is commonly used to describe the behavior of the likelihood ratio statistic under alternative hypothesis; it is widely believed that the non-central chi-square distribution is justified by statistical theory. Actually, when the null hypothesis is not trivially violated, the non-central chi-square distribution cannot describe the LR statistic well even when data are normally distributed and the sample size is large. Monte Carlo results compare the strength of the normal distribution against that of the non-central chi-square distribution. In an association analysis comparing cases and controls with respect to allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus, a potential problem is that the conventional chi-squared test may not be valid for a large, sparse contingency table. Reliance on statistics with known asymptotic distribution is unnecessary, as Monte Carlo simulations can be performed to estimate the significance level of the test statistic.

Here is a [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html link] to a great page the provides an interactive example as to why the Chi Squared test would provide poor results compared to the Monte Carlo in relation to the Lenski data workup.

Something you may have overlooked was that the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly. It is often accepted that is any of the analyzed data falls under 10 for a particular cell of the data set then the Yates correction needs to be applied; unfortunately the Yates correction can over correct thus skewing the p-value. Lenksi seemed to understand this by supporting his Monte Carlo p-value results with the Fisher z-transformation p-value.

I hope this helps.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:27, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:I’m still waiting to hear which literature says that “Monte Carlo resampling” is “more accurate than the chi-squared test”. The page mentioned above [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html] is a discussion of why statisticians “fail to reject the null” rather than “accepting the null” when the p-value is above 0.05 or so. The page says nothing about superiority of Monte Carlo methods. Why were alternate hypothesis distributions mentioned? Only the null hypothesis distribution is used to calculate a p-value. Yates’s correction is for 2x2 contingency tables [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates%27_correction_for_continuity]. It doesn’t apply in this case. Finally, what the heck do “covariance structure analysis” and “allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus” have to do with this problem? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::SJohnson, I am looking for this paper for you, I cited it for one of my past publications dealing with allele frequencies (I believe it came from the Duke Biostatistics group). To answer your question about allele frequencies, that is the issue at hand, more about the genetics than the math, but it is the item being studied. So you stated that Yates can not be used and statistics says the number of occurrences is too small to evaluate using the Chi-Squared test so what would you recommend instead of the Monte-Carlo Method?

:Regarding the "Fisher z-transformation p-value" from the paper, garbage in garbage out. If the p-values were bad to begin with, then why would a combination of them be meaningful? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:49, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::You are assuming that p-values are wrong based on a test that is inappropriate in this case due to data limitations. Did you perform a z-transformation on the chi-squared for the three data groups?--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::You asked about the “Fisher z-transformation p-value”. The z-transformation test and Fisher’s method are actually two different things (see Whitlock's 2005 paper - Ref. 49 in Blount et al.). But no, I haven’t tried either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::There's a large literature on various kinds of Monte Carlo test, a very short summary of which is that they're inevitably more accurate than parametric tests (e.g. F, t, chi-squared, etc) because they don't make assumptions about the distribution of the data under the null hypothesis. See for example ''Introduction to the Bootstrap'' by B. Efron and R. Tibshirani and ''The Jack-knife, the Bootstrap and Other Resampling Plans'', also by Efron. They're certainly applicable to small datasets and their accuracy is really only limited by the number of samples you care to take. E.g. 1000 M-C samples would give you a pretty accurate idea about significance at the alpha<1% level (That book should answer SJohnson's questions of 18:50 on 4/3/09 and 16:38 on 5/3/09 about accuracy and Aschalfly's comment of 17:07 on 5/3/09 about appropriateness of Monte Carlo tests.) [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:53, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Your claim that Monte Carlo methods are “inevitably more accurate” than other tests is obviously wrong because the accuracy of MC methods always depends on the number of realizations used. You should have written <math>\alpha=1\%</math>, not <math>\alpha<1\%</math>. If 1,000 random realizations are generated, the number of realizations above the true <math>\alpha=1\%</math> level is binomial with mean 10 and variance about 10. Thus, the standard deviation of the MC estimate is >0.003. In this example, a Monte Carlo p-value could be off by 30% and still be within a standard deviation. Is that really “pretty accurate”?

::::Using one million MC realizations (as done in the paper) at the <math>\alpha=0.001</math> level means the standard deviation is about 10%. The paper reported a p-value of less than 0.001 (experiment two). It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the experiment two p-value for the flawed test is off because only one million realizations were used. My original statement, “When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous” is correct. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::You're talking about miniscule differences in the accuracy of a test. 0.013 isn't very different from 0.007. In either case, it's very unlikely the experimenter would have obtained that result if the null hypothesis were true. If you're bothered about differences in P-values to the third decimals (which would make you unusual!), just run more MC realisations, that's all. Not really a problem. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:53, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

There’s still confusion about the difference between test statistics and Monte Carlo methods. Before you find a Monte Carlo estimate of a p-value, you need to select a test statistic to reduce the data set to a scalar. I am interested in hearing which test statistic you believe should be used in place of the chi-square test and why. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Quick question for SJohnson: How many degrees of freedom did you choose when calculating the p-value? I'd like to know upon what condition you base that number. Thanks.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:05, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:The degree of freedom for a contingency table is rows minus one times columns minus one. That is, <math> (r-1)(c-1) </math>. Here’s a pretty good tutorial I came across: [http://faculty.uncfsu.edu/dwallace/lesson%2020.pdf]. For the experiments from [http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf], the DOFs are 11, 11, and 13. For experiment one, the chi-square test statistic is
::<math>
X^2
=\sum\limits_i\sum\limits_j
\frac{\left(n_{i,j}-E\left[n_{i,j}\right]\right)^2}
{E\left[n_{i,j}\right]}
</math>
::<math>
=\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(6-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
+\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\ldots+
</math>
::<math>
+\frac{\left(2-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(4-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
</math>
::<math>
\approx
14.82
</math>
:where <math>n_{i,j}</math> is the observed value and <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> is the expected null hypothesis value. So if you have MS Excel, another way to arrive at the p-value of 0.19 is to type “=CHIDIST(14.82,11)” into a cell. Cheers! [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::OK, thanks for the info. From what I'd calculated and looked up in tables, the numbers seemed close to a df=11 for a chi-square of ~14. (Aside: With terms having 17/3 in the denominator in the figures above, were you using the test of independence? I was using Pearson's test for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson%27s_chi-square_test#Test_for_fit_of_a_distribution fit of a distribution] which returns a chi-squared value of 14 and roughly matched the p-values you reported, assuming the df was 11).

::Also, the first sentence of the article reads: "Blount, Borland, and Lenski[1] claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a laboratory experiment. That claim is false." A small correction: There were several claims in the paper. The 'key evolutionary innovation' was acquiring the ability to utilize citrate as a food source. That claim was demonstrated multiple times. The claim, which pertains to this statistics discussion was that the Cit+ phenotype arose in a multi-step process, first requiring a rare, pre-adaptive mutation before additional mutation(s) lead to the subsequent development of citrate utilization.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:46, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::My biology-degreed wife assures me that mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution occurred. What the paper claimed is that evolution (a “key innovation”) occurred in the lab. The key innovation supposedly increased the mutation rate. In the experiments, the observed mutation rate increased after generation 31,000, but not enough to make a statistically significant claim that the rate is not constant. The analysis in the paper was similar to flipping a coin ten times, counting six heads and claiming that the coin must be biased against tails. In reality, there’s nothing surprising about a fair coin producing slightly more of one outcome than the other. Just like there's nothing surprising about there being slightly more mutations in later generations than early generations given the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate). [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::::SJohnson, not to say anything about your wife, but has she had a 400 level molecular genetics course (most general biology degrees do not cover the detail unless they are specialized)? If so, she would have mentioned that if the mutation passes to the offspring and is selectively beneficial to the population then it is a step of evolution as along as the conditions continue through the sharing of the mutation with the population and the environment is such that reduces the growth rate of the non-transformed population. While not all mutations are signs that evolution occurred the mutations that pass to offspring and provide a benefit compared to other offspring are very strong indicators. In the case of this paper the population that evolved the cit+ was able to metabolize a chemical in their environment which allowed for an adaptation advantage compared to the non-transformed colonies.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Let’s go back to the beginning. There appears to be confusion about the difference between test statistics and methods for computing p-values. As is noted at the beginning of the page [http://www.conservapedia.com/Significance_of_E._Coli_Evolution_Experiments], the fundamental problem with the paper is that it used a flawed test statistic, not that it used Monte Carlo methods to find the p-value for that flawed statistic.

Every hypothesis test uses a test statistic to reduce the data to a single number. The p-value for the test statistic can be calculated analytically (as I’ve done for the chi-square test statistic) or by Monte Carlo methods. In the paper, Monte Carlo methods were used to compute the p-value of the “mutation generation” test statistic. The key problem with the analysis from the paper is that it doesn’t work to use a weighted average to test for variations in mutation rate. This is like trying to use the sample variance to test for an increase in the mean in Gaussian-distributed data. A statistic should be selected based on the null and alternate hypothesis distributions of the data. The chi-square test (unlike the weighted average from the paper) is a reasonable choice for data that mutates at a constant rate under the null hypothesis, but mutates at varying rates under the alternate hypothesis.

Able806, you made a good point about the contingency table cell frequencies being relatively low, but were wrong when you said ”the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly”. In the low cell frequency case the chi-square test is still effective, but the null hypothesis distribution of the chi-square statistic starts to look less like the chi-square distribution. Thus, p-values calculated using the chi-square distribution may be a bit off. However, Monte Carlo p-values are always imperfect as well because it's impossible to generate an infinite number of random realizations. There are imperfections in p-values generated by analytic and Monte Carlo methods. However, low cell frequencies does not explain the >20x and >2.5x differences between chi-square p-values and p-values from the paper for experiments one and three. The reason for those huge differences was the use of the flawed test statistic (“mutation generation”) in the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:SJohnson, the chi-squared test is a valuable statistical tool, but the limitations of the test must be acknowledged. The chi-squared test can only produce valid results if the assumptions that underly the test are not violated. As an analogy, Newtonian models of motion fail to produce accurate results as velocities approach the speed of light; under those circumstances one must switch to a theory that accounts for relativistic effects.

:It seems that you have simply dismissed the [http://www.okstate.edu/ag/agedcm4h/academic/aged5980a/5980/newpage28.htm widely-acknowledged] [http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/chisq.htm fact] that the [http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Psych205/chisquareindep.html chi-squared test] is [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236 inappropriate] for use in [http://www.graphpad.com/www/Book/Choose.htm situations] where n in any cell is [http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/chisquar.htm less] less than a [http://books.google.com/books?id=yU15rUiLRI8C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=chi-square+test+assumptions&source=bl&ots=FRY0LwQ3z_&sig=FyIvzJx3hjQ8nWlu2cpmZj3pwXY&hl=en&ei=fm-1SayaNI_MMKX5tO4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#PPA185,M1 threshold] [http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/statguidefiles/gf-dist_ass_viol.html number]. Different authors set different thresholds, but all are well above the numbers seen in your chi-squared analysis - even the most liberal guidelines advise against the chi-squared test when any expected cell frequency is less than one or more than 20% of the table cells are less than 5; others require that expected values in all cells must be more than 5. With smaller amounts of data, the test is insensitive and errs on the side of rejecting the hypothesis. If you attempt your chi-squared statistical analysis with a program that is more sophisticated than MS Excel (as I did), you get an error message indicating that the results are invalid due to low expected cell counts.

:That issue aside, there are other reasons that the chi-squared test is inappropriate here. As the links above point out, the categories tested must be truly independent; one example is that you can't use the chi-squared test to compare age and ability to kick a field goal by testing the same experimental group twice, one year apart; you have to test one group of age A and a different group of age B. In the case of the Blount paper, the categories are not independent. Even if there were adequate numbers to address the low-expected-frequency problem, this would make the chi-squared an invalid test in this case.

:There are other significant problems with the use of the chi-squared test in this circumstance, but they can wait until you address these first major problems.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 12:18, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::Wackerly et al. says in general it’s assumed that the cell frequencies are above five so that the chi-square statistic (under the null) is approximately chi-square distributed (see p. 703). That book does not say chi-square test results are invalid if frequencies are five or less. Your example of a chi-square test warning message (it said "warning" not "error" as you stated) in Minitab [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236] said “approximation probably invalid” referring to the chi-square distribution approximation to the chi-square test statistic’s distribution. Your example did not say “chi-square test invalid”. I agree that when cell frequencies are low, the chi-square test statistic’s distribution starts to deviate from the chi-square distribution. I maintain that this deviation is not enough to explain the >2.5x and >20x differences in the chi-square test p-values and the p-values from the paper.

::As the numerous links in your post proved, the chi-square test is widely-used by statisticians. Can you give examples of statisticians using mean mutation generation as a test statistic? Also, did your software agree with the chi-square test p-values I presented? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Thank you for giving page references for Wackerly; however it seems we have different editions, since page 703 in my copy (5th ed, 1996) does not deal with chi-squared issues at all. My copy does state the following, on page 622: "Although the mathematical proof is beyond the scope of this text, it can be shown that, when n is large [chi-squared] will possess approximately a chi-square probability distribution in repeated sampling." Then, on page 624: "Experience has shown that cell counts [n sub i] should not be too small in order that the chi-square distribution provide an accurate approximation to the distribution of [chi squared]. As a rule of thumb we require that all expected cell counts equal or exceed 5, although Cochran (1952) has noted that this value can be as low as 1 for some situations." Wackerly then goes on, in the problems sections, to describe the use of the chi-squared test as a "violation of good statistical practice" when "some expected counts [are] <5."

:::It seems that you are already aware that the [chi-square] statistic under the null is no longer chi-square distributed for small n; this is precisely why the test should not be used under those conditions. I can claim to be able to accelerate a 1-kg mass to 10 times the speed of light by applying 1 N of force for 95 years by using F=ma and t= (vf-vi)/a. Plugging the numbers into those equations will produce the same result every time, but the answer is illegitimate because those equations are only valid under certain assumptions, which are violated as velocities approach the speed of light. Similarly, having a statistical program calculate a chi-squared value given the Blount data will produce a number result, but since the assumptions of the test are violated the result is not legitimate. Yes, if I put the Blount data in SAS 9.2, I get the same numerical answer as you do, but I also get the following message: "WARNING: >89% of the cells have expected counts less than 5. Chi-square may not be a valid test." You may argue that that's a warning, not an error; that's a semantic distinction. The reason that the program says that it MAY not be valid is that the chi-squared test skews in the direction of being too conservative at low n values; the test has an acceptable rate of false positives but an unacceptably high rate of false negatives. Comparing the results of the Monte Carlo and chi-squared results in this case is like comparing the results of Newtonian and relativistic equations of motion: they can produce very different results from the same input data.

:::Your last paragraph has a major non sequitur in it: yes, many statisticians use the chi-square test. As long as the assumptions of the test are not violated, it is a valuable tool. That has nothing to do with the validity of using mean mutation generation as a test statistic. 'Mean number of werewolf attacks in Mumbai in the week centered on the new moon, by month, from 1654 to 1798' is a valid test statistic. I am quite sure that it has never been used in a peer-reviewed paper before. That does not mean that I can't perform valid statistical tests on that statistic. If, however, the incorrect test is applied, the results of the analysis will be flawed. Papers apply a (relatively small) standard repertoire of valid tests to a (potentially infinite) number of test statistics. The particular test statistic used in a paper may never have been used before and may never be used again; that does not address the validity of the analysis. In Blount's case, the test is the Monte Carlo analysis, which is also "widely-used by statisticians".

:::We still haven't touched on the issue of the categories not being independent, which by itself is sufficient to invalidate the chi-squared technique. I'm new to this site, so I'm unsure as to the etiquette of making changes to the articles of another person - but the article here should at the very least mention that the chi-square test is being used here in a manner that violates its underlying assumptions in at least two fundamental ways, and the results are therefore suspect.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:34, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: It looks to me as though SJohnson has misinterpreted the application of the chi-squared test in quite a fundamental way. His/her analysis of Blount's data are therefore close to meaningless, regardless of whether the test used by Blount is appropriate or not. In my opinion, the entire page should therefore be deleted. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 08:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

::::: "Fred", perhaps you mistakenly think this is Wikipedia, where [[censorship]] and deletion of pages for ideological reasons are common. Not here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:23, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Umm... I'm suggesting deletion for mathematical reasons, not ideological reasons. Using an argument filled with mathematical errors to try to support your case only detracts from your credibility. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:38, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Actually, I think correction is better than deletion. So that's what I've done. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:01, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::: I find no credibility in your denial of having ideological reasons.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:04, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

== Misinterpretation of test ==

SJohnson, Your analysis misinterprets the test. You say the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen. They saw a mutation (4 mutations, in fact, in the data set you show) so the null hypothesis (as you state is) is disproved. That's perfectly straightforward.

I don't know what the "mean mutation generation" test is but you're doing when you apply a chi-squared test to this dataset is to test if the mutations are evenly distributed throughout the generations. Your test says they are, so there's no strong evidence to suppose that mutations are likely to occur in one generation rather than another in the series of tests. Blount's test says thay aren't, so it's more likely that the mutation will occur later in the series of tests. I can't tell which test is right without knowing more about the test that Blount used.

But that point (the foregoing paragraph) has no bearing at all on the null hypothesis, as you describe it. The mutation appeared, so that means the hypothesis that the mutation can't happen is disproved. Very simple. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 21:10, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

:I never said that “the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen”. The chi-square test statistic I'm using wouldn’t be defined if the null hypothesis mutation rate was zero because the <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> term in the denominator of the statistic (see above equation) would be zero.

:The test statistic from the paper is the average of the generation numbers of observed mutations. For experiment one this number is
::<math>
\frac{1}{4}\left(30500+31500+2\times32500\right)= 31750.
</math>
:The same number is shown in Table 2 of the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: SJohnson, the way you're calculating the chi-squared statistic implies that you're testing the null hypothesis of a constant mutation rate over time against an alternative hypothesis of a mutation rate which varies over time. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:02, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

==Unreferenced Claims==

I deleted the claim that mean mutation generation is an appropriate test statistic because no reference was produced that back that claim. No reference was provided to back the claim that the chi-square test p-values are always conservative, either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 12:57, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

: The reference is Everitt. I'll check I put it in the right place. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 13:30, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

There was a typo in my edit summaries on the talk page and the main page. I meant to say "Removed unsupported claims" rather than "Removed supported claims". [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 13:13, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T15:01:01Z

FredFerguson: Suggesting correction rather than deletion

SJohnson, your assessment, while good in the utilization of the chi-squared test is unfortunately incorrect. The Monte Carlo resampling gives a more accurate p-value than the chi-squared. You may research the literature (i.e. publications in statistical mathematics, many pubs actualy compare Monte Carlo vs Chi Squared) to discover that this method is commonly used in advance statistical work and how it is more accurate than the chi-squared test.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 17:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:It doesn’t make sense to compare the chi-square test, which is a specific statistical hypothesis test, to Monte Carlo methods, which can be used for anything from fluid motion modeling to p-value computations. You can use Monte Carlo methods to compute the p-values of the chi-square test!

:Monte Carlo methods involve the generation of random realizations. Your broad claim the Monte Carlo methods are “more accurate” than the chi-square test is obviously incorrect because the accuracy of Monte Carlo methods always depends on the number of random realizations generated. When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous.

:Which publications compare Monte Carlo to chi-square and show that the former is more accurate? Could you provide specific examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 18:50, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:In furtherance of SJohnson's remarks with respect to rarely occurring events, the use of the basic Monte Carlo method is plainly incorrect for modeling a rarely occurring event, as the Lenski paper did. This has long been pointed out in [[Flaws in Richard Lenski Study]]. I know [[evolutionists]] will never admit a flaw in anything promoting their pet theory, but this (and other) flaws in that paper is undeniable.

:Watch how evolutionists defended obvious errors in the Lenski paper, and then realize why the [[Piltdown Man]] fraud was taught for 40 years without evolutionists admitting it was a hoax.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:55, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::Andy, how exactly is the Monte Carlo method incorrect to use in this case? I have seen it used in publications with much smaller datasets.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:29, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::Able806, I'm interested in looking at the publications you mentioned that use Monte Carlo methods to analyze small data sets. Could you provide some examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:41, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::SJohnson, here are two papers, [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-45RFJ1J-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ad95954654bb97b17e474ce6b469f6e 1] and [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=787963 2]. Most are in chemistry and genetics where you find the observed to be much smaller and have to use the MCM. You can search on the subject as well and find that how Lenski performed the test is the standard for microbiological genetic analysis.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::Those papers have nothing to do with hypothesis testing. One is an archeology paper. To be blunt, it seems like you’re just doing internet searches on “Monte Carlo” to find these links. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::SJohnson, actually they do, did you read the papers? If so you would see how they used the MCM for their data analysis of small data sets, which indeed was hypothesis testing and answers you inquiry about publications that use MCM for small data set analysis. If you wish I can try to track down some actual mathematical publications, however, I am not as familiar with mathematical journals as I am with science/medical journals (not knowing which mathematical journals are acceptable). I am assuming that you have a background in math and possibly access to mathematical journals, therefore if you know the reputable ones I can do the leg work.
::::::I believe the thing that needs to be looked at is there truly a problem with the choice of test and if so what is an alternative. Bayesian might be an option but seems to be difficult to employ for this situation.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 12:36, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Able806, you still seem to miss the point about how inappropriate the Monte Carlo method (as used in the Lenski paper) is for evaluating rarely occurring events. You need to open your mind to be productive. If you simply cling to a view that Lenski (who I don't think has any meaningful education in statistics) must somehow be right, then you're not going to make any progress in understanding the flaws.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:07, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::Andy, you still have not answered what you find inappropriate about his use of the Monte Carlo method? I am a reasonable person and with evidence I do have an open mind. I provided examples last week, with a working model, showing that Monte Carlo is better than the chi-square in this case. I have also shown where the Chi-Square was inappropriate due to the occurrence size as well. So if you have any evidence that Monte Carlo should not be used in the way that Lenski used please let it be shown.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Sjohnson, I believe you just proved my point. In the literature of mean and covariance structure analysis, non-central chi-square distribution is commonly used to describe the behavior of the likelihood ratio statistic under alternative hypothesis; it is widely believed that the non-central chi-square distribution is justified by statistical theory. Actually, when the null hypothesis is not trivially violated, the non-central chi-square distribution cannot describe the LR statistic well even when data are normally distributed and the sample size is large. Monte Carlo results compare the strength of the normal distribution against that of the non-central chi-square distribution. In an association analysis comparing cases and controls with respect to allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus, a potential problem is that the conventional chi-squared test may not be valid for a large, sparse contingency table. Reliance on statistics with known asymptotic distribution is unnecessary, as Monte Carlo simulations can be performed to estimate the significance level of the test statistic.

Here is a [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html link] to a great page the provides an interactive example as to why the Chi Squared test would provide poor results compared to the Monte Carlo in relation to the Lenski data workup.

Something you may have overlooked was that the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly. It is often accepted that is any of the analyzed data falls under 10 for a particular cell of the data set then the Yates correction needs to be applied; unfortunately the Yates correction can over correct thus skewing the p-value. Lenksi seemed to understand this by supporting his Monte Carlo p-value results with the Fisher z-transformation p-value.

I hope this helps.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:27, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:I’m still waiting to hear which literature says that “Monte Carlo resampling” is “more accurate than the chi-squared test”. The page mentioned above [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html] is a discussion of why statisticians “fail to reject the null” rather than “accepting the null” when the p-value is above 0.05 or so. The page says nothing about superiority of Monte Carlo methods. Why were alternate hypothesis distributions mentioned? Only the null hypothesis distribution is used to calculate a p-value. Yates’s correction is for 2x2 contingency tables [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates%27_correction_for_continuity]. It doesn’t apply in this case. Finally, what the heck do “covariance structure analysis” and “allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus” have to do with this problem? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::SJohnson, I am looking for this paper for you, I cited it for one of my past publications dealing with allele frequencies (I believe it came from the Duke Biostatistics group). To answer your question about allele frequencies, that is the issue at hand, more about the genetics than the math, but it is the item being studied. So you stated that Yates can not be used and statistics says the number of occurrences is too small to evaluate using the Chi-Squared test so what would you recommend instead of the Monte-Carlo Method?

:Regarding the "Fisher z-transformation p-value" from the paper, garbage in garbage out. If the p-values were bad to begin with, then why would a combination of them be meaningful? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:49, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::You are assuming that p-values are wrong based on a test that is inappropriate in this case due to data limitations. Did you perform a z-transformation on the chi-squared for the three data groups?--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::You asked about the “Fisher z-transformation p-value”. The z-transformation test and Fisher’s method are actually two different things (see Whitlock's 2005 paper - Ref. 49 in Blount et al.). But no, I haven’t tried either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::There's a large literature on various kinds of Monte Carlo test, a very short summary of which is that they're inevitably more accurate than parametric tests (e.g. F, t, chi-squared, etc) because they don't make assumptions about the distribution of the data under the null hypothesis. See for example ''Introduction to the Bootstrap'' by B. Efron and R. Tibshirani and ''The Jack-knife, the Bootstrap and Other Resampling Plans'', also by Efron. They're certainly applicable to small datasets and their accuracy is really only limited by the number of samples you care to take. E.g. 1000 M-C samples would give you a pretty accurate idea about significance at the alpha<1% level (That book should answer SJohnson's questions of 18:50 on 4/3/09 and 16:38 on 5/3/09 about accuracy and Aschalfly's comment of 17:07 on 5/3/09 about appropriateness of Monte Carlo tests.) [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:53, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Your claim that Monte Carlo methods are “inevitably more accurate” than other tests is obviously wrong because the accuracy of MC methods always depends on the number of realizations used. You should have written <math>\alpha=1\%</math>, not <math>\alpha<1\%</math>. If 1,000 random realizations are generated, the number of realizations above the true <math>\alpha=1\%</math> level is binomial with mean 10 and variance about 10. Thus, the standard deviation of the MC estimate is >0.003. In this example, a Monte Carlo p-value could be off by 30% and still be within a standard deviation. Is that really “pretty accurate”?

::::Using one million MC realizations (as done in the paper) at the <math>\alpha=0.001</math> level means the standard deviation is about 10%. The paper reported a p-value of less than 0.001 (experiment two). It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the experiment two p-value for the flawed test is off because only one million realizations were used. My original statement, “When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous” is correct. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::You're talking about miniscule differences in the accuracy of a test. 0.013 isn't very different from 0.007. In either case, it's very unlikely the experimenter would have obtained that result if the null hypothesis were true. If you're bothered about differences in P-values to the third decimals (which would make you unusual!), just run more MC realisations, that's all. Not really a problem. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:53, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

There’s still confusion about the difference between test statistics and Monte Carlo methods. Before you find a Monte Carlo estimate of a p-value, you need to select a test statistic to reduce the data set to a scalar. I am interested in hearing which test statistic you believe should be used in place of the chi-square test and why. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Quick question for SJohnson: How many degrees of freedom did you choose when calculating the p-value? I'd like to know upon what condition you base that number. Thanks.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:05, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:The degree of freedom for a contingency table is rows minus one times columns minus one. That is, <math> (r-1)(c-1) </math>. Here’s a pretty good tutorial I came across: [http://faculty.uncfsu.edu/dwallace/lesson%2020.pdf]. For the experiments from [http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf], the DOFs are 11, 11, and 13. For experiment one, the chi-square test statistic is
::<math>
X^2
=\sum\limits_i\sum\limits_j
\frac{\left(n_{i,j}-E\left[n_{i,j}\right]\right)^2}
{E\left[n_{i,j}\right]}
</math>
::<math>
=\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(6-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
+\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\ldots+
</math>
::<math>
+\frac{\left(2-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(4-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
</math>
::<math>
\approx
14.82
</math>
:where <math>n_{i,j}</math> is the observed value and <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> is the expected null hypothesis value. So if you have MS Excel, another way to arrive at the p-value of 0.19 is to type “=CHIDIST(14.82,11)” into a cell. Cheers! [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::OK, thanks for the info. From what I'd calculated and looked up in tables, the numbers seemed close to a df=11 for a chi-square of ~14. (Aside: With terms having 17/3 in the denominator in the figures above, were you using the test of independence? I was using Pearson's test for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson%27s_chi-square_test#Test_for_fit_of_a_distribution fit of a distribution] which returns a chi-squared value of 14 and roughly matched the p-values you reported, assuming the df was 11).

::Also, the first sentence of the article reads: "Blount, Borland, and Lenski[1] claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a laboratory experiment. That claim is false." A small correction: There were several claims in the paper. The 'key evolutionary innovation' was acquiring the ability to utilize citrate as a food source. That claim was demonstrated multiple times. The claim, which pertains to this statistics discussion was that the Cit+ phenotype arose in a multi-step process, first requiring a rare, pre-adaptive mutation before additional mutation(s) lead to the subsequent development of citrate utilization.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:46, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::My biology-degreed wife assures me that mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution occurred. What the paper claimed is that evolution (a “key innovation”) occurred in the lab. The key innovation supposedly increased the mutation rate. In the experiments, the observed mutation rate increased after generation 31,000, but not enough to make a statistically significant claim that the rate is not constant. The analysis in the paper was similar to flipping a coin ten times, counting six heads and claiming that the coin must be biased against tails. In reality, there’s nothing surprising about a fair coin producing slightly more of one outcome than the other. Just like there's nothing surprising about there being slightly more mutations in later generations than early generations given the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate). [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::::SJohnson, not to say anything about your wife, but has she had a 400 level molecular genetics course (most general biology degrees do not cover the detail unless they are specialized)? If so, she would have mentioned that if the mutation passes to the offspring and is selectively beneficial to the population then it is a step of evolution as along as the conditions continue through the sharing of the mutation with the population and the environment is such that reduces the growth rate of the non-transformed population. While not all mutations are signs that evolution occurred the mutations that pass to offspring and provide a benefit compared to other offspring are very strong indicators. In the case of this paper the population that evolved the cit+ was able to metabolize a chemical in their environment which allowed for an adaptation advantage compared to the non-transformed colonies.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Let’s go back to the beginning. There appears to be confusion about the difference between test statistics and methods for computing p-values. As is noted at the beginning of the page [http://www.conservapedia.com/Significance_of_E._Coli_Evolution_Experiments], the fundamental problem with the paper is that it used a flawed test statistic, not that it used Monte Carlo methods to find the p-value for that flawed statistic.

Every hypothesis test uses a test statistic to reduce the data to a single number. The p-value for the test statistic can be calculated analytically (as I’ve done for the chi-square test statistic) or by Monte Carlo methods. In the paper, Monte Carlo methods were used to compute the p-value of the “mutation generation” test statistic. The key problem with the analysis from the paper is that it doesn’t work to use a weighted average to test for variations in mutation rate. This is like trying to use the sample variance to test for an increase in the mean in Gaussian-distributed data. A statistic should be selected based on the null and alternate hypothesis distributions of the data. The chi-square test (unlike the weighted average from the paper) is a reasonable choice for data that mutates at a constant rate under the null hypothesis, but mutates at varying rates under the alternate hypothesis.

Able806, you made a good point about the contingency table cell frequencies being relatively low, but were wrong when you said ”the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly”. In the low cell frequency case the chi-square test is still effective, but the null hypothesis distribution of the chi-square statistic starts to look less like the chi-square distribution. Thus, p-values calculated using the chi-square distribution may be a bit off. However, Monte Carlo p-values are always imperfect as well because it's impossible to generate an infinite number of random realizations. There are imperfections in p-values generated by analytic and Monte Carlo methods. However, low cell frequencies does not explain the >20x and >2.5x differences between chi-square p-values and p-values from the paper for experiments one and three. The reason for those huge differences was the use of the flawed test statistic (“mutation generation”) in the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:SJohnson, the chi-squared test is a valuable statistical tool, but the limitations of the test must be acknowledged. The chi-squared test can only produce valid results if the assumptions that underly the test are not violated. As an analogy, Newtonian models of motion fail to produce accurate results as velocities approach the speed of light; under those circumstances one must switch to a theory that accounts for relativistic effects.

:It seems that you have simply dismissed the [http://www.okstate.edu/ag/agedcm4h/academic/aged5980a/5980/newpage28.htm widely-acknowledged] [http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/chisq.htm fact] that the [http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Psych205/chisquareindep.html chi-squared test] is [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236 inappropriate] for use in [http://www.graphpad.com/www/Book/Choose.htm situations] where n in any cell is [http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/chisquar.htm less] less than a [http://books.google.com/books?id=yU15rUiLRI8C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=chi-square+test+assumptions&source=bl&ots=FRY0LwQ3z_&sig=FyIvzJx3hjQ8nWlu2cpmZj3pwXY&hl=en&ei=fm-1SayaNI_MMKX5tO4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#PPA185,M1 threshold] [http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/statguidefiles/gf-dist_ass_viol.html number]. Different authors set different thresholds, but all are well above the numbers seen in your chi-squared analysis - even the most liberal guidelines advise against the chi-squared test when any expected cell frequency is less than one or more than 20% of the table cells are less than 5; others require that expected values in all cells must be more than 5. With smaller amounts of data, the test is insensitive and errs on the side of rejecting the hypothesis. If you attempt your chi-squared statistical analysis with a program that is more sophisticated than MS Excel (as I did), you get an error message indicating that the results are invalid due to low expected cell counts.

:That issue aside, there are other reasons that the chi-squared test is inappropriate here. As the links above point out, the categories tested must be truly independent; one example is that you can't use the chi-squared test to compare age and ability to kick a field goal by testing the same experimental group twice, one year apart; you have to test one group of age A and a different group of age B. In the case of the Blount paper, the categories are not independent. Even if there were adequate numbers to address the low-expected-frequency problem, this would make the chi-squared an invalid test in this case.

:There are other significant problems with the use of the chi-squared test in this circumstance, but they can wait until you address these first major problems.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 12:18, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::Wackerly et al. says in general it’s assumed that the cell frequencies are above five so that the chi-square statistic (under the null) is approximately chi-square distributed (see p. 703). That book does not say chi-square test results are invalid if frequencies are five or less. Your example of a chi-square test warning message (it said "warning" not "error" as you stated) in Minitab [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236] said “approximation probably invalid” referring to the chi-square distribution approximation to the chi-square test statistic’s distribution. Your example did not say “chi-square test invalid”. I agree that when cell frequencies are low, the chi-square test statistic’s distribution starts to deviate from the chi-square distribution. I maintain that this deviation is not enough to explain the >2.5x and >20x differences in the chi-square test p-values and the p-values from the paper.

::As the numerous links in your post proved, the chi-square test is widely-used by statisticians. Can you give examples of statisticians using mean mutation generation as a test statistic? Also, did your software agree with the chi-square test p-values I presented? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Thank you for giving page references for Wackerly; however it seems we have different editions, since page 703 in my copy (5th ed, 1996) does not deal with chi-squared issues at all. My copy does state the following, on page 622: "Although the mathematical proof is beyond the scope of this text, it can be shown that, when n is large [chi-squared] will possess approximately a chi-square probability distribution in repeated sampling." Then, on page 624: "Experience has shown that cell counts [n sub i] should not be too small in order that the chi-square distribution provide an accurate approximation to the distribution of [chi squared]. As a rule of thumb we require that all expected cell counts equal or exceed 5, although Cochran (1952) has noted that this value can be as low as 1 for some situations." Wackerly then goes on, in the problems sections, to describe the use of the chi-squared test as a "violation of good statistical practice" when "some expected counts [are] <5."

:::It seems that you are already aware that the [chi-square] statistic under the null is no longer chi-square distributed for small n; this is precisely why the test should not be used under those conditions. I can claim to be able to accelerate a 1-kg mass to 10 times the speed of light by applying 1 N of force for 95 years by using F=ma and t= (vf-vi)/a. Plugging the numbers into those equations will produce the same result every time, but the answer is illegitimate because those equations are only valid under certain assumptions, which are violated as velocities approach the speed of light. Similarly, having a statistical program calculate a chi-squared value given the Blount data will produce a number result, but since the assumptions of the test are violated the result is not legitimate. Yes, if I put the Blount data in SAS 9.2, I get the same numerical answer as you do, but I also get the following message: "WARNING: >89% of the cells have expected counts less than 5. Chi-square may not be a valid test." You may argue that that's a warning, not an error; that's a semantic distinction. The reason that the program says that it MAY not be valid is that the chi-squared test skews in the direction of being too conservative at low n values; the test has an acceptable rate of false positives but an unacceptably high rate of false negatives. Comparing the results of the Monte Carlo and chi-squared results in this case is like comparing the results of Newtonian and relativistic equations of motion: they can produce very different results from the same input data.

:::Your last paragraph has a major non sequitur in it: yes, many statisticians use the chi-square test. As long as the assumptions of the test are not violated, it is a valuable tool. That has nothing to do with the validity of using mean mutation generation as a test statistic. 'Mean number of werewolf attacks in Mumbai in the week centered on the new moon, by month, from 1654 to 1798' is a valid test statistic. I am quite sure that it has never been used in a peer-reviewed paper before. That does not mean that I can't perform valid statistical tests on that statistic. If, however, the incorrect test is applied, the results of the analysis will be flawed. Papers apply a (relatively small) standard repertoire of valid tests to a (potentially infinite) number of test statistics. The particular test statistic used in a paper may never have been used before and may never be used again; that does not address the validity of the analysis. In Blount's case, the test is the Monte Carlo analysis, which is also "widely-used by statisticians".

:::We still haven't touched on the issue of the categories not being independent, which by itself is sufficient to invalidate the chi-squared technique. I'm new to this site, so I'm unsure as to the etiquette of making changes to the articles of another person - but the article here should at the very least mention that the chi-square test is being used here in a manner that violates its underlying assumptions in at least two fundamental ways, and the results are therefore suspect.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:34, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: It looks to me as though SJohnson has misinterpreted the application of the chi-squared test in quite a fundamental way. His/her analysis of Blount's data are therefore close to meaningless, regardless of whether the test used by Blount is appropriate or not. In my opinion, the entire page should therefore be deleted. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 08:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

::::: "Fred", perhaps you mistakenly think this is Wikipedia, where [[censorship]] and deletion of pages for ideological reasons are common. Not here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:23, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Umm... I'm suggesting deletion for mathematical reasons, not ideological reasons. Using an argument filled with mathematical errors to try to support your case only detracts from your credibility. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:38, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Actually, I think correction is better than deletion. So that's what I've done. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:01, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

== Misinterpretation of test ==

SJohnson, Your analysis misinterprets the test. You say the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen. They saw a mutation (4 mutations, in fact, in the data set you show) so the null hypothesis (as you state is) is disproved. That's perfectly straightforward.

I don't know what the "mean mutation generation" test is but you're doing when you apply a chi-squared test to this dataset is to test if the mutations are evenly distributed throughout the generations. Your test says they are, so there's no strong evidence to suppose that mutations are likely to occur in one generation rather than another in the series of tests. Blount's test says thay aren't, so it's more likely that the mutation will occur later in the series of tests. I can't tell which test is right without knowing more about the test that Blount used.

But that point (the foregoing paragraph) has no bearing at all on the null hypothesis, as you describe it. The mutation appeared, so that means the hypothesis that the mutation can't happen is disproved. Very simple. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 21:10, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

:I never said that “the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen”. The chi-square test statistic I'm using wouldn’t be defined if the null hypothesis mutation rate was zero because the <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> term in the denominator of the statistic (see above equation) would be zero.

:The test statistic from the paper is the average of the generation numbers of observed mutations. For experiment one this number is
::<math>
\frac{1}{4}\left(30500+31500+2\times32500\right)= 31750.
</math>
:The same number is shown in Table 2 of the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: SJohnson, the way you're calculating the chi-squared statistic implies that you're testing the null hypothesis of a constant mutation rate over time against an alternative hypothesis of a mutation rate which varies over time. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:02, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

User talk:FredFerguson

2009-03-14T14:59:35Z

FredFerguson:

{{welcome|sig=-[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 09:15, 13 March 2009 (EDT)}}

==Warning==

Please do not throw around accusations lightly. Someone has taken the time to create a needed page and discuss it with you -- it is rather arrogant and disrespectful to then say the page needs to be deleted. -[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 09:15, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

: The numerous mistakes in the page in question have been thoroughly discussed by me and others. It's not arrogant to say a page should be deleted when it's almost completely inaccurate. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:13, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

:: Can you enumerate the "numerous mistakes" on the page? And do you disagree with the chi-square test p-values on the page? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 09:59, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

::: I've corrected the page. I think your chi-squared calculations were right but it isn't an appropriate test in this situation. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:59, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T14:58:46Z

FredFerguson: Intro to page

Blount, Borland, and [[Lenski]]<ref> http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf</ref> claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a [[laboratory]] [[experiment]]. That claim was based on a Monte Carlo statistical test of ''mean mutation generation'' which is appropriate for examining rare events. The analysis below shows that a standard test from the statistics literature, the chi-squared test, produces artificially high p-values.

==Experiment One Data==

The data from experiment one of the paper is shown below (see Table 1 of the paper). The expected outcomes under the null hypothesis (rate of mutation is constant over time) are also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|10000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|20000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|25000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|27500
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|29000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32500
|6
|2
|4
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|-
!Total
!72
!4
!68
!4
!68
|}

When the test used by Blount is used to compute the significance of this data, the p-value is 0.0085 (see Table 2 of the paper). This p-value is considered statistically significant, implying that the rate of mutation increases over time. However, when the data is analyzed using a standard method (the chi-square test) the p-value is 0.19. This p-value suggests that the mutation rate is constant over time. Note, however, that the chi-squared test is conservative when any expected value is less than 1 and unreliable when, as in the present case, many expected values are less than 0.5 <ref>B.S. Everitt (1977) ''The Analysis of Contingency Tables''. Chapman & Hall.</ref>. Consequently, while the p-value of 0.19 appears to suggest there is no reason to reject the null hypothesis, it is in fact much too high and the results of the chi-squared test are unreliable.

In statistical terms, ''conservative'' means that the p-value is higher than it ought to be, causing the experimenter to accept the null hypothesis when it should in fact be rejected.

The chi-square test is a common statistical method.<ref>''Mathematical Statistics with Applications'' by Wackerly, Mendenhall, and Scheaffer, Section 14.4.</ref> It can be implemented in Microsoft Excel. If the numbers from the last four columns of the experiment one data table (excluding the “totals” row) are entered into Excel in rows 1-12 and columns A-D, then the p-value can be computed by entering “=CHITEST(A1:B12,C1:D12)” into any empty cell of the spreadsheet.

==Experiment Three Data==

The experiment three data from Blount et al. is shown in the table below. The expected numbers of mutants under the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate) is also shown. As for Experiment 1, the p-value of 0.22 might appear to suggest that the null hypothesis should be accepted. But for exactly the same reason as in Experiment 1, this p-value is highly conservative (in statistical terms) and cannot be considered a reliable test of the null hypothesis.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|10000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|20000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|25000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|27500
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|29000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30000
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32000
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32500
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|-
!Total
!2800
!8
!2792
!8
!2792
|}

==Comparison of p-Values==

The following table compares the p-values reported in Table 2 of Blount et al. to the chi-square p-values for the same experiments. For experiments one and three, the chi-square p-values are much larger than the "mean generation" test p-values from the paper. This is because the small expected number of mutants causes the chi-squared test to be conservative, meaning that the null hypothesis may be accepted when in fact it ought to be rejected. The chi-squared test is unreliable in this situation.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
|
!Experiment 1
!Experiment 2
!Experiment 3
|-
!p-Value from Paper
|0.0085
|0.0007
|0.082
|-
!Chi-square p-value
|0.19
|0.0004
|0.22
|}

==References==
<references/>
[[Category:Conservapedia Dealings with PNAS and Lenski]]
[[Category:Statistics]]

==See Also==
http://www.sciencenews.org/index/feature/activity/view/id/40006/title/Molecular_Evolution

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/40649/title/FOR_KIDS_Hitting_the_redo_button_on_evolution

Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T14:53:34Z

FredFerguson: /* Comparison of p-Values */ Chi-squared test unreliable.

Blount, Borland, and [[Lenski]]<ref> http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf</ref> claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a [[laboratory]] [[experiment]]. That claim is false. The claim was based on incorrect measurements of statistical significance. Rather than using a test from the statistics literature, a flawed test was contrived and used to measure significance. The flawed test (“mean mutation generation”) produced artificially low p-values.

==Experiment One Data==

The data from experiment one of the paper is shown below (see Table 1 of the paper). The expected outcomes under the null hypothesis (rate of mutation is constant over time) are also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|10000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|20000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|25000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|27500
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|29000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32500
|6
|2
|4
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|-
!Total
!72
!4
!68
!4
!68
|}

When the test used by Blount is used to compute the significance of this data, the p-value is 0.0085 (see Table 2 of the paper). This p-value is considered statistically significant, implying that the rate of mutation increases over time. However, when the data is analyzed using a standard method (the chi-square test) the p-value is 0.19. This p-value suggests that the mutation rate is constant over time. Note, however, that the chi-squared test is conservative when any expected value is less than 1 and unreliable when, as in the present case, many expected values are less than 0.5 <ref>B.S. Everitt (1977) ''The Analysis of Contingency Tables''. Chapman & Hall.</ref>. Consequently, while the p-value of 0.19 appears to suggest there is no reason to reject the null hypothesis, it is in fact much too high and the results of the chi-squared test are unreliable.

In statistical terms, ''conservative'' means that the p-value is higher than it ought to be, causing the experimenter to accept the null hypothesis when it should in fact be rejected.

The chi-square test is a common statistical method.<ref>''Mathematical Statistics with Applications'' by Wackerly, Mendenhall, and Scheaffer, Section 14.4.</ref> It can be implemented in Microsoft Excel. If the numbers from the last four columns of the experiment one data table (excluding the “totals” row) are entered into Excel in rows 1-12 and columns A-D, then the p-value can be computed by entering “=CHITEST(A1:B12,C1:D12)” into any empty cell of the spreadsheet.

==Experiment Three Data==

The experiment three data from Blount et al. is shown in the table below. The expected numbers of mutants under the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate) is also shown. As for Experiment 1, the p-value of 0.22 might appear to suggest that the null hypothesis should be accepted. But for exactly the same reason as in Experiment 1, this p-value is highly conservative (in statistical terms) and cannot be considered a reliable test of the null hypothesis.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|10000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|20000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|25000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|27500
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|29000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30000
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32000
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32500
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|-
!Total
!2800
!8
!2792
!8
!2792
|}

==Comparison of p-Values==

The following table compares the p-values reported in Table 2 of Blount et al. to the chi-square p-values for the same experiments. For experiments one and three, the chi-square p-values are much larger than the "mean generation" test p-values from the paper. This is because the small expected number of mutants causes the chi-squared test to be conservative, meaning that the null hypothesis may be accepted when in fact it ought to be rejected. The chi-squared test is unreliable in this situation.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
|
!Experiment 1
!Experiment 2
!Experiment 3
|-
!p-Value from Paper
|0.0085
|0.0007
|0.082
|-
!Chi-square p-value
|0.19
|0.0004
|0.22
|}

==References==
<references/>
[[Category:Conservapedia Dealings with PNAS and Lenski]]
[[Category:Statistics]]

==See Also==
http://www.sciencenews.org/index/feature/activity/view/id/40006/title/Molecular_Evolution

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/40649/title/FOR_KIDS_Hitting_the_redo_button_on_evolution

Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T14:51:36Z

FredFerguson: /* Experiment Three Data */ Conservative p-value

Blount, Borland, and [[Lenski]]<ref> http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf</ref> claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a [[laboratory]] [[experiment]]. That claim is false. The claim was based on incorrect measurements of statistical significance. Rather than using a test from the statistics literature, a flawed test was contrived and used to measure significance. The flawed test (“mean mutation generation”) produced artificially low p-values.

==Experiment One Data==

The data from experiment one of the paper is shown below (see Table 1 of the paper). The expected outcomes under the null hypothesis (rate of mutation is constant over time) are also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|10000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|20000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|25000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|27500
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|29000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32500
|6
|2
|4
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|-
!Total
!72
!4
!68
!4
!68
|}

When the test used by Blount is used to compute the significance of this data, the p-value is 0.0085 (see Table 2 of the paper). This p-value is considered statistically significant, implying that the rate of mutation increases over time. However, when the data is analyzed using a standard method (the chi-square test) the p-value is 0.19. This p-value suggests that the mutation rate is constant over time. Note, however, that the chi-squared test is conservative when any expected value is less than 1 and unreliable when, as in the present case, many expected values are less than 0.5 <ref>B.S. Everitt (1977) ''The Analysis of Contingency Tables''. Chapman & Hall.</ref>. Consequently, while the p-value of 0.19 appears to suggest there is no reason to reject the null hypothesis, it is in fact much too high and the results of the chi-squared test are unreliable.

In statistical terms, ''conservative'' means that the p-value is higher than it ought to be, causing the experimenter to accept the null hypothesis when it should in fact be rejected.

The chi-square test is a common statistical method.<ref>''Mathematical Statistics with Applications'' by Wackerly, Mendenhall, and Scheaffer, Section 14.4.</ref> It can be implemented in Microsoft Excel. If the numbers from the last four columns of the experiment one data table (excluding the “totals” row) are entered into Excel in rows 1-12 and columns A-D, then the p-value can be computed by entering “=CHITEST(A1:B12,C1:D12)” into any empty cell of the spreadsheet.

==Experiment Three Data==

The experiment three data from Blount et al. is shown in the table below. The expected numbers of mutants under the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate) is also shown. As for Experiment 1, the p-value of 0.22 might appear to suggest that the null hypothesis should be accepted. But for exactly the same reason as in Experiment 1, this p-value is highly conservative (in statistical terms) and cannot be considered a reliable test of the null hypothesis.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|10000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|20000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|25000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|27500
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|29000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30000
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32000
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32500
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|-
!Total
!2800
!8
!2792
!8
!2792
|}

==Comparison of p-Values==

The following table compares the p-values reported in Table 2 of Blount et al. to the chi-square p-values for the same experiments. For experiments one and three, the chi-square p-values are much larger than the "mean generation" test p-values from the paper.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
|
!Experiment 1
!Experiment 2
!Experiment 3
|-
!p-Value from Paper
|0.0085
|0.0007
|0.082
|-
!Chi-square p-value
|0.19
|0.0004
|0.22
|}

==References==
<references/>
[[Category:Conservapedia Dealings with PNAS and Lenski]]
[[Category:Statistics]]

==See Also==
http://www.sciencenews.org/index/feature/activity/view/id/40006/title/Molecular_Evolution

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/40649/title/FOR_KIDS_Hitting_the_redo_button_on_evolution

Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T14:49:22Z

FredFerguson: /* Experiment One Data */ chi-squared test unreliable for small expected values.

Blount, Borland, and [[Lenski]]<ref> http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf</ref> claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a [[laboratory]] [[experiment]]. That claim is false. The claim was based on incorrect measurements of statistical significance. Rather than using a test from the statistics literature, a flawed test was contrived and used to measure significance. The flawed test (“mean mutation generation”) produced artificially low p-values.

==Experiment One Data==

The data from experiment one of the paper is shown below (see Table 1 of the paper). The expected outcomes under the null hypothesis (rate of mutation is constant over time) are also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|10000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|20000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|25000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|27500
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|29000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32500
|6
|2
|4
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|-
!Total
!72
!4
!68
!4
!68
|}

When the test used by Blount is used to compute the significance of this data, the p-value is 0.0085 (see Table 2 of the paper). This p-value is considered statistically significant, implying that the rate of mutation increases over time. However, when the data is analyzed using a standard method (the chi-square test) the p-value is 0.19. This p-value suggests that the mutation rate is constant over time. Note, however, that the chi-squared test is conservative when any expected value is less than 1 and unreliable when, as in the present case, many expected values are less than 0.5 <ref>B.S. Everitt (1977) ''The Analysis of Contingency Tables''. Chapman & Hall.</ref>. Consequently, while the p-value of 0.19 appears to suggest there is no reason to reject the null hypothesis, it is in fact much too high and the results of the chi-squared test are unreliable.

In statistical terms, ''conservative'' means that the p-value is higher than it ought to be, causing the experimenter to accept the null hypothesis when it should in fact be rejected.

The chi-square test is a common statistical method.<ref>''Mathematical Statistics with Applications'' by Wackerly, Mendenhall, and Scheaffer, Section 14.4.</ref> It can be implemented in Microsoft Excel. If the numbers from the last four columns of the experiment one data table (excluding the “totals” row) are entered into Excel in rows 1-12 and columns A-D, then the p-value can be computed by entering “=CHITEST(A1:B12,C1:D12)” into any empty cell of the spreadsheet.

==Experiment Three Data==

The experiment three data from Blount et al. is shown in the table below. The expected numbers of mutants under the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate) is also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|10000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|20000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|25000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|27500
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|29000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30000
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32000
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32500
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|-
!Total
!2800
!8
!2792
!8
!2792
|}

==Comparison of p-Values==

The following table compares the p-values reported in Table 2 of Blount et al. to the chi-square p-values for the same experiments. For experiments one and three, the chi-square p-values are much larger than the "mean generation" test p-values from the paper.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
|
!Experiment 1
!Experiment 2
!Experiment 3
|-
!p-Value from Paper
|0.0085
|0.0007
|0.082
|-
!Chi-square p-value
|0.19
|0.0004
|0.22
|}

==References==
<references/>
[[Category:Conservapedia Dealings with PNAS and Lenski]]
[[Category:Statistics]]

==See Also==
http://www.sciencenews.org/index/feature/activity/view/id/40006/title/Molecular_Evolution

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/40649/title/FOR_KIDS_Hitting_the_redo_button_on_evolution

Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T14:40:25Z

FredFerguson: /* Experiment One Data */ Correct null hypothesis

Blount, Borland, and [[Lenski]]<ref> http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf</ref> claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a [[laboratory]] [[experiment]]. That claim is false. The claim was based on incorrect measurements of statistical significance. Rather than using a test from the statistics literature, a flawed test was contrived and used to measure significance. The flawed test (“mean mutation generation”) produced artificially low p-values.

==Experiment One Data==

The data from experiment one of the paper is shown below (see Table 1 of the paper). The expected outcomes under the null hypothesis (rate of mutation is constant over time) are also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|10000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|20000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|25000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|27500
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|29000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|30500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|31500
|6
|1
|5
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32000
|6
|0
|6
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|32500
|6
|2
|4
|0.333
|5.667
|-
|-
!Total
!72
!4
!68
!4
!68
|}

When the flawed test is used to compute the significance of this data, the p-value is 0.0085 (see Table 2 of the paper). This p-value is considered statistically significant. However, when the data is analyzed using a standard method (the chi-square test) the p-value is 0.19. This p-value is much larger than the one from the paper and indicates that there is no reason to reject the null hypothesis. The chi-square test p-value for experiment two is small (0.0004). However, experiment three is not statistically significant because its p-value is 0.22.

The chi-square test is a common statistical method.<ref>''Mathematical Statistics with Applications'' by Wackerly, Mendenhall, and Scheaffer, Section 14.4.</ref> It can be implemented in Microsoft Excel. If the numbers from the last four columns of the experiment one data table (excluding the “totals” row) are entered into Excel in rows 1-12 and columns A-D, then the p-value can be computed by entering “=CHITEST(A1:B12,C1:D12)” into any empty cell of the spreadsheet.

==Experiment Three Data==

The experiment three data from Blount et al. is shown in the table below. The expected numbers of mutants under the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate) is also shown.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
!Generation
!Trials
!Mutants
!Statics
!Expected Mutants
!Expected Statics
|-
|0
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|10000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|20000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|25000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|27500
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|29000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30000
|200
|2
|198
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|30500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31000
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|31500
|200
|0
|200
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32000
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|32500
|200
|1
|199
|0.571
|199.429
|-
|-
!Total
!2800
!8
!2792
!8
!2792
|}

==Comparison of p-Values==

The following table compares the p-values reported in Table 2 of Blount et al. to the chi-square p-values for the same experiments. For experiments one and three, the chi-square p-values are much larger than the "mean generation" test p-values from the paper.

{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
|-
|
!Experiment 1
!Experiment 2
!Experiment 3
|-
!p-Value from Paper
|0.0085
|0.0007
|0.082
|-
!Chi-square p-value
|0.19
|0.0004
|0.22
|}

==References==
<references/>
[[Category:Conservapedia Dealings with PNAS and Lenski]]
[[Category:Statistics]]

==See Also==
http://www.sciencenews.org/index/feature/activity/view/id/40006/title/Molecular_Evolution

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/40649/title/FOR_KIDS_Hitting_the_redo_button_on_evolution

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-14T14:38:51Z

FredFerguson: Credibility issue

SJohnson, your assessment, while good in the utilization of the chi-squared test is unfortunately incorrect. The Monte Carlo resampling gives a more accurate p-value than the chi-squared. You may research the literature (i.e. publications in statistical mathematics, many pubs actualy compare Monte Carlo vs Chi Squared) to discover that this method is commonly used in advance statistical work and how it is more accurate than the chi-squared test.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 17:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:It doesn’t make sense to compare the chi-square test, which is a specific statistical hypothesis test, to Monte Carlo methods, which can be used for anything from fluid motion modeling to p-value computations. You can use Monte Carlo methods to compute the p-values of the chi-square test!

:Monte Carlo methods involve the generation of random realizations. Your broad claim the Monte Carlo methods are “more accurate” than the chi-square test is obviously incorrect because the accuracy of Monte Carlo methods always depends on the number of random realizations generated. When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous.

:Which publications compare Monte Carlo to chi-square and show that the former is more accurate? Could you provide specific examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 18:50, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:In furtherance of SJohnson's remarks with respect to rarely occurring events, the use of the basic Monte Carlo method is plainly incorrect for modeling a rarely occurring event, as the Lenski paper did. This has long been pointed out in [[Flaws in Richard Lenski Study]]. I know [[evolutionists]] will never admit a flaw in anything promoting their pet theory, but this (and other) flaws in that paper is undeniable.

:Watch how evolutionists defended obvious errors in the Lenski paper, and then realize why the [[Piltdown Man]] fraud was taught for 40 years without evolutionists admitting it was a hoax.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:55, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::Andy, how exactly is the Monte Carlo method incorrect to use in this case? I have seen it used in publications with much smaller datasets.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:29, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::Able806, I'm interested in looking at the publications you mentioned that use Monte Carlo methods to analyze small data sets. Could you provide some examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:41, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::SJohnson, here are two papers, [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-45RFJ1J-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ad95954654bb97b17e474ce6b469f6e 1] and [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=787963 2]. Most are in chemistry and genetics where you find the observed to be much smaller and have to use the MCM. You can search on the subject as well and find that how Lenski performed the test is the standard for microbiological genetic analysis.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::Those papers have nothing to do with hypothesis testing. One is an archeology paper. To be blunt, it seems like you’re just doing internet searches on “Monte Carlo” to find these links. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::SJohnson, actually they do, did you read the papers? If so you would see how they used the MCM for their data analysis of small data sets, which indeed was hypothesis testing and answers you inquiry about publications that use MCM for small data set analysis. If you wish I can try to track down some actual mathematical publications, however, I am not as familiar with mathematical journals as I am with science/medical journals (not knowing which mathematical journals are acceptable). I am assuming that you have a background in math and possibly access to mathematical journals, therefore if you know the reputable ones I can do the leg work.
::::::I believe the thing that needs to be looked at is there truly a problem with the choice of test and if so what is an alternative. Bayesian might be an option but seems to be difficult to employ for this situation.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 12:36, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Able806, you still seem to miss the point about how inappropriate the Monte Carlo method (as used in the Lenski paper) is for evaluating rarely occurring events. You need to open your mind to be productive. If you simply cling to a view that Lenski (who I don't think has any meaningful education in statistics) must somehow be right, then you're not going to make any progress in understanding the flaws.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:07, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::Andy, you still have not answered what you find inappropriate about his use of the Monte Carlo method? I am a reasonable person and with evidence I do have an open mind. I provided examples last week, with a working model, showing that Monte Carlo is better than the chi-square in this case. I have also shown where the Chi-Square was inappropriate due to the occurrence size as well. So if you have any evidence that Monte Carlo should not be used in the way that Lenski used please let it be shown.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Sjohnson, I believe you just proved my point. In the literature of mean and covariance structure analysis, non-central chi-square distribution is commonly used to describe the behavior of the likelihood ratio statistic under alternative hypothesis; it is widely believed that the non-central chi-square distribution is justified by statistical theory. Actually, when the null hypothesis is not trivially violated, the non-central chi-square distribution cannot describe the LR statistic well even when data are normally distributed and the sample size is large. Monte Carlo results compare the strength of the normal distribution against that of the non-central chi-square distribution. In an association analysis comparing cases and controls with respect to allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus, a potential problem is that the conventional chi-squared test may not be valid for a large, sparse contingency table. Reliance on statistics with known asymptotic distribution is unnecessary, as Monte Carlo simulations can be performed to estimate the significance level of the test statistic.

Here is a [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html link] to a great page the provides an interactive example as to why the Chi Squared test would provide poor results compared to the Monte Carlo in relation to the Lenski data workup.

Something you may have overlooked was that the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly. It is often accepted that is any of the analyzed data falls under 10 for a particular cell of the data set then the Yates correction needs to be applied; unfortunately the Yates correction can over correct thus skewing the p-value. Lenksi seemed to understand this by supporting his Monte Carlo p-value results with the Fisher z-transformation p-value.

I hope this helps.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:27, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:I’m still waiting to hear which literature says that “Monte Carlo resampling” is “more accurate than the chi-squared test”. The page mentioned above [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html] is a discussion of why statisticians “fail to reject the null” rather than “accepting the null” when the p-value is above 0.05 or so. The page says nothing about superiority of Monte Carlo methods. Why were alternate hypothesis distributions mentioned? Only the null hypothesis distribution is used to calculate a p-value. Yates’s correction is for 2x2 contingency tables [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates%27_correction_for_continuity]. It doesn’t apply in this case. Finally, what the heck do “covariance structure analysis” and “allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus” have to do with this problem? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::SJohnson, I am looking for this paper for you, I cited it for one of my past publications dealing with allele frequencies (I believe it came from the Duke Biostatistics group). To answer your question about allele frequencies, that is the issue at hand, more about the genetics than the math, but it is the item being studied. So you stated that Yates can not be used and statistics says the number of occurrences is too small to evaluate using the Chi-Squared test so what would you recommend instead of the Monte-Carlo Method?

:Regarding the "Fisher z-transformation p-value" from the paper, garbage in garbage out. If the p-values were bad to begin with, then why would a combination of them be meaningful? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:49, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::You are assuming that p-values are wrong based on a test that is inappropriate in this case due to data limitations. Did you perform a z-transformation on the chi-squared for the three data groups?--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::You asked about the “Fisher z-transformation p-value”. The z-transformation test and Fisher’s method are actually two different things (see Whitlock's 2005 paper - Ref. 49 in Blount et al.). But no, I haven’t tried either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::There's a large literature on various kinds of Monte Carlo test, a very short summary of which is that they're inevitably more accurate than parametric tests (e.g. F, t, chi-squared, etc) because they don't make assumptions about the distribution of the data under the null hypothesis. See for example ''Introduction to the Bootstrap'' by B. Efron and R. Tibshirani and ''The Jack-knife, the Bootstrap and Other Resampling Plans'', also by Efron. They're certainly applicable to small datasets and their accuracy is really only limited by the number of samples you care to take. E.g. 1000 M-C samples would give you a pretty accurate idea about significance at the alpha<1% level (That book should answer SJohnson's questions of 18:50 on 4/3/09 and 16:38 on 5/3/09 about accuracy and Aschalfly's comment of 17:07 on 5/3/09 about appropriateness of Monte Carlo tests.) [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:53, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Your claim that Monte Carlo methods are “inevitably more accurate” than other tests is obviously wrong because the accuracy of MC methods always depends on the number of realizations used. You should have written <math>\alpha=1\%</math>, not <math>\alpha<1\%</math>. If 1,000 random realizations are generated, the number of realizations above the true <math>\alpha=1\%</math> level is binomial with mean 10 and variance about 10. Thus, the standard deviation of the MC estimate is >0.003. In this example, a Monte Carlo p-value could be off by 30% and still be within a standard deviation. Is that really “pretty accurate”?

::::Using one million MC realizations (as done in the paper) at the <math>\alpha=0.001</math> level means the standard deviation is about 10%. The paper reported a p-value of less than 0.001 (experiment two). It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the experiment two p-value for the flawed test is off because only one million realizations were used. My original statement, “When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous” is correct. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::You're talking about miniscule differences in the accuracy of a test. 0.013 isn't very different from 0.007. In either case, it's very unlikely the experimenter would have obtained that result if the null hypothesis were true. If you're bothered about differences in P-values to the third decimals (which would make you unusual!), just run more MC realisations, that's all. Not really a problem. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:53, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

There’s still confusion about the difference between test statistics and Monte Carlo methods. Before you find a Monte Carlo estimate of a p-value, you need to select a test statistic to reduce the data set to a scalar. I am interested in hearing which test statistic you believe should be used in place of the chi-square test and why. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Quick question for SJohnson: How many degrees of freedom did you choose when calculating the p-value? I'd like to know upon what condition you base that number. Thanks.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:05, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:The degree of freedom for a contingency table is rows minus one times columns minus one. That is, <math> (r-1)(c-1) </math>. Here’s a pretty good tutorial I came across: [http://faculty.uncfsu.edu/dwallace/lesson%2020.pdf]. For the experiments from [http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf], the DOFs are 11, 11, and 13. For experiment one, the chi-square test statistic is
::<math>
X^2
=\sum\limits_i\sum\limits_j
\frac{\left(n_{i,j}-E\left[n_{i,j}\right]\right)^2}
{E\left[n_{i,j}\right]}
</math>
::<math>
=\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(6-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
+\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\ldots+
</math>
::<math>
+\frac{\left(2-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(4-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
</math>
::<math>
\approx
14.82
</math>
:where <math>n_{i,j}</math> is the observed value and <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> is the expected null hypothesis value. So if you have MS Excel, another way to arrive at the p-value of 0.19 is to type “=CHIDIST(14.82,11)” into a cell. Cheers! [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::OK, thanks for the info. From what I'd calculated and looked up in tables, the numbers seemed close to a df=11 for a chi-square of ~14. (Aside: With terms having 17/3 in the denominator in the figures above, were you using the test of independence? I was using Pearson's test for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson%27s_chi-square_test#Test_for_fit_of_a_distribution fit of a distribution] which returns a chi-squared value of 14 and roughly matched the p-values you reported, assuming the df was 11).

::Also, the first sentence of the article reads: "Blount, Borland, and Lenski[1] claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a laboratory experiment. That claim is false." A small correction: There were several claims in the paper. The 'key evolutionary innovation' was acquiring the ability to utilize citrate as a food source. That claim was demonstrated multiple times. The claim, which pertains to this statistics discussion was that the Cit+ phenotype arose in a multi-step process, first requiring a rare, pre-adaptive mutation before additional mutation(s) lead to the subsequent development of citrate utilization.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:46, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::My biology-degreed wife assures me that mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution occurred. What the paper claimed is that evolution (a “key innovation”) occurred in the lab. The key innovation supposedly increased the mutation rate. In the experiments, the observed mutation rate increased after generation 31,000, but not enough to make a statistically significant claim that the rate is not constant. The analysis in the paper was similar to flipping a coin ten times, counting six heads and claiming that the coin must be biased against tails. In reality, there’s nothing surprising about a fair coin producing slightly more of one outcome than the other. Just like there's nothing surprising about there being slightly more mutations in later generations than early generations given the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate). [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::::SJohnson, not to say anything about your wife, but has she had a 400 level molecular genetics course (most general biology degrees do not cover the detail unless they are specialized)? If so, she would have mentioned that if the mutation passes to the offspring and is selectively beneficial to the population then it is a step of evolution as along as the conditions continue through the sharing of the mutation with the population and the environment is such that reduces the growth rate of the non-transformed population. While not all mutations are signs that evolution occurred the mutations that pass to offspring and provide a benefit compared to other offspring are very strong indicators. In the case of this paper the population that evolved the cit+ was able to metabolize a chemical in their environment which allowed for an adaptation advantage compared to the non-transformed colonies.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Let’s go back to the beginning. There appears to be confusion about the difference between test statistics and methods for computing p-values. As is noted at the beginning of the page [http://www.conservapedia.com/Significance_of_E._Coli_Evolution_Experiments], the fundamental problem with the paper is that it used a flawed test statistic, not that it used Monte Carlo methods to find the p-value for that flawed statistic.

Every hypothesis test uses a test statistic to reduce the data to a single number. The p-value for the test statistic can be calculated analytically (as I’ve done for the chi-square test statistic) or by Monte Carlo methods. In the paper, Monte Carlo methods were used to compute the p-value of the “mutation generation” test statistic. The key problem with the analysis from the paper is that it doesn’t work to use a weighted average to test for variations in mutation rate. This is like trying to use the sample variance to test for an increase in the mean in Gaussian-distributed data. A statistic should be selected based on the null and alternate hypothesis distributions of the data. The chi-square test (unlike the weighted average from the paper) is a reasonable choice for data that mutates at a constant rate under the null hypothesis, but mutates at varying rates under the alternate hypothesis.

Able806, you made a good point about the contingency table cell frequencies being relatively low, but were wrong when you said ”the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly”. In the low cell frequency case the chi-square test is still effective, but the null hypothesis distribution of the chi-square statistic starts to look less like the chi-square distribution. Thus, p-values calculated using the chi-square distribution may be a bit off. However, Monte Carlo p-values are always imperfect as well because it's impossible to generate an infinite number of random realizations. There are imperfections in p-values generated by analytic and Monte Carlo methods. However, low cell frequencies does not explain the >20x and >2.5x differences between chi-square p-values and p-values from the paper for experiments one and three. The reason for those huge differences was the use of the flawed test statistic (“mutation generation”) in the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:SJohnson, the chi-squared test is a valuable statistical tool, but the limitations of the test must be acknowledged. The chi-squared test can only produce valid results if the assumptions that underly the test are not violated. As an analogy, Newtonian models of motion fail to produce accurate results as velocities approach the speed of light; under those circumstances one must switch to a theory that accounts for relativistic effects.

:It seems that you have simply dismissed the [http://www.okstate.edu/ag/agedcm4h/academic/aged5980a/5980/newpage28.htm widely-acknowledged] [http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/chisq.htm fact] that the [http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Psych205/chisquareindep.html chi-squared test] is [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236 inappropriate] for use in [http://www.graphpad.com/www/Book/Choose.htm situations] where n in any cell is [http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/chisquar.htm less] less than a [http://books.google.com/books?id=yU15rUiLRI8C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=chi-square+test+assumptions&source=bl&ots=FRY0LwQ3z_&sig=FyIvzJx3hjQ8nWlu2cpmZj3pwXY&hl=en&ei=fm-1SayaNI_MMKX5tO4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#PPA185,M1 threshold] [http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/statguidefiles/gf-dist_ass_viol.html number]. Different authors set different thresholds, but all are well above the numbers seen in your chi-squared analysis - even the most liberal guidelines advise against the chi-squared test when any expected cell frequency is less than one or more than 20% of the table cells are less than 5; others require that expected values in all cells must be more than 5. With smaller amounts of data, the test is insensitive and errs on the side of rejecting the hypothesis. If you attempt your chi-squared statistical analysis with a program that is more sophisticated than MS Excel (as I did), you get an error message indicating that the results are invalid due to low expected cell counts.

:That issue aside, there are other reasons that the chi-squared test is inappropriate here. As the links above point out, the categories tested must be truly independent; one example is that you can't use the chi-squared test to compare age and ability to kick a field goal by testing the same experimental group twice, one year apart; you have to test one group of age A and a different group of age B. In the case of the Blount paper, the categories are not independent. Even if there were adequate numbers to address the low-expected-frequency problem, this would make the chi-squared an invalid test in this case.

:There are other significant problems with the use of the chi-squared test in this circumstance, but they can wait until you address these first major problems.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 12:18, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::Wackerly et al. says in general it’s assumed that the cell frequencies are above five so that the chi-square statistic (under the null) is approximately chi-square distributed (see p. 703). That book does not say chi-square test results are invalid if frequencies are five or less. Your example of a chi-square test warning message (it said "warning" not "error" as you stated) in Minitab [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236] said “approximation probably invalid” referring to the chi-square distribution approximation to the chi-square test statistic’s distribution. Your example did not say “chi-square test invalid”. I agree that when cell frequencies are low, the chi-square test statistic’s distribution starts to deviate from the chi-square distribution. I maintain that this deviation is not enough to explain the >2.5x and >20x differences in the chi-square test p-values and the p-values from the paper.

::As the numerous links in your post proved, the chi-square test is widely-used by statisticians. Can you give examples of statisticians using mean mutation generation as a test statistic? Also, did your software agree with the chi-square test p-values I presented? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Thank you for giving page references for Wackerly; however it seems we have different editions, since page 703 in my copy (5th ed, 1996) does not deal with chi-squared issues at all. My copy does state the following, on page 622: "Although the mathematical proof is beyond the scope of this text, it can be shown that, when n is large [chi-squared] will possess approximately a chi-square probability distribution in repeated sampling." Then, on page 624: "Experience has shown that cell counts [n sub i] should not be too small in order that the chi-square distribution provide an accurate approximation to the distribution of [chi squared]. As a rule of thumb we require that all expected cell counts equal or exceed 5, although Cochran (1952) has noted that this value can be as low as 1 for some situations." Wackerly then goes on, in the problems sections, to describe the use of the chi-squared test as a "violation of good statistical practice" when "some expected counts [are] <5."

:::It seems that you are already aware that the [chi-square] statistic under the null is no longer chi-square distributed for small n; this is precisely why the test should not be used under those conditions. I can claim to be able to accelerate a 1-kg mass to 10 times the speed of light by applying 1 N of force for 95 years by using F=ma and t= (vf-vi)/a. Plugging the numbers into those equations will produce the same result every time, but the answer is illegitimate because those equations are only valid under certain assumptions, which are violated as velocities approach the speed of light. Similarly, having a statistical program calculate a chi-squared value given the Blount data will produce a number result, but since the assumptions of the test are violated the result is not legitimate. Yes, if I put the Blount data in SAS 9.2, I get the same numerical answer as you do, but I also get the following message: "WARNING: >89% of the cells have expected counts less than 5. Chi-square may not be a valid test." You may argue that that's a warning, not an error; that's a semantic distinction. The reason that the program says that it MAY not be valid is that the chi-squared test skews in the direction of being too conservative at low n values; the test has an acceptable rate of false positives but an unacceptably high rate of false negatives. Comparing the results of the Monte Carlo and chi-squared results in this case is like comparing the results of Newtonian and relativistic equations of motion: they can produce very different results from the same input data.

:::Your last paragraph has a major non sequitur in it: yes, many statisticians use the chi-square test. As long as the assumptions of the test are not violated, it is a valuable tool. That has nothing to do with the validity of using mean mutation generation as a test statistic. 'Mean number of werewolf attacks in Mumbai in the week centered on the new moon, by month, from 1654 to 1798' is a valid test statistic. I am quite sure that it has never been used in a peer-reviewed paper before. That does not mean that I can't perform valid statistical tests on that statistic. If, however, the incorrect test is applied, the results of the analysis will be flawed. Papers apply a (relatively small) standard repertoire of valid tests to a (potentially infinite) number of test statistics. The particular test statistic used in a paper may never have been used before and may never be used again; that does not address the validity of the analysis. In Blount's case, the test is the Monte Carlo analysis, which is also "widely-used by statisticians".

:::We still haven't touched on the issue of the categories not being independent, which by itself is sufficient to invalidate the chi-squared technique. I'm new to this site, so I'm unsure as to the etiquette of making changes to the articles of another person - but the article here should at the very least mention that the chi-square test is being used here in a manner that violates its underlying assumptions in at least two fundamental ways, and the results are therefore suspect.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:34, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: It looks to me as though SJohnson has misinterpreted the application of the chi-squared test in quite a fundamental way. His/her analysis of Blount's data are therefore close to meaningless, regardless of whether the test used by Blount is appropriate or not. In my opinion, the entire page should therefore be deleted. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 08:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

::::: "Fred", perhaps you mistakenly think this is Wikipedia, where [[censorship]] and deletion of pages for ideological reasons are common. Not here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:23, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::: Umm... I'm suggesting deletion for mathematical reasons, not ideological reasons. Using an argument filled with mathematical errors to try to support your case only detracts from your credibility. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:38, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

== Misinterpretation of test ==

SJohnson, Your analysis misinterprets the test. You say the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen. They saw a mutation (4 mutations, in fact, in the data set you show) so the null hypothesis (as you state is) is disproved. That's perfectly straightforward.

I don't know what the "mean mutation generation" test is but you're doing when you apply a chi-squared test to this dataset is to test if the mutations are evenly distributed throughout the generations. Your test says they are, so there's no strong evidence to suppose that mutations are likely to occur in one generation rather than another in the series of tests. Blount's test says thay aren't, so it's more likely that the mutation will occur later in the series of tests. I can't tell which test is right without knowing more about the test that Blount used.

But that point (the foregoing paragraph) has no bearing at all on the null hypothesis, as you describe it. The mutation appeared, so that means the hypothesis that the mutation can't happen is disproved. Very simple. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 21:10, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

:I never said that “the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen”. The chi-square test statistic I'm using wouldn’t be defined if the null hypothesis mutation rate was zero because the <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> term in the denominator of the statistic (see above equation) would be zero.

:The test statistic from the paper is the average of the generation numbers of observed mutations. For experiment one this number is
::<math>
\frac{1}{4}\left(30500+31500+2\times32500\right)= 31750.
</math>
:The same number is shown in Table 2 of the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: SJohnson, the way you're calculating the chi-squared statistic implies that you're testing the null hypothesis of a constant mutation rate over time against an alternative hypothesis of a mutation rate which varies over time. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:02, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

User:FredFerguson

2009-03-13T22:21:04Z

FredFerguson: Removing all content from page

User talk:FredFerguson

2009-03-13T14:13:30Z

FredFerguson: reply

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-13T12:18:54Z

FredFerguson: This article should be deleted.

SJohnson, your assessment, while good in the utilization of the chi-squared test is unfortunately incorrect. The Monte Carlo resampling gives a more accurate p-value than the chi-squared. You may research the literature (i.e. publications in statistical mathematics, many pubs actualy compare Monte Carlo vs Chi Squared) to discover that this method is commonly used in advance statistical work and how it is more accurate than the chi-squared test.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 17:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:It doesn’t make sense to compare the chi-square test, which is a specific statistical hypothesis test, to Monte Carlo methods, which can be used for anything from fluid motion modeling to p-value computations. You can use Monte Carlo methods to compute the p-values of the chi-square test!

:Monte Carlo methods involve the generation of random realizations. Your broad claim the Monte Carlo methods are “more accurate” than the chi-square test is obviously incorrect because the accuracy of Monte Carlo methods always depends on the number of random realizations generated. When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous.

:Which publications compare Monte Carlo to chi-square and show that the former is more accurate? Could you provide specific examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 18:50, 4 March 2009 (EST)

:In furtherance of SJohnson's remarks with respect to rarely occurring events, the use of the basic Monte Carlo method is plainly incorrect for modeling a rarely occurring event, as the Lenski paper did. This has long been pointed out in [[Flaws in Richard Lenski Study]]. I know [[evolutionists]] will never admit a flaw in anything promoting their pet theory, but this (and other) flaws in that paper is undeniable.

:Watch how evolutionists defended obvious errors in the Lenski paper, and then realize why the [[Piltdown Man]] fraud was taught for 40 years without evolutionists admitting it was a hoax.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:55, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::Andy, how exactly is the Monte Carlo method incorrect to use in this case? I have seen it used in publications with much smaller datasets.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:29, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::Able806, I'm interested in looking at the publications you mentioned that use Monte Carlo methods to analyze small data sets. Could you provide some examples? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:41, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::SJohnson, here are two papers, [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-45RFJ1J-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ad95954654bb97b17e474ce6b469f6e 1] and [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=787963 2]. Most are in chemistry and genetics where you find the observed to be much smaller and have to use the MCM. You can search on the subject as well and find that how Lenski performed the test is the standard for microbiological genetic analysis.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::Those papers have nothing to do with hypothesis testing. One is an archeology paper. To be blunt, it seems like you’re just doing internet searches on “Monte Carlo” to find these links. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

::::::SJohnson, actually they do, did you read the papers? If so you would see how they used the MCM for their data analysis of small data sets, which indeed was hypothesis testing and answers you inquiry about publications that use MCM for small data set analysis. If you wish I can try to track down some actual mathematical publications, however, I am not as familiar with mathematical journals as I am with science/medical journals (not knowing which mathematical journals are acceptable). I am assuming that you have a background in math and possibly access to mathematical journals, therefore if you know the reputable ones I can do the leg work.
::::::I believe the thing that needs to be looked at is there truly a problem with the choice of test and if so what is an alternative. Bayesian might be an option but seems to be difficult to employ for this situation.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 12:36, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Able806, you still seem to miss the point about how inappropriate the Monte Carlo method (as used in the Lenski paper) is for evaluating rarely occurring events. You need to open your mind to be productive. If you simply cling to a view that Lenski (who I don't think has any meaningful education in statistics) must somehow be right, then you're not going to make any progress in understanding the flaws.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:07, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::::Andy, you still have not answered what you find inappropriate about his use of the Monte Carlo method? I am a reasonable person and with evidence I do have an open mind. I provided examples last week, with a working model, showing that Monte Carlo is better than the chi-square in this case. I have also shown where the Chi-Square was inappropriate due to the occurrence size as well. So if you have any evidence that Monte Carlo should not be used in the way that Lenski used please let it be shown.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Sjohnson, I believe you just proved my point. In the literature of mean and covariance structure analysis, non-central chi-square distribution is commonly used to describe the behavior of the likelihood ratio statistic under alternative hypothesis; it is widely believed that the non-central chi-square distribution is justified by statistical theory. Actually, when the null hypothesis is not trivially violated, the non-central chi-square distribution cannot describe the LR statistic well even when data are normally distributed and the sample size is large. Monte Carlo results compare the strength of the normal distribution against that of the non-central chi-square distribution. In an association analysis comparing cases and controls with respect to allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus, a potential problem is that the conventional chi-squared test may not be valid for a large, sparse contingency table. Reliance on statistics with known asymptotic distribution is unnecessary, as Monte Carlo simulations can be performed to estimate the significance level of the test statistic.

Here is a [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html link] to a great page the provides an interactive example as to why the Chi Squared test would provide poor results compared to the Monte Carlo in relation to the Lenski data workup.

Something you may have overlooked was that the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly. It is often accepted that is any of the analyzed data falls under 10 for a particular cell of the data set then the Yates correction needs to be applied; unfortunately the Yates correction can over correct thus skewing the p-value. Lenksi seemed to understand this by supporting his Monte Carlo p-value results with the Fisher z-transformation p-value.

I hope this helps.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:27, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:I’m still waiting to hear which literature says that “Monte Carlo resampling” is “more accurate than the chi-squared test”. The page mentioned above [http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/chi_beta.html] is a discussion of why statisticians “fail to reject the null” rather than “accepting the null” when the p-value is above 0.05 or so. The page says nothing about superiority of Monte Carlo methods. Why were alternate hypothesis distributions mentioned? Only the null hypothesis distribution is used to calculate a p-value. Yates’s correction is for 2x2 contingency tables [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates%27_correction_for_continuity]. It doesn’t apply in this case. Finally, what the heck do “covariance structure analysis” and “allele frequencies at a highly polymorphic locus” have to do with this problem? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::SJohnson, I am looking for this paper for you, I cited it for one of my past publications dealing with allele frequencies (I believe it came from the Duke Biostatistics group). To answer your question about allele frequencies, that is the issue at hand, more about the genetics than the math, but it is the item being studied. So you stated that Yates can not be used and statistics says the number of occurrences is too small to evaluate using the Chi-Squared test so what would you recommend instead of the Monte-Carlo Method?

:Regarding the "Fisher z-transformation p-value" from the paper, garbage in garbage out. If the p-values were bad to begin with, then why would a combination of them be meaningful? [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:49, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::You are assuming that p-values are wrong based on a test that is inappropriate in this case due to data limitations. Did you perform a z-transformation on the chi-squared for the three data groups?--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::You asked about the “Fisher z-transformation p-value”. The z-transformation test and Fisher’s method are actually two different things (see Whitlock's 2005 paper - Ref. 49 in Blount et al.). But no, I haven’t tried either. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::There's a large literature on various kinds of Monte Carlo test, a very short summary of which is that they're inevitably more accurate than parametric tests (e.g. F, t, chi-squared, etc) because they don't make assumptions about the distribution of the data under the null hypothesis. See for example ''Introduction to the Bootstrap'' by B. Efron and R. Tibshirani and ''The Jack-knife, the Bootstrap and Other Resampling Plans'', also by Efron. They're certainly applicable to small datasets and their accuracy is really only limited by the number of samples you care to take. E.g. 1000 M-C samples would give you a pretty accurate idea about significance at the alpha<1% level (That book should answer SJohnson's questions of 18:50 on 4/3/09 and 16:38 on 5/3/09 about accuracy and Aschalfly's comment of 17:07 on 5/3/09 about appropriateness of Monte Carlo tests.) [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:53, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Your claim that Monte Carlo methods are “inevitably more accurate” than other tests is obviously wrong because the accuracy of MC methods always depends on the number of realizations used. You should have written <math>\alpha=1\%</math>, not <math>\alpha<1\%</math>. If 1,000 random realizations are generated, the number of realizations above the true <math>\alpha=1\%</math> level is binomial with mean 10 and variance about 10. Thus, the standard deviation of the MC estimate is >0.003. In this example, a Monte Carlo p-value could be off by 30% and still be within a standard deviation. Is that really “pretty accurate”?

::::Using one million MC realizations (as done in the paper) at the <math>\alpha=0.001</math> level means the standard deviation is about 10%. The paper reported a p-value of less than 0.001 (experiment two). It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the experiment two p-value for the flawed test is off because only one million realizations were used. My original statement, “When p-values are small, Monte Carlo methods are notoriously inaccurate unless the number of realizations generated is enormous” is correct. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::You're talking about miniscule differences in the accuracy of a test. 0.013 isn't very different from 0.007. In either case, it's very unlikely the experimenter would have obtained that result if the null hypothesis were true. If you're bothered about differences in P-values to the third decimals (which would make you unusual!), just run more MC realisations, that's all. Not really a problem. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:53, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

There’s still confusion about the difference between test statistics and Monte Carlo methods. Before you find a Monte Carlo estimate of a p-value, you need to select a test statistic to reduce the data set to a scalar. I am interested in hearing which test statistic you believe should be used in place of the chi-square test and why. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Quick question for SJohnson: How many degrees of freedom did you choose when calculating the p-value? I'd like to know upon what condition you base that number. Thanks.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 11:05, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:The degree of freedom for a contingency table is rows minus one times columns minus one. That is, <math> (r-1)(c-1) </math>. Here’s a pretty good tutorial I came across: [http://faculty.uncfsu.edu/dwallace/lesson%2020.pdf]. For the experiments from [http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899.full.pdf], the DOFs are 11, 11, and 13. For experiment one, the chi-square test statistic is
::<math>
X^2
=\sum\limits_i\sum\limits_j
\frac{\left(n_{i,j}-E\left[n_{i,j}\right]\right)^2}
{E\left[n_{i,j}\right]}
</math>
::<math>
=\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(6-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
+\frac{\left(0-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\ldots+
</math>
::<math>
+\frac{\left(2-1/3\right)^2}{1/3}
+\frac{\left(4-17/3\right)^2}{17/3}
</math>
::<math>
\approx
14.82
</math>
:where <math>n_{i,j}</math> is the observed value and <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> is the expected null hypothesis value. So if you have MS Excel, another way to arrive at the p-value of 0.19 is to type “=CHIDIST(14.82,11)” into a cell. Cheers! [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

::OK, thanks for the info. From what I'd calculated and looked up in tables, the numbers seemed close to a df=11 for a chi-square of ~14. (Aside: With terms having 17/3 in the denominator in the figures above, were you using the test of independence? I was using Pearson's test for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson%27s_chi-square_test#Test_for_fit_of_a_distribution fit of a distribution] which returns a chi-squared value of 14 and roughly matched the p-values you reported, assuming the df was 11).

::Also, the first sentence of the article reads: "Blount, Borland, and Lenski[1] claimed that a key evolutionary innovation was observed during a laboratory experiment. That claim is false." A small correction: There were several claims in the paper. The 'key evolutionary innovation' was acquiring the ability to utilize citrate as a food source. That claim was demonstrated multiple times. The claim, which pertains to this statistics discussion was that the Cit+ phenotype arose in a multi-step process, first requiring a rare, pre-adaptive mutation before additional mutation(s) lead to the subsequent development of citrate utilization.--[[User:Argon|Argon]] 20:46, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:::My biology-degreed wife assures me that mutation does not necessarily mean that evolution occurred. What the paper claimed is that evolution (a “key innovation”) occurred in the lab. The key innovation supposedly increased the mutation rate. In the experiments, the observed mutation rate increased after generation 31,000, but not enough to make a statistically significant claim that the rate is not constant. The analysis in the paper was similar to flipping a coin ten times, counting six heads and claiming that the coin must be biased against tails. In reality, there’s nothing surprising about a fair coin producing slightly more of one outcome than the other. Just like there's nothing surprising about there being slightly more mutations in later generations than early generations given the null hypothesis (constant mutation rate). [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::::SJohnson, not to say anything about your wife, but has she had a 400 level molecular genetics course (most general biology degrees do not cover the detail unless they are specialized)? If so, she would have mentioned that if the mutation passes to the offspring and is selectively beneficial to the population then it is a step of evolution as along as the conditions continue through the sharing of the mutation with the population and the environment is such that reduces the growth rate of the non-transformed population. While not all mutations are signs that evolution occurred the mutations that pass to offspring and provide a benefit compared to other offspring are very strong indicators. In the case of this paper the population that evolved the cit+ was able to metabolize a chemical in their environment which allowed for an adaptation advantage compared to the non-transformed colonies.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:19, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

----

Let’s go back to the beginning. There appears to be confusion about the difference between test statistics and methods for computing p-values. As is noted at the beginning of the page [http://www.conservapedia.com/Significance_of_E._Coli_Evolution_Experiments], the fundamental problem with the paper is that it used a flawed test statistic, not that it used Monte Carlo methods to find the p-value for that flawed statistic.

Every hypothesis test uses a test statistic to reduce the data to a single number. The p-value for the test statistic can be calculated analytically (as I’ve done for the chi-square test statistic) or by Monte Carlo methods. In the paper, Monte Carlo methods were used to compute the p-value of the “mutation generation” test statistic. The key problem with the analysis from the paper is that it doesn’t work to use a weighted average to test for variations in mutation rate. This is like trying to use the sample variance to test for an increase in the mean in Gaussian-distributed data. A statistic should be selected based on the null and alternate hypothesis distributions of the data. The chi-square test (unlike the weighted average from the paper) is a reasonable choice for data that mutates at a constant rate under the null hypothesis, but mutates at varying rates under the alternate hypothesis.

Able806, you made a good point about the contingency table cell frequencies being relatively low, but were wrong when you said ”the data set is actually too small to use the chi square method correctly”. In the low cell frequency case the chi-square test is still effective, but the null hypothesis distribution of the chi-square statistic starts to look less like the chi-square distribution. Thus, p-values calculated using the chi-square distribution may be a bit off. However, Monte Carlo p-values are always imperfect as well because it's impossible to generate an infinite number of random realizations. There are imperfections in p-values generated by analytic and Monte Carlo methods. However, low cell frequencies does not explain the >20x and >2.5x differences between chi-square p-values and p-values from the paper for experiments one and three. The reason for those huge differences was the use of the flawed test statistic (“mutation generation”) in the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 16:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

:SJohnson, the chi-squared test is a valuable statistical tool, but the limitations of the test must be acknowledged. The chi-squared test can only produce valid results if the assumptions that underly the test are not violated. As an analogy, Newtonian models of motion fail to produce accurate results as velocities approach the speed of light; under those circumstances one must switch to a theory that accounts for relativistic effects.

:It seems that you have simply dismissed the [http://www.okstate.edu/ag/agedcm4h/academic/aged5980a/5980/newpage28.htm widely-acknowledged] [http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/garson/PA765/chisq.htm fact] that the [http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Psych205/chisquareindep.html chi-squared test] is [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236 inappropriate] for use in [http://www.graphpad.com/www/Book/Choose.htm situations] where n in any cell is [http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/chisquar.htm less] less than a [http://books.google.com/books?id=yU15rUiLRI8C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=chi-square+test+assumptions&source=bl&ots=FRY0LwQ3z_&sig=FyIvzJx3hjQ8nWlu2cpmZj3pwXY&hl=en&ei=fm-1SayaNI_MMKX5tO4E&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#PPA185,M1 threshold] [http://www.basic.northwestern.edu/statguidefiles/gf-dist_ass_viol.html number]. Different authors set different thresholds, but all are well above the numbers seen in your chi-squared analysis - even the most liberal guidelines advise against the chi-squared test when any expected cell frequency is less than one or more than 20% of the table cells are less than 5; others require that expected values in all cells must be more than 5. With smaller amounts of data, the test is insensitive and errs on the side of rejecting the hypothesis. If you attempt your chi-squared statistical analysis with a program that is more sophisticated than MS Excel (as I did), you get an error message indicating that the results are invalid due to low expected cell counts.

:That issue aside, there are other reasons that the chi-squared test is inappropriate here. As the links above point out, the categories tested must be truly independent; one example is that you can't use the chi-squared test to compare age and ability to kick a field goal by testing the same experimental group twice, one year apart; you have to test one group of age A and a different group of age B. In the case of the Blount paper, the categories are not independent. Even if there were adequate numbers to address the low-expected-frequency problem, this would make the chi-squared an invalid test in this case.

:There are other significant problems with the use of the chi-squared test in this circumstance, but they can wait until you address these first major problems.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 12:18, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

::Wackerly et al. says in general it’s assumed that the cell frequencies are above five so that the chi-square statistic (under the null) is approximately chi-square distributed (see p. 703). That book does not say chi-square test results are invalid if frequencies are five or less. Your example of a chi-square test warning message (it said "warning" not "error" as you stated) in Minitab [http://www.minitab.com/support/answers/answer.aspx?log=0&id=2236] said “approximation probably invalid” referring to the chi-square distribution approximation to the chi-square test statistic’s distribution. Your example did not say “chi-square test invalid”. I agree that when cell frequencies are low, the chi-square test statistic’s distribution starts to deviate from the chi-square distribution. I maintain that this deviation is not enough to explain the >2.5x and >20x differences in the chi-square test p-values and the p-values from the paper.

::As the numerous links in your post proved, the chi-square test is widely-used by statisticians. Can you give examples of statisticians using mean mutation generation as a test statistic? Also, did your software agree with the chi-square test p-values I presented? Thanks. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:10, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Thank you for giving page references for Wackerly; however it seems we have different editions, since page 703 in my copy (5th ed, 1996) does not deal with chi-squared issues at all. My copy does state the following, on page 622: "Although the mathematical proof is beyond the scope of this text, it can be shown that, when n is large [chi-squared] will possess approximately a chi-square probability distribution in repeated sampling." Then, on page 624: "Experience has shown that cell counts [n sub i] should not be too small in order that the chi-square distribution provide an accurate approximation to the distribution of [chi squared]. As a rule of thumb we require that all expected cell counts equal or exceed 5, although Cochran (1952) has noted that this value can be as low as 1 for some situations." Wackerly then goes on, in the problems sections, to describe the use of the chi-squared test as a "violation of good statistical practice" when "some expected counts [are] <5."

:::It seems that you are already aware that the [chi-square] statistic under the null is no longer chi-square distributed for small n; this is precisely why the test should not be used under those conditions. I can claim to be able to accelerate a 1-kg mass to 10 times the speed of light by applying 1 N of force for 95 years by using F=ma and t= (vf-vi)/a. Plugging the numbers into those equations will produce the same result every time, but the answer is illegitimate because those equations are only valid under certain assumptions, which are violated as velocities approach the speed of light. Similarly, having a statistical program calculate a chi-squared value given the Blount data will produce a number result, but since the assumptions of the test are violated the result is not legitimate. Yes, if I put the Blount data in SAS 9.2, I get the same numerical answer as you do, but I also get the following message: "WARNING: >89% of the cells have expected counts less than 5. Chi-square may not be a valid test." You may argue that that's a warning, not an error; that's a semantic distinction. The reason that the program says that it MAY not be valid is that the chi-squared test skews in the direction of being too conservative at low n values; the test has an acceptable rate of false positives but an unacceptably high rate of false negatives. Comparing the results of the Monte Carlo and chi-squared results in this case is like comparing the results of Newtonian and relativistic equations of motion: they can produce very different results from the same input data.

:::Your last paragraph has a major non sequitur in it: yes, many statisticians use the chi-square test. As long as the assumptions of the test are not violated, it is a valuable tool. That has nothing to do with the validity of using mean mutation generation as a test statistic. 'Mean number of werewolf attacks in Mumbai in the week centered on the new moon, by month, from 1654 to 1798' is a valid test statistic. I am quite sure that it has never been used in a peer-reviewed paper before. That does not mean that I can't perform valid statistical tests on that statistic. If, however, the incorrect test is applied, the results of the analysis will be flawed. Papers apply a (relatively small) standard repertoire of valid tests to a (potentially infinite) number of test statistics. The particular test statistic used in a paper may never have been used before and may never be used again; that does not address the validity of the analysis. In Blount's case, the test is the Monte Carlo analysis, which is also "widely-used by statisticians".

:::We still haven't touched on the issue of the categories not being independent, which by itself is sufficient to invalidate the chi-squared technique. I'm new to this site, so I'm unsure as to the etiquette of making changes to the articles of another person - but the article here should at the very least mention that the chi-square test is being used here in a manner that violates its underlying assumptions in at least two fundamental ways, and the results are therefore suspect.--[[User:ElyM|ElyM]] 17:34, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: It looks to me as though SJohnson has misinterpreted the application of the chi-squared test in quite a fundamental way. His/her analysis of Blount's data are therefore close to meaningless, regardless of whether the test used by Blount is appropriate or not. In my opinion, the entire page should therefore be deleted. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 08:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

== Misinterpretation of test ==

SJohnson, Your analysis misinterprets the test. You say the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen. They saw a mutation (4 mutations, in fact, in the data set you show) so the null hypothesis (as you state is) is disproved. That's perfectly straightforward.

I don't know what the "mean mutation generation" test is but you're doing when you apply a chi-squared test to this dataset is to test if the mutations are evenly distributed throughout the generations. Your test says they are, so there's no strong evidence to suppose that mutations are likely to occur in one generation rather than another in the series of tests. Blount's test says thay aren't, so it's more likely that the mutation will occur later in the series of tests. I can't tell which test is right without knowing more about the test that Blount used.

But that point (the foregoing paragraph) has no bearing at all on the null hypothesis, as you describe it. The mutation appeared, so that means the hypothesis that the mutation can't happen is disproved. Very simple. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 21:10, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

:I never said that “the null hypothesis is that this mutation cannot happen”. The chi-square test statistic I'm using wouldn’t be defined if the null hypothesis mutation rate was zero because the <math>E\left[n_{i,j}\right]</math> term in the denominator of the statistic (see above equation) would be zero.

:The test statistic from the paper is the average of the generation numbers of observed mutations. For experiment one this number is
::<math>
\frac{1}{4}\left(30500+31500+2\times32500\right)= 31750.
</math>
:The same number is shown in Table 2 of the paper. [[User:SJohnson|SJohnson]] 10:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: SJohnson, the way you're calculating the chi-squared statistic implies that you're testing the null hypothesis of a constant mutation rate over time against an alternative hypothesis of a mutation rate which varies over time. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:02, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-12T15:53:32Z

FredFerguson: Accuracy

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-11T20:53:46Z

FredFerguson: Literature on Monte Carlo tests

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T20:39:15Z

FredFerguson: /* Reply to the Above */

==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people were concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== How were the pyramids built? ==

This isn't known for sure but calling it a mystery rather demeans the excellent archaeological research on the subject. [http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html Here's a good, accessible article.] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:00, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Origin of the name Jesus ==

Jesus, pronounced ''Dzheezus'' in English, is the Latin version of his name (pronounced ''Yaysoos''). In turn, that's the Latin spelling of the Greek version of his name (same pronounciation as in Latin). And that's the Hellenised version of the Hebrew name Yehoshua. Which, as it happens, has come into English by a more direct route as Joshua.

The only thing that might seem slightly curious here is the sound shift from ''Y'' to ''J'' at the beginning of the word. This came about because the letters ''I'' and ''J'' were used indiscriminantly by English printers in the late middle ages. By the time the letter J finally entered the English alphabet (early 17th century, I think), Latin words which the Romans spelt with a initial ''I'' (e.g. Iulius Caesar) had come to be spelt with an initial ''J'' in English (hence Julius Caesar). So then they acquired the pronounciation ''J'', as in the very common names James and John.

Again, I don't know why you call this a mystery. This is pretty well known and very easy to look up if you don't know it. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Reply to the Above ==

Fred, thanks for your attempt to solve the mystery, but I've got news for you: your spelling is atrocious and you're absurdly wrong in claiming that literacy in the U.S. is 98% or 99%. It's nowhere near that high.

The liberals who are running [[public schools]], and whom you likely support, are producing millions of illiterates each year. And it's getting worse thanks to how you likely vote. I know, you don't think it's your fault, but someone is electing these people who are perpetrating illiteracy. Fortunately, some parents are waking up to the problem, even if voters aren't.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:44, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

* Spelling: I wrote ''we'' instead of ''were'' at one point in the 'Decline and Fall' section but apart from that, you'll have to tell me what my spelling mistakes are because I don't see them.
* Why does anything I've written make you assume I'm a liberal?
* Your criticism of public schools is a 'straw man' argument. Scotland (where I live) has almost entirely public education and a very high literacy rate. Likewise the Scandinavian countries, Holland, etc. Maybe there's something wrong with public education in the USA but it's too simplistic just to blame any problems on the fact that schools are public ''per se''.
* So you'll have gathered I haven't voted for anyone who's perpetuated illiteracy in the USA.
* Even so, I don't believe literacy in the USA is as low as 1-2%, which is what it was in Ancient Greece.
* Finally, are you always so rude to contributors? I hope you don't behave like that to the schoolkids you tutor. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 07:33, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html The CIA World Factbook concurs] with Mister Ferguson -- 99% literacy (defined as "age 15 and over can read and write"), both male and female, in the United States. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:35, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Don't believe everything the government says, obviously. Illiteracy is rampant in many public schools, and among millions of adults in the U.S.

::::Care to cite a source (like I did)? You merely say "millions of adults" -- well, there's 220 million adults in the United States. If 1% of them cannot read, that's 2.2 million -- in other words, "millions". I'll grant, 99% literacy seems high, especially if you're looking at functional literacy (that is, able to read and write well enough to function in society) versus ability to read and write at all (my five year old niece can read and write a smidge, but certainly not well enough to hold a job!), but you act as if half the population couldn't read anything more than the cutesy graphics on the front page of USA Today. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 10:28, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Fred, I'm surprised you think my reply was "rude", yet seem to have no problem with your own postings. As to spellings, "indiscriminantly"? "Pronounciation"? Please. Also, don't try to fool anyone into thinking you're not a liberal. We are a truthful resource here and we disclose our point of view up-front. Do likewise or find another site to rant on. Wikipedia likes people who hide their point of view. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:50, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: * Whoops! Tripped up on two of the trickier words in the English language. Maybe you'd better take a blue pencil to your own contributions - they're not exactly flawless either.
:::: * "Liberal" - please answer my question. What, exactly, is liberal about what I've written above?
:::: * You're very fond of accusing people of ranting, aren't you? I've seen you say that to other people. But stating the facts and arguing logically isn't ranting. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:07, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Can we focus on the facts, please? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] has brought up some interesting points - let's discuss those, rather than who is the better speller. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:12, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::This is the Fred Ferguson who claimed his spelling was immaculate, and when his errors were pointed out responded with a blase, "Oh, those are the two most difficult words in the English Language, so it doesn't really count", is it? the Fred Ferguson who thinks that ad homs are an adequate replacement for logical debate? I'm sure his points are very valid indeed! [[User:RaviS|RaviS]] 11:07, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::: And your point is...? I don't see the relevance of this to the facts of the discussion. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:12, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::I dare say you don't. However, I have grave doubts about whether your 'fact'-mongering is carried out with the intention of helping to build up Conservapedia. Given the nature of these 'facts', and of your attitude, I suspect quite the opposite. [[User:RaviS|RaviS]] 12:53, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
: LITERACY: I crunched some numbers. According to the CIA World Fact Book, the population of the US is 303,824,640. 20.1% of that is children 0-14 years,w ho are presumably still working on literacy. Leave them out and that gives 303,824,640*0.799 = 242,755,887 adults. Now if 99% of those are literate, how many are not? 242,755,887*0.01 = 2,427,559. Thus even if 99% of Americans are literate, there are still two and a half million American adults who are illiterate. So we can have BOTH millions of illiterate Americans AND 99% literacy. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:19, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::I found some interesting reading on literacy in the US in [http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93275.pdf this report]. I have not read it all (I have to get back to teaching and laundry and bread baking), but I think it will prove worthwhile for those interested in seriously discussing this topic. Note that it provides a more complex picture of literacy than just "literate" vs. "illiterate". I would be interested also in reading something about literacy in Ancient Greece. My layman's impression is that women and slaves were generally not taught to read, which, if accurate, would imply that there was significantly less literacy in Ancient Greece than in modern America, even if Mr Schlafly's perspective on US public schools & literacy is accurate. Has anyone found any information to the contrary? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:34, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Info on literacy in ancient Greece:
::: [http://www.historyliteracy.org/scripts/search_display.php?Article_ID=69 Book review of ''Literacy and Orality in Ancient Greece'' (suggests literacy as we understand it was confined to "a very small elite")]
::: [http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/ancientnovel/leslie.htm An article on ''Literacy and the Ancient Novel'' (suggests "advanced literacy" of 5%)]
::: Doesn't sound comparable to the modern USA! [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:54, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: FredFerguson, have you ever considered that some sources aren't trustworth and that some things (like literacy in Ancient Greece) can't be measured? It's all very well citing a book or article, but then you have to consider where the book writer or article writer got the information from - and in an unfortunately large number of cases it comes from the top of his head. How do they know what literacy levels were in Ancient Greece? As a Greek lay dying, did he say to his son "Now if you remember one thing, remember this, and pass it on to your children....the current literacy rate is 5%. Pass it on to antiquity!"? I doubt it. It is quite likely that the figures quoted in those articles are just plain lies, or taken from other sources which have lied. Just because you read it somewhere doesn't mean it's true. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 12:50, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't think that truth is one of his priorities. [[User:RaviS|RaviS]] 12:54, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Maybe, but it's undeniable that nowadays 'Professor' has become a deceptive title; people are too inclined to trust them and what they say based purely on their title, when in fact they should be subject to greater scrutiny. Too many people see a book or article by a 'Professor' and immediately believe it must be completely true. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 12:59, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Well, RaviS, who's being ''ad hominem'' now?! And ETrundel, simply because something can't be measured directly doesn't mean it can't be estimated. And the fact that one estimate has been made doesn't mean that that estimate can't be improved. But in general, people who've studied a subject seriously generally have a better idea of the actual facts than people who just dismiss out of hand any factual information they find uncomfortable.
::::::Can we move this discussion forward? Does anyone else have some '''information''' to contribute about any of the topics I've raised on this page? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 13:10, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
Is it even sensible to talk about the literacy rate in Ancient Greece as a whole? I believe that (for example) Athens and Sparta had very different societies, so could be expected to have different levels of literacy.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 13:13, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:CPalmer makes a very good point. And to FredFerguson, people are trying to contribute, but you keep arguing and trying to stop them. Also, do you really believe that so-called "Professors" are totally and utterly unfallible? Have you really been brainwashed into thinking that they are totally devoted to the truth and don't have their own agendas to push? Because believe me, many of them do. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:17, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::So books written by academics who are experts in the field don't count as trustworthy anymore? Compilations of population statistics written by a branch of the government aren't somewhat reliable either? Then what sources should we use? WND? Whatever we decide is the truth? And don't give me any of that "open your mind" rubbish - we need adequate sources or we're just making it up.
So can we accept that millions of Americans are illiterate, the literacy rate is 99%, and the literacy rate in Athens was high within a small elite, very low elsewhere? These seem to have been established in the discussion and I don't understand why there's dissent (certainly no contradictory sources have been provided.)[[User:JHanson|JHanson]] 13:18, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::Mr Ferguson's claim above that only men could read may be a good starting point. If we can find a reliable source to verify this, then we can say confidently that the literacy rate couldn't have been more than 50%.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 13:19, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Given that one of the most famous ancient poets, Sappho, was a woman, Mr F may need to think again! [[User:RaviS|RaviS]] 13:23, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::Excellent point! Now we seem to be getting somewhere.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 13:25, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::On the other hand, reliable historical records place the number of Ancient Greek female poets as being minute, one of the reasons Sappho is famous is because she was a female poet at a time when poets were almost exclusively male. An example can be drawn with medieval Europe where, outside of the nobility, literacy was confined almost exclusively to men such as priests and the wealther merchants, but on rare occasion some women were taught literacy skills.--[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 13:33, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::The reliable source you want is ''Literacy and Orality in Ancient Greece'', cited above. Note that most poetry in the ancient world was oral, e.g. the epic poems ascribed to Homer may have been recited by bards for 500 years before they were eventually written down c.700BC. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 13:37, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::I'm not going to respond to the renewed jibes from RaviS and ETrundel. Let's talk about the facts. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 13:37, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::...he said, masterfully sidestepping their legitimate objections. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:46, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Mr. Ferguson has actually provided citations for his arguments. It is reasonable to dispute the accuracy of his citations, but it needs to be something more than "oh, a professor wrote those; people put far too much faith in that title." In other words, provide citations of your own, not hand-waving dismissal. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 14:05, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

It appears to me that there really isn't a consistent answer to the question of the ancient Greeks. Spartan boys were taught to read and write, but they didn't really care for the skills so functionally they may have been illiterate still. The Athenians could definitely read - provided you happened to be male and somewhat well off. Literacy in the US is well higher because reading is a necessary function of socialization within our time. The ancient Greeks loved the arts, but they were more loved for their aesthetics than their functional qualities.

What is contestable about our high literacy rate? Millions still can't read, but that's because our population happens to be rather large. [[User:Jirby|Jirby]] 14:16, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:True enough. Instead of comparing actual literacy rates it might be more appropriate to compare how much access/opportunity people have or have had to learning literacy skills.--[[User:Ieuan|Ieuan]] 14:52, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

TO SUM UP THUS FAR: So, the original mystery was ''How did the level of literacy in Ancient Greece compare with the United States now? '' So far, considering all the evidence offered above, the answer would be something like "While not all American adults are functionally literate, literacy in the US is much more widespread than that of Ancient Greece, and includes a broader range of the population. More people in the US have access to education than did in Ancient Greece; this is particularly true of women and the lower classes." References: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html The CIA World Factbook], [http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93275.pdf this report on literacy in the US], [http://www.historyliteracy.org/scripts/search_display.php?Article_ID=69 Book review of ''Literacy and Orality in Ancient Greece''], [http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/ancientnovel/leslie.htm An article on ''Literacy and the Ancient Novel'']. Does anyone have any other sources that might be significant? Is there an appropriate way to include this in the article? I'm not sure what the etiquette is about editing "mystery" pages. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 15:08, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

[http://www.detlitcoal.org/faq.htm 47% of people in metro Detroit are functionally illiterate]. I doubt the rate of illiteracy was much higher in Athens in ancient Greece.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:11, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
: It sounds as though the rate of functional literacy in ancient Greece was a very low percentage, 5% at most. The rate of literacy in Detroit doesn't sound great but (1) it's still a lot higher than ancient Greece, which was the original - if rather arcane - question and (2) how representative is Detroit of the USA as a whole? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 15:16, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: Your 5% figure is not credible. Socrates had a big following, and all of them could read and write. As someone pointed out, Spartans (not known to be as educated and Athenians) were taught to read and write. Moreover, democracy of Athens would not have originated without widespread literacy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:21, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::So how did American democracy originate if the US was (and is) plagued by illiteracy? Also, Socrates had a following amongst the other elites. As was said, literacy was high amongst the elites, low everywhere else.[[User:JHanson|JHanson]] 15:30, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I suggest you take up the argument about the 5% figure with the authors of the books I've cited. They're the experts on the subject, not me.
:::Athenian voting: only adult men who'd completed military training were eligible to vote - no women, slaves or people of foreign origin. In any case, Athenians gathered to hear arguments orally, not to read newspapers. The same applied in the early democracies in the Viking domains, e.g. Iceland and the Isle of Man; there's no evidence there that any but a tiny proportion of the people there (mainly priests) could read.
:::I agree with JHanson's point about Socrates; yes, he had a following, but it was made up of aristocratic men who had women, slaves and foreigners to do their work for them. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 15:38, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

: <edit conflict> Looking at the Detroit data: Remember that when they refer to "functioning at the lowest literacy level", they do not necessarily mean completely unable to read. The NALS report explains the definitions of literacy level they used in their survey. They group people into four different levels. Those in the lowest level include people who can do basic tasks like identifying a specific piece of information in a news article; those people have basic reading skills. 66% to 75% of the people in this lowest level described themselves as being able to read or write English "well" or "very well". It's important also to look at who is in this lowest group. It includes immigrants, for whom English may not be their native language (25%), people with physical, mental, or health conditions that affect literacy (26%), people age 65 and older who may not have had the educational opportunities offered to today's students (one-third), and those with visual difficulties that affect their ability to read print (19%). So the whole question of literacy is much more complex than simply "can this person read or not", and the 99% number cited in some sources is measuring something quite different than the "functional literacy" rate referred to by the Detroit Literacy Coalition. (Note also that the NALS survey included some mathematics in their definition of literacy.) I am not surprised that a depressed inner city like Detroit includes a large number of people who struggle with literacy. However, we obviously cannot conclude that the Detroit rate is in any way similar to an overall US rate. As an example, the Detroit Literacy Coalition puts the functional illiteracy rate in Michigan at only 18%. This of course implies that there are areas of Michigan where the rate of illiteracy is significantly lower than 18% - perhaps wealthier, suburban areas. 
:As to Ancient Greece - while Socrates may have had a big following, they would have been men who were wealthy enough to have time for philosophy. Women, slaves, and the lower classes would not have been part of his followers. Remember also that in the democracy of Athens, only men who owned land were eligible to vote - again, women, slaves, and the lower classes were not included. I do not know anything about the number of people in each of these groups, except that it is reasonable to assume that women were around 50% of the population. Even if we assume the US's rate of functional literacy is 72% (based on Michigan's), it seems unlikely that Ancient Greece would come anywhere near this, given that most women, slaves, and the lower classes do not seem to have been, generally speaking, functionally literate. Leaving out the women alone gives a literacy rate of 50% - removing the slaves and the lower classes would bring it even lower. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:00, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::Good points there. The book review of ''Literacy and Orality'' makes it clear that most of those in ancient Greece who could read or write at all did so rarely and at a rudimentary level. I just don't see that the modern USA is comparable in any way. The much more important questions are, is literacy in the USA now as high as it should be (probably not) and how can it be raised?
::But on the specific subject of Athenian democracy, (1) I don't think men had to be land-owners in order to vote, e.g. merchants, craftsmen, etc, were eligible and (2) it's been estimated that as few as 1% of the residents of Athens had voting rights (if I can find a reference, I'll add it). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:20, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
:::''I don't think men had to be land-owners in order to vote...'' It's quite possible that I'm wrong on that one. My kids and I have been reading a bit about Ancient Greece for our history studies, but we've been looking mostly at non-fiction books for kids, and I'm guessing some are more accurate than others. I'm far from an expert on history.--[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:32, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Hsmom, the WP page on Athenian democracy seems informative. Solon originally set a property qualification for voting but by the time of the "Golden Age" (Pericles to Aristotle, roughly), that had fallen into disuse. In peace-time, as much as 10% of the population may have been adult male Athenians who had completed military service, but that fell dramatically when Athens was at war, as it so often was (I think the 1% figure that I recalled had something to do with the time of the Peloponnesian[*] War). [* I bet I haven't spelt that right!] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 16:39, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

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==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people were concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== How were the pyramids built? ==

This isn't known for sure but calling it a mystery rather demeans the excellent archaeological research on the subject. [http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html Here's a good, accessible article.] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:00, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Origin of the name Jesus ==

Jesus, pronounced ''Dzheezus'' in English, is the Latin version of his name (pronounced ''Yaysoos''). In turn, that's the Latin spelling of the Greek version of his name (same pronounciation as in Latin). And that's the Hellenised version of the Hebrew name Yehoshua. Which, as it happens, has come into English by a more direct route as Joshua.

The only thing that might seem slightly curious here is the sound shift from ''Y'' to ''J'' at the beginning of the word. This came about because the letters ''I'' and ''J'' were used indiscriminantly by English printers in the late middle ages. By the time the letter J finally entered the English alphabet (early 17th century, I think), Latin words which the Romans spelt with a initial ''I'' (e.g. Iulius Caesar) had come to be spelt with an initial ''J'' in English (hence Julius Caesar). So then they acquired the pronounciation ''J'', as in the very common names James and John.

Again, I don't know why you call this a mystery. This is pretty well known and very easy to look up if you don't know it. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Reply to the Above ==

Fred, thanks for your attempt to solve the mystery, but I've got news for you: your spelling is atrocious and you're absurdly wrong in claiming that literacy in the U.S. is 98% or 99%. It's nowhere near that high.

The liberals who are running [[public schools]], and whom you likely support, are producing millions of illiterates each year. And it's getting worse thanks to how you likely vote. I know, you don't think it's your fault, but someone is electing these people who are perpetrating illiteracy. Fortunately, some parents are waking up to the problem, even if voters aren't.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:44, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

* Spelling: I wrote ''we'' instead of ''were'' at one point in the 'Decline and Fall' section but apart from that, you'll have to tell me what my spelling mistakes are because I don't see them.
* Why does anything I've written make you assume I'm a liberal?
* Your criticism of public schools is a 'straw man' argument. Scotland (where I live) has almost entirely public education and a very high literacy rate. Likewise the Scandinavian countries, Holland, etc. Maybe there's something wrong with public education in the USA but it's too simplistic just to blame any problems on the fact that schools are public ''per se''.
* So you'll have gathered I haven't voted for anyone who's perpetuated illiteracy in the USA.
* Even so, I don't believe literacy in the USA is as low as 1-2%, which is what it was in Ancient Greece.
* Finally, are you always so rude to contributors? I hope you don't behave like that to the schoolkids you tutor. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 07:33, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html The CIA World Factbook concurs] with Mister Ferguson -- 99% literacy (defined as "age 15 and over can read and write"), both male and female, in the United States. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:35, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Don't believe everything the government says, obviously. Illiteracy is rampant in many public schools, and among millions of adults in the U.S.

::::Care to cite a source (like I did)? You merely say "millions of adults" -- well, there's 220 million adults in the United States. If 1% of them cannot read, that's 2.2 million -- in other words, "millions". I'll grant, 99% literacy seems high, especially if you're looking at functional literacy (that is, able to read and write well enough to function in society) versus ability to read and write at all (my five year old niece can read and write a smidge, but certainly not well enough to hold a job!), but you act as if half the population couldn't read anything more than the cutesy graphics on the front page of USA Today. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 10:28, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Fred, I'm surprised you think my reply was "rude", yet seem to have no problem with your own postings. As to spellings, "indiscriminantly"? "Pronounciation"? Please. Also, don't try to fool anyone into thinking you're not a liberal. We are a truthful resource here and we disclose our point of view up-front. Do likewise or find another site to rant on. Wikipedia likes people who hide their point of view. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:50, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: * Whoops! Tripped up on two of the trickier words in the English language. Maybe you'd better take a blue pencil to your own contributions - they're not exactly flawless either.
:::: * "Liberal" - please answer my question. What, exactly, is liberal about what I've written above?
:::: * You're very fond of accusing people of ranting, aren't you? I've seen you say that to other people. But stating the facts and arguing logically isn't ranting. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:07, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Can we focus on the facts, please? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] has brought up some interesting points - let's discuss those, rather than who is the better speller. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:12, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::This is the Fred Ferguson who claimed his spelling was immaculate, and when his errors were pointed out responded with a blase, "Oh, those are the two most difficult words in the English Language, so it doesn't really count", is it? the Fred Ferguson who thinks that ad homs are an adequate replacement for logical debate? I'm sure his points are very valid indeed! [[User:RaviS|RaviS]] 11:07, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
::: And your point is...? I don't see the relevance of this to the facts of the discussion. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 11:12, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
: LITERACY: I crunched some numbers. According to the CIA World Fact Book, the population of the US is 303,824,640. 20.1% of that is children 0-14 years,w ho are presumably still working on literacy. Leave them out and that gives 303,824,640*0.799 = 242,755,887 adults. Now if 99% of those are literate, how many are not? 242,755,887*0.01 = 2,427,559. Thus even if 99% of Americans are literate, there are still two and a half million American adults who are illiterate. So we can have BOTH millions of illiterate Americans AND 99% literacy. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:19, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::I found some interesting reading on literacy in the US in [http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93275.pdf this report]. I have not read it all (I have to get back to teaching and laundry and bread baking), but I think it will prove worthwhile for those interested in seriously discussing this topic. Note that it provides a more complex picture of literacy than just "literate" vs. "illiterate". I would be interested also in reading something about literacy in Ancient Greece. My layman's impression is that women and slaves were generally not taught to read, which, if accurate, would imply that there was significantly less literacy in Ancient Greece than in modern America, even if Mr Schlafly's perspective on US public schools & literacy is accurate. Has anyone found any information to the contrary? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:34, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Info on literacy in ancient Greece:
::: [http://www.historyliteracy.org/scripts/search_display.php?Article_ID=69 Book review of ''Literacy and Orality in Ancient Greece'' (suggests literacy as we understand it was confined to "a very small elite")]
::: [http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/ancientnovel/leslie.htm An article on ''Literacy and the Ancient Novel'' (suggests "advanced literacy" of 5%)]
::: Doesn't sound comparable to the modern USA! [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:54, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-09T15:02:56Z

FredFerguson: /* Misinterpretation of test */

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T14:54:42Z

FredFerguson: /* Reply to the Above */ Literacy in ancient Greece.

==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people were concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== How were the pyramids built? ==

This isn't known for sure but calling it a mystery rather demeans the excellent archaeological research on the subject. [http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html Here's a good, accessible article.] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:00, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Origin of the name Jesus ==

Jesus, pronounced ''Dzheezus'' in English, is the Latin version of his name (pronounced ''Yaysoos''). In turn, that's the Latin spelling of the Greek version of his name (same pronounciation as in Latin). And that's the Hellenised version of the Hebrew name Yehoshua. Which, as it happens, has come into English by a more direct route as Joshua.

The only thing that might seem slightly curious here is the sound shift from ''Y'' to ''J'' at the beginning of the word. This came about because the letters ''I'' and ''J'' were used indiscriminantly by English printers in the late middle ages. By the time the letter J finally entered the English alphabet (early 17th century, I think), Latin words which the Romans spelt with a initial ''I'' (e.g. Iulius Caesar) had come to be spelt with an initial ''J'' in English (hence Julius Caesar). So then they acquired the pronounciation ''J'', as in the very common names James and John.

Again, I don't know why you call this a mystery. This is pretty well known and very easy to look up if you don't know it. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Reply to the Above ==

Fred, thanks for your attempt to solve the mystery, but I've got news for you: your spelling is atrocious and you're absurdly wrong in claiming that literacy in the U.S. is 98% or 99%. It's nowhere near that high.

The liberals who are running [[public schools]], and whom you likely support, are producing millions of illiterates each year. And it's getting worse thanks to how you likely vote. I know, you don't think it's your fault, but someone is electing these people who are perpetrating illiteracy. Fortunately, some parents are waking up to the problem, even if voters aren't.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:44, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

* Spelling: I wrote ''we'' instead of ''were'' at one point in the 'Decline and Fall' section but apart from that, you'll have to tell me what my spelling mistakes are because I don't see them.
* Why does anything I've written make you assume I'm a liberal?
* Your criticism of public schools is a 'straw man' argument. Scotland (where I live) has almost entirely public education and a very high literacy rate. Likewise the Scandinavian countries, Holland, etc. Maybe there's something wrong with public education in the USA but it's too simplistic just to blame any problems on the fact that schools are public ''per se''.
* So you'll have gathered I haven't voted for anyone who's perpetuated illiteracy in the USA.
* Even so, I don't believe literacy in the USA is as low as 1-2%, which is what it was in Ancient Greece.
* Finally, are you always so rude to contributors? I hope you don't behave like that to the schoolkids you tutor. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 07:33, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html The CIA World Factbook concurs] with Mister Ferguson -- 99% literacy (defined as "age 15 and over can read and write"), both male and female, in the United States. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:35, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Don't believe everything the government says, obviously. Illiteracy is rampant in many public schools, and among millions of adults in the U.S.

::::Care to cite a source (like I did)? You merely say "millions of adults" -- well, there's 220 million adults in the United States. If 1% of them cannot read, that's 2.2 million -- in other words, "millions". I'll grant, 99% literacy seems high, especially if you're looking at functional literacy (that is, able to read and write well enough to function in society) versus ability to read and write at all (my five year old niece can read and write a smidge, but certainly not well enough to hold a job!), but you act as if half the population couldn't read anything more than the cutesy graphics on the front page of USA Today. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 10:28, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Fred, I'm surprised you think my reply was "rude", yet seem to have no problem with your own postings. As to spellings, "indiscriminantly"? "Pronounciation"? Please. Also, don't try to fool anyone into thinking you're not a liberal. We are a truthful resource here and we disclose our point of view up-front. Do likewise or find another site to rant on. Wikipedia likes people who hide their point of view. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:50, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: * Whoops! Tripped up on two of the trickier words in the English language. Maybe you'd better take a blue pencil to your own contributions - they're not exactly flawless either.
:::: * "Liberal" - please answer my question. What, exactly, is liberal about what I've written above?
:::: * You're very fond of accusing people of ranting, aren't you? I've seen you say that to other people. But stating the facts and arguing logically isn't ranting. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:07, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Can we focus on the facts, please? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] has brought up some interesting points - let's discuss those, rather than who is the better speller. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:12, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
: LITERACY: I crunched some numbers. According to the CIA World Fact Book, the population of the US is 303,824,640. 20.1% of that is children 0-14 years,w ho are presumably still working on literacy. Leave them out and that gives 303,824,640*0.799 = 242,755,887 adults. Now if 99% of those are literate, how many are not? 242,755,887*0.01 = 2,427,559. Thus even if 99% of Americans are literate, there are still two and a half million American adults who are illiterate. So we can have BOTH millions of illiterate Americans AND 99% literacy. --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:19, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::I found some interesting reading on literacy in the US in [http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93275.pdf this report]. I have not read it all (I have to get back to teaching and laundry and bread baking), but I think it will prove worthwhile for those interested in seriously discussing this topic. Note that it provides a more complex picture of literacy than just "literate" vs. "illiterate". I would be interested also in reading something about literacy in Ancient Greece. My layman's impression is that women and slaves were generally not taught to read, which, if accurate, would imply that there was significantly less literacy in Ancient Greece than in modern America, even if Mr Schlafly's perspective on US public schools & literacy is accurate. Has anyone found any information to the contrary? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 10:34, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Info on literacy in ancient Greece:
::: [http://www.historyliteracy.org/scripts/search_display.php?Article_ID=69 Book review of ''Literacy and Orality in Ancient Greece'' (suggests literacy as we understand it was confined to "a very small elite")]
::: [http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/ancientnovel/leslie.htm An article on ''Literacy and the Ancient Novel'' (suggests "advanced literacy" of 5%)]
::: Doesn't sound comparable to the modern USA! [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:54, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T14:07:41Z

FredFerguson: /* Reply to the Above */

==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people were concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== How were the pyramids built? ==

This isn't known for sure but calling it a mystery rather demeans the excellent archaeological research on the subject. [http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html Here's a good, accessible article.] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:00, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Origin of the name Jesus ==

Jesus, pronounced ''Dzheezus'' in English, is the Latin version of his name (pronounced ''Yaysoos''). In turn, that's the Latin spelling of the Greek version of his name (same pronounciation as in Latin). And that's the Hellenised version of the Hebrew name Yehoshua. Which, as it happens, has come into English by a more direct route as Joshua.

The only thing that might seem slightly curious here is the sound shift from ''Y'' to ''J'' at the beginning of the word. This came about because the letters ''I'' and ''J'' were used indiscriminantly by English printers in the late middle ages. By the time the letter J finally entered the English alphabet (early 17th century, I think), Latin words which the Romans spelt with a initial ''I'' (e.g. Iulius Caesar) had come to be spelt with an initial ''J'' in English (hence Julius Caesar). So then they acquired the pronounciation ''J'', as in the very common names James and John.

Again, I don't know why you call this a mystery. This is pretty well known and very easy to look up if you don't know it. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Reply to the Above ==

Fred, thanks for your attempt to solve the mystery, but I've got news for you: your spelling is atrocious and you're absurdly wrong in claiming that literacy in the U.S. is 98% or 99%. It's nowhere near that high.

The liberals who are running [[public schools]], and whom you likely support, are producing millions of illiterates each year. And it's getting worse thanks to how you likely vote. I know, you don't think it's your fault, but someone is electing these people who are perpetrating illiteracy. Fortunately, some parents are waking up to the problem, even if voters aren't.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:44, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

* Spelling: I wrote ''we'' instead of ''were'' at one point in the 'Decline and Fall' section but apart from that, you'll have to tell me what my spelling mistakes are because I don't see them.
* Why does anything I've written make you assume I'm a liberal?
* Your criticism of public schools is a 'straw man' argument. Scotland (where I live) has almost entirely public education and a very high literacy rate. Likewise the Scandinavian countries, Holland, etc. Maybe there's something wrong with public education in the USA but it's too simplistic just to blame any problems on the fact that schools are public ''per se''.
* So you'll have gathered I haven't voted for anyone who's perpetuated illiteracy in the USA.
* Even so, I don't believe literacy in the USA is as low as 1-2%, which is what it was in Ancient Greece.
* Finally, are you always so rude to contributors? I hope you don't behave like that to the schoolkids you tutor. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 07:33, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html The CIA World Factbook concurs] with Mister Ferguson -- 99% literacy (defined as "age 15 and over can read and write"), both male and female, in the United States. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:35, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

::: Don't believe everything the government says, obviously. Illiteracy is rampant in many public schools, and among millions of adults in the U.S.

::: Fred, I'm surprised you think my reply was "rude", yet seem to have no problem with your own postings. As to spellings, "indiscriminantly"? "Pronounciation"? Please. Also, don't try to fool anyone into thinking you're not a liberal. We are a truthful resource here and we disclose our point of view up-front. Do likewise or find another site to rant on. Wikipedia likes people who hide their point of view. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:50, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

:::: * Whoops! Tripped up on two of the trickier words in the English language. Maybe you'd better take a blue pencil to your own contributions - they're not exactly flawless either.
:::: * "Liberal" - please answer my question. What, exactly, is liberal about what I've written above?
:::: * You're very fond of accusing people of ranting, aren't you? I've seen you say that to other people. But stating the facts and arguing logically isn't ranting. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 10:07, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T11:33:55Z

FredFerguson: /* Reply to the Above */ Response

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T11:26:44Z

FredFerguson: /* Decline and fall of the Roman Empire */ we > were

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-09T01:13:34Z

FredFerguson: /* Misinterpretation of test */ Tidying up (typing too fast...)

Talk:Significance of E. Coli Evolution Experiments

2009-03-09T01:10:24Z

FredFerguson: /* Misinterpretation of test */ new section

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T00:11:55Z

FredFerguson: /* Origin of the name Jesus */ new section

==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people we concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== How were the pyramids built? ==

This isn't known for sure but calling it a mystery rather demeans the excellent archaeological research on the subject. [http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html Here's a good, accessible article.] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:00, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Origin of the name Jesus ==

Jesus, pronounced ''Dzheezus'' in English, is the Latin version of his name (pronounced ''Yaysoos''). In turn, that's the Latin spelling of the Greek version of his name (same pronounciation as in Latin). And that's the Hellenised version of the Hebrew name Yehoshua. Which, as it happens, has come into English by a more direct route as Joshua.

The only thing that might seem slightly curious here is the sound shift from ''Y'' to ''J'' at the beginning of the word. This came about because the letters ''I'' and ''J'' were used indiscriminantly by English printers in the late middle ages. By the time the letter J finally entered the English alphabet (early 17th century, I think), Latin words which the Romans spelt with a initial ''I'' (e.g. Iulius Caesar) had come to be spelt with an initial ''J'' in English (hence Julius Caesar). So then they acquired the pronounciation ''J'', as in the very common names James and John.

Again, I don't know why you call this a mystery. This is pretty well known and very easy to look up if you don't know it. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-09T00:00:51Z

FredFerguson: /* How were the pyramids built? */ new section

==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people we concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== How were the pyramids built? ==

This isn't known for sure but calling it a mystery rather demeans the excellent archaeological research on the subject. [http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html Here's a good, accessible article.] [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:00, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-08T23:52:23Z

FredFerguson: /* Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? */ new section

==Dark Ages==

I have to ask: does this really qualify as a "mystery?" Most people who have actually taken the time to study European history, I would suggest, would say that there's a clear and simple answer: "No, the so-called "Dark Ages" weren't really so backwards." Significant advances were made during the period generally termed the "Dark Ages" in many fields: music, agriculture, metallurgy, and philosophy spring to mind immediately. Historians today generally avoid using the term "Dark Ages" for precisely that reason.

Should it really be termed a "mystery" just because some people continue to hold misconceptions about it? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
: Yes, it's not a mystery at all. Renaissance humanists hated the "dark ages" with a passion. Now we know just how much science and culture were developed during those centuries. Not so much a mystery as a myth, really (liberals love to claim early Christian Europe was fruitless) [[User:RodWeathers|- Rod Weathers]] 14:14, 28 December 2008 (EST)

::Perhaps a better question would be "Why are the advances of the early Middle Ages frequently overlooked or dismissed?" --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 14:19, 28 December 2008 (EST)

:::My question is: ''What specific non-warfare scientific/technological advances were made in Christian Western Europe between the fall of Rome and AD1000?'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::There were some important scholars, notably Isidore of Seville (6th century Spain), Bede (7th century England) and Alcuin of York (8th century England). But, with these possible exceptions, European scholarship is overshadowed by India, China and the Muslim Caliphate in this period. The first European renaissance started when Christian scholars visited Spain and Sicily to benefit from Arab learning.

::::However, the so-called Dark Ages weren't nearly as obscure are the name suggests. There was significant trade with Byzantium and the Caliphate and the most important monasteries had access to classical Latin texts. There were major building projects, especially of monasteries, particularly from the late 8th century onwards. The standard of craftsmanship was exceptional - you couldn't say it declined at all during the "Dark Ages". Witness the jewelry at Sutton Hoo or the illustrated manuscripts produced by Anglo-Saxon scriptoria. The Anglo-Saxon kings, notably Alfred, Athelstan and Edgar, laid the basis of English government which was formalised by the coronation oath of Henry I.

::::Bear in mind that the setback to civilisation was only in Western Europe. Culture flourished in the Eastern Empire, also in the Arab Caliphate, while the Tang and Song Dynasties represent in many ways the peak of Chinese culture. Also, much of the foundations of mathematics were discovered in India in this period. Universities were first founded in Arab lands (Fez was the first, I think) in the 10th century, before spreading to Spain and thence to Christian Europe. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::The operative words in my question above were ''scientific/technological''. I know of Bede and Alcuin and have had occasion to look into Isadore in the last few months. Yes they were scholars, and they shine like beacons. I am also aware of the "Benedictine reformation" and the wonders done by St. Dunstan. But these are beacons in the gloom. Was it Dunstan who had the Benedictine rules translated into "English" because Latin had been largely forgotten? And I love the jewellery of that age. I have had occasion to read much of the [[Anglo-Saxon Chronicle]] a number of times last year...and it really was a dark and dangerous age. Only Christianity kept western society together (and I know of no historian that denies the good the Church did in those times) but as for science and technological advances, really there was very little, if any at all.
In another context the age is also called ''the great interruption''. Cheers [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::::Science and technology: almost nothing, I think. The great advances in science during the so-called Dark Ages were in India and the Muslim countries. The West only started to turn the corner in terms of scientific learning when Gerbert (Pope Sylvester II) visited the Muslim universities in Spain, c.1000 (see R.W. Southern, ''The Making of the Middle Ages''). [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 17:59, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:Yes! Now all we have to do is get people to agree to it on [[Essay:Liberal Denials about History]] item (10) under "Specific truths that history books deny".[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 18:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Humor==
Perhaps this entry could be clarified: is there a particular form of humor that the author had in mind? There are examples of jokes, riddles, puns, comic figurines/images, anthropoligical notes of humorous conversations, etc. from both pre-Christian times and from post-Christian 'first contacts' with cultures that had had no previous exposure to Christianity.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:37, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:Brossa: Can you provide some? --[[User:AbnerY|AbnerY]] 21:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)

:I'd like to see Brossa's alleged examples also.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:49, 8 February 2009 (EST)

::How about Greek and Roman comedy? that way predated Christianity. Andy, what kind of claim are you making here? on what basis would you allege that humor does not predate Christianity? it seems pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see some evidence. --[[User:DaveClark|DaveClark]]

::: You misunderstand what a Greek "comedy" was. It was not a humorous performance as meant by the term today (after the onset of Christianity).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: Yes. It was. The intention was to make people laugh. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean by "humor"? Also.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7536918.stm [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 09:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Aschlafly is right in saying that the term "comedy" did not mean exactly what it does today, but KimSell is right that the works of playwrights such as Aristophanes certainly included humorous elements such as wordplay, farce and grotesque exaggeration (often surprisingly coarse by our standards). I'd also cite the episode where the children mocked Elisha in 2 Kings 2:23-24 as an example, albeit fairly base, of pre-Christian humor.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: As a side-note, in the past there have been bitter disputes where people have taken the polar opposite position to Mr Schlafly, ie that all humor is un-Christian. This is touched on in Umberto Eco's ''The Name of the Rose'', which I recommend.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: The pre-Christian examples don't withstand scrutiny. Mockery or crude comments are not quality humor, and may not be humor at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::::::Sorry Mr. Schlafly. While you may not consider crude comments humorous, it is still defined as humor. you are yet to back up the claim you're making with any specific evidense. even if greek comedy didn't qualify as humor (and it does) there would still be no evidence that the advent of christianity brought the advent of humor.

::::This will be easier if you define precisely what ''you'' mean by 'humor' or 'comedy' so that we can determine if in fact it did or did not exist before Christianity. As the essay stands now, it implies that there was no ''humor'' before Christianity, not that, say, stand-up comedy as practiced in the United States today did not exist in the ancient world. The Greek comedy tradition was well-established by the sixth century BC and contains aspects of sexual farce, parody of 'serious' literary styles, and mockery of specific political and public figures. Comic performers wore characteristic costumes that included fat suits, huge genitalia, and grotesque masks that are still in use in modern comic performances. Greek vases depict these comic characters engaged in antics; I recall in particular a vase depicting two grotesque dwarves helping a third dwarf up a ladder or ramp - Three Stooges level humor.
::::Isaac in the Bible got his name from the laughter of Abraham and Sarah; does this not indicate a sense of humor? Elijah mocks the prophets of Baal, including the suggestion that Baal cannot hear his priests because he is on the toilet.
::::Egyptian papyri show exaggerated caricatures of dishevelled older men engaged in sexual relations with young women, including humorous captions (in heiroglyphics!) detailing the women's commentary on the situation. Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity. A foreign queen is depicted as being so fat that she stands next to an ass with the caption 'the ass needed to carry the queen'.
::::Sumerian scatological humor is recorded (in cuneiform) on a tablet dated to 1900 BC.
::::Many Native American groups had oral traditions that include the 'Trickster' figure, who gets involved in humorous scrapes and mocks authority figures. Many of these stories also include punning wordplay and practical jokes; another dimension of humor.
::::Nineteenth century Australian ethnographers, coming into first contact with an isolated Aboriginal group, noted that the Aboriginals told stories among themselves and laughed during an otherwise stressful time - in this case, a terrible thunderstorm.
::::I'm sure that others could contribute examples from Sanskrit or Asian cultures.
::::So scatological humor, sexual humor, puns, riddles, slapstick, political satire, parody of 'serious' art forms, practical jokes, and others are all documented in pre-Christian or non-Christian cultures.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 09:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: To one with an open mind, your vulgar "examples" tend to reinforce the basic observation: (real) humor was lacking before Christianity. Crudeness or vulgarity or mockery is not true humor, and Greek "comedies" were not attempts at humor in today's sense.

::::: If you had evidence of writings about humor itself, or books of humor, or truly comedic performances, or anything remotely similar to quality humor today, then that could help your argument. But the above examples, if they are the best you have, simply underscore the insight in this essay.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: It would have been simpler for you to have simply started with the statement that no 'true humor' existed before Christianity, so that we would have known what sort of Scotsman we were dealing with in the first place. At any rate, the Japanese had [http://www.conservapedia.com/Noh_theater#What_is_Ky.C5.8Dgen.3F mature forms of theater] designed to "draw rich laughter from the audience" before Christianity was introduced to Japan.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 11:02, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::Have you ever watched an ancient Greek comedy? Because I have, and in parts, they are downright hilarious. As people keep saying, you have not explained what you mean by "humor" and so, this conversation would seem to be pointless. However, Aristotle speaks of the history of Greek comedy, including the fact that it was funny! [[User:KimSell|KimSell]] 10:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::: May I ask what is the earliest example of true humor that you know of? While I respect the viewpoint that the above examples are not real humor, I don't know of any new form that emerged very soon after the establishment of Christianity.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::If you are so adament about so called "genuine humor" mr. Schlafly, then please define it for us.

::::::::Clearly there is a distinction to be made between things that are funny and things that are 'humor'. If it was intended to make people laugh, it qualifies as humor, whether it was funny or not. No doubt plenty of movies made by the Zuckers and the Farrelly brothers aren't funny, but they're still comedies. I don't find Groucho Marx very funny but he still counts as a comedian. What you seem to mean is that you don't find pre-Christian humor amusing. That's fine but it hardly counts as one of the 'greatest mysteries of world history'.[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 12:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: I agree with Mr Achalfly in that for something to be humorous it needs to have a certain amount of taste and refinement. For example, the article mentions a man getting hit in the crotch by a ball. While some people may find this funny, I daresay there are very few people in the world whi would call this humor. The article also mentions the Jackass movie; again, while a few people may find it amusing, I doubt very many people would define it as humorous. What do these two examples have in common? A lack of taste and refinement. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 13:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::Surely someone with an open mind would find such taste and refinement in ancient Greco-Roman political satire (e.g. from Aristophanes). Humor undeniably existed before Christianity. Let's just put this behind us as a misunderstanding (or even a disagreement over personal preference). [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)

For the elucidation of all: "''The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature''" describes Aristophanes as an "Athenian comic poet". Eleven of his plays survive. I know of at least one that has been performed in modern times - "''The Wasps''". I have a CD of it (2 CD set actually) Originally, it was produced in 422 B.C. and is a satirical comedy, poking fun at the Athenian jury system of the time and the state of contemporary politics. It is a comedy of manners, with elements of parody, occasional crudity and slapstick. Sounds like the Restoration writers to me. Or Voltaire. Even Shakespeare indulged in a bit of crudity at times. Modern productions, of course, update some of the scenes.

Aristophanes, who is still read and studied, is only one of many writers of comedies in those times. There was an annual competition for comedy. (''The Wasps'' came 2nd in its year.) Aristophanes' style has been copied by classically trained playwrights since...the Frenchman, Racine, for instance.

The above Oxford Companion devotes over 3 tightly printed pages to ancient Greek and Roman comedy, as well as many mentioned writers getting their own articles. Perhaps we today would not find as funny, but scenes in Shakespeare that had them rolling around in the aisles in 1600 do not quite have that power today. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:remove indent) ETundel, you are confusing "I find it funny" with "it is intended as Humor." I don't find Jackass funny myself, but it is still considered humour. It may be very low comedy, which it is and not everyone will like it, but the fact remains that something does not cease to be "humour" just because X amount of people don't find it funny. [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 16:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The above discussion is interesting, and I'd like to learn more about "The Wasps." But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary: the "ludicrous" or (more importantly) the "absurdly incongruous."

There are dim-witted people who are amused by compulsive profanity or, as on this site, by mindless vandalism. Parody and sarcasm is also immensely entertaining to the easily amused. But this is not "humor" as defined by the dictionary, and I still haven't seen any compelling examples of pre-Christian humor. A performance like "Trading Places" would qualify, but it didn't exist.

It's interesting how strenuously some people object to the proposition that humor did not predate Christianity. Surely your minds are not so closed as to think the proposition to be automatically impossible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Here you go Andy, here is the full text of "The Wasps" for you to read at your leisure here[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/wasps.html]. You can judge for yourself if you find it humorous. Honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised; you throw out a proposition that runs counter to even the most basic understanding of behavior and psychology, basically saying that before Christ nobody knew how to be genuinely funny, and are surprised when people question that? Having an open mind doesn't mean you accept everything to be true. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::(EC)"But certainly much of the above, such as vulgarity, is not "humor" as defined primarily by the dictionary"
::Presumably if ANY of the above is humor as defined by the dictionary, then there was humor that pre-dated Christianity. If Aristophanes wrote a political satire ("a satirical comedy, poking fun ... at the state of contemporary politics"), would that not make it a humorous piece of work by any normal definition?[[User:Sam99foster|Sam99foster]] 18:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: ShawnJ and Sam99foster, please answer my question: are you saying that you believe the proposition to be automatically impossible??? It sure sounds that way from some of the closed-minded postings above. Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:::: No Andy, I don't find it automatically impossible, I find it impossible after brief consideration. That means I gave your question thought, and found its position to be ludicrous. The question infers that somehow, before Christ, humans did not have access to the full range of their emotions. You can argue over how humor, like ethics and morality, have changed over the years, but it doesn't stop them from existing. Rejecting the notion that humor didn't exist before Christ is not an example of closed-mindedness any more than rejecting the notion that 2+2=76 is. --[[User:ShawnJ|ShawnJ]] 23:22, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::::: Andy, why do you assume that we're automatically dismissing the notion? We are using historical facts and examples which you yourself seem to be dismissing out of hand without giving them any thought. Case in point, your two line rebuttal to a whole list of examples on the grounds that they are all "vulgar." Well, what's vulgar about this? "Other examples of Egyptian pictorial humor include depictions of animals engaged in human activities - like cats herding geese and goats and lions playing board games - juxtaposed with humans engaged in animal activity." Nothing sexual, crude, or otherwise off-color here, just a '''ludicrous''' and '''absurdly incongruous''' situation that could only be intended as humorous, and yet you, without apparently even reading what the user posted, flippantly dismiss it for some reason unbeknownst to the rest of us.

::::: Now, although you are somewhat correct in saying that comedy did not mean the same thing to the ancient Greeks that it does to a modern audience, you blindly overlook two other important points. First, that ancient definition of comedy--or a version of it (Boethian, to be exact)--lasted long past the birth of Christianity. Dante and Shakespeare both wrote their comedies under this ancient definition, which is why something like the The Divine Comedy is called, well, a comedy, despite the fact that the first third of it details brutal torture and punishment without any humor whatsoever, or at least none that I can recall off the top of my head. In essence, to credit Christianity with the rise of modern "comedy" simply because of the history of that word and the genre it represents misses the mark by at least 1500-1600 years.

::::: More importantly, you ignore the fact that Greeks also had a third dramatic form, the satyr play (from which we derive the English word "satire"), which was very close to what we mean by modern comedy. Fewer of these have survived, but the express purpose of these plays was to generate laughter, which is why they were named after satyrs, who were presumed to be pranksters in Greek myth. Very often, these plays simply relied on ludicrous and absurd situations to get the audience laughing. Often these were crude, yes, but not exclusively so.

::::: We aren't automatically dismissing the idea. We're dismissing the idea because it is objectively wrong and every single shred of evidence indicates the exact opposite, even when working within your incredibly limited definition of "humor." --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:10, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Sir, since you say parody is not humor, is [[Essay:Born_Outside_the_U.S.A.!|this]], therefore, not funny?

[[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 19:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Do you often speak in non sequiturs?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: How is that a non-sequitur? You argue that parody and satire are not humor, so I point you to something that you presumably wrote as a humorous piece. You certainly didn't reject the accolades that termed it funny.

::: You argue, ''"Note, by the way, that satire is not "humor" per its primary dictionary definition."'' What dictionary are you using? [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor According to Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary], this is the definition of humor in the context with which we are concerned (the others definitions concern the dated usage referring to the human body):

* that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
* something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing

Parody and satire seem to fit both the first and third. If you disagree, please explain why.

So, what is your definition? You've not provided one yet; you've merely said "humor is not (fill in the blank)".

I view humor as a gift from God. It allows us to get through our most troubling times. The idea that humor only existed after Christ is as alien to me as the idea that romantic love only existed after Christ. [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 20:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::: I apologize to Mr. Schlafly in that I charged that he had not provided a definition of humor -- he had, and it was, embarrassingly enough, the same one I cited. This topic has become long, and I missed his definition.

::: However, I still ask this: how do parody and satire '''''not''''' fit that definition?

::: Mr. Schlafly also cites the film ''Trading Places'' as an example of humor. Well, Eddie Murphy was never one of my favorites, since, particularly during the time he made that movie, he was extraordinarily foul-mouthed. But... as I understand it, plot of the movie is two people from different worlds trade lives, and we see how they both handle it, or fail to do so.

::: That strikes me as something that has to be one of the oldest jokes imaginable -- laughing at the "fish out of water" concept. I can easily imagine two Egyptian peasants, toiling down in the Nile Delta, lightening their day by laughing at the thought of the Pharaoh having to do their jobs for a while. "He'd be worried about getting his robes dirty!" "He probably couldn't even fill ten bushels of reeds!" (Of course, "ten bushels of reeds" isn't funny to us, but it might be hilarious to the guy who could pick thirty bushels before a lunch break.)

::: Now, admittedly, I'm speculating, but so is Mr. Schlafly. And I think my speculation is quite reasonable -- ancient people laughing at a concept we still find funny. He, by contrast, apparently imagines humanity consisted of a collection of dour sourpusses and/or vulgarians who couldn't appreciate anything beyond a flatulence joke until somewhere between 1 and 30 AD.

::: He also charges those of us who don't see his viewpoint of being close-minded. Sorry, no -- it is not close-minded to expect extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. If I said, "perhaps, until Christ was born, the sky was green and the grass was blue", you'd be justified in taking that with a huge grain of salt -- particularly if you presented me with some evidence that, in 200 BC, the sky was blue and the grass was green, and I responded with "well, that's not really ''blue'' and ''green'', that's ''cobalt'' and ''emerald''." [[User:ArthurA|ArthurA]] 08:47, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I'm new here but I don't understand this one. What has Christianity got to do with humour? In any case, the answer is "yes" - as contributors above suggest, go and read (or even better, watch) Aristophanes. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::Whilst shopping just now I nicked into my local newsagency-cum-bookshop. There were Penguin Classics editions on the shelf of Aristophanes' ''Frogs'', ''The Birds'', ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. This not a big shop....so it seems old Aristophanes is alive and kicking, if only as part of a subject at university. (I must admit that I only have the ''Wasps'' CDs because of the wonderful RVW incidental music written for a Cambridge Uni dramatic society performance in 1909, but it shows that he is not completely out of date and that his wit can be applied to modern circumstance.) The word ''wit'' is what I keep coming across regards his plays.[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)

==="Ancient humor"===
One thing I think many of Mr. Schlafay's detractors are overlooking is the possibility that the works we refer to as "comedies" today might not have been intended as comedies in their own time. The word "[[comedy]]" is English (as are all the other words used to describe Aristophanes' work: [[joke]], [[humor]], etc.), so we are in effect relying on modern translators of Ancient Greek to tell us what the Ancient Greeks thought about their own literary works.

The other day I was looking out my [[window]] and saw two [[squirrel]]s chasing each other up and down a [[tree]] trunk. Suddenly the lead squirrel stopped and turned around so suddenly that the other squirrel bumped into its head and fell off the tree! (It was only six feet or so off the ground, so the squirrel was unharmed.) I laughed at this funny occurrence — but of course the two squirrels weren't ''trying'' to put on a funny show for me; they were just doing what comes naturally to animals. Perhaps when we look into our history books and see the funny things that were done by Aristophanes, we should keep these two squirrels in mind. I think Mr. Schlafay was speaking particularly about the ''conscious'' exercise of humor — the ''intention'' to do funny things, not simply the ''fact'' of having done funny things. Nobody can seriously argue that nothing funny ever happened in antiquity... but ''why'' did it happen? that's the question. --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 21:48, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: That's an excellent point. Some of the ancient vulgarity, for example, was probably not intended to be "funny" any more than compulsive profanity today is intended to be funny. Someone 1000 years from now may look at dialog between two public school students today as being absolutely hilarious, even though the students are not trying to be funny now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:: The City Dionysia, which is the festival where these plays were preformed had several highly established conventions, including that four plays were to be preformed by each group: three tragedies and then a comedy. Comedies by nature are funny. While vulgar humor was indeed used, they still fit the definition of comedy ("a drama of light and amusing character and typically with a happy ending" according to Merriam-Webster). Whether people find them funny is up to them (I happen to like Scrubs, while my brother despises the show. However, he likes Family Guy, which I dislike). But the original intent of the comedies was to make people laugh, which qualifies it as humor [[User:ENorman|ENorman]] 22:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::That's very clever thinking, Garth. Fortunately, we have contemporary reviews of the work of authors like Aristophanes, which described them as being humorous (or in some cases not humorous enough!).
::I suspect that this debate might be in order to get people thinking outside the box while at the same time testing their composure. Of course, humor could have not predated Christianity and of course, that is not the case. But how are you going to react when someone doggedly pursues the contrary? How are you going to react when someone refuses to define their terms or moves the goalpost or shifts ground? Will you calmly research and respond? Or will you resort to liberal deceit and condescend to them. Not only should you survey the responses you see here, you should also be doing research of your own before you form your conclusions.
::If you do your research, you will probably find the evidence for pre-Christian humor that you find compelling. Either way, come back here and attempt to argue your point. Remember to stay calm, approachable and accommodating. I urge you to engage in this exercise and wish you the best. [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 22:53, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Garth, there were no "''funny things done by Aristophanes''" any more than there were ''funny things done by'' humorous writers of modern times. He wrote plays, in verse, using the formal dramatic restraints of his day. In 5th century Athens there were two distinct forms of stage performances. There were the Tragedies, the most famed writers of which are Euripides and Aeschylus; and the Comedies, represented today by our mate Aristophanes. Never the twain did meet. They probably both developed out of pre-Classical Dionysian ritual, but by Classical times they were distinct from each other. Unlike the tragedians, Aristophanes set out to make people laugh; and to do this he used many of the forms used today - funny or fantastical situations, plays on words, ridicule of people in power, etc., He is supposed to have been very witty. He had a way with words. He was also a serious man who was concerned at perceived faults in the society he lived in, and used humor as a weapon against these things. He is recorded as saying "comedy knows what is right." He brought the powerful down a peg or two. My "Dictionary of Greek Civilisation", a book set for university courses during the 1970s, called him "a comic genius". [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 22:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Mr. Schlafay: Thank you. ENorman and "Fundie": It sounds like you are resorting to [[appeal to authority]] in this case. Remember that we do not actually have "contemporary reviews" of Aristophanes; what we have are ''modern translations'' of those works. I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review. "Fundie", I'm glad we agree about the value of exercise. AlanE: If Aristophanes never did anything funny, then in what sense was he a comedian? You describe him as a "serious man" who "ridicule[d] people in power"; this Aristophanes sounds like something of a [[liberal]] [[radical]]! :) --[[User:GarthA|GarthA]] 23:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:Who were the "liberals" - those in power or Aristophanes? Let's not bring today's concepts into describing someone who lived 2500years ago. He was not a comedian any more than Jonathan Swift was when he used ''Gulliver's Travels'' to lampoon the foibles of his age. Have you read him? The use of comedy to prick the inflated egos of the powerful, whether they be politicians, judges, or whatever, has a long and noble history, both for those on the left and on the right. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)

:: This is so ignorant it's just adorable:

:: <blockquote>"I'm not even sure we would be justified in calling them "reviews", as you did, since I doubt the Ancient Greeks had anything like the modern conception of a film review or book review."</blockquote>

:: What in the wide wide world of sports do you think Aristotle's ''Poetics'' was? --[[User:JakeLa|Jake Lassiter]] 10:33 12 February 2009

:Remember to do a little research! The first line of Aristophanes' ''[http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/frogs.html The Frogs]'':
::<blockquote>XANTHIAS: Shall I crack any of those old jokes, master, At which the audience never fail to laugh?</blockquote>
:I'm almost positive there is some implication of humor somewhere in there! Form your own conclusions! [[User:FundieMath|FundieMath]] 23:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:::Well done, Fundie! [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
::::Having read this controversy with interest, I am forced to agree with Mr Schalfly. There is a difference between the theatre of cruelty - sarcasm and cruel raillery - that was the hallmark of the pagan Greeks, and true humour, which to be effective needs access to the depths of ones heart and soul, a perspective that only became real through the incarnation and suffering of Christ. Similarly, the coarseness of peasant nonsense such as was available to primitive peoples - the ancient equivalent of gurning through horse collars - has no right to be defined as humour. What Mr Schlafly is attempting to describe (albeit to a deliberately unreceptive audience) is something wiser, something altogether more refined and insightful. I wish him luck in persuading the unpersuadable. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 14:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::::Hi and welcome to CP, Regal! I'm interested in your view of my quote from ''The Frogs'' (above) in light of CP's definition of [[Humor]]:

:::::<blockquote>Humor is an act, statement, or other form of communication done to invoke laughter, amusement, or happiness in the audience.</blockquote>

:::::If you agree that Xanthias intended to invoke laughter by cracking jokes and continue to believe that this is not humor, please explain how you would like to see our definition of 'humor' changed. [[User:MattL|MattL]] 14:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
::::::And G'day from me, Regal. Can you tell us what dictionary you use? All of mine say more or less the same things. What is refined humour,? Wise humour. Insightful humour. Can we have examples? BTW, all the things you find detestable in so-called ''pagan'' humour is found unabated in Chaucer and the ''Decamaron'' and the other medieval story-tellers. Shakespeare used it. Scatalogical humour was the rage through most of the reformation times and later. Mozart wrote scatalogical songs. The bedroom farce has always been popular - we had no senior churchmen refusing to go to ''The Marriage of Figaro''. The Greeks laughed at the dolt and so do we - hence the undying popularity of the Inspector Clouseau type character through history. Nothing changed. No one is denying that much pagan humour was coarse; but what I am saying is that it has never stopped being coarse, and I am also saying that before Christ there was humour of the kind that we find in Wodehouse or Wilde, and the one-liners of Groucho Marx or Dorothy Parker, which are clever because they manage to nail an aspect of the human condition in so few words. Aristophanes could do that.(Unlike I, who go on and on...:))[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:58, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::: It appears that discussing humor with [[atheists]] is a fool's errand because they, like the ancient Greeks, are unable (or refuse) to open their minds to what real humor is. I've defined it several times, as does the dictionary; it is something "ludicrous" or "absurdly incongruous." Vulgarities may amuse the simple-minded to no end, and so may slapstick comedy (which is all the "Frogs" is referencing in its opening line), but it's not humor.

::::::: We've learned something from this discussion. It's not just the pre-Christians who were without humor, but so are [[atheists]] today. It's unfortunate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:57, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::::"Ludicrous": amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity; causing laughter because of absurdity; broadly or extravagantly humorous, resembling farce. All of these definitions are fulfilled in the examples that have already been stated in this discussion. For that matter, they are all fulfilled by the image on [http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/r/wine_bowl,_apulia.aspx this vase in the British Museum] from the fourth century BC.
::::::::::If your second paragraph is meant to imply that your whole premise behind claiming that there was no humor before Christianity was to poke fun of atheists - since only atheists are so humorless as to take such a ludicrous proposition seriously - then I am afraid that your Modest Proposal has been found lacking.--[[User:Brossa|Brossa]] 18:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)

:::::::: Now that we've established that humor is a post-Christian phenomenon, we would do well to explore it's origins within Christianity. Do you have early Christian examples? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

::::::::: In regards to something ludicrous or absurdly incongruous, from Plutarch's ''The Comparison of Demosthenes and Cicero'':

:::::::::<blockquote>So also we are told that when Cicero, being consul, undertook the defence of Murena against Cato's prosecution, by way of bantering Cato, he made a long series of jokes upon the absurd paradoxes, as they are called, of the Stoic set; so that a loud laughter passing from the crowd to the judges, Cato, with a quiet smile, said to those that sat next him, "My friends, what an amusing consul we have."</blockquote> We can plainly see that this is absurd. Now for the incongruity - A paradox, as defined by MW, is "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true". Incongruous, as defined by MW, describes "something inconsistent with itself". Could this possibly be an example of humor? [[User:MattL|MattL]] 17:11, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Merriam-Webster also says that humor is "something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing." Doesn't that describe Aristophanes? [[User:BenjaminC|BenjaminC]] 17:38, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:It seems that I go away an hour and suddenly I am "without humour" and an atheist,Andy. Why have you reverted to (a) being personal to someone whose sense of humour you know nothing about and who has based his arguments on basic well-documented scholarly texts in a generally polite manner and (b)decided on a definition of humour that is at odds with every dictionary and encyclopedia I can find? Whether I am a Methodist, atheist, Catholic or calathumpian has nothing to do with the my arguments which, like most of my words in this site, are based on a lifetime of reading the canon of western literature and about it. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::I don't know why Mr Schlafly should have to defend himself against such an intemperate passive-aggressive assault. And if, as you claim, you are an expert on the entire canon of western culture, I should expect to find you in concordance with his ideas. [[User:RegalBruin|RegalBruin]] 11:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I didn't say, nor mean to imply, I was "''an expert on the entire canon of western culture''", Regal. What I can say is that that I, especially in this case, is that I am basing my statements on books (you know...those old fashioned things with pages that people used to read and geriatrics like me still do - I own thousands of them and have read untold thousands more.) So if I talk about the humour in Chaucer or Shakespeare, or mention Voltaire, or Beaumarchais (who? he says), Regal, it's because I've been there, mate, and done that, and have the tee shirt. (Even if, half the time now I have forgotten where I've put it!) Now, I assume you are being silly, perhaps "parodical", in your final phrase, but I am not in the mood. Andrew Schafly might be able to turn off severe sciatica with a quick prayer, but I can't; so I want to take it out on people: and seeing its not yet dawn and the rest of the family is still fast asleep, that means you! So do me one favour...go and find one reference - just one - from a reputable reference source, that "humour" started with Christianity. (And while you are at it, try and help Andrew by finding a reference for the Chinese inventing bamboo.)[[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 14:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

::The assumption that anyone who disagrees with Mr. S must be an atheist is indeed a pretty flimsy deflecting tactic. The claim being debated is not quite as bizarre as saying that there was no epic poetry before Christ.
::I'll chime in re the claim that the pagans had only farcical, bawdy, dirty type humor. I'm only familiar with 2 Aristophanes plays, ''Lysistrata'' and ''The Clouds''. ''Lysistrata'' does have a bawdy premise - the women of Greece conspire to not go to bed with their husbands until they end their war - but the play's point was political, not sexual, and it spoke on a real contemporary topic (the Peloponessian War) and addressed leading politicians by name. ''Clouds'' is a purely intellectual satire, making fun of the sophists in general and Socrates in particular. (Soc. was not actually a sophist but was apparently identified with them.) There are also a few poop jokes thrown in there, but that's no different from a lot of intellectual comedy today: I think of ''Little Miss Sunshine,'' that had jokes about Proust and Nietzshe, but also jokes about the dirty old grandfather character.
::My favorite thing about ''Clouds'' is that the main butt of the jokes, Socrates, was ''actually there in the audience'' watching it. The intro to my copy says that at the performance, the mask for the Socrates actor was such a good caricature, they had Socrates himself stand up so the audience could applaud the mask maker. [[User:Fishal|Fishal]] 20:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
:::A lot of this boils down to arguing definitions - a fruitless argument that could go on endlessly if we had nothing better to do. What does interest me is the idea of a new form of humor emerging during or after the life of Jesus. Does anyone have any examples of a first- or second-century shift towards more refined types of humor? Perhaps "What is the earliest example of genuine humor" could be added to the list of mysteries?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 11:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
::::I don't know if this has been brought up, but it appears that Mr. Schlafly doesn't find the "crude" humour entertaining (nothing wrong with that, it'd not everybody's thing) but what about wordplay and the double negative? I sumbit my favorite passage from Homer's Odyssey: When captured by the Cyclops, Odysseus tells him that his name is "Nobody." Later, after they attack the Cyclops and blind him, he storms around his cave in a rage screaming "Nobody will not get out alive" a double negative, and then calls to his brothers that "Nobody has blinded me, Nobody has blinded me." The Cyclops thinks he is calling for help, but not understanding what he is actually saying, his brothers misunderstand him and stay away... This type of humour leads directly to the modern examples of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?" routine, as well as the Chico and Groucho's constant back and forth in their movies "Chico:(looking at a Contract) What'sa this?" "Groucho: That's just the standard Sanity Clause" "Chico:You can't fool me, there ain't no Sanity Claus." [[User:StephenK|StephenK]] 12:15, 11 February 2009 (EST)

==Who was right - Catholics or Protestants?==

Can you explain what you mean by this question? It's a bit like asking - who is right, Christians of Buddhists? Do you mean, regarding Transubstantiation? Or do you mean celibacy? Or the infallibility of the Pope? Maybe you could phrase it a little more clearly? Finally, do you think it's helpful to the world to see the world like this? Doesn't every faith believe it's 'right'? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 17:10, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: Surely you don't think that just because different people hold different views that each think are right, truth therefore does not exist. If I told that some cultures believe that 2+2 equals infinity, and are convinced they are right, would that change your view that 2+2=4 and not infinity?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)

::Well, yes, I do? Despite my own faith, I cannot in all sincerity tell a Buddhist that their faith is nonsense - I simply don't believe that's a way to get along with the rest of the planet, the pursuit of which is, after all, is our bounden duty here on this Earth. My own faith (Catholicism) has experienced many controversies, and although I hold fast to my faith, I acknowledge that it is not without its flaws and appalling mistakes. Jesus taught us to "love thy neighbour", after all. But to return to the question at hand - "who is right, Catholics or Protestants?". As an Irish Catholic married to an Irish Protestant, I'm sure you'll understand there's a great deal of sensitivity over this issue on our Island. And I'm certainly not about to tell my partner that her beliefs are 'wrong'. But what 'right' are you referring to? [[User:TadghOB|TadghOB]] 19:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

To keep this conversation from devolving into an ideological argument, I thought I might try to clarify the original question: I interpret it as referring to the issues at the heart of the Protestant Reformation, namely the allegations of abuses of power within the Catholic Church, the selling of indulgences, the lack of reliance on Scripture, etc. Some of these are purely theological points, but I think historical discussion can bring light to the issue of whether or not the Protestants were justified in some of their more pragmatic claims. --[[User:Economist|Economist]] 19:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)

: In reply to TadghOB, one thing about Jesus is indisputable: He did tell others they were wrong, and was very clear that He was divisive rather than uniting.

: In reply to Economist, there is the issue of how to deal with the problems, and what the subsequent centuries and today illustrate. I'm not yet taking a position on the question, but am pointing out how your list is incomplete.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:25, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Why did Islam grow so rapidly? ==

Not sure there's a lot of mystery here. The rise of Islam is well documented in both Arab and Byzantine sources. The "mystery", if there is one, is how Mohammed managed to convert a sizeable number of followers in his lifetime and how they became organised into a small but effective military force. Thereafter, Islam spread for several reasons. Initially, it was confined to Arab soldiers and their families and was something of an elite religion. But the Arabs were generally welcomed by the common people in the Byzantine territories because they imposed lighter taxes, their military levies were less oppressive and they didn't cut people's heads off because they disagreed with the Emperor's theological opinions. The same factors are reflected in the decline of the Byzantine empire, to the benefit of the Arabs in West Asia and North Africa: excessive taxation, too many able-bodied men from wealthy families joining the priesthood to evade military service, and continuous demoralisation of the population through religious disputes. Added to that was the over-centralisation of power in the Byzantine Empire, with the result that when the Emperor was out of action, there were few men with both the authority and the competence to wield power effectively. Such was the situation at the decisive Battle of the Yarmouk, in what is now northern Jordan, when the Emperor Heraclius was ill and unable to take the field, resulting in a decisive victory for the Arabs.

Islam spread in the territories conquered by the Arabs for similar reasons to the spread of Christianity in Europe: local rulers ingratiating themselves with their overlord (the Arab Caliph in this case), the prestige of being part of the official religion, the apparent evidence that God must favour the Muslims because he enabled them to win battles, and lower taxation for Muslims.

It's much harder to understand why the Byzantine Empire lasted as long as it did. Also, why did the Arabs not conquer most of the West? The post-Roman kingdoms in the West seem to have been more organised and effective than historians gave them credit for until recently.

See e.g. John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium (three volumes but extremely - even addictively - readable). Also 'The Formation of Christendom' by Judith Herrin, the standard modern work on the interplay of Church and State in the Byzantine Empire; she shows that the church wasn't always a negative influence, as Edward Gibbon supposed. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 20:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)
:In addition to Fred's information above, Islam burst out of Arabia at a time when both the Byzantines and the Persians were completely exhausted from fighting each other interminably. There is also talk of a plague epidemic that wasted the so-called civilised powers but had little effect in the sparcely populated Arabian desert. [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 20:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

== Romans ==

''Did the Romans recognize or understand the concept of "truth"?''

What reason do you have to think that they did not? We would surely disagree with any ancient people (not just the Romans) about whether certain ideas are true or false, but that would not mean that the people did not understand the ''concept'' of truth. What meaning do you think the word ''veritas'' had for the Romans?--[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 07:18, 20 February 2009 (EST)

== Literacy in Ancient Greece ==

I don't know what the literacy level is in the USA but let's guess at 98-99%. In ancient Greece, the people who were able to read were free, male city dwellers - and by no means all of them. Perhaps 1% of the population could read. Not sure why this one is on the list of mysteries, because it isn't one. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:11, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Decline and fall of the Roman Empire ==

This is at the other end of the spectrum - i.e. a truly unsolved problem which has been a rich subject for academic research and debate. Many books have been written about this subject so you need some kind of strategy to assemble a decent essay on the subject. I would say it's more accurate to write about the ''transformation'' of the Roman Empire, not its fall. The Eastern half of the Roman Empire as divided by Diocletian became the Eastern Roman Empire, governed from Constantinople. The Western half became a set of independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic tribes. The territory of both the Western and Eastern halves of the Empire on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, plus the Levant, became part of the Arab Caliphate. All these successor states relied heavily on Roman methods of administration and law. Arguably, the ''only'' part of the Empire that actually declined and fell, insofar as the lives of ordinary people we concerned, was England.

Some of the more important causes of the decline (transformation):
* Environmental degradation of farmland.
* The permanent state of civil war for over 50 years in the middle of the 3rd century.
* Over-centralisation of power in the hands of the emperors from the late 3rd century onwards, partly as a reaction to the instability of the 3rd century.
* Outsourcing - i.e. the replacement of Roman manpower in the army by German mercenaries.
* The sapping of the numbers of young men who could serve in the army, especially as officers, because ordination as a priest or even a deacon precluded military service.
* The decline in the tax base, because priests and monks didn't have to pay taxes.
* Population pressure as tribes (e.g. the Huns) were forced westward by the failure of farming in central Asia.
* The Great Plague of c.535, which may have been even more destructive than the Black Death.
* Interminable religious disputes diverted much of the empire's intellectual effort.
* As ever in history, chance. The Emperor Heraclius, possibly the greatest general of all Roman emperors, fell ill at a critical moment. The Arabs, on the other hand, were commanded by their greatest general, Khalid ibn al-Walid, and, against all expectations, won what is now called the Battle of the Yarmouk in 636.
[[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:40, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

== Did the Hebrews build the pyramids? ==

Almost certainly not. If you mean the Pyramids of Giza, including the Great Pyramid of Khufu, they were built in the 4th Dynasty (c.2500BC), about a millennium before Joseph. I don't know where the Hebrews were at that time, but it wasn't Egypt. The last of the significant pyramids in Egypt was built in the 12th Dynasty, c.1860BC, a good 200 years before Joseph.

According to the Bible, which should be considered semi-historical evidence, Joseph used a chariot but chariots didn't appear in Egypt till c.1650BC.

So: no, and not a mystery. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:52, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-08T23:40:39Z

FredFerguson: /* Decline and fall of the Roman Empire */ new section

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-03-08T23:11:05Z

FredFerguson: /* Literacy in Ancient Greece */ new section

Talk:Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:42:16Z

FredFerguson: /* Amerindians & Asians */ Statement deleted

== Public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old. ==

So is penicillin. That doesn't make it a bad thing. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 18:15, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

: Then why don't liberals admit it about public schools, and question its long-term value (harm)?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:20, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

:Can you provide any sources that show that the majority of liberals deny that the current public education system is less than 100 years old? As a liberal, and being in a fairly liberal community, I have never even heard that this was an issue. --[[User:AndrasK|AndrasK]] 21:03, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::Should this entry not read 'American public schools...', I am not going to comment on American schools, as I know very little about them. However public schools (in the American sense, ie state sponsored and controlled schools) have existed for centuries in other countries. For instance the state school I went to was founded in 1445 --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 18:55, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

:::Universal education has been provided from public funds in Scotland since about 1570. England caught up with the Education Act in 1870 and many towns and villages, including the one I live in, have state schools which are much older than that (early 19th century in our case). So as J00ni says, this statement is specific to the USA.
:::In any case, as AliceBG says, so what? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:29, 10 February 2009 (EST)

== This essay sparks interest, but... ==

...then we're left with no source or explanation, so the overall impression is a startled shrug. Which ''is'' a pity, so I offer my view in the hope that you could expand it.

For example, the Rhode Island point immediately triggers the question what makes you assume that this single cause (separation of church and state) among the undoubtedly many had the consequence (slave importer). Our entry about Rhode Island currently states that "Rhode Island was the first state to outlaw slavery", so what's to stop somebody from claiming that the separation of church and state caused this, too? Without any explanation or source, both conclusions are equally valid (and shaky).

The point about public school education in its current form being just 100 years old is fairly weak because my reaction was "...it seems to work pretty well, so what's the point?" You seem to assume that every conservative will go "Oh no! Public schools in their current form are horrible!", but... nope, sorry. :/ I'm not saying public schools are Heaven on Earth, but to me, this item looks out of place on a list about Liberal History Denials. It would help if you at least explained the alternative: What changed 100 years ago?

And if I'm not ''completely'' mistaken, liberals don't deny that chivalry was a big thing here (conversely, I never noticed conservatives pointing out that chivalry was customary throughout history) - it just happened to be a big thing in several other countries, too, so I don't see the need to go out of my way to point it out. It's sort of a given. But maybe I'm missing your point. Please enlighten me, I'm always open for new ideas!

Lastly, the "American Indians vs. Asians" thing... really needs a source. Who says they're "too different", for example? And on what basis? This sounds like a fairly complex evolution issue, so it ''really'' needs some background.

I'm fairly new here, and this essay strikes me as a collection of "inside jokes" (not in the "funny" sense, but in the "This will make little sense unless you also read my other fifty essays about these things" sense). So I would appreciate some expansion of these points. --[[User:DirkB|DirkB]] 19:47, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

: As to your first point, there's no denying a correlation between the separation of church and state and slavery, though [[liberals]] will refuse to admit it. I've updated our Rhode Island entry to reflect that this tiny state controlled 60-90% of the African slave trade after the Revolution.

: Your other points are not any more open-minded. Public schools in their current form is less than 100 years old. It's a fact. The fact has significance. Admit it and teach it. If you think critical analysis of the results of this less-than-100-year experience is inappropriate, then welcome to the liberal mindset.

: Chivalry is not taught as part of history. It should be. Your view is unclear.

: American Indians are different from Asians in almost every significant way. Blood type. Interests. Every other measure you can think of. Deny it and join the liberal denial about history.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:06, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

I have a few questions about these. I'll address them one by one for simplicity.
# Can one say for sure they are too different for one to have descended from the other? YEC theory postulates that everyone is descended from two people. Obviously major changes in such groups have occurred over the years, and very different groups must have common ancestry.
#Rhode Island was the biggest importer of slaves? That's news to me. Overall, I think you'll find Virginia, Georgia, and the Carolinas imported more slaves than Rhode Island ever did. I know you don't care for Wikipedia, but, for lack of a more convenient source, if you look at their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_America Slavery in America] article, you'll see he highest slave population for any year in RI was less than a thousand, while in Virginia it at one point reached nearly half a million.
#Chivalry, in its most literal sense, dealt with etiquette among the gentry and nobility. America does not have a nobility, has never had knighthood, and has not had such a code. In its less formal sense: etiquette rules in general, manners, politeness (especially towards women), I don't think anyone denies its presence.
#As for the age of the public school system, I'm not sure if its denied; I just wonder the significance. If you're saying it's not adequately tried and true, well, I have to wonder, what is the alternative? Homeschooling is not an option for most people. Even when one parent can stay home with the child for 18 years, how competent will any one person be at teaching multiple subjects at an advanced level? I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but I couldn't teach most classes at a high school level. If I ever had a special needs child I wouldn't know where to begin. It seems to me there are 4 choices: public school, private school, home school, or no school. The last should not be an option, the middle two aren't available to everyone, so that just leaves public school. While its far from perfect, I think efforts should go towards improvement rather than dismissal.
Well, that's my thought. I hope you'll take the time to reply. Thanks. [[User:Sanders|Sanders]] 20:43, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::(Edit Conflict with Sanders, so some points might overlap)
::Andy, I believe you missed ''all'' of my points and simply replied by repeating your claims. But maybe it's my fault for not being clear enough. Paraphrasing Sun Tzu: "If words of question are not clear and distinct, if requests are not thoroughly understood, then the initial poster is to blame." So here we go again, more to the point (I hope):
::#"There's no denying it" is a very bad reply to a request for sourcing and explanation. If it's so obvious and undeniable, then you can surely produce at least a single source that explains (instead of just asserting) it. Or, since you arrived at that conclusion, you can surely explain it yourself. You're a teacher - would you tell your student that "there's no denying it" if they asked you "Could you explain how Rhode Island's position as #1 slave importer was a result of the church/state separation?"? I hope not.
::#I didn't doubt that "public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old". My questions were how things had been 100 years ago and what the point of this claim is. You don't even say what the results are, but you imply that I disfavor critical analysis of such results. In fact, that's why I repeatedly called for expansion of your points. I know you value conciseness, but in its current form, this essay only teases and hints, but fails to deliver. Which is why I made my initial comment in the first place (along with notes saying just that).
::#Chivalry... I really don't get why you want to stress it in a single country when it was widely spread. Unless your point is that it should be pointed out also for the other countries. I could agree with that. But either way, this strikes me as pointless. Also, your claim that it's not taught is weak: My History teacher pointed out that it was followed in the US and other countries as a basic concept, along with a brief primer about its roots. But from what I remember, it's more of a social issue and less of a distinct historic one in terms of impact (and even less of a distinct US History one), so I currently don't see the need for such emphasis. But I repeat: I'm willing to listen if you explain it. I'm open for new things. But simply repeating your short claims without any sort of source or background won't help.
::#A great response. I ask for background, a source and an expansion, and you basically reply with "Almost everything is different! If you deny this, then you're a Liberal History Denier!" Though I admit that the "Their interests are different!" bit cracked me up. I always like a teacher with humor. I can see it now. "Asians like Mahjong. American Indians didn't. Hah-ha!" :P Seriously, though, you're making a veeeeery strong claim here that deeply dips into evolutionary biology and ethnology, so in the interest of all your readers, I ask for a source.
::I hope this sums up my issues in a more clear way. I'm happy you replied, but I would be even happier if you actually replied to my questions/requests. :) --[[User:DirkB|DirkB]] 20:57, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::: DirkB, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, let me try again:
::: Point 1: religion teaches that slavery is wrong. Separating church and state means separating "slavery is wrong" from "state". The result is legalized slavery. Got it now? That's why Rhode Island imported up to 90% of the slaves. Don't continue to pretend you don't get the connection. Of course liberals are going to deny the connection exists, and perhaps so will you.
::: Point 2: there's no question here requiring a response. This is a fact that should be taught and discussed. But liberals won't.
::: Point 3: if you think your history teacher taught you about chivalry in colonial America, then please repeat that for our benefit here. I doubt you heard much about it.
::: Point 4: I said the blood types (and virtually everything else) is different between American Indians and Asians. You respond with silliness. You have free will to deny the truth. I'm interested in the truth and that's where you'll find me.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:37, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

(undent) Aschlafly, I assume that the Asian/Native American theory is taught because it is the consensus generally agreed upon by the experts. If it is so obviously wrong, what do you suggest should be taught in its place? [[User:KimEide|KimEide]] 11:07, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I am curious about what is meant by "blood types". After all, all humans share the same blood types or groups (if it refers to A, B, O, AB). Or is it a reference to DNA? --[[User:JessicaT|KotomiT]][[User talk:JessicaT|''Hajimemashite!'']] 12:40, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

On the Rhode Is. slavery question, I think this may be Andy's reference:

''Rhode Island, of course, was among the most active Northern colonies in importing slaves. Between 1709 and 1807, Rhode Island merchants sponsored at least 934 slaving voyages to the coast of Africa and carried an estimated 106,544 slaves to the New World. From 1732-64, Rhode Islanders sent annually 18 ships, bearing 1,800 hogsheads of rum, to Africa to trade for slaves, earning £40,000 annually. Newport, the colony's leading slave port, took an estimated 59,070 slaves to America before the Revolution. Bristol and Providence also prospered from it. In the years after the Revolution, Rhode Island merchants controlled between 60 and 90 percent of the American trade in African slaves.
http://www.slavenorth.com/rhodeisland.htm'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:09, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

==A bulleted list...==
A bullet list doesn't quite make it as an essay. While I'd like to think the author will be making additions and fleshing out his arguments, other [[Essay:5 Questions to Ask an Anti-Conservative|"essays"]] [[Essay:10 Ways Liberals Create Atheists|similarly]] are nothing more than [[Essay:Most Influential Persons|baldfaced assertions]] with little or no [[Essay:Electoral College|actual]] [[Essay:Conservatism Essential to Religion|substance]] or [[Essay:Greatest Mysteries of American History|well thought-out]] [[Essay:Hillary's Strategy to Win|arguments]]. Most seem nothing more than mere lists of things to be against, to link to internal articles (or worse other "essays"). <s>Good luck defending your lists Aschlafly, for without an inkling as to what thoughts may be behind your spate of "essays", readers will likely come to the conclusion that the author of such drivel cannot be a vital, energetic thinker but an intellectually lazy and shallow person who cannot put across a cogent argument and satisfies his impotent rage with lists of "bad thoughts".</s> [[User talk:MargeryCampbell|Marge]] 15:40, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
===NOTE===
The above was written by me, Christopher Campbell using my mother's account here. She only found out that I was using her account shen she tried to edit later on and found that she could not due to being blocked. At first she thought someone on the internet "hacked" her account and while it was tempting to let her believe this I finally fessed up to making the edit. 
My Mother will not let me have any internet accounts of my own that she hasn't personally set up and monitor. Nor will she let me have an account here at Conservapedia, (which is why I was forced to use her account). She said that the above proves that I am not ready to edit responsibly, showing (as it does) little regard for the feelings of Mr Schlafly and his efforts to make Conservapedia the best it can be.

'''I therefore publicly apologize to you Mr Schlafly for the great wrong I have done, "speaking" rashly and denigrating your encyclopedia without care as to you, your administrators and the other fine editors who are attempting to make Conservapedia a resource we all can be proud of.'''

Christopher Campbell 16:15, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
(EDT)

:::Well I think that (for one so young) it was an excellent, if somewhat abrasive critique. It is, however, best to critique the work and ideas not the man: drop the "drivel", "intellectually lazy" and "shallow" comments next time. --[[User:Toffeeman|Toffeeman]] 10:35, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Dark Ages ==

Bullet point 7: "The so-called Dark Ages saw a great revolution in science and learning, brought about by the spread of Christianity throughout Europe and the establishment of networks of monastic 'universities'."

The first phrase is correct, but the rest isn't. The revolution in learning took place in Muslim countries in particular, as well as India and China although the latter two areas did not influence Europe directly until the late 13th century. Europe contributed very little original scholarship indeed for nearly six centuries. A list of notable scholars in Europe in the Dark Ages (by which I assume you mean from the end of the Western Empire in 476 to the early 11th century) would include Isidore of Seville, the great encyclopaedist (d.636), Bede, the historian (d.735), and Alcuin, the theologian and polymath (d.804). There may be a few others but these are probably the only three who stand comparison with the much large number of eminent Muslim scholars of that half-millennium (and even Alcuin would be doubtful in that regard). Europe was very much an intellectual backwater until Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II from 999) brought Arab learning from Cordoba to Christian Europe.

Places like Seville around 600, Jarrow around 700 and Charlemagne's court at Aachen around 800 were centres of scholarship (qv Isidore, Bede and Alcuin respectively) but cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as universities. The concept of a university as an educational institution which teaches and awards degrees in a wide range of subjects originated in the Muslim world. Those at Fez and Cairo, built in what Europeans call the Dark Ages, are still very much active. The establishment of the earliest universities in Christian Europe, e.g. Bologna, was clearly inspired by the success of universities in Muslim Europe (i.e. Sicily and Spain).

Bottom line: this bullet point should be deleted. [[User:WaZi|WaZi]] 15:47, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

:You are incorrect in your interpretation. A study of Bede's life would show that Jarrow did not stand in isolation, but was part of a network of monastic 'universities' - and the term is used advisedly - that extended across [[Christendom]]. The emphasis in modern historical studies on [[Islamic]] scholarship is based upon a prevalent self-hating Liberal ideology that is unable to credit [[Christianity]] with any positive achievements, and retrospectively adorns the current enemy of modern democratic values with laurels. This is not top decry medieval Islamic scholarship, which had much of merit, but to rescue Christian science and scholarship from its current, politially-motivated neglect. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 15:53, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

::1. It sounds as though you need to do some reading about early mediaeval scholarship! Isidore certainly influenced Muslim scholars in Spain but, Bede apart, no Christian scholar from the mid-7th to early 11th century made an original contribution to scholarship comparable to those of Muslims such as Avicenna and Averroes or Jews such as Moses Maimonides.
::2. I don't understand your point about "the current enemy of modern democratic values". How does that relate to Islam in general? [[User:WaZi|WaZi]] 16:56, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

:::WaZi is correct. I've deleted this statement. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:32, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Conservative denials about history==
If liberals were to write their own version of this, it would probably accuse conservatives of lying about exactly the same subjects. Wouldn't it be better to make a serious historical claim, with references to academic analysis, verifiable sources, and such respectable things? It would certinly be better than just declaring that liberals are lying with a one-sentence claim and no backing evidence, even if they are. It makes conservapedia look stupid. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 14:40, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

== Misnamed ==

I always thought that it was called the "guilded age" because there was so much money and prosperity; everything was figuratively gold-coated (gilded). I'm confused why this age is misnamed. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:15, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

==Status==
''That contributions to history are determined more by status than by effort or Providence. This bias is a form of status worship.'' I'm confused. Isn't it liberals who are always being accused of insisting that the contributions of minorities and women be added to textbooks and courses, even if that displaces learning about white men with more status whose contributions may have been more significant? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:10, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

: "Status" is not the same as "contributions". Often they are opposites. The comment here is about the increasing focus of history books on status, such as who held public office or who won an award, rather than on contributions such as Thomas Edison's works. This issue has nothing to do with race.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:48, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

::Is there any evidence that history books once had less focus on "status" than they do now? [[User:Corry|Corry]] 21:27, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

::: My personal experience as a teacher of over 6 years, and as a student. There is more focus today on who held what position, rather than who accomplished what. I welcome anyone who has old textbooks to see how much more attention was paid to folks like Thomas Edison in the past.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:34, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

== Amerindians & Asians ==

The statement that American Indians are too different from East Asians to have been descended from them is incorrect so I've deleted it. Several genetic studies using variation in DNA sequences have shown that American Indians are more closely related to East Asians than to any other group. E.g. see Risch et al (2003) in ''Genome Biology'' 3:1−12. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Talk:Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:41:36Z

FredFerguson: /* Amerindians & Asians */ new section

== Public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old. ==

So is penicillin. That doesn't make it a bad thing. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 18:15, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

: Then why don't liberals admit it about public schools, and question its long-term value (harm)?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:20, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

:Can you provide any sources that show that the majority of liberals deny that the current public education system is less than 100 years old? As a liberal, and being in a fairly liberal community, I have never even heard that this was an issue. --[[User:AndrasK|AndrasK]] 21:03, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::Should this entry not read 'American public schools...', I am not going to comment on American schools, as I know very little about them. However public schools (in the American sense, ie state sponsored and controlled schools) have existed for centuries in other countries. For instance the state school I went to was founded in 1445 --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 18:55, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

:::Universal education has been provided from public funds in Scotland since about 1570. England caught up with the Education Act in 1870 and many towns and villages, including the one I live in, have state schools which are much older than that (early 19th century in our case). So as J00ni says, this statement is specific to the USA.
:::In any case, as AliceBG says, so what? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:29, 10 February 2009 (EST)

== This essay sparks interest, but... ==

...then we're left with no source or explanation, so the overall impression is a startled shrug. Which ''is'' a pity, so I offer my view in the hope that you could expand it.

For example, the Rhode Island point immediately triggers the question what makes you assume that this single cause (separation of church and state) among the undoubtedly many had the consequence (slave importer). Our entry about Rhode Island currently states that "Rhode Island was the first state to outlaw slavery", so what's to stop somebody from claiming that the separation of church and state caused this, too? Without any explanation or source, both conclusions are equally valid (and shaky).

The point about public school education in its current form being just 100 years old is fairly weak because my reaction was "...it seems to work pretty well, so what's the point?" You seem to assume that every conservative will go "Oh no! Public schools in their current form are horrible!", but... nope, sorry. :/ I'm not saying public schools are Heaven on Earth, but to me, this item looks out of place on a list about Liberal History Denials. It would help if you at least explained the alternative: What changed 100 years ago?

And if I'm not ''completely'' mistaken, liberals don't deny that chivalry was a big thing here (conversely, I never noticed conservatives pointing out that chivalry was customary throughout history) - it just happened to be a big thing in several other countries, too, so I don't see the need to go out of my way to point it out. It's sort of a given. But maybe I'm missing your point. Please enlighten me, I'm always open for new ideas!

Lastly, the "American Indians vs. Asians" thing... really needs a source. Who says they're "too different", for example? And on what basis? This sounds like a fairly complex evolution issue, so it ''really'' needs some background.

I'm fairly new here, and this essay strikes me as a collection of "inside jokes" (not in the "funny" sense, but in the "This will make little sense unless you also read my other fifty essays about these things" sense). So I would appreciate some expansion of these points. --[[User:DirkB|DirkB]] 19:47, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

: As to your first point, there's no denying a correlation between the separation of church and state and slavery, though [[liberals]] will refuse to admit it. I've updated our Rhode Island entry to reflect that this tiny state controlled 60-90% of the African slave trade after the Revolution.

: Your other points are not any more open-minded. Public schools in their current form is less than 100 years old. It's a fact. The fact has significance. Admit it and teach it. If you think critical analysis of the results of this less-than-100-year experience is inappropriate, then welcome to the liberal mindset.

: Chivalry is not taught as part of history. It should be. Your view is unclear.

: American Indians are different from Asians in almost every significant way. Blood type. Interests. Every other measure you can think of. Deny it and join the liberal denial about history.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:06, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

I have a few questions about these. I'll address them one by one for simplicity.
# Can one say for sure they are too different for one to have descended from the other? YEC theory postulates that everyone is descended from two people. Obviously major changes in such groups have occurred over the years, and very different groups must have common ancestry.
#Rhode Island was the biggest importer of slaves? That's news to me. Overall, I think you'll find Virginia, Georgia, and the Carolinas imported more slaves than Rhode Island ever did. I know you don't care for Wikipedia, but, for lack of a more convenient source, if you look at their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_America Slavery in America] article, you'll see he highest slave population for any year in RI was less than a thousand, while in Virginia it at one point reached nearly half a million.
#Chivalry, in its most literal sense, dealt with etiquette among the gentry and nobility. America does not have a nobility, has never had knighthood, and has not had such a code. In its less formal sense: etiquette rules in general, manners, politeness (especially towards women), I don't think anyone denies its presence.
#As for the age of the public school system, I'm not sure if its denied; I just wonder the significance. If you're saying it's not adequately tried and true, well, I have to wonder, what is the alternative? Homeschooling is not an option for most people. Even when one parent can stay home with the child for 18 years, how competent will any one person be at teaching multiple subjects at an advanced level? I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but I couldn't teach most classes at a high school level. If I ever had a special needs child I wouldn't know where to begin. It seems to me there are 4 choices: public school, private school, home school, or no school. The last should not be an option, the middle two aren't available to everyone, so that just leaves public school. While its far from perfect, I think efforts should go towards improvement rather than dismissal.
Well, that's my thought. I hope you'll take the time to reply. Thanks. [[User:Sanders|Sanders]] 20:43, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::(Edit Conflict with Sanders, so some points might overlap)
::Andy, I believe you missed ''all'' of my points and simply replied by repeating your claims. But maybe it's my fault for not being clear enough. Paraphrasing Sun Tzu: "If words of question are not clear and distinct, if requests are not thoroughly understood, then the initial poster is to blame." So here we go again, more to the point (I hope):
::#"There's no denying it" is a very bad reply to a request for sourcing and explanation. If it's so obvious and undeniable, then you can surely produce at least a single source that explains (instead of just asserting) it. Or, since you arrived at that conclusion, you can surely explain it yourself. You're a teacher - would you tell your student that "there's no denying it" if they asked you "Could you explain how Rhode Island's position as #1 slave importer was a result of the church/state separation?"? I hope not.
::#I didn't doubt that "public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old". My questions were how things had been 100 years ago and what the point of this claim is. You don't even say what the results are, but you imply that I disfavor critical analysis of such results. In fact, that's why I repeatedly called for expansion of your points. I know you value conciseness, but in its current form, this essay only teases and hints, but fails to deliver. Which is why I made my initial comment in the first place (along with notes saying just that).
::#Chivalry... I really don't get why you want to stress it in a single country when it was widely spread. Unless your point is that it should be pointed out also for the other countries. I could agree with that. But either way, this strikes me as pointless. Also, your claim that it's not taught is weak: My History teacher pointed out that it was followed in the US and other countries as a basic concept, along with a brief primer about its roots. But from what I remember, it's more of a social issue and less of a distinct historic one in terms of impact (and even less of a distinct US History one), so I currently don't see the need for such emphasis. But I repeat: I'm willing to listen if you explain it. I'm open for new things. But simply repeating your short claims without any sort of source or background won't help.
::#A great response. I ask for background, a source and an expansion, and you basically reply with "Almost everything is different! If you deny this, then you're a Liberal History Denier!" Though I admit that the "Their interests are different!" bit cracked me up. I always like a teacher with humor. I can see it now. "Asians like Mahjong. American Indians didn't. Hah-ha!" :P Seriously, though, you're making a veeeeery strong claim here that deeply dips into evolutionary biology and ethnology, so in the interest of all your readers, I ask for a source.
::I hope this sums up my issues in a more clear way. I'm happy you replied, but I would be even happier if you actually replied to my questions/requests. :) --[[User:DirkB|DirkB]] 20:57, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::: DirkB, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, let me try again:
::: Point 1: religion teaches that slavery is wrong. Separating church and state means separating "slavery is wrong" from "state". The result is legalized slavery. Got it now? That's why Rhode Island imported up to 90% of the slaves. Don't continue to pretend you don't get the connection. Of course liberals are going to deny the connection exists, and perhaps so will you.
::: Point 2: there's no question here requiring a response. This is a fact that should be taught and discussed. But liberals won't.
::: Point 3: if you think your history teacher taught you about chivalry in colonial America, then please repeat that for our benefit here. I doubt you heard much about it.
::: Point 4: I said the blood types (and virtually everything else) is different between American Indians and Asians. You respond with silliness. You have free will to deny the truth. I'm interested in the truth and that's where you'll find me.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:37, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

(undent) Aschlafly, I assume that the Asian/Native American theory is taught because it is the consensus generally agreed upon by the experts. If it is so obviously wrong, what do you suggest should be taught in its place? [[User:KimEide|KimEide]] 11:07, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I am curious about what is meant by "blood types". After all, all humans share the same blood types or groups (if it refers to A, B, O, AB). Or is it a reference to DNA? --[[User:JessicaT|KotomiT]][[User talk:JessicaT|''Hajimemashite!'']] 12:40, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

On the Rhode Is. slavery question, I think this may be Andy's reference:

''Rhode Island, of course, was among the most active Northern colonies in importing slaves. Between 1709 and 1807, Rhode Island merchants sponsored at least 934 slaving voyages to the coast of Africa and carried an estimated 106,544 slaves to the New World. From 1732-64, Rhode Islanders sent annually 18 ships, bearing 1,800 hogsheads of rum, to Africa to trade for slaves, earning £40,000 annually. Newport, the colony's leading slave port, took an estimated 59,070 slaves to America before the Revolution. Bristol and Providence also prospered from it. In the years after the Revolution, Rhode Island merchants controlled between 60 and 90 percent of the American trade in African slaves.
http://www.slavenorth.com/rhodeisland.htm'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:09, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

==A bulleted list...==
A bullet list doesn't quite make it as an essay. While I'd like to think the author will be making additions and fleshing out his arguments, other [[Essay:5 Questions to Ask an Anti-Conservative|"essays"]] [[Essay:10 Ways Liberals Create Atheists|similarly]] are nothing more than [[Essay:Most Influential Persons|baldfaced assertions]] with little or no [[Essay:Electoral College|actual]] [[Essay:Conservatism Essential to Religion|substance]] or [[Essay:Greatest Mysteries of American History|well thought-out]] [[Essay:Hillary's Strategy to Win|arguments]]. Most seem nothing more than mere lists of things to be against, to link to internal articles (or worse other "essays"). <s>Good luck defending your lists Aschlafly, for without an inkling as to what thoughts may be behind your spate of "essays", readers will likely come to the conclusion that the author of such drivel cannot be a vital, energetic thinker but an intellectually lazy and shallow person who cannot put across a cogent argument and satisfies his impotent rage with lists of "bad thoughts".</s> [[User talk:MargeryCampbell|Marge]] 15:40, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
===NOTE===
The above was written by me, Christopher Campbell using my mother's account here. She only found out that I was using her account shen she tried to edit later on and found that she could not due to being blocked. At first she thought someone on the internet "hacked" her account and while it was tempting to let her believe this I finally fessed up to making the edit. 
My Mother will not let me have any internet accounts of my own that she hasn't personally set up and monitor. Nor will she let me have an account here at Conservapedia, (which is why I was forced to use her account). She said that the above proves that I am not ready to edit responsibly, showing (as it does) little regard for the feelings of Mr Schlafly and his efforts to make Conservapedia the best it can be.

'''I therefore publicly apologize to you Mr Schlafly for the great wrong I have done, "speaking" rashly and denigrating your encyclopedia without care as to you, your administrators and the other fine editors who are attempting to make Conservapedia a resource we all can be proud of.'''

Christopher Campbell 16:15, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
(EDT)

:::Well I think that (for one so young) it was an excellent, if somewhat abrasive critique. It is, however, best to critique the work and ideas not the man: drop the "drivel", "intellectually lazy" and "shallow" comments next time. --[[User:Toffeeman|Toffeeman]] 10:35, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Dark Ages ==

Bullet point 7: "The so-called Dark Ages saw a great revolution in science and learning, brought about by the spread of Christianity throughout Europe and the establishment of networks of monastic 'universities'."

The first phrase is correct, but the rest isn't. The revolution in learning took place in Muslim countries in particular, as well as India and China although the latter two areas did not influence Europe directly until the late 13th century. Europe contributed very little original scholarship indeed for nearly six centuries. A list of notable scholars in Europe in the Dark Ages (by which I assume you mean from the end of the Western Empire in 476 to the early 11th century) would include Isidore of Seville, the great encyclopaedist (d.636), Bede, the historian (d.735), and Alcuin, the theologian and polymath (d.804). There may be a few others but these are probably the only three who stand comparison with the much large number of eminent Muslim scholars of that half-millennium (and even Alcuin would be doubtful in that regard). Europe was very much an intellectual backwater until Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II from 999) brought Arab learning from Cordoba to Christian Europe.

Places like Seville around 600, Jarrow around 700 and Charlemagne's court at Aachen around 800 were centres of scholarship (qv Isidore, Bede and Alcuin respectively) but cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as universities. The concept of a university as an educational institution which teaches and awards degrees in a wide range of subjects originated in the Muslim world. Those at Fez and Cairo, built in what Europeans call the Dark Ages, are still very much active. The establishment of the earliest universities in Christian Europe, e.g. Bologna, was clearly inspired by the success of universities in Muslim Europe (i.e. Sicily and Spain).

Bottom line: this bullet point should be deleted. [[User:WaZi|WaZi]] 15:47, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

:You are incorrect in your interpretation. A study of Bede's life would show that Jarrow did not stand in isolation, but was part of a network of monastic 'universities' - and the term is used advisedly - that extended across [[Christendom]]. The emphasis in modern historical studies on [[Islamic]] scholarship is based upon a prevalent self-hating Liberal ideology that is unable to credit [[Christianity]] with any positive achievements, and retrospectively adorns the current enemy of modern democratic values with laurels. This is not top decry medieval Islamic scholarship, which had much of merit, but to rescue Christian science and scholarship from its current, politially-motivated neglect. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 15:53, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

::1. It sounds as though you need to do some reading about early mediaeval scholarship! Isidore certainly influenced Muslim scholars in Spain but, Bede apart, no Christian scholar from the mid-7th to early 11th century made an original contribution to scholarship comparable to those of Muslims such as Avicenna and Averroes or Jews such as Moses Maimonides.
::2. I don't understand your point about "the current enemy of modern democratic values". How does that relate to Islam in general? [[User:WaZi|WaZi]] 16:56, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

:::WaZi is correct. I've deleted this statement. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:32, 10 February 2009 (EST)

==Conservative denials about history==
If liberals were to write their own version of this, it would probably accuse conservatives of lying about exactly the same subjects. Wouldn't it be better to make a serious historical claim, with references to academic analysis, verifiable sources, and such respectable things? It would certinly be better than just declaring that liberals are lying with a one-sentence claim and no backing evidence, even if they are. It makes conservapedia look stupid. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 14:40, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

== Misnamed ==

I always thought that it was called the "guilded age" because there was so much money and prosperity; everything was figuratively gold-coated (gilded). I'm confused why this age is misnamed. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:15, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

==Status==
''That contributions to history are determined more by status than by effort or Providence. This bias is a form of status worship.'' I'm confused. Isn't it liberals who are always being accused of insisting that the contributions of minorities and women be added to textbooks and courses, even if that displaces learning about white men with more status whose contributions may have been more significant? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:10, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

: "Status" is not the same as "contributions". Often they are opposites. The comment here is about the increasing focus of history books on status, such as who held public office or who won an award, rather than on contributions such as Thomas Edison's works. This issue has nothing to do with race.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:48, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

::Is there any evidence that history books once had less focus on "status" than they do now? [[User:Corry|Corry]] 21:27, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

::: My personal experience as a teacher of over 6 years, and as a student. There is more focus today on who held what position, rather than who accomplished what. I welcome anyone who has old textbooks to see how much more attention was paid to folks like Thomas Edison in the past.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:34, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

== Amerindians & Asians ==

The statement that American Indians are too different from East Asians to have been descended from them is incorrect. Several genetic studies using variation in DNA sequences have shown that American Indians are more closely related to East Asians than to any other group. E.g. see Risch et al (2003) in ''Genome Biology'' 3:1−12. [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:38:49Z

FredFerguson: /* Specific truths that history books deny */ Statement about American Indians & Asians incorrect; deletect

Here are [[liberal]] denials about history, with the result that virtually no textbooks teach them.

== General denials ==

The following truths about history are typically denied by liberal history textbooks:

#That "Yankee ingenuity" (American inventions) far surpassed the rest of the world, and brought great wealth to it
#That military battles are an essential part of history, and of preserving freedom.
#That there were valid reasons for past opposition to immigration which had nothing to do with racism; immigration did not enable the North to beat the South.
#That unions caused great harm, including senseless violence and lost jobs.
#That hard work was the key to the success of many Americans.
#That most great Americans, from Abraham Lincoln to Thomas Edison, were homeschooled.
#That [[Abraham Lincoln]]'s [[faith]] grew while he was President.
#That [[Benjamin Franklin]] abandoned the [[Deism]] of his youth later in his life.
#That [[Thomas Jefferson]]'s religious beliefs were not representative of the other [[Founding Fathers]].
#That [[Rhode Island]] and [[Thomas Jefferson]], and their view of a "separation of church and state," had no role in the formation of the [[Constitution]].
#That there were [[conservative]] Presidents before [[Ronald Reagan]], such as [[George Washington]], [[James Monroe]] and [[Grover Cleveland]].
#That "anti-imperialism" movements against the United States were really communist or Muslim movements against Christianity, as in denying the Islamic basis for the Philippine insurgency around 1900.

== General bias ==

#Standard textbooks mislead students into thinking that contributions to history were somehow based more on status than by effort or Providence. This bias is a form of [[Essay:Status Worship|status worship]].
#Standard textbooks emphasize material things (like race, gender, wealth, scarcity) at the expense of the more important role played by ideas and "the power of the pen."
#Standard textbooks overemphasize the significance of popularity.
#Standard textbooks mislead students into thinking that presidential elections (which are usually just determined by the economic cycle) are more significant than than warranted.
#Standard textbooks ignore or deceive students about the fact that most great contributions to western society have been made by conservative Christians.
#Standard textbooks portray all presidents have being comparable in effectiveness and accomplishment, when in fact some were successful and some were failures.

== Specific truths that history books deny ==

#[[Rhode Island]] was the only state to separate church and state, and as a result it became the biggest importer of slaves.<ref>"The largest slave trading ports in America were located in Rhode Island and soon rivaled those of Liverpool. The wealth and economy of New England was based solely on slave trading and exporting rum; and the southern most colonies were NOT part of that odious slave trade."[http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/realslavetraders.htm]</ref>
#[[Thomas Jefferson]] was not as successful or important as liberals claim;<ref>For example, Jefferson was given a wealthy estate but died in substantial debt.</ref> he failed personally and as president, and little in the Declaration of Independence is attributable to him.
#[[Chivalry]] was customary throughout most of American history.
#The greatest corruption in government during the Grant Administration was by the Democratic-controlled "[[Tammany Hall]]."
#The misnamed "[[Gilded Age]]" generated tremendous prosperity for the world, thanks to an absence of stifling regulation.
#[[Public school]] education in its current form in the U.S.A. is less than 100 years old.
#[[Atheist]] materialism lay behind the genocidal crimes of the [[Nazi]]s
#[[Martin Luther King]] was a Republican who preached Conservative values.
#[[Lenin]] was a ruthless and violent dictator who oppressed the people of the [[Soviet Union]] as thoroughly as [[Stalin]].
#[[Nazism]], with its insistence on the collective, was a [[left-wing]] doctrine.
#The United States Immigration Service ran [[Ellis Island]] as a harsh, unwelcoming and discriminatory institution
(add more)

== References ==

<references/>

[[Category:United States History Essays]]

Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:34:17Z

FredFerguson: /* Specific truths that history books deny */ Dark Ages deleted

Here are [[liberal]] denials about history, with the result that virtually no textbooks teach them.

== General denials ==

The following truths about history are typically denied by liberal history textbooks:

#That "Yankee ingenuity" (American inventions) far surpassed the rest of the world, and brought great wealth to it
#That military battles are an essential part of history, and of preserving freedom.
#That there were valid reasons for past opposition to immigration which had nothing to do with racism; immigration did not enable the North to beat the South.
#That unions caused great harm, including senseless violence and lost jobs.
#That hard work was the key to the success of many Americans.
#That most great Americans, from Abraham Lincoln to Thomas Edison, were homeschooled.
#That [[Abraham Lincoln]]'s [[faith]] grew while he was President.
#That [[Benjamin Franklin]] abandoned the [[Deism]] of his youth later in his life.
#That [[Thomas Jefferson]]'s religious beliefs were not representative of the other [[Founding Fathers]].
#That [[Rhode Island]] and [[Thomas Jefferson]], and their view of a "separation of church and state," had no role in the formation of the [[Constitution]].
#That there were [[conservative]] Presidents before [[Ronald Reagan]], such as [[George Washington]], [[James Monroe]] and [[Grover Cleveland]].
#That "anti-imperialism" movements against the United States were really communist or Muslim movements against Christianity, as in denying the Islamic basis for the Philippine insurgency around 1900.

== General bias ==

#Standard textbooks mislead students into thinking that contributions to history were somehow based more on status than by effort or Providence. This bias is a form of [[Essay:Status Worship|status worship]].
#Standard textbooks emphasize material things (like race, gender, wealth, scarcity) at the expense of the more important role played by ideas and "the power of the pen."
#Standard textbooks overemphasize the significance of popularity.
#Standard textbooks mislead students into thinking that presidential elections (which are usually just determined by the economic cycle) are more significant than than warranted.
#Standard textbooks ignore or deceive students about the fact that most great contributions to western society have been made by conservative Christians.
#Standard textbooks portray all presidents have being comparable in effectiveness and accomplishment, when in fact some were successful and some were failures.

== Specific truths that history books deny ==

#[[American Indians]] are too different from Asians to have descended directly from them.
#[[Rhode Island]] was the only state to separate church and state, and as a result it became the biggest importer of slaves.<ref>"The largest slave trading ports in America were located in Rhode Island and soon rivaled those of Liverpool. The wealth and economy of New England was based solely on slave trading and exporting rum; and the southern most colonies were NOT part of that odious slave trade."[http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/realslavetraders.htm]</ref>
#[[Thomas Jefferson]] was not as successful or important as liberals claim;<ref>For example, Jefferson was given a wealthy estate but died in substantial debt.</ref> he failed personally and as president, and little in the Declaration of Independence is attributable to him.
#[[Chivalry]] was customary throughout most of American history.
#The greatest corruption in government during the Grant Administration was by the Democratic-controlled "[[Tammany Hall]]."
#The misnamed "[[Gilded Age]]" generated tremendous prosperity for the world, thanks to an absence of stifling regulation.
#[[Public school]] education in its current form in the U.S.A. is less than 100 years old.
#[[Atheist]] materialism lay behind the genocidal crimes of the [[Nazi]]s
#[[Martin Luther King]] was a Republican who preached Conservative values.
#[[Lenin]] was a ruthless and violent dictator who oppressed the people of the [[Soviet Union]] as thoroughly as [[Stalin]].
#[[Nazism]], with its insistence on the collective, was a [[left-wing]] doctrine.
#The United States Immigration Service ran [[Ellis Island]] as a harsh, unwelcoming and discriminatory institution
(add more)

== References ==

<references/>

[[Category:United States History Essays]]

Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:33:28Z

FredFerguson: /* Specific truths that history books deny */ Public education: specific to USA

Here are [[liberal]] denials about history, with the result that virtually no textbooks teach them.

== General denials ==

The following truths about history are typically denied by liberal history textbooks:

#That "Yankee ingenuity" (American inventions) far surpassed the rest of the world, and brought great wealth to it
#That military battles are an essential part of history, and of preserving freedom.
#That there were valid reasons for past opposition to immigration which had nothing to do with racism; immigration did not enable the North to beat the South.
#That unions caused great harm, including senseless violence and lost jobs.
#That hard work was the key to the success of many Americans.
#That most great Americans, from Abraham Lincoln to Thomas Edison, were homeschooled.
#That [[Abraham Lincoln]]'s [[faith]] grew while he was President.
#That [[Benjamin Franklin]] abandoned the [[Deism]] of his youth later in his life.
#That [[Thomas Jefferson]]'s religious beliefs were not representative of the other [[Founding Fathers]].
#That [[Rhode Island]] and [[Thomas Jefferson]], and their view of a "separation of church and state," had no role in the formation of the [[Constitution]].
#That there were [[conservative]] Presidents before [[Ronald Reagan]], such as [[George Washington]], [[James Monroe]] and [[Grover Cleveland]].
#That "anti-imperialism" movements against the United States were really communist or Muslim movements against Christianity, as in denying the Islamic basis for the Philippine insurgency around 1900.

== General bias ==

#Standard textbooks mislead students into thinking that contributions to history were somehow based more on status than by effort or Providence. This bias is a form of [[Essay:Status Worship|status worship]].
#Standard textbooks emphasize material things (like race, gender, wealth, scarcity) at the expense of the more important role played by ideas and "the power of the pen."
#Standard textbooks overemphasize the significance of popularity.
#Standard textbooks mislead students into thinking that presidential elections (which are usually just determined by the economic cycle) are more significant than than warranted.
#Standard textbooks ignore or deceive students about the fact that most great contributions to western society have been made by conservative Christians.
#Standard textbooks portray all presidents have being comparable in effectiveness and accomplishment, when in fact some were successful and some were failures.

== Specific truths that history books deny ==

#[[American Indians]] are too different from Asians to have descended directly from them.
#[[Rhode Island]] was the only state to separate church and state, and as a result it became the biggest importer of slaves.<ref>"The largest slave trading ports in America were located in Rhode Island and soon rivaled those of Liverpool. The wealth and economy of New England was based solely on slave trading and exporting rum; and the southern most colonies were NOT part of that odious slave trade."[http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/realslavetraders.htm]</ref>
#[[Thomas Jefferson]] was not as successful or important as liberals claim;<ref>For example, Jefferson was given a wealthy estate but died in substantial debt.</ref> he failed personally and as president, and little in the Declaration of Independence is attributable to him.
#[[Chivalry]] was customary throughout most of American history.
#The greatest corruption in government during the Grant Administration was by the Democratic-controlled "[[Tammany Hall]]."
#The misnamed "[[Gilded Age]]" generated tremendous prosperity for the world, thanks to an absence of stifling regulation.
#[[Public school]] education in its current form in the U.S.A. is less than 100 years old.
#[[Atheist]] materialism lay behind the genocidal crimes of the [[Nazi]]s
#[[Martin Luther King]] was a Republican who preached Conservative values.
#The so-called [[Dark Ages]] brought a revolution in science and learning from the spread of [[Christianity]] throughout [[Europe]] and the establishment of networks of monastic 'universities'.
#[[Lenin]] was a ruthless and violent dictator who oppressed the people of the [[Soviet Union]] as thoroughly as [[Stalin]].
#[[Nazism]], with its insistence on the collective, was a [[left-wing]] doctrine.
#The United States Immigration Service ran [[Ellis Island]] as a harsh, unwelcoming and discriminatory institution
(add more)

== References ==

<references/>

[[Category:United States History Essays]]

Talk:Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:32:31Z

FredFerguson: /* Dark Ages */

Talk:Essay:Liberal Denials about History

2009-02-11T00:29:36Z

FredFerguson: /* Public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old. */ Scotland: over 400 years old

== Public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old. ==

So is penicillin. That doesn't make it a bad thing. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 18:15, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

: Then why don't liberals admit it about public schools, and question its long-term value (harm)?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:20, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

:Can you provide any sources that show that the majority of liberals deny that the current public education system is less than 100 years old? As a liberal, and being in a fairly liberal community, I have never even heard that this was an issue. --[[User:AndrasK|AndrasK]] 21:03, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::Should this entry not read 'American public schools...', I am not going to comment on American schools, as I know very little about them. However public schools (in the American sense, ie state sponsored and controlled schools) have existed for centuries in other countries. For instance the state school I went to was founded in 1445 --[[User:J00ni|J00ni]] 18:55, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

:::Universal education has been provided from public funds in Scotland since about 1570. England caught up with the Education Act in 1870 and many towns and villages, including the one I live in, have state schools which are much older than that (early 19th century in our case). So as J00ni says, this statement is specific to the USA.
:::In any case, as AliceBG says, so what? [[User:FredFerguson|FredFerguson]] 19:29, 10 February 2009 (EST)

== This essay sparks interest, but... ==

...then we're left with no source or explanation, so the overall impression is a startled shrug. Which ''is'' a pity, so I offer my view in the hope that you could expand it.

For example, the Rhode Island point immediately triggers the question what makes you assume that this single cause (separation of church and state) among the undoubtedly many had the consequence (slave importer). Our entry about Rhode Island currently states that "Rhode Island was the first state to outlaw slavery", so what's to stop somebody from claiming that the separation of church and state caused this, too? Without any explanation or source, both conclusions are equally valid (and shaky).

The point about public school education in its current form being just 100 years old is fairly weak because my reaction was "...it seems to work pretty well, so what's the point?" You seem to assume that every conservative will go "Oh no! Public schools in their current form are horrible!", but... nope, sorry. :/ I'm not saying public schools are Heaven on Earth, but to me, this item looks out of place on a list about Liberal History Denials. It would help if you at least explained the alternative: What changed 100 years ago?

And if I'm not ''completely'' mistaken, liberals don't deny that chivalry was a big thing here (conversely, I never noticed conservatives pointing out that chivalry was customary throughout history) - it just happened to be a big thing in several other countries, too, so I don't see the need to go out of my way to point it out. It's sort of a given. But maybe I'm missing your point. Please enlighten me, I'm always open for new ideas!

Lastly, the "American Indians vs. Asians" thing... really needs a source. Who says they're "too different", for example? And on what basis? This sounds like a fairly complex evolution issue, so it ''really'' needs some background.

I'm fairly new here, and this essay strikes me as a collection of "inside jokes" (not in the "funny" sense, but in the "This will make little sense unless you also read my other fifty essays about these things" sense). So I would appreciate some expansion of these points. --[[User:DirkB|DirkB]] 19:47, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

: As to your first point, there's no denying a correlation between the separation of church and state and slavery, though [[liberals]] will refuse to admit it. I've updated our Rhode Island entry to reflect that this tiny state controlled 60-90% of the African slave trade after the Revolution.

: Your other points are not any more open-minded. Public schools in their current form is less than 100 years old. It's a fact. The fact has significance. Admit it and teach it. If you think critical analysis of the results of this less-than-100-year experience is inappropriate, then welcome to the liberal mindset.

: Chivalry is not taught as part of history. It should be. Your view is unclear.

: American Indians are different from Asians in almost every significant way. Blood type. Interests. Every other measure you can think of. Deny it and join the liberal denial about history.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:06, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

I have a few questions about these. I'll address them one by one for simplicity.
# Can one say for sure they are too different for one to have descended from the other? YEC theory postulates that everyone is descended from two people. Obviously major changes in such groups have occurred over the years, and very different groups must have common ancestry.
#Rhode Island was the biggest importer of slaves? That's news to me. Overall, I think you'll find Virginia, Georgia, and the Carolinas imported more slaves than Rhode Island ever did. I know you don't care for Wikipedia, but, for lack of a more convenient source, if you look at their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_America Slavery in America] article, you'll see he highest slave population for any year in RI was less than a thousand, while in Virginia it at one point reached nearly half a million.
#Chivalry, in its most literal sense, dealt with etiquette among the gentry and nobility. America does not have a nobility, has never had knighthood, and has not had such a code. In its less formal sense: etiquette rules in general, manners, politeness (especially towards women), I don't think anyone denies its presence.
#As for the age of the public school system, I'm not sure if its denied; I just wonder the significance. If you're saying it's not adequately tried and true, well, I have to wonder, what is the alternative? Homeschooling is not an option for most people. Even when one parent can stay home with the child for 18 years, how competent will any one person be at teaching multiple subjects at an advanced level? I consider myself a pretty smart guy, but I couldn't teach most classes at a high school level. If I ever had a special needs child I wouldn't know where to begin. It seems to me there are 4 choices: public school, private school, home school, or no school. The last should not be an option, the middle two aren't available to everyone, so that just leaves public school. While its far from perfect, I think efforts should go towards improvement rather than dismissal.
Well, that's my thought. I hope you'll take the time to reply. Thanks. [[User:Sanders|Sanders]] 20:43, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::(Edit Conflict with Sanders, so some points might overlap)
::Andy, I believe you missed ''all'' of my points and simply replied by repeating your claims. But maybe it's my fault for not being clear enough. Paraphrasing Sun Tzu: "If words of question are not clear and distinct, if requests are not thoroughly understood, then the initial poster is to blame." So here we go again, more to the point (I hope):
::#"There's no denying it" is a very bad reply to a request for sourcing and explanation. If it's so obvious and undeniable, then you can surely produce at least a single source that explains (instead of just asserting) it. Or, since you arrived at that conclusion, you can surely explain it yourself. You're a teacher - would you tell your student that "there's no denying it" if they asked you "Could you explain how Rhode Island's position as #1 slave importer was a result of the church/state separation?"? I hope not.
::#I didn't doubt that "public school education in its current form is less than 100 years old". My questions were how things had been 100 years ago and what the point of this claim is. You don't even say what the results are, but you imply that I disfavor critical analysis of such results. In fact, that's why I repeatedly called for expansion of your points. I know you value conciseness, but in its current form, this essay only teases and hints, but fails to deliver. Which is why I made my initial comment in the first place (along with notes saying just that).
::#Chivalry... I really don't get why you want to stress it in a single country when it was widely spread. Unless your point is that it should be pointed out also for the other countries. I could agree with that. But either way, this strikes me as pointless. Also, your claim that it's not taught is weak: My History teacher pointed out that it was followed in the US and other countries as a basic concept, along with a brief primer about its roots. But from what I remember, it's more of a social issue and less of a distinct historic one in terms of impact (and even less of a distinct US History one), so I currently don't see the need for such emphasis. But I repeat: I'm willing to listen if you explain it. I'm open for new things. But simply repeating your short claims without any sort of source or background won't help.
::#A great response. I ask for background, a source and an expansion, and you basically reply with "Almost everything is different! If you deny this, then you're a Liberal History Denier!" Though I admit that the "Their interests are different!" bit cracked me up. I always like a teacher with humor. I can see it now. "Asians like Mahjong. American Indians didn't. Hah-ha!" :P Seriously, though, you're making a veeeeery strong claim here that deeply dips into evolutionary biology and ethnology, so in the interest of all your readers, I ask for a source.
::I hope this sums up my issues in a more clear way. I'm happy you replied, but I would be even happier if you actually replied to my questions/requests. :) --[[User:DirkB|DirkB]] 20:57, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

::: DirkB, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, let me try again:
::: Point 1: religion teaches that slavery is wrong. Separating church and state means separating "slavery is wrong" from "state". The result is legalized slavery. Got it now? That's why Rhode Island imported up to 90% of the slaves. Don't continue to pretend you don't get the connection. Of course liberals are going to deny the connection exists, and perhaps so will you.
::: Point 2: there's no question here requiring a response. This is a fact that should be taught and discussed. But liberals won't.
::: Point 3: if you think your history teacher taught you about chivalry in colonial America, then please repeat that for our benefit here. I doubt you heard much about it.
::: Point 4: I said the blood types (and virtually everything else) is different between American Indians and Asians. You respond with silliness. You have free will to deny the truth. I'm interested in the truth and that's where you'll find me.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:37, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

(undent) Aschlafly, I assume that the Asian/Native American theory is taught because it is the consensus generally agreed upon by the experts. If it is so obviously wrong, what do you suggest should be taught in its place? [[User:KimEide|KimEide]] 11:07, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

:I am curious about what is meant by "blood types". After all, all humans share the same blood types or groups (if it refers to A, B, O, AB). Or is it a reference to DNA? --[[User:JessicaT|KotomiT]][[User talk:JessicaT|''Hajimemashite!'']] 12:40, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

On the Rhode Is. slavery question, I think this may be Andy's reference:

''Rhode Island, of course, was among the most active Northern colonies in importing slaves. Between 1709 and 1807, Rhode Island merchants sponsored at least 934 slaving voyages to the coast of Africa and carried an estimated 106,544 slaves to the New World. From 1732-64, Rhode Islanders sent annually 18 ships, bearing 1,800 hogsheads of rum, to Africa to trade for slaves, earning £40,000 annually. Newport, the colony's leading slave port, took an estimated 59,070 slaves to America before the Revolution. Bristol and Providence also prospered from it. In the years after the Revolution, Rhode Island merchants controlled between 60 and 90 percent of the American trade in African slaves.
http://www.slavenorth.com/rhodeisland.htm'' [[User:AlanE|AlanE]] 15:09, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

==A bulleted list...==
A bullet list doesn't quite make it as an essay. While I'd like to think the author will be making additions and fleshing out his arguments, other [[Essay:5 Questions to Ask an Anti-Conservative|"essays"]] [[Essay:10 Ways Liberals Create Atheists|similarly]] are nothing more than [[Essay:Most Influential Persons|baldfaced assertions]] with little or no [[Essay:Electoral College|actual]] [[Essay:Conservatism Essential to Religion|substance]] or [[Essay:Greatest Mysteries of American History|well thought-out]] [[Essay:Hillary's Strategy to Win|arguments]]. Most seem nothing more than mere lists of things to be against, to link to internal articles (or worse other "essays"). <s>Good luck defending your lists Aschlafly, for without an inkling as to what thoughts may be behind your spate of "essays", readers will likely come to the conclusion that the author of such drivel cannot be a vital, energetic thinker but an intellectually lazy and shallow person who cannot put across a cogent argument and satisfies his impotent rage with lists of "bad thoughts".</s> [[User talk:MargeryCampbell|Marge]] 15:40, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
===NOTE===
The above was written by me, Christopher Campbell using my mother's account here. She only found out that I was using her account shen she tried to edit later on and found that she could not due to being blocked. At first she thought someone on the internet "hacked" her account and while it was tempting to let her believe this I finally fessed up to making the edit. 
My Mother will not let me have any internet accounts of my own that she hasn't personally set up and monitor. Nor will she let me have an account here at Conservapedia, (which is why I was forced to use her account). She said that the above proves that I am not ready to edit responsibly, showing (as it does) little regard for the feelings of Mr Schlafly and his efforts to make Conservapedia the best it can be.

'''I therefore publicly apologize to you Mr Schlafly for the great wrong I have done, "speaking" rashly and denigrating your encyclopedia without care as to you, your administrators and the other fine editors who are attempting to make Conservapedia a resource we all can be proud of.'''

Christopher Campbell 16:15, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
(EDT)

:::Well I think that (for one so young) it was an excellent, if somewhat abrasive critique. It is, however, best to critique the work and ideas not the man: drop the "drivel", "intellectually lazy" and "shallow" comments next time. --[[User:Toffeeman|Toffeeman]] 10:35, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Dark Ages ==

Bullet point 7: "The so-called Dark Ages saw a great revolution in science and learning, brought about by the spread of Christianity throughout Europe and the establishment of networks of monastic 'universities'."

The first phrase is correct, but the rest isn't. The revolution in learning took place in Muslim countries in particular, as well as India and China although the latter two areas did not influence Europe directly until the late 13th century. Europe contributed very little original scholarship indeed for nearly six centuries. A list of notable scholars in Europe in the Dark Ages (by which I assume you mean from the end of the Western Empire in 476 to the early 11th century) would include Isidore of Seville, the great encyclopaedist (d.636), Bede, the historian (d.735), and Alcuin, the theologian and polymath (d.804). There may be a few others but these are probably the only three who stand comparison with the much large number of eminent Muslim scholars of that half-millennium (and even Alcuin would be doubtful in that regard). Europe was very much an intellectual backwater until Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II from 999) brought Arab learning from Cordoba to Christian Europe.

Places like Seville around 600, Jarrow around 700 and Charlemagne's court at Aachen around 800 were centres of scholarship (qv Isidore, Bede and Alcuin respectively) but cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as universities. The concept of a university as an educational institution which teaches and awards degrees in a wide range of subjects originated in the Muslim world. Those at Fez and Cairo, built in what Europeans call the Dark Ages, are still very much active. The establishment of the earliest universities in Christian Europe, e.g. Bologna, was clearly inspired by the success of universities in Muslim Europe (i.e. Sicily and Spain).

Bottom line: this bullet point should be deleted. [[User:WaZi|WaZi]] 15:47, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

:You are incorrect in your interpretation. A study of Bede's life would show that Jarrow did not stand in isolation, but was part of a network of monastic 'universities' - and the term is used advisedly - that extended across [[Christendom]]. The emphasis in modern historical studies on [[Islamic]] scholarship is based upon a prevalent self-hating Liberal ideology that is unable to credit [[Christianity]] with any positive achievements, and retrospectively adorns the current enemy of modern democratic values with laurels. This is not top decry medieval Islamic scholarship, which had much of merit, but to rescue Christian science and scholarship from its current, politially-motivated neglect. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 15:53, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

::1. It sounds as though you need to do some reading about early mediaeval scholarship! Isidore certainly influenced Muslim scholars in Spain but, Bede apart, no Christian scholar from the mid-7th to early 11th century made an original contribution to scholarship comparable to those of Muslims such as Avicenna and Averroes or Jews such as Moses Maimonides.
::2. I don't understand your point about "the current enemy of modern democratic values". How does that relate to Islam in general? [[User:WaZi|WaZi]] 16:56, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

==Conservative denials about history==
If liberals were to write their own version of this, it would probably accuse conservatives of lying about exactly the same subjects. Wouldn't it be better to make a serious historical claim, with references to academic analysis, verifiable sources, and such respectable things? It would certinly be better than just declaring that liberals are lying with a one-sentence claim and no backing evidence, even if they are. It makes conservapedia look stupid. [[User:NewCrusader|NewCrusader]] 14:40, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

== Misnamed ==

I always thought that it was called the "guilded age" because there was so much money and prosperity; everything was figuratively gold-coated (gilded). I'm confused why this age is misnamed. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:15, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

==Status==
''That contributions to history are determined more by status than by effort or Providence. This bias is a form of status worship.'' I'm confused. Isn't it liberals who are always being accused of insisting that the contributions of minorities and women be added to textbooks and courses, even if that displaces learning about white men with more status whose contributions may have been more significant? --[[User:Hsmom|Hsmom]] 16:10, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

: "Status" is not the same as "contributions". Often they are opposites. The comment here is about the increasing focus of history books on status, such as who held public office or who won an award, rather than on contributions such as Thomas Edison's works. This issue has nothing to do with race.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:48, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

::Is there any evidence that history books once had less focus on "status" than they do now? [[User:Corry|Corry]] 21:27, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

::: My personal experience as a teacher of over 6 years, and as a student. There is more focus today on who held what position, rather than who accomplished what. I welcome anyone who has old textbooks to see how much more attention was paid to folks like Thomas Edison in the past.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:34, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-02-10T22:59:55Z

FredFerguson: /* Dark Ages */ Sci-tech

Richard Cromwell

2009-02-10T02:00:55Z

FredFerguson: Long life

'''Richard Cromwell''' (1626-1712) was the son of [[Oliver Cromwell]] and succeeded him as Lord Protector of England when he died in 1658 but was displaced by the restoration of the monarchy in 1660. He was known as "Tumbledown Dick". He has the minor disinction of being the longest-lived of all British sovereigns.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Cromwell, Richard}}

{{Nb_english_monarchs}}

Dark Ages

2009-02-10T01:26:36Z

FredFerguson: Bede not a saint

The "'''Dark Ages'''" is a term used for the time period lasting roughly from AD 450 to 1000. They were the early part of the [[Europe]]an [[Middle Ages]]. ‎In ''False conflict: [[Christianity]] is not only compatible with [[Science]]--it created it'' [[Rodney Stark]] writes:
{{cquote|Recent historical research has debunked the idea of a "Dark Ages" after the "fall" of [[Roman Empire|Rome]]. In fact, this was an era of profound and rapid technological progress, by the end of which Europe had surpassed the rest of the world. Moreover, the so-called "Scientific Revolution" of the sixteenth century was a result of developments begun by religious scholars starting in the eleventh century.<ref name="RS">Stark, Rodney, [http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-3274629/False-conflict-Christianity-is-not.html False conflict: Christianity is not only compatible with Science--it created it.]</ref>}}

Few written documents and buildings of this time remain. From this it has been concluded that little was accomplished culturally or academically. However, how much was actually achieved, but was destroyed during the migration of nations and was not readily rediscovered.

The "Dark Ages" has also been explained as a period of spiritual darkness when the light of true Christianity was nearly snuffed out by the persecution and killing of millions of Christians and withholding of the Bible truths by organized "religion" which had more of a base in paganism than in Bible teachings.<ref name="RS" />

However, this is a false perception of the period. The so-called 'Dark Ages' was also the period when Christianity spread through much of Europe, bringing enlightenment, knowledge and science. New monasteries were established which were the universities of their day, centres of science, learning, medicine and law, able to communicate with each other by well-developed networks, and capable of diffusing knowledhge with remarkable efficiency. The life of the polymath scholar monk [[Bede]] is just one example of the intellectual revolution wrought by the spread of Christianity. Bede lived at [[Jarrow]] in [[Northumbria]] (modern-day north-east [[England]]); he was a theologian, historian and scientist, writing and researching prolifically and communicating with scholars across Europe.

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Medieval History]]

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-02-10T01:23:48Z

FredFerguson: /* Dark Ages */ Not that dark

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-02-10T01:10:50Z

FredFerguson: /* Humor */ Aristophanes

Talk:Essay:Greatest Mysteries of World History

2009-02-10T01:06:29Z

FredFerguson: /* Why did Islam grow so rapidly? */ new section

Oxford

2009-02-09T23:25:01Z

FredFerguson: /* Sport */ Blue

[[Image:Bridge of Sighs.jpg|right|thumb|300px|The Bridge of Sighs, Oxford ''(Photograph by Tom Murphy VII)'']]
'''Oxford''' is the county town of Oxfordshire in [[England]]. Despite a population of a little over 150,000 it includes two Universities and is renowned in the arts and sciences today and historically.

==Geography==

The town is built where the river Cherwell runs into the [[River Thames]] (known as the Isis in Oxford, short for the original Thamesis). The historical centre of the city is orientated around the University of Oxford and its constituent colleges. The city then spreads eastwards across the River Cherwell where more modern residential buildings dominate.

Suburbs of Oxford include Headington (location of [[Oxford Brookes University]]), Cowley (location of the BMW motor works), Iffley, Kennington, Osney, Hinksey, Jericho and Kidlington.

==University==
The University was organised there soon after 1167, perhaps as a result of a migration of students from [[Paris]]. The first colleges were founded in the thirteenth century (University, 1249; Balliol, 1263 and Merton, 1264) and Oxford rose to equal status with the great medieval universities.

Numbering among its scholars the philosopher and scientist [[Roger Bacon]], and [[Sir Thomas More]]. The esteemed writer [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] was an Oxford professor.

The city became a centre of [[Royalism]] in the seventeenth century, becoming the Royalist capital during the English Civil War when King Charles I set up court there. Oxford declined during the eighteen century but was revived in the 1800's, particularly as a result of a renaissance in scientific thought. The University includes the [[Bodleian Library]], the largest university library in the country and second in size overall nationally to the British Library.

==Sport==
In common with most of the [[United Kingdom]], [[soccer]] is the dominant sport in Oxford, most notably the professional club [[Oxford United]].

Other notable clubs include the [[rugby league]] club, [[Oxford Cavaliers]] and the speedway team.

Perhaps the most famous sporting event associated with Oxford, however, is the University Boat race, which has taken place every year for over 100 years, normally in March, between the [[University of Oxford]] (the "Dark Blues") and the [[University of Cambridge]] (the "Light Blues"). It is a rowing race for "eights" and takes place on the [[River Thames]] in [[London]]. The boat race is an occasion for students and alumni of each of the two famous universities to cheer on their team, and there have been many incidents during the race including several occasions when one of the boats has sunk.

==History==
Oxford was a base for Royalist forces ([[Cavaliers]] in the [[English Civil War]]), with King Charles I setting up his court in Christ Church.

[[Category:United Kingdom Cities and Towns]]