Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Netherlands

2012-07-11T01:59:40Z

FrankJohnson:

[[Image:Ed poor grinning.jpg]]
{{Country|
|map=Netherlands rel87.jpg
|map2=Netherlands location.PNG
|flag=Netherlandsflag.gif
|arms=
|capital=Amsterdam
|government=Constitutional monarchy
|language=Dutch
|queen=Beatrix
|president=
|chancellor=
|pm=Mark Rutte
|area=41,526 km² (18,41% water)
|pop=16,515,057
|pop-basis=2009 estimate
|gdp-year=2006 (est)
|gdp-pc=$35,078
|currency=Euro (€) (EUR)
|idd=31
|tld=.nl
}}
The '''Netherlands''' (Dutch: ''Nederland'') is a country in the [[European Union]] in northwestern Europe, north of Belgium and France. It is a part of [[the Kingdom of the Netherlands]]. It is bordered by [[Belgium]] and [[Germany]], and has a total population of 16.5 million (2009). Its system of government is [[constitutional monarchy]]. The country is often referred to as "Holland", this was originally the name of two densely populated provinces of the country (North-Holland and South-Holland), the cities of [[Amsterdam]], [[Rotterdam]] and [[The Hague]] all lie in these provinces that have always been the most influential regions in the Netherlands. The official language is [[Dutch]] and the people are referred to in English as Dutchmen or collectively as the Dutch.

The major ethnic groups in the Netherlands are [[Dutch]] 94%, Surinamese 2%, Asians 2% and others 2%.
==Dike system==
The term "Netherlands" means "low country," and it is a very low-lying country. About a quarter of the land area, containing more than half of the population, is actually below sea level, and would flood if the sea were not held back by a system of [[dike]]s. The Dutch have a saying that "God created the earth, but the Dutch made Holland".

A major breach of the dikes occurred in 1953, killing 1800 people.
To avoid a repeat of the disaster the Dutch began construction of the "Delta Project" to protect the country from future inundations. Begun in 1953 and completed in 2002 the Delta Project is considered a modern wonder of civil engineering. After [[Hurricane Katrina]], a delegation of American engineers was invited by the Dutch government to see how the project works and how its technology can be applied in the United States for low-lying cities like [[New Orleans]].
==Major cities==
[[Amsterdam]], named for the Amstel river, is the largest city, and the capital of the Netherlands. Amsterdam is ringed by an extensive system of concentric canals. The seat of government, however, is located for historical reasons in [[The Hague]] (''Den Haag'').

[[Eindhoven]] is the location of the giant electronics corporation, Philips (full name: Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.), with annual revenue equivalent to about $40 billion. (The U.S. corporation [[General Electric]] has revenues of about $150 billion, but much of it is from non-electronics businesses). The Eindhoven area is known for its high concetration of high-tech industires, which include ASML, the world primary producer of lithography system for the production of semiconductors, and ''Océ'', a leading producer of printers and copiers.

[[Groningen]] is home to many branches of ''KPN'', the former state company of Post, Telegraphy and Telephony. It had its headquarters in Groningen when it was still state run, and move to [[The Hague]] since. ''KPN'' stands for ''Koninklijke PTT Nederland'', or ''Royal PTT Netherlands''. Groningen is also home to ''Gasunie'' (Gasunion), a public-private partnership that exploits the natural gas reseves in the province of Groningen and the adjoint [[North Sea]].

[[File:Jongkind A Windmill near Delft 1857.jpg|thumb|left|[[Johan Barthold Jongkind]], A Windmill near Delft, 1857.]]
Delft is a small town in [[South Holland]], situated between [[Rotterdam]] and [[The Hague]]. It is noted for the blue-and-white Delft pottery, and as the home of the great artist [[Jan Vermeer]].

Arnhem is a city in Gelderland, lying on the north bank of the Lower Rhine river. It was the scene of a major battle during [[Operation Market Garden]] in September 1944, when British and allied paratroop forces captured its strategic road bridge before being overwhelmed by German forces in the area.

Eindhoven is a city of the southern province of Brabant. It is known as a center of technology-related industry, and is the home of the electronics giant Philips, founded there as a light-bulb factory in 1891.
PSV Eindhoven, one of the Netherlands' and Europe's major soccer teams, plays in the Philips Stadion and started life as a company team: PSV stands for ''Philips Sport Vereniging'', 'Philips Sport Union'.
Eindhoven has a population of 210,000.

Leeuwarden ([[Frisian]]: ''Ljouwert'') is the capital of the northern province of Friesland; it was also the home town of the spy [[Mata Hari]] and the artist [[M.C. Escher]].
It has a population of 92,000.

Utrecht is a city of the central province of Utrecht. It is the seat of a bishopric and is a major communications hub and rail center. With a population of 290,000, it is the fourth largest city in the Netherlands.
The city is best known as the site of lengthy peace negotiations to end the [[Wars of Spanish Succession]] in the 18th century. The resulting peace, called the [[Treaty of Utrecht]], was signed in April of 1713.

Hoek van Holland ("Hook of Holland", literally 'corner of Holland') is a port in [[South Holland]], and is administratively part of the city of [[Rotterdam]]. It lies at the outflow of the Nieuwe Waterweg [[canal]] and the [[North Sea]], and is the base for ferry services to [[Harwich]] in eastern [[England]].

==Provinces==

South Holland contains the cities of [[The Hague]] and [[Rotterdam]].

Flevoland is the youngest of the twelve provinces, having the least population (ca. 360,000). It was created in 1986 on two [[polder]]s: just 80 years ago, there was no dry land but the [[Zuidersee]]. Its capital is [[Lelystad]].

Friesland is a coastal province in the north, home to the [[Frisian]] language and people.

Gelderland borders [[Germany]] to the east, and extends north to the [[Ijsselmeer]]. Gelderland includes the major cities of [[Nijmegen]] and [[Arnhem]], as well as the extensive heathland known as the Veluwe, now a national park.

North Brabant is often referred to as ''Brabant'', as there is no ''south Brabant'' in the Netherlands.
The southern part of the former ''duchy of Brabant'' (including the important cities of [[Antwerp]] and [[Louvain]]) now belongs to Belgium. While [[Eindhoven]] is the biggest city in North Brabant, its capital is [['s-Hertogenbosch]].

==Business==
The Netherlands is the home of the Anglo-Dutch oil company [[Royal Dutch Shell]] . Other well known Dutch or partly Dutch multinationals are [[Unilever]], a company owning many household brands, ''ING Group'', a banking group, ''Ahold'', an international chain of supermarkets, ''Reed Elsevier'', a publishing house, ''Nielsen Company'', owner of the [[Yellow Pages]], and ''Randstad Holding'', a company providing [[human resource services]]. The famous ''Dutch East India Company'', which dominated trade in with South-East Asia in the 17th century, is regarded as the first multinational in history.
==Customs==
The Netherlands has long been famous for its production of flowers, and also for a related economic event, the "[[tulip mania]]" of 1636-1637. [[Tulip]]s were traded on stock exchanges, and bid up to fantastic prices by people who understood that the prices were crazy but hoped to sell at a profit to even crazier investors. Many people mortgaged their homes for a single tulip bulb and in one case an entire brewery was exchanged for a few bulbs. As with all [[economic bubble]]s, when bidding began to lag people tried to sell and the bubble burst with disastrous consequences. Since then the Dutch have been renowned for their carefulness with money and have established a significant presence in the banking and financial sectors.

===Drug policies===
The Netherlands is noted for its low-crime rate (although comparable to other western European nations) and [[libertarian]] legislation. Examples are licensed prostitution in designated areas of major cities, such as Amsterdam's Red Light District, the legal soft [[drugs]] sold in the country's many coffee shops, [[abortion]] rights, [[same-sex marriage]]s and [[euthanasia]].

Consuming and carrying (for personal use only) the "soft drugs" ([[marijuana]], [[hashish]] and [[hallucinogenic mushrooms]]) were made legal in the Netherlands in 1976 in a final attempt to stop drug-related crime in the 1970s. Soft drugs can be legally purchased by individuals over 18 in the famed (licensed) coffee shops, that do sell coffee as well, but are prohibited from serving alcohol.
The Dutch policy regarding soft drugs (and previously prostitution) is called "gedoogbeleid" (condonement policy). This means that although certain behavior is officially prohibited by law, a condonement clause prevents law enforcement agencies from prosecuting this behavior. This clause is, legally speaking, not a law and can be reverted much easier than a regular law.

The main reason for this policy is to try to split the market for "soft drugs" from the one for "hard drugs", this to avoid that users "upgrade" from soft to "hard drugs" (the latter are still illegal). So in short, the law tries to prevent citizen's exposure to hard drugs by providing a legal context in which to purchase cannabis. The policy also allows the police to focus on the war on hard drugs and criminal trade, and avoid the exhaustive bureaucratic costs associated with low-profile possession busts. In fact, most major cities in the world have similar non-prosecution policies, but the Dutch one is the only nationwide one.

Growing marijuana and hashish for commercial purposes is still officially illegal (it is legal to own up to four plants per household), causing coffee shop owners to rely on illegal homegrown products. Only two state run companies are exempted from this rule in order to grow marijuana for medicinal purposes. Leftist movements have stated that the government should make its mind up: "either make growing marijuana and hashish legal, or ban soft drugs altogether".

Some argue that the legal status of soft drugs has had no significant adverse effects on Dutch society.{{who}} This is probably due to the fact that it has become a more or less socially accepted drug like alcohol and tobacco, removing the need for dealers and effectively terminating cannabis' status as an anti-establishment symbol, and in effect diminishing its' popularity somewhat amongst youth. Some disagree:
* {{marijuana-passive-Dutch}}

==Queen's Day==

April 30th is known as Queen's Day - the national holiday to mark the official birthday of the monarch. This is actually the birthday of former Queen Juliana (Queen Beatrix's mother) but has been kept as the official holiday because of the better weather (Queen Beatrix's actual birthday is 31 January). Queen's Day is the one day of the year when ordinary Netherlanders are permitted to sell goods on the streets without a license. Consequently the whole country is turned into a gigantic flea market (garage sale). The primary effect of this is that people buy goods they do not want or need, solely in order to sell them the following year. In an act of patriotism, most of the populace wear orange colored clothing (the national color) to identify with the Royal House Of Orange-Nassau.

Those not involved with selling their surplus belongings celebrate the national holiday at outdoors parties in the cities or with fine weather, spend the free day on a terrace of a pub, or cycle in the national ''Fietsen op Dijken'' tour around the nation's dikes.

==Anne Frank==
[[Anne Frank]] was a famous Jewish girl who hid from Nazis in the house of friends in Amsterdam. She wrote a diary which was later published and became a best seller. Her family left Germany in 1933 because of the Nazis, but the Nazis caught up with her and sent her to Belsen death camp where she died before end of war in 1945. Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam is now a popular tourist attraction.

==Society==

[[Same sex marriage]] has been recognized by the Dutch government since 2001.<ref>[http://marriage.about.com/cs/samesexmarriage/a/samesex.htm About.com]</ref> Furthermore, legal [[prostitution]], [[euthanasia]], [[abortion]] and its drug policy (see above) make The Netherlands the most liberal country in the world by most standards. Religion was once the dominant factor in Dutch society and politics, but since the 1970s plays a secondary role in society, with only 9% of the population being [[Protestant]] (2009) and just under 30% are [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholics]]. There is, however, a rising [[Muslim]] population (4%) which has caused social strains. An overall decline in religion can be seen as of 2004. These days The Netherlands are considered one of the least churchgoing countries in Europe.

==History==
* see [[History of the Netherlands]]

== See also ==

*[[Gallery of Flemish and Dutch painting]]
*[[Flemish School of Painting]]
*[[Countries of the world - Gross Domestic Product per capita]]

==Bibliography==
===Guides===
* DK. ''Amsterdam'' (2008) [http://www.amazon.com/Amsterdam-EYEWITNESS-TRAVEL-GUIDE-Publishing/dp/075662441X/ref=pd_bbs_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209443999&sr=8-9 excerpt and text search]
* DK. ''Netherlands'' (2008) [http://www.amazon.com/Holland-Eyewitness-Travel-Guides-Ewart/dp/0789493055/ref=pd_bbs_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209443999&sr=8-8 excerpt and text search]
* ''Lonely Planet the Netherlands'' (2007) [http://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Planet-Netherlands-Travel-Guides/dp/1741042992/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209443999&sr=8-1 excerpt and text search]
* ''Michelin the Green Guide Netherlands'' (2007) [http://www.amazon.com/Michelin-Green-Guide-Netherlands-Guides/dp/2067123319/ref=pd_bbs_sr_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209443999&sr=8-10 excerpt and text search]
===Current conditions===
* Delsen, Lei. ''Exit Polder Model? Socioeconomic Changes in the Netherlands'' (2002) [http://www.questia.com/read/113099417?title=Exit%20Polder%20Model%3f%20%20Socioeconomic%20Changes%20in%20the%20Netherlands online edition]
* Mathijs, Ernest, ed. ''The Cinema of the Low Countries.'' (2004). 268 pp.
* Vuijsje, Herman. ''The Politically Correct Netherlands: Since the 1960s.'' (2000). 244 pp.
* White, Colin, et al. ''The Undutchables: An Observation of the Netherlands, Its Culture And Its Inhabitants'' (2005)
===History surveys===
* Arblaster, Paul. ''A History of the Low Countries.'' (2006). 298 pp.
* Blom, J. C. H. and E. Lamberts, eds. ''History of the Low Countries'' (2006) 504pp [http://www.amazon.com/History-Low-Countries-J-Blom/dp/1845452720/ref=pd_bbs_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209443552&sr=8-8 excerpt and text search]; also [http://www.questia.com/read/1379132?title=History%20of%20the%20Low%20Countries complete edition online]
* Hooker, Mark T. ''The History of Holland'' (1999) 264pp [http://www.amazon.com/History-Holland-Greenwood-Histories-Nations/dp/0313306583/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209805742&sr=1-17 excerpt and text search]
* Israel, Jonathan. ''The Dutch Republic: Its Rise, Greatness, and Fall, 1477-1806'' (1995) a major synthesis; [http://www.questia.com/read/91981119?title=The%20Dutch%20Republic%3a%20Its%20Rise%2c%20Greatness%2c%20and%20Fall%2c%201477-1806 complete online edition]; also [http://www.amazon.com/Dutch-Republic-Greatness-1477-1806-History/dp/0198207344/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209443552&sr=8-2 excerpt and text search]
* Kossmann, E. H. ''The Low Countries 1780-1940'' (1978)
* van Oostrom, Frits, and Hubert Slings. ''A Key to Dutch History'' (2007)
* Pirenne, Henri. ''Belgian Democracy, Its Early History'' (1910, 1915) 250 pp. history of towns in the Low Countries [http://www.questia.com/read/1276323?title=Belgian%20Democracy%2c%20Its%20Early%20History online free]
* Rietbergen, P.J.A.N. ''A Short History of the Netherlands. From Prehistory to the Present Day''. 5th ed. Amersfoort: Bekking, 2002. ISBN 9061094402
* Vlekke, Bernard H. M. ''Evolution of the Dutch Nation'' (1945) 382 pp. [http://www.questia.com/read/82243176?title=Evolution%20of%20the%20Dutch%20Nation online edition]

==Online resources==
* [http://www.iisg.nl/ International Institute of Social History (IISH)]
* [http://www.minbuza.nl/history/en/home History of the Netherlands, introduction from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs]
* [http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/lowcountries/dutchrevolt.html Dutch revolt: maps]

==References==
<references/>

{{European Union}}

[[Category:European Countries]]
[[Category:NATO members]]
[[Category:European History]]
[[Category:Netherlands]]
[[Category:Dutch History]]

Talk:'s-Hertogenbosch

2012-07-11T01:58:45Z

FrankJohnson: /* "leading grammatical bit ('s-) can be distracting to the reader..." */

Should be merged into some other article, such as [[The Netherlands]]. Appears to have been created only because of it's odd spelling: it begins with a punctuation mark. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 14:37, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

:''kind of weird to start an article with a punctuation mark'' well, it's a quirk of the Dutch language: look at [[The Hague]] a.k.a. '' 's Gravenshage'', or the '' 't Hooft operator'' in theoretical physics. But while ''Den Haag'' is the official name of '' 's Gravenshage'', with ''Den Bosch'' and '' 's Hertogenbosch'' it is the other way around.

:So the move is akin to redirecting ''New York'' to ''The Big Apple.

:And ''Den Bosch'' just means ''The Forest'', not ''The Duke's Forest'' - ''Hertog'' / ''Herzog'' is duke. The '' 's'' is the relict of the article indicating the genitive: ''Des Hertogens Bosch''

:On the web-site of 's Hertogenbosch, you won't find the informal name ''Den Bosch'' prominently on display: http://www.s-hertogenbosch.nl/

:[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:58, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

::You want to take charge of our Dutch geography articles? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:21, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

:::That's too big a task (and too desolate a field, I'm afraid). I'm just correcting errors where I find them. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 15:25, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

:*the capital of the province of Noord-Brabant is usually called "Den Bosch," but the full, official name is " 's-Hertogenbosch " (The Duke's Forest.) [http://www.heardutchhere.net/NLPresent.html]
:So if you want to mention the official name, go ahead. (Also, it's more like calling the army's main training college "[[West Point]]", when it has a longer and more official name that is hardly ever used. It's not like calling New York the Big Apple. I live in New York and hardly ever hear that. Why would you say such and odd and untrue thing? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 15:30, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

:*The city's official name is a contraction of the Dutch des Hertogen bosch—"the Duke's forest" (Wikipedia) {{unsigned|Ed Poor}}
::Indeed, 's-Hertogenbosch is a contraction of ''des Hertogen bosch''. I mentioned that above. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 15:53, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

::When someone talks about the ''Big Apple'', everyone knows that ''New York'' is meant. That's neither ''odd'' nor ''untrue''. But this moniker is not the official name of the city, or a generally accepted abbreviation.
::Take a look at the official home-page of 's Hertogenbosch: you won't find ''Den Bosch'' mentioned. Take a look at the Dutch wikipage of [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27s-Hertogenbosch 's Hertogenbosch]: the first section is about the name...
:::''De naam Den Haag is officieel toegestaan. Men ziet die naam op wegwijzers en bij de spoorwegen. Voor Den Bosch ligt dat anders: de enige officiële naam is 's-Hertogenbosch. Ook in andere talen wordt 's-Hertogenbosch met de lange naam aangeduid: Bois-le-Duc in het Frans, Boscoducale in het Italiaans, Bolduque in het Spaans en Herzogenbusch in het Duits. De Latijnse naam is Silva Ducis of Buscum Ducis.''
::That means something like
:::''The name ''Den Haag'' is officially accepted. You find this name on road signs and at railways. This is different for ''Den Bosch'': the only official name is 's-Hertogenbosch. In other languages the long name is also used: Bois-le-Duc in French, Boscoducale in Italian, Bolduque in Spanish en Herzogenbusch in German. The Latin name is Silva Ducis or Buscum Ducis.''
::BTW, the existence of so many translations of the name are an indicator of the historical importance of the city.
::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 15:51, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

:::Supporting AugustO. 's Hertogenbosch is used almost everywhere the official is required, e.g. railway timetables and road signs. But Den Bosch is usually used in informal conversation. [[User:PenelopeP|PenelopeP]] 17:29, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

::::[[St Petersburg]] might be a good parallel. The Russians who live there generally just refer to it as "Peter", or sometimes "Petersburg". But the official name is Saint Petersburg and indeed the Conservapedia article is under that name. It would be confusing to list the article under "Peter"!--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 05:22, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

:::::On the other hand, maybe it's more like [[Hull]]. In full, the town is Kingston upon Hull, but that is rarely used and even [http://www.hullcc.gov.uk the local council's website] just uses Hull. The Conservapedia page is actually entitled [[Kingston upon Hull]], but I think there would be a ''reasonably'' strong case for just using Hull, especially if Den Bosch is kept here.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 05:28, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

==Conversation in Edit Comments==
''error? what error? This is like moving ''The United States'' to ''United States''''

Moving '' 's Hertogenbosch'' to ''Hertogenbosch'' is akin to moving ''The United States of America'' to ''The United States America'' - you are losing the genitive. Moving '' 's Hertogenbosch'' to ''Den Bosch'' is like moving ''''The United States of America'' to ''States''. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 15:57, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

:LOL, touché. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 16:38, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

::Did you mean this: [[touché]]? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 03:24, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

== Article move ==

... could you move this article back to [['s-Hertogenbosch]]? I would have asked you at [[User talk:Ed Poor]], but unfortunately, that page is protected.

[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:26, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

:Didn't you read my objections above? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 13:23, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

::I read your objections. Frankly, I took your last comment (''touché'') as a concession to my objections. Nevertheless, I left the decision to move the article to you, but you really should to it: it's the right thing.

I actually currently live in `s-Hertogenbosch. Both names are commonly used (in writing the Den Bosch variant is more often used because it's just easier to type), but the official name is `s-Hertogenbosch. A lot of people don't care that much either way, but some take it very seriously indeed. There's a whole committee to promote the proper use of the official name. This is why you won't find the informal name listed on any official sources. --[[User:GTac|GTac]] 11:15, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
:Graag bedankt! What are the odds... [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:18, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
::Well, there are more than 140k people living here, so the odds aren't infinitesimal :-). --[[User:GTac|GTac]] 11:37, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Please write about the campaign to promote the official name. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 12:48, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
:What do you want to know about them? They're called the ''Genootschap ter bevordering van het gebruik van de naam 's-Hertogenbosch'' (the society for the promotion of the name 's-Hertogenbosch) and their mission is to promote the proper use of the official name for clarity and for historical reasons. They have [https://www.facebook.com/pages/Genootschap-ter-bevordering-van-het-gebruik-van-de-naam-s-Hertogenbosch/159558774142645 a facebook] and [http://www.s-hertogenboschalstublieft.nl/ a website]. They seem to be a bunch of local guys (big surprise), so not sure what you want to know about them. I don't think they're important enough to put in an article, though they're a good indication on how people are very serious about the proper use and spelling of official names.
:So let me know if you have any more questions or need anything else translated here. To be honest I don't really understand what the problem is here in the first case. It's an obvious fact that the official name is 's-Hertogenbosch, so why not change the article's name? --[[User:GTac|GTac]] 13:45, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

::If the society isn't worth writing about, then I don't suppose their cause is worth bothering with; so we should keep using the page title that's easiest for us Americans. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 22:06, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

::: Hahaha, but that doesn't make any sense. You're going to use the wrong, unofficial name because it's not interesting to write an entire article about a society which promotes the official name? So what if that society '''''didn't exist at all''''', would that mean you'd automatically go for the incorrect names for articles? Maybe you should rename [[United_States_of_America|this article]] to just USA, it's a lot easier to type! Also, as it was set up before the name Den Bosch would redirect to the 's-Hertogenbosch page, so that wouldn't really be too hard to use for Americans. Ed Poor, is there some kind of reason you keep fighting to use the incorrect name? AugustO showed you that the official correct naming is 's-Hertogenbosch, I've confirmed it as a local, I've shown you that there are even people working to promote use of the official proper name, yet you refuse to change it for no other apparent reason than seeming pure stubbornness, which I don't really get.. It's not like this is a debatable issue anywhere else. --[[User:GTac|GTac]] 02:13, 15 June 2012 (EDT)
::::As an American (although I've been living in Europe for several years now), I do not find the official name confusing at all. Out of respect (a conservative value) for other people, other cultures and other languages, I also support moving the article back to 's-Hertogenbosch. Having "Den Bosch" redirect to "'s-Hertogenbosch" is fine and surely required, but also sufficient given that it just an inofficial name. --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 12:08, 15 June 2012 (EDT)

[[User:Ed Poor]], you have read [[User:GTac]]'s comment - as you object to his use of ''stubbornness'' on his [[User talk:GTac|talk page]]. Why not addressing the substance of his comment - and just move [[Den Bosch]] to [['s-Hertogenbosch]] via redirect? Give your American compatriots some credit (''"we should keep using the page title that's easiest for us Americans"''), some may even enjoy the leading apostrophe! [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:52, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
:I didn't call anyone ''stubborn'', I called the behavior of refusing to change the article and refusing to address our arguments without apparent reason to be "seemingly stubborn". Apologies if I had phrased that incorrectly to cause a misunderstanding before. But like AugustO said, let's try and focus on the substance of this issue here and take some action. All this talk is getting rather one-sided. --[[User:GTac|GTac]] 02:49, 17 June 2012 (EDT)

== West Point==
Ed Poor, above you wrote:
:''So if you want to mention the official name, go ahead. (Also, it's more like calling the army's main training college "[[West Point]]", when it has a longer and more official name that is hardly ever used.''
But here at Conservapedia [[West Point]] redirects to [[United States Military Academy]]. And though their web-site uses the name ''West Point'', the web-site's address is ''www.usma.edu'' (and not www.wp.edu).

The same should happen with Den Bosch/'s-Hertogenbosch: the unofficial name (Den Bosch) should redirect to the official name ('s-Hertogenbosch). And it's easy to find out the official name: the city has the web-site ''www.s-hertogenbosch.nl'', while ''www.denbosch.nl'' doesn't exist. It's the other way round with [[The Hague]]: www.denhaag.nl exists, while www.s-gravenhage.nl doesn't.

And please keep in mind that - other than for [[The Hague]] there is no traditional English transliteration which would be quite acceptable as an article's title.

Ed Poor, you stated on your talk page: ''But I also believe in correcting my mistakes. '' Please correct this mistake of yours and move this article to [['s-Gravenshage]]. You are now informed about the arguments and it shouldn't be necessary to involve other editors with the right to move pages.

BTW: calling your position mistaken is just a factual assessment of the whole situation, not an attack on your person.

[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 05:43, 17 June 2012 (EDT)
:Sooo, since there apparently are no more objections, shall we just move this? --[[User:GTac|GTac]] 02:12, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

::I'm for moving, but it should be done the right way: using the command <code>move via redirect</code> which only sysops have. That way, the edit history of the article is preserved - which get muddled if we just copy the article from one place to the other.
::I thought to wait that [[User:Ed Poor]] (who is a sysop) sees that his position is untenable and moves the article.
::If this doesn't happen, I'm all for asking another sysop to review the case - perhaps one week after [[User:Ed Poor]]'s last edit on this subject...
::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 04:23, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

== Request for move ==

The article should be moved to [['s-Hertogenbosch]]. The reason for this move are stated above, and no valid counterargument has been made. Indeed, [[User:Ed Poor]], the only advocate for keeping the article at [[Den Bosch]] seemed to have conceded (''touché'') - until he didn't.

For me the whole thing has becoming at litmus-test for Conservapedia: I was ''put on probation'' over this non-issue, at least on other editor was blocked indefinitely. And this over a point which isn't debatable, '' 's-Hertogenbosch'' is the official name of the city, ''Den Bosch'' isn't. There is no conservative or liberal interpretation of this point (as it is the other way round for [[The Hague]]). Is [[User:Ed Poor]] not able to correct his mistake - or at least allow his mistake to be corrected? It's a week since his last edit to this talk-page, so I now ask other sysops to move the article.

[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:54, 22 June 2012 (EDT)
:It's been moved by Aschafly. Thanks Aschafly! -[[User:GTac|GTac]] 10:18, 24 June 2012 (EDT)

== merge ==
A merge seems to be unusual and impractical:
*Conservapedia has many articles on cities, towns and even villages in various countries. Are they all to be merged?
*Ending up with a list of merged towns and some stand-alones ([[Amsterdam]], etc.) looks untidy
*Who decides when an article on a town gets important enough to be recreated? To merge some of the towns into the article of the country is a step which has to be undone later again when the sections grow.
*Editing the article on your home-town is often a starting-point for contributing to an online encyclopedia.
I don't see any compelling official reason for a merge. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 01:31, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
:It just seems like a reaction to that whole name discussion debacle, really. -[[User:GTac|GTac]] 01:48, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
::The proposal to merge this article (and [[Arnhem]], [[Delft]], [[South Holland]] and [[North Brabant]]) with [[Netherlands]] was made on Jun 26, 2012. I'll wait until Jul 3, 2012: a week should be ample time to state a reason for such a merge. If no reason is given, I'll delete the merge-templates on Jul 3, 2012. —[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 04:17, 28 June 2012 (EDT)

== "leading grammatical bit ('s-) can be distracting to the reader..." ==

I'm a reader, I don't find it distracting at all. It's how the name of the town is spelled, right? Why spell it incorrectly for the benefit of people who can't focus enough to read? [[User:JeffreyB|JeffreyB]] 20:58, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
:[[Image:Ed poor grinning.jpg]]