Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Double standard

2008-03-16T13:37:26Z

DHayes: I don't appreciate the implicitly attacking tone, Ed. I care for truth and trustworthy information.

The New York Times published only '''two''' articles about the Pol Pot regime and its mass murders ?????????? Does anybody believe this ??? This statement should be removed.
[[User:Maupiti|Maupiti]] 15:31, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
:Good point. And the claim is so specific that I can't help but wonder where it originated in the first place. --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 15:47, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

::Try not to split the discussion:
::*I wondered where this claim comes from and whether it's true since it's extremely specific and sounds unlikely.

::You can either:
::#Try to refute the claim, if you want to assert that the liberal press is '''not''' using a double standard on communist and authoritarian governments; or,
::#Investigate the claim yourself, if you are interested in the truth about [[liberal media bias]].

::You can help this website more by doing the latter, but that assumes you actually care about (1) what is true and (2) providing trustworthy information to the general public. If you have bias, then this is not a task for you. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 09:27, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

:::I was under the impression that those who make the claim should back them up with sources. I'm sorry, I currently don't have the time or the resources to go through a few years of newspaper archives (is that archive even online?). But you made the claim, so you already did the research, right? Surely it's an easy feat for you to prove your claim since you arrived at the conclusion that the NYT published ''exactly two'' articles about this.
:::I asked you for help because it's a very bold and specific claim that's extremely hard to prove or disprove from scratch. You on the other hand are the guy who put it in, so you either made stuff up or made research that proves your point. Which one is it? --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 09:37, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

Keep up the good work Ed! [[User:Orrelon|Orrelon]] 09:28, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

Strong interaction

2008-03-16T04:03:18Z

DHayes: /* History */ De-linking date

The '''strong interaction''' or '''strong force''' is today understood to represent the [[interaction]]s between [[quark]]s and [[gluon]]s as detailed by the theory of [[quantum chromodynamics]] (QCD). The strong force is the [[fundamental force]] mediated by [[gluons]], acting upon [[quark]]s, [[antiparticle|antiquarks]], and the [[gluon]]s themselves. There is a minority that holds that the strong interaction is the result of direct divine intervention; however, this is viewed as [[pseudoscience|pseudoscientific]] by most mainstream scientists.

Although the strong force only acts upon elementary particles ''directly'', the force is observed between [[hadron]]s as the '''[[nuclear force]]'''. As has been shown by many failed [[free quark]] searches, the elementary particles affected are unobservable directly. This phenomenon is called [[Color confinement|confinement]], a theory which allows only hadrons to be seen.

==History==
Before the 1970s, when [[proton]]s and [[neutron]]s were thought to be [[fundamental particle]]s, the phrase "strong force" was what is today known as the [[nuclear force]] or the '''residual strong force'''. What were being observed were the "residual" effects of the strong force, which act on hadrons, both [[baryon]]s and [[meson]]s. This force was postulated to overcome the [[electromagnetism|electric repulsion]] between protons in the [[atomic nucleus|nucleus]], and for its strength (at short distances) it was dubbed the "strong force". After the discovery of quarks, scientists realized that the force was actually acting upon the quarks and gluons making up the protons, not the protons themselves. For some time after this realization, the older notion was referred to as the '''residual strong force''', and the "new" strong interaction was called '''color force'''.

==Details==

[[Quantum chromodynamics]], a part of the [[standard model]] of particle physics, is a typical [[non-Abelian]] [[gauge theory]] based on a local (gauge) [[symmetry group]] called [[SU(3)]]. All the particles in this theory interact with each other, through the strong force. The strength of the interaction is parametrized by the strong [[coupling constant]]. This strength is, as usual, modified by the gauge [[coupling constant#Charge, color charge, etc|color charge]] of the particle. This really refers to a [[Group-theoretic|group theoretical]] property whose meaning is explained in the article on [[color charge]]. Quarks and gluons are the only fundamental particles which carry non-vanishing color charge, and hence participate in the strong interactions.

==See also==
*[[Weak interaction]], [[electromagnetic interaction]] and [[gravity]]
*[[Standard model]] of [[particle physics]] and its [[standard model (basic details)|field theoretical formulation]].
*[[Quantum field theory]] and [[gauge theory]]
*[[Quantum chromodynamics]] and [[QCD matter|Quark matter]]
*[[Internucleon force]] and [[nuclear physics]]
*[[Coupling constant]]
*[[Binding energy]]

== References==
*[[David J. Griffiths]], 1987. ''Introduction to Elementary Particles''. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 0-471-60386-4
*Richard Morris, 2003. ''The Last Sorcerers: The Path from Alchemy to the Periodic Table''. Washington DC: Joseph Henry Press. ISBN 0-309-50593-3
*''Modern Elementary Particle Physics'', Gordon L. Kane, 1987.

== External links ==
*[http://35.9.69.219/home/modules/pdf_modules/m280.pdf MISN-0-280: ''The Strong Interaction''] ([[Portable Document Format|PDF]] file) by J.R. Christman for [http://www.physnet.org Project PHYSNET].

*[http://www.odomann.com The theory of longitudinal and transversal rotational momentum] A mathematical theory that unites all physical forces and eliminates the wave/particle duality.
[[category:physics]]

Local Area Network

2008-03-16T03:55:20Z

DHayes: /* History */ De-linking dates

A '''local area network''' ('''LAN''') is a [[computer network]] covering a local area, like a home, office, or group of buildings. Current LANs are most likely to be based on switched [[IEEE 802.3]] [[Ethernet]] running at 10, 100 or 1,000 [[Megabit per second|Mbit/s]] or on [[Wi-Fi]] technology .

The defining characteristics of LANs in contrast to [[Wide area network|WAN]]s (wide area networks) are: their much higher data rates; smaller geographic range; and that they do not require leased telecommunication lines.

==Technical aspects==

Although switched Ethernet is now most common at the [[physical layer|physical]] and [[data link layer|data link]] layers, and [[TCP/IP]] as a [[Communications protocol|protocol]], historically many different options have been used (see below), and some continue to be popular in niche areas. Larger LANs may have redundant links, and [[router]]s or switches capable of using [[spanning tree protocol]] and similar techniques to recover from failed links. LANs may have connections to other LANs via routers and leased lines to create a WAN ([[Wide Area Network]]). Most will also have connections to the large public network known as the [[Internet]], and links to other LANs can be 'tunnelled' across this using [[VPN]] technologies.

==History==

In the days before personal computers, a site might have just one central computer, with users accessing this via [[computer terminal]]s over simple low-speed cabling. Networks such as IBM's SNA ([[Systems Network Architecture]]) were aimed at linking terminals or other mainframes at remote sites over leased lines—hence these were wide area networks.

The first LANs were created in the late 1970s and used to create high-speed links between several large central computers at one site. Of many competing systems created at this time, Ethernet and [[ARCNET]] were the most popular.

The growth of [[CP/M]] and then [[DOS]] based [[personal computer]] meant that a single site began to have dozens or even hundreds of computers. The initial attraction of networking these was generally to share disk space and laser printers, which were both very expensive at the time. There was much enthusiasm for the concept and for several years from about 1983 onward computer industry pundits would regularly declare the coming year to be “[[the year of the LAN]]”.

In reality the concept was marred by proliferation of incompatible [[physical layer]] and network [[Protocol (computing)|protocol]] implementations, and confusion over how best to share resources. Typically each vendor would have their own type of network card, cabling, protocol, and [[network operating system]]. A solution appeared with the advent of [[Novell NetWare]] which gave: (a) even-handed support for the 40 or so competing card/cable types, and (b) a much more sophisticated operating system than most of its competitors. NetWare dominated the personal computer LAN business from early after its introduction in 1983 until the mid 1990s when Microsoft introduced [[Windows NT]] Advanced Server and [[Windows for Workgroups]].

Of the competitors to NetWare, only [[Banyan Vines]] had comparable technical strengths, but Banyan never gained a secure base. [[Microsoft]] and [[3Com]] worked together to create a simple network operating system which formed the base of 3Com's 3+Share, Microsoft's [[LAN Manager]] and IBM's [[LAN Server]]. None of these were particularly successful.

In this same timeframe [[Unix]] [[workstations|computer workstation]] from vendors such as [[Sun Microsystems]], [[Hewlett-Packard]], [[Silicon Graphics]], [[Intergraph]], [[NeXT]] and [[Apollo Computers|Apollo]] were using [[TCP/IP]] based networking. Although this market segment is now much reduced, the technologies developed in this area continue to be influential on the Internet and in both [[Linux]] and Apple [[Mac OS X]] networking, and the TCP/IP protocol has now almost completely replaced [[IPX]], [[AppleTalk]], [[NETBEUI]] and other protocols used by the early PC LANs.

Pine Castle Christian Academy

2008-03-16T03:53:02Z

DHayes: /* Theater department */ Forgot one, apparently

{{Delete Notice}}
'''Pine Castle Christian Academy''' ('''PCCA''') is a small Christian [[private school]] in [[Pine Castle, Florida]], an area that sits on a border between [[Belle Isle, Florida|Belle Isle]] and [[Orlando, Florida]]. The school was founded by Spencer goerler under the name Methodist Country Kindergarten; PCCA has been an K-12 [[academy]] since 1983, when it received its current name. As of Spring 2008, it had 687 students.
==History==
In 1954, PCCA's parent organization, Spencer, founded the school as a ministry exclusively for [[kindergarten|kindergarteners]], then called Methodist Country Kindergarten. The kindergarten became an academy in 1983, when the church opened PCCA to first through sixth grade students. Each year after that, it successively introduced one more grade level, until, in 1990, the first senior class graduated.<ref>[http://www.pccaonline.org/AboutPCCA_History.htm PCCA: History]</ref>

To accommodate its broadened range of students, the Academy constructed the Family Life Center (FLC) in 1985 as its primary campus building, and the Family Life Center in [[2000]] as its elementary and middle school building. The academy also acquired a small facility adjacent to the main campus to house elective classes. [[The Beacon Foundation]], a non-profit group that supports PCCA, and the admissions office are located inside the Beacon House, an early-1900's Florida "[[cracker (pejorative)|cracker]]" style house. Many school functions occur on the adjacent Crawford field or in the Pine Castle United Methodist Church Sanctuary.

During the mid 2000s, PCCA grew: the entire school to over 600 students, about 200 of whom were high schoolers. The academy achieved its first state-level athletic victory in 2006; after three more state titles in the following year, all Pine Castle Christian Academy athletic teams were classified as 2A, except for football, which remained a 1B sport.

==Extracurricular activities==

===Athletics===

Pine Castle Christian Academy's [[American football|football]] team, lead by coach David Langdon, finished its inaugural 2005 football season with an 8-2 record<ref>[http://www.fridaynightfootball.net/Teams/PineCastle/Schedule05.php Friday Night Football 2005 Season]</ref>, although it did not make the play-offs. In the 2006 season, Pine Castle again finished with an 8-2 record<ref>[http://www.fridaynightfootball.net/Teams/PineCastle/Schedule.php Friday Night Football 2006 Season]</ref>, this time winning districts 2006. As of 2008, the Eagles football team was classified as 1B, lower than the Academy's other, 2A, sports; the classification is due to the recentness of the program's inception.

In the 2005 season, Pine Castle Christian Academy began a contest with its rival, The First Academy, called the "Showdown for the Scepter." The competition centers around a wood scepter painted in each school's colors (black, maroon, and white for PCCA; blue, yellow, and white for TFA), and symbolizes the two academies' rivalry. Each year, when the two schools face each other, the winner of that game brings the scepter back to its campus. In 2005, The First Academy won the Showdown; Pine Castle Christian Academy won in 2006.

PCCA has a girls' [[volleyball]] team and, since Spring 2007, a boys' team as well. In 2005, the Pine Castle Christian Academy girls' varsity volleyball team advanced to the Elite Eight and won the District Championship<ref name="pcca">[http://www.pccaonline.org/NEA_Athletics.htm#accomplish PCCA: Athletics]</ref>. In 2007, the girls' team won districts and advanced to the regional semi-fianls, before losing to Orangewood Christian School.

Both girls' and boys' varsity [[basketball]] teams won the Florida state 1A championship in the 2006-07 season. Girls' won with a 38-37 victory over runner-up Malone High School; boys' finished with a 55-46 victory over The Rock. In the 2005-06 season, the boys' varsity basketball team finished 25-4, won Districts, and advanced to the Sweet Sixteen<ref name="pcca">[http://www.pccaonline.org/NEA_Athletics.htm#accomplish PCCA: Athletics]</ref>.

The girls' varsity [[softball]] team, in its 2006 season, won the class 1A Florida State Championship, the first state-level championship won by any PCCA team. In 2007, PCCA repeated its victory as the class 1A Florida softball champion.

PCCA's [[baseball]] program is coached by former professional baseball player, [[Joe Oliver (baseball player)|Joe Oliver]]. In 2007, the Varsity team won the district for the first time.

Pine Castle Christian Academy's boys' [[Association football|soccer]] program finished its last season in 2004; in 2005, it was replaced by the football team.

===Theater department===
Each year, the Pine Castle Christian Academy Theater Department puts on two plays: a drama in the Spring and a comedy in the Fall. Many plays feature a dinner or desert theater. Since Spring of 2006, each play has also had a "Parent Preview Night," which allows relatives of the actors to view a dress rehearsal free of charge.

Pine Castle is also a part of the [[SAK Comedy Lab]] high school [[Improvisation|improv]] league, started in the 2005-06 school year. Students meet once per week in the Fall to practice improv games together, then compete in against other schools in the Spring. PCCA won in the league's first season and took second in the 2006-07 competition.

Although the theater department usually produces pre-existing scripts, PCCA's eighth high school play, ''Welcome to Justice'', was an original play by the academy's drama department head at that time, Dan Buck. The showing of ''Justice'' was a test-run and last chance for revisions of the script, before it went into full production in professional theater.

The first theater director/teacher at Pine Castle was Dan Buck. Later in his time there a second director, Tess Card, was also hired. Both left at the end of the 2006-07 school year, and in Fall 2007, they were replaced by the department's new head, Caroline Burkhard.

List of Plays:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year
! Spring
! Fall
|-
| 2002
| ''Annie Jr.''
| ''(none)''
|-
| 2003
| ''[[All My Sons]]''
| ''[[The Foreigner]]''
|-
| 2004
| ''[[Judgement at Nuremberg]]''
| [[Harvey (play)|''Harvey'']]
|-
| 2005
| ''[[Dial M for Murder|Dial 'M' for Murder]]''
| ''[[God's Favorite]]''
|-
| 2006
| ''Welcome to Justice''
| ''[[See How They Run]]''
|-
| 2007
| ''[[The Last Night of Ballyhoo]]''
| ''[[The Odd Couple]] (female version)"
|-
|2008
| None
|}
;Notes<nowiki>:</nowiki>
The Spring play for 2008 was originally announced to be [[Peter and Wendy|Peter Pan]]. Due to delays in the construction of a new [[auditorium]], the play was replaced with a [[one act play]] and a series of monolouges and dialogues.

===Clubs and organizations===

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Active Groups
|-
| [[Spanish language|Spanish]] Club
|-
| Spencer Club
|-
| gangsters Club
|-
| [[National Honor Society]], Eagle Chapter
|-
| Spanish National Honor Society
|-
| Junior National Honor Society
|-
| Improv Team (with [[SAK Comedy Lab]])
|-
| [[Quill and Scroll]] Society
|-
| Angler's Society (fishing club)
|-
| Culinary Club
|-
| Student Government
|-
| Band
|-
| Bowling Club
|-
| Art Club
|-
! Discontinued
|-
| [[German language|German]] Club
|-
| [[Robotics]] Club
|-
| Book Club
|}

==Notable faculty==
*[[Joe Oliver (baseball player)|Joe Oliver]]

==Notes==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://www.pccaathletics.com Pine Castle Christian Academy's athletic site]
*[http://www.pccaonline.org Pine Castle Christian Academy website]

[[Category:Orange County, Florida]]
[[Category:Private schools in Florida]]
[[Category:High schools in Florida]]
[[Category:Middle schools in Florida]]

Pine Castle Christian Academy

2008-03-16T03:52:36Z

DHayes: De-linking dates, removing sections that merely contained a non-existent template

{{Delete Notice}}
'''Pine Castle Christian Academy''' ('''PCCA''') is a small Christian [[private school]] in [[Pine Castle, Florida]], an area that sits on a border between [[Belle Isle, Florida|Belle Isle]] and [[Orlando, Florida]]. The school was founded by Spencer goerler under the name Methodist Country Kindergarten; PCCA has been an K-12 [[academy]] since 1983, when it received its current name. As of Spring 2008, it had 687 students.
==History==
In 1954, PCCA's parent organization, Spencer, founded the school as a ministry exclusively for [[kindergarten|kindergarteners]], then called Methodist Country Kindergarten. The kindergarten became an academy in 1983, when the church opened PCCA to first through sixth grade students. Each year after that, it successively introduced one more grade level, until, in 1990, the first senior class graduated.<ref>[http://www.pccaonline.org/AboutPCCA_History.htm PCCA: History]</ref>

To accommodate its broadened range of students, the Academy constructed the Family Life Center (FLC) in 1985 as its primary campus building, and the Family Life Center in [[2000]] as its elementary and middle school building. The academy also acquired a small facility adjacent to the main campus to house elective classes. [[The Beacon Foundation]], a non-profit group that supports PCCA, and the admissions office are located inside the Beacon House, an early-1900's Florida "[[cracker (pejorative)|cracker]]" style house. Many school functions occur on the adjacent Crawford field or in the Pine Castle United Methodist Church Sanctuary.

During the mid 2000s, PCCA grew: the entire school to over 600 students, about 200 of whom were high schoolers. The academy achieved its first state-level athletic victory in 2006; after three more state titles in the following year, all Pine Castle Christian Academy athletic teams were classified as 2A, except for football, which remained a 1B sport.

==Extracurricular activities==

===Athletics===

Pine Castle Christian Academy's [[American football|football]] team, lead by coach David Langdon, finished its inaugural 2005 football season with an 8-2 record<ref>[http://www.fridaynightfootball.net/Teams/PineCastle/Schedule05.php Friday Night Football 2005 Season]</ref>, although it did not make the play-offs. In the 2006 season, Pine Castle again finished with an 8-2 record<ref>[http://www.fridaynightfootball.net/Teams/PineCastle/Schedule.php Friday Night Football 2006 Season]</ref>, this time winning districts 2006. As of 2008, the Eagles football team was classified as 1B, lower than the Academy's other, 2A, sports; the classification is due to the recentness of the program's inception.

In the 2005 season, Pine Castle Christian Academy began a contest with its rival, The First Academy, called the "Showdown for the Scepter." The competition centers around a wood scepter painted in each school's colors (black, maroon, and white for PCCA; blue, yellow, and white for TFA), and symbolizes the two academies' rivalry. Each year, when the two schools face each other, the winner of that game brings the scepter back to its campus. In 2005, The First Academy won the Showdown; Pine Castle Christian Academy won in 2006.

PCCA has a girls' [[volleyball]] team and, since Spring 2007, a boys' team as well. In 2005, the Pine Castle Christian Academy girls' varsity volleyball team advanced to the Elite Eight and won the District Championship<ref name="pcca">[http://www.pccaonline.org/NEA_Athletics.htm#accomplish PCCA: Athletics]</ref>. In 2007, the girls' team won districts and advanced to the regional semi-fianls, before losing to Orangewood Christian School.

Both girls' and boys' varsity [[basketball]] teams won the Florida state 1A championship in the 2006-07 season. Girls' won with a 38-37 victory over runner-up Malone High School; boys' finished with a 55-46 victory over The Rock. In the 2005-06 season, the boys' varsity basketball team finished 25-4, won Districts, and advanced to the Sweet Sixteen<ref name="pcca">[http://www.pccaonline.org/NEA_Athletics.htm#accomplish PCCA: Athletics]</ref>.

The girls' varsity [[softball]] team, in its 2006 season, won the class 1A Florida State Championship, the first state-level championship won by any PCCA team. In 2007, PCCA repeated its victory as the class 1A Florida softball champion.

PCCA's [[baseball]] program is coached by former professional baseball player, [[Joe Oliver (baseball player)|Joe Oliver]]. In 2007, the Varsity team won the district for the first time.

Pine Castle Christian Academy's boys' [[Association football|soccer]] program finished its last season in 2004; in 2005, it was replaced by the football team.

===Theater department===
Each year, the Pine Castle Christian Academy Theater Department puts on two plays: a drama in the Spring and a comedy in the Fall. Many plays feature a dinner or desert theater. Since Spring of 2006, each play has also had a "Parent Preview Night," which allows relatives of the actors to view a dress rehearsal free of charge.

Pine Castle is also a part of the [[SAK Comedy Lab]] high school [[Improvisation|improv]] league, started in the 2005-06 school year. Students meet once per week in the Fall to practice improv games together, then compete in against other schools in the Spring. PCCA won in the league's first season and took second in the 2006-07 competition.

Although the theater department usually produces pre-existing scripts, PCCA's eighth high school play, ''Welcome to Justice'', was an original play by the academy's drama department head at that time, Dan Buck. The showing of ''Justice'' was a test-run and last chance for revisions of the script, before it went into full production in professional theater.

The first theater director/teacher at Pine Castle was Dan Buck. Later in his time there a second director, Tess Card, was also hired. Both left at the end of the 2006-07 school year, and in Fall 2007, they were replaced by the department's new head, Caroline Burkhard.

List of Plays:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year
! Spring
! Fall
|-
| 2002
| ''Annie Jr.''
| ''(none)''
|-
| 2003
| ''[[All My Sons]]''
| ''[[The Foreigner]]''
|-
| 2004
| ''[[Judgement at Nuremberg]]''
| [[Harvey (play)|''Harvey'']]
|-
| 2005
| ''[[Dial M for Murder|Dial 'M' for Murder]]''
| ''[[God's Favorite]]''
|-
| 2006
| ''Welcome to Justice''
| ''[[See How They Run]]''
|-
| 2007
| ''[[The Last Night of Ballyhoo]]''
| ''[[The Odd Couple]] (female version)"
|-
|2008
| None{{rf|1|1}}
|}
;Notes<nowiki>:</nowiki>
The Spring play for 2008 was originally announced to be [[Peter and Wendy|Peter Pan]]. Due to delays in the construction of a new [[auditorium]], the play was replaced with a [[one act play]] and a series of monolouges and dialogues.

===Clubs and organizations===

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Active Groups
|-
| [[Spanish language|Spanish]] Club
|-
| Spencer Club
|-
| gangsters Club
|-
| [[National Honor Society]], Eagle Chapter
|-
| Spanish National Honor Society
|-
| Junior National Honor Society
|-
| Improv Team (with [[SAK Comedy Lab]])
|-
| [[Quill and Scroll]] Society
|-
| Angler's Society (fishing club)
|-
| Culinary Club
|-
| Student Government
|-
| Band
|-
| Bowling Club
|-
| Art Club
|-
! Discontinued
|-
| [[German language|German]] Club
|-
| [[Robotics]] Club
|-
| Book Club
|}

==Notable faculty==
*[[Joe Oliver (baseball player)|Joe Oliver]]

==Notes==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://www.pccaathletics.com Pine Castle Christian Academy's athletic site]
*[http://www.pccaonline.org Pine Castle Christian Academy website]

[[Category:Orange County, Florida]]
[[Category:Private schools in Florida]]
[[Category:High schools in Florida]]
[[Category:Middle schools in Florida]]

Ceiling fan

2008-03-16T03:47:41Z

DHayes: De-linking dates. ...why is our Ceiling fan article so much longer than our article on the United States of America?

A '''ceiling fan''' is a device suspended from the ceiling of a room, which employs hub-mounted rotating paddles to circulate air in order to produce a cooling or [[destratification]] effect.

== History ==
The first ceiling fans appeared in the 1860s and 1870s, in the [[United States]]. At that time, they were not powered by any form of [[electric motor]]. Instead, a stream of running [[water]] was used, in conjunction with a [[turbine]], to drive a system of belts which would turn the blades of two-blade fan units. These systems could accommodate several fan units, and so became popular in stores, [[restaurant]]s, and offices. Some of these systems still survive today, and can be seen in parts of the [[southern United States]] where they originally proved useful.

The electrically-powered ceiling fan was invented in 1882 by Philip Diehl (pronounced the same as "deal"). Diehl had engineered the electric motor used in the first Singer [[sewing machine]]s, and in 1882 adapted that motor for use in a ceiling-mounted fan. "The Diehl Electric Fan", as it was known, operated like a common modern-day ceiling fan; each fan had its own self-contained motor unit, eliminating the need for costly and bulky belt systems.<ref>The Fan Book</ref>

Diehl was, almost immediately, up against fierce competition due to the commercial success of the ceiling fan. However, he continued to make improvements to his invention. One such improvement, the "Diehl Electrolier", was a light kit adapted onto the ceiling fan to compensate for any light fixture(s) displaced by the installation of the ceiling fan, and/or to add extra overhead lighting to the room.

By [[World War I]], most ceiling fans were being manufactured with four blades instead of the original two. Besides making fans quieter, this change allowed them to circulate more air, thereby making more efficient use of their motors.

By the 1920s, ceiling fans had become commonplace in the United States, and had started to take hold internationally; however, during the [[Great Depression]], ceiling fans faded out of vogue in the U.S.<ref>The Fan Book</ref> By the end of [[World War II]], ceiling fans had become almost non-existent, and remained that way into the 1950s. Those which remained were considered items of nostalgia. However, the ceiling fan was still very popular in other countries, notably those with warm climates which could not afford high-energy-consuming devices, namely [[air conditioning]].

In the 1960s, some [[Oriental]] manufacturers started exporting their ceiling fans to the [[United States]]. They caught on slowly at first, but found great success during the energy crisis of the late 1970s, since ceiling fans consume far less energy than air conditioning units.

Due to this renewed commercial success, many American manufacturers started to produce (or significantly increase production of) ceiling fans, resulting in a revival of interest in the product. The well-known Casablanca Fan Company was founded in 1974. Other popular American manufacturers at the time included the Hunter Fan Co. (which was then a division of Robbins & Myers, Inc), FASCO (F. A. Smith Co.), [[Emerson Electric]], and Lasko; the latter two were often relabeled and sold by [[Sears-Roebuck]].

During the rest of the 1970s, and through to the late 1980s, ceiling fans remained popular in the American market. Many small American manufacturers, most of them rather short-lived, started making ceiling fans. Throughout the 1980s, the balance of sales between American-made ceiling fans and those imported from [[Oriental]] manufacturers changed dramatically. The high cost of American parts and labor became prohibitive for many consumers (for example, a ''basic'' American-made ceiling fan could cost anywhere from $100 to $250, whereas the cost of the ''fanciest'' imported fans rarely exceeded $85).

Due to the ever-reducing cost of amenities such as [[air conditioning]], ceiling fan sales once again started to decline, beginning in the early- to mid-1990s. With the reduction in sales came a reduction in research and development, as well as features. Once-standard features (such as solid wood blades, built-in [[Potentiometer|variable-speed dials]], high-quality stator/rotor ("stack") motors, and die-cast steel construction) have been largely replaced by cheap, standardized parts.

While a few companies still offer high-quality ceiling fans, the majority of fans sold today consist of: (a) a poorly-ventilated import spinner motor (commonly advertised as a "###x## [[Millimeter|mm]] direct-drive motor"), (b) particle-board or reinforced-paperboard blades with a computer-printed laminate plastic finish, and (c) a stylized decorative motor encasement ("housing") and adornments. All of these fans cost the same approximate amount to produce (between $5 and $45), since the motors and blade materials are all standardized and widely available, and inexpensive [[The Orient|overseas]] labor is used.<ref>http://www.smc.com.hk/financial_inf/fin.html</ref> However, wholesalers and retailers set prices by style, based on current decorating trends, meaning that some fan models can be priced at a 1,000 percent or greater increase over production cost ($50 to $600 retail).<ref>http://www.smc.com.hk/financial_inf/fin.html</ref> This stands in contrast to the 1970s, where production cost was between $60 and $150 for a top-of-the-line American-made fan, yet retail prices were generally $125-$300, making the average [[Markup (business)|markup]] only about 200 percent.

As of 2007, the only ceiling fan still made in America is the [http://www.marleymep.com/develop/Products/DecCeilFan/Gillespie.htm "Gillespie"] model, by Marley Engineered Products of [[Bennettsville, South Carolina|Bennettsville, SC]]. Casablanca Fan Co. has been bought by Hunter Fan Co., and Hunter has shipped production for both lines overseas. [[Emerson Electric]] has also shipped their ceiling fan production overseas, and both Lasko and FASCO no longer manufacture ceiling fans.

==Uses==
Most ceiling fans can be used in two different ways; that is, most fans have a mechanism, commonly an electrical switch, for reversing the direction in which the blades rotate.

In '''summer''', when the fan's direction of rotation is set so that air is blown downward (typically counter-clockwise, when standing under the fan and looking upwards), the breeze created by a ceiling fan speeds the evaporation of sweat on human skin, which is experienced as a cooling effect.

In '''winter''', buildings in colder climates are usually heated. Air naturally stratifies--that is, warmer air rises to the ceiling while cooler air sinks to the floor. A ceiling fan, with its direction of rotation set so that air is drawn upward (typically clockwise), takes cool air from lower levels in the room and pushes it upward towards the ceiling. The warm air, which had naturally risen to the ceiling, is forced out of the way of the incoming cool air; it travels along the ceiling and down the walls, to lower levels where people in the room can feel it; this reverse rotation has the added advantages of not creating the wind-chill effect of the summer operation scheme, and of heating the air slightly by forcing it along the entire surface area of the ceiling which is typically hot due to risen hot air trapped on the other side in the attic.

== Parts of a ceiling fan ==
The key components of a ceiling fan are:

* An [[electric motor|electric '''motor''']] ''(see [[Ceiling fan#Types of ceiling fans|Types of ceiling fans]] below for descriptions)''
* Two to six paddles (called '''"blades"'''); usually made of [[wood]], [[Medium-density fibreboard|MDF]], [[metal]], or [[plastic]]; which mount under, on top of, or on the side of the motor. The majority of residential ceiling fans have either four or five blades, while most industrial ceiling fans have three. However, a very few specialized [[art]] fans (fans made more for artistic appearance than functionality) have other numbers of blades, such as one, or eight or more.

* Metal arms, called '''blade irons''' (alternately '''blade brackets''' or '''flanges'''), which connect the blades to the motor
* A '''mechanism for mounting''' the fan to the ceiling
** Some fans mount using a '''"ball-and-socket"''' system. With this system, there is a metal or plastic hemisphere mounted on the end of the downrod; this hemisphere rests in a ceiling-mounted metal bracket and allows the fan to move freely (which is very useful on vaulted ceilings). Some companies have come up with slight modifications of this design.
** Some fans mount using a '''"J-hook"''' (also known as a '''"claw-hook"''') system. In this system, a metal hook (which comes in a variety of configurations) secures to a ceiling-mounted metal bolt (again, available in a variety of configurations). Usually, there is a rubber bushing inserted between the hook and the bolt as a noise-reduction agent.
** Some fans can be mounted using a '''Low-Ceiling Adapter''', a special kit which must be purchased from the fan's manufacturer. This eliminates the need for a downrod, and is therefore useful in rooms with low ceiling clearance.
** In recent years, it has become increasingly common for a ball-and-socket fan to be designed such that the canopy (ceiling cover piece) can optionally be screwed directly into the top of the motor housing; then the whole fan can be secured directly onto the ceiling mounting bracket. This is known as a '''"close-to-ceiling"''' mount.

Other components, which vary by model and style, can include:

* A '''downrod''', a metal pipe used to suspend the fan from the ceiling. Downrods come in many lengths.
* A decorative encasement for the motor (known as the "'''motor housing'''").
* A '''switch housing''' (also known as a '''"switch cup"'''), a metal cylinder mounted below and in the center of the fan's motor. The switch housing is used to conceal and protect various components, which can include wires, capacitors, and switches; on fans that require oiling, it often conceals the oil reservoir which lubricates the bearings. The switch housing also makes for a convenient place to mount a light kit.
* '''Blade badges''', decorative adornments attached to the visible underside of the blades for the purpose of concealing the screws used to attach the blades to the blade irons.
* Assorted '''switches''' used for turning the fan on and off, adjusting the speed at which the blades rotate, changing the direction in which the blades rotate, and operating any lamps that may be present.
* Lamps
** '''''Uplights''''', which are installed on top of the fan's motor housing and project light up onto the ceiling, for aesthetic reasons (to "create ambiance")
** ''Downlights'', often referred to as a "'''light kit'''", which add ambient light to a room and can be used to replace any ceiling-mounted lamps that were displaced by the installation of a ceiling fan
** Decorative light bulbs mounted inside the motor housing - in this type of setup, the motor housing often has glass panel sections which allow light to shine though.

== Operating a ceiling fan ==
The way in which a fan is operated depends on its manufacturer, style, and the era in which it was made. Operating methods include:

* '''[[Pull switch|Pull-chain]]/pull-cord control.''' This is, by far, the most common method of operation for household fans. This style of fan is equipped with a metal-bead chain or cloth cord which, when pulled, cycles the fan through the operational speed(s) and then back to off. These fans typically have three speeds (high, medium, and low); however, the speed range can be anywhere from one through four.

* '''Variable-speed control.''' During the 1970s and 1980s, fans were often produced with a [[Potentiometer|variable-speed control]]. This was a dial mounted on the fan which, when turned in either direction, infinitely varied the speed at which the blades rotated--similar to a dimmer switch for a light fixture. A few fans substituted a rotary click-type switch for the infinite-speed dial, providing a set number of speeds (usually five).
**Different fan manufacturers used the variable-speed control in different ways:
*** The variable-speed dial controlling the fan entirely; to turn the fan on, the user turns the knob until it clicks out of the "off" position, and can then choose the fan's speed.
*** A pull-chain present along with the variable-speed control; the dial can be set in one place and left there, with the pull-chain serving only to turn the fan on and off. Many of these fans have an option to wire the light kit to this pull-chain in order to control both the fan and the light with one chain. Using this method, the user can have either the fan or light on individually, both on, or both off.
*** "Vari-Low": A pull-chain and variable-speed control are present. Such a fan has two speeds controlled by a pull-chain: high (full power, independent of the position of the variable-speed control), and variable (speed determined by the position of the variable-speed control).

* '''Wall-mounted control.''' Some fans have their control(s) mounted the wall instead of on the fans themselves; such controls and are usually proprietary and/or specialized switches.
** ''Digital control'': With this style of control, all of the fan's functions--on/off status, speed, direction of rotation, and any attached light fixtures--are controlled by a computerized wall control, which typically does not require any special wiring. Instead, it uses the normal house wiring to send coded electrical pulses to the fan, which decodes and acts on them using a built-in set of electronics. This style of control typically has anywhere from three to six speeds.
** ''Choke''. This style of switch takes varying physical forms. The wall control, which contains a resistor of some sort, determines how much power is delivered to the fan and therefore how fast it spins. Older incarnations of this type of control employed an iron-core transformer as their resistor; these controls were typically large, boxy, and surface-mounted on the wall. Those controls had anywhere from four to eight speeds, typically four or five. Newer versions of the choke-style control employ electronic equipment as their resistor; this is much smaller, so the switch is typically mounted in a standard in-wall gang box; these typically have four speeds.

* '''Wireless remote control.''' In recent years, remote controls have become an affordable option for controlling ceiling fans. While some models do employ this as their sole form of operation, it is more common for a person to purchase an after-market kit and install it on an existing fan. The hand-held remote transmits [[infrared]] signals to a receiver unit installed in the fan, which interprets and acts on the signals.

==Bases for comparison==
There are several factors which determine a fan's efficacy and efficiency. Each of these factors can be used as a basis for comparison when deciding between different candidate fans to purchase.

A fan's '''efficacy''' (in other words, its ability to generate airflow) is measured by its [[Cubic feet per minute|CFM]] (Cubic Feet of air moved per Minute) rating. The following factors all have an effect on a fan's CFM rating:
* ''Length of the fan's blades''. The longer a fan's blades are, the larger percentage of a room's air volume upon which the fan will have a relevant impact. This factor is of greater importance in large rooms. The majority of ceiling fans come in one of three sizes (sweep diameter): 36", 42", or 52".
* ''Total surface area of the fan's blades''. The greater a blade's surface area, the more air it is able to move. However, there can be "too much" surface area (refer to ''Blade surface area to air-feed ratio'' below).
* ''Pitch of the fan's blades''. The angle at which the fan's blades are tilted relative to the [[X-axis]] is referred to as the "blade pitch". The steeper (greater) the pitch, the greater the airflow. Since increased pitch also means increased [[Drag (physics)|drag]], only fans with well-made motors can support steep pitches. Cheaply-made fans typically have a pitch between 9 and 13 degrees. A pitch of 15 degrees and upwards is considered very good, with numbers in the 20s being the highest.
* ''Speed of rotation''. The speed at which a fan rotates, measured in [[Revolutions per minute|RPM]] (Revolutions Per Minute), directly correlates to the amount of air moved. Faster rotation equals greater airflow.
* ''Blade surface area to air-feed ratio''. In general, more blade surface area means greater airflow. However, if there is too much blade surface area, there will not be adequate space between the blades for air to be drawn through. Fans which have an unusually large blade surface area, such as fans with decorative palm-leaf-style blades or many fans with six blades, do not have adequate space between the blades for an unrestricted amount of air to be drawn through. This results in reduced airflow. The effect of this ranges from negligible to dramatic, depending on the exact dimensions involved. Contrary to popular belief, more blades typically does ''not'' equal more airflow. Most four-bladed fans move more air than comparable five-bladed fans spinning at the same speed; this is indeed noticeable on five-bladed fans which have an option to install only four of the blades. Also due to this effect, the overwhelmingly vast majority of industrial fans have three blades.
* ''Height of the fan relative to the ceiling''. If a fan is too close to the ceiling, the airflow is restricted; that is, the fan will not be able to draw as much air through its blades as it has the potential to do. For this reason, "hugger"-style fans (those which mount directly to the ceiling without the use of a downrod) are all inherently disadvantaged. The distance that a fan should be mounted from the ceiling is directly correlated with its air-moving potential; no fan should be mounted with its blades closer than 24 inches to the ceiling, however that figure is often far greater with industrial fans. Unfortunately, this is often impossible in household situations due to the fact that a minimum ceiling height of nine feet would be required to meet safety codes ("blades must be mounted a minimum of seven feet from the floor", and 8 or more feet is typically desired).

In addition to all of the aforementioned factors, there are certain other factors which have an effect on a fan's '''''perceived'' efficacy''' (how efficacious an observer experiences a fan as being):
* ''Height of the fan relative to the observer''. The closer the fan is to the observer, the more air movement the observer will feel. A fan mounted close to the ceiling in a high-ceilinged room will have a lower perceived efficacy than if it were mounted closer to the ground.
* ''Tilt of the fan's blades relative to the [[Cartesian coordinate system#In three dimensions|Z-axis]]''. A few fan manufacturers, notably FASCO, constructed their fans such that the blades had an "up-tilt"; that is, they were tilted relative to the Z-axis. While this increased the area of the room over which the fan had a direct effect, thereby increasing the efficacy perceived by persons standing at the edges of the room, it decreased the airflow concentrated immediately under the fan, thereby reducing the efficacy perceived by anyone standing/sitting directly underneath it.
* ''Humidity of the room''. Since a fan creates its cooling effect by speeding the evaporation of moisture (both sweat and ambient humidity) on human skin, its perceived efficacy is directly correlated with the amount of [[humidity]] (moisture) in the room. In dry environments, such as desert climates, a fan has a lesser perceived efficacy than in humid environments; this is especially notable during cold weather, where a humid environment has a pronounced wind-chill effect which is lacking in dry environments.

In terms of '''efficiency''' (in other words, airflow generated versus energy input), the basis for comparison is to divide the fan's [[Cubic feet per minute|CFM]] rating by its input wattage. So, if the fan moves 6630 CFM on its highest speed, and uses 85 watts to do so, its energy efficiency is 78. A consumer can apply that same equation to several candidate fans to objectively compare their energy efficiency.

==Types of ceiling fans==
Many styles of ceiling fans have been developed over the years, in response to several different factors such as growing energy-consumption consciousness and changes in decorating styles. The advent and evolution of electronic technology has also played a major role in ceiling fan development. Following is a list of major ceiling fan styles and their defining characteristics:

* '''Cast-iron ceiling fans'''. Cast-iron ceiling fans account for almost all ceiling fans made from their invention in 1882 through the 1950s. A cast-iron housing encases a very heavy-duty oil-bath motor, usually of the [[Shaded-pole motor|shaded-pole]] variety. These fans must be oiled periodically, usually once or twice per year, since they use an oil-bath system for lubrication. Because these fans are so sturdily built, and due to their utter lack of electronic components, it is not uncommon to see cast-iron fans aged eighty years or more running strong and still in use today.
** The '''Hunter 'Original'''' (manufactured by the Hunter Fan Co., formerly a division of Robbins & Myers, Inc.) is an example of a cast-iron ceiling fan. It has enjoyed the longest production run of any fan in history, dating from 1906 to the present (it is still being manufactured as the "Classic Original", with several spin-off models). The Original employed a [[shaded-pole motor]] from its inception until the late 1980s, at which point it was changed to a [[Electric motors#Permanent split-capacitor motor|permanent split-capacitor]] motor. Though the fan's physical appearance remained unchanged, the motor was further downgraded in 2002 when production was shipped [[The Orient|overseas]]; the motor, though still oil-lubricated, was switched to a "skeletal" design, as discussed below.

* '''Stack-motor ceiling fans'''. In the late 1970s, due to rising energy costs prompted by the [[1979 energy crisis|energy crisis]], [[Emerson Electric Company|Emerson]] invented a new style of electric motor designed specifically for ceiling fans, the "stack" motor. This powerful, energy-efficient motor aided in the comeback of ceiling fans in America, since it was far less expensive to operate than air conditioning. With this design (which consists of a basic [[stator]] and squirrel-cage [[Rotor (electric)|rotor]]), the fan's blades mount to a central hub, known as a '''flywheel'''. The flywheel can be made of either metal or reinforced rubber, and can be mounted either flush with the fan's motor housing (concealed) or prominently below the fan's motor housing (known as a '''"dropped flywheel"'''). Many manufacturers used and/or developed their own stack motors, including (but not limited to) Casablanca, Emerson, FASCO, Hunter, and NuTone. Some manufacturers trademarked their personal incarnation of this motor: for example, Emerson came out with the "K55" and "K63" motors, and Casablanca with the "XLP-2000". One of the earliest stack-motor fans was the Emerson "Universal", a utilitarian fan with a dropped flywheel and blades made of [[fiberglass]] or [[plastic]]. This fan was produced from 1976 through 1983 and, while targeted at commercial settings, also found great success in residential settings. While this motor is not nearly as widely used as in the 1970s and 1980s, it can still be found in certain high-end Casablanca and Emerson fans, and the aforementioned Marley "Gillespie".

One disadvantage of this type of fan is that the flywheel, if it is made from rubber, will degrade over time and eventually fail; this is not dangerous, but it renders the fan inoperable until the flywheel is replaced.

* '''Direct-drive ceiling fans''' employ a motor with a stationary inner core with a shell that revolves around it (commonly called a "spinner" motor); the blades attach to this shell. Direct-drive motors are the least expensive motors to produce, and on the whole are the most prone to failure and noise generation.<ref>The Fan Book</ref> While the very first motors of this type (which debuted in the 1960s) were relatively heavy-duty, the quality of these motors has dropped significantly in recent years. This type of motor has become the standard for today's fans; it has been (and is) used in all [[Home Depot|Hampton Bay]] and [[Lowe's|Harbor Breeze]] ceiling fans, and has become commonly used by all other brands.
** '''Spinner''' fans employ a direct-drive motor and do not have a stationary decorative cover (motor housing). This accounts for most '''industrial-style fans''' (though such fans sometimes have more moderate-quality motors), and some inexpensive residential-style fans (particularly those made overseas).
** '''Spinner-motor fans''', sometimes confusingly (and incorrectly) referred to as "spinners", employ a direct-drive (spinner) motor and ''do'' have a stationary decorative cover (motor housing). "Spinner-motor" fans account for nearly all fans manufactured from the late 1980s to the present, including nearly all fans made overseas.

* '''Skeletal motors''', which are a high-quality subset of direct-drive motors, can be found on some nicer fans. Examples of skeletal motors include Hunter's "AirMax" motor, Casablanca's "XTR200" motor, and the motors made by Lasko for use in their ceiling fans. Skeletal motors differ from regular direct-drive motors in that:
** They have an open ("skeletal") design, which allows for far better ventilation and therefore a longer lifespan. This is in comparison to a regular direct-drive motor's design, in which the motor's inner workings are completely enclosed within a tight metal shell which may or may not have openings for ventilation; when openings are present, they are almost always small to the point of being inadequate.
** They are larger than regular direct-drive motors and, as a result, are more powerful and less prone to burning out.

* '''Friction-drive ceiling fans'''. This short-lived type of ceiling fan was attempted by companies such as Emerson and NuTone in the late 1970s with little success. Its advantage was its tremendously low power consumption, but the fans were unreliable and very noisy, in addition to being grievously underpowered. Friction-drive ceiling fans employ a low-[[torque]] motor that is mounted transversely in relation to the flywheel. A rubber wheel mounted on the end of the motor's shaft drove a hub (via contact friction, hence the name) which, in turn, drove the flywheel. It was a system based on the fact that a low-torque motor spinning quickly can drive a large, heavy device at a slow speed without great energy consumption ''(see [[Gear ratio]])''.

* '''Gear-drive ceiling fans'''. These were similar to (and even less common than) the friction drive models; however, instead of a rubber wheel on the motor shaft using friction to turn the flywheel, a gear on the end of the motor shaft meshed with gear teeth formed into the flywheel, thus rotating it.

* '''Belt-driven ceiling fans'''. As stated earlier in this article, the first ceiling fans used a water-powered system of [[Belt (mechanical)|belts]] to turn the blades of fan units (which consisted of nothing more than blades mounted on a flywheel). For period-themed decor, a few companies (notably Fanimation) have created reproduction belt-drive fan systems. The reproduction systems feature an electric motor as the driving force, in place of the water-powered motor.

==Safety concerns with installation==
A typical ceiling fan weighs between 15 and 35 pounds when fully assembled. While many junction boxes can support that weight while the fan is hanging still, a fan ''in operation'' exerts many additional stresses--notably [[Torsion (mechanics)|torsion]]--on the object from which it is hung; this can cause an improper junction box to fail. For this reason, in the United States the [[National Electric Code]] (document [[NFPA]] 70, Article 314) states that ceiling fans must be supported by an electrical junction box listed for that use. It is a common mistake for homeowners to replace a light fixture with a ceiling fan without upgrading to a proper junction box.

Another concern with installing a ceiling fan relates to the height of the blades relative to the floor. American law states that no fan can be mounted with its blades closer than seven feet from the floor; this often proves, however, to not be high enough. If a person fully extends his or her arms into the air--as sometimes happens during normal tasks such as stretching, changing bedsheets, or recreation--he/she may become seriously injured if there is an operating ceiling fan mounted too close. Also, if one is carrying a ladder, long [[Lumber|wooden board]], [[Pipe (material)|pipe]], or some other long and awkward object, one end may inadvertently enter the path of rotation of a ceiling fan's blades; this can be very dangerous if the fan is operating at the time, and can cause damage to the fan regardless.

==Notes==
<div class="references-small"><references/></div>

==References==
{{cite book |last=Scharff |first=Robert |coauthors=Casablanca Fan Co. |title=The Fan Book |origyear=1983 |publisher=Reston Publishing Co, Inc. |location=Reston, VA 22090 |language=English |isbn=0-8359-1855-6 |pages=128}}

==External links==
{{commons}}
;Fan-interest sites
*[http://www.fancollectors.org Antique Fan Collectors' Association]
*[http://www.vintageceilingfans.com Vintage Ceiling Fans], an online ceiling fan community w/ galleries and forums
*[http://www.fans.dangeroustacos.com/forum/index.php Dangerous Tacos], a second online ceiling fan community w/ galleries and forums
*[http://www.sevillefans.com Seville Fans LLC], a group specializing in vintage ceiling fans and their restoration/maintenance
*[http://www.vintagefans.com Vintage Fans, L.L.C.], a group specializing in antique ceiling fans and their restoration/maintenance
*[http://www.texasceilingfans.com Texas Ceiling Fans], a second group specializing in antique ceiling fans and their restoration/maintenance, complete with a museum

;Major ceiling fan brands
*[http://www.casablancafanco.com Casablanca]
*[http://www.emersonfans.com Emerson]
*[http://www.hunterfan.com Hunter]
*[http://www.craftmade.com Craftmade]
*[http://www.montecarlofans.com Monte Carlo]
*[http://www.regencyfan.com Regency]

;Basic fan installation information
*[http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/153253/how_to_install_a_ceiling_fan_or_change.html How to Install a Ceiling Fan or Change a Light Fixture]

;Manufacturers specializing in art-type fans
*[http://www.fanimation.com Fanimation]
*[http://www.architecturalfans.com Woolen Mill Fan Company]

[[Category:Technology]]

United States Capitol Building

2008-03-16T03:42:57Z

DHayes: /* Attacks */ De-link date

[[Image:800px-Capitol Building Full View.jpg|The United States Capitol building.|right|thumb|350px]]
The '''United States Capitol Building''', in Washington, D.C., is where the [[United States Congress]] meets.

== Attacks ==

On November 7, 1983, the [[Communist]] affiliated [[John Brown Anti-Klan Committee]]<ref>[http://nobsopus.blogspot.com/search?q=Tonight+we+bombed+the+U.+S.+Capitol+building Armed Resistance Unit Bombs US Capitol], ''Death to the Klan'', Winter, 1984, No.3. Retrieved from Press Reports, September 13, 2007.</ref> claimed responsibility for a bomb that detonated in the lobby outside the office of Senate Minority Leader [[Robert Byrd]]. <ref>F.B.I. Chief Says Capitol Bombing Resembles Other Blasts, Leslie Maitland Werner, The New York Times, November 11, 1983, Sec A; Page 24.</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[category:United States]]

Emo

2008-03-16T03:42:31Z

DHayes: De-linking dates

'''Emo''' is a form of rock music, usually considered a sub-genre of alternative or "indie" rock. It is thought that the term emo derived from the fact that, on occasion, members of a band would become spontaneously and strongly emotional during performances. Emerging in the mid-to-late 1980s as a distinctive form of [[punk|punk rock]], the genre has recently gained popularity thanks to bands such as: [[Fall Out Boy]], [[Dashboard Confessional]], [[Taking Back Sunday]], [[Brand New]], and many others.

=Early Days =

=="Emo-Core"==

In 1983, the DC [[punk]] scene began to lose popularity and many of the bands of the [[era]] had started to break up. In 1984, the band [[Husker Dü]] began the slow start of the early emo movement with the release of their album, [[Zen Arcade]]. The album featured melodic songwriting, intense vocals, and punkish guitars. Soon afterwards, bands such as =[[Rites Of Spring]] and [[Embrace]] began to perfect the "DC Sound" with their music. Later on, this style of music begins to be referred to as "emo-core".

=="Emo"==

In 1987, several new bands inspired by the "emo-core" bands of a few years before began to emerge in several areas around [[North America]]. These bands added their own unique sound to the genre, including softer and sometimes whispered vocals, louder guitars, screaming vocals, and the most recognizable element of the genre, octave chords. The vocal style for this genre could range from normal singing, to screaming and even crying at some parts.

Much of the lyrics for this genre were somewhat abstract poetry which were often inaudible because of the volume of the instruments. When playing live, many bands would keep their backs to the audience while playing the quiet parts and would jump around and knock things over and scream at the top of their lungs during the loud parts.

There was almost no commercialism at all for this genre as most bands did not make t-shirts and only sold records at their shows.

Most "emo" bands would only be around for a short time. Many bands only released their first records posthumously.

In this decade, with the rise in popularity of such bands as Fall Out Boy. Panic! at the Disco, and My Chemical Romance, emo has become quite mainstream, getting as much radio play (if not more so) than hip-hop and "bubblegum" pop.

Source: http://altmusic.about.com/od/genresstyles/p/emo.htm

==Noteworthy Early Bands==

* [[Husker Du]],
* [[Rites Of Spring]],
* [[Embrace]],
* [[Dag Nasty]],
* [[Jawbreaker]],
* [[Moss Icon]],
* [[Shotmaker]],
* [[Still Life]]

=="Hardcore Emo"==

"Emo" played harder, faster and louder beginning in the early 1990s with bands such as [[Mohinder]], [[Heroin]], and [[Swing Kids]].

=References=

1. http://www.fourfa.com/

[[Category:Music]]

Southern Manifesto

2008-03-16T03:40:15Z

DHayes: De-link date

'''''The Southern Manifesto''''' was a document written in 1956 by legislators in the [[United States Congress]] opposed to racial integration in public places. It was signed by politicians from the former [[Confederate States of America|Confederate States]] - [[Alabama]], [[Arkansas]], [[Florida]], [[Georgia (U.S. state)|Georgia]], [[Louisiana]], [[Mississippi]], [[North Carolina]], [[South Carolina]], [[Texas]], and [[Virginia]].

It was largely drawn up to counter the landmark Supreme Court 1954 ruling [[Brown v. Board of Education]], which integrated public schools. The document was signed by 101 [[U.S. Southern states|Southern]] members of the [[United States House of Representatives|House of Representatives]], and it included all of the State of Georgia's Congressional Delegation. School segregation laws were some of the most enduring and best-known of the [[Jim Crow law]]s that characterized the American South at the time.

==Text==

The document read as follows:

"DECLARATION OF CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLES

The unwarranted decision of the Supreme Court in the public school cases is now bearing the fruit always produced when men substitute naked power for established law.

The [[Founding Fathers of the United States|Founding Fathers]] gave us a [[United States Constitution|Constitution]] of [[Checks and balances|checks and balances]] because they realized the inescapable lesson of history that no man or group of men can be safely entrusted with unlimited power. They framed this Constitution with its provisions for change by [[Constitutional amendment|amendment]] in order to secure the fundamentals of government against the dangers of temporary popular passion or the personal predilections of public officeholders.

We regard the decisions of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]] in the school cases as a clear abuse of judicial power. It climaxes a trend in the Federal Judiciary undertaking to legislate, in derogation of the authority of Congress, and to encroach upon the [[States' rights|reserved rights of the States]] and the people.

The original Constitution does not mention education. Neither does the 14th Amendment nor any other amendment. The debates preceding the submission of the [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|14th Amendment]] clearly show that there was no intent that it should affect the system of education maintained by the States.

The very Congress which proposed the amendment subsequently provided for segregated schools in the [[District of Columbia]].

When the amendment was adopted in 1868, there were 37 States of the Union. . . .

Every one of the 26 States that had any substantial racial differences among its people, either approved the operation of [[Racial segregation|segregated]] schools already in existence or subsequently established such schools by action of the same law-making body which considered the 14th Amendment.

As admitted by the Supreme Court in the public school case (Brown v. Board of Education), the doctrine of separate but equal schools "apparently originated in Roberts v. City of Boston (1849), upholding school segregation against attack as being violative of a State constitutional guarantee of equality." This constitutional doctrine began in the North, not in the South, and it was followed not only in [[Massachusetts]], but in [[Connecticut]], [[New York]], [[Illinois]], [[Indiana]], [[Michigan]], [[Minnesota]], [[New Jersey]], [[Ohio]], [[Pennsylvania]] and other northern states until they, exercising their rights as states through the constitutional processes of local self-government, changed their school systems.

In the case of [[Plessy v. Ferguson]] in 1896 the Supreme Court expressly declared that under the 14th Amendment no person was denied any of his rights if the States provided separate but equal facilities. This decision has been followed in many other cases. It is notable that the Supreme Court, speaking through [[William Howard Taft|Chief Justice Taft]], a former [[President of the United States]], unanimously declared in 1927 in [[Lum v. Rice]] that the "[[Separate but equal|separate but equal]]" principle is "within the discretion of the State in regulating its public schools and does not conflict with the 14th Amendment."

This interpretation, restated time and again, became a part of the life of the people of many of the States and confirmed their habits, traditions, and way of life. It is founded on elemental humanity and commonsense, for parents should not be deprived by Government of the right to direct the lives and education of their own children.

Though there has been no constitutional amendment or act of Congress changing this established legal principle almost a century old, the Supreme Court of the United States, with no legal basis for such action, undertook to exercise their naked judicial power and substituted their personal political and social ideas for the established law of the land.

This unwarranted exercise of power by the Court, contrary to the Constitution, is creating chaos and confusion in the States principally affected. It is destroying the amicable relations between the [[Whites|white]] and [[Negro]] races that have been created through 90 years of patient effort by the good people of both races. It has planted hatred and suspicion where there has been heretofore friendship and understanding.

Without regard to the consent of the governed, outside mediators are threatening immediate and revolutionary changes in our [[Public school|public schools]] systems. If done, this is certain to destroy the system of public education in some of the States.

With the gravest concern for the explosive and dangerous condition created by this decision and inflamed by outside meddlers:

We reaffirm our reliance on the Constitution as the fundamental law of the land.

We decry the Supreme Court's encroachment on the rights reserved to the States and to the people, contrary to established law, and to the Constitution.

We commend the motives of those States which have declared the intention to resist forced integration by any lawful means.

We appeal to the States and people who are not directly affected by these decisions to consider the constitutional principles involved against the time when they too, on issues vital to them may be the victims of judicial encroachment.

Even though we constitute a minority in the present Congress, we have full faith that a majority of the American people believe in the dual system of government which has enabled us to achieve our greatness and will in time demand that the reserved rights of the States and of the people be made secure against judicial usurpation.

We pledge ourselves to use all lawful means to bring about a reversal of this decision which is contrary to the Constitution and to prevent the use of force in its implementation.

In this trying period, as we all seek to right this wrong, we appeal to our people not to be provoked by the agitators and troublemakers invading our States and to scrupulously refrain from disorder and lawless acts."

==Senate signatories==

It was signed by the following Senators:

*ALABAMA - [[Lister Hill]], [[John Sparkman]]
*ARKANSAS - [[J. William Fulbright]], [[John McClellan]]
*FLORIDA - [[Spessard Holland]], [[George Smathers]]
*GEORGIA - [[Walter George]], [[Richard Russell]]
*LOUISIANA - [[Allan Ellender]], [[Russell Long]]
*MISSISSIPPI - [[James Eastland]], [[John Stennis]]
*NORTH CAROLINA - [[Sam Ervin]], [[William Scott]]
*SOUTH CAROLINA - [[Olin Johnston]], [[Strom Thurmond]]
*TEXAS - [[Price Daniel]]
*VIRGINIA - [[Harry F. Byrd]], [[A. Willis Robertson]]

MEMBERS OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Alabama: Frank W. Boykin, George M. Grant, George W. Andrews, Kenneth A. Roberts, Albert Rains, Armistead I. Selden, Jr., Carl Elliott, Robert E. Jones, George Huddleston, Jr.

Arkansas: E.C. Gathings, [[Wilbur D. Mills]], James W. Trimble, Oren Harris, Brooks Hays, W.F. Norrell.

Florida: Charles E. Bennett, Robert L.F. Sikes, A.S. Herlong, Jr., Paul G. Rogers, James A. Haley, D.R. Matthews.

Georgia: Prince H. Preston, John L. Pilcher, E.L. Forrester, John James Flynt, Jr., James C. Davis, [[Carl Vinson]], Henderson Lanham, Iris F. Blitch, Phil M. Landrum, Paul Brown.

Louisiana: F. Edward Hebert, [[Hale Boggs]], Edwin E. Willis, Overton Brooks, Otto E. Passman, James H. Morrison, T. Ashton Thompson, George S. Long.

Mississippi: Thomas G. Abernathy, [[Jamie L. Whitten]], Frank E. Smith, John Bell Williams, Arthur Winstead, William M. Colmer.

North Carolina: Herbert C. Bonner, L.H. Fountain, Graham A. Barden, Carl T. Durham, F. Ertel Carlyle, Hugh Q. Alexander, Woodrow W. Jones, George A. Shuford.

South Carolina: L. Mendel Rivers, John J. Riley, W.J. Bryan Dorn, Robert T. Ashmore, James P. Richards, John L. McMillan.

Tennessee: James B. Frazier, Jr., Tom Murray, Jere Cooper, Clifford Davis.

==External link==
[http://www.strom.clemson.edu/strom/manifesto.html Manifesto text and signers from the Congressional Record]

[[Category:history]]

Talk:Vietnam War/draft

2008-03-16T03:39:50Z

DHayes: De-link date

[[Image:SaigonFall.jpg|thumb|South Vietnamese residents flee [[Saigon]], as North Vietnamese forces enter the city.]]
The '''Vietnam War''', officially the '''Second Indochina Conflict''', was initiated by the [[United States]], in response to a poll conducted that suggested given the planned democratic election after the reduction of the demilitarized zone upheld until 1956 since the war would lead to a certain [[communist]] victory.

The 1954 Geneva agreement provided for a cease-fire between communist and anti-communist nationalist forces, the temporary division of Vietnam at approximately the 17th parallel, provisional northern (communist) and southern (noncommunist) zone governments, and the evacuation of anti-communist Vietnamese from northern to southern Vietnam. The agreement also called for an election to be held by July 1956 to bring the two provisional zones under a unified government. However, the South Vietnamese Government refused to accept this provision. On October 26, 1955, South Vietnam declared itself the Republic of Vietnam. <ref>U.S. State Department, Bureau of East Asian and Pacific Affairs [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/4130.htm Vietnam], December 2006. </ref>

A frustrated [[Ho Chi Minh]] eventually decided to militarily move into South Vietnam with his [[Viet Minh]] (later [[Viet Cong]]) as the increasingly unpopular US controlled government employed stronger tactics to maintain the South Vietnamese people under Diem. In retaliation the US sent 'advisers' to help Diem keep the situation under control before stepping up to a full scale ground war. The war was the longest in American history, lasting approximately 16 years. It was also the first war fought by America in which the stated military goals of the Americans were not met. The turning point was the [[Tet Offensive]] where the North Vietnamese launched simultaneous large scale attacks on multiple targets. Military a failure, it succeeded in the realm of perceptions in America since it showed a much more resilient and stronger Vietnamese enemy than that which had been believed by the American public. It is now widely agreed that it is the first war America actually lost failing to win the hearts and minds of both the Vietnamese and the people back home. America left the war in 1973 under an arrangement that was supposed to keep South Vietnam free from the Communist north, but in 1975 the north invaded and quickly conquered the country. Today Vietnam has a communist government.

==Opposition to the Vietnam War==

The Vietnam War is remembered as creating massive opposition in the [[United States]]. Millions of Americans, including some known as [[hippies]], were opposed to the Vietnam War. They felt that they had been lied to by the government and that the war was unnecessary. Others objected for reasons such as a commitment to [[pacifism]]. This opposition inspired such songs as "The I Feel Like I'm Fixing to Die Rag," by [[Country Joe McDonald]], "Give Peace a Chance," by [[John Lennon]], "Run Through the Jungle," by [[Creedence Clearwater Revival]], and "War," by [[Edwin Starr]]. This opposition also manifested itself in the form of protests. One of the most famous protests of this era occurred at Kent State University in [[Ohio]], during which four students were shot and killed by the Ohio State National Guard following several days of rioting and the firebombing of the ROTC building. The shooting was later determined to be justified when a federal court dismissed the case against the eight guardsmen indicted.[http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/LEWIHEN.htm]

It wasn't until the Reagan era that popular culture, and society, began to embrace Vietnam veterans as heroes by creating characters like John Rambo and John "Hannibal" Smith.

==References==
<references/>

==External links==

*Larry Berman, [http://hnn.us/articles/37934.html ''Perfect Spy: The Incredible Double Life of Pham Xuan An''], Time Magazine (Smithsonian Books/HarperCollins, 2007). [http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780060888381/Perfect_Spy/index.aspx]
*[http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/almanac-saigon.pdf SIGINT and the Fall of Saigon, April 1975].
*[http://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?eventID=6 "Secrecy, Freedom and Empire: Lessons for Today from Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers"].
*[http://www.onpower.org/foreign_regional_Asia.html#10 Vietnam War].

Talk:Alfred Kinsey

2008-03-16T03:39:15Z

DHayes: Could somebody de-link the dates and years?

{{protect|RobS}}
==“He used faulty statistical sampling methods to baffle the unsophisticated.” ==

The following is a source by source explanation for my removal of the sentence ““He used faulty statistical sampling methods to baffle the unsophisticated.” from this article.

I removed the source “Felicity Barringer, "Sex Survey of American Men Finds 1% Are Gay," The New York Times, April 15, 1993, p. A- 1.” because the source did not say anything about “He [Kinsey] used faulty statistical sampling methods to baffle the unsophisticated.” It did say the numbers were lower than those reported by Kinsey, but not that his methods were in any way flawed. Did not support the claim it claimed to support, so removed.

I removed the source “Boyce Rensberger, "How Many Men in U.S. Are Gay?," The Washington Post, April 17, 1993, p. A-1.” because the source contradicts the first sentence of the article (it says that Kinsey estimated the percentage at 4%), and because source does not claim that he “used faulty statistical sampling methods to baffle the unsophisticated.” – it does say “Kinsey's numbers were not based on a statistically valid sample.” But that is a much weaker claim than the article here makes. Additionally, the full title of the article should be given, it is “How Many Men in U.S. Are Gay? Estimates Vary By Millions” not “How Many Men in U.S. Are Gay?”

I removed the source “Barbara Vobejda, "Survey Finds Most Adults Sexually Staid," Washington Post, October 7, 1994, p. A-1.” because it like the previous source does not accuse Kinsey of trying to baffle the unsophisticated, it simply says, “While studies of Americans' sexual practices date back to the work of Alfred Kinsey in the 1940s, much research in the field has focused on fertility, teenage sex or behavior related to AIDS. Many of the studies, including Kinsey's, were not based on a representative sample of the population.” (Very week criticism, if criticism at al,l compared to what the article claims.) Additionally the full title is “Survey Finds Most Adults Sexually Staid; Americans' Average Is Once Per Week”.

I removed the source “Judith A. Reisman, Kinsey: Crimes and Consequences the Red Queen and the Grand Scheme” because it does not contain the accusation that Kinsey intended to “baffle the unsophisticated” with his statistics—it does not support the claim it is used to support. Additionally Dr. Reisman has a degree in Communications, not statistics, biology, human behavior, or any relevant field and so is not really an appropriate source for this article at all. (She is also the major proponent of “erototoxins” a theory that has no science to support it—not even any she has produced—which pushes her views so far to the fringe that even if her background were in a relevant field—which, I repeat, it isn’t—she shouldn’t be used as a source here).

I removed the source “Tom W. Smith, "Adult Sexual Behavior in 1989: Number of Partners, Frequency of Intercourse and Risk of AIDS," Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 23, No. 3, May/June 1991, p. 104.” because it does not even mention Kinsey – it mentions his institute and a 1970 study conducted by it, but does not even touch on the issue of the statistics used in Kinsey’s major studies. It does not support the claim it allegedly supported, and so was removed.

I removed the source “Franklin D. Jones and Ronald J. Koshes, "Homosexuality and the Military," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 152, No. 1, January 1995, pp. 16.” because it contains the 4% number not the 10% number, and because it does not criticize Kinsy’s statistical methods. It does not support the claim it allegedly supported, and so needed to be removed.

I removed the source “Stuart N. Seidman and Ronald O. Rieder, "A Review of Sexual Behavior in the United States," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 151, March 1994, p. 339.” because it notes that the Kinsey studies had “severe methodological limitations” but not the stronger claim that “He [Kinsey] used faulty statistical sampling methods to baffle the unsophisticated.” This source goes on to use the Kinsey data to make some evaluations of behavior, while noting the limitations of the data.

None of the 7 sources listed to support the claim, “He [Kinsey] used faulty statistical sampling methods to baffle the unsophisticated,” in fact support that claim. Since after seven tries no good source to support the claim was provided I removed the claim all together as it will likely not be supported.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 14:52, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

:I removed these again, sine the revert seemed targeted at the 10% number not this claim.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:06, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::Is there a reason this edit was reverted again? I’ve explained in great detail why each and every single one of these sources does not support the claim it is being used to support and why it was removed. Is there a problem with any of my explanation or is there a quote from one of these sources I’m missing? If the revert could be explained I would greatly appreciate it. I’ve seen no objection to this edit (the only objection I’ve seen to any of my edits to this page is that “everyone knows” the 10% which this edit did not touch—see below for why I made that edit), could the problem with it be explained?--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:27, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:::I’ve seen a lot of discussion on this page by the reverting sysop, but only about the other edit I made that was reverted, nothing about this edit. I assume that this means that this edit was inadvertently reverted and if I see no objections I will make it again shortly.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 09:47, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Ok, seeing no objection. I will remove this material again.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:08, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
:::::I see that my edit has been reverted and the page is now locked because of an “Edit war”. I’ve still seen no reason why this edit is not ok, please explain.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 11:00, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

== Reisman ==

For the reasons stated above, I would advocate removing Reisman (and especially the reference here [http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/reisman.html] )from this article. I also want to add a few additional reasons here. First, she is not the first person to point out the statistical flaws with Kinsey’s methodology—so she can hardly be said to have “debunked” him. Second, Kinsey’s data, when the limitations of it are recognized, is still valuable and used in scientific papers – one of the sources above used it. Third, her quote stops short of the conclusion it seems to be used to support, in context she goes on to say:
<blockquote> Under scrutiny is the role of Dr. Alfred C. Kinsey and his contention that Americans are 10% to 47%, more or less, homosexual. Kinsey's percentage was seized upon by Harry Hay, the father of the homosexual "civil rights" movement, when Hay formed the Mattachine Society, urging that homosexuality be seen no longer as an act of sodomy but as a 10% minority class. Today, scores of homosexual activists cite Kinsey as the man who made the homosexual movement possible.[3] </blockquote>
<blockquote>But what if all of Kinsey's work was fraudulent, or worse? What if it reflects unethical scientists conducting unprosecuted criminal acts? For example, is it possible that scientists have conducted sexual experiments on children? Or that they could allow or encourage child abusers to conduct such experiments? The possibility that this actually occurred-and indeed that the claimed results of such experiments have played a critical and sustained role in our law and public policy-has led Congress to submit legislation which calls for an examination of the relevant facts. The legislation focuses on the research and publications of Dr. Alfred Kinsey and his colleagues ("The Kinsey Institute") conducted at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana from the late 1930s to the early 1950s. The legislation is known as H.R. 2749, "The Child Protection and Ethics in Education Act.”</blockquote>
Fourth, she questions his results on homosexuality because:
<blockquote> However, without question, any "scientists" who reprint and encourage production of data on child sexuality which have been taken from child sex offenders engaged in "manual or oral" sex with babies and children, are not scientists but propagandists-indeed guilty of admitted criminal sexual conduct, by the descriptions in their publications, whether the sexual offender(s) were identified and prosecuted or not. To trust anything these men or their disciples produce is to put one's faith in those who use the language of science to accomplish personal, criminal, and/or sexual interests. Hence, whatever Kinsey's claims of homosexual percentages and normality were, these become, pragmatically, as invalid as his child sexuality data.</blockquote>
That is, she finds some of his subject area distasteful and therefore we should reject all his data. This is (at best) a moral critique of the study of sex research, it is far from a scientific critique. Fifth, her “evidence” of criminal wrongdoing on the part of Kinsey and his associates is minimal at best—I see lots of hand waving and hysteria, but no actual evidence—and even if Kinsey were guilty of encouraging the sexual abuse of children (a fact I highly doubt, but am open to the possibility of being wrong on) that doesn’t invalidate his other numbers.

I would suggest immediate removal of this section from the article for all of these reasons.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 15:19, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:I’m seeing no objections to removing this information. I plan to act on it in the next day or so if I see none.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 14:39, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

== Unreliable source? ==

The referenced article 'The re-whitewashing of pedophile Alfred Kinsey' seems to be quite suspect. Its published by Renew America, who have political disputes with Kinsey's work, and seems to be concerned mainly not with criticisms of his research but a combination of personal accusations and claims that Kinsey was and still is destroying society. Look at some of these:

''This collection comprised nudist magazines that contained pictures and drawings of nude men and boys, and Kinsey would show them to his young male charges in his tent — alone — late at night.''

Source, perhaps? No? Was Kinsey ever charged with any type of sex crime? Nope. Are there any witnesses or accounts of these late-night showings? Nope.

''Kinsey is without a doubt one of the most vile, destructive and perverted individuals I have ever had the displeasure of studying.''

Could it be that the writer is just the tiniest bit biased against Kinsey?

A lot of the claims made are also dubious. The entire section on Dr. Fritz Von Balluseck, for example - the Nazi Pedophile who the article claims Kinsey protected and encouraged. If you do a bit of research on that, just a little googling, it seems that this claim was pulled out of the blue by a British TV program called 'Kinsey's Pedophiles' - which based its claims on 'newspaper findings' without nameing any specific newspaper. A claim which it appears to have in turn pulled from the claims of one Dr. Judith Reisman - who the author of the re-whitewashing article seems to hold in high estem.

This Reisman is also reaponsible for many of the other claims repeated - most, if not all. Yet her own credability is pathetic. She appears to be on an anti-Kinsey crusade, publishing a series of books and a website attacking him, and making numerous claims which I can see at a glance to be nonsense. For example, the ''Kinsey's 'research' alleged that 10% of American males were homosexual'' line, which is actually just a misreading of his definition (The research actually claimed that 10% of males had homosexual tendencies, which could include bisexuality, or even heterosexuals who had recurring homosexual thoughts or fantasies even if not acted upon). And she makes some very dubious claims - once stateing that watching pornography caused the formation of toxic chemicals in the brain.

The re-whitewashing writer seems to have a bit of a nazi obcession, comparing Kinsey to them no less than five times. Including one time where he argues that Kinsey must be like the Nazis because they both supported eugenics - well, eugenics was hugely popular at that time, quite a few US states passed eugenics laws and yet noone calls those representatives Nazis. It was in fashion.

I just dont think we should refer to this collection of unfounded accusations and lies, written by a peddler of unfounded accusations and lies, in turn repeated by the creator of unfounded accusations and lies and without a spec of credability at any chain. I advise that it be removed, and never refered to here again, in the name of retaining what little credability Conservapedia has.

I have not seen such an appallingly bad source used on Conservapedia since the article that claimed the Nazi Party encouraged homosexuality.

Suricou, the annoyed raven.

== 10% or 4% ==

Two of the references use on the original version of this page show that Kinsey claimed that 4% not 10% of the American public was homosexual—no references have been provided supporting the 10% claim—I think that if my addition is going to be reverted, at least some sources should be provided. The articles make a point of saying the Kinsey was misunderstood to be claiming the 10% number, so a reference to “everybody knows” Kinsey said it is not sufficient here.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:04, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:It's common knowledge. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:06, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::The sources point out that common knowledge is wrong.
::And I didn’t change the 10% number so the revert you just did put back the bad sources discussed above not here.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:09, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

:Waht we need is the GAO report from here. [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c104:H.R.2749:] [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:37, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::This link says nothing about the 10% number. It says that Congress considered a bill to have the GAO look into whether or not Kinsey did anything wrong—that has nothing to do with what number he reported.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:39, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::If you look here [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d104:HR02749:@@@X], you will see that the bill was never voted on (it went to a subcommittee where the Republican controlled House let it die) so no GAO report was ever made.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:42, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:::The report was ordered because the 10% made is way into federally funded school texts for 30 odd years. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:45, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::::First, the report was never ordered—see the link I provided. Second, the report was considered because of the child sexuality information not the homosexuality information—see section 2 of the bill. Third, the number is not in the link you provided.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 16:47, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:::::No one said the number was in the link. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:00, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::::::Ok. Then how is it relevant? It is not about homosexuality at all, it doesn’t talk about homosexuality, and the bill was never passed—so no report was ever made. How is this at all relevant to the subject under debate here (whether Kinsey claimed that 10% of American men were homosexual or whether he claimed 4% were).?
::::::Also, Please do not forget to address my points numbered 1 and 2 above.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 17:05, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
(<--) There is no debate. Kinsey made the claim. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:07, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:I provided two sources that clearly say he did not make the claim, but that people commonly misunderstand him to have made the claim. (They were “Boyce Rensberger, "How Many Men in U.S. Are Gay?, Estimates Vary By Millions" The Washington Post, April 17, 1993, p. A-1.” and “Franklin D. Jones and Ronald J. Koshes, "Homosexuality and the Military," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 152, No. 1, January 1995, pp. 16.”) You have asserted that “It’s common knowledge.” I have explained that the common knowledge is false and provided two reputable sources to back this up. You have responded by linking to a bill that was never passed suggesting that Kinsey be investigated for sexually abusing children (a bit of a non sequitur, apparently since you have stopped talking about it). You have not suggested that my sources are unreliable, you have not suggested that you have a more reliable source, you have not provided any source (let alone a reliable one) supporting the 10% you have repeated that everyone knows it to be true—despite the fact that I have explained why common knowledge is not to be trusted in this case. The 10% is a misrepresentation of Kinsey’s work.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 17:15, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:Not supported by the evidence. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:24, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
::What evidence? You have provided no evidence for me to look at. Simply asserting a thing to be true, especially when the evidence I have provided says that what most people believe is false, is not evidence.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 17:28, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
:The discussion has moved on to [[User:Conservative/socialeffectevolution]]. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:53, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

::There is no need to move the discussion—especially to the page of a user rather than to the appropriate article (I’ve not been invited to post on that user’s page, and will not violate the rule that a user’s page is his castle to pursue this discussion with you)—or to a page that is tangentially related at best—we are discussing what number Kinsey gave on a page about Kinsey, we are not discussing anything about Darwin and so I think talking about this on a page about the impact on society of Darwin’s theory is inappropriate. I will therefore respond here, as this is the relevant location.
::Most of the “evidence” posted on the page you linked to comes from Dr. Reisman, who for all the reasons I listed above is not a reliable source—and I still see no reason to trust her. The other “evidence” you post pertains to the bill we have discussed at length here—which for all the reasons discussed above is still not relevant to this discussion—the Eagle Forum piece on the bill reemphasizes that it deals with child sexuality not homosexuality—that is it is not. So the evidence offered is 1 untrustworthy source and the discussion of an bill never passed (or voted on) that deals with a separate issue. Compared to the two reliable sources (remember they were and are both used in the version of the article you have twice reverted back to) that I have provided for the 4% number—including 1 from a peer reviewed journal in a relevant field, psychiatry.
::To attempt to forestall further misunderstanding let me quote the relevant sources.
::From “Franklin D. Jones and Ronald J. Koshes, "Homosexuality and the Military," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 152, No. 1, January 1995, pp. 16 (citing to Kinsey’s Sexual Behavior in the Human Male.):
::<blockquote>Kinsey et al. found that 4% of men are exclusively homosexual past adolescence. </blockquote>
::There it is in plain English, from a peer reviewed article in a journal on psychiatry - Kinsey gave the 4% number.
::From Boyce Rensberger, "How Many Men in U.S. Are Gay?, Estimates Vary By Millions" The Washington Post, April 17, 1993, p. A-1:
::<blockquote> Although that figure is so much a part of conventional wisdom that a year-old San Francisco gay magazine is called Ten Percent, Kinsey never intended it as a measure of the proportion of homosexual men. The pioneering sexologist recognized that human sexuality encompasses a range of behaviors shading from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual.</blockquote>
::<blockquote>Kinsey estimated that just 4 percent of men were purely homosexual (that extrapolates to 5 million men in the United States), but said the population could be as high as 10 percent (12.5 million) if men were included who had been "more or less exclusively homosexual" for at least three years out of a lifetime that was otherwise heterosexual. </blockquote>
::There, from a reliable newspaper you have the 4% number given again and an explanation of where the 10% mythos comes from. Kinsey was interested not just in behavior over a life time, but in snapshots of behavior as well—the additional 6% comes from misunderstanding what Kinsey said. He said that 6% of the people he surveyed went through, what we might now call, a homosexual phase, they were not homosexual, they engaged in heterosexual behavior for most of their lives, but they experienced a prolonged period of exclusively homosexual behavior at some point in time. In modern parlance we would call these people bisexual.
::So you can see the reliable sources on this, and how the 10% figure came to be the dominant one in the popular imagination.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 22:45, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

== Additions ==

Perhaps some information on when Kinsey was born and died and what he did for a living would be appropriate as well. A brief discussion of his overall work might be beneficial. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 20:12, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

:His overall work was to justify and legitimize sexual perversion. He was a homosexual sadomasochist. I don't think any part of his 'overall work' has been beneficial. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:44, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

::I have not seen anything to point towards homosexuality, and he was married to Clara McMillen and they had four children. If you could show me a document that proves he was homosexual I would appriciate it. --[[User:Be not dismayed|Be not dismayed]]

:You didn't follow the CWA link I supplied? Maybe <s>you</s> we need to make it more prominent - once you find it - so that other readers can find it too. <s>Would you do that for me, please? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:57, 22 June 2007 (EDT)</s> --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 20:58, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

::Here's the source the CWA used- ''James H. Jones, Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life (New York, London: W.W. Norton & Company,1997), pp. 81-85 and 603-604.'', though it would be factual if you mentioned that he was married and had 4 children [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/kinsey/peopleevents/p_mac.html]

== Dates ==

Since this is protected, could someone please dewikilink the dates? Thanks. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 23:48, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

== More Info ==

I like this article as it is, but I think it would also help to have some more info on the historical person. For example, he wrote/edited "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male" which was a huge seller. He taught at a University, was married, those sorts of biographical details that make the article flow a little better. It is locked so I can't edit any of this. Thanks! [[User:Mathers|ItMathers]] 18:40, 20 October 2007 (EDT)
:It was locked by [[user:RobSmith|RobSmith]], so I suggest that you leave him a message on his talk page asking him to unlock it for you. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:34, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

== Could somebody de-link the dates and years? ==

What the headline says. Article is locked, so I can't do it myself. --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 23:39, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Template:PM

2008-03-16T03:36:56Z

DHayes: Fixing/updating documentation

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{{Parm|name|name of Prime Minister|no|Defaults to page name}}
{{Parm|yob|Year of birth|no|See note B}}
{{Parm|dob|Date and Month of birth|no|See note B}}
{{Parm|yod|Year of death|no|See note B}}
{{Parm|dod|Date and month of death|no|See note B}}
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'''NOTE A:''' Parameters of the form xxxx-raw are alternatives to the non-raw form. These should be used ''instead of'' the non-raw form to (a) provide links where the article name is different to the displayed name, or (b) where a link is not wanted. For example, if the capital of a country is ''Washington'', but the page name for that capital is ''Washington D.C.'', then you would type {{tt|<nowiki>capital-raw=[[Washington D.C.|Washington]]</nowiki>}}. If, instead, the page name is simply ''Washington'', then {{tt|<nowiki>capital=Washington</nowiki>}} is all that is needed, and will automatically be linked. If both non-raw and raw forms are supplied, the non-raw form will be ignored.

'''NOTE B:''' The date of birth/death rows will display if ''either'' the year or date is provided. The full date (day of month, month, and year) should be provided for the sake of accuracy.

</noinclude>

Template:PM

2008-03-16T03:33:13Z

DHayes: Actually... I don't think we need that extra template now...

<includeonly>{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; font-size:85%"

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{{TemplateDoc|pages=Country articles|purpose=Info box|cat=}}
{{Parms|
{{Parm|name|name of Prime Minister|no|Defaults to page name}}
{{Parm|yob|Year of birth|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|dob|Date and Month of birth|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|yod|Year of death|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|dod|Date and month of death|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
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{{Parm|wife|Name of wife|no}}
{{Parm|wife-raw|Name of wife|no|See note A}}
{{Parm|succ|Predecessors and successors|no|One or more {{tl|Succession}} templates}}
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'''NOTE A:''' Parameters of the form xxxx-raw are alternatives to the non-raw form. These should be used ''instead of'' the non-raw form to (a) provide links where the article name is different to the displayed name, or (b) where a link is not wanted. For example, if the capital of a country is ''Washington'', but the page name for that capital is ''Washington D.C.'', then you would type {{tt|<nowiki>capital-raw=[[Washington D.C.|Washington]]</nowiki>}}. If, instead, the page name is simply ''Washington'', then {{tt|<nowiki>capital=Washington</nowiki>}} is all that is needed, and will automatically be linked. If both non-raw and raw forms are supplied, the non-raw form will be ignored.

'''NOTE B:''' The date of birth/death rows will display if ''either'' the year or date is provided, and will not display the information correctly if only one of the date or year are provided. So the full date (day of month, month, and year) need to be all provided or none provided.

</noinclude>

Template:PM

2008-03-16T03:31:42Z

DHayes: Template overkill, but this should de-link the dates

<includeonly>{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; font-size:85%"

{{!-}}
!colspan="2"{{!}}<big>{{{name|{{PAGENAME}}}}}</big>

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</includeonly><noinclude>
{{TemplateDoc|pages=Country articles|purpose=Info box|cat=}}
{{Parms|
{{Parm|name|name of Prime Minister|no|Defaults to page name}}
{{Parm|yob|Year of birth|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|dob|Date and Month of birth|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|yod|Year of death|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|dod|Date and month of death|no|Is automatically linked|See note B}}
{{Parm|husband|Name of husband|no|}}
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{{Parm|wife|Name of wife|no}}
{{Parm|wife-raw|Name of wife|no|See note A}}
{{Parm|succ|Predecessors and successors|no|One or more {{tl|Succession}} templates}}
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'''NOTE A:''' Parameters of the form xxxx-raw are alternatives to the non-raw form. These should be used ''instead of'' the non-raw form to (a) provide links where the article name is different to the displayed name, or (b) where a link is not wanted. For example, if the capital of a country is ''Washington'', but the page name for that capital is ''Washington D.C.'', then you would type {{tt|<nowiki>capital-raw=[[Washington D.C.|Washington]]</nowiki>}}. If, instead, the page name is simply ''Washington'', then {{tt|<nowiki>capital=Washington</nowiki>}} is all that is needed, and will automatically be linked. If both non-raw and raw forms are supplied, the non-raw form will be ignored.

'''NOTE B:''' The date of birth/death rows will display if ''either'' the year or date is provided, and will not display the information correctly if only one of the date or year are provided. So the full date (day of month, month, and year) need to be all provided or none provided.

</noinclude>

John Howard

2008-03-16T03:27:28Z

DHayes: De-linking dates

{{PM
|name=John Winston Howard
|wife=Janette Howard
|party=Liberal Party of Australia
|dob=26 July
|yob=1939
|birthplace=Earlwood, New South Wales
|succ={{Succession
|hdg=Prime Minister
|start-date=11 March
|start-year=1996
|end-date=2 December
|end-year=2007
|prev=Paul Keating
|next=Kevin Rudd
}}{{Succession
|hdg=Liberal Party leader
|start-date=
|start-year=1995
|end-date=
|end-year=2007
|prev=Alexander Downer
|next=Brendan Nelson
}}
}}
'''John Winston Howard''' was the [[Prime Minister]] of [[Australia]], and leader of the ''[[Liberal Party of Australia]]'', from March 1996 to December 2007, making him the second-longest-serving Prime Minister of Australia.

He became Prime Minister when the Liberal Party won a majority in the [[Australia#System_of_Government|House of Representatives]] at the general election in 1996 (in coalition with the smaller National Party), succeeding [[Paul Keating]].

John Howard married Janette Parker in 1971, and they have a daughter and two sons.

== Political life ==
Howard had been a parliamentarian for 22 years before becoming the Prime Minister, and for 21 of those years he was on the front bench, including roles as Treasurer and Opposition Leader.

During his term as Prime Minister, he began privatisation of the national communications provider, [[Telstra]], introduced a 10% [[Goods and services tax]] to replace various other taxes, and brought in new industrial relations laws that alter some protections for employees, particularly those in small businesses. He also tightened [[gun control|controls on firearms]], with widespread public support. Although opposed to the idea, he also introduced a [[referendum]] on Australia becoming a [[republic]], which was defeated.

Howard was very supportive of the war in [[Iraq]], and the Australian government under his leadership was a steadfast supporter of the [[coalition of the willing]], although this also brought much opposition against him from the public and from the Australian media.

==Recent political controversies==
The prosecution of [[David Hicks]] at [[Guantanamo Bay]] was a political issue for Howard.

Other controversies in mid-2007 centred around on issues as the Federal Government's desire to take control of what was originally state rights to decide upon water usage in the Murray-Darling River System, the taking over of direct funding of a state hospital in Tasmania, and stepping in to alleviate problems in some aboriginal communities.

The arrest and eventual charging of Dr Haneef on suspicion of consorting with terrorists led to the eventual dropping of charges, allowing Dr Haneef to return to his native [[India]]. Questions remained regarding the government's handling of the case, and it was reported in September 2007 that applications from overseas doctors seeking to work in Australia fell 80% in the months since the incident [http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/21/2040431.htm].

John Howard hosted the 2007 [[APEC]] meeting in [[Sydney]]. The security measures that were taken were criticised domestically, and included a 3 mile security fence in Sydney's Central Business District, and a call for Sydneysiders to leave the city over the APEC weekend.

The decision by the Reserve Bank of Australia to raise interest rates several times during 2007 has also caused problems for Howard, who was under fire for advertisements in which he featured in the 2004 election campaign, where it was claimed that his government would keep interest rates at "record lows". He later attempted to disown the advertisements.

The popularity of Howard was at an all-time low after [[Kevin Rudd]] became the opposition leader. The gap in the polls lessened slightly during the second half of 2007, although the ALP enjoyed a winning lead right up to the November 2007 election.

Howard's age (68 years) during the lead-up to the November 2007 election was said by the Labor Party to be an issue, which in retrospect appears youthful compared to [[US]] [[Republican]] nominee [[John McCain]] who will be 72 at the US' [[2008 Presidential Election]].

== Political demise ==

Howard tried to win a fifth term in office at the federal election held on 24 November 2007. He had pledged to resign late into his next term if he was re-elected, and hand over office to his government's Treasurer [[Peter Costello]]. In practice, the choice of successor would be made by a vote of all the Liberal Party's Members of Parliament (MP).

As well as losing the election to the ALP, Howard also lost in his own parliamentary electorate in a very close result against former [[ABC]] journalist, Maxine McKew, who stood against him for the ALP. This made him only the second Prime Minister in Australia's history (after [[Stanley Bruce]]) to lose his seat.

==Post-election statements==
Howard kept quiet after the election loss, until he appeared on 5 March 2008 (reported 6 March in Australia<ref>[Howard breaks silence in US http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23329635-12377,00.html], [[The Australian]], 6 March 2008</ref>) to receive the [[Irving Kristol]] Award from the right-wing [[American Enterprise Institute]] at a large black-tie dinner at the [[Hilton]] Hotel in [[Washington DC]]. Howard's two criticisms of the Rudd government were, "I am disappointed that Australia's battle group will be withdrawing from Southern Iraq in June as one of the new Labor government's election commitments... ", and, in criticising the Rudd roll back his Government's industrial relations reforms, said, "... bringing back the old unfair dismissal laws will stifle employment growth amongst small businesses." The black tie event was attended by many US heavyweights, including former [[UN]] ambassador [[John Bolton]], former [[World Bank]] president [[Paul Wolfowitz]], and [[Lynne Cheney]], the wife of Vice-President [[Dick Cheney]] who withdrew at late notice.

== Sources ==
* National Museum of Australia, [http://www.nma.gov.au/education/school_resources/websites_and_interactives/primeministers/john_howard/ John Howard]

==References==
<references/>

{{Australian Prime Ministers}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Howard, John}}

User talk:Peter Ellis

2008-03-16T03:26:21Z

DHayes: Date links

love the changes (improvements) to the Australia page - it is turning into quite a good reference. Thankyou. Bit by bit we can build a wonderful resource on this great land. --[[User:Bilby|Bilby]] 22:34, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

: Lets! :-) [[User:Peter Ellis|Peter Ellis]] 22:40, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

::Is the DLP still considered a party? They ran a few candidates in last year's Victorian election and nearly got one in. Not sure what its Federal status is - politics is not my area! Well, not party politics anyway.--[[User:Bilby|Bilby]] 23:47, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

:::I've listed *federal* parties. DLP is a state thing, as yet. See recent changes. :-) [[User:Peter Ellis|Peter Ellis]] 00:04, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

==Uniting Church==

I am not a member of the Uniting Church, but your article is excellent. I suppose the one thing that the church is known for in the wider community, that doesn't get a mention, is the Sydney injecting room. Clearly a controversial subject, but one I think would be interesting to get a run on this site as it demonstrates that the simplification that christian=conservative doesn't always hold by any means. Anyway, I felt it was "your" article so I wanted to leave you to decide whether you wanted to put such a potentially difficult comment on the page. [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 18:14, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

: Good point. It's not an issue for me. (At one stage of my life I was a phone counsellor at the UC Wayside Chapel in Kings Cross and heard and saw the toll of human suffering that the place has to offer. My personal point of view is that anything that helps is better than nothing.) I'll look into it and add a mention. [[User:Peter Ellis|Peter Ellis]] 18:21, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

== Welcome ==
This is very late, but because it has useful links, I'm adding it now...
{{welcome|sig=[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 18:57, 26 December 2007 (EST)}}

== Cricket ==

Apolgises, I didn't realise they were quotes (I mistakingly thought quotation marks would be used, like the previous section on Batsmen and Bowlers which you had also written). Also the fact the most awful of phrases 'cricket player' was used suggested to me that this was written by an non-cricket expert. --[[User:Moronicorbit|Moronicorbit]] 08:33, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:The source I used had those words (and capitals), quoting [[Richie Benaud]], which is what the head para says. I did a light edit and left that usage (cricket player v cricketer) because of the Americanese favoured for entries at this site. How about you build some pages based on the cricketers named who don't have an entry? [[User:Peter Ellis|Peter Ellis]] 12:41, 21 January 2008 (EST)

== Date links ==

I'm not going to mess around with your user page, but could you maybe de-link the dates in the image caption? It had apparently been decided not to link dates/years, so those articles will probably never be created. Thanks in advance! --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 23:26, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Professional wrestling

2008-03-16T03:23:31Z

DHayes: /* Disqualification */ De-link date.

'''Professional wrestling''', or '''pro wrestling''', is the performance, management, and [[marketing]] of an athletic [[performing art]] which contains elements of [[catch wrestling]], [[mock combat]] and [[theatre]]. It has origins in carnival [[sideshows]] in the late 19th century as part of displays of athletics and strength, and its staged aspects grew out of a need to heighten excitement and lessen the strain on performers. Modern professional wrestling usually features simulated [[strike (attack)|striking]] and [[grappling]] techniques, which are modeled after diverse sets of global wrestling and [[martial arts|pugilistic]] styles. Realistic performance is very physical and requires intense specialized training.

Professional wrestling has gradually become a pervasive form of entertainment globally, especially in [[Japan]] and [[North America]]n countries. High-profile figures in the sport often become [[pop culture]] icons, such as [[Hulk Hogan]], [[El Santo]], and [[Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson]]. Leading universities have developed courses of study on the cultural significance of professional wrestling.<ref>http://mitcmsprowrestling.blogspot.com/2006/12/this-class-will-explore-cultural.html Massachusetts Institute of Technology: Comparative Media Studies course on Professional Wrestling -- Official Course weblog</ref>

It is a billion-dollar industry, drawing revenue from ticket sales, television broadcasts, branded merchandise and home video. Pro wrestling was instrumental in making [[pay-per-view]] a viable method of content delivery. Annual shows such as [[WrestleMania]] are among the highest-selling pay-per-view programming.

Currently, the dominant professional wrestling company worldwide is the [[United States]]-based [[World Wrestling Entertainment]], which absorbed many smaller regional companies in the late twentieth century, as well as its primary competitor, [[World Championship Wrestling]].

==Types==
There are many different types of professional wrestling.

'''[[Sports entertainment]] style''' combines colorful characters and dramatic storylines with a lesser focus on the sporting aspects. This is the style of product produced by [[World Wrestling Entertainment]] and [[Total Nonstop Action Wrestling]], and is arguably the most popular form of professional wrestling. Despite its popularity, it is decried by some critics as [[over the top]] and [[circus]]-like, due to frequent usage of [[melodrama]], [[comedy]], and intentional [[camp (style)|camp]].

'''Southern style''' -- colloquially (sometimes mockingly) known as "wrasslin'" -- puts equal emphasis on theatrics and athleticism, and tends to favor traditional roles of hero and villain. It was wildly popular in the [[American South]] throughout the twentieth century, where it was produced by the [[National Wrestling Alliance]], [[Jim Crockett Promotions]], and early [[World Championship Wrestling]].

Another type, rarely found in [[North America]], is '''strong style''' wrestling (also see ''[[Puroresu]]''), which forgoes elaborate characterizations in favor of athletic prowess. This is very popular in [[Japan]] as the fighters use [[martial arts]] strikes and complex [[Submission (combat sport)|submission]] moves. Promotions using this include [[Pro Wrestling NOAH]] and [[New Japan Pro Wrestling]]. An extension of this, with legitimate maneuvers actually applied, is known as '''[[shoot style]]''', and was pioneered by [[Universal Wrestling Federation (Japan)|Universal Wrestling Federation]].

Another style which emphasizes high levels of brutality, focusing on use of weapons and unusual environment elements for heightened violence, is called '''extreme''', '''hardcore''', '''combat''', ''''garbage'''' or '''ultra-violent wrestling'''. It also incorporates legitimately dangerous stunts, such as falls from high places onto [[folding tables]].

'''King's Road''' is a variant of Japanese ''proresu'' which builds up long matches filled with dramatic tension from the physical struggles. This style was pioneered by [[All Japan Pro Wrestling]].

While some promotions specialize in one specific style, others produce events with a more diverse array that appeals to varied tastes. [[Extreme Championship Wrestling]], for instance, is commonly known as a pioneer of the hardcore style, but its product is best described as Southern style with less emphasis on the hero/villain dichotomy. [[Lucha libre]] has elements of sports entertainment (masks and midget wrestlers) but also puts focus on a wrestler's athletic prowess and matches can often have dire results, including loss of hair.

==Staged nature of professional wrestling==
{{Main article|kayfabe|shoot (professional wrestling)}}
Throughout the history of professional wrestling, the utmost care was taken to ensure that the staged nature of professional wrestling was kept secret to the audience, a concept known as [[kayfabe]] or "[[work (professional wrestling)|working]] the [[mark (victim)|marks]]". Kayfabe was largely broken down by the steroid trials of the World Wrestling Federation (now referred to as [[World Wrestling Entertainment]]) and the advent of the Internet in the 1990s. However, this changed little of how wrestling is produced. Like those of film and theatre, the professional wrestling audience overlooks the inner workings of the performance, invoking [[suspension of disbelief]] and allowing for [[dramatic license]].

Occasionally a performer will deviate from the intended sequence of events. This is known as a [[shoot (professional wrestling)|shoot]]. Sometimes shoot-like elements are included in wrestling stories to blur the line between performance and reality. These are known as "worked-shoots". However, the vast majority of events in professional wrestling are entirely preplanned.

== Rules ==
The simulated nature of professional wrestling is only one of the many differences it has with traditional wrestling. Other differences may vary from company to company. Some examples of this would be the 6 sided ring in TNA or the stipulation heavy WWE.

Matches are held between two or more sides. Each side may consist of one wrestler, or a team of two or more. Most team matches are held by tag team rules (see below). Other matches are free-for-alls, with multiple combatants but no teams. In all variants, there can be only one winning team or wrestler.

The assigned [[Referee (professional wrestling)|referee]] is often the one who controls the outcome of the matches, and separates any unnecessarily rough engagement between the two combatants. In multi-man lucha libre matches, two referees are used, one inside the ring and one outside. Many different rules apply in wrestling for being a referee, just as in other sports, such as calling matches fairly for both opponents and not favoring one over the other. It is illegal for a referee to get physically involved in any match. If this is done it could result in being fired. However, these are "rules" of a performance, which can be ignored completely if dramatically justifiable -- see [[Referee (professional wrestling)#Special Referee|Special Guest Referee]].

The standard winning condition in wrestling is the pinning of the opponent's shoulders to the mat for a length of three seconds, which is determined only by the referee. In addition to pinfall, a match can be won by [[Professional wrestling#Submission|submission]], [[Professional wrestling#Countout|count-out]], [[Professional wrestling#Disqualification|disqualification]], or failure to answer a ten count.

Punching is always permitted and will have no repercussions, although WWE refs will admonish a punching wrestler and demand an open hand slap. In addition, wrestlers may kick with any part of their foot, and "low blow" only refers to actually [[groin attack|striking the crotch]]. If either wrestler is in contact with the ropes or if any part of the wrestler is underneath the ropes, all contact between the wrestlers must be broken before the count of five. This strategy is often used in order to escape from a [[Grappling hold|submission hold]], and also, more seldom, a wrestler can place his foot on (or under) the ropes to avoid losing by pinfall. This is often referred to unofficially as a '''rope break'''. Participants may try to abuse these rules, and it will often result in verbal or physical sparring with the referee.

===Draw===
A professional wrestling match can end in a draw. A draw occurs if both opponents are simultaneously disqualified (as via [[Professional wrestling#Countout|count-out]]), neither opponent is able to answer a ten-count, or both opponents simultaneously win the match. The latter can occur if, for example, one opponent's shoulders touch the mat while maintaining a submission hold against another opponent. If the opponent in the hold begins to [[Submission (combat sport term)|tap out]] at the same time a referee counts to three for pinning the opponent delivering the hold, both opponents have legally achieved victory conditions simultaneously. A title or belt may not change hands in the event of a draw in most cases. Though some promotions, such as [[TNA Wrestling]] have endorsed rules where the champion may lose a title by disqualification.

===Pinfall===
{{Main|Pin (professional wrestling)}}
In order to win by pinfall, a wrestler must pin both his opponent's shoulders against the mat while the referee slaps the mat three times. This is the most common form of defeat. If a wrestler's shoulders are down (both shoulders touching the mat) and any part of the opponent's body is lying over the opponent, it is completely legal for the three count to be made. Illegal pinning methods include using the ropes for leverage and hooking the opponent's pants, therefore they are popular cheating methods for [[Heel (professional wrestling)|heels]], unless certain stipulations make such an advantage legal. Such pins as these are rarely seen by the referee and are subsequently often used by heels and on occasion by cheating faces to win matches.

Occasionally, there are instances where a pinfall is made where both wrestler's shoulders were on the mat for the three count. This situation will most likely lead to a draw, and in some cases a continuation of the match or a future match to determine the winner. A winner will possibly be crowned at the following Pay Per View or sometime else in the future.

===Submission===
[[Image:Cenastfu.jpg|thumb|300px|[[John Cena]] applying his submission maneuver, the [[Professional wrestling holds#STS|STFU]], on [[Dave Bautista|Batista]].]]
To win by submission, the wrestler must make his opponent give up, usually, but not necessarily, by putting him in a submission hold (i.e., leg-lock, arm-lock, etc.).

Passing out in a submission hold constitutes a loss by [[knockout]]. To determine if a wrestler has passed out in WWE, the referee usually picks up and drops his hand. If it drops three consecutive times without the wrestler having the strength to stop it from falling, the wrestler is considered to have passed out. At one point this was largely ignored, however the rule is now much more commonly observed for safety reasons. If the wrestler has considered to have passed out the opponent then wins the match up by submission.

Also, a wrestler can indicate a submission by "[[Submission (combat sport term)|tapping out]]"<ref>[http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/pro-wrestling2.htm Rules of professional wrestling]</ref>, that is, tapping a free hand against the mat or against an opponent. The tap-out was always a big part of Professional wrestling, however following the decline of the submission-oriented catch-as-catch-can style from mainstream professional wrestling, the tap out largely faded. Despite this, some wrestlers, such as [[Ric Flair]], [[Kurt Angle]], [[Chris Benoit]], [[Ken Shamrock]], and [[Bret Hart]], became famous for winning matches via submission. Much like traditional finisher maneuvers, a wrestler with a finisher submission is shown as better at applying the move, making it more difficult to get out of, despite some obvious similarity.

===Countout===
A countout (alternatively "count-out" or "count out") happens when a wrestler is out of the ring long enough for the referee to count to ten (occasionally twenty). The count is broken and re-started when a wrestler in the ring exits the ring. A wrestler entering the ring does not break the count for a wrestler outside the ring. If both wrestlers are outside the ring, the count refers to both. A common tactic, to buy more time outside the ring, is for one wrestler to re-enter the ring to restart the count and then immediately re-exit it (referred to as "breaking the count"). If both wrestlers remain outside at the count of ten, both are counted out in what is known as a "double countout" or "impossible draw".

If both wrestlers are lying on the mat and not moving, the referee may issue a ten count for them to get back to their feet. Either wrestler reaching their knees will break the count. If neither wrestler reaches their knees or feet, it is considered a draw, known as a double knockout or, incorrectly, an "in ring count-out."

The countout rule also indicates that a wrestler cannot win a match while any part of his opponent's body is not in the ring. This allows escape from [[Pin (wrestling)|pinfalls]] and submission holds by putting any part of the body on the ring ropes.

The referee, in certain promotions, does not instigate a count despite wrestler's being out of the ring. This is usually after a large bump, where both wrestlers are taken down. This is, in [[kayfabe]], to allow the contest to continue as neither wrestler would benefit from the count due to both wrestlers being incapacitated temporarily.

===Disqualification===
Disqualification from a match is called for a number of reasons:

*Performing any illegal holds or maneuvers, such as refusing to break a hold when an opponent is in the ropes, hair-pulling, choking or biting an opponent, or repeatedly punching with a closed fist. These violations are usually subject to a referee-administered five count and will result in disqualification if not released before.
*Attacking an opponent's eye, such as raking it, poking it, [[eye-gouging|gouging it]], punching it out or other severe attacks to the eye.
*Any outside interference involving a person not involved in the match striking or holding a wrestler. If a heel attempts to interfere but is ejected from the ring by a wrestler or referee before this occurs, there is usually no disqualification. In this disqualification method, the wrestler being attacked by the foreign member is awarded the win.
*Striking an opponent with a [[Foreign object (professional wrestling)|foreign object]] (unless the rules of the match specifically allow this).
*A direct [[groin attack|low blow to the groin]] (unless the rules of the match specifically allow this).
*Intentionally laying hands on the referee or to an extreme case, often in special referee matches, laying any body parts on the referee.
*Pulling an opponent's wrestling trunks for a pinfall during a match (although this usually just results in nullification of the pinfall).
*Pulling an opponent's mask off during a match (this is illegal in Mexico).
*Throwing your opponent over the top rope (this was illegal in [[NWA]], but is rarely used now).
*In a [[Royal rumble]],it is illegal to enter the ring before your due entrance. This rule was announced at the [[2008 Royal Rumble]] when [[Finlay]] entered to save his ([[kayfabe]]) son [[Hornswoggle]].

In practice, the rules of the fight are often violated without disqualification due to the referee being distracted and not seeing the offense, or the referee seeing the offense but allowing the match to continue. In WWE, a referee must see the violation with his own eyes to rule that the match end in a disqualification and the referee's ruling is almost always final. It is not uncommon for the referees themselves to get knocked out during a match. While the referee remains "unconscious", rules are often violated at will. In some cases, a referee might disqualify a person under the presumption that it was that wrestler who knocked him out; most referee knockouts are arranged to allow a wrestler, usually a heel, to gain an advantage. For example, a wrestler may get whipped into a referee at a slower speed, knocking the ref down for short amount of time; during that interim period, one wrestler may pin his opponent for a three-count and would have won the match but for the referee being down. Also, the referee rarely disqualifies the wrestler who knocked him down when the referee recovers.

If all participants in a match continue to breach the referee's instructions, the match may end in a double disqualification, where both wrestlers or teams (in a [[tag team]] match) have been disqualified. The match is essentially nullified, and called a draw or in some cases a restart or the same match being held at a Pay Per View or next nights show.

In most wrestling promotions, a [[championship (professional wrestling)|championship]] cannot change hands as a result of a disqualifications, often referred to as the "champions advantage." Playing into this, some heel wrestlers will attempt to "get themselves disqualified" to "protect" their championships.

A relatively recent trend in wrestling has been the development of the no-disqualification (or [[Hardcore wrestling|Hardcore]]) match. This type of match became increasingly prominent during the 1990s, and was a particular feature of the [[Extreme Championship Wrestling|Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW)]] promotion. When WWE (then WWF) unveiled its new [[Wwe#Attitude Era|'Attitude' era]] in 1997, the no-disqualification match was used as a centerpiece for this new design of wrestling, and a [[WWE Hardcore Championship|Hardcore Title]] was offered between 1998 and 2002. Completely new matches developed from the Hardcore/no-DQ match, including:

*Ladder match (participants must post a ladder in the middle of the ring and climb it to grasp a hanging object - usually a title belt).
*Tables, Ladders, and Chairs (a ladder match where all three items may be used as a weapon against an opponent).
*Hardcore match (a no-disqualification match where falls count anywhere, even out of the venue).

===Tag rules===
In some team matches, only one entrant from each team may be designated as the 'legal' or 'active' wrestler at any given moment. Two wrestlers must make physical contact (typically palm-to-palm) in order to transfer this legal status. This is known as a '''tag''', with the participants ''tagging out'' and ''tagging in''.

The non-legal wrestlers must remain outside the ring or other legal area at all times (and avoid purposeful contact with the opposing wrestlers) or face reprimand from the referee. In most promotions, the wrestler to be tagged in must be touching the turnbuckle on his corner, or a cloth strap attached to the turnbuckle.

Some multi-wrestler matches allow for a set number of legal wrestlers, and a legal wrestler may tag out to any other wrestler, regardless of team. In these matches, the tag need not be a mutual effort, and this results in active wrestlers being tagged out against their will.

==Dramatic elements==
While each wrestling match is ostensibly a competition of athletics and strategy, the goal of each match from a business standpoint is to excite and entertain the audience. Although the competition is staged, [[drama]]tic emphasis can be utilized to draw out the most intense reaction from the audience. Heightened interest results in higher attendance rates, increased ticket sales, higher ratings on [[television broadcast]]s (which result in greater [[Television advertising|ad revenue]]), higher [[pay-per-view]] buyrates, and sales of branded merchandise and recorded video footage. All of these contribute to the [[profit]] of the promotion company.

===Character===
In Japan, most matches are treated as pure sport with seriousness of purpose (See [[Puroresu]]).

In Latin America and English-speaking countries, most wrestlers (and other on-stage performers) portray [[Persona|character]] roles, sometimes with personalities wildly different from their own. These personalities are a [[gimmick]] intended to heighten interest in a wrestler without regard to athletic ability. Some can be unrealistic and [[cartoon]]-like, while others carry more verisimilitude. In [[lucha libre]], many characters wear masks, adopting a [[secret identity]] akin to a [[super hero]], a near-sacred tradition, sometimes going beyond kayfabe.

An individual wrestler may keep one persona for his entire career, or may change from time to time to better suit the demands of the audience or company. Sometimes a character is owned and trademarked by the company, forcing the wrestler to find a new one when he leaves, and sometimes a character is owned by the wrestler. Many wrestlers are strongly identified with their character, even responding to the name in public or between friends. A professional wrestling character's popularity can grow to the point that it makes appearances in other media (see [[Hulk Hogan]], [[El Santo]]) or even give the performer enough visibility to enter [[politics]] ([[Antonio Inoki]] and [[Jesse Ventura]], among others).

Typically, matches are staged between a [[protagonist]] (historically an audience favorite, known as a [[face (professional wrestling)|face]], or "the good guy") and an [[antagonist]] (historically a villain with arrogance, a tendency to break rules, or other unlikable qualities, called a [[heel (professional wrestling)|heel]]). In recent years, however, [[anti-heroes]] have also become prominent in professional wrestling. There are also a rarely seen position in which a character would fall in between the two spectrums, carrying the traits of both face and heel and being able to have fans that like him and those that hate him. This is, in most circles, referred to as a "tweener". It is not uncommon to see two faces in a match against each other, or two heels against each other. In these cases, fans usually will cheer for the one that they believe is the "lesser of the two evils".

Finally, there are times in which a face or a heel will make a "face/heel [[List of professional wrestling slang#t|turn]]", in which a wrestler will do something that will make the fans begin to root for them or to give them heat. A heel turn would include anything that the fans would dislike and not expect their "hero" to do, such as turning their backs on the fans or a likeable friend of the wrestler. One of the most famous heel turns is the Hulk Hogan heel turn at WCW Bash At The Beach 1996 by joining the "[[New World Order (professional wrestling)|New World Order]]", shocking a huge fan base because of his long run as being a face (about ten consecutive years) and how much of a following he had gained during that time. In contrast, a face turn would occur by a heel accomplishing something that gains the fans respect, either by helping out a likeable face, facing a heel in which the fans dislike more, giving respect to a face after losing a tough fought match (sometimes this reason may also start a "friendship" between the two participants), dissenting himself with a manager or partner that was also heel for any reason (usually for causing a loss via error), or by gaining respect by the crowd for any other reason. In both a face/heel turn, the turn could happen as sudden as one show (a [[List of professional wrestling slang#t|hard turn]] or a [[List of professional wrestling slang#s|swerve]]), or stretched out as a gradual increase or decrease of support over several shows (a [[List of professional wrestling slang#t|soft turn]]), with the climax being the changeover becoming complete.

===Story===
While true [[exhibition match]]es are not uncommon, most matches tell a story analogous to a [[scene (fiction)|scene]] in a [[play]] or [[film]], or an [[episode]] of a [[serial drama]]: The face will win ([[hero|triumph]]) or lose ([[tragedy]]). Longer [[story arcs]] can result from multiple matches over the course of time. Since most promotions have a championship title, competition for the championship is a common impetus for stories. Also, anything from a character's own hair to his job with the promotion can be [[wager]]ed in a match.

Some matches are designed to further a story of only one participant. It could be intended to portray him or her as a strong unstoppable force, a lucky underdog, a sore loser, or any other characterization. Sometimes non-wrestling [[vignette]]s are shown in order to enhance a character's image without the need for matches.

Other stories result from a natural rivalry between two or more characters. Outside of performance, these are referred to as [[feud (professional wrestling)|feuds]]. A feud can exist between any number of participants and can last for a few days up to multiple decades. The career-spanning history between characters [[Mike Awesome]] and [[Masato Tanaka]] is an example of a long-running feud.

In theory, the longer a feud is built up, the more audience interest (aka [[heat (professional wrestling)|heat]]) will exist. The [[main event]] of a wrestling show is generally the one with the most heat behind it. Commonly, a heel will hold the upper hand over a face until a final showdown, heightening dramatic tension as the face's fans desire to see him win.

Since the advent of television, many other elements have been utilized to tell story within a professional wrestling setting: pre- and post-match [[interview]]s, "backstage" [[skit]]s, positions of authority, division rankings (typically the #1-contendership spot), contracts, lotteries, and even news stories on promotion websites.

Also, anything that can be used as an element of drama can exist in professional wrestling stories: [[romantic relationship]]s (including [[love triangle]]s and [[marriage]]), [[racism]], [[classism]], [[nepotism]], [[favoritism]], family bonds, personal histories, [[grudge]]s, [[theft]], [[cheating]], [[assault]], [[betrayal]], [[bribery]], [[seduction]], [[confidence tricks]], [[extortion]], [[blackmail]], [[substance abuse]]; even [[paedophilia]], [[kidnapping]], [[misogyny]], [[rape]] and [[death]] have been portrayed in wrestling. Some promotions have included [[supernatural]] elements such as [[Magic (paranormal)|magic]], [[curse]]s, the [[undead]] and [[satanic]] imagery.

[[Sports commentator|Commentators]] have become important in communicating the relevance of the characters' actions to the story at hand, filling in past details and pointing out subtle actions that may otherwise go unnoticed.

===Non-standard matches===
Often a match will take place under additional rules, usually serving as a special attraction or a climactic point in a feud or storyline. Sometimes this will be the culmination of an entire feud, ending it for the immediate future (known as a blowoff match).

Perhaps the most well-known non-standard match is the [[cage match]], in which the ring is surrounded by a fence or similar metal structure, with the express intention of preventing escape or outside interference -- and with the added bonus of the cage being a potentially brutal weapon or platform for launching attacks.

Another example is the [[Royal Rumble]] match, which involves thirty participants in a random and unknown order. The Rumble match is itself a spectacle in that it is a once-yearly event with multiple participants, including individuals who might not interact otherwise. But it also serves as a catalyst for the company's ongoing feuds, as well as a springboard for new storylines -- most importantly determining the main event at the following WrestleMania.

===Ring entrance===
[[Image:Triple H Entrance Sequence Melbourne 10.11.2007.jpg|thumb|450px|right|[[Triple H]] performing his iconic ring entrance pose, mounting the second rope and displaying his muscularity with the arena darkened and strobing colored lights]]
While the wrestling matches themselves are the primary focus of professional wrestling, a key dramatic element of the business can be entrances of the wrestlers to the arena and ring. It is typical for a wrestler to get their biggest crowd reaction (or 'pop') for their ring entrance, rather than for anything they do in the wrestling match itself.

All notable wrestlers now enter the ring accompanied by music, and regularly add other elements to their entrance too. The music played on the ring entrance will usually be something that tries to develop the wrestler's character. Many wrestlers, particularly in the WWE, have music and lyrics especially written for their ring entrance. While not invented at this time, the practice of including music with the entrance gained rapid popularity during the 1980s, largely as a result of the huge success of [[Hulk Hogan]] and the WWF, and their [[1980s wrestling boom#The Rock 'n' Wrestling Connection|Rock 'n' Wrestling Connection]].

Other dramatic elements of a ring entrance can include:
*a distinct sound or opening note in the music used to elicit a [[Classical conditioning|Pavlovian]] response from the crowd (examples include the shattering glass of [[Stone Cold Steve Austin]], the tolling bell of [[The Undertaker]], the giggle of [[Trish Stratus]], and the heartbeat shortening into a [[flatline]] from [[Tazz]]);
*[[pyrotechnics]] or smoke;
*complete darkening of the arena, often accompanied by [[Stage lighting|mood lighting]] or [[strobe light]]ing (examples include the entrances of [[Triple H]], The Undertaker, and [[Glen Jacobs|Kane]]);
*entering the arena or ring in a manner in keeping with their character and its traits, such as a highly energetic entrance, or a slow paced, controlled entrance;
*driving some sort of motor vehicle into the arena (examples include [[Eddie Guerrero]] entering in a [[lowrider]], [[John "Bradshaw" Layfield]] entering in a limo, [[Deuce & Domino]] entering in a [[1950s]] [[Cadillac]], [[The Mexicools]] entering on lawn mowers, and a number of wrestlers riding motorcycles to the ring);
*wrestlers including some type of trademark behaviour or signal to the crowd, such as posing to display their [[Bodybuilding|muscularity]], or mounting the ring ropes;
*talking to the crowd on the microphone following their entrance to further their character in some way, and as a way of eliciting [[Heat (professional wrestling)|heat]].
*A wrestler coming through the crowd of fans in the stands, such [[Jim Fullington|The Sandman's]] beer drinking and can smashing entrance, or [[Diamond Dallas Page|DDP's]] exit through the crowd.
Some of the bigger stars in the industry, such as Triple H and The Undertaker, can perform ring entrances lasting up to three minutes or more. It is not uncommon for ring entrances to sometimes last longer than the match itself, especially in matches involving a mismatch.

Special ring entrances are also sometimes developed for big occasions, most notably the [[WrestleMania]] event. [[WrestleMania III]] for example saw all wrestlers enter the arena on motorized miniature wrestling rings, Kane entered [[WrestleMania XX]] with a burning [[New York City]] behind him while The Undertaker walked through a [[druid]] 'guard of honor', and [[John Cena]] entered [[WrestleMania 23]] in a [[Shelby Mustang#2006 Shelby GT-H|Mustang]] that was driven at high speed through the streets of [[Detroit, Michigan|Detroit]] as part of the entrance, purportedly by Cena himself. [[Shawn Michaels]] rode a zip line down to the ring before his hour long match with [[Bret Hart]] at [[WrestleMania 12]].

==Wrestlers==
===Men's wrestling===
The vast majority of professional wrestlers are men, especially in the North American [[World Wrestling Entertainment|WWE]], where they are usually large in size, often to extremes. Notable examples include [[André the Giant]], [[Hulk Hogan]], [[Paul Wight|Paul "Big Show" Wight]], [[Dave Bautista|Batista]], [[The Undertaker]], [[Rodney Anoa'i|Yokozuna]], [[Giant Gonzales]], [[The Great Khali]], [[Umaga]], and [[Glen Jacobs|Kane]]. Usually, competitions or divisions are set up for men of similar wrestling styles, such as technical, brawling, high flying, lucha and hardcore. However, matches involving different weight divisions are often created and are never referred to as unusual or against any rules, despite large differences in height or strength. Rarely, men and women will sometimes wrestle each other.

===Women's wrestling===
{{see also|WWE Diva|TNA Knockout}}

The women’s division of professional wrestling has maintained a recognized world champion since the mid-1950s, when the first [[NWA World Women's Championship]] was crowned (later the [[WWE Women's Championship]]). Traditionally, women’s matches were lower on the card and rarely considered main event material in the United States. Through the 1980s, women’s wrestling in the US was presented as a serious sport on the same level as men’s wrestling. It was not until the late 1990s that [[World Wrestling Entertainment]] began to present their women’s division with a focus on the women as "Divas" and eye-candy rather than athletes. Many of the women acted as [[managers]] and [[valet (professional wrestling)|valets]] and had little training in wrestling{{Fact|date=June 2007}}, although there was a brief period in the early-2000's where the women's championship division on WWE's flagship show [[WWE Raw|RAW]] was once again promoted as a serious sport.

There are several other promotions where women’s wrestling is still presented and promoted as a serious sport. In the US, [[Shimmer Women Athletes|SHIMMER Women Athletes]] is an all-female pro-wrestling promotion considered on par with male wrestling. In the UK ChickFight are the leading company in women's professional wrestling again considered on par if not superior to male wrestling. In Japan, women’s wrestling has a long established history, with an all female promotion founded as early as 1955 (the predecessor to [[All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling]]), and has always been presented as a serious, highly athletic sport on the same level as their male counterparts. In some promotions, like [[Frontier Martial-Arts Wrestling]], where the focus was on "Hardcore" matches, female performers like Ashley Courtnage, Shark Tsuchiya, ”Combat” Toyota and [[Megumi Kudo]] also participated. The latter two headlined one of FMW’s largest cards in an "Exploding No Rope Barbed Wire Deathmatch." In the late 1990s, the two largest Japanese female federations closed, but females still compete in various other federations.

===Midget wrestling===
{{see|Midget wrestling}}

Midget wrestling can be traced to professional wrestling's carnival and vaudeville origins. In recent years, the popularity and prevalence of midgets in wrestling has greatly decreased due to wrestling companies depriving midget divisions of storyline and/or feud. However, WWE's ''[[WWE Friday Night SmackDown!|SmackDown]]'' did feature a "Junior's division", for little people from 2005 to 2006. It is still a popular form of entertainment in Mexican wrestling, mostly as a "sideshow."

Some wrestlers may have their own specific "mini me", like Mascarada Sagrada and his midget counterpart Mascarita Sagrada, Alebrije has Quije, etc. There are also cases in which midgets can become valets for a wrestler, and even get physically involved in matches, like Alushe, who often accompanies [[Tinieblas]], or Kemonito, who is portrayed as Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre's mascot and is also a valet for Mistico. World Wrestling Entertainment's [[Dave Finlay]] is often aided in his matches by a midget known mainly as [[Dylan Postl|Hornswoggle]], who hides under the ring and gives a [[Shillelagh (club)|shillelagh]] to Finlay to use on his opponent. Finlay also occasionally throws him at his opponent(s). Hornswoggle has also been given a run with the [[WWE Cruiserweight Championship|Cruiserweight Championship]], and it has since been revealed that he is the ([[kayfabe]]) son of Finlay.

===Intergender wrestling===
For most of its history, women and men would never compete against each other in professional wrestling, as it was deemed to be unfair and unchivalrous. [[Andy Kaufman]] used this to gain notoriety when he created an Intergender Championship and declared it open to any female challenger. This led to a long feud with [[Jerry Lawler]].

In the 1980s, intergender tag team matches began to take place, with a male and female on each team and a rule that stated only the males and females could attack each other. If a tag was made, the other team had to automatically switch their legal wrestler too.

Intergender singles bouts were first fought on a national level in the 1990s. This began with [[Luna Vachon]], who faced men (and usually defeated them) in both ECW and WWF. Later, [[Chyna]] became the first female to hold a heavyweight belt that was not exclusive to women when she won the [[WWE Intercontinental Championship|WWF Intercontinental Championship]] .

===Independent Wrestlers===
Unlike most other sports, the essence of Pro Wrestling's roots can still be seen all over the country. Independent Wrestling Circuits (or Leagues, Federations, or Promotions) can be found in almost any community in the United States, with some cities having numerous leagues using many of the same wrestlers as other nearby leagues. Many promotions have events at National Guard Armories, Recreation Centers, secondary schools, flea markets, churches, bars, and shopping center parking lots. Production values are almost always low, promotion is done by word of mouth, flyers, cable access television, and the internet, and many of the "workers" aren't as chiseled as the ones on television broadcasts. Still, many local wrestlers are extremely talented, with some grapplers' techniques and charisma surpassing some of those on broadcasts of the WWE or TNA. Independent wrestlers normally have "shoot jobs" and usually wrestle for the love of the business only, since most paydays are pretty low ($10-$20 for most wrestlers... and up to $100 or so for bigger draws). Sometimes workers from television broadcasts work Independent shows, generally resulting in a good payday for the league.

===Select active wrestling federations and promotions===
'''Major American Organizations'''
*[[Total Nonstop Action Wrestling]] (TNA)
*[[World Wrestling Entertainment]] (WWE)

'''Independent Promotions'''
*[[Chikara (professional wrestling)|CHIKARA]]
*[[Combat Zone Wrestling]] (CZW)
*[[Juggalo Championship Wrestling]] (JCW)
*[[National Wrestling Alliance]] (NWA)
*[[Pro Wrestling Guerrilla]] (PWG)
*[[Ring of Honor]] (ROH)
* Mainstream Wrestling (MSW)
* Rocky Top Wrestling (RTW)

'''Puroresu'''
*[[All Japan Pro Wrestling]] (AJPW)
*[[Big Japan Pro Wrestling]] (BJW)
*[[New Japan Pro Wrestling]] (NJPW)
*[[Pro Wrestling NOAH]]
*[[Pro Wrestling ZERO1-MAX]]

'''Lucha Libre'''
*[[Asistencia Asesoría y Administración]] (AAA)
*[[Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre]] (CMLL)

== See also ==
*[[History of professional wrestling]]

===Terminology===
*[[Foreign object (professional wrestling)|Foreign object]]s (e.g. [[folding chair]])
*[[Professional wrestling aerial techniques]] (e.g. [[Shooting star press]], [[Moonsault]])
*[[Professional wrestling attacks]] (e.g. [[Leg drop]], [[Superkick]])
*[[Professional wrestling double-team maneuvers]] (e.g. [[Doomsday Device]])
*[[Professional wrestling holds]] (e.g. [[Boston crab]], [[Mandible claw]], [[Pinfall (professional wrestling)|Pinfall]], [[Sharpshooter (professional wrestling)|Sharpshooter]])
*[[List of professional wrestling match types]]
*[[Professional wrestling tag team match types]]
*[[Professional wrestling tournament]]
*[[List of professional wrestling slang]]
*[[Professional wrestling throws]] (e.g. [[Backbreaker]], [[Brainbuster]], [[Chokeslam]], [[Cutter (professional wrestling)|Cutter]], [[DDT (professional wrestling)|DDT]], [[Facebuster]], [[Neckbreaker]], [[Piledriver (professional wrestling)|Piledriver]], [[Powerbomb]], [[Powerslam]], [[Stunner (professional wrestling)|Stunner]], [[Suplex]])

===Professional wrestling worldwide===
*[[Professional wrestling in Australia]]
*[[Professional wrestling in Japan]]
*[[Lucha libre|Professional wrestling in Mexico]]
*[[Professional wrestling in United Kingdom]]
*[[Professional wrestling in the United States]]
*[[Professional Wrestling in South Africa]]

===Lists of wrestlers===
*[[List of professional wrestlers]]
*[[List of professional wrestling stables]]

===Types of professional wrestling===
*[[Professional wrestling in the United States|American]]
*[[Puroresu]]
*[[Lucha libre]]

===Fantasy professional wrestling===
*[[Fantasy wrestling|E-wrestling]]

===Radio programs===
*[[Dave Meltzer#Wrestling Observer Live|Wrestling Observer Live]]
*[[talkSPORT]]
*[http://www.4swf.com Smart Wrestling Fan Wrestling Review Show Podcast]
*[http://www.wrestling-radio.com Wrestling-Radio]
*[http://www.liveaudiowrestling.com/ Live Audio Wrestling]
*[http://www.feelthepain.net/ The Pain Clinic]
*[http://www.hardcoresportsradio.com/ Fight Network Radio]
*[http://www.wrestling-news.com/ The Minoriity Report]
*[http://www.ctiradio.com/ The Minority Roundtable]

===In fiction===
*[[Marvel Comics]]' [[Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation]]

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
{{Portal|Professional wrestling|break=yes}}
*[http://www.houseofdeception.com/Pro_Wrestling_History.html House of Deception] Golden Age 1911-1979: bibliography, photos, etc.
*[http://www.riverhorse.tv/CATCH/ website of documentary Catch - the hold not taken on the history of pro wrestling]
*[http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com OnlineWorldofWrestling.com - The Online World of Wrestling]
*[http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com ProWrestlingHistory.com]
*[http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-41-1237/sports/prowrestling/ CBC Digital Archives - Cross-Country Smackdown: Pro Wrestling in Canada]
*[http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~ikalmar/illustex/Barthes-wrestling.htm The World of Wrestling] by [[Roland Barthes]] (1984)


{{Professional wrestling in Canada}}
{{Professional wrestling in Japan}}
{{Professional wrestling in Mexico}}
{{Professional wrestling in South Africa}}

{{Professional wrestling in the United States}}

[[Category:Wrestling]]

User talk:Trajork

2008-03-16T03:17:28Z

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==Friendly warning==

I noticed you tried to make the article [[Communism]] more encyclopedic.

If you want to survive here its best to avoid the three '''S'''s: [[Sex|Sexuality]], [[Science]] and [[Religion|Spirituality]]. If you edit a subject related to sex, science or religion in a manner that a sysop doesn't approve of you could be in bother no matter how well sourced your "facts" may be. This also includes the one '''P''': [[politics]].

I suggest you note the following policy at [[Conservapedia:Locks and Blocks]] in order to avoid future dissapointment
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:Note: ''Their <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Special:Listusers%26group%3Dsysop|sysops]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> instructions, as to Conservapedia policy [...] are to be followed'', which means if a sysop has decided it is so it is so. If you argue you may get blocked. [[User:Auld Nick|Auld Nick]] 13:57, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

::What went wrong? You Ask. Nothing went wrong. You simply interfered with someone's personal blog page (these are also known as articles here). Other well known blog pages Are [[Theory of evolution]], [[Abortion]] and [[Gay wrongs]]. Template:tfa can be very bloggy too. That's how things work around here. The only rule that really counts is the one above. All the same, I hope you enjoy your stay. [[User:Auld Nick|Auld Nick]] 04:27, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Main Page/Development

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Talk:Main Page/archive10

2008-03-16T03:17:23Z

DHayes: Since "Template:Tfa" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #31 on the Wanted List.)

==Blacks recruited for terror by al-Qaida==
Islamic terrorism analysts point out that al-Qaida's racial history lessons conveniently leave out the fact that Arab Muslim slave traders sold Africans into bondage. [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55796 Blacks recruited for terror by al-Qaida] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 11:48, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

:First and foremost, the Nation of Islam |= Islam in general. The Nation of Islam is its own religious politcal movement, and isn't representative of mainstream Islam. Secondly, the bit about Arab slave traders selling Africans into bondage is a nice little jab, though an extremely hypocritical one. Compared to the Triangle trade, Arab slave trading was practically non existent. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 12:27, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

==Al Qaeda torture methods==
Let's see if the MSM has a problem with the Al Qaeda torture methods[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275341,00.html ‘How-to’ Manual Found in Al Qaeda Safe House Shows Disturbing Torture Methods] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 19:06, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
:If you can stand to see the actual torture manual [http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,1783,00.html WARNING: This material contains graphic and disturbing images] the last pages show rescued Iraqi Torture victims and evidence of their torture.

Wow, thanks. I don't think I'll put that on our front page, however. It's informative enough here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:52, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

== Today ==
The 25th started the [[Battle of Dunkirk]] in 1940. Should it be included?[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 23:15, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

: Superb idea. I'll post it now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:54, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
::I actually meant in the "Today in History" section, but this is even better.[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 00:06, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
:::It currently says the battle was between British and French soldiers, this needs to be corrected please. :-) [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 06:11, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Altered the sentence to clarify [[User:Fox|Fox]] 06:15, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
:::::Hmmm, maybe I'm doing something wrong. It still says "On May 25, 1940, the Battle of Dunkirk continued between British and French soldiers during World War II." [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 07:43, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
::::::Ah, I see. The main page doesn't call its text directly from the relevant article, which is what I had altered :/ [[User:Fox|Fox]] 08:02, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

*Only Sysops can edit the Main Page, is why. ;-) --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 08:06, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
**Understandable. May I suggest simply removing "between British and French soldiers"? [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 08:09, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
::*How is that? --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 08:15, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
:::Better, thanks. [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 08:28, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

== Article of the day ==

How about a little section for "Suggested Article of the day"?

It is a way to show the best we have.

--[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 23:49, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

: Great idea. Actually, Joaquin, as a Sysop you can post directly on the main page an article that you find noteworthy. Simply go to [[Editing main page]] and pick the second entry for breaking news. Thanks and Godspeed to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:54, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

== Do this site's sysops have an anti-Iraq War bias? ==

I just wanted to express newfound concern on what I believe to be another attempt by the sysops at criticizing the Iraq War. The earlier reference to an "endless troop commitment in Iraq" (see my above section) coupled with the current Breaking News story referring to a "war cabal" appear to me to constitute a subtle but deliberate anti-war message, even though at first glance the two stories are critical of democrats. I would like to know who all the sysops are and what their backgrounds are, so we can determine if perhaps there is a mole. The only other possibility is that the terms "endless troop commitment in Iraq" and "war cabal" are being used sarcastically to bring attention to the democrats who have voted for a bill that funds the war they are publically opposed to. If this is the case, then I have to question whether this encyclopedia can call itself "trustworthy", since I don't believe the use of sarcasm is appropriate for a learning resource.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 16:59, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

: The front page news section will continue to be provocative, in a way that Wikipedia will never be. Sarcasm on the front page in the news section, used in moderation as it has been, will not be censored.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:39, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

::It is provocative indeed. The link to the Olberman comment brings you to a page titled '''The entire government has failed us on Iraq''', and is sub-titled ''For the president, and the majority leaders and candidates and rank-and-file Congressmen and Senators of either party—there is only blame for this shameful, and bi-partisan, betrayal''. If you hadn't assured us that it is not the case, I'd assume that one of the sysops wants to push an anti-war view. [[User:Order]] May 27, 13:32 (AEST)

*Well you have heard, no doubt, Order, what assuming does, right? :p --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 00:59, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

Sure, but I am certainly not the only one who had this thought. An alternative explanation would be that Conservapedia doesn't mind if an article hammers the president, the GOP, its base, and the rest of the administration, and long as it also hits some Democrats. In that spirit we can link the entire work of Michael Moore on the front-page. In color. I didn't know that the position of conservatives in the US was so bad, that conservatives don't care anymore if they get blamed for all ills, as long as some blame also goes to democrats. If all ''conviction'' is gone, and only ''Schadenfreude'' left, it. must be more miserable for the American right, than I expected. [[User:Order]] 15:30 (AEST)

* Iraq traps alQaeda. Where are the USA disasters it threatened - before President Bush pulled it's attention to Iraq?
Keep it there! Conservatives and Liberals should be happy with the protection for USA that the Iraq war gives us.(userHowardLong]

: Amen, Howard. After all, why object to a volunteer army continuing to keep order there?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:40, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

::[http://www.icasualties.org Here's a reason]

== Minimum wage and school dropouts ==

Thanks for posting the link to the article that reports on a positive correlation between a raise of the minumum wage for teenagers, and a rise in high school drop-outs. However, the front page fails to mention that the positive correlation occurs only in states in which student can drop-out before they are 18. Additional policies that make education until 18 mandatory can effectively counterbalance this undesired effect of a minimum wage increase. [[User:Order]] May 27 13:50 (AEST)

: That exception is political spin. It simply means that if dropping out is prohibited by law, then the kids won't drop out until it is allowed. In no way does that spin detract from the basic point: raising the minimum wage increases the drop-outs from school. Funny how [[liberals]] never mention that effect. Godspeed to those victims of the minimum wage later in life.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:02, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
::It's not that simple. A much more telling study would be to know the difference in income of the subset of the population for which this is a problem. In other words, the students that would drop out and get jobs due to a minimum wage increase might be the same sample of students that eventually graduate from high school but still end up in minimum wage jobs. In that case, these dropouts may be ''positively'' affected by the increase. Of course, neither I nor anyone else has performed this study, and the possible conclusion stated here might be an unlikely one. Nevertheless, it ''is'' true that a substantial number of post-secondary aged minimum wage earners have high school diplomas.

::: It is that simple. You describe a nearly impossible study, and even if it were possible the correlation you suggest (early drop-outs versus late drop-outs) would not be 100%. And even if it were 100%, the additional schooling would help, according to all studies of correlations of increased wages versus years in school.

::: Unfortunately, you're expressing the same type of liberal denial that hurts people fooled by it time and time again. Of course increasing the attractiveness of a substitute (a minimum wage job) for schooling is going to pull people away from schooling. This is basic Economics 101, and yet liberals deny it. Well, what else is new?! God help those victimized by this liberal deception.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:40, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

: Who was talking about liberals? We were discussing how a scientific paper is presented on the front page. Your interpretation of 'spin' is not shared by the authors, instead the agree to some extend with [[Kopacetic|User:Kopacetic]]. They conclude in their paper, and this is a rather long quote:
:: ''The costs and benefits of changing the minimum wage through its effect on school enrollment depend in part on the benefits of working during high school. Chaplin and Hannaway (1999) show that high school employment may be beneficial in the long run, even if it increases the risk of dropping out, especially for at-risk youth. On the other hand, most students are probably much better off staying in high school even if they are working. For these reasons we believe that our results suggest that employment policies be adjusted to better ensure that teenagers remain in high school. Increasing the drop out age would be one means of accomplishing this goal. Indeed, this result is also supported by the work of Neumark and Washer (2003).''
: According to the authors, an alternative to restricting the drop out age would be to restrict teenagers ability to work outside school. If you follow the link provided on the front page of Conservapedia, people will soon notice that the editor of Conservapedia didn't read the quoted article carefully. And fixing this would just require a minor change on the front page. Otherwise it might seem sloppy work by Conservapedia. [[User:Order]] May 27 14:40 (AEST)
::::Exactly, who was talking about liberals? It seems that nearly every place I look on Conservapedia (and I'll grant that this is a highly biased sample of pages) where rational thought is employed, it is shouted down with accusations of liberalism (that is, when the rational arguments don't seem to agree with people's rigid conservative views). But [[User:Order]] actually makes '''two''' good arguments. The second is that Economics 101 just doesn't cut it. A more critical look at how things play out is required, and that's why one line statements on the front of Conservapedia are not 'news' in any sense of the term, but instead are simply 'spin.' And I'll also invoke the Creator. May God grant all people on this Earth a liveable wage. [[user:Kopacetic| Kopacetic ]]

*I notice here [[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Communism&diff=prev&oldid=37928]] , Kopacetic, you say that communism and democracy are compatible. That example of your "reasoning" has given me a headache. Please, I beg of you, no more! --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 00:57, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

The citation is that a communist economic system, not Communism, is compatible with Democracy. That is absolutely true, and I'm sorry if the truth gives you a headache. Does that explain why you are a Conservapedia Sysop? With regards to your plea for 'no more,' I wish I could pull myself away from watching the trainwreck that is Conservapedia. Matthew 8:29.

:If you want to discuss Kopacetic's credentials, can't you better do it on his talk page. This is just distracting from the problem. And the problem is that on the main page, not just any page, there is a link to an scientific article, accompanied by a statement that shows that who ever made the statement did read neither the introduction nor the conclusion of the said scientific article. And that is sloppy, especially on the main page. [[User:Order]] May 27 3:15 (AEST)

*Order, when typing the above, did you wag your finger as well? Please give the unctuous portent a rest okay? If you look above, you will see another way a user handled pointing out something similair. It's late, and I know the mistake bothers you, but....gosh...the comments seem a bit harsh. --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 02:13, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

If you mean the "train wreck" analogy with harsh statement, I didn't make this statement, although I get why it was made. If you mean that I am harsh for observing that the front page news is inaccurate, then I have to disagree with you. There is nothing harsh about my observation that the front page quotes a scientific article inaccurately. If I say that it is sloppy, I don't mean that wrong, say morally wrong. As long as we are willing to correct those mistakes. However, it becomes questionable behavior, when somebody makes a mistake, and then puts more effort into defending his sloppiness and coming up with excuses, than it would take to fix it. [[User:Order]] May 28

== "Talking Points" ==

I've been gone for two days, so I'll post a few "talking points";
*Regarding the HPV vaccine (two girls died): how many people have died from Cervical cancer? And compared to other vaccines, how effective is this one?
*Evolutionist museum: Nice populist argument, though I doubt the 99.84% populist statistic would be allowed.
*Tell me, all: does anybody condone [http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/27/russia.gayrights.reut/index.html this]?
--[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 13:01, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
*I like this. Does anyone condone [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070527/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians these] attacks on innocent Jews?[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 13:22, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
*I know that [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/25/wsaudi25.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/25/ixnews.html this] article is old, but does anyone condone it?[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 13:27, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
:*Does anybody condone the Israeli [[Apartheid]] of Palestinians? Or the indiscriminate bombing of Lebanese cities during the 2006 conflict? --[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 13:30, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Ah, yes, [[Jimmy Carter|Jimmy]]. That "Apartheid" of the peace-loving Palestinians.[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 13:31, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

: Great points by Bohdan.

: In response to Hoji's (other) first point, there is no proof that the HPV vaccine will prevent a single death from cervical cancer. Moreover, its promoters did not disclose the deaths from the vaccine itself. Don't patients have a right to informed consent, and shouldn't politicians have checked that out before trying to make the vaccine mandatory?

: As to Hoji's 99.84% statistic, I don't know where that came from. What does that number represent?

: But Lord bless you Hoji, because I just learned that you are #3 in our ranking of the overall top editors in terms of volume of edits here. We'll be posting the top ten soon.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:32, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
:::In response to condoning your 3rd point, no violence is not good.[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 13:34, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
::::Thanks Bohdan, that is very true.
::::And as for #3, Andy, that is certainly something for me to be proud of! The 99.84% statistic is the most commonly used statistic when referring to the number of biologists who support the theory of Modern Evolutionary Synthesis. --[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 13:36, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::: Oops, I just learned that you (Hoji) are in the top ten, but a few others nose you out for #3. Still tremendous, Hoji, so thank you!

::: I bet the 99.84% number is another example of liberal [[deceit]]. Can you give me a source and I'll track it down? Remember, some liberals don't mind being deceitful, and all of us end up relying on things that are not true because of it. :-) --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:40, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::Andy, can you provide some statistics that demonstrate that liberals are more deceitful that the general population? Otherwise, a statement like "some liberals don't mind being deceitful" has as much value as "some days, the sky is cloudy." [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:15, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:Re the HPV vaccine: One not even ask what the corresponding mortality/morbidity would be from Cervical cancer, just compare the HPV vaccine to other vaccines. Take a look at Contraindications for smallpox vaccination. As many as 1 in 1000 may suffer severe reactions up to and including death, and vaccinia is considered the most successful vaccination in history. [www.aafp.org/afp/20030901/889.html]

:: Your statement is false. The death rate from the smallpox vaccine is not 1 in 1000, but is only 1 in 1 million, based on your own citation. I'm going to bother reading anything else you said unless you apologize for that misleading statement and demonstrate a willingness to be objective and competent in discussing this. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:57, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::My statement is not false, I said that the rate of severe complications is 1 in 1000, up to and including death. You're reading that as "1 in 1000 people will die." which is incorrect. Of course the death rate is going to be necessarily lower, but keep in mind that the last time that smallpox was present on the earth, AIDS was not widespread. If smallpox were to reemerge (though this would only be possible through bioterrorism at this point) then the death rate from vaccination would be considerably higher since the vaccine causes the most severe reactions in the immune compromised. Keep in mind, that the 1 in 1 million number is deaths that are known to be caused by the vaccine, not deaths that are coincidental to vaccination.

:::Compare this to Gardasil's numbers [http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/hpvmer013007LB.pdf] from page 12. "Across the clinical studies, 17 deaths were reported in 21,464 male and female subjects. The events reported were consistent with events expected in healthy adolescent and adult populations. The most common cause of death was motor vehicle accident (4 subjects who received GARDASIL and 3 placebo subjects), followed by overdose/suicide (1 subject who received GARDASIL and 2 subjects who received placebo), and pulmonary embolus/deep vein thrombosis (1 subject who received GARDASIL and 1 placebo subject). In addition, there were 2 cases of sepsis, 1 case of pancreatic cancer, and 1 case of arrhythmia in the group that received GARDASIL, and 1 case of asphyxia in the placebo group." In other words, deaths in the Gardasil group were not statistically higher than deaths in the placebo group. Certainly, HPV vaccine may contribute to a rare death, but probably on the same scale as Smallpox vaccination, and again, though it sounds cold, this is an acceptable rate when compared to the benefit. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:12, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:: John, you said about the smallpox vaccine, "As many as 1 in 1000 may suffer severe reactions up to and including death." That statement is false. The "1 in 1000" figure is NOT up to and including death. 1 million subjects are needed for that in the case of the smallpox vaccine.

:: I'm not going to spend my afternoon debating falsehoods. If you won't admit that your statement was false or misleading, then my time is better spent discussing issues with other people who would admit that. Many liberals don't mind being deceitful and I don't waste time debating them. When I make a false or misleading statement, then I apologize and correct it. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:24, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away. I love that statistics are now "liberal falsehoods." Andy, the fact is that if you did a trial of 1000 people and one person died, this would not mean that the death rate was 1 per 1000, you would have to do larger scale trials to see if the rate held. It is possible for a single person in a 1000 person trial to die, but the statistic is that this will happen on average 1 time per million. The term "severe reaction" includes "death" as a possible reaction, so although 1 in 1000 will not necessarily die, 1 in 1000 will suffer a severe reaction. This severe reaction could include death. Stick to law and economics, Andy. Statistics are complex things. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:33, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::: John, you're not fooling anyone here. Your statement was false, but you won't correct it. I doubt anyone else here would be foolish enough to waste time with you. Thanks, but I'll be debating others here who don't embrace falsehoods. Godspeed in your efforts to find someone else to debate you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:40, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::::Andy, for someone who runs a wiki site, you need to learn some basic formatting. When I put in 1 colon mark, then you follow with 2. When I put in 3, you follow with 4. It makes the conversation difficult to follow when your responses jump back an indent or two. But on to the matter at hand. You've failed to address any of the points I've actually made. You've latched onto what you consider to be a falsehood and then refuse to consider any other part of my argument until I satisfy your claim. This is called the fallacy of many questions. It's as if I've asked you "do you still beat your wife" which assumes that you have a wife and you beat her, though neither fact is in evidence, and then I refuse to debate until you answer the question. Now, you've asserted that I falsely stated the death rate of the smallpox vaccine as 1 per 1000. I pointed out that this was the rate of severe reaction, and that severe reactions can include death, although death is statistically less likely, on the order of 1 per million. Even though I pointed out that your initial accusation of falsehood was unfounded, you move the goalposts and continue to ask when I plan to stop beating my wife. You continue to demand I admit lying when in fact it's your own trouble with statistics that is at issue here. You don't want to debate and that's fine. I know it's tough when someone presents those pesky facts that put a dent in your ideology. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:55, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:While I certainly agree that it would be best if noone ever had a severe reaction to a vaccine, we need to accept it as a fact of life. We have two girls who have died, but consider the number that will not suffer from cervical cancer and die as a result. If my statement seems cold-hearted, consider the number of construction workers that died on the job building the highway that takes you from your home to your work. We accept that some construction workers may die or be severely injured every time we commission a highway construction project, yet noone suggests that we have to halt highway construction until it can be made perfectly safe.

:Also, Andy, to say that there's no proof that HPV vaccine will prevent any cases of cervical cancer is to call into question the validity of vaccination in general. The practice of vaccination has been proven in theory and in practice. Here we have a disease that is known to be caused by a virus against which a vaccine can and has been produced. The vaccine has been effective in human models, and although there haven't been challenge trials in humans (which would be unethical), antibody resistance to HPV has gone up post-vaccination which is a marker of efficacy. There's some sort of twisted logic coming out of the far right that suggests that if young girls are protected from getting cervical cancer that they will turn into amoral sex machines, and it's just the threat of cervical cancer and other diseases that keeps them as pure as the driven snow. What garbage! [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 13:39, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
*I, for one, '''love''' this talking point system![[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 13:42, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
:I think I should make [[Conservapedia;Talking Points]], where the 90/10 rule wouldn't apply, and people could argue all day long!
:Andy, as reported by a Newsweek poll of some 480,000 scientists involved in earth/life sciences, "By one count there are some 700 scientists (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science, the general theory that complex life forms did not evolve but appeared 'abruptly". --[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 13:59, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

: Hoji, you're asserting the number, so it is really your burden to give a citation to support your claim, which you have not done. Nevertheless, I did some internet searching and it appears that your figure is based on a response to 700 credentialed biologists identifying themselves as creationists.[http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm] The evolutionists simply claimed that everyone not on the particular list must be a Darwinist!

: Remember, liberals don't mind being deceitful. We all get fooled by that, and that is why it is essential to track down the basis for a liberal claim before repeating it. God help all of us. :-) --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:07, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::This is what you're teaching your students, Ashlafley? To assume that every liberal is a liar? --[[User:PF Fox|PF Fox]] 14:16, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::How many Steves[http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp] are on that list, Andy? [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 14:33, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
:::Why don't you count them for us, John, and make your point regarding the "steves" [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 15:26, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::You must have never heard of "Project Steve." Essentially, it's a list of scientists whose names are or stem from "Steve" such as Stephan or Stephanie. Currently, there are 807 Steves with proper academic credentials that endorse evolution, which JohnSmith is hinting is more than the number of scientists with proper academic credentials who support creationism. Bascially, There are more scientists named Steve who support evolution than there are scientists who support creationism. [[User:Stereophile|Stereophile]] 15:49, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::: Your statement is a series of non-sequiturs, and have no connection with the liberal falsehood that 99.84% of biologists embrace evolution. Unless someone supports that claim as made above, that liberal falsehood is going to be added to the growing list of liberal [[deceit]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:52, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::::And added to that statement I suppose there are more trombone players named Frank who support the notion that Napoleon was a girl; whatever the majority chooses to believe still doesn't make it a fact. If they want the rest of us to believe and promote evolution here, then they need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist first. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 15:55, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::::There are two problems with what you just said Karajou. First, the metaphor is incomplete as trombone players, in deciding Napoleon's gender, do not compare in terms of authority to scientists who decide whether or not evolution occurs. (EDIT) Aside from that, while a majority doesn't necessarailly indicate fact, it does typically go to show what the best theories are at the time in relation to the qualities of the theory we have observed both directly and indirectly. That said, evolution isn't really a complete theory yet. Imagine it as so: the atom. The atom, while it has gone through many revisions throughout history, was from the beginning viable as a general concept. Evolution, while not complete, is stil the best most people have come up with regarding how it is that organisms seem to have changed over time. (<-- I'm not really sure where I was going with that)(EDIT). Secondly, to say that in order to make you believe in evolution that we would first need to prove that God doesn't exist would fairly well remove most of its scientific creedence. God, after all, is not a being hypothesized by scientists, who's concept is over and over revamped to fit our observations, but rather a theological being who's existence isn't dependent upon evidence as much as faith. Scientifically, there is no way to falsify his existence so without a scientific way to do that, nobody could logically and scientifically falsify creationism either. Either way, creationism shouldn't have to rely on the existence of a higher power, as there is no concensus as to who's god is real, or whether one even exist's, no matter what your personal belief may be. I guess, in short, God cannot be evidence for a scientific theory because he's not something you can observe; he's only something people can have faith in.--[[User:Stereophile|Stereophile]] 16:33, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::::Oh, no, Andy! Not the dreaded list of liberal falsehoods! Come off it, man. Again, it's simple statistics. The Discovery Institute, and a number of their predecessor creationist organizations have trotted out the list of scientists that "dissent from Darwinism" as if it had some factual importance. The point of the Steve's list is two-fold: First, it points out the absurdity of suggesting that such a list (such as the dissent from Darwinism) has any effect on the actual validity of the Theory of Evolution. Secondly, if one still believes that such a list does have validity, then one must likewise accept the Steve's list as valid, meaning that since the name Steve (and it's derivations) comprise about 1% of the names in the US, then the 807 Steves on the list must correspond to 100 times as many scientists that support the ToE, or around 807,000, which really puts those ridiculous creationist lists into perspective.

::::::Also, Karajou, one need not prove that God doesn't exist in order to say that the ToE is valid. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a great many theistic evolutionists, and acceptance of the ToE is not incompatible with belief in God. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 16:37, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::: 519 words in response above, not one of which supports the liberal claim that 99.84% of biologists embrace evolution. It's another liberal falsehood. I don't expect that falsehood to bother liberals, but it will matter to everyone else. It's going into the growing list of liberal [[deceit]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:53, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::: I see the source of this falsehood is Wikipedia. No surprise there. I'll put this in [[Bias in Wikipedia]] instead.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:57, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::::Have you stopped beating your wife yet, Andy? My response had nothing to do with the 99.84% number, instead I was addressing the question of the "Steves" list. And the number doesn't come from Wikipedia, it comes from a 1987 Newsweek article. Perhaps you should start a new article: Bias in Newsweek.

::::::But I'm afraid that this time you are hoisted by your own petard. The link you posted above: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm] shows an actual poll conducted of scientists in 1997 showing that 5% held to some form of young earth creationism, whereas 95% held to either theistic or naturalistic evolution. Now, this is a general poll of scientists, and one would imagine that if the field were restricted to biologists only, the numbers would probably go up since "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution." Now, that being said, I'll stick to the 95% figure so that I'm not accused of being some sort of lying liberal. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 17:08, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

::::::: "John", which I don't think is even your real name, I'm not interesting in debating people who won't admit to and correct falsehoods. We saw an example earlier today concerning the smallpox vaccine above. Now we see it here: you won't admit the 99.84% claim is a liberal falsehood. Instead, you blame Newsweek, which is another falsehood because Newsweek didn't make the 99.84% claim. The claim does come from Wikipedia. See [[Bias in Wikipedia]].

::::::: Don't post to my talk page and don't try to engage me in debate unless you abide by simple rules that avoid falsehoods, and that correct them promptly when made. Thank you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:16, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::::::: Andy, as I've explained above, you're failure to understand statistics does not equate to me lying. I resent the implication, and it's clear you're going to continue to call me a liar to avoid having to address any of my points. How cowardly!

:::::::: Now, as far as the source of the 99.84% number, you do cite a Wikipedia article which repeats the number, but the Wiki article cites a Newsweek article from 1987 where the original statement can be found. Wiki didn't just make up the number out of whole cloth, they repeat the statement from Newsweek.

:::::::: Lastly, I've admitted that the 99.84% number is at best an estimate, and not an actual valid statistic. The valid statistic comes from the poll conducted in 1997 which shows that 95% of scientists accept the evidence for evolution. I speculated that if one were to restrict the poll to biologists only, then the number might rise and approach the 99.84% number, but absent an actual poll that demonstrates this, I will stick with the 95% number.

:::::::: And I see you're on the "not your real name" wagon again. I guess you had better chastise "Conservative" and "Wikiinterpreter" and "Ferret" and "TK" for not using their real names either. What a limp accusation, Andy. Why don't you accuse me of violating the 90/10 rule next, then I'll really feel like a real CP editor. [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 17:29, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
:::::::::Two things, John: 1. you're not going to push liberal beliefs here, and that includes a ToE belief; and 2. you're getting pretty close to starting a fight with your blatent statements of "cowardice" directed at Aschlafly. It stops now. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 17:51, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
::::::::::Funny, how the panel mentions "not censoring legitimate criticism" of the ToE, yet stands by silently when editors purge every factual iota of information about ToE, in favor of half-truths and lies. --[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 17:56, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::::::::: Ok, there, Internet Tough Guy. First of all, the ToE isn't a liberal belief, it's science. Your particular theology doesn't allow it, that's fine. You want to present your theology for what it is, that's fine. My frustration comes up when people try to push their theology as a legitimate scientific alternative to the ToE, or they misrepresent the ToE for the purpose of denigrating it. Incidentally, I'm not actually pushing the ToE in any of the above repartee. Andy is upset that Hoji used the 99.84% number, and decided it was a liberal falsehood. I've been pointing out that although the methodology used to arrive at that number is not valid, that the fundamental concept that Hoji is presenting (that the overwhelming majority of scientists accept the ToE) is correct. And 2) Andy and I are engaged in an argument. I've made a number of points which Andy refuses to address. Instead he calls me a liar or a liberal and pretends that this allows his to dismiss my criticism in toto. If he wants to surround himself with sycophants and suppress all discourse that doesn't agree with him, that's his prerogative, but that is cowardice and I will continue to call it like I see it. If you can't stand the heat... [[User:JohnSmith|JohnSmith]] 18:04, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

:::::::::::No John, the point is that you are going to respect this website one way or the other. This site was founded on Judeo-Christian, conservative values, and it is you who is pushing otherwise. If you don't like it, you will leave. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 18:07, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

*'''THIS PAGE HAS BEEN TEMP. LOCKED. John Smith, Karajou, other Sysops, take this argument to TOE!. Now.''' --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 18:14, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

I have made an extensive response to JohnSmith and Stereophile [[Talk:Theory of evolution#Continuation of Main Page discussion|here]]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:48, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

==Top Wanted Article and Number of Members on Main Page==
I suggest we list the #1 Wanted Article To Be Created on the top of the main page. Even above Breaking News. It will stimulate users to create and edit it, helping this encyclopedia exand and lowering the long wanted list.
Also, I suggest we list the number of users in the paragraph with number of articles and page visits.--[[User:Mcpannier|Mcpannier]] 23:23, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

==Atheist writers==
Militant, atheist writers are making an all-out assault on religious faith [http://cbs11tv.com/business/local_story_145113644.html Atheist Books Reveal New Intensity To Public Angst] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 04:20, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

== Let's all improve these top entries here: ==

'''Let's all improve these top entries here:'''

Um, yeah. Lets. Oh, wait. Three of the top five are LOCKED. WAY TO GO, Conservapedia. You never let me down. [[User:Sevenstring|Sevenstring]] 14:33, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
:And which are locked so you may edit? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 15:09, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

== No link to Creation Museum article ==

The news story on the homepage doesn't have a link to the Conservapedia article.
:Fixed. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 18:05, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
::Thanks--[[User:Tash|Tash]] 18:19, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
==Democrats and The War==
I think it's disengenuous at best that we put the "Democrats are for long stay in Iraq" comment on the main page - that seemed like a cheap shot given that it's Democrats trying to get the troops out.[[User:Iduan|Iduan]] 22:47, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
:Hey Iduan - Democrats in Congress may be vocal about a desire to withdraw troops, but it can't be denied that they're initial "tough" stance of demanding a time-table for withdrawal got gutted in favor of some vaguely-defined benchmarks. Opponents of the Democrats' earlier stand can see it as a victory, and if you were in favor of the Democrats' earlier position then this was definitely Bad News(tm). [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 00:28, 29 May 2007 (EDT)
::Yeah I'm aware of that - and I tend to disagree with most democrats - but still, it just seems like we're saying that republicans don't support the war and democrats do.[[User:Iduan|Iduan]] 18:30, 29 May 2007 (EDT)
Hmmm...70% in public opinion polls oppose the war, the Democrats get elected to do the will of the people, and yet by a vote of 280-142 in the House, and 80-14 in the Senate, the people & the anti-war movement can take a hike. I guess GW Bush isn't the only stupid, lying, ignorant, self-righteous, stubborn idiot in DC, huh? [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:59, 29 May 2007 (EDT)
:Per Andy's style, "thank you for conceding that President Bush is a stupid, lying, ignorant, self-righteous, stubborn idiot." I will happily concede that he is not the only one, in response. This is much better than arguing! [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 23:34, 29 May 2007 (EDT)
::So we can conclude in the spirit of bipartisanship (a) "stupid, lying, ignorant, self-righteous, stubborn idiot" knows no party, and (b) the electorate consists of stupid, lying, ignorant, self-righteous, stubborn idiots who vote for stupid, lying, ignorant, self-righteous, stubborn idiots after being brainwashed by stupid, lying, ignorant, self-righteous, stubborn idiots in the media. At least we got that cleared up. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:43, 29 May 2007 (EDT)
:::And we wonder why things are so messed up. [[User:Aziraphale|Aziraphale]] 11:48, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

==Davy Crockett Story==
I found a really good story about Davy Crockett while in Congress. It is a great motivation for conservatives. The story is at [[http://www.theadvocates.org/library/christian-crockett.html]]. In case anyone's interested in the story. {{unsigned|Additioner}}

:Corrected link for him. (Period was inside brackets) [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 08:05, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

== School dropouts again ==

Apparently the story about the school dropouts made it back on the front page. While I said before that there is nothing morally wrong to not read the article that you quote - it is just sloppy - I'd say that it is morally wrong to repeat this mistake. Unless whoever did put it back can make believable that he did it by mistake, again. Why is it morally wrong? The scientists who wrote this paper, crafted introduction and conclusion carefully; they describe the problem, when it occurs, what it means, and suggested an approach to solve the problem. Presenting only half or less of their findings is extremely disrespectful, especially if it is done to score cheaply. In the end it reflects badly on who ever did this, because it shows that did not only not read or understand the article, it shows that he (or she) doesn't care. [[User:Order]] May 30 23:30 (AEST)
:The '''Breaking News''' section is done by Template:Tfa. [[User:Aschlafly]] is the one who initially added the article [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Template:Tfa&diff=prev&oldid=176923 (higher min. wage causes more dropouts)]. Perhaps he can clear up this issue. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 10:10, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Order's criticism is baseless. Order, have you ever studied [[economics]]? Raising the minimum wage increases school dropouts. It's as obvious as saying that 2+2=4. Feel free to take your denials to the Wikipedia crowd. You're not going to fool anyone here by denying logic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:09, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

My critic is not baseless. Where did I say that raising the minimum wage wouldn't increase the drop-out rate? What I criticize is your sloppy way of quoting material. If you disagree with the findings of the paper, you still have to quote it correctly, and for that you should at least read the introduction. And then you can tell us what is wrong with it. My understanding of economics has nothing to do with your failure to read the introduction of the paper. And anyway, if you disagree with the papers findings, why did you quote it in the first place?

If you want to discuss the findings of the paper, feel free to do it. Their findings are: Increasing minimum wages increase school-drop-outs in states without mandatory schooling until 18. And you dropped the second half. What is wrong about your behavior, Aschlafly, is that you disagree with the authors, but still present their work as if they agree with you. And that is unfair to them. Imagine how you would feel if they went around and claim on their front page that the son of Phillis Schlalfy, advocate of homeschooling, embraced their paper, and now supports their suggestion to introduce mandatory schooling until 18, to counter school-drop outs? They could point to you quoting them on Conservapedia's main page as an obvious endorsement. Wouldn't you think that this unfair? And this is just as unfair how you treat them.

Something else is wrong with your remark? Your response to sloppiness is to make an ad hominem attack. Maybe I didn't study economics, but I wrote my fair share of academic papers. And the way you take work with academic papers is sloppy, to say the least. And that is quite independent of my academic career. Since you chose to change the subject and question my credentials instead of responding to the matter, I assume that you have no real argument in the matter, and I take it as an admission that you didn't read or understand their paper. And that you don't care either. [[User:Order]] June 1 14:02

: Order, your rant seems pointless. The paper is cited for its data, not its political recommendation. Increasing the minimum wage increases school dropouts. Even you seem to accept that obvious fact, which is as basic as saying 2+2=4. Since you can't complain about that, you do complain that I don't support the absurd political solution of forcing people to stay in school. No one supports that in a free society, and it need not waste our time.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:17, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

Aschlafly, were did I rant? The data says, ''school drop out raises in states without mandatory schooling until 18''. Since you support the data, I see that you agree with the statement, ''it does not increase in states with mandatory schooling''.

Where, Andy, did I reject the finding that an increase in minimum wage does not increase school dropout? Where did I state that it is not true? So, why do you make up this argument that I say that their data is not accurate? Probably, because you find it difficult to admit that you were sloppy when citing the article, and now you make stuff up, that I disagree with their data. [[User:Order]] June 2, 12:00 pm.

== What is Conservapedias stance on the war? ==

In the recent days Conservapedia editors write on the frontpage over a "sellout", "war cabal", and "endless troop commitment" and they cite articles with the heading "The entire government has failed us on Iraq". It makes me wonder what their stance on this war is. Apparently, the editors in question do not care a bit about the war in Iraq. They don't care that it was a difficult decision for the president to commit troops, nor that it is a difficult decision for people in congress of how to best support the troops, nor that troops and civilians die in this war, and that other return heavily injured. It seems to be all unimportant to these editors as long as they can score points against Democrats. I makes me wonder if these editors actually ever supported the war, or if they were in favor of it just to upset a few democrats. [[User:Order]] May 30 23:45 (AEST)
:What's your stance on the war? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:35, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

::So you first need to know what I think about it to determine your own. Thanks for proving the point that you don't really have a stance, but that you determine it only in response to the position of an imagined opponent. [[User:Order]] June 1, 9:10 (AEST)
:::I'm just asking the individual who caused this debate in the first place. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 20:33, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Sure, you are just asking, upon being asked yourself. There is nothing wrong with asking, and I am happy to tell me you mine. But, I wonder why you need to know mine. Don't take it personal, but my guess is because you can't give your own opinion; all you can do is attack people on their opinion, and that is why you need to know mine. If you'd had an opinion, you would be able to give it regardless of mine. [[User:Order]] June 1, 14:10 (AEST)

:::In the immortal words of [[Keith Olbermann]],
:::*''After six months of preparation and execution—half a year gathering the strands of public support...nearly 70 percent of Americans who reject this War of Lies..."''
:::What was all that "preparation" about, other than "scoring points" on GW Bush & the War effort, as the political realities expressed by 280 members of the House & 80 Senators have declared it so. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:19, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

In my short time on this site I have noticed this trend. Whenever a sysop is asked a question, or challegned, the repsonse is to pose (a sometimes unrelated) question to the person that orignally asked. What gives?--[[User:Franklin|Franklin]] 08:31, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
:Franklin, oh really? Where have I heard that criticism before...was it as RW?

<nowiki>index.php?title=Conservapedia_Talk:Concepts&diff=prev&oldid=6024</nowiki> [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:14, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

==Homosexual/Transgender Bills in Congress==
Two bills being promoted by the homosexual/transgender lobby in Washington, DC, are working their way through Congress. The Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act, H.R. 1592 was passed by liberals in the U.S. House on the National Day of Prayer. It is now in the Senate for consideration.[http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.1105: S.1105] Any sermon or article critical of homosexuality construed to have “induced” a person to engage in violent behavior against a homosexual/transgender would be considered an accessory to violence.

:This bill makes sense, as it is similar to many other bills that are oriented around curbing hate speech that promotes violence. Its perfectly fine to say that homosexuality is a sin in the bible and that you don't like homosexuals. However, it is not fine to run around like Fred Phelps and try to incite violence against homosexuals (Hell, I hate to say this, but even Phelps TECHNICALLY doesn't incite violence against homosexuals). I think that I'd like to see exactly how they use the term "induced" in the bill, as leaving it broad might allow people to use it to scapegoat their own crimes, but other than that, I see no real issue here.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 18:40, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

The second bill is the *Employment Non-Discrimination Act, H.R. 2015 (ENDA)* [http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc110/h2015_ih.xml Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2007] promoted by homosexual activist Barney Frank (D-MA) and his homosexual/transgender allies. We have dubbed this bill, the ''She-Male Shower Bill'' because it will force employers of more than 15 employees to provide restroom and shower facilities for individuals who wish to cross-dress, who identify as another sex even though no sex change has taken place; individuals who are undergoing so-called sex change operations and even she-males. *“Gender Identity” includes individuals who simply “think” they are the opposite sex but do not want a sex change operation. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 13:55, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

:Now THIS bill is bat**** retarded. Different bathrooms? There is way too much room being left open here for lawyers to have too much fun. This bill should be scraped. Seriously. And people wonder what is wrong with the US government. BTW, Croncoite, the link to the second bill is broken.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 18:40, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
::Fixed [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 19:17, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

On a related note, the (Democrat, of course) governor of New Hampshire has just signed a "civil unions" bill into law, to take effect next year.--[[User:JoeP|JoeP]] 19:59, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
:That doesn't hurt your ability to marry, if you are straight. [[User:Marl Karx|Marl Karx]] 17:41, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

As of 2008, nine states allow gay marriages, civil unions, domestic partnerships, etc. Hawaii also offers limited benifits. Ten years ago this would not have been possible. So I ask you, what will the state of marriage be like ten years from now? I predict gay marriage will be legal in most states. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 02:35, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

== Article count ==

I am still dumbfounded as to how the number of entries is reached; the [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics Statistics] page gives a specific number of 9,298. That is over 1,000 away from the claimed 10,400 on the front page. So... how is this number decided? --[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 20:40, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

: The Wiki statistics are just an estimate on the number of entries, an estimate that has a bias towards verbosity. Our count is precise. You can verify by counting the entries yourself in the list for "Oldest Pages" under the "Special Pages."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:00, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::I just followed Andy's instructions and the count was 10,456. This coincides with the Main Page count of over 10,450. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 00:18, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Indeed, Andy is right. The [[Special:Statistics| Statistics]] page probably doesn't count the following pages that do occur on [[Special:Ancientpages| odlest pages]] special page: [[Great_Artists]], [[Great_Artists_F]], [[Nirvana_(Disambiguation)]], [[2000_BC]], [[1000_BC]], [[Anderson_County,_Tennessee]] or [[Union_County,_Tennessee]]. [[User:Order]] 31 May, 14:35 (AEST)

:::: The quality of our entries is higher than on Wikipedia. Try sampling "Random page" on Wikipedia and comparing it to "Random page" here. This has been done and there is a higher percentage of quality pages here than on Wikipedia. But unlike Wikipedia, we do not think that more words is better. The preference for more words on Wikipedia, and in the Wiki statistics count, is almost childish, I'm afraid. It's like Beaver on "Leave It to Beaver" trying to satisfy a word count in an essay requirement of his grade school teacher.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:49, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::::: I have heard this repeated several times and I wonder what your definition of "quality page" is. I use the random feature on a number of Wiki's, when I am not looking for something specific, but just want to learn a little something. I rarely hit a page on this site that I would consider a page of high quality. On Wikipedia, on the other hand, within a few clicks of the random page button I have usually found an interesting article with depth and detail that gets me interested in something that I had no idea could be so interesting. Rarely has a page on Conservapedia made me go "Hmm" and make me want to find out more. [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 09:03, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::::I am not sure what you mean by quality page, but it could very well be the case that there are fewer entries on obscure subjects and fewer stubs on Conservapedia. But the quality of entries wasn't the matter, the matter was to explain the difference in counts. But the list of entries that I posted, shows examples of pages that may account for the 1000 pages difference between your official count and the statistics count. [[User:Order]] June 1, 17:45 (AEST)

*Sounds only natural to me. Someone who is a Liberal, reading here, would have your reaction. The same one I have at WP and Liberal blogs.--[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 09:10, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

: I really don't think that it is a liberal/conservative thing. Take the article of the day from a day or so ago. It was about Rus invasions of the Baltic. I have a decent knowledge of history and an interest in it. That article gave me a lot of information that I knew about only vaguely. It also let me find out that there are different theories about the nature of the Rus, whether they remained primarily of Viking stock, or became more dominated by Slavic blood. It led me en article about the Rus, which led me to an article about the Varangians, etc. I had a very interesting half an hour of reading, while I ate my lunch.

: This sort of thing happens with any number of articles on WP, whether they are about Rugby football, Gustave Adolph of Sweden, Italian Morality plays, or advances in the understanding of the atom. I had not realized that '''any''' of these things were ''liberal'' articles, as opposed to conservative ones.

: Let's look at it another way. I often use WP as a way of getting a quick overview of a subject, often a fairly specific subject that comes up at home or at work. Off the top of my head, I have recently used WP to find out the difference between Rugby Union and Rugby league; to find out whether the song "Black Night" was by Deep Purple or by Rainbow; to find out how proxy.pac files work. WP was very helpful on all of these topics, and often interested me enough to want to learn more, or to follow a related link. Would Conservapedia have helped me with any of these?

: I am amused by your comparison of WP to liberal blogs, as I think this shows much about your way of thinking. The vast majority of articles on WP have nothing to do with conservatism or liberalism. They are simply informational. If you take the time to look at the talk pages (which IMHO is one of the strengths of wikis) you can find out which areas of a subject are still controversial, or have distinct differences in opinion. You appear to think that unless an article has a specific pro-US, pro-Christian fundamentalist spin, it is "liberal". I am more interested in information than in spin, so, for the time being, WP fulfills the purpose of an encyclopedia, conservapedia serves as a place for a specific group to take out their frustrations, not as a place to get information (unless I was simply looking for YEC explanations of something.) [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 10:15, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::I am amused that you spend so much of your time here giving us the benefit of your... "wisdom"... on talk pages. Given that you don't like the ethos here, think the article quality stinks, and felt strongly enough about the project that you registered as an editor (unless, of course, that was just to enable "sniping") and yet have '''never''' contributed positively to a single article, I'm surprised you deign to spare any of your lunchbreak here at all. What ''do'' trolls eat for lunch, incidentally? [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 10:27, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::: LOL, I am impressed. I have been called a number of things, but never a troll. I come here because it is amusing. I have not taken the time to edit much, or even to comment very much. I think that the majority of my comments are contructive, although this page seems to be aimed at more wide open discussion. It is actually a bit ironic that I was actually making my first edit to a page while you were calling me a troll, but you were accurate about my postings being aimed at talk pages. I don't make many edits on WP, either. I respect the work others have put into pages, and prefer to make my suggestions on talk pages, except for simply vandalism reverts and typo correction. I realize that I am not the target group for this site, but I enjoy watching things grow and evolve, so I will continue to come. If I get blocked because my edits are mainly talk page edits, then I will be blocked. Life goes on. I have enough of an ego to think that my comments are largely useful. (BTW, it varies, depending on what the cafeteria has, but yesterday it was a grilled tenderloin, since you care.) [[User:Boomcoach|Boomcoach]] 10:45, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Boomcoach, you say that you are both "impressed" and "amus[ed]". Well, that's a great contradiction. We do have a [[rule]] against editors spending 90% of their time in silly banter because it clutters up the pages for those who are actually learning and improving the site. We welcome substantive edits, and weed out those who are just here to distract. Hope you can add something useful here. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:12, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

== Wikipedia scandal in Chile ==

"Oh noes! A resource exists, and somebody misuses it, so it is therefore the fault of the resource." The same could be said about [[guns]] (Man kills person, gun to blame), [[water]] (Girl drowns; water criminalized), and pretty much everything else. I fail to see the logic in how it is the fault of Wikipedia, and not the senator. Perhaps someone more enlightened could point it out to me. --[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ''']][[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]] 23:51, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

: I'm not saying this was Wikipedia's fault. I am saying that Wikipedia is liberal, and this is an example of a liberal (socialist) copying from it. Not even his fellow socialists were impressed, apparently.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:59, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

So why is it on the main page? As for misuse, a conservative could just as easily plagarize from conservapedia. Such an instance would not be the fault of conservapedia, nor would it produce a ripple at wikipedia--[[User:Franklin|Franklin]] 07:07, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:It's on the main page because it's further proof that liberals (and especially socialists) are dishonest plagiarizers.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 14:14, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:: ... and that liberals (and especially socialists) tend to copy Wikipedia for their information. :-) --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:16, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:::Does anybody know what he copied and whether there is a better version on Conservapedia? [[User:DollarsAndSense|DollarsAndSense]] 14:27, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:::: Don't know what he copied but I can say this: a socialist is not going to copy from Conservapedia! Godspeed to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:27, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

==NASA Chief Questions Whether Global Warming Is a Problem==
The head of the U.S. space program went on national radio and questioned whether global warming really is a problem [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276722,00.html NASA Chief Questions Whether Global Warming Is a Problem] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] [[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship#Support|Support my RfA]]) 15:44, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

: Great. I've just posted this. Thanks much your superb suggestion, again!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:04, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
::How dare these [[NASA]] clowns disagree with [[Al Gore]] and hollywood.[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 17:10, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::: Don't they know Al Gore won an Academy Award for his view??!! It's not allowed to disagree with that!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

==Hi==

Hi, I'm an psychology student from Bristol university and I'm doing a study on religious fundamentalism. I was wandering if anybody here would be happy to answer a few questions? Thanks --[[User:MikeG|MikeG]] 18:04, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

: Sure, I'd be happy to help. If I can't answer the questions, then I'll pass them on to someone who can. Just post your questions here. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:25, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::MikeG is also [[User:Kelpan|Kelpan]][[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 18:30, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:::It seems ''de rigeur'' to have at least 3 or 4 sock puppets these days. Very infantile. [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 18:39, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Block 'em, Bohdan. I've observed that some [[liberals]] delight in [[deceit]]. The rest of us got over that delight at what, age 6?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:57, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks. OK here goes. If any of the questions offend you, or you simply don't wish to answer, just ignore it go straight on to the next one.

# Were you brought up in a religious family, or did you find Christianity later in life?
# Do you believe that individuals who do not believe in the Christian God will go to hell no matter whether they are otherwise a "good" person?
# If the answer to this question is "yes", do you feel comfortable with this?
# Do you believe that some other religions such as Islam worship essentially the same God and may achieve the same rewards in the afterlife as yourself?
# Do you ever have doubts about your faith for any reason?
# Do you feel that God communicates with you directly?
# Do you believe that all of the bible is a) God's own words? and b) Intended to be taken literally?
# Many people in Britain associate the refusal to acknowledge the possiblity of human-caused global warming with the (largely American) Christian right movement. Do you feel that such a correlation exists, and if so, why does it?
# Do you believe that Armageddon will occur in the relatively near future and if so does this have any bearing on decisions and plans you make about life?
# Do you think that homosexuality may one day be completely accepted by all major branches of the church?

That's enough for now. Thanks again. --[[User:MikeG|MikeG]] 18:59, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

I have no idea what a "sock puppet" is but can assure you that this is the first time I have visited this site. I do however work from a university, so if you are tracking me via my IP address it is quite possible that other people on the same network use this site. --[[User:MikeG|MikeG]] 19:01, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
:Funny how they all claim not to know what a sock puppet is :/ [[Image:User Fox.png]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 19:03, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

Well this has been very constructive. I had hoped to be able to gain some insight into the thought processes behind the religious right movement and perhaps even reduce some of the prejudice against this group that is so widespread throughout the United Kingdom. Anyway, if anybody still wishes to help me out I will be checking back in a couple of days. Thank you for your time. --[[User:MikeG|MikeG]] 19:07, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
::It's already "very constructive"? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 19:56, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

: Fess up about why you seem to be a sockpuppet, and read our entry on [[deceit]]. Then this will be constructive.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:12, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::If [[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] is revealing information based on IP numbers of other users, then he is in breach of the [[Conservapedia:privacy policy]] and should be immediately blocked. --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 19:08, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

::: Isn't it amazing how [[liberals]] defend [[deceit]]??? Not only do some people delight in [[deceit]], but then some people get indignant when [[deceit]] is exposed. Really, this is too much.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:12, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
::How exactly did I break the privacy policy?[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 19:15, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:::To Bohdan: You appear to have used privileged information about the IP numbers that users are logging in from to identify that two users were editing from the same IP address. Since one of these has identified what university they are from, you have connected the other username to the same university, breaching that user's privacy. --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 11:25, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:::To Aschlafly: What makes me a liberal, and since when has an expectation of privacy been deceit? --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 11:25, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:::: Scott, I think you've been deceived by a fellow liberal here. I don't see any connection between the IP address and a university. I think you've been duped by your comrade.

:::: In response to your question of me, I'm not interested in playing yet another "prove I'm a liberal!!!" game. You tell me your views on classroom prayer in public school, and I'll tell you how liberal you are. Why are so many people embarrassed to admit they are liberals???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:46, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::::: Huh. Just by that one question you can tell? Amazing. I guess my parents, long-term Republicans, lifelong evangelical Christians (albeit of the somewhat more academic type than the majority here), young earth creationists, and generally conservative in the Conservapedia sense (anti-union, economics that assume 'perfect consumers' and don't take anything else into account but supply/demand, etc. ad nauseum) are liberals, because they do NOT believe in prayer in public schools. Funny, how I could learn something so shocking here at Conservapedia. [[User:MyaR|MyaR]] 15:02, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:::: I'm not persuaded that your parents oppose prayer in public schools. Why would they? Perhaps you mean to say that they don't believe in public school, or sending their own children to public school. But that's not a demand for censorship of prayer in public school. If you are going to persuade me, then you are going to have give reasons, and you haven't yet.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:46, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::::: They believe in ''separation of church and state'', for religion's protection as much as the state's. If you are a member of a minority Christian sect, whatever that sect is (Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal), not even taking other ''religions'' into account, what would be taught in the religious education classes that you're a proponent of would be what, exactly? Anything other than the Lord's Prayer (and which version do you use? some sects/people are adamant that theirs is more correct) is problematic, and your children will be learning something you do not approve of. Which is why my parents sent us to parochial school, although they have regrets there, too. But they believe that prayer does not belong in public schools precisely because of the question of who gets to decide which versions of 'the truth' their children learn. And because they believe that it is ''their'' responsibility, not the state's, to provide religious education. They are fine with a moment of silence, providing time for prayer for students, but not in state-led prayer, because there is no way, with the diversity of sects even within Christianity, to avoid teaching something contrary to one of the sects' beliefs.
::::: And not having state-led prayer is ''not'' censorship. Preventing a child from praying on their own is censorship, but preventing a child from praying out loud, disrupting classroom activity is ''not'' censorship. {{unsigned|MyaR}}
::::::You can't keep religion out of the schools. What is purported to be keeping religion out of schools is replacing one religion (Christianity) with another (Humanism). So you have state-endorsed religion masquerading as no-religion.
::::::If preventing a child from praying out loud is merely to prevent disruption, rules against disruption would be sufficient; if you have a rule specifically against praying then the purpose is not to prevent disruption, but to favour Humanism over Christianity.
::::::And by the way, those "sects" within Christianity are, outside of technical discussions, for the most part known as "denominations", except by those trying to subtly denigrate it.
::::::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 12:16, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::: You have a rule against prayer because a state employee leading a prayer is state sanctioning of religion. I included the reference to disruption was to forestall a silly response that would've come. And 'sect' is merely more generic than 'denomination' -- it can apply to all religions. Your perception of denigration was just that. And calling Humanism (as if there is anything called that that is in any way monolithic) a religion does not make it so. What qualifies it as such? (And seriously Andy, the ludicrous claim that you can know my parents better than I do is INSANE. You don't even know who they are, much less what they think.) [[User:MyaR|MyaR]] 12:52, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

:::::::: Sorry, but your opposition to classroom prayer is probably not limited to prayers by a "state employee." You're not fooling anyone. You probably oppose student-led classroom prayer also, or athlete-led prayer prior to a school sporting event. Moreover, you distorted my comment concerning your parents' views. I said, "I'm not persuaded that your parents oppose prayer in public schools." And I'm still not persuaded that parents, assuming they are Christians as you say, oppose classroom prayer. Your use of the word "sect" rather than "denomination" suggests that you may have hostility to Christianity. Do you? Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:40, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::::: Heh. I got an Andy "Godspeed". In normal language, that would be "see ya!", probably with an epithet. And YES, they oppose classroom prayer. '''''Because they realize that separation of church and state protects religion as much as it does the state.''''' How is that not giving a reason? IT IS A REASON, and a damn good one. But hey, Andy hears only what agrees with him. And gee, isn't it great how, no matter how many times I say my parents oppose school prayer, which I've had many conversations with them on, you can not believe me. And no, i do not oppose Christianity. Nor do I oppose Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, or any other religion, per se. What I oppose are people who feel they have a lock on what it means to be a perfect Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, or any other member of a religion. People who feel that they have more rights than anyone else, because they have some sort of enlightenment. As I was taught Christianity, a prime tenet is humility, and see none of that here. [[User:MyaR|MyaR]] 13:51, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

:::::::: If the "rule against prayer" was merely to stop state employees, why would it cover children also? You specifically mentioned children disrupting, which was the point I was answering.
:::::::: Yes, sect is more generic, and you can apply it to all religions, but you were applying it specifically to Christianity, so you justification is disingenuous. I have no doubt that what I said about people denigrating Christianity using the term "sect" is true. I did not say that it definitely applies in your case, although I was wondering if that's the case.
:::::::: Calling Humanism religion does not make it so, and pointing that out does not make it not so. Humanism is a worldview, which is a synonym for religion. Additionally, Humanism has been declared to be a religion by American courts. I don't know that you are getting at with the reference to "monolithic"; Christianity is not "monolithic" either in the sense that it is just one organisation, if that's what you are suggesting.
:::::::: If Humanism qualifies as religion, and if Humanism is what is effectively being taught in American government schools, then the claim that they are keeping religion out of schools is false.
:::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:41, 4 June 2007 (EDT)
----

::::::I support prayer in classrooms, workplaces, hospitals, on public transport, at home, in churches and everywhere else. Reciting Christian poetry is not "prayer" if you don't believe what you are are saying, or believe in who you are talking to. Have I proven I'm a liberal? --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 22:44, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::::: Really, Scott? So you'll public schoolchildren pray the Lord's Prayer at the beginning class? You haven't persuaded me either. I'm confident you insist on censoring that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:46, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::I don't "insist on censoring that". I don't see it as an issue, as it's not something I experienced in my public school education, and I'm not aware of current school practices, but would be very surprised if it's done here. I'd rather have a serious religious education class available in schools, and the students have ready access to school chaplains. This is more important to me than forcing all the class to recite the Lord's Prayer, with half of them not understanding what they're saying. It's possible we agree on the principles but our local situation leads us having different ways of getting there. We both want to make sure the young people in our community have exposure to Christianity so they can choose to invite Jesus into their lives. --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 03:55, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

: Without wishing to upset anyone, I wouldn't have thought he is a sock puppet - seemed pretty genuine and polite to me and now people are being rude to him due to a possibly false assumption. I'm more of an interested bystander than a religious fundamentalist, so I can't answer the questions but presumably others could. [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 23:55, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

:: Ferret, your reaction is understandable, but perhaps you do not appreciate the full nature and extent of liberal [[deceit]]. Some [[liberals]] delight both in deception and in wasting [[conservatives]] time. What you and I grew out of after age six is pursued in great self-amusement by liberals on the verge of adulthood, and beyond. We've seen worse examples, believe it or not. Stick around and you'll be amazed at what occurs here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:35, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:: I appreciate that, and it happens a lot on this site to be sure. I'm just not convinced it's the case this time and I'm worried you will appear to be a little paranoid. By the way, my six-year-old is still deceitful when he feels like it... does this mean what I think it means! :-) [[User:Ferret|Ferret]] 01:48, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
::: Do intend on answering the questions or not? {{unsigned|NothingVentured}}

::::I don't think it's appropriate to fill this page with answers, so I will answer on his page. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:05, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::: Ferret, the user was using the exact same IP address as another user, without a plausible explanation. That is known as a "sock puppet", and it is expressly prohibited by our [[rules]]. Enough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:42, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::::He provided a very plausible explanation - he is editing from a university. It is quite likely that all users at that university appear to make all web requests from the same proxy server in their internet firewall. --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 11:25, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

*Please provide proof that scenario actually still happens anywhere, Scott. I'd be interested in knowing...... --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 11:53, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
:We had socks and vandals before from single or shared IP addys, including those who tried it from universities. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:55, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:: Scott, as I said above, I think you've been duped by a fellow comrade with the claim to be posting from a university. His IP address had no apparent connection with a university. Please check out [[deceit]] and don't allow yourself to be fooled as much by [[liberals]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:16, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::: Okay, this is something I'm having trouble dealing with. Let's say, he or she is infact a sockpuppet trying in some way to decieve you. There's no evidence to say he's a liberal. You are just associating deceit with liberalism. I personally don't see why. Conservatives practice deceit occasionally too. Who is to say this person isn't, say, a center-right conservative who just enjoys poking fun at what he or she sees as "evangelical hysteria"? Not all liberals are inherintly evil, as not all conservatives are inherintly good. [[User:GofG | GofG]] [[Special:Contributions/GofG||||]] [[User talk:GofG | Talk]] 16:14, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

: TK - the company I work for has exactly such a setup, as do my computers at home. All of the few thousand computers on desks make http requests through one set of machines, and all of my machines at home proxy through the router that sits next to my dsl modem. For the external corporate website that I administer, I see a large number of users from single ip addresses also - indicating that their companies use the same setup of a small number of proxies facing the world. You could think of it somewhat like a phone system with extensions - if someone calls you, your caller ID shows the phone number, not the extension (individual person). You could get 10 calls from 10 different people at that company, each using a different phone (extension) and your caller ID would have the same information for each of them. Most comapnies today do not have quite the address space as those lucky enough to get in on the early days[http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space] - they can't afford a class B, or even a full class C for themselves (compare UW Madison which has 3x class B networks (each class B network has 65,534 ip addresses in it... but thats nothing compared to MIT which owns 18.* which has 16,277,214 IP addresses). --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 19:19, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::My wife and I use separate computers at home, but would both appear to be accessing the internet from the IP number of our border router due to [[network address translation]]. My work enforces using a web proxy for network security purposes. ''Conservapedia does not sell or share any information about users, except as necessary to report obscenity or vandalism to authorities'' leaves ''me'' with the right to choose what to publicly reveal about myself. This conversation shows that Conservapedia sysops will use information collected by the system in any way they wish. I will never log in to Conservapedia from work because of this. --[[User:Scott|Scott]] 22:44, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
::::No offense, but perhaps you shouldn't log in period. Its only a matter of time before you reveal something confidential about yourself.[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 19:47, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

::::: That's witty, Bohdan. Thank you. As to Scott, your defense of a violation of our [[rules]] does not inspire confidence. How about improving the site instead???? In Christ, --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:57, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

yes, but you could tell from the nature of his questions that he is an enemy of conservapedia. {{unsigned|NothingVentured }}

== Updated Article improvement drive, New Articles added ==

Based on improvements which occurred during our past article improvement drive which is listed on the main page and based on the 1000 most popular serious articles at [[Wikipedia]] (I realize there are a lot of fluff articles at Wikipedia), I updated our article improvement drive on our main page by removing some entries and adding others. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:21, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:That's great. I hope to aid in the improvement of the articles you added. ~ [[User:SharonS|Sharon]][[User talk:SharonS|Talk]] 17:35, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

==City Restricts Number of Flags==
An ordinance restricting the number of flags allowed up for display has some North Carolina business owners seeing a lot of red, and not as much white and blue. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277016,00.html Raleigh Rule Restricts Number of Flags Allowed for Display to Three] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 17:44, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::Non withstanding whether this gets blown out of proportion with respect to the flag, this ordinance makes no sense. A limit to 3 flags/banners/flyer? Why? This will really hurt dealerships and smaller businesses.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 19:46, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

==ACLU helps Gay and Lesbian Prisoners==
New regulations will allow gay and lesbian prisoners in California to have overnight conjugal visits with their partners, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. Surprise - the ACLU is involved [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277137,00.html Gay and Lesbian Prisoners in California Allowed Conjugal Visits] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 17:44, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:Technically the right of conjugal visit is a right of the partner, not the inmate. The principle is that just because the person is incarcerated, that doesn't mean that the government has the right of the incarcerated party's partner to enjoy physical relations. Any benefits the inmate receives from a conjugal visit is merely a byproduct of the partner exercising their right. What this is really doing is putting Gays and Lesbians on more equal footing with conventional couples, laying the foundation for an increase in the number of states that allow Gay and Lesbian marriages.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 19:50, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

Sounds like as good of a "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness free of government interference" argument as a true conservative could ask for. [[User:Sevenstring|Sevenstring]] 20:01, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:Except for this part "... '''laying the foundation for an increase in the number of states that allow Gay and Lesbian marriages'''". More benefits for inmates isn't a conservative position either. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 20:15, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

You're right, gay marriage isn't a consrvative value. But as I read conservatism, it SHOULD be - elected officials shouldn't be in the business of making decisions that people are capable of making for themselves, including who and how legal adults want to marry. Liberals are the ones who are always clamouring for more government regulations and restrictions (environmental laws, minimum wage, equal pay for equal work, etc.). Why should this issue be different? [[User:Sevenstring|Sevenstring]] 20:30, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

:Your talking more about [[libertarian]]s. A libertarian believes in minimizing or entirely eliminating government interventionism in all aspects of life; including economic, personal and in foreign policy matters. Remember that the [[Religious Right]] is part of Conservatism. [[Conservative]]s oppose same-sex marriage licenses. Gay marriage and homosexuality are not condoned by the Religious Right. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 20:53, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

::The [[Religious Right]] doesn't necessarily speak for conservatism as a whole. Religion merely found conservatism more applicable to its goals, and the conservatives happily accepted the large voting bloc. I suppose I should clarify a little. This legislation is not so much going to increase the number of states that accept gay marriage. States that are going to oppose gay marriage are still going to oppose gay marriage. What this will do is help build a stronger case for courts to strike down marriage protection acts as unconstitutional. This doesn't really change the threat it posses to conservative interests, but rather, clarifies it's impact.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 20:58, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

It's a typical tactics of extreme liberals to tell Conservatives or Christians what values or policies they ''should'' support. It's the old [[guilt trip]] tactic: "if you were a ''real'' good person, you would grant me the freedom to this bad thing I want to do; you're so bad to limit my "right to sin" by condemning me."

The proper retort is that God hates the sin, not the sinner. And "knock it off, it's bad for you!" --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 22:11, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
==Guillermo Gonzalez==

I just created an article on [[Guillermo Gonzalez]], the professor at ISU who was just denied tenure because he supports Intelligent Design. [http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/isu_department_faculty_acknowl.html] It's another possible front page idea. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 19:08, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

: Fantastic idea, Dan! Would you like to put it up? Anything older than a day on the front page can be replaced. Just go to [[Editing main page]] and pick the second link for Breaking News. I look forward to reviewing the article. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:11, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

The article that is cited is hardly unbiased. I have been on the Iowa State website and there is still a page on Gonzalez. Has anyone seen his C.V. posted on the web? (many, but not all academics do this). I would like to look it over before I weigh in. --[[User:McIntyre|McIntyre]] 11:18, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

== Why South Africa Sucks ==

Could some sysop type please remove this article - it links to a hateful blog and has no place in Conservapedia. Many thanks. [[User:Sevenstring|Sevenstring]] 20:34, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

I don't even think that blogs are generally notable enough to have their own articles, unless it's like the Daily Kos or something. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:08, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

== Homeschooled spelling champ ==

I don't think it's fair to say the media concealed that he was homeschooled...they mentioned it on CNN, Fox, ESPN (where the spelling championship aired), and other venues. But none of them mentioned the second place kid was not homeschooled. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 08:23, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
:fairness is not a conservapedian value.{{unsigned|NothingVentured}}
::Pardon?? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:06, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
:I've modified the main page. Better? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:09, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

The liberal bias is always greater in newspapers than on television. Maestro did not rebut the proof of bias in the newspaper coverage.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:49, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
:The bias being greater in the press is not necessarily the case where I come from, but that's incidental. I'm not so familiar with the American media organisations to have noticed that point, but the main page didn't specify either way. No, Maestro didn't rebut any of the examples you gave; he simply gave other examples to show that it wasn't ''all'' the media. I wasn't sure whether to change it to "most of the media" or "some of the media", so opted for the latter as the safest bet. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:18, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

I would agree with liberal bias if the newspapers that are listed had mentioned the schools of the other children and just not mentioned that the winner ,Evan O'Dorney, is homeschooled. The papers list the towns where the children are from, but not the schools of any of them. Which as I understand, is normal for major reports about the National Spelling Bee. I would imagine that if the winner or a runner-up was a local kid(to that newspaper), then they might mention his school..--[[User:Tordenvaer|Tordenvaer]]

Not mentioning something is not the same as concealing it. I assume that if it was not mentioned that a hypothetical Nobel prize winner attended MIT, that would not be concealment. --[[User:1984|1984]] 12:21, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

Ah, but by mentioning only the hometowns of the kids, the reader would likely assume that they went to (public) schools, unless told otherwise. Therefore, not mentioning is concealment, is bias. Kinda like the common practice of quoting an "expert" without mentioning that said expert works for a liberal activist group.--[[User:JoeP|JoeP]] 19:19, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
:(of course, to be fair, when dealing with the media, one can never discount the possibility of laziness and ignorance...)--[[User:JoeP|JoeP]] 20:33, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

I saw an interview (on 'liberal' CNN) with the boy's mother. She's obviously a very well educated woman, with multiple degrees, and the family is wealthy enough to allow for her to stay home and teach him. But as a public school teacher in a poor district, I know that is rare. Many of my students have parents who did not graduate from high school, do not have a father present in the house (I live near a prison and many of my students have an incarcerated parent), and live well below the poverty line. These are the kids in trouble and homeschooling is not an option for them. It's not a panacea for the high dropout rate. The [[Catch-22]] situation is many kids who have trouble at school also have trouble at home, and homeschooling won't work. A mother who pulled her kids out of my district to homeschool them was sighted in a bar in the middle of the day. You can't just assume a parent will be a good teacher. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 22:34, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

: On average, across all demographics, homeschooling is significantly better for the student and much cheaper. You don't say how much your "poor district" spends per child, but $15,000 per child per year is typical. Homeschooling costs maybe $1000 per child per year.

: I'm not saying that learning at home is better in every single case. I am saying that it is better on average, it is better for most people, it is better for many high or low achievers, and less time spent is public school is probably better for nearly everyone. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:05, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

Parents who make choices which wind them up in prison tend to hold liberal ideologies, so it's not surprising that their kids suffer for it. Most homeschoolers are conservative christians which explains their success later in life (and the afterlife!!!). it's a question of scope and focus. Everyone is NOT equal. Those kids just need to work harder and stop looking to their jailbird parents as examples. {{unsigned|NothingVentured}}

Work harder. Great advice for the KINDERGARTENERS I teach, NV. And can you back up that 'most prisoners are liberals' opinion? Most homeschooled kids are successful because their parents are capable teachers. I have parents in my district...right and left wingers, Christians and atheists, who cannot read (I know because they ask me to fill out permisson slips for them). 80% of our students eat breakfast and lunch here for free because their parents can't afford the 80 cents per meal. It's now summer, but the cafeteria stays open because if we don't feed these kids THEY WON'T EAT. We're the ones who report the kids being sexual abused, then get threatened by the parents. We're the ones who provide, sometimes out of our own pockets, clothes for them to wear. We provide showers for kids who don't have running water. We buy supplies for kids who don't have them. We care when no one else does. So please don't act like these kids would be better off with their parents (or whoever is 'watching' them) teaching them at home. I've been told more than ten times 'Mr. X, I wish you were my father.' Homeschooling works for the educated and wealthy. I dont' teach in that district. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 01:24, 4 June 2007 (EDT)
:From my understanding of talking to homeschoolers, you don't need to be all that well educated to homeschool, because the curriculum material provides all you need. Your point about parents that are basically illiterate is probably valid; they would need to be able to understand the curriculum well enough to know what they children need to learn, and to be able to check their work against the curriculum material, but comments that you have to be well educated to homeschool is probably going too far the other way. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 02:15, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

Great point. But let me use myself as an example. I've taught lower elementary for ten years, and have a masters degree in information technology. But I'd be sunk if I had to teach my daughter plast the fifth grade, and absolutely lost with a high school curriculum. I know nothing of chemistry, physics, German, French, higher math, etc. And just parroting the curriculum won't do me any good. With math, science, and foreign languages, you have to really know and understand the subject. It's not enough to know the answer to a math problem, you have to know why. Of course, education does not end at home. I'd do carts if parents would read to their children, help them with homework, and teach them things on their own. Most do. Many do not. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 02:33, 4 June 2007 (EDT)
:The point that I was trying to make is that (some of?) the curriculum materials used by homeschoolers are apparently ''designed'' to be sufficient without the parents having to know much (although I'm guessing that the curriculum material comes with notes for the parent-teachers to help them answer questions, etc.). Now how true all that is, I don't know from personal experience; it's just what I've learnt from people who do homeschool. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:01, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

==Colleges veer left for '07 speakers==

Left-leaning speakers outnumbered conservatives by a ratio of 8-to-1 [http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070531-115046-2578r.htm Colleges veer left for '07 speakers] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 22:28, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

::No offense, but thats really not something new. Colleges are bastions of leftist thought.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 01:27, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

::: The 8-to-1 ratio is shocking. Liberals often deny bias, and even when they admit it bias they often claim it is slight. An 8:1 bias is astounding, and it wouldn't surprise me if liberals try to deny it.

::: Crocoite, can you post this on the main page also? Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:37, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

::::Done. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 01:48, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Palestinian Kindergarten Graduates Vow to Die for Allah==

The kindergarten is run by the Islamic Association in Gaza, which is the group that gave rise to Hamas. [http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200706/INT20070601a.html Palestinian Kindergarten Graduates Vow to Die for Allah] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 22:28, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
::I love how liberals call Christians "fundy loons", and seem to ignore this. This is reality, albeit frightening.[[User:Bohdan|Богдан]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 22:33, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm a left leaner and I'm a proud Christian. No one should be telling kids they need to die for religion. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 22:36, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

: Crocoite and/or Bohdan, please go ahead and post news like this yourself by going to [[Editing main page]] and entering it either in the first link or the second. Anything that has been up for 24 hours can be replaced. The homeschool spelling bee picture and comment, for example, is due to be replaced and your story would be an excellent replacement. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:10, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

::Done. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 00:20, 3 June 2007 (EDT)
:::I would do that, but I'm always afraid of messing up and somehow accidently causing horrible damage. [[User:Bohdan|bd]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 01:06, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

:: Looks great. Terrific! Feel free to do other stories like that in the future.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:13, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Anti-war educators exploit The Children in the name of peace==
Three-year-old toddlers are used as props for an anti-war protest at a local politician's office[http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007650.htm Anti-war educators exploit The Children in the name of peace] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 02:24, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

I've seen a few toddlers in anti-gay rights marches. This door swings both ways. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 01:25, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

==Targeting girls' schools in Pakistan==
Islamic extremists have bombed at least four girls' schools and circulated violent threats warning girls to stay at home [http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007638.htm Targeting girls' schools in Pakistan] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 02:31, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Abortion clinic employee guilty of sexual abuse==
The employee of an abortion facility in Connecticut has issued a guilty plea in a case involving the sexual abuse of three teenage girls [http://lifenews.com/state2311.html Connecticut Abortion Facility Employee Pleads Guilty to Sexual Abuse] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 02:50, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==What happens when you read past a NYTimes headline==
The NYT headline read '''Doubts Grow as G.I.’s in Iraq Find Allies in Enemy Ranks'''. Here's part of the ''real'' story - Still, Captain Rogers says their mission in Kadhimiya has been “an amazing success.”“We’ve captured 4 of the top 10 most-wanted guys in this area,” he said. And the streets of Kadhimiya are filled with shoppers and the stores are open
[http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007609.htm What happens when you read past a NYTimes headline] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 03:00, 3 June 2007 (EDT)
:Obviously you get the truth! But then again, I don't read the NYT because their tradition of excellent journalism got tossed in the trashcan some 20-30 years ago. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 03:03, 3 June 2007 (EDT)
::I don't read it either - I rely on [[Michelle Malkin]] to pass on useful info. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 03:10, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Iraqi Civilians Revolt against Al Qaeda==
Many ''Sunni'' tribes in the province have banded together to fight Al Qaeda, claiming the terrorist group is more dangerous than American forces.
[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276597,00.html Baghdad Residents Call for U.S. Help to Battle Al Qaeda] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 03:42, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Giuliani Blasts Clinton's Tax Increase Plan==
Hillary Clinton said the tax increase would help balance the federal budget and provide health care for uninsured Americans - Anyone remember ''HillaryCare''? [http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/5/31/122840.shtml?s=ic Giuliani Blasts Hillary's Tax Increase Plan] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 03:47, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Terror Plot on New York City's JFK Airport==
Federal authorities announced they had broken up a suspected Muslim terrorist cell planning a "chilling" attack to destroy John F. Kennedy International Airport, kill thousands of people and trigger an economic catastrophe by blowing up a jet fuel artery that runs through populous residential neighborhoods.
[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277337,00.html Three Arrested, 1 Sought in Terror Plot on New York City's JFK Airport] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 04:01, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Connecticut Lawmakers Vote to Limit Use of Eminent Domain==
The state at the center of a national property rights battle moved Saturday night to limit the use of eminent domain, two years after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that homes can be taken for private development projects.
[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277433,00.html Connecticut Lawmakers Vote to Limit Use of Eminent Domain] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 04:05, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

*My own family is currently in litigation (protracted) over a city's taking our property. They want to "give" it to a private developer to build retail at street level, condos above, and a hotel. --[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 04:35, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==House Democrats Sidestep Own Rules==
After promising unprecedented openness regarding Congress' pork barrel practices, House Democrats are moving in the opposite direction as they draw up spending bills for the upcoming budget year[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277437,00.html House Democrats Sidestep Own Rules to Shield Lawmakers' Pork Barrel Projects] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 11:10, 3 June 2007 (EDT)
:From the article: "...36,000 earmark requests...have flooded the committee." '''36,000?!!''' They really have no shame, do they?--[[User:JoeP|JoeP]] 16:04, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

==Ahmadinejad: Israel's Destruction Getting Close==
''The writing is on the wall''... Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Sunday said the world would witness the destruction of Israel soon [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277448,00.html Ahmadinejad: Israel's Destruction Getting Close] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 11:17, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

: Great catch, Crocoite! I've replaced the Jimmy Wales story with yours.

: When you have something good, then feel free to replace any item that may have only been up for 12 hours. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:14, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

== Bryan Hathaway ==

I shouldn't have to work too hard to convince a wise and benevolent sysop that this page is hardly encyclopedic. [[User:Sevenstring|Sevenstring]] 00:17, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

: Amen. Jaques should know better, and I've commented on his talk page. Thanks for deleting the contents of the entry. I'll delete the entry itself now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:32, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

== Thad Cochran ==

As of 5 June 2007 at 12:52 AM (EST), Wikipedia has removed the section in the article about Thad Cochran which attempted to portray him as a racist by very, very loose association. --[[User:Tordenvaer|Tordenvaer]]

: That deletion is certainly welcome. Thank you. But how about:

::(a) an apology by Wikipedia to Thad Cochran
::(b) discipline of the editors/admins responsible for that sophisticated smear
::(c) cleaning out similar smears like it on Wikipedia
::(d) all of the above

--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:11, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

: The smear falsely portraying Thad Cochran as a racist was in his entry since 01:18, 15 April 2007, remaining there for nearly two months and numerous subsequent edits to that entry. More than one Wikipedian admin and editor approved that baseless smear and it was only removed based on the complaint here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:31, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

The irony is that Wikipedia's attempt at a smear actually backfired, since the alleged racist quote came from a [[democrat]].--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 10:30, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

Unlike Conservapedia, Wikipedia does not require every change to be approved by an admin...there's just too many articles. It's possible some idiot put that change in, and, as it was an article about a somewhat obscure congressman, it's possible no one noticed. People sometimes edit parts of articles without reading the whole thing. And if administrators apologized for every jerk who vandalized their site, that's all they'd do. Do conservapedia admins apologize for the vandalism here? [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 11:20, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

: "A somewhat obscure congressman" and "it's possible no one notice"??? I doubt even [[liberals]] buy that one, Maestro. Many Wikipedians saw that vicious smear of a U.S. Senator, including a Wikipedian admin or two, and they did nothing about it.

: Many [[liberals]] don't mind [[deceit]]. But many deny that. We're not fooled by the liberal "play dumb" act here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:25, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

I guess we believe what we want. But to whom do you think Wiki should apologize to? The late senator? His family? If that's the case, are you just assuming they didn't? Are you in contact with the Cochran family? Also, the editor who put the smear in made exactly one wikipedia edit--that one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Myalterego They can't discipline him, he's long gone. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 11:30, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

: Maestro, you're clueless. The senator is alive and well and serving in the [[U.S. Senate]]. He deserves a public apology from Wikipedia. The editor who did this should be blocked - both is account and IP address. It makes no difference how many edits he's done. But don't expect the liberals controlling Wikipedia to take these actions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:55, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

:: Aschlafly, perhaps you should amend your tone. Calling another editor 'clueless' doesn't seem apropriate or productive. The editing situation on Wikipedia is just as Maestro described above. Wikipedia is not the product of some monolithic liberal conspiracy as you assume. The editor who introduced the false imformation was acting alone, apparently. Thus, your demands are not reasonable given the context. [[User:NothingVentured|NothingVentured]] 12:03, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

::: "NothingVentured", nothing has been gained by your liberal lecture. Wikipedia is overwhelmingly liberal, which of course you do not admit and may never admit. The liberal smear of Cochran was seen and approved by other liberals there, and no apology for it is forthcoming from Wikipedia. Indeed, Wikipedia has not even blocked the ID. and IP address that did the smear.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:15, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
::: There was nothing liberal about my 'lecture' as you label it. I simply sought to clarify your error about Wikipedia's editing process and to point out that you were not behaving in the best of all possible ways. Your remarks indicate that you lack a firm understanding of how wikipedia's editing processes work. For your critique to be effective it needs to display understanding. That is all. Everything else is, plainly put, pure flack (or spin) on your part. [[User:NothingVentured|NothingVentured]] 12:32, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

::Whoops, I thought he was the guy who just died of [[leukemia]] (they were both from Wyoming). So if someone came on Conservapedia, smeared a liberal politician with false though plausible sounding lies, and no one noticed for a couple of months, what would you do? Would you offer a public apology to the offended party? Or would you simply correct the mistake, ban the user, and move on? I think you're seeing a conspiracy, when it was just a lone vandal that didn't get caught. And did you post a message on the discussion page, asking for the editor to be disciplined? Did you research and correct the article yourself? Or did you realize this would be a fine opportunity to smear wikipedia, and leave the article as is? It's easy to find fault, it much more difficult to do something about it. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 12:46, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

::: Folks, you're both in [[liberal denial]], and Maestro you still lack a handle on the facts (Cochran's not from Wyoming). Yes, Conservapedia does block id's and IPs of smear artists, and we don't wait for someone to request it. Wikipedia should do likewise. Of course Wikipedia doesn't, because liberals there want to smear conservatives. NothingVentured, you can call that Wikipedia policy if you like. I'm not going to waste any more time explaining this here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:22, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

::Where is public apology of Conservapedia due to vandalism against articles of persons? Or what is the reason why CP does not have to apology vandalized articles and WP has to? I think common rules of behaving concerns also CP. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 12:40, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

The identical smear was used against Sen. George Allen [http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/30751.html] by HNN & the ''New Republic'' in an October Surprise. Problem is, there was no association in this guilt-by-association smear. And we have too long a record of WP acting in concert with these purveyors and manufacturers of lies. I can produce evidence, if you so desire, of the ArbCom Chairman wishing to clean up WP's Harry Reid article because "he might be the next Majority Leader" ''at a time when the Stu Rothenberg Report said'' Democrats had little chance of regaining the Senate. Can you say, "illegal campaign contribution", becuase WP entries on Congress people do have a discernable monetary value. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:25, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

== Speaking of vicious smears ==

Has anyone seen [[Pat Robertson|this]]? A total disgrace.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 10:21, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

: I'm not sure why you say it is a "vicious smear" as bad as Wikipedia's entry about Thad Cochran. If your complaint is genuine, then please improve [[Pat Robertson]]. The page is not protected.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:25, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
::I've disliked the Robertson article for a long time, because all it is is quotes, most likely out of context, just to make him look bad. But what other information is there about him worthy of an encyclopedia? [[User:Bohdan|bd]] [[User talk:Bohdan|Talk]] 13:34, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

:::Here's some references [http://www.cbn.com/700club/showinfo/staff/patrobertson.aspx The 700 Club Staff Bio -- Pat Robertson] and [http://www.patrobertson.com/ Pat's Web Site] [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 13:57, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

::Well, I removed the smear quotes from [[Pat Robertson]] but some liberal immediately reverted them. I give up.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 13:45, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

It's not a Cochran-type smear if the quotes are genuine. I have mentioned a few times in the past that I think that the Robertson quotes take up way too much of the article and make him look bad, but it's not disinformation per se. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 14:05, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

: I think Conservateur is being less than straightforward here, and he can take that as a warning that his account will be blocked if I see similar examples in his other edits.

: Speaking generally, I observe that while liberals delight in [[deceit]], conservatives outgrew that amusement at age 6 and we've moved on to more productive activities.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:12, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

::Do you honestly think the quotes in the article were put there for any other reason than to make Robertson look like a modern-day [[Cotton Mather]]? I can't believe I'm even having to explain this. And where did I ever say it was as bad as WP's Cochran smear? That was your assumption. What I'm saying is that the Robertson quotes are clearly taken out of context in order to try to smear the man.--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 15:55, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

== Boston Globe article ==
So, um, where exactly is the review of the Pat Robertson article in that article? There is a brief mention of his name at the beginning but it says nothing of the article on him. --[[User:Colest|Colest]] 09:03, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

:Oh, good grief. I assume that whomever put this on the main page is making some kind of subtly ironic joke... or has failed to perform due diligence and actually read [http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2007/06/06/just_the_facts____and_theyre_always_right/?p1=email_to_a_friend the article]. It is not a news item or an editorial, or even an op-ed. It's by columnist Alex Beam, a sort of humorist who takes an acerbic, opinionated view and is often ironic. In this case, however, what he says about Conservapedia is perfectly clear:
::*"...Conservapedia, the online encyclopedia for right-leaning wing nuts..."
::*"Andrew Schlafly...has created 'an encyclopedia you can trust.' And you can trust them, to give you some pretty loopy definitions."
::*"its... homosexuality entries ... do not betoken a broad-minded view of men and women at ease with their sexual identities... Conservapedia quotes the author of 'A Parent's Guide to Preventing Homosexuality' to the effect that 'there is no such thing as a homosexual, but only heterosexuals that have a homosexual problem.' Color me a heterosexual who has a Conservapedia problem."
:The only thing he has to say that isn't explicitly an attack on Conservapedia is that he calls Conservapedia an instance of "modern Americans' penchant for seeking out congenial realities, known as 'cocooning,'" which he says both conservatives and liberals are prone to. "But until Leftopedia comes along... I have only Conservapedia to kick around."
:If this deserves main-page mention, the Globe article should be described somewhat accurately.
:Perhaps
::"Conservapedia continues to attract mainstream press attention. Read how it gets under the skin of Boston Globe columnist Alex Beam."

[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 10:31, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

:I agree with you Dpbsmith and the change is made. Excellent recap of the article and an appropriate suggestion. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] [[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]] 11:02, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

Well, the long and short of it is, this article is going to attract a lot of publicity to CP. Prepare to repel boarders. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 10:57, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

During this spring in Europe there has been much publicity for Conservapedia also in main papers. Articles are describing CP which is seen first only as joke, but it is mentioned not to be a joke or a parody. Articles are noting that there are really living people who have written it seriously. (some net articles collected on my talk) --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 12:01, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

: [[Liberals]] over-rely on mockery, and have done as long ago as their mockery of [[Jesus Christ]]. It's easy to try to mock what one does not understand. The extent to which [[liberals]] are so senselessly self-amused is itself amusing to watch. In many cases, the [[liberals]] did not even realize that what they were mocking (e.g., Northwest Octopus entry) was a parody of themselves.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:15, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

:: There is no idea to put such kind of joke articles in main namespace if this site is trying to be an encyclopedia. --[[User:Aulis Eskola|Aulis Eskola]] 13:12, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

:: [[Liberals]] are obviously not familiar with [[Proverbs]] 9:12...
:::''"If you are wise, your wisdom will reward you;''
:::''if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer."''
::--[[User:Conservateur|Conservateur]] 16:48, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

I was surprised that Conservapedia placed the link to Beam’s article on its main page. Oh well. It just proves that there is much to mock at this site. --[[User:McIntyre|McIntyre]] 12:58, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

:Bottom line, it does not really criticize us. It alleges Pat Robertson & the 700 wrote evertything, but apparently the author never read our entry on Robertson (written by vandals). Then it praises for our entry on Ann Coulter, again written by vandals. Talking about this only serves their purpose, diverts us from our work, and is just really another larger disruption. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 13:00, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

::Guys just ignore the media. Thats the trick you ignore them then they wont have anything to write about because we didn'y answer them or take any comments. Just ignore them and do what we do best and thats build this place to greatness.--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 14:22, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

::(Replying to RobS) No, the article ''does'' criticise Conservapedia, and it does not allege that Pat Robertson and the 700 wrote everything. It says that it ''looks like'' they wrote everything, as in the way they are written is like they would write them, but it doesn't actually claim that Robertson et. al. did. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:04, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

RobS, you need to take a course in reading comprehension. The Boston Globe article was very critical of Conservapedia, and did a good job of making this site look stupid. On the up side, the article may drive some people to view Conservapedia, if not for information, but in the hope of some amusement. --[[User:McIntyre|McIntyre]] 09:41, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

*McIntyre, you need a course in civility. All publicity is good publicity. Do you make most of your living working and minipulating the media? I do. The repsonse was spot-on. If you think this place a joke, just please post on my talk page saying so, and I can help you out.--[[User:TK|Sysop-TK]] [[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]] 10:02, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
:He didn't indicate that he thought the site was a joke. Saying that some people might come here for amusement is offering an opinion on their motives, not on whether this site is a place for amusement. Hopefully, those who come here for amusement might end up changing their mind. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:32, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

== Today in History ==

Hey we need to update the colum Today in History.--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 11:03, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
:I've just done my bit. :-) [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:17, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
::Also this is the anniversiy of [[D-Day]].--[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 13:03, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
I added a few things. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 13:08, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

== Building web traffic - most popular searches ==

I think in order to build web traffic that the search engines are going to be key. Therefore, it makes sense to create articles which have the most search engine queries as long as they are serious subjects and not merely "pop topics" (Britney Spears).

Here are some tools that will be helpful:

Most popular searches: http://www.portalmix.com/english/searched.htm

What people search for: http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2156041

Google Keyword Tool: https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal

Using the Google Keyword Tool above I was able to add 10 articles that need to be created to the [[Conservapedia:Articles That Need To Be Created|articles that need to be created list]] that were related to the search engine keyword "Conservative".

[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:46, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

SOME OF THE MOST POPULAR INTERNET SEARCHES

*[[Atkins diet]]
*[[Attilla the Hun]]
*[[Australian Open]]
*[[Black History Month]]
*[[Capital punishment]]
*[[Census]]
*[[Dale Earnhart]]
*[[Drudge Report]]
*[[Foot and mouth disease]]
*[[Gladiator]]
*[[Groundhog day]]
*[[Humor]]
*[[Love stories]]
*[[Love poems]]
*[[Tour de France]]
*[[The U.S. Open]]
*[[Tennis]]
*[[The British Open]]

==New York Times Buried The JFK Terror Plot Story==
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25770&only [[User:Jaques|Jaques]] 18:57, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

User talk:Aschlafly/Archive36

2008-03-16T03:17:16Z

DHayes: Since "Template:Tfa" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #31 on the Wanted List.)

==Banners==
alright, howabout a banner that displays the Con-Commandments so that your editors will start following them instead of bending them to fit an agenda? The point of an encyclopedia is to inform, not sway people to a certain point of view. Even if that is the case, you have rules right on your main page illustrating how an article should be presented, I felt that these articles(as well as others I was going to plaster) didn't fit the bill or follow the rules.[[User:Acronym|Acronym]]

: You're the first person in a year and about 370,000 page edits to post such a ridiculous banner. So, no, that does not require "rule". Moreover, the banner was wrong: the [[liberals]] entry is accurate and you have not identified any error in it. We don't allow censorship, or downplaying, educational truth here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:58, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Wow, I am the first in so long, must mean I am like the messiah or something then aye!? Also, if you wanted educational truth on these pages, why have a disclaimer explaining that you aren't liable for "incorrect information"?
I have an issue with this blanket statement:"A Liberal is a believer in many of the following political positions:"
soooo...
Rudi Giulliani is a liberal, because he believes in: taxpayer funded abortion?

In that track you could label a "conservative" as one who believes in the opposite of everything a liberal does...but what of those who believe in a combination of these 'tenets'? A distinction between social liberal, economic liberal, and any others seems appropriate. I keep thinking of something I keep reading from sysops: "keep an open mind" oh well.

[[User:Acronym|Acronym]]

: Right, [[Rudy Giuliani]] is a [[liberal]]. There are [[liberal]] [[Republicans]], you know. By the way, you should sign your name using the signature button above the edit space. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:51, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Okay, well, what about his stance on the death penalty and immigration-following "typical" conservative train...is he NOW a conservative? My point is you can't put everything into two categories. --A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 16:08, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: You could say the same thing about science: "you can't put everything into __ categories." But categories are useful in science, and also in politics, and just because there may be exceptions that should not prevent characterizing and categorizing political positions. If one wants to go the know-nothing route with respect to describing the liberal ideology, then Wikipedia is a better place for that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)

:: Shall I now accuse you with using "[[liberal style]]"?--Taking things out of context AND misquoting me! I said TWO (2) II categories were not accurate representations of things. I do not disagree with categories, just under-representations of them.--A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 21:35, 20 January 2008 (EST)

::: So, we're focusing on the two biggest categories. What ... should be have separate category for people who think that secession should be allowed or want animals declared to be human? It makes sense to focus on the two biggest and most important categories.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:43, 20 January 2008 (EST)

You are straying a little far, slow down. I am just thinking instead of focusing, like you said, on the two "biggest" categories, realise that there are parts in these categories that are very important. Someone who wants privatized social security but is against the death penalty cannot be considered "conservative" or "liberal", but both economically conservative and socially liberal.
Also: What would make secession illegal? Animals aren't humans, but as living creatures, shouldn't they be respected as humans are? And, just because things are BIG, relatively, doesn't mean they are IMPORTANT.--A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 21:58, 20 January 2008 (EST)
: Animals are part of God's creation, and we are supposed to look after God's creation, not abuse it, but we shouldn't treat animals as humans, because God put humans above animals, giving humans "dominion" over the animals. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:46, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Please don't get in on this conversation... thank-you --A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 17:08, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Request for night editing rights==
Can I please have night editing rights? I live in the UK, so the nighttime lockdown presently means that I can't edit in the morning, which is frustrating. (If you'd prefer that I get more experience and build up a longer track record before you can trust me with the rights, then that's OK; I wasn't sure if there was a required minimum number of edits or anything like that.) [[User:Walton One|Walton One]] 13:52, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: We'll take a look at your edits. Thanks for contributing and asking.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:56, 20 January 2008 (EST)

I'd also like to ask for night edit rights, but like Walton I'm not sure if there's a minimum edit requirement. --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 20:37, 20 January 2008 (EST)

==Unlock==
Hey andy - can you unlock [[Template:Who says]] for me? I just want to clean it up a little with breaks and such. Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:34, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, Iduan. And congratulations on a great contest ... that you initiated!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:53, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Done, and thank you :D! Yeah I'm really glad it turned out as nicely as it did ... only a few minor problems that are easily resolvable. I mean obviously the point system is far from perfect - I'm sure there are many critiques you and other editors have, but I think it's a start. And congratulations on scoring an unbelievable 1426 points!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:02, 20 January 2008 (EST)

:: It is a fantastic start. Your rule system was a big improvement, and we'll improve even further next time. I learned an enormous amount from my editing during the contest. Thank you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)

==contest==
Hi mr. Schlafly, when's the next contest? I might consider joining.
--[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 09:09, 21 January 2008 (EST)

: That would be super, Ben. It would be great if you could join our team. We're planning a "rematch" with the other team and we'll beat 'em next time. In the meantime we'll figure out how to improve the rules. Once we settle on the new rules, hopefully in a week or so, we can rechallenge them. Your suggestions on rule changes are welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:14, 21 January 2008 (EST)

I was actually hoping to join the other team, but I suppose i'll be whichever team needs another guy. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 09:19, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:At the beggining of each contest, the captains of the teams choose the team's players. You get put on whichever side chooses you!! :P --[[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 09:22, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Ben, it would be great to have you on our team in the next contest! Steve joined our team in the last contest, and did very well. It's good to see you editing again! ~ [[User:SharonS|Sharon]][[User talk:SharonS|Talk]] 10:19, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Hey your entry [[D.C. v. Heller]] was really fascinating Mr. Schlafly. when do you think that case will be resolved? --[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 13:44, 21 January 2008 (EST)

: Steve, it is a fascinating case. A decision will probably be issued in June. I'll be adding to our entry further, and you should feel free to do likewise!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:53, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::That is a really exciting case, and a well-written article, too, thanks for it! Andy, I saw the City of New York on the ''amicus'' list, and think I know why they're filing for the gun control side: don't they have a case pending against gun manufacturers right now? Do we have an article about that? And, I'm gearing up for Contest4.5 (?). Do we think it'll happen?-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 20:11, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::: We're going to have a rematch and crush Eagle Team next time!!! I'm already plotting how to do it ... and how to "reform" the point system!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:20, 21 January 2008 (EST)
:::: That thar's fightin' talk where I come from :D [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:24, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::::: Ha ha ha. We were just warming up, seeing what your team can do. The rematch will be the real one that counts!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:00, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::::::I second Andy - it was all strategy - genius strategy if I do say to myself :D --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:21, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Take a look at my recent edit history. I have been unable to get on due to night time edits, but I think my contributions still continue to be useful to conservapedia. I'll join the contest too if I get night time edit privileges first. Thanks. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 23:04, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:Thanks. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 11:05, 22 January 2008 (EST)

::Oh, wait, I did not get it. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 22:41, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Deletion of liberals on Wikipedia who want their entries deleted ==

The more I look into this the more I see a pattern. Wikipedia willingly deletes articles about liberals when the subjects don't want a biography but refuses to do the same when conservatives or neoconservatives want their articles deleted. May I send you an email detailing all the cases? [[User:SkipJohnson|SkipJohnson]] 16:35, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Just FYI==
Hey Andy, to avoid confusion, I thought I'd just make you aware that at the same time you were reverted the Nelson mandela edit of [[User:WindarLarches]], I was also, I, before you had made the warning, had blocked the user per what I thought was inexcusable vandalism. Obviously though, after I saw that you had warned him and decided to give him another chance, I retracted the block--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:30, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:Hey - could you give me an ok on everything I'm doing, I've started this relatively big project where I'm putting [[Template:University]] on every single university page. Examples include [[Harvard University]], [[Columbia University]], [[University of Connecticut]], and [[University of Southern California]]. If you could take a look at them and just give me an ok to keep going, I'd appreciate it.
:Oh, and one other thing: I'm also doing relatively boring start articles if we don't already have an article on an university. They require a bit of research, and thus every article has unique numbers, but beyond that the formula is really generic, as you can see in [[University of Maryland]] and [[University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill]] - is it ok that I'm creating those types of articles (I've written 6 total)? Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:54, 22 January 2008 (EST)

:: We're weak in the category of universities and your work is a godsend, Iduan!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:57, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:::Oh wow, thank you - I'll definitely try to keep it up then! Thanks again,--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:15, 22 January 2008 (EST)
Well after adding that template to 86 articles and creating 21 college articles, I'm going to move on from this - lol I'm sick of college!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== rights ==

Hi Andy, I'd like to request night edit rights. I'm not sure how many edits are needed though... --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 20:48, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:Hi - are you on? --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 01:38, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== Major vandal attack under way! ==

I think I have it under control, but I may not...-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 21:03, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Vaccine Injury Compensation Program ==

What do you think of [[Vaccine Injury Compensation Program]]? SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 22:47, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Time==
Hey Andy, can you give me a clock on how much time before editing is turned off, I was going to do some more templates, but they require at least 8 minutes each, and I don't want to do one if I'll get stuck lol, thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]]
:Hey, Andy, are you going to leave night on again tonight? If not, could you give me a time (same reason as above)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:19, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== the 25 Worst Court Decisions ==

I promoted [[Wickard v. Filburn]] to the second worst Supreme court decision, and explained why on the talk page. See [[Essay: the 25 Worst Court Decisions]]. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 00:18, 23 January 2008 (EST)

: Good effort, though I'm sure it ranks ''so'' high.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:54, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:That's worse than the Dred Scott decision which gave the court's approval for slavery? What about Plessy v Ferguson and the separate but equal doctrine? It isn't even on the list. What about the Sacco-Vanzetti conviction where two men where executed essentially on anti-immigrant sentiment? [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 21:57, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:: Your lack of open-mindedness is causing you to misread clear statements, such as "rulings overturned by the court system are not included." [[Essay: the 25 Worst Court Decisions]]. Help yourself: open your mind when you read here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:07, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:::So, if Roe v Wade were overturned tomorrow it would cease to be the worst court decision? Plessy v Ferguson was stare decisis for close to 60 years. It had a huge effect on jurisprudence and was a decision with no prior precedent built purely on racism. Thanks for recommending I remain open minded, I'll have to remember that when discussing disease prevention, genocide, or the shaking of children to death. It seems I'm closed minded in those areas. [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 22:23, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Vote ==

Click on the link to vote in my poll. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 23:05, 23 January 2008 (EST)
==Templates==
Andy, do we have two templates that are for the same thing? [[Template:PM]], [[Template:Prime Minister]]. If this is wrong, would you mind unlocking the articles so I could work on fixing it (this might take me a while)? Thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, nm, looks like you've gone to bed. Maybe tomorrow--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:33, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:: Still here. Unlocked as requested. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:53, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Ahh, thank you! I'm actually done and I haven't even made any edits - I know that sounds strange, but I was searching through the code and trying to figure out ways to combine them through the code alone, but I realized after doing a few that it would probably be faster, and less of a drain on the server, if I just went through every page [[Template:PM]] linked to and replaced it. Thanks so much anyways, as I wouldn't have been able to figure that out without testing a few, once I'm done, I'll put a note here and if you want, you can delete [[Template:PM]] (which is the one I'm replacing since it's obviously the lesser of two templates - see [[Tony Blair]] and [[Edmund Barton]]) --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:59, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, it's going to take me a long while to do all of those, in fact if you could somehow post a request of users to help switch Template:PM to Template:Prime Minister -I'd greatly appreciate it, as it gets very confusing with all the different parameters, but I'll try some more tomorrow, I'm off to bed early tonight, good night, I'll see you tomorrow--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 01:13, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Firefox==
I'm using a free trial version, and it keeps telling me information Im sending out is not encrypted. I don't know much about ssl or tsl or "secure sites", and the firefox help menu doesn't answer all my questions. {{unsigned|StevenM}}

: Just answer no to the encryption warnings, and permanently turn off those messages with that answer option if they bother you. No need to encrypt postings to a publicly available site!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:28, 24 January 2008 (EST)

::That's... misleading. The thing is that as far as I know, Conservapedia ''does not support'' encryption (and neither does Wikipedia, I assume). However, this doesn't mean that there is "no need" for it. Suppose somebody intercepted your Conservapedia password as you send it without encryption and then silently hijacks your account (and let's hope that you didn't use that password anywhere else). Encryption could have prevented that. Likewise, imagine somebody intercepting private Conservapedia mails.
::I freely admit that it's not ''likely'', but it's foolish to say that you don't ''need'' encryption when dealing with sites you send passwords and other personal information to.
::Yes, turn off the message, but keep in mind that there is a non-zero risk whenever you're working without encryption and that there can be significant damage if somebody exploits this. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 12:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:::Thanks Mr. Schlafly, I dont think theres much danger even if someone did steal my account. --[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 13:17, 24 January 2008 (EST)
::::Free trial version of Firefox? I don't think there is such a thing. Firefox is free, full-stop. Encryption is site dependent. As CP doesn't have encryption, then Firefox is correctly informing you that you are sending out information that is unencrypted. When you get the message there should be a dialogue box that has a check mark that you should select if you don't want to see the message again. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 13:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)

::::: Thanks for the tips.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:02, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Block Protocol ==

Hey Andy, first of all apologies that I haven't been around lately; I've been a little sick but getting better. But I had a question about using my newly minted block ability (thank you again!). I've blocked obvious vandals for infinite, obviously, but I've been using it in line with my own thoughts as to the best option, for non-obvious vandalism, and I wanted to get your opinion to make sure it's in line with site protocol. For example, where I see users being insulting, I tend to give them a short block to cool down, and a very short block (30 minutes) to people who are obviously "edit-warring" or pushing their liberal views without discussion. Is that appropriate? Your guidance is appreciated!-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 21:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)

: Short blocks make sense for inappropriate edits that do not rise to the level hopeless vandalism. Often I try to warn first. We don't block purely for ideology unless it leads to [[rule]] violations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:48, 24 January 2008 (EST)

: See [[Conservapedia:User rights#Blocking rights|here]]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:03, 25 January 2008 (EST)
==Article==
Hey Andy - can you unprotect [[Genocide]] temporarily? I'd like to add a source where there is a fact tag, and fix a few format things. Thanks so much!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:52, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:And can you also delete [[Phillips_Academy]]?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:43, 25 January 2008 (EST)

: Unprotected [[Genocide]] for you. Found nothing at [[Phillips_Academy]]. Perhaps someone beat me to it!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:47, 25 January 2008 (EST)
::: Yep, Joaquín Martínez beat you to it. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 05:23, 26 January 2008 (EST)
::I'm done - thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:53, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:::<s>Even more -there's a lot here - can you delete everything in [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/Nounwri this?] Just so you know I put a delete tag on most of them just to get rid of the vandalism (I'm also going to tell other sysops since there's so much). Thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:27, 26 January 2008 (EST)</s>
:::::Dan and Joaquin got them--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Sigh - I have another one - can you delete [[Actor / Actress]] - there's already [[actor]] - which has more content anyway--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:22, 26 January 2008 (EST)

: Done as requested. Thanks. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:35, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Thanks - and now I have a question. Why are we keeping Template:AboutC and Template:Tfa around? I was looking through [[Help:Templates]] and I noticed that we still had that.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:11, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:Oh and one more thing - since this category was only recently re-opened, it's kind of going without attention - so would you mind taking a look at [[:Category:Move requests]] (as there are more or less a dozen in there now) and could you also try to get the word out to sysops to check on that category? Thanks so much Andy!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
::I just deleted the templates, when I replaced them a while ago, I must have forgotten to delete the old ones. [[User:Jallen|Jallen]] 07:06, 27 January 2008 (EST)
===Rights===
Andy, given my Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan|recent nomination)) (with full support barring a "no vote"), I want to again ask for sysop rights. I'm not going to spend time again going over all the reasons I deserve them - because that'd be a waste of your time, and I've already demonstrated why I need them; but I would like to ask you to just look at my contributions. I've spent a great amount of time improving Conservapedia and the only reason I want sysop rights is so I can improve it even more. I'd like an answer tonight, but all I need is a simple "yes" or "no" answer - no explanation required - through email or my talk page, and while I'd rather have a yes - and while I can assure you that if you give me a yes I will not disappoint you at all, I'd would be much happier with a "no" over no response at all. Thank you so much, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:Since [[User:CollegeRepublican|CollegeRepublican]] has not been [[Special:Contributions/CollegeRepublican|productive]] for over a month perhaps his rights could be given to [[User:Iduan|Iduan]]. You did say on 22 December with regards to [[User:CollegeRepublican|CollegeRepublican]] that "the rights will be revoked if not used productively", although perhaps just over a month is too short a time in which to judge productivity. On the other hand one must be cautions about granting power to those who actively seek it.[[User:Iduan|Iduan]] may simply abuse such privileges in order to get his way when it comes to edits. He may also be an agent from the other place doing a lot of minor edits in order to gain more rights so that he will then be in a better position to indulge in mischief. [[User:SimonJones|SimonJones]] 11:23, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:: SimonJones, you haven't yet contributed to a substantive entry. You've been nothing but talk, talk, talk here, something [[liberals]] love to do. How about contributing something of substance first, and then maybe afterwards you'll be in a position to give advice?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 27 January 2008 (EST)

== Part of [[Swansea]] article is copied from [[Wikipedia]] ==

I have expanded the above article tonight and noticed that [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Swansea&diff=prev&oldid=239211 this addition] made on 18th July 2007 is word-for-word the same as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swansea&oldid=145045189 the passage in the Wikipedia article at the time]. A dubious statement has since been removed from the end of the passage by [[User:DanH]].

It is important information regarding Swansea and the history of Christianity in the [[United Kingdom]] and I do not feel able to check and re-write it accurately. Thanks, [[User:Barclay|Barclay]] 19:30, 27 January 2008 (EST)

==Hillary's Hollywood Values?==

Hi. I'm posting this here because it's appropriateness for the front page (even the talk page) is, uhm, ''problematic'', but I thought it might be of interest. Hillary Clinton has [http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/01/golden_earring_heralds_hillary.php chosen] for her campaign a song called "When the Lady Smiles", by the group Golden Earring. Problem is, the video for the song depicts the rape of two women, one of them a nun. Oops. The video was graphic enough that it was banned by MTV. I won't post a link here to the video, but it's out there if you Google it.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 10:29, 29 January 2008 (EST)

:I watched the beginning of it on YouTube. The band's lead singer portrays a commuter on a subway. He ogles a girl's leg. Then he fantasizes that the middle-aged nun has a younger woman's face. I stopped watching when he began assaulting her.

:But is this a ''bona fide'' [[campaign song]], or was it merely one of half dozen pop songs played (audio only) by local organizers of a small event?

:Let's not scrape the bottom of barrel looking for dirt - that's so petty, and not worth the effort anyway. How about an article comparing the candidates' stands on major issues of interest to conservatives? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:55, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== [[Carbon dating]] ==

Andy, have you had time to look at that source yet? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:55, 29 January 2008 (EST)

: Sorry, I was distracted. Will do today. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:03, 29 January 2008 (EST)

::Have you had time yet? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:26, 31 January 2008 (EST)

== Email ==

Still waiting for a reply. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 21:16, 30 January 2008 (EST)
==Contest==
Hey Mr. ASchlafly - can you update the # @ [[Conservapedia:Sysop_contest]]? I just realized it was outdated. Oh, and btw, this site is awesome - I just came here from CP - and it's just awesome in comparison (sorry a lot of my edits have been to the contest stuff - it's only because i think the system is so cool, but I plan to work on normal stuff soon)[[User:AriHatcher|AriHatcher]] 23:32, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:Wow - 25,000? You must not like any of the current candidates at all lol, thx for the update[[User:AriHatcher|AriHatcher]] 00:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)
==Contest(5?)==
Alright, I'm going to start cleaning up the scoring method based on issues last time, and I was wondering - are we going to start the next contest soon? Should I set it up? Because frankly, all that has to be done to the scoring is some fine tuning, then the captains will be the two people that scored the highest (LearnTogether and yourself), and then we can just find a judge. You and LT (assuming you both accept) could presumably start the draft tomorrow (we don't really need a list of interested users again - I'll put it up, but certainly we should allow captains to draft users that are not necessarily in that list). I know this all seems kind of fast, but trust me, I'm confident I can set up everything by then. My schedule is completely free today - and really all I have to do is:
#Fine tune the scoring
#Get the word out (easy - I'll put a note on each user's talk page and I'll put a note on the main page, and I'll recommend it as a breaking news story)
#Copy the most wanted list again (wow have you seen the one from last time? We got a lot done!) (I can do this tomorrow during the draft, as we only need it by the time the contest starts - which would be Monday).
So I mean, I can do all the dirty work - and all you and LT would have to do is pick on Sunday, and we'll start the contest on Monday. What do you think? (P.S. - I'm going to start refining the rules now, but that doesn't mean that I'm starting the next contest without your approval - just so you know)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 13:49, 2 February 2008 (EST)

: Great suggestion, Iduan. I'm not sure we can start it quite that quickly, and would like to fine-tune the rules a bit first. Let's discuss how the rules can be improved first.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:44, 2 February 2008 (EST)
::Ok, fair enough, and you're probably right - today and tomorrow would be the only day to discuss the rule changes - and that might not be enough, maybe Wednesday would be a better start time ... but nonetheless, just so you know, I'm going to go ahead and create the contest 5 page (like I created the contest 4 page last time - just so people can discuss the rules)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:51, 2 February 2008 (EST)
Alright - have a look - [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] - the changes I made are all based on issues we had in the last one or the contest before that, but obviously feel free to mark up whatever you like--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:56, 2 February 2008 (EST)
==Edit==
Andy, typically this doesn't happen to me - but I can't get the phrasing right to what I [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&curid=3943&diff=383983&oldid=383965 added to the George W. Bush article]. Given that it's such an important article, would you mind taking a look and seeing if you can improve it? Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 12:59, 3 February 2008 (EST)
:Thanks Andy - the consistently/persistently thing and the addition of the liberal bias link makes that a lot better ... mind at ease :D. (I'm not even going to comment on the fact that I spelled do due - because that might be the most embarrassing edit ever)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 14:21, 3 February 2008 (EST)

:: Iduan, can you send me an email offline?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:29, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== Image ==

Hi -

At WP there's a discussion over [http://www.conservapedia.com/Image:ASchlafly.JPG this image]; we're wondering whether, when you say that you 'release the rights to it', do you mean that you have put it in the public domain, or GDFL, or some other system? Thanks. --[[User:JOwen|JOwen]]

: Wikipedia can use it without restriction, as is Conservapedia's general approach to copyright issues. Too bad Wikipedia doesn't adopt the same unrestrictive policy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:57, 4 February 2008 (EST)

::Licensing arrangements provide more of an incentive for collaboration than merely putting something into the public domain.

::Wikipedia's approach to "free licensing" of text derives from the [[Free Software Foundation]]'s philosophy of mutual sharing. First applied to computer software, the [[GPL]] made it possible for developers to get "credit" (praise, appreciation, bullet points in their resume, etc.) for their donated work. It also made it impossible for anyone to create a [[derived work]] which they release without sharing.

::This turns out to have been a great incentive for computer programmers to collaborate on all sorts of projects, large and small. There's even been a free alternative to the [[Microsoft Windows]] operating system developed - properly called [[GNU]] ("Gnu's Not Unix") but more often called "Linux" (see [[Linus Torvalds]].

::The amount of [[free software]] out their is huge, and much of it is '''significantly better''' than any commercial alternative. Some of it is public domain, but quite a bit of it is "free licensed" under [[GPL]]. Every bit of software that makes Conservapedia possible - the GNU/Linux operating system which your server runs, the MySQL database which holds all the article versions, the MediaWiki software used to enter and display articles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 11:38, 12 February 2008 (EST)

::: Ed, the system you describe works well for software development, but not for encyclopedias or other documents. I don't know why Wikipedia thought that the exact same cumbersome system needed for maintaining and improving free software would make sense for a mere 1000-word educational entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:34, 12 February 2008 (EST)

==contest point system==
Andy - I wanted to make sure you knew about this change since you had already looked at the rules system before I made it - and I don't want you to feel like I'm blind-sighting you. BrianCo brought up the fact that many users were not organizing their points well, and it was causing problems for both himself and, presumably, the judge. So, I added the same very basic point layout I reccomended in Contest4, however this time we're also saying that any user that does not use this or a similar method will have 20 points taken off their score. I feel like this warning will also compel the team captains to keep their players in line - and it'll make the judges' work a lot easier.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:33, 4 February 2008 (EST)
===timing===
Uhhh - remember when I said I could try and set up the contest in one day? Thanks for '''not''' holding me to that - because even now we're not that near to being ready (especially since Learn Together - a captain, hasn't shown up for a while ...), although it's too bad - I have like a thousand ideas for articles that I don't want to write next so I can get big points in the contest :) --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)
===Unprotect Request===
Hey Andy - can you unprotect [[Template:Progress]] for a while? I'd like to standardize its look (this might take some time - but I should be able to quickly revert any vandalism that might happen while I'm working)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:52, 4 February 2008 (EST)
:Thank you! I didn't do the best color scheme possible - but it has the look :D --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:04, 5 February 2008 (EST)
===Email===
Just to let you know I will usually never do this, however I just sent you an email with private information in it - and if you could respond just to confirm you got it I'd appreciate it.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:13, 5 February 2008 (EST)

== moccasin - small request of not much importance :p ==

hi Andy, I created some pages earlier today, among them was [[mocassin]]. Since then, I discovered that while "mocassin" is an accepted alternate spelling, the more common spelling is "moccasin". (with 2 c's, one s). Could you please do me the favor of having a sysop either change the name of the page, or make a "redirect" page (I don't know how to do this yet) to "moccasin"? (or if it's ok, leave as is) I'm sorry for the confusion. Thank you very much for the assistance. [[User:Taj|Taj]] 00:05, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:Done. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:11, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:: Much thanks! :) Thanks to Geo for helping too, you guys are fast! [[User:Taj|Taj]] 00:13, 8 February 2008 (EST)
==Time==
Hey Andy - I think there's only one more issue that needs to be solved on [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] (whether or not breaking news edits should count) - so why don't we assume that the captains will draft tomorrow? (As of today, the captains would be you and Learn Together - however I'm not sure whether Learn Together is here or not - if it ends up that he's not here we can always just go down to the next highest scorer - Fox, thoughts?)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:12, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:Alright ... maybe next Saturday then.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:51, 9 February 2008 (EST)
==Email==
Andy, just so you know, I just sent an important email to you--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:17, 12 February 2008 (EST)
:P.S. should I move forward with the contest?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 08:32, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Question==
Andrew, I was wondering how you would substantiate the claim that the American public is twice as conservative as it is liberal after the recent primaries? These seem to indicate that the American public is at least twice as liberal as it is conservative. User: Jeffjeff. 23:09, 12 February 2008.

: The most liberal candidates on both sides were crushed by huge margins: Edwards on the Democratic side, and Giuliani on the Republican side. McCain is more conservative than most of the Republican frontrunners, though conservatives still have valid concerns. Obama and Clinton seem indistinguishable ideologically. Today Clinton was calling for universal health care, while Obama was not being as liberal. That contest seems to have devolved into a debate over race rather than ideology.

: If you need convincing about how conservative the American public is, take a look at our headline today about gun rights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:06, 13 February 2008 (EST)

== Technical problems ==

Mr. Schlafly there still appears to be something wrong with the site. There is a funny message in the top left-hand corner and fonts are very large. Also the main page is now incredibly wide. [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 08:49, 13 February 2008 (EST)
:I see that too - if it helps the message in the top left is: #$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit']=false; ?> [[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 08:57, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:: No problem with the site from my browser. There is a small error message in the top left-hand corner which will be fixed. It doesn't interfere with anything.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:01, 13 February 2008 (EST)

I must say I am having the same issue. I am using IE7 and the fonts and size of the windows are all different. When I am editing a page the text returns to seminormal but it is still very different than from 3 days ago.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:11, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::The site is quite normal for me! :P [[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 10:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Still on hiatus==
Andy, only have a minute to stop by. Still on hiatus. going through a massive reorganization of a business I had to retake control of. May have a few hours in the next month or two, hopefully.

God bless, and I'll have a mountain to catch up when I get back. RobSmith

: Thanks, Rob. We miss you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Agreed - we can't wait for you to return Rob!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:46, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==In the news==
I thought about putting this on the Main page but wanted to run it by you first. I think this site would be valuable to our Conservapedia editors. [http://felonspy.com/index.html FelonSpy.com - Search for violent criminals in your neighborhood] It's a free search so I don't believe it's advertising. You can either reply or post it yourself. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 20:25, 13 February 2008 (EST)

: Interesting, but let's pass on that, for several reasons. That site may install cookies or spyware on visitor's computers. But even if it doesn't, not all felons are violent or still dangerous. In fact, I think most felons are not dangerous at all. In general perhaps people should be less scared of their neighbors, not more so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:: Interesting site. Not sure that it is entirely serious. Did you notice their disclaimer: "Apparently we care more about your well being than your own politicians and their stupid laws do, but that probably doesn't come as too much of a surprise to you. Give money to anarchy societies anonymously, it's the only way to protect yourself". And their link to this site: [link deleted] I might just bookmark that. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:06, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::: Oops. I hope I didn't just spoil a joke you were playing on Mr. Schlafly. If so, sorry. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:14, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::::HMayo, I wasn't joking and I don't appreciate your accusation.
::::Andy, I created this page [[FelonSpy]] to warn our editors of their [[deceit]]. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 11:09, 14 February 2008 (EST)

:::: You're clueless, HMayo. See if you can contribute something substantive. At the rate you're going, you'll be blocked for inadequate substance.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:18, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::::: Yes... clearly I am the clueless one here. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:26, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Actually Andy - at first I thought the site was serious - I mean there was no indication it was a joke, and I even tried looking up my street (there were two "criminals" - surprisingly neither of which I knew). However after seeing HMayo's comment and checking again, I noticed that everything was different than the first time I looked it up - all of the names and places had changed. Now I'm not saying Crocoite knew about his in any way - and HMayo it's obviously inappropriate to take the accusatory tone you did, but, just for everyone's information, I do believe the site is fake.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:27, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:Of course it's a fake. That's obvious from a first glance. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 04:48, 14 February 2008 (EST)

User:DHayes/Row

2008-03-16T02:59:06Z

DHayes: Might as well compact things a bit...

|-
|style="background:{{{1}}}"|
|{{{2}}}||{{{3}}}||{{{4|}}}

Talk:Theory of evolution/Archive 2

2008-03-16T02:54:53Z

DHayes: Since "Template:AboutC" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #6 on the Wanted List.)

==Why has 'this page ... been locked to prevent editing'?==

Why has 'this page ... been locked to prevent editing'? Are those who locked it afraid to debate the points at issue (such as the very title's assumption that evolution is just a theory rather than an observable fact), or are they pretending that there are ''no'' points at issue (almost as if the Bible said so, when in fact it has nothing whatsoever to say on the subject, apart from suggesting some Divine input)? If the first, then they are admitting to the weakness of their position. If the second, then they are frankly misrepresenting the truth. Which, when you think about it, is a bit ironic, to say the least! If knowledge of the truth is supposed to set you free, what is suppression of it supposed to do? --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 12:08, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:There is simply no valid reason for this page to be locked. If one is to present a fair and balanced article on a controversial subject, one cannot close off the avenues leading to knowledge (in its true sense). Censorship is simply unconscionable. [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 17:30, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

::Give me a break! We're not censoring anything. We're just writing this article with a conservative perspective. That's not censorship and you ought to be ashamed to write such preposterous claims. And, of course, your absurd comment that we close off "avenues leading to truth". That's what ''Wikipedia'' does. We are opening the avenues of truth, but you don't want to see it. All you want to see is the filthy lies that come out of your mouth. That's not knowledge; that's foolishness. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 07:43, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Methinks describing NousEpyrrhytos's comment as 'filthy lies' reveals (a) abuse, (b) contempt, (c) bigotry and (d) extreme lack of perspective. Still, at least we shall all know in future how seriously to take Scorpionman's contributions. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 08:09, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

::What, the same as you take Conservative's contributions? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 13:25, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:: It's locked to prevent vandalism and inappropriate edits. Wikipedia also locks many of its pages. We have unlocked pages too when the inappropriate edits decline.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:34, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:Define "inappropriate". [[User:NousEpirrhytos|NousEpirrhytos]] 18:21, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

::He just told you! Stop asking dumb questions. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 07:35, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

He did nothing of the kind. Stop ignoring what the texts actually say, whether biblical or otherwise. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 07:51, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes, he did. That's a really stupid question. What texts? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 07:56, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

(a) No he didn't: if so, quote the above definition. (b) It wasn't a question at all. (c) What NousEpyrrhytos wrote. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 08:14, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Aschlafly, the last part is an extreme euphemism. The [[Special:Log/protect|protection log]] shows which pages were ''ever'' unprotected:
:::*[[Examples of Bias in Wikipedia]] on March 11 (or 10, in some US time zones), re-protected within seconds.
:::*[[Theistic evolution]] on March 9 (or 8), had been protected while draft had been created.
:::*[[ACLU]] on March 8, re-protected half a day later because you didn't want an unsourced and possibly out-of-context quote to be removed.
:::*[[Earth]] on March 1, with the reasoning that the protection had been unnecessary.
:::*[[Dinosaur]] on March 1, with the same reasoning.
:::*Template:AboutC on January 19, because the admin didn't mean to protect it.
:::*[[The Theory of Evolution]] on December 18, re-protected since February 24 (or 23) to give [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] control over it. [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Theory_of_evolution&diff=next&oldid=16283 This diff] (right after re-protection) nicely shows what counts as "inappropriate edits" on Conservaedia.
:::*[[User talk:BenjaminS]] on December 4, by BenjaminS (apparently an error or a test - protection lasted less than one minute)
:::*[[Main Page]] on December 1, November 30 and November 22, re-protected since December 19 to prevent vandalism.
:::*[[How To Create a Conservapedia Account]] on December 1, with the reasoning that protection had been unnecessary.
:::10 cases, including the one which had been unprotected for less than a minute. 4 cases have been re-protected (and still are protected). Out of the 6 still unprotected cases, 5 had been protected unnecessarily. These numbers count the Main Page as one case (one of the 4 protected cases). If you count it as three cases, the Main Page breaks down into: 1 re-protected case, 3 protection/unprotection cycles happened without any vandalism causing them.
:::So I think you might want to rephrase your statement a bit. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 18:39, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

::Hey Squid (oops, Sid), I looked at the diff that you claim shows "inappropriate edits". I'll tell you what was inappropriate: the trash that was rightfully removed. None of the "misconceptions" that were previously listed are valid. Microevolution and macroevolution are ''not'' used to describe two different fields of research, they're quite different in process too. Microevolution doesn't turn chimps into people, and speciation is not macroevolution. The only real misconception about evolution is by evolutionists: that it is a fact. It is a theory, and I'm not confused about that term. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 07:56, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:::Wow, coming up with silly names. What is this? Elementary school? After seeing how you basically taunt everybody who argues for more balance and a dose of reality in some articles, I kinda hope that you're just a clever vandal. However, I fear that you really believe that the current excuse for an article about the "Theory of Evolution" is great. The majority editor is a guy whose sole goal is to prove it wrong, no matter what. That's like asking a radical atheist to write an article about God. Yes, Conservapedia is proud to have its bias (even though it never openly admits that on the more prominent pages - for a site that accuses Wikipedia of concealing, distorting, and omitting things, Conservapedia seems awfully eager to hide its own blatant bias and the fact that tons of articles are stubs), so the few pro-balance people are of course fighting a lost battle. This article will probably NEVER be unlocked (the same goes for ACLU, Faith, Second Law of Thermodynamics, YEC, and others), and the "good conservatives" will tell themselves that they finally managed to tell The Truth.
:::But you know what amuses me to no end? This section from [[Examples of Bias in Wikipedia]]: "Edits to include facts against the theory of evolution are almost immediately censored." How fitting, considering that this article here ONLY has "facts" against it and got protected to prevent it from ever being exposed to pro-evolution material. I said it before, I'll say it again: Conservapedia replaces Wikipedia's alleged bias with full, 100% ultra-pro-Christian and radically pro-conservative bias. It has become different than Wikipedia, but not better. And people like you make me doubt that that will ever change. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 09:38, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:Why should it change? Look, the point is that Conservapedia is going to be conservative, not "radical" just conservative, and Wikipedia is going to be liberal. Now if you don't like this then just stick to Wikipedia or EvoWiki (talk about a biased site!) [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:20, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:::this page is ridiculous, it is give no scientific evidence for the creationism theory. please, this is meant to be an unbiased site not a christian rave page
::It's amazing, actually. Anywhere else, you'd just be a sad little troll, but here, you're quite likely on your way to become a good role model. I have better things to do than "discussing" with somebody who I could automate with a Greasemonkey script. Just push the button and insert a generic "Conservapedia is good because it's so biased, but Wikipedia is bad because it's so biased! Because our bias is in line with God and The Truth!" speech into the current textbox. Push another button, and it dishes out a taunt. How does it feel to know that your entire existence could be replaced with a few lines of code without anybody noticing the difference? :) --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 16:01, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:: It is amazing how many pages are protected against free speech on this website. I just was pressing "Random page" for some times. And many pages were protected. In wikipedia only some pages are protected against IP's. Here EVERY page is protected against IP and many pages are protected even agains logged-in members. I do not get it. What are you afraid so much about here? That people help articles to improve? That people share their knowledge?
::Or is it just that you are afraid that some people might correct some wrong things that you wish to have true? The censorship on this webpage reminds me to the worst dictatorships in the world. Hitler burned books and people, who were against the regime were killed. When Eastern Europe was communistic - people were not allowed to say anything against the leaders or the political system. Especialy Scorpionman reminds me to the communists from the German Democratic Republic. They were building the wall through Berlin to imprison their own people in their state. But they told to the imprisioned that the walls are for keeping out the bad capitalists.
:: Scorpionman tells: "It's locked to prevent vandalism and inappropriate edits. " - Why is the "wall" around the article? To prevent vandalism? Or is the truth - to keep bias? HE also writes: "We're not censoring anything. We're just writing this article with a conservative perspective. That's not censorship " - That is how the comunists were arguing. Even when they were starting to build the wall, they said "Nobody wants to build a wall". Sonds quite similar to "We're not censoring anything." --[[User:Itsjustme|Itsjustme]] 19:10, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Ha ha, what you said is pretty amusing. Serious, but amusing nonetheless. I assume you've been reading Chris Hedges' new book on Christian m? He asserts that we're dangerous terrorists who are trying to take over the country and kill anyone who holds views contrary to their own. We must stop them!" Sounds like paranoia. That's what liberalism has degraded to: paranoia. You know, ironically, this is exactly what happened in ancient Rome! Christians were viewed as a threat, and consequently were treated horribly. They were burned, thrown to the lions and other horrible things I won't say. I'd say we're coming very close to that in America: "Christians are a threat and we need to remove them." And as for the other stuff, no we're not afraid of your beliefs, heck you can belive anything you want! We're not afraid to debate you either, but frankly it's not really edifying or constructive. It doesn't do anything either, especially these silly internet arguments that culminate in nothing more than name-calling and childish insults. Now unless you have something useful to post, don't bother posting, like I've said before. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:44, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:Since this conservative view of evolution doesn't please you, I don't expect any will but why don't you try reading [http://www.creationwiki.org/Evolution CreationWiki's article on evolution?] Perhaps you may find it at least a little more satisfactory. Cheers. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:58, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Hate to disappoint you and all, but 9 out of 10 people in America actually believe in a supreme being. You have references to God in your pledge of allegiance. Now, please tell me how Christians are percieved as a threat. As for the 'stop with the insults' line, you were the one who used Squid. I mean, thats not even a decent and/or witty insult. It reads like its written by a 16 year old who's voice hasnt broken yet and who gets beaten up at school. And about the paranoia, its always the conservative parties that use fear and paranoia as a tactic to get themselves elected. Examples of this include the use of the percieved threat of communism, terrorism...whats next? atheism? sounds like it from what you're saying...sure, Christians were burnt at the stake...so were a lot of other people. It was a tragedy, but so were the Crusades. If you're not afraid of debating then allow other users to edit this site. ---[[User:Dezza91|Dezza91]] 03:33, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:I have no power of the locking or unlocking of this page, so stop complaining to me about it and complain to Conservative or Aschlafly. I don't get beaten up at school, I was homeschooled and my voice ''has'' broken. But that's enough information; it's not safe to give out too many facts about yourself over the internet these days. Christians ''are'' percieved as a threat; you've obviously never heard of Chris Hedges or his book on the Christian Right and how we're ts and trying to take over the country. If you haven't, read it. It's ridiculous, but it will show you that I'm right in what I "claimed". I even found an article on the internet the other day (some obscure site and I forgot the address, it wasn't even worth remembering) that talked about how dangerous Christians and creationists are. Make sure you do the homework before immediately denying what I said. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:54, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

I don't believe scorpionman is for real. He (she?) is a provocateur.

:If there's a provocator here, it's you, Juglander. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:54, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

: One thing I think scorpionman is forgetting that being conservative and christian are not necessarily the same thing. Also, there are many christians who believe evolution happened (I myself happen to be one). And it helps to be open minded, I have my opinions, but if you can make valid arguements to one point my opinion can change, but attacking my beliefs without backing it up does a greater mis-service to you. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 12:35, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

The guy's got a point, scorpionman. Chris Hedges wrote a book ripping off Christians. Wow. Does that mean everyone holds his views? You were homeschooled? HAHAHA! We're complaining to you because you defend the locking of this page, not because you were responsible for it. And you said you found one site that says how dangerous Christians are? One site? I can show you sites that deny the Holocaust, and provide evidence that is completely true. That doesn't mean that most people hold this view. That doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't happen. All it means is that they got 1 piece of evidence about population redistribution and ran with it. They forgot to mention the video evidence of people (mainly Jews, but there were others, particularly Russian peasants) being shot, tortured, abused, and basically being treated like animals. You are taking a single book and saying that this a majority viewpoint. I could take the manual on witchcraft, and claim that its a majority viewpoint. Show your evidence, from an independant source, that a clear majority of people worldwide (America doesn't constitute the globe and all it's people) believe that the Christian Right is threatening and dangerous. --[[User:Dezza91|Dezza91]] 23:56, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

== Archive ==

This talk page should be archived, as it's getting too long and my browser always takes a long time to open it. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 08:03, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

You could even say it's evolved to a more advanced state! [[User:BaggerOfWolves|BaggerOfWolves]] 08:11, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

::Ha ha, clever! [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 13:23, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:Done. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 08:15, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

== Seems to me ==

that this is a very radical site. I think it might be appropriate to notify the FBI and have the terror alert raised... I sense a Christian Jihad.
: Did you allready inform FBI?

:No doubt you've been reading Chris Hedges' new book about Christian m, no? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:16, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

== Creationist Lies, and Hoaxes ==

"In fact, one consistency among the Dover school Board members' testimony, which was marked by selective memories, and outright lies under oath..."
- ''Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District'' 400 F. Supp.2d 707, n.7 at 727.

: dude i saw that too...scary. i don't htink god wants us to lie to force his Word on others. --[[User:Ilovecoulter|Ilovecoulter]] 23:12, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:: That quote reminds me of [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2013:7-9;&version=46; Job 13:7-9 (CEV)]<blockquote>"''Are you telling lies for God and not telling the whole truth when you argue his case? If he took you to court, could you fool him, just as you fool others?''"<blockquote>

== Bah ==

I have serious problems with this article. It provides a plethora of evidence against evolution, but it does not list any of the pro-evolution facts, of which there is an equal if not greater number. We are striving for the truth, what is best for Christian doctrine, is that correct? [[User:GofG | GofG]] [[Special:Contributions/GofG||||]] [[User talk:GofG | Talk]] 21:40, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:Once again, voicing your own opinion. Like the Proverbs say, a foolish man refuses to listen to instruction, but prefers to err his own opinion. I'm not trying to offend anyone, if anyone did any offending it was the Bible, and the Bible has every right to. Since you claim that the evidence for evolution "is equal to if not greater in number", then give us a few examples! The only ones you'll be able to give is speciation, which is not evidence for macroevolution, and no doubt fossils such as archaeopteryx and tiktaalik, each of which are full-one or full the other. Now stop with this nonsense. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:15, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:: In all fairness, evidence for micro evolution is evidence for macroevolution. It shows that it can happen, and theoretically if it were to happen when an entire population was located in one spot, it wouldn't be too far off. --[[User:Ronnyreg|Ronnyreg]] 22:21, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:No, you're wrong. Evidence for microevolution is ''not'' evidence for macroevolution. Do these little mutations cause the organism to change to a totally different animal? Do random mutations happening all the time cause evolution toward the more complex? No! Mutations are either neutral (which certainly wouldn't advance evolution) or they're harmful. In rare cases are they beneficial, and these rare beneficial ones are hardly anything to talk about. You know I still can't see why you're taking this here instead of your precious "Talk.Origins" website [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:47, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

::: of course evolution isn't random, did you ever pay attention in biology? Evolution happens to give an aid or advantage to a species, and generally it stays the same species but is a little varient. Mutations are sudden major changes in a species, by the way, often due to a major change in typically environment or diet. Mutation is different from evolution. I don't see why you have to be so bitter, you act like evolution proves God doesn't exists.--[[User:Ronnyreg|Ronnyreg]] 22:55, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

::Evolution proves ''nothing'', on account of the fact that it isn't even proven. I'm referring to macroevolution by the way. Microevolution has been observed and proven, but it doesn't support the Theory of Evolution. You got a wrong definition of mutations; they are any change in the gene code. You should be well aware that the most famous effect of mutations is cancer, which is not beneficial but can cause death. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 23:03, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

::: So cancer would be a mutation, but not an evolution. We're talking about the specific of evolution. Even if my definition of mutation is wrong, you're arguing something that doesn't actually have to do with evolution. --[[User:Ronnyreg|Ronnyreg]] 21:34, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

== What Evolution is and Is Not ==

Evolution is genetic change over time; any evolutionary biologist - the only person qualified to make this judgement - will tell you this. It simply deals with change in genes. There is overwhelming evidence for this, including that DNA replication is not perfect, small changes in an amino acid chain produce profound effects, and not all organisms within a species are exactly the same. Over extended periods of time, these differences add up to large changes within a species.

Evolution is not an explanation for the origin of life. Before the origin of life, there were no genetic mutations, so it would be wrong to apply evolution to the origin of life. That is a question that must be taken up with chemists and geologists, not evolutionary biologists. It is unfair to point out flaws in evolution's explanations on the origin of life if it makes no attempt to do so.

Evolution also does not explain the origin of the universe. These seems obvious, but people still point out flaws the theory's attempt to explain the origin of the universe, even though it only describes changes in genes over time. Astronomers and physicists describe the origin of the universe, not evolutionary biologists.

Finally, evolution is one of the major unifying themes of biology. Organisms would not exist today if they did not change over time. The earth changes, and organisms change with it.--[[User:Venfayth|Venfayth]] 22:38, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

:Stop digging up dead arguments. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:48, 12 March 2007 (EDT)
:: And these are "dead arguments" exactly how? [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 22:53, 12 March 2007 (EDT)
:Just how many times have they been used and not proved a thing? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:31, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
:: Hmm? An argument not convincing someone doesn't make it a bad argument. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:40, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
:The burden of proof is on you, Scorpionman. For over a hundred years, the theory of evolution has been tested to try to prove it wrong. As of yet, nobody has succeeded. What is your scientific proof that genes do not change over time?--[[User:Venfayth|Venfayth]] 23:01, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
::No, the burden is on you. You don't have proof that they ''do'' change over time. And the theory of evolution has been disproved, though evolutionists will not admit it. And the Bible has been around a lot longer than your theory and it has never been disproven, so you've got nothing to brag about. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 08:13, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
:::Did you honestly just say the Bible has never been disproven? When it comes to scientific matters, the Bible has constantly been disproven. "The sun stood still and the moon stayed — and hasted not to go down about a whole day!" (Joshua 10:12-13) This seems to conflict with the heliocentric theory of our solar system. We now know that the sun does not revolve around the earth, and that is fairly clear. I noticed that you are a young-earth creationist and believe that the earth is 6,000 years old or so. However, the grand canyon is six million years old, according to all modern geologists. Are you telling me that you know more than scientific proof? Don't give me any crap about a flood forming it; it still takes millions of years to carve that out of the ground. People have spent years objectively studying rock formations around the world, and they have concluded that the earth is billions of years old. You have one poetic book to support your case. I have more than a hundred years of scientific evidence, experiment after experiment, all proving my case. How does creationism explain poodles? Those dogs obviously were not around at the beginning of the world, and in just a few thousand years, they have truly changed from their original form: wolves. You claim that fossil evidence fails to support evolution, but try to find a fossil of a poodle that was alive at the same time as the dinosaurs. Plus, whale fossils have consistently supported the theory of evolution.--[[User:Venfayth|Venfayth]] 17:21, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

If that be so, perhaps you might feel inclined to list some of the undeniable evidence proving that evolution is erroneos in all aspects it claims to explain. Regardless of your own personal feeling on the accuracy of either opinion, codes of conduct for debating scenarios place the burden of proof upon yourself at the present time.--[[User:Fpresjh|Fpresjh]] 09:27, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

==Self-discrediting of Conservapedia==

Well, at least the obvious tic tendencies of the Christian Right, as demonstrated by Conservapedia's paranoid locking out of anything that does not reflect its articles of faith, should put sensible, adult readers on their guard and warn them not to take anything it says too seriously! Thanks to this, I'm afraid, it is already pretty much self-discrediting - and is rapidly becoming a veritable conspiracy of ignorance into the bargain. --[[User:Petrus|Petrus]] 06:58, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

:So you believe that creationists are dangerous terrorists who are trying to take over the country by terror and force? Like I said before, Nero thought the same thing, and so he put many Christians to death. However, none of his assumptions were correct, Christians were not trying to take over Rome and they're not trying to subdue America either. Obviously you've been reading Chris Hedges new book on Christian m. Where is the evidence behind his claims? Hmmm? Where are our nuclear weapons, weather control devices, bombs, guns and so on? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:34, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
:And your nonsense about an "ignorance conspiracy" self-discredits you. Maybe Conservapedia does need more content, and perhaps it should show both sides of the issues, but what good do you think you're going to do by making all these absurd claims? If you talked reasonably with Aschlafly (and by reasonably I don't mean going "This whole website is nonsense. None of it is true. You're all a bunch of idiots."), maybe he might change his mind and semi-protect it. So why don't you post your comments on his talkpage. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:37, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

:: I'll briefly point out that Petrus made no claim that "creationists are dangerous terrorists who are trying to take over the country by terror and force". It isn't very civil or productive to associate with people extremist statements that they did not make. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 14:39, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

That is what can be interpreted. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 08:15, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

All i have to say about this argument is thank goodness for evolution. If not for this natural phenomenon we would all be identical in genotype to Noah and his wife (did she have a name?... I mean, she did all the work, right? Cooking up the dinosaurs and dodo birds for food.). If not for evolution we would all be condemned to a long and slow-living existence with life spans far too long to remain interesting.

:I have no idea what on earth you're talking about. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 08:15, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

yes, this is obvious.

:No it isn't. Nothing is obvious anymore. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:45, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Scorpionman finds himself alone and confused with his backward thoughts. There should be no patience for people like you. The sooner evolution naturally select out Scorpionman and other's who think like him the better off as a society we will be. He fixes selective and biased information to prove his narrow point of view and further proves he knows nothing but what he knows which the more he talks amounts to less and less. Conservapedia has given him a forum to vent his ignorant views and I feel many are seriously trying to educate him but he does not deserve to be educated. We should preserve this site for future generations to laugh and marvel at our ignorance and then use it to teach the young and impressionable before they get indoctrinated into religious dogma.

== transitional states ==

lots of folks i talk to seem to misnderstand what it means to have a fossil of a "transitional state"; the current (rather short) section on transitional states also reflects this misunderstanding.

i'd suggest modifying or appending the "transitional states" stub to reflect the idea that we DO have fossil evidence of things that can be considered transitional states, depending on your definition, and the problem is that most people tend to have an uninformed definition.

not that this proves evolution or anything, but this section of the current article is a misrepresentation/misunderstanding.

here's the research: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/evolution/PSCF12-97Miller.html

== Lack of 'Credible Transitional Forms'? ==

ever heard of Archaeopteryx? or Ambulocetus?

He's got you there, Scorpianman--[[User:Dezza91|Dezza91]] 03:37, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:No, he doesn't. Achaeopteryx was a bird. Ambulocetus seems to share a lot more in common with crocodiles than either of the others. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 08:10, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

This page (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html) lists all transitional fossils known through 1997 (they gotta update!), which is already quite a long list. The last thing on their list is their references (direct link to it: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2c.html#refs), which you can see cites sources such as "Science", "Nature", publications of the Smithsonian, Harvard University Press, various textbooks, other scholarly journals, and conference proceedings...clearly a wide array of support for the existence of MANY credible transitional fossils. Given this, I don't see how one can legitimately claim that there is a lack of credible evidence.

: They can't credibly claim a lack of evidence, but they CAN protect the article, and then fail to answer your replies about how there is evidence.--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 11:19, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::'''AUGH!''' (Fixed the [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_evolution&diff=prev&oldid=34928 overly long word]. If possible, avoid adding horizontal scroll bars to pages. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 14:51, 14 March 2007 (EDT)) [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 13:10, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Scorpionman, I do not understand why you choose to engage these mindless users, when they cannot respond in any form of intelligent conversation. It is a lose-lose situation when you are dealing with close-minded people such as them. As for a response to such "questions" they raise: We had to prevent vandalism and non-factual material from being posted on this page. There is no supported evidence that supports any of the proposed material. The article is protected; it will remain protected. Period. Deal with it. How's that for a response? --[[User:David R|<<-David R->>]] 13:16, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:Oh, sorry I didn't see your comment. I just wanted to make it clear to them why the page was protected and that it's not for censorship reasons, but nothing can really be made clear to them. I don't believe I saw Aschlafly's comment asking me to move to a different subject but I'll try to avoid this if I can. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 17:12, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::Tell me about it! Where are all your little friends, huh, Scorpionman? None of them here! They're afraid of the truth! Look, evolution is proven, duh! Why can't you get that through your thick skull? C'mon, just look at that list and see! There's no evidence for creation! A bunch of right-wing conspirators get together and start trying to abolish the truth here! It's ridiculous! And they keep on blocking the page so the truth can't be put there! Idiots! Why don't you just give up and conform to the truth? You'll be happier, healthier, and wiser. Come with us and find TRUE knowledge! [[User:Caveman|Caveman]] 13:04, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:::There is no objective proof of evolution. Just the fitting of facts to the theory. --[[User:TimSvendsen|TimSvendsen]] 13:12, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::I think I've heard that one before, and I seem to recognize it as an evolutionary argument, but I won't make that assumption yet. And once again, may I please direct you all who are unsatisfied with this article to the [http://www.creationwiki.org/General_theory_of_evolution one at CreationWiki]? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 13:17, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

== There's so much more that could be here. ==

Looking over the Evolution page, it seems rather barren. There's quite a bit more information that would be very useful to readers. I've gleaned quite a bit of this from various creationist sources, and they might help add even more information to the page. I would say that all of the following information is at least as academically viable and accurate as the information already present.

You should reference the popular Peppered Moth study, noting that the researchers glued dead moths in place to photograph them. Don't mention that this is a common practice in entymology; instead, present it as though it is some sort of scandal. Most readers won't research the issue further and discover that the practice of gluing dead insects is common when attempting to illustrate graphical features -- especially when comparing two different specimens that don't usually hold still in the wild -- and will instead assume that the photographers were engaged in deliberate deception.
Also, point out that the peppered moths don't normally rest on tree trunks. Don't mention, however, that they do rest on the undersides of tree branches, which are essentially the same colour as tree trunks. Also point out that the moths are only active at night, being nocturnal. Most readers won't realise that this means that the moths will be resting -- and thus more vulnerable -- during the day. Instead, try to imply that the moths aren't around at all during the day -- as if they cease to exist -- so that you can imply that colouring is of no consequence because they can't be seen. You can find a lot of these arguments in Ann Coulter's latest book.

You mention Piltdown Man, but you don't mention that it is reported that [http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=183 there were over 500 doctoral dissertations written on Piltdown Man]. I've tried to track down these dissertations, and I can't find a single one. It's quite likely that the claim is false, and that no actual dissertations exist at all, but you don't have to mention that. Just say that it is reported that there were 500 dissertations written and most readers won't bother researching and discovering that the "report" is inaccurate.

I'm somewhat disappointed that the page has no references of the social consequences of accepting the theory of evolution. The creator of Darwin's Deadly Legacy, who has a webpage [http://www.coralridge.org/darwin/ here], goes into detail of the social consequences of the theory of evolution. You can easily reference sources claiming that the theory of evolution is responsible for eugenics. Be sure that you don't mention that eugenics was practiced in societies that existed thousands of years before Darwin was born, just reference the instances of eugenics policies [http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v27/i2/hitler.asp endorsed post-Darwin]. Suggest that the theory of evolution implies a moral mandate to kill (or at least sterilize) the "weaker" races. Most people won't realise that such a claim is an appeal to a logical fallacy (appeal to consequence), and hopefully most of your readers won't understand that scientific theories (including the theory of evolution) don't actually dictate action or define morality and that the theory of evolution doesn't actually suggest that Jews, blacks or any other genetic group of homo sapiens is definitively "weaker" than another (because "weaker" is a relative term often dependent upon a myriad of interacting environmental conditions). Just say that Hitler determined that the Jews were weaker and hope that the readers will assume that it's a logical conclusion drawn from the theory of evolution and then imply that Hitler was following the "directives" of evolution. Don't actually use the word "directive"; evolution has no "directives", so you'll have to just let your readers incorrectly infer that it does using vague language. Try suggesting that the theory of evolution does not define acts of genocide as morally wrong. This is factually correct, and many readers won't stop and realize that the same is true of all scientific claims; after all, how many people would stop and realise that the Law of Gravity carries with it no moral compunction not to push people off of buildings? Saying that the theory of evolution suggests that genocide is a good thing would be lying, but saying only that the theory of evolution does not proscribe genocide is technically truthful, and can lead people to believe the same thing.

This can be helped further if you again suggest that the theory of evolution claims that God does not exist. Hopefully your readers won't actually study the theory to learn that such a claim is false. Mention that the theory of evolution does not involve God. Try to word it in such a way to give the impression that the theory actually denies the existence of God (but don't actually say it outright; the claim is false, but the goal is to give the impression that it is true without actually saying it) and that without God, there is no good or evil. Then suggest that if there is no good or evil, that destroying a few people for the betterment of humanity as a whole is a good thing. Hopefully most people won't see that you've directly contradicted yourself. Also, most people won't see that you've essentially admitted that you believe that Jews are in some way inferior to non-Jews (by capitulating that it would better humanity to off if not for killing being morally objectionable). Also, hopefully most people won't see that you've completely gotten off of the subject of the merits of evolution, and that you're trying to disprove an event by saying that you find the (implied) consequences of that event being true as morally repugnant, as if reality depends upon what you find acceptable.

I hope that my suggestions are useful to you. I think that the research that I have referenced is of the same intellectual integrity and honesty as the current evolution page here. With a little work, this page can become a great resource for those looking for the creationist position, a repository on the common creationist objections to the theory of evolution, with all of the research and honesty one would expect from a professional creationist outfit.

I'll do some more digging to find some more claims of equal intellectual merit and accuracy.

[[User:Dimensio|Dimensio]] 11:07, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:I think we should just kill off all the creationists. They keep on opening up their big traps and squelching the truth. Can't we do that, huh, huh? [[User:Caveman|Caveman]] 13:07, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::I do not believe that your response, which suggests an inappropriate act of violence, has any relevance to my posting. I am curious as to why your only contribution to my suggestion is a non-sequitur. [[User:Dimensio|Dimensio]] 14:55, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:::I would not attempt to understand anything Caveman writes. He is incompetent in a field of intelligent conversation. His response only goes to validate protecting this page. --[[User:David R|<<-David R->>]] 15:01, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

Duh, I even can't remembur mi own pasword! I had to make new one! Whaddya mean I'm untilligent in meningful convursashun! I shure am! I talk good! But I still think that we should kill off all creationists. If I had my club first I'd take out David R, then Aschlafly, then Jimbo Wales, then George Bush, then Emperor Palpatine, then Eragon, then Johnny Cash, then Scorpionman! huh huh! [[User:CroMagnonMan|CroMagnonMan]] 17:04, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:I belive David was right about you, CroMagnonMan/Caveman. Come on, half the people you listed aren't known for being creationists! And your threats are of no consequence to anyone here, so stop being immature. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 17:14, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

==Creationism popular among the less intelligent==
According to http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm, a source cited on [Examples of Bias in Wikpedia](see entry 22, source 24), those without a high school diploma are more than twice as likely to believe in creationism than their college-graduate counterparts, (65% vs. 25%). Also, those living in or near poverty (Under $20,000) are almost twice as likely (59% vs. 29%) to believe in creationism than their well-off counterparts (Over $50,000). Of course drawing conclusions based on these facts would not be appropriate, that is far too Wikipedia-ish, I do think they have place in the article. They do, after all, come from a website that creators of Conservapedia have used often, proving its credence. --[[User:BushHugger|BushHugger]] 13:37, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::You know what? Shut up. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:43, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
::I'll bet that the reason is because most of the major universities in the US are liberal, and therefore college grads from these universities of course believe what they are taught there. Now doesn't that make sense? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 14:44, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::: Your second response, after your initial request for the previous individual to "shut up", appears to be a non-sequitur. What has liberalism, whether present in "most of the major universities in the US", to do with the theory of evolution? [[User:Dimensio|Dimensio]] 14:56, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::::Scorpionman, when you respond to such users, you are only hurting yourself. I think I told you once to refuse to respond. Aschlafly has already told you to move onto another subject. What is the worst these users can do on a talk page? Also, please refrain from descending to their level of conversation. --[[User:David R|<<-David R->>]] 15:04, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:::::David, is there any reason why you remove the word " t" from Scorpionman's edits all the time? I've noticed it at least twice within the past few edits. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 15:18, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
:::::I just noticed that the same apparently happened a week ago on his Talk page, together with a warning about offensive language. How often will he be "warned" before action is taken? And will his overall behavior here and on other people's talk pages factor into this? --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 15:56, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:The offensive language he was talking about, Sid, was the word "crap". I can't believe that you think I should be blocked for arguing. I mean, if I should be blocked for arguing then so should you because that's pretty much all you do on this site. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 16:59, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
::I wouldn't want you banned for arguing, but you're a complete troll who does little more than namecalling and "Well, duh!" arguments that have VERY little value as an argument. And I still want to know why David acts repeatedly alters yours posts to edit out the word m/ t. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 17:51, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:You know, on Wikipedia you would have been blocked for calling me a "complete troll". It would be like me calling you a complete idiot. And please explain ''why'' you think I'm a complete troll. I don't recall ever saying "well duh" anywhere. And haven't you been saying that all along? [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 21:55, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

I can explain that: my comp filters out potentially offensive(not obscenely offensive words for some odd reason). In the case of " t", I do not know why it is deleting it. I am not doing it on purpose. --[[User:David R|<<-David R->>]] 18:08, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
:Sid should be blocked for name-calling. Calling me a "complete troll" counts as name-calling, and that's not acceptable on any Wiki. [[User:Scorpionman|Scorpionman]] 22:01, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
:...don't you think that your browser/computer is ''slightly'' disruptive for this project? At least promise me to never edit [[Fascism]] then... --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 18:55, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
::Grunt, snort, grunt grunt snort, beeeelllch, buuurrrp, grunt, snort, ptbhtbhtbhtbhtbhtbhtbhthb, faaaarrrtt, smack, smack, chew, spray, uuurrrp [[User:CroMagnonMan|CroMagnonMan]] 21:57, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

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2008-03-16T02:54:32Z

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==Banners==
alright, howabout a banner that displays the Con-Commandments so that your editors will start following them instead of bending them to fit an agenda? The point of an encyclopedia is to inform, not sway people to a certain point of view. Even if that is the case, you have rules right on your main page illustrating how an article should be presented, I felt that these articles(as well as others I was going to plaster) didn't fit the bill or follow the rules.[[User:Acronym|Acronym]]

: You're the first person in a year and about 370,000 page edits to post such a ridiculous banner. So, no, that does not require "rule". Moreover, the banner was wrong: the [[liberals]] entry is accurate and you have not identified any error in it. We don't allow censorship, or downplaying, educational truth here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:58, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Wow, I am the first in so long, must mean I am like the messiah or something then aye!? Also, if you wanted educational truth on these pages, why have a disclaimer explaining that you aren't liable for "incorrect information"?
I have an issue with this blanket statement:"A Liberal is a believer in many of the following political positions:"
soooo...
Rudi Giulliani is a liberal, because he believes in: taxpayer funded abortion?

In that track you could label a "conservative" as one who believes in the opposite of everything a liberal does...but what of those who believe in a combination of these 'tenets'? A distinction between social liberal, economic liberal, and any others seems appropriate. I keep thinking of something I keep reading from sysops: "keep an open mind" oh well.

[[User:Acronym|Acronym]]

: Right, [[Rudy Giuliani]] is a [[liberal]]. There are [[liberal]] [[Republicans]], you know. By the way, you should sign your name using the signature button above the edit space. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:51, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Okay, well, what about his stance on the death penalty and immigration-following "typical" conservative train...is he NOW a conservative? My point is you can't put everything into two categories. --A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 16:08, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: You could say the same thing about science: "you can't put everything into __ categories." But categories are useful in science, and also in politics, and just because there may be exceptions that should not prevent characterizing and categorizing political positions. If one wants to go the know-nothing route with respect to describing the liberal ideology, then Wikipedia is a better place for that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)

:: Shall I now accuse you with using "[[liberal style]]"?--Taking things out of context AND misquoting me! I said TWO (2) II categories were not accurate representations of things. I do not disagree with categories, just under-representations of them.--A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 21:35, 20 January 2008 (EST)

::: So, we're focusing on the two biggest categories. What ... should be have separate category for people who think that secession should be allowed or want animals declared to be human? It makes sense to focus on the two biggest and most important categories.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:43, 20 January 2008 (EST)

You are straying a little far, slow down. I am just thinking instead of focusing, like you said, on the two "biggest" categories, realise that there are parts in these categories that are very important. Someone who wants privatized social security but is against the death penalty cannot be considered "conservative" or "liberal", but both economically conservative and socially liberal.
Also: What would make secession illegal? Animals aren't humans, but as living creatures, shouldn't they be respected as humans are? And, just because things are BIG, relatively, doesn't mean they are IMPORTANT.--A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 21:58, 20 January 2008 (EST)
: Animals are part of God's creation, and we are supposed to look after God's creation, not abuse it, but we shouldn't treat animals as humans, because God put humans above animals, giving humans "dominion" over the animals. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:46, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Please don't get in on this conversation... thank-you --A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 17:08, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Request for night editing rights==
Can I please have night editing rights? I live in the UK, so the nighttime lockdown presently means that I can't edit in the morning, which is frustrating. (If you'd prefer that I get more experience and build up a longer track record before you can trust me with the rights, then that's OK; I wasn't sure if there was a required minimum number of edits or anything like that.) [[User:Walton One|Walton One]] 13:52, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: We'll take a look at your edits. Thanks for contributing and asking.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:56, 20 January 2008 (EST)

I'd also like to ask for night edit rights, but like Walton I'm not sure if there's a minimum edit requirement. --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 20:37, 20 January 2008 (EST)

==Unlock==
Hey andy - can you unlock [[Template:Who says]] for me? I just want to clean it up a little with breaks and such. Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:34, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, Iduan. And congratulations on a great contest ... that you initiated!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:53, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Done, and thank you :D! Yeah I'm really glad it turned out as nicely as it did ... only a few minor problems that are easily resolvable. I mean obviously the point system is far from perfect - I'm sure there are many critiques you and other editors have, but I think it's a start. And congratulations on scoring an unbelievable 1426 points!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:02, 20 January 2008 (EST)

:: It is a fantastic start. Your rule system was a big improvement, and we'll improve even further next time. I learned an enormous amount from my editing during the contest. Thank you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)

==contest==
Hi mr. Schlafly, when's the next contest? I might consider joining.
--[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 09:09, 21 January 2008 (EST)

: That would be super, Ben. It would be great if you could join our team. We're planning a "rematch" with the other team and we'll beat 'em next time. In the meantime we'll figure out how to improve the rules. Once we settle on the new rules, hopefully in a week or so, we can rechallenge them. Your suggestions on rule changes are welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:14, 21 January 2008 (EST)

I was actually hoping to join the other team, but I suppose i'll be whichever team needs another guy. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 09:19, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:At the beggining of each contest, the captains of the teams choose the team's players. You get put on whichever side chooses you!! :P --[[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 09:22, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Ben, it would be great to have you on our team in the next contest! Steve joined our team in the last contest, and did very well. It's good to see you editing again! ~ [[User:SharonS|Sharon]][[User talk:SharonS|Talk]] 10:19, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Hey your entry [[D.C. v. Heller]] was really fascinating Mr. Schlafly. when do you think that case will be resolved? --[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 13:44, 21 January 2008 (EST)

: Steve, it is a fascinating case. A decision will probably be issued in June. I'll be adding to our entry further, and you should feel free to do likewise!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:53, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::That is a really exciting case, and a well-written article, too, thanks for it! Andy, I saw the City of New York on the ''amicus'' list, and think I know why they're filing for the gun control side: don't they have a case pending against gun manufacturers right now? Do we have an article about that? And, I'm gearing up for Contest4.5 (?). Do we think it'll happen?-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 20:11, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::: We're going to have a rematch and crush Eagle Team next time!!! I'm already plotting how to do it ... and how to "reform" the point system!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:20, 21 January 2008 (EST)
:::: That thar's fightin' talk where I come from :D [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:24, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::::: Ha ha ha. We were just warming up, seeing what your team can do. The rematch will be the real one that counts!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:00, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::::::I second Andy - it was all strategy - genius strategy if I do say to myself :D --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:21, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Take a look at my recent edit history. I have been unable to get on due to night time edits, but I think my contributions still continue to be useful to conservapedia. I'll join the contest too if I get night time edit privileges first. Thanks. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 23:04, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:Thanks. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 11:05, 22 January 2008 (EST)

::Oh, wait, I did not get it. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 22:41, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Deletion of liberals on Wikipedia who want their entries deleted ==

The more I look into this the more I see a pattern. Wikipedia willingly deletes articles about liberals when the subjects don't want a biography but refuses to do the same when conservatives or neoconservatives want their articles deleted. May I send you an email detailing all the cases? [[User:SkipJohnson|SkipJohnson]] 16:35, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Just FYI==
Hey Andy, to avoid confusion, I thought I'd just make you aware that at the same time you were reverted the Nelson mandela edit of [[User:WindarLarches]], I was also, I, before you had made the warning, had blocked the user per what I thought was inexcusable vandalism. Obviously though, after I saw that you had warned him and decided to give him another chance, I retracted the block--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:30, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:Hey - could you give me an ok on everything I'm doing, I've started this relatively big project where I'm putting [[Template:University]] on every single university page. Examples include [[Harvard University]], [[Columbia University]], [[University of Connecticut]], and [[University of Southern California]]. If you could take a look at them and just give me an ok to keep going, I'd appreciate it.
:Oh, and one other thing: I'm also doing relatively boring start articles if we don't already have an article on an university. They require a bit of research, and thus every article has unique numbers, but beyond that the formula is really generic, as you can see in [[University of Maryland]] and [[University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill]] - is it ok that I'm creating those types of articles (I've written 6 total)? Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:54, 22 January 2008 (EST)

:: We're weak in the category of universities and your work is a godsend, Iduan!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:57, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:::Oh wow, thank you - I'll definitely try to keep it up then! Thanks again,--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:15, 22 January 2008 (EST)
Well after adding that template to 86 articles and creating 21 college articles, I'm going to move on from this - lol I'm sick of college!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== rights ==

Hi Andy, I'd like to request night edit rights. I'm not sure how many edits are needed though... --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 20:48, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:Hi - are you on? --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 01:38, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== Major vandal attack under way! ==

I think I have it under control, but I may not...-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 21:03, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Vaccine Injury Compensation Program ==

What do you think of [[Vaccine Injury Compensation Program]]? SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 22:47, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Time==
Hey Andy, can you give me a clock on how much time before editing is turned off, I was going to do some more templates, but they require at least 8 minutes each, and I don't want to do one if I'll get stuck lol, thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]]
:Hey, Andy, are you going to leave night on again tonight? If not, could you give me a time (same reason as above)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:19, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== the 25 Worst Court Decisions ==

I promoted [[Wickard v. Filburn]] to the second worst Supreme court decision, and explained why on the talk page. See [[Essay: the 25 Worst Court Decisions]]. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 00:18, 23 January 2008 (EST)

: Good effort, though I'm sure it ranks ''so'' high.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:54, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:That's worse than the Dred Scott decision which gave the court's approval for slavery? What about Plessy v Ferguson and the separate but equal doctrine? It isn't even on the list. What about the Sacco-Vanzetti conviction where two men where executed essentially on anti-immigrant sentiment? [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 21:57, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:: Your lack of open-mindedness is causing you to misread clear statements, such as "rulings overturned by the court system are not included." [[Essay: the 25 Worst Court Decisions]]. Help yourself: open your mind when you read here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:07, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:::So, if Roe v Wade were overturned tomorrow it would cease to be the worst court decision? Plessy v Ferguson was stare decisis for close to 60 years. It had a huge effect on jurisprudence and was a decision with no prior precedent built purely on racism. Thanks for recommending I remain open minded, I'll have to remember that when discussing disease prevention, genocide, or the shaking of children to death. It seems I'm closed minded in those areas. [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 22:23, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Vote ==

Click on the link to vote in my poll. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 23:05, 23 January 2008 (EST)
==Templates==
Andy, do we have two templates that are for the same thing? [[Template:PM]], [[Template:Prime Minister]]. If this is wrong, would you mind unlocking the articles so I could work on fixing it (this might take me a while)? Thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, nm, looks like you've gone to bed. Maybe tomorrow--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:33, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:: Still here. Unlocked as requested. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:53, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Ahh, thank you! I'm actually done and I haven't even made any edits - I know that sounds strange, but I was searching through the code and trying to figure out ways to combine them through the code alone, but I realized after doing a few that it would probably be faster, and less of a drain on the server, if I just went through every page [[Template:PM]] linked to and replaced it. Thanks so much anyways, as I wouldn't have been able to figure that out without testing a few, once I'm done, I'll put a note here and if you want, you can delete [[Template:PM]] (which is the one I'm replacing since it's obviously the lesser of two templates - see [[Tony Blair]] and [[Edmund Barton]]) --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:59, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, it's going to take me a long while to do all of those, in fact if you could somehow post a request of users to help switch Template:PM to Template:Prime Minister -I'd greatly appreciate it, as it gets very confusing with all the different parameters, but I'll try some more tomorrow, I'm off to bed early tonight, good night, I'll see you tomorrow--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 01:13, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Firefox==
I'm using a free trial version, and it keeps telling me information Im sending out is not encrypted. I don't know much about ssl or tsl or "secure sites", and the firefox help menu doesn't answer all my questions. {{unsigned|StevenM}}

: Just answer no to the encryption warnings, and permanently turn off those messages with that answer option if they bother you. No need to encrypt postings to a publicly available site!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:28, 24 January 2008 (EST)

::That's... misleading. The thing is that as far as I know, Conservapedia ''does not support'' encryption (and neither does Wikipedia, I assume). However, this doesn't mean that there is "no need" for it. Suppose somebody intercepted your Conservapedia password as you send it without encryption and then silently hijacks your account (and let's hope that you didn't use that password anywhere else). Encryption could have prevented that. Likewise, imagine somebody intercepting private Conservapedia mails.
::I freely admit that it's not ''likely'', but it's foolish to say that you don't ''need'' encryption when dealing with sites you send passwords and other personal information to.
::Yes, turn off the message, but keep in mind that there is a non-zero risk whenever you're working without encryption and that there can be significant damage if somebody exploits this. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 12:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:::Thanks Mr. Schlafly, I dont think theres much danger even if someone did steal my account. --[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 13:17, 24 January 2008 (EST)
::::Free trial version of Firefox? I don't think there is such a thing. Firefox is free, full-stop. Encryption is site dependent. As CP doesn't have encryption, then Firefox is correctly informing you that you are sending out information that is unencrypted. When you get the message there should be a dialogue box that has a check mark that you should select if you don't want to see the message again. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 13:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)

::::: Thanks for the tips.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:02, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Block Protocol ==

Hey Andy, first of all apologies that I haven't been around lately; I've been a little sick but getting better. But I had a question about using my newly minted block ability (thank you again!). I've blocked obvious vandals for infinite, obviously, but I've been using it in line with my own thoughts as to the best option, for non-obvious vandalism, and I wanted to get your opinion to make sure it's in line with site protocol. For example, where I see users being insulting, I tend to give them a short block to cool down, and a very short block (30 minutes) to people who are obviously "edit-warring" or pushing their liberal views without discussion. Is that appropriate? Your guidance is appreciated!-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 21:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)

: Short blocks make sense for inappropriate edits that do not rise to the level hopeless vandalism. Often I try to warn first. We don't block purely for ideology unless it leads to [[rule]] violations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:48, 24 January 2008 (EST)

: See [[Conservapedia:User rights#Blocking rights|here]]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:03, 25 January 2008 (EST)
==Article==
Hey Andy - can you unprotect [[Genocide]] temporarily? I'd like to add a source where there is a fact tag, and fix a few format things. Thanks so much!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:52, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:And can you also delete [[Phillips_Academy]]?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:43, 25 January 2008 (EST)

: Unprotected [[Genocide]] for you. Found nothing at [[Phillips_Academy]]. Perhaps someone beat me to it!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:47, 25 January 2008 (EST)
::: Yep, Joaquín Martínez beat you to it. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 05:23, 26 January 2008 (EST)
::I'm done - thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:53, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:::<s>Even more -there's a lot here - can you delete everything in [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/Nounwri this?] Just so you know I put a delete tag on most of them just to get rid of the vandalism (I'm also going to tell other sysops since there's so much). Thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:27, 26 January 2008 (EST)</s>
:::::Dan and Joaquin got them--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Sigh - I have another one - can you delete [[Actor / Actress]] - there's already [[actor]] - which has more content anyway--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:22, 26 January 2008 (EST)

: Done as requested. Thanks. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:35, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Thanks - and now I have a question. Why are we keeping Template:AboutC and [[Template:Tfa]] around? I was looking through [[Help:Templates]] and I noticed that we still had that.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:11, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:Oh and one more thing - since this category was only recently re-opened, it's kind of going without attention - so would you mind taking a look at [[:Category:Move requests]] (as there are more or less a dozen in there now) and could you also try to get the word out to sysops to check on that category? Thanks so much Andy!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
::I just deleted the templates, when I replaced them a while ago, I must have forgotten to delete the old ones. [[User:Jallen|Jallen]] 07:06, 27 January 2008 (EST)
===Rights===
Andy, given my Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan|recent nomination)) (with full support barring a "no vote"), I want to again ask for sysop rights. I'm not going to spend time again going over all the reasons I deserve them - because that'd be a waste of your time, and I've already demonstrated why I need them; but I would like to ask you to just look at my contributions. I've spent a great amount of time improving Conservapedia and the only reason I want sysop rights is so I can improve it even more. I'd like an answer tonight, but all I need is a simple "yes" or "no" answer - no explanation required - through email or my talk page, and while I'd rather have a yes - and while I can assure you that if you give me a yes I will not disappoint you at all, I'd would be much happier with a "no" over no response at all. Thank you so much, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:Since [[User:CollegeRepublican|CollegeRepublican]] has not been [[Special:Contributions/CollegeRepublican|productive]] for over a month perhaps his rights could be given to [[User:Iduan|Iduan]]. You did say on 22 December with regards to [[User:CollegeRepublican|CollegeRepublican]] that "the rights will be revoked if not used productively", although perhaps just over a month is too short a time in which to judge productivity. On the other hand one must be cautions about granting power to those who actively seek it.[[User:Iduan|Iduan]] may simply abuse such privileges in order to get his way when it comes to edits. He may also be an agent from the other place doing a lot of minor edits in order to gain more rights so that he will then be in a better position to indulge in mischief. [[User:SimonJones|SimonJones]] 11:23, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:: SimonJones, you haven't yet contributed to a substantive entry. You've been nothing but talk, talk, talk here, something [[liberals]] love to do. How about contributing something of substance first, and then maybe afterwards you'll be in a position to give advice?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 27 January 2008 (EST)

== Part of [[Swansea]] article is copied from [[Wikipedia]] ==

I have expanded the above article tonight and noticed that [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Swansea&diff=prev&oldid=239211 this addition] made on 18th July 2007 is word-for-word the same as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swansea&oldid=145045189 the passage in the Wikipedia article at the time]. A dubious statement has since been removed from the end of the passage by [[User:DanH]].

It is important information regarding Swansea and the history of Christianity in the [[United Kingdom]] and I do not feel able to check and re-write it accurately. Thanks, [[User:Barclay|Barclay]] 19:30, 27 January 2008 (EST)

==Hillary's Hollywood Values?==

Hi. I'm posting this here because it's appropriateness for the front page (even the talk page) is, uhm, ''problematic'', but I thought it might be of interest. Hillary Clinton has [http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/01/golden_earring_heralds_hillary.php chosen] for her campaign a song called "When the Lady Smiles", by the group Golden Earring. Problem is, the video for the song depicts the rape of two women, one of them a nun. Oops. The video was graphic enough that it was banned by MTV. I won't post a link here to the video, but it's out there if you Google it.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 10:29, 29 January 2008 (EST)

:I watched the beginning of it on YouTube. The band's lead singer portrays a commuter on a subway. He ogles a girl's leg. Then he fantasizes that the middle-aged nun has a younger woman's face. I stopped watching when he began assaulting her.

:But is this a ''bona fide'' [[campaign song]], or was it merely one of half dozen pop songs played (audio only) by local organizers of a small event?

:Let's not scrape the bottom of barrel looking for dirt - that's so petty, and not worth the effort anyway. How about an article comparing the candidates' stands on major issues of interest to conservatives? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:55, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== [[Carbon dating]] ==

Andy, have you had time to look at that source yet? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:55, 29 January 2008 (EST)

: Sorry, I was distracted. Will do today. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:03, 29 January 2008 (EST)

::Have you had time yet? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:26, 31 January 2008 (EST)

== Email ==

Still waiting for a reply. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 21:16, 30 January 2008 (EST)
==Contest==
Hey Mr. ASchlafly - can you update the # @ [[Conservapedia:Sysop_contest]]? I just realized it was outdated. Oh, and btw, this site is awesome - I just came here from CP - and it's just awesome in comparison (sorry a lot of my edits have been to the contest stuff - it's only because i think the system is so cool, but I plan to work on normal stuff soon)[[User:AriHatcher|AriHatcher]] 23:32, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:Wow - 25,000? You must not like any of the current candidates at all lol, thx for the update[[User:AriHatcher|AriHatcher]] 00:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)
==Contest(5?)==
Alright, I'm going to start cleaning up the scoring method based on issues last time, and I was wondering - are we going to start the next contest soon? Should I set it up? Because frankly, all that has to be done to the scoring is some fine tuning, then the captains will be the two people that scored the highest (LearnTogether and yourself), and then we can just find a judge. You and LT (assuming you both accept) could presumably start the draft tomorrow (we don't really need a list of interested users again - I'll put it up, but certainly we should allow captains to draft users that are not necessarily in that list). I know this all seems kind of fast, but trust me, I'm confident I can set up everything by then. My schedule is completely free today - and really all I have to do is:
#Fine tune the scoring
#Get the word out (easy - I'll put a note on each user's talk page and I'll put a note on the main page, and I'll recommend it as a breaking news story)
#Copy the most wanted list again (wow have you seen the one from last time? We got a lot done!) (I can do this tomorrow during the draft, as we only need it by the time the contest starts - which would be Monday).
So I mean, I can do all the dirty work - and all you and LT would have to do is pick on Sunday, and we'll start the contest on Monday. What do you think? (P.S. - I'm going to start refining the rules now, but that doesn't mean that I'm starting the next contest without your approval - just so you know)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 13:49, 2 February 2008 (EST)

: Great suggestion, Iduan. I'm not sure we can start it quite that quickly, and would like to fine-tune the rules a bit first. Let's discuss how the rules can be improved first.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:44, 2 February 2008 (EST)
::Ok, fair enough, and you're probably right - today and tomorrow would be the only day to discuss the rule changes - and that might not be enough, maybe Wednesday would be a better start time ... but nonetheless, just so you know, I'm going to go ahead and create the contest 5 page (like I created the contest 4 page last time - just so people can discuss the rules)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:51, 2 February 2008 (EST)
Alright - have a look - [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] - the changes I made are all based on issues we had in the last one or the contest before that, but obviously feel free to mark up whatever you like--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:56, 2 February 2008 (EST)
==Edit==
Andy, typically this doesn't happen to me - but I can't get the phrasing right to what I [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&curid=3943&diff=383983&oldid=383965 added to the George W. Bush article]. Given that it's such an important article, would you mind taking a look and seeing if you can improve it? Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 12:59, 3 February 2008 (EST)
:Thanks Andy - the consistently/persistently thing and the addition of the liberal bias link makes that a lot better ... mind at ease :D. (I'm not even going to comment on the fact that I spelled do due - because that might be the most embarrassing edit ever)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 14:21, 3 February 2008 (EST)

:: Iduan, can you send me an email offline?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:29, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== Image ==

Hi -

At WP there's a discussion over [http://www.conservapedia.com/Image:ASchlafly.JPG this image]; we're wondering whether, when you say that you 'release the rights to it', do you mean that you have put it in the public domain, or GDFL, or some other system? Thanks. --[[User:JOwen|JOwen]]

: Wikipedia can use it without restriction, as is Conservapedia's general approach to copyright issues. Too bad Wikipedia doesn't adopt the same unrestrictive policy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:57, 4 February 2008 (EST)

::Licensing arrangements provide more of an incentive for collaboration than merely putting something into the public domain.

::Wikipedia's approach to "free licensing" of text derives from the [[Free Software Foundation]]'s philosophy of mutual sharing. First applied to computer software, the [[GPL]] made it possible for developers to get "credit" (praise, appreciation, bullet points in their resume, etc.) for their donated work. It also made it impossible for anyone to create a [[derived work]] which they release without sharing.

::This turns out to have been a great incentive for computer programmers to collaborate on all sorts of projects, large and small. There's even been a free alternative to the [[Microsoft Windows]] operating system developed - properly called [[GNU]] ("Gnu's Not Unix") but more often called "Linux" (see [[Linus Torvalds]].

::The amount of [[free software]] out their is huge, and much of it is '''significantly better''' than any commercial alternative. Some of it is public domain, but quite a bit of it is "free licensed" under [[GPL]]. Every bit of software that makes Conservapedia possible - the GNU/Linux operating system which your server runs, the MySQL database which holds all the article versions, the MediaWiki software used to enter and display articles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 11:38, 12 February 2008 (EST)

::: Ed, the system you describe works well for software development, but not for encyclopedias or other documents. I don't know why Wikipedia thought that the exact same cumbersome system needed for maintaining and improving free software would make sense for a mere 1000-word educational entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:34, 12 February 2008 (EST)

==contest point system==
Andy - I wanted to make sure you knew about this change since you had already looked at the rules system before I made it - and I don't want you to feel like I'm blind-sighting you. BrianCo brought up the fact that many users were not organizing their points well, and it was causing problems for both himself and, presumably, the judge. So, I added the same very basic point layout I reccomended in Contest4, however this time we're also saying that any user that does not use this or a similar method will have 20 points taken off their score. I feel like this warning will also compel the team captains to keep their players in line - and it'll make the judges' work a lot easier.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:33, 4 February 2008 (EST)
===timing===
Uhhh - remember when I said I could try and set up the contest in one day? Thanks for '''not''' holding me to that - because even now we're not that near to being ready (especially since Learn Together - a captain, hasn't shown up for a while ...), although it's too bad - I have like a thousand ideas for articles that I don't want to write next so I can get big points in the contest :) --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)
===Unprotect Request===
Hey Andy - can you unprotect [[Template:Progress]] for a while? I'd like to standardize its look (this might take some time - but I should be able to quickly revert any vandalism that might happen while I'm working)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:52, 4 February 2008 (EST)
:Thank you! I didn't do the best color scheme possible - but it has the look :D --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:04, 5 February 2008 (EST)
===Email===
Just to let you know I will usually never do this, however I just sent you an email with private information in it - and if you could respond just to confirm you got it I'd appreciate it.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:13, 5 February 2008 (EST)

== moccasin - small request of not much importance :p ==

hi Andy, I created some pages earlier today, among them was [[mocassin]]. Since then, I discovered that while "mocassin" is an accepted alternate spelling, the more common spelling is "moccasin". (with 2 c's, one s). Could you please do me the favor of having a sysop either change the name of the page, or make a "redirect" page (I don't know how to do this yet) to "moccasin"? (or if it's ok, leave as is) I'm sorry for the confusion. Thank you very much for the assistance. [[User:Taj|Taj]] 00:05, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:Done. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:11, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:: Much thanks! :) Thanks to Geo for helping too, you guys are fast! [[User:Taj|Taj]] 00:13, 8 February 2008 (EST)
==Time==
Hey Andy - I think there's only one more issue that needs to be solved on [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] (whether or not breaking news edits should count) - so why don't we assume that the captains will draft tomorrow? (As of today, the captains would be you and Learn Together - however I'm not sure whether Learn Together is here or not - if it ends up that he's not here we can always just go down to the next highest scorer - Fox, thoughts?)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:12, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:Alright ... maybe next Saturday then.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:51, 9 February 2008 (EST)
==Email==
Andy, just so you know, I just sent an important email to you--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:17, 12 February 2008 (EST)
:P.S. should I move forward with the contest?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 08:32, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Question==
Andrew, I was wondering how you would substantiate the claim that the American public is twice as conservative as it is liberal after the recent primaries? These seem to indicate that the American public is at least twice as liberal as it is conservative. User: Jeffjeff. 23:09, 12 February 2008.

: The most liberal candidates on both sides were crushed by huge margins: Edwards on the Democratic side, and Giuliani on the Republican side. McCain is more conservative than most of the Republican frontrunners, though conservatives still have valid concerns. Obama and Clinton seem indistinguishable ideologically. Today Clinton was calling for universal health care, while Obama was not being as liberal. That contest seems to have devolved into a debate over race rather than ideology.

: If you need convincing about how conservative the American public is, take a look at our headline today about gun rights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:06, 13 February 2008 (EST)

== Technical problems ==

Mr. Schlafly there still appears to be something wrong with the site. There is a funny message in the top left-hand corner and fonts are very large. Also the main page is now incredibly wide. [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 08:49, 13 February 2008 (EST)
:I see that too - if it helps the message in the top left is: #$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit']=false; ?> [[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 08:57, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:: No problem with the site from my browser. There is a small error message in the top left-hand corner which will be fixed. It doesn't interfere with anything.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:01, 13 February 2008 (EST)

I must say I am having the same issue. I am using IE7 and the fonts and size of the windows are all different. When I am editing a page the text returns to seminormal but it is still very different than from 3 days ago.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:11, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::The site is quite normal for me! :P [[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 10:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Still on hiatus==
Andy, only have a minute to stop by. Still on hiatus. going through a massive reorganization of a business I had to retake control of. May have a few hours in the next month or two, hopefully.

God bless, and I'll have a mountain to catch up when I get back. RobSmith

: Thanks, Rob. We miss you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Agreed - we can't wait for you to return Rob!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:46, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==In the news==
I thought about putting this on the Main page but wanted to run it by you first. I think this site would be valuable to our Conservapedia editors. [http://felonspy.com/index.html FelonSpy.com - Search for violent criminals in your neighborhood] It's a free search so I don't believe it's advertising. You can either reply or post it yourself. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 20:25, 13 February 2008 (EST)

: Interesting, but let's pass on that, for several reasons. That site may install cookies or spyware on visitor's computers. But even if it doesn't, not all felons are violent or still dangerous. In fact, I think most felons are not dangerous at all. In general perhaps people should be less scared of their neighbors, not more so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:: Interesting site. Not sure that it is entirely serious. Did you notice their disclaimer: "Apparently we care more about your well being than your own politicians and their stupid laws do, but that probably doesn't come as too much of a surprise to you. Give money to anarchy societies anonymously, it's the only way to protect yourself". And their link to this site: [link deleted] I might just bookmark that. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:06, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::: Oops. I hope I didn't just spoil a joke you were playing on Mr. Schlafly. If so, sorry. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:14, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::::HMayo, I wasn't joking and I don't appreciate your accusation.
::::Andy, I created this page [[FelonSpy]] to warn our editors of their [[deceit]]. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 11:09, 14 February 2008 (EST)

:::: You're clueless, HMayo. See if you can contribute something substantive. At the rate you're going, you'll be blocked for inadequate substance.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:18, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::::: Yes... clearly I am the clueless one here. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:26, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Actually Andy - at first I thought the site was serious - I mean there was no indication it was a joke, and I even tried looking up my street (there were two "criminals" - surprisingly neither of which I knew). However after seeing HMayo's comment and checking again, I noticed that everything was different than the first time I looked it up - all of the names and places had changed. Now I'm not saying Crocoite knew about his in any way - and HMayo it's obviously inappropriate to take the accusatory tone you did, but, just for everyone's information, I do believe the site is fake.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:27, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:Of course it's a fake. That's obvious from a first glance. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 04:48, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Ann Coulter

2008-03-16T02:48:48Z

DHayes: Undo revision 406599 by Special:Contributions/Chrishanson (User talk:Chrishanson)

{{merge from|Coulter on Hillary and McCain}}
[[Image:Coulter2006.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Coulter on the ''Tonight Show with Jay Leno''.]]
'''Ann Hart Coulter''' (b. 1961) is an [[attorney]], legal affairs correspondent, and social commentator. She has written five bestselling books on the topic of the faults of being [[liberal]]. U.S. Federal Judge [[Richard Posner]] called her one of America's top public intellectuals. <ref>[http://home.uchicago.edu/~rposner/publicintellect.htm] "Data for tables in Chapter 5 of Richard A. Posner, Public Intellectuals: A Study of Decline" where Posner talks about the data he used for his book ''Public Intellectuals: A Study of Decline''.</ref> <ref>[http://home.uchicago.edu/~rposner/TABLE%20II.pdf] Table II, which is Posner's data for 607 public intellectuals. A PDF search of "Coulter" will show she is on Posner's list.</ref>

Coulter has enjoyed a popular following for her critique of liberalism, her outspokenness against all those who wish to hurt the [[United States of America|United States]], and her strong defense of family values against [[abortion]] and [[same-sex marriage]].

Coulter is a high profile female [[conservative]], in line with [[Phyllis Schlafly]] and [[Condoleezza Rice]]. Her books and strong speaking style have endeared her to fans and infuriated opponents.

As a [[Christian]], Coulter attributes to the [[Judeo-Christian]] tradition the view that [[human being]]s are utterly and distinctly apart from other species.

Being an unabashedly conservative pundit, Coulter's social commentaries often draw the ire of [[liberal]]s. Her comments are frequently controversial and sometimes considered offensive. <ref>She called Democratic women "no-bra needing, sandal-wearing, hirsute, somewhat fragrant [[hippie]] chick pie wagons". [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030501610_2.html (Washington Post)]</ref><ref>At a CPAC conference, Coulter joked, "I was going to have a few comments about John Edwards but you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot.'" [http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Coulter_Faggot_not_offensive_to_gay_0306.html]</ref>

Coulter recently made headlines by endorsing [[Hillary Clinton]] instead of [[John McCain]], who she asserts is not conservative, but [[liberal]].

==Books==

Some of his books include
*''[[High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton]]'' (2002)
*''[[Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right]]'' (2003)
*''[[Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism]]'' (2004)
*''[[How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)]]'' (2005)
*''[[Godless: The Church of Liberalism]]'' (2007)
*''[[If Democrats Had Any Brains They'd Be Republicans]]'' (2007)

In ''Godless'', Coulter argues that liberals make a [[religion]] out of their beliefs which they follow with the same sort of intolerant zeal which they condemn in [[fundamentalist]]s. "Liberalism is a comprehensive belief system denying the Christian belief in man's immortal soul [and] that we are moral beings in God's image." (pg. 3)

==Quotes==
* "Whether they are defending the [[Soviet Union]] or bleating for [[Saddam Hussein]], liberals are always against [[United States of America|America]]. They are either traitors or idiots ... " <Ref>''Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism.''</ref>
* "My only regret with [[Timothy McVeigh]] is he did not go to the [[New York Times]] Building." She later clarified "Of course I regret [saying] it. I should have added, 'after everyone had left the building except the editors and reporters."<ref>[http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-06-09-coulter-roemer_x.htm 9/11 Commissioner Criticizes Coulter's 'Hate-Filled Attack'] Associated Press story in USA Today. "'My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building,' The New York Observer quoted her as saying on Aug. 20, 2002. She clarified those remarks with RightWingNews.com: 'Of course I regret it. I should have added, "after everyone had left the building except the editors and reporters."'"</ref><ref>Hawkins, [http://rightwingnews.com/interviews/anncoulter.php An Interview With Ann Coulter], Right Wing News.</ref>

* "Saddam's barbaric rape rooms, chemical attacks and torture — those, liberals could live with. But now they want us to send troops to [[Darfur]], a country from which no one anticipates terrorism anytime in the next millennium. If you're looking for a good definition of "no imminent threat," Darfur is it... These people can't even wrap up genocide. We've been hearing about this slaughter in Darfur forever — and they still haven't finished. The aggressors are moving like termites across that country. It's like genocide by committee. Who's running this holocaust in Darfur, FEMA?...Darfur is not the threat... though a hostage-taking, [[Holocaust]]-denying lunatic who doesn't own a necktie but is within two years of having a nuclear bomb comes to mind. You can already hear [[Harry Reid]] and [[Nancy Pelosi]] saying, "If the Democrats were in charge, the use of military force wouldn't be necessary because we'd constructively engage them and appease their stated desire to kill us." <REF>This appeared on Coulter's web site on April 4th, 2007. http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/article.cgi?article=177</REF>

* "If you want a shorter rebuilding process, then we're going to have to wage less humane wars. The enemy — as well as innocent civilians — must be bombed into quivering terror. Otherwise, we displace aggression but don't destroy it. Americans are weaker for having seen that kind of carnage in [[World War II]]. Recall that the Worst Generation was raised by the Greatest Generation. That tells you how awful war is. The Greatest Generation was so exhausted by the war, it didn't have the spine to stand up to pot-smoking, draft-dodging hippies occupying administration buildings." <REF>This appeared on Coulter's web site on April 4th, 2007. http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/article.cgi?article=177</REF>

* "I think [women] should be armed but should not vote. No, they all have to give up their vote, not just, you know, the lady clapping and me. The problem with women voting -- and your [[Communists]] will back me up on this -- is that, you know, women have no capacity to understand how money is earned. They have a lot of ideas on how to spend it. And when they take these polls, it's always more money on education, more money on child care, more money on day care." <ref> ''Politically Incorrect'', Feb. 26, 2001 </ref>

* "...a cruise missile is more important than Head Start." <ref>Nov. 2001 speech rebroadcast by C-Span in Jan. 2002</ref>

* On Sept. 13, 2001 she wrote this about the [[September 11, 2001 attacks|Sept. 11 terrorist attack]]: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." <ref>''National Review Online'', September 2001 [http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter.shtml]</ref>

* "We need to execute people like John Walker [Lindh] in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors," Conservative Political Action Conference, January 2002. Coulter later clarified what she meant; "when I said we should "execute" John Walker Lindh, I mis-spoke. What I meant to say was 'We should burn John Walker Lindh alive and televise it on prime-time network TV'. My apologies for any misunderstanding that might have occurred. " <ref>[http://www.rightwingnews.com/interviews/coulteriffic.php RWN's Ann Coulter Interview #2] John Hawkins. </ref>

* "Liberals are driven by [[Satan]] and lie constantly. <ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21345 That Was No Lady -- That Was My Husband], by Ann Coulter, ''Human Events'', 06/28/2007.</ref>

* "Every concrete example of the racism allegedly sweeping the nation's campuses keeps turning out to be a fraud. Far from "institutional racism," there is "institutional racial hoaxism" run amok in this country."<ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22909&email Another Liberal Noose-ance], by Ann Coulter, ''Human Events'', 10/17/2007,</ref>

* "Rather than own up to their moral blindness to Soviet espionage, Democrats fired up the liberal slander machine, which would be deployed again and again over the next half century to the present day.<ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23316 McCarthyism: The Rosetta Stone of Liberal Lies], by Ann Coulter, ''Human Events'', 11/07/2007.</ref>

* "By exposing the Democrats' absolute blindness to Soviet [[totalitarianism]], McCarthy shattered forever the nation's confidence in the Democrats' capacity to govern. For that, the [[Stalin]]ist [[liberal hate speech|hate machine]] attacked him viciously and has never let up."<ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23824 They'll Never Forgive You], by Ann Coulter, ''Human Events'', 12/05/2007.</ref>

* "How about having [[Tim Russert]] ask Hillary if she believes the [[New Testament]] is the [[perfection]] of the [[Old Testament]]? She claims to be a [[Christian]]. Let's get it on the table: Is she or isn't she? It doesn't get any more bare-bones than that.<ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23174 How Long Before the A.D.L. Kicks Out All its Jews?], By Ann Coulter, ''Human Events'', October 31, 2007.</ref>

* "We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say." <ref>[http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyquotes/a/anncoulter.htm] By Ann Coulter</ref>

* "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity." <ref>[http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnyquotes/a/anncoulter.htm] By Ann Coulter</ref>

* "[The New York Times'] reaction to al-Zarqawi's death was to lower the U.S. flag at the Times building to half-staff. (Ha ha — just kidding! Everybody knows there aren't any American flags at The New York Times.)" <ref>[http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/coulter071306.php3 ''N.Y. Times: Better dead than read]]</ref>

==See Also==
*[[Previous Breaking News/Ann Coulter|Articles about '''Ann Coulter''' from previous "Breaking News"]]
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Lou Dobbs]]

==Notes and references==
{{reflist|2}}

==External Links==
*[http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi AnnCoulter.com]
*RealClearPolitcs.com [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/poll_most_americans_love_coult.html Poll: Most Americans Love Coulter Columns], accessed 6 May 2007.
*[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030501610_2.html The Long Fuse on Ann Coulter's Bomb] - ''Washington Post'' - March 6, 2007

{{DEFAULTSORT:Coulter, Ann}}

[[Category:Women Authors]]

Talk:Leo Baekeland

2008-03-16T02:41:12Z

DHayes: /* Category */

I started to wikify this, then I noticed the whole thing is just copy/pasted from the net. See [http://www.chemheritage.org/classroom/chemach/plastics/baekeland.html here] or [http://www.eoearth.org/article/Baekeland,_Leo_Hendrik here]. [[User:HelpJazz|HelpJazz]] 12:27, 15 September 2007 (EDT)

==Category==

Sorry, EdBot is half-baked. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 22:39, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
:I think the proper Marketing Speak here is "online experience may vary" ;) --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 22:41, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Template talk:Babel

2008-03-16T02:36:06Z

DHayes:

==Copy Problems==

This appears to have been directly copied from wikipedia, and is now screwing up the Wanted Pages list because there's a request for <nowiki>[[Category:Wikipedians by language]]</nowiki>. Can someone please edit this and take that link out... [[User:TheGuy|TheGuy]] 18:53, 8 November 2007 (EST)

:Bump [[User:TheGuy|TheGuy]] 19:51, 9 November 2007 (EST)

::Bump again, even though the category in question is "Category:Conservapedians by language" now. --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 16:00, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
::: I've removed it, purely on the basis of the request, because I haven't got to grips with how this template is supposed to work. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:23, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
::::Not really sure myself, but a few users apparently use it. Ah, wait, [[Conservapedia:Babel]] has a usage example (though it calls a non-existent template, so maybe fix the example there, too? (I feel a bit silly, dragging you from page to page, but all these pages are protected!)
::::I'll make a note on my user page to write up a short explanation to use on the template page, with a link to the CP:Babel one. --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 22:36, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

User talk:Jimmy

2008-03-16T02:22:23Z

DHayes: Thanks and sorry!

{{welcome|sig=[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 23:52, 19 November 2007 (EST)}}

Take a better look to the the article [[Gettysburg Address]]. There are the words.

"That we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain-that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom-and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

--[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 12:30, 19 November 2007 (EST)

What are you trying to say? The words 'under God' were added after I pointed out the discrepancy between the article and the Breaking News item. Check the history, http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Gettysburg_Address&diff=339689&oldid=289268 --Jimmy 19:29, 19 November 2007 (EST)

: We have to thank you for your comment. Now the article is better... But in your first comment you did not mention the words "under God". Next time may be you could be more specific. Is that asking to much? --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 23:51, 19 November 2007 (EST)

The main subject of the news item was the phrase "under God". I didn't think repeating the wording of the phrase was all that critical in getting my point across. It seems at least one person, Schlafly, was able to understand what I was talking about. My request to you is to put a little more research into your responses before asking people to "take a better look." Thanks --Jimmy 00:21, 20 November 2007 (EST)

:We were in the middle of a Contest, but even we were in normal times it is too much work for a Sysop to read every word of every comment. Your comment '''was NOT''' clear enough. Also, I find your reply lack of kindness. Could it change? --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 18:43, 20 November 2007 (EST)

Well now, this is going from bad to worse. Your attitude is making me wonder why I even pointed out the error of the Gettysburg article in the first place. I would appreciate it if you would just let this matter drop, because face it, you made a mistake.

The comment I made was short and to the point. The founder of this website understood what I was talking about and thanked me for my efforts. If you have a problem with spending two seconds to read the 20+ words I wrote, then maybe you should reevaluate your way of conducting your role as an editor.

As for my alleged lack of kindness, you are the one that said I should “take a better look” even though you failed to take ten seconds to point, click, and read the history of the Gettysburg article. Doesn’t that sound hypocritical? It is the carelessness on your part that has resulted in this meaningless exchange. Is this what I am to expect from the majority of sysops on this website? I hope not. --Jimmy 19:59, 20 November 2007 (EST)

::Your help in this matter has been fine and noticed. It has been grateful for by Andy and by me. There is no doubt about it. We encourage you to keep helping CP. What I can not accept is to see it as a mistake.

::You started writing:

:::''The article on the Gettysburg Address is concise and to the point, yet it does not contain '''the phrase''' attributed to it by the 'Breaking News' section.''

::And the phrase was: ''"That we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain-that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom-and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."''

::That phrase '''was''' in the article with the difference that 2 words were not there: '''"under God".'''

::I feel that CP needs a lot of new articles and improve many of old ones. I feel that we do not have enough time for guessing what users want to say. Is that a mistake?

::About "kindness", personally, I am in a city where this is important. But, don't worry, I can survive as far as now. Let see the future!

--[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 08:12, 21 November 2007 (EST)

:::The news item in question was entirely about how Lincoln inserted the phrase “under God” in his address. It was obvious to me what I was talking about and it appeared to be obvious to Schlafly what I was talking about. Yet to you for some reason, it was not. Maybe if you had read my entire comment without skipping over part of it you would have understood what I was talking about.

:::It’s ironic how you attach a lot of importance to kindness while at the same time starting your introduction to me with a snarky comment about my post.--Jimmy 20:51, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:::: Fine. Schlafly could knew what to do because it was him who wrote the news. But a normal human may not as happens to me. That is why I ask you again to be more specific.

::::: I am sure you can go to the beginning of the page and read how I started: WELCOME, WAS HE FIRST WORD... GO [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimmy&oldid=339685]--[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 23:41, 21 November 2007 (EST)

This was the Breaking news in question: ''On November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln inserted "under God" into an already-prepared [[Gettysburg Address]] and declared, "That we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain-that this nation, '''under God''', shall have a new birth of freedom-and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."'' --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 07:52, 22 November 2007 (EST)

==Your editing==
Yes that's right, the editors must provide documentation to back up what they write. The editors must also not be divisive. Since this encyclopedia is in the beginning stages, the editors must work together to build it up properly. Do you follow now? I looked at the majority of your edits which are mostly to the talk pages and you are walking a fine line between being devisive and being outright contemptuous, and it isn't just the talk page on public schools; its others as well, begining with your first edits regarding the Gettysburg Address back in November. Now if you want to make those valid contributions as you said, then you need to learn to work with the rest of us; if there's a lack of source material, then you need to swallow your pride and either respectfully ask the person involved or find it yourself. If you don't want to do any of the above, you know where the door is. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 16:55, 1 January 2008 (EST)

:Thank-you for finally admitting what is right. Following the rules and making suggestions for improvement is not being divisive or whining. Don't you get it? I'm the guy that's playing by the rules, making valid contributions, providing references, asking for references from unsupported assertions, etc. I'm doing all this to IMPROVE Conservapedia! What are you doing other than giving me grief for NOT violating any rules and insisting others follow them?

:My very first contribution to this website was to point out an error on the main page and the website founder thanked me for doing so. Yet all that has happened with that bit of helpful information was to be basically treated like crap by Joaquín Martínez.

:Why don't we talk about the majority of my edits, which don't violate the rules by the way.
:- First edit: talk page sugestion, thanked by founder
:- Next four edits: responding to syop that misinterpreted what I wrote and refused to admit his mistake.
:- Next eight edits: contributed to two articles on schools. One edit was on the talk page for clarification
:- Next three edits: quotes with references to the Atheism Quotes article and one talk comment on why my contributions were reverted without explanation.
:- Evolution talk page: trying to improve the content but my contributions are limited because the article is edited and locked by one person.

:See where this is going? I am working with others by making contributions. You are giving me a hard time when I insist that articles have a certain measure of quality and insist that people provide references. I'm working hard enough to provide my own references to the material I write without trying to find references to someone else's assertions that I think are incorrect. I'm treating people with respect, but if their opinions or assertions are lacking supporting documentation I will let them know, just as I have been doing. --Jimmy 17:29, 1 January 2008 (EST)

==Your block==
You were warned by an admin above about your editing. Today you removed Aschlafly's edits to the ACLU article while adding your own. This is NOT allowed. You do NOT decide if someone is violating Conservapedia guidelines.
When you return, if you argue with me or another admin or continue editing in a confrontational style, you will receive a permanent block. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 15:03, 14 February 2008 (EST)

==No problem, Jimmy==

I calls em like I sees em. You were blocked unfairly. I'm only glad that someone listened. [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 23:23, 3 March 2008 (EST)

== Thanks and sorry! ==

Your support after my block was much appreciated! I do apologize for getting you blocked, though. :( --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 22:22, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Diameter

2008-03-14T22:14:03Z

DHayes: Removed redundant definition, add note about the diameter also referring to the length of the diameter.

The '''diameter''' of a circle is a [[line segment]] which passes through its center and intersects its perimeter (or circumference) at two opposite points. The length of the circle's diameter is twice its radius (distance from center to any point on the circle). Often, one simply speaks of "the diameter" while referring to the length of the diameter.

[[Pi]] times the diameter is the length of the [[circumference]] of the circle.<ref>Wile, Dr. Jay L. ''Exploring Creation With General Science''. Anderson: Apologia Educational Ministries, Inc.

2000</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Geometry]]

Template talk:User koine

2008-03-14T22:01:28Z

DHayes: Yes, that was what I had in mind. :) Could you maybe check out Template talk:Babel, too?

This template links to an empty, non-existent category and produces a Wanted Page (#290) right now. Any sysop up to the incredibly hard task of removing that link or changing it to point at [[Greek language]] or [[Koine]]? --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 16:10, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
:Is that what you meant? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 05:32, 14 March 2008 (EDT)
::Yes, thanks! May I ask for another [[Template talk:Babel|favor over here]]?--[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 18:01, 14 March 2008 (EDT)

Eliot Spitzer

2008-03-14T21:58:06Z

DHayes: Changing picture, see talk for reasoning.

[[Image:Spitzer down.jpg|right|thumb|Eliot Spitzer]]
'''Eliot Laurence Spitzer''' (born June 10, 1959) is the Governor of [[New York]] and member of the [[Democratic Party]]. Spitzer was elected governor in a landslide victory in the November 2006 election<ref>http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2006&fips=36&off=5&elect=0&f=0</ref>. He is the former New York State Attorney General.

* On the national scene for nearly two decades, Mr. Spitzer was in private law practice briefly before becoming a district attorney and chief New York prosecutor. Mr. Spitzer made national headlines along the way, successfully prosecuting everything from financial malfeasance to prostitution rings — with the former earning him the nickname Mr. Clean of Wall Street. <ref>''Washington Times'' editorial, March 11, 2008 [http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080311/EDITORIAL/673743404/1013]</ref>

On March 10, 2008, Spitzer informed his most senior administration officials that he had been involved in a [[prostitution]] ring. He is also currently the subject of an investigation by the New York state Attorney General's office for ordering the State Police to keep special records of [[Republican]] state Senate majority leader Joseph L. Bruno's whereabouts when he traveled with police escorts in New York City. At the direction of top officials of the Spitzer administration, the New York State Police created documents meant to cause political damage to Bruno.

The cover of the June 14, 2004 edition of ''[[National Review]]'' referred to Spitzer as "the most destructive politician in America". <ref>http://www.nationalreview.com/ponnuru/ponnuru200406090832.asp</ref> He was considered an enemy by those on [[Wall Street]]. <ref>Wall Street Journal, March 11, 2008</ref>

It has been noted that Spitzer, despite using laws against prostution to destroy his enemies and further his political career, was willing to violate these laws himself. <ref>http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VBF6OO0&show_article=1</ref> In the aftermath of the prostitution scandal, he announced on March 12, 2008 that he plans to resign effective Monday, March 17, 2008.

== References ==
<div class="references-small">
<references />

==External links==
*[http://www.ny.gov/governor/ Governor of New York] - Official Website of the Governor of New York
*[http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate.phtml?si=200634&c=422598 Follow the Money] - Eliot L Spitzer 2006 campaign contributions
*[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/nyregion/10cnd-spitzer.html?em&ex=1205294400&en=d0917c3b73427b6a&ei=5087%0A Spitzer Is Linked to Prostitution Ring] - from the ''New York Times''

{{DEFAULTSORT:Spitzer, Eliot}}
[[Category: Democratic Party]]
[[Category: United States Governors]]

Talk:Eliot Spitzer

2008-03-13T21:01:24Z

DHayes: Better picture?

== Better picture? ==

Surely there is a better picture of the guy somewhere? The current one looks more like an ad for a laxative: "Constipation? We can help you!" --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 17:01, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

Gregory R. Ball

2008-03-13T20:55:54Z

DHayes: /* First term (2007- ) */ Remove link pointing at a non-existent section of a non-existent redirect of our article. There are still insanely many redlinks here, though. Any input of the higher-ups?

'''Gregory R. Ball''' (born September 16, 1977) is an [[United States|American]] business executive, retired [[United States Air Force|Air Force]] officer and member of the [[New York State Assembly]]. Ball has risen to prominence for his views on [[illegal immigration]], and has been named a Chairman of [http://www.statelegislatorsforlegalimmigration.com/ Lawmakers for Legal Immigration], an immigration reform group. He is a resident of [[Carmel, New York|Carmel]], [[New York]].

Assemblyman Ball serves as the [[Ranking member]] on the [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/Vets/20060830/ Veteran's Affairs] committee, and is also a member of the [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=13 Election Law], [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=14 Energy], [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=22 Housing], and [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=35 Social Services Committees].<ref>"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=099&sh=com Committee memberships]". ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> He represents [[New York's 99th assembly district]] which is comprised of the towns [[Patterson, New York|Patterson]], [[Mahopac, New York|Mahopac]], [[Carmel, New York|Carmel]], [[Southeast, New York|Southeast]], [[Putnam Lake, New York|Putnam Lake]] and [[Brewster, New York|Brewster]], in [[Putnam County, New York|Putnam County]]; [[Yorktown, New York|Yorktown]], [[Mohegan Lake, New York|Mohegan Lake]], [[Somers, New York|Somers]], and [[North Salem, New York|North Salem]] in [[Westchester County, New York|Westchester County]]; and [[Pawling (town), New York|Pawling]] in [[Dutchess County, New York|Duchess County]].

== Early career and background ==
Ball was born in [[Pawling, New York|Pawling]], [[New York]], and grew up on the Kennedy estate of Stephen and [[Jean Kennedy|Jean Kennedy-Smith]], sister of [[President of the United States|President]] [[John F. Kennedy]], where his parents were both caretakers.<ref name="feet">Klein, Benjamin. "[http://www.legislativegazette.com/read_more.php?story=1874&searchstr=Greg%20Ball Ball looks to hold people’s feet to the fire]". ''[[Legislative Gazette]]''. January 16, 2007.</ref> He attended the prestigious [[Valley Forge Military Academy and College|Valley Forge Military Academy]] before receiving an appointment to the [[United States Air Force Academy]] from Congresswoman [[Sue Kelly]].<ref name="officialbio"/> He was the first member of his family to attend college.<ref name="campaignbio">"[http://www.ball4ny.com/about.aspx About Greg]". ''[http://www.assemblymangball.com/ Ball for Assembly]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball received a [[Bachelors of Arts]] in Government in 2001.<ref name="officialbio"/> He is currently completing a Masters thesis in [[International Affairs]] at [[Georgetown University]], and was a [[fellow]] at the [[Center for the Study of the Presidency]] from 2002 to 2003.<ref>Henderson, Robert E., ed. "[http://www.thepresidency.org/Publications/fellowspublications.html A Dialogue on the Presidency with a New Generation of Leaders: Papers of the 2002-2003 Center Fellows]". Washington, DC: [http://www.thepresidency.org CSP], 2003.</ref> Ball is a board member of the Air Force Academy Association of Graduates, and is a member of several area [[Chambers of Commerce]] and business associations.<ref>"[http://www.usafa.org/about/governance/BoardCommittees.aspx Committees of the Board]". ''[http://www.usafa.org Air Force Academy Association of Graduates]''. Retrieved on February 26, 2008.</ref><ref>Greene, Mae. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18784866&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=8 Chamber of Commerce awardees]". ''[http://pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. September 7, 2007.</ref>

Ball initially interned in the [[White House]] [[ONDCP|Drug Policy Office]] during the term of President [[Bill Clinton]] and was then assigned to the [[11th Wing]] as a [[Aide-de-camp|protocol officer]] to the [[Secretary of the Air Force]] and the [[Air Force Chief of Staff]].<ref name="officialbio"/><ref>"I was honored to serve as Greg Ball’s mentor while he was in the U.S. Air Force. When Greg was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant at the United States Air Force Academy, I was honored to pin on his rank and commission him as a young officer. As Greg excelled through the ranks and was promoted to Captain, I was honored to watch Greg perform as an outstanding young officer. Greg Ball graduated from the Air Force Academy, served in the White House Drug Policy Office, lived on Capitol Hill, and served in the 11th Wing in our Nation’s capital working directly for four star generals in the Pentagon and throughout the National Capitol Region. Few Lieutenants are chosen for such a demanding position."–[[Colonel|Col.]] Joseph P. Green, [[United States Air Force|USAF (Ret.)]], [http://www.newscopy.org/2006/06/99th_balls_mili.html E-Mail to Bob Fois]. June 6, 2006.</ref> He was awarded an achievement medal for outstanding service by [[General (United States)|General]] [[John P. Jumper]] and was honorably discharged from active duty in January of 2005 at the rank of [[Captain (OF-2)|Captain]].<ref name="officialbio"/><ref>Benson, John. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15827256&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=6 Town of Pawling 2005 Year in Review]". ''[http://pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. December 29, 2005.</ref> Ball remains in the [[Individual Ready Reserve|U.S. Air Force Ready Reserve]] to this day.<ref>Benson, John. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=17343190&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=8 Community salutes military families]". ''[http://www.pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. December 20, 2006.</ref>

Upon his separation from active duty, Ball returned to New York to work for [http://www.exceedintl.com/ Exceed International], a commercial development corporation, eventually becoming an Executive Vice President in the Northeast division.<ref name="officialbio"/><ref name="exceed">"[http://www.exceedintl.com/aboutus.asp The Next Economy]". ''[http://www.exceedintl.com/ Exceed International]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> In 2006, Exceed proposed a $75 million urban renewal project for the village [[Brewster, New York|Brewster]] which would generate some $2 million a year in tax revenue for the town.<ref name="exceed1">"[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=16351907&BRD=1708&PAG=461&dept_id=72445&rfi=8 Plans call for $75 million urban renewal project of village's downtown]". ''[http://www.putnamcountycourier.com Putnam County Courier]''. March 24, 2006.</ref> Village Mayor John Degnan noted that "All of the infrastructure work recently completed by defining our identity within the watershed has paid off. Brewster finds itself in a situation where people are eagerly interested in working with the village in partnership to see our village revitalized".<ref name="exceed1"/>

==Political career==

===2006 election===
Following controversy involving New York State Assemblyman [[Will Stephens]], Ball announced his candidacy for State Assembly as a [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] and stated he would attempt to unseat the incumbent in a primary in 2005.<ref name="stephens1">{{

Cite news
|url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161094,00.html
|publisher=''[[Associated Press]]''
|author=Wagenseil, Paul
|title=Politician Tells Voters They’re Idiots
|date=June 30, 2005

}}</ref> Stephens' family had held the seat nearly continuously for eighty years: his grandfather, [[D. Mallory Stephens]], represented the district from 1926 to 1952; his father, Willis Stephens Sr., held the seat from 1952 to 1982; and Stephens himself served from 1994 to 2006.<ref>"[http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/stephens.html Index to Politicians: Stephens]". ''[http://politicalgraveyard.com The Political Graveyard]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball received over $110,000 in campaign contributions for the race.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/07/17/gregs-been-spending/ Greg’s been spending]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. July 13, 2006.</ref><ref>"[http://www.elections.state.ny.us/plsql_browser/efs_summary_page?comid_in=A18887&rdate_in=15-JUL-2006&reportid_in=K&eyear_in=2006 New Yorkers on the Ball. 2006 July Periodic Report Summary Page]". ''[http://www.elections.state.ny.us/ New York State Board of Elections]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> He was placed on the primary ballot by the signature of over 1800 petitioners.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/07/11/balls-in-or-at-least-his-paperwork-is/ Ball’s in or at least his paperwork is]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. July 11, 2006.</ref>

At times Ball's campaign was noted for its unorthodoxy, including hiring a man in a chicken suit to follow around the incumbent after Stephens refused to debate him.<ref name="chicken">Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/05/31/the-chicken-suit-has-been-mothballed-sort-of/ The chicken suit has been mothballed, sort of]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. May 31, 2006.</ref> Ball again garnered attention at an event in August of 2006 where he carried trash bags to a press conference and drew attention to Stephens, who also served as the legal counsel to the town of Southeast, New York, for having accepted $9,355 from Waste Hauling CEO, convicted [[felon]] and reputed mob boss [[James Galante]], who was later awarded a 1.5 million dollar no-bid garbage contract by the town board on Stephens' recommendation.<ref name="stephens2">{{

Cite news
|url= http://ncnlocal.com/archives/archives_2006/8-23-06/topstory.htm
|publisher= ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''
|author=Barron, Sam
|title=Ball Fires at Will
|date=August 23, 2006

}}</ref> He was joined at this event by his eventual opponent in the general election, [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratc]] Ken Harper.<ref name="stephens2"/> Both Ball and Harper referred to the State Legislature as "dysfunctional" during their campaigns.<ref>"[http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/11/07/ny/state/race/nyasm099/questions.html Candidates Answer Questions on the Issues]". ''[[League of Women Voters]]''. Retrieved February 28, 2007.</ref>

On September 12, 2006, in the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] Primary for New York's 99th District, Ball defeated Stephens in a landslide with 70.4% (5,165 votes) to 29.6% (2,176 votes) for Stephens, the lowest vote total for any incumbent running for reelection to the State Assembly that day.<ref>Lopriore, Danny. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1203 Ball Rolls]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. September 13, 2006.</ref><ref name="stephens3">{{

Cite news
|url= http://www.ny1.com/ny/Election/2006primary/index.html?page_name=assembly
|publisher=''[[NY1|NY1 News]]''
|title=Primary 2006
|date=September 2006

}}</ref> Stephens claimed he had been the victim of a negative campaign, citing mailings that were distributed calling him a 'country-club liberal' and hilighting his close relationship with Assembly Speaker [[Sheldon Silver]].<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/08/10/strange-bedfellows/ Strange bedfellows]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. August 10, 2006.</ref> However, Stephens himself drew criticism when he refused to repudiate a letter about challenger Greg Ball which falsely claimed Mr. Ball had received a dishonorable discharge from the United States Air Force.<ref>Fois, Bob. "[http://www.newscopy.org/2006/05/more_on_99th_ch.html More On 99th: Cheap Shots On Military]". ''[http://www.newscopy.org News Copy]''. May 25, 2006.</ref><ref name="five">{{Cite news
|url= http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060913/NEWS02/609130362/1020/NEWS04
|publisher=''[[The Journal News]]''
|title=Ball Defeats incumbent Stephens for GOP Line in Assembly Race
|date=September 2006}}</ref><ref>Fois, Bob. "[http://www.newscopy.org/2006/06/99th_balls_mili.html 99th: Ball's military record assailed]". ''[http://www.newscopy.org News Copy]''. June 29, 2006.</ref> Ball did not dispute that he ran hard for his seat, knocking on 10,000 doors prior to the primary.<ref name="nyt1"/>

Due to New York's [[electoral fusion]] system, the Assemblyman had vowed to remain in the race on the [[Conservative Party of New York|Conservative]] and [[Independence Party of New York|Independence]] lines.<ref>Wilbur, Martin. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1392 Stephens drops out of race against Ball to pursue bench]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. December 10, 2006.</ref> Ultimately, Stephens decided to withdraw from the race altogether, instead taking a nomination for Supreme Court Justice in Queens, in order to allow Ball ballot access on the Independence and Conservative lines.<ref>{{Cite news
|url= http://www.newscopy.org/2006/09/99th_assembly_d.html
|publisher=''[http://www.newscopy.org News Copy]''
|title=99th Assembly District Race - Now the Fun
|date=September 14, 2006}}</ref> Although Stephens attempted to have his named removed from the ballot, Ken Harper, the Democratic nominee, sued the State Board of Elections claiming that Stephens had filed a certificate declining his nomination eight days too late.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/10/27/stephens-stays-off-ballot/ Stephens stays off ballot]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. October 27, 2006.</ref> The [[New York Court of Appeals]] eventually ruled that Stephens name should remain on the ballot.<ref>"[http://www.loislaw.com/ogpc/login.htp?WSRet=12&dockey=19892277@NYCASE&OLDURL=/gpc/index.htp HARPER v. NY STATE BD. OF ELECTIONS, 34 A.D.3d 919 (3d Dept 2006) No. 501448]". ''[[New York Court of Appeals|New York Appellate Division Reports]]''. November 2, 2006.</ref>

Despite Stephens name remaining on the ballot, Ball went on to win a plurality of votes in the general election on November 6, 2006.<ref name="election1"/><ref>Lopriore, Danny. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1576 Republican survives Democrat wave to win]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. November 22, 2006.</ref> He was also buoyed by endorsements from the [[Fraternal Order of Police]], [[Putnam County, New York|Putnam County]] [[Sheriff]] [[Donald Smith]] and [[Duchess County, New York|Duchess County]] [[Sheriff]] Butch Anderson prior to the election.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/10/30/sheriffs-got-their-man/ Sherrifs got their man]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. October 30, 2006.</ref> His upset victory earned him the title of "Newsmaker of the Year" from one local publication and he also shared a front-page cover ''[[The Journal News]]'' with fellow upset winer [[John Hall (New York)|John Hall]] the day after election day.<ref>Stone, Adam. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1701 Greg Ball, John Hall]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. December 30, 2006.</ref>

===First term (2007- )===
Ball has stated that "since my election victory, we have made extraordinary progress by elevating the debate on tough issues like taxes, illegal immigration and dysfunction in Albany."<ref name="ruledout"/> He was sworn into office on January 8, 2007.<ref>Kramer, Catherine. "[http://www.legislativegazette.com/read_more.php?story=1851&searchstr=Greg%20Ball Democrats don’t have monopoly on reform]". ''[[Legislative Gazette]]''. January 8, 2007.</ref> The first time Ball [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAojIFQczLA rose to speak in the Assembly chamber], he called the legislature "dysfunctional", and withstood boos from his colleagues.<ref>{{cite episode
| title = Joint Legislative Session
| url = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAojIFQczLA
| series = [[New York State Assembly]]
| network = [http://www.senate.state.ny.us/senatehomepage.nsf/SenNetTV?OpenForm SenNet TV]
| airdate = 2007-02-07
}}</ref><ref>Gallagher, Jay. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/03/06/different-tune-from-freshman-putnam-lawmaker/ Different tune from freshman Putnam lawmaker]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. March 6, 2007.</ref> He was unhappy because lawmakers voted to elect a colleague, [[Thomas DiNapoli]] as the new State Comptroller, disregarding the recommendations of a bipartisan panel appointed by [[Governor of New York|Governor]] [[Eliot Spitzer]] consisting of former state Comptrollers who suggested three separate finalists and had not found DiNapoli to be qualified for the job.<ref name="gregballtruereformer">"[http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29551972_ITM The true reformers: The 56 state legislators who refused to support Thomas DiNapoli for comptroller constitute an honor roll]". ''[[Albany Times-Union]]''. February 9, 2007.</ref><ref>Cooper, Michael. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/nyregion/08comptroller.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1170997200&en=f63b13cba91f4851&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin" Legislators Pick a Comptroller, Defying Spitzer]". ''[[New York Times]]''. February 8, 2007.</ref> The next day, Governor Spitzer called Ball to express support for his sentiments.<ref name="eliotphone">Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/02/09/eliots-on-the-phone/ Eliot's on the phone]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 9, 2007.</ref> Ball stated that "It was not easy getting up as the new guy and standing up to tell a group of people what they don’t want to hear" but his speech became so popular that soon dozens of reporters began calling, he appeared on [[Fox News]], excerpts from the floor speech popped up on numerous political blogs, his campaign web site received so many visits that its server crashed, and, a [[YouTube]] video of his remarks was ranked 80th among news videos the day it was uploaded.<ref name="nyt1">Confessore, Nicholas. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/nyregion/10assemblyman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all Scolding Peers, Legislator Draws Notice]". ''[[New York Times]]''. February 10, 2007.</ref> Although the remarks were contentious, they echoed a fifty-six page study from the nonpartisan [[New York University School of Law|New York University School of Law's]] [[Brennan Center for Justice]], which referred to the legislature as "the least deliberative and most dysfunctional in the nation".<ref>Creelan, Jeremy and Moulton, Laura. "[http://brennan.3cdn.net/1f4d5e4fa546eaa9cd_fxm6iyde5.pdf The New York State Legislative Process: An evaluation and blueprint for reform]". ''[[New York University School of Law]] [[Brennan Center for Justice]]''. Retrieved on February 28, 2008.</ref>

Ball again joined Spitzer, this time calling for property tax reform, and proposed an [[Inflation-indexed bond|inflation-indexed]] cap on spending and school and [[property tax]] increases known as the "New York State Property Taxpayers Protection Act" similar to the measure adopted by [[Massachusettes]] and fourteen other states.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2008/01/10/ball-on-the-governors-address/ Ball on the Governors Address]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. January 10, 2008.</ref><ref>Lucas, Ashley. "[http://www.legislativegazette.com/read_more.php?story=2564&searchstr=Greg%20Ball Assembly GOP hears residents on taxing issues]". ''[[Legislative Gazette]]''. June 18, 2007.</ref><ref>Barron, Sam. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=2364 School tax reform gains steam]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. May 30, 2007.</ref> Ball has also proposed measures to cap or eliminate the [[excise tax|state sales tax on gasoline]].<ref name="greenstock"/> He has voted dozens of times against any bill that proposes tax increases, including opposition a measure to raise the Putnam County sales tax by half a percent from 3.5% to 4% that was supported by [[State Senator]] [[Vincent Leibell]], a fellow local legislator.<ref>Matthews, Cara. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/06/21/raging-against-the-machine/ Raging against the machine]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. June 21, 2007.</ref> Ball was also dismayed when asked by county legislators to carry a bill to [[Albany, New York|Albany]] requesting a sales tax of 8.375%, which County Executive [[Robert Bondi]], a fellow Republican, claimed was necessary to ward off a projected 66% property tax increase.<ref name="taxcrisis1">Elan, Susan. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/04/24/ball-calls-putnam-budget-crisis-forum/ Ball calls Putnam budget crisis forum]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. April 24, 2007.</ref> Ball felt that the County legislature could have eliminated more "[[Pork-barrel spending|pork]]" from the county budget.<ref name="taxcrisis1"/> Ball later joined with a [[Westchester County Board of Legislators|county legislator]] in calling on Bondi to resign, citing his "incompetence and stubborness" in proposing a budget with a 40% increase in the tax levy.<ref>Boisi, Patrick. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=2882 Bondi defends 40 percent tax increase, Ball calls for his resignation]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. September 12, 2007.</ref><ref name="resignnow">Anderson, Liz. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/09/07/ball-to-bondi-resign-now/ Ball to Bondi: Resign now]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. September 7, 2007.</ref>

Ball pledged to deliver an [[Empire Zone]] to Putnam County during his campaign, and this became a reality in February of 2008.<ref>"[http://www.assemblymangball.com/BlogEntry.aspx?entryID=73 Empire Zone comes to Putnam County]". ''[http://ball4ny.com Ball for Assembly]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref><ref>"[http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/PC_EZ-08Feb08.html State approves Putnam County Empire Zone]". ''[http://midhusonnews.com Mid-Hudson News]''. February 8, 2008.</ref> Advantages of an Empire Zone include offering up to 100-percent state subsidy of a business' real estate taxes for up to 10 years, state tax credits up to $3,500 for five years for each new employee, a waiver of sales tax on certain business purchases and sales tax credits for contributions to [[501c3]] non-profit groups.<ref>Gross, Eric. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19289190&BRD=1708&PAG=461&dept_id=72445&rfi=6 Empire Zone becomes reality in Putnam County]". ''[http://www.putnamcountycourier.com Putnam County Courier]''. February 14, 2008.</ref> Ball has also delivered dozens of grants for organizations throughout the 99th Assembly District, including the [[American Red Cross]].<ref>"[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=3580 Ball provides $10,000 to American Red Cross emergency preparedness program]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. February 13, 2008.</ref><ref name="vol1iss3">"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/member_files/099/20070926a/ A Community News Letter: Pawling]", vol 1., Issue 3. ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. October 2007.</ref>

As ranking member of the Veterans Affairs Committee, Ball announced legislation expanding the eligibility for veterans to receive tax exemption benefits, including the exemption of real property owned by certain disabled veterans from property taxation.<ref name="vol1iss3"/> Ball also authored the bill to create a tuition remission program for veterans, offering them free tuition at both [[SUNY]] and [[CUNY]] undergraduate and graduate institutions.<ref>"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A08532 Bill Summary - A08532]". ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Although the first bill did not make it out of committee, after Governor Spitzer called on the Assembly to pass such a measure, Ball reintroduced the legislation and has gained thirty-one cosponsors.<ref>"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A09701 Bill Summary - A09701]". ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> State Senator Vinnie Leibell, whose Senate district encompasses the 99th Assembly District, announced the Senate would begin working to pass a similar measure.<ref>"[http://senatorvincentleibell.com/40/news/07-03-01/making_college_education_more_affordable.aspx Making college education more affordable]". ''[http://senatorvincentleibell.com New York State Senate]''. March 1, 2007. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Currently, the State of New York [http://www.hesc.com Higher Education Services Corporation] only offers tuition awards of $1000 per semester for military service.<ref>"[http://www.hesc.com/content.nsf/SFC/2/Veterans_Tuition_Awards Veterans Tuition Awards]". ''[http://www.hesc.com New York State Higher Education Services Corporation].'' Retrieved on February 25, 2008.</ref>

His support for pro-agricultural legislation, including creation of measures to establish a $30 million Dairy Assistance Program, as well as providing financial assistance to counties for farmland protection and for the construction of greenmarkets, among others, earned him an award from the [http://www.nyfb.org/ New York Farm Bureau].<ref>"[http://www.nyfb.org/nyfbnews/2007/pr091107.htm New York Farm Bureau names 'Circle of Friends' in the State Legislature]". [http://www.nyfb.org/ New York Farm Bureau]. September 11, 2007. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball was also named as the [[National Rifle Association|New York State Rifle & Pistol Association]] "Assemblyman of the Year" for his dedication toward advocating for outdoor sports and sportsmen’s rights.<ref name="vol1iss3"/> He has also been involved in the fight to keep [[Pepsi Bottling Group]] in his district, after the company, which is [[Westchester County, New York|Westchester County's]] second-largest employer announced it was considering relocating out of his district due to the tax burden it faces.<ref>Dumas, Bob. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=3488 Officials scramble to keep Pepsi in Somers]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. January 23, 2008.</ref><ref name="pepsi1">Driscoll, Eugene. "[http://www.newstimes.com/ci_8249208?source=most_emailed Danbury trying to woo Pepsi]". ''[[Danbury News-Times]]''. February 13, 2008.</ref><ref>According to "[http://www.nystu.org/issues-facts.cfm Facts & Figures]" from the ''[[National Taxpayers Union|New York State Taxpayers Union]]'', New York's corporate tax structure is composed of a flat rate of 7.5% on all corporate income. Among states levying corporate income taxes, New York's rate ranks 21st highest. In 2004, New York's corporate tax collections were $106 per capita and ranked 14th highest nationally. New York also ranks 50th (worst) in the non-profit Tax Foundation's State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales and gross receipts taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on wealth, including residential and commercial property.</ref> He told reporters that "Westchester County has become a nightmare for not only business owners, but property owners, because of the tax burden", but that he was "cautiously optimistic" they would remain in their [[Somers, New York]] headquarters.<ref name="pepsi1"/>

According to ''[[The Journal News]]'', one key to Ball's success was that his campaign identified the concern local voters cared most about: illegal immigration.<ref name="west1">West, Debra. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070812/OPINION/708120332/1151 The Greg Ball effect: An anti-illegal alien strategy takes root and thrives]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. August 12, 2007.</ref> He was joined by former [[INS]] agents in a rally protesting a proposed work shelter for illegal immigrations in the village of Brewster.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/06/26/just-say-no/ Just say no]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. June 26, 2007.</ref> Ball made illegal immigration a focal point of his bid for office.<ref name="feet"/> In October of 2007, he strongly criticized Governor Eliot Spitzer's plan to give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.<ref>Blain, Glenn. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/10/01/assembly-gop-takes-aim-at-spitzer-license-plan/ Assembly GOP takes aim at Spitzer license plan]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. October 1, 2007.</ref><ref>Barron, Sam. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=2995 Ball strikes back, threatens to sue Governor Spitzer over drivers license policy]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. October 3, 2007.</ref> An oft-quoted line from his campaign fliers was that "Illegal Immigration is Illegal".<ref>Applebome, Peter. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/nyregion/11towns.html?n=Top/News/New%20York%20and%20Region/Columns/Our%20Towns&pagewanted=all When an Election Becomes a Forum on Immigration]". ''[[New York Times]]''. November 11, 2007.</ref><ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007712130403 Assemblyman Ball discusses illegal immigration and public safety]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 13, 2007.</ref> He was named "Albany's most ardent supporter of legal immigration" when he was appointed State Chairman of the national immigration reform group [http://www.statelegislatorsforlegalimmigration.com/ State Legislators for Legal Immigration].<ref>"[http://www.assemblymangball.com/BlogEntry.aspx?entryID=83 Ball Named States Chairman of National Legal Immigration Group]". ''[http://www.assemblymanball.com Ball for Assembly]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref><ref>Rae, Leah. "[http://immigration.lohudblogs.com/2008/02/14/greg-ball-joins-national-lawmakers-against-alien-invasion/ Greg Ball joins national lawmakers against alien ‘invasion’]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 14, 2008.</ref> Yet Ball declined to speak at an anti illegal-immigration forum in [[Danbury, Connecticut|Danbury]], [[Connecticut]] sponsored by [http://www.uscfile.org/ United States Citizens for Immigration Law Enforcement], calling the group's rhetoric "over the top."<ref>Homayonpour, Marietta. "[http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:W2k7P7nKUDEJ:www.newstimes.com/ci_7848096%3Fsource%25253Dmost_emailed.26978592730A3B8C7F471EACE0DA4EF2.html+site:newstimes.com+%22Immigration+Law+Enforcement%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us Should Danbury partner with ICE?]". ''[[Danbury News-Times]]''. December 31, 2007.</ref><ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/04/30/not-visiting-connecticut/ Not visiting Connecticut]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. April 30, 2007.</ref>

In February of 2008, Ball hosted a summit on the [[Immigration and Nationality Act Section 287(g)]] program for law enforcement and elected officials from New York, Connecticut and New Jersey, co-hosted by co-hosted by Jim Pendergraph, U.S. [[Immigration and Customs Enforcement]] (ICE) Executive Director from the United States Department of Homeland Security Office of State and Local Coordination.<ref name="ice1"/><ref name="summit">Driscoll, Eugene. "[http://www.newstimes.com/ci_8249912?source=most_viewed N.Y. lawmaker wants ICE in jails]". ''[[Danbury News-Times]]''. February 13, 2008.</ref> He talked at length about the measure [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVq_9x_FNLE during a Fox News interview] with [[Neil Cavuto]].<ref>{{cite episode
| title = Assemblyman Ball on Neil Cavuto
| url = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVq_9x_FNLE
| series = [[Your World with Neil Cavuto]]
| network = ''[[Fox News]]''
| airdate = 2008-01-01
}}</ref> The 287(g) partnership, which includes training on how to avoid racial profiling, allows local law enforcement officers to work as ICE agents and file immigration violation charges, so that an illegal immigrant charged with crime in would have deportation papers filed immediately.<ref name="ice2">Hughes, Jennifer. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/24immigwe.html?_r=1&ref=nyregionspecial2&oref=slogin Police Seek Help in Criminal Deportation]". ''[[New York Times]]''. February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball believes that correctional officers should receive immigration law enforcement training under the 287(g) program, and has promised to work with the ICE branch of the [[Department of Homeland Security]] by signing up counties which have their own correctional facility for the training.<ref name="ice1">Gross, Eric. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19317567&BRD=1708&PAG=461&dept_id=72445&rfi=6 Ball criticizes immigration law enforcement training for local police forces]". ''[http://www.putnamcountycourier.com Putnam County Courier]''. February 21, 2008.</ref> Ball announced another regional summit that would be held in April of 2008.<ref>Rae, Leah. "[http://lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080210/NEWS01/802100352#pluckcomments Brewster, Suffern pursue immigration enforcement role]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 10, 2008.</ref>

He has noted that illegal immigrants are not always automatically [[deported]] despite facing criminal charges.<ref name="ice2"/> Ball has opposed similar programs enrolling local law enforcement officials in the training, stating that "most local police agencies don't have the resources or the time to dedicate themselves to immigration law enforcement" and that starting a jail house program where names of suspected illegal aliens would be screened by a federal database would be more effective.<ref name="ice1"/> Ball said that "the key in this is that you need a jail, because you can wait weeks to determine someone's immigration status and then trigger the deportation procedure."<ref name="summit"/>

Ball has worked to promote businesses that hire legal immigrant laborers, and has begun to create a database for usage on his campaign website.<ref name="hirelegally">Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/04/25/move-over-yellow-pages/ Move over, Yellow Pages]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. April 25, 2007.</ref> His campaign headquarters in [[Pawling, New York]] may have been targeted over the contentious issue, and was vandalized with [[swastikas]] in October of 2006, although the person or persons responsible misspelled the word "Fascist" twice.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/11/01/definitely-a-trick/ Definitely a trick]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. November 1, 2006.</ref>

The Ball campaign has also focused on promoting energy conservation, calling fuel prices "out of control" and vowing to establish tax credits for usage and production of [[alternative fuels]], establish a state energy planning board, and cut fuel costs by eliminating the state sales tax on gasoline and alternative fuels.<ref>Berg, Weston. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18225626&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=8 Village Hall rally asks Congress to Step it Up]". ''[http://www.pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. April 20, 2007.</ref>

Ball was referred to as "one of the rising stars in the Republican Party"<ref>Blain, Glenn. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/04/could-it-be-ball-vs-hall-in-2008/ Could it be Ball vs. Hall in 2008?]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 4, 2007.</ref> during speculation that he would run against freshman Congressman [[John Hall (New York)|John Hall]] in 2008, although he later ruled out a challenge against Hall.<ref name="ruledout">Risinit, Mike. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071231/NEWS01/712310377 Carmel assemblyman says he won't run for Congress in '08]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 31, 2007.</ref><ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071217/NEWS04/712170350 Ball may run for House seat]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 17, 2007.</ref><ref>Blain, Glenn. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/31/ball-not-running-for-congress/ Ball not running for Congress]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 31, 2007.</ref>

===Courage Cup controversy===
In January of 2007, Ball became involved in a dispute with Andrea Rodgers and Keri Ann Meslar, who ran a charity event known as the "Courage Cup." Ball founded the charity in 2004, prior to his first run for office. His former friends resisted his attempt to retake a leadership role in 2007, and Ball countered that he was the Courage Cup's rightful owner and that the two women stole his intellectual property.<ref name="polo1">Argentsinger, Amy and Roberts, Roxanne. "[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/05/AR2007020501739.html Courage Cup Organizers Cross Polo Mallets]". ''[[Washington Post]]'', C03. February 6, 2007.</ref> Ball had been stationed at [[Bolling Air Force Base]] in [[Washington D.C.]], where he organized the first Courage Cup in 2004, raising nearly $8,000 for the [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania|Philadelphia]], [[Pennsylvania]] based [[Work to Ride ]] program and other organizations.<ref name="polo2">"[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/06/12/polo-anyone/ Assemblyman Ball trading shots in D.C. charity polo event debate]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 2, 2007</ref>

A ''[[Washington Post]]'' article from June of 2007 implied that one of the event directors offered tickets at difference price level with proceeds going to a [[Political Action Committee]] which would later support Ball, although Ball's campaign stated it had nothing to do with the fund raising and that the destination of profits from the event were clearly stated on the purchase form. Despite this, several Courage Cup supporters were surprised that what they believed were charitable contributions were used for political purposes.<ref>Argentsinger, Amy and Roberts, Roxanne. "[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061102424_pf.html Courage Cup: Ponying Up For Whose Charity?]". ''[[Washington Post]]'', C01. June 12, 2007.</ref> Phillip Karber, a member of the board of directors for The Courage Cup who described himself as a neutral party, stated that "Ball has done a phenomenal job of getting this thing organized and getting it started. The new people did a good job of not letting it die."<ref name="polo2"/>

==Notes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
*[http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=099 Official Homepage: Assemblyman Greg Ball, 99th District of New York]
*[http://ball4ny.com Ball for Assembly Campaign Website]
*[http://www.thepresidency.org/Publications/publications.html#Fellows Center for the Study of the Presidency Fellows Publications]
*[http://www.hirelegally.com Hirelegally.com - Ball campaign website that encourages legal hiring pratices.]
*[http://vote-smart.org/bio.php?can_id=MNY90112 Project VoteSmart - Assemblymember Ball]
*[http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/11/07/ny/state/vote/ball_g/ League of Women Voters Smart Voter Guide: Greg Ball]

Gregory R. Ball

2008-03-13T20:47:13Z

DHayes: De-linking dates (and man, were there many of them...)

'''Gregory R. Ball''' (born September 16, 1977) is an [[United States|American]] business executive, retired [[United States Air Force|Air Force]] officer and member of the [[New York State Assembly]]. Ball has risen to prominence for his views on [[illegal immigration]], and has been named a Chairman of [http://www.statelegislatorsforlegalimmigration.com/ Lawmakers for Legal Immigration], an immigration reform group. He is a resident of [[Carmel, New York|Carmel]], [[New York]].

Assemblyman Ball serves as the [[Ranking member]] on the [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/Vets/20060830/ Veteran's Affairs] committee, and is also a member of the [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=13 Election Law], [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=14 Energy], [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=22 Housing], and [http://assembly.state.ny.us/comm/?sec=post&id=35 Social Services Committees].<ref>"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=099&sh=com Committee memberships]". ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> He represents [[New York's 99th assembly district]] which is comprised of the towns [[Patterson, New York|Patterson]], [[Mahopac, New York|Mahopac]], [[Carmel, New York|Carmel]], [[Southeast, New York|Southeast]], [[Putnam Lake, New York|Putnam Lake]] and [[Brewster, New York|Brewster]], in [[Putnam County, New York|Putnam County]]; [[Yorktown, New York|Yorktown]], [[Mohegan Lake, New York|Mohegan Lake]], [[Somers, New York|Somers]], and [[North Salem, New York|North Salem]] in [[Westchester County, New York|Westchester County]]; and [[Pawling (town), New York|Pawling]] in [[Dutchess County, New York|Duchess County]].

== Early career and background ==
Ball was born in [[Pawling, New York|Pawling]], [[New York]], and grew up on the Kennedy estate of Stephen and [[Jean Kennedy|Jean Kennedy-Smith]], sister of [[President of the United States|President]] [[John F. Kennedy]], where his parents were both caretakers.<ref name="feet">Klein, Benjamin. "[http://www.legislativegazette.com/read_more.php?story=1874&searchstr=Greg%20Ball Ball looks to hold people’s feet to the fire]". ''[[Legislative Gazette]]''. January 16, 2007.</ref> He attended the prestigious [[Valley Forge Military Academy and College|Valley Forge Military Academy]] before receiving an appointment to the [[United States Air Force Academy]] from Congresswoman [[Sue Kelly]].<ref name="officialbio"/> He was the first member of his family to attend college.<ref name="campaignbio">"[http://www.ball4ny.com/about.aspx About Greg]". ''[http://www.assemblymangball.com/ Ball for Assembly]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball received a [[Bachelors of Arts]] in Government in 2001.<ref name="officialbio"/> He is currently completing a Masters thesis in [[International Affairs]] at [[Georgetown University]], and was a [[fellow]] at the [[Center for the Study of the Presidency]] from 2002 to 2003.<ref>Henderson, Robert E., ed. "[http://www.thepresidency.org/Publications/fellowspublications.html A Dialogue on the Presidency with a New Generation of Leaders: Papers of the 2002-2003 Center Fellows]". Washington, DC: [http://www.thepresidency.org CSP], 2003.</ref> Ball is a board member of the Air Force Academy Association of Graduates, and is a member of several area [[Chambers of Commerce]] and business associations.<ref>"[http://www.usafa.org/about/governance/BoardCommittees.aspx Committees of the Board]". ''[http://www.usafa.org Air Force Academy Association of Graduates]''. Retrieved on February 26, 2008.</ref><ref>Greene, Mae. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18784866&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=8 Chamber of Commerce awardees]". ''[http://pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. September 7, 2007.</ref>

Ball initially interned in the [[White House]] [[ONDCP|Drug Policy Office]] during the term of President [[Bill Clinton]] and was then assigned to the [[11th Wing]] as a [[Aide-de-camp|protocol officer]] to the [[Secretary of the Air Force]] and the [[Air Force Chief of Staff]].<ref name="officialbio"/><ref>"I was honored to serve as Greg Ball’s mentor while he was in the U.S. Air Force. When Greg was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant at the United States Air Force Academy, I was honored to pin on his rank and commission him as a young officer. As Greg excelled through the ranks and was promoted to Captain, I was honored to watch Greg perform as an outstanding young officer. Greg Ball graduated from the Air Force Academy, served in the White House Drug Policy Office, lived on Capitol Hill, and served in the 11th Wing in our Nation’s capital working directly for four star generals in the Pentagon and throughout the National Capitol Region. Few Lieutenants are chosen for such a demanding position."–[[Colonel|Col.]] Joseph P. Green, [[United States Air Force|USAF (Ret.)]], [http://www.newscopy.org/2006/06/99th_balls_mili.html E-Mail to Bob Fois]. June 6, 2006.</ref> He was awarded an achievement medal for outstanding service by [[General (United States)|General]] [[John P. Jumper]] and was honorably discharged from active duty in January of 2005 at the rank of [[Captain (OF-2)|Captain]].<ref name="officialbio"/><ref>Benson, John. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15827256&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=6 Town of Pawling 2005 Year in Review]". ''[http://pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. December 29, 2005.</ref> Ball remains in the [[Individual Ready Reserve|U.S. Air Force Ready Reserve]] to this day.<ref>Benson, John. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=17343190&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=8 Community salutes military families]". ''[http://www.pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. December 20, 2006.</ref>

Upon his separation from active duty, Ball returned to New York to work for [http://www.exceedintl.com/ Exceed International], a commercial development corporation, eventually becoming an Executive Vice President in the Northeast division.<ref name="officialbio"/><ref name="exceed">"[http://www.exceedintl.com/aboutus.asp The Next Economy]". ''[http://www.exceedintl.com/ Exceed International]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> In 2006, Exceed proposed a $75 million urban renewal project for the village [[Brewster, New York|Brewster]] which would generate some $2 million a year in tax revenue for the town.<ref name="exceed1">"[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=16351907&BRD=1708&PAG=461&dept_id=72445&rfi=8 Plans call for $75 million urban renewal project of village's downtown]". ''[http://www.putnamcountycourier.com Putnam County Courier]''. March 24, 2006.</ref> Village Mayor John Degnan noted that "All of the infrastructure work recently completed by defining our identity within the watershed has paid off. Brewster finds itself in a situation where people are eagerly interested in working with the village in partnership to see our village revitalized".<ref name="exceed1"/>

==Political career==

===2006 election===
Following controversy involving New York State Assemblyman [[Will Stephens]], Ball announced his candidacy for State Assembly as a [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] and stated he would attempt to unseat the incumbent in a primary in 2005.<ref name="stephens1">{{

Cite news
|url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161094,00.html
|publisher=''[[Associated Press]]''
|author=Wagenseil, Paul
|title=Politician Tells Voters They’re Idiots
|date=June 30, 2005

}}</ref> Stephens' family had held the seat nearly continuously for eighty years: his grandfather, [[D. Mallory Stephens]], represented the district from 1926 to 1952; his father, Willis Stephens Sr., held the seat from 1952 to 1982; and Stephens himself served from 1994 to 2006.<ref>"[http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/stephens.html Index to Politicians: Stephens]". ''[http://politicalgraveyard.com The Political Graveyard]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball received over $110,000 in campaign contributions for the race.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/07/17/gregs-been-spending/ Greg’s been spending]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. July 13, 2006.</ref><ref>"[http://www.elections.state.ny.us/plsql_browser/efs_summary_page?comid_in=A18887&rdate_in=15-JUL-2006&reportid_in=K&eyear_in=2006 New Yorkers on the Ball. 2006 July Periodic Report Summary Page]". ''[http://www.elections.state.ny.us/ New York State Board of Elections]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> He was placed on the primary ballot by the signature of over 1800 petitioners.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/07/11/balls-in-or-at-least-his-paperwork-is/ Ball’s in or at least his paperwork is]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. July 11, 2006.</ref>

At times Ball's campaign was noted for its unorthodoxy, including hiring a man in a chicken suit to follow around the incumbent after Stephens refused to debate him.<ref name="chicken">Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/05/31/the-chicken-suit-has-been-mothballed-sort-of/ The chicken suit has been mothballed, sort of]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. May 31, 2006.</ref> Ball again garnered attention at an event in August of 2006 where he carried trash bags to a press conference and drew attention to Stephens, who also served as the legal counsel to the town of Southeast, New York, for having accepted $9,355 from Waste Hauling CEO, convicted [[felon]] and reputed mob boss [[James Galante]], who was later awarded a 1.5 million dollar no-bid garbage contract by the town board on Stephens' recommendation.<ref name="stephens2">{{

Cite news
|url= http://ncnlocal.com/archives/archives_2006/8-23-06/topstory.htm
|publisher= ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''
|author=Barron, Sam
|title=Ball Fires at Will
|date=August 23, 2006

}}</ref> He was joined at this event by his eventual opponent in the general election, [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratc]] Ken Harper.<ref name="stephens2"/> Both Ball and Harper referred to the State Legislature as "dysfunctional" during their campaigns.<ref>"[http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/11/07/ny/state/race/nyasm099/questions.html Candidates Answer Questions on the Issues]". ''[[League of Women Voters]]''. Retrieved February 28, 2007.</ref>

On September 12, 2006, in the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] Primary for New York's 99th District, Ball defeated Stephens in a landslide with 70.4% (5,165 votes) to 29.6% (2,176 votes) for Stephens, the lowest vote total for any incumbent running for reelection to the State Assembly that day.<ref>Lopriore, Danny. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1203 Ball Rolls]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. September 13, 2006.</ref><ref name="stephens3">{{

Cite news
|url= http://www.ny1.com/ny/Election/2006primary/index.html?page_name=assembly
|publisher=''[[NY1|NY1 News]]''
|title=Primary 2006
|date=September 2006

}}</ref> Stephens claimed he had been the victim of a negative campaign, citing mailings that were distributed calling him a 'country-club liberal' and hilighting his close relationship with Assembly Speaker [[Sheldon Silver]].<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/08/10/strange-bedfellows/ Strange bedfellows]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. August 10, 2006.</ref> However, Stephens himself drew criticism when he refused to repudiate a letter about challenger Greg Ball which falsely claimed Mr. Ball had received a dishonorable discharge from the United States Air Force.<ref>Fois, Bob. "[http://www.newscopy.org/2006/05/more_on_99th_ch.html More On 99th: Cheap Shots On Military]". ''[http://www.newscopy.org News Copy]''. May 25, 2006.</ref><ref name="five">{{Cite news
|url= http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060913/NEWS02/609130362/1020/NEWS04
|publisher=''[[The Journal News]]''
|title=Ball Defeats incumbent Stephens for GOP Line in Assembly Race
|date=September 2006}}</ref><ref>Fois, Bob. "[http://www.newscopy.org/2006/06/99th_balls_mili.html 99th: Ball's military record assailed]". ''[http://www.newscopy.org News Copy]''. June 29, 2006.</ref> Ball did not dispute that he ran hard for his seat, knocking on 10,000 doors prior to the primary.<ref name="nyt1"/>

Due to New York's [[electoral fusion]] system, the Assemblyman had vowed to remain in the race on the [[Conservative Party of New York|Conservative]] and [[Independence Party of New York|Independence]] lines.<ref>Wilbur, Martin. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1392 Stephens drops out of race against Ball to pursue bench]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. December 10, 2006.</ref> Ultimately, Stephens decided to withdraw from the race altogether, instead taking a nomination for Supreme Court Justice in Queens, in order to allow Ball ballot access on the Independence and Conservative lines.<ref>{{Cite news
|url= http://www.newscopy.org/2006/09/99th_assembly_d.html
|publisher=''[http://www.newscopy.org News Copy]''
|title=99th Assembly District Race - Now the Fun
|date=September 14, 2006}}</ref> Although Stephens attempted to have his named removed from the ballot, Ken Harper, the Democratic nominee, sued the State Board of Elections claiming that Stephens had filed a certificate declining his nomination eight days too late.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/10/27/stephens-stays-off-ballot/ Stephens stays off ballot]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. October 27, 2006.</ref> The [[New York Court of Appeals]] eventually ruled that Stephens name should remain on the ballot.<ref>"[http://www.loislaw.com/ogpc/login.htp?WSRet=12&dockey=19892277@NYCASE&OLDURL=/gpc/index.htp HARPER v. NY STATE BD. OF ELECTIONS, 34 A.D.3d 919 (3d Dept 2006) No. 501448]". ''[[New York Court of Appeals|New York Appellate Division Reports]]''. November 2, 2006.</ref>

Despite Stephens name remaining on the ballot, Ball went on to win a plurality of votes in the general election on November 6, 2006.<ref name="election1"/><ref>Lopriore, Danny. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1576 Republican survives Democrat wave to win]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. November 22, 2006.</ref> He was also buoyed by endorsements from the [[Fraternal Order of Police]], [[Putnam County, New York|Putnam County]] [[Sheriff]] [[Donald Smith]] and [[Duchess County, New York|Duchess County]] [[Sheriff]] Butch Anderson prior to the election.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/10/30/sheriffs-got-their-man/ Sherrifs got their man]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. October 30, 2006.</ref> His upset victory earned him the title of "Newsmaker of the Year" from one local publication and he also shared a front-page cover ''[[The Journal News]]'' with fellow upset winer [[John Hall (New York)|John Hall]] the day after election day.<ref>Stone, Adam. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=1701 Greg Ball, John Hall]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. December 30, 2006.</ref>

===First term (2007- )===
Ball has stated that "since my election victory, we have made extraordinary progress by elevating the debate on tough issues like taxes, illegal immigration and dysfunction in Albany."<ref name="ruledout"/> He was sworn into office on January 8, 2007.<ref>Kramer, Catherine. "[http://www.legislativegazette.com/read_more.php?story=1851&searchstr=Greg%20Ball Democrats don’t have monopoly on reform]". ''[[Legislative Gazette]]''. January 8, 2007.</ref> The first time Ball [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAojIFQczLA rose to speak in the Assembly chamber], he called the legislature "dysfunctional", and withstood boos from his colleagues.<ref>{{cite episode
| title = Joint Legislative Session
| url = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAojIFQczLA
| series = [[New York State Assembly]]
| network = [http://www.senate.state.ny.us/senatehomepage.nsf/SenNetTV?OpenForm SenNet TV]
| airdate = 2007-02-07
}}</ref><ref>Gallagher, Jay. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/03/06/different-tune-from-freshman-putnam-lawmaker/ Different tune from freshman Putnam lawmaker]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. March 6, 2007.</ref> He was unhappy because lawmakers voted to elect a colleague, [[Thomas DiNapoli]] as the new State Comptroller, disregarding the recommendations of a bipartisan panel appointed by [[Governor of New York|Governor]] [[Eliot Spitzer]] consisting of former state Comptrollers who suggested three separate finalists and had not found DiNapoli to be qualified for the job.<ref name="gregballtruereformer">"[http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29551972_ITM The true reformers: The 56 state legislators who refused to support Thomas DiNapoli for comptroller constitute an honor roll]". ''[[Albany Times-Union]]''. February 9, 2007.</ref><ref>Cooper, Michael. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/nyregion/08comptroller.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1170997200&en=f63b13cba91f4851&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin" Legislators Pick a Comptroller, Defying Spitzer]". ''[[New York Times]]''. February 8, 2007.</ref> The next day, Governor Spitzer called Ball to express support for his sentiments.<ref name="eliotphone">Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/02/09/eliots-on-the-phone/ Eliot's on the phone]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 9, 2007.</ref> Ball stated that "It was not easy getting up as the new guy and standing up to tell a group of people what they don’t want to hear" but his speech became so popular that soon dozens of reporters began calling, he appeared on [[Fox News]], excerpts from the floor speech popped up on numerous political blogs, his campaign web site received so many visits that its server crashed, and, a [[YouTube]] video of his remarks was ranked 80th among news videos the day it was uploaded.<ref name="nyt1">Confessore, Nicholas. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/nyregion/10assemblyman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all Scolding Peers, Legislator Draws Notice]". ''[[New York Times]]''. February 10, 2007.</ref> Although the remarks were contentious, they echoed a fifty-six page study from the nonpartisan [[New York University School of Law|New York University School of Law's]] [[Brennan Center for Justice]], which referred to the legislature as "the least deliberative and most dysfunctional in the nation".<ref>Creelan, Jeremy and Moulton, Laura. "[http://brennan.3cdn.net/1f4d5e4fa546eaa9cd_fxm6iyde5.pdf The New York State Legislative Process: An evaluation and blueprint for reform]". ''[[New York University School of Law]] [[Brennan Center for Justice]]''. Retrieved on February 28, 2008.</ref>

Ball again joined Spitzer, this time calling for property tax reform, and proposed an [[Inflation-indexed bond|inflation-indexed]] cap on spending and school and [[property tax]] increases known as the "New York State Property Taxpayers Protection Act" similar to the measure adopted by [[Massachusettes]] and fourteen other states.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2008/01/10/ball-on-the-governors-address/ Ball on the Governors Address]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. January 10, 2008.</ref><ref>Lucas, Ashley. "[http://www.legislativegazette.com/read_more.php?story=2564&searchstr=Greg%20Ball Assembly GOP hears residents on taxing issues]". ''[[Legislative Gazette]]''. June 18, 2007.</ref><ref>Barron, Sam. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=2364 School tax reform gains steam]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. May 30, 2007.</ref> Ball has also proposed measures to cap or eliminate the [[excise tax|state sales tax on gasoline]].<ref name="greenstock"/> He has voted dozens of times against any bill that proposes tax increases, including opposition a measure to raise the Putnam County sales tax by half a percent from 3.5% to 4% that was supported by [[State Senator]] [[Vincent Leibell]], a fellow local legislator.<ref>Matthews, Cara. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/06/21/raging-against-the-machine/ Raging against the machine]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. June 21, 2007.</ref> Ball was also dismayed when asked by county legislators to carry a bill to [[Albany, New York|Albany]] requesting a sales tax of 8.375%, which County Executive [[Robert Bondi]], a fellow Republican, claimed was necessary to ward off a projected 66% property tax increase.<ref name="taxcrisis1">Elan, Susan. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/04/24/ball-calls-putnam-budget-crisis-forum/ Ball calls Putnam budget crisis forum]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. April 24, 2007.</ref> Ball felt that the County legislature could have eliminated more "[[Pork-barrel spending|pork]]" from the county budget.<ref name="taxcrisis1"/> Ball later joined with a [[Westchester County Board of Legislators|county legislator]] in calling on Bondi to resign, citing his "incompetence and stubborness" in proposing a budget with a 40% increase in the tax levy.<ref>Boisi, Patrick. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=2882 Bondi defends 40 percent tax increase, Ball calls for his resignation]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. September 12, 2007.</ref><ref name="resignnow">Anderson, Liz. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/09/07/ball-to-bondi-resign-now/ Ball to Bondi: Resign now]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. September 7, 2007.</ref>

Ball pledged to deliver an [[Empire Zone]] to Putnam County during his campaign, and this became a reality in February of 2008.<ref>"[http://www.assemblymangball.com/BlogEntry.aspx?entryID=73 Empire Zone comes to Putnam County]". ''[http://ball4ny.com Ball for Assembly]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref><ref>"[http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/PC_EZ-08Feb08.html State approves Putnam County Empire Zone]". ''[http://midhusonnews.com Mid-Hudson News]''. February 8, 2008.</ref> Advantages of an Empire Zone include offering up to 100-percent state subsidy of a business' real estate taxes for up to 10 years, state tax credits up to $3,500 for five years for each new employee, a waiver of sales tax on certain business purchases and sales tax credits for contributions to [[501c3]] non-profit groups.<ref>Gross, Eric. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19289190&BRD=1708&PAG=461&dept_id=72445&rfi=6 Empire Zone becomes reality in Putnam County]". ''[http://www.putnamcountycourier.com Putnam County Courier]''. February 14, 2008.</ref> Ball has also delivered dozens of grants for organizations throughout the 99th Assembly District, including the [[American Red Cross]].<ref>"[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=3580 Ball provides $10,000 to American Red Cross emergency preparedness program]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. February 13, 2008.</ref><ref name="vol1iss3">"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/member_files/099/20070926a/ A Community News Letter: Pawling]", vol 1., Issue 3. ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. October 2007.</ref>

As ranking member of the Veterans Affairs Committee, Ball announced legislation expanding the eligibility for veterans to receive tax exemption benefits, including the exemption of real property owned by certain disabled veterans from property taxation.<ref name="vol1iss3"/> Ball also authored the bill to create a tuition remission program for veterans, offering them free tuition at both [[SUNY]] and [[CUNY]] undergraduate and graduate institutions.<ref>"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A08532 Bill Summary - A08532]". ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Although the first bill did not make it out of committee, after Governor Spitzer called on the Assembly to pass such a measure, Ball reintroduced the legislation and has gained thirty-one cosponsors.<ref>"[http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A09701 Bill Summary - A09701]". ''[[New York State Assembly]]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> State Senator Vinnie Leibell, whose Senate district encompasses the 99th Assembly District, announced the Senate would begin working to pass a similar measure.<ref>"[http://senatorvincentleibell.com/40/news/07-03-01/making_college_education_more_affordable.aspx Making college education more affordable]". ''[http://senatorvincentleibell.com New York State Senate]''. March 1, 2007. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Currently, the State of New York [http://www.hesc.com Higher Education Services Corporation] only offers tuition awards of $1000 per semester for military service.<ref>"[http://www.hesc.com/content.nsf/SFC/2/Veterans_Tuition_Awards Veterans Tuition Awards]". ''[http://www.hesc.com New York State Higher Education Services Corporation].'' Retrieved on February 25, 2008.</ref>

His support for pro-agricultural legislation, including creation of measures to establish a $30 million Dairy Assistance Program, as well as providing financial assistance to counties for farmland protection and for the construction of greenmarkets, among others, earned him an award from the [http://www.nyfb.org/ New York Farm Bureau].<ref>"[http://www.nyfb.org/nyfbnews/2007/pr091107.htm New York Farm Bureau names 'Circle of Friends' in the State Legislature]". [http://www.nyfb.org/ New York Farm Bureau]. September 11, 2007. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball was also named as the [[National Rifle Association|New York State Rifle & Pistol Association]] "Assemblyman of the Year" for his dedication toward advocating for outdoor sports and sportsmen’s rights.<ref name="vol1iss3"/> He has also been involved in the fight to keep [[Pepsi Bottling Group]] in his district, after the company, which is [[Westchester County, New York|Westchester County's]] second-largest employer announced it was considering relocating out of his district due to the tax burden it faces.<ref>Dumas, Bob. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=3488 Officials scramble to keep Pepsi in Somers]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. January 23, 2008.</ref><ref name="pepsi1">Driscoll, Eugene. "[http://www.newstimes.com/ci_8249208?source=most_emailed Danbury trying to woo Pepsi]". ''[[Danbury News-Times]]''. February 13, 2008.</ref><ref>According to "[http://www.nystu.org/issues-facts.cfm Facts & Figures]" from the ''[[National Taxpayers Union|New York State Taxpayers Union]]'', New York's corporate tax structure is composed of a flat rate of 7.5% on all corporate income. Among states levying corporate income taxes, New York's rate ranks 21st highest. In 2004, New York's corporate tax collections were $106 per capita and ranked 14th highest nationally. New York also ranks 50th (worst) in the non-profit Tax Foundation's State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales and gross receipts taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on wealth, including residential and commercial property.</ref> He told reporters that "Westchester County has become a nightmare for not only business owners, but property owners, because of the tax burden", but that he was "cautiously optimistic" they would remain in their [[Somers, New York]] headquarters.<ref name="pepsi1"/>

According to ''[[The Journal News]]'', one key to Ball's success was that his campaign identified the concern local voters cared most about: illegal immigration.<ref name="west1">West, Debra. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070812/OPINION/708120332/1151 The Greg Ball effect: An anti-illegal alien strategy takes root and thrives]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. August 12, 2007.</ref> He was joined by former [[INS]] agents in a rally protesting a proposed work shelter for illegal immigrations in the village of Brewster.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/06/26/just-say-no/ Just say no]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. June 26, 2007.</ref> Ball made illegal immigration a focal point of his bid for office.<ref name="feet"/> In October of 2007, he strongly criticized [[Eliot_spitzer#Controversy_over_driver.27s_licenses_for_illegal_immigrants|Governor Eliot Spitzer's plan to give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants]].<ref>Blain, Glenn. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/10/01/assembly-gop-takes-aim-at-spitzer-license-plan/ Assembly GOP takes aim at Spitzer license plan]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. October 1, 2007.</ref><ref>Barron, Sam. "[http://www.northcountynews.com/Apps/FullSize.aspx?articleid=2995 Ball strikes back, threatens to sue Governor Spitzer over drivers license policy]". ''[http://www.northcountynews.com North County News]''. October 3, 2007.</ref> An oft-quoted line from his campaign fliers was that "Illegal Immigration is Illegal".<ref>Applebome, Peter. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/nyregion/11towns.html?n=Top/News/New%20York%20and%20Region/Columns/Our%20Towns&pagewanted=all When an Election Becomes a Forum on Immigration]". ''[[New York Times]]''. November 11, 2007.</ref><ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007712130403 Assemblyman Ball discusses illegal immigration and public safety]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 13, 2007.</ref> He was named "Albany's most ardent supporter of legal immigration" when he was appointed State Chairman of the national immigration reform group [http://www.statelegislatorsforlegalimmigration.com/ State Legislators for Legal Immigration].<ref>"[http://www.assemblymangball.com/BlogEntry.aspx?entryID=83 Ball Named States Chairman of National Legal Immigration Group]". ''[http://www.assemblymanball.com Ball for Assembly]''. Retrieved on February 24, 2008.</ref><ref>Rae, Leah. "[http://immigration.lohudblogs.com/2008/02/14/greg-ball-joins-national-lawmakers-against-alien-invasion/ Greg Ball joins national lawmakers against alien ‘invasion’]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 14, 2008.</ref> Yet Ball declined to speak at an anti illegal-immigration forum in [[Danbury, Connecticut|Danbury]], [[Connecticut]] sponsored by [http://www.uscfile.org/ United States Citizens for Immigration Law Enforcement], calling the group's rhetoric "over the top."<ref>Homayonpour, Marietta. "[http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:W2k7P7nKUDEJ:www.newstimes.com/ci_7848096%3Fsource%25253Dmost_emailed.26978592730A3B8C7F471EACE0DA4EF2.html+site:newstimes.com+%22Immigration+Law+Enforcement%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us Should Danbury partner with ICE?]". ''[[Danbury News-Times]]''. December 31, 2007.</ref><ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/04/30/not-visiting-connecticut/ Not visiting Connecticut]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. April 30, 2007.</ref>

In February of 2008, Ball hosted a summit on the [[Immigration and Nationality Act Section 287(g)]] program for law enforcement and elected officials from New York, Connecticut and New Jersey, co-hosted by co-hosted by Jim Pendergraph, U.S. [[Immigration and Customs Enforcement]] (ICE) Executive Director from the United States Department of Homeland Security Office of State and Local Coordination.<ref name="ice1"/><ref name="summit">Driscoll, Eugene. "[http://www.newstimes.com/ci_8249912?source=most_viewed N.Y. lawmaker wants ICE in jails]". ''[[Danbury News-Times]]''. February 13, 2008.</ref> He talked at length about the measure [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVq_9x_FNLE during a Fox News interview] with [[Neil Cavuto]].<ref>{{cite episode
| title = Assemblyman Ball on Neil Cavuto
| url = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVq_9x_FNLE
| series = [[Your World with Neil Cavuto]]
| network = ''[[Fox News]]''
| airdate = 2008-01-01
}}</ref> The 287(g) partnership, which includes training on how to avoid racial profiling, allows local law enforcement officers to work as ICE agents and file immigration violation charges, so that an illegal immigrant charged with crime in would have deportation papers filed immediately.<ref name="ice2">Hughes, Jennifer. "[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/24immigwe.html?_r=1&ref=nyregionspecial2&oref=slogin Police Seek Help in Criminal Deportation]". ''[[New York Times]]''. February 24, 2008.</ref> Ball believes that correctional officers should receive immigration law enforcement training under the 287(g) program, and has promised to work with the ICE branch of the [[Department of Homeland Security]] by signing up counties which have their own correctional facility for the training.<ref name="ice1">Gross, Eric. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19317567&BRD=1708&PAG=461&dept_id=72445&rfi=6 Ball criticizes immigration law enforcement training for local police forces]". ''[http://www.putnamcountycourier.com Putnam County Courier]''. February 21, 2008.</ref> Ball announced another regional summit that would be held in April of 2008.<ref>Rae, Leah. "[http://lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080210/NEWS01/802100352#pluckcomments Brewster, Suffern pursue immigration enforcement role]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 10, 2008.</ref>

He has noted that illegal immigrants are not always automatically [[deported]] despite facing criminal charges.<ref name="ice2"/> Ball has opposed similar programs enrolling local law enforcement officials in the training, stating that "most local police agencies don't have the resources or the time to dedicate themselves to immigration law enforcement" and that starting a jail house program where names of suspected illegal aliens would be screened by a federal database would be more effective.<ref name="ice1"/> Ball said that "the key in this is that you need a jail, because you can wait weeks to determine someone's immigration status and then trigger the deportation procedure."<ref name="summit"/>

Ball has worked to promote businesses that hire legal immigrant laborers, and has begun to create a database for usage on his campaign website.<ref name="hirelegally">Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/04/25/move-over-yellow-pages/ Move over, Yellow Pages]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. April 25, 2007.</ref> His campaign headquarters in [[Pawling, New York]] may have been targeted over the contentious issue, and was vandalized with [[swastikas]] in October of 2006, although the person or persons responsible misspelled the word "Fascist" twice.<ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2006/11/01/definitely-a-trick/ Definitely a trick]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. November 1, 2006.</ref>

The Ball campaign has also focused on promoting energy conservation, calling fuel prices "out of control" and vowing to establish tax credits for usage and production of [[alternative fuels]], establish a state energy planning board, and cut fuel costs by eliminating the state sales tax on gasoline and alternative fuels.<ref>Berg, Weston. "[http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18225626&BRD=1707&PAG=461&dept_id=72297&rfi=8 Village Hall rally asks Congress to Step it Up]". ''[http://www.pawlingnewschronicle.com Pawling News-Chronicle]''. April 20, 2007.</ref>

Ball was referred to as "one of the rising stars in the Republican Party"<ref>Blain, Glenn. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/04/could-it-be-ball-vs-hall-in-2008/ Could it be Ball vs. Hall in 2008?]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 4, 2007.</ref> during speculation that he would run against freshman Congressman [[John Hall (New York)|John Hall]] in 2008, although he later ruled out a challenge against Hall.<ref name="ruledout">Risinit, Mike. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071231/NEWS01/712310377 Carmel assemblyman says he won't run for Congress in '08]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 31, 2007.</ref><ref>Risinit, Mike. "[http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071217/NEWS04/712170350 Ball may run for House seat]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 17, 2007.</ref><ref>Blain, Glenn. "[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/31/ball-not-running-for-congress/ Ball not running for Congress]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. December 31, 2007.</ref>

===Courage Cup controversy===
In January of 2007, Ball became involved in a dispute with Andrea Rodgers and Keri Ann Meslar, who ran a charity event known as the "Courage Cup." Ball founded the charity in 2004, prior to his first run for office. His former friends resisted his attempt to retake a leadership role in 2007, and Ball countered that he was the Courage Cup's rightful owner and that the two women stole his intellectual property.<ref name="polo1">Argentsinger, Amy and Roberts, Roxanne. "[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/05/AR2007020501739.html Courage Cup Organizers Cross Polo Mallets]". ''[[Washington Post]]'', C03. February 6, 2007.</ref> Ball had been stationed at [[Bolling Air Force Base]] in [[Washington D.C.]], where he organized the first Courage Cup in 2004, raising nearly $8,000 for the [[Philadelphia, Pennsylvania|Philadelphia]], [[Pennsylvania]] based [[Work to Ride ]] program and other organizations.<ref name="polo2">"[http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2007/06/12/polo-anyone/ Assemblyman Ball trading shots in D.C. charity polo event debate]". ''[[The Journal News]]''. February 2, 2007</ref>

A ''[[Washington Post]]'' article from June of 2007 implied that one of the event directors offered tickets at difference price level with proceeds going to a [[Political Action Committee]] which would later support Ball, although Ball's campaign stated it had nothing to do with the fund raising and that the destination of profits from the event were clearly stated on the purchase form. Despite this, several Courage Cup supporters were surprised that what they believed were charitable contributions were used for political purposes.<ref>Argentsinger, Amy and Roberts, Roxanne. "[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061102424_pf.html Courage Cup: Ponying Up For Whose Charity?]". ''[[Washington Post]]'', C01. June 12, 2007.</ref> Phillip Karber, a member of the board of directors for The Courage Cup who described himself as a neutral party, stated that "Ball has done a phenomenal job of getting this thing organized and getting it started. The new people did a good job of not letting it die."<ref name="polo2"/>

==Notes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
*[http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=099 Official Homepage: Assemblyman Greg Ball, 99th District of New York]
*[http://ball4ny.com Ball for Assembly Campaign Website]
*[http://www.thepresidency.org/Publications/publications.html#Fellows Center for the Study of the Presidency Fellows Publications]
*[http://www.hirelegally.com Hirelegally.com - Ball campaign website that encourages legal hiring pratices.]
*[http://vote-smart.org/bio.php?can_id=MNY90112 Project VoteSmart - Assemblymember Ball]
*[http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/11/07/ny/state/vote/ball_g/ League of Women Voters Smart Voter Guide: Greg Ball]

Holodomor denial

2008-03-13T20:32:30Z

DHayes: De-linking dates

'''Holodomor Denial ''' is the act of stating that the [[Holodomor]], the disastrous famine of 1932-1933 in Eastern Ukraine (then known as the [[Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic]], in the [[Soviet Union]]), never took place.<ref>[http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2002/280214.shtml Famine denial The Ukrainian Weekly, July 14, 2002, No. 28, Vol. LXX]</ref><ref>''

Initially he Soviet government dismissed all references to the famine as anti-Soviet propaganda. Denial of the famine declined after the Communist Party lost power and the Soviet empire disintegrated'' @ [http://books.google.com/books?ei=_WZ3R9CwDZnmtQO3xeXQCg&id=c-8YAAAAIAAJ&dq=Holodomor+Denial&q=%22Denial+of+the+famine%22&pgis=1#search Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity By Dinah Shelton; Page 1055] ISBN 0028658485</ref><ref>After over half a century of denial, in January 1990 the [[Communist Party of Ukraine]] adopted a special resolution admitting that the Ukrainian Famine had indeed occurred. [http://books.google.com/books?id=5Ef8Hrx8Cd0C&pg Century of Genocide: Critical Essays and Eyewitness Accounts - Page 93] ISBN 0415944295</ref>

The Holodomor was denied immediately and repeatedly by Soviet authorities (starting with President [[Mikhail Kalinin]] and Foreign Minister [[Maxim Litvinov]]), and this denial continued unabated, well into the 1980s.<ref name="Conquest">[[Robert Conquest]], ''The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine'' [[Oxford University Press]] (1987), ISBN 0195051807, p. 308. [http://books.google.com/books?id=Bp31GmfH-6YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=harvest+of+sorrow&sig=ONivvVYlMPCPY0pb41NXw-AL8dE#PPA320,M1]</ref>

The Soviet stance was supported by Soviet-friendly journalists in the [[Western world|West]], such as [[Walter Duranty]] and [[Louis Fischer]]. Today, Holodomor denial continues to exist among leftist fringe writers and pseudo-scholars. It is not supported by serious academic scholars.

In 1997 the Soviet Union finally aknowleged the Holodomor. In November 2006, the [[Verkhovna Rada|Ukrainian Parliament]] passed a bill branding the Holodomor as an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people.<ref>Jan Maksymiuk, [http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/11/03ac02a4-6e3a-481b-8932-fafd4c13abab.html "Ukraine: Parliament Recognizes Soviet-Era Famine As Genocide"], ''[[Radio Free Europe|RFE/RL]]'', November 29, 2006</ref> In November 2007, the [[government of Ukraine]] tabled a law which would make public statements of both Holodomor and [[Holocaust denial]] illegal acts in Ukraine.

==Soviet Union==
===Initial cover-up during the famine===

The Soviet leadership undertook extensive efforts to prevent the spread of any information about the Holodomor. State communications about the famine were kept a [[top secret]]. [[Joseph Stalin]] and [[Vyacheslav Molotov]] sent a telegram to the party and provincial police chiefs requiring that Ukrainian peasants going north to [[Russia]] to seek bread were to be stopped.<ref>[[Robert Conquest]] ''The Dragons of Expectation. Reality and Delusion in the Course of History'', W.W. Norton and Company (2004), ISBN 0-393-05933-2, page 102.</ref> The telegram blamed the influx of peasants on [[Poland|Polish]] agents, who allegedly wanted to start a famine scare. [[State Political Directorate|OGPU]] chairman [[Genrikh Yagoda]] reported that over two hundred thousands peasants had been sent back. The secret correspondence included a letter sent by a party official from [[Dnipropetrovsk]] where he warned that "there will be no one left" alive to sow and ensure grain production, unless some amount of grain will not be taken. Molotov replied that the needs of the state, as "defined in party resolutions", are more important than the lives of people.<ref>[[Robert Conquest]] ''The Dragons of Expectation. Reality and Delusion in the Course of History'', W.W. Norton and Company (2004), ISBN 0-393-05933-2, page 102.</ref>

Various acts were committed to conceal the true number of dead people. Out of 9,472 only 3,997 corpses were registered in the Kyiv Medical Inspectorate. Similar cover-ups took place everywhere.<ref name="reflections"/>

===Early years===

While the famine was taking place, [[Soviet Union|Soviet]] authorities denied its existence. It was a criminal offense to mention the famine, punishable with a five-year term in the [[Gulag]] [[labor camp]]s; placing the blame on the authorities led to a death sentence.<ref name="reflections">[[Robert Conquest]] ''Reflections on a Ravaged Century'' (2000) ISBN 0-393-04818-7, p. 96</ref>

As a result the population growth failed to meet the expected targets set by the Communist party. When this became evident from the population statistics data, three successive heads of the [[Goskomstat|Soviet Central Statistical Administration]] were executed, while others were arrested.<ref>Lisa Shymko, [http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12306 "The Politics of Genocide"], ''[[The American Spectator]]'', November 14 2007</ref>

The [[Soviet Census (1937)|1937 Soviet Census]] was thought to be exemplary due to its apparent thoroughness and near-perfect organization. Government officials in charge of the census received state awards immediately upon the census conclusion. When it became apparent that the final population figures were significantly lower than expected, the results were classified and the census organizers were repressed. The new [[Soviet Census (1939)|1939 census]] was organized in such a way as to have certainly inflated data on population numbers. It showed a population figure of 170.6 million people, manipulated so as to match the numbers stated by [[Joseph Stalin]] in his report to the 18th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party. No other censuses were conducted until 1959.

=== Official Holodomor denial by Soviet officials ===

Soviet President [[Mikhail Kalinin]] responded to Western offers of food by telling of “political cheats who offer to help the starving Ukraine,” and commented that, “only the most decadent classes are capable of producing such cynical elements."<ref>[http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3513136.html How Liberals Funked It]</ref><ref name="reflections"/>

In an interview with [[Gareth Jones (journalist)|Gareth Jones]] in March 1933, Soviet Foreign Minister [[Maxim Litvinov]] stated, “Well, there is no famine", and went on to say, "You must take a longer view. The present hunger is temporary. In writing books you must have a longer view. It would be difficult to describe it as hunger.”<ref name="Jones-Litvinov">[[Gareth Jones (journalist)|Gareth Jones]], [http://www.colley.co.uk/garethjones/st_patricks/litvinov_famine_denia_oldl.htm Interview with Maxim Litvinov], March 1933</ref>

On instructions from Litvinov, Boris Skvirsky, embassy counselor of the recently opened Soviet Embassy in the [[United States]], published a letter on January 3, 1934, in response to a pamphlet about the Holodomor.<ref name="Carynnyk">Marco Carynnyk, [http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1983/398325.shtml "The New York Times and the Great Famine"], ''The Ukrainian Weekly'', September 25, 1983, No. 39, Vol. LI</ref> In his letter, Skvirsky stated that the idea that the Soviet government was "deliberately killing the population of the Ukraine" "wholly grotesque." He claimed that the Ukrainian population was increasing at an annual rate of 2 percent during the preceding five years. He asserted that the death rate in Ukraine "was the lowest of that of any of the constituent republics composing the Soviet Union," concluding that it "was about 35 percent lower than the pre-war death rate of [[Russian Empire|tsarist]] days."<ref name="Mace">James E. Mace, [http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml "Collaboration in the suppression of the Ukrainian famine"] (paper delivered at a conference on "Recognition and Denial of Genocide and Mass Killing in the 20th Century", held in [[New York City]] on November 13, 1987), ''[[The Ukrainian Weekly]]'', January 10, 1988, No. 2, Vol. LVI</ref>

===The early 1980s===

In 1983 for the first time, Holodomor remembrance was co-ordinated by the Ukrainian community world wide. The [[Ukrainian diaspora]] exerted pressure on the media and various governments, including the governments of the [[United States]] and [[Canada]], to raise the issue of the Holodomor with the government of the Soviet Union. The United States created a Commission into the famine. The Soviet authorities predicted this commission would place the Soviet state responsible for the act.<ref name="symp">[http://www.cym.org/au/archives/Holodomor.pdf The Great Famine of 1932-33 - A Symposium], 22 October, 2003, pp.4-5</ref>

In an attempt to counter this, the [[Soviet government]] admitted that some peasantry died to climatic conditions mainly [[drought]].

===Glasnost and the late 1980s===

The future [[President of Ukraine]], [[Leonid Kravchuk]], was charged in 1983 with finding rainfall evidence for the 1930s famine. However, Kravchuk's inquiry into the rainfalls for the 1933-1932 period found that they were within normal parameters.<ref name="Bandera">Stephen Bandera, [http://www.homin.ca/news_view.php?category=top&news=1016&lang=en "Holodomor as a source of national unity"], ''Ukrainian Echo'', February 5, 2007</ref>

It was only during the late 1980s that the Soviet Government admitted that its agricultural policies played a direct role in the causing Holodomor. Ultimately, as President of Ukraine, Kravchuk would admit to the cover-up attempts, and support in recognizing the Holodomor as genocide.<ref name="Bandera"/>

==Contemporary denial outside of the USSR==

===Walter Duranty and ''The New York Times''===

One of the first Western Holodomor deniers was [[Walter Duranty]]. Duranty was the winner of the 1932 [[Pulitzer prize]] in journalism in the category of correspondence, for his dispatches on [[Russia]] and the working out of the [[Five-Year Plan (USSR)|Five Year Plan]].<ref>[http://duranty.pelech.org/duranty2003/pulitzer2003.pdf "Correspondence between Markian Pelech and the Board of the Pulitzer Prizes regarding Walter Duranty's 1932 Pulitzer Prize"] (December 30, 2002–April 28, 2003)</ref> While the famine was raging, he wrote in the pages of ''[[The New York Times]]'' that "Any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda," and that "There is no actual starvation or deaths from starvation but there is widespread mortality from diseases due to malnutrition."<ref>[[Arnold Beichman]], [http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/791vwuaz.asp ''Pulitzer-Winning Lies''], ''[[The Weekly Standard]]'', June 12, 2003</ref>

In his reports, Duranty downplayed the impact of food shortages in Ukraine. In private however, he told [[Eugene Lyons]] and reported to the [[United Kingdom|British]] Embassy that at least seven million had died of famine <ref> Embassy dispatch dated 30 September 1933 included the following: "According to Mr. Duranty the population of [[North Caucasus]] and the Lower [[Volga River|Volga]] had decreased in the past year by three million, and the population of Ukraine by four to five million" (cited from ''"Reflections on the ravaged century"'', p. 123)</ref>. Duranty acted more like a spokesman for the Soviet government than an independent reporter for a Western newspaper. As Duranty wrote in a dispatch from Moscow in March 1933, "Conditions are bad, but there is no famine... But—to put it brutally—you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs."<ref name="NYT">[http://www.nytco.com/company/awards/statement.html "New York Times Statement About 1932 Pulitzer Prize Awarded to Walter Duranty"]</ref>

Duranty wrote articles denying the fact that the Holodomor was taking place in Ukraine. He also wrote denunciations of those who wrote about the famine, accusing them of being reactionaries and [[anti-communism|anti-Bolshevik]] [[propaganda|propagandists]]. Duranty continued to repeat Soviet disinformation without verifying its veracity. As the ''New York Times'' notes: "Taking Soviet propaganda at face value this way was completely misleading, as talking with ordinary Russians might have revealed even at the time."<ref name="NYT"/>

In August 1933, [[Theodor Cardinal Innitzer]] of [[Vienna]] called for relief efforts, stating that the Ukrainian famine was claiming lives “likely. . . numbered. . . by the millions” and driving those still alive to [[infanticide]] and [[cannibalism]]. ''The New York Times'', August 20, 1933, reported Innitzer’s charge and published an official denial: “in the Soviet Union we have neither [[cannibalism|cannibals]] nor [[cardinal (Catholicism)|cardinals]]”. The next day, the Times added Duranty’s own denial.

[[United Kingdom|British]] journalist [[Malcolm Muggeridge]] characterized Duranty as "the greatest liar of any journalist I have met in 50 years of journalism."<ref>[[Robert Conquest]]. ''The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine'' [[Oxford University Press]] (1987), ISBN 0195051807, page 320. [http://books.google.com/books?id=Bp31GmfH-6YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=harvest+of+sorrow&sig=ONivvVYlMPCPY0pb41NXw-AL8dE#PPA320,M1]</ref>

Campaigns were launched in 1986 for the retraction of the Pulitzer Prize given to ''[[The New York Times]]''. Despite the fact that the [[Times]] admits that the fraudulent coverage led to it receiving the prize, they have refused to relinquish it.<ref>[http://duranty.pelech.org/duranty2003/pulitzer2003.pdf Correspondence between Markian Pelech and the Board of Pulitzer Prizes]</ref> The Times acknowledges that "some of Duranty's editors criticized his reporting as tendentious", and that "collectivization was the main cause of a famine that killed millions of people in Ukraine, the Soviet [[breadbasket]], in 1932 and 1933 - two years after Duranty won his prize."<ref name="NYT"/>

===Louis Fischer and ''The Nation''===

[[Louis Fischer]], an American reporter who glossed over Soviet reality had a deep ideological commitment to [[communism]] dating back to 1920. Fischer traveled to Ukraine in October and November of 1932, for ''[[The Nation]]'', and was initially alarmed at what he saw. "In the [[Poltava]], [[Vinnitsa]], [[Podolsk]] and [[Kiev]] regions, conditions will be hard," he wrote, "I think there is no starvation anywhere in Ukraine now — after all they have just gathered in the harvest but it was a bad harvest."

Initially critical of the Soviet grain procurement program because it created food problem, Fischer adopted the official Soviet government view, which blamed the problem on Ukrainian [[counter-revolutionary]] [[Nationalism|nationalist]] "[[Wrecking (Soviet crime)|wreckers]]." It seemed "whole villages" had been "contaminated" by such men, who were deported to "lumbering camps and mining areas in distant agricultural areas which are now just entering upon their pioneering stage." These steps were forced upon the [[Kremlin]], Fischer wrote, but the Soviets were, nevertheless, learning how to rule wisely.

Fischer was on a lecture tour in the United States when [[Gareth Jones (journalist)|Gareth Jones']] famine story broke. Speaking to a college audience in [[Oakland, California]], a week later, Fischer stated emphatically: "There is no starvation in [[Russia]]." He spent the spring of 1933 campaigning for American diplomatic recognition of the Soviet Union. As rumors of a famine in the USSR reached American shores, Fischer continued to vociferously deny the reports.

Fischer's article entitled "Russia's Last Hard Year," stated, "The first half of 1933 was very difficult indeed. Many people simply did not have sufficient nourishment." Fischer blamed poor weather and the refusal of peasants to harvest the grain, which then rotted in the fields. Government requisitions drained the countryside of food, he admitted, but military needs (a potential conflict with [[Japan]]) explained the need for such deadly thoroughness in grain collections.<ref name="fischer">[http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/westobservs.htm Louis Fisher], at ArtUkraine.com</ref>

Fischer maintained his general optimism about the Soviet Union through the publication of his ''Soviet Journey'' in 1935. The book devoted three pages to a discussion of the famine of 1932-1933, where he wrote of food left rotting in the fields as the result of peasants' "passive resistance." Fischer once again blamed the peasants directly for having "brought the calamity upon themselves" and stressed the positive results ensuing from Bolshevik victory in the countryside, and connected the famine to peasant action (or inaction).<ref name="fischer"/>

===Communist Party of the USA ===

The Ukrainian American community upon receiving reports of the Famine in November and December 1933 organized marches in a number of U.S. cities to protest against American recognition of a government which was starving millions of Ukrainians.<ref>[http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml Collaboration in the suppression of the Ukrainian famine]</ref><ref name="sulz">[http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/duranty42.htm Letter to Arthur Sulzberger, Jr., Publisher, NY Times]</ref> [[Communist Party USA|American Communists]] resorted to violence in an attempt to silence the Ukrainians.<ref>[http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml Collaboration in the suppression of the Ukrainian famine]</ref><ref>[http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/duranty42.htm Letter to Arthur Sulzberger, Jr., Publisher, NY Times]</ref><ref>[http://www.shevchenko.org/famine/21_27.htm Dushnyck, Walter. 50 Years Ago: The Famine Holocaust in Ukraine: Terror and Human Misery as Instruments of Russian Imperialism]</ref> On November 18, 1933, in [[New York City]], 8,000 Ukrainians marched from [[Washington Square Park, New York|Washington Square Park]] to 67th Street, while 500 Communists ran beside the parade and snatched the Ukrainians' handbills, spat on the marchers and tried to hit them.<ref>[http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml Collaboration in the suppression of the Ukrainian famine]</ref><ref>[http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/duranty42.htm Letter to Arthur Sulzberger, Jr., Publisher, NY Times]</ref> Five persons were injured.<ref>[http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml Collaboration in the suppression of the Ukrainian famine]</ref> Only the presence of 300 policemen on foot and a score on horseback leading the parade and riding along its flanks prevented serious trouble.<ref>[http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/028822.shtml Collaboration in the suppression of the Ukrainian famine]</ref><ref name="sulz">

In [[Chicago]], on December 17, 1933, several hundred Communists mounted a massed attack on the vanguard of 5,000 Ukrainian American marchers, leaving over 100 injured in what ''The New York Times'' called "the worst riot in years":

"Brick, clubs, rotten eggs and other missiles rained on the marchers from the Hermitage Avenue elevated station bridging Madison Street. The street fight which followed saw brass knuckles, blackjacks, fists and rifle butts used until a dozen squads of police restored order."<ref name="Mace"/>

=== Holodomor denial by Foreign Dignitaries visiting the USSR ===

Prominent dignitaries who visited the Soviet Union in 1934, such as [[George Bernard Shaw]] and [[H. G. Wells]], are also on record as denying the existence of the Famine in Ukraine<ref>[http://www.lib.monash.edu.au/exhibitions/communism/com107.html Stalin-Wells talk / the verbatim record and a discussion by G.B. Shaw, H.G. Wells, J.M. Keynes, E. Toller and others]</ref>.

In 1934 the British Foreign Office in the House of Lords stated that there was no evidence to support the allegations against the Soviet government regarding the Famine in Ukraine. The testimony of Sir John Maynard, a renowned famine expert who visited the Ukraine in the summer of 1933 rejected tales of famine-genocide propagated by the Ukrainians<ref>[http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html The Ukrainian famine-genocide myth]</ref>.

The height of manipulation was reached during a visit to Ukraine carried out between August 26 and September 9, 1933, by [[Prime Minister of France|French Prime Minister]] [[Edouard Herriot]], who denied accounts of the famine. The day before his arrival, all beggars, homeless children and starving people were removed from the streets. Shop windows in local stores were filled with food, but purchases were forbidden, and anyone coming too close to the stores was arrested. The streets were washed. Just like all other [[Western World|Western]] visitors, Herriot met fake "peasants," all selected Communists or Komsomol members, who showed him healthy cattle.<ref>''Reflections'', p. 122</ref> Herriot declared to the press that there was no famine in Ukraine, that he did not see any trace of it, and that this showed adversaries of the Soviet Union were spreading the rumor. "When one believes that the Ukraine is devastated by famine, allow me to shrug my shoulders," he declared. The September 13 1933 issue of ''[[Pravda]]'' was able to write that Herriot "categorically contradicted the lies of the bourgeoisie press in connection with a famine in the
USSR."<ref>[http://colley.co.uk/garethjones/ukraine2005/Etienne%20Thevein%20%20English%20translation.pdf "France, Germany and Austria Facing the famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine"]</ref>.

The lack of knowledge of this genocide was observed by English writer [[George Orwell]], who commented that "''huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of [[England|English]] [[Russophiles]]"''.<ref>George Orwell, "''Notes on Nationalism''" in "The ''Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell''" ([[London]], 1968), Vol. 3, p. 370.</ref>

Orwell clearly knew of a press cover-up about the famine as in his 1945, Proposed Preface to Animal Farm he wrote:
“…it was considered equally proper to publicize famines when they happened in India and to conceal them when they happened in the Ukraine. And if this was true before the war, the intellectual atmosphere is certainly no better now.”<ref>[http://www.colley.co.uk/garethjones/soviet_articles/farmer_jones-%20reorder.htm Was Gareth Jones's surname behind George Orwell’s naming of ‘Farmer Jones' in Animal Farm?.]</ref> For an interesting 'work-in-progress' including a discussion on the influence of the Ukrainian Famine and Holodomor denial by Duranty on Orwell's book "Animal Farm" see Nigel Colley's article [http://www.colley.co.uk/garethjones/soviet_articles/farmer_jones-%20reorder.htm Was Gareth Jones's surname behind George Orwell’s naming of ‘Farmer Jones' in Animal Farm?].

==Modern denial==
===The 50th Anniversary===

The rallying and lobbying of the Ukrainian Diaspora Community around the 50th anniversary of the Holodomor became a concern for the governing body of the Soviet Union.<ref name="symp"/> In February 1983, the [[Politburo]] of the [[Communist Party of the Soviet Union]] (CPSU) activated its counter-[[propaganda]] section to focus on the Ukrainian famine. The head of the directorate for relations with foreign countries for the CPSU, A. Merkulov, was given the task of directing [[disinformation]] to the West and contacted [[Leonid Kravchuk]], the chief idealog for the Communist Party in Ukraine. The materials were to be sent to the [[RIA Novosti|Novosti Press]] (APN) centers in the [[United States]] and [[Canada]] to demonstrate the "antidemocratic base of the Ukrainian bourgeois Nationalists, the collaboration of the [[Stepan Bandera|Banderovtsev]] and the [[Adolf Hitler|Hitlerite]] Fascists during the [[World War II|Second World War]]."<ref>ЦГАООУ. Ф.1. Оп. 25 Д. 2719. Л.27-28. Подлинник.</ref>

In preparation for the expected rise in activity associated with the 55th anniversary, the Soviet Union launched a campaign of disinformation. In [[Canada]], the [[Association of United Ukrainian Canadians]] (a pro-Communist Labor temple (Hall) movement in the Ukrainian community) published numerous articles denying the Holodomor in Ukraine in its English and Ukrainian language magazines and newspapers. Through its chain of bookstore outlets, it distributed pamphlets and materials whose point supplied to them from the counter-propaganda section of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. In 2007, correspondence and instructions from Soviet sources such as the [[Ukraina Society]] to the organization regarding the Holodomor have been made available for study by scholars.

In an open letter to [[Mikhail Gorbachov]] in August 1987, veteran dissident [[Viacheslav Chornovil]] wrote about the denial of the Holodomor by the Communist Party of the USSR, and also Western denial.<ref>[http://www.artukraine.com/historical/sovcrimes.htm "Soviet crimes remain unpunished"]</ref>
<blockquote>
"The biggest and most infamous blank spot in the Soviet history of Ukraine is the hollow silence for over 50 years about the genocide of the Ukrainian nation organized by Stalin and his henchmen ... The Great Famine of 1932-33, which took millions of human lives. In one year - 1933 - my people lost more than throughout all of World War II, which ravaged our land."
</blockquote>

===Douglas Tottle and Holodomor denial ===

In 1987 the Canadian trade-unionist and activist [[Douglas Tottle]], published the controversial book ''Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard'', where he claimed that the Holodomor was "fraudulent", and "a creation of [[Nazism|Nazi]] propagandists".<ref name="tottle">Douglas Tottle, [http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm/ "Fraud, famine, and fascism: the Ukrainian genocide myth from Hitler to Harvard"], Toronto: Progress Books, 1987. ISBN 0919396518</ref> By the author's own account, his book is only carried by 28 libraries around the world. His book, published by the Communist ''Progress Publishers'' in [[Toronto]], appeared practically at the same time Ukrainian Communist party leader [[Volodymyr Shcherbytsky]] publicly acknowledged the Holodomor, in December 1987, and the book was subsequently withdrawn from circulation.<ref>[http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2003/2003-September/021722.html link Letter from David R. Marples]</ref> Only the first two chapters of the book deal with the Famine in Ukraine. The rest is written to discredit the work done by western Scholars, to associate the Ukrainian diaspora in the West with Fascism, and to discredit the US support of Holodomore research. Nevertheless, the book is available on the internet, and continues to be cited as an "invaluable" and "important" book by groups such as the [[Stalin Society]] in [[Great Britain]], author [[Jeff Coplon]], and others.

In a review of Tottle's book in the ''[[Ukrainian Canadian Magazine]]'', published by the pro-Communist Association of United Ukrainian Canadians, [[Wilfred Szczesny]] wrote: "Members of the general public who want to know about the famine, its extent and causes, and about the motives and techniques of those who would make this tragedy into something other than what it was will find Tottle's work invaluable" (''The Ukrainian Canadian'', April 1988, p. 24).<ref name="Szcz">[http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/serbyn/ "The last stand of the Ukrainian famine-genocide deniers"]</ref>

In his book, ''Searching for place'', Lubomyr Luciuk comments: "For a particularly base example of famine-denial literature, see Tottle, ''Fraud, famine, and fascism...''".<ref>Lubomyr Luciuk, ''Searching for place: Ukrainian displaced persons, Canada, and the migration of memory'', Toronto: [[University of Toronto Press]], 2000, p. 413. ISBN 0802042457</ref> Professor [[Roman Serbyn]] a professor of history at the University of Quebec at Montreal has published an analysis and review of Tottles book which is available [http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/serbyn/ here].

===Jeff Coplon===

Tottle's book inspired a number of articles by other Holodomor deniers, such as [[Jeff Coplon]]'s article ''"In Search of a Soviet Holocaust"''.<ref name="coplon">Jeff Coplon, [http://www.chss.montclair.edu/English/furr/vv.html "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust"], ''[[The Village Voice]]'', January 12, 1988.</ref> This article not only denies the Holodomor, but also tries to associate those who continued to bring the Holodomor to the attention of the public with the [[Nazism|Nazis]], even giving quotes from [[Adolf Hitler]]'s ''[[Mein Kampf]]'' to stress this point.
<blockquote>
"Just as the Nazis used the OUN for their own ends, so has [[Ronald Reagan|Reagan]] exploited the famine, from his purple-prosed commemoration of "this callous act" to his backing of the Mace commission. ... But if people could be convinced that Communism is worse than fascism; that [[Joseph Stalin|Stalin]] was an insane monster, even worse than Hitler; that the seven million died in more unspeakable agony than the six million ... One cannot appease an [[Evil empire|Evil Empire]], after all.<ref name="conlon" />
</blockquote>
Coplon also penned the article ''"Rewriting History - How Ukrainian nationalists imposed their doctored history on High School Students"'' heavily relying on Tottle's publication with his additional comments regarding the inclusion the Holodomor as one of a number of subjects included in the curriculum for social studies classes in New York. In the article published in the magazine "CAPITAL Region" March 1988, he wrote: <blockquote>
''"The losers, of course, are the New York state schoolchildren, who will absorb this disinformation between algebra and chemistry - and may even be asked to parrot the fraud for a higher score on their regents exam."''
<ref>[http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/coplonrewriting88.pdf Rewriting History - How Ukrainian nationalists imposed their doctored history on High School Students]</ref>
</blockquote>

Other similar writings include an article by [[Wilfred Szczesny]] ("Fraud, Famine and Fascism", ''The Ukrainian Canadian'', April 1988); an unsigned article ("The Ukrainian Famine: Fact or Fiction"), which appeared in the ''[[McGill Daily]]'', November 22, 1988,<ref name="Szcz" /> and Challenge-Desafio's ("The Hoax of the Man-Made Ukraine Famine of 1932-33"),<ref>[http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html The Hoax of the Man-Made Ukraine Famine of 1932-33]</ref> which appeared in a newspaper of the [[Progressive Labor Party (United States)|Progressive Labor Party]] in 1987.<ref>[http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html "The Hoax of the Man-Made Ukraine Famine of 1932-33"], ''Challenge-Desafio'', February 25, 1987.</ref>

===Stephan Merl===

In 1989, [[Stephan Merl]] (a professor at [[Bielefeld University]]) published "Entfachte Stalin die Hungersnot von 1932-1933 zur Auslöschung des ukrainischen Nationalismus?".<ref>Stephan Merl, "Entfachte Stalin die Hungersnot von 1932-1933 zur Auslöschung des ukrainischen Nationalismus?", ''Jahrbücher für Geschichte Osteuropas'' 37 (1989), vol. 4, p. 569-590</ref> This publication, once again relying heavily on Tottle, describes the work of [[James Mace]] and [[Robert Conquest]] as part of a campaign by Ukrainian nationalists to discredit the Soviet Union and pillory liberal journalists like Walter Duranty.<ref>[http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2003/2003-September/021722.html Letters of David Marples]</ref>

===Mario Sousa===

In 1998 [[Mario Sousa]] published "''Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union''"<ref>[http://www.mariosousa.se/LiesconcerningthehistoryoftheSovietUnion.html Lies concerning the history of the Soviet Union]</ref>.

Sousa's arguments against the Holodomor are based on his interpretation that the early Holodomor campaign was started by the Nazi's and was later taken up and funded by Ukrainian refugees who he states were Nazi collaborators. Sousa continues that Holodomor scholarship was later supported by the CIA during the [[Cold War]] specifically aimed at slandering and discrediting the Soviet government.

===The Stalin Society===

Holodomor denial continues into the 21st century with the publication of "''The Ukrainian famine-genocide myth''", a pamphlet penned by prominent British physician [[John Puntis]] and published in July 2002 by the [[Stalin Society]]. The Stalin Society itself has been described as "''tiny, aging and schism-ridden''"<ref>[http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article120991.ece "Stalin apologists drink to the memory of Uncle Joe"], ''[[The Independent]]'', 2 March 2003</ref>. Once again heavily relying on Tottle, facts are reinterpreted with sources questioned, numbers questioned and the whole history of the famine made to look like the continuation of the Cold War<ref>[http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html#After The Ukrainian famine-genocide myth]</ref>.

==Holodomor denial in University courses==

In 2004 Toronto University offered a history course on "The Soviet Union and the Stalin Question" by M. Rodsky. Rather than starting from a neutral point of view, Rodsky took a revisionist version of Stalin and the history of the Soviet Union. In his third lecture in the series he approached "The Famine in Ukraine: What is the Truth?". The reading list consisted exclusively of materials that denied the existence of the Holodomor<ref>[http://individual.utoronto.ca/mrodden/study/ssustudy.html The Soviet Union and the Stalin Question]</ref>.

* In Search of a SOVIET HOLOCAUST (short reading)[http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/vv.html Here]
* The Hoax of the Man-Made Ukraine Famine of 1932-33 (longer reading)[http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html here]
* Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union by Mario Sousa (scroll down and read 'The myth concerning the famine in the Ukraine')
* Maoist Internationalist Movement's Review of the [http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/bookstore/commie.html The Black Book of Communism]'Black Book of Communism' (scroll down and read 'The Ukrainian famine')
* Fraud Famine & Fascism by Douglas Tottle, International Publishers (Can be purchased from the Communist Party of Canada, 190A Danforth Ave.)

==Symposia about Holodomor denial==

In November 2007, an International Conference entitled ''The Ukrainian Holodomor and the Denial of Genocides'' was organized by the [[Guarini Institute]], and held at [[John Cabot University]], in [[Italy]]. The Ukrainian Ambassador, [[Heorhiy Cheriavskyi]], addressed the conference and spoke about the importance of international education and recognition of the Ukrainian Holodomor. [[Federigo Argentieri]], from the Guarini Institute, read the paper: “''Ideology and Diplomacy: How the Ukrainian Famine Was—and Still is—Denied''.” In his presentation, Argentieri introduced the history of denial of the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33. Conflicting reports on the events in 1933 highlighted the willingness of the [[great power|Great Powers]] to ignore the plain facts witnessed by British government officials in the Soviet Union. At the time, political and economic interests took precedence over internal human rights matters. Argentieri noted that today, the famine remains virtually ignored, even in academic circles in the West.<ref>[http://intranet.johncabot.edu/myjcu/public_site/news.aspx?cat=News "The Ukranian Holodomor and the Denial of Genocides"]</ref>

==Holodomor denial and Ukrainian law==

On November 28 2006, Ukraine's parliament, the [[Verkhovna Rada]], passed a law recognizing the 1932–1933 Holodomor as an act of genocide against the Ukrainian people. The voting figures were as follows: supporting the bill were [[BYuT]]—118 deputies, [[NSNU]]—79 deputies, [[Socialist Party of Ukraine|Socialists]]—30 deputies, 4 independent deputies, and the [[Party of Regions]]—2 deputies (200 deputies did not cast a vote). The [[Communist Party of Ukraine]] voted against the bill. In all, 233 deputies supported the bill—a minimum of 226 votes were required for it to be passed.<ref>[http://www.day.kiev.ua/179841/ "Holodomor and Holocaust denial to be a criminal offense"], 3 April 2007</ref><ref>[http://www.lucorg.com/luc/news.php?id=2241 "What the Verkhovna Rada actually passed"], February 28, 2007</ref>

A draft law "On Amendments to the Criminal and the Procedural Criminal Codes of Ukraine" was submitted by [[President of Ukraine|President]] [[Viktor Yushchenko]] for consideration by the [[Verkhovna Rada|Ukrainian Parliament]]. The draft law envisages prosecution for public denial of the Holodomor Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine as a fact of genocide of the Ukrainian people, and of [[the Holocaust]] as the fact of genocide of the [[Jew]]ish people. The draft law foresees that public denial as well as production and dissemination of materials denying the above shall be punished by a fine of 100 to 300 untaxed minimum salaries, or imprisonment of up to two years.<ref>[http://www.nrcu.gov.ua/index.php?id=148&listid=56782 "Public denial of Holodomor Famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine as genocide of Ukrainian people to be prosecuted"], December 12, 2007</ref>

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==Sources==
*Andreopoulos, George J., Ed. ''Genocide: conceptual and historical dimensions'', Philadelphia: [[University of Pennsylvania Press]], 1994. ISBN 0812232496
*Colorosa, Barbara, ''Extraordinary evil: a brief history of genocide'', New York: Penguin Group, 2007. ISBN 0670066044
*Conquest, Robert, ''Reflections on a Ravaged Century'' (2000) ISBN 0-393-04818-7
*Conquest, Robert, ''The Dragons of Expectation. Reality and Delusion in the Course of History'', W.W. Norton and Company, 2004. ISBN 0-393-05933-2
*New Internationalist. Justice After Genocide. December (385). 2005.
*Paris, Erna. ''Long shadows: truth, lies, and history'', New York: [[Bloomsbury Publishing|Bloomsbury]], 2001. ISBN 1582342105
*Springer, Jane, ''Genocide'', Toronto: Groundwood Books, 2006. ISBN 0888996810
*Tauger, Mark B., [http://dx.doi.org/10.2307/2500600 ''The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933''], [[Slavic Review]], Vol. 50, No. 1 (Spring, 1991), pp. 70-89
*[[James Waller|Waller, James]], ''Becoming evil: how ordinary people commit genocide and mass killing'', Oxford: [[Oxford University Press]], 2002. ISBN 0195148681
*Crowl, James William, ''Angels in Stalin's Paradise. Western Reporters in Soviet Russia, 1917 to 1937. A case study of Louis Fisher and Walter Duranty'', [[University Press of America]], 1982. ISBN 0819121851
*Taylor, Sally J., ''Stalin's apologist: Walter Duranty, the New York Times's man in Moscow'', Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990. ISBN 0195057007

==Video resources==
* Harvest of Despair. (1983), produced by the Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Center.

[[Category:Ukraine]]
[[Category:Genocide]]

Sanford Ransdell

2008-03-13T20:26:46Z

DHayes: De-linking dates

'''Sanford Wesley Ransdell''' (September 11, 1781 - July 30, 1854) was an early American pioneer and soldier in the [[Battle of Tippecanoe]].<ref>''The Battle of Tippecanoe'', Read Beard, 1897</ref><ref>''The Battle of Tippecanoe'', Alfred Pirtle, J. P. Morton and Company, Louisville, Kentucky, 1900</ref> Ransdell was born in [[Orange County, Virginia]] on September 11, 1781. He was a descendant of Edward Ransdell who was a signer of the historic Leedstown Resolutions a document written up in defiance of the [[Stamp Act]].

== Indiana Pioneer ==
By 1803, Ransdell was living in [[Mercer County, Kentucky|Mercer Co., Kentucky]]. Soon he emigrated to the frontier of the [[Indiana Territory]] where he was an early pioneer. He met and subsequently married, around 1808, Rhoda Sampson,<ref> The Mattoon Weekly Gazette, Mattoon, Illinois, July 14, 1893</ref> the daughter of William and Sarah (Coleman) Sampson in [[Harrison County, Indiana]]. William Sampson had served in the American Revolution with the [[Virginia]] troops. Their first child Frances Laura was born on March 15, 1809.<ref>''The History of Arkansas'', 1913, pages 1570-1571</ref>

== Wartime service ==
On September 6, 1811<ref>''The Battle of Tippecanoe'', Alfred Pirtle, J. P. Morton and Company, Louisville, Kentucky, 1900</ref> Ransdell enlisted as a mounted rifleman in a regiment known as the "Yellow Jackets."

At quarter to five in the morning on November 7, 1811<ref>''[[John Tipton|The Tipton Papers]]'', Volume 1, 1809-1827 Compiled by Glen A. Blackburn, 1942 Indiana Historical Bureau, Indianapolis, pp.74-83</ref> Ransdell’s regiment of eighty men, under the command of [[Spier Spencer]], took part in the Battle of Tippecanoe at Tippecanoe Creek. This company occupied the right flank<ref>[http://tippecanoe.tripod.com/nay.html Judge Isaac Naylor's Account]</ref> where according to [[William Henry Harrison|General William Henry Harrison]] the fighting was, "excessively severe," and that the men of Ransdell's company, "bravely maintained their posts." Despite "having suffered so severely, and having originally maintained their posts."<ref>''Official Dispatch'', Wiliam Henry Harrison, November 18, 1811</ref>

During the fierce fighting two horses were shot dead from under Ransdell and his left thumb was shot off.<ref>''History of Vigo and Parke Counties, Together with Historic Notes on the Wabash Valley'', H. W. Beckwith, 1880 pp. 449-450</ref> The captain of the regiment, [[Spier Spencer]], the first lieutenant Richard McMahan and the second lieutenant Thomas Berry were all killed in action.<ref>[http://tippecanoe.tripod.com/nay.html Judge Isaac Naylor's Account]</ref> Ransdell was eventually mustered out at Corydon on November 24, 1811.<ref>''The Battle of Tippecanoe'', Alfred Pirtle, J. P. Morton and Company, Louisville, Kentucky, 1900</ref>

In a message sent to the U. S. House of Representatives, General Harrison had this to say about Ransdell's company, ''"With equal pride and pleasure, then, do I pronounce that, notwithstanding the regular troops behaved as well as men ever did, many of the militia companies were in no wise inferior to them. Of this number were the mounted riflemen, commanded by Captain Spencer. To them was committed the charge of defending the right flank of the army. That it could not have been committed to better hands, their keeping their ground (indeed gaining upon the enemy) for an hour and a half with unequal arms against superior numbers, and amid a carnage that might have made veterans tremble, is sufficient evidence." ''

A year later Ransdell participated in the [[War of 1812]] and served as a first sergeant in the 5th Regiment Indiana Militia in Captain Jacob Zenor's Company from October 20 to November 18, 1812. For his actions on November 7, 1811 and his wartime service he would be awarded forty acres of land.

== Noah Beauchamp Affair ==
The Ransdells moved to [[Floyd County, Indiana]]<ref> The Mattoon Weekly Gazette, Mattoon, Illinois, July 14, 1893</ref> by 1820 and again later to [[Vigo County, Indiana]]. On March 15, 1827, their daughter Frances married Noah Beauchamp, Jr., the son of the blacksmith [[Noah Beauchamp]].<ref>''The History of Arkansas'', 1913, pages 1570-1571</ref><ref>''History of Vigo and Parke Counties, Together with Historic Notes on the Wabash Valley'', H. W. Beckwith, 1880 pp. 449-450</ref>

In 1840, Noah Beauchamp, Sr. stabbed his neighbor George Mickeberry to death over a dispute.<ref>Wabash Courier, September 10, 1842</ref><ref>Wabash Express, September 28, 1842</ref><ref>''History of Vigo County, Indiana'', S. B. Nelson & Co., Chicago, 1891</ref> This famous incident culminated in a prolonged manhunt and trial that dragged both Ransdell and Rhoda into the witness box.<ref>''Noah Beauchamp Indictment'', Parke County, Indiana, 1841</ref>

Ransdell witnessed the coroner's inquest regarding Mickeberry’s death and was called to testify for the defense. Rhoda was also called to testify at the trial to verify that Mrs. Mickeberry had changed her story. Mrs. Mickeberry had previously stated various details to Rhoda and Elizabeth implying that if it had not been for George Mickeberry’s daughter Delilah Decker, by a previous marriage, the killing would not have taken place.<ref>''Noah Beauchamp Indictment'', Parke County, Indiana, 1841</ref>

Ultimately, their testimony in favor of their daughter’s father-in-law proved fruitless: Noah Beauchamp, Sr., was hanged on December 30, 1842.<ref>''History of Vigo County, Indiana'', S. B. Nelson & Co., Chicago, 1891</ref> The family continued to live in Vigo County with the notorious incident hanging about them for over a decade before eventually moving away to Cumberland County, Illinois.<ref>[http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:sicd32EaL1cJ:specials.tribstar.com/columns/Historical/2002/December15.html+%22Noah+Beauchamp%22+trial+hanging&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5 Tribune Star Online, "Lynchings create somber yuletide", Mike McCormick, December 15, 2002]</ref>

== Last Years ==
The Randells had a total of nine children the last one Daniel was born in 1835 and would serve as a private in Company A. 7th Regiment of Illinois during the Civil War.

In 1854 both Ransdell and Rhoda died from an epidemic. Ransdell died in Cumberland County, Illinois on July 30, 1854. The two were buried side by side at Berry Cemetery in [[Toledo, Illinois]].

== References ==
<div class="references-small" style="-moz-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
<references/>
</div>

== External links ==
* [http://www.wvec.k12.in.us/battle/spencer.html Roll of Captain Spier Spencer’s Company of Mounted Rifleman of the Indiana Militia]
* [http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Ransdell&GSfn=Sanford&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=12288020& Find a Grave]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Ransdell, Sanford}}

[[Category:biographies]]

Category talk:Days of the year

2008-03-13T20:24:30Z

DHayes: Mass delete or...?

== Mass delete or...? ==

Apparently, it had been [[User talk:Jason#Please_stop_creating_.22date.22_articles|decided]] not to wikilink dates and not to have articles on dates. Any decision what to do with the existing ones? I just noticed they exist because "December 30" popped up in the Wanted Pages list. --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 16:24, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

Leonard Feeney

2008-03-13T20:16:22Z

DHayes: Since "Christian Identity" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #10 on the Wanted List.)

'''Leonard Feeney''' (1897-1978) was a [[Roman Catholicism|Roman Catholic]] priest, [[Anti-Semitism|anti-Semite]] and founder of several [[:Category:Hate groups|hate groups]]. He was born in Lynn, [[Massachusetts]] on 15 February 1897. In 1914 he became a [[Jesuit]] Novitiate of Saint Andrew in [[New York]], with whom he studied for 14 years before taking religious vows as a son of Saint Ignatius, being ordained a priest on 20 June 1928. In the 1930s and early 1940s Fr. Feeney had attracted a large number of supporters, who were known as ''Feeneyites''.

==Activities and hate groups==
Fr. Feeney founded and led the '''Saint Benedict Center''', which was located across the street from [[Harvard University]]. He also formed a religious association known as the '''Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary'''. Feeney and his feeneyites preached every Sunday at Boston Common, but due to the inflammatory nature and "[[Jew]] baiting" common to his oratories, the police were usually required to be on hand to protect him and his followers from the crowd. Fr. Feeney is remembered for preferring to use the term "kike" when talking of Jewish people. Fr. Feeney taught that Jews were descended from [[Satan]].

Fr. Feeney regularly warned the students at Harvard "not to become like their secular and atheistic professors, who were responsible for [inventions] such as the atom bomb," although he found this missionary work very discouraging and once said: "How can I convince Catholic students that they are losing their faith at Harvard when my own brothers in religion, (i.e. Jesuits) are getting degrees there?" He also accused the Catholic Boston College of having "lost the faith and teaching heresy, namely that salvation could be obtained outside the One True Church".

==The Point==
He regularly published a magazine called ''The Point'', notable for its anti-semitism and including articles such as:
*"Jewish Invasion of Our Country - Our Culture Under Siege"
*"Our Lady of Fatima Warned Us About Jewish Communists"
*"The Rejected People of Holy Scripture: Why the Jews Fear the Bible"
*"The Judaising of Christians by Jews - Tactics of the Church's Leading Enemies"
*"A Sure Defense Against the Jews - What Our Catholic Bishops Can Do for Us"
*"An Unholy People in the Holy Land - The Actions of the Jews"

==Legacy==
Fr. Feeney and his Roman Catholic followers believed that "the Jews" were responsible for all of society's ills: religious, political, social, and cultural. Despite his death, his organizations still flourish in the [[United States]] and routinely spread a "gospel" that "''the Jews corporately murdered Christ,''" that "''the Jews all bear the guilt of the murder of Christ''," and that "''the Jews are all cursed for their deicide.''" They also promote [[The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion]].

==External Links==
Archives of "The Point" at the [http://www.archive.org/ Internet Archive]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1952 1952]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1953 1953]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1954 1954]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1955 1955]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1956 1956]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1957 1957]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1958 1958]
*[http://www.archive.org/details/ThePoint1959 1958]

Seduction of Eve

2008-03-13T20:16:15Z

DHayes: Since "Christian Identity" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #10 on the Wanted List.)

The '''seduction of Eve''' is seen as sexual by two religious movements: Christian Identity in the US and the [[Unification Church]], which originated in Korea.

Some Bible interpreters regard Genesis as suggesting that angels had sex with earthly women:

{{quotebox|"The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose" (Gen.6:2). [http://www.triumphpro.com/cain_and_abel_and_the_seduction_of_eve.htm]}}

This interpretation assumes that "sons of God" refers to [[angel]]s, while "daughters of men" refers to human females.

The Unification Church cites Jude 1:6-7 as evidence that angels "sinned" via "fornication":

*And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
*Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to [[fornication]], and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ([http://kingjbible.com/jude/1.htm King James Version])

These views are considered unorthodox within mainstream Christian thought. The points at issue are:
#Can angels sin? Have any angels ever sinned?
#How can an angel have sexual congress with an earthly woman?
#Would this relationship result in pregnancy?
#Does this have anything to do with the [[fall of man]]?

White supremacy

2008-03-13T20:16:10Z

DHayes: Since "Christian Identity" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #10 on the Wanted List.)

'''White supremacy''' is an ideology which asserts that [[white people]] (such as [[Aryans]]) are somehow "better" than people of other races. These feelings can range from mild (personal bigotry) to extreme (advocating political and social dominance for white people). White supremacism is often associated with [[Nazism]].

White supremacism as a movement in the United States was most recently closely associated with four groups, [[Aryan Nations]], the [[National Alliance]], the [[Church of the Creator]], and [[White Aryan Resistance]], as well as many smaller, often short-lived groups. All four of these groups peaked in the 1980s-90s and are now in disarray. Aryan Nations, in particular, attempted to unite disparate elements of white supremacism around the Christian Identity belief system. Another group, the [[Ku Klux Klan]], which has existed in some form since [[Reconstruction]], is also closely associated with white supremacism.

[[category:Civil Rights]]
[[category:political movements]]

Aryan Nations

2008-03-13T20:16:00Z

DHayes: Since "Christian Identity" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #10 on the Wanted List.)

'''Aryan Nations''' is an international neo-[[Nazism|Nazi]] organization, focused on [[white supremacy]].

Originally, Aryan Nations, whose full name was the "Church of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nations)", was headquartered in Hayden Lake, [[Idaho]] and led by [[Richard G. Butler]]. It was founded in the 1970s. The [[IRS]] revoked Aryan Nations' tax-exempt status as a church early on. Aryan Nations preached a mutant version of theology known as Christian Identity, which is rejected as a [[heresy]] by almost all mainstream Christians.

The group got a great deal of negative [[media]] attention from 1983-1985 due to the activities of a violent group called "Bruders Schweigen" or "The Order" led by [[Robert Jay Matthews]], which was involved in a series of armored car [[robbery]], [[counterfeit]]ing, [[bomb]]ings, and the [[murder]] of a [[Denver]] radio talk show host. Most of the members of The Order had been previously involved with Aryan Nations. Matthews died in a shootout with the [[FBI]] on Whidbey Island, Washington, while several other members of The Order were convicted and are in prison.

During the 1980s, Richard Butler and Aryan Nations attempted to bring together disparate elements of white supremacism with annual "Aryan World Congress" events held on the group's 20 acre property in Hayden Lake. The groups attending included [[Ku Klux Klan]] and [[skinheads]].

Aryan Nations lost a 2001 [[lawsuit]] and were forced to sell their Hayden Lake property to pay the debt, this was followed by the death of Richard Butler in 2004. After these two events, what was left of Aryan Nations fractured with a few small groups in other locations using the name.

==References==
* Kaplan, Jeffrey. ''Radical Religion In America''. Syracuse University Press, 1997.

[[Category:Hate groups]]

Template talk:User koine

2008-03-13T20:11:06Z

DHayes:

Template talk:User koine

2008-03-13T20:10:53Z

DHayes: Need sysop attention here: Please remove/change a link and solve yet another Wanted Page!

This template links to an empy, non-existent category and produces a Wanted Page (#290) right now. Any sysop up to the incredibly hard task of removing that link or changing it to point at [[Greek language]] or [[Koine]]? --[[User:DHayes|DHayes]] 16:10, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

User:Iduan

2008-03-13T20:06:18Z

DHayes: Since "Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #91 on the Wanted List.)

__NOEDITSECTION__
{| width="100%" style="background:transparent;"
|-
|width="75%" valign="top" style="border-right: 2px solid gray"|
{|width="100%" valign="top" cellpadding="0"
|-
|valign="top"|'''I''' am Issac Duan of Arlington, [[Virginia]] - a [[suburb]] right next to the [[District of Columbia]]. 
<div class="horizontal">
__TOC__
</div>
|
{|class="wikitable" style="float:right; width:500px"
|+<big>Favorite Users</big>
|-
!colspan="2"|(not ordered)
|-
|style="text-align:center"|<div class="horizontal">
*[[User:Philip J. Rayment]]
*[[User:CPAdmin1]]
*[[User:DanH]]
*[[User:Geo.plrd]]

*[[User:Fox]]
*[[User:Aschlafly]]
*[[User:Crocoite]]
*[[User:BethanyS]]
</div>
|}
|}
==Conservapedia==
I joined Conservapedia in late April 2007 and started seriously editing in August.
===Edits===
I have 2090 mainspace edits, 388 template edits, 243 Conservapedia edits, 61 image edits, and a combined 875 talk edits (106 of which went towards template:standardization), plus a few other things (like help edits) and in total I have made 4366 edits.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://faleg.org/cgi-bin/conservapedia/editcounter_Tool1?username=Iduan|title=User:Iduan|date=2007-08-21|accessdate=2007-08-21|format=HTML|language=English|author=Interiot|work=Interiot's edit counter}}</ref> I have also blocked/unblocked over 100 users.<ref>http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Iduan</ref>
====Contest====
In four contest, I have compiled 2336 points. My record is in the ongoing [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] - where I compiled 1131.
====Pages====
A few of the many articles I've really worked on are [[Cuba]], [[Marquis de Lafayette]], [[Waves]], [[Eddystone Lighthouse]], [[XYZ Affair]], [[Congressional Page]], [[O.J. Simpson]] and [[HTML table formatting]]. I've also done 25 universities, including [[University of Maryland|UMD]], [[Syracuse University|Syracuse]], [[University of Arizona|Arizona]], [[University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill|UNC]], [[University of Connecticut|UConn]], [[Pennsylvania State University|Penn St.]], [[Johns Hopkins University|Johns Hopkins]], [[Howard University|Howard]] and [[Northern Illinois University|NIU]]. Beyond that I like to spread my edits around - and I also vary it. Sometimes I'll be watching the recent changes and I'll do drastic clean up to a low quality article I see, a lot of other times I'll be clicking "Random page" - and fixing up simple aspects like spelling or wikilinks.

While I have created or radically changed a few pages - as you can see on the right, many of my page edits are minor. I go through each random page and make small changes to encourage consistency - but primarily because if we just create a bunch of articles and then have a lot of crappy ones that are completely out of wack - then we'll turn into Wikipedia. To some extent, this is also why I work in the template space.

====Templates====
I have created a few templates, the ones I'm most prod of are: [[Template:Template]], [[Template:Baseball|Baseball]], [[Template:USState]], [[Template:NBA]], [[Template:NFLDraft]] and [[Template:University|University]] (which I put on about 123 articles so far. I also reworded the long, much-hated [[Template:Stub]] and then created with TK a larger redesign towards the goal of standardization. Most of those templates were relatively minor, but the one I'd like to talk about is Citations missing. The goal of that template was to provide a more clean/elegant version of the uncited templates, which in my opinion were over the top. Key differences are viewable through the color scheme - as citations missing keeps the background color of articles, and is separated merely by a border. Also, as far as technical aspects go, Citations missing has a few more links, some of which depend on what page it's put on.

===Goals===
My current goal is to become a sysop. I patrol for vandalism and therefore I need to delete articles fairly frequently, and I also edit templates - most of which are protected - so therefore, without rights, the question is what use am I here? You can vote for me at ((Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan)) - I appreciate all and any support.
==References==
{{reflist}}
|valign="top"|
{|width="100%"
|
==Created/Vastly Reworked Pages==
|-
!valign="top" width="50%"|Articles & Templates
|-
|valign="top"|<div class="horizontal">
*[[1993 NFL Draft]]
*[[1998 NFL Draft]]
*[[2003 NFL Draft]]
*[[A Model of Christian Charity]]
*[[The Oscars|Academy Awards]]
*[[Age of consent]]
*[[American University]]
*[[Arizona State University]]
*[[Auburn University]]
*[[Book]]
*[[Brandeis University]]
*[[College of William and Mary]]
*[[Congressional Page]]
*[[Cuba]]
*[[DePaul University]]
*[[Discrimination]]
*[[Drunk]]
*[[East Carolina University]]
*[[Eddystone Lighthouse]]
*[[Emerson College]]
*[[Fiction]]
*[[Fordham University]]
*[[French Spacing]]
*[[Gang]]
*[[George Mason University]]
*[[The George Washington University]]
*[[Georgia Institute of Technology]]
*[[Gregorian Calendar]]
*[[High School]]
*[[Howard University]]
*[[HTML table formatting]]
*[[Indiana University]]
*[[Ithaca College]]
*[[January 1]]
*[[Johns Hopkins University]]
*[[Literacy]]
*[[Louis Dembitz Brandeis]]
*[[Loyola University Chicago]]
*[[Marquis de Lafayette]]
*[[Marshall University]]
*[[Michigan State University]]
*[[Middle School]]
*[[North Carolina State University]]
*[[Northern Illinois University]]
*[[Northeastern University]]
*[[Northwestern University]]
*[[O.J. Simpson]]
*[[Old Dominion University]]
*[[Pennsylvania State University]]
*[[Pepperdine University]]
*[[Purdue University|Purdue]]
*[[Quinnipiac University]]
*[[Scripting language]]
*[[Southern Methodist University]]
*[[Syracuse University]]
*[[Super Bowl XLII]]
*[[Temple University]]
*[[Texas Tech University]]
*[[University of Arizona]]
*[[University of Cincinnati]]
*[[University of Connecticut]]
*[[University of Delaware]]
*[[University of Houston]]
*[[University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign]]
*[[University of Maryland]]
*[[University of Massachusetts]]
*[[University of Memphis]]
*[[University of Missouri]]
*[[University of New Hampshire]]
*[[University of North Carolina system]]
*[[University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill]]
*[[University of Oregon]]
*[[University of Rhode Island]]
*[[University of Rochester]]
*[[University of South Florida]]
*[[University of Vermont]]
*[[U2]]
*[[Villanova University]]
*[[Virginia Commonwealth University]]
*[[Wake Forest University]]
*[[Washington State University]]
*[[Waves]]
*[[Xavier University]]
*[[XYZ Affair‎]]
*[[Template:/doc]]
*[[Template:AstroObjects]]
*[[‎Template:Baseball]]
*[[‎Template:CPCN]]
*[[Template:CPGram]]
*[[‎Template:CPLock]]
*[[‎Template:CPPOV]]
*[[Template:CPTemp]]
*[[‎Template:Citations missing]]
*[[‎Template:Cite news]]
*[[Template:Cite web]]
*[[‎Template:Expand]]
*[[Buffalo Bills/Roster]]
*[[Cleveland Browns/Roster]]
*[[Miami Dolphins/Roster]]
*[[Indianapolis Colts/Roster]]
*[[Philadelphia Eagles/Roster]]
*[[Seattle Seahawks/Roster]]
*[[‎Template:Music]]
*[[‎Template:Plainlink]]
*[[‎Template:SolarSystem]]
*[[‎Template:Template]]
*[[Template:Renaissance Terms]]
*[[Template:History Terms]]
*[[Template:Combo]]
*[[Template:University]]
*[[Template:NFLDraft]]
*[[Template:NBA]]
*[[Template:MLBTeam]]
*[[Template:USState]]
*[[Template:SuperBowl]]
</div>

|}
|}

User talk:Iduan/Archive6

2008-03-13T20:06:15Z

DHayes: Since "Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #91 on the Wanted List.)

== T&R ==
Those were the cast bios that I took from their website. I paraphrased them a bit. --[[User:Baptist500|Baptist500]] 17:05, 23 January 2008 (EST)

==Opinion==
Please don't take my opinion that redirects are highly over valued as an insult. Thanks for taking the time to formalize. [[User:StephenW|StephenW]] 23:47, 6 January 2008 (EST)

==Rules==
So will you be creating rules for me as a judge as well or should I just sort-a figure problems, assign points, add up the team's points at the end of the day? Thanks! --[[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 09:31, 10 January 2008 (EST)
:Based on what was said on contest three - I would think that all you would need to do is solve conflicts (making rulings if necessary) and make sure everyone is scoring in a tidy way (because if there is a conflict, and all people have is a bunch of random diffs, it'll be hard to deal with). I mean really you're a great enough editor that everyone trusts you to act when you see fit - and that's what I would encourage you to do--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:30, 10 January 2008 (EST)

==Distorting Facts?==
As per [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:PoggeJustin this], the user only changes He to He/she and Christianity to religion. With respect to the first case, this is a question based around the Constitution, and given that the Constitution does not disallow female presidents then the possibility of such must be recognised, even if it hasn't yet happened. As for the second, the "separation of Church and state" is not limited to Christianity (it is used in many countries with respect to Islam and Hinduism) and although the question appears in an American Government Exam it is not worded to apply only to America, and hence the phrase "censor religion" is indeed more appropriate to "censor Christianity". So while the user should be encouraged to discuss his edits on the talk page before editing course content, they are by no means "distorting the truth" or a blockable offense as a result [[User:TheGuy|TheGuy]] 00:19, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:Just to clarify, the specific wording of the question is "Which of the following '''must''' be true about every President of the United States? ", not "Which of the following '''has''' been true about every President of the United States?" There is no implication of the past tense, so whether or not every President has been male is irrelevant, because the question is about the limitations imposed by the Constitution for all past, present and future Presidents, and there is nothing in it which says a female cannot be President. [[User:TheGuy|TheGuy]] 00:21, 12 January 2008 (EST)

==Thumb==

Thanks for adding the "thumb" attribute. I have had trouble remembering that it's needed if you want a [[help:caption|caption]] to appear. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 11:30, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Oh no problem - yeah the thumb part can be difficult to remember--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:35, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Recruiting ==

May I suggest asking any past contributors of note in prior contests to join the current one? The more people we have actively involved, the better -- especially for those who have shown a past interest. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 14:25, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Good idea LT! I just asked a few people--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:48, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Whom to pick next ==

Give me advice on whom to pick next!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:38, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Hmm, I would say that Learn Together and Sharon are the best people out there - if you can I would say snatch them up ASAP. If both of them are taken, GregLarson could be an interesting choice - he just came back recently so he might be looking to re-establish himself.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:44, 12 January 2008 (EST)

==Start==
Hate to sound pedantic, but 12am? Do you mean midnight Saturday, or 24 hours later midnight Sunday? [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 18:49, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Uhmm... well, how bout this: in about three hours--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:51, 12 January 2008 (EST)

==User:RingWraith==

Actually, I agree with your block as well - it was going from a little misunderstanding to a little ridiculous. Are you sure about increasing the block time though? I dunno, I thought one day would probably be enough for cooling off, and Aschlafly didn't seem ''too'' bothered by it... plus, RingWraith has made some decent contributions as well (for example, helping Karajou out with [[Lord of the Rings]] stuff). Ultimately I'll leave it to your judgement as well, but I guess I thought that just one day would be... nice, I suppose. :)

:Oh, and I almost forgot! Thanks for reminding/inviting me to the new Contest, I almost missed that. I wasn't a huge contributor last time but it was nice to be remembered, so I went and joined again. ^_^ [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 20:50, 12 January 2008 (EST)
::I increased the block time primarily because I saw that he had already been blocked once for a parody, but also because at what he was saying month blocks are not uncommon, given that he was attacking another user. And besides, one more day will only calm him down more. Glad to have you aboard in the contest--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:52, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:::Fair enough; it's true that many blocks are much worse (just be careful about interpreting previous incidents though - I remember I was once blocked because I made a mistake editing and someone wrote "troll" in the reversion comment!) [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 21:02, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Awesome start!!! ==

Awesome start!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:04, 13 January 2008 (EST)

: Let's leave it open to new contestants, right? Maybe a new star will enter on Monday or Tuesday even!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:10, 13 January 2008 (EST)
::Yeah that sounds great! Hey just out of curiosity - have there really been 90-some-odd Echews? They're causing me some frustration now as they keep popping up!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:11, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Iduan,can you please give me a link to the page with the acceptable WantedPages? Thanks! [[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]] 13:11, 13 January 2008 (EST)
:Sure Luke! ((Conservapedia:Contest4/Wanted))--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 13:12, 13 January 2008 (EST)

==Template==

Yes, thanks. You should pick up a couple of points for [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Template:Points&diff=prev&oldid=370176 that]! :-) --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 16:35, 13 January 2008 (EST)

== Dear Iduan ==

(I meant to submit this last night but editing was turned off....) Sorry, dude. I know ''exactly'' how you feel. After I was denied edit rights (despite having block rights and the backing of at least one other sysop) I was really mad as well. Then, while I was asked to make substantial contributions others ''were'' promoted without having made any edits, and I even noticed some with edit privileges who were blocked for being vandals (and still continue to have night edit rights, incidentally). I, too, love editing at Conservapedia but this was a harsh and undeserved slap in the face. Frankly, the only reason I didn't quit right then in there is because I still had three weeks left of winter break and editing CP was a great way to fill it...

I hope you eventually decide to come back -- better yet, I hope you get your edit rights (and by virtue of your own merits, not based on which team you're on in the contest) and that you come back willingly. I'll miss you, and with you gone, I'll actually have to make sure I format all my refs correctly! [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:47, 14 January 2008 (EST)

:Hey, just wanted to offer my condolences as well. You were always a great editor (I can't imagine how much work you put into those templates) and you were also fair and cool all the time. I'm sorry that Conservapedia didn't work out for you. I suppose you could always look for another wiki to fill your time, but of course Conservapedia is unique and once you've poured so much effort and time into a project it's not the same... Here's still hoping you'll be invited back with all the rights you deserve.

:P.S. Good work organizing the latest contest, hope you at least get to leave on a good note. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 12:09, 14 January 2008 (EST)
Thanks both of you - it's not so much as I'm mad as I'm just unbearably frustrated. But hey, I'm not leaving quite yet - I'm going to let the contest finish out (hey, if the team I'm on wins, I can leave on a high note I guess!)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:33, 14 January 2008 (EST)

== Cheers! ==

Thanks for the help dude!

[[User: MetcalfeM]]

== Leaving? ==

I think you should reconsider. You have some good points [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:Iduan&diff=prev&oldid=370721 here] but do you really have to leave? --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] 22:28, 16 January 2008 (EST)
:You know right now, frankly I'm half way. The points I made there aren't why I'm thinking about leaving - it's just the frustration that is the byproduct of those points. But you know, until just today it hadn't really hit me how much I'd miss CP, that's why I actually took that message down (and it will at least temporarily stay down), because I felt like pretending that everything was normal, and ultimately I'm not sure what direction I'll take. I'm not going to lie, the fact that I was ((Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan|nominated for sysop)) does play a role in it - because even if I fail, it shows that I've made some progress, which should lessen the frustration (it's not as though I'm staying if I make sysop and leaving if I don't lol). But thank you Tim for the note, it's people like you that I've enjoyed so much about Conservapedia and it's why I'm having such difficulty leaving!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:34, 16 January 2008 (EST)
::I have had some frustrating experiences here also. Including some long debates against Andy. I even stopped contributing for a while. (8 edis from 8/28 til 1/9) (thus my "no vote" on your sysop nomination.) I think if you stick around and contribute, you will end up with the rights sooner or later. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] 00:14, 17 January 2008 (EST)
:::Thanks for the kind words. I will probably stick around for a bit longer than I originally planned, definitely until the end of the nomination (assuming that ends in a reasonable amount of time ...), and then I'll re-evaluate (with the results from that and from experiences over that time) and see where I'm at, although really if too much time goes by I'm going to have to immediately leave, as especially given the type of work I do (browsing articles, checking recent changes, and editing templates), even doing the smallest thing is sometimes time consuming without rights (I can't edit templates without going to someone - even if I just need to fix grammar in a template), I can't delete articles without tracking someone down ... and so on. But hey, so far no one has come out and opposed me on the nomination, so I suppose there's hope.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:18, 17 January 2008 (EST)
::::There is a lot of "history" to why getting extra editing rights and sysop permissions isn't as straightforward as it should be, Iduan. There is still a slight shadow over the site, which I thought had been lifted, hence my return last December, but please hang in there. There are ''at least'' 4 very good, dedicated and hard working editors who are all deserving of receiving the sysop's mops and buckets, and I hope to see you all getting the permissions sooner rather than later. With a good team of genuinely motivated sysops, who aren't just in it for the power trip, we could even see the return of 24-hour editing, as Andy could be confident that we would deal with vandalism across all time zones. I know it is frustrating, I've been in your shoes also, but everything comes to he who waits. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 07:18, 17 January 2008 (EST)
:::::Fox, thanks for those encouraging words because I have been considering my own future here as well. I made my first edit in I think May 2007. However, I have been informed (anonymously) that certain people have been circulating rumours about me (I know that I am not alone in this) and fear that it has jeopardized any hope I have of being able to accomplish more. I think that Fox, PJR, Iduan and myself are probably some of the most "wiki"-ish editors here. (I am on the editorial board of the internal wiki for a large company so do have some experience in running these things.) However, it is dis-spiriting when all of my active fellow editors are overlooked. [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 14:24, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::::::I hope neither of you leave. You're some of the best editors here.-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 14:29, 20 January 2008 (EST)
I think you are both vital to CP, along with some of the other grinders (and I mean that in a complimentary sense) here. I cannot over-emphasize that enough. Your "sleeves rolled up" attitudes are amazing! Please think carefully before deciding to move on. We have shown with the competition that we have the makings of a great team here, and things can now only get better :) Of course, don't stay just because I've asked, stay because you want to. There is so much raw material here to work with, and still so many fantastic and needed articles yet to be created. Brian, I hope that particular boogey man is laid to rest for good. Don't let it get you down. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 14:35, 20 January 2008 (EST)
:Rumors? Ugh. This is why I avoid wikipolitics.-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 14:36, 20 January 2008 (EST)

== I've passed you in the contest! ==

Oh, it's on Iduan. It. Is. On.-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 00:54, 18 January 2008 (EST)
:Lol, you know we're on the same team - right?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:54, 18 January 2008 (EST)
::What's wrong with some friendly internecine rivalry :-) ?-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 12:05, 18 January 2008 (EST)
:::Haha I suppose nothing, unless one user is unaware of the rivalry lol, well hey - you probably deserve second more than I do anyway - keep up the good work.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:13, 18 January 2008 (EST)
::::Gentlemn, I think you should both defer further entries and let the nice people on [[Conservapedia:Eagle_Team|Team Eagle]] win. ;-) [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 17:53, 18 January 2008 (EST)
:::::lol, you may be right Lt, I'll consider it.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 17:58, 18 January 2008 (EST)

== Goodness! Great job! ==

We're within 100; I'm intending to help now! And, sorry for betraying you for BrianCo... :-)-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 23:49, 19 January 2008 (EST)
:Lol, i guess I'll forgive you. Oh man, I've been typing so much today - and a lot of it is really boring like [[NCAA Men's Basketball]] - which took FOREVER - so in conclusion, my hands hurt lol--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:53, 19 January 2008 (EST)
::(P.S. for some reason i called you brianco in my edit summary - oh, maybe because i saw that you typed the name as i was typing the edit summary ... meh - my head hurts too :'( )--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:54, 19 January 2008 (EST)
I have no doubt your hands hurt; are you up to almost 700? Man, I'm at barely 1/21st of that. I'll get there...-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 00:23, 20 January 2008 (EST)
:You'll do great - I'm not going to be here tomorrow due to a trip - but if you need any help with anything tonight i should be up for about 3 more hours, my AIM sn is lssacDuan--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:24, 20 January 2008 (EST)

== Good work! ==

Be happy. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 12:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)
:Haha, you too - now to have the judges pick the winner! (Side note: are you aware that your spelling "good" wrong?)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 12:12, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Iduan, is there somewhere where one can see a breakdown of the points that each person claims? I thought that was one of the requirements for the competition. [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 14:04, 20 January 2008 (EST)

== template ==

It wasn't actually mine. I just tried to categorize it. :-) --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] 17:13, 21 January 2008 (EST)

I'm afraid i didn't like his categorization. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 17:14, 21 January 2008 (EST)

== Nice template but... ==

I didn't see what you were doing until you got my school! Darn them for being high in the alphabetical order!

By the way, since I see you have upload rights, you could use [http://www.bucknell.edu/images/System/header_logo.gif this] lovely image to supplement your lovely template :) [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 21:12, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Move Plate ==
Oh. Thanks, hadn't known about that. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 00:41, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== JimmyB and the Fact Tags ==

(My new band name?) I think the tag was needed, as the statement is in clear violation of the [[conservapedia:guidelines|CP:G]] (attribution) and [[conservapedia:commandments|CP:C]] (always cite sources). Whether or not he was trolling is disputable, but the result of his edit was correct. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:30, 23 January 2008 (EST) PS: Like the new acronyms? I'm hoping they'll catch on so I can save some typing. I cite CP:G quite often ;-)
:Some facts are indisputable - that's been CP's policy for as long as I can remember. Note that the rule your referring to is not always cite sources, but always cite your sources - which is slightly different (always cite your sources is more of, if you have sources, cite them). The acronyms aren't bad at all :D (and don't worry, my block of JimmyB was for multiple reasons)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:33, 23 January 2008 (EST)
::I'm sure the block was reasonable, but I dispute... actually I just reread it, and as the article stands it ''technically'' doesn't need any sources. (It also ''technically'' doesn't say much of anything.) Someone edited it after me and added another wishy-word (and I added some of my own) such that the article now satisfies CP:G, and since there are no sources, there's nothing to cite. Continue on... [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 16:37, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== Vote ==

Click on the link to vote in my poll. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 23:05, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== Thanks ==
I thank you for treating me with leniency, instead of slapping me with a three day ban. It is most appreciated, good sir. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 01:26, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== PM and Prime Minister templates ==

Please read [[User talk:Fox/Archive3#Template list|this]] and [[User talk:BrianCo/Archive 1#PM and Succession templates|this]] before going any further. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:25, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Conservapedia as a "family-freindly" entity ==

I fail to see how being clear about what Don Imus said constitutes being "unfriendly" to any fmailies that I know of. Certainly, as the father of two small children, I'd want them to KNOW that it is UNACCEPTABLE to call a group of African-American athletes "nappy-headed hoes," and I'd want them to know WHY, which requires explaining what a "ho" is. Keeping out the quote softens what Imus did, which smacks of the attitude, which I've hard from several conservatives, that what Imus did "wasn't so bad," and "got blown up by the media." The fact is, he made a RACIST and SEXIST comment, and educating our children how NOT to be those two things involves some pretty tough choices. We must, as a nation, be willing to ADMIT the institutionalized RACISM and SEXISM inherent in much of our society and popular culture. If you wish to ban me, feel free. [[User:Artiefisk]]
:I don't know why you'd think I banned you, nor do I know why you think that putting red herrings in caps strengthens your argument, but nonetheless - your most recent addition is fine, however we want the language of this encyclopedia to remain clean.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:29, 25 January 2008 (EST)

== Last ban ==
Alright, fair enough. I just want to know which entry I was banned for. Logic would suggest it was [[Talk:Affirmative Action President]], however your acts of censorship and accusations of trolling over at [[Talk:Genius_bias]] would suggest otherwise. I figured I'd check with you before restoring my own words. [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 20:40, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:(sorry for the late response here - I was creating an article) - Yeah, the comment at Genius bias is the one--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:57, 25 January 2008 (EST)
::'salright. But I'm not quite clear on how that was trolling... [[User:Barikada|Barikada]] 20:59, 25 January 2008 (EST)

== Not again! ==

I welcome them only to find you've blocked them! Ha! --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 23:54, 25 January 2008 (EST)

::(In response to your post on my page): I saw DavidR welcome [[User:Veggiechips|Veggiechips]] and wanted to get in quick. Too quick obviously! --[[User:GDewey|GDewey]] 00:00, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Iduan, we have to close up a bit early tonight. Get some rest and start early tomorrow morning! Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:03, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:Aww seriously? Haha, I just got on a bit ago! Well hey, I'll finish what I was doing tomorrow afternoon then.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:06, 26 January 2008 (EST)

== Deletion ==

Use '''<nowiki>{{speedy}}</nowiki>''' or '''<nowiki>{{db|reason}}</nowiki>''' instead of the regular Delete template. It also sorts things into the "Speedy Deletion Candidate" category. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 16:03, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:It's a somewhat formal issue. The delete tag should be used for articles where discussion is encouraged (which is why it offers an AFD link). Vandalism should be speedied.
:Practically, this is triply moot, though:
:#Speedy Deletion Candidates are rarely checked by sysops: The oldest entry in that category was tagged (by me, even) in SEPTEMBER.
:#Regular Deletion Candidates are even less monitored: The (potentially) oldest entry in that category was tagged in JUNE.
:#Deletion discussion - on this site? Har. In the end, it all grinds down to non-binding discussion until some sysop arbitrarily decides to delete it or to declare that the nomination was an attempt at liberal censorship.
:In the end, unless a sysop notices the "DELETE THIS" in the Recent Changes, these things are going to rot either way. But we might as well keep pretending that there is a difference between them. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 16:17, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:: That's a very cynical attitude! But not far wrong though, unfortunately! (I'm not endorsing point 3, though.)
:: The problem I have with categories is that they need to be regularly checked. (As far as I know, there's no way to get notified when a new page appears in a given category.) Perhaps we should have a page where we list speedy deletion candidates (or do we already?). If that page is on our watchlists, we will notice if it gets changed (something gets added to it). But that means putting a notice on the page concerned (assuming that's actually necessary) ''and'' on the speedy deletion page. Perhaps you (plural) could have a think about it, and start a discussion somewhere (and invite likely-interested parties to participate in the discussion).
:: As for point 3, the main problem is very little discussion by anyone. It doesn't need to be binding; if there is a consensus, surely a sysop can act on that consensus (or explicitly reject it if he thinks he really should). But the severe lack of interest in discussion is the main problem, I think.
:: We've tried implementing a deletion process a couple of times before, but I don't think that we've ever really got it right, and that's as much as anything because there was no real discussion on how it should work.
:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 05:34, 27 January 2008 (EST)

== Ok ==

Good work! --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 16:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:Haha thanks - though you and Dan were the one's that actually got the work done!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 17:00, 26 January 2008 (EST)

== Goodbye Iduan :-( ==

You'll be missed. I hope you might come back here after a while; you were a very hard worker and a very, very nice guy. See you soon, -[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 11:33, 27 January 2008 (EST)
:Iduan, I'm so sorry to see you go. I can appreciate your frustration as I have also been a sysop candidate for a long time and am still waiting for my contributions to be recognized. However, I still believe Mr. Aschlafly when he says that Conservapedia is a meritocracy and hope that my contributions will ultimately be recognized despite what I know others to have said behind my back. I too have tried to improve Conservapedia both in content as well as quality and appearance but have been disappointed by being unable to accomplish certain tasks without having to jump through hoops. As the site owner, the future of Conservapedia lies in the hands of Mr. Aschlafly. As a true conservative and he is a man of his word, so I am convinced he will shortly promote one or two editors of proven longstanding just as he has promised us all over the past six months. To do otherwise would be tantamount to taxation without representation, a liberal position that would never be promulgated here. I encourage you to stay and persevere as your contributions have been incredibly valuable to the overall standing of Conservapedia. I intend to continue here for a while longer hoping for a sign of recognition and encourage you to join me in doing the same. Conservapedia is a trustworthy encyclopedia and I have faith that the trust is a two-way thing. God bless you whatever you choose. [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 14:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)
::To be fair, though, Iduan can not even get ''edit'' rights, while others (who have done significantly less work) ''have'' been given them (not to mention the two-entry sysop). I asked for edit rights and Andy couldn't even give me a believable answer. Is it really credible to say that if Iduan holds on longer he will be made sysop? Iduan (and my) grief isn't that he is being denied rights, but that he is given no reason for such. A simple "you are too liberal" or "you need to make X number of edits" or anything that's actually verifiable is much better than being ignored or hand-waved to. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:01, 27 January 2008 (EST)

== Come back ==

This is not the way to go. Your work has been appreciated and useful. You don't need more to be excellent as you have been. So, come back and be proud of your work with the silent applause of many. See the example of Learn together and others. This project is not of speed but of resistance. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 15:15, 27 January 2008 (EST)
== OK ==

This is much better! --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 20:47, 31 January 2008 (EST)

==Lexda==

I was simply trying to even the score a bit. The [[Liberal Bias]] page has "Examples of Liberal Style," so I see no reason that the [[Conservative Bias]] page can't have the same thing. I don't believe this is vandalism, simply myself adding content to this Wiki, which I thought was the whole point of a Wiki in the first place.{{unsigned|Lexda}}

User talk:Aschlafly/Archive36

2008-03-13T20:06:13Z

DHayes: Since "Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #91 on the Wanted List.)

==Banners==
alright, howabout a banner that displays the Con-Commandments so that your editors will start following them instead of bending them to fit an agenda? The point of an encyclopedia is to inform, not sway people to a certain point of view. Even if that is the case, you have rules right on your main page illustrating how an article should be presented, I felt that these articles(as well as others I was going to plaster) didn't fit the bill or follow the rules.[[User:Acronym|Acronym]]

: You're the first person in a year and about 370,000 page edits to post such a ridiculous banner. So, no, that does not require "rule". Moreover, the banner was wrong: the [[liberals]] entry is accurate and you have not identified any error in it. We don't allow censorship, or downplaying, educational truth here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:58, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Wow, I am the first in so long, must mean I am like the messiah or something then aye!? Also, if you wanted educational truth on these pages, why have a disclaimer explaining that you aren't liable for "incorrect information"?
I have an issue with this blanket statement:"A Liberal is a believer in many of the following political positions:"
soooo...
Rudi Giulliani is a liberal, because he believes in: taxpayer funded abortion?

In that track you could label a "conservative" as one who believes in the opposite of everything a liberal does...but what of those who believe in a combination of these 'tenets'? A distinction between social liberal, economic liberal, and any others seems appropriate. I keep thinking of something I keep reading from sysops: "keep an open mind" oh well.

[[User:Acronym|Acronym]]

: Right, [[Rudy Giuliani]] is a [[liberal]]. There are [[liberal]] [[Republicans]], you know. By the way, you should sign your name using the signature button above the edit space. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:51, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Okay, well, what about his stance on the death penalty and immigration-following "typical" conservative train...is he NOW a conservative? My point is you can't put everything into two categories. --A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 16:08, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: You could say the same thing about science: "you can't put everything into __ categories." But categories are useful in science, and also in politics, and just because there may be exceptions that should not prevent characterizing and categorizing political positions. If one wants to go the know-nothing route with respect to describing the liberal ideology, then Wikipedia is a better place for that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)

:: Shall I now accuse you with using "[[liberal style]]"?--Taking things out of context AND misquoting me! I said TWO (2) II categories were not accurate representations of things. I do not disagree with categories, just under-representations of them.--A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 21:35, 20 January 2008 (EST)

::: So, we're focusing on the two biggest categories. What ... should be have separate category for people who think that secession should be allowed or want animals declared to be human? It makes sense to focus on the two biggest and most important categories.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:43, 20 January 2008 (EST)

You are straying a little far, slow down. I am just thinking instead of focusing, like you said, on the two "biggest" categories, realise that there are parts in these categories that are very important. Someone who wants privatized social security but is against the death penalty cannot be considered "conservative" or "liberal", but both economically conservative and socially liberal.
Also: What would make secession illegal? Animals aren't humans, but as living creatures, shouldn't they be respected as humans are? And, just because things are BIG, relatively, doesn't mean they are IMPORTANT.--A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 21:58, 20 January 2008 (EST)
: Animals are part of God's creation, and we are supposed to look after God's creation, not abuse it, but we shouldn't treat animals as humans, because God put humans above animals, giving humans "dominion" over the animals. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:46, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Please don't get in on this conversation... thank-you --A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. 17:08, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Request for night editing rights==
Can I please have night editing rights? I live in the UK, so the nighttime lockdown presently means that I can't edit in the morning, which is frustrating. (If you'd prefer that I get more experience and build up a longer track record before you can trust me with the rights, then that's OK; I wasn't sure if there was a required minimum number of edits or anything like that.) [[User:Walton One|Walton One]] 13:52, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: We'll take a look at your edits. Thanks for contributing and asking.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:56, 20 January 2008 (EST)

I'd also like to ask for night edit rights, but like Walton I'm not sure if there's a minimum edit requirement. --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 20:37, 20 January 2008 (EST)

==Unlock==
Hey andy - can you unlock [[Template:Who says]] for me? I just want to clean it up a little with breaks and such. Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:34, 20 January 2008 (EST)

: Done, Iduan. And congratulations on a great contest ... that you initiated!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:53, 20 January 2008 (EST)
::Done, and thank you :D! Yeah I'm really glad it turned out as nicely as it did ... only a few minor problems that are easily resolvable. I mean obviously the point system is far from perfect - I'm sure there are many critiques you and other editors have, but I think it's a start. And congratulations on scoring an unbelievable 1426 points!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:02, 20 January 2008 (EST)

:: It is a fantastic start. Your rule system was a big improvement, and we'll improve even further next time. I learned an enormous amount from my editing during the contest. Thank you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:06, 20 January 2008 (EST)

==contest==
Hi mr. Schlafly, when's the next contest? I might consider joining.
--[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 09:09, 21 January 2008 (EST)

: That would be super, Ben. It would be great if you could join our team. We're planning a "rematch" with the other team and we'll beat 'em next time. In the meantime we'll figure out how to improve the rules. Once we settle on the new rules, hopefully in a week or so, we can rechallenge them. Your suggestions on rule changes are welcome.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 09:14, 21 January 2008 (EST)

I was actually hoping to join the other team, but I suppose i'll be whichever team needs another guy. --[[User:BenjaminS|Ben]] [[User Talk:BenjaminS|Talk]] 09:19, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:At the beggining of each contest, the captains of the teams choose the team's players. You get put on whichever side chooses you!! :P --[[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 09:22, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Ben, it would be great to have you on our team in the next contest! Steve joined our team in the last contest, and did very well. It's good to see you editing again! ~ [[User:SharonS|Sharon]][[User talk:SharonS|Talk]] 10:19, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Hey your entry [[D.C. v. Heller]] was really fascinating Mr. Schlafly. when do you think that case will be resolved? --[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 13:44, 21 January 2008 (EST)

: Steve, it is a fascinating case. A decision will probably be issued in June. I'll be adding to our entry further, and you should feel free to do likewise!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:53, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::That is a really exciting case, and a well-written article, too, thanks for it! Andy, I saw the City of New York on the ''amicus'' list, and think I know why they're filing for the gun control side: don't they have a case pending against gun manufacturers right now? Do we have an article about that? And, I'm gearing up for Contest4.5 (?). Do we think it'll happen?-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 20:11, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::: We're going to have a rematch and crush Eagle Team next time!!! I'm already plotting how to do it ... and how to "reform" the point system!!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:20, 21 January 2008 (EST)
:::: That thar's fightin' talk where I come from :D [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 20:24, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::::: Ha ha ha. We were just warming up, seeing what your team can do. The rematch will be the real one that counts!!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:00, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::::::I second Andy - it was all strategy - genius strategy if I do say to myself :D --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:21, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Take a look at my recent edit history. I have been unable to get on due to night time edits, but I think my contributions still continue to be useful to conservapedia. I'll join the contest too if I get night time edit privileges first. Thanks. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 23:04, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:Thanks. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 11:05, 22 January 2008 (EST)

::Oh, wait, I did not get it. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 22:41, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Deletion of liberals on Wikipedia who want their entries deleted ==

The more I look into this the more I see a pattern. Wikipedia willingly deletes articles about liberals when the subjects don't want a biography but refuses to do the same when conservatives or neoconservatives want their articles deleted. May I send you an email detailing all the cases? [[User:SkipJohnson|SkipJohnson]] 16:35, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Just FYI==
Hey Andy, to avoid confusion, I thought I'd just make you aware that at the same time you were reverted the Nelson mandela edit of [[User:WindarLarches]], I was also, I, before you had made the warning, had blocked the user per what I thought was inexcusable vandalism. Obviously though, after I saw that you had warned him and decided to give him another chance, I retracted the block--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:30, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:Hey - could you give me an ok on everything I'm doing, I've started this relatively big project where I'm putting [[Template:University]] on every single university page. Examples include [[Harvard University]], [[Columbia University]], [[University of Connecticut]], and [[University of Southern California]]. If you could take a look at them and just give me an ok to keep going, I'd appreciate it.
:Oh, and one other thing: I'm also doing relatively boring start articles if we don't already have an article on an university. They require a bit of research, and thus every article has unique numbers, but beyond that the formula is really generic, as you can see in [[University of Maryland]] and [[University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill]] - is it ok that I'm creating those types of articles (I've written 6 total)? Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:54, 22 January 2008 (EST)

:: We're weak in the category of universities and your work is a godsend, Iduan!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:57, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:::Oh wow, thank you - I'll definitely try to keep it up then! Thanks again,--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:15, 22 January 2008 (EST)
Well after adding that template to 86 articles and creating 21 college articles, I'm going to move on from this - lol I'm sick of college!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)

== rights ==

Hi Andy, I'd like to request night edit rights. I'm not sure how many edits are needed though... --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 20:48, 22 January 2008 (EST)
:Hi - are you on? --[[User:LiamS|'''L'''iam '''S'''pencer]] [[User talk:LiamS|(talk)]] 01:38, 23 January 2008 (EST)

== Major vandal attack under way! ==

I think I have it under control, but I may not...-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 21:03, 22 January 2008 (EST)

== Vaccine Injury Compensation Program ==

What do you think of [[Vaccine Injury Compensation Program]]? SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 22:47, 22 January 2008 (EST)
==Time==
Hey Andy, can you give me a clock on how much time before editing is turned off, I was going to do some more templates, but they require at least 8 minutes each, and I don't want to do one if I'll get stuck lol, thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]]
:Hey, Andy, are you going to leave night on again tonight? If not, could you give me a time (same reason as above)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:19, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== the 25 Worst Court Decisions ==

I promoted [[Wickard v. Filburn]] to the second worst Supreme court decision, and explained why on the talk page. See [[Essay: the 25 Worst Court Decisions]]. SW[[User:StephenW|♠]]·[[User_talk:StephenW|♥]]·[[Special:Contributions/StephenW|♣]] 00:18, 23 January 2008 (EST)

: Good effort, though I'm sure it ranks ''so'' high.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:54, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:That's worse than the Dred Scott decision which gave the court's approval for slavery? What about Plessy v Ferguson and the separate but equal doctrine? It isn't even on the list. What about the Sacco-Vanzetti conviction where two men where executed essentially on anti-immigrant sentiment? [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 21:57, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:: Your lack of open-mindedness is causing you to misread clear statements, such as "rulings overturned by the court system are not included." [[Essay: the 25 Worst Court Decisions]]. Help yourself: open your mind when you read here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:07, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:::So, if Roe v Wade were overturned tomorrow it would cease to be the worst court decision? Plessy v Ferguson was stare decisis for close to 60 years. It had a huge effect on jurisprudence and was a decision with no prior precedent built purely on racism. Thanks for recommending I remain open minded, I'll have to remember that when discussing disease prevention, genocide, or the shaking of children to death. It seems I'm closed minded in those areas. [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 22:23, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Vote ==

Click on the link to vote in my poll. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 23:05, 23 January 2008 (EST)
==Templates==
Andy, do we have two templates that are for the same thing? [[Template:PM]], [[Template:Prime Minister]]. If this is wrong, would you mind unlocking the articles so I could work on fixing it (this might take me a while)? Thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, nm, looks like you've gone to bed. Maybe tomorrow--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:33, 24 January 2008 (EST)

:: Still here. Unlocked as requested. Thanks and Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:53, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Ahh, thank you! I'm actually done and I haven't even made any edits - I know that sounds strange, but I was searching through the code and trying to figure out ways to combine them through the code alone, but I realized after doing a few that it would probably be faster, and less of a drain on the server, if I just went through every page [[Template:PM]] linked to and replaced it. Thanks so much anyways, as I wouldn't have been able to figure that out without testing a few, once I'm done, I'll put a note here and if you want, you can delete [[Template:PM]] (which is the one I'm replacing since it's obviously the lesser of two templates - see [[Tony Blair]] and [[Edmund Barton]]) --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:59, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, it's going to take me a long while to do all of those, in fact if you could somehow post a request of users to help switch Template:PM to Template:Prime Minister -I'd greatly appreciate it, as it gets very confusing with all the different parameters, but I'll try some more tomorrow, I'm off to bed early tonight, good night, I'll see you tomorrow--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 01:13, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Firefox==
I'm using a free trial version, and it keeps telling me information Im sending out is not encrypted. I don't know much about ssl or tsl or "secure sites", and the firefox help menu doesn't answer all my questions. {{unsigned|StevenM}}

: Just answer no to the encryption warnings, and permanently turn off those messages with that answer option if they bother you. No need to encrypt postings to a publicly available site!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:28, 24 January 2008 (EST)

::That's... misleading. The thing is that as far as I know, Conservapedia ''does not support'' encryption (and neither does Wikipedia, I assume). However, this doesn't mean that there is "no need" for it. Suppose somebody intercepted your Conservapedia password as you send it without encryption and then silently hijacks your account (and let's hope that you didn't use that password anywhere else). Encryption could have prevented that. Likewise, imagine somebody intercepting private Conservapedia mails.
::I freely admit that it's not ''likely'', but it's foolish to say that you don't ''need'' encryption when dealing with sites you send passwords and other personal information to.
::Yes, turn off the message, but keep in mind that there is a non-zero risk whenever you're working without encryption and that there can be significant damage if somebody exploits this. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 12:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)
:::Thanks Mr. Schlafly, I dont think theres much danger even if someone did steal my account. --[[User:StevenM|Steve]] 13:17, 24 January 2008 (EST)
::::Free trial version of Firefox? I don't think there is such a thing. Firefox is free, full-stop. Encryption is site dependent. As CP doesn't have encryption, then Firefox is correctly informing you that you are sending out information that is unencrypted. When you get the message there should be a dialogue box that has a check mark that you should select if you don't want to see the message again. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 13:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)

::::: Thanks for the tips.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:02, 24 January 2008 (EST)

== Block Protocol ==

Hey Andy, first of all apologies that I haven't been around lately; I've been a little sick but getting better. But I had a question about using my newly minted block ability (thank you again!). I've blocked obvious vandals for infinite, obviously, but I've been using it in line with my own thoughts as to the best option, for non-obvious vandalism, and I wanted to get your opinion to make sure it's in line with site protocol. For example, where I see users being insulting, I tend to give them a short block to cool down, and a very short block (30 minutes) to people who are obviously "edit-warring" or pushing their liberal views without discussion. Is that appropriate? Your guidance is appreciated!-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 21:29, 24 January 2008 (EST)

: Short blocks make sense for inappropriate edits that do not rise to the level hopeless vandalism. Often I try to warn first. We don't block purely for ideology unless it leads to [[rule]] violations.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:48, 24 January 2008 (EST)

: See [[Conservapedia:User rights#Blocking rights|here]]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:03, 25 January 2008 (EST)
==Article==
Hey Andy - can you unprotect [[Genocide]] temporarily? I'd like to add a source where there is a fact tag, and fix a few format things. Thanks so much!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:52, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:And can you also delete [[Phillips_Academy]]?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:43, 25 January 2008 (EST)

: Unprotected [[Genocide]] for you. Found nothing at [[Phillips_Academy]]. Perhaps someone beat me to it!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:47, 25 January 2008 (EST)
::: Yep, Joaquín Martínez beat you to it. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 05:23, 26 January 2008 (EST)
::I'm done - thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:53, 25 January 2008 (EST)
:::<s>Even more -there's a lot here - can you delete everything in [http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Contributions/Nounwri this?] Just so you know I put a delete tag on most of them just to get rid of the vandalism (I'm also going to tell other sysops since there's so much). Thanks--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:27, 26 January 2008 (EST)</s>
:::::Dan and Joaquin got them--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Sigh - I have another one - can you delete [[Actor / Actress]] - there's already [[actor]] - which has more content anyway--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:22, 26 January 2008 (EST)

: Done as requested. Thanks. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:35, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Thanks - and now I have a question. Why are we keeping [[Template:AboutC]] and [[Template:Tfa]] around? I was looking through [[Help:Templates]] and I noticed that we still had that.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 19:11, 26 January 2008 (EST)
:Oh and one more thing - since this category was only recently re-opened, it's kind of going without attention - so would you mind taking a look at [[:Category:Move requests]] (as there are more or less a dozen in there now) and could you also try to get the word out to sysops to check on that category? Thanks so much Andy!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)
::I just deleted the templates, when I replaced them a while ago, I must have forgotten to delete the old ones. [[User:Jallen|Jallen]] 07:06, 27 January 2008 (EST)
===Rights===
Andy, given my Conservapedia:Sysop contest/Nominations/Iduan|recent nomination)) (with full support barring a "no vote"), I want to again ask for sysop rights. I'm not going to spend time again going over all the reasons I deserve them - because that'd be a waste of your time, and I've already demonstrated why I need them; but I would like to ask you to just look at my contributions. I've spent a great amount of time improving Conservapedia and the only reason I want sysop rights is so I can improve it even more. I'd like an answer tonight, but all I need is a simple "yes" or "no" answer - no explanation required - through email or my talk page, and while I'd rather have a yes - and while I can assure you that if you give me a yes I will not disappoint you at all, I'd would be much happier with a "no" over no response at all. Thank you so much, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:11, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:Since [[User:CollegeRepublican|CollegeRepublican]] has not been [[Special:Contributions/CollegeRepublican|productive]] for over a month perhaps his rights could be given to [[User:Iduan|Iduan]]. You did say on 22 December with regards to [[User:CollegeRepublican|CollegeRepublican]] that "the rights will be revoked if not used productively", although perhaps just over a month is too short a time in which to judge productivity. On the other hand one must be cautions about granting power to those who actively seek it.[[User:Iduan|Iduan]] may simply abuse such privileges in order to get his way when it comes to edits. He may also be an agent from the other place doing a lot of minor edits in order to gain more rights so that he will then be in a better position to indulge in mischief. [[User:SimonJones|SimonJones]] 11:23, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:: SimonJones, you haven't yet contributed to a substantive entry. You've been nothing but talk, talk, talk here, something [[liberals]] love to do. How about contributing something of substance first, and then maybe afterwards you'll be in a position to give advice?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:32, 27 January 2008 (EST)

== Part of [[Swansea]] article is copied from [[Wikipedia]] ==

I have expanded the above article tonight and noticed that [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Swansea&diff=prev&oldid=239211 this addition] made on 18th July 2007 is word-for-word the same as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swansea&oldid=145045189 the passage in the Wikipedia article at the time]. A dubious statement has since been removed from the end of the passage by [[User:DanH]].

It is important information regarding Swansea and the history of Christianity in the [[United Kingdom]] and I do not feel able to check and re-write it accurately. Thanks, [[User:Barclay|Barclay]] 19:30, 27 January 2008 (EST)

==Hillary's Hollywood Values?==

Hi. I'm posting this here because it's appropriateness for the front page (even the talk page) is, uhm, ''problematic'', but I thought it might be of interest. Hillary Clinton has [http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/01/golden_earring_heralds_hillary.php chosen] for her campaign a song called "When the Lady Smiles", by the group Golden Earring. Problem is, the video for the song depicts the rape of two women, one of them a nun. Oops. The video was graphic enough that it was banned by MTV. I won't post a link here to the video, but it's out there if you Google it.--[[User:RossC|RossC]] 10:29, 29 January 2008 (EST)

:I watched the beginning of it on YouTube. The band's lead singer portrays a commuter on a subway. He ogles a girl's leg. Then he fantasizes that the middle-aged nun has a younger woman's face. I stopped watching when he began assaulting her.

:But is this a ''bona fide'' [[campaign song]], or was it merely one of half dozen pop songs played (audio only) by local organizers of a small event?

:Let's not scrape the bottom of barrel looking for dirt - that's so petty, and not worth the effort anyway. How about an article comparing the candidates' stands on major issues of interest to conservatives? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 21:55, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== [[Carbon dating]] ==

Andy, have you had time to look at that source yet? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 11:55, 29 January 2008 (EST)

: Sorry, I was distracted. Will do today. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:03, 29 January 2008 (EST)

::Have you had time yet? [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:26, 31 January 2008 (EST)

== Email ==

Still waiting for a reply. --[[User:CPAdmin1|Tim (CPAdmin1)]][[User talk:CPAdmin1|talk]] [[User:CPAdmin1/Election08|Vote for President]] 21:16, 30 January 2008 (EST)
==Contest==
Hey Mr. ASchlafly - can you update the # @ [[Conservapedia:Sysop_contest]]? I just realized it was outdated. Oh, and btw, this site is awesome - I just came here from CP - and it's just awesome in comparison (sorry a lot of my edits have been to the contest stuff - it's only because i think the system is so cool, but I plan to work on normal stuff soon)[[User:AriHatcher|AriHatcher]] 23:32, 31 January 2008 (EST)
:Wow - 25,000? You must not like any of the current candidates at all lol, thx for the update[[User:AriHatcher|AriHatcher]] 00:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)
==Contest(5?)==
Alright, I'm going to start cleaning up the scoring method based on issues last time, and I was wondering - are we going to start the next contest soon? Should I set it up? Because frankly, all that has to be done to the scoring is some fine tuning, then the captains will be the two people that scored the highest (LearnTogether and yourself), and then we can just find a judge. You and LT (assuming you both accept) could presumably start the draft tomorrow (we don't really need a list of interested users again - I'll put it up, but certainly we should allow captains to draft users that are not necessarily in that list). I know this all seems kind of fast, but trust me, I'm confident I can set up everything by then. My schedule is completely free today - and really all I have to do is:
#Fine tune the scoring
#Get the word out (easy - I'll put a note on each user's talk page and I'll put a note on the main page, and I'll recommend it as a breaking news story)
#Copy the most wanted list again (wow have you seen the one from last time? We got a lot done!) (I can do this tomorrow during the draft, as we only need it by the time the contest starts - which would be Monday).
So I mean, I can do all the dirty work - and all you and LT would have to do is pick on Sunday, and we'll start the contest on Monday. What do you think? (P.S. - I'm going to start refining the rules now, but that doesn't mean that I'm starting the next contest without your approval - just so you know)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 13:49, 2 February 2008 (EST)

: Great suggestion, Iduan. I'm not sure we can start it quite that quickly, and would like to fine-tune the rules a bit first. Let's discuss how the rules can be improved first.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:44, 2 February 2008 (EST)
::Ok, fair enough, and you're probably right - today and tomorrow would be the only day to discuss the rule changes - and that might not be enough, maybe Wednesday would be a better start time ... but nonetheless, just so you know, I'm going to go ahead and create the contest 5 page (like I created the contest 4 page last time - just so people can discuss the rules)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:51, 2 February 2008 (EST)
Alright - have a look - [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] - the changes I made are all based on issues we had in the last one or the contest before that, but obviously feel free to mark up whatever you like--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 15:56, 2 February 2008 (EST)
==Edit==
Andy, typically this doesn't happen to me - but I can't get the phrasing right to what I [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&curid=3943&diff=383983&oldid=383965 added to the George W. Bush article]. Given that it's such an important article, would you mind taking a look and seeing if you can improve it? Thanks, --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 12:59, 3 February 2008 (EST)
:Thanks Andy - the consistently/persistently thing and the addition of the liberal bias link makes that a lot better ... mind at ease :D. (I'm not even going to comment on the fact that I spelled do due - because that might be the most embarrassing edit ever)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 14:21, 3 February 2008 (EST)

:: Iduan, can you send me an email offline?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:29, 3 February 2008 (EST)

== Image ==

Hi -

At WP there's a discussion over [http://www.conservapedia.com/Image:ASchlafly.JPG this image]; we're wondering whether, when you say that you 'release the rights to it', do you mean that you have put it in the public domain, or GDFL, or some other system? Thanks. --[[User:JOwen|JOwen]]

: Wikipedia can use it without restriction, as is Conservapedia's general approach to copyright issues. Too bad Wikipedia doesn't adopt the same unrestrictive policy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:57, 4 February 2008 (EST)

::Licensing arrangements provide more of an incentive for collaboration than merely putting something into the public domain.

::Wikipedia's approach to "free licensing" of text derives from the [[Free Software Foundation]]'s philosophy of mutual sharing. First applied to computer software, the [[GPL]] made it possible for developers to get "credit" (praise, appreciation, bullet points in their resume, etc.) for their donated work. It also made it impossible for anyone to create a [[derived work]] which they release without sharing.

::This turns out to have been a great incentive for computer programmers to collaborate on all sorts of projects, large and small. There's even been a free alternative to the [[Microsoft Windows]] operating system developed - properly called [[GNU]] ("Gnu's Not Unix") but more often called "Linux" (see [[Linus Torvalds]].

::The amount of [[free software]] out their is huge, and much of it is '''significantly better''' than any commercial alternative. Some of it is public domain, but quite a bit of it is "free licensed" under [[GPL]]. Every bit of software that makes Conservapedia possible - the GNU/Linux operating system which your server runs, the MySQL database which holds all the article versions, the MediaWiki software used to enter and display articles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 11:38, 12 February 2008 (EST)

::: Ed, the system you describe works well for software development, but not for encyclopedias or other documents. I don't know why Wikipedia thought that the exact same cumbersome system needed for maintaining and improving free software would make sense for a mere 1000-word educational entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:34, 12 February 2008 (EST)

==contest point system==
Andy - I wanted to make sure you knew about this change since you had already looked at the rules system before I made it - and I don't want you to feel like I'm blind-sighting you. BrianCo brought up the fact that many users were not organizing their points well, and it was causing problems for both himself and, presumably, the judge. So, I added the same very basic point layout I reccomended in Contest4, however this time we're also saying that any user that does not use this or a similar method will have 20 points taken off their score. I feel like this warning will also compel the team captains to keep their players in line - and it'll make the judges' work a lot easier.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:33, 4 February 2008 (EST)
===timing===
Uhhh - remember when I said I could try and set up the contest in one day? Thanks for '''not''' holding me to that - because even now we're not that near to being ready (especially since Learn Together - a captain, hasn't shown up for a while ...), although it's too bad - I have like a thousand ideas for articles that I don't want to write next so I can get big points in the contest :) --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)
===Unprotect Request===
Hey Andy - can you unprotect [[Template:Progress]] for a while? I'd like to standardize its look (this might take some time - but I should be able to quickly revert any vandalism that might happen while I'm working)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:52, 4 February 2008 (EST)
:Thank you! I didn't do the best color scheme possible - but it has the look :D --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:04, 5 February 2008 (EST)
===Email===
Just to let you know I will usually never do this, however I just sent you an email with private information in it - and if you could respond just to confirm you got it I'd appreciate it.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 00:13, 5 February 2008 (EST)

== moccasin - small request of not much importance :p ==

hi Andy, I created some pages earlier today, among them was [[mocassin]]. Since then, I discovered that while "mocassin" is an accepted alternate spelling, the more common spelling is "moccasin". (with 2 c's, one s). Could you please do me the favor of having a sysop either change the name of the page, or make a "redirect" page (I don't know how to do this yet) to "moccasin"? (or if it's ok, leave as is) I'm sorry for the confusion. Thank you very much for the assistance. [[User:Taj|Taj]] 00:05, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:Done. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:11, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:: Much thanks! :) Thanks to Geo for helping too, you guys are fast! [[User:Taj|Taj]] 00:13, 8 February 2008 (EST)
==Time==
Hey Andy - I think there's only one more issue that needs to be solved on [[Conservapedia:Contest5]] (whether or not breaking news edits should count) - so why don't we assume that the captains will draft tomorrow? (As of today, the captains would be you and Learn Together - however I'm not sure whether Learn Together is here or not - if it ends up that he's not here we can always just go down to the next highest scorer - Fox, thoughts?)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:12, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:Alright ... maybe next Saturday then.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:51, 9 February 2008 (EST)
==Email==
Andy, just so you know, I just sent an important email to you--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:17, 12 February 2008 (EST)
:P.S. should I move forward with the contest?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 08:32, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Question==
Andrew, I was wondering how you would substantiate the claim that the American public is twice as conservative as it is liberal after the recent primaries? These seem to indicate that the American public is at least twice as liberal as it is conservative. User: Jeffjeff. 23:09, 12 February 2008.

: The most liberal candidates on both sides were crushed by huge margins: Edwards on the Democratic side, and Giuliani on the Republican side. McCain is more conservative than most of the Republican frontrunners, though conservatives still have valid concerns. Obama and Clinton seem indistinguishable ideologically. Today Clinton was calling for universal health care, while Obama was not being as liberal. That contest seems to have devolved into a debate over race rather than ideology.

: If you need convincing about how conservative the American public is, take a look at our headline today about gun rights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:06, 13 February 2008 (EST)

== Technical problems ==

Mr. Schlafly there still appears to be something wrong with the site. There is a funny message in the top left-hand corner and fonts are very large. Also the main page is now incredibly wide. [[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]] 08:49, 13 February 2008 (EST)
:I see that too - if it helps the message in the top left is: #$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit']=false; ?> [[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 08:57, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:: No problem with the site from my browser. There is a small error message in the top left-hand corner which will be fixed. It doesn't interfere with anything.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:01, 13 February 2008 (EST)

I must say I am having the same issue. I am using IE7 and the fonts and size of the windows are all different. When I am editing a page the text returns to seminormal but it is still very different than from 3 days ago.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:11, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::The site is quite normal for me! :P [[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 10:45, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Still on hiatus==
Andy, only have a minute to stop by. Still on hiatus. going through a massive reorganization of a business I had to retake control of. May have a few hours in the next month or two, hopefully.

God bless, and I'll have a mountain to catch up when I get back. RobSmith

: Thanks, Rob. We miss you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 13 February 2008 (EST)
::Agreed - we can't wait for you to return Rob!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 20:46, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==In the news==
I thought about putting this on the Main page but wanted to run it by you first. I think this site would be valuable to our Conservapedia editors. [http://felonspy.com/index.html FelonSpy.com - Search for violent criminals in your neighborhood] It's a free search so I don't believe it's advertising. You can either reply or post it yourself. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 20:25, 13 February 2008 (EST)

: Interesting, but let's pass on that, for several reasons. That site may install cookies or spyware on visitor's computers. But even if it doesn't, not all felons are violent or still dangerous. In fact, I think most felons are not dangerous at all. In general perhaps people should be less scared of their neighbors, not more so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:: Interesting site. Not sure that it is entirely serious. Did you notice their disclaimer: "Apparently we care more about your well being than your own politicians and their stupid laws do, but that probably doesn't come as too much of a surprise to you. Give money to anarchy societies anonymously, it's the only way to protect yourself". And their link to this site: [link deleted] I might just bookmark that. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:06, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::: Oops. I hope I didn't just spoil a joke you were playing on Mr. Schlafly. If so, sorry. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:14, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::::HMayo, I wasn't joking and I don't appreciate your accusation.
::::Andy, I created this page [[FelonSpy]] to warn our editors of their [[deceit]]. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 11:09, 14 February 2008 (EST)

:::: You're clueless, HMayo. See if you can contribute something substantive. At the rate you're going, you'll be blocked for inadequate substance.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:18, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::::: Yes... clearly I am the clueless one here. --[[User:HMayo|HMayo]] 21:26, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Actually Andy - at first I thought the site was serious - I mean there was no indication it was a joke, and I even tried looking up my street (there were two "criminals" - surprisingly neither of which I knew). However after seeing HMayo's comment and checking again, I noticed that everything was different than the first time I looked it up - all of the names and places had changed. Now I'm not saying Crocoite knew about his in any way - and HMayo it's obviously inappropriate to take the accusatory tone you did, but, just for everyone's information, I do believe the site is fake.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:27, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:Of course it's a fake. That's obvious from a first glance. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 04:48, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Template talk:Babel

2008-03-13T20:00:22Z

DHayes: Need sysop attention here: Please remove a link and solve yet another Wanted Page!

Conservapedia:Contest4

2008-03-13T19:56:09Z

DHayes: Since "Conservapedia:Contest4/Wanted" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #7 on the Wanted List.)

'''The contest will run: Sunday [[January]] 13th @ 12a.m. - Sunday January 20th @ 12p.m. The draft will occur Saturday'''
 '''Sign up for the draft by adding your user name to the list below.'''
__NOTOC__
{| style="background:none"
|-
|width="60%"|

== Challenges to points ==

I'm going to challenge any points for ''unused'' uploaded images. Those simply soak up space and do not add value to the encyclopedia unless used. But if not used by the person who uploaded them, and used within a day or two of uploading, they are likely to be forgotten and never used. So I do not think any points are appropriate if ''unused''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:30, 19 January 2008 (EST)

===Contestants===
'''Please add your username if you want to participate for the draft.''' 
<nowiki>[[User:example]] or 3 tildes</nowiki>
#<s>[[User:Iduan]]</s>
#<s>[[User:MakeTomorrow]]</s>
#<s>[[User:TheGuy]]</s>
#<s>[[User:SharonS]]</s>
#<s>[[User:Aschlafly]]</s>
#<s>[[User:BrianCo]]</s>
#<s>[[User:ThomasB]]</s>
#<s>[[User:Learn_together]]</s>
#<s>[[User:Fox]]</s>
#<s>[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</s>
#<s>[[User:MexMax|MexMax]]</s> The chief asked me... how can I decline?
#<s>[[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]]</s>
#<s>[[User:GregLarson|GregLarson]]</s>
#<s>[[User:feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] I'll help if I can!</s>
#<s>[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] - my contributions will be limited because I'm working 7 days a week now</s>
#Hope I'm not too late <s>[[User:Gerrard|Gerrard]]</s> 17:48, 12 January 2008 (EST)
#<s>[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]]</s> (Yeesh, this encyclopedia doesn't get better by leaving it, does it? Let's do some good.)
#<s>[[User:MarkC]]</s>
#<s>This look very exicting [[User:Tineke|Tineke]] 16:10, 12 January 2008 (EST)</s>
#<s>[[User:Bradlaugh|Bradlaugh]] - as with Crocoite, a lot on right now but I'd try and do what I can </s>
#<s>[[User:StevenM|StevenM]]</s>
|width="40%" style="text-align:right"|
====Draft Format====
#<s>BrianCo</s>(selects Fox)
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>Aschlafly</s>
#<s>BrianCo</s>
#BrianCo
|}

===Judges===
*[[User:BethanyS|BethanyS]] (Please post your dilemmas [[Conservapedia talk:Contest4|here]])
===Teams===
{|width="75%" class="wikitable"
|-
!colspan="2" width="50%" style="font-variant:small-caps"|[[Conservapedia:Eagle Team|Eagle Team]]
!colspan="2" width="50%" style="font-variant:small-caps"|[[Conservapedia:Team Freedom|Team Freedom]]
|-
!width="25%"|Captain
|width="25%"|[[User:BrianCo|BrianCo]]
!width="25%"|Captain
|width="25%"|[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]]
|-
!colspan="2"|Members
!colspan="2"|Members
|-
|colspan="2"|
#[[User:Fox|Fox]]
#[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]]
#[[User:ThomasB|ThomasB]]
#[[User:Learn_together]]
#[[User:Feebasfactor]]
#[[User:Crocoite]]
#[[User:GregLarson]]
#[[User:Tineke]]
#[[User:Bradlaugh]]
#[[User:Joaquín Martínez]]
|colspan="2"|
#[[User:Iduan]]
#[[User:Ed Poor]]
#[[User:MexMax]]
#[[User:SharonS]]
#[[User:Lukecorlando|Luke]]
#[[User:TheGuy]]
#[[User:Jenkins]]
#[[User:Gerrard]]
#[[User:MarkC]]
#[[User:StevenM]]
|}
(''The top 7 scorers on either team will qualify towards its point total.'')

==Purpose==
The purpose of the contest is to '''improve Conservapedia''' by tapping into the competitive side of our editors, fostering sportsmanship is also a goal.
==Rules==
In addition to the scoring guidelines below:
*Good sportsmanship is required and aspects of the rules are subject to change during the contest if consensus supports the revision
*No editor is allowed to artificially make a page wanted, then create it. To prevent this - all wanted pages will be listed on a page (to be created) before the contest starts, and only those will count as wanted pages throughout the competition.
*All editors must keep track of their score in a clear format: preferably:
<pre>
<nowiki>
==Type of Edit(Points the edit is Worth)(Number of this type made)==
links to diff (no organization necessary).
</nowiki>
</pre>

== Point System ==
===New entry===
Quality new entry: '''15 points'''
*''Definition'':A Quality New Entry includes at least two full-length paragraphs, three relevant citations, several links to other entries, some in-depth content and designations of category, and is not entirely copied.
*''Exception'': Entertainment-related* Quality New Entries will receive only '''11 points'''.

Ordinary New Entry: '''6 points'''
*''Definition'': An Ordinary New Entry is a new entry which does not meet the qualifications for a Quality New Entry, but is of higher quality than a Short New Entry, and is not entirely copied.
*''Exception'': Entertainment-related* Ordinary New Entries will receive only '''4 points'''.

Short New Entry: '''4 points'''
*''Definition'': A Short New Entry contains only a few sentences and may or may not have a reference, and is not entirely copied.
*''Exception'': Entertainment-related Short New Entries will receive only '''3 points'''.

Copied Entries That Add Little Value: '''1 point'''
*''Definition'': A entry copied from a public domain source such as .gov site - you MUST link to other articles and the article can not be of trivial nature (i.e. non-encyclopedic, non-educational or non-historical)

===Existing entry===
Quality edit of an existing entry: '''6 points'''
*''Definition'': A Quality Edit to an existing article includes at least two extra sentences, an additional reference, and the inclusion of an important or relevant fact.
*''Exception'': Entertainment-related* Quality Edits will receive only '''3 points'''.

Minor Edit of an existing entry: '''2 points'''
*''Definition'': A Minor Edit is an edit which does not meet the qualifications for a Quality Edit. These edits might include small formatting changes, spelling and grammatical changes and/or the addition of a category.

===Images===
Adding a quality public domain image to an entry: '''3pts'''
*''Beware:'' Copyright violations will result in harsh penalties!

===Templates===
New Template: '''3 points'''
*''Definition:'' The template must have at least 6 links.
===Redirects===
Redirecting a Page: '''1 point'''
*''Definition:'' Redirecting any page - whether the page was something different or not.

===Breaking News===
Breaking News Item: '''6 points'''
*''Definition:'' A Breaking news item is placed on the Main page with wiki links to Conservapedia articles and a link to the external reference article.
*''Exception:'' A non-administrator who submits an article to an administrator and the article is placed on the Main page will receive 4 point and the administrator will receive 2 points for adding the article and links. It is at the administrator's discretion whether to place the article on the Main page.

===Bonus Points===
*An additional bonus of '''3 points''' is awarded for adding a new entry on the "most-wanted" list, [[Special:Wantedpages]]
**'''Note carefully:''' The entry must be on ((Conservapedia:Contest4/Wanted|this list))
*An additional bonus of 1 point is awarded for adding a link to an entry on the [[Special:Deadendpages]], and thereby removing that entry from that list
*An edit to an existing entry may qualify as a New Entry if the edit is substantial enough.
*Adding a relevant photo to ''Breaking News'' will receive a '''2 points''' bonus.
*Blocking a vandal/sock/troll or reverting their vandalism: '''2 points'''.

===Notes===
An entry is "entertainment-related" if it relates to a subject not taught as core curriculum in a typical high school or college. This includes articles on sports, popular music, movies, and other entertaining but not necessarily educational subjects.
*''Exception'': Full credit will be given for notable or important historical subjects, and for political entries.
*''Exception'': Full credit will be given for reasonable subjects which are educational but not necessarily taught in a typical school.
[[Category:Conservapedia Contest]]

Conservapedia talk:Contest4

2008-03-13T19:56:09Z

DHayes: Since "Conservapedia:Contest4/Wanted" was deleted, I'm de-linking references to it. (It had been #7 on the Wanted List.)

'''NOTE:''' The contest will start Sunday at 12:00 a.m. - NOT 12:00 p.m.!
Many things need to be worked out until this is finalized. Among them are:
*How to do selection of teams[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Aschlafly&diff=365755&oldid=365750]
*What the role of team captain comes down to[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Contest3&diff=next&oldid=343798]
*How to ensure all players understand the rules[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Contest3&diff=next&oldid=343798]
*How to mandate clear point tallies[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Contest3&diff=next&oldid=343798]
*How to word the purpose of the contest[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Contest3&diff=next&oldid=343798]
*How to enact a system that would solve rule conflicts[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Contest3&diff=next&oldid=343798]
*How to rewrite the Wanted pages rule[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Contest3&diff=next&oldid=343798]
Please feel free to create a section for other concerns - and for more specifics on the above, simply visit the link to the right of each item, where clarification is given.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)
==Relating to Teams==
===Selections of Teams===
===Role of Team Captain===
I suggest that team captains have as small a role as possible. They should be selected based on who were the top contributers in the previous contest (in this case [[Contest3]]) and they should pick teams. After the Contest as started, however, there role should become nominal.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)

: I think the captains should have some responsibilities to watch and curb what team players are doing. Good sportsmanship starts with the captain in directing his team in the proper way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:58, 7 January 2008 (EST)
::I agree with Andy in this regard, we need accountability within the teams. [[User:Geo.plrd|Geo.]][[User_talk:Geo.plrd|Complain!]] 17:54, 10 January 2008 (EST)

I'd like my team captain to remind me (or help me) whenever I forget to claim credit for entries. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 09:20, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Haha - that's probably fine, although that should not be an official responsibility, as we can't ask all the two captains to go through each of their players contribs and check if the players are keeping track - and keep in mind the captains themselves are trying to get points.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:18, 12 January 2008 (EST)

==Relating to Rules==
===Ensuring the Rules are Understood===

===Point Tallies===
Perhaps the best way to do this is a general format. Geo and HelpJazz were kind enough to point out [[User:Iduan/Contest3|my layout]] as suitable - however I agree with them that it is far too specific. Perhaps something like this would be better:
<pre>
<nowiki>
==Type of Edit(Points the edit is Worth)(Number of this type made)==
links to diff (no organization necessary).
</nowiki>
</pre>--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)

==Purpose==
I believe the purpose of the contest is to improve Conservapedia by tapping into the competitive side of our editors--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)

: I agree. Like all sports competitions, however, fostering sportsmanship is also a goal. "Winning at any price" may be true in war, but not in good-spirited competitions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:59, 7 January 2008 (EST)

:: Right. This contest should be fun and competitive, but everyone needs to keep in mind that the ultimate goal is to improve Conservapedia. ~ [[User:SharonS|Sharon]][[User talk:SharonS|Talk]] 09:11, 8 January 2008 (EST)

==Specific Point Issues==
Please place all disagreements with regards to point values here (i.e. if you think "x" should get 20 points instead of 5) - and try to separate by section--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:43, 6 January 2008 (EST)
===Active(3)===
====Wanted Pages Rule====
I think that in order to avoid cheating - only wanted pages that exist at the start of the contest should be allowed to count - these pages would be recorded on a page (and the page would be protected) to ensure accuracy. That way we won't have people artificially creating wanted pages they can create--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)

: I don't know that have to limit it that sharply. But obviously creating wanted pages simply to extinguish them is silly and unacceptable.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:00, 8 January 2008 (EST)

: I think Iduan's idea of putting all the wanted pages on a list would work pretty well. I can't really think of anything better. ~ [[User:SharonS|Sharon]][[User talk:SharonS|Talk]] 09:11, 8 January 2008 (EST)

: Personally, I don't think it's necessary. It is understood at this point what a wanted page is and the honor system should suffice. The difficulty last time was with a concerted effort to bend the rules. With the spirit of the contest being more clear this time, I don't think you would run into the same issues. Treat everyone like trusted positive contributors, and chances are they will live up to your expectations. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 13:51, 10 January 2008 (EST)

::I intend to claim credit for any new "wanted entries" which spring into being because they are legitimately linked.

::If anyone can claim credit for "wikifying" an article, and any of their links push 3-link page over the line (so it becomes a 4-link page), then I would think this has now become a legitimate "most wanted" page.

::Otherwise, I'd prefer to see a manually-created list of desired articles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 09:25, 12 January 2008 (EST)

====Scoring Examples====
Perhaps we should have links "guideline" articles which meet the minimum qualifications for each level. This way there would be something specific to look at when there are questions. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:15, 7 January 2008 (EST)

:Could the judges review '''each''' players claimed credits every day? This would ensure that no one can make mistakes or use a strange interpretation of the rules to gain advantage. Remember last time, when somebody just did a copy and paste of several hundred short definitions?

:I'd say that the entire group of definitions should be assembled into a one-page [[glossary]] (with redirects from each term). Or maybe the glossary itself should judged the same as any other article. I don't think each glossary entry should stand alone, and I don't think players should get even 1 point for creating a page simply by pasting something. I could write a computer program to do that (in fact I have started to design it already). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 09:32, 12 January 2008 (EST)

::I'm going to stick my neck out, a bit too far, perhaps, and suggest that copy and pasted entries not count as ''anything'', or perhaps 0.5 points, 1 at most. Of course, the former is the most optimal. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 10:27, 12 January 2008 (EST)
Ed - so far there's only one judge - and I think asking her to look at each person's contributions every day might be too much--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:13, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:::Speaking from experience from the last contest, it's just too much work to judge each and every entry. I believe the first contest was judged this way and it took more time to judge than it did to perform the contest. For this last contest Geo and I individually checkted a random sampling (of, roughly 10% of each person's contributions) and browsed over the rest. Then if we thought we needed to look further we did. That seemed to work very well, especially because, for the most part, everyone was honest with their interpretations. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 13:22, 12 January 2008 (EST)

Yes, checking a random sampling is a good way to review. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 13:31, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok - the random sampling should be fine - although every day is still tough - as long as we don't put too much strain on Bethany then I'm fine--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 13:37, 12 January 2008 (EST)

==== Copy & Pasted pages ====

I'm of the opinion that these should score one point, not two. The phenomenally miniscule amount of effort that is required for these, and the fact that they are almost always allowed to remain dead-ends and such until after a contest… --[[User:AngryCommunist|AngryCommunist]] 16:12, 9 January 2008 (EST)
:Ok, I've changed it--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:16, 12 January 2008 (EST)
::Thank you. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 15:16, 12 January 2008 (EST)

====Double counting====
I think there should a rule which states that your article can only fall into one category. In other words, you can't claim credit for creating an article, then again claim credit for editing that same article. I don't think this has been done before, but it theoretically could be done under the rules. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 14:48, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:That would severely discourage working for depth and quality. The moment you create an article and passed the mark for "Quality new entry" (2 paragraphs, 3 refs, bunch of links, category), there would be zero incentive to improve that article any further.
:I can see where you're coming from: Endless tweaking with minor edits to boost your score isn't cool. But your suggestion seems to be quite... radical.
:(Unless you meant filing the same ''edit'' under multiple categories. Then I misunderstood.) --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 15:08, 12 January 2008 (EST)

::I don't mean that you should only keep your very first score, but I don't think it's that radical to suggest that if someone creates a QNE that they should not get any points for fixing all their own spelling, say. And if you started out with a Minor new article but later improved it, there's no problem with claiming credit for the article as a whole. The only time there's "no incentive" is when you create a quality entry, but if it's already quality, how many more points could you earn anyway? If you can earn substantial points by improving it, it probably wasn't a valid quality new entry to start with. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 15:24, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:::My entire reply can be summed up with three links: [[Homosexuality]], [[Atheism]], [[Theory of Evolution]]. ;)
:::But I'll give a less silly version, anyway. The issue is that "quality" in the context of the contest means "''two full-length paragraphs, three relevant citations, several links to other entries, some in-depth content and designations of category''". That's really not much. I could easily reach "quality" level within minutes if I set my mind to it - without getting close to having an actually good article.
:::I could normally start with a quality article and add more pieces as I see fit. For example, our article about [[Barack Obama]] spends more than three full paragraphs only on the intro and his early life. Add a few more references to that, and you already got a QNE, so edits beyond that suddenly don't count anymore?
:::I could live with your suggestion (and it would help against potential abuse such as spending fifty edits to fix one typo each), but for it to actually lead to a better Conservapedia, the "Quality New Entry" (and "Normal New Entry") criteria would have to be WAY higher, or we'd need more levels. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 15:45, 12 January 2008 (EST)
::::You make a good point. Either "extreme" is flawed: if we let people make as many edits as they want, they could intentionally build their article over time to inflate their score (and how would you ever know?) but on the other hand, if we don't allow more than 15 points (plus bonus when applicable), then there's no incentive to improve it. How about this (and since the contest starts tomorrow it won't be included in this one anyway): You get points for whatever level article it is. If you improve, you don't get points for editing, but it bumps your article up to the next level. Then, once you get to a Quality article, every paragraph past 2 is worth 1 point. Maybe not those numbers, but something along those lines. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 20:11, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:::::That sounds quite fascinating, actually! A system that doesn't reward ''edits'', but rather overall ''improvements''! There are a few issues to be worked out, depending on how you implement it, but the basic idea is very sound and should definitely be kept in mind for the next round! --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 20:17, 12 January 2008 (EST)

====Handicap====
I wonder if a handicap should be offered for teams with members who don't have upload, edit and/or blocking privileges? I don't know how one would quantify that, but some editors can literally edit twice as much as others. Just something to think about, not necessarily something that needs solved for this contest. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 14:48, 12 January 2008 (EST)

===Resolved===
==== Redirects should be very low value ====
I am not even sure why this is controversial. [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia%3AContest4&diff=365801&oldid=365799] [[User:StephenW|StephenW]] 23:46, 6 January 2008 (EST)
:Firstly, the reason I reverted was because the change wasn't brought up here first - and in order to AVOID a bunch of reverts we should try and discuss point changes before doing them. I do think redirects should get two points, though, because while it is easy to do a redirect, it is just as easy to, say, add a period to an article, which is also worth two points (minor edit).--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:49, 6 January 2008 (EST)
::You're the only one reverting. Sounds like you should have lowered the value of adding a comma to an article. [[User:StephenW|StephenW]] 23:51, 6 January 2008 (EST)
:::Again - I reverted because it wasn't brought up here first. And per precedent the value of minor edits has alway been 2 points--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:53, 6 January 2008 (EST)
::::Fine, if you want to vet minor points on the talk page first, you are basically asking me not to collaborate with you. Just put a notice at the top of the page "This is a work by Iduan, please do not edit, it's mine." [[User:StephenW|StephenW]] 00:08, 7 January 2008 (EST)
:::::I reverted you because all changes should be discussed here first. You started discussing here - I said I disagreed with you - but I'm not the authority on this - when more people start commenting on this talk page then it might end up that we do make redirects worth one point.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 11:41, 7 January 2008 (EST)
::::::I agree that redirects should be less than 2 points. It's easier than even copy/pasting an article.[[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:15, 7 January 2008 (EST)
:::::::Ok, though then should we make minor edits less than two points? Because really it's incredibly easy ot just find an article that, say, doesn't have the title bolded in the intro-sentence, and then change that and claim 2 points. --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:09, 7 January 2008 (EST)
::::::::Personally, I never counted bolding on its own as a minor edit; the article would need to have some other change as well. You may wish to consider implementing a similar standard. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 23:04, 7 January 2008 (EST)

::::::::I should add as well that as someone who does a lot of redirects, that I also believe they should be 1 point. A redirect is usually an afterthought to help those who use this site find what they are looking for more easily, but the thought that goes into it is not the same as for article creation or for true edits which should, at least in theory, include reading through the article. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 13:57, 10 January 2008 (EST)

====Quality New Article====
There is a 14-point difference between a QNA and the next level down. I think this level should be lowered (to, say, 15 points) or raise the requirements a bit. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 19:15, 7 January 2008 (EST)
:I agree--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:10, 7 January 2008 (EST)

==Placement of this page==
Shouldn't this be [[Conservapedia:Contest 4]]? --[[User:AngryCommunist|AngryCommunist]] 23:24, 6 January 2008 (EST)
:Probably so. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:26, 6 January 2008 (EST)
::Thank you :). --[[User:AngryCommunist|AngryCommunist]] 23:29, 6 January 2008 (EST)
:::Yes I suppose you're right - I was actually going to make it this - but I noticed that we had done [[Contest3]] in the namespace - so in order to avoid any conflict I figured I should go with the precedent - but in hindsight I should've placed it here - thanks for the heads up.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:37, 6 January 2008 (EST)

==Judges==
If you have judges or something of the sort, put me on the list!! --[[User:BethanyS|~BCS]][[User talk:BethanyS|Talk2'''ME''']] 17:21, 7 January 2008 (EST)

: You'd be great! I "second" your "motion" to be a judge.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:01, 8 January 2008 (EST)

If there is a need for an additional judge, then I could fill that role. I can go wherever I can best be used (judge or participant). [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 14:23, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Players ==

So, can I participate? --[[User:AngryCommunist|AngryCommunist]] 16:11, 9 January 2008 (EST)
:The teams will be eventually selected through a draft by captains (although like last time, we'll have a "those interested" area where you can put yoru name) - although this won't be for a while as we have to work out scoring, rules etc.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:40, 9 January 2008 (EST)
::When does the contest start? --[[User:AngryCommunist|AngryCommunist]] 21:49, 9 January 2008 (EST)
:::There's no date yet - we have to get all the rules straightened out first--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:52, 9 January 2008 (EST)
::::That's cool, thanks for informing me. --[[User:AngryCommunist|AngryCommunist]] 22:26, 9 January 2008 (EST)

== A thought on balance ==

I believe it should be considered that in the event that one of the captains finds that through no fault of his own that he has fewer participants than the other team by a number of at least 2, that the last player picked by the captain with extra players be transferred to the team that finds itself short. That should help to keep things balanced and, I believe, coincides with our belief in fair play. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 20:56, 11 January 2008 (EST)
:(I think you're talking about like a mid-contest thing here): Assuming that the players who have left the team have their points officially discarded, then I would agree with that.--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 21:03, 11 January 2008 (EST)

On the subject of balance, shouldn't the team member have the various rights currently restricted conferred upon them? I, for one, can't edit after 12 A.M. until whenever editing is turned back on. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 21:35, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Agreed. Edit rights should be a given, at least... Helplessly watching the others edit like crazy isn't too cool. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 07:15, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Overnight edit privileges are earned, and not given simply because of a contest. It's easy to prepare entries offline and simply upload when general editing is turned back on. The top pick on my team lacks overnight editing rights so there is nothing unfair about this, and other team members that have overnight editing rights rarely use them in the early morning hours.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:23, 13 January 2008 (EST)
:If it would be so absolutely no problem, then surely you could go a week without editing at night? ;)
:I'm not arguing that ''a team'' is handicapped (Last time I checked, I didn't even ''have'' a team yet! It's possible that I'm discussing with my future Captain here!), but rather that ''individuals'' are handicapped by this. The argument about "prepare it offline" doesn't quite work because it adds work and time that could be better spent otherwise.
:But whatever. We'll just have to do without edit, upload, block, edit breaking news, add-links-without-CAPTCHA, rollback, edit-protected, and move rights then. "It's just a flesh wound!" ;) --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 07:30, 13 January 2008 (EST)

== Draft ==

Shouldn't this be happening now? --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 16:43, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:It is, Brian has already selected his first candidate - whenever andy gets back he'll select two. There are many hours left in the day--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:44, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:: I'll be back in an hour. BrianCo can take his time picking his next two.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:46, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:::Brian - don't pick yet - apparently I didn't explain the draft well enough: In order to ensure that each team has an about equal number of players - Brian will draft one pick, then Andy will draft two, and then Brian will draft two - and each captain will continue to draft two until finished. This ensures that the maximum difference between the teams is only one player--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 16:54, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:::: I'm back. Sorry, I didn't realize I could pick 2! I'll pick my second now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:26, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Templates ==

Do userboxen count towards the template score? --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 18:45, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:No--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:45, 12 January 2008 (EST)
::Didn't think so. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 19:08, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Team pages ==

Shouldn't these be assembled now? And can we ''please'' have sensible names for the teams this time? :) --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 22:16, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:Slow down Make tommorow - the captains aren't even done picking the teams--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:18, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Copying issue ==

I think we need to revise the copying-from-federal-government point. There is nothing wrong with copying from government sites. We're here to improve this resource, not reward creative writing. A quality entry can and should copy extensively from a .gov (federal government) site rather than rewrite the material in poor form. We commissioned .gov work and we own it and we should use it. Unless there is an objection, I'm going to clarify the "1 point" (penalty) provision.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:42, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:I do think that you should get less for copying, but not as significantly less as we're doing now - for what it's worth I say go ahead!--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:49, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:: Valuable copying is ... valuable! In [[free enterprise]] it's not just how hard one works, but how valuable one's work is. Cleverness is rewarded. We don't want people rewording stuff and introducing mistakes simply to earn more points.

:: The credits for adding links to lectures (and also terms) should be removed. That was a source of abuse last time. Also, why are we giving 3 points for images added NOT to entries??? If no objection, I'll make these changes now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:58, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:::The image points were completely my fault - i just remember some confusion last time- and I just did the wrong thing to try and clear that up - sorry. I'm for you on everything (although are you saying that copying should get as much as writing?)--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:00, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:::: The key is how much the copying adds value here. I'll take the copying of high quality material (from a federal .gov site) over poor quality writing any day. Wouldn't you? The contest is not to reward effort. It is to reward value.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:05, 12 January 2008 (EST)
:::::Ok, fair enough I suppose--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:07, 12 January 2008 (EST)
::::::The only thing I would worry about with what you did is - well we don't have a scale for value, so probably no one will say their copied entry adds little value. I do like everything else you did though - especially with the "and not entirely copied" lines - maybe with that we can make people remember to do links--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:14, 12 January 2008 (EST)

:::::::Wait… linking counts as "original content"? --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 18:27, 13 January 2008 (EST)
::::::::No - but if people are going in and adding their own original content then they might remember to go in and look for links--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 18:29, 13 January 2008 (EST)

== New ruleset ==

I protest the new provisions to protect slackers who trawl through .gov sites to artificially inflate their score. It's the wiki equivalent of a Google bomb. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 23:19, 12 January 2008 (EST)
==Wanted Pages List==
Ok everyone, there might be 1 or two mistakes in this list, but it was really frustrating to format so I didn't really have time to go over it twice. ((Conservapedia:Contest4/Wanted))--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:31, 12 January 2008 (EST)

== Rewrite? ==

How much is a rewrite worth? It's not a new article, but it's also more than a regular edit. For example, I found [[percent]] to be somewhat too technical and rewrote it for clarity and accessibility, leaving basically only the category intact. --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 08:38, 13 January 2008 (EST)
:Actually, I guess that's what the "''An edit to an existing entry may qualify as a New Entry if the edit is substantial enough.''" rule is for... --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 08:57, 13 January 2008 (EST)

== Userbox ==

Friends, you can now use template:Contest4 on your user page, under the userbox heading, to display your teamname and points for you! The format is like this: <nowiki>{{Contest4|Team Name + "Member"|Points}}, so for me it reads, {{Contest4|Team Freedom Member|132}}.</nowiki> Hope you enjoy!-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 23:47, 13 January 2008 (EST)

==Cats for images==
How many points for adding categories to images? I had 61 on 1/17. The points list 3 for an image, 2 for a minor edit - my feeling s/b these are worth 1 pt each. --[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 10:18, 18 January 2008 (EST)
:The points guide says 2 points for adding a category/categories. They're perhaps harder to categorize than a straightforward article would be, so I think they should score 2 just as though they were an article. [[Image:User Fox.png|10px]] [[User:Fox|Fox]] ([[User talk:Fox|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Fox|contribs]]) 10:21, 18 January 2008 (EST)
==Challenge==
I tried to talk about this to Learn Together on his user talk page, but for some reason either he didn't have time or he didn't want to talk. Nonetheless, I feel it's a relatively important issue, so... Learn together is occasionally giving himself four points if he makes what he considers a good enough minor edit, despite the fact that it would seem that no such allowance exists in the rules. Now granted, he's also cutting himself short by occasionally giving himself one point. Given that the contest is almost over - and it would be hard for users to go back and change everything, I would like to propose that all minor edits be worth exactly 2 points, and all quality edits be worth 6, and then perhaps after the contest we could discuss a "regular edit" type thing. Judges?--[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 22:03, 19 January 2008 (EST)

== Well, shoot! ==

I thought we had today until midnight! I guess I should read the instructions :-) ? Ugh, I'm sorry...-[[User:MexMax|MexMax]] 13:20, 20 January 2008 (EST)

== Thoughts after the contest ==

Since Andy is apparently already about to set up a ''fifth'' contest, I figure I better post my own thoughts here now. There were a few good parts, but personally, the bad parts overshadowed them. I'm sure Andy will disagree with me on MOST points (thus making this post effectively pointless), but I still feel like voicing them because I don't want it to look as if everything was happy sunshine.
#I acknowledge that Iduan tried his best to prevent abuse. Kudos for that. Especially the "copy-pasting gives 1 point" rule was a GREAT change. However, most of this hard work was suddenly undermined when Andy introduced the extremely fuzzy "not ''entirely'' copied" addition that could lead to copy-pasted entries counting for as much as 15 points (and 4 points at the very least!).
#*Suggestion: Be consequent and undo the fuzzy-maybe-not-quite-completely-copied stuff. This isn't about what "adds value", it's about time vs. points. When you put your mind to winning the contest, you will try to use the method that gives you the most points per time. If I find a .gov article, add some wikilinks and a category (estimated time: one or two minutes tops), that should ''not'' give four or more points. If you stumble over a pile of such articles-to-be, you can get hundreds of points in ridiculously little time. I'm sorry, but that's exactly what the rule tried to prevent. It's called abuse (or "gaming the system" if you want to avoid strong words).
#*I also challenge the assertion that rabid copy-pasting adds value to the encyclopedia. It's spam. Tons of copy-pasted stuff falls into two categories: "Way Too Long" or "Laughably Short and Technical". Both results lead to articles that are very hard to improve without completely scrapping the old ones first. Some ships have ''much'' longer articles than some people who ''wrote history'' - simply because some Public Domain source had incredibly long and detailed accounts of certain ships (random samples: [[Advance-6]] (1570 words) versus [[John von Neumann]] (214 words, including section headers)). That alone should illustrate that something is off.
#*Duplicating content (and worse: duplicating content without pointing at where it came from or indicating that it's copied) is useless. Scrap it and just add an external link to the glossary or source. People can read it there, too. Have a link collection. Like "Conservapedia's Guide to Government Glossaries" (You could call it "CP G3" - fetchy!).
#Timing was a MAJOR issue. The contest was suddenly rushed onto people, leaving little time to finetune the rules or even pick teams.
#The "Quality New Entry" bar was WAY too low, especially when you were allowed to copy-paste. Alternatively, the reward was WAY too high for it (especially when you consider that just one or two more references can make the difference between 6 and 15 points).
#Some players were flat-out handicapped to ridiculous degrees. When you got members who can't even upload a picture or ''edit'' early in the morning or late at night (which were the only times I was online on some days that week - meaning that I simply couldn't participate on those days), it's hard not to feel completely inadequate. Sure, both sides had handicapped players, but it still led to a two-class system and to things like "The night is the only time I would be around!".
#*Suggestion: Either acknowledge that handicap in the scoring or at least give people EDIT rights. That's not some sort of epic demand in my eyes - it's the MediaWiki DEFAULT SETTING. Speaking of which, I spent my time editing on Wikipedia. I improved some of the articles there and had discussions that led to more in-depth improvements. Nobody loomed over my head and told me that I hadn't earned some mysterious "right". Quite refreshing!
#(It's minor, but since I'm at it...) Somewhat connected since sysops clearly have it easier: Don't expect me to undo vandalism sprees anymore. It gets ridiculous when the software punishes me for it by adding YET another step to the Undo process: There is a CAPTCHA-ish math test each time an edit introduces a new link - and when undoing page-blanking, I usually do exactly that. Sorry, not worth it. I'll just leave that for the people who merely have to hit "Rollback" and do with one click what I need several page-loads for.
#After the halftime mark, I had suddenly fallen off the scoring table. And you know what that meant? It meant that all my work up to that point had suddenly become completely worthless. It suddenly didn't matter anymore that I had spent three hours creating a shiny periodic table or that I had improved other articles. For the contest, I counted exactly as much as somebody who hadn't made a single edit: Not at all. Sorry, not feeling the love. (Especially bad when it's combined with the "You don't deserve to edit when we're not around to monitor you" issue.)
I think that's about it... hopefully it is - this post is long enough already.

Overall, I believe that it's possible to create a contest that encourages quality and not abuse (HelpJazz had a very interesting idea on this very page for example). However, this would take time, and it would require certain sysops to actually let go of their game-the-system goldmines.

Personally, I actually don't think that such contests do much good on the grand scale. Fuzzy rules, arbitrary scoring, implied emphasis on doing instead of discussing, the sense of being in the same team, but not in the same league... I believe that we should just go back to freestyle editing without wasting time to fill out silly scorecards.

Rephrasing my favorite Demotivator (no link - don't want the software to rub in that I'm not a trusted user by giving me a CAPTCHA) poster: "If being in some contest and a pat on the back are needed to motivate you, you probably have a very boring task. The kind robots will be doing soon." --[[User:Jenkins|Jenkins]] 19:08, 21 January 2008 (EST)