Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Faith

2007-02-23T22:53:23Z

Blackdruid:

I notice the revert basicly leaves out the entry I made concerning Christ words about a Roman Pagan Centurion and his faith. Guess Christs own opinion on the matter is not good enough.

I completely disagree, Any religion requires faith. --[[User:TimSvendsen|TimSvendsen]] 15:46, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Good point tim, while most religions might not actually use the term faith, the concept is quite widespread.

--[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 15:57, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Tim and Ben, you don't support your claims with anything. "Faith" is unique to Christianity, and the term is not genuinely used by other religions.

The powerful Greek language was essential to express the concept of faith. Not even English can describe it well.

'''pivstiß''' is the Greek word for faith, and it takes Strong's version many words to explain it:<ref>http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4102&version=kjv</ref>

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1. relating to God
1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
2. relating to Christ
1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
3. the religious beliefs of Christians
4. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2. fidelity, faithfulness
1. the character of one who can be relied on

----
It is false to claim that faith is only a christian concept. Other religions may not call it faith, but they still have it. For example: a muslim suicide bomber is not going to bomb anything if he does not have faith that it will send him to heaven. --[[User:TimSvendsen|TimSvendsen]] 10:59, 4 February 2007 (EST)

'''Sources:''' <references/>

==American Heritage Dictionary==
says:

'''faith,''' noun: 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at ''belief,'' ''trust.'' 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often '''Faith''' ''Christianity'' The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.[http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/F0018400.html]

In other words, according to one dictionary, anyway, the word has more than one meaning. It is not being misapplied in the phrase "the Muslim faith," it is simply a different meaning of the word. This article, presently, would seem to be about the fourth meaning. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:37, 3 February 2007 (EST)

::Neurocat's posting was misleading in claiming that "The concept of faith exists in nearly all major religions. Faith is mentioned in the New Testament, the Old Testament, and the Koran. Faith is also a well established part of so-called "New Age" religions, such as Wicca."

::Faith, historically, was uniquely Christian. The entry demonstrates that. Others may try to make faith synonymous with belief, but that is not its original meaning. Muslims "submit" to Allah rather than have faith in Allah. The very reason for an entry here is to be precise. Broader (and less precise) colloquial meanings can be found elsewhere.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:36, 20 February 2007 (EST)

::If the page is to describe Faith as a "historically uniquely Christian" term, there should be some evidence provided to that effect. Otherwise, the page is less accurate, not more precise. Since the American Heritage Dictionary does not say that definition #4 is more valid than any other, there is no reason to assert that the other definitions are less accurate.

:::Neurocat, please sign your comments with the signature icon (second from the right in the row of click-on boxes).

:::A dictionary merely reflects common usage and, increasingly, political correctness. An entry here called [[Merriam-Webster]] criticizes some entries in the dictionary. You are free to post anti-Christian views but only if you support them with references. If you think there is a Muslim "faith in Allah," then you need to support your view or else the page will be reverted. By the way, the Koran does not support your view. It calls for "submission to Allah." The term "faith" is not a synomym for belief or submission.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:55, 20 February 2007 (EST)

::::I take exception to the word "merely." It's hardly a trivial job. And one of the reasons I like to cite the American Heritage dictionary here is precisely because, while not politically conservative, it was created in opposition to what was seen as the overly-permissive and overly-descriptive Merriam-Webster. A dictionary is a good starting point. Any group of people that has a sort of private definition of a word that does not match what is generally understood, it is going to be counterproductive to use that definition in discourse with others outside the group.

::::AHD says that "faith" has five meanings. People who refer to "the Muslim faith" are not wrong, they are just using meaning number 5. The article needs to be clearer on this point. For example, it could open by saying "Christian faith is a unique concept that means trust or complete confidence in something unseen. Although the word "faith" can be used to refer to any body of beliefs, other religions do not have any concept equivalent to Christian faith."

::::To insist on "faith" has having only meaning number 4 would be like insisting that the British naval power during the Napoleonic era was equal to the number of foot-pounds per minute exerted by the force of the wind on the combined area of all its sails. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 13:34, 21 February 2007 (EST)

:::Can you then please post a reference that cites that the original usage of the word "faith" is Christian? If you are going to call the dictionary into question as a source, you cannot selectively choose which entries you believe and which you do not believe. If you wish to cite a specific dictionary entry as incorrect, you must support that with fact. Perhaps it would be better to clarify that, in your view, the "original" meaning of the word "faith" is Christian, but current modern usage is different. After all, you do intend this to be a factual, unbiased conservapedia, not a collection of unsubstantiated right-wing beliefs. True? --[[User:Neurocat|Neurocat]] 09:48, 21 February 2007 (EST)

:::I added a common dictionary definition of faith, with reference link, to clarify the issue for readers. Furthermore, the first line of the entry seems to be unclear - if the word Faith descends from a Latin word meaning "to trust", how can the original meaning be purely Christian? Certainly the Greeks and Romans used the term to describe something other than a Christian "faith". Should we remove it? --[[User:Neurocat|Neurocat]] 10:00, 21 February 2007 (EST)

== Re: faith in other religions ==

I just edited the article and included a source on the concept of faith in Islam. A few short minutes of Googling turned up a scholarly article from the 1950s about the importance of faith to Islam. Also, does anybody know how many of the mentions of faith in the Old Testament are in the parts that make up the Torah? That would go a long way toward identifying the importance of faith in the Jewish religion.

Finally, I agree completely with those who are saying that the concept of faith is common to any theistic religion. Without any exceptions that I know of (correct me if I'm wrong), any religion that requires belief in a god requires faith, since there is no evidence for any of these gods and faith is belief in the unseen/unobservable. --[[User:Haveyouseenmypants|Haveyouseenmypants]] 18:20, 21 February 2007 (EST)

*Not a rhetorical question: how much similarity is there between the Muslim concept translated as "faith" and the Christian concept of "faith?" It seems to me that in the Arabian Nights the Caliph of Baghdad is referred to as "Defender of the Faithful," and certainly Moslems refer to non-Moslems as "Infidels" (i.e. "Unfaithful"), but I don't know that the concepts are necessarily the same. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 18:37, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Talk:Thomas Jefferson

2007-02-22T03:59:17Z

Blackdruid:

I hate to point out the hipocrasy here that while Wikipedia seems to be okay to referance for facts that are supported by the status qou here. The same wikipedia is refuted as being a referance for those who are supporting a viewpoint not in popular opinion here. Either Wikipedia must be allowed to be cited or it cannot. Example Referance 1 of this page is allowed but referance 3 is not.

Also for the record I am not attacking Christianity, but I am attacking the use of it to further an agenda claiming to be christian when it is the furthest from the truth. The last true Christian Died on a cross ~2007 years ago and the lesson he taught have been twisted into a mockery of what he ment them to be.

Faith

2007-02-21T16:52:49Z

Blackdruid:

Faith is a uniquely Christian concept that means trust or complete confidence in something unseen. The term lacks a precise definition. In English the word comes from the Latin word "fidere", meaning "to trust".

The concept of faith does not exist in other major religions. While faith is mentioned 229 in the New Testament, faith is mentioned only twice in the Old Testament (KJV). In an English translation of the Koran (Islam), the concept of submission to Allah is mentioned 11 times, but faith in Allah is only mentioned once.

The term "faith" is often used to describe the belief systems of other religions.<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith</ref> Furthermore, it should be noted that in addition to the opinion that the term is uniquely Christian, modern usage of the word "faith" includes many definitions, which are supported by current dictionaries of the English language:<ref>http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith</ref>

:1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

:2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

:3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

:4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

:5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

:6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.

:7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.

:8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved. —Idiom

:9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

Anyone who believes in somthing that cannot be factualy proven has faith. This any religion on earth has faith including Atheist. As God or God(s) cannot be proven or disproven, it is an act of faith to believe in them.

Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And
I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham,
Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be
cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 8:10-12)
----

'''Sources:''' <references/>

Thomas Jefferson

2007-02-21T05:06:58Z

Blackdruid:

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) was the third President of the United States and often credited as the author of the [[Declaration of Independence]], though key portions of that document were simply taken from the [[Virginia Declaration of Rights]].

Jefferson was a prominent architect, inventor and scientist. His presidency had significant failures, and is best known for doubling the area of the United States with the controversial [[Louisiana Purchase]] from France.

Though Jefferson did not describe his beliefs in that manner, many textbooks and online resources claim that he was a [[deist]].<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deist_thinkers</ref>

With regard to Christianity, Jefferson admired the ethical and moral teachings of Jesus, but did not believe in the divinity of Christ. He produced a compilation "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels," familiarly known as "The Jefferson Bible," in which he included the passages which he felt described Jesus' life and teachings, while omitting references to the miracles and to Jesus' divinity. In an 1803 letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, he stated:
:I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of [the Christian religion]. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.<ref>Jefferson, Thomas, April 21, 1803: Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush[http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html]</ref>

"I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the
introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and
imprisoned.<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson</ref> What has been the effect of this coercion?To make half the
world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
world." -- Thomas Jefferson Notes on the State of Virginia 1787 <ref>http://www.lva.lib.va.us/whatwedo/k12/psd/colony/tjnotes.htm</ref>'''reference needed''' '''References 3 and 4 do not authenticate the quote'''

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." Reason is the tool to use to change opinions—not censorship." 1801 inaugral speech
----

'''References:''' <references/>

Thomas Jefferson

2007-02-21T04:40:41Z

Blackdruid:

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) was the third President of the United States and often credited as the author of the [[Declaration of Independence]], though key portions of that document were simply taken from the [[Virginia Declaration of Rights]].

Jefferson was a prominent architect, inventor and scientist. His presidency had significant failures, and is best known for doubling the area of the United States with the controversial [[Louisiana Purchase]] from France.

Though Jefferson did not describe his beliefs in that manner, many textbooks and online resources claim that he was a [[deist]].<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deist_thinkers</ref>

With regard to Christianity, Jefferson admired the ethical and moral teachings of Jesus, but did not believe in the divinity of Christ. He produced a compilation "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels," familiarly known as "The Jefferson Bible," in which he included the passages which he felt described Jesus' life and teachings, while omitting references to the miracles and to Jesus' divinity. In an 1803 letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, he stated:
:I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of [the Christian religion]. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.<ref>Jefferson, Thomas, April 21, 1803: Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush[http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html]</ref>

"I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the
introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and
imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion?To make half the
world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
world." -- Thomas Jefferson Notes on the State of Virginia <ref> http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm</ref><ref>http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html</ref>'''reference needed'''

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." Reason is the tool to use to change opinions—not censorship." 1801 inaugral speech
----

'''References:''' <references/>

Thomas Jefferson

2007-02-21T04:36:17Z

Blackdruid:

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) was the third President of the United States and often credited as the author of the [[Declaration of Independence]], though key portions of that document were simply taken from the [[Virginia Declaration of Rights]].

Jefferson was a prominent architect, inventor and scientist. His presidency had significant failures, and is best known for doubling the area of the United States with the controversial [[Louisiana Purchase]] from France.

Though Jefferson did not describe his beliefs in that manner, many textbooks and online resources claim that he was a [[deist]].<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deist_thinkers</ref>

With regard to Christianity, Jefferson admired the ethical and moral teachings of Jesus, but did not believe in the divinity of Christ. He produced a compilation "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels," familiarly known as "The Jefferson Bible," in which he included the passages which he felt described Jesus' life and teachings, while omitting references to the miracles and to Jesus' divinity. In an 1803 letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, he stated:
:I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of [the Christian religion]. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.<ref>Jefferson, Thomas, April 21, 1803: Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush[http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html]</ref>

"I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the
introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and
imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion?To make half the
world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
world." -- Thomas Jefferson <ref> http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm</ref>'''reference needed'''

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." Reason is the tool to use to change opinions—not censorship." 1801 inaugral speech
----

'''References:''' <references/>

Thomas Jefferson

2007-02-21T04:12:36Z

Blackdruid:

Faith

2007-02-21T03:53:57Z

Blackdruid:

Faith

2007-02-21T03:53:28Z

Blackdruid:

Boy Scouts of America

2007-02-21T02:39:35Z

Blackdruid: /* References */

The Boys Scouts of America was founded on February 8, 1910. The movement began two years earlier in England, where Sir Robert Baden-Powell founded it. He had been a hero of the South African Boer Wars.

Today the Boy Scouts are the largest voluntary youth group in the world. Its membership exceeds 25 million.

Baden-Powell wrote in a pamphlet "Scouting & Christianity" (1917): "Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

Here is the Scout Oath:

<blockquote>On my honor, I will do my best: To do my duty to God and my
country, and to obey the Scout Law, To help other people at all
times. To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally
straight.</blockquote>

Many presidents have praised and addressed the Boy Scouts over the years. President Calvin Coolidge said this to a group of Boy Scouts in 1924:

<blockquote>The three fundamentals of scouthood are reverence for nature ... reverence for law ... and reverence for God. It is hard to see how a great man can be an atheist. Doubters do not achieve. ... No man realizes his full possibilities unless he has the deep conviction that life is eternally important, and that his work, well done, is part of an unending plan.</blockquote>

In designing the Scouting program, Baden-Powell drew ideas from the Japanese warrior's ''bushido'' code, on educational methods of the African Zulu tribes. on the Victorian "ragged schools" movement, and the educational methods of Montessori.<ref>Baden-Powell, ''Scouting for Boys"[http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0192805479&id=LdtVxcFpWFQC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&ots=j1TxsQhuis&dq=baden-powell+scouting+bushido&sig=6nhFG3I_TD7AB0mP7lzSHebCT7c#PPA44,M1]</ref><ref>[http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-bp.htm Robert Baden-Powell as an Educational Innovator</ref>

No concrete evidence exists that Baden-Powell was gay (he destroyed as much of his personal correspondence as possible before his death); however, several recent biographers, like Michael Rosenthal in The Character Factory: Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts and the Imperatives of Empire (1984), argue that he was a repressed homosexual.

Much of the evidence for Baden-Powell's homosexuality can be found in Tim Jeal's monumental and definitive biography, Baden-Powell (1989), in which Jael states frankly:

"The evidence available points inexorably to the conclusion that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual, (... but) he managed to follow Plato's prescription glorifying the love of man for man, or man for boy, while remaining physically chaste."

Jeal gives several detailed instances of Baden-Powell's pleasure in seeing naked boys, his emotional enjoyement gained from living alongside them, and his delight in contemplating the clandestine "artistic" nude photography of boys which was at that time circulating among English pederastic public school circles.

==References==

Source: Aldrich R. & Wotherspoon G., Who's Who in Gay and Lesbian History, from Antiquity to WWII, Routledge, London, 2001 - et alii
<references/>