Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

User:Austenbosten

2018-01-23T00:38:07Z

Austenbosten:

User:Austenbosten

2018-01-23T00:36:37Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Monarchist]]

* I am [[Catholic]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
* St Pope Pius X
* Orestes Brownson
* St Augustine

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Roman Catholic}}
{{User Creationist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

Conservapedia:Userboxes/Religion

2014-02-08T14:40:44Z

Austenbosten: /* Religion */

===Religion===
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|{{UB|Washington1}}
|-
|{{UB|JP2 saint}}
|-
|{{UB|noforcedreligion}}
|-
|{{UB|Bible just book}}
|-
|{{UB|Catholic}}
|-
|{{UB|UnitedMethodist}}
|-
|{{UB|Presbyterian}}
|-
|{{UB|Quaker}}
|-
|{{UB|Lutheran}}
|-
|{{UB|Baptist}}
|-
|{{UB|Protestant}}
|-
|{{UB|Anglican}}
|-
|{{UB|Jew}}
|-
|{{UB|Atheist}}
|-
|{{UB|JesusTeachings}}
|}

User:Austenbosten

2014-02-08T14:19:46Z

Austenbosten: /* Future */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Monarchist]]

* I am [[Catholic]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Pope Benedict XVI
* St. Pope John Paul II
* Father Robert Barron
* Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
* Father Larry Roberts
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* Engelbert Dollfuss
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Roman Catholic}}
{{User Creationist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2014-02-08T14:17:19Z

Austenbosten: /* Who do I admire. */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Monarchist]]

* I am [[Catholic]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Pope Benedict XVI
* St. Pope John Paul II
* Father Robert Barron
* Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
* Father Larry Roberts
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* Engelbert Dollfuss
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2013-12-10T17:35:42Z

Austenbosten: /* Who am I? */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Monarchist]]

* I am [[Catholic]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Pope Benedict XVI
* Blessed Pope John Paul II
* Father Robert Barron
* Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
* Father Larry Roberts
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2013-08-30T02:29:29Z

Austenbosten: /* Who am I? */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am [[Catholic]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* I am saddened by the 2012 Election (aka Death of America)

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Pope Benedict XVI
* Blessed Pope John Paul II
* Father Robert Barron
* Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
* Father Larry Roberts
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2012-11-09T00:27:47Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I am becoming [[Catholic]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* I am saddened by the 2012 Election (aka Death of America)

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Pope Benedict XVI
* Blessed Pope John Paul II
* Father Robert Barron
* Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
* Father Larry Roberts
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs

2011-10-11T22:12:42Z

Austenbosten: Added ''Get Over It'' since this is directed at most liberals

There are many brilliant—and popular—conservative songs.

Here is our growing list:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!Song
!Artist
!Comments
!Billboard Rank
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDK9QqIzhwk ''Livin' on a Prayer'']
|Bon Jovi
|Organized labor is harmful to the welfare of workers; instead one must rely on a love for Christ and prayer.
|1
|-
|[http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Crying-in-the-Chapel-lyrics-Elvis-Presley/E547D833F0BBFADF48256874002B3358 ''Crying In The Chapel'']
|[[Elvis Presley]]
|Pro-marriage
|1
|-
|[http://www.ixlyrics.com/CLIVE-DUNN/GRANDAD.html ''Grandad'']
|Clive Dunn
|UK Number 1 hit, in praise of senior citizens and their values
|
|-
|[http://youtu.be/EgkBx8csEws ''Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road'']
|[[Elton John]]
|The same message as the [[Prodigal Son]]: look objectively at our own lives, and realize that "I should have listened to my old man."
|2
|-
|[http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/jones-george/gods-gonna-get-cha-for-that-6638.html ''God's Gonna Get 'Cha For That'']
|Tammy Wynette & George Jones
|You cannot escape God's gaze, no matter who you are
|25
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iYY2FQHFwE ''Okie From Muskogee'']
|[[Merle Haggard]]
|Anti-drug and anti-hippie; a song about praising the traditional American values in Mid-America. Was written in response to the Vietnam War protests and counter-culture movement.
|1 (Billboard Hot Country)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6yilkU1LI ''Fast Car'']
|Tracy Chapman
|Self-help, free market, division of labor, and a criticism of alcohol. "I know things will get better/You'll find work and I'll get promoted/We'll move out of the shelter/Buy a bigger house and live in the suburbs"
|6
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5RkzbHb-w ''You Can't Hurry Love (You Just Have to Wait)'']
|The Supremes
|Abstinence for rock fans. Also performed by Phil Collins.
|1
|-
|[http://youtu.be/o-z2D9lo9-8 ''Bush Was Right'']
|The Right Brothers
|Celebrating the Bush Administration's success and policies.
|
|-
|[http://youtu.be/BvPugOWeZiA ''Let It Be'']
|[[The Beatles]]
|Very popular in Russia under the Soviets
|1
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU ''Have You Forgotten?'']
|Darryl Worley
|Patriotic response to [[September 11, 2001 attacks]].<ref>http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=15568</ref>
|1 (US Country)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5aMMRes2u4 ''Still the One'']
|Orleans
|A tribute to fidelity in relationships.
|5
|-
|[http://youtu.be/oHg5SJYRHA0 ''Sweet Home Alabama'']
|[[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]
|A response to hippie culture. Defends Southerners from stereotyped attacks by [[liberal]], Canadian rocker Neil Young. "Well, I hope Neil Young will remember/A Southern man don't need him around anyhow."
|8
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-1_d6bbM1I ''My Love'']
|[[Petula Clark]]
|A Christian love in secular form.
|1
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4 ''I Fought the Law (and the Law Won)'']
|The Crickets
|Its title says it all. The version by ''The Clash'' has a particularly good tempo.
|9 (Bobby Fuller Four version)
|-
|[http://youtu.be/cMfrLFirGWc ''Chapel of Love'']
|Dixie Cups
|Marriage in a church
|1
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0heL2Czeraw ''I Am America'']
|Krista Branch
|American [[Tea Party Movement]] Song
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT88jBAoVIM ''Amazing Grace'']
|[[John Newton]]
|A Christian hymn published in 1779.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IStlBOX9F4o ''God's Gonna Cut You Down'']
|Traditional
|"Go tell that long tongue liar, go and tell that midnight rider, tell the rambler, the gambler, the back biter, tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down"
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/pEnLNWoln1c ''Anything Goes'']
|Guns N' Roses
|A blatant message about the dangers of premarital sex
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew ''Stand By Your Man'']
|[[Tammy Wynette]]
|Don't expect [[feminists]] to like that one! Or [[Hillary Clinton]]!
|1 (Hot Country Singles)
|-
|[http://youtu.be/r5Q8Xa0bPy8''Battle Hymn of the Republic'']
|[[Lee Greenwood]]
|"As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free."
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/lnk8SKD9zcA''You Light Up My Life'']
|Debby Boone
|One of the biggest hits ever, but [[liberals]] omit that this song is about [[Jesus]].
|1
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np0solnL1XY ''Free Bird'']
|Lynyrd Skynyrd
|Because [[Conservatives]] want a free country, and [[liberals]] are in love with [[communism]].
|19-
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wahd2piIr4Q ''Brothers In Arms'']
|[[Dire Straits]]
|We're fools to make war on our brothers in arms.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeWZhuzFMM8 ''The Ascent of Stan'']
|[[Ben Folds]]
|Tells the story of a former "textbook hippie man" who realizes that he has become everything that he was protesting against.
|NA
|-
|''Starting All Over Again''
|[[Petula Clark]]
|Keep moving onward, even in the most difficult of times.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/bCFWyLwcR6E ''Thank You My Lord'']
|[[Petula Clark]]
|The title says it all.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/7NJMTmz7pkg ''Brick'']
|Ben Folds Five
|Shows the regret involved in abortion.
|6 (Modern Rock Tracks)
|-
|[http://youtu.be/Dw6qmYX1ny4 ''Alive'']
|P.O.D.
|About being thankful for the gift of life.
|2 (US Alternative)
|-
|[http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/serve.html ''Gotta Serve Somebody'']
|[[Bob Dylan]]
|"It may be the devil or it may be the Lord."
|24
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU ''Jesus, Take The Wheel'']
|[[Carrie Underwood]]
|A gospel-themed hit from the American Idol winner.
|1 (US Country)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPBwXKgDTdE ''Mine'']
|[[Taylor Swift]]
|Talks about how her parents stooped to [[liberal values]] and divorced, and how she doesn't want that to happen with the guy she meets, dates, and marries.
|1 (US Adult Contemporary)
|-
|[http://youtu.be/FAvQSkK8Z8U ''Red Barchetta'']
|[[Rush]]
|Tells the story of a future with excessive regulation, where even driving is illegal.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/K5N2WJ1szHE ''Father of Mine'']
|Everclear
|A reminder of the importance of good parenting. Everclear singer Art Alexakis wrote much of his material from his own perspective of a troubled childhood. At the end of the song, Alexakis promises to be a better father than his own had been.
|4
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maz9ddxEQnM ''Taxman'']
|[[The Beatles]]
|George Harrison said, "Taxman was when I first realized that even though we had started earning money, we were actually giving most of it away in taxes."
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4eonyfRet8&feature=related ''Back in the U.S.A.'']
|[[Chuck Berry]]
|A patriotic song about missing life in the U.S.A.
|16
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZVPv9B-ZlM ''Government Cheese'']
|The Rainmakers
|Humorous spoof of welfare.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPywgiMb4k ''Angry Young Man'']
|[[Billy Joel]]
|The doctrinaire leftist radical with "his fist in the air and his head in the sand" comes in for biting criticism.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzU2iJ9qfXg ''Gimme Back My Bullets'']
|[[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]
|The name says it all.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPPlGFh6OpQ ''Spirit In The Sky'']
|Norman Greenbaum
|
|3
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38oeBgvbMYA ''Don't Let 'Em Take Your Gun'']
|Grand Funk Railroad
|A father gives his son some sage advice.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=096LhjGNNCk ''Something For Nothing'']
|Rush
|"You can't get something for nothing, you can't have freedom for free."
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/kD5M_i6JceU ''Neighborhood Bully'']
|[[Bob Dylan]]
|Israel's right to exist and defend itself.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2duiu0W_TSA&feature=fvst ''New Divide'']
|Linkin Park
|Depicts a typical scenario of conservatives having to defend themselves from unreasonable liberal attacks and the ever-widening divide between the two ideologies.
|1
|-
|[http://youtu.be/4ZEE8utquP8 ''Get it Right the First Time'']
|Louisiana's LeRoux
|Wealthy Georgia politician is placed in high office and turns out to be a puppet with no ideas of his own. Released in 1980 when Jimmy Carter was up for re-election.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/QCQTr8ZYdhg ''Wish You Were Here'']
|Pink Floyd
|A song about wishing that a conservative president would return back to office.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UE5g72s0o ''Yours Is No Disgrace'']
|[[Yes]]
|Written to, and about, the troops headed for Vietnam.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/zapGC2PrWiU ''Fair Exchange''] and [http://youtu.be/cnijc9wNpV4 ''Sparks of the Tempest'']
|[[Kansas (band)|Kansas]]
|Warnings about totalitarian governments who want to take away your freedom in the name of utopia. Also much of their early 80s material, which has Christian lyrics.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/OtZ5YsvREi4 ''In America'']
|The [[Charlie Daniels]] Band
|Patriotism makes a comeback in response to the Iran hostage crisis and Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
|11
|-
|''Storm the Embassy''
|The Stray Cats
|Another conservative song about the Iran hostage crisis. "Fifteen man taken captive in a hostile foreign land/Scorchin' sun beaming down onto miles and miles of sand..."
|NA
|-
|''We Must Take America Back''
|Steve Vaus
|Became an underground country music hit in 1992 after RCA dropped him and took the album out of print due to the political lyrics.
|NA
|-
|''Renegade''
|[[Steppenwolf]]
|[[John Kay]]'s childhood escape from Communist [[East Germany]].
|NA
|-

|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXAW2snGMI ''Capitalism'']
|Oingo Boingo
|There's nothing wrong with free enterprise.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/C68J1tJM6vU ''Unborn Child'']
|Seals and Crofts
|This pro-life song was a hit single in 1974, but for some reason gets left off the Seals and Crofts greatest hits albums.
|66
|-
|[http://youtu.be/bHpw6CzprNY ''Bad Rap (Who You Tryin' To Kid, Kid?)'']
|Steve Taylor
|Takes aim at LA and NY hipsters, the Village Voice, abortion, and "the left-wing band with their head in the sand".
|NA
|-
|''Last Kiss''
|Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders
|"Oh where oh where can my baby be; The Lord took her away from me; She's gone to heaven so I got to be good; So I can see my baby when."
|2 (J. Frank Wilson version)
|-
|''America USA''
|Joey Sudyka
|Not very well known, perhaps, but a good patriotic song.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6XZDb045xU ''Red White & Blue (Love It or Leave)'']
|[[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]
|
|27
|-SCHLAFLY IM HATE WHAT YOU REPRESENT, YOU NEED TO STAY MORE TRUE TO GODS BIBLE, AS A GOD FEARING MAN IM ASHAMED OF YOU!!!! BEGONE! LEAVE THIS WORLD FOUL DEMON! I BANISH YOU!!!!!! YOU ARE A SCOURGE UPON THIS EARTH AND SO IS YOUR MOTHER AND YOU"RE NOT EVEN THAT GOOD LOOKING! AND BESIDES, I READ ON ANOTHER CONSERVATIVE SITE THAT YOU'RE SECRETLY A COMMUNIST!!!!
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBohsCG8emk ''Simple Man'']
|[[Charlie Daniels]]
|A song about how drugs and poor politics are a result of people putting their bibles down. Also a strongly pro death penalty song.
|12
|-
|[http://youtu.be/p6q9nBusrq8 ''That Smell'']
|[[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]
|A very strong anti-drug use song by America's most well-known Southern rock band.
|NA
|-
|''Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)''
|[[Toby Keith]]
|A patriotic response to the Sept. 11 attacks
|1 (Hot Country Songs)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pldyz9VS2yY ''Under God'']
|[[Pat Boone]]
|
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/iq10bz3PxyY ''Christmas Shoes'']
|NewSong
|A Christmas song by a Christian band.
|1 (Adult Contemporary)
|-
|[http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/proudtobeamerican.html ''God Bless the USA'']
|Lee Greenwood
|
|7 (Hot Country)
|-
|''God Bless America''
|Irving Berlin
|
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kZ0pA9REyU ''No Opportunity Necessary, No Experience Needed'']
|Richie Havens (Covered by Yes)
|"...I know your cross is heavier With every step Every step But I know a man who'd walk miles for you..."
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCXiuqJ1E6g ''Supper's Ready'']
|[[Genesis (band)|Genesis]]
|''There's an angel standing in the sun, and he's crying with a loud voice, "This is the supper of the mighty one", Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Has returned to lead his children home, To take them to the new Jerusalem.''
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoaH0I9UwLI ''Your Love Is Extravagant'']
|Casting Crowns
|
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnhYE1DhC4 ''What If His People Prayed'']
|Casting Crowns
|
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EBiei21-C8 ''King Without a Crown'']
|Matisyahu
|A Hasidic Jew raps about God as the source of happiness and salvation from the things of this world: "If you're drowning in the waters and you can't stay afloat ask Hashem for mercy and He'll throw you a rope."
|7 (Hot Modern Rock Tracks)
|-
|''Take Me Home, Country Roads''
|John Denver
|Celebrates Southern country landscape and traditions.
|2
|-
|[http://youtu.be/RCqxq6xqoXI ''Sin City'']
|The Flying Burrito Brothers
|Attacks modern decadence and predicts divine punishment for sin.
|NA
|-
|''I Saw The Light''
|Hank Williams
|Redemption of sin through faith.
|NA
|-
|''No Son of Mine''
|Genesis
|
|12
|-
|[http://youtu.be/v9BtLRWbkmA ''Don't Stop (Thinking About Tomorrow)'']
|Fleetwood Mac
|Used by Bill Clinton as his campaign theme song in 1992, but liberals often try to appeal to conservative themes for elections.
|3
|-
|[http://youtu.be/Ke-r2K0ymWc ''Lightning Crashes'']
|Live
|The joy and significance of childbirth.
|1
|-
|''Takin' Care of Business''
|Bachman-Turner Overdrive
|The work ethic and promoting self-employment.
|12
|-
|''Cat's In The Cradle''
|Harry Chapin
|The importance of traditional families and responsible fatherhood.
|1
|-
|[http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=6547 ''The Devil Went Down To Georgia'']
|[[Charlie Daniels]]
|A deeper message here, as Daniels explains.
|3
|-
|''The Big Money''
|Rush
|Pro-[[capitalism]]
|45
|-
|''Real American''
|Rick Derringer
|Patriotic anthem, known as [[Hulk Hogan]]'s pre-match song.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5EfwBWgg0&feature=related ''Go Down Moses'']
|[[Louis Armstrong]]
|
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5zEP4kvfnc ''Walking Contradiction'']
|[[Green Day]]
|Though a vocal critic of the [[Bush Administration]], here [[Green Day]] mocks the often self-contradictory and inconsistent [[liberal]] ideologies, hence the term "walking contradiction".
|21
|-
|''God and Guns''
|[[Lynyrd Skynyrd]]
|A powerful new song that elaborates on the song title.
|NA
|-
|''Stayin' Alive''
|[[The Bee Gees]]
|Pro-people and pro-staying alive, and this: "we can try to understand/the [[New York Times]]' effect on man."
|1
|-
|''Sympathy for the Devil''
|The Rolling Stones
|Reminds humanity that evil is present in the world and needs to be fought.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVsZap7WBm8 ''All In'']
|Lifehouse
|Describes a relationship with God as being full of commitment and without reservations.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y5GDvN9_OE ''The Ballad of the Green Berets'']
|Sergeant Barry Sadler
|Pro-American and pro-military.
|1
|-
|''Iraq No Phobia''
|Pro-Pain
|It is a pro-American, pro-military heavy metal song about the first [[Gulf War]]: ''"Mohammed's no match for the great Uncle Sam."''
|NA
|-
|''Bus Stop''
|The Hollies
|Pro-[[chivalry]], pro-romance and pro-marriage: "Someday my name and hers are going to be the same."
|5
|-
|''Stranger in Blue Suede Shoes''
|Kevin Ayers
|Defends the right of businessmen to choose their customers: "we don't serve strangers in blue suede shoes".
|NA
|-
|''Union Sundown''
|Bob Dylan
|The title says it all.
|NA
|-
|''People Get Ready''
|Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions
|An all-time classic song about the glory of the [[Lord]].
|3
|-
|''Get a Job''
|The Silhouettes
|Self-explanatory; a rebuke to lazy [[liberals]] who want to sit around and wait for government handouts.
|1
|-
|''Pray''
|[[Justin Bieber]]
|A song about supporting your country.
|61
|-
|''Hypnotize''
|System of a Down
|SOAD is a rather left-ish band although this song is about liberals believing anything they see or hear in the media.
|1
|-
|''Gematria (The Killing Name)''
|Slipknot
|This song is about what the liberals of America, who can get ''very'' annoying sometimes.
|NA
|-
|''Don't Tread On Me''
|Metallica
|Name says it all!
|21
|-
|''Welcome to the Family''
|Avenged Sevenfold
|A song about death row, although not anti-death penalty.
|8
|-
|[http://youtu.be/fHvf20Y6eoM ''Turn, Turn, Turn'']
|The Byrds
|An almost word-for-word direct quotation from the [[Bible]], specifically [[Ecclesiastes]], with the addition of the refrain "Turn, Turn, Turn".
|1
|-
|''Critical Acclaim''
|Avenged Sevenfold
|Pro-America and pro-Military.
|NA
|-
|''The Star Spangled Banner''
|Francis Scott Key
|The American national anthem.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pearl+jam/dissident_20106414.html ''Dissident'']
|Pearl Jam
|About a woman who engages in [[liberal values]] by being impregnated out of wedlock and having an abortion, but immediately regrets doing so.
|3
|-
|[http://www.justsomelyrics.com/767663/McCarthy-Keep-an-Open-Mind-or-Else-Lyrics ''Keep an Open Mind or Else'']
|McCarthy
|About the conservative value of keeping an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]].
|NA
|-
|''Way Out Here''
|Josh Thompson
|"Our house is all protected by the good Lord and a Gun", and "We wont take a dime if we aint earned it, when it comes to weight, brother we pull our own". It is pro gun ownership, the Lord, and hard work. Also preaches the morals and ethics that are known from small towns.
|15 (US Country)
|-
|''D-I-V-O-R-C-E''
|[[Tammy Wynette]]
|This sad song was a huge hit in 1968.
|1
|-
|''Respect''
|Aretha Franklin
|This song is about respecting woman and their choices to be equal members in society.
|1
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cxwIWPJV0I ''A Better Tomorrow'']
|Wu-Tang Clan
|A rap song about staying away from liberal excess and illegal acts in order to be a positive influence for the next generation.
|NA
|-
|[http://youtu.be/5Jxnt-QY-j4 ''Game of Love'']
|Wayne Fontana and the Mindbenders
|"The purpose of a man is to love a woman, and the purpose of a woman is to love a man... It started long ago in the Garden of Eden when Adam said to Eve 'Baby, you're for me.'"
|1
|-
|''It's America''
|Rodney Atkins
|Celebrates the American spirit and all the good things about the United States.
|1 (US Country)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eebfMFzJHNs&ob=av2e ''Warning'']
|[[Green Day]]
|Though a vocal critic of the [[Bush Administration]] and clearly supportive of [[liberal values]], here they once again challenge liberal values with this song that mocks the liberal Nanny-state.
|3 (US Alternative)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHAFmFsb9XM&feature=related ''The Fightin' Side of Me'']
|Merle Haggard
|A song about patriotism and standing up for [[America]].
|1 (Hot Country Singles)
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA_H6C8iLPA ''Liberalism is a Mental Disorder'']
|The Infidel (Gregory Van Leer Jr.) with an opening from [[Michael Savage]]
|Clearly attacks [[liberal values]].
|NA
|-
|''The River''
|[[Bruce Springsteen]]
|Pre-marital sex and trade unionism punished by depression and redundancy.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=sex+pistols''Bodies'']
|The Sex Pistols
|Profane but graphically anti-abortion.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h1oRP7FfBw ''Sunny Afternoon'']
|The Kinks
|About a rich man trying to enjoy the simple things in life because the Nanny-state has nearly bankrupted him.
|14
|-
|''2+2=5 (The Lukewarm)''
|Radiohead
|A song chastising people for accepting the mainstream medias version of events and not paying attention.
|NA
|-
|''No Children''
|The Mountain Goats
|A song about a marriage falling apart because the couple has no children to hold the family together.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuUmLIPSasI ''God Loves My Country'']
|Balthrop, Alabama
|A song that declares that God loves America most of all.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOEoo1oXBs ''Declaration Day'']
|Iced Earth
|A song about the Revolutionary War.
|NA
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1IpcvdF6jc ''Boulevard of Broken Dreams'']
|Green Day
|Though critical of the Bush Administration, they clearly depict what a liberal life is like.
|2
|-
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zZE0SrkyNE&ob=av2n ''Where'd You Go'']
|Fort Minor
|Shows the hardship of divorce, liberal values, and the possible future of the families of our service men who could be forced to serve in Libya.
|2
|-
|''Patriotism''
|Company Flow
|While containing bad language it endorses the US as a super-power
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypkv0HeUvTc ''The Beautiful People'']
|Marilyn Manson
|Despite foul language, it endorses free thought and individuality while criticizing liberal hypocrisy and fascism.
|29
|-
|''Tribute''
|Tenacious D
|Comedy single, but it's also a very popular song about overcoming Satan and alludes to many other Christian themes such as heaven and hell.
|4
|-
|-
|''Country Trash''
|Johnny Cash
|In a comedic way, the song praises the small town conservative virtues of the people looked down upon by big city liberals as "Country trash"
|
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-pQBDE5Gbg ''Me Against The World'']
|Simple Plan
|As conservatives and Christians, [[liberal bias]] is all around us, in the media for example, trying to pressure us on a bandwagon to be like them and worship at the altar of liberalism and godlessness. It is up to us to stand up for what is right, even if we have to go up against the world.
|
|-
|''For Martha''
|The Smashing Pumpkins
|Being torn between the anguish of losing a lost one and the joy of knowing you will one day reunite them with in heaven
|
|-
|''Do You Hear the People Sing''
|Claude-Michel Schönberg
|Standing up to government in the name of freedom, from the musical ''Les Miserables''
|
|-
|[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDIGzzeQjaE ''Dethharmonic'']
|Dethklok
|Anti-tax
|
|-
|''Get Over It''
|The Eagles
|Written by Don Henley (who is a liberal) about his frustration of people blaming others for their own problems and believing the world owes them a favor ''"the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing,"''
|
|-
|}

Please add your best conservative picks.

== Debatable Whether Conservative ==

The top five in a poll of the greatest songs in the 20th century, according to the Recording Industry Association of America and the [[NEA]]:

*''Over the Rainbow'' (Judy Garland)
*''White Christmas'' (Bing Crosby)
*''Respect'' (Aretha Franklin)
*''American Pie'' (Don McLean)

== References ==

<references/>
[[Category:Essays]]
[[category:Music]]

Talk:Essay:Politicians Who Had a Real Career

2011-08-25T03:43:00Z

Austenbosten: /* Why is Michelle Bachmann the only one who has her jobs listed in a footnote as opposed to in the body of the article? */

==This is interesting==
Just to clarify do you mean people who are not "career politicians"? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:06, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:Oh yeah, I added Herman Cain. Would he qualify (don't know much about US politics). [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:09, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Significance, and alphabetization ==

The list is for ''significant'' politicians who have had some influence. Many who have been added do not qualify. They need to be moved to the lower category.

Also, why alphabetize rather than rank by influence?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:33, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:What would qualify as significance? I moved Franken because, though his career was perhaps less-than-serious, as a senator, he makes law. Perhaps that could be the judge of influence? And I thought alphabetization would be effective for the purposes of locating a certain name following the explansion of the article. --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:03, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::Good point about the value of alphabetization ... if there are enough names whereby it becomes an issue. Many of the names need to be moved to the "not significant" category. For example, unless you can identify a real influence that Al Franken has had, then he does not belong on the real list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:08, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::I moved Franken.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 21:12, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::(edit conflict) Until such a time, I think alphabetization is still desirable, to avoid getting into arguments over who is more influential than whom. Regarding Franken, he has presided over two Supreme Court Justice confirmations, intoduced [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:S1495: a bill] to provide service dogs to disabled veterans as well as an amendment to the appropriations bill regarding contract disputes, and was in the national news a good deal due to his election controversies. (This is assuming that the positivity or negativity of influence is moot). --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:17, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Land surveying ==

I see Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were moved out of the list. Both were land surveyors for several years, which ''is'' a "real" job. They might not have been hugely successful at the position, but it is a job that has real responsibility and there are legal consequences if done incorrectly. Mount Rushmore have 3 surveyors on it - only Theodore Roosevelt had the poor judgement of not attempting the profession. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:21, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Eisenhower ==

He was a five-star general in the Army and was very influential in WWII. He helped with the Invasion of Normandy.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 21:22, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obama ==

Whether you like him or hate him, he ''is'' the president of the United States. How can it be said he isn't "significant" in politics? What has all the fighting been about the past three years then? --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:24, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:Edited to add - if he's insignificant, why does CP have so many articles about him and his administration's policies? --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:30, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::Because he's a black atheist Muslim foreign liberal. [[User:TerryB|TerryB]] 14:44, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I am sure this was not the authors intent, but the above statement could come of as racist. I think he meant to say "a Black Muslim" - which is a political group. But by inserting atheist in between, it looks like "black" is being used in a perjorative way. The author might want to rephrase it.--[[User:PeterNant|PeterNant]] 17:08, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obama ??? ==

[http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Politicians_Who_Had_a_Real_Career&curid=114700&diff=898411&oldid=898410 I am curious about edit.] Obama had a very wealthy career as a attorney and author before stepping into the political fray. Why does it not count? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:49, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
: (Edit conflict) Also, why would there be question marks by Obama's name, but attorney by Santorum's, despite Santorum only having 4 years under his law belt and Obama having 9+? --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:51, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::And what does "no clear influence in politics mean"? He's the president!!! Can't get much more influential than that! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:08, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

:::Surely influence means more than someone's title or position. Otherwise, the 44 most influential people in American history would be the 44 presidents, which is obviously not the case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:06, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::But he has quite a clear influence. He is the President. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:17, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::So Barack Obama is no longer destroying the country? What a glorious day for America. --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 23:19, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::Folks, position does not equal influence. Jesus had no position at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:39, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::But Obama has huge influence. He can sign things into law that cause massive changes. How do you classify influence? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:41, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::::[[Thomas Edison]] was named by Life magazine as the most influential person in the entire world in the second millennium. Yet he did not sign anything into law.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yes, but the section is titled "No clear influence ''in politics''." Obama clearly has enormous influence in politics. Particularly in that he controls the military, has a presidential veto and can pardon criminals. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 00:53, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

Position does not necessarily equate to influence - but it makes it more likely that they had influence, but not certain. Ie. Michele Bachmann has spent most of her time in Congress when Republicans were in the minority. This is one of the reasons why most of the bills she has submitted have not been passed into law: her party lacked the political numbers to be able to do so. Compare this to a Democratic Congressman elected at the same time, whose party did have control in Congress, who would most likely have had a larger impact because the bills introduced would have been more likely to get further. And although the 43 most influential people in American politics would not consist of the 43 American Presidents (not 44, Grover Cleveland is counted twice), but if you tried to list the top 250 influential people in American politics, you would get nearly all of them in that list (not William Henry Harrison, serving for 1 month, and like). And with regards to Jesus being influential without a position, his main influence was not political, in fact his political influence could be considered minimal (ignoring the effect centuries later, which surely would not be relevant). Therefore Jesus would not be on this list, as this is about political influence in the US. - JamesCA, August 8 2011
:The trouble with this list is that it's often hard to evaluate a person's true influence until some years after the peak of their career - it's one thing to make policies or speeches while in office, and another to influence the actions of those who follow you. I don't think the list should include anyone who entered politics less than 25 years ago, since such inclusions cannot take a fully informed perspective.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:03, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Definition of influence ==

Andy, please give a definition of "influence" for us to work with. Thanks. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 00:15, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I am curious as well. I am reluctant to add any more names until a clearer pattern emerges. --[[User:SteveK|SteveK]] 00:22, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::It's obvious what "influence" is, isn't it? It means changing the way people view or conduct their lives. Rubber-stamping laws passed by Congress doesn't rank high on the list, but the media of course make money by pretending otherwise.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:05, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Then Obama qualifies, but for the wrong reasons. forcing people into health care, downgrading the credit rating etc etc are all due to his political influence. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 01:10, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::I assume it isn't ''President Obama's war in Libya'' any longer? [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 02:01, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::If you're going to consider Obama not influential, then you can't complain about his policies, only complain about incomptetence. Because if he is not influential, then his policies don't matter, and aren't worth complaining about. Complain about the policies of the Democratic Party, instead of the man who is supposedly their puppet (which I think deserves enough evidence that maybe a page on the Debate Topics should be started?) - JamesCA, August 8 2011

::::That's like say no one should complain about a lack of leadership, which is similar to a leader who lacks influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:39, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::It's not like that. I said complain about incompetence, which is a lack of leadership/a leader who lacks influence. But if he isn't influential, then his policies don't matter, because he has no effect on them. Once he is influential, then his policies matter because then he can do something about them. - JamesCA, August 8 2011

== LBJ??? ==

LBJ taught at a school near the Mexico border in a town called Cotulla for 1 year. He then returned to teachers college, finished his diploma and taught at a High School in Houston for 1 semester, before taking a job as a congressman's assistant in Washington. He was then appointed head of the Texas NYA (a new deal program) before geing elected congressman a couple of years later. In other words LBJ had no significant career prior to getting into politics. For this reason I will remove his name. Whatever you can say about LBJ (and there is a lot to say) you cannot say he wasn't a career politician. --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 02:40, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Problem with organization ==

I don't really understand the logic of this page. The first part is clear enough, a list of politicians who had success in other careers before entering politics, but the second section seems to be talking about something different entirely. Do you mean for "No real influence in politics" to be the opposite category of "significant politicians who had a real career (outside of politics)"? Wouldn't a more logical second category be "Career Politicians," or "Politicians with no real career outside of politics"?

I only ask because I can think of several cases where a politician both had a real career outside politics and were not extremely influential in politics. Sunny Bono comes to mind, an extraordinarily successful musician who did relatively little as a congressman. Ross Perot and Steve Forbes are both successful businessmen who have never managed to break through to meaningful political careers. As others have argued above, Obama can't be considered to have little influence in politics, since the president is by definition the most important politician in the system. However, there is a case to be made that he never had much of a career before entering politics. At least not one befitting a well-connected double Ivy League graduate who has a J.D. from Harvard and worked on the Law Review. [[User:JDWpianist|JDWpianist]] 08:28, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
::You're right JDW. You'd think that a guy with that kind of pedigree would be doing some really interesting/earth-shattering/high-stakes and high-paying work, maybe in the private sector or in academia, before moving on to politics. Otherwise, what a waste of time and potential. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:02, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::That's a strange remark, John (or are you being ironic?) Whether you like his brand of politics or not, he's decided to devote his undoubted potential to national-level politics. Seeking elected office in a democracy is a worthy ambition. Why do you regard it as a waste? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:30, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Duke of Wellington ==

Confused newcomer here. Why is the 1st Duke of Wellington in the list headed "No clear inluence in politics"? He was the dominant figure on the right of British politics from 1829 to 1848. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:27, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:If explained in the entry, that's a good reason to promote him to the top list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: OK, so I've done this for Wellington and also for MacMillan and Chamberlain. I've left Heseltine, Major and Baldwin in the bottom list - perhaps they're examples of how a significant career before/outside politics doesn't prepare you for high office. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:05, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::Chamberlain was a typical liberal appeaser. He had no clear influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:08, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: I think you need to bring yourself up-to-date on British history. Chamberlain was libelled as an appeaser by the authors of a leftist pamphlet called ''The Guilty Men'', published in 1940. Many of the leftists who wrote the pamphlet were much more strongly in favour of appeasement than Chamberlain was. Churchill admired and trusted him and placed him in charge of domestic policy. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:16, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: (edit conflict) Sorry... what? Chamberlain was a typical inter-war Tory. He hated war and was prepared to do anything to stop it! His only major opponent was the ex-Liberal Winston Churchill! Without Chamberlain, the Czech appeasement deal would never have happened and the war would have been different because Czechoslovakia would have had a chance to defend itself. I really don't see how you can write him off so easily. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:18, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::The alternative to Chamberlain as PM in 1937 was Halifax, in which case there would have been more enthusiastic appeasement and no military build-up, and Britain would have become the western outpost of the Reich. No, Chamberlain's judgement in foreign policy wasn't immaculate but considering that his Foreign Secretary was Halifax and that Parliament, ''especially Labour'', was very strongly pro-appeasement, it wasn't as bad as ''The Guilty Men'' made out. Your line about "typical inter-war Tory" is incorrect; his achievements in improving working conditions and in economics were genuine. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:27, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::: Sorry, but there wasn't really a choice in '37. Baldwin advised the King to send for Chamberlain, and he did. The choice was Halifax vs Churchill a few years later. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:32, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::: The debate took place within the Tory party. They chose the outstanding domestic politician of the first half of the 20th century although it would shortly become apparent that the expertise the PM would need was in foreign affairs. (But had they chosen the leading foreign affairs expert, history would have been disastrously different...) Modern historians are much less harsh on Chamberlain than their predecessors. If he had stood up to Germany in 1938, he would have given Hitler the opportunity to drag Britain into a war which she could not have won, under-equipped and without the support of France. The Czechoslovak economy and military was relatively strong but too small to resist the Wehrmacht. The real damage was done about 5 years earlier, when Baldwin refused to re-arm. Chamberlain's own policy as PM was the classic, "if you hope for peace, prepare for war" but that doesn't work against a madman. It's now generally understood that Chamberlain did ''not'' trust Hitler but felt he had no alternative in the Munich Conference; he certainly had no sympathy with the Nazis, unlike some more aristocratic Tories. It's also widely recognised that his very real achievements as Chancellor put Britain into a position in which rearmament from 1937 onwards was economically possible. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:53, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Ron Paul ==

For the benefit of non-US editors, please could someone explain who Ron Paul is. The page describes him as "the single most influential presidential candidate in the past decade". I must say that he's completely unknown in the UK and I don't see that he won many votes in Presidential elections.

The point is to have a benchmark so we know where to add names of the many politicians who've had significant outside careers: why is Ron Paul in the "influential" list and the Duke of Wellington in the "not influential" list? Or for that matter, Neville Chamberlain: he had one of the most influential ''peace-time'' careers of any politician in the UK in the 20th century. As Health Minister, he got the first Factory Act passed, a keystone of legislation on safety at work, and as Chancellor, he ensured that Britain had the economic strength and military spending it needed to fight Hitler. Churchill inspired the Spitfire pilots but Chamberlain got the Spitfires built. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:49, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Significant isn't the same thing as good ==

Mr Schlafly, as you give history lessons (are you a professional history teacher?) you surely understand that many significant politicians weren't good people. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:12, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:Regarding Heydrich and Lenin: you've now placed them in the category of people whose career outside politics needs discussion. They were both thoroughly evil people but they both had significant careers before going into politics and were both extremely significant (negatively) as politicians. When you say, "Significant politicians", do you mean, "Significant politicians whose policies Andy Schlafly approves of"? Please let me know because if you do, perhaps it would not be a good use of my time or that of other editors to attempt to assist you. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:21, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Trudeau, Levesque, Parizeau, Mulroney as "undeserving" ==

By what definition are these four men, who together and in opposition completely changed the political landscape of a country that happens to be our largest trading partner "undeserving"? [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 19:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I would consider them morally undeserving. Levesque and Parizeau were separatists. Mulroney was corrupt and Trudeau was a socialist. In terms of influence, I might say Levesque because he was the first PQ premier. Trudeau and Mulroney were long serving but did not really do that much to change the country. Parizeau was a failure.
:This article isn't about moral purity. Read the title of the article: "Politicians who had a real career." They were politicians. They were important politicians. They had careers before embarking in politics. Therefore, they deserve to be in the article. Your assertion that Trudeau and Mulroney didn't change the country is absurd. Trudeau, if he did nothing else, repatriated the constitution and gave the country the Charter of rights and Freedoms. Mulroney, if he did nothing else, opened the door for the a complete retooling of Canada's concept of a "social safety net." Parizeau might not have succeeded in bringing about Quebec independence, but he came very close, and Quebec-Canada relations have never been the same since 1995; moreover he was the financial brains behind the creation and expansion of "Quebec. Inc in the 1970s and 1980s. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 21:38, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: Headlines are concise out of necessity. Implicit in the headline for this entry is the word "influential", as has already been explained before on this talk page. Someone who merely "opened the door" doesn't count; doormen are not counted among the most influential people, unless they do something in addition to opening doors.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:42, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Pierre Trudeau wrote a new constitution for Canada. Writing a new constitution for a country is being a doorman? Look at Canada in 1983 when he left office, and look at Canada when Mulroney left office--do those countries look at all the same to you? Look at Quebec in 1976 before Levesque. Look at Quebec when Parizeau left office -- does that look at all like the same place? [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 21:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::Honestly, Canada does look the same to me throughout that period: beautiful landscape, terrific people, but headed in the misguided [[liberal]] direction. It's a tragedy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:44, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Confusion ==

Is there some special set of criteria here? Why are people like Margaret Thatcher being deleted while others like Lech Walesa are being moved to different sections? It's pretty clear that these two had significant careers before becoming politicians (Thatcher's science background was often referenced during her term as PM). I don't see why they shouldn't make the list, while Michele Bachmann, who has had no career outside politics at all, makes the top list. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I would suggest including an introductory paragraph at the top, to help clarify what exactly this is about. Certainly, Lech Walesa had a very clear and very real career, so why does he need "further discussion?" It is, I admit, an interesting idea to analyze the pre-politics careers of those that would be our leaders. But I'm not sure of the intentions of this essay nor its contents.--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 23:24, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::Thatcher did not have a real career outside of government. Majoring in chemistry is not a real career.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::[[Homeschooling]] 5 kids and helping raise about two-dozen additional foster children, as [[Michele Bachmann]] did, is a real career.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:37, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: I don't consider homeschooling 5 kids and raising foster kids a career. Nothing against homeschooling, but anyone can do it (although its hard to do it well). Same with raising foster kids. In Canada, most of the foster parents are on welfare and take in kids because the money does not come off of their cheques. Do they have careers ? Bachmann has two law degrees and was a successful lawyer. That is not something everyone could do. That is what I would call a career--[[User:PeterNant|PeterNant]] 18:01, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::Lech Walesa may merit the top list. Good point. Perhaps a greater explanation of what his career and political influence were would help.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:40, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I really am also very confused - I added the two-term Mayor of New York and the likely GOP Presidential nominee, yet they have "no clear influence in politics"? Sorry, but I don't understand at all - they are both very significant figures? [[User:JanW|JanW]] 23:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I am confused as to how Bachmann is considered to have a real career but not Obama? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:58, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
::I'm confused too. I accept that Chamberlain's later career was controversial but why on earth have (1) Harold MacMillan and (2) Alex Salmond been removed from the top list? (1) Decolonisation of Africa was a big ahievement and (2) like him or loath him, Salmond is probably the most effective politician in the UK today. Perhaps I could politely suggest that the contributions of certain editors are not being made with the benefit of a strong sense of history...? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:06, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Insight ==

Hi folks. I believe I have just had a fascinating conservative insight, based on the current form of this list. I present it here for your perusal and hope that it will provoke discussion. Noting that there are very few influential liberals in the first list, I conclude that

'''Nearly all influential liberals are professional politicians. In contrast, many influential conservatives hold "real" jobs prior to entering politics.'''

This appears to be particularly true among conservatives whose views align with those of the Tea Party. I believe this insight is well-supported by the data presented here, as soon as one has appropriately defined "influential" and "real job". --[[User:PhilS33|PhilS33]] 09:17, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:Superb insight!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:45, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::Indeed. "As soon as one has appropriately defined 'influential' and 'real job.'" It's all about how you choose to define your terms. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:47, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Not necessarily. "Influential" and ""real job" are hardly arcane or technical terms - they are commonly understood by most people. Now of course influence is not a binary quality, but one can certainly say that the more influential, the more likely to have had a real job (or vice versa) without getting bogged down in pedantic definitions.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:04, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::It seems like this is almost a truism. Those who hold real jobs will gain an understanding of the value of money and the damage caused by over-regulation and high taxes. Thus, they will tend to become more conservative with time. Those who never hold real jobs will have little grasp of the value of a dollar or the harm of government overreach, and will thus tend towards liberalism. It's not unlike the difference between a child who is expected to attend to chores and a part-time job in order to earn spending money, as opposed to one who is spoiled and freely given money without responsibility. The first child will learn to be independent and self-sufficient, while the second will learn to run to mommy and daddy (or, in the case of liberals, the government) with outstretched hands whenever money runs short. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 11:43, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

PhilS's insight looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy as far as this site is concerned. Politicians that conservatives don't approve of aren't included in the list at the top part of the page (or get removed from it as soon as Mr Schlafly spots them). Winston Churchill and Reinhard Heydrich had careers as military officers of about the same length of time and were two of the most influential politicians of any country in the 20th century. Which implies that having a real job before entering politics won't make you the kind of politician decent people would approve of. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:35, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:The list is objective. Winston Churchill was a phenomenal writer and historian, and he had a significant political influence. That obviously warrants the top list. Reinhard Heydrich, in contrast, was an immoral underachiever outside of politics, and the horrific crimes of Nazism continued after Heydrich died at age 38.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:21, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::The list cannot be considered "objective" for a moment as you say, as long as former US Presidents, current Presidential primary candidates, sitting US Senators and Governors of States are not considered to have had "influence". It seems very strange that you would take such a view, I must say? --[[User:JanW|JanW]] 16:31, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

==Denis Healey==

Denis Healey introduced monetarism to the British economy in the late seventies. If that's not influential, what is?

As for the "obscure or otherwise inept Brits" section, A+ for childish humour, Z-- for political insight ~~Rafael
::Hey, I tried to argue that a guy who [[Pierre Trudeau|gave his country a new constitution]] was influential, and got shot down for no discernable reason. Good luck with this. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 11:45, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:::The policy of every British Chancellor since 1976, except Gordon Brown, has essentially followed Healey's policies. He's much more highly regarded - including by conservatives - and has been much more influential in the long term than either Wilson or Callahan, the PMs in whose cabinets he served. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:57, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::I've put DH back in the top list. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:02, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Mandela ==

Can Mandela be said to have had a 'real' career before politics? He was an aristocrat who ran away from an arranged marriage and worked for a few years as a solicitors clerk after being fired from manual employment. Hardly a career... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:15, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:I see your point. It's not like he played a sport or sang songs, you know, really important careers. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 12:21, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::I'd say that being a popular singer is more significant than being fired from a factory and failing the law exams, especially given Mandela's privileged background. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]]
:::I agree. So unless anyone objects, I'll remove Mandela from the list in the next few days because, although he was an extraodinarily influential politician, he had no real other career. - JamesCA, August 15 2011
:::I've removed him now. - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 02:17, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

== Putin ==

"(I don't think the KGB is a career outside of government)", but Washington's military career, which was certainly a government job, counts? I too am confused. [[User:ACork|ACork]] 17:25, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

: Washington is listed for reasons more than his brilliant military career which, by the way, was not a government job like the KGB.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:10, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::So, 'working for The Government' can mean different things when applied to different people. Sounds very like Orwell's (that good working class Conservative) Newspeak. As you are moving the goalposts depending whether the person fits your agenda or not I'll leave you to it. By the way, both Churchill and Thatcher were Atheists. Godspeed [[User:ACork|ACork]] 12:35, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

:::A mostly volunteer army is hardly "the government" in the same sense that career KGB functionaries are. And, as I said, Washington had a distinguished career in land development.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:59, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== "What is a beach-master"? ==

Surprised a history teacher doesn't know this. It's a military officer in charge of a section of beach during an amphibious invasion. He's the guy who's in charge of making sure everything/everybody that lands on his section of the beach goes where it's supposed to and is responsible for keeping things running in a smooth and unobstructed manner. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 22:26, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

: OK, that seems clear enough, thanks ... but if it isn't more what you describe, then I don't think it qualifies as a significant career for the purposes of this list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
::Well, I heard a radio interview with Healey in which he spoke extensively and movingly about Anzio. If you don't think it counts as significant work experience, I really pity you. Please have more respect for the armed forces. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:28, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

== Ike ==

What part of his career is there to discuss? He was an officer from more or less the midway point of WWI and kept getting promoted until he was made "Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces in Europe" culminating in the organisation and leading of D Day. He then became NATO supreme commander in Europe from 1951 until he ran for president in 1954. And that's just the highlights! I understand that Ike is not popular on this site, but lets not pretend that he didn't have a significant pre politics career. The very reason he won two landslide elections was because of his pre-politics career. Unless someone can give a coherent argument to the contrary, I will move him up to the top section. (And I don't think it can be argued he didn't have influence - his role in ending the Korean war, his moderating the demands of the Taft led senate all point to a significant influence, for good or bad). --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 03:03, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:Without objection; it is so moved. --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 15:07, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== RE: John Major ==

John Major was downgraded, and described as inept and obscure. I'd like to make a couple of points. John Major left school at 16, with only 3 O-levels. But he studied hard by correspondence course, and taught himself three more: 'British Constitution,' 'Economics,' 'Mathematics.' He helped with his father's small, failing business, and worked as a clerk. His father died, and that year, he joined the Young Conservatives, got a job with the London Electricity Board (and studied banking by correspondence while working a full time job). He became a banker with Standard Chartered Bank and became a senior executive who traveled across Africa for them. He famously began making speeches about economic conservative principles, standing on a box, at his local market, and became a Conservative Member of Parliament. He went on to be Chancellor of the Exchequer under Thatcher, and succeeded her as Prime Minister.

To me, somebody who didn't do very well at school, but worked very hard to better himself, and became a senior banking executive (remember that getting into such jobs without Oxford/Cambridge education or family connections is very difficult), then became the director of economic policy under THATCHER and then went onto be Prime Minister is a veritable conservative legend, who indeed had a solid career. He could, certainly, have earned more as a banking executive than as a politician.

Now, let's talk about influence. If directing economic policy under Thatcher isn't influence enough, lets talk about other things. He famously convinced George Bush Sr to support no fly zones in the Gulf War. If convincing the American President of something isn't influence, what is? In 1992, with Major as Leader, the conservative party gained more votes than any other British political party has ever gained in an election. More than Thatcher or Churchill ever gained! Major's Back to Basics campaign emphasized the family values which sadly were absent from the last few years of Thatcher's administration. John major did as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else: And lets remember, that's one of the most successful cases of defeating terrorism ever. [[User:AlycaZ|AlycaZ]] 23:32, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

: You state your arguments very well. Thanks - I learned from your comments. But what is John Major's '''''influence'''''? It seems Major didn't recognize the importance of social issues ... and perhaps his somewhat traditional career was part of the problem. Most on the list have unique careers that enable them to bring something insightful to politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Did you not read the last paragraph or something, Andy? The editor gave a nice synopsis on Major's influence, including his recognition of social issues." '''If directing economic policy under Thatcher isn't influence enough''', lets talk about other things. He famously convinced George Bush Sr to support no fly zones in the Gulf War. '''If convincing the American President of something isn't influence, what is'''? In 1992, with Major as Leader, '''the conservative party gained more votes than any other British political party has ever gained in an election.''' More than Thatcher or Churchill ever gained! Major's Back to Basics campaign '''emphasized the family values which sadly were absent from the last few years of Thatcher's administration'''. John major did '''as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else''': And lets remember, that's one of the most successful cases of defeating terrorism ever. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:19, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::'solve the Northern Ireland problems'? I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure NI's problems are far from solved. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:41, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::1.He didn't say he "solved" them, he said he ''' did as much to solve (them) as anybody else.''' There's a difference. 2. While Northern Ireland is hardly "solved," credit where credit is due: it's much more peaceful there now than it was for a long, long time. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 10:45, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Well quite. That's rather weak praise, don't you think? He contributed 'as much as anyone' - not the most, just 'as much as' others, to the improving - not the solving - of a problem. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:53, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I have no opinion on Major one way or the other. I'm just taken aback at the fundamentally poor basic reading comprehension displayed in this thread. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 11:03, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I certainly support the claim that he "did as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else". Bliar tends to get the credit for the Good Friday Agreement but much of the hard work was done by John Major and was completed by the excellent Mo Mowlam (whose success in N.Ireland made Bliar insanely jealous of her...) [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:27, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::::: I don't doubt that John Major had some influence, but nothing cited above rises to the level of political influence of the others on the top list. And, alas, his tenure in power seemed to end in failure, with very little lasting influence '''''even in Britain'''''. Unfortunately, long-term failure can happen when one ignores the social issues and instead pretends that foreign and economic policies are all that matter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:40, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

His party's collapse in the elections of 1997 was down to the "sleaze factor": too many of his party had their hand in the till. To say his achievements (the extensive - and radical even by Margaret Thatcher's standards - privatisation of nationalised businesses, taking sterling out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, the Maastricht treaty, extensive reform of the civil service, laying the groundwork for the Good Friday Agreement etc) are of very little lasting influence seems like a hurried comment and not a considered and researched one[[User:Rafael|Rafael]]
:Regarding the USA politicians in the top list, you've got one (Ron Johnson) whose major achievement so far is rejecting some judicial nominees (did he make constructive suggestions for alternatives?), one (Rick Scott) described as an innovative local government official and one (Michele Bachmann) who sounds like a wannabe President (sounds a bit like B.H.O. ...?) Set against these, you have to forgive Brits who think that John Major had some significant achievements, especially in Northern Ireland. And (thanks for reminding us, Rafael), almost the whole country with the exception of Bliar is delighted he got us out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:27, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

::I think a lot of good points have been made, but I'd like to present a new argument: John Major cemented conservatism in Britain. Thatcher's administration was a whirlwind of reform and change with many privatisations. While Thatcher was indeed brilliant, she became an incredibly divisive figure and, had things continued (remember the poll tax riots), Thatcher as leader in 1992 may well have seriously lost the election: and an incoming Labour government could well have renationalised (at least some) industries - either way, it would be a point for debate. John Major was a much less divisive figure. By taking over as Prime Minister, a line was drawn under the Thatcher era, and it was his role to cement it. Thatcher continuing as Prime Minister could certainly have led to a Labour majority reversing some or all of her work. Major's 5 years as a 'steady' Prime Minister, without the huge upheaval and reform cemented the idea that no government would nationalise industries. In fact, Labour could only win the 1997 election by promising that. This was something of a rebirth for the Conservative Party, and let's not forget that William Hague was first a minister under him, and David Cameron personally worked with him. He also promoted Iain Duncan Smith and Ken Clarke - he was certainly influential in shaping the influential British conservatives of today. So I think his influence can be summed up as follows:

# Significant and successful work towards peace in Northern Ireland.
# Fighting tooth-and-nail for Britain's right to remain a member of the European Union, but not join the Euro. Joining the Euro, as Blair later wanted, would have ruined the country.
# Played a very important role in the fact that Britain's industries are now privately owned, not nationally owned. If Thatcher had continued until she lost, we may have seen a reversal of this.
# Played a very important part in shaping the Conservative 'line up' today.
# Directed Thatcher's economic policy for over a year.

In the late 80s, the Conservative party was considered the 'nasty party' and a swing of a few percent in an election would've seen Labour get back in. It was only by having a mild-mannered, less divisive figure that Thatcherism became cemented. "We're all Thatcherites now," as Peter Mandelson said. From a conservative point of view, having influenced Thatcher's policies AND influenced the line up of modern conservative figures, he is a big hitter. I think that if the UK was in the Euro, everybody would be blaming John Major right now. But he made the right decision, and fought for it, and that is affecting the UK's GDP recovery to this day. [[User:AlycaZ|AlycaZ]] 21:34, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

: Thanks for the interesting analysis. John Major apparently had some significance, but part of this is speculative ("If Thatcher had continued until she lost ...") and several of the policies probably would have continued with or without Major (e.g., keeping the pound out of the Euro). So I doubt that Major's marginal significance rises to the level of the other listed politicians.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:40, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:: Andy, please read and pay attention to what other British editors have written. Thatcher would undoubtedly have lost an election in 1992, giving us Neil Kinnock for Prime Minister (aargh!!), John Smith as Chancellor who would have increased taxes and no-one with the guts to take Britain out of the ERM. (Remember that even now, Bliar, who was ''the'' rising star in 1992, is even now saying that Britain should have joined and should now join the Euro - what an idiot.) [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 10:43, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

::: I appreciate your insights and have learned from them. That said, John Major was a "status quo" type of politician who quickly departed from political discourse as soon as he was voted out of office. There is not much lasting influence there.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:22, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Mustafa Kemal ==

I regards to Mustafa Kemal I personally think that his longstanding service record in the Turkish forces and his driving force in the Young Turks movement makes him a certain candidate for a politician who had a real career. No peanut farming or so-called organizing for him. A proud member of his country's armed forces.
--[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 23:47, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

: You may be right. Honestly, I don't know enough about Kemal's career to say. Was his military career distinguished?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:57, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

I am aware that he won twenty four medals throughout his career. Primarily awarded for distinguished service during the First World War. As well as one awarded during the war of independence. His military command record is a mixed bag i believe. Though by all accounts he seems to have been a good commander and a dutiful soldier. --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:03, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

: : Also I for his significance in history it should be his role in creating modern Turkey and making ties with the West. Its a nation that until recently had resisted the allure of Islamic extremism. --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:06, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

::: Thanks for the history - please add him to the top list with your explanations. Please note, however, that I'm reluctant to open the door to every politician who served in the military. That would be a very long list indeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:20, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: I have added him to the top list with explanation and note that he created a ''democratic'' Turkish state. Would abolishing the monarchy also qualify? --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:27, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::Kemalist Turkey wasn't a democratic nation. Kemalist Turkey was a single-party state that didn't tolerate anyone a embracing non-Turkish identity (Armenians, Greeks, and Kurds) or wishing to practice their religion and traditions without government interference. Thousands of Armenians and Greeks were killed or deported. Kemalist Turkey also embraced a sort of nationalistic socialism and statism. Kemalist Turkey also had close ties with the Soviets prior to WW2. I'm a fan of the Turkish people and their rich culture, but I'm not a fan of their government's history. --[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] 17:14, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Revision ==

I've done some revision of the essay in line with discussion on this Talk Page. My changes aren't very dramatic. E.g. I've left Jim Bunning in the top list even though he's practically unknown outside the USA, I've reluctantly left Chamberlain in the second list because I accept that his major achievements in domestic policy are eclipsed by his ambiguous and often misunderstood record in foreign policy, and I've left Heydrich in the third list because even though he fits the criteria of a significant career before politics and major "achievements" (of a kind) in politics, he was utterly awful and revolting. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:58, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

== Michele Bachmann ==

For the benefit of non-Americans to whom she's totally unknown, please could someone (Andy Schlafly?) explain what Michele Bachmann has achieved in politics that places her on a par with Churchill, Reagan or Ataturk? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:05, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

: This is a list of "Politicians Who Had a Real Career." [[Michele Bachmann]] certainly had a real career, and she's influential in the current presidential election cycle as well as Congress. It's interesting that news outside the U.S. seem to be ignoring her. Typically the [[lamestream media]] will either ignore a real [[conservative]] or try to demonize that person. In the U.S., the media are doing the latter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:37, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:: You've put her in the list of "significant politicians". Please tell us what's so significant about her. (Obama was influential in the previous presidential election cycle!) I don't think media outside the USA are ignoring her; in the UK, they tend not to pay much attention to inexperienced politicians who are wannabe Presidents. Obama didn't get much attention here until around February 2008. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:54, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

:::This list is not about titles, or who won or lost a particular election. It's about '''''influence'''''. Obama is simply trying to be reelected. That's not influence. Bachmann, in contrast, is framing the debate and moving the entire process to the more [[conservative]] side, as illustrated as recently as Thursday night when she essentially eliminated media-favorite [[Tim Pawlenty]] from contention with her response to his criticism.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:00, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Also, Michelle Bachmann is one of the leading figures of the [[Tea Party]]. You wouldn't argue that the tea party isn't influential, would you? Well Bachmann has been one of the main reasons why it has stayed at the front of the political scene.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 19:28, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::OK, understood. If influence in shaping the debate is the main factor in determining influence, I would move at least the following from List 2 to List 1:
Bush (shaped debate on how to deal with international terrorism)
Chamberlain (how can economic growth contribute to achieving peace or preparing for war)
Eisenhower (how to deal with communist expansionism)
Healey (how to achieve long-term economic stability by control of the money supply)
Kemp (how to drive prosperity by cutting taxes)
Lévesque (how far should distinct language groups have autonomy)
Major (how to achieve peace in a situation of civil strife by consensus)
Macmillan (how to decolonise empire)
Rice (as Bush Jr)
Salmond (how far should small, economically successful nations have independence)
Trudeau (how far should independent constitutions be seen as a sign of national maturity).
All these names were people of considerable experience of life and work outside politics and brought fresh ideas to framing debates of the highest importance (which is your criterion for putting Bachmann in List 1). I'll leave this posting here for a couple of hours before moving them all to List 1 in case of any reasoned objections. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 10:37, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

: I do object to equating the minor influence of the persons you list with the major influence of those in the first category. Virtually none of the people you list is cited today by many speakers or writers for having any political influence. Contrast that with Reagan, who is still frequently mentioned for his influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:42, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::Andy, Reagan isn't the issue. The issue is why the likes of Michele Bachmann, Jim Bunning, Jimmie Davis, Rand Paul and Ron Paul are in the top list. They simply don't stand comparison with Reagan, Walesa, Ataturk, Wellington or many of the names I mentioned above. Or is your list of 'Significant '''conservative''' [i.e. conservative in the sense used in the USA] politicians'? Rather than politicians in general. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 14:44, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::You still seem to be missing the point. All of the people you are labeling as insignificant (with the exception of maybe Jim Bunning and Jimmie Davis) are currently shaping the face of politics today. Ron Paul has made the idea of small government conservativism, which was considered out of the question a few years ago, one of the most popular causes today. Bachmann and Rand Paul are leading the tea party movement, which is arguably the most powerful shaping force in American politics today. I notice you didn't answer my question above; you wouldn't call the tea party non influential, would you?--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 16:25, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::I have no idea if the Tea Party is or will be influential. Better to wait until after the next General Election before you decide, perhaps? And in the long term, better to wait 10 years? John Major's standing has been steading revised upwards in the 14 years since he left office. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:37, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::I really hope you're joking. Did you pay attention to the 2010 midterm elections? The debt ceiling debate? The tea party has already profoundly shaped American politics, and this is incredibly likely to continue as American's grow more and more frustrated with Obama's policies.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 16:58, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::So shall we wait and see whether the Tea Party (and Michele Bachmann) is a long-term influence or a short-term blip? I'm really amazed by how much Americans want their senior national politicians to have no significant experience of learning how to negotiate in Washington in order to get their policies accepted, and by how quickly momentum builds up behind such complete unknowns - like Obama and now Bachmann. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:12, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Alright, clearly we're not getting anywhere here. I personally believe the Tea Party has already proven itself to be incredibly influential, and the quickness of that is probably largely due to its grassroots nature. But I think we need some input from other editors here clearly.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 17:23, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Politics is about the future, not the past, and Bachmann is hardly a "complete unknown[]." Bachmann's views and voting record have been well-known for years.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:22, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Four of them. [[User:MrMorganH|MrMorganH]] 20:46, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'll buy you a pint of the Schlafly family's finest if President Bachmann doesn't find it as difficult to negotiate with stroppy Democrats as Obama does with stroppy Republicans. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:08, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::::I appreciate your wit! But the reality is that a principled conservative can get good laws passed by Democratic Congresses better than [[RINO]]s can, as Reagan illustrated. Moreover, Bachmann's coattails could bring in a conservative Congress. We'll see. But regardless, Bachmann's influence is substantial already.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:45, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obamacare? ==

Given the radicalism of [[Obamacare]], surely someone must have exerted considerable political influence to get it passed. If not Obama, then who? --[[User:MarioD|MarioD]] 19:52, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:The liberal media. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 19:56, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

:"Obamacare" -- a named that some liberals complain about -- was surely not Obama's idea, and he certainly did not draft it. There are other liberals in government and the media.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:23, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Michelle Bachmann the only one who has her jobs listed in a footnote as opposed to in the body of the article? ==

Is there something special about Bachmann's legal career that warrants it being relegated to a footnote? She WAS a practicing lawyer, right? [[User:MrMorganH|MrMorganH]] 15:49, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

: I'm sure, like most people, Bachmann has worked in several various jobs over a period of several decades. Those other jobs are not the "career" that earns her the top category.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:45, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:: She was a tax attorney for the IRS for 5 years. I think that is considered a career and not some "various job". Also Michele Bachmann prides herself as being a former tax attorney when she's interviewed. So it needs to be stated and not footnoted (ie shuffled to the backbench), I don't think it will delineate from her years of being a mother to many foster children. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 00:04, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

:::No, a mere 5-year job is not a "real career." [[Homeschooling]] 5 kids and helping raise 23 foster children is far more substantial.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:10, 24 August 2011 (EDT)
:::: On the 5-year note, Bachmann has only been a Congresswoman for 4 1/2 years. President Bush (Snr.) was President for 4 years. Sarah Palin was Governor for 2 1/2 years. So length of time isn't the only thing that indicates whether something is a real career. Also, how is raising foster children classed as a career? Of course it is impactful, and substantial. However, I can't think of a case where doing something that doesn't earn money would be classed as a career. (I am NOT saying what she has done is worthless, just questioning whether it falls within the definition of career, because to have a career, you firstly have to be employed.) - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 07:50, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::Could her being a business owner of Bachmann & Associates be classified as a career, since well she and her husband own it. I'm not trying to spark any heated argument, but I feel that putting her professional accomplishments as a footnote delineates her from the other entries, also if 5 years does not constitute as a "real career" then Ronald Reagan's one-year Presidency of the SAG, should be deleted. Also if someone could post a guideline for what constitutes as a "real career" that would be very helpful. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 23:40, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

== Suggestion for no-consensus category ==

Perhaps it would be a good idea to add a list which includes those who we have not reached a consensus about? With a note as to whether the disagreement is with regards to influence, or whether they had a real career, (or both). Suggestions for the list that I've noticed so far: Barack Obama (influence), Michele Bachmann (influence and career). And then remove these from the other lists until/if a consensus is reached. I have noticed the 'needs more discussion' section, but the no-consensus section would be only for those where a (lengthy) discussion is ongoing, and it seems unlikely that a consensus will be reached in the near future. (In contrast to Nelson Mandela, which there appears to be a consensus that he had no real other career, and only after a short discussion.) - JamesCA, August 15 2011

:Thanks for the suggestion, but objective truth is not defined by consensus. Bachmann's influence and career can hardly be doubted, and just because some may not like giving her full credit that would not justify demoting her.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:42, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Jimmie Davis ==

...appears in two lists. Someone who has heard of him should decide whether or not he was (is?) significant. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:31, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

: Great point. He should be removed from the top list. I'll do so now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:31, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

== Thatcher ==

Andy, Maggie Thatcher's career before politics was more substantial than you suggest. She worked for 6 years as an industrial chemist in the food industry, developing emulsifiers for ice cream (think of that each time you dip into the freezer section of the supermarket - she had a pretty big influence in the food industry, let alone politics!) She then worked for 6 years as a barrister before becoming an MP in the 1959 general election. I'm going to restore her to the top list. If you don't agree, please give a reasoned argument. You can hardly suggest she wasn't significant! [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:23, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

:More is required than that; others on the list had far more significant careers.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

:: You'd better delete Churchill from the top list then. He was a cavalry officer for only 6 years before retiring from the army and entering politics. His career as an writer only began properly long after he began his career in politics; by the time he wrote his first well-known books, ''My Early Life'' and ''Marlborough'', he had already been Home Secretary, First Lord of the Admiralty, Minister of War and Chancellor of the Exchequer (note to yankees: that's like being in charge of homeland security, the navy, the army and the treasury). [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:57, 16 August 2011 (EDT)

== M.A. Jinnah ==

"Jinnah's influence needs more explanation"???!!! Please read what I wrote: "Successful lawyer; later one of the three main leaders of the Indian independence movement, with Gandhi and Nehru, and founder of Pakistan." What can I say? Regarding his career, he was a successful lawyer for 31 years before becoming a member of the legislature. He has been universally recognised in his lifetime and ever since as the leading muslim in the movement for Indian independence (something that affects a fifth of the world's population!) The founding of Pakistan, in which he was the driving force, has had incalculable consequences for the history of the world post-WW2. Well, I'll leave this a little to see if anyone can provide a counter-argument but I certainly can't think of a reason for not putting him in the top list. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:40, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

: I don't reject it, but more explanation is needed in the entry. I'm not aware that his contribution to the independence of India was on par with Gandhi or politicians in England.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (EDT)
::I've added more explanation without making the explanation excessively long. I should point out (again) that the contributions of some of the American politicians in the top list are less-than-obvious to someone from outside the USA. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:06, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Citation to Jinnah's career in law added as requested by Andy. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:53, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

== Churchill ==

SeanS: no-one responded to what I said about Churchill's career before politics (see under Thatcher, above). I'll leave it a bit (it's bedtime here) and have a look at what others say tomorrow. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:56, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:No-one has responded to my comment above for 24 hours so I've moved Churchill (again) to the list of people whose careers before politics need further consideration. If Thatcher's career before politics wasn't substantial enough to merit being in the top list, Churchill's certainly wasn't. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:50, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Politicians Who Had a Real Career

2011-08-25T03:42:41Z

Austenbosten: /* Why is Michelle Bachmann the only one who has her jobs listed in a footnote as opposed to in the body of the article? */

==This is interesting==
Just to clarify do you mean people who are not "career politicians"? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:06, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:Oh yeah, I added Herman Cain. Would he qualify (don't know much about US politics). [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:09, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Significance, and alphabetization ==

The list is for ''significant'' politicians who have had some influence. Many who have been added do not qualify. They need to be moved to the lower category.

Also, why alphabetize rather than rank by influence?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:33, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:What would qualify as significance? I moved Franken because, though his career was perhaps less-than-serious, as a senator, he makes law. Perhaps that could be the judge of influence? And I thought alphabetization would be effective for the purposes of locating a certain name following the explansion of the article. --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:03, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::Good point about the value of alphabetization ... if there are enough names whereby it becomes an issue. Many of the names need to be moved to the "not significant" category. For example, unless you can identify a real influence that Al Franken has had, then he does not belong on the real list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:08, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::I moved Franken.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 21:12, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::(edit conflict) Until such a time, I think alphabetization is still desirable, to avoid getting into arguments over who is more influential than whom. Regarding Franken, he has presided over two Supreme Court Justice confirmations, intoduced [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:S1495: a bill] to provide service dogs to disabled veterans as well as an amendment to the appropriations bill regarding contract disputes, and was in the national news a good deal due to his election controversies. (This is assuming that the positivity or negativity of influence is moot). --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:17, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Land surveying ==

I see Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were moved out of the list. Both were land surveyors for several years, which ''is'' a "real" job. They might not have been hugely successful at the position, but it is a job that has real responsibility and there are legal consequences if done incorrectly. Mount Rushmore have 3 surveyors on it - only Theodore Roosevelt had the poor judgement of not attempting the profession. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:21, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Eisenhower ==

He was a five-star general in the Army and was very influential in WWII. He helped with the Invasion of Normandy.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 21:22, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obama ==

Whether you like him or hate him, he ''is'' the president of the United States. How can it be said he isn't "significant" in politics? What has all the fighting been about the past three years then? --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:24, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:Edited to add - if he's insignificant, why does CP have so many articles about him and his administration's policies? --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:30, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::Because he's a black atheist Muslim foreign liberal. [[User:TerryB|TerryB]] 14:44, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I am sure this was not the authors intent, but the above statement could come of as racist. I think he meant to say "a Black Muslim" - which is a political group. But by inserting atheist in between, it looks like "black" is being used in a perjorative way. The author might want to rephrase it.--[[User:PeterNant|PeterNant]] 17:08, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obama ??? ==

[http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Politicians_Who_Had_a_Real_Career&curid=114700&diff=898411&oldid=898410 I am curious about edit.] Obama had a very wealthy career as a attorney and author before stepping into the political fray. Why does it not count? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:49, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
: (Edit conflict) Also, why would there be question marks by Obama's name, but attorney by Santorum's, despite Santorum only having 4 years under his law belt and Obama having 9+? --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:51, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::And what does "no clear influence in politics mean"? He's the president!!! Can't get much more influential than that! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:08, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

:::Surely influence means more than someone's title or position. Otherwise, the 44 most influential people in American history would be the 44 presidents, which is obviously not the case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:06, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::But he has quite a clear influence. He is the President. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:17, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::So Barack Obama is no longer destroying the country? What a glorious day for America. --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 23:19, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::Folks, position does not equal influence. Jesus had no position at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:39, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::But Obama has huge influence. He can sign things into law that cause massive changes. How do you classify influence? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:41, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::::[[Thomas Edison]] was named by Life magazine as the most influential person in the entire world in the second millennium. Yet he did not sign anything into law.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yes, but the section is titled "No clear influence ''in politics''." Obama clearly has enormous influence in politics. Particularly in that he controls the military, has a presidential veto and can pardon criminals. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 00:53, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

Position does not necessarily equate to influence - but it makes it more likely that they had influence, but not certain. Ie. Michele Bachmann has spent most of her time in Congress when Republicans were in the minority. This is one of the reasons why most of the bills she has submitted have not been passed into law: her party lacked the political numbers to be able to do so. Compare this to a Democratic Congressman elected at the same time, whose party did have control in Congress, who would most likely have had a larger impact because the bills introduced would have been more likely to get further. And although the 43 most influential people in American politics would not consist of the 43 American Presidents (not 44, Grover Cleveland is counted twice), but if you tried to list the top 250 influential people in American politics, you would get nearly all of them in that list (not William Henry Harrison, serving for 1 month, and like). And with regards to Jesus being influential without a position, his main influence was not political, in fact his political influence could be considered minimal (ignoring the effect centuries later, which surely would not be relevant). Therefore Jesus would not be on this list, as this is about political influence in the US. - JamesCA, August 8 2011
:The trouble with this list is that it's often hard to evaluate a person's true influence until some years after the peak of their career - it's one thing to make policies or speeches while in office, and another to influence the actions of those who follow you. I don't think the list should include anyone who entered politics less than 25 years ago, since such inclusions cannot take a fully informed perspective.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:03, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Definition of influence ==

Andy, please give a definition of "influence" for us to work with. Thanks. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 00:15, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I am curious as well. I am reluctant to add any more names until a clearer pattern emerges. --[[User:SteveK|SteveK]] 00:22, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::It's obvious what "influence" is, isn't it? It means changing the way people view or conduct their lives. Rubber-stamping laws passed by Congress doesn't rank high on the list, but the media of course make money by pretending otherwise.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:05, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Then Obama qualifies, but for the wrong reasons. forcing people into health care, downgrading the credit rating etc etc are all due to his political influence. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 01:10, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::I assume it isn't ''President Obama's war in Libya'' any longer? [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 02:01, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::If you're going to consider Obama not influential, then you can't complain about his policies, only complain about incomptetence. Because if he is not influential, then his policies don't matter, and aren't worth complaining about. Complain about the policies of the Democratic Party, instead of the man who is supposedly their puppet (which I think deserves enough evidence that maybe a page on the Debate Topics should be started?) - JamesCA, August 8 2011

::::That's like say no one should complain about a lack of leadership, which is similar to a leader who lacks influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:39, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::It's not like that. I said complain about incompetence, which is a lack of leadership/a leader who lacks influence. But if he isn't influential, then his policies don't matter, because he has no effect on them. Once he is influential, then his policies matter because then he can do something about them. - JamesCA, August 8 2011

== LBJ??? ==

LBJ taught at a school near the Mexico border in a town called Cotulla for 1 year. He then returned to teachers college, finished his diploma and taught at a High School in Houston for 1 semester, before taking a job as a congressman's assistant in Washington. He was then appointed head of the Texas NYA (a new deal program) before geing elected congressman a couple of years later. In other words LBJ had no significant career prior to getting into politics. For this reason I will remove his name. Whatever you can say about LBJ (and there is a lot to say) you cannot say he wasn't a career politician. --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 02:40, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Problem with organization ==

I don't really understand the logic of this page. The first part is clear enough, a list of politicians who had success in other careers before entering politics, but the second section seems to be talking about something different entirely. Do you mean for "No real influence in politics" to be the opposite category of "significant politicians who had a real career (outside of politics)"? Wouldn't a more logical second category be "Career Politicians," or "Politicians with no real career outside of politics"?

I only ask because I can think of several cases where a politician both had a real career outside politics and were not extremely influential in politics. Sunny Bono comes to mind, an extraordinarily successful musician who did relatively little as a congressman. Ross Perot and Steve Forbes are both successful businessmen who have never managed to break through to meaningful political careers. As others have argued above, Obama can't be considered to have little influence in politics, since the president is by definition the most important politician in the system. However, there is a case to be made that he never had much of a career before entering politics. At least not one befitting a well-connected double Ivy League graduate who has a J.D. from Harvard and worked on the Law Review. [[User:JDWpianist|JDWpianist]] 08:28, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
::You're right JDW. You'd think that a guy with that kind of pedigree would be doing some really interesting/earth-shattering/high-stakes and high-paying work, maybe in the private sector or in academia, before moving on to politics. Otherwise, what a waste of time and potential. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:02, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::That's a strange remark, John (or are you being ironic?) Whether you like his brand of politics or not, he's decided to devote his undoubted potential to national-level politics. Seeking elected office in a democracy is a worthy ambition. Why do you regard it as a waste? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:30, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Duke of Wellington ==

Confused newcomer here. Why is the 1st Duke of Wellington in the list headed "No clear inluence in politics"? He was the dominant figure on the right of British politics from 1829 to 1848. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:27, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:If explained in the entry, that's a good reason to promote him to the top list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: OK, so I've done this for Wellington and also for MacMillan and Chamberlain. I've left Heseltine, Major and Baldwin in the bottom list - perhaps they're examples of how a significant career before/outside politics doesn't prepare you for high office. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:05, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::Chamberlain was a typical liberal appeaser. He had no clear influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:08, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: I think you need to bring yourself up-to-date on British history. Chamberlain was libelled as an appeaser by the authors of a leftist pamphlet called ''The Guilty Men'', published in 1940. Many of the leftists who wrote the pamphlet were much more strongly in favour of appeasement than Chamberlain was. Churchill admired and trusted him and placed him in charge of domestic policy. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:16, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: (edit conflict) Sorry... what? Chamberlain was a typical inter-war Tory. He hated war and was prepared to do anything to stop it! His only major opponent was the ex-Liberal Winston Churchill! Without Chamberlain, the Czech appeasement deal would never have happened and the war would have been different because Czechoslovakia would have had a chance to defend itself. I really don't see how you can write him off so easily. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:18, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::The alternative to Chamberlain as PM in 1937 was Halifax, in which case there would have been more enthusiastic appeasement and no military build-up, and Britain would have become the western outpost of the Reich. No, Chamberlain's judgement in foreign policy wasn't immaculate but considering that his Foreign Secretary was Halifax and that Parliament, ''especially Labour'', was very strongly pro-appeasement, it wasn't as bad as ''The Guilty Men'' made out. Your line about "typical inter-war Tory" is incorrect; his achievements in improving working conditions and in economics were genuine. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:27, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::: Sorry, but there wasn't really a choice in '37. Baldwin advised the King to send for Chamberlain, and he did. The choice was Halifax vs Churchill a few years later. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:32, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::: The debate took place within the Tory party. They chose the outstanding domestic politician of the first half of the 20th century although it would shortly become apparent that the expertise the PM would need was in foreign affairs. (But had they chosen the leading foreign affairs expert, history would have been disastrously different...) Modern historians are much less harsh on Chamberlain than their predecessors. If he had stood up to Germany in 1938, he would have given Hitler the opportunity to drag Britain into a war which she could not have won, under-equipped and without the support of France. The Czechoslovak economy and military was relatively strong but too small to resist the Wehrmacht. The real damage was done about 5 years earlier, when Baldwin refused to re-arm. Chamberlain's own policy as PM was the classic, "if you hope for peace, prepare for war" but that doesn't work against a madman. It's now generally understood that Chamberlain did ''not'' trust Hitler but felt he had no alternative in the Munich Conference; he certainly had no sympathy with the Nazis, unlike some more aristocratic Tories. It's also widely recognised that his very real achievements as Chancellor put Britain into a position in which rearmament from 1937 onwards was economically possible. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:53, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Ron Paul ==

For the benefit of non-US editors, please could someone explain who Ron Paul is. The page describes him as "the single most influential presidential candidate in the past decade". I must say that he's completely unknown in the UK and I don't see that he won many votes in Presidential elections.

The point is to have a benchmark so we know where to add names of the many politicians who've had significant outside careers: why is Ron Paul in the "influential" list and the Duke of Wellington in the "not influential" list? Or for that matter, Neville Chamberlain: he had one of the most influential ''peace-time'' careers of any politician in the UK in the 20th century. As Health Minister, he got the first Factory Act passed, a keystone of legislation on safety at work, and as Chancellor, he ensured that Britain had the economic strength and military spending it needed to fight Hitler. Churchill inspired the Spitfire pilots but Chamberlain got the Spitfires built. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:49, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Significant isn't the same thing as good ==

Mr Schlafly, as you give history lessons (are you a professional history teacher?) you surely understand that many significant politicians weren't good people. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:12, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:Regarding Heydrich and Lenin: you've now placed them in the category of people whose career outside politics needs discussion. They were both thoroughly evil people but they both had significant careers before going into politics and were both extremely significant (negatively) as politicians. When you say, "Significant politicians", do you mean, "Significant politicians whose policies Andy Schlafly approves of"? Please let me know because if you do, perhaps it would not be a good use of my time or that of other editors to attempt to assist you. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:21, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Trudeau, Levesque, Parizeau, Mulroney as "undeserving" ==

By what definition are these four men, who together and in opposition completely changed the political landscape of a country that happens to be our largest trading partner "undeserving"? [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 19:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I would consider them morally undeserving. Levesque and Parizeau were separatists. Mulroney was corrupt and Trudeau was a socialist. In terms of influence, I might say Levesque because he was the first PQ premier. Trudeau and Mulroney were long serving but did not really do that much to change the country. Parizeau was a failure.
:This article isn't about moral purity. Read the title of the article: "Politicians who had a real career." They were politicians. They were important politicians. They had careers before embarking in politics. Therefore, they deserve to be in the article. Your assertion that Trudeau and Mulroney didn't change the country is absurd. Trudeau, if he did nothing else, repatriated the constitution and gave the country the Charter of rights and Freedoms. Mulroney, if he did nothing else, opened the door for the a complete retooling of Canada's concept of a "social safety net." Parizeau might not have succeeded in bringing about Quebec independence, but he came very close, and Quebec-Canada relations have never been the same since 1995; moreover he was the financial brains behind the creation and expansion of "Quebec. Inc in the 1970s and 1980s. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 21:38, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: Headlines are concise out of necessity. Implicit in the headline for this entry is the word "influential", as has already been explained before on this talk page. Someone who merely "opened the door" doesn't count; doormen are not counted among the most influential people, unless they do something in addition to opening doors.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:42, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Pierre Trudeau wrote a new constitution for Canada. Writing a new constitution for a country is being a doorman? Look at Canada in 1983 when he left office, and look at Canada when Mulroney left office--do those countries look at all the same to you? Look at Quebec in 1976 before Levesque. Look at Quebec when Parizeau left office -- does that look at all like the same place? [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 21:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::Honestly, Canada does look the same to me throughout that period: beautiful landscape, terrific people, but headed in the misguided [[liberal]] direction. It's a tragedy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:44, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Confusion ==

Is there some special set of criteria here? Why are people like Margaret Thatcher being deleted while others like Lech Walesa are being moved to different sections? It's pretty clear that these two had significant careers before becoming politicians (Thatcher's science background was often referenced during her term as PM). I don't see why they shouldn't make the list, while Michele Bachmann, who has had no career outside politics at all, makes the top list. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I would suggest including an introductory paragraph at the top, to help clarify what exactly this is about. Certainly, Lech Walesa had a very clear and very real career, so why does he need "further discussion?" It is, I admit, an interesting idea to analyze the pre-politics careers of those that would be our leaders. But I'm not sure of the intentions of this essay nor its contents.--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 23:24, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::Thatcher did not have a real career outside of government. Majoring in chemistry is not a real career.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::[[Homeschooling]] 5 kids and helping raise about two-dozen additional foster children, as [[Michele Bachmann]] did, is a real career.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:37, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: I don't consider homeschooling 5 kids and raising foster kids a career. Nothing against homeschooling, but anyone can do it (although its hard to do it well). Same with raising foster kids. In Canada, most of the foster parents are on welfare and take in kids because the money does not come off of their cheques. Do they have careers ? Bachmann has two law degrees and was a successful lawyer. That is not something everyone could do. That is what I would call a career--[[User:PeterNant|PeterNant]] 18:01, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::Lech Walesa may merit the top list. Good point. Perhaps a greater explanation of what his career and political influence were would help.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:40, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I really am also very confused - I added the two-term Mayor of New York and the likely GOP Presidential nominee, yet they have "no clear influence in politics"? Sorry, but I don't understand at all - they are both very significant figures? [[User:JanW|JanW]] 23:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I am confused as to how Bachmann is considered to have a real career but not Obama? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:58, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
::I'm confused too. I accept that Chamberlain's later career was controversial but why on earth have (1) Harold MacMillan and (2) Alex Salmond been removed from the top list? (1) Decolonisation of Africa was a big ahievement and (2) like him or loath him, Salmond is probably the most effective politician in the UK today. Perhaps I could politely suggest that the contributions of certain editors are not being made with the benefit of a strong sense of history...? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:06, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Insight ==

Hi folks. I believe I have just had a fascinating conservative insight, based on the current form of this list. I present it here for your perusal and hope that it will provoke discussion. Noting that there are very few influential liberals in the first list, I conclude that

'''Nearly all influential liberals are professional politicians. In contrast, many influential conservatives hold "real" jobs prior to entering politics.'''

This appears to be particularly true among conservatives whose views align with those of the Tea Party. I believe this insight is well-supported by the data presented here, as soon as one has appropriately defined "influential" and "real job". --[[User:PhilS33|PhilS33]] 09:17, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:Superb insight!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:45, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::Indeed. "As soon as one has appropriately defined 'influential' and 'real job.'" It's all about how you choose to define your terms. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:47, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Not necessarily. "Influential" and ""real job" are hardly arcane or technical terms - they are commonly understood by most people. Now of course influence is not a binary quality, but one can certainly say that the more influential, the more likely to have had a real job (or vice versa) without getting bogged down in pedantic definitions.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:04, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::It seems like this is almost a truism. Those who hold real jobs will gain an understanding of the value of money and the damage caused by over-regulation and high taxes. Thus, they will tend to become more conservative with time. Those who never hold real jobs will have little grasp of the value of a dollar or the harm of government overreach, and will thus tend towards liberalism. It's not unlike the difference between a child who is expected to attend to chores and a part-time job in order to earn spending money, as opposed to one who is spoiled and freely given money without responsibility. The first child will learn to be independent and self-sufficient, while the second will learn to run to mommy and daddy (or, in the case of liberals, the government) with outstretched hands whenever money runs short. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 11:43, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

PhilS's insight looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy as far as this site is concerned. Politicians that conservatives don't approve of aren't included in the list at the top part of the page (or get removed from it as soon as Mr Schlafly spots them). Winston Churchill and Reinhard Heydrich had careers as military officers of about the same length of time and were two of the most influential politicians of any country in the 20th century. Which implies that having a real job before entering politics won't make you the kind of politician decent people would approve of. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:35, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:The list is objective. Winston Churchill was a phenomenal writer and historian, and he had a significant political influence. That obviously warrants the top list. Reinhard Heydrich, in contrast, was an immoral underachiever outside of politics, and the horrific crimes of Nazism continued after Heydrich died at age 38.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:21, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::The list cannot be considered "objective" for a moment as you say, as long as former US Presidents, current Presidential primary candidates, sitting US Senators and Governors of States are not considered to have had "influence". It seems very strange that you would take such a view, I must say? --[[User:JanW|JanW]] 16:31, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

==Denis Healey==

Denis Healey introduced monetarism to the British economy in the late seventies. If that's not influential, what is?

As for the "obscure or otherwise inept Brits" section, A+ for childish humour, Z-- for political insight ~~Rafael
::Hey, I tried to argue that a guy who [[Pierre Trudeau|gave his country a new constitution]] was influential, and got shot down for no discernable reason. Good luck with this. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 11:45, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:::The policy of every British Chancellor since 1976, except Gordon Brown, has essentially followed Healey's policies. He's much more highly regarded - including by conservatives - and has been much more influential in the long term than either Wilson or Callahan, the PMs in whose cabinets he served. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:57, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::I've put DH back in the top list. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:02, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Mandela ==

Can Mandela be said to have had a 'real' career before politics? He was an aristocrat who ran away from an arranged marriage and worked for a few years as a solicitors clerk after being fired from manual employment. Hardly a career... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:15, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:I see your point. It's not like he played a sport or sang songs, you know, really important careers. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 12:21, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::I'd say that being a popular singer is more significant than being fired from a factory and failing the law exams, especially given Mandela's privileged background. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]]
:::I agree. So unless anyone objects, I'll remove Mandela from the list in the next few days because, although he was an extraodinarily influential politician, he had no real other career. - JamesCA, August 15 2011
:::I've removed him now. - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 02:17, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

== Putin ==

"(I don't think the KGB is a career outside of government)", but Washington's military career, which was certainly a government job, counts? I too am confused. [[User:ACork|ACork]] 17:25, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

: Washington is listed for reasons more than his brilliant military career which, by the way, was not a government job like the KGB.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:10, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::So, 'working for The Government' can mean different things when applied to different people. Sounds very like Orwell's (that good working class Conservative) Newspeak. As you are moving the goalposts depending whether the person fits your agenda or not I'll leave you to it. By the way, both Churchill and Thatcher were Atheists. Godspeed [[User:ACork|ACork]] 12:35, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

:::A mostly volunteer army is hardly "the government" in the same sense that career KGB functionaries are. And, as I said, Washington had a distinguished career in land development.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:59, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== "What is a beach-master"? ==

Surprised a history teacher doesn't know this. It's a military officer in charge of a section of beach during an amphibious invasion. He's the guy who's in charge of making sure everything/everybody that lands on his section of the beach goes where it's supposed to and is responsible for keeping things running in a smooth and unobstructed manner. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 22:26, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

: OK, that seems clear enough, thanks ... but if it isn't more what you describe, then I don't think it qualifies as a significant career for the purposes of this list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
::Well, I heard a radio interview with Healey in which he spoke extensively and movingly about Anzio. If you don't think it counts as significant work experience, I really pity you. Please have more respect for the armed forces. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:28, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

== Ike ==

What part of his career is there to discuss? He was an officer from more or less the midway point of WWI and kept getting promoted until he was made "Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces in Europe" culminating in the organisation and leading of D Day. He then became NATO supreme commander in Europe from 1951 until he ran for president in 1954. And that's just the highlights! I understand that Ike is not popular on this site, but lets not pretend that he didn't have a significant pre politics career. The very reason he won two landslide elections was because of his pre-politics career. Unless someone can give a coherent argument to the contrary, I will move him up to the top section. (And I don't think it can be argued he didn't have influence - his role in ending the Korean war, his moderating the demands of the Taft led senate all point to a significant influence, for good or bad). --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 03:03, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:Without objection; it is so moved. --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 15:07, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== RE: John Major ==

John Major was downgraded, and described as inept and obscure. I'd like to make a couple of points. John Major left school at 16, with only 3 O-levels. But he studied hard by correspondence course, and taught himself three more: 'British Constitution,' 'Economics,' 'Mathematics.' He helped with his father's small, failing business, and worked as a clerk. His father died, and that year, he joined the Young Conservatives, got a job with the London Electricity Board (and studied banking by correspondence while working a full time job). He became a banker with Standard Chartered Bank and became a senior executive who traveled across Africa for them. He famously began making speeches about economic conservative principles, standing on a box, at his local market, and became a Conservative Member of Parliament. He went on to be Chancellor of the Exchequer under Thatcher, and succeeded her as Prime Minister.

To me, somebody who didn't do very well at school, but worked very hard to better himself, and became a senior banking executive (remember that getting into such jobs without Oxford/Cambridge education or family connections is very difficult), then became the director of economic policy under THATCHER and then went onto be Prime Minister is a veritable conservative legend, who indeed had a solid career. He could, certainly, have earned more as a banking executive than as a politician.

Now, let's talk about influence. If directing economic policy under Thatcher isn't influence enough, lets talk about other things. He famously convinced George Bush Sr to support no fly zones in the Gulf War. If convincing the American President of something isn't influence, what is? In 1992, with Major as Leader, the conservative party gained more votes than any other British political party has ever gained in an election. More than Thatcher or Churchill ever gained! Major's Back to Basics campaign emphasized the family values which sadly were absent from the last few years of Thatcher's administration. John major did as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else: And lets remember, that's one of the most successful cases of defeating terrorism ever. [[User:AlycaZ|AlycaZ]] 23:32, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

: You state your arguments very well. Thanks - I learned from your comments. But what is John Major's '''''influence'''''? It seems Major didn't recognize the importance of social issues ... and perhaps his somewhat traditional career was part of the problem. Most on the list have unique careers that enable them to bring something insightful to politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Did you not read the last paragraph or something, Andy? The editor gave a nice synopsis on Major's influence, including his recognition of social issues." '''If directing economic policy under Thatcher isn't influence enough''', lets talk about other things. He famously convinced George Bush Sr to support no fly zones in the Gulf War. '''If convincing the American President of something isn't influence, what is'''? In 1992, with Major as Leader, '''the conservative party gained more votes than any other British political party has ever gained in an election.''' More than Thatcher or Churchill ever gained! Major's Back to Basics campaign '''emphasized the family values which sadly were absent from the last few years of Thatcher's administration'''. John major did '''as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else''': And lets remember, that's one of the most successful cases of defeating terrorism ever. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:19, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::'solve the Northern Ireland problems'? I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure NI's problems are far from solved. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:41, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::1.He didn't say he "solved" them, he said he ''' did as much to solve (them) as anybody else.''' There's a difference. 2. While Northern Ireland is hardly "solved," credit where credit is due: it's much more peaceful there now than it was for a long, long time. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 10:45, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Well quite. That's rather weak praise, don't you think? He contributed 'as much as anyone' - not the most, just 'as much as' others, to the improving - not the solving - of a problem. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:53, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I have no opinion on Major one way or the other. I'm just taken aback at the fundamentally poor basic reading comprehension displayed in this thread. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 11:03, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I certainly support the claim that he "did as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else". Bliar tends to get the credit for the Good Friday Agreement but much of the hard work was done by John Major and was completed by the excellent Mo Mowlam (whose success in N.Ireland made Bliar insanely jealous of her...) [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:27, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::::: I don't doubt that John Major had some influence, but nothing cited above rises to the level of political influence of the others on the top list. And, alas, his tenure in power seemed to end in failure, with very little lasting influence '''''even in Britain'''''. Unfortunately, long-term failure can happen when one ignores the social issues and instead pretends that foreign and economic policies are all that matter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:40, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

His party's collapse in the elections of 1997 was down to the "sleaze factor": too many of his party had their hand in the till. To say his achievements (the extensive - and radical even by Margaret Thatcher's standards - privatisation of nationalised businesses, taking sterling out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, the Maastricht treaty, extensive reform of the civil service, laying the groundwork for the Good Friday Agreement etc) are of very little lasting influence seems like a hurried comment and not a considered and researched one[[User:Rafael|Rafael]]
:Regarding the USA politicians in the top list, you've got one (Ron Johnson) whose major achievement so far is rejecting some judicial nominees (did he make constructive suggestions for alternatives?), one (Rick Scott) described as an innovative local government official and one (Michele Bachmann) who sounds like a wannabe President (sounds a bit like B.H.O. ...?) Set against these, you have to forgive Brits who think that John Major had some significant achievements, especially in Northern Ireland. And (thanks for reminding us, Rafael), almost the whole country with the exception of Bliar is delighted he got us out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:27, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

::I think a lot of good points have been made, but I'd like to present a new argument: John Major cemented conservatism in Britain. Thatcher's administration was a whirlwind of reform and change with many privatisations. While Thatcher was indeed brilliant, she became an incredibly divisive figure and, had things continued (remember the poll tax riots), Thatcher as leader in 1992 may well have seriously lost the election: and an incoming Labour government could well have renationalised (at least some) industries - either way, it would be a point for debate. John Major was a much less divisive figure. By taking over as Prime Minister, a line was drawn under the Thatcher era, and it was his role to cement it. Thatcher continuing as Prime Minister could certainly have led to a Labour majority reversing some or all of her work. Major's 5 years as a 'steady' Prime Minister, without the huge upheaval and reform cemented the idea that no government would nationalise industries. In fact, Labour could only win the 1997 election by promising that. This was something of a rebirth for the Conservative Party, and let's not forget that William Hague was first a minister under him, and David Cameron personally worked with him. He also promoted Iain Duncan Smith and Ken Clarke - he was certainly influential in shaping the influential British conservatives of today. So I think his influence can be summed up as follows:

# Significant and successful work towards peace in Northern Ireland.
# Fighting tooth-and-nail for Britain's right to remain a member of the European Union, but not join the Euro. Joining the Euro, as Blair later wanted, would have ruined the country.
# Played a very important role in the fact that Britain's industries are now privately owned, not nationally owned. If Thatcher had continued until she lost, we may have seen a reversal of this.
# Played a very important part in shaping the Conservative 'line up' today.
# Directed Thatcher's economic policy for over a year.

In the late 80s, the Conservative party was considered the 'nasty party' and a swing of a few percent in an election would've seen Labour get back in. It was only by having a mild-mannered, less divisive figure that Thatcherism became cemented. "We're all Thatcherites now," as Peter Mandelson said. From a conservative point of view, having influenced Thatcher's policies AND influenced the line up of modern conservative figures, he is a big hitter. I think that if the UK was in the Euro, everybody would be blaming John Major right now. But he made the right decision, and fought for it, and that is affecting the UK's GDP recovery to this day. [[User:AlycaZ|AlycaZ]] 21:34, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

: Thanks for the interesting analysis. John Major apparently had some significance, but part of this is speculative ("If Thatcher had continued until she lost ...") and several of the policies probably would have continued with or without Major (e.g., keeping the pound out of the Euro). So I doubt that Major's marginal significance rises to the level of the other listed politicians.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:40, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:: Andy, please read and pay attention to what other British editors have written. Thatcher would undoubtedly have lost an election in 1992, giving us Neil Kinnock for Prime Minister (aargh!!), John Smith as Chancellor who would have increased taxes and no-one with the guts to take Britain out of the ERM. (Remember that even now, Bliar, who was ''the'' rising star in 1992, is even now saying that Britain should have joined and should now join the Euro - what an idiot.) [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 10:43, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

::: I appreciate your insights and have learned from them. That said, John Major was a "status quo" type of politician who quickly departed from political discourse as soon as he was voted out of office. There is not much lasting influence there.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:22, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Mustafa Kemal ==

I regards to Mustafa Kemal I personally think that his longstanding service record in the Turkish forces and his driving force in the Young Turks movement makes him a certain candidate for a politician who had a real career. No peanut farming or so-called organizing for him. A proud member of his country's armed forces.
--[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 23:47, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

: You may be right. Honestly, I don't know enough about Kemal's career to say. Was his military career distinguished?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:57, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

I am aware that he won twenty four medals throughout his career. Primarily awarded for distinguished service during the First World War. As well as one awarded during the war of independence. His military command record is a mixed bag i believe. Though by all accounts he seems to have been a good commander and a dutiful soldier. --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:03, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

: : Also I for his significance in history it should be his role in creating modern Turkey and making ties with the West. Its a nation that until recently had resisted the allure of Islamic extremism. --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:06, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

::: Thanks for the history - please add him to the top list with your explanations. Please note, however, that I'm reluctant to open the door to every politician who served in the military. That would be a very long list indeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:20, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: I have added him to the top list with explanation and note that he created a ''democratic'' Turkish state. Would abolishing the monarchy also qualify? --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:27, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::Kemalist Turkey wasn't a democratic nation. Kemalist Turkey was a single-party state that didn't tolerate anyone a embracing non-Turkish identity (Armenians, Greeks, and Kurds) or wishing to practice their religion and traditions without government interference. Thousands of Armenians and Greeks were killed or deported. Kemalist Turkey also embraced a sort of nationalistic socialism and statism. Kemalist Turkey also had close ties with the Soviets prior to WW2. I'm a fan of the Turkish people and their rich culture, but I'm not a fan of their government's history. --[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] 17:14, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Revision ==

I've done some revision of the essay in line with discussion on this Talk Page. My changes aren't very dramatic. E.g. I've left Jim Bunning in the top list even though he's practically unknown outside the USA, I've reluctantly left Chamberlain in the second list because I accept that his major achievements in domestic policy are eclipsed by his ambiguous and often misunderstood record in foreign policy, and I've left Heydrich in the third list because even though he fits the criteria of a significant career before politics and major "achievements" (of a kind) in politics, he was utterly awful and revolting. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:58, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

== Michele Bachmann ==

For the benefit of non-Americans to whom she's totally unknown, please could someone (Andy Schlafly?) explain what Michele Bachmann has achieved in politics that places her on a par with Churchill, Reagan or Ataturk? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:05, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

: This is a list of "Politicians Who Had a Real Career." [[Michele Bachmann]] certainly had a real career, and she's influential in the current presidential election cycle as well as Congress. It's interesting that news outside the U.S. seem to be ignoring her. Typically the [[lamestream media]] will either ignore a real [[conservative]] or try to demonize that person. In the U.S., the media are doing the latter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:37, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:: You've put her in the list of "significant politicians". Please tell us what's so significant about her. (Obama was influential in the previous presidential election cycle!) I don't think media outside the USA are ignoring her; in the UK, they tend not to pay much attention to inexperienced politicians who are wannabe Presidents. Obama didn't get much attention here until around February 2008. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:54, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

:::This list is not about titles, or who won or lost a particular election. It's about '''''influence'''''. Obama is simply trying to be reelected. That's not influence. Bachmann, in contrast, is framing the debate and moving the entire process to the more [[conservative]] side, as illustrated as recently as Thursday night when she essentially eliminated media-favorite [[Tim Pawlenty]] from contention with her response to his criticism.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:00, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Also, Michelle Bachmann is one of the leading figures of the [[Tea Party]]. You wouldn't argue that the tea party isn't influential, would you? Well Bachmann has been one of the main reasons why it has stayed at the front of the political scene.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 19:28, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::OK, understood. If influence in shaping the debate is the main factor in determining influence, I would move at least the following from List 2 to List 1:
Bush (shaped debate on how to deal with international terrorism)
Chamberlain (how can economic growth contribute to achieving peace or preparing for war)
Eisenhower (how to deal with communist expansionism)
Healey (how to achieve long-term economic stability by control of the money supply)
Kemp (how to drive prosperity by cutting taxes)
Lévesque (how far should distinct language groups have autonomy)
Major (how to achieve peace in a situation of civil strife by consensus)
Macmillan (how to decolonise empire)
Rice (as Bush Jr)
Salmond (how far should small, economically successful nations have independence)
Trudeau (how far should independent constitutions be seen as a sign of national maturity).
All these names were people of considerable experience of life and work outside politics and brought fresh ideas to framing debates of the highest importance (which is your criterion for putting Bachmann in List 1). I'll leave this posting here for a couple of hours before moving them all to List 1 in case of any reasoned objections. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 10:37, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

: I do object to equating the minor influence of the persons you list with the major influence of those in the first category. Virtually none of the people you list is cited today by many speakers or writers for having any political influence. Contrast that with Reagan, who is still frequently mentioned for his influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:42, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::Andy, Reagan isn't the issue. The issue is why the likes of Michele Bachmann, Jim Bunning, Jimmie Davis, Rand Paul and Ron Paul are in the top list. They simply don't stand comparison with Reagan, Walesa, Ataturk, Wellington or many of the names I mentioned above. Or is your list of 'Significant '''conservative''' [i.e. conservative in the sense used in the USA] politicians'? Rather than politicians in general. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 14:44, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::You still seem to be missing the point. All of the people you are labeling as insignificant (with the exception of maybe Jim Bunning and Jimmie Davis) are currently shaping the face of politics today. Ron Paul has made the idea of small government conservativism, which was considered out of the question a few years ago, one of the most popular causes today. Bachmann and Rand Paul are leading the tea party movement, which is arguably the most powerful shaping force in American politics today. I notice you didn't answer my question above; you wouldn't call the tea party non influential, would you?--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 16:25, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::I have no idea if the Tea Party is or will be influential. Better to wait until after the next General Election before you decide, perhaps? And in the long term, better to wait 10 years? John Major's standing has been steading revised upwards in the 14 years since he left office. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:37, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::I really hope you're joking. Did you pay attention to the 2010 midterm elections? The debt ceiling debate? The tea party has already profoundly shaped American politics, and this is incredibly likely to continue as American's grow more and more frustrated with Obama's policies.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 16:58, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::So shall we wait and see whether the Tea Party (and Michele Bachmann) is a long-term influence or a short-term blip? I'm really amazed by how much Americans want their senior national politicians to have no significant experience of learning how to negotiate in Washington in order to get their policies accepted, and by how quickly momentum builds up behind such complete unknowns - like Obama and now Bachmann. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:12, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Alright, clearly we're not getting anywhere here. I personally believe the Tea Party has already proven itself to be incredibly influential, and the quickness of that is probably largely due to its grassroots nature. But I think we need some input from other editors here clearly.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 17:23, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Politics is about the future, not the past, and Bachmann is hardly a "complete unknown[]." Bachmann's views and voting record have been well-known for years.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:22, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Four of them. [[User:MrMorganH|MrMorganH]] 20:46, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'll buy you a pint of the Schlafly family's finest if President Bachmann doesn't find it as difficult to negotiate with stroppy Democrats as Obama does with stroppy Republicans. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:08, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::::I appreciate your wit! But the reality is that a principled conservative can get good laws passed by Democratic Congresses better than [[RINO]]s can, as Reagan illustrated. Moreover, Bachmann's coattails could bring in a conservative Congress. We'll see. But regardless, Bachmann's influence is substantial already.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:45, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obamacare? ==

Given the radicalism of [[Obamacare]], surely someone must have exerted considerable political influence to get it passed. If not Obama, then who? --[[User:MarioD|MarioD]] 19:52, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:The liberal media. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 19:56, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

:"Obamacare" -- a named that some liberals complain about -- was surely not Obama's idea, and he certainly did not draft it. There are other liberals in government and the media.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:23, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Michelle Bachmann the only one who has her jobs listed in a footnote as opposed to in the body of the article? ==

Is there something special about Bachmann's legal career that warrants it being relegated to a footnote? She WAS a practicing lawyer, right? [[User:MrMorganH|MrMorganH]] 15:49, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

: I'm sure, like most people, Bachmann has worked in several various jobs over a period of several decades. Those other jobs are not the "career" that earns her the top category.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:45, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:: She was a tax attorney for the IRS for 5 years. I think that is considered a career and not some "various job". Also Michele Bachmann prides herself as being a former tax attorney when she's interviewed. So it needs to be stated and not footnoted (ie shuffled to the backbench), I don't think it will delineate from her years of being a mother to many foster children. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 00:04, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

:::No, a mere 5-year job is not a "real career." [[Homeschooling]] 5 kids and helping raise 23 foster children is far more substantial.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:10, 24 August 2011 (EDT)
:::: On the 5-year note, Bachmann has only been a Congresswoman for 4 1/2 years. President Bush (Snr.) was President for 4 years. Sarah Palin was Governor for 2 1/2 years. So length of time isn't the only thing that indicates whether something is a real career. Also, how is raising foster children classed as a career? Of course it is impactful, and substantial. However, I can't think of a case where doing something that doesn't earn money would be classed as a career. (I am NOT saying what she has done is worthless, just questioning whether it falls within the definition of career, because to have a career, you firstly have to be employed.) - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 07:50, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

::::Could her being a business owner of Bachmann & Associates be classified as a career, since well she and her husband own it. I'm not trying to spark any heated argument, but I feel that putting her professional accomplishments as a footnote delineates her from the other entries, also if 5 years does not constitute as a "real career" then Ronald Reagan's one-year Presidency of the SAG, should be deleted. Also if someone could post a guideline for what constitutes as a "real career" that would be very helpful. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 23:40, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

== Suggestion for no-consensus category ==

Perhaps it would be a good idea to add a list which includes those who we have not reached a consensus about? With a note as to whether the disagreement is with regards to influence, or whether they had a real career, (or both). Suggestions for the list that I've noticed so far: Barack Obama (influence), Michele Bachmann (influence and career). And then remove these from the other lists until/if a consensus is reached. I have noticed the 'needs more discussion' section, but the no-consensus section would be only for those where a (lengthy) discussion is ongoing, and it seems unlikely that a consensus will be reached in the near future. (In contrast to Nelson Mandela, which there appears to be a consensus that he had no real other career, and only after a short discussion.) - JamesCA, August 15 2011

:Thanks for the suggestion, but objective truth is not defined by consensus. Bachmann's influence and career can hardly be doubted, and just because some may not like giving her full credit that would not justify demoting her.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:42, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Jimmie Davis ==

...appears in two lists. Someone who has heard of him should decide whether or not he was (is?) significant. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:31, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

: Great point. He should be removed from the top list. I'll do so now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:31, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

== Thatcher ==

Andy, Maggie Thatcher's career before politics was more substantial than you suggest. She worked for 6 years as an industrial chemist in the food industry, developing emulsifiers for ice cream (think of that each time you dip into the freezer section of the supermarket - she had a pretty big influence in the food industry, let alone politics!) She then worked for 6 years as a barrister before becoming an MP in the 1959 general election. I'm going to restore her to the top list. If you don't agree, please give a reasoned argument. You can hardly suggest she wasn't significant! [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:23, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

:More is required than that; others on the list had far more significant careers.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

:: You'd better delete Churchill from the top list then. He was a cavalry officer for only 6 years before retiring from the army and entering politics. His career as an writer only began properly long after he began his career in politics; by the time he wrote his first well-known books, ''My Early Life'' and ''Marlborough'', he had already been Home Secretary, First Lord of the Admiralty, Minister of War and Chancellor of the Exchequer (note to yankees: that's like being in charge of homeland security, the navy, the army and the treasury). [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:57, 16 August 2011 (EDT)

== M.A. Jinnah ==

"Jinnah's influence needs more explanation"???!!! Please read what I wrote: "Successful lawyer; later one of the three main leaders of the Indian independence movement, with Gandhi and Nehru, and founder of Pakistan." What can I say? Regarding his career, he was a successful lawyer for 31 years before becoming a member of the legislature. He has been universally recognised in his lifetime and ever since as the leading muslim in the movement for Indian independence (something that affects a fifth of the world's population!) The founding of Pakistan, in which he was the driving force, has had incalculable consequences for the history of the world post-WW2. Well, I'll leave this a little to see if anyone can provide a counter-argument but I certainly can't think of a reason for not putting him in the top list. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:40, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

: I don't reject it, but more explanation is needed in the entry. I'm not aware that his contribution to the independence of India was on par with Gandhi or politicians in England.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (EDT)
::I've added more explanation without making the explanation excessively long. I should point out (again) that the contributions of some of the American politicians in the top list are less-than-obvious to someone from outside the USA. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:06, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Citation to Jinnah's career in law added as requested by Andy. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:53, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

== Churchill ==

SeanS: no-one responded to what I said about Churchill's career before politics (see under Thatcher, above). I'll leave it a bit (it's bedtime here) and have a look at what others say tomorrow. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:56, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:No-one has responded to my comment above for 24 hours so I've moved Churchill (again) to the list of people whose careers before politics need further consideration. If Thatcher's career before politics wasn't substantial enough to merit being in the top list, Churchill's certainly wasn't. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:50, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

Talk:Essay:Politicians Who Had a Real Career

2011-08-24T04:05:55Z

Austenbosten: /* Why is Michelle Bachmann the only one who has her jobs listed in a footnote as opposed to in the body of the article? */

==This is interesting==
Just to clarify do you mean people who are not "career politicians"? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:06, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:Oh yeah, I added Herman Cain. Would he qualify (don't know much about US politics). [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 18:09, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Significance, and alphabetization ==

The list is for ''significant'' politicians who have had some influence. Many who have been added do not qualify. They need to be moved to the lower category.

Also, why alphabetize rather than rank by influence?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:33, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:What would qualify as significance? I moved Franken because, though his career was perhaps less-than-serious, as a senator, he makes law. Perhaps that could be the judge of influence? And I thought alphabetization would be effective for the purposes of locating a certain name following the explansion of the article. --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:03, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::Good point about the value of alphabetization ... if there are enough names whereby it becomes an issue. Many of the names need to be moved to the "not significant" category. For example, unless you can identify a real influence that Al Franken has had, then he does not belong on the real list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:08, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::I moved Franken.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 21:12, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::(edit conflict) Until such a time, I think alphabetization is still desirable, to avoid getting into arguments over who is more influential than whom. Regarding Franken, he has presided over two Supreme Court Justice confirmations, intoduced [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:S1495: a bill] to provide service dogs to disabled veterans as well as an amendment to the appropriations bill regarding contract disputes, and was in the national news a good deal due to his election controversies. (This is assuming that the positivity or negativity of influence is moot). --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:17, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Land surveying ==

I see Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were moved out of the list. Both were land surveyors for several years, which ''is'' a "real" job. They might not have been hugely successful at the position, but it is a job that has real responsibility and there are legal consequences if done incorrectly. Mount Rushmore have 3 surveyors on it - only Theodore Roosevelt had the poor judgement of not attempting the profession. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:21, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Eisenhower ==

He was a five-star general in the Army and was very influential in WWII. He helped with the Invasion of Normandy.--[[User:JamesWilson|JamesWilson]] 21:22, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obama ==

Whether you like him or hate him, he ''is'' the president of the United States. How can it be said he isn't "significant" in politics? What has all the fighting been about the past three years then? --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:24, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:Edited to add - if he's insignificant, why does CP have so many articles about him and his administration's policies? --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 21:30, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::Because he's a black atheist Muslim foreign liberal. [[User:TerryB|TerryB]] 14:44, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I am sure this was not the authors intent, but the above statement could come of as racist. I think he meant to say "a Black Muslim" - which is a political group. But by inserting atheist in between, it looks like "black" is being used in a perjorative way. The author might want to rephrase it.--[[User:PeterNant|PeterNant]] 17:08, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obama ??? ==

[http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Essay:Politicians_Who_Had_a_Real_Career&curid=114700&diff=898411&oldid=898410 I am curious about edit.] Obama had a very wealthy career as a attorney and author before stepping into the political fray. Why does it not count? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:49, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
: (Edit conflict) Also, why would there be question marks by Obama's name, but attorney by Santorum's, despite Santorum only having 4 years under his law belt and Obama having 9+? --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 21:51, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::And what does "no clear influence in politics mean"? He's the president!!! Can't get much more influential than that! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:08, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

:::Surely influence means more than someone's title or position. Otherwise, the 44 most influential people in American history would be the 44 presidents, which is obviously not the case.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:06, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
::::But he has quite a clear influence. He is the President. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:17, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::So Barack Obama is no longer destroying the country? What a glorious day for America. --[[User:Chouston|Chouston]] 23:19, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::Folks, position does not equal influence. Jesus had no position at all.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:39, 7 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::But Obama has huge influence. He can sign things into law that cause massive changes. How do you classify influence? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:41, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::::[[Thomas Edison]] was named by Life magazine as the most influential person in the entire world in the second millennium. Yet he did not sign anything into law.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yes, but the section is titled "No clear influence ''in politics''." Obama clearly has enormous influence in politics. Particularly in that he controls the military, has a presidential veto and can pardon criminals. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 00:53, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

Position does not necessarily equate to influence - but it makes it more likely that they had influence, but not certain. Ie. Michele Bachmann has spent most of her time in Congress when Republicans were in the minority. This is one of the reasons why most of the bills she has submitted have not been passed into law: her party lacked the political numbers to be able to do so. Compare this to a Democratic Congressman elected at the same time, whose party did have control in Congress, who would most likely have had a larger impact because the bills introduced would have been more likely to get further. And although the 43 most influential people in American politics would not consist of the 43 American Presidents (not 44, Grover Cleveland is counted twice), but if you tried to list the top 250 influential people in American politics, you would get nearly all of them in that list (not William Henry Harrison, serving for 1 month, and like). And with regards to Jesus being influential without a position, his main influence was not political, in fact his political influence could be considered minimal (ignoring the effect centuries later, which surely would not be relevant). Therefore Jesus would not be on this list, as this is about political influence in the US. - JamesCA, August 8 2011
:The trouble with this list is that it's often hard to evaluate a person's true influence until some years after the peak of their career - it's one thing to make policies or speeches while in office, and another to influence the actions of those who follow you. I don't think the list should include anyone who entered politics less than 25 years ago, since such inclusions cannot take a fully informed perspective.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 09:03, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Definition of influence ==

Andy, please give a definition of "influence" for us to work with. Thanks. --[[User:SharonW|SharonW]] 00:15, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I am curious as well. I am reluctant to add any more names until a clearer pattern emerges. --[[User:SteveK|SteveK]] 00:22, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::It's obvious what "influence" is, isn't it? It means changing the way people view or conduct their lives. Rubber-stamping laws passed by Congress doesn't rank high on the list, but the media of course make money by pretending otherwise.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:05, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Then Obama qualifies, but for the wrong reasons. forcing people into health care, downgrading the credit rating etc etc are all due to his political influence. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 01:10, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::I assume it isn't ''President Obama's war in Libya'' any longer? [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 02:01, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::If you're going to consider Obama not influential, then you can't complain about his policies, only complain about incomptetence. Because if he is not influential, then his policies don't matter, and aren't worth complaining about. Complain about the policies of the Democratic Party, instead of the man who is supposedly their puppet (which I think deserves enough evidence that maybe a page on the Debate Topics should be started?) - JamesCA, August 8 2011

::::That's like say no one should complain about a lack of leadership, which is similar to a leader who lacks influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:39, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::It's not like that. I said complain about incompetence, which is a lack of leadership/a leader who lacks influence. But if he isn't influential, then his policies don't matter, because he has no effect on them. Once he is influential, then his policies matter because then he can do something about them. - JamesCA, August 8 2011

== LBJ??? ==

LBJ taught at a school near the Mexico border in a town called Cotulla for 1 year. He then returned to teachers college, finished his diploma and taught at a High School in Houston for 1 semester, before taking a job as a congressman's assistant in Washington. He was then appointed head of the Texas NYA (a new deal program) before geing elected congressman a couple of years later. In other words LBJ had no significant career prior to getting into politics. For this reason I will remove his name. Whatever you can say about LBJ (and there is a lot to say) you cannot say he wasn't a career politician. --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 02:40, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Problem with organization ==

I don't really understand the logic of this page. The first part is clear enough, a list of politicians who had success in other careers before entering politics, but the second section seems to be talking about something different entirely. Do you mean for "No real influence in politics" to be the opposite category of "significant politicians who had a real career (outside of politics)"? Wouldn't a more logical second category be "Career Politicians," or "Politicians with no real career outside of politics"?

I only ask because I can think of several cases where a politician both had a real career outside politics and were not extremely influential in politics. Sunny Bono comes to mind, an extraordinarily successful musician who did relatively little as a congressman. Ross Perot and Steve Forbes are both successful businessmen who have never managed to break through to meaningful political careers. As others have argued above, Obama can't be considered to have little influence in politics, since the president is by definition the most important politician in the system. However, there is a case to be made that he never had much of a career before entering politics. At least not one befitting a well-connected double Ivy League graduate who has a J.D. from Harvard and worked on the Law Review. [[User:JDWpianist|JDWpianist]] 08:28, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
::You're right JDW. You'd think that a guy with that kind of pedigree would be doing some really interesting/earth-shattering/high-stakes and high-paying work, maybe in the private sector or in academia, before moving on to politics. Otherwise, what a waste of time and potential. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:02, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::That's a strange remark, John (or are you being ironic?) Whether you like his brand of politics or not, he's decided to devote his undoubted potential to national-level politics. Seeking elected office in a democracy is a worthy ambition. Why do you regard it as a waste? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:30, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Duke of Wellington ==

Confused newcomer here. Why is the 1st Duke of Wellington in the list headed "No clear inluence in politics"? He was the dominant figure on the right of British politics from 1829 to 1848. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:27, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:If explained in the entry, that's a good reason to promote him to the top list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: OK, so I've done this for Wellington and also for MacMillan and Chamberlain. I've left Heseltine, Major and Baldwin in the bottom list - perhaps they're examples of how a significant career before/outside politics doesn't prepare you for high office. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:05, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::Chamberlain was a typical liberal appeaser. He had no clear influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:08, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: I think you need to bring yourself up-to-date on British history. Chamberlain was libelled as an appeaser by the authors of a leftist pamphlet called ''The Guilty Men'', published in 1940. Many of the leftists who wrote the pamphlet were much more strongly in favour of appeasement than Chamberlain was. Churchill admired and trusted him and placed him in charge of domestic policy. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:16, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: (edit conflict) Sorry... what? Chamberlain was a typical inter-war Tory. He hated war and was prepared to do anything to stop it! His only major opponent was the ex-Liberal Winston Churchill! Without Chamberlain, the Czech appeasement deal would never have happened and the war would have been different because Czechoslovakia would have had a chance to defend itself. I really don't see how you can write him off so easily. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:18, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::The alternative to Chamberlain as PM in 1937 was Halifax, in which case there would have been more enthusiastic appeasement and no military build-up, and Britain would have become the western outpost of the Reich. No, Chamberlain's judgement in foreign policy wasn't immaculate but considering that his Foreign Secretary was Halifax and that Parliament, ''especially Labour'', was very strongly pro-appeasement, it wasn't as bad as ''The Guilty Men'' made out. Your line about "typical inter-war Tory" is incorrect; his achievements in improving working conditions and in economics were genuine. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:27, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::: Sorry, but there wasn't really a choice in '37. Baldwin advised the King to send for Chamberlain, and he did. The choice was Halifax vs Churchill a few years later. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:32, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::::: The debate took place within the Tory party. They chose the outstanding domestic politician of the first half of the 20th century although it would shortly become apparent that the expertise the PM would need was in foreign affairs. (But had they chosen the leading foreign affairs expert, history would have been disastrously different...) Modern historians are much less harsh on Chamberlain than their predecessors. If he had stood up to Germany in 1938, he would have given Hitler the opportunity to drag Britain into a war which she could not have won, under-equipped and without the support of France. The Czechoslovak economy and military was relatively strong but too small to resist the Wehrmacht. The real damage was done about 5 years earlier, when Baldwin refused to re-arm. Chamberlain's own policy as PM was the classic, "if you hope for peace, prepare for war" but that doesn't work against a madman. It's now generally understood that Chamberlain did ''not'' trust Hitler but felt he had no alternative in the Munich Conference; he certainly had no sympathy with the Nazis, unlike some more aristocratic Tories. It's also widely recognised that his very real achievements as Chancellor put Britain into a position in which rearmament from 1937 onwards was economically possible. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:53, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Ron Paul ==

For the benefit of non-US editors, please could someone explain who Ron Paul is. The page describes him as "the single most influential presidential candidate in the past decade". I must say that he's completely unknown in the UK and I don't see that he won many votes in Presidential elections.

The point is to have a benchmark so we know where to add names of the many politicians who've had significant outside careers: why is Ron Paul in the "influential" list and the Duke of Wellington in the "not influential" list? Or for that matter, Neville Chamberlain: he had one of the most influential ''peace-time'' careers of any politician in the UK in the 20th century. As Health Minister, he got the first Factory Act passed, a keystone of legislation on safety at work, and as Chancellor, he ensured that Britain had the economic strength and military spending it needed to fight Hitler. Churchill inspired the Spitfire pilots but Chamberlain got the Spitfires built. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:49, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Significant isn't the same thing as good ==

Mr Schlafly, as you give history lessons (are you a professional history teacher?) you surely understand that many significant politicians weren't good people. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:12, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:Regarding Heydrich and Lenin: you've now placed them in the category of people whose career outside politics needs discussion. They were both thoroughly evil people but they both had significant careers before going into politics and were both extremely significant (negatively) as politicians. When you say, "Significant politicians", do you mean, "Significant politicians whose policies Andy Schlafly approves of"? Please let me know because if you do, perhaps it would not be a good use of my time or that of other editors to attempt to assist you. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:21, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Trudeau, Levesque, Parizeau, Mulroney as "undeserving" ==

By what definition are these four men, who together and in opposition completely changed the political landscape of a country that happens to be our largest trading partner "undeserving"? [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 19:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I would consider them morally undeserving. Levesque and Parizeau were separatists. Mulroney was corrupt and Trudeau was a socialist. In terms of influence, I might say Levesque because he was the first PQ premier. Trudeau and Mulroney were long serving but did not really do that much to change the country. Parizeau was a failure.
:This article isn't about moral purity. Read the title of the article: "Politicians who had a real career." They were politicians. They were important politicians. They had careers before embarking in politics. Therefore, they deserve to be in the article. Your assertion that Trudeau and Mulroney didn't change the country is absurd. Trudeau, if he did nothing else, repatriated the constitution and gave the country the Charter of rights and Freedoms. Mulroney, if he did nothing else, opened the door for the a complete retooling of Canada's concept of a "social safety net." Parizeau might not have succeeded in bringing about Quebec independence, but he came very close, and Quebec-Canada relations have never been the same since 1995; moreover he was the financial brains behind the creation and expansion of "Quebec. Inc in the 1970s and 1980s. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 21:38, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: Headlines are concise out of necessity. Implicit in the headline for this entry is the word "influential", as has already been explained before on this talk page. Someone who merely "opened the door" doesn't count; doormen are not counted among the most influential people, unless they do something in addition to opening doors.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:42, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Pierre Trudeau wrote a new constitution for Canada. Writing a new constitution for a country is being a doorman? Look at Canada in 1983 when he left office, and look at Canada when Mulroney left office--do those countries look at all the same to you? Look at Quebec in 1976 before Levesque. Look at Quebec when Parizeau left office -- does that look at all like the same place? [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 21:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::::Honestly, Canada does look the same to me throughout that period: beautiful landscape, terrific people, but headed in the misguided [[liberal]] direction. It's a tragedy.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:44, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

== Confusion ==

Is there some special set of criteria here? Why are people like Margaret Thatcher being deleted while others like Lech Walesa are being moved to different sections? It's pretty clear that these two had significant careers before becoming politicians (Thatcher's science background was often referenced during her term as PM). I don't see why they shouldn't make the list, while Michele Bachmann, who has had no career outside politics at all, makes the top list. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 19:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I would suggest including an introductory paragraph at the top, to help clarify what exactly this is about. Certainly, Lech Walesa had a very clear and very real career, so why does he need "further discussion?" It is, I admit, an interesting idea to analyze the pre-politics careers of those that would be our leaders. But I'm not sure of the intentions of this essay nor its contents.--[[User:CamilleT|CamilleT]] 23:24, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::Thatcher did not have a real career outside of government. Majoring in chemistry is not a real career.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:36, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

::[[Homeschooling]] 5 kids and helping raise about two-dozen additional foster children, as [[Michele Bachmann]] did, is a real career.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:37, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

:: I don't consider homeschooling 5 kids and raising foster kids a career. Nothing against homeschooling, but anyone can do it (although its hard to do it well). Same with raising foster kids. In Canada, most of the foster parents are on welfare and take in kids because the money does not come off of their cheques. Do they have careers ? Bachmann has two law degrees and was a successful lawyer. That is not something everyone could do. That is what I would call a career--[[User:PeterNant|PeterNant]] 18:01, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::Lech Walesa may merit the top list. Good point. Perhaps a greater explanation of what his career and political influence were would help.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:40, 8 August 2011 (EDT)

I really am also very confused - I added the two-term Mayor of New York and the likely GOP Presidential nominee, yet they have "no clear influence in politics"? Sorry, but I don't understand at all - they are both very significant figures? [[User:JanW|JanW]] 23:46, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
:I am confused as to how Bachmann is considered to have a real career but not Obama? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:58, 8 August 2011 (EDT)
::I'm confused too. I accept that Chamberlain's later career was controversial but why on earth have (1) Harold MacMillan and (2) Alex Salmond been removed from the top list? (1) Decolonisation of Africa was a big ahievement and (2) like him or loath him, Salmond is probably the most effective politician in the UK today. Perhaps I could politely suggest that the contributions of certain editors are not being made with the benefit of a strong sense of history...? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:06, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Insight ==

Hi folks. I believe I have just had a fascinating conservative insight, based on the current form of this list. I present it here for your perusal and hope that it will provoke discussion. Noting that there are very few influential liberals in the first list, I conclude that

'''Nearly all influential liberals are professional politicians. In contrast, many influential conservatives hold "real" jobs prior to entering politics.'''

This appears to be particularly true among conservatives whose views align with those of the Tea Party. I believe this insight is well-supported by the data presented here, as soon as one has appropriately defined "influential" and "real job". --[[User:PhilS33|PhilS33]] 09:17, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:Superb insight!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:45, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::Indeed. "As soon as one has appropriately defined 'influential' and 'real job.'" It's all about how you choose to define your terms. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:47, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Not necessarily. "Influential" and ""real job" are hardly arcane or technical terms - they are commonly understood by most people. Now of course influence is not a binary quality, but one can certainly say that the more influential, the more likely to have had a real job (or vice versa) without getting bogged down in pedantic definitions.--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:04, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::It seems like this is almost a truism. Those who hold real jobs will gain an understanding of the value of money and the damage caused by over-regulation and high taxes. Thus, they will tend to become more conservative with time. Those who never hold real jobs will have little grasp of the value of a dollar or the harm of government overreach, and will thus tend towards liberalism. It's not unlike the difference between a child who is expected to attend to chores and a part-time job in order to earn spending money, as opposed to one who is spoiled and freely given money without responsibility. The first child will learn to be independent and self-sufficient, while the second will learn to run to mommy and daddy (or, in the case of liberals, the government) with outstretched hands whenever money runs short. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 11:43, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

PhilS's insight looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy as far as this site is concerned. Politicians that conservatives don't approve of aren't included in the list at the top part of the page (or get removed from it as soon as Mr Schlafly spots them). Winston Churchill and Reinhard Heydrich had careers as military officers of about the same length of time and were two of the most influential politicians of any country in the 20th century. Which implies that having a real job before entering politics won't make you the kind of politician decent people would approve of. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:35, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:The list is objective. Winston Churchill was a phenomenal writer and historian, and he had a significant political influence. That obviously warrants the top list. Reinhard Heydrich, in contrast, was an immoral underachiever outside of politics, and the horrific crimes of Nazism continued after Heydrich died at age 38.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:21, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::The list cannot be considered "objective" for a moment as you say, as long as former US Presidents, current Presidential primary candidates, sitting US Senators and Governors of States are not considered to have had "influence". It seems very strange that you would take such a view, I must say? --[[User:JanW|JanW]] 16:31, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

==Denis Healey==

Denis Healey introduced monetarism to the British economy in the late seventies. If that's not influential, what is?

As for the "obscure or otherwise inept Brits" section, A+ for childish humour, Z-- for political insight ~~Rafael
::Hey, I tried to argue that a guy who [[Pierre Trudeau|gave his country a new constitution]] was influential, and got shot down for no discernable reason. Good luck with this. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 11:45, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

:::The policy of every British Chancellor since 1976, except Gordon Brown, has essentially followed Healey's policies. He's much more highly regarded - including by conservatives - and has been much more influential in the long term than either Wilson or Callahan, the PMs in whose cabinets he served. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:57, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::::I've put DH back in the top list. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 19:02, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

== Mandela ==

Can Mandela be said to have had a 'real' career before politics? He was an aristocrat who ran away from an arranged marriage and worked for a few years as a solicitors clerk after being fired from manual employment. Hardly a career... [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 12:15, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
:I see your point. It's not like he played a sport or sang songs, you know, really important careers. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 12:21, 9 August 2011 (EDT)
::I'd say that being a popular singer is more significant than being fired from a factory and failing the law exams, especially given Mandela's privileged background. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]]
:::I agree. So unless anyone objects, I'll remove Mandela from the list in the next few days because, although he was an extraodinarily influential politician, he had no real other career. - JamesCA, August 15 2011
:::I've removed him now. - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 02:17, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

== Putin ==

"(I don't think the KGB is a career outside of government)", but Washington's military career, which was certainly a government job, counts? I too am confused. [[User:ACork|ACork]] 17:25, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

: Washington is listed for reasons more than his brilliant military career which, by the way, was not a government job like the KGB.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:10, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

::So, 'working for The Government' can mean different things when applied to different people. Sounds very like Orwell's (that good working class Conservative) Newspeak. As you are moving the goalposts depending whether the person fits your agenda or not I'll leave you to it. By the way, both Churchill and Thatcher were Atheists. Godspeed [[User:ACork|ACork]] 12:35, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

:::A mostly volunteer army is hardly "the government" in the same sense that career KGB functionaries are. And, as I said, Washington had a distinguished career in land development.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:59, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== "What is a beach-master"? ==

Surprised a history teacher doesn't know this. It's a military officer in charge of a section of beach during an amphibious invasion. He's the guy who's in charge of making sure everything/everybody that lands on his section of the beach goes where it's supposed to and is responsible for keeping things running in a smooth and unobstructed manner. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 22:26, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

: OK, that seems clear enough, thanks ... but if it isn't more what you describe, then I don't think it qualifies as a significant career for the purposes of this list.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
::Well, I heard a radio interview with Healey in which he spoke extensively and movingly about Anzio. If you don't think it counts as significant work experience, I really pity you. Please have more respect for the armed forces. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:28, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

== Ike ==

What part of his career is there to discuss? He was an officer from more or less the midway point of WWI and kept getting promoted until he was made "Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces in Europe" culminating in the organisation and leading of D Day. He then became NATO supreme commander in Europe from 1951 until he ran for president in 1954. And that's just the highlights! I understand that Ike is not popular on this site, but lets not pretend that he didn't have a significant pre politics career. The very reason he won two landslide elections was because of his pre-politics career. Unless someone can give a coherent argument to the contrary, I will move him up to the top section. (And I don't think it can be argued he didn't have influence - his role in ending the Korean war, his moderating the demands of the Taft led senate all point to a significant influence, for good or bad). --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 03:03, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:Without objection; it is so moved. --[[User:DamianJohn|DamianJohn]] 15:07, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

== RE: John Major ==

John Major was downgraded, and described as inept and obscure. I'd like to make a couple of points. John Major left school at 16, with only 3 O-levels. But he studied hard by correspondence course, and taught himself three more: 'British Constitution,' 'Economics,' 'Mathematics.' He helped with his father's small, failing business, and worked as a clerk. His father died, and that year, he joined the Young Conservatives, got a job with the London Electricity Board (and studied banking by correspondence while working a full time job). He became a banker with Standard Chartered Bank and became a senior executive who traveled across Africa for them. He famously began making speeches about economic conservative principles, standing on a box, at his local market, and became a Conservative Member of Parliament. He went on to be Chancellor of the Exchequer under Thatcher, and succeeded her as Prime Minister.

To me, somebody who didn't do very well at school, but worked very hard to better himself, and became a senior banking executive (remember that getting into such jobs without Oxford/Cambridge education or family connections is very difficult), then became the director of economic policy under THATCHER and then went onto be Prime Minister is a veritable conservative legend, who indeed had a solid career. He could, certainly, have earned more as a banking executive than as a politician.

Now, let's talk about influence. If directing economic policy under Thatcher isn't influence enough, lets talk about other things. He famously convinced George Bush Sr to support no fly zones in the Gulf War. If convincing the American President of something isn't influence, what is? In 1992, with Major as Leader, the conservative party gained more votes than any other British political party has ever gained in an election. More than Thatcher or Churchill ever gained! Major's Back to Basics campaign emphasized the family values which sadly were absent from the last few years of Thatcher's administration. John major did as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else: And lets remember, that's one of the most successful cases of defeating terrorism ever. [[User:AlycaZ|AlycaZ]] 23:32, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

: You state your arguments very well. Thanks - I learned from your comments. But what is John Major's '''''influence'''''? It seems Major didn't recognize the importance of social issues ... and perhaps his somewhat traditional career was part of the problem. Most on the list have unique careers that enable them to bring something insightful to politics.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 10 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Did you not read the last paragraph or something, Andy? The editor gave a nice synopsis on Major's influence, including his recognition of social issues." '''If directing economic policy under Thatcher isn't influence enough''', lets talk about other things. He famously convinced George Bush Sr to support no fly zones in the Gulf War. '''If convincing the American President of something isn't influence, what is'''? In 1992, with Major as Leader, '''the conservative party gained more votes than any other British political party has ever gained in an election.''' More than Thatcher or Churchill ever gained! Major's Back to Basics campaign '''emphasized the family values which sadly were absent from the last few years of Thatcher's administration'''. John major did '''as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else''': And lets remember, that's one of the most successful cases of defeating terrorism ever. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 09:19, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::'solve the Northern Ireland problems'? I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure NI's problems are far from solved. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:41, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::1.He didn't say he "solved" them, he said he ''' did as much to solve (them) as anybody else.''' There's a difference. 2. While Northern Ireland is hardly "solved," credit where credit is due: it's much more peaceful there now than it was for a long, long time. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 10:45, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Well quite. That's rather weak praise, don't you think? He contributed 'as much as anyone' - not the most, just 'as much as' others, to the improving - not the solving - of a problem. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 10:53, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I have no opinion on Major one way or the other. I'm just taken aback at the fundamentally poor basic reading comprehension displayed in this thread. [[User:JohnMcL|JohnMcL]] 11:03, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I certainly support the claim that he "did as much to solve the Northern Ireland problems as anybody else". Bliar tends to get the credit for the Good Friday Agreement but much of the hard work was done by John Major and was completed by the excellent Mo Mowlam (whose success in N.Ireland made Bliar insanely jealous of her...) [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:27, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::::: I don't doubt that John Major had some influence, but nothing cited above rises to the level of political influence of the others on the top list. And, alas, his tenure in power seemed to end in failure, with very little lasting influence '''''even in Britain'''''. Unfortunately, long-term failure can happen when one ignores the social issues and instead pretends that foreign and economic policies are all that matter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:40, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

His party's collapse in the elections of 1997 was down to the "sleaze factor": too many of his party had their hand in the till. To say his achievements (the extensive - and radical even by Margaret Thatcher's standards - privatisation of nationalised businesses, taking sterling out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, the Maastricht treaty, extensive reform of the civil service, laying the groundwork for the Good Friday Agreement etc) are of very little lasting influence seems like a hurried comment and not a considered and researched one[[User:Rafael|Rafael]]
:Regarding the USA politicians in the top list, you've got one (Ron Johnson) whose major achievement so far is rejecting some judicial nominees (did he make constructive suggestions for alternatives?), one (Rick Scott) described as an innovative local government official and one (Michele Bachmann) who sounds like a wannabe President (sounds a bit like B.H.O. ...?) Set against these, you have to forgive Brits who think that John Major had some significant achievements, especially in Northern Ireland. And (thanks for reminding us, Rafael), almost the whole country with the exception of Bliar is delighted he got us out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:27, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

::I think a lot of good points have been made, but I'd like to present a new argument: John Major cemented conservatism in Britain. Thatcher's administration was a whirlwind of reform and change with many privatisations. While Thatcher was indeed brilliant, she became an incredibly divisive figure and, had things continued (remember the poll tax riots), Thatcher as leader in 1992 may well have seriously lost the election: and an incoming Labour government could well have renationalised (at least some) industries - either way, it would be a point for debate. John Major was a much less divisive figure. By taking over as Prime Minister, a line was drawn under the Thatcher era, and it was his role to cement it. Thatcher continuing as Prime Minister could certainly have led to a Labour majority reversing some or all of her work. Major's 5 years as a 'steady' Prime Minister, without the huge upheaval and reform cemented the idea that no government would nationalise industries. In fact, Labour could only win the 1997 election by promising that. This was something of a rebirth for the Conservative Party, and let's not forget that William Hague was first a minister under him, and David Cameron personally worked with him. He also promoted Iain Duncan Smith and Ken Clarke - he was certainly influential in shaping the influential British conservatives of today. So I think his influence can be summed up as follows:

# Significant and successful work towards peace in Northern Ireland.
# Fighting tooth-and-nail for Britain's right to remain a member of the European Union, but not join the Euro. Joining the Euro, as Blair later wanted, would have ruined the country.
# Played a very important role in the fact that Britain's industries are now privately owned, not nationally owned. If Thatcher had continued until she lost, we may have seen a reversal of this.
# Played a very important part in shaping the Conservative 'line up' today.
# Directed Thatcher's economic policy for over a year.

In the late 80s, the Conservative party was considered the 'nasty party' and a swing of a few percent in an election would've seen Labour get back in. It was only by having a mild-mannered, less divisive figure that Thatcherism became cemented. "We're all Thatcherites now," as Peter Mandelson said. From a conservative point of view, having influenced Thatcher's policies AND influenced the line up of modern conservative figures, he is a big hitter. I think that if the UK was in the Euro, everybody would be blaming John Major right now. But he made the right decision, and fought for it, and that is affecting the UK's GDP recovery to this day. [[User:AlycaZ|AlycaZ]] 21:34, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

: Thanks for the interesting analysis. John Major apparently had some significance, but part of this is speculative ("If Thatcher had continued until she lost ...") and several of the policies probably would have continued with or without Major (e.g., keeping the pound out of the Euro). So I doubt that Major's marginal significance rises to the level of the other listed politicians.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:40, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:: Andy, please read and pay attention to what other British editors have written. Thatcher would undoubtedly have lost an election in 1992, giving us Neil Kinnock for Prime Minister (aargh!!), John Smith as Chancellor who would have increased taxes and no-one with the guts to take Britain out of the ERM. (Remember that even now, Bliar, who was ''the'' rising star in 1992, is even now saying that Britain should have joined and should now join the Euro - what an idiot.) [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 10:43, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

::: I appreciate your insights and have learned from them. That said, John Major was a "status quo" type of politician who quickly departed from political discourse as soon as he was voted out of office. There is not much lasting influence there.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:22, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Mustafa Kemal ==

I regards to Mustafa Kemal I personally think that his longstanding service record in the Turkish forces and his driving force in the Young Turks movement makes him a certain candidate for a politician who had a real career. No peanut farming or so-called organizing for him. A proud member of his country's armed forces.
--[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 23:47, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

: You may be right. Honestly, I don't know enough about Kemal's career to say. Was his military career distinguished?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:57, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

I am aware that he won twenty four medals throughout his career. Primarily awarded for distinguished service during the First World War. As well as one awarded during the war of independence. His military command record is a mixed bag i believe. Though by all accounts he seems to have been a good commander and a dutiful soldier. --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:03, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

: : Also I for his significance in history it should be his role in creating modern Turkey and making ties with the West. Its a nation that until recently had resisted the allure of Islamic extremism. --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:06, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

::: Thanks for the history - please add him to the top list with your explanations. Please note, however, that I'm reluctant to open the door to every politician who served in the military. That would be a very long list indeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:20, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

:::: I have added him to the top list with explanation and note that he created a ''democratic'' Turkish state. Would abolishing the monarchy also qualify? --[[User:TaylorH|TaylorH]] 00:27, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::Kemalist Turkey wasn't a democratic nation. Kemalist Turkey was a single-party state that didn't tolerate anyone a embracing non-Turkish identity (Armenians, Greeks, and Kurds) or wishing to practice their religion and traditions without government interference. Thousands of Armenians and Greeks were killed or deported. Kemalist Turkey also embraced a sort of nationalistic socialism and statism. Kemalist Turkey also had close ties with the Soviets prior to WW2. I'm a fan of the Turkish people and their rich culture, but I'm not a fan of their government's history. --[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] 17:14, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Revision ==

I've done some revision of the essay in line with discussion on this Talk Page. My changes aren't very dramatic. E.g. I've left Jim Bunning in the top list even though he's practically unknown outside the USA, I've reluctantly left Chamberlain in the second list because I accept that his major achievements in domestic policy are eclipsed by his ambiguous and often misunderstood record in foreign policy, and I've left Heydrich in the third list because even though he fits the criteria of a significant career before politics and major "achievements" (of a kind) in politics, he was utterly awful and revolting. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 15:58, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

== Michele Bachmann ==

For the benefit of non-Americans to whom she's totally unknown, please could someone (Andy Schlafly?) explain what Michele Bachmann has achieved in politics that places her on a par with Churchill, Reagan or Ataturk? [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:05, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

: This is a list of "Politicians Who Had a Real Career." [[Michele Bachmann]] certainly had a real career, and she's influential in the current presidential election cycle as well as Congress. It's interesting that news outside the U.S. seem to be ignoring her. Typically the [[lamestream media]] will either ignore a real [[conservative]] or try to demonize that person. In the U.S., the media are doing the latter.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:37, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:: You've put her in the list of "significant politicians". Please tell us what's so significant about her. (Obama was influential in the previous presidential election cycle!) I don't think media outside the USA are ignoring her; in the UK, they tend not to pay much attention to inexperienced politicians who are wannabe Presidents. Obama didn't get much attention here until around February 2008. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:54, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

:::This list is not about titles, or who won or lost a particular election. It's about '''''influence'''''. Obama is simply trying to be reelected. That's not influence. Bachmann, in contrast, is framing the debate and moving the entire process to the more [[conservative]] side, as illustrated as recently as Thursday night when she essentially eliminated media-favorite [[Tim Pawlenty]] from contention with her response to his criticism.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:00, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Also, Michelle Bachmann is one of the leading figures of the [[Tea Party]]. You wouldn't argue that the tea party isn't influential, would you? Well Bachmann has been one of the main reasons why it has stayed at the front of the political scene.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 19:28, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::OK, understood. If influence in shaping the debate is the main factor in determining influence, I would move at least the following from List 2 to List 1:
Bush (shaped debate on how to deal with international terrorism)
Chamberlain (how can economic growth contribute to achieving peace or preparing for war)
Eisenhower (how to deal with communist expansionism)
Healey (how to achieve long-term economic stability by control of the money supply)
Kemp (how to drive prosperity by cutting taxes)
Lévesque (how far should distinct language groups have autonomy)
Major (how to achieve peace in a situation of civil strife by consensus)
Macmillan (how to decolonise empire)
Rice (as Bush Jr)
Salmond (how far should small, economically successful nations have independence)
Trudeau (how far should independent constitutions be seen as a sign of national maturity).
All these names were people of considerable experience of life and work outside politics and brought fresh ideas to framing debates of the highest importance (which is your criterion for putting Bachmann in List 1). I'll leave this posting here for a couple of hours before moving them all to List 1 in case of any reasoned objections. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 10:37, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

: I do object to equating the minor influence of the persons you list with the major influence of those in the first category. Virtually none of the people you list is cited today by many speakers or writers for having any political influence. Contrast that with Reagan, who is still frequently mentioned for his influence.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:42, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::Andy, Reagan isn't the issue. The issue is why the likes of Michele Bachmann, Jim Bunning, Jimmie Davis, Rand Paul and Ron Paul are in the top list. They simply don't stand comparison with Reagan, Walesa, Ataturk, Wellington or many of the names I mentioned above. Or is your list of 'Significant '''conservative''' [i.e. conservative in the sense used in the USA] politicians'? Rather than politicians in general. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 14:44, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::You still seem to be missing the point. All of the people you are labeling as insignificant (with the exception of maybe Jim Bunning and Jimmie Davis) are currently shaping the face of politics today. Ron Paul has made the idea of small government conservativism, which was considered out of the question a few years ago, one of the most popular causes today. Bachmann and Rand Paul are leading the tea party movement, which is arguably the most powerful shaping force in American politics today. I notice you didn't answer my question above; you wouldn't call the tea party non influential, would you?--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 16:25, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::I have no idea if the Tea Party is or will be influential. Better to wait until after the next General Election before you decide, perhaps? And in the long term, better to wait 10 years? John Major's standing has been steading revised upwards in the 14 years since he left office. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:37, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::I really hope you're joking. Did you pay attention to the 2010 midterm elections? The debt ceiling debate? The tea party has already profoundly shaped American politics, and this is incredibly likely to continue as American's grow more and more frustrated with Obama's policies.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 16:58, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::So shall we wait and see whether the Tea Party (and Michele Bachmann) is a long-term influence or a short-term blip? I'm really amazed by how much Americans want their senior national politicians to have no significant experience of learning how to negotiate in Washington in order to get their policies accepted, and by how quickly momentum builds up behind such complete unknowns - like Obama and now Bachmann. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:12, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Alright, clearly we're not getting anywhere here. I personally believe the Tea Party has already proven itself to be incredibly influential, and the quickness of that is probably largely due to its grassroots nature. But I think we need some input from other editors here clearly.--[[User:MorrisF|MorrisF]] 17:23, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Politics is about the future, not the past, and Bachmann is hardly a "complete unknown[]." Bachmann's views and voting record have been well-known for years.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:22, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Four of them. [[User:MrMorganH|MrMorganH]] 20:46, 14 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'll buy you a pint of the Schlafly family's finest if President Bachmann doesn't find it as difficult to negotiate with stroppy Democrats as Obama does with stroppy Republicans. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:08, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:::::::::I appreciate your wit! But the reality is that a principled conservative can get good laws passed by Democratic Congresses better than [[RINO]]s can, as Reagan illustrated. Moreover, Bachmann's coattails could bring in a conservative Congress. We'll see. But regardless, Bachmann's influence is substantial already.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:45, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Obamacare? ==

Given the radicalism of [[Obamacare]], surely someone must have exerted considerable political influence to get it passed. If not Obama, then who? --[[User:MarioD|MarioD]] 19:52, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:The liberal media. [[User:Jcw|Jcw]] 19:56, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

:"Obamacare" -- a named that some liberals complain about -- was surely not Obama's idea, and he certainly did not draft it. There are other liberals in government and the media.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:23, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Michelle Bachmann the only one who has her jobs listed in a footnote as opposed to in the body of the article? ==

Is there something special about Bachmann's legal career that warrants it being relegated to a footnote? She WAS a practicing lawyer, right? [[User:MrMorganH|MrMorganH]] 15:49, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

: I'm sure, like most people, Bachmann has worked in several various jobs over a period of several decades. Those other jobs are not the "career" that earns her the top category.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:45, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

:: She was a tax attorney for the IRS for 5 years. I think that is considered a career and not some "various job". Also Michele Bachmann prides herself as being a former tax attorney when she's interviewed. So it needs to be stated and not footnoted (ie shuffled to the backbench), I don't think it will delineate from her years of being a mother to many foster children. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 00:04, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

== Suggestion for no-consensus category ==

Perhaps it would be a good idea to add a list which includes those who we have not reached a consensus about? With a note as to whether the disagreement is with regards to influence, or whether they had a real career, (or both). Suggestions for the list that I've noticed so far: Barack Obama (influence), Michele Bachmann (influence and career). And then remove these from the other lists until/if a consensus is reached. I have noticed the 'needs more discussion' section, but the no-consensus section would be only for those where a (lengthy) discussion is ongoing, and it seems unlikely that a consensus will be reached in the near future. (In contrast to Nelson Mandela, which there appears to be a consensus that he had no real other career, and only after a short discussion.) - JamesCA, August 15 2011

:Thanks for the suggestion, but objective truth is not defined by consensus. Bachmann's influence and career can hardly be doubted, and just because some may not like giving her full credit that would not justify demoting her.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:42, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

== Jimmie Davis ==

...appears in two lists. Someone who has heard of him should decide whether or not he was (is?) significant. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:31, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

: Great point. He should be removed from the top list. I'll do so now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:31, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

== Thatcher ==

Andy, Maggie Thatcher's career before politics was more substantial than you suggest. She worked for 6 years as an industrial chemist in the food industry, developing emulsifiers for ice cream (think of that each time you dip into the freezer section of the supermarket - she had a pretty big influence in the food industry, let alone politics!) She then worked for 6 years as a barrister before becoming an MP in the 1959 general election. I'm going to restore her to the top list. If you don't agree, please give a reasoned argument. You can hardly suggest she wasn't significant! [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:23, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

:More is required than that; others on the list had far more significant careers.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

:: You'd better delete Churchill from the top list then. He was a cavalry officer for only 6 years before retiring from the army and entering politics. His career as an writer only began properly long after he began his career in politics; by the time he wrote his first well-known books, ''My Early Life'' and ''Marlborough'', he had already been Home Secretary, First Lord of the Admiralty, Minister of War and Chancellor of the Exchequer (note to yankees: that's like being in charge of homeland security, the navy, the army and the treasury). [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 16:57, 16 August 2011 (EDT)

== M.A. Jinnah ==

"Jinnah's influence needs more explanation"???!!! Please read what I wrote: "Successful lawyer; later one of the three main leaders of the Indian independence movement, with Gandhi and Nehru, and founder of Pakistan." What can I say? Regarding his career, he was a successful lawyer for 31 years before becoming a member of the legislature. He has been universally recognised in his lifetime and ever since as the leading muslim in the movement for Indian independence (something that affects a fifth of the world's population!) The founding of Pakistan, in which he was the driving force, has had incalculable consequences for the history of the world post-WW2. Well, I'll leave this a little to see if anyone can provide a counter-argument but I certainly can't think of a reason for not putting him in the top list. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:40, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

: I don't reject it, but more explanation is needed in the entry. I'm not aware that his contribution to the independence of India was on par with Gandhi or politicians in England.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (EDT)
::I've added more explanation without making the explanation excessively long. I should point out (again) that the contributions of some of the American politicians in the top list are less-than-obvious to someone from outside the USA. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 17:06, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Citation to Jinnah's career in law added as requested by Andy. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:53, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

== Churchill ==

SeanS: no-one responded to what I said about Churchill's career before politics (see under Thatcher, above). I'll leave it a bit (it's bedtime here) and have a look at what others say tomorrow. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:56, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
:No-one has responded to my comment above for 24 hours so I've moved Churchill (again) to the list of people whose careers before politics need further consideration. If Thatcher's career before politics wasn't substantial enough to merit being in the top list, Churchill's certainly wasn't. [[User:KhalidM|KhalidM]] 18:50, 17 August 2011 (EDT)

Mark Steyn

2011-08-19T19:03:28Z

Austenbosten: Added Steyn's contributions to EIB and his new book After America.

[[Image:Mark.jpg|thumb|right|Mark Steyn]]
'''Mark Steyn''' (born 1959) is a [[conservative]] [[Canada|Canadian]] [[Journalism|journalist]], columnist, [[Motion picture|film]] and [[music]] critic. His 2006 [[book]], [[America Alone]], was a [[New York Times]] [[Bestseller]] and was endorsed by [[United States Senate|senator]] [[Joe Lieberman]]. His columns often appear in the [[Chicago Sun-Times]], [[Jerusalem Post]], [[Macleans]], [[National Review]], The [[New Criterion]], The [[New York Sun]], The [[Washington Times]], The [[Orange County Register]] and [[Western Standard]]. On August 2011, Mark Steyn released his much anticipated book "After America: Get Ready for Armageddon" and within weeks reached #6 on the New York Times Bestseller list<REF>[http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2011-08-28/combined-print-and-e-book-nonfiction/list.html NYT Best Seller List for August 2011]</REF> and #26 on the Amazon Bestsellers rank<REF>[http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-books-Amazon/zgbs/books/ref=pd_dp_ts_b_1#2 After Amazon Bestsellers Rank as of 19 August 2011]</REF>. Mark Steyn also regularly fills-in as a guest host on the [[Rush Limbaugh]] Show.

==Attempts to censor his work==

Steyn has been [[ Summons|summoned]] to appear before two Canadian [[Judiciary|judicial]] panels on charges linked to his book “America Alone.” [http://elliotlakenews.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/canadas-thought-police/]

==External Links==
[http://www.steynonline.com/ Steyn Online]
{{DEFAULTSORT: Steyn, Mark}}
[[category:Journalists]]
[[category:Authors]]

Rush Limbaugh

2011-08-19T18:43:36Z

Austenbosten: /* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon */

[[Image:RushLimbaugh 1.jpg|right|200px]]
'''Rush Limbaugh''' (born January 12, 1951) is an extremely popular American [[conservative]] radio talk show host and author. Limbaugh has risen to the top of the ratings charts as an intensely conservative voice in a talk radio media environment dominated by conservatives. In his sharp criticisms of the [[Obama Administration]] Limbaugh has been characterized as one of the ''de facto'' leaders of the opposition. Historians compare his role to Walter Winchell, a radio commentator of the 1930s-1950s era. He has been ranked by ''The Daily Telegraph'', a popular UK newspaper, as the second most influential conservative.<ref>[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6990965/The-most-influential-US-conservatives-20-1.html The most influential US conservatives]</ref>

== Early Years ==
Rush Hudson Limbaugh III was born in 1951 in Cape Girardeau, [[Missouri]]. At age 16, he chose to explore his passion for broadcasting by working as a [[disc jockey]], hosting a radio show in his hometown. After four years, he left for [[Pittsburgh]] to work for the former [[ABC News|ABC]] owned and operated ''KQV''. Following his work as a disc jockey, Rush briefly left broadcasting for [[business]], joining the [[Kansas City Royals]] as Director of Group Sales, and then Director of Sales and Special Events. In 1983, he re-entered radio as a political commentator for ''KMBZ'' in [[Kansas City]]. A year later, in 1984, Rush dropped out of [[college]] after his freshman year to pursue work full-time as a disk jockey, when ''KFBK'' in [[Sacramento]], [[California]] hired him to host a talk show that reveled in controversy about conservative politics. Limbaugh tripled the program's ratings in four years. From there, in 1988 he went on to [[New York]] where the record-breaking national show, the ''EIB Network'', was born.

On August 1, 1988, Rush launched his phenomenally successful radio broadcast into national syndication, with 56 radio stations. More than 20 years later the show is heard on nearly 600 stations by up to 20 million people each week and is the highest-rated national radio talk show in America. Rush was awarded the "Syndicated Radio Personality" of the year by the [[National Association of Broadcasters]] in 1992, 1995, 2000, and 2005. He was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 1993 and National Association of Broadcasters Hall of Fame in 1998. Rush Limbaugh has been labeled as the savior of AM radio by broadcast industry leaders, sometimes called the "Doctor of Democracy."<ref name=doctor>[http://www.twoifbytea.com/doctor.php Rush Limbaugh, the "Doctor of Democracy"], [[Two If By Tea|TwoIfByTea.com]].</ref>

== Radio ==
Limbaugh hosts a radio show famed for its incisive criticism of the follies of liberalism. He is often at odds with liberal activists, such as [[Al Franken]], who wrote a book entitled ''"Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot". Limbaugh habitually refers to [[feminists]] who support [[abortion]] as ''feminazis'' and to his own self as having "talent on loan from God". Sensitive about his own schooling, he ridicules the college educated as the "Arts & Croissant Crowd."

Limbaugh's conservative talk show is nationally syndicated and averages over 16-20 million listeners weekly, making him the #1 radio talk show host in America.
<ref>[http://www.talkers.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=34 The Top Talk Radio Audiences] Talkers magazine online</ref> In July 2008, Rush announced "he has renewed his contract with Premiere Radio Networks and Clear Channel Radio, continuing syndication of his show 'many years into the future.'" <ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27326 Rush Renews Contract], ''[[Human Events]]'', July, 2, 2008</ref>

=== Audience ===
Limbaugh's fans enjoy his bluster and bombast, but behind it there is a substantive defense of a coherent political philosophy. He makes politics engaging and entertaining, producing an audience more eager to seek out other sources of information. Limbaugh "dittoheads" consume more print news than do non-listeners. Like Fox News viewers, Limbaugh fans are more likely to tune in to presidential debates. Far from making people cynical or indifferent toward public affairs, Limbaugh reinforces his audience's disposition to participate in the political process.<ref>Jamieson and Cappella (2008) </ref>

Conservative Republicans are in his audience, but educational attainment, family income, and race do not predict who listens. Listening to Limbaugh is significantly correlated with public affairs information. He is not merely an entertainer and people who listen to him regularly are very well informed on public affairs. However, his radio audience is smaller than the TV audiences of conservative commentators [[Bill O'Reilly]] and [[Sean Hannity]].<ref> Stephen Earl Bennett, " Who Listens to Rush Limbaugh's Radio Program and the Relationship Between Listening to Limbaugh and Knowledge of Public Affairs, 1994-2006," ''Journal of Radio & Audio Media,'' May 2009, Vol. 16 Issue 1, p66-82, in [[EBSCO]]</ref>

=== Poking fun at Obama liberals ===
Newsweek editor Evan Thomas said on MSNBC's "Hardball" that Obama was "sort of God."

Asking rhetorically what [[God]] has in common with Obama, Limbaugh said, "Neither has a birth certificate." <ref>[http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100717 Rush Limbaugh pummels Obama on birth certificate] WND, June 10, 2009</ref> He went on to say "God does not think he's Obama," and "Liberals love Obama." Limbaugh explained more differences, "Another difference is that God only demands to be worshiped once a week," and "God asks for only 10 percent of your money", and "God gives you freedom to live your life as you choose."

=== Obama to Fail ===
Limbaugh made national headlines when he was asked to write 400 words for a newspaper column about Obama's plans. He said he didn't need 400 words, he needed just four: "I hope he fails." He was immediately attacked by the Obama White House and liberal pundits as an unpatriotic obstructionist. Limbaugh expounded his view in the show's [http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011609/content/01125113.guest.html transcript]; if Obama is for socialist policies and against capitalist policies, of course Limbaugh could not support those policies, and hoped he would fail. <ref>[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011609/content/01125113.guest.html Limbaugh radio show transcript.]</ref>

Limbaugh addressed [[CPAC]] and further discussed his stance that generated so much attention. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/01/limbaugh-leader-obama-chief-staff-calls-talk-host-barrier-progress/ Limbaugh the Leader? Obama Chief of Staff] Fox News, March 01, 2009</ref> {{cquote| ''"Did the Democrats want the war in Iraq to fail? Well, they certainly did. And they not only wanted the war in Iraq to fail, they proclaimed it a failure. ... The last thing they wanted was to win. They hoped George Bush failed. So where is it -- what is so strange about being honest and saying, I want Barack Obama to fail if his mission is to restructure and reform this country so that capitalism and individual liberty are not its foundation? Why would I want that to succeed?"'' }}

Republican National Chairman Michael Steele called Limbaugh an "entertainer" whose comments were "incendiary" and "ugly," and Limbaugh counterattacked Steele's fitness to run the party. A Gallup poll in May 2009 on who was the main voice of the GOP found Limbaugh leading the pack at 13%, with Steele trailing at 1%.

== Other Media Work ==
The Limbaugh Letter is a monthly publication that contains conservative articles and humor in Rush's style.

Limbaugh is involved in the conservative satire show "The 1/2 Hour News Hour" show on the [[Fox News Channel]]. <ref>
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/16/AR2007021602098.html Fox News Channel's '1/2 Hour News Hour': Right Funny, in Spots] washingtonpost.com</ref>

Rush occasionally writes op-ed pieces for the [[Wall Street Journal]].

== Politics ==
Limbaugh endorsed [[Mitt Romney]] for the [[2008 Presidential Election]]. <ref>[http://www.cnsnews.com/ThisHour.asp#Limbaugh%20Endorses%20Romney Limbaugh Endorses Romney], [[Melanie Hunter]], ''[[CNSNews]]'', February 05, 2008</ref> He was often critical of [[John McCain]] during the Republican primaries, but supported him in the general election.

Limbaugh has warned against false prophets, telling his audience in 1996 that, "You are being manipulated in a way that I find very bothersome." "Pat Buchanan is not a conservative. He's a populist."<ref>See [http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/23/us/politics-on-the-air-radio-talk-show-host-fears-for-true-conservatism-s-fate.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fL%2fLimbaugh%2c%20Rush Robin Toner, "Radio Talk Show Host Fears For True Conservatism's Fate," ''New York Times'' Feb. 23, 1996]</ref>.

=== The Harry Reid Letter ===
On October 2, 2007, Senate Majority Leader [[Harry Reid]] wrote a letter to Mark P. Mays, President and CEO of Clear Channel Communications, who is Limbaugh's chief patron. In it Senator Reid essentially demanded that Mays order Limbaugh to apologize for remarks he made concerning "phony soldiers."<ref name=ReidText>Reid, Harry, ''et al.'' "[http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=284699 Letter to Mark P. Mays of Clear Channel Communications]." [http://reid.senate.gov/ Electronic Office of US Senator Harry Reid], October 2, 2007. Retrieved October 19, 2007.</ref> A ''phony soldier'' is someone who is not a soldier at all but is pretending to be one, especially in a public forum. Such activity is unlawful, and the faker whose activity prompted Limbaugh's attacks has since been convicted and punished.<ref name=PhonySoldier>Limbaugh, Rush. "[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092807/content/01125106.guest.html The Anatomy of a Smear: 'Phony Soldiers' Is a Phony Story]." ''[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Rush Limbaugh Official Site]'', accessed December 25, 2007.</ref> This letter was co-signed by nearly all Democratic senators. In a speech in Philadelphia on October 11th, Limbaugh announced plans to sell the original letter on eBay in a charity auction. The proceeds went to the Marine Corps Law Enforcement Foundation. The letter sold for $2.1 million and Limbaugh matched the winning amount with a total of $4.2 million being donated. <ref>http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/420889/harry_reidrush_limbaugh_letter_nets.html</ref>

=== Victim of a Democratic prosecutor's witchhunt ===
On October 6, 2003 Limbaugh told his audience he was addicted to OxyContin and other painkillers citing a failed back surgery as the cause of his pain and subsequent dependence. <ref>The Rush Limbaugh Show, October 6, 2007.</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/10/10/rush.limbaugh/ "Limbaugh admits addiction to pain medication"</ref> Limbaugh underwent treatment for his addiction, and charges against him for alleged "doctor shopping" to procure prescription medications were dropped<ref>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/28/national/main1561324.shtml</ref> after Democratic prosecutors illegally seized private medical records<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/hottopics/Rush_Limbaugh.shtml </ref> in a blatant misuse of the criminal justice system to discredit Limbaugh.

== Sports ==
Limbaugh is an avid sports fan, particularly football. He briefly held a position as a commentator on ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown pre-game show. He resigned from the show on October 2, 2006 after comments made regarding Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb received widespread criticism.

{{cquote|''' ''"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."'' '''}}

After McNabb's response, "It's sad that you've got to go to skin color. I thought we were through with that whole deal," significant pressure was put upon Limbaugh to resign. <ref>http://espn.go.com/gen/news/2003/1001/1628537.html</ref>

== Other Facts ==
The following is a list of other facts about Rush Limbaugh:<ref name=doctor/>
* Honorary Member of the [[Republican]] Freshman Class 1995 [[House of Representatives]].
* [[Time Magazine]]’s 100 Most Influential People in the world (2009).
* [[Forbes|Forbes Magazine]] 50 Most Powerful Celebrities in the United States, numerous years (#19 in 2010).
* [[Barbara Walters]]’ 10 Most Fascinating People (2008).
* The Giving Back Fund’s 10 Most Generous Celebrities for contributions to charities and individuals, such as the [[Marine Corps - Law Enforcement Foundation]].
* Raised 20 Million Dollars for the [[Leukemia]] and [[Lymphoma Society]] since 1989. Each year Rush hosts a Radiothon (one three-hour broadcast per year) during his program to raise funds for Leukemia and Lymphoma research.
* Author of ''The Limbaugh Letter'', the most widely read political newsletter in the country and two best-selling books, ''The Way Things Ought to Be'' (ISBN 067175145x) and ''See, I Told You So'' (ISBN 067187120X), which have sold over 8.9 million copies, including an American publishing record for ''See, I Told You So''.
* Guest Television appearances include ''[[Nightline]]'' with [[Ted Koppel]], ''Cross Fire'', ''[[Good Morning America]]'', ''[[CBS|CBS This Morning]]'', ''[[The Today Show]]'', ''The Phil Donahue Show'', ''[[The Late Show]]'' with [[David Letterman]], ''[[The Tonight Show]]'', ''[[This Week]]'' with [[David Brinkley]], ''[[Meet the Press]]'' with [[Tim Russert]], and [[The Drew Carey Show]]. Rush also starred as himself in the popular network sitcoms ''[[Family Guy]]'' and ''[[Hearts Afire]]''.
* Profiled on CBS's ''60 Minutes'', [[ABC]]'s ''20/20'' and in numerous publications including ''[[U.S. News and World Report]]'', ''[[Newsweek]]'', ''[[National Review]]'', ''[[Time Magazine]]'', ''[[New York Times|The New York Times Magazine]]'' and ''[[USA Weekend]]''.
* ''Miss America Pageant'' judge (2010).

== Quotes ==
* "You know why there's a Second Amendment? In case the government fails to follow the first one." - Rush Limbaugh, 17 Aug 1993

== The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon ==
Like Mark Levin and others, Rush Limbaugh holds a lexicon for many liberals and Democrats, although Rush's lexicon is less expansive as Mark Levin's

*[[Mainstream Media]] = Drive-by Media
*[[CNN]] = Communist News Network (was originally called the "Clinton News Network" during the Clinton administration.)
*[[Barack Obama]] = Barack "Mmm mmm mmm" Obama (This is in reference to the propagandist school song about Obama)
*[[Joe Biden]] = Joe Bite-Me
*[[Harry Reid]] = Dingy Harry
*[[Debbie Wasserman Schultz]] = Debbie Blabbermouth Schultz
*[[John Edwards]] = Breck girl
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Bela Pelosi
*Barbra Walters = Baba Wawa
*Chuck Todd = F Chuck Todd
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben Affliction
*Paul Begala = The Forehead
*[[Chuck Schumer]] = Chuck You Schumer

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==See Also==
*[[Previous Breaking News/Rush Limbaugh|Articles about '''Rush Limbaugh''' from previous "Breaking News"]]
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Rush Derangement Syndrome]]

==External Links==
*[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Official Rush Limbaugh website]
*[http://www.cspan.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-A-15919 Rush's 2009 Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) Speech], ''C-SPAN'', February 28, 2009
*[http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/rush-limbaugh/id406055530?mt=8#ls=1 The Rush Limbaugh Show], [[iPhone]] app, by Premiere Radio Networks, Inc.

==Further reading==
* Gordon, Scott. ''Rush Limbaugh: An Oral & Media Biography'' (2009). 258pp quotes and comments by his friends and enemies.
* Jamieson, Kathleen Hall, and Joseph N. Cappella. ''Echo Chamber: Rush Limbaugh and the Conservative Media Establishment'' (2008) balanced analysis by scholars; compares Limbaugh with Fox and ''Wall Street Journal'' [http://www.amazon.com/Echo-Chamber-Limbaugh-Conservative-Establishment/dp/0195398602/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261865854&sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]

{{DEFAULTSORT: Limbaugh, Rush}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Republican Party]]
[[Category:Conservative Commentators]]
[[Category:Obama Presidency]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

Essay:Politicians Who Had a Real Career

2011-08-19T05:22:29Z

Austenbosten: /* Significant politicians with a real former career */

==Significant politicians with a real former career==

This is a list of significant politicians who had a real career (outside of politics):

*[[Michele Bachmann]] - [[homeschooled]] her 5 children and also helped raise 23 foster children. Bachmann has also worked as a tax attorney for the IRS<ref>[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303812104576437830202611222.html?mod=rss_Politics_And_Policy]</ref> and runs small business with her husband Marcus <ref>[http://bachmann.house.gov/Biography].</ref>
*[[Jim Bunning]] - Hall of Fame Major League Baseball pitcher and visionary who stood against government spending
*[[Benjamin Franklin]] - printer, author, postmaster, inventor, and [[Founding Father]]
*[[Barry Goldwater]] - manager of family department store and an air force general before winning a stunning upset victory for the Republican nomination for president in 1964, moving the entire Party to the right.
*[[Mohammed Ali Jinnah]] - Successful lawyer for 31 years <ref>http://www.quaid.gov.pk</ref>before being elected to the Legislative Assembly; recognized throughout South Asia as one of the three main leaders of the Indian independence movement, with Gandhi and Nehru; and founder of Pakistan where he is known as Father of the Nation.<ref>http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/jinnah_mohammad_ali.shtml</ref>
*[[Mustafa Kemal Atatürk]] - Decorated army officer and political writer. First president of the Republic of [[Turkey]] and founder of the modern democratic Turkish state.
*[[Jack Kemp]] - star professional football player (quarterback) and architect of the Kemp-Roth tax cuts in the 1980s
*[[Rand Paul]] - physician (ophthalmologist) and now a major influence in the [[U.S. Senate]] for cutting spending
*[[Ron Paul]] - physician (obstetrician), perhaps the single most influential presidential candidate in the past decade
*[[Ronald Reagan]] - actor, president of the [[Screen Actors Guild]], and spokesman for [[General Electric]]; architect of the defeat of [[communism]]
*[[Lech Walesa]] - President of Poland 1990-95, Electrician and [[Labor union|Trade Union]] activist who became President of [[Poland]]. Solidarity strikes in 1980 led eventually to collapse of Warsaw Pact and end of communism in eastern Europe.
*[[George Washington]] - successful military general, land surveyor, <ref>[http://www.landsurveyor.us/learn_washington.htm George Washington as a Land Surveyor]</ref> and real estate investor
*[[Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington]] - General who defeated [[Napoleon]]. Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and leading conservative politician of second quarter of 19th century. Legislated for emancipation of Roman Catholics in Britain and Ireland.

== No clear influence in politics ==

*[[William Beveridge]] - Charity worker who was introduced to government by [[Winston Churchill]] and introduced the [[Welfare State]] to the [[United Kingdom]]
*[[Michael Bloomberg]] - two term Mayor of New York, controls the market for stock quote machines used primarily in Wall Street institutions
*[[Bill Bradley]] - Hall of Fame NBA Basketball player who opposed Reagan's first set of tax cuts<ref>http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Bill_Bradley_Tax_Reform.htm</ref> but sponsored of the Tax Reform Act of 1986, the second of the major Reagan tax cuts.
*[[Jim Bunning]] - Hall of Fame Major League Baseball pitcher and visionary who stood against government spending
*[[George W. Bush]] - 43rd President of the US, oil businessman, co-owner and managing general partner of the [[Texas Rangers]]. Cut taxes and placed two strong [[conservatives]] on the [[U.S. Supreme Court]].
*[[Maria Cantwell]] - software company executive (Real Networks, who make RealPlayer)
*[[Neville Chamberlain]] - Prime Minister of the UK, formerly accountant and businessman (metal trade). Major positive influence on UK domestic policy, especially strengthening economy, but lacked experience in foreign policy at a crucial time.
*Jimmie Davis - accomplished singer ("You Are My Sunshine") who served two non-consecutive terms as governor of [[Louisiana]]
*[[Stephane Dion]] Professor of Political Science at Université de Moncton and Université de Montreal.
*[[Clint Eastwood]] - actor, film director
*[[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] - military general, who was the leader of Allied European forces in the Second World War and Supreme Commander of Nato.
*[[Mike Enzi]] - accountant
*[[Bill Foster]] - physicist at the government-subsidized Fermilab
*[[Al Franken]] - US Senator for the State of Minnesota, formerly a comedian (''Saturday Night Live'')
*[[John Glenn]] - former US Senator for Ohio, chief author 1978 Nonproliferation Act, Chairman of Committee on Governmental Affairs 1987-1995, Marine Corps pilot, NASA astronaut
*[[Stephen Harper]] - Economist, head of National Citizens Coalition (Canada's main conservative think tank)
*[[Denis Healey]] - Long-serving UK Chancellor who laid the foundations of British prosperity in the 1980s and 1990s by introducing monetarism; formerly a soldier (he was [[beachmaster]] at [[Anzio]]).
*[[Herbert Hoover]] - 31st President of the USA, former geologist, mining engineer
*[[Rush Holt]] - assistant director of the government-subsidized Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory
*[[Chris Huhne]] - journalist, including roles as business editor of The ''Independent'' and The ''Independent on Sunday''
*[[Michael Ignatieff]] Professor at the Kennedy School of Government, author, television host.
*[[Glenda Jackson]] - Member of UK Parliament since 1992, double [[Oscar]]-winning actress who helped force out [[Tony Blair]]
*[[Ron Johnson]] - was CEO of PACUS, a plastics Mfg, before becoming [[U.S. Senator]] for [[Wisconsin]]; rejected [[Obama]] judicial nominees for his area soon after taking office
*[[Jack Kemp]] - star professional football player (quarterback) and architect of the Kemp-Roth tax cuts in the 1980s
*John Key - before becoming New Zealander Prime Minister, Key was a succesful businessman and broker for Merril Lynch.
*Steve Largent - National football star for the [[Seattle Seahawks]]
*René Lévesque - Journalist.
*[[John Major]] - Prime Minister of the UK, bank executive. Major contribution to peace in Northern Ireland and took UK out of disastrous European Exchange Rate Mechanism.
*[[Harold Macmillan]] - Prime Minister of the UK, previously a soldier and publisher. Ended the British Empire in Africa and strengthened the UK's nuclear defences.
*[[Brian Mulroney]] Prime Minister of Canada, Truck driver, lawyer, head of Iron Ore Corporation.
*[[Barack Obama]], one of 43 presidents of the United States; perhaps the least influential in a century. (See also below)
*[[Jacques Parizeau]] Economist.
*[[Condoleeza Rice]] - 66th US Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, professor and Provost at [[Stanford University]], served on the boards of several large corporations, senior fellow at the Institute of International Studies. Major influence on US foreign policy under George Bush Jr.
*[[Alex Salmond]] - First Minister of Scotland, economist and banker
*[[Arnold Schwarzenegger]] - Governor of California, professional bodybuilder based on steroid use, actor
*[[Rick Scott]] - former CEO of a major hospital network, now the innovative Governor of [[Florida]]
*[[Heath Shuler]] - former businessman and former National Football League quarterback
*[[Rick Snyder]] - President and COO of Gateway during the 1990s, later elected Governor of Michigan in 2010
*[[Pat Toomey]] - worked for ChemicalBank, opened Rookie's Restaurant & the former president for The Club for Growth; now a Senator for Pennsylvania.
*[[Pierre Trudeau]], Prime Minister of Canada, lawyer, professor at Université de Montréal. Repatriated Canada's constitution.
*[[Mitt Romney]] - former Governor of Massachussets, GOP Presidential candidate in 2008, frontrunner in 2012 GOP Presidential nominees, CEO of Bain & Company, an investment company
*[[Scott Walker]] - worked for IBM and the American Red Cross before politics; now conservative Governor of [[Wisconsin]].

== Careers outside of government that need further discussion ==

*[[Jimmy Carter]] - 39th President of the US, peanut farmer ... or was it mostly administrative work and local government positions?
*[[Dick Cheney]] - most of his life was government but he had a Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer position at Halliburton prior to VP.
*[[Winston Churchill]] - cavalry officer for 6 years; then a leading politician for 55 years, becoming Prime Minister of the [[United Kingdom]] and a renowned wartime leader while also being an accomplished historian
*[[Calvin Coolidge]] - law practice and state politics
*[[Reinhard Heydrich]] - previously a naval officer, arguably the very worst of the senior Nazis.
*[[Vladimir Ilyich Lenin]] - first dictator of the Soviet Union: came from a minor affluent Russian family and became a lawyer specializing in labor rights, though he never saw a case.
*[[John Jay]]-lawyer
*[[Barack Obama]] - President of the US, claimed to organize church community groups, while not attending church himself; was a non-tenure-track part-time instructor in law at the [[University of Chicago]].
*[[Rick Santorum]] - former US Senator of Pennsylvania, Chairman of Senate Republican Conference, GOP Presidential primary candidate 2012, attorney
*[[Margaret Thatcher]] - food chemist then barrister specialising in taxation; the "Iron Lady" who pioneered privatisation, ended trade union control of the British economy and worked with Reagan to end the menace of communism

=== Others ===

*[[Vladimir Putin]] - former KGB operative who rose to be President of Russia, and then Prime Minister
*[[Michael Heseltine]] - UK Deputy Prime Minister, publisher
*[[Stanley Baldwin]] - Prime Minister, businessman (metal trade), industrialist.

(please add examples)

==References==
<references/>
[[Category:Essays]]

User:Austenbosten

2011-08-18T17:58:07Z

Austenbosten: /* Contributions */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] helped cure me of my mental disorder and made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon
* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

Mark Levin

2011-08-16T02:24:09Z

Austenbosten: /* The Mark Levin Lexicon */ new John McCain and Warren Buffet

[[File:Marklevin.jpg|right]]

'''Mark Reed Levin''' (born September 21, 1957) is a Constitutional lawyer, president of the the prestigious [[Landmark Legal Foundation]] in [[Washington D.C.]], a top-rated nationally syndicated [[conservative talk radio]] host and a best selling non-fiction author. Also, the former Chief of Staff for Attorney General Edwin Meese during the [[Reagan Administration]]. Mark has been a frequent guest and substitute host on The Sean Hannity Show, and has also been an advisor to [[Rush Limbaugh]], who frequently refers to him on the air with the nickname "F. Lee Levin." A reference to the famous defense attorney F. Lee Bailey. He is perhaps more well-known for his nickname, 'The Great One,' coined by his friend [[Sean Hannity]]. He is a believer in spreading the conservative message and wants the citizens to take an active political role in society.

==Career and honors==
Beginning in 1981, Mark R. Levin served as advisor to several members of President Ronald Reagan's Cabinet, eventually becoming Associate Director of Presidential Personnel and ultimately Chief of Staff to Attorney General Edwin Meese; Levin also served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Elementary and Secondary Education at the U.S. Department of Education, and Deputy Solicitor of the U.S. Department of the Interior. He has practiced law in the private sector, and is president of the Landmark Legal Foundation in Leesburg, Virginia. He holds a B.A. from Temple University, where he graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude, as well as a J.D. from the Temple University Beasley School of Law.

In 2001, the American Conservative Union named Levin the recipient of the prestigious Ronald Reagan Award.

==Radio Host==
Levin's first radio job was a Sunday afternoon show on WABC networks in 2002. In 2003, The Mark Levin Show was broadcast from the competitive 6:00 p.m. (EST) time slot, Monday through Friday. The show is distributed to over 150 stations and satellite radio by Citadel Media on ABC Radio Networks. His ever growing audience is top-rated on the AM frequency with over 5.5 million average listeners.

==Author==
Levin's published the book ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' which discusses how [[activist judges]] are [[Judicial activism|legislating from the bench]]. This book was released in 2005 and became a best-seller. In 2007, he published a non-political book '' "Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish," ''that dealt with the adoption of his dog from a humane society. His next book would be an instant success,'' "[[Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto.]]" ''The book opened to 13 of 14 weeks as the No.1 best seller on the New York Times list. A review from Amazon.com says, '' "Levin lays out how conservatives can counter the [[liberal]] corrosion that has filtered into every timely issue affecting our daily lives, from the economy to health care, global warming, immigration, and more -- and illustrates how change, as seen through the conservative lens, is always prudent, and always an enhancement to individual freedom." '' His book is endorsed by fellow conservative talk radio host [[Rush Limbaugh]]. Levin said that his book is so successful without any help of the [[mainstream media]] outlets, which not even a single network has done a review. More than 1 million copies have been sold.

==Television & Internet==
Levin makes regular appearances with [[Hannity]] on [[Fox News]]. Levin is also a contributing editor for National Review Online. Also, Levin has social networking pages on [[Twitter]] and [[Facebook]].

==The Mark Levin Lexicon==
Levin holds disdain for the [[mainstream media]] and the politicians who pander to them. He often likes to refer to them in a derogatory and humorous way. It is Levin's style that distinguishes himself from other radio personalities.

*[[New York Times]] = New York Slimes, [[Washington Post]] = Washington Compost, [[Associated Press]] = Associated Depressed, [[Huffington Post]] = Huffington Puffington Compost
*[[ABC News]] = ABC Snooze, [[CBS News]] = CBS Snooze, [[MSNBC]] = MSLSD
*[[Face the Nation]] = Deface the Nation
*[[Meet the Press]] = Meet the Depressed
*Morning Joe = Morning Schmo
*Countdown, with [[Keith Olbermann]] = Countdown to No Ratings, with Keith Overbite
*Hardball with [[Chris Matthews]] = Screwball on Screwball, Chris "I'll have another drink" Matthews
*[[Bill O'Reilly]] = The Non-Factor
*[[Rachel Maddow]] = Rachel Madcow
*[[Glenn Beck]] = The Backbencher with Tourettes
*[[Tom Brokaw]] = Tom Broke-jaw
*[[Tim Russert]] = Mr. Potatohead
*Cris Collinsworth = Cris Collinsworthless
*[[David Letterman]] = David Letterdork, The Buck-Toothed Moron
*[[MediaMatters]] = The criminal operation known as Media Matters, MediaDoesn'tMatters
*[[American Civil Liberties Union]] = American Criminal Liberties Union
*[[National Organization for Women]] = National Organization for Women Who Look Like Men, National Organization for Really Ugly Women
*[[Chuck Schumer]] = Chucky Schmucky Schumer
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Stretch Pelosi
*[[Barbara Boxer]] = The Dwarf Senator
*[[Dick Durbin]] = "Little Dick" Durbin
*[[Howard Dean]] = Dr. Demento Dean
*[[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] = Hillary Rotten Clinton, Her Thighness
*[[Bill Clinton]] = BJ Bill Jefferson Clinton
*[[Ted Kennedy]] = The Cape Cod Orca, FatTed
*[[Joe Biden]] = The Dumbest Man in the Senate, Plugs Biden
*[[John Kerry]] = John "D-Student" Kerry
*[[John McCain]] = John McLame, John McPain
*[[John Murtha]] = Lardass
*[[John Dingell]] = John Dingleberry
*[[Harry Reid]] = Harry "The Body Odor" Reid
*[[Lindsey Graham]] = Goober, Lindsey Grahamnesty
*[[Lincoln Chafee]] = Lincoln Chafing
*[[Dianne Feinstein]] = Dianne Frankenfeinstein
*[[Mary Landrieu]] = Mary Landfill
*[[Barney Frank]] = Barney's Frank
*[[Kathleen Sebelius]] = Kathleen Silly-us
*[[Jim Webb]] = Jim Melonhead Webb
*[[Arnold Schwarzenegger]] = The Jerkinator, a moron in two languages
*[[Rahm Emanuel]] = Al Capone
*[[Barack Hussein Obama]] = Barack Milhous Nobama, Barack America
*[[Al Franken]] = The Spiteful Troll
*[[Henry Waxman]] = The Crypt Keeper
*[[Olympia Snowe]] = Olympia Snowe-job
*[[Arlen Specter]] = Arlen Spectacle
*[[Colin Powell]] = Colon Polyp
*[[Ron Paul]] = RuPaul
*[[Jesse Jackson]] = Jesse Jerkson
*[[Al Sharpton]] = Al "Not So" Sharpton
*[[Jeremiah Wright]] = The Wrong Reverend Wright
*[[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] = Yabba-Dabba-Doo
*[[Harry Belafonte]] = Harry BelaCommie
*[[Oprah Winfrey]] = Oprah Windbag
*[[Matt Damon]] = Matt Demon
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben AFLAC
*[[George Clooney]] = George Looney
*[[Michael Savage]] = Weiner Nation
*[[Don Imus]] = I'm-a-Wuss in the Morning
*[[Jon Stewart]] = Jon Stewart AKA John Leibowitz AKA Jon Stewart
*[[Steven Colbert]] = Steven Cole-BERT
*Moderate Republicans = RePubicans, RePubics
*[[EPA]] = Soviet Protection Agency
*[[Michael Bloomberg]] = Michael Bloomturd, the man that opposes salt on your food and on your streets
*[[Mike Huckabee]] = Hucka-a-Phoney
*[[Donald Trump]] = Donald Chump
*[[Steny Hoyer]] = Stimpy Hoyer
*[[Russ Feingold]] = Foolsgold
*[[Chris Wallace]] = The Flake
*[[Chuck Hagel]] = Schmagel
*[[Bill Maher]] = Short, stupid, white-comedian guy
*[[Charles Krauthammer]] = Charles Krautheimer
*Warren Buffet = Warren Buffét (as in the culinary term)

==Quotes==

* Liberalism is mind-boggling and stupid. <ref>July 7, 2011 broadcast</ref>

* Speaking of [[Barack Hussein Obama]], "You cannot be a [[statist]] and a believer in the [[Declaration of Independence]]."

* Speaking of Congressional liberals, "You are some of the biggest frauds on the face of the Earth. Liberalism is lying. Sorry, it's true."

* From his August 4th, 2009 radio program, ''"We now have the [[liberal playbook]] and we know what they are doing, and we are using it against them. Unlike the Democrats though, we aren't out to destroy our society, we are out to save it."''

* "The Congressional Switchboard number is easy to remember, 1-877-SOB-U-SOB, I kid you not." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# 03/18 The Mark Levin Show]</ref>

* "[[Obama]] is a liar. Those who carry water for him like [[Pelosi]], Reid, and the [[Mainstream media | hacks on TV]] are liars too, because they knowingly repeat falsehoods." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com Mark Levin Show 3/30/10]</ref>

* Get off my phone you big dope!

== See also ==
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Landmark Legal Foundation]]

== Books ==
* ''Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416562850
* ''Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416559132
* ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1596980095
[[File:Rescuesprite.gif]]

==References==
<references/>

==External Links==
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com Official website]
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930 Free archive of past shows]
*[http://www.landmarklegal.org Landmark Legal Foundation]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Levin, Mark}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:Authors]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

Rush Limbaugh

2011-08-15T18:48:16Z

Austenbosten: /* The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon */

[[Image:RushLimbaugh 1.jpg|right|200px]]
'''Rush Limbaugh''' (born January 12, 1951) is an extremely popular American [[conservative]] radio talk show host and author. Limbaugh has risen to the top of the ratings charts as an intensely conservative voice in a talk radio media environment dominated by conservatives. In his sharp criticisms of the [[Obama Administration]] Limbaugh has been characterized as one of the ''de facto'' leaders of the opposition. Historians compare his role to Walter Winchell, a radio commentator of the 1930s-1950s era. He has been ranked by ''The Daily Telegraph'', a popular UK newspaper, as the second most influential conservative.<ref>[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6990965/The-most-influential-US-conservatives-20-1.html The most influential US conservatives]</ref>

== Early Years ==
Rush Hudson Limbaugh III was born in 1951 in Cape Girardeau, [[Missouri]]. At age 16, he chose to explore his passion for broadcasting by working as a [[disc jockey]], hosting a radio show in his hometown. After four years, he left for [[Pittsburgh]] to work for the former [[ABC News|ABC]] owned and operated ''KQV''. Following his work as a disc jockey, Rush briefly left broadcasting for [[business]], joining the [[Kansas City Royals]] as Director of Group Sales, and then Director of Sales and Special Events. In 1983, he re-entered radio as a political commentator for ''KMBZ'' in [[Kansas City]]. A year later, in 1984, Rush dropped out of [[college]] after his freshman year to pursue work full-time as a disk jockey, when ''KFBK'' in [[Sacramento]], [[California]] hired him to host a talk show that reveled in controversy about conservative politics. Limbaugh tripled the program's ratings in four years. From there, in 1988 he went on to [[New York]] where the record-breaking national show, the ''EIB Network'', was born.

On August 1, 1988, Rush launched his phenomenally successful radio broadcast into national syndication, with 56 radio stations. More than 20 years later the show is heard on nearly 600 stations by up to 20 million people each week and is the highest-rated national radio talk show in America. Rush was awarded the "Syndicated Radio Personality" of the year by the [[National Association of Broadcasters]] in 1992, 1995, 2000, and 2005. He was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 1993 and National Association of Broadcasters Hall of Fame in 1998. Rush Limbaugh has been labeled as the savior of AM radio by broadcast industry leaders, sometimes called the "Doctor of Democracy."<ref name=doctor>[http://www.twoifbytea.com/doctor.php Rush Limbaugh, the "Doctor of Democracy"], [[Two If By Tea|TwoIfByTea.com]].</ref>

== Radio ==
Limbaugh hosts a radio show famed for its incisive criticism of the follies of liberalism. He is often at odds with liberal activists, such as [[Al Franken]], who wrote a book entitled ''"Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot". Limbaugh habitually refers to [[feminists]] who support [[abortion]] as ''feminazis'' and to his own self as having "talent on loan from God". Sensitive about his own schooling, he ridicules the college educated as the "Arts & Croissant Crowd."

Limbaugh's conservative talk show is nationally syndicated and averages over 16-20 million listeners weekly, making him the #1 radio talk show host in America.
<ref>[http://www.talkers.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=34 The Top Talk Radio Audiences] Talkers magazine online</ref> In July 2008, Rush announced "he has renewed his contract with Premiere Radio Networks and Clear Channel Radio, continuing syndication of his show 'many years into the future.'" <ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27326 Rush Renews Contract], ''[[Human Events]]'', July, 2, 2008</ref>

=== Audience ===
Limbaugh's fans enjoy his bluster and bombast, but behind it there is a substantive defense of a coherent political philosophy. He makes politics engaging and entertaining, producing an audience more eager to seek out other sources of information. Limbaugh "dittoheads" consume more print news than do non-listeners. Like Fox News viewers, Limbaugh fans are more likely to tune in to presidential debates. Far from making people cynical or indifferent toward public affairs, Limbaugh reinforces his audience's disposition to participate in the political process.<ref>Jamieson and Cappella (2008) </ref>

Conservative Republicans are in his audience, but educational attainment, family income, and race do not predict who listens. Listening to Limbaugh is significantly correlated with public affairs information. He is not merely an entertainer and people who listen to him regularly are very well informed on public affairs. However, his radio audience is smaller than the TV audiences of conservative commentators [[Bill O'Reilly]] and [[Sean Hannity]].<ref> Stephen Earl Bennett, " Who Listens to Rush Limbaugh's Radio Program and the Relationship Between Listening to Limbaugh and Knowledge of Public Affairs, 1994-2006," ''Journal of Radio & Audio Media,'' May 2009, Vol. 16 Issue 1, p66-82, in [[EBSCO]]</ref>

=== Poking fun at Obama liberals ===
Newsweek editor Evan Thomas said on MSNBC's "Hardball" that Obama was "sort of God."

Asking rhetorically what [[God]] has in common with Obama, Limbaugh said, "Neither has a birth certificate." <ref>[http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100717 Rush Limbaugh pummels Obama on birth certificate] WND, June 10, 2009</ref> He went on to say "God does not think he's Obama," and "Liberals love Obama." Limbaugh explained more differences, "Another difference is that God only demands to be worshiped once a week," and "God asks for only 10 percent of your money", and "God gives you freedom to live your life as you choose."

=== Obama to Fail ===
Limbaugh made national headlines when he was asked to write 400 words for a newspaper column about Obama's plans. He said he didn't need 400 words, he needed just four: "I hope he fails." He was immediately attacked by the Obama White House and liberal pundits as an unpatriotic obstructionist. Limbaugh expounded his view in the show's [http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011609/content/01125113.guest.html transcript]; if Obama is for socialist policies and against capitalist policies, of course Limbaugh could not support those policies, and hoped he would fail. <ref>[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011609/content/01125113.guest.html Limbaugh radio show transcript.]</ref>

Limbaugh addressed [[CPAC]] and further discussed his stance that generated so much attention. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/01/limbaugh-leader-obama-chief-staff-calls-talk-host-barrier-progress/ Limbaugh the Leader? Obama Chief of Staff] Fox News, March 01, 2009</ref> {{cquote| ''"Did the Democrats want the war in Iraq to fail? Well, they certainly did. And they not only wanted the war in Iraq to fail, they proclaimed it a failure. ... The last thing they wanted was to win. They hoped George Bush failed. So where is it -- what is so strange about being honest and saying, I want Barack Obama to fail if his mission is to restructure and reform this country so that capitalism and individual liberty are not its foundation? Why would I want that to succeed?"'' }}

Republican National Chairman Michael Steele called Limbaugh an "entertainer" whose comments were "incendiary" and "ugly," and Limbaugh counterattacked Steele's fitness to run the party. A Gallup poll in May 2009 on who was the main voice of the GOP found Limbaugh leading the pack at 13%, with Steele trailing at 1%.

== Other Media Work ==
The Limbaugh Letter is a monthly publication that contains conservative articles and humor in Rush's style.

Limbaugh is involved in the conservative satire show "The 1/2 Hour News Hour" show on the [[Fox News Channel]]. <ref>
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/16/AR2007021602098.html Fox News Channel's '1/2 Hour News Hour': Right Funny, in Spots] washingtonpost.com</ref>

Rush occasionally writes op-ed pieces for the [[Wall Street Journal]].

== Politics ==
Limbaugh endorsed [[Mitt Romney]] for the [[2008 Presidential Election]]. <ref>[http://www.cnsnews.com/ThisHour.asp#Limbaugh%20Endorses%20Romney Limbaugh Endorses Romney], [[Melanie Hunter]], ''[[CNSNews]]'', February 05, 2008</ref> He was often critical of [[John McCain]] during the Republican primaries, but supported him in the general election.

Limbaugh has warned against false prophets, telling his audience in 1996 that, "You are being manipulated in a way that I find very bothersome." "Pat Buchanan is not a conservative. He's a populist."<ref>See [http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/23/us/politics-on-the-air-radio-talk-show-host-fears-for-true-conservatism-s-fate.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fL%2fLimbaugh%2c%20Rush Robin Toner, "Radio Talk Show Host Fears For True Conservatism's Fate," ''New York Times'' Feb. 23, 1996]</ref>.

=== The Harry Reid Letter ===
On October 2, 2007, Senate Majority Leader [[Harry Reid]] wrote a letter to Mark P. Mays, President and CEO of Clear Channel Communications, who is Limbaugh's chief patron. In it Senator Reid essentially demanded that Mays order Limbaugh to apologize for remarks he made concerning "phony soldiers."<ref name=ReidText>Reid, Harry, ''et al.'' "[http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=284699 Letter to Mark P. Mays of Clear Channel Communications]." [http://reid.senate.gov/ Electronic Office of US Senator Harry Reid], October 2, 2007. Retrieved October 19, 2007.</ref> A ''phony soldier'' is someone who is not a soldier at all but is pretending to be one, especially in a public forum. Such activity is unlawful, and the faker whose activity prompted Limbaugh's attacks has since been convicted and punished.<ref name=PhonySoldier>Limbaugh, Rush. "[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092807/content/01125106.guest.html The Anatomy of a Smear: 'Phony Soldiers' Is a Phony Story]." ''[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Rush Limbaugh Official Site]'', accessed December 25, 2007.</ref> This letter was co-signed by nearly all Democratic senators. In a speech in Philadelphia on October 11th, Limbaugh announced plans to sell the original letter on eBay in a charity auction. The proceeds went to the Marine Corps Law Enforcement Foundation. The letter sold for $2.1 million and Limbaugh matched the winning amount with a total of $4.2 million being donated. <ref>http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/420889/harry_reidrush_limbaugh_letter_nets.html</ref>

=== Victim of a Democratic prosecutor's witchhunt ===
On October 6, 2003 Limbaugh told his audience he was addicted to OxyContin and other painkillers citing a failed back surgery as the cause of his pain and subsequent dependence. <ref>The Rush Limbaugh Show, October 6, 2007.</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/10/10/rush.limbaugh/ "Limbaugh admits addiction to pain medication"</ref> Limbaugh underwent treatment for his addiction, and charges against him for alleged "doctor shopping" to procure prescription medications were dropped<ref>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/28/national/main1561324.shtml</ref> after Democratic prosecutors illegally seized private medical records<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/hottopics/Rush_Limbaugh.shtml </ref> in a blatant misuse of the criminal justice system to discredit Limbaugh.

== Sports ==
Limbaugh is an avid sports fan, particularly football. He briefly held a position as a commentator on ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown pre-game show. He resigned from the show on October 2, 2006 after comments made regarding Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb received widespread criticism.

{{cquote|''' ''"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."'' '''}}

After McNabb's response, "It's sad that you've got to go to skin color. I thought we were through with that whole deal," significant pressure was put upon Limbaugh to resign. <ref>http://espn.go.com/gen/news/2003/1001/1628537.html</ref>

== Other Facts ==
The following is a list of other facts about Rush Limbaugh:<ref name=doctor/>
* Honorary Member of the [[Republican]] Freshman Class 1995 [[House of Representatives]].
* [[Time Magazine]]’s 100 Most Influential People in the world (2009).
* [[Forbes|Forbes Magazine]] 50 Most Powerful Celebrities in the United States, numerous years (#19 in 2010).
* [[Barbara Walters]]’ 10 Most Fascinating People (2008).
* The Giving Back Fund’s 10 Most Generous Celebrities for contributions to charities and individuals, such as the [[Marine Corps - Law Enforcement Foundation]].
* Raised 20 Million Dollars for the [[Leukemia]] and [[Lymphoma Society]] since 1989. Each year Rush hosts a Radiothon (one three-hour broadcast per year) during his program to raise funds for Leukemia and Lymphoma research.
* Author of ''The Limbaugh Letter'', the most widely read political newsletter in the country and two best-selling books, ''The Way Things Ought to Be'' (ISBN 067175145x) and ''See, I Told You So'' (ISBN 067187120X), which have sold over 8.9 million copies, including an American publishing record for ''See, I Told You So''.
* Guest Television appearances include ''[[Nightline]]'' with [[Ted Koppel]], ''Cross Fire'', ''[[Good Morning America]]'', ''[[CBS|CBS This Morning]]'', ''[[The Today Show]]'', ''The Phil Donahue Show'', ''[[The Late Show]]'' with [[David Letterman]], ''[[The Tonight Show]]'', ''[[This Week]]'' with [[David Brinkley]], ''[[Meet the Press]]'' with [[Tim Russert]], and [[The Drew Carey Show]]. Rush also starred as himself in the popular network sitcoms ''[[Family Guy]]'' and ''[[Hearts Afire]]''.
* Profiled on CBS's ''60 Minutes'', [[ABC]]'s ''20/20'' and in numerous publications including ''[[U.S. News and World Report]]'', ''[[Newsweek]]'', ''[[National Review]]'', ''[[Time Magazine]]'', ''[[New York Times|The New York Times Magazine]]'' and ''[[USA Weekend]]''.
* ''Miss America Pageant'' judge (2010).

== Quotes ==
* "You know why there's a Second Amendment? In case the government fails to follow the first one." - Rush Limbaugh, 17 Aug 1993

== The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon ==
Like Mark Levin and others, Rush Limbaugh holds a lexicon for many liberals and Democrats, although Rush's lexicon is less expansive as Mark Levin's

*[[Mainstream Media]] = Drive-by Media
*[[CNN]] = Communist News Network (was originally called the "Clinton News Network" during the Clinton administration.)
*[[Barack Obama]] = Barack "Mmm mmm mmm" Obama (This is in reference to the propagandist school song about Obama)
*[[Joe Biden]] = Joe Bite-Me
*[[Harry Reid]] = Dingy Harry
*[[Debbie Wasserman Schultz]] = Debbie Blabbermouth Schultz
*[[John Edwards]] = Breck girl
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Bela Pelosi
*Barbra Walters = Baba Wawa
*Chuck Todd = F Chuck Todd
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben Affliction
*Paul Begala = The Forehead

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==See Also==
*[[Previous Breaking News/Rush Limbaugh|Articles about '''Rush Limbaugh''' from previous "Breaking News"]]
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Rush Derangement Syndrome]]

==External Links==
*[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Official Rush Limbaugh website]
*[http://www.cspan.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-A-15919 Rush's 2009 Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) Speech], ''C-SPAN'', February 28, 2009
*[http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/rush-limbaugh/id406055530?mt=8#ls=1 The Rush Limbaugh Show], [[iPhone]] app, by Premiere Radio Networks, Inc.

==Further reading==
* Gordon, Scott. ''Rush Limbaugh: An Oral & Media Biography'' (2009). 258pp quotes and comments by his friends and enemies.
* Jamieson, Kathleen Hall, and Joseph N. Cappella. ''Echo Chamber: Rush Limbaugh and the Conservative Media Establishment'' (2008) balanced analysis by scholars; compares Limbaugh with Fox and ''Wall Street Journal'' [http://www.amazon.com/Echo-Chamber-Limbaugh-Conservative-Establishment/dp/0195398602/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261865854&sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]

{{DEFAULTSORT: Limbaugh, Rush}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Republican Party]]
[[Category:Conservative Commentators]]
[[Category:Obama Presidency]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

Rush Limbaugh

2011-08-15T18:47:02Z

Austenbosten: Added the Rush Limbaugh Lexicon

[[Image:RushLimbaugh 1.jpg|right|200px]]
'''Rush Limbaugh''' (born January 12, 1951) is an extremely popular American [[conservative]] radio talk show host and author. Limbaugh has risen to the top of the ratings charts as an intensely conservative voice in a talk radio media environment dominated by conservatives. In his sharp criticisms of the [[Obama Administration]] Limbaugh has been characterized as one of the ''de facto'' leaders of the opposition. Historians compare his role to Walter Winchell, a radio commentator of the 1930s-1950s era. He has been ranked by ''The Daily Telegraph'', a popular UK newspaper, as the second most influential conservative.<ref>[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6990965/The-most-influential-US-conservatives-20-1.html The most influential US conservatives]</ref>

== Early Years ==
Rush Hudson Limbaugh III was born in 1951 in Cape Girardeau, [[Missouri]]. At age 16, he chose to explore his passion for broadcasting by working as a [[disc jockey]], hosting a radio show in his hometown. After four years, he left for [[Pittsburgh]] to work for the former [[ABC News|ABC]] owned and operated ''KQV''. Following his work as a disc jockey, Rush briefly left broadcasting for [[business]], joining the [[Kansas City Royals]] as Director of Group Sales, and then Director of Sales and Special Events. In 1983, he re-entered radio as a political commentator for ''KMBZ'' in [[Kansas City]]. A year later, in 1984, Rush dropped out of [[college]] after his freshman year to pursue work full-time as a disk jockey, when ''KFBK'' in [[Sacramento]], [[California]] hired him to host a talk show that reveled in controversy about conservative politics. Limbaugh tripled the program's ratings in four years. From there, in 1988 he went on to [[New York]] where the record-breaking national show, the ''EIB Network'', was born.

On August 1, 1988, Rush launched his phenomenally successful radio broadcast into national syndication, with 56 radio stations. More than 20 years later the show is heard on nearly 600 stations by up to 20 million people each week and is the highest-rated national radio talk show in America. Rush was awarded the "Syndicated Radio Personality" of the year by the [[National Association of Broadcasters]] in 1992, 1995, 2000, and 2005. He was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 1993 and National Association of Broadcasters Hall of Fame in 1998. Rush Limbaugh has been labeled as the savior of AM radio by broadcast industry leaders, sometimes called the "Doctor of Democracy."<ref name=doctor>[http://www.twoifbytea.com/doctor.php Rush Limbaugh, the "Doctor of Democracy"], [[Two If By Tea|TwoIfByTea.com]].</ref>

== Radio ==
Limbaugh hosts a radio show famed for its incisive criticism of the follies of liberalism. He is often at odds with liberal activists, such as [[Al Franken]], who wrote a book entitled ''"Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot". Limbaugh habitually refers to [[feminists]] who support [[abortion]] as ''feminazis'' and to his own self as having "talent on loan from God". Sensitive about his own schooling, he ridicules the college educated as the "Arts & Croissant Crowd."

Limbaugh's conservative talk show is nationally syndicated and averages over 16-20 million listeners weekly, making him the #1 radio talk show host in America.
<ref>[http://www.talkers.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=34 The Top Talk Radio Audiences] Talkers magazine online</ref> In July 2008, Rush announced "he has renewed his contract with Premiere Radio Networks and Clear Channel Radio, continuing syndication of his show 'many years into the future.'" <ref>[http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27326 Rush Renews Contract], ''[[Human Events]]'', July, 2, 2008</ref>

=== Audience ===
Limbaugh's fans enjoy his bluster and bombast, but behind it there is a substantive defense of a coherent political philosophy. He makes politics engaging and entertaining, producing an audience more eager to seek out other sources of information. Limbaugh "dittoheads" consume more print news than do non-listeners. Like Fox News viewers, Limbaugh fans are more likely to tune in to presidential debates. Far from making people cynical or indifferent toward public affairs, Limbaugh reinforces his audience's disposition to participate in the political process.<ref>Jamieson and Cappella (2008) </ref>

Conservative Republicans are in his audience, but educational attainment, family income, and race do not predict who listens. Listening to Limbaugh is significantly correlated with public affairs information. He is not merely an entertainer and people who listen to him regularly are very well informed on public affairs. However, his radio audience is smaller than the TV audiences of conservative commentators [[Bill O'Reilly]] and [[Sean Hannity]].<ref> Stephen Earl Bennett, " Who Listens to Rush Limbaugh's Radio Program and the Relationship Between Listening to Limbaugh and Knowledge of Public Affairs, 1994-2006," ''Journal of Radio & Audio Media,'' May 2009, Vol. 16 Issue 1, p66-82, in [[EBSCO]]</ref>

=== Poking fun at Obama liberals ===
Newsweek editor Evan Thomas said on MSNBC's "Hardball" that Obama was "sort of God."

Asking rhetorically what [[God]] has in common with Obama, Limbaugh said, "Neither has a birth certificate." <ref>[http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100717 Rush Limbaugh pummels Obama on birth certificate] WND, June 10, 2009</ref> He went on to say "God does not think he's Obama," and "Liberals love Obama." Limbaugh explained more differences, "Another difference is that God only demands to be worshiped once a week," and "God asks for only 10 percent of your money", and "God gives you freedom to live your life as you choose."

=== Obama to Fail ===
Limbaugh made national headlines when he was asked to write 400 words for a newspaper column about Obama's plans. He said he didn't need 400 words, he needed just four: "I hope he fails." He was immediately attacked by the Obama White House and liberal pundits as an unpatriotic obstructionist. Limbaugh expounded his view in the show's [http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011609/content/01125113.guest.html transcript]; if Obama is for socialist policies and against capitalist policies, of course Limbaugh could not support those policies, and hoped he would fail. <ref>[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011609/content/01125113.guest.html Limbaugh radio show transcript.]</ref>

Limbaugh addressed [[CPAC]] and further discussed his stance that generated so much attention. <ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/01/limbaugh-leader-obama-chief-staff-calls-talk-host-barrier-progress/ Limbaugh the Leader? Obama Chief of Staff] Fox News, March 01, 2009</ref> {{cquote| ''"Did the Democrats want the war in Iraq to fail? Well, they certainly did. And they not only wanted the war in Iraq to fail, they proclaimed it a failure. ... The last thing they wanted was to win. They hoped George Bush failed. So where is it -- what is so strange about being honest and saying, I want Barack Obama to fail if his mission is to restructure and reform this country so that capitalism and individual liberty are not its foundation? Why would I want that to succeed?"'' }}

Republican National Chairman Michael Steele called Limbaugh an "entertainer" whose comments were "incendiary" and "ugly," and Limbaugh counterattacked Steele's fitness to run the party. A Gallup poll in May 2009 on who was the main voice of the GOP found Limbaugh leading the pack at 13%, with Steele trailing at 1%.

== Other Media Work ==
The Limbaugh Letter is a monthly publication that contains conservative articles and humor in Rush's style.

Limbaugh is involved in the conservative satire show "The 1/2 Hour News Hour" show on the [[Fox News Channel]]. <ref>
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/16/AR2007021602098.html Fox News Channel's '1/2 Hour News Hour': Right Funny, in Spots] washingtonpost.com</ref>

Rush occasionally writes op-ed pieces for the [[Wall Street Journal]].

== Politics ==
Limbaugh endorsed [[Mitt Romney]] for the [[2008 Presidential Election]]. <ref>[http://www.cnsnews.com/ThisHour.asp#Limbaugh%20Endorses%20Romney Limbaugh Endorses Romney], [[Melanie Hunter]], ''[[CNSNews]]'', February 05, 2008</ref> He was often critical of [[John McCain]] during the Republican primaries, but supported him in the general election.

Limbaugh has warned against false prophets, telling his audience in 1996 that, "You are being manipulated in a way that I find very bothersome." "Pat Buchanan is not a conservative. He's a populist."<ref>See [http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/23/us/politics-on-the-air-radio-talk-show-host-fears-for-true-conservatism-s-fate.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fL%2fLimbaugh%2c%20Rush Robin Toner, "Radio Talk Show Host Fears For True Conservatism's Fate," ''New York Times'' Feb. 23, 1996]</ref>.

=== The Harry Reid Letter ===
On October 2, 2007, Senate Majority Leader [[Harry Reid]] wrote a letter to Mark P. Mays, President and CEO of Clear Channel Communications, who is Limbaugh's chief patron. In it Senator Reid essentially demanded that Mays order Limbaugh to apologize for remarks he made concerning "phony soldiers."<ref name=ReidText>Reid, Harry, ''et al.'' "[http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=284699 Letter to Mark P. Mays of Clear Channel Communications]." [http://reid.senate.gov/ Electronic Office of US Senator Harry Reid], October 2, 2007. Retrieved October 19, 2007.</ref> A ''phony soldier'' is someone who is not a soldier at all but is pretending to be one, especially in a public forum. Such activity is unlawful, and the faker whose activity prompted Limbaugh's attacks has since been convicted and punished.<ref name=PhonySoldier>Limbaugh, Rush. "[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092807/content/01125106.guest.html The Anatomy of a Smear: 'Phony Soldiers' Is a Phony Story]." ''[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Rush Limbaugh Official Site]'', accessed December 25, 2007.</ref> This letter was co-signed by nearly all Democratic senators. In a speech in Philadelphia on October 11th, Limbaugh announced plans to sell the original letter on eBay in a charity auction. The proceeds went to the Marine Corps Law Enforcement Foundation. The letter sold for $2.1 million and Limbaugh matched the winning amount with a total of $4.2 million being donated. <ref>http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/420889/harry_reidrush_limbaugh_letter_nets.html</ref>

=== Victim of a Democratic prosecutor's witchhunt ===
On October 6, 2003 Limbaugh told his audience he was addicted to OxyContin and other painkillers citing a failed back surgery as the cause of his pain and subsequent dependence. <ref>The Rush Limbaugh Show, October 6, 2007.</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/10/10/rush.limbaugh/ "Limbaugh admits addiction to pain medication"</ref> Limbaugh underwent treatment for his addiction, and charges against him for alleged "doctor shopping" to procure prescription medications were dropped<ref>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/28/national/main1561324.shtml</ref> after Democratic prosecutors illegally seized private medical records<ref>http://archive.newsmax.com/hottopics/Rush_Limbaugh.shtml </ref> in a blatant misuse of the criminal justice system to discredit Limbaugh.

== Sports ==
Limbaugh is an avid sports fan, particularly football. He briefly held a position as a commentator on ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown pre-game show. He resigned from the show on October 2, 2006 after comments made regarding Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb received widespread criticism.

{{cquote|''' ''"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."'' '''}}

After McNabb's response, "It's sad that you've got to go to skin color. I thought we were through with that whole deal," significant pressure was put upon Limbaugh to resign. <ref>http://espn.go.com/gen/news/2003/1001/1628537.html</ref>

== Other Facts ==
The following is a list of other facts about Rush Limbaugh:<ref name=doctor/>
* Honorary Member of the [[Republican]] Freshman Class 1995 [[House of Representatives]].
* [[Time Magazine]]’s 100 Most Influential People in the world (2009).
* [[Forbes|Forbes Magazine]] 50 Most Powerful Celebrities in the United States, numerous years (#19 in 2010).
* [[Barbara Walters]]’ 10 Most Fascinating People (2008).
* The Giving Back Fund’s 10 Most Generous Celebrities for contributions to charities and individuals, such as the [[Marine Corps - Law Enforcement Foundation]].
* Raised 20 Million Dollars for the [[Leukemia]] and [[Lymphoma Society]] since 1989. Each year Rush hosts a Radiothon (one three-hour broadcast per year) during his program to raise funds for Leukemia and Lymphoma research.
* Author of ''The Limbaugh Letter'', the most widely read political newsletter in the country and two best-selling books, ''The Way Things Ought to Be'' (ISBN 067175145x) and ''See, I Told You So'' (ISBN 067187120X), which have sold over 8.9 million copies, including an American publishing record for ''See, I Told You So''.
* Guest Television appearances include ''[[Nightline]]'' with [[Ted Koppel]], ''Cross Fire'', ''[[Good Morning America]]'', ''[[CBS|CBS This Morning]]'', ''[[The Today Show]]'', ''The Phil Donahue Show'', ''[[The Late Show]]'' with [[David Letterman]], ''[[The Tonight Show]]'', ''[[This Week]]'' with [[David Brinkley]], ''[[Meet the Press]]'' with [[Tim Russert]], and [[The Drew Carey Show]]. Rush also starred as himself in the popular network sitcoms ''[[Family Guy]]'' and ''[[Hearts Afire]]''.
* Profiled on CBS's ''60 Minutes'', [[ABC]]'s ''20/20'' and in numerous publications including ''[[U.S. News and World Report]]'', ''[[Newsweek]]'', ''[[National Review]]'', ''[[Time Magazine]]'', ''[[New York Times|The New York Times Magazine]]'' and ''[[USA Weekend]]''.
* ''Miss America Pageant'' judge (2010).

== Quotes ==
* "You know why there's a Second Amendment? In case the government fails to follow the first one." - Rush Limbaugh, 17 Aug 1993

== The Rush Limbaugh Lexicon ==
Like Mark Levin and others, Rush Limbaugh holds a lexicon for many liberals and Democrats, although Rush's lexicon is less expansive as Mark Levin's

*[[Mainstream Media]] = Drive-by Media
*[[CNN]] = Communist News Network (was originally called the "Clinton News Network" during the Clinton administration.)
*[[Barack Obama]] = Barack "Mmm mmm mmm" Obama ([i]This is in reference to the propagandist school song about Obama[/i])
*[[Joe Biden]] = Joe Bite-Me
*[[Harry Reid]] = Dingy Harry
*[[Debbie Wasserman Schultz]] = Debbie Blabbermouth Schultz
*[[John Edwards]] = Breck girl
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Bela Pelosi
*Barbra Walters = Baba Wawa
*Chuck Todd = F Chuck Todd
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben Affliction
*Paul Begala = The Forehead

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==See Also==
*[[Previous Breaking News/Rush Limbaugh|Articles about '''Rush Limbaugh''' from previous "Breaking News"]]
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Rush Derangement Syndrome]]

==External Links==
*[http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Official Rush Limbaugh website]
*[http://www.cspan.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-A-15919 Rush's 2009 Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) Speech], ''C-SPAN'', February 28, 2009
*[http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/rush-limbaugh/id406055530?mt=8#ls=1 The Rush Limbaugh Show], [[iPhone]] app, by Premiere Radio Networks, Inc.

==Further reading==
* Gordon, Scott. ''Rush Limbaugh: An Oral & Media Biography'' (2009). 258pp quotes and comments by his friends and enemies.
* Jamieson, Kathleen Hall, and Joseph N. Cappella. ''Echo Chamber: Rush Limbaugh and the Conservative Media Establishment'' (2008) balanced analysis by scholars; compares Limbaugh with Fox and ''Wall Street Journal'' [http://www.amazon.com/Echo-Chamber-Limbaugh-Conservative-Establishment/dp/0195398602/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261865854&sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]

{{DEFAULTSORT: Limbaugh, Rush}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Republican Party]]
[[Category:Conservative Commentators]]
[[Category:Obama Presidency]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

Mark Levin

2011-08-09T05:44:04Z

Austenbosten: /* Quotes */ added new quote, probably his most famous trademark

[[File:Marklevin.jpg|right]]

'''Mark Reed Levin''' (born September 21, 1957) is a Constitutional lawyer, president of the the prestigious [[Landmark Legal Foundation]] in [[Washington D.C.]], a top-rated nationally syndicated [[conservative talk radio]] host and a best selling non-fiction author. Also, the former Chief of Staff for Attorney General Edwin Meese during the [[Reagan Administration]]. Mark has been a frequent guest and substitute host on The Sean Hannity Show, and has also been an advisor to [[Rush Limbaugh]], who frequently refers to him on the air with the nickname "F. Lee Levin." A reference to the famous defense attorney F. Lee Bailey. He is perhaps more well-known for his nickname, 'The Great One,' coined by his friend [[Sean Hannity]]. He is a believer in spreading the conservative message and wants the citizens to take an active political role in society.

==Career and honors==
Beginning in 1981, Mark R. Levin served as advisor to several members of President Ronald Reagan's Cabinet, eventually becoming Associate Director of Presidential Personnel and ultimately Chief of Staff to Attorney General Edwin Meese; Levin also served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Elementary and Secondary Education at the U.S. Department of Education, and Deputy Solicitor of the U.S. Department of the Interior. He has practiced law in the private sector, and is president of the Landmark Legal Foundation in Leesburg, Virginia. He holds a B.A. from Temple University, where he graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude, as well as a J.D. from the Temple University Beasley School of Law.

In 2001, the American Conservative Union named Levin the recipient of the prestigious Ronald Reagan Award.

==Radio Host==
Levin's first radio job was a Sunday afternoon show on WABC networks in 2002. In 2003, The Mark Levin Show was broadcast from the competitive 6:00 p.m. (EST) time slot, Monday through Friday. The show is distributed to over 150 stations and satellite radio by Citadel Media on ABC Radio Networks. His ever growing audience is top-rated on the AM frequency with over 5.5 million average listeners.

==Author==
Levin's published the book ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' which discusses how [[activist judges]] are [[Judicial activism|legislating from the bench]]. This book was released in 2005 and became a best-seller. In 2007, he published a non-political book '' "Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish," ''that dealt with the adoption of his dog from a humane society. His next book would be an instant success,'' "[[Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto.]]" ''The book opened to 13 of 14 weeks as the No.1 best seller on the New York Times list. A review from Amazon.com says, '' "Levin lays out how conservatives can counter the [[liberal]] corrosion that has filtered into every timely issue affecting our daily lives, from the economy to health care, global warming, immigration, and more -- and illustrates how change, as seen through the conservative lens, is always prudent, and always an enhancement to individual freedom." '' His book is endorsed by fellow conservative talk radio host [[Rush Limbaugh]]. Levin said that his book is so successful without any help of the [[mainstream media]] outlets, which not even a single network has done a review. More than 1 million copies have been sold.

==Television & Internet==
Levin makes regular appearances with [[Hannity]] on [[Fox News]]. Levin is also a contributing editor for National Review Online. Also, Levin has social networking pages on [[Twitter]] and [[Facebook]].

==The Mark Levin Lexicon==
Levin holds disdain for the [[mainstream media]] and the politicians who pander to them. He often likes to refer to them in a derogatory and humorous way. It is Levin's style that distinguishes himself from other radio personalities.

*[[New York Times]] = New York Slimes, [[Washington Post]] = Washington Compost, [[Associated Press]] = Associated Depressed, [[Huffington Post]] = Huffington Puffington Compost
*[[ABC News]] = ABC Snooze, [[CBS News]] = CBS Snooze, [[MSNBC]] = MSLSD
*[[Face the Nation]] = Deface the Nation
*[[Meet the Press]] = Meet the Depressed
*Morning Joe = Morning Schmo
*Countdown, with [[Keith Olbermann]] = Countdown to No Ratings, with Keith Overbite
*Hardball with [[Chris Matthews]] = Screwball on Screwball, Chris "I'll have another drink" Matthews
*[[Bill O'Reilly]] = The Non-Factor
*[[Rachel Maddow]] = Rachel Madcow
*[[Glenn Beck]] = The Backbencher with Tourettes
*[[Tom Brokaw]] = Tom Broke-jaw
*[[Tim Russert]] = Mr. Potatohead
*Cris Collinsworth = Cris Collinsworthless
*[[David Letterman]] = David Letterdork, The Buck-Toothed Moron
*[[MediaMatters]] = The criminal operation known as Media Matters, MediaDoesn'tMatters
*[[American Civil Liberties Union]] = American Criminal Liberties Union
*[[National Organization for Women]] = National Organization for Women Who Look Like Men, National Organization for Really Ugly Women
*[[Chuck Schumer]] = Chucky Schmucky Schumer
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Stretch Pelosi
*[[Barbara Boxer]] = The Dwarf Senator
*[[Dick Durbin]] = "Little Dick" Durbin
*[[Howard Dean]] = Dr. Demento Dean
*[[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] = Hillary Rotten Clinton, Her Thighness
*[[Bill Clinton]] = BJ Bill Jefferson Clinton
*[[Ted Kennedy]] = The Cape Cod Orca, FatTed
*[[Joe Biden]] = The Dumbest Man in the Senate, Plugs Biden
*[[John Kerry]] = John "D-Student" Kerry
*[[John McCain]] = John McLame
*[[John Murtha]] = Lardass
*[[John Dingell]] = John Dingleberry
*[[Harry Reid]] = Harry "The Body Odor" Reid
*[[Lindsey Graham]] = Goober, Lindsey Grahamnesty
*[[Lincoln Chafee]] = Lincoln Chafing
*[[Dianne Feinstein]] = Dianne Frankenfeinstein
*[[Mary Landrieu]] = Mary Landfill
*[[Barney Frank]] = Barney's Frank
*[[Kathleen Sebelius]] = Kathleen Silly-us
*[[Jim Webb]] = Jim Melonhead Webb
*[[Arnold Schwarzenegger]] = The Jerkinator, a moron in two languages
*[[Rahm Emanuel]] = Al Capone
*[[Barack Hussein Obama]] = Barack Milhous Nobama, Barack America
*[[Al Franken]] = The Spiteful Troll
*[[Henry Waxman]] = The Crypt Keeper
*[[Olympia Snowe]] = Olympia Snowe-job
*[[Arlen Specter]] = Arlen Spectacle
*[[Colin Powell]] = Colon Polyp
*[[Ron Paul]] = RuPaul
*[[Jesse Jackson]] = Jesse Jerkson
*[[Al Sharpton]] = Al "Not So" Sharpton
*[[Jeremiah Wright]] = The Wrong Reverend Wright
*[[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] = Yabba-Dabba-Doo
*[[Harry Belafonte]] = Harry BelaCommie
*[[Oprah Winfrey]] = Oprah Windbag
*[[Matt Damon]] = Matt Demon
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben AFLAC
*[[George Clooney]] = George Looney
*[[Michael Savage]] = Weiner Nation
*[[Don Imus]] = I'm-a-Wuss in the Morning
*[[Jon Stewart]] = Jon Stewart AKA John Leibowitz AKA Jon Stewart
*[[Steven Colbert]] = Steven Cole-BERT
*Moderate Republicans = RePubicans, RePubics
*[[EPA]] = Soviet Protection Agency
*[[Michael Bloomberg]] = Michael Bloomturd, the man that opposes salt on your food and on your streets
*[[Mike Huckabee]] = Hucka-a-Phoney
*[[Donald Trump]] = Donald Chump
*[[Steny Hoyer]] = Stimpy Hoyer
*[[Russ Feingold]] = Foolsgold
*[[Chris Wallace]] = The Flake
*[[Chuck Hagel]] = Schmagel
*[[Bill Maher]] = Short, stupid, white-comedian guy
*[[Charles Krauthammer]] = Charles Krautheimer

==Quotes==

* Liberalism is mind-boggling and stupid. <ref>July 7, 2011 broadcast</ref>

* Speaking of [[Barack Hussein Obama]], "You cannot be a [[statist]] and a believer in the [[Declaration of Independence]]."

* Speaking of Congressional liberals, "You are some of the biggest frauds on the face of the Earth. Liberalism is lying. Sorry, it's true."

* From his August 4th, 2009 radio program, ''"We now have the [[liberal playbook]] and we know what they are doing, and we are using it against them. Unlike the Democrats though, we aren't out to destroy our society, we are out to save it."''

* "The Congressional Switchboard number is easy to remember, 1-877-SOB-U-SOB, I kid you not." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# 03/18 The Mark Levin Show]</ref>

* "[[Obama]] is a liar. Those who carry water for him like [[Pelosi]], Reid, and the [[Mainstream media | hacks on TV]] are liars too, because they knowingly repeat falsehoods." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com Mark Levin Show 3/30/10]</ref>

* Get off my phone you big dope!

== See also ==
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Landmark Legal Foundation]]

== Books ==
* ''Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416562850
* ''Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416559132
* ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1596980095
[[File:Rescuesprite.gif]]

==References==
<references/>

==External Links==
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com Official website]
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930 Free archive of past shows]
*[http://www.landmarklegal.org Landmark Legal Foundation]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Levin, Mark}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:Authors]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

United States presidential election, 2012

2011-08-08T21:52:58Z

Austenbosten: Added new Pro for Ron Paul

The '''Presidential Election 2012''' is on Tuesday, November 6, when the [[United States]] elects a president. [[Obama]], with his [[Barack Obama approval ratings|declining popularity]], is unlikely to win reelection unless he can carry [[Florida]], which he only narrowly won last time. [[Mitt Romney]] will likely win the [[New Hampshire]] primary, but if another candidate wins [[Iowa]] and [[South Carolina]],<ref>The order of the early primaries is not yet finally determined as of the end of 2010. For estimated dates, see http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P12/events.phtml?s=c</ref> then that candidate could win the [[Republican]] nomination.

For the Republican nomination, [[Mitt Romney]] is positioning himself on the liberal side while [[Michele Bachmann]] has attracted [[conservative]] support. [[Newt Gingrich]] and [[Tim Pawlenty]] will compete for endorsement by [[neoconservatives]] and also [[pro-life]] groups; [[Ron Paul]] has a solid base of about 10% and his ideas are being adopted by other candidates. Additional candidates are possible.
__NOTOC__
== Ranking of Potential Republican Candidates by Likelihood of Winning Nomination ==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Candidate
!Pros
!Cons
!Trending ...
|-
|[[Mitt Romney]]
|First runner-up in 2008, business experience, Republican governor of a Democratic state, cut taxes and the deficit, prodigious fundraiser and tireless campaigner, polling at 40% in the key early primary state of [[New Hampshire]], credited for helping [[Scott Brown]] win an upset victory for the seat long held by [[Ted Kennedy]]. Likely to be endorsed by [[Chris Christie]], [[Trent Lott]], [[Rick Santorum]], [[Marsha Blackburn]], [[Jim Talent]], etc. Only 26% of voters said they would '''''never''''' vote for him, which is the lowest negative of any major Republican candidate.<ref name="Quinnipiac">http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1595</ref>
|Refuses to sign the same [[pro-life]] pledge that all other major [[Republican]] candidates signed;<ref>http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57256.html</ref> continues to believe in [[liberal]] propaganda claiming [[global warming]]; Romney once supported [[abortion]] and [[civil unions]], criticized by the [[Tea Party Express]] chairwoman and others due to his [[ObamaCare]]-like health plan in [[Massachusetts]], which featured "the mandate" and taxpayer-funded abortion; struggles in Iowa and won only 15% in the South Carolina primary in 2008.
|Doubts are growing that someone as weak as Romney on pro-life can win the nomination. He is losing ground despite winning the first debate, and finished only 5th in the straw poll at the Republican Leadership Conference; disappointed pro-lifers by failing to take a pro-life pledge
|-
|[[Michele Bachmann]]
|A [[movement conservative]] who "knocked the ball out of the park" with her nationally televised response to Obama's [[State of the Union]] address in January 2011, Bachmann is increasingly popular with the [[Tea Party movement]]; she is a strong fundraiser and won a stunning 52-40% landslide in 2010 in a liberal-leaning district in [[Minnesota]]. Did very well at [[CPAC]] in Feb. 2011. Bachmann's beliefs are similar to [[Ron Paul]]'s, but she is more of a conservative than libertarian, and is trying to appeal to Ron Paul's fanbase<ref>http://www.lewrockwell.com/politicaltheatre/2011/06/dont-read-that-dangerous-mises/</ref>, thus a Bachmann candidacy could unite Tea Party conservatives.
|As with [[Ronald Reagan]], [[liberal bias]] is at its worst against her; has never won statewide office; [[Ron Paul]] did not support her for a House leadership position and did not join her [[Tea Party]] caucus.
|Did extremely well in the first debate; jumped to #1 in Zogby poll of primary voters
|-
|[[Jeb Bush]]
|The declining economy means the opportunity for Jeb to win is now, not in 2016 when another Republican would be the incumbent; Jeb is sure to win Florida and Obama cannot win reelection if the Republican wins Florida; [[George W. Bush]]'s book sold far better than expectations, making the name an asset again; Jeb could unite the Republican Party with a late candidacy; Jeb is more conservative than his brother [[George W. Bush]]; Jeb has already criticized Palin as a rival candidate might;<ref>In a Newsmax interview in February 2010, Jeb criticized Palin by saying, "my belief is in 2010 and 2012, public leaders need to have intellectual curiosity." [http://www.newser.com/story/81720/jeb-bush-sarah-palin-not-intellectual-enough.html]</ref> Jeb published an editorial on Jan. 3, 2011 taking credit for saving Florida [[public schools]] with vouchers.<ref>http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/jan/03/jeb-bush/jeb-bush-touts-education-gains-wall-street-journal/</ref>
|Has polled unusually poorly (54-34%) against [[Barack Obama]];<ref>http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/14/obama-would-beat-jeb-bush-big-says-poll/</ref> Jeb says he does not intend to run in 2012, when he could still be tagged with negatives via George; not liked by many Tea Partiers; might wait to run when Hillary runs.
|Trending higher with unemployment increasing to 9.2% on July 8th: it is more likely a Republican will win in 2012, and Jeb will not want to pass up that opportunity and then wait until 2020, when he's old
|-
|[[Ron Paul]]
|Won the [[CPAC]] poll, terrific on economic issues, is strong in national polls, can raise the money needed to win; people may look to an anti-war Republican; appeals to many social liberals.
|Voted twice to repeal [[DADT]], which the vast majority of Republican primary voters support; opposed Bachmann for a leadership position; his age (76 in 2012) will be used against him; has never won statewide office; his views on the war on drugs and the military also alienates many Republicans.
|Improving as Obama's support is lowest when Paul is his opponent; Paul is gaining ground as economy crumbles.
|-
|[[Rick Perry]]
|Ranking improved on June 9 because Newt's campaign leadership quit; Perry is a conservative-talking governor who has run [[Texas]] for a decade (since [[George W. Bush]] became president); crushed [[RINO]] [[Kay Bailey Hutchison]] in the 2010 primary and then won a landslide in the general election against a popular opponent, carrying others to victory on his strong coattails; has a stellar jobs record in his State and which he can contrast with liberal-run states like [[California]], [[Nevada]], [[Illinois]], and [[New York]]
|More conservative in his rhetoric than his policies; endorsed [[RINO]] [[Rudy Giuliani]] in 2008; tried to force all schoolgirls to receive the [[HPV vaccine]]; raised business taxes while governor; supports exceptions for allowing [[abortion]]; and responded to a reporter's question on Dec. 24, 2010 that he's definitely not running. ''Could simply block [[Mitt Romney]] from winning the nomination, without winning it himself''.
|Gaining due to weakness of other candidates in stopping [[gay marriage]], which becomes a major issue due to [[New York]]'s enactment
|-
|[[Newt Gingrich]]
|Articulate, credited with 1994 landslide, balanced the federal budget in the Clinton era, leader in fundraising, likely to obtain endorsement of older "right to life" groups against Mitt;<ref name="April%252525202010%25252520Fundraising">http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2010/04/19/sarah-palin-lags-in-2012-fundraising-primary.html</ref> has one-sided promotion by the [[Fox News Channel]] and the [[WSJ]], who will likely criticize his opponent [[Mitt Romney]]; Gingrich's record of passing [[conservative]] legislation as [[Speaker of the House]] is remarkably strong, including welfare reform, [[DOMA]], the [[Solomon Amendment]], and even [[term limits]]. He also had the courage to shut down the government.
|Fading further, unable to gain much support; lost ground when his entire campaign staff resigned en masse on June 9th; Gingrich has previously endorsed [[liberal]] ideas like "[[cap-and-trade]]" ([[global warming]] hoax) and a [[Con Con]]; resigned as Speaker rather than follow through with the impeachment of [[Bill Clinton]]; divorced twice and married three times, most recently to a women 23 years younger than he; has never won statewide office; Sarah Palin is suggesting that she may not pull out and this would prevent Newt from defeating Mitt. Since 9/11, Newt has come to adopt more big-government and pro-regulatory [[neoconservative]] views, unlike the push for limited-government and [[deregulation]] he spearheaded during the 1990s.
|Losing ground as his senior staff jumps ship
|-
|[[Rand Paul]]
|Could be the next [[Ronald Reagan]]; is the heir-apparent to massive support for [[Ron Paul]]; won the [[U.S. Senate]] seat by a 56-44% landslide in 2010, despite an intense effort by [[liberals]] to smear and defeat him; is 100% [[pro-life]]. Failure of Congress to cut spending enhances likelihood that voters will turn to someone strong on reducing government. Could inherit the support for his father, who could hand off the campaign to Rand.
|Rand, immensely popular after his landslide victory for Senate, will not run for president unless his dad drops his own campaign for the same office. Rand could first campaign for his dad and then become the candidate if voters think he has a better opportunity to win, but time is running out for Rand to assert himself as the candidate in 2012.
|Backup if voters think his dad shouldn't run
|-
|[[Tim Pawlenty]]
|Young; popular in his home state of [[Minnesota]] (but never won with more than 50% of the vote); benefits from exodus of the leadership from Newt's campaign on June 9th.
|Still not well known outside of Minnesota; signed $893 million in meddlesome fees/taxes including a "health fee" for cigarette smokers (which was ruled unconstitutional), a harvest fee for farmers, a 9-1-1 fee on all telephone lines, a fee for traditional marriage, and large increase in parking fees;<ref>[http://tinyurl.com/3k4p8jf ''Duluth News Tribune'': Fees soar as state taxes hold steady] (2006)</ref> supported the liberal [[cap and trade]]; accepted stimulus funds after arguing against them; lacks a socially conservative base or any appeal that would attract support away from the front-runners; arranged a meeting with a liberal medical society in 2003 in order to cave into the pro-[[abortion]] side by downplaying medical harm caused by abortion,<ref>http://www.lifenews.com/2003/12/30/state-281/</ref> despite hard-fought passage of the Woman's Right to Know Act mandating disclosure; an ex-Catholic and that may not play well with Catholic swing voters. Pawlenty may be a [[stalking horse]] for Romney.
|Losing after a perception of underachieving in the first debate June 13, attracting less support than Michele Bachmann
|-
|[[Sarah Palin]]
|Empathetic, attracts crowds, personally [[pro-life]], fiscal conservative, popular, track record of supporting upset victories in primaries; has a popular television series and book tour that emphasizes the grassroots rather than the "inside the Beltway" mentality.
|It's difficult to take seriously someone who relies so heavily on [[Facebook]]; even [[liberal]] [[Hollywood]] preferred ''The King's Speech'' at the [[Oscars]]. Her taxation policies were somewhat liberal.<ref>http://community.adn.com/node/112712</ref> Appointed a former [[Planned Parenthood]] board member to the [[Alaska]] Supreme Court and inexplicably resigned early as governor; lags in fundraising despite publicity,<ref name="April%252525202010%25252520Fundraising"/> came in a disappointing fifth in the [[Values Voter Summit]] in September 2010 and fared badly at [[CPAC]]. Several of her prominent 2010 candidates (Ken Buck, Joe Miller, Christine O'Donnell) struck out on Nov. 2nd, and many Republicans from [[George W. Bush]] to [[Peggy Noonan]] have been critical of her running for president.<ref>http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Election-2010/Vox-News/2010/1106/Republican-establishment-takes-on-Sarah-Palin</ref> 58% of American voters in a May poll said they would '''''never''''' vote for her.<ref name="Quinnipiac"/>. Frequently mocked and subjected to personal attacks from the [[liberal media]].
|Disappearing below the memoirs of her infamous daughter
|-
|[[Chris Christie]]
|Leads [[Barack Obama]] in Zogby's polling (January 2011), takes on the [[public school]] teachers' unions and is a fiscal reformer who puts liberals in their place, has an unscripted style and appearance that is a refreshing alternative to the Teleprompter President.
|Significantly overweight, Picked a [[pro-abortion]] running mate when he ran for governor, and has little experience with national issues; repeatedly says he is not running; campaigned for [[RINO]] [[Mike Castle]] in [[Delaware]] who was then defeated; neither added [[New Jersey]] to one of the lawsuits against [[ObamaCare]] nor joined an [[amicus brief]] against it; ''will probably support [[Mitt Romney]]''.
|Attaining budget cuts, particularly to [[Planned Parenthood]], Christie has become the leading contender for Vice President
|-
|[[Herman Cain]]
|Former Godfathers Pizza CEO, conservative radio host, Tea Party favorite, tremendous speaker, triumphed over a health problem, and apparently is running. <ref>[http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/06/herman-cain-2012-exploratory-committee-could-come-soon/ Herman Cain: 2012 exploratory committee could come soon, DailyCaller, December 6, 2010]</ref>
|Not well known outside the conservative sphere of influence.
|Maintaining his ranking
|-
|[[Marco Rubio]]
|A [[movement conservative]] who could unite the Party, he is the most charismatic speaker in politics today; in the general election he would pull [[Florida]] and many Hispanic voters away from the Democrats. Both of his parents were Cuban exiles seeking asylum in the U.S. at the time of his birth in Miami, making him an inspiring, uniquely American success story.
|Could face the liberal [[double standard]] on two fronts: 1) what's OK for Obama (e.g., inexperience) is somehow not OK for a [[conservative]]. 2) Liberals who have been deriding the strict definition of "natural born citizen" which some conservatives have been applying to Obama might also turn around and use the same logic with Rubio, claiming that his non-citizen parents invalidate his natural-born status. Some Republican voters may think he's really running to be selected as Vice President.
|Probably running for VP
|-
|[[Mike Huckabee]]
|Pro-life in rhetoric, pro-Second Amendment and pro-Bible; strong in polling, particularly among evangelicals
|Announced on May 14th that he's not running; was stuck at 20-30% without any way to gain broader support needed to win; could be a [[stalking horse]] for Newt; also supporter of big government, as governor raised taxes and increased state spending, released man who later killed officers; disliked by [[CPAC]]-types and by [[Club for Growth]]; might decide to sit this one out;<ref>CBS: [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20044329-503544.html Signs mount that Huckabee won't enter 2012 race]</ref> supported the cave-in by the Republican leadership to continue funding [[Planned Parenthood]] (the nation's largest [[abortion]] provider) as part of the budget deal in April 2011. Has ruled himself out of contention.<ref>http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2011-05-15-republican-huckabee-president_n.htm</ref>
|Losing ground and relevancy
|-
|[[Donald Trump]]
|Tied for number 1 in [[Gallup Poll]];<ref>As of April 22, 2011.</ref> forced Obama's to take seriously voters' concerns over his birth certificate, and is also willing to criticize liberal media; has business savvy and resources as a billionaire; is well-known.<ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/05/trump-seriously-considering-presidential-bid/?test=latestnews Trump 'Seriously Considering' 2012 Presidential Bid, FOXNews, October 5, 2010]</ref> His unscripted, abrasive and arrogant style may be just what voters want. Not a career politician helps his cause.
|Said he's not running.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/16/trump-declines-run-president/</ref> Criticized for his ego and has never held elected office. Needs to explain his previous support of liberal policies such as socialized medicine,<ref>http://www.slate.com/id/2291263/</ref> and is starting to look one-dimensional. A reliable poll (Quinnipiac) found that 58% of voters said they would '''''never''''' vote for Trump.<ref name="Quinnipiac"/>
|Declining in support
|-
|[[Thad McCotter]]
|Congressman from Michigan who is [[conservative]] and being promoted by [[Fox News]], and does not need to read from a [[teleprompter]] to give a speech.
|''Thad who?'' Not enough people know who he is yet. Twice this year voted against ending the preference for union labor in government construction projects. Could be seeking name recognition rather than the Republican nomination.<ref>http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/watercooler/index.php </ref>
|Increasing in support
|-
|[[Rick Santorum]]
|Outspoken supporter of conservative values as a senator, well-received by Iowan evangelicals at campaign-like event in March 2010
|His all-out support of [[RINO]] and now-Democrat [[Arlen Specter]] prevented [[Pat Toomey]] from defeating him in 2002, and Santorum endorsed Romney for President in 2008; could simply be a [[stalking horse]] for Romney
|Stuck at only a few percent in the polls, but did well in the first debate
|-
|[[Allen West]]
|'America First' conservative patriot, Lt. Col West knows leadership from experience. He won the Florida [[U.S. House of Representatives]] seat in the [[2010 Midterm Elections]], and kept a high profile ever since. Sports a crew cut, rises above petty [[inside the Beltway]] bickering, and carries a camouflage bag rather than a briefcase
|New to national politics, not well known and maybe a future presidential candidate beyond 2012.
|A terrific congressman
|-
|[[Jim DeMint]]
|Strong support by social conservatives, libertarians,<ref>Jim Demint has the best favorable-unfavorable rating of anyone at CPAC 2010.</ref> Tea Party, and evangelicals; a tenacious advocate willing to criticize Obama
|Stated at a conservative conference in July 2010 that he is not running for president, but after [[Mike Pence]] pulled out in Jan. 2011 Jim DeMint is showing interest again, before announcing again in late March that he is not running; as a Southern conservative, he would need to work hard to gain support in Iowa and New Hampshire, the key early primary states<ref>http://politics.theatlantic.com/2010/02/the_2012_dark_horse_is.php</ref>
|Definitely not running now
|-
|[[Ken Cuccinelli]]
|Has won statewide office. Leader in challenging [[ObamaCare]], advancing [[pro-life]] principles, and opposing the [[global warming]] hoax, including investigating Liberal [[University of Virginia]]'s involvement in the [[Climategate]] scandal. Wants to stop the homosexual agenda prevalent at the University of Virginia and other Virginia universities.
|Only 42 years old, he'll probably become governor of Virginia before running for president. Not as frequent a speaker at Tea Party events as others, such as Steve King and Michele Bachmann. Also, Cuccinelli may be more influential on domestic policy in his current position than a president is.
|Busy achieving good things in his current job
|-
|[[Bobby Jindal]]
|Conservative Governor of [[Louisiana]], strong critic of [[Obama]]'s handling of the [[Gulf oil spill]] in the summer of 2010
|Not well known yet; says he's not running for president.
|Made a good statement on birth certificate issue
|-
|[[Mitch Daniels]]
|Signed a law that defunds [[Planned Parenthood]], has been an effective [[Rust Belt]] governor and critic of the Obama administration, being promoted heavily by [[neoconservatives]]
|Stated in May 2011 that he's not running for president; sided with [[Democrats]] in 2011 in opposing [[right-to-work laws|right-to-work legislation]], unknown nationally, criticized when he tried to downplay significance of social issues, not telegenic, lacks a socially conservative base, and his state budget relies heavily on [[gambling]] revenue
|Losing ground since he announced he's not running
|-
|[[Steve King]]
|A conservative Iowa congressman who could win the [[Iowa caucuses]]; resonates well with independents; recommended by Bachmann<ref name="Bachmann">http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/app/blogs/politically_speaking/?p=1205</ref>
|Not well known yet; has never won statewide office.
|Likely to endorse Michele Bachmann, and stay in the House
|-
|[[Mike Pence]]
|Communicates a very strong conservative message: "a Christian, a conservative and a Republican, in that order." Won straw poll held at the [[Values Voter Summit]] in September 2010. On Nov. 3rd, gave up his House leadership position. Has since announced a run for Governor of Indiana in 2012.
|Announced on Jan. 27, 2011 that he's not running for president; previously he unsuccessfully proposed a "comprehensive" immigration plan that was widely criticized by conservatives; lacks legislative achievements; not well-known and has never won statewide office; either he or Huckabee could become a stalking horse for Newt Gingrich with respect to evangelical voters in Iowa
|Focusing on the Indiana governorship
|-
|[[Todd Akin]]
|A [[movement conservative]] from Missouri, which he serves as a congressman
|Running to win a [[U.S. Senate]] seat from a [[liberal]] instead
|Gaining in ability to defeat an incumbent liberal senator
|-
|[[Bob McDonnell]]
|Won landslide election as [[Virginia]] governor; has Obama's height
|Not widely known yet, but gave Republican response to State of the Union; seemed more conservative as a candidate than as governor
|Falling into obscurity
|-
|[[Gary Johnson]]
|Former [[libertarian]] two-term governor of [[New Mexico]], he has been recommended by [[Ron Paul]] if Dr. Paul does not run for president; Johnson is a strong advocate of less government.
|Like other libertarians but unlike most Republicans, Johnson favors legalizing marijuana, expanding legal [[immigration]] and allowing same-sex unions. Given the likelihood that Ron Paul will run, there is very little potential support for Gary Johnson in this election cycle.
|Cannot get much support with Ron Paul in the same race
|-
|[[Rudy Giuliani]]
|Widely respected for his post-9/11 leadership in New York City
|Struck out completely as a candidate in 2008; very weak on important social issues; cross-dressing for comedic purposes when it suited him
|A throwback to an era and issues that matter less now
|-
|[[Dick Cheney]]
|Prominent and consistent opposition to Obama
|Of dubious health; has explicitly disavowed interest in running
|Not running
|-
|[[John Bolton]]
|Expert on foreign policy and national security issues <ref>[http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9I4TTT82&show_article=1 POLITICAL INSIDER: John Bolton weighs a WH run, Breitbart, September 10, 2010]</ref>
|Polarizing figure that Democrats refused to appoint to permanent UN position
|
|-
|[[Jon Huntsman, Jr.]]
|Has foreign policy and executive experience. Appealing to moderates, although this is because he holds numerous liberal stances.
|Worked in the Obama administration; Criticized the [[economic stimulus package]] as not being big enough, favors Comprehensive Immigration Reform, supports civil unions, and is a believer in man-made global warming; could simply be a [[Utah]] decoy used by [[Team Newt]] to siphon support from [[Mitt Romney]]
|Not getting much support
|-
|[[Fred Thompson]]
|Former Republican Senator from [[Tennessee]], former presidential candidate, has a loyal following
|Hollywood type, sided with McCain in campaign finance laws that the Supreme Court overturned.
|
|-
|[[Scott Brown]]
|Proven ability to appeal to moderate voters even in a blue state
|Inexperience; already voting with the Democrats in the Senate; voted to repeal [[DADT]]
|
|-
|[[Haley Barbour]]
|Rose in ranking based on the victory of his choice as the new [[RNC]] chairman;<ref>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/14/barbour-defeats-boehner-proxy-battle-control-rnc-s/</ref> has a [[conservative]] record as governor of [[Mississippi]]; was a consummate lobbyist and could raise many tens of millions for a campaign.
|Announced in late April 2011 that he is not running; also, rarely seen at conservative conferences, and a Republican from the [[Deep South]] may have trouble attracting independent voters.
|
|-
|[[John Thune]]
|Defeated [[Tom Daschle]], relatively conservative voting record for a senator; also taller than Obama, and enjoys broad support
|Announced on Feb. 22, 2011 that he's not running; may lack an essential "fire in the belly";<ref>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/eye-on-2012/assessing-john-thunes-2012-cha.html?referrer=emaillink</ref> voted for TARP financial bailout<ref>http://hoghouseblog.com/2009/09/01/thune-wants-to-end-bailout-he-voted-for/</ref> and McCain-Feingold campaign finance; no-show at some conservative events; hasn't effectively criticized Obama; could simply become a stalking horse candidate for Gingrich
|
|-
|[[Jan Brewer]]
|In 2010, stood up to [[Hillary Clinton]] and [[Barack Obama]] on issue of [[illegal aliens]]
|Caved in to the [[liberals]] in vetoing legislation requiring a birth certificate to get on the presidential ballot for Arizona in 2012; if Brewer ever was conservative, she seems increasingly less so
|Not even conservatives support her after all her vetoes of good bills this year
|-
|[[George Pataki]]
|Well known former 3-term Gov. of New York. Has a track record of tax cuts
|[[RINO]] candidate, [[Pro-abortion]], had health issues in the past
|
|-
|[[Peter King]]
|Conservative congressman from New York that supports [[Pro-life]], energy independence, free trade, expand border fence, battles Muslim extremists in the USA by Homeland Security position.
|Fiscal conservatism lacking: voted for TARP, Cash for Clunkers, CHIP
|
|-
|}

=== The Chess Game for the Republican Party ===

====Short form====

The short form analysis is this: it probably requires a minimum of $25 million in campaign funds to win the nomination, and more if the candidate lacks a strong [[conservative]] base. Many of the candidates are probably looking to big fundraisers for support, but they are unsure of whom to back. Karl Rove, with all of his contacts from the Bush years, may be able to raise $20 million for a candidate; Haley Barbour might be able to raise even more. Fox News and its allies can raise eight figures also, as they helped reelect [[John McCain]] as senator in 2010.

The fundraising obstacle is no problem for Mitt Romney. Michelle Bachmann could reach that goal also, and benefits from having a strong conservative base too. Ron Paul could sustain his campaign as he did in 2008, relying heavily on the internet. But others lacking in a strong base will struggle unless they can obtain the support of either the Bush/Rove group, or Barbour's network, or Fox News and its allies.

====Long form====
[[File:Ronpaul.jpg|thumb|Ron Paul.]]
There are three key steps to the Republican nomination: Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. Mitt can win only one out of the three (New Hampshire), leaving an opening for another candidate to win the other two.

There are four basic components of the Republican Party. '''To win the nomination, a candidate needs to obtain the support of at least two out of four''':<ref>Traditionally commentators have referred to the three legs of the Republican Party: the values voters, the small businessmen, and the national security supporters. While that model still has support, it fails to account for recent shifts (such as the Tea Party Movement) and the impact of new media (such as FoxNews).</ref>

#social conservatives (pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-Republican Party platform)
#libertarians (lower taxes, less government, pro-business, anti-union)
#religious voters (Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, evangelicals, Mormons)
#neoconservatives (foreign intervention, "better" government)

In 2008, John McCain won the nomination by capturing the support of 1 and 4 above. Ron Paul had the support of 2. Mitt Romney enjoyed support by 2 and part of 3. Mike Huckabee had support of 1 and part of 3. The division of 3 by Romney and Huckabee caused them to block each other: Huckabee blocked Romney in Iowa, and Romney returned the favor in New Hampshire. This dynamic prevented either from winning the nomination.

In 2000, George Bush won with the support of 1 and 3. But John McCain enjoyed the support from 2 and 4 and this enabled him to win the New Hampshire and Michigan primaries, giving Bush a close contest. Some felt McCain mishandled his victory in Michigan.

In 1980, Ronald Reagan had the support of 1 and 2.

== Potential Democratic Candidates ==

McClatchy-Marist survey after the [[2010 Midterm elections]] revealed 46% of Democrats and Democratic leaning independent voters said they don't want President Obama to face a Democratic primary challenge, with 45% saying they do want such a challenge to occur. 40% of Democrats and independents who lean towards the Democrats say they prefer a more conservative challenger, while 39% say they want a challenger who is more liberal. The Marist poll says,
{{Cquote|Interestingly, a plurality of Democrats – 42 percent – would like to see a more liberal challenger while half of Democratic leaning independents – 50 percent – would like to see a more conservative one.}}
The McClatchy-Marist poll indicates that 48 percent of registered voters nationwide plan to vote against the president in 2012, with 36 percent saying they'll vote to re-elect Obama.

A Quinnipiac University survey released after the [[2010 Midterm elections]] indicated that a plurality of Americans don't think Obama deserves to be re-elected to a second term, and an Associated Press-GfK survey in the same time span indicates that 54% believe Obama should be voted out of office in 2012.<ref>http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/24/poll-democrats-split-on-2012-obama-primary-challenge/</ref> Former DNC chairman [[Ed Rendell]] suggested on [[MSNBC]], liberal anger over Obama's escalation of the war in Afghanistan could lead to a primary challenge.<ref>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20011923-503544.html</ref>

The ''[[New York Times]]'' reported many [[liberal]]s are so upset over recommendations by the Deficit Reduction Commission which President Obama himself created after the Democratic controlled Congress voted the idea down,<ref>http://peoplesworld.org/senate-defeats-deficit-commission/</ref> "if Mr. Obama were to embrace its major parts, he would invite a primary challenge in 2012."<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/12/us/politics/12fiscal.html</ref> Clarence B. Jones, who was a personal advisor, legal counsel, and close friend of Dr. [[Martin Luther King, Jr.]], has called for a primary challenge to President Obama.<ref>http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/former-mlk-advisor-calls-primary-chal</ref>

Also Obama's [[Libya#Libyan_uprising_2011|Libyan intervention]] has raised the ire of many prominent leftists who question the [[wisdom]] and [[legal]]ity of the president's actions.<ref>http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51595.html</ref>
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Candidate
!Pros
!Cons
![[MSNBC]] exposure
|-
|[[Barack Obama]]
|Ability to compromise and act in a spirit of bi-partisanship when his back's against the wall and career on the line; he's not Hillary Clinton, and he receives endearing support from the media.
|He depends on a teleprompter to speak, and has run the nation into the ground. Numerous broken<ref>http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-broken/</ref> and unfulfilled<ref>http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/stalled/</ref> campaign promises, implementation of socialist [[Obamacare]] program. Maybe uphill without help from [[ACORN]].
|Heavily promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Hillary Clinton]]
|Her criticism of Obama's massive deficits hinted at a possible run against him in 2012, and [[Ted Kennedy]] cannot interfere with her nomination this time; moreover, waiting until 2016 is unattractive because she will be 71 then. She has the highest approval ratings of any potential challenger.<ref>[http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2010/58_view_hillary_clinton_favorably 58% View Hillary Clinton Favorably], January 19, 2010. Retrieved February 15, 2010.</ref> Tested the waters with Bill backing a challenger to Obama's Colorado Senate candidate (who then lost), and by Hillary saying she won't serve a second term as Obama's Secretary of State. The chances of Hillary running and winning the nomination increase with every decline in Obama's approval ratings.
|Her [[feminism]] is not wanted and she'd lose the general election as [[Martha Coakley]] did.
|Disfavored on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Russ Feingold]]
|His dedication to [[progressive]] causes rivals that of Obama, Feingold now has the time to run since his defeat in the 2010 midterms.<ref>http://usforruss.com/?p=55</ref>
|Considered a maverick and [[reform]]er within the Democratic party.
|Disfavored on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Howard Dean]]
|Liberal media personality, politician with physicians license and a former Vermont governor. Opposed [[Obamacare]] in its current form, and declared that government cannot force people to buy health insurance.
|Progressive/Socialist/Marxist philosophy combined with numerous public gaffes. Dean ran in the 2004 presidential elections.
|Heavily promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Bernie Sanders]]
|Has pledged to "do whatever I can" to thwart compromise and thinks the President's legislative proposals are "an absolute disaster and an insult to the vast majority of the American people."
|Genuine out-of-the-closet [[Socialist]], will need to formally register as a Democrat.
|Has appeared on MSNBC.<ref>http://www.thestatecolumn.com/blog/2010/12/sen-bernie-sanders-issues-a-challenge-to-president-obama/</ref>
|-
|[[Ralph Nader]]
|An experienced [[community organizer]], Nader has not foreclosed the possibility of a challenge. [http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/132835--nader-i-am-looking-for-someone-to-challenge-obama-in-2012] Accuses Obama of betraying progressive liberals and being "a con man." [http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/09/ralph-nader-predicts-obama-will-face-democratic-primary-challeng/]
|Could mount Third Party challenge if liberals continue to lose ground in the Democratic party.
|Promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Evan Bayh]]
|Democratic base sees Bayh's retirement from the Senate as "a symbol of what's wrong with the party" as moderates are increasingly marginalized. <ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/15/evan-bayh-for-president-s_n_463202.html?view=screen Evan Bayh For President? Senator May Be Eyeing White House Run,] Ryan Grim, ''Huffington Post'', 02-15-10.</ref>
|Lags behind Obama in fundraising. [http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00003762&cycle=2010]
|Has appeared on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Dennis Kucinich]]
|Outspoken critic of Obama's escalation of the War in Afghanistan, sellout of the public option and tax cuts for the rich.
|Perennial favorite of special interests, particularly [[AFSCME]], lacks popular support and a wider appeal.
|Promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Alan Grayson]]
|Could do well to rally the progressive base in the anti-war early primary and caucus states of Iowa and New Hampshire.<ref>[http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/28/an-anti-war-challenge-to-obama-in-2012-the-case-for-alan-grayso/ "An Anti-War Challenge to Obama in 2012: The Case for Alan Grayson"], ''Politics Daily'', 12-28-2010.</ref>
|Ethical concerns over his 2010 failed reelection bid for the House.
|Heavily favored on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Mike Gravel]]
|Former Alaska Senator who attacks his own party.
|Controversial liberal that supports socialist healthcare, gay marriage and called the war in Iraq lost. <ref>[http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/09/gravel-considering-obama-primary-challenge-calls-for-new-911-investigation/ Gravel considering Obama primary challenge, calls for new 9/11 investigation, The Daily Caller, December 9, 2010]</ref>
|Has appeared on MSNBC.
|}

== Independent Candidacy by Mike Bloomberg ==

The man who spent $185 per vote to garner 51% of the vote to remain as Mayor of [[New York City]] in 2009, [[Mike Bloomberg]], is increasingly looking like an independent, self-funded candidate for president in 2012.

$185 per vote times 50 million voters equals $9.25 billion, which he can easily afford as one of the richest men in the world. The catch is that 50 million Americans are not as likely to be persuaded by self-funded campaign ads as 51% of New Yorkers were. Also, it is possible that money is becoming ''less influential'' in campaigns, not more so. The most likely result from a Bloomberg candidacy would be a split in the [[pro-abortion]], pro-[[homosexual agenda]] vote with the [[Democratic]] nominee, facilitating election of the Republican nominee.

==References==
{{reflist}}

== See also ==

*[[Gubernatorial elections, 2010]]

[[Category: United States]]
[[Category: United States Presidential Elections]]
[[Category: United States Presidential Election, 2012]]

United States presidential election, 2012

2011-08-08T21:49:57Z

Austenbosten: added new Con for Ron Paul

The '''Presidential Election 2012''' is on Tuesday, November 6, when the [[United States]] elects a president. [[Obama]], with his [[Barack Obama approval ratings|declining popularity]], is unlikely to win reelection unless he can carry [[Florida]], which he only narrowly won last time. [[Mitt Romney]] will likely win the [[New Hampshire]] primary, but if another candidate wins [[Iowa]] and [[South Carolina]],<ref>The order of the early primaries is not yet finally determined as of the end of 2010. For estimated dates, see http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P12/events.phtml?s=c</ref> then that candidate could win the [[Republican]] nomination.

For the Republican nomination, [[Mitt Romney]] is positioning himself on the liberal side while [[Michele Bachmann]] has attracted [[conservative]] support. [[Newt Gingrich]] and [[Tim Pawlenty]] will compete for endorsement by [[neoconservatives]] and also [[pro-life]] groups; [[Ron Paul]] has a solid base of about 10% and his ideas are being adopted by other candidates. Additional candidates are possible.
__NOTOC__
== Ranking of Potential Republican Candidates by Likelihood of Winning Nomination ==

{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Candidate
!Pros
!Cons
!Trending ...
|-
|[[Mitt Romney]]
|First runner-up in 2008, business experience, Republican governor of a Democratic state, cut taxes and the deficit, prodigious fundraiser and tireless campaigner, polling at 40% in the key early primary state of [[New Hampshire]], credited for helping [[Scott Brown]] win an upset victory for the seat long held by [[Ted Kennedy]]. Likely to be endorsed by [[Chris Christie]], [[Trent Lott]], [[Rick Santorum]], [[Marsha Blackburn]], [[Jim Talent]], etc. Only 26% of voters said they would '''''never''''' vote for him, which is the lowest negative of any major Republican candidate.<ref name="Quinnipiac">http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1595</ref>
|Refuses to sign the same [[pro-life]] pledge that all other major [[Republican]] candidates signed;<ref>http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57256.html</ref> continues to believe in [[liberal]] propaganda claiming [[global warming]]; Romney once supported [[abortion]] and [[civil unions]], criticized by the [[Tea Party Express]] chairwoman and others due to his [[ObamaCare]]-like health plan in [[Massachusetts]], which featured "the mandate" and taxpayer-funded abortion; struggles in Iowa and won only 15% in the South Carolina primary in 2008.
|Doubts are growing that someone as weak as Romney on pro-life can win the nomination. He is losing ground despite winning the first debate, and finished only 5th in the straw poll at the Republican Leadership Conference; disappointed pro-lifers by failing to take a pro-life pledge
|-
|[[Michele Bachmann]]
|A [[movement conservative]] who "knocked the ball out of the park" with her nationally televised response to Obama's [[State of the Union]] address in January 2011, Bachmann is increasingly popular with the [[Tea Party movement]]; she is a strong fundraiser and won a stunning 52-40% landslide in 2010 in a liberal-leaning district in [[Minnesota]]. Did very well at [[CPAC]] in Feb. 2011. Bachmann's beliefs are similar to [[Ron Paul]]'s, but she is more of a conservative than libertarian, and is trying to appeal to Ron Paul's fanbase<ref>http://www.lewrockwell.com/politicaltheatre/2011/06/dont-read-that-dangerous-mises/</ref>, thus a Bachmann candidacy could unite Tea Party conservatives.
|As with [[Ronald Reagan]], [[liberal bias]] is at its worst against her; has never won statewide office; [[Ron Paul]] did not support her for a House leadership position and did not join her [[Tea Party]] caucus.
|Did extremely well in the first debate; jumped to #1 in Zogby poll of primary voters
|-
|[[Jeb Bush]]
|The declining economy means the opportunity for Jeb to win is now, not in 2016 when another Republican would be the incumbent; Jeb is sure to win Florida and Obama cannot win reelection if the Republican wins Florida; [[George W. Bush]]'s book sold far better than expectations, making the name an asset again; Jeb could unite the Republican Party with a late candidacy; Jeb is more conservative than his brother [[George W. Bush]]; Jeb has already criticized Palin as a rival candidate might;<ref>In a Newsmax interview in February 2010, Jeb criticized Palin by saying, "my belief is in 2010 and 2012, public leaders need to have intellectual curiosity." [http://www.newser.com/story/81720/jeb-bush-sarah-palin-not-intellectual-enough.html]</ref> Jeb published an editorial on Jan. 3, 2011 taking credit for saving Florida [[public schools]] with vouchers.<ref>http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/jan/03/jeb-bush/jeb-bush-touts-education-gains-wall-street-journal/</ref>
|Has polled unusually poorly (54-34%) against [[Barack Obama]];<ref>http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/14/obama-would-beat-jeb-bush-big-says-poll/</ref> Jeb says he does not intend to run in 2012, when he could still be tagged with negatives via George; not liked by many Tea Partiers; might wait to run when Hillary runs.
|Trending higher with unemployment increasing to 9.2% on July 8th: it is more likely a Republican will win in 2012, and Jeb will not want to pass up that opportunity and then wait until 2020, when he's old
|-
|[[Ron Paul]]
|Won the [[CPAC]] poll, terrific on economic issues, is strong in national polls, can raise the money needed to win; people may look to an anti-war Republican
|Voted twice to repeal [[DADT]], which the vast majority of Republican primary voters support; opposed Bachmann for a leadership position; his age (76 in 2012) will be used against him; has never won statewide office; his views on the war on drugs and the military also alienates many Republicans.
|Improving as Obama's support is lowest when Paul is his opponent; Paul is gaining ground as economy crumbles
|-
|[[Rick Perry]]
|Ranking improved on June 9 because Newt's campaign leadership quit; Perry is a conservative-talking governor who has run [[Texas]] for a decade (since [[George W. Bush]] became president); crushed [[RINO]] [[Kay Bailey Hutchison]] in the 2010 primary and then won a landslide in the general election against a popular opponent, carrying others to victory on his strong coattails; has a stellar jobs record in his State and which he can contrast with liberal-run states like [[California]], [[Nevada]], [[Illinois]], and [[New York]]
|More conservative in his rhetoric than his policies; endorsed [[RINO]] [[Rudy Giuliani]] in 2008; tried to force all schoolgirls to receive the [[HPV vaccine]]; raised business taxes while governor; supports exceptions for allowing [[abortion]]; and responded to a reporter's question on Dec. 24, 2010 that he's definitely not running. ''Could simply block [[Mitt Romney]] from winning the nomination, without winning it himself''.
|Gaining due to weakness of other candidates in stopping [[gay marriage]], which becomes a major issue due to [[New York]]'s enactment
|-
|[[Newt Gingrich]]
|Articulate, credited with 1994 landslide, balanced the federal budget in the Clinton era, leader in fundraising, likely to obtain endorsement of older "right to life" groups against Mitt;<ref name="April%252525202010%25252520Fundraising">http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2010/04/19/sarah-palin-lags-in-2012-fundraising-primary.html</ref> has one-sided promotion by the [[Fox News Channel]] and the [[WSJ]], who will likely criticize his opponent [[Mitt Romney]]; Gingrich's record of passing [[conservative]] legislation as [[Speaker of the House]] is remarkably strong, including welfare reform, [[DOMA]], the [[Solomon Amendment]], and even [[term limits]]. He also had the courage to shut down the government.
|Fading further, unable to gain much support; lost ground when his entire campaign staff resigned en masse on June 9th; Gingrich has previously endorsed [[liberal]] ideas like "[[cap-and-trade]]" ([[global warming]] hoax) and a [[Con Con]]; resigned as Speaker rather than follow through with the impeachment of [[Bill Clinton]]; divorced twice and married three times, most recently to a women 23 years younger than he; has never won statewide office; Sarah Palin is suggesting that she may not pull out and this would prevent Newt from defeating Mitt. Since 9/11, Newt has come to adopt more big-government and pro-regulatory [[neoconservative]] views, unlike the push for limited-government and [[deregulation]] he spearheaded during the 1990s.
|Losing ground as his senior staff jumps ship
|-
|[[Rand Paul]]
|Could be the next [[Ronald Reagan]]; is the heir-apparent to massive support for [[Ron Paul]]; won the [[U.S. Senate]] seat by a 56-44% landslide in 2010, despite an intense effort by [[liberals]] to smear and defeat him; is 100% [[pro-life]]. Failure of Congress to cut spending enhances likelihood that voters will turn to someone strong on reducing government. Could inherit the support for his father, who could hand off the campaign to Rand.
|Rand, immensely popular after his landslide victory for Senate, will not run for president unless his dad drops his own campaign for the same office. Rand could first campaign for his dad and then become the candidate if voters think he has a better opportunity to win, but time is running out for Rand to assert himself as the candidate in 2012.
|Backup if voters think his dad shouldn't run
|-
|[[Tim Pawlenty]]
|Young; popular in his home state of [[Minnesota]] (but never won with more than 50% of the vote); benefits from exodus of the leadership from Newt's campaign on June 9th.
|Still not well known outside of Minnesota; signed $893 million in meddlesome fees/taxes including a "health fee" for cigarette smokers (which was ruled unconstitutional), a harvest fee for farmers, a 9-1-1 fee on all telephone lines, a fee for traditional marriage, and large increase in parking fees;<ref>[http://tinyurl.com/3k4p8jf ''Duluth News Tribune'': Fees soar as state taxes hold steady] (2006)</ref> supported the liberal [[cap and trade]]; accepted stimulus funds after arguing against them; lacks a socially conservative base or any appeal that would attract support away from the front-runners; arranged a meeting with a liberal medical society in 2003 in order to cave into the pro-[[abortion]] side by downplaying medical harm caused by abortion,<ref>http://www.lifenews.com/2003/12/30/state-281/</ref> despite hard-fought passage of the Woman's Right to Know Act mandating disclosure; an ex-Catholic and that may not play well with Catholic swing voters. Pawlenty may be a [[stalking horse]] for Romney.
|Losing after a perception of underachieving in the first debate June 13, attracting less support than Michele Bachmann
|-
|[[Sarah Palin]]
|Empathetic, attracts crowds, personally [[pro-life]], fiscal conservative, popular, track record of supporting upset victories in primaries; has a popular television series and book tour that emphasizes the grassroots rather than the "inside the Beltway" mentality.
|It's difficult to take seriously someone who relies so heavily on [[Facebook]]; even [[liberal]] [[Hollywood]] preferred ''The King's Speech'' at the [[Oscars]]. Her taxation policies were somewhat liberal.<ref>http://community.adn.com/node/112712</ref> Appointed a former [[Planned Parenthood]] board member to the [[Alaska]] Supreme Court and inexplicably resigned early as governor; lags in fundraising despite publicity,<ref name="April%252525202010%25252520Fundraising"/> came in a disappointing fifth in the [[Values Voter Summit]] in September 2010 and fared badly at [[CPAC]]. Several of her prominent 2010 candidates (Ken Buck, Joe Miller, Christine O'Donnell) struck out on Nov. 2nd, and many Republicans from [[George W. Bush]] to [[Peggy Noonan]] have been critical of her running for president.<ref>http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Election-2010/Vox-News/2010/1106/Republican-establishment-takes-on-Sarah-Palin</ref> 58% of American voters in a May poll said they would '''''never''''' vote for her.<ref name="Quinnipiac"/>. Frequently mocked and subjected to personal attacks from the [[liberal media]].
|Disappearing below the memoirs of her infamous daughter
|-
|[[Chris Christie]]
|Leads [[Barack Obama]] in Zogby's polling (January 2011), takes on the [[public school]] teachers' unions and is a fiscal reformer who puts liberals in their place, has an unscripted style and appearance that is a refreshing alternative to the Teleprompter President.
|Significantly overweight, Picked a [[pro-abortion]] running mate when he ran for governor, and has little experience with national issues; repeatedly says he is not running; campaigned for [[RINO]] [[Mike Castle]] in [[Delaware]] who was then defeated; neither added [[New Jersey]] to one of the lawsuits against [[ObamaCare]] nor joined an [[amicus brief]] against it; ''will probably support [[Mitt Romney]]''.
|Attaining budget cuts, particularly to [[Planned Parenthood]], Christie has become the leading contender for Vice President
|-
|[[Herman Cain]]
|Former Godfathers Pizza CEO, conservative radio host, Tea Party favorite, tremendous speaker, triumphed over a health problem, and apparently is running. <ref>[http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/06/herman-cain-2012-exploratory-committee-could-come-soon/ Herman Cain: 2012 exploratory committee could come soon, DailyCaller, December 6, 2010]</ref>
|Not well known outside the conservative sphere of influence.
|Maintaining his ranking
|-
|[[Marco Rubio]]
|A [[movement conservative]] who could unite the Party, he is the most charismatic speaker in politics today; in the general election he would pull [[Florida]] and many Hispanic voters away from the Democrats. Both of his parents were Cuban exiles seeking asylum in the U.S. at the time of his birth in Miami, making him an inspiring, uniquely American success story.
|Could face the liberal [[double standard]] on two fronts: 1) what's OK for Obama (e.g., inexperience) is somehow not OK for a [[conservative]]. 2) Liberals who have been deriding the strict definition of "natural born citizen" which some conservatives have been applying to Obama might also turn around and use the same logic with Rubio, claiming that his non-citizen parents invalidate his natural-born status. Some Republican voters may think he's really running to be selected as Vice President.
|Probably running for VP
|-
|[[Mike Huckabee]]
|Pro-life in rhetoric, pro-Second Amendment and pro-Bible; strong in polling, particularly among evangelicals
|Announced on May 14th that he's not running; was stuck at 20-30% without any way to gain broader support needed to win; could be a [[stalking horse]] for Newt; also supporter of big government, as governor raised taxes and increased state spending, released man who later killed officers; disliked by [[CPAC]]-types and by [[Club for Growth]]; might decide to sit this one out;<ref>CBS: [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20044329-503544.html Signs mount that Huckabee won't enter 2012 race]</ref> supported the cave-in by the Republican leadership to continue funding [[Planned Parenthood]] (the nation's largest [[abortion]] provider) as part of the budget deal in April 2011. Has ruled himself out of contention.<ref>http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2011-05-15-republican-huckabee-president_n.htm</ref>
|Losing ground and relevancy
|-
|[[Donald Trump]]
|Tied for number 1 in [[Gallup Poll]];<ref>As of April 22, 2011.</ref> forced Obama's to take seriously voters' concerns over his birth certificate, and is also willing to criticize liberal media; has business savvy and resources as a billionaire; is well-known.<ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/05/trump-seriously-considering-presidential-bid/?test=latestnews Trump 'Seriously Considering' 2012 Presidential Bid, FOXNews, October 5, 2010]</ref> His unscripted, abrasive and arrogant style may be just what voters want. Not a career politician helps his cause.
|Said he's not running.<ref>http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/16/trump-declines-run-president/</ref> Criticized for his ego and has never held elected office. Needs to explain his previous support of liberal policies such as socialized medicine,<ref>http://www.slate.com/id/2291263/</ref> and is starting to look one-dimensional. A reliable poll (Quinnipiac) found that 58% of voters said they would '''''never''''' vote for Trump.<ref name="Quinnipiac"/>
|Declining in support
|-
|[[Thad McCotter]]
|Congressman from Michigan who is [[conservative]] and being promoted by [[Fox News]], and does not need to read from a [[teleprompter]] to give a speech.
|''Thad who?'' Not enough people know who he is yet. Twice this year voted against ending the preference for union labor in government construction projects. Could be seeking name recognition rather than the Republican nomination.<ref>http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/watercooler/index.php </ref>
|Increasing in support
|-
|[[Rick Santorum]]
|Outspoken supporter of conservative values as a senator, well-received by Iowan evangelicals at campaign-like event in March 2010
|His all-out support of [[RINO]] and now-Democrat [[Arlen Specter]] prevented [[Pat Toomey]] from defeating him in 2002, and Santorum endorsed Romney for President in 2008; could simply be a [[stalking horse]] for Romney
|Stuck at only a few percent in the polls, but did well in the first debate
|-
|[[Allen West]]
|'America First' conservative patriot, Lt. Col West knows leadership from experience. He won the Florida [[U.S. House of Representatives]] seat in the [[2010 Midterm Elections]], and kept a high profile ever since. Sports a crew cut, rises above petty [[inside the Beltway]] bickering, and carries a camouflage bag rather than a briefcase
|New to national politics, not well known and maybe a future presidential candidate beyond 2012.
|A terrific congressman
|-
|[[Jim DeMint]]
|Strong support by social conservatives, libertarians,<ref>Jim Demint has the best favorable-unfavorable rating of anyone at CPAC 2010.</ref> Tea Party, and evangelicals; a tenacious advocate willing to criticize Obama
|Stated at a conservative conference in July 2010 that he is not running for president, but after [[Mike Pence]] pulled out in Jan. 2011 Jim DeMint is showing interest again, before announcing again in late March that he is not running; as a Southern conservative, he would need to work hard to gain support in Iowa and New Hampshire, the key early primary states<ref>http://politics.theatlantic.com/2010/02/the_2012_dark_horse_is.php</ref>
|Definitely not running now
|-
|[[Ken Cuccinelli]]
|Has won statewide office. Leader in challenging [[ObamaCare]], advancing [[pro-life]] principles, and opposing the [[global warming]] hoax, including investigating Liberal [[University of Virginia]]'s involvement in the [[Climategate]] scandal. Wants to stop the homosexual agenda prevalent at the University of Virginia and other Virginia universities.
|Only 42 years old, he'll probably become governor of Virginia before running for president. Not as frequent a speaker at Tea Party events as others, such as Steve King and Michele Bachmann. Also, Cuccinelli may be more influential on domestic policy in his current position than a president is.
|Busy achieving good things in his current job
|-
|[[Bobby Jindal]]
|Conservative Governor of [[Louisiana]], strong critic of [[Obama]]'s handling of the [[Gulf oil spill]] in the summer of 2010
|Not well known yet; says he's not running for president.
|Made a good statement on birth certificate issue
|-
|[[Mitch Daniels]]
|Signed a law that defunds [[Planned Parenthood]], has been an effective [[Rust Belt]] governor and critic of the Obama administration, being promoted heavily by [[neoconservatives]]
|Stated in May 2011 that he's not running for president; sided with [[Democrats]] in 2011 in opposing [[right-to-work laws|right-to-work legislation]], unknown nationally, criticized when he tried to downplay significance of social issues, not telegenic, lacks a socially conservative base, and his state budget relies heavily on [[gambling]] revenue
|Losing ground since he announced he's not running
|-
|[[Steve King]]
|A conservative Iowa congressman who could win the [[Iowa caucuses]]; resonates well with independents; recommended by Bachmann<ref name="Bachmann">http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/app/blogs/politically_speaking/?p=1205</ref>
|Not well known yet; has never won statewide office.
|Likely to endorse Michele Bachmann, and stay in the House
|-
|[[Mike Pence]]
|Communicates a very strong conservative message: "a Christian, a conservative and a Republican, in that order." Won straw poll held at the [[Values Voter Summit]] in September 2010. On Nov. 3rd, gave up his House leadership position. Has since announced a run for Governor of Indiana in 2012.
|Announced on Jan. 27, 2011 that he's not running for president; previously he unsuccessfully proposed a "comprehensive" immigration plan that was widely criticized by conservatives; lacks legislative achievements; not well-known and has never won statewide office; either he or Huckabee could become a stalking horse for Newt Gingrich with respect to evangelical voters in Iowa
|Focusing on the Indiana governorship
|-
|[[Todd Akin]]
|A [[movement conservative]] from Missouri, which he serves as a congressman
|Running to win a [[U.S. Senate]] seat from a [[liberal]] instead
|Gaining in ability to defeat an incumbent liberal senator
|-
|[[Bob McDonnell]]
|Won landslide election as [[Virginia]] governor; has Obama's height
|Not widely known yet, but gave Republican response to State of the Union; seemed more conservative as a candidate than as governor
|Falling into obscurity
|-
|[[Gary Johnson]]
|Former [[libertarian]] two-term governor of [[New Mexico]], he has been recommended by [[Ron Paul]] if Dr. Paul does not run for president; Johnson is a strong advocate of less government.
|Like other libertarians but unlike most Republicans, Johnson favors legalizing marijuana, expanding legal [[immigration]] and allowing same-sex unions. Given the likelihood that Ron Paul will run, there is very little potential support for Gary Johnson in this election cycle.
|Cannot get much support with Ron Paul in the same race
|-
|[[Rudy Giuliani]]
|Widely respected for his post-9/11 leadership in New York City
|Struck out completely as a candidate in 2008; very weak on important social issues; cross-dressing for comedic purposes when it suited him
|A throwback to an era and issues that matter less now
|-
|[[Dick Cheney]]
|Prominent and consistent opposition to Obama
|Of dubious health; has explicitly disavowed interest in running
|Not running
|-
|[[John Bolton]]
|Expert on foreign policy and national security issues <ref>[http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9I4TTT82&show_article=1 POLITICAL INSIDER: John Bolton weighs a WH run, Breitbart, September 10, 2010]</ref>
|Polarizing figure that Democrats refused to appoint to permanent UN position
|
|-
|[[Jon Huntsman, Jr.]]
|Has foreign policy and executive experience. Appealing to moderates, although this is because he holds numerous liberal stances.
|Worked in the Obama administration; Criticized the [[economic stimulus package]] as not being big enough, favors Comprehensive Immigration Reform, supports civil unions, and is a believer in man-made global warming; could simply be a [[Utah]] decoy used by [[Team Newt]] to siphon support from [[Mitt Romney]]
|Not getting much support
|-
|[[Fred Thompson]]
|Former Republican Senator from [[Tennessee]], former presidential candidate, has a loyal following
|Hollywood type, sided with McCain in campaign finance laws that the Supreme Court overturned.
|
|-
|[[Scott Brown]]
|Proven ability to appeal to moderate voters even in a blue state
|Inexperience; already voting with the Democrats in the Senate; voted to repeal [[DADT]]
|
|-
|[[Haley Barbour]]
|Rose in ranking based on the victory of his choice as the new [[RNC]] chairman;<ref>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/14/barbour-defeats-boehner-proxy-battle-control-rnc-s/</ref> has a [[conservative]] record as governor of [[Mississippi]]; was a consummate lobbyist and could raise many tens of millions for a campaign.
|Announced in late April 2011 that he is not running; also, rarely seen at conservative conferences, and a Republican from the [[Deep South]] may have trouble attracting independent voters.
|
|-
|[[John Thune]]
|Defeated [[Tom Daschle]], relatively conservative voting record for a senator; also taller than Obama, and enjoys broad support
|Announced on Feb. 22, 2011 that he's not running; may lack an essential "fire in the belly";<ref>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/eye-on-2012/assessing-john-thunes-2012-cha.html?referrer=emaillink</ref> voted for TARP financial bailout<ref>http://hoghouseblog.com/2009/09/01/thune-wants-to-end-bailout-he-voted-for/</ref> and McCain-Feingold campaign finance; no-show at some conservative events; hasn't effectively criticized Obama; could simply become a stalking horse candidate for Gingrich
|
|-
|[[Jan Brewer]]
|In 2010, stood up to [[Hillary Clinton]] and [[Barack Obama]] on issue of [[illegal aliens]]
|Caved in to the [[liberals]] in vetoing legislation requiring a birth certificate to get on the presidential ballot for Arizona in 2012; if Brewer ever was conservative, she seems increasingly less so
|Not even conservatives support her after all her vetoes of good bills this year
|-
|[[George Pataki]]
|Well known former 3-term Gov. of New York. Has a track record of tax cuts
|[[RINO]] candidate, [[Pro-abortion]], had health issues in the past
|
|-
|[[Peter King]]
|Conservative congressman from New York that supports [[Pro-life]], energy independence, free trade, expand border fence, battles Muslim extremists in the USA by Homeland Security position.
|Fiscal conservatism lacking: voted for TARP, Cash for Clunkers, CHIP
|
|-
|}

=== The Chess Game for the Republican Party ===

====Short form====

The short form analysis is this: it probably requires a minimum of $25 million in campaign funds to win the nomination, and more if the candidate lacks a strong [[conservative]] base. Many of the candidates are probably looking to big fundraisers for support, but they are unsure of whom to back. Karl Rove, with all of his contacts from the Bush years, may be able to raise $20 million for a candidate; Haley Barbour might be able to raise even more. Fox News and its allies can raise eight figures also, as they helped reelect [[John McCain]] as senator in 2010.

The fundraising obstacle is no problem for Mitt Romney. Michelle Bachmann could reach that goal also, and benefits from having a strong conservative base too. Ron Paul could sustain his campaign as he did in 2008, relying heavily on the internet. But others lacking in a strong base will struggle unless they can obtain the support of either the Bush/Rove group, or Barbour's network, or Fox News and its allies.

====Long form====
[[File:Ronpaul.jpg|thumb|Ron Paul.]]
There are three key steps to the Republican nomination: Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. Mitt can win only one out of the three (New Hampshire), leaving an opening for another candidate to win the other two.

There are four basic components of the Republican Party. '''To win the nomination, a candidate needs to obtain the support of at least two out of four''':<ref>Traditionally commentators have referred to the three legs of the Republican Party: the values voters, the small businessmen, and the national security supporters. While that model still has support, it fails to account for recent shifts (such as the Tea Party Movement) and the impact of new media (such as FoxNews).</ref>

#social conservatives (pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-Republican Party platform)
#libertarians (lower taxes, less government, pro-business, anti-union)
#religious voters (Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, evangelicals, Mormons)
#neoconservatives (foreign intervention, "better" government)

In 2008, John McCain won the nomination by capturing the support of 1 and 4 above. Ron Paul had the support of 2. Mitt Romney enjoyed support by 2 and part of 3. Mike Huckabee had support of 1 and part of 3. The division of 3 by Romney and Huckabee caused them to block each other: Huckabee blocked Romney in Iowa, and Romney returned the favor in New Hampshire. This dynamic prevented either from winning the nomination.

In 2000, George Bush won with the support of 1 and 3. But John McCain enjoyed the support from 2 and 4 and this enabled him to win the New Hampshire and Michigan primaries, giving Bush a close contest. Some felt McCain mishandled his victory in Michigan.

In 1980, Ronald Reagan had the support of 1 and 2.

== Potential Democratic Candidates ==

McClatchy-Marist survey after the [[2010 Midterm elections]] revealed 46% of Democrats and Democratic leaning independent voters said they don't want President Obama to face a Democratic primary challenge, with 45% saying they do want such a challenge to occur. 40% of Democrats and independents who lean towards the Democrats say they prefer a more conservative challenger, while 39% say they want a challenger who is more liberal. The Marist poll says,
{{Cquote|Interestingly, a plurality of Democrats – 42 percent – would like to see a more liberal challenger while half of Democratic leaning independents – 50 percent – would like to see a more conservative one.}}
The McClatchy-Marist poll indicates that 48 percent of registered voters nationwide plan to vote against the president in 2012, with 36 percent saying they'll vote to re-elect Obama.

A Quinnipiac University survey released after the [[2010 Midterm elections]] indicated that a plurality of Americans don't think Obama deserves to be re-elected to a second term, and an Associated Press-GfK survey in the same time span indicates that 54% believe Obama should be voted out of office in 2012.<ref>http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/24/poll-democrats-split-on-2012-obama-primary-challenge/</ref> Former DNC chairman [[Ed Rendell]] suggested on [[MSNBC]], liberal anger over Obama's escalation of the war in Afghanistan could lead to a primary challenge.<ref>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20011923-503544.html</ref>

The ''[[New York Times]]'' reported many [[liberal]]s are so upset over recommendations by the Deficit Reduction Commission which President Obama himself created after the Democratic controlled Congress voted the idea down,<ref>http://peoplesworld.org/senate-defeats-deficit-commission/</ref> "if Mr. Obama were to embrace its major parts, he would invite a primary challenge in 2012."<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/12/us/politics/12fiscal.html</ref> Clarence B. Jones, who was a personal advisor, legal counsel, and close friend of Dr. [[Martin Luther King, Jr.]], has called for a primary challenge to President Obama.<ref>http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/former-mlk-advisor-calls-primary-chal</ref>

Also Obama's [[Libya#Libyan_uprising_2011|Libyan intervention]] has raised the ire of many prominent leftists who question the [[wisdom]] and [[legal]]ity of the president's actions.<ref>http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51595.html</ref>
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!Candidate
!Pros
!Cons
![[MSNBC]] exposure
|-
|[[Barack Obama]]
|Ability to compromise and act in a spirit of bi-partisanship when his back's against the wall and career on the line; he's not Hillary Clinton, and he receives endearing support from the media.
|He depends on a teleprompter to speak, and has run the nation into the ground. Numerous broken<ref>http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-broken/</ref> and unfulfilled<ref>http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/stalled/</ref> campaign promises, implementation of socialist [[Obamacare]] program. Maybe uphill without help from [[ACORN]].
|Heavily promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Hillary Clinton]]
|Her criticism of Obama's massive deficits hinted at a possible run against him in 2012, and [[Ted Kennedy]] cannot interfere with her nomination this time; moreover, waiting until 2016 is unattractive because she will be 71 then. She has the highest approval ratings of any potential challenger.<ref>[http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2010/58_view_hillary_clinton_favorably 58% View Hillary Clinton Favorably], January 19, 2010. Retrieved February 15, 2010.</ref> Tested the waters with Bill backing a challenger to Obama's Colorado Senate candidate (who then lost), and by Hillary saying she won't serve a second term as Obama's Secretary of State. The chances of Hillary running and winning the nomination increase with every decline in Obama's approval ratings.
|Her [[feminism]] is not wanted and she'd lose the general election as [[Martha Coakley]] did.
|Disfavored on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Russ Feingold]]
|His dedication to [[progressive]] causes rivals that of Obama, Feingold now has the time to run since his defeat in the 2010 midterms.<ref>http://usforruss.com/?p=55</ref>
|Considered a maverick and [[reform]]er within the Democratic party.
|Disfavored on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Howard Dean]]
|Liberal media personality, politician with physicians license and a former Vermont governor. Opposed [[Obamacare]] in its current form, and declared that government cannot force people to buy health insurance.
|Progressive/Socialist/Marxist philosophy combined with numerous public gaffes. Dean ran in the 2004 presidential elections.
|Heavily promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Bernie Sanders]]
|Has pledged to "do whatever I can" to thwart compromise and thinks the President's legislative proposals are "an absolute disaster and an insult to the vast majority of the American people."
|Genuine out-of-the-closet [[Socialist]], will need to formally register as a Democrat.
|Has appeared on MSNBC.<ref>http://www.thestatecolumn.com/blog/2010/12/sen-bernie-sanders-issues-a-challenge-to-president-obama/</ref>
|-
|[[Ralph Nader]]
|An experienced [[community organizer]], Nader has not foreclosed the possibility of a challenge. [http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/132835--nader-i-am-looking-for-someone-to-challenge-obama-in-2012] Accuses Obama of betraying progressive liberals and being "a con man." [http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/09/ralph-nader-predicts-obama-will-face-democratic-primary-challeng/]
|Could mount Third Party challenge if liberals continue to lose ground in the Democratic party.
|Promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Evan Bayh]]
|Democratic base sees Bayh's retirement from the Senate as "a symbol of what's wrong with the party" as moderates are increasingly marginalized. <ref>[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/15/evan-bayh-for-president-s_n_463202.html?view=screen Evan Bayh For President? Senator May Be Eyeing White House Run,] Ryan Grim, ''Huffington Post'', 02-15-10.</ref>
|Lags behind Obama in fundraising. [http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00003762&cycle=2010]
|Has appeared on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Dennis Kucinich]]
|Outspoken critic of Obama's escalation of the War in Afghanistan, sellout of the public option and tax cuts for the rich.
|Perennial favorite of special interests, particularly [[AFSCME]], lacks popular support and a wider appeal.
|Promoted on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Alan Grayson]]
|Could do well to rally the progressive base in the anti-war early primary and caucus states of Iowa and New Hampshire.<ref>[http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/28/an-anti-war-challenge-to-obama-in-2012-the-case-for-alan-grayso/ "An Anti-War Challenge to Obama in 2012: The Case for Alan Grayson"], ''Politics Daily'', 12-28-2010.</ref>
|Ethical concerns over his 2010 failed reelection bid for the House.
|Heavily favored on MSNBC.
|-
|[[Mike Gravel]]
|Former Alaska Senator who attacks his own party.
|Controversial liberal that supports socialist healthcare, gay marriage and called the war in Iraq lost. <ref>[http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/09/gravel-considering-obama-primary-challenge-calls-for-new-911-investigation/ Gravel considering Obama primary challenge, calls for new 9/11 investigation, The Daily Caller, December 9, 2010]</ref>
|Has appeared on MSNBC.
|}

== Independent Candidacy by Mike Bloomberg ==

The man who spent $185 per vote to garner 51% of the vote to remain as Mayor of [[New York City]] in 2009, [[Mike Bloomberg]], is increasingly looking like an independent, self-funded candidate for president in 2012.

$185 per vote times 50 million voters equals $9.25 billion, which he can easily afford as one of the richest men in the world. The catch is that 50 million Americans are not as likely to be persuaded by self-funded campaign ads as 51% of New Yorkers were. Also, it is possible that money is becoming ''less influential'' in campaigns, not more so. The most likely result from a Bloomberg candidacy would be a split in the [[pro-abortion]], pro-[[homosexual agenda]] vote with the [[Democratic]] nominee, facilitating election of the Republican nominee.

==References==
{{reflist}}

== See also ==

*[[Gubernatorial elections, 2010]]

[[Category: United States]]
[[Category: United States Presidential Elections]]
[[Category: United States Presidential Election, 2012]]

Talk:Essay:Greatest Conservative Songs

2011-07-30T20:33:51Z

Austenbosten: /* Overhaul the "Greatest Conservative Songs" */

See [http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzZkNDU5MmViNzVjNzkzMDE3NzNlN2MyZjRjYTk4YjE= this]. [[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 10:04, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

: The [[neoconservative]] ''National Review'' list is 95% garbage, not [[conservative]] at all. I only found one tune on the list that should be added ours ("Stand by your man"), and National Review had it at #50.

: The contrast here with ''National Review'' illustrates the need for ''Conservapedia''. But thanks for your link.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:31, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

Oops... it seems that I added a bunch of songs from that list. Several of mine (Brick, Red Barchetta, I Can't Drive 55, Sweet Home Alabama, and Revolution 1) were on there. That's interesting, though... the NR person and I thought alike on this one. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 17:16, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

Sweet Home Alabama? I love that song (and I'm a liberal)! Revolution's great, too.--[[User:Autofire|Autofire]] 18:29, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

Sorry? Why was my entry for The Fall's Pseud Mag Ed removed? They have always been the great deflators of liberal complacency. What is going on?

: Post a link to the lyrics of the song here and we'll see. Also, please sign your entries by using the signature button in the row above the edit box. Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:16, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

Can a song possibly be just a song, rather than a political statement? - BornAgainBrit

: Uh, sure, there are songs that lack any meaning at all. "I wanna hold your hand," for example, is a pleasant jingle from your homeland. I trust we'd agree that it is not the most meaningful song in the world. That tune is fun for reminiscing.

: But surely you don't deny that many songs do have political meaning. [[Liberal]] attempts to deny political bias are familiar to us and no one here is fooled. Godspeed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:37, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

The deletion of Bob Dylan's song was not properly explained. Observing that people serve either the devil or the Lord is a conservative observation, and of course Bob Dylan was a born-again Christian who expressed his faith in song (but don't expect [[liberals]] to tell you that).--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:03, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

:I didn't mean to step on any toes, but apathy towards devil worship doesn't seem to me like a very conservative trait. Unfortunately, the verses of the songs don't give us ''any'' meaning whatsoever, so the only meaning we can glean from the song are the four lines of the chorus, three of which are essentially the same :/ [[User:Jazzman831|Jazzman831]] 14:06, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

::Paradise by the Dashboard light? I know its a song about having pre-marital sex, but the end is about how it screwed up his life.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 04:45, 23 July 2007 (EDT)

After reading this list, I've gotta ask, just how do you define a 'conservative' song?--[[User:Offeep|Offeep]] 15:27, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

: [[Conservative]] is a term that is well-understood. A "conservative song" reflects some of those values without diluting them with a [[liberal]] message.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:42, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

I can't believe Okie from Muskogie isn't on here. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 23:23, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

I know this is being nitpicky, but I don't like the message of Last Kiss because it seems to suggest a works salvation, that one gets to heaven by doing good rather than accepting Jesus. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 23:30, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

:... and on that note, let's open up a can of [[Mountain Dew]] and get ready to [[Debate:Are we saved by faith or works?]] --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 17:16, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

==Last Kiss==
Somebody just put up "Last Kiss;" actually I recall when it was a hit circa 1964 many adults, parents, teachers and ministers where horrified that a song about death was considered appropriate for young people. My my, how things had changed by 1967.... [[User:RobS|RobS]] 18:08, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

Just like 'Teen Angel,' 'Leader of the Pack,' 'Dead Man's Curve,' and 'Tell Laura I Love Her.' [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 00:35, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

==Possible Addition==

Ok, I have a suggestion, but I want some feedback before putting it on the page. I was listening to the radio today, and Another Brick in the Wall by Pink Floyd came on. I was thinking that the song talks about the way that public schools brainwash children and turn them into "bricks" in the wall that is liberal society. In a way, the song is pro-homeschooling, because it's teachers that need to leave the kids alone so that parents can instruct their children correctly. Maybe I'm reaching a bit here, but I wanted to see what you all thought. [[User:SSchultz|SSchultz]] 00:23, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

: I'm open to comments and suggestions about this, but I've never viewed the famous song "another brick in the wall" as conservative. You may be right that the song properly complains about the effect of schooling, but the song doesn't offer any conservative solution that I can see.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:10, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

::"Another Brick In The Wall" is more of a neutral song. Its part of a concept album in which the main character slowly seperates himself from society. Most Pink Floyd songs are about madness, due to their original lead singer going insane. [[User:TobyKeet|TobyKeet]] 05:32, 24 November 2010 (EST)

==Love Me, I'm a Liberal==

:I'm glad the commies were thrown out
:Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board

Hardly sounds like a Communist critique. Have you read all the lyrics of the song? [http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/liberal.html] It's twitting liberals for their supposed concern for others, which is actually sorely lacking. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 17:14, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

:That song is pure sarcasm and Ochs assumes the role of a 1960s-era (Cold War era) "liberal" to attack them from the extreme left in a sarcastic way. Read the lyrics again, he is attacking the AFL-CIO for throwing out the commies. He is saying liberals aren't far left ''enough''. It's not a conservative song, it's an extreme leftist one. [[User:Parrothead|Parrothead]] 17:22, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

So there's a song on this list about breaking the law 'I can't Drive 55,' and one about obeying the law 'I fought the law.' Which is the conservative value? And the Bobby Fuller Four's version of the latter was the superior version, BTW. [[User:Maestro|Maestro]] 10:40, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

== Are these truly conservative? ==

While I understand completely some of these songs being on here, I don't really understand the why Bob Dylan, The Beatles, or Ben Folds (Five) would be on this list. These individual songs may be able to be warped into our mindset, but if one truly looks at these, they become overwhelmingly liberal.

For example: The Beatles - Revolution
While this song does indeed talk about how "Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao" will do no good, it also talks about how war and money can't solve problems. In addition, if a child is to read tis and decide to find out more about The Beatles, they will undoubtedly find some intensely liberal themes. The same idea goes for Bob Dylan. Look at any of his other songs. At the same time, Ben Folds does exactly the same thing.

I cannot argue with the songs and parts on this list, but I wonder if this is a slippery slope?
::It's possible that many of these songs were adopted by conservatives, such as Mike Huckabee playing John Cougar Mellencamp's hits. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 14:48, 18 February 2008 (EST)

: Many of the songs here have a powerful [[conservative]] message, and demonstrate that the music industry does not have to be [[liberal]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:00, 18 February 2008 (EST)

: P.S. [[Liberals]] do say [[conservative]] things from time to time. We're listing songs here, not artists.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:01, 18 February 2008 (EST)

I would just like add that Revolution 1 was written as a reaction against the protesters against the Vietnam War who were getting violent. All Revolution is saying is for the protesters to protest, but not violently, which is still liberal, but a message than other liberal songs. However, for other Beatles songs, they range from being liberal (Why Don't We Do It in the Road?) to be being kind of conservative (Let It Be). Most however, are pretty much neutral. You usually kind Paul McCartney as being more concervative, and Lennon as liberal. [[User:TobyKeet|TobyKeet]] 05:28, 24 November 2010 (EST)

:One problem with the above analysis: Why Don't We Do It In the Road was McCartney's; Lennon was rather famously not involved at all. Personally I've always thought of it as a kind of parody of the free love movement, though apparently that wasn't McCartney's intention. [[User:Ptorquemada|Ptorquemada]] 17:25, 4 April 2011 (EDT)

== In Your Eyes ==

Okay, the song can be considered to be about God, but that alone does not make it conservative. I think Peter Gabriel himself would object to the song's inclusion in this list. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 15:23, 18 February 2008 (EST)

: Peter Gabriel can object all he likes. "In Your Eyes" appeals to conservative values, as in "a thousand churches." Do you think we should object when a liberal says something conservative???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:27, 18 February 2008 (EST)
::Religion is not conservative. Fundamentalism is, but not religion. The presence of religion in a song does not make it conservative, even as adherence to religion does not make a person conservative. Look at me, I'm a Christian, but I'm also a communist. Obviously the two are not mutually exclusive. One's personal merely interpersonally-social morals under religion might be more "conservative", in the loosest sense of the term — not conservative, simply somewhat more so — than they would be otherwise; however, that does not automatically make one politically conservative.--[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 15:50, 18 February 2008 (EST)

::: The single best predictor of how conservative someone votes is how often he attends a place of worship of God. Your argument suggesting that you are a counterexample to that correlation means nothing. See point #2 in [[liberal logic]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:04, 18 February 2008 (EST)

::::That wasn't irrelevant at all. Correlation != causation. --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 16:08, 18 February 2008 (EST)
::::Sorry, my edit summary should have been "basic statistical interpretation". --[[User:MakeTomorrow|MakeTomorrow]] 16:09, 18 February 2008 (EST)

::::: Why did you cite your counterexample, if it wasn't an example of the logical fallacy #2 in [[liberal logic]]? Do you really think a counterexample disproves causation?

==Land of Confusion==
Does Genesis' ''Land of Confusion'' belong on the list? I remember the music video portraying Ronald Reagan (in puppet form) as inept, and it parodies several conservative leaders, including Margaret Thatcher, et. al. [[User:WesleyS|WesleyS]][[User Talk:WesleyS|Hello!]] 13:58, 5 March 2009 (EST)

: It's liberal lyric of "too many people" is enough reason to bounce it from the list. Thanks for catching this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:53, 5 March 2009 (EST)

==Should Fortunate Son really be on this list?==

It's vehemently anti-war. Please correct if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's a very conservative belief. [[User:JRobbe|JRobbe]]

:I just looked the lyrics. Pretty confused stuff. I'd agree it's not conservative. Would you like to toss it from the list? Please feel free to do so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:26, 7 January 2010 (EST)

:Done. [[User:JRobbe|JRobbe]]

== Long Black Train by Josh Turner? ==

To me, this song seems like a good candidate for this list. --[[User:Dfrischknecht|Dfrischknecht]] 07:14, 22 July 2010 (EDT)

== The Decision by Ricky Van Shelton ==

I think this is another good candidate for this list. It's a song about a teenage girl who gives in to peer pressure and gets pregnant and the consequences of that action. --[[User:Dfrischknecht|Dfrischknecht]] 09:02, 22 July 2010 (EDT)

== New Agey ==

I removed the new agey phrase of "the cycle of life, death and rebirth," for the "Lightning Crashes," by Live, but feel free to discuss here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:23, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

: That wasn't meant to seem "new agey" in the least, but I do understand what you're saying. The song presents a view of life as being cyclical, as the baby is being born an old woman dies, and "The confusion that was hers belongs now to the baby down the hall." I think the lyrics really speak to the significance of life (not just at childbirth), but as a whole. I don't think the song is necessarily about the old woman being reincarnated as the newborn child, but it definitely seems to speak of the circle of life.[[User:JaneX|JaneX]] 15:56, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

:: Perhaps a rewording would work then? How about replacing "the cycle of life, death and rebirth" with "the joy of childbirth in contrast with the end of life"?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:59, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

::: I agree that a rewording would work, thank you for working with me. Perhaps we could just say that the song celebrates the significance of life from birth until death, almost in an as one door closes another opens kind of way? [[User:JaneX|JaneX]] 20:00, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

== Song idea ==

"One Man, One Woman" sung by ABBA. Indirectly a tribute to traditional marriage and monogamy.--[[User:TedM|TedM]] 12:14, 12 January 2011 (EST)

: Sounds good by the title, so how about adding it where you think it would be appropriate in the list? Thanks for your insight.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:17, 12 January 2011 (EST)

== Takin' Care of Business ==

This song by BTO is on the list for supporting "Hard work ethic", but its not. The refrain is jokingly ironic. "I love to work at nothing all day; and I've been taking care of business"

The body of the song describes a more easy going life just making music rather than waking up early, catching trains for work, etc.

I'm not saying it makes the song liberal, and not sure why its even necessary to classify songs along political lines, but it sure as heck ain't about working hard.
I'd suggest if someone wants to keep it here because its a good song, and if people can only enjoy it because it conforms to their political views, than change the reason to "Mike Huckabee performed the song" [comment by AndrewJackson]

:You left out how the song praises the self-employed, which is a very conservative, hard-working group of people.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:55, 21 March 2011 (EDT)

::Fair enough, but the praise you speak of is "If you ever get annoyed [with, based on earlier lyrics, either your traditional job or the unpleasant commute involved], look at me, I'm self-employed; I love to work at nothing all day." That could be taken as either "I made so much money as an entepreneur that I no longer need to work" or "My official job title is 'Bum'." Neither one of them really expresses admiration for "hard work" in its own right, though the former is certainly a more positive role model than the latter. I do ''like'' the song, but I'm not entirely sanguine about considering it "conservative." [[User:Ptorquemada|Ptorquemada]] 17:36, 4 April 2011 (EDT)

== Adonai My Lord ==

I'm going to delete this song from the list, as it is from the atheistic industrial metal genre. The lyrics reflect a sort of militant Christianity that does not reflect well on the religion as a whole. For example, this group has a song called "Christf---"...obviously they are not conservative. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 01:14, 23 March 2011 (EDT)

==No U2?==

Surely -- despite the band's liberal leanings -- one of U2's unashamedly Christian songs should make it in. Gloria seems the obvious choice. The chorus, you may remember, goes: "Gloria, in te domine/ Gloria, exultate/ Gloria, Gloria/ Oh Lord, loosen my lips." --[[User:Jdixon|Jdixon]] 12:34, 28 March 2011 (EDT)
:Agreed. Gloria is definitely a good choice. Perhaps "40"; its lyrics are directly lifted from Psalm 40. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 12:43, 28 March 2011 (EDT)
::You're kidding right? [http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/us-election/u2-honoured-to-be-involved-with-obama-celebrations-14145757.html Conservative indeed..] [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:06, 28 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Bono has had a relationship with every President since Clinton; for instance, he worked with Bush on issues relating to Africa and AIDS awareness. The band is very Christian and in no way ashamed of their Christianity. And, rare for rock stars, three of the four members of the band are married family men. They are known for their charitableness and philanthropy, which are of course [[conservative]] traits. Without a doubt, U2 is a conservative, Christian band and they should have representation on this list. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 22:21, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

::::''Gloria'''s a good choice, please add it if you agree. But U2 became increasingly liberal the more media attention it obtained.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:07, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

:::::Maybe it's possible to be Christian and pro-family, and yet left-leaning politically. Anyway, I vote for "Beautiful Day" ... The heart is a bloom / Shoots up through the stony ground / But there's no room / No space to rent in this town

:::::Reminds me of how inhospitable this fallen world can be to the spirits of believers trying to lead a godly life in the midst of a secular world which often seems to be ruled by the devil (John 12:31). Yet God's love is there, like sunshine! --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 14:53, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Brothers in Arms - Dure Straits ==

I would like to suggest Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits. It's about war and having ones "brother's in arms" in support. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 17:32, 4 April 2011 (EDT)
:If there is no argument to it's inclusion I'll add it soon. Let me know your thoughts though...[[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 17:42, 5 April 2011 (EDT)

== YMCA? ==

I'd always heard that the Village People's YMCA was about [[homosexual]] men seducing other men? That doesn't sound very [[conservative]] to me. Is this just a rumor? --[[User:JustinD|JustinD]] 12:45, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
:This was obviously added as a joke, and no one else seems to have realized it! [[User:TriciaS|TriciaS]] 12:25, 18 June 2011 (EDT)

::Nope - the song is a legitimate tribute to the Young Men's Christian Association.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:19, 18 June 2011 (EDT)
:::Right. And Antony came to bury Caesar, not to praise him. "It's fun to stay at the Y-M-C-A. / They have everything that you need to enjoy, / You can hang out with all the boys..." [[User:TriciaS|TriciaS]] 13:32, 18 June 2011 (EDT)
::::It was probably written about more savory activities at the Y but later became identified as a gay anthem. I don't think it's a "conservative song" if it's overwhelmingly associated with homosexuality. [[User:NKeaton|Nate]] 13:43, 18 June 2011 (EDT)

:::::The song is a good faith tribute and attempts to redefine it are not factual.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:10, 18 June 2011 (EDT)

:::::: Does anyone have any solid sources one way or the other as to what this song means? I tried some brief googling, but didn't turn up anything at all trustworthy. --[[User:JustinD|JustinD]] 22:35, 28 June 2011 (EDT)

::::::: The band leader said it was a legitimate tribute to the Young Men's Christian Association, and we respect original meaning at ''Conservapedia''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:40, 28 June 2011 (EDT)

::::::::Awesome. Do you have a source for that I can add?--[[User:JustinD|JustinD]] 21:28, 29 June 2011 (EDT)

== Really? Have You Looked Into These Songs? ==

I'd just like to say that I think it's really jacked that you're going around and trying to SAY what these songs mean. For example, Metallica is NOT a conservative band. James Hetfield was a heavy drinker until he went to rehab, Kirk Hammett suffered from drug addiction during his teen years, and if you listen to any other song you hear that they are NOT a conservative band.

Furthermore, Journey is NOT a conservative band. Steve Perry openly voted for Obama in 2008. --[[User:Beanna|Beanna]] 20:04, 24 May 2011 (EDT)

: This isn't a list of conservative bands. It's a list of conservative ''songs''. Even liberals are capable of occasionally singing a conservative song.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:19, 24 May 2011 (EDT)

== An idea... ==

I was looking at this list and realised that most of the songs listed here are big hit numbers. I was thinking that it might be interesting to look at whether the more conservative a song is the better it does on the charts. Even though the artist might be liberal it seems there bigger hits are in fact conservative songs! Maybe by charting something like this we could prove that people respond better to the conservative message and perhaps change the minds of some liberal singers. Just an idea. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 20:31, 27 May 2011 (EDT)
:We could add the respective chart ranking to this page and then collate the results by rank and date. Perhaps, like the conservative words, we might even see the same pattern repeated here! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 20:48, 27 May 2011 (EDT)

::Great idea!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:01, 27 May 2011 (EDT)
:::It'll be a big project though so it'll be awhile for me to collate the results but I fear that we'll find that the majority of new hits are liberal in nature (particulalry coming from M&M and Usher etc) but I think that is because of the "hollywood" influence. Interestingly artists distanced from "fame" have better messages and ''still'' produce amazing hits. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:11, 27 May 2011 (EDT)

== From a youngin' ==

Citizen/Soldier by 3 Doors Down. I don't know about the band themselves, but any song that supports the National Guard should be listed here, in my honest option. If no one minds, I'll add it.

== Wish you were here ==

This is a good list of songs, but as far as I know, ''Wish you were here'' (the title track, along with the entire eponymous album) was not dedicated to a conservative president, but rather to ex-Pink Floyd member Syd Barrett. --[[User:LeonardO|Leo-from-UK]] 19:19, 16 June 2011 (EDT)

== Two song suggestions ==

Hallowed Be Thy Name - Iron Maiden

1) Like Welcome to the Family, it's about death row, but not anti-death penalty.

2) Multiple references to an afterlife. "Tears they flow but why am I crying?/After all I am not afraid of dying/Don't I believe that there never is an end?" and later in the song: Mark my words believe my soul lives on/Don't worry now that I have gone/I've gone beyond to seek the truth".

3) The very title of the song is derived from the Lord's Prayer, which is also implied to be the protagonist (in the song)'s final words.

Declaration Day - Iced Earth

The whole thing is about the American war for independence, so it's probably a good choice for the list.

I'll add them for the time being, but if most of you think they don't go, I'll take them down.

: Thanks for suggesting them, but I don't see much that is conservative in your first suggestion other than acceptance of an afterlife (or judgment). That's an important message, but some of the religious references seem to be simply an attempt to give the song gravitas. Perhaps others have some insights about this.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:54, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

::Perhaps it's time to branch out and create a category or essay on "Songs of interest to conservatives" or [[Songs that Conservatives like]].

::I like a lot of songs, even if I would be hard pressed to say why they are "conservative songs". Not every song or book or movie I like is [[Conservative]], and I think it's important to be broad-minded enough not to condemn everything that isn't 100% in line with my beliefs and values.

::In fact, I go even further and say that one of the main differences between liberals and conservatives is that liberals are supremely narrow-minded. All the talk about "tolerance" is a one way street with them. They want us to tolerate their radical notions, but they are ready at the drop of a hat to kick us out of their cushy little world any time we offer a different idea.

::You would never hear of a Bible-belt Christian walking up to a famous liberal author and kicking his wine glass over at a picnic, saying, "We don't allow liberals here." (see [[Glen Beck in NYC]]). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 23:35, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

== I don't think Lola qualifies ==

IIRC, it ends with a complete lack of repentance -- "I'm glad I'm a man, and so is Lola". I don't think that this song qualifies as conservative if it celebrates that which we abhor.

:Our sister project, Wikipedia, says the song "details a romantic encounter between a young man and a transvestite" (hardly a conservative theme). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 12:09, 25 July 2011 (EDT)

== Overhaul the "Greatest Conservative Songs" ==

I think this is something that needs to happen before this Essay begins to get out of control. GCSs Essay needs to reorganized into some sort of categorical order—be it alphabetical or otherwise—in order to clean up the Essay and to provide clarity to avoid double posting. I will be happy to categorize it alphabetically by either the artist or song. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 13:00, 26 July 2011 (EDT)
:I've just rewritten most of the page. Everything is nearly exactly the same, except for a small amount of rephrasing to keep things grammatically correct. I've added peak chart position for every song, but in the interest of making that data comparable, I've limited it to US chart positions. There are some songs (like Brothers In Arms) which charted well in other countries, but didn't chart at all in the US. I eliminated two duplicate entries - Ballad of the Green Berets, and God's Gonna Cut You Down. Enjoy. [[user:CGoodwin|CGoodwin]]
::Good work CGoodwin. Maybe we can have the same revision for [[Essay:Greatest Conservative Movies]]. [[User:KBarnett|KBarnett]] 15:47, 29 July 2011 (EDT)

:::CGoodwin, your tabular format and ranking information is interesting. Well done. But surely ''Amazing Grace'' has been more popular than just about every other song on the list. How should the table reflect that?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:05, 29 July 2011 (EDT)
::::Billboard popularity only measures against how everything else is selling at the same time. If an song sold 100 copies a week for 20 years, it would never crack the charts. The other thing is that there are over 3000 recorded versions of the song. The highest charting individual version I've found is Elvis's, which reached #79. If you want to reflect a broader historical sense of popularity, I'd suggest doing a personal ranking. [[user:CGoodwin|CGoodwin]]

:::::Great Job CGoodwin! Very clean and will definatly help those looking to post songs to check to see if they are or are not already posted. -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 16:32, 30 July 2011 (EDT)

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-30T05:01:50Z

Austenbosten: /* Future */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] helped cure me of my mental disorder and made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
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{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:George_w_bush.jpeg|55px]] |info=<center>This user, thanks to Obama, Now misses George W Bush</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-29T05:17:37Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] helped cure me of my mental disorder and made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

Michael Savage

2011-07-29T05:16:36Z

Austenbosten: Undo revision 894023 by Austenbosten (talk)

[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|right|thumb|Michael Savage]]
'''Dr. Michael Savage''', (born Michael Alan Weiner March 31, 1942) is a conservative talk show host.<ref name="sourcewatch">http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Michael_Savage SourceWatch</ref>

* Mr. Savage opposes [[statism]], [[unlimited immigration]] and [[Muslim fundamentalism]]. He defends America’s national sovereignty and distinct cultural identity. In short, he is a nationalist who champions blood-and-soil conservatism.<ref> [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/26/obamas-assault-on-conservative-speech/ By Jeffrey T. Kuhner-The Washington Times 7:20 p.m., Thursday, May 26, 2011]</ref>

Savage is the author of 18 books, including four New York Times Best Sellers: ''The Political Zoo'', ''Liberalism is a Mental Disorder'', ''The Savage Nation'' and ''The Enemy Within.'' Many of his books have been on [[botany]] and [[Nutritional Ethnomedicine]].<ref name="sourcewatch" /> He holds doctorates in both economics and botany which he received from the University of California, Berkeley.<ref>http://www.thesavagemichael.com/biography.html</ref>

Savage is generally known to be more outspoken, or more direct, than other conservative commentators. Some view this as his way of driving home points to liberals, who he seems to view as cynical. Other conservatives are strongly against such methods. However, many do find them to be effective and count themselves as fans of his show, which was named by ''Talkers Magazine'' as the 3rd most influential talk show in America.<ref>[http://66.227.50.219/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=44 Talkers Magazine 100 Most Important Radio Talk Show Hosts in America, 2008]</ref>

In March 2004, he began a televised version of ''The Savage Nation'' on [[MSNBC]], but was let go<ref>http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2003-07-07-msnbc-fires-savage_x.htm MSNBC fires Michael Savage after anti-gay comments</ref> after telling a prank caller who identified himself as a, "sodomite," in Savage's words, to, "get [[AIDS]] and die."<ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdtw-WDSzzI</ref> Savage explained that he was making a personal insult to a prank caller, who he considered to be harassing him, not to all gays. This is consistent with his treatment of other prank callers.

In 2007, he won the Freedom of Speech award from ''Talkers Magazine'', a [[talk radio]] trade industry publication.

His nationally-syndicated radio show is called, ''Savage Nation''. In the early weeks of June 2007, Savage spent almost every minute of his show lambasting [[George W. Bush]]'s proposed immigration reform bill. Savage takes credit<ref>Monday, June 25 2007, "The Savage Nation," 750 KPRC (Houston).</ref> for the defeat of the bill. He has also been credited with coining the terms, "compassionate conservative," and, "Islamo-fascist," which have gained wider usage in other circles.<ref>[http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/?pageId=10 World Net Daily Bio on Michael Savage]</ref>

During the introduction and for the bumper music on his radio program, Savage often uses music by the [[heavy metal]] bands [[Metallica]] and [[Rammstein]].<ref>[http://www.nopactalent.com/speakers/Michael-Savage/1271 Michael Savage Bio at Nopac Talent]</ref>

==Banned in Britain==
On May 5, 2009 Savage was placed on a list of persons who have either called for attacks against the British government, or have attacked and murdered individuals based on political or religious hatred; others on the list included Jewish nationalist Mike Guzovsky; imprisoned Russian skinhead leaders Artur Ryno and Pavel Skachevsky; and Islamic leaders Wadgy Abd El Hamied Mohamed Ghoneim, Abdullah Qadri Al Ahdal, Safwat Hijazi, Amir Siddique, Abdul Ali Musa, Samir Al Quntar and Nasr Javed. Citing the hypocrisy of Britain in general, and British liberalism in particular when they stand by and listen to the calls for murder and destruction by Islamic fanatics ''within'' Britain, Savage said
:"How can a nation put me on a list and leave hate preachers in England who say that we're going to kill all of you? We're going to convert all of you to Islam. How is it possible that those hate preachers can't be deported from Britain, but I can be banned from Britain? People who advocate actual murder cannot be deported from Britain. How is it that liberalism has gotten so distorted and cowardly?"<ref>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=97127</ref>

Knowing that his written and recorded record has never included such urgings, Savage responded by suing several members of Britain, including Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, the individual who "redefined" terrorism in Britain, and was responsible for putting Savage's name on the list.<ref>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=97134</ref> The negative publicity brought about the case ultimately forced her resignation; she would go on to lose her Parliament seat as well.<ref>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1274495/UK-ELECTION-RESULTS-2010-Jacqui-Smith-expenses-scandal-MPs-lose-seats.html?ito=feeds-newsxml</ref>

Savage wrote an account of the ordeal, ''Banned in Britain''<ref>https://www.savageonlinestore.com/index.jsp</ref><ref>http://www.amazon.com/Banned-Britain-Beating-Liberal-Blacklist/dp/1427642532</ref>, and as of May 2011 he is still on the list.<ref>http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/files/filesSavage/savageukletter.pdf</ref><ref>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=177961</ref>

==Michael Savage Lexicon==
Michael Savage like Mark Levin is also known for his use of humorous and derogatory ways of describing names and organizations.

* Mainstream Media = Government-Media Complex
* Newspapers = Local Rags
* [[New York Times]] = Old York Times
* [[New York Times|Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr]] = Pinchy
* [[The Weekly Standard]] = The Meekly Standard
* [[Nancy Pelosi]] = Nancy Lugosi
* [[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] = The [[Hitler]] of our time
* [[Barack Obama]] = Obummer, The Marxist-in-chief
* [[San Francisco]] = San Fransicko
* [[Al Gore]] = Al Gorlioni of the Gorlioni Crime Syndicate
* [[Prince Charles]] Prince "Schmuck" Charles
* [[Mark Levin]] = The guy who sounds like Groucho Marx's grandmother on laughing gas
* [[Sean Hannity]] = The Wallbanger
* [[Bill O'Reilly]] = Leprechaun
* [[Rush Limbaugh]] = The Golfer
* [[Glenn Beck]] = The hemorrhoid with eyes
* Neil Cavuto = The sock puppet
* Shepard Smith = Schlep Smith
* Nancy Grace = Nancy Graceless
* [[Whoopi Goldberg]] = Whoopi cushion
* [[Anderson Cooper]] = Anderson Blooper
* [[Lou Dobbs]] = Duffy the Bartender
* [[Ann Coulter]] = Schoolyard hag
* [[CNN|Rick Sanchez]] = King of the worms
* [[Keith Olbermann]] = The guy who urinates on himself
* [[Michael Moore]] = Fatso, Fat Slob
* [[Pat Buchanan]] = Pat "Buchenwald" Buchannan
* [[Chris Matthews]] = Democrat Hack
* [[John McCain]] = John McShame, The Pill
* Meghan McCain = The Whinny Chick, Pill Jr.
* [[Jerry Brown]] = Moonbeam
* [[Timothy Geithner]] = The Tax Cheat
* [[Richard Durbin]] = Turban Durbin
* [[Anita Dunn]] = Anita Dung
* [[Janet Napolitano]] = Big Sis'
* [[Newt Gingrich]] = The Go-PAC tick
* [[Mike Huckabee]] = Mike Hucksterbee
* [[John Boehner]] = "Cry Baby" Boehner, Pink Tie
* [[Al Sharpton]] = Freddy's Fashion Mart
* Kenneth Lewis = The Madhatter
* Jamie Dimon = Jamie Demon, Jamie Diamond
* When speaking dismissively about politics:
**[[Democrats]] = Demoncans
**[[Republicans]] = Republicrats
* Islamic terrorists = throwbacks
* Liberal Jews = Bagel and Lox Jews
* [[Democratic Party]] = Democrat-Socialist Party of America
* Liberal Republicans = Rockefeller Republicans
* Pseudo-Conservatives = Check-pants Conservatives, Country club Conservatives

== References ==
<references />

{{DEFAULTSORT: Weiner, Michael Alan}}
[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Conservative Commentators]]
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

Television

2011-07-28T22:11:39Z

Austenbosten: /* History of Television as a Medium */

'''Television''' is a medium characterized by the simultaneous dissemination and reproduction (often thousands of miles away) of either a scene captured and shown while it is taking place, or the recording of such a scene or scenes that took place earlier.

== History of Television as a Medium ==
[[Image:OTVbelweder-front.jpg|200px|thumb|right|OT-1471 Belweder, Poland, 1957 
1. power switch / volume 
2. brightness 
3. pitch 
4. vertical synchro 
5. horizontal synchro 
6. contrast 
7. channel tuning 
8. channel switch]]
As with most inventions, there is controversy as to who deserves to be considered "the" inventor, with several different television projects being developed independently.

Early experiments in electromechanical television were conducted by [[Charles Francis Jenkins]] in the late 1920s in the United States, building on the work of Scottish inventor [[John Logie Baird]]. Jenkins patented the first practical television set <ref>US Patent No.1,544,156 </ref> and operated the first television broadcasting station in the US, W3XK, in 1928.

Jenkins' system was not commercially successful and was abandoned. This probably occurred because the [[Great Depression]] intervened and made the medium a prohibitively expensive extravagance. Government red tape also played a role in Jenkin's failure: the FRC, the forerunner of the FCC, would not allow him the use of two frequencies, so he was unable to broadcast the picture and sound simultaneously.
[[Image:Early television.jpg|thumb|left|In 1936 the first scheduled television broadcasts begins in the United Kingdom with the United States following suit in 1939.]]
Other pioneers in the development of television include Philo Farnsworth and Vladimyr Zworykin. Zworkyin developed a series of electronic television camera tubes, all referred to as "iconoscopes." He worked for and was heavily backed by David Sarnoff and the Radio Corporation of America, and his devices are thus in the direct ancestry of commercial television as we know it today.

Following the end of [[World War II]] and the tremendous prosperity that followed, television captured the interest of the public, especially in the [[United States]].

Television is both a dissemination medium and a means of recording motion pictures for later review, transmittal and exhibition.
{{Clear}}

== Uses of Television ==
Television has a very wide variety of uses and seems destined not to become obsolete unless and until human civilization becomes obsolete. Its many uses include without limitation:
[[Image:A180-AT3720A CA.jpg|right|thumb|200px|A modern flat panel high definition 37" Television from ''Acer inc.'']]
# As an aid to education, both by recording lectures, demonstrations, or field trips, and by repeating the voice and image of a lecturer to multiple locations in a large room, or even multiple rooms, to ensure that every attendee of a lecture is able to see and hear the speaker(s).
# As a means of disseminating current events.
# As a means of recording any action or actions that might become the subject of a legal contest. This is especially true today of [[police]] officers who might stand accused of the use of excessive force in the performance of duty, or otherwise improper performance of duty.
# As a means of setting a watch on any gate, room, or other venue that might become the scene of a crime or come under external attack.
# As a means of improved communication.
# As a safe way of "seeing" the scene of an industrial or other process--or accident--that would create danger to any person close enough to see it with his own eyes.
# As a tool of [[propaganda]].
# As a form of [[theater]].

The last use is definitely the most popular use of television today. Television as theater usually refers to the transmission of dramatic presentations either made especially for the medium or originally made to be exhibited in [[motion picture]] exhibition halls ("movie theaters") but now offered for instantaneous mass transmission. Television ''also'' is the modern means of allowing millions of people to view public games. Though the original public games of, say, the [[Rome|Roman Empire]] are no longer being staged, their spiritual descendants continue as, for example, [[automobile]] racing and various contact and non-contact [[sport]]s. Virtually any spectacle that in earlier centuries would draw large numbers of attendees is a candidate for transmission on television. This especially includes the installation of a new head-of-state.

For further discussions of television as theater (and its use and mis-use), see [[Theater]].

== Types of broadcasting ==
* [[Digital television]]
* [[Cable]]
* [[Satellite]]
* [[Analog]] television (to be phased out in the U.S. February 2009)

== References ==

<references/>

[[Category:Broadcasting]]
[[Category:Technology]]

Michael Savage

2011-07-28T01:43:27Z

Austenbosten: Added paragraph

[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|right|thumb|Michael Savage]]
'''Dr. Michael Savage''', (born Michael Alan Weiner March 31, 1942) is a conservative talk show host.<ref name="sourcewatch">http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Michael_Savage SourceWatch</ref>

* Mr. Savage opposes [[statism]], [[unlimited immigration]] and [[Muslim fundamentalism]]. He defends America’s national sovereignty and distinct cultural identity. In short, he is a nationalist who champions blood-and-soil conservatism.<ref> [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/26/obamas-assault-on-conservative-speech/ By Jeffrey T. Kuhner-The Washington Times 7:20 p.m., Thursday, May 26, 2011]</ref>

Savage is the author of 18 books, including four New York Times Best Sellers: ''The Political Zoo'', ''Liberalism is a Mental Disorder'', ''The Savage Nation'' and ''The Enemy Within.'' Many of his books have been on [[botany]] and [[Nutritional Ethnomedicine]].<ref name="sourcewatch" /> He holds doctorates in both economics and botany which he received from the University of California, Berkeley.<ref>http://www.thesavagemichael.com/biography.html</ref>

Savage is generally known to be more outspoken, or more direct, than other conservative commentators. Some view this as his way of driving home points to liberals, who he seems to view as cynical. Other conservatives are strongly against such methods. However, many do find them to be effective and count themselves as fans of his show, which was named by ''Talkers Magazine'' as the 3rd most influential talk show in America.<ref>[http://66.227.50.219/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=44 Talkers Magazine 100 Most Important Radio Talk Show Hosts in America, 2008]</ref>

In March 2004, he began a televised version of ''The Savage Nation'' on [[MSNBC]], but was let go<ref>http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2003-07-07-msnbc-fires-savage_x.htm MSNBC fires Michael Savage after anti-gay comments</ref> after telling a prank caller who identified himself as a, "sodomite," in Savage's words, to, "get [[AIDS]] and die."<ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdtw-WDSzzI</ref> Savage explained that he was making a personal insult to a prank caller, who he considered to be harassing him, not to all gays. This is consistent with his treatment of other prank callers.

In 2007, he won the Freedom of Speech award from ''Talkers Magazine'', a [[talk radio]] trade industry publication.

His nationally-syndicated radio show is called, ''Savage Nation''. In the early weeks of June 2007, Savage spent almost every minute of his show lambasting [[George W. Bush]]'s proposed immigration reform bill. Savage takes credit<ref>Monday, June 25 2007, "The Savage Nation," 750 KPRC (Houston).</ref> for the defeat of the bill. He has also been credited with coining the terms, "compassionate conservative," and, "Islamo-fascist," which have gained wider usage in other circles.<ref>[http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/?pageId=10 World Net Daily Bio on Michael Savage]</ref>

During the introduction and for the bumper music on his radio program, Savage often uses music by the [[heavy metal]] bands [[Metallica]] and [[Rammstein]].<ref>[http://www.nopactalent.com/speakers/Michael-Savage/1271 Michael Savage Bio at Nopac Talent]</ref>

Savage has been criticized heavily by conservative talk show host [[Mark Levin]], thus leading to a feud between the two. Mark Levin has criticized Michael Savage by saying he is a "Manchurian conservative" and is not a real supporter of conservatism.<REF>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0fMxJM60c#t=6m19s|Mark Levin Criticizes Michael Savage] 27 July, 2011</REF>
On July 26, 2011, Michael Savage on his website claims that the Norwegian mass-murderer Anders Behring Breivik was a "Christian terrorist".<REF>[http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/2011/07/the-christian-terrorist-the-greatest-enemy-is-the-enemy-within|"The Christian: The Greatest Enemy is the Enemy Within"] Michael Savage www.michaelsavage.wnd.com 27 July, 2011</REF> Despite the evidence from Fox News and other conservative media outlets disproving that claim,<REF>[http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2011/07/26/oreilly-blasts-media-branding-norwegian-terror-suspect-christian-extremist |"Bill O'Reilly Blasts Media for Branding Norwegian Suspect a 'Christian Extremest'"] Fox News.com 27 July, 2011</REF> Michael Savage appears to be siding with the radical-Left organization [[Media Matters]] on the issue which also espouses the same view on Breivik,<REF>[http://mediamatters.org/blog/201107270001 |"Media Matters blog on Breivik"] Media Matters.org 27 July 2011</REF> thus Mark Levin's arguments may be justified.

==Banned in Britain==
On May 5, 2009 Savage was placed on a list of persons who have either called for attacks against the British government, or have attacked and murdered individuals based on political or religious hatred; others on the list included Jewish nationalist Mike Guzovsky; imprisoned Russian skinhead leaders Artur Ryno and Pavel Skachevsky; and Islamic leaders Wadgy Abd El Hamied Mohamed Ghoneim, Abdullah Qadri Al Ahdal, Safwat Hijazi, Amir Siddique, Abdul Ali Musa, Samir Al Quntar and Nasr Javed. Citing the hypocrisy of Britain in general, and British liberalism in particular when they stand by and listen to the calls for murder and destruction by Islamic fanatics ''within'' Britain, Savage said
:"How can a nation put me on a list and leave hate preachers in England who say that we're going to kill all of you? We're going to convert all of you to Islam. How is it possible that those hate preachers can't be deported from Britain, but I can be banned from Britain? People who advocate actual murder cannot be deported from Britain. How is it that liberalism has gotten so distorted and cowardly?"<ref>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=97127</ref>

Knowing that his written and recorded record has never included such urgings, Savage responded by suing several members of Britain, including Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, the individual who "redefined" terrorism in Britain, and was responsible for putting Savage's name on the list.<ref>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=97134</ref> The negative publicity brought about the case ultimately forced her resignation; she would go on to lose her Parliament seat as well.<ref>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1274495/UK-ELECTION-RESULTS-2010-Jacqui-Smith-expenses-scandal-MPs-lose-seats.html?ito=feeds-newsxml</ref>

Savage wrote an account of the ordeal, ''Banned in Britain''<ref>https://www.savageonlinestore.com/index.jsp</ref><ref>http://www.amazon.com/Banned-Britain-Beating-Liberal-Blacklist/dp/1427642532</ref>, and as of May 2011 he is still on the list.<ref>http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/files/filesSavage/savageukletter.pdf</ref><ref>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=177961</ref>

==Michael Savage Lexicon==
Michael Savage like Mark Levin is also known for his use of humorous and derogatory ways of describing names and organizations.

* Mainstream Media = Government-Media Complex
* Newspapers = Local Rags
* [[New York Times]] = Old York Times
* [[New York Times|Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr]] = Pinchy
* [[The Weekly Standard]] = The Meekly Standard
* [[Nancy Pelosi]] = Nancy Lugosi
* [[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] = The [[Hitler]] of our time
* [[Barack Obama]] = Obummer, The Marxist-in-chief
* [[San Francisco]] = San Fransicko
* [[Al Gore]] = Al Gorlioni of the Gorlioni Crime Syndicate
* [[Prince Charles]] Prince "Schmuck" Charles
* [[Mark Levin]] = The guy who sounds like Groucho Marx's grandmother on laughing gas
* [[Sean Hannity]] = The Wallbanger
* [[Bill O'Reilly]] = Leprechaun
* [[Rush Limbaugh]] = The Golfer
* [[Glenn Beck]] = The hemorrhoid with eyes
* Neil Cavuto = The sock puppet
* Shepard Smith = Schlep Smith
* Nancy Grace = Nancy Graceless
* [[Whoopi Goldberg]] = Whoopi cushion
* [[Anderson Cooper]] = Anderson Blooper
* [[Lou Dobbs]] = Duffy the Bartender
* [[Ann Coulter]] = Schoolyard hag
* [[CNN|Rick Sanchez]] = King of the worms
* [[Keith Olbermann]] = The guy who urinates on himself
* [[Michael Moore]] = Fatso, Fat Slob
* [[Pat Buchanan]] = Pat "Buchenwald" Buchannan
* [[Chris Matthews]] = Democrat Hack
* [[John McCain]] = John McShame, The Pill
* Meghan McCain = The Whinny Chick, Pill Jr.
* [[Jerry Brown]] = Moonbeam
* [[Timothy Geithner]] = The Tax Cheat
* [[Richard Durbin]] = Turban Durbin
* [[Anita Dunn]] = Anita Dung
* [[Janet Napolitano]] = Big Sis'
* [[Newt Gingrich]] = The Go-PAC tick
* [[Mike Huckabee]] = Mike Hucksterbee
* [[John Boehner]] = "Cry Baby" Boehner, Pink Tie
* [[Al Sharpton]] = Freddy's Fashion Mart
* Kenneth Lewis = The Madhatter
* Jamie Dimon = Jamie Demon, Jamie Diamond
* When speaking dismissively about politics:
**[[Democrats]] = Demoncans
**[[Republicans]] = Republicrats
* Islamic terrorists = throwbacks
* Liberal Jews = Bagel and Lox Jews
* [[Democratic Party]] = Democrat-Socialist Party of America
* Liberal Republicans = Rockefeller Republicans
* Pseudo-Conservatives = Check-pants Conservatives, Country club Conservatives

== References ==
<references />

{{DEFAULTSORT: Weiner, Michael Alan}}
[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Conservative Commentators]]
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-28T00:35:22Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* <s>Dr. [[Michael Savage]] helped cure me of my mental disorder and made me a Conservative</s>

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-28T00:33:28Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] helped cure me of my mental disorder and made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

Mark Levin

2011-07-27T17:53:50Z

Austenbosten: /* The Mark Levin Lexicon */ added Charles Krauthammer

[[File:Marklevin.jpg|right]]

'''Mark Reed Levin''' (born September 21, 1957) is a Constitutional lawyer, president of the the prestigious [[Landmark Legal Foundation]] in [[Washington D.C.]], a top-rated nationally syndicated [[conservative talk radio]] host and a best selling non-fiction author. Also, the former Chief of Staff for Attorney General Edwin Meese during the [[Reagan Administration]]. Mark has been a frequent guest and substitute host on The Sean Hannity Show, and has also been an advisor to [[Rush Limbaugh]], who frequently refers to him on the air with the nickname "F. Lee Levin." A reference to the famous defense attorney F. Lee Bailey. He is perhaps more well-known for his nickname, 'The Great One,' coined by his friend [[Sean Hannity]]. He is a believer in spreading the conservative message and wants the citizens to take an active political role in society.

==Career and honors==
Beginning in 1981, Mark R. Levin served as advisor to several members of President Ronald Reagan's Cabinet, eventually becoming Associate Director of Presidential Personnel and ultimately Chief of Staff to Attorney General Edwin Meese; Levin also served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Elementary and Secondary Education at the U.S. Department of Education, and Deputy Solicitor of the U.S. Department of the Interior. He has practiced law in the private sector, and is president of the Landmark Legal Foundation in Leesburg, Virginia. He holds a B.A. from Temple University, where he graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude, as well as a J.D. from the Temple University Beasley School of Law.

In 2001, the American Conservative Union named Levin the recipient of the prestigious Ronald Reagan Award.

==Radio Host==
Levin's first radio job was a Sunday afternoon show on WABC networks in 2002. In 2003, The Mark Levin Show was broadcast from the competitive 6:00 p.m. (EST) time slot, Monday through Friday. The show is distributed to over 150 stations and satellite radio by Citadel Media on ABC Radio Networks. His ever growing audience is top-rated on the AM frequency with over 5.5 million average listeners.

==Author==
Levin's published the book ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' which discusses how [[activist judges]] are [[Judicial activism|legislating from the bench]]. This book was released in 2005 and became a best-seller. In 2007, he published a non-political book '' "Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish," ''that dealt with the adoption of his dog from a humane society. His next book would be an instant success,'' "[[Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto.]]" ''The book opened to 13 of 14 weeks as the No.1 best seller on the New York Times list. A review from Amazon.com says, '' "Levin lays out how conservatives can counter the [[liberal]] corrosion that has filtered into every timely issue affecting our daily lives, from the economy to health care, global warming, immigration, and more -- and illustrates how change, as seen through the conservative lens, is always prudent, and always an enhancement to individual freedom." '' His book is endorsed by fellow conservative talk radio host [[Rush Limbaugh]]. Levin said that his book is so successful without any help of the [[mainstream media]] outlets, which not even a single network has done a review. More than 1 million copies have been sold.

==Television & Internet==
Levin makes regular appearances with [[Hannity]] on [[Fox News]]. Levin is also a contributing editor for National Review Online. Also, Levin has social networking pages on [[Twitter]] and [[Facebook]].

==The Mark Levin Lexicon==
Levin holds disdain for the [[mainstream media]] and the politicians who pander to them. He often likes to refer to them in a derogatory and humorous way. It is Levin's style that distinguishes himself from other radio personalities.

*[[New York Times]] = New York Slimes, [[Washington Post]] = Washington Compost, [[Associated Press]] = Associated Depressed, [[Huffington Post]] = Huffington Puffington Compost
*[[ABC News]] = ABC Snooze, [[CBS News]] = CBS Snooze, [[MSNBC]] = MSLSD
*[[Face the Nation]] = Deface the Nation
*[[Meet the Press]] = Meet the Depressed
*Morning Joe = Morning Schmo
*Countdown, with [[Keith Olbermann]] = Countdown to No Ratings, with Keith Overbite
*Hardball with [[Chris Matthews]] = Screwball on Screwball, Chris "I'll have another drink" Matthews
*[[Bill O'Reilly]] = The Non-Factor
*[[Rachel Maddow]] = Rachel Madcow
*[[Glenn Beck]] = The Backbencher with Tourettes
*[[Tom Brokaw]] = Tom Broke-jaw
*[[Tim Russert]] = Mr. Potatohead
*Cris Collinsworth = Cris Collinsworthless
*[[David Letterman]] = David Letterdork, The Buck-Toothed Moron
*[[MediaMatters]] = The criminal operation known as Media Matters, MediaDoesn'tMatters
*[[American Civil Liberties Union]] = American Criminal Liberties Union
*[[National Organization for Women]] = National Organization for Women Who Look Like Men, National Organization for Really Ugly Women
*[[Chuck Schumer]] = Chucky Schmucky Schumer
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Stretch Pelosi
*[[Barbara Boxer]] = The Dwarf Senator
*[[Dick Durbin]] = "Little Dick" Durbin
*[[Howard Dean]] = Dr. Demento Dean
*[[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] = Hillary Rotten Clinton, Her Thighness
*[[Bill Clinton]] = BJ Bill Jefferson Clinton
*[[Ted Kennedy]] = The Cape Cod Orca, FatTed
*[[Joe Biden]] = The Dumbest Man in the Senate, Plugs Biden
*[[John Kerry]] = John "D-Student" Kerry
*[[John McCain]] = John McLame
*[[John Murtha]] = Lardass
*[[John Dingell]] = John Dingleberry
*[[Harry Reid]] = Harry "The Body Odor" Reid
*[[Lindsey Graham]] = Goober, Lindsey Grahamnesty
*[[Lincoln Chafee]] = Lincoln Chafing
*[[Dianne Feinstein]] = Dianne Frankenfeinstein
*[[Mary Landrieu]] = Mary Landfill
*[[Barney Frank]] = Barney's Frank
*[[Kathleen Sebelius]] = Kathleen Silly-us
*[[Jim Webb]] = Jim Melonhead Webb
*[[Arnold Schwarzenegger]] = The Jerkinator, a moron in two languages
*[[Rahm Emanuel]] = Al Capone
*[[Barack Hussein Obama]] = Barack Milhous Nobama, Barack America
*[[Al Franken]] = The Spiteful Troll
*[[Henry Waxman]] = The Crypt Keeper
*[[Olympia Snowe]] = Olympia Snowe-job
*[[Arlen Specter]] = Arlen Spectacle
*[[Colin Powell]] = Colon Polyp
*[[Ron Paul]] = RuPaul
*[[Jesse Jackson]] = Jesse Jerkson
*[[Al Sharpton]] = Al "Not So" Sharpton
*[[Jeremiah Wright]] = The Wrong Reverend Wright
*[[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] = Yabba-Dabba-Doo
*[[Harry Belafonte]] = Harry BelaCommie
*[[Oprah Winfrey]] = Oprah Windbag
*[[Matt Damon]] = Matt Demon
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben AFLAC
*[[George Clooney]] = George Looney
*[[Michael Savage]] = Weiner Nation
*[[Don Imus]] = I'm-a-Wuss in the Morning
*[[Jon Stewart]] = Jon Stewart AKA John Leibowitz AKA Jon Stewart
*[[Steven Colbert]] = Steven Cole-BERT
*Moderate Republicans = RePubicans, RePubics
*[[EPA]] = Soviet Protection Agency
*[[Michael Bloomberg]] = Michael Bloomturd, the man that opposes salt on your food and on your streets
*[[Mike Huckabee]] = Hucka-a-Phoney
*[[Donald Trump]] = Donald Chump
*[[Steny Hoyer]] = Stimpy Hoyer
*[[Russ Feingold]] = Foolsgold
*[[Chris Wallace]] = The Flake
*[[Chuck Hagel]] = Schmagel
*[[Bill Maher]] = Short, stupid, white-comedian guy
*[[Charles Krauthammer]] = Charles Krautheimer

==Quotes==

* Liberalism is mind-boggling and stupid. <ref>July 7, 2011 broadcast</ref>

* Speaking of [[Barack Hussein Obama]], "You cannot be a [[statist]] and a believer in the [[Declaration of Independence]]."

* Speaking of Congressional liberals, "You are some of the biggest frauds on the face of the Earth. Liberalism is lying. Sorry, it's true."

* From his August 4th, 2009 radio program, ''"We now have the [[liberal playbook]] and we know what they are doing, and we are using it against them. Unlike the Democrats though, we aren't out to destroy our society, we are out to save it."''

* "The Congressional Switchboard number is easy to remember, 1-877-SOB-U-SOB, I kid you not." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# 03/18 The Mark Levin Show]</ref>

* "[[Obama]] is a liar. Those who carry water for him like [[Pelosi]], Reid, and the [[Mainstream media | hacks on TV]] are liars too, because they knowingly repeat falsehoods." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com Mark Levin Show 3/30/10]</ref>

== See also ==
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Landmark Legal Foundation]]

== Books ==
* ''Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416562850
* ''Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416559132
* ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1596980095
[[File:Rescuesprite.gif]]

==References==
<references/>

==External Links==
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com Official website]
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930 Free archive of past shows]
*[http://www.landmarklegal.org Landmark Legal Foundation]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Levin, Mark}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:Authors]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

Talk:Mystery:Why is the Senate More Liberal than the House?

2011-07-27T15:50:30Z

Austenbosten: /* Interesting Note and My take */

== Is it possible that... ==

...those who are elected to the House tend to better represent the [[Best of the Public]]? Would it be possible to examine the overall backgrounds of House members as opposed to Senate members to ascertain how far their backgrounds are removed from the public? I suspect we would find that far fewer Senate members tend to have "common man" backgrounds, and thus, that it's easier for them to fall into the limousine liberal mindset. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 11:11, 24 July 2011 (EDT)

: Superb insight ... and I think the rules of the House are more welcoming to the [[best of the public]] than the clubby rules of the Senate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:59, 24 July 2011 (EDT)

== Interesting Note and My take ==

When the Kansas–Nebraska Act of 1854 was shoved through the Democratic-controlled Congress—despite strong opposition from the dramatically dying Whig Party—and signed into law by Franklin Peirce, it was the biggest setback for the Abolition movement since the Fugitive Slave Act four years earlier. The passage of this bill led to the formation of the Republican Party—and the final demise of the Whigs—and the first ever Republican-controlled House of Representatives in 1855. Yet even though the opposition held control of the House, the Democrats still held control of the Senate and thus it wouldn't be until the Election of 1860 before the Republicans took control of both Houses.

I think we still need to remember that the reason the Senate is more Liberal than the House, is because there is a laggard factor. Congressmen serve a term of two years, while a term is six years for a Senator. Six years ago the nation was very upset with the actions of Iraq and the response to Hurricane Katerina and thus it is important to look at the Senate as a window into the past. Now before someone starts talking about reforming the election process, remember that the US Constitution originally mandated that the Senate be elected by state legislatures—not popular vote—and if we look at the makeup of state legislatures in 2004 and 2006 we would see that the US Senate would have been made up of more Republicans than Democrats, because of Republican majority in state legislatures. My point; the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing the first time around! -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 13:42, 26 July 2011 (EDT)

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-27T04:29:48Z

Austenbosten: /* Who am I? */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] helped cure me of my mental disorder and made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-27T04:29:13Z

Austenbosten: /* Who am I? */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of the mental disorder known as [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-27T04:20:02Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Billcraig_czvx.jpg|50px]]|id2=[[Image:Richard_Dawkins_pic.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user wants to see William Lane Craig debate and thrash Dick Dawkins</center>}}

Talk:Secularized Language

2011-07-27T00:06:08Z

Austenbosten: /* The Saint's Days */ Comment on Easter

I'd like to organize these into categories - not divided up, maybe - with secularized expressions at the top (e.g., Thank God => thank goodness). Terms indicating a total shift of concept like Bible Study => fundamentalism might come later. Everyone okay with this? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 08:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)

: Sounds good to me! How about giving it a try and let's see how it looks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:32, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::To be fair, many more conservative Christians (my mother, for example), use some of the so-called "secular expressions" because they take a strict line on taking the Lord's name in vain. She would, for example, rather not say "Thank God" unless she was quite literally thanking the deity. Indeed, I believe that is how the "thank goodness" construction originally evolved. --[[User:Jdixon|Jdixon]] 12:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::That might well be, Jdixon--certainly, it's laudable to take seriously the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain--but I don't think very many Christians would see a heartfelt "Thank God!" as inappropriate in many circumstances. Thus, while your mother's conscientiousness is admirable, I don't think such conscientiousness is a sufficient explanation for the systematic removal of religious language from the public square. Certainly, I think that some people choose "Thank goodness" out of a concern for propriety, but I think many more choose it out of a desire to avoid giving offense, or simply because it's what they're most used to hearing. Perhaps a section on differing reasons for using these terms could be included in the article; after all, this is supposed to be an examination of the issue. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 13:34, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Washington's Birthday/President's Day ==

While this is a case of P.C., it's not a case of secularized language. Last I checked, George Washington was not a sacred personage. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 13:47, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:Washington was a prominent Christian whose habit of praying and appealing to God for assistance is well-known. He was a kind of saint, and the downplaying of his (indisputable) significance is due to his Christianity. If he had been an atheist then you'd see the opposite effect.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:20, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::What kind of a saint was George Washington? --[[User:JohannesZ|JohannesZ]] 15:52, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::The kind that wins wars. There have been other examples. Have you ever heard of [[Joan of Arc]]?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:02, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::::Canonized in 1920, right? When did the Church recognize Washington as a saint? [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 16:17, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::::@Andy: Aye. She still needed miracles credited to her. [http://www.stjoan-center.com/novelapp/joaap04.html] --[[User:JohannesZ|JohannesZ]] 16:20, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think all Christian churches have the same rules.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:23, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::::::Undoubtedly. So which churches DO recognize Washington as a saint or other type of sacred being? [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 16:26, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::::::: Perhaps the church of Satan does, or perhaps atheists simply dislike Washington. Wouldn't that be enough to explain the misnaming of the holiday as described in the entry?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:31, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::I'm pretty sure that The Church of Satan does not acknowledge George Washington as divine. If there's any evidence -- a tract from an angry atheist decrying a celebration of the Christian Washington and demanding a holiday that accommodates the Presidents that were not Christians, I've yet to find one. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 16:37, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::::Marty, bias doesn't work that way. You're not likely to find such an angry tract about ''any'' of the items on the list.

::::::::::Atheistic bias, like other forms of bias, seeks to downplay and minimize Christianity. Washington was a leading, accomplished Christian. Lincoln far less so, other presidents even lesser still, and the office of president not Christian at all. An atheistic bias pushes language from the Christian recognition to the more atheistic substitute.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:15, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::::I agree with Andy here; the greater the Christianity of an historical figure, the more the atheistic revisionists will try to downplay his significance. [[User:PeterUker|PeterUker]] 18:24, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::::: How can President's Day even be considered remotely secularized as it was never a religiously themed event to begin with? The reason we have President's Day is due to the hesitation and the unwillingness of conservatives in the southeast to celebrate Lincoln's birthday as vilified he was as in infringing on "state's rights," and removing their "Peculiar institution." This contrasts to other locations in the country who celebrated both Washington's birthday and Lincoln's birthday in two different events. Furthermore, the Federal Government was disinterested in granting two Monday's off for federal employees, so came the compromise of celebrating a day between Lincoln's and Washington's birthday.[[User:JustinU|JustinU]] 21:46, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::::::: Lincoln never had a stature comparable to Washington, and it's not merely because southerners disliked Lincoln. The attempt to equate Lincoln to Washington as a joint federal holiday was a farce and never got off the ground.

::::::::::::: But atheists downplay Washington just as they downplay other accomplished Christians. It's irrelevant whether the holiday was ever "religiously themed." A day honoring a prominent Christian has been diluted and even misnamed. It's the same secularization seen in replacing "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays."--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::::::: Mr. Aschlafly, I am unsure if you are purposefully misapplying my point so that your argument appears to be stronger, but I feel that your point is less than successively argued. In fact, the reason that Lincoln is trumpeted as being one of the greatest Presidents to have ever had the honor of holding the office is because, pointedly, history holds him comparable to George Washington in regards to leadership and vision for the country. I am also at ends with your rather presuming statement of Washington's Christianity, considering the well documented Enlightenment-era beliefs he held associated with his principles as a Freemason, a largely deist organization.[[User:JustinU|JustinU]] 00:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::::::::JustinU, it is well documented in Washington's own writings as well as the writings of those who knew him that he was a committed Christian within the Episcopalian Church. The "deist" allegation is from the late-20th century only. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 00:57, 23 February 2011 (EST)
[[Image:Clog-dancer.gif|thumbnail|right|150px|Maybe we should have a annual parade for St. George Washington like we do for St. Patrick. :)]]
:::The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia correctly declares and supports the doctrine that every true Christian believer is a saint.[http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/saints.htm] The [[Apostle Paul]] wrote: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the <big>'''saints'''</big> which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1: 1-6) Washington appears to have been a true Christian.[http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html] Therefore, George Washington was a saint. Maybe we should have a annual parade for St. George Washington like we do for St. Patrick. :) [[User:Conservative|conservative]] 04:33, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== A few questions ==

A few of the words here don't really seem to fit in the list.
For example:
*'''Resurrection Sunday''' -> '''Easter'''
::"Easter" does have pagan origins, but the Pope says "Easter Sunday", not "Resurrection Sunday" - see[http://www.vatican.va/liturgical_year/liturgico_en/easter.html] and [http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/calendar/ns_liturgy_calendar_en.html#APRIL_2011]. In fact, a Google search of the Vatican website doesn't find "Resurrection Sunday" at all, except a few times with commas in between.

*'''Washington's Birthday''' -> '''President's Day'''
::It's not secularization as far as I can tell. And President's Day honors Lincoln as well. Silly political correctness, maybe. Secularization, no.

*'''Pagan''' -> '''Secular'''
::Pagan usually refers to belief in multiple gods, while secular refers to something separate from religion (e.g. the Turkish government is secular because there is no state religion).

*'''God bless you''' -> '''Gesundheit'''
::Gesundheit is what Germans have always said after a sneeze. Many European countries have the same kind of response. Nobody ever says "God bless you" in German. "Gesundheit" is as old as "God bless you", and the people who say it got the idea from German-Americans.

[[User:DouglasL|DouglasL]] 14:18, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:Pagan definition: one who has little or no religion. Secular definition: not overtly or specifically religious. --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 14:31, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::Merriam-Webster Online: [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan?show=0&t=1298483529 Pagan] [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secular Secular]
::The first definition for "pagan" is ''a follower of a polytheistic religion'' - notice "polytheistic religion". Secular is ''not overtly or specifically religious''. There's a difference, and in order to claim that "secular" is a redefinition of "pagan" you have to completely ignore the ''first'' definition of "pagan". There's probably another word that could be used as the precursor of "secular" (Atheist?), but it's not "pagan". [[User:DouglasL|DouglasL]] 12:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::To clarify: I '''do''' think that the word "secular" and maybe "pagan" belong on this list, but not together. Maybe "atheist" -> "secular" and "pagan" -> "Wiccan" or such? [[User:DouglasL|DouglasL]] 18:28, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== The Saint's Days ==
* Valentine's Day is no longer officially the feast day for St. Valentine, which definitely explains on some level why the "St" has been dropped from the name. February 14th is now the feast day for Cyril and Methodius, this changed in 1969 under Pope Paul the V, I think.

*Paddy for St. Patrick's Day makes logical sense in that Paddy is a celtic diminutive for Padrig, which is Anglicized to Patrick. I've never actually heard it as Paddy's Day, I've always heard it as "St. Paddy's Day"

*Resurrection Sunday has been called Easter since at the very least the AD 600s. St. Bede's ''Ecclesiastical History of the English People'' written in the early 700s refers to it as Easter, although he does admit it is tied to the Pagan festival of Eostre he still uses the term Easter. I don't think it is logical to use Easter as an example of modern society trying to erase Christian influence from daily life, I think it is simply a continuation of a name that is well over 1,000 years old.

just my thoughts, good luck.--[[User:IScott|IScott]] 19:13, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:Interesting comments, but they don't contradict the observation of bias. Practicing Catholics are a small minority in the United States and Western Europe, so the relevance of the Church's changing of the feast day for St. Valentine hardly seems dispositive. As to your second point, the "logical sense" is very strained in denying credit where it is due. As to your third point, Christians refer to Easter as Resurrection Sunday to this day, just fewer of them. And there was bias in 600 A.D. too.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:13, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I too have never heard paddy's day, it is always proceeded by the "St.". While catholics may be a minority in the west one exception to that is Ireland (the only country in the EU with out abortion) and I think the secular consciousness still associates Ireland with Catholicism. --[[User:AlaskanEconomy|AlaskanEconomy]] 21:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)

: I agree that the actual Saint's days have been marginalized, and that the meaning of the holidays hold almost no religious meaning anymore. Irish-Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day not as a saint's feast but as a day to meaninglessly celebrate their Irish-ness and dye rivers green and over-indulge in drinking alcohol, and Valentine's Day is a day to celebrate love and has very little to do with the old saint's feast.
: However, I stand firm on my third point, I find it highly unlikely that '''Saint Bede''', venerated in both the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion, who is also considered a '''Doctor of the Church''' to be biased towards an unchristian term. In the 700s Bede refers to it as Easter and it has been called Easter by the English people and English speakers since at least then. For well over 1,000 years the majority of devout English Christians have called it Easter, and thus its use cannot be a modern attempt to try to obscure Christian origins.--[[User:IScott|IScott]] 23:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I agree that the use of Easter is not a ''modern'' secularization, but I still wonder whether its use was influenced by pagan tendencies in the first millennium. I have no quarrel with Saint Bede but am not sure he named it. He may well have been an expert about God but that does not make one an expert about bias. Quite the contrary: Jesus said the people of [[faith]] do not quickly recognize the tricks of the worldly.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:45, 22 February 2011 (EST)

A small correction about one of my role models. Bede is not a saint although, as IScott pointed out, he is a Doctor of the Church. His tomb, in Durham Cathedral, is worth a visit! [[User:Rafael|Rafael]]

:Thanks for correcting that!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 01:05, 1 March 2011 (EST)

::I don't mean to be harsh, but you are mistaken Rafael, Bede is a Saint. He is often refered to as just "the venerable" but he is a Saint so I can see where you might be confused. He is venerated in the Anglican Communion as well as the Roman Catholic Church. Even Conservapedia's own entry on [[Bede]] has an icon that says "St. Bede." Furthermore a google search of Saint Bede shows that there are a variety of churches named in his honor, in Williamsburg, VA there is a Catholic Church called St. Bede's Catholic Church, as well as an Anglican Church of St. Bede in Scarborough, ON, Canada, and a variety of churches and Parish schools in England. In the Episcopal Church Bede's feast day is May 25th. Bede is very much a Saint. Hope that clears up the Sainthood of Bede!--[[User:IScott|IScott]] 16:42, 2 March 2011 (EST)

: I agree with others on how Easter is considered Secularized? Easter takes place around the Jewish Passover and is actually called Pascha in the Original Greek in the NT. Pascha is Greek for Pesach which Pesach is Hebrew for Passover from the OT. Pascha and Pesach are the same word. In Latin vulgate the word for Easter and Passover is Paska, my point. Easter and Passover are the same word in the historical Greek text. It wasn't until Tyndale when translating the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into English—for there was no Passover, only Pesach(Hebrew)/Pascha(Greek)—needed a way to separate the Jewish Passover from the Resurrection, and thus he creates Easter and Passover. Easter is an anglicized version of the Germanic word Oster which in German means auferstehung or Resurrection. To simply sum up, there is someone who is much better adept at explaining than I am and I urge someone to watch and critique [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkJMeSrTSg "Easter is NOT Pagan"]. On a final note, Easter is used in the KJV Bible, so is the King James Bible somehow written by secularist Liberals? -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 20:05, 26 July 2011 (EDT)

== Perversion diversity ==

As I understand it this is a list of words that are backward compatible to former religious meanings. We could stop saying Happy Holidays as a society and say Merry Christmas. I'd hate to think of what bigots we would appear to be if we started calling diversity perversion. "Have a lot of people off all different races, creeds, and colors working at your company, you are perverted!" or "A black man marrying a white woman, that's a perverted couple!" Since I doubt that anyone here thinks that way (and if they do maybe they should find somewhere else to be) then I think that should be pulled from the list for now. --[[User:AlaskanEconomy|AlaskanEconomy]] 20:01, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:'Diversity' is a word used often by liberals and others who push the [[homosexual agenda]], claiming that ongoing [[homosexualization]] is in the name of diversity. As a conservative and one who reads the Bible daily, I find same-sex marriage perverse, yet liberals such as yourself would refer to such things as diverse. Hence, your non-sequiturs aside, I feel the entry should remain. [[User:PeterUker|PeterUker]] 20:10, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::A) You didn't address my point
::B) Perversion isn't a religious word any more than right and wrong. Are math teachers helping to keep Christianity vibrant and alive by assigning problems which are later graded as right and wrong?
::C) How ever often you claim to read the bible doesn't really matter here. This is the internet, anyone can claim to read the bible. however much they want. --[[User:AlaskanEconomy|AlaskanEconomy]] 20:32, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'd have to weigh in with [[User:AlaskanEconomy|AE]] on this. Although, specifically, "diversity" is ''becoming'' a by-word, diversity is an [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/diversity old word] and refers to more than ''just'' homosexualization, by keeping it as is '''gives''' those advocates legitimacy and (in the end) we end up losing a serviceable word. [[User:DevonJ|DevonJ]] 21:06, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::::We could make several categories of terms which have normal vs. liberal counterparts. Not all such pairs are examples of secularization. Some merely reflect the liberal worldview. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 22:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::::Diversity is more an example of liberals distorting the meaning of a word, the way I see it. I wouldn't call the original meaning of "diversity" an example of perversion, but advocates of the homosexual agenda ''try'' to make it into a different word. [[User:DouglasL|DouglasL]] 18:40, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Dead/Passed ==

I'm not quite sure this fits. While "passed" or "passed on" is certainly a euphemism for "dead," surely it carries with it the connotation of passing on to God's judgment? It seems to me like, if anything, "dead" is the more atheist-friendly term, since they're fond of claiming that once you're dead, you're dead. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 22:52, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:You seem to be correct, perish->dead maybe? Do what you feel is right.--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 22:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Use of Christian Language in non-Religious Context ==

Based on the introduction to this page, the list is supposed to contain Christian expressions that have been replaced by secular expressions. But some examples are Christian expressions that are being used in non-Religious context. (Examples on this page include "Saintly"/"Well-behaved" and "Angelic"/"Pretty." Other examples I thought of are "Oh my God!" instead of "Oh no!" and calling something "divine" instead of "delicious" or "in excellent taste.") Maybe this page can have one list of Christian expressions that are being replaced with different secular terms, and one list that contains Christian expressions that have been inappropriately adopted by the secular crowd for non-religious use. Does this make sense? Or do you think this all belongs in the same list? --[[User:Toadaron|Toadaron]] 12:25, 24 February 2011 (EST)

== Gesundheit means "God Bless you!" in German==
Gesundheit litterally translates to "God Bless you!" in German. I don't think there is any malice or Secularized Language in this phrase. I think it was just a custom started by German-American Immigrants that caught on. As a descendant of German-American immigrants I feel obliged to point this out. Thank you, --[[User:Davidkon|Davidkon]] 14:30, 24 February 2011 (EST)
:As a speaker of German, I can tell you that Gesundheit means "Health". Gott segne dich! [[User:EricAlstrom|EricAlstrom]] 15:03, 24 February 2011 (EST)
:Sorry to disagree with you, Davidkon, but "geshundheit" means "good health" as this entry[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gesundheit] states. The German word for God is "Gott", and this word is not part of gesundheit. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 15:07, 24 February 2011 (EST)

== Changes ==

I made a start at the categories Ed suggested, and organized the terms alphabetically within each category. I did remove the example of "Jesus!" to "Gee whiz!", as I really think that's primarily a case of people trying not to use the Lord's name in a profane fashion. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 13:10, 26 February 2011 (EST)

: Your improvements are superb. But I didn't know that "Gee whiz" was a secularization of "Jesus"! I'd be inclined to leave that in for informative purposes, even though you're reason for deleting it is probably. Perhaps with a footnote?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 13:19, 26 February 2011 (EST)

:: I can certainly see your point as far as the informative value, and this isn't, after all, just supposed to be an article about language that was secularized for malicious reasons. It seems like we really do need a section exploring possible reasons for the secularization of language, and the ways in which even benign motives can contribute to the trend. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 15:20, 26 February 2011 (EST)

:::Hmm...that being the case, should similar euphemistic alterations like "Jeepers Creepers" be added in, too? --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 15:23, 26 February 2011 (EST)

:::: You win. Let's keep that junk out. :-) --[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:45, 26 February 2011 (EST)

== Government ==

Hello,
I was wondering wondering what the rational of "State -> Government", along with "Govern -> Rule". I don't particularly see how either is Christian or secular, and beyond that, it seems like these to contradict each other. Just wanting to hear some thoughts. [[User:EricAlstrom|EricAlstrom]] 18:52, 26 February 2011 (EST)

:Seems straightforward: the more atheistic one is, the more he views government as the church, and officials in government as rulers. In contrast, the term "state" includes the people (e.g., "State of Rhode Island"), and governing connotes an element of service rather than purely ruling.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:04, 26 February 2011 (EST)

== Christmas/Xmas ==

I would like to point out that the English letter X looks exactly like the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of 'Christ' in Greek. That is the origin of 'Xmas' and it is not an attempt to take Christ out. I submit that 'Xmas' should be removed from this list.
--[[User:Lordofthemarsh|Lordofthemarsh]] 11:51, 2 March 2011 (EST)

:That's a slippery slope: referring the "X" to "Christ". Let's keep it in for now.

:Eventually, we can expand this topic, branching out to all sorts of language differences between conservatives and liberals. The religious-secular division is just one such difference.

:By the way, I'd prefer you to use your real name (unless Andy has given you specific permission to use a pseudonym). --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 14:50, 2 March 2011 (EST)

::The transliteration of Christ in Greek is Χριστός, for what it is worth.
::I thought the point of the article was how we all talk about the same things but that the sacredness has been removed by substituting a synonym to remove the holiness of the original words.
::I suppose, conversely, one could make the point that LORD is a "secularized" version of the tetragrammaton. This was done for the reason that YHWH was too sacred to be uttered. [[User:DevonJ|DevonJ]] 17:37, 2 March 2011 (EST)

== "Notes" section ==

I added a "notes" section for things myself and others in the Talk page have pointed out. Let me know what you think. -[[User:Danq|danq]] 23:50, 2 March 2011 (EST)

== Shrove Tuesday/Mardi Gras ==

"Mardi Gras" is the '''''only''''' way to say "Shrove Tuesday" in French. Shrove Tuesday is a specific English tradition of a confessional before Lent. In French culture, the last day before Lent is ''Mardi Gras'', '''''never''''' a French translation of "Shrove Tuesday". The Vatican liturgical calendar doesn't even include the day before Ash Wednesday. [http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/calendar/ns_liturgy_calendar_en.html#MARCH_2011] [[User:DouglasL|DouglasL]] 15:04, 9 March 2011 (EST)

== Fighting Secularized Language ==

Would it be appropriate to comb through Conservapedia articles for instances of secularized language on this list, and change them to reflect the correct words? I haven't been active in a while, and I thought such a project might be a good re-introduction to the community.
--[[User:WillS|WillS]] 19:43, 13 March 2011 (EDT)

:That's a great idea!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:23, 13 March 2011 (EDT)

::Thanks! I'm on it. One question; is there any way to edit page titles? For example, the 'birth control' pill should really be called the 'abortion' pill; I think that's both fighting secular language and much more accurate, anyways (not that there's any chance of secular thought being mistaken as logical!).--[[User:WillS|WillS]] 22:58, 16 March 2011 (EDT)
:::If doing so would require more user rights than I have, I could also compile a list for a moderator to look at when they're not busy. I'm running into quite a few; '[[Halloween]]' should be renamed 'Hallowed Eve,' for example.--[[User:WillS|WillS]] 23:10, 16 March 2011 (EDT)
::::Will I'm reverting you on quite a few pages - I think you're going too far in a lot of cases, for example, in an article called "Atheist vs. Secular" you replaced "secular" with "pagan" (see [http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Atheist_vs_Secular&diff=857269&oldid=854632 here]). I also particularly disagree with your edits [http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Hurricane_Katrina&curid=4875&diff=857294&oldid=832249 here], [http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Falsifiable&diff=857293&oldid=849936 here], [http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Alcoholics_Anonymous&curid=29600&diff=857297&oldid=685921 here] ... well pretty much of all of them. I'm likewise going to accuse you of parody. If Andy disagrees with my reverts I will obviously cease, but until he approves your edits I plan on reverting you on-sight.
::::Also you'll notice that this entry makes very clear that birth control is not always used to mean "abortion" - it's only noting that abortionist might use the phrase birth control so that they don't have to say "abortion" - so your changes there are also disingenuous.
::::Furthermore, and lastly, the notion that only "pagan liberals" use the secularized version of these words is laughable. Through secularization the words have entered into (indeed, sometimes replacing the old words) modern vernacular. If you're to suggest that everyone who uses the term "Easter" is a pagan liberal ([http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Resurrection_Sunday&action=historysubmit&diff=857285&oldid=844239 as you did here]) - then you're suggesting the majority of the United States is pagan liberals, which is simply not the case '''at all'''. --[[User:Iduan|I]][[User_talk:Iduan|Duan]] 23:59, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

:::::User is blocked. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 00:44, 17 March 2011 (EDT)

== Removing "Paddy's Day" ==

As Aschlafly said, "atheists have been unable to secularize the name of the holiday by omitting 'Saint'." [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 10:01, 17 March 2011 (EDT)

:The difference between [[St. Patrick's Day]] and [[Valentine's Day]] is that the former is to honor a [[saint]] (and [[patriot]]), while the latter about exchanging romantic cards and is no longer related in the public mind with the original [[Saint Valentine]].

:I don't expect the secularists to achieve the same success with [[Christmas]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] [[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]] 01:13, 18 March 2011 (EDT)

== Christmas, and Islamic terorism ==

I may be totally off base here, but isn't "Christmas" technically an example of secularized language, as it is an abbreviation of "Christ's Mass"? It looks like an attempt to remove the "mass" aspect of Christmas. [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 01:31, 23 March 2011 (EDT)
:Also, I'm not sure that Islamic terrorism (or any terrorism, for that matter) and man-made disasters can be automatically conflated while excluding other terrorism. For example, the Oklahoma City bombing, an example of domestic (and not Islamic) terrorism, certainly wouldn't fall under the commonly accepted definition of "man made disaster". While it is certainly a disaster, made by man (and not God), then wouldn't all terrorism necessarily fall under this definition? [[User:DennyW66|DennyW66]] 13:07, 23 March 2011 (EDT)

== Patriot --> Extremist ==

Given that the first use of the word dates to 1577 and speaks more to love of country than to love of God, isn't it already a "secularized" word to begin with? [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 17:28, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
: I didn't think about it like that. What do you think God & Country --> Extremist would do better?--[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 17:49, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
::I'm trying to parse out what you're thinking here: "One example would be West Palm Beach mayor Lois Frankel (D) is running against Allen West in 2012. His campaign is to label West as an extremist. Harry Reid is known to call patriots extremists." Okay, Frankel is calling West an extremist. Not knowing much about West, I have no real informed opinion on the matter, but that's entirely in the realm of the secular (ie, everyday party politics) to begin with. Where is the sacred/religious/holy aspect of West's or Frankel's position that is being elided with a secularizing discourse? And then you bring in Reid, and his use of the term "extremist" as a way to talk about his political opponents; again, this is business as usual for politicians, and I don't see any secularizing agenda here. The point of "secularizing language" is just that -- to secularize, ie, to draw our attention away from, or obscure, those elements of our history/experience/culture which speak to the domain of the sacred. Party politics is already secular by nature. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 18:05, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
:::West's points are a respect for God, love for the Constitution, America is exceptional, family is important, discipline and honor. The people attacking him are the extremists. They are the ones calling themselves righteous by calling him extremist. They support the control of people, not freedom. They support breaking the Constitution to implement their radical agenda. They don't respect God by pushing moral depravity and deaths of children in the womb. I understand that politics is secularized already, maybe a bad example. However, you can remove the politics and still find patriot --> extremist. The DHS targeting the people who loves this country as extremist. They [say] they don't look at it from a partisan point of view, only by threat level. So they themselves have removed politics from their decision and decided patriots are a threat aka extremist. I'd like to hear from others first before deciding to remove. --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 18:19, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::By trying to frame "patriotism" as something that is by nature sacred, it becomes impossible to conceive of a love of country that isn't rooted in love of God. The two aren't mutually exclusive--try telling as much to the 25 million Soviets, at least a portion of whom were doctrinaire communists, who died in the Great Patriotic War. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 18:33, 26 March 2011 (EDT)

== Founders/Extremists--> Is that even a thing? ==

Are there seriously people out there who aren't so fringe as to be completely unremarkable that are trying in a concerted manner to paint the Founding Fathers as a group of extremists? And how exactly would that be "secularizing language" ie trying to obscure a fundamentally religious phenomenon by using discourse as a means by which to hide the religious roots/origins/nature of a term? [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 19:03, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
:But the founders ''were'' extremists!
:The group of people we call the founding fathers could have worked many other ways to right the wrongs they saw perpetrated against English citizens in America, yet they choose complete and utter dissolution of the bonds to the Mother country, revolution. (If revolution isn't extreme then perhaps we need a new conservative word?) [[User:DevonJ|DevonJ]] 22:50, 26 March 2011 (EDT)

== I'm not sure you know what that word means. ==

"Secularizing" means to remove the religious elements from something, and thus to render it secular, such as replacing "Merry Christmas" (a religious concept) with "Happy Holidays" (a secular one). Going from "constitutionalist" to "birther" is not about secularizing a term and robbing it of its religious meanings. It's about using a snarl word for somebody's political point of view. [[User:LloydR|LloydR]] 13:12, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

:Why don't you educate all to what ''that'' word means exactly marty? Strictly political? It is in fact a God given right to freedom and liberty. It has honor, it was deemed pure. There is a sacred''ness'' nature to Constitutionalist. To call someone a birther is to say fringe and extreme, to marginalize demands laid forth by the Constitution. In other words to secularize. --[[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]] 14:33, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

== Should we add a historical part about the efforts of the Third Reich in secularizing/changing German language? ==

I'm pretty sure, that the Nazis tried to reform the German languages vocabulary quite extensively. That might be interesting for this article. A book that discusses this phenomenon is here[http://www.amazon.com/Language-Third-Reich-Imperii-Continuum/dp/0826491308/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top]. An article (in German) about the subject would be here [http://www.lingua.amu.edu.pl/Lingua_13/MAKOWSKI.pdf]. A reference to George Orwells ''1984'' might also be interesting since the book shows among other things, how a totalitarian governement will try to influence and control the language of its citizens. Since this would be a rather polarising edit I would like to have the OK of an admin. À Dieu--[[User:VPropp|VPropp]] 18:46, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

: Thanks for your interesting suggestion. Please add some historical examples to the entry. I'll add a new section to get it started.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:25, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

::Thanks for the new section. I added Nazi-Germany and George Orwell. It would be wonderful if someone could write something about the secularization of language in the Eastern Block, DDR and USSSR. I know there were efforts, but I don't know enough about them to add them. À Dieu--[[User:VPropp|VPropp]] 10:52, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

:::Thanks for your fascinating addition about this! Many will now learn from your insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:13, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

== page cleanup necessary ==

User Adamdiscordia appears to have multiple edits to this entry and it needs to be cleaned up. I don't have much interest in this article so I will let more active editors for this page do the clean up. I would also review the work of other new editors as well. [[User:Conservative|conservative]] 01:06, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-26T23:32:06Z

Austenbosten: /* Future */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----

{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
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{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-26T23:30:55Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----
{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Liberal_Brain.jpg|60px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-26T23:26:26Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----
{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}

{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Congressman-Wu.jpg|80px]] |info=<center>This user knows that [[Liberalism]] is a mental disorder</center>}}

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-26T23:19:12Z

Austenbosten: /* Current */

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage
* Mark Levin lexicons

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----
{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}

Mark Levin

2011-07-26T23:18:19Z

Austenbosten: /* The Mark Levin Lexicon */ added Bill Maher

[[File:Marklevin.jpg|right]]

'''Mark Reed Levin''' (born September 21, 1957) is a Constitutional lawyer, president of the the prestigious [[Landmark Legal Foundation]] in [[Washington D.C.]], a top-rated nationally syndicated [[conservative talk radio]] host and a best selling non-fiction author. Also, the former Chief of Staff for Attorney General Edwin Meese during the [[Reagan Administration]]. Mark has been a frequent guest and substitute host on The Sean Hannity Show, and has also been an advisor to [[Rush Limbaugh]], who frequently refers to him on the air with the nickname "F. Lee Levin." A reference to the famous defense attorney F. Lee Bailey. He is perhaps more well-known for his nickname, 'The Great One,' coined by his friend [[Sean Hannity]]. He is a believer in spreading the conservative message and wants the citizens to take an active political role in society.

==Career and honors==
Beginning in 1981, Mark R. Levin served as advisor to several members of President Ronald Reagan's Cabinet, eventually becoming Associate Director of Presidential Personnel and ultimately Chief of Staff to Attorney General Edwin Meese; Levin also served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Elementary and Secondary Education at the U.S. Department of Education, and Deputy Solicitor of the U.S. Department of the Interior. He has practiced law in the private sector, and is president of the Landmark Legal Foundation in Leesburg, Virginia. He holds a B.A. from Temple University, where he graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude, as well as a J.D. from the Temple University Beasley School of Law.

In 2001, the American Conservative Union named Levin the recipient of the prestigious Ronald Reagan Award.

==Radio Host==
Levin's first radio job was a Sunday afternoon show on WABC networks in 2002. In 2003, The Mark Levin Show was broadcast from the competitive 6:00 p.m. (EST) time slot, Monday through Friday. The show is distributed to over 150 stations and satellite radio by Citadel Media on ABC Radio Networks. His ever growing audience is top-rated on the AM frequency with over 5.5 million average listeners.

==Author==
Levin's published the book ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' which discusses how [[activist judges]] are [[Judicial activism|legislating from the bench]]. This book was released in 2005 and became a best-seller. In 2007, he published a non-political book '' "Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish," ''that dealt with the adoption of his dog from a humane society. His next book would be an instant success,'' "[[Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto.]]" ''The book opened to 13 of 14 weeks as the No.1 best seller on the New York Times list. A review from Amazon.com says, '' "Levin lays out how conservatives can counter the [[liberal]] corrosion that has filtered into every timely issue affecting our daily lives, from the economy to health care, global warming, immigration, and more -- and illustrates how change, as seen through the conservative lens, is always prudent, and always an enhancement to individual freedom." '' His book is endorsed by fellow conservative talk radio host [[Rush Limbaugh]]. Levin said that his book is so successful without any help of the [[mainstream media]] outlets, which not even a single network has done a review. More than 1 million copies have been sold.

==Television & Internet==
Levin makes regular appearances with [[Hannity]] on [[Fox News]]. Levin is also a contributing editor for National Review Online. Also, Levin has social networking pages on [[Twitter]] and [[Facebook]].

==The Mark Levin Lexicon==
Levin holds disdain for the [[mainstream media]] and the politicians who pander to them. He often likes to refer to them in a derogatory and humorous way. It is Levin's style that distinguishes himself from other radio personalities.

*[[New York Times]] = New York Slimes, [[Washington Post]] = Washington Compost, [[Associated Press]] = Associated Depressed, [[Huffington Post]] = Huffington Puffington Compost
*[[ABC News]] = ABC Snooze, [[CBS News]] = CBS Snooze, [[MSNBC]] = MSLSD
*[[Face the Nation]] = Deface the Nation
*[[Meet the Press]] = Meet the Depressed
*Morning Joe = Morning Schmo
*Countdown, with [[Keith Olbermann]] = Countdown to No Ratings, with Keith Overbite
*Hardball with [[Chris Matthews]] = Screwball on Screwball, Chris "I'll have another drink" Matthews
*[[Bill O'Reilly]] = The Non-Factor
*[[Rachel Maddow]] = Rachel Madcow
*[[Glenn Beck]] = The Backbencher with Tourettes
*[[Tom Brokaw]] = Tom Broke-jaw
*[[Tim Russert]] = Mr. Potatohead
*Cris Collinsworth = Cris Collinsworthless
*[[David Letterman]] = David Letterdork, The Buck-Toothed Moron
*[[MediaMatters]] = The criminal operation known as Media Matters, MediaDoesn'tMatters
*[[American Civil Liberties Union]] = American Criminal Liberties Union
*[[National Organization for Women]] = National Organization for Women Who Look Like Men, National Organization for Really Ugly Women
*[[Chuck Schumer]] = Chucky Schmucky Schumer
*[[Nancy Pelosi]] = Stretch Pelosi
*[[Barbara Boxer]] = The Dwarf Senator
*[[Dick Durbin]] = "Little Dick" Durbin
*[[Howard Dean]] = Dr. Demento Dean
*[[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] = Hillary Rotten Clinton, Her Thighness
*[[Bill Clinton]] = BJ Bill Jefferson Clinton
*[[Ted Kennedy]] = The Cape Cod Orca, FatTed
*[[Joe Biden]] = The Dumbest Man in the Senate, Plugs Biden
*[[John Kerry]] = John "D-Student" Kerry
*[[John McCain]] = John McLame
*[[John Murtha]] = Lardass
*[[John Dingell]] = John Dingleberry
*[[Harry Reid]] = Harry "The Body Odor" Reid
*[[Lindsey Graham]] = Goober, Lindsey Grahamnesty
*[[Lincoln Chafee]] = Lincoln Chafing
*[[Dianne Feinstein]] = Dianne Frankenfeinstein
*[[Mary Landrieu]] = Mary Landfill
*[[Barney Frank]] = Barney's Frank
*[[Kathleen Sebelius]] = Kathleen Silly-us
*[[Jim Webb]] = Jim Melonhead Webb
*[[Arnold Schwarzenegger]] = The Jerkinator, a moron in two languages
*[[Rahm Emanuel]] = Al Capone
*[[Barack Hussein Obama]] = Barack Milhous Nobama, Barack America
*[[Al Franken]] = The Spiteful Troll
*[[Henry Waxman]] = The Crypt Keeper
*[[Olympia Snowe]] = Olympia Snowe-job
*[[Arlen Specter]] = Arlen Spectacle
*[[Colin Powell]] = Colon Polyp
*[[Ron Paul]] = RuPaul
*[[Jesse Jackson]] = Jesse Jerkson
*[[Al Sharpton]] = Al "Not So" Sharpton
*[[Jeremiah Wright]] = The Wrong Reverend Wright
*[[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]] = Yabba-Dabba-Doo
*[[Harry Belafonte]] = Harry BelaCommie
*[[Oprah Winfrey]] = Oprah Windbag
*[[Matt Damon]] = Matt Demon
*[[Ben Affleck]] = Ben AFLAC
*[[George Clooney]] = George Looney
*[[Michael Savage]] = Weiner Nation
*[[Don Imus]] = I'm-a-Wuss in the Morning
*[[Jon Stewart]] = Jon Stewart AKA John Leibowitz AKA Jon Stewart
*[[Steven Colbert]] = Steven Cole-BERT
*Moderate Republicans = RePubicans, RePubics
*[[EPA]] = Soviet Protection Agency
*[[Michael Bloomberg]] = Michael Bloomturd, the man that opposes salt on your food and on your streets
*[[Mike Huckabee]] = Hucka-a-Phoney
*[[Donald Trump]] = Donald Chump
*[[Steny Hoyer]] = Stimpy Hoyer
*[[Russ Feingold]] = Foolsgold
*[[Chris Wallace]] = The Flake
*[[Chuck Hagel]] = Schmagel
*[[Bill Maher]] = Short, stupid, white-comedian guy

==Quotes==

* Liberalism is mind-boggling and stupid. <ref>July 7, 2011 broadcast</ref>

* Speaking of [[Barack Hussein Obama]], "You cannot be a [[statist]] and a believer in the [[Declaration of Independence]]."

* Speaking of Congressional liberals, "You are some of the biggest frauds on the face of the Earth. Liberalism is lying. Sorry, it's true."

* From his August 4th, 2009 radio program, ''"We now have the [[liberal playbook]] and we know what they are doing, and we are using it against them. Unlike the Democrats though, we aren't out to destroy our society, we are out to save it."''

* "The Congressional Switchboard number is easy to remember, 1-877-SOB-U-SOB, I kid you not." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930# 03/18 The Mark Levin Show]</ref>

* "[[Obama]] is a liar. Those who carry water for him like [[Pelosi]], Reid, and the [[Mainstream media | hacks on TV]] are liars too, because they knowingly repeat falsehoods." <ref>[http://www.marklevinshow.com Mark Levin Show 3/30/10]</ref>

== See also ==
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Landmark Legal Foundation]]

== Books ==
* ''Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416562850
* ''Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1416559132
* ''Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is destroying America'' by Mark Levin ISBN 1596980095
[[File:Rescuesprite.gif]]

==References==
<references/>

==External Links==
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com Official website]
*[http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930 Free archive of past shows]
*[http://www.landmarklegal.org Landmark Legal Foundation]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Levin, Mark}}

[[Category:Broadcasters]]
[[Category:Conservatives]]
[[Category:Authors]]
[[Category:The 100 Americans The Left Hates Most]]

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-26T22:09:11Z

Austenbosten:

== <center> Welcome to my Page! </center> ==

=== Who am I? ===

* I am an [[American]]

* I am a [[Conservative]]

* I am a [[Christian]]

* I was born in the [[Ohio|Heart of it All!]]

* I was a victim of [[Liberalism]]

* I am a [[Cold War]] kid

* Dr. [[Michael Savage]] made me a Conservative

=== Who do I admire. ===

* Jesus Christ
* Moses
* Martin Luther
* Pope John Paul II
* George Washington
* Thomas Jefferson
* Alexander Hamilton
* Ronald Reagan
* John F Kennedy
* Robert Kennedy
* George S. Patton
* Dwight D. Eisenhower
* Milton Friedman
* Bibi Netenyahu

==Contributions==
* Michael Savage Lexicon

==Plans==

===Current===
* Greatest Conservative Songs
* Templates
* Michael Savage

===Future===
* Ohio
* Eddie Rickenbacker

----
{{User Constitution}}
{{User Lutheran}}
{{User Theistic Evolutionist}}
{{User TEA Partier}}
{{User American}}
{{User Christian}}
{{User Critical}}
{{User ronny}}
{{User Mark Levin}}
{{User Washington1}}
{{User patriot}}
{{User hot air}}
{{User moderatecapitalist}}
{{User MickeyObama}}
{{User Obama acronym}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#990000 |border-s=2 |id-c=#FF0000 |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000011 |info-c=#FF0000|info-s=10 |info-fc=#fff|id=[[Image:Michaelsavage.jpg|70px]] |info=This user is a member of [[Michael Savage|The Savage Nation]]}}
[[Category:Userboxes]]
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Bachmann3.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user will vote for [[Michele Bachmann]], a true Republican and Conservative, in 2012!</center>}}
{{Userbox-2 |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id1-c=#fff |id1-s=12 |id1-fc=#000 |id2-c=#000 |id2-s=12 |id2-fc=#fff |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id1=[[Image:Mark_Levin2.jpg|70px]]|id2=[[Image:Ronpaul.jpg|55px]] |info=<center>This user agrees with Mark Levin that Ron Paul supporters are the Biggest Jerks of them all</center>}}
{{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#ff0000 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Constitution.jpg|50px]] |info=<center>This user owns and carries a copy of the Constitution with them</center>}}

Lee Strobel

2011-07-26T21:17:28Z

Austenbosten: Added Lee Strobel's show "Faith Under Fire"

[[Image:Mlogo.jpg|thumbnail|150px|right|Ex-atheist [[Lee Strobel]]]]
'''Lee Patrick Strobel''' is a former legal reporter for the Chicago Tribune and a Christian author. The basis for his 1981 journey from [[atheism]] to [[Christianity]] is discussed in his bestselling book ''The Case For Christ'' (Zondervan, 1998). After his wife had converted to Christianity, Strobel set out to disprove the faith, and instead became convinced by the evidence ''for'' it. He has expanded on this with other similarly themed [[Christian apologetics]] books such as ''The Case For Faith'' and ''The Case For a Creator''. He also hosted an interfaith debate show called ''Faith Under Fire''.

== See also ==
*[[Resources for leaving atheism and becoming a Christian]]
*[[Ex-atheist testimonies of Christians]]
==External Links==
*[http://www.leestrobel.com Lee Strobel's Website]

Lee Strobel videos:

*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs Lee Strobel's Testimony]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6JsvMzT-Iw Ex-Atheist Makes Case for Christ - Lee Strobel (1 of 2)]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ZonLrBLco Ex-Atheist Makes Case for Christ - Lee Strobel (2 of 2)]
*[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8509471336055032954# Lee Strobel on The John Ankerberg Show]

{{DEFAULTSORT: Strobel, Lee Patrick}}
[[category:Authors]]
[[category:Christian Apologists]]
[[Category:Former Atheists]]
[[Category:Christians]]

User:Austenbosten

2011-07-26T21:12:42Z

Austenbosten:

Michael Savage

2011-07-26T21:08:41Z

Austenbosten: Added the Michael Savage Lexicon section

Conservative

2011-07-26T18:13:59Z

Austenbosten: Edited last bullet point, as Democrats do uphold the Constituion, but only in a judicial activist sense

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A '''conservative''' adheres to principles of personal [[responsibility]], moral values, and limited government, agreeing with [[George Washington]]'s [[Farewell Address]] that "religion and morality are indispensable supports" to political prosperity.<ref>[http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/49.htm United States Department of State] George Washington, farewell address, 1796</ref><ref>Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary has the following definition of conservative: "tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : TRADITIONAL"[http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/conservative] Therefore, a conservative Christian would be one that tends to adhere to the morally sound doctrines of the early Christianity and [[Judeo-Christian]] values.</ref>

Former President [[Ronald Reagan]] said, "The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom."<ref>http://www.reason.com/news/show/29318.html</ref>
[[Image:Aaag.jpg|thumb|Ronald Reagan, the 40th President of the United States, is the epitome of American conservatism.]]

The ''sine qua non'' of a conservative is someone who rises above his personal self-interest and promotes moral and economic values beneficial to all. Alternatively, a conservative is willing to learn and advocate the insights of economics and the morality of the [[Bible]] for the benefit of all, recognizing that the Bible is the most logical book ever written. Specifically, conservatives seek or support:

* [[Limited government]] and balanced budgets
* [[Capitalism]] and [[free market|free markets]]
* [[Classroom prayer]]
* Prohibition of [[abortion]] and respect for human life
* [[Abstinence]] education
* Traditional marriage, not [[same-sex marriage]]
* Respect for differences between men and women, boys and girls
* Laws against [[pornography]]
* The [[Second Amendment]] right to keep and bear arms
* Economic allocative efficiency (as opposed to popular equity)
* The [[death penalty]]
* Parental control of education
* Private medical care and retirement plans
* Canceling failed social support programs
* No [[world government]]
* Enforcement of current laws regarding [[immigration]]
* Respect for our military ... past and present
* Rejection of [[junk science]] such as [[evolution]] and [[global warming]]
* Minimal Taxation
* [[Federalism]] (Separation of powers among the National, State and Local governments)
* Favoring [[states' rights]] over federal power, while accepting the Constitutional role of the federal government
* A strong national defense
* An [[Originalism|Originalist]] interpretation of the [[United States Constitution|Constitution]]

__TOC__ 
==Hall of Fame==
Conservative scholar Clinton Rossiter<ref> Rossiter, "The Giants of American Conservatism," ''American Heritage'' 1955 6(6): 56-59, 94-96, online in [[EBSCO]]</ref> names [[Alexander Hamilton]], [[John Adams]], [[John Marshall]], [[Daniel Webster]], [[John C. Calhoun]], [[Elihu Root]], and [[Theodore Roosevelt]] to the "Conservative's Hall of Fame,"'' with John Adams as the greatest of American conservatives.

===Presidents===
Periodically a conservative has been elected president of the United States. The most prominent conservative presidents include:
*[[George Washington]] (1789-1797)
*[[James Monroe]] (1817-1825)
*[[Grover Cleveland]] (1885-1889, 1893-1897)
*[[Warren G. Harding]] (1921-1923)
*[[Calvin Coolidge]] (1923-1929)
*[[Ronald Reagan]] (1981-1989)
*[[George W. Bush]] (2001-2009) (with respect to taxes, Supreme Court nominations, and national security)

The most prominent conservative Congresses have been:

*The 80th Congress (elected in 1946)
*The 104th Congress (elected in 1994)

===Movement===
[[Movement conservatives]] are those who accept the logic of conservatism across-the-board, and stand up for its powerful principles despite liberal ridicule. Movement conservative activists include:
*[[Phyllis Schlafly]], opposed [[ERA]]
*[[Larry McDonald]], Congressman, on board [[KAL 007]] when shot down by the Soviets near [[Moneron Island]].
*[[Jesse Helms]], Senator, specialist in foreign policy
*[[Pat Buchanan]], TV commentator
*[[Jerry Falwell]], religion
*[[Michele Bachmann]], columnist
*[[Ann Coulter]], columnist
*[[Rush Limbaugh]], radio
*[[Michelle Malkin]], commentator
*[[Glenn Beck]], TV commentator

===Key leaders===
*[[Barry Goldwater]] - 1964 Republican candidate, lost to liberal Democrat [[Lyndon Johnson]] but revived the conservative movement inside the GOP
*[[Russell Kirk]] - Theorist & intellectual
*[[Irving Kristol|Irving]] and [[William Kristol]] - Notable [[neoconservatives]]
*[[Margaret Thatcher]] - British prime minister between 1979 and 1990, held views similar to Reagan's
*[[Milton Friedman]] - Chicago-school [[libertarian]] [[economist]], influential during Reagan administration; leader of the [[Chicago School of Economics]]

==US Voters==
In America, most conservatives support the [[Republican Party]], but not exclusively so. In the 2008 election, 35% of the voters identified themselves as conservatives. Of them, 78% voted for McCain and 20% for Obama, with the 20% accounting for Obama's margin of victory. Only 22% of the voters were liberal; they favored Obama 89%-10%. In the middle were 44% who called themselves moderates. They split for Obama by 60%-39%. (Minor candidates won 2% of the vote.)<ref> See [http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1 Presidential 2008 Exit Poll]</ref>
[[File:Conservative-republican-brain.jpg|thumb|350px]]
===Religious differences between political conservatives and political liberals===
The Barna poll conducted in November 2008 shows significant differences between the 32% of Americans who called themselves as “mostly conservative” on social and political matters; and the 17% who called themselves “mostly liberal” on social and political matters. The others --50%--were moderates with positions somewhere in-between.<ref> See [http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/13-culture/258-survey-shows-how-liberals-and-conservatives-differ-on-matters-of-faith on line results] </ref>

Some findings:
Political liberals are less than half as likely as political conservatives to firmly believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches (27% versus 63%, respectively); to strongly believe that Satan is real (17% versus 36%); and to firmly contend that they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs with others (23% versus 48%).

[Note: "Liberal" and "conservative" in this survey are based on politics]

Liberals are also far less likely than conservatives to strongly believe each of the following:
*their religious faith is very important in their life (54% of liberals vs. 82% of conservatives);
*a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by doing good deeds or being a good person (23% vs. 37%);
*their faith is becoming an increasingly important moral guide in their life (38% vs. 70%);
*the church they currently attend is very important in helping them find direction and fulfillment in life (37% vs. 62%);
*their primary purpose in life is to love God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul (43% vs. 76%);

political conservatives were more likely than liberals to:
*read the Bible, other than at church events, during the past week (57% vs. 33%, respectively)
*attend a religious service during the past week (62% vs. 35%)
*pray to God, other than at a religious service, during the past week (91% vs. 76%)
*share their religious beliefs with others, during the past year (56% vs. 39%, among the born again Christians interviewed from each segment)
*have ever participated in a short-term missions trip, either within the U.S. or in another country (12% vs. 6%)

*2% of conservatives and 11% of liberals were atheist or agnostic
*15% of conservatives and 2% of liberals were Christian evangelicals
*conservatives were twice as likely as liberals to be categorized as born again, based on their theological views about salvation (63% vs. 32%)
*21% of conservatives were associated with the Catholic church, compared to 30% among the liberals.

== Barack Obama and American Conservatism Backlash ==
In October of 2009, Niles Gardiner reported in the [[Britain|British]] newspaper ''The Daily Telegraph'':
{{cquote|This week’s striking [[Gallup]] poll on political ideology is further confirmation that the United States is in essence a conservative nation, which has ironically become even more conservative under [[Barack Obama]]. According to Gallup, 40 percent of Americans describe their political views as conservative, 36 percent as moderate and 20 percent as liberal. This is the first time conservatives have outnumbered moderates in America since 2004.<ref>http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100014891/barack-obama-has-failed-to-defeat-conservatism-in-america/</ref>}}

== Conservative news organizations ==
Some of the more notable news organizations which tend to be more conservative are [[WorldNetDaily]] and [[NewsMax]]. [[Fox News]], though often called conservative, tends to be more [[neoconservative]] than [[conservative]].

== Conservative magazines and blogs ==
Well known conservative magazines in the United States include ''[[National Review]]'', ''[[Policy Review]]'', ''[[The Weekly Standard]]'' and others.

Some notable [[Conservative blogs|conservative political blogs]] include the [[Heritage Foundation]]'s Policy Weblog, ''[[Human Events]]'', [[Michelle Malkin]], Newsbusters, Townhall.com and others.

== Neoconservatives ==

American commentators who ally themselves with the conservative movement but reject its religious or moral underpinnings are generally known as [[neoconservatives]].<ref>Jonah Goldberg, [http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWMxNWNiNDJkY2JmNTExY2E1MzdkYWU3MWU1MTBiOGU= "What Is a 'Conservative'?"], [[National Review|National Review Online]], 11 May 2005</ref>

In the United States, conservatives are generally characterized by the following beliefs:

# Support of limited government.
# A preference for freedom of opportunity over equality of result.
# Patriotism, nationalism, and support of a strong defense.
# Support of the institution of marriage.
# Emphasis on social values, like prayer and pro-life principles.

In contrast, neoconservatives generally support bigger government and globalism, and tend to downplay the significance of social values.

== Paleoconservatives ==

[[Paleoconservatives]] are conservatives who are more focused on social issues and American sovereignty, and are suspicious of both big government and big business. They also lean against foreign interventionalism. Neoconservatives criticize this with the pejorative term of "isolationism," as they believe in promoting [[democracy]] worldwide, even where different religious or value systems are incompatible with democracy-induced changes in control.

Among paleoconservatives was Democratic Congressman from Georgia, [[Larry McDonald]]. He was also second Chairman of the [[John Birch Society]], and President of Western Goals. McDonald was aboard [[Korean Airlines Flight 007]] when it was shot down by the Soviets near [[Moneron Island]] in 1983.

== Personal conservatism ==
Because Conservatives often have strong political views, there can be a tendency to see conservatism as a purely political ideology. However, there is also a strong personal side to conservatism - being a conservative is as much about applying conservative values to one's everyday life as it is about campaigning and voting for conservative candidates. In general, conservatives can be characterized by a strong sense of personal [[morality]], a willingness to observe their culture's traditions and customs, and a desire to be respectable and to show due respect to other members of the community.
==History of American conservatism==
===Textbook problems===
College-level teaching about conservatism has been distorted by a "liberal state paradigm"--that is, textbooks usually interpret recent American history in terms of the origins and successes of political liberalism--especially the New Deal, the welfare state, labor unions, and Civil Rights for blacks and equality for women. Conservative politics is usually defined as a reaction: as a free market reply to the growth of big government; as an expression of outrage against declining support for tradition and Christian morality. Where the violent Wobblies (IWW) and illegal sit down strikes of the 1930s are seen as heroic, exposing Communist subversion by [[Joe McCarthy]] is denounced as the nadir of political morality.<ref> See Leonard Moore, "Approaching Conservatism," ''OAH Magazine of History,'' 17 (January 2003) [http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/conservatism/moore.html online edition]</ref>
===Loyalists===
The [[Loyalists]] of the [[American Revolution]] were mostly political conservatives, some of whom produced political discourse of a high order, including lawyer [[Joseph Galloway]] and governor-historian [[Thomas Hutchinson]]. However when the crisis came, they stood with the Crown as it tried to destroy American political liberties. After the war, the great majority remained in the U.S. and became citizens, but some leaders emigrated to other places in the British Empire. [[Samuel Seabury]] was a Loyalist who stayed and as the first American bishop played a major role in shaping the Episcopal religion, a stronghold of conservative social values. While the Loyalist political tradition died out totally it the U.S., it survives in Canadian conservatism.

===Founding Fathers===
The Founding Fathers created the single most important set of political ideas in American history, known as [[Republicanism]], which all groups, liberal and conservative alike, have drawn from. Two parties were named "Republican"-- the one founded in 1794 by Jefferson and Madison (it disappeared in the 1820s), and the modern GOP founded in 1854.

During the [[First Party System]] (1790s-1820s) the [[Federalist Party]], led by [[Alexander Hamilton]], developed an important variation of republicanism that can be considered conservative. Rejecting monarchy and aristocracy, they emphasized civic virtue as the core American value. The Federalists spoke for the propertied interests and the upper classes of the cities. They envisioned a modernizing land of banks and factories, with a strong army and navy. [[George Washington]] was their great hero.

On many issues American conservatism also derives from the republicanism of [[Thomas Jefferson]] and his followers, especially [[John Randolph of Roanoke]] and his "Old Republicans" or "Quids." They idealized the yeoman farmer as the epitome of civic virtue, warned that banking and industry led to corruption, that is to the illegitimate use of government power for private ends. Jefferson himself was a vehement opponent of what today is called "judicial activism".
<ref>[http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1030.htm]</ref> The Jeffersonians stressed small government.

===Ante-Bellum: Calhoun and Webster===
During the [[Second Party System]] (1830-54) the [[Whig Party]] attracted most conservatives, such as [[Daniel Webster]] of New England. [[Daniel Webster]] and other leaders of the [[Whig Party]], called it the conservative party in the late 1830s.<ref>The word was originally used in the French Revolution. The British used it after 1839 to describe a major party. The first American usage is by Whigs who called themselves "Conservatives" in the late 1830s. Hans Sperber and Travis Trittschuh, ''American Political terms: An Historical Dictionary'' (1962) 94-97.</ref> [[John C. Calhoun]], a Democrat, articulated a sophisticated conservatism in his writings. Richard Hofstadter (1948) called him "The Marx of the Master Class." Calhoun argued that a conservative minority should be able to limit the power of a "majority dictatorship" because tradition represents the wisdom of past generations. (This argument echoes one made by [[Edmund Burke]], the founder of British conservatism, in ''Reflections on the Revolution in France'' (1790)). Calhoun is considered the father of the idea of minority rights, a position adopted by liberals in the 1960s in dealing with Civil Rights.

The conservatism of the antebellum period is contested territory; conservatives of the 21st century disagree over what comprises their heritage. Thus William J. Bennett (2006) a prominent conservative leader, warns conservatives to NOT honor Calhoun, [[Know-Nothings]], [[Copperheads (politics)|Copperheads]] and 20th century isolationists.

===Lincoln to Cleveland===
Since 1865 the [[History of the United States Republican Party|Republican party]] has identified itself with President [[Abraham Lincoln]], who was the ideological heir of the Whigs and of both Jefferson and Hamilton. As the [[Gettysburg Address]] shows, Lincoln cast himself as a second Jefferson bringing a second birth of freedom to the nation that had been born 86 years before in Jefferson's Declaration. The [[Copperheads (politics)|Copperheads]] of the Civil War reflected a reactionary opposition to modernity of the sort repudiated by modern conservatives. A few libertarians have adopted a neo-Copperhead position, arguing Lincoln was a dictator who created an all-powerful government.

In the late 19th century the [[Bourbon Democrat]]s, led by President [[Grover Cleveland]], preached against corruption, high taxes (protective tariffs), and imperialism, and supported the [[gold standard]] and business interests. They were overthrown by [[William Jennings Bryan]] in 1896, who moved the mainstream of the Democratic Party permanently to the left.

The 1896 presidential election was the first with a conservative versus liberal theme in the way in which these terms are now understood. Republican [[William McKinley]] won using the pro-business slogan "[[sound money]] and protection," while Bryan's anti-bank populism had a lasting effect on economic policies of the Democratic Party.

[[William Graham Sumner]], Yale professor (1872-1910) and polymath, vigorously promoted a libertarian conservative ethic. After dallying with [[Social Darwinism]] under the influence of [[Herbert Spencer]], he rejected evolution in his later works, and strongly opposed imperialism. He opposed monopoly and [[paternalism]] in theory as a threat to equality, democracy and middle class values, but was vague on what to do about it.<ref>Curtis, Bruce. "William Graham Sumner 'On the Concentration of Wealth.'" Journal of American History 1969 55(4): 823-832.</ref>

===Early 20th century===
In the [[Progressive Era]] (1890s-1932), regulation of industry expanded as conservatives led by Senator [[Nelson Aldrich]] of Rhode Island were put on the defensive. However, Aldrich's proposal for a strong national banking system was enacted as the [[Federal Reserve System]] in 1913. [[Theodore Roosevelt]], the dominant personality of the era, was both liberal and conservative by turns. As a liberal he took a tough regulatory approach toward businesses and trusts, and (post-presidency) fought for social insurance for the elderly. As a conservative he led the fight to make the country a major naval power, and demanded entry into [[World War I]] to stop what he saw as the German attacks on civilization. [[William Howard Taft]] promoted a strong federal judiciary that would overrule excessive legislation. Taft defeated Roosevelt on that issue in 1912, forcing Roosevelt out of the GOP and turning it to the right for decades. As president, Taft remade the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]] with five appointments; he himself presided as chief justice in 1921-30, the only former president ever to do so.

Pro-business Republicans returned to dominance in 1920 with the election of President [[Warren G. Harding]]. The presidency of [[Calvin Coolidge]] (1923-29) was a high water mark for conservatism, both politically and intellectually. Classic writing of the period includes ''Democracy and Leadership'' (1924) by Irving Babbitt and H.L. Mencken's magazine ''American Mercury'' (1924-33). The [[Efficiency Movement]] attracted many conservatives such as [[Herbert Hoover]] with its pro-business, pro-engineer approach to solving social and economic problems. In the 1920s many American conservatives generally maintained anti-foreign attitudes and, as usual, were disinclined toward changes to the healthy economic climate of the age.

During the [[Great Depression, U.S.|Great Depression]], other conservatives participated in the taxpayers' revolt at the local level. From 1930 to 1933, Americans formed as many as 3,000 taxpayers' leagues to protest high [[property tax]]es. These groups endorsed measures to limit and rollback taxes, lowered penalties on tax delinquents, and cuts in government spending. A few also called for illegal resistance (or tax strikes). The best known of these was led by the Association of Real Estate Taxpayers in Chicago which, at its height, had 30,000 dues-paying members.

An important intellectual movement, calling itself [[Southern Agrarians]] and based in Nashville, brought together like-minded novelists, poets and historians who argued that modern values undermined the traditions of American [[Republicanism]] and civic virtue.

The Depression brought liberals to power under President [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] (1933). Indeed the term "liberal" now came to mean a supporter of the [[New Deal]] and Roosevelt's powerful [[New Deal Coalition]]. In 1934 [[Al Smith]] and pro-business Democrats formed the [[American Liberty League]] to fight the new liberalism, but failed to stop Roosevelt's shifting the Democratic party to the left. In 1936 the Republicans rejected Hoover and tried the more liberal [[Alf Landon]], who carried only Maine and Vermont. When Roosevelt tried to pack the Supreme Court in 1937 the conservatives finally cooperated across party lines and defeated it with help from Vice President [[John Nance Garner]]. Roosevelt unsuccessfully tried to purge the conservative Democrats in the 1938 election. The conservatives in Congress then formed a bipartisan informal [[Conservative Coalition]] of Republicans and southern Democrats. It largely controlled Congress from 1937 to 1964. Its most prominent leaders were Senator [[Robert Taft]], a Republican of Ohio, and Senator [[Richard Russell]], Democrat of Georgia.
[[Image:Gop-plank.JPG|thumb|275px|1936 cartoon shows GOP building its platform from the conservative planks abandoned by the Democrats]]

In the United States, the [[Old Right]], also called the Old Guard, was a group of [[libertarianism|libertarian]], free-market anti-interventionists, originally associated with Midwestern Republicans and Southern Democrats. The Republicans (but not the southern Democrats) were isolationists in 1939-41, (see [[America First]]), and later opposed [[NATO]] and U.S. military intervention in the Korean War.

===Later 20th century: Goldwater, Buckley, the Dixiecrats===
By 1950, American liberalism was so dominant intellectually that liberal critic [[Lionel Trilling]] could dismiss contemporary conservatism as "irritable mental gestures which seek to resemble ideas." <ref>Lapham 2004</ref> But just as Trilling was writing a revival was underway. In the 1950s, principles for a conservative political movement were hashed out in books like Russell Kirk's ''The Conservative Mind'' (1953) and in the highly influential new magazine ''National Review'', founded by [[William F. Buckley Jr.]] in 1955.

Whereas Taft's [[Old Right]] had been isolationist the new conservatism favored American intervention overseas to oppose communism. It looked to the Founding Fathers for historical inspiration as opposed to Calhoun and the antebellum South.

The success of the Civil Rights movement came in the Civil Rights Act of 1864 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Most conservatives supported both, but [[Barry Goldwater]] opposed them. Until then southern whites (both liberal and conservative) had been locked into the Democratic party. That lock was now broken and southern conservatives started voting for Republican candidates for president in 1964-68, and by the 1990s they were also voting for GOP candidates for state and local office. The southern blacks now began to vote in large numbers, and they became Democrats, moving that party in the south to the left. By 2000, for the first time, all southern states had a conservative GOP and a liberal Democratic party. The region favored the GOP heavily in presidential elections, but split in state contests. In 2008, however, the Obama campaign broke into the solid Republican South, carrying Florida, Virginia and North Carolina.

Goldwater, a charismatic figure whose intense opposition to all New Deal programs angered liberals, was defeated in a landslide in 1964. Goldwater faded and his supporters regrouped under new leadership, especially that of [[Ronald Reagan]] in California, and regained strength nationally in the 1966 elections. Conservatives voted for [[Richard Nixon]] in 1968, who narrowly defeated the New Deal champion [[Hubert Humphrey]], and southern demagogue [[George Wallace]]. Nixon had come to terms with both the Goldwater wing of the party and the still-influential Rockefeller Republicans (Republicans from the Northeast who supported many New Deal programs).

===Nixon, Reagan, and Bush===

The Republican administrations of President [[Richard Nixon]] in the [[1970s]] were characterized more by their emphasis on ''[[realpolitik]]'', [[détente]], and economic policies such as wage and price controls, than by their adherence to conservative rhetoric and more liberal actions.

In the eight years of [[Ronald Reagan]]'s presidency 1981-89 the American conservative movement achieved ascendancy. In 1980 the GOP took control of the Senate for the first time since 1954, and conservative principles dominated Reagan's economic and foreign policies, with [[supply side economics]] as well as a strict opposition to Soviet Communism. Reagan promised to cut welfare spending but failed to do so. He did cut taxes, but raised military spending and created large federal deficits of the sort conservatives had complained about for decades. They stopped complaining, as the deficit issue switched to favor the Democrats (who did balance the budget in the late 1990s).

An icon of the American conservative movement, Reagan is credited by his supporters with transforming American politics, galvanizing the Republican Party, uniting a coalition of economic conservatives who supported his supply side economic policies, known as "[[Reaganomics]]," foreign policy conservatives who favored his success in stopping and rolling back Communism, and social conservatives who identified with Reagan's conservative religious and social ideals.

==Reactions to Obama==
"Forty percent of Americans now self-identify as conservatives — double the amount of self-professed liberals — largely because independents are beginning to take sides." [http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/onprin/winter11/spalding.html]

Compare [[Progressive liberalism]].

==Conservatives in Australia==

Australia was once more conservative than England but sweeping [[gun control]] laws pushed the nation leftward toward greater dependency on government in the last decade. In 2009, opposition to government control based on alleged [[global warming]] galvanized conservatives there and they led the [[Liberal Party of Australia]] to a repudiation of an emissions trading scheme.<ref>http://www.smh.com.au/national/shock-result-as-abbott-wins-liberal-leadership-by-one-vote--ets-dead-20091201-k1uz.html</ref> Conservatives also support smaller political parties such as the [[Family First Party]].

==Conservatives in Britain==

In the United Kingdom, the [[Conservative Party]] is the major partner in the governing coalition. The party's current leader is [[David Cameron]].<ref>[http://www.conservatives.com Conservative party UK]</ref>

Up until the mid-19th century, the forerunners of the Conservatives were known as [[Tory|Tories]], and the name has persisted as a common nickname both for the political party and those believed to be in agreement with it. Since the mid-to-late 1970s, British conservatives have been defined by an advocacy of [[laissez-faire]] economics, privatization and lower taxation. In recent years the Conservative Party has moved away from the social conservatism which once characterized it, and the current party policy includes, for example, support for abortion on demand and gay civil partnership and the Kyoto Treaty and to oppose capital punishment (although it should be noted that such policies have little support among the party's grassroots membership) <ref>John Charmley, ''A History of Conservative Politics Since 1830'', (2nd ed. 2008) </ref>

Levels of prayer and worship are much lower in England and Wales than in the U.S., and religious issues thereby play less of a role in public discourse. However, religious issues remain a significant factor in [[Northern Ireland]] and in 2008 religious issues were significant during a special election in [[Scotland]].

In common with conservatives in many other countries, British Conservatives tend towards a patriotic rather than internationalist outlook, and are traditionally skeptical of the [[European Union]].

The broadcast media (dominated by the [[BBC]]) is almost exclusively liberal in tone. The print media is different with pro-Conservative newspapers like the ''Daily Mail'' , ''Daily Express'' and ''Daily Telegraph'' selling more copies than their rivals.<ref>[http://www.mediauk.com/the_knowledge/i.muk/An_introduction_to_newspapers_in_the_UK Media UK; Introduction to newspapers in the UK]</ref>

== Conservatism and the French Revolution ==

Conservatism in France and the continent generally arose in the after 1790 as a response to the radicalism of the [[French Revolution]].

== Benefits of Conservatism ==

Several facets of conservatism function in unison to make it an effective and powerful philosophy. Conservatism emphasizes personal freedom, independence, and initiative; this allows the [[best of the public]] to rise to their natural level of achievement. Conservatives recognize that [[big government]] fosters dependency and stifles individual achievement--and thus, weakens society as a whole.

At the same time, conservatives also recognize that with individual freedom comes individual responsibility. In the absence of a hand-holding [[nanny state]], it is imperative that each individual take responsibility for his own actions, and exercise his rights and freedoms wisely and with discretion. Thus, [[social conservatism]] is also critical to a successful society, as it emphasizes the importance of morality, duty, and responsibility to one's self and fellow men.

== Also See ==
*[[Conservative resources]]
*[[Previous Breaking News/Conservatives|Articles about '''Conservatives''' from previous "Breaking News"]]
*[[More News/Conservatives|Articles about '''Conservatives''' from "More News"]]
*[[Conservative Links]]
*[[Essay:Fair and balanced is not part of the Conservative platform]]
*[[Conservative politicians]]
*[[Liberal]]

==Further reading==
* Critchlow, Donald T. ''The Conservative Ascendancy: How the GOP Right Made Political History'' (2007)
* Filler, Louis. ''Dictionary of American Conservatism The First Complete Guide to Issues, People, Organizations and Events'' (1987), useful older encyclopedia
* Frank, Thomas. ''What's the Matter with Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America'' (2005), a liberal perspective [http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-America/dp/080507774X/ref=sr_1_1/103-4827826-5463040?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193685789&sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]
* Frohnen, Bruce et al eds. ''American Conservatism: An Encyclopedia'' (2006), the most detailed reference
* Judis, John B. ''William F. Buckley, Jr.: Patron Saint of the Conservatives'' (1988) [http://www.amazon.com/William-F-Buckley-Jr-Conservatives/dp/0743217977/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207759425&sr=8-1 excerpt and text search]
* Kirk, Russell. ''The Conservative Mind''. (7th ed. 2001). highly influential conservative history of ideas [http://www.historyebook.org/ online at ACLS e-books]
* Link, William A. ''Righteous warrior: Jesse Helms and the rise of modern conservatism'' (2008) 643 pages
* Micklethwait, John, and Adrian Wooldridge. ''The Right Nation,'' (2004) influential survey [http://www.amazon.com/Right-Nation-Conservative-Power-America/dp/B000F71124/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205919226&sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]
* Micklethwait, John, and Adrian Wooldridge. ''God Is Back: How the Global Revival of Faith Is Changing the World'' (2009)
* Nash, George. ''The Conservative Intellectual Movement in America Since 1945'' (2006), excellent scholarly history. [http://www.amazon.com/Conservative-Intellectual-Movement-America-Since/dp/1933859121/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241925238&sr=1-2 excerpt and text search]
*Pemberton, William E. ''Exit with Honor: The Life and Presidency of Ronald Reagan'' (1998) [http://www.questia.com/library/book/exit-with-honor-the-life-and-presidency-of-ronald-reagan-by-william-e-pemberton.jsp online edition]
*Perlstein, Rick. ''Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus'' (2004) on 1964 [http://www.amazon.com/Before-Storm-Goldwater-Unmaking-Consensus/dp/0809028581/ref=sr_1_1/103-4827826-5463040?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193684721&sr=8-1 excerpt and text search]
*Perlstein, Rick. ''Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America'' (2008) [http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/074324303X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241924189&sr=1-1 excerpt and text search]
* Schneider, Gregory L. ed. ''Conservatism in America Since 1930: A Reader'' (2003)
*Schoenwald; Jonathan . ''A Time for Choosing: The Rise of Modern American Conservatism'' (2002) [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=104931191 online edition] also [http://www.historyebook.org/ online at ACLS e-books]
* Schweizer, Peter, and Wynton C. Hall, eds. ''Landmark Speeches of the American Conservative Movement'' (2007) [http://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Speeches-American-Conservative-Movement/dp/1585445983/ref=sr_1_4/103-4827826-5463040?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193685365&sr=1-4 excerpt and text search]

== References ==
{{reflist|2}}

==External Links==
*[http://www.aim.org/wls/category/conservatives/ What Liberals Say - Category: Conservatives], [[Accuracy In Media]]
*[http://www.youtube.com/user/rescueKAL007#p/a/FD3DE4F0642C350C/0/1c8v-kgLvhM Pat Buchanan's "Crossfire" interview with [[Larry McDonald]] 3 months before downing of [[KAL 007]], Ron Paul intro]

[[Category:Conservative]]
[[Category:Taxation]]
[[Category:American History]]
[[Category:Reagan Era]]
[[Category:1960s]]
[[Category:New Deal]]

*[http://www.conservativedirectory.com Directory of Conservative Websites - Category: Conservatives], [[Politics]]

[[Category:Conservative]]
{{Conservatism}}

Talk:Mystery:Why is the Senate More Liberal than the House?

2011-07-26T17:50:23Z

Austenbosten: /* Interesting Note and My take */

== Is it possible that... ==

...those who are elected to the House tend to better represent the [[Best of the Public]]? Would it be possible to examine the overall backgrounds of House members as opposed to Senate members to ascertain how far their backgrounds are removed from the public? I suspect we would find that far fewer Senate members tend to have "common man" backgrounds, and thus, that it's easier for them to fall into the limousine liberal mindset. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 11:11, 24 July 2011 (EDT)

: Superb insight ... and I think the rules of the House are more welcoming to the [[best of the public]] than the clubby rules of the Senate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:59, 24 July 2011 (EDT)

== Interesting Note and My take ==

When the Kansas—Nebraska Act of 1854 was shoved through the Democratic-controlled Congress—despite strong opposition from the dramatically dying Whig Party—and signed into law by Franklin Peirce, it was the biggest setback for the Abolition movement since the Fugitive Slave Act four years earlier. The passage of this bill led to the formation of the Republican Party—and the final demise of the Whigs—and the first ever Republican-controlled House of Representatives in 1855. Yet even though the opposition held control of the House, the Democrats still held control of the Senate and thus it wouldn't be until the Election of 1860 before the Republicans took control of both Houses.

I think we still need to remember that the reason the Senate is more Liberal than the House, is because there is a laggard factor. Congressmen serve a term of two years, while a term is six years for a Senator. Six years ago the nation was very upset with the actions of Iraq and the response to Hurricane Katerina and thus it is important to look at the Senate as a window into the past. Now before someone starts talking about reforming the election process, remember that the US Constitution originally mandated that the Senate be elected by state legislatures—not popular vote—and if we look at the makeup of state legislatures in 2004 and 2006 we would see that the US Senate would have been made up of more Republicans than Democrats, because of Republican majority in state legislatures. My point; the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing the first time around! -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 13:42, 26 July 2011 (EDT)

Talk:Mystery:Why is the Senate More Liberal than the House?

2011-07-26T17:47:35Z

Austenbosten: /* Interesting Note and My take */

== Is it possible that... ==

...those who are elected to the House tend to better represent the [[Best of the Public]]? Would it be possible to examine the overall backgrounds of House members as opposed to Senate members to ascertain how far their backgrounds are removed from the public? I suspect we would find that far fewer Senate members tend to have "common man" backgrounds, and thus, that it's easier for them to fall into the limousine liberal mindset. --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 11:11, 24 July 2011 (EDT)

: Superb insight ... and I think the rules of the House are more welcoming to the [[best of the public]] than the clubby rules of the Senate.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:59, 24 July 2011 (EDT)

== Interesting Note and My take ==

When the Kansas—Nebraska Act of 1854 was shoved through the Democratic-controlled Congress—despite strong opposition from the dramatically dying Whig Party—and signed into law by Franklin Peirce, it was the biggest setback for the Abolition movement since the Fugitive Slave Act four years earlier. The passage of this bill led to the formation of the Republican Party—and the final demise of the Whigs—and the first ever Republican-controlled House of Representatives in 1855. Yet even though the opposition held control of the House, the Democrats still held control of the Senate and thus it wouldn't be until the Election of 1860 before the Republicans took control of both Houses.

I think we still need to remember that the reason the Senate is more Liberal than the House, is because there is a laggard factor. Congressmen serve a term of two years, while a term is six years for a Senator. Six years ago the nation was very upset with the actions of Iraq and the response to Hurricane Katerina and thus it is important to look at the Senate as a window into the past. Now before someone starts talking about reforming the election process, remember that the US Constitution originally mandated that the Senate be elected by state legislatures—not popular vote—and if we look at the makeup of state legislatures in 2004 and 2006 we would see that the US Senate would have been made up of more Republicans than Democrats, because of Republican majority in state legislatures. My point, the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing the first time around! -- [[User:Austenbosten|Austenbosten]] 13:42, 26 July 2011 (EDT)

Talk:Mystery:Why is the Senate More Liberal than the House?

2011-07-26T17:42:43Z

Austenbosten: /* Interesting Note and My take */

Talk:Mystery:Why is the Senate More Liberal than the House?

2011-07-26T17:41:44Z

Austenbosten: /* Interesting Note and My take */ new section