Conservapedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging

2008-06-06T15:50:31Z

Alfred123: /* Quotes to support my argument re:nazism */

Goodness... This article is remarkably pro-AWB - an organisation which, in the words of the author of the article, "''demands the maintenance of the division of White and non-White people''". [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Please attempt to justify your statement instead of just saying "It's pro-AWB". Cite something please.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:18, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Also the AWB amended its program of principles in 1988, omitting most references to race, as the emphasis of the group shifted on to culture.

Also the anti-Zionist statements present in the first program of principles were absent in the second.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:20, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Your implied support for the AWB stems partly from the subtle use of certain words and/or phrases to describe their opponents, whom you accuse of "demonising the movement's aims" (we all know the connotations of "demonisation" - that the "victim" is innocent) and subjecting the AWB to an " international media hate campaign" (placing the "bad guy" label squarely on the AWB's opponents).

The occasional violence of the opponents of the AWB is described as "cold-blooded", but the frequently mentioned and large-scale violence of the AWB (which, you claim, has been with the purpose of "defending" whites) passes without moral condemnation.

You accuse anti-AWB journalists of libel for using the phrase "neo-nazi" (although if you substitute the word "black" for the word "Jew" in early Nazi ideology I think you would have trouble telling the difference between that and AWB ideology - the difference being that the Nazis found themselves with enough power to carry out their horrific evil). Where these journalists legally found to have committed libel? If not, then this is just an outright lie.

The point is that the AWB is not a national socialist organisation and can therefore not be adequately described as neo-nazi. They are a cultural organisation.

I was referring to Greg Marinovich writing in his book The Bang Bang Club that AWB members took pot-shots at passing Black people in Bophuthatswana, when the official enquiry found the AWB to be responsible for only 5 of the 60 civilian deaths.

I am not a racist and I am not defending the actions of the AWB but they deserve neutral and unbiased reports. Everything I have written has been researched, if you can tell me where I wrote something which was, as you say, racist then I will not have a problem with you removing it.

There is nothing racist in the article.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:31, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

== Blanket term is unacceptable ==

When [[User:Murray]] editted the article he desiganted the Bophuthatswana coup as terrorist, even though, as part of the Afrikaner Volksfront, the AWB had the right to be in Bophuthatswana.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:36, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

== Quotes to support my argument re:nazism ==

"I am convinced that it (the AWB) is not neo-nazi, despite the media image which some newspapers have created"

Dr.Cornelius Mulder, former South African minister for information and leader of the National Conservative Party

On April 27 1987 the AWB held a meeting in Johannesburg in which an AWB member addressed the audience about the increasing number of Black and Colored people living in Johannesburg's suburbs, he said:

"We will chase the kaffirs out of the Jewish buildings"

The media, maliciously, reported that the AWB had said, "We will chase the Jews and Blacks out of Johannesburg", this is untrue.

More evidence. The AWB purposefully broke away from Koos Vermeulen when he formed the Afrikaner National Socialists, if the AWB were neo-nazis surely they would have embraced this?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:37, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

What is the word "kaffir"? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

It originates from a Muslim word meaning non-believer but it became a derisive term for Blacks in South Africa, equivalent to the n-word.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:49, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

But to say that the AWB was racist for using that term is unfair because it was in common usage amongst Whites at that time, just like how saying the n-word in 1930s Alabama or Texas did not make you racist, it was just a way of describing Blacks.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:50, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Talk:Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging

2008-06-06T15:49:07Z

Alfred123: /* Quotes to support my argument re:nazism */

User talk:Alfred123

2008-06-06T15:47:40Z

Alfred123: /* Have you been to South Africa? */

{{welcome|sig=[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:54, 5 June 2008 (EDT)}}

== "I oppose... ==

Abortion in any Christian society...." Presumably, then, you're okay with the aborting of non-Christian foetuses? [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, I don't care for what people do in their own countries. Eg in Saudi Arabia, that is their business and they can govern their country in a Muslim way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 10:53, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
: So I guess "love your neighbour" doesn't extend to fellow human beings in other countries? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:57, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::Phil, as far as this guy is concerned, "love your neighbour" doesn't even extend to the people in your '''own''' country if they don't have the same skin colour as you -- see his user page for his advocacy of a white Boer homeland. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 11:03, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::What fellowship can light have with darkness, Philip? (I might be paraphrasing a little).[[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 11:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
Advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist.

And I respect the right of non-Christians to do as they please.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred]]

If you were to start dictating to non-Christian nations what they should do then it would make the threat of Muslim extremist terrorism even greater. It is best to just leave them to deal with things in their own way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:21, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

You say "''advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist''". True - except it might if you advocate one group's rights entirely at the expense of another group's rights, especially when the group whose rights you dismiss (black South Africans) are in fact the ''indigenous people'' of the area in question.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Wrong. The Voortrekkers arrived in the Transvaal and Orange Free State first, long before the Bantus came down from their kingdoms to the north.

Only the Zulus were there and the trekkers, after being betrayed by Zulu King Dingaan, negotiated land rights with the Zulus in return for returning some cattle to the Zulu King which was stolen from him by a lesser Chief.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:36, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

: I might go along with leaving them to their own ends for reasons of practicality, sovereignty, and diplomacy, but not because "I don't care". [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:33, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

PeterSC if you dispute what I say then I'll suggest some reading material for you to go and read, because it is a common myth that Blacks populated the Boer republics before the Boers.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:37, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not interested in reading materials at the moment, but I'd still be very interested to hear what you suggest.

The Bantu were just one tribal group out of a number. The legal documents of the racist SA government during apartheid used the word as a general term to describe ''all'' blacks, a bit like describing all British people as "English". You seem to have adopted their technique. So the Zulu were there first? Thanks for the confirmation, I'm glad we agree on that point. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi. The Zulu were not in what is now known as the Transvaal or Orange Free State (they were empty) they were in the Natal, so my argument holds true that the Boers were there first.

Well calling the South African government racist is highly disputable, they were racialists yes, but not racists.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:55, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

And Bantu was not a tribal group, it was a word used to signify all Black African tribes from the equator downwards (source- Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping).

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

As for reading materials I recommend:

*The Afrikaners by GHL Le May
*Apartheid: A History by Brian Lapping
*The Boer War by Thomas Pakenham
*The Scramble for Africa by Thomas Pakenham
*The Boer War by Gregory Fremont-Barnes

So how was the apartheid system anything but racist? I'm sure our American friends on this site wouldn't hesitate in condemning the way many African Americans were treated for much of the 20th century as racist, and even that wasn't as extreme as apartheid. Exactly what are you views on the position of black Americans during this period. And, for that matter, what are your views on apartheid??? [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Apartheid, I don't feel I need to clarify my view on that, as you are all clever enough to have deduced where I stand.

As for the mistreatment of Black Americans, it was wrong, but I am not responsible, so I don't feel any guilt for it.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I did think that I had deduced where you stood on apartheid, but wanted you to clarify because I thought I had to be mistaken. Evidently not. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:38, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Where did you think I had stood on Apartheid?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:39, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'd quite like you to answer my original question before I answer your later question, thanks. But as you seem to want to avoid answering it: I think you stand exactly where you expect me to have "deduced" your position to be. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:43, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I support Apartheid, but not the human rights abuses commited against people under it (eg those tortured by the Security Branch of the police) and the land distribution to the Blacks should have been fairer (not 13% of the land, more like 50%).

So, to me, Apartheid was good in principle, but bad in practice.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:45, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I see. In answer to your question, I had you down as an apartheid supporter.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No worries. Seeing as how Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:"Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology"????
:<big><big><big><big>'''Please excuse me while I laugh hysterically.'''</big></big></big></big>
:Oh god, my sides. I think I've ruptured a lung...
:Warn me when you're gonna say something that clueless! [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 14:14, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

It's in the conservapedia guidelines.

Anyway where do you fit into this, have you made a constructive contribution to this discussion or are you here as a spectator?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:32, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:I know it's in the guidelines. It's a "lie". And for my part, I am a harmless sea creature :)
:Incidentally, I think '''Metapedia''' would be a more suitable wiki for you. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 19:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No, I can always go to Stormfront if I feel like rubbing shoulders with fellow White men. But to edit Metapedia would be preaching to the choir, as would posting to Stormfront, because everybody already agrees with me!

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Besides, my opinions are immaterial because I am here to contribute to Conservapedia articles in a constructive and fair way, not to discuss my opinions. But, thankfully, you are all now aware of where I stand on some issues, so there will be no need for further explanation.

Why are my opinions coming under such scrutiny anyway?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

:Because you're suspected of being a parodist. Nationalistic editors often are, so lay it on thinly, OK? :) [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

"Parodist"? What are you talking about? And thanks for the advice, but you guys brought up my opinions, if you hadn't I would never have revealed my opinions, because they are pretty irrelevent.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:17, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:Parodist = an editor who feigns a particular political affiliation purely to amuse themselves.
:Good luck to you, then. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah, I see, as in like a parody?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:58, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Yes. "Parodist." As in "Parody." Aren't you the clever one. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Aren't you the clever one needs a question mark after it, seen as how it is a question.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I have noticed how you have failed to respond to my question posed to you on the Nelson Mandela talk page. So I assume you will not be challenging my edits on that article any longer?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:12, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Done.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:23, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Can I say... ==

Allow me to say that I am new here, but I have in the 20 hours I've been here offered a lot of work to Conservapedia and have created two long articles, all of which were supported by references from reliable sources.

Yet a lot of people are launching vitriolic attacks against me, calling me racist and a troll. I didn't think this was the correct way of putting your views across.

I have cited sources for the things I have written in articles and you are all more than welcome to check up on those sources, they are all reliable. So why are a lot of you attacking me for simply re-iterating what another person has said?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:40, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Sources ==

Why do very few people on Conservapedia cite their sources? I just made an edit to the [[Desmond Tutu]] page and I was the only one to cite a source.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

...and then undermined it with POV unsuitable for an encyclopedia. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:07, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Excuse me? Tutu said was pleased about Whites fighting, yet he claimed to be a man of peace. Contradiction???

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I notice you are studying law? I'm considering that as a career , I've been reading law books since I was 9, and find it fascinating. Although our current legal system is awash with liberalisms that need to be stamped out by a truly nationalistic government.

I know you may disagree but I think there is a call for tougher sentencing on all crimes.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Your comments about him being willing to fight whites stem from a complete misinterpretation of his statement. It is not fact, it is your point of view and as such shouldn't be allowed on the page. By all means quote him, but your interpretation of the quote shouldn't tint the entry. I don't pretend to have the authority to do anything about it, I just think it's an important thing to mention. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 06:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Have you been to South Africa?==
Are you a south african? have you been to South Africa? The comments you make are in extremely poor taste, incorrect and are totally inappropriate.
I met a lovely (white) South african woman, have been welcomed into her family and heard their shame about being a part of that awful era. I have traveled through South Africa many times. From Jo-Burg to Cape Town and everywhere inbetween. I have spoken to blacks and whites. Been to slums and massive mansions and they all revere Mandela as a National Hero. I have been to the museums and heard the stories and you attitude would be entirely unwelcome in South Africa. And, if you were in S.Africa and you called a black man a Bantu, you would probably be beaten
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:28, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, my interest in South Africa stems from a friend I met when I started secondary school, he was born in Bloemfontein, but his family was forced to leave in 1996 due to the fact that the ANC government was screwing everything up. I decided to research what he had said and just become more and more curious as to how a European, civilised nation could crumble under a Marxist regime so easily and in such a short period of time.

Your opinion of my comments is utterly irrelevant to anything on here, and I find your comments inappropriate, so I guess it works both ways.

There is people who revere Mandela as a hero of South Africa and a lot who hate his guts, it just depends on who you prefer, I prefer the latter group.

My attitude would be unwelcome amongst some people there yes, but a lot would agree with me. Hence the AWB growing at an unprecedented rate, why? Simply because Whites are tired of seeing South Africa ruined by an incompetant regime, with farm murders, high crime rates, AIDS, Black Economic Empowerment, governmental corruption, power failures and the list goes on.

Please don't come and tell me South Africa is some kind of paradise since Apartheid collapsed because we all, you included, know that it is a worse place than it was under Apartheid.

I dunno where you are located but on BBC 1 some months ago there was a program called No More Mandelas, and in it a Black man who was hungry and unemployed said he wanted the National Party (yes the White regime) to come back, the show's presenter said, "That was a White government that oppressed you" and the Black man replied that at least under Apartheid he could get a job and was not hungry. I rest my case.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:43, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Also your comment about a Black man would beat me if I called him a Bantu, well I don't care really, it would just be more proof of my suspicions about the Blacks. Besides making a comment like you did is akin to all these idiots on forums who say, "If you said that to my face in real life I would knock you out", which is childish and ignorant, for a start it shows they are incapable of reasoned debate.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:49, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I am in absolute agreement about the corruptness of the ANC now, I met my girl because her family moved here to get away from it! However there is no excuse for your blanket racism either. Between the white rule and when Mandela resigend there was hope. What has come to pass now is no excuse for your blanket statements.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:02, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I should add, Alfred123, you have not been there. I have and one thing I can tell you is '''everyone''' is sick of the crime but, also, '''everyone''' is happy for the end of such discrimination.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:13, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I don't know whether because I'm 15 you think you can speak to me like I'm a child, saying things like "no excuse for" my behaviour, please stop talking like you are my teacher, it's ridiculous. Stop trying to say what is or is not appropriate to say.

Well if the current rate of miscenegation carries on then I guess within 100 years South Africa will have no Whites, and that is the disappearance of 4 million people. As Nick Griffin, another personal hero of mine, said, "Why should the world be reduced to a monoracial coffeee coloured society"? And he was 100% right.

Maintaining boundaries between the races is not bad, it prevents the world becoming a cultureless, mono-racial place. Do you want that?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:18, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DanH&diff=466942&oldid=466933 Here] you agreed with me that there is only one race, but just above you claim that there are different races. Also, you seem to overlook that God originally created mankind as a "monoracial cofeee (sic) coloured society". Genetically (perhaps that's why you should study it) Adam and Eve must have been mid-brown, and they being the only two people, it was ''definitely'' monoracial. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ is trying to get me banned, which is a cowardly tactic. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:So how long have you studied genetics?[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I have not studied genetics, but it does not take a geneticisit to see that absolute race mixing is wrong. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:Well nobody's suggesting absolute race-mixing (except for you). Also, thanks to factors such as vitamin D intake, environmental factors, sexual selection and genetic mutations, your nightmare scenario of will never come to fruition.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:31, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

: Huh? What's wrong about "race"-mixing? We are all of [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017:26;&version=9; one blood]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Nothing on a small scale. I had a friend who was half Black half White, but it does not mean that I would do what his mother and father did.

I am not advocating some KKK-style ban on race mixing, but I am saying it should not be overly-promoted to an impressionable public, not that it is wrong on a small scale. People who love one another have the right to show that love through marraige and having children, but if everyone married someone of a different colour what would we all be?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:44, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Philip I agreed with you there because I was not looking for upset anybody with my, admittedly controversial, opinions, but by constantly probing me about my views you have forced them out of me, and now you all turn around and call me racist, well people asked for my opinion on things and I gave them an honest one.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:46, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Besides we could argue all day long about whether God intended for racial barriers to be maintained, we are not going to agree are we?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:47, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Explain this man==
Hendrik Verwoerd. I want you to explain this man on this page for us. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 03:19, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
:Explain what this man did in South Africa, and why he's a personal hero to you. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:22, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

He is my hero because he allowed a disenfranchised people, the Bantus, to have their own countries, and he was a great humanitarian for doing this.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:45, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

User talk:Alfred123

2008-06-06T15:46:59Z

Alfred123: /* Have you been to South Africa? */

{{welcome|sig=[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:54, 5 June 2008 (EDT)}}

== "I oppose... ==

Abortion in any Christian society...." Presumably, then, you're okay with the aborting of non-Christian foetuses? [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, I don't care for what people do in their own countries. Eg in Saudi Arabia, that is their business and they can govern their country in a Muslim way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 10:53, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
: So I guess "love your neighbour" doesn't extend to fellow human beings in other countries? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:57, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::Phil, as far as this guy is concerned, "love your neighbour" doesn't even extend to the people in your '''own''' country if they don't have the same skin colour as you -- see his user page for his advocacy of a white Boer homeland. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 11:03, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::What fellowship can light have with darkness, Philip? (I might be paraphrasing a little).[[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 11:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
Advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist.

And I respect the right of non-Christians to do as they please.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred]]

If you were to start dictating to non-Christian nations what they should do then it would make the threat of Muslim extremist terrorism even greater. It is best to just leave them to deal with things in their own way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:21, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

You say "''advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist''". True - except it might if you advocate one group's rights entirely at the expense of another group's rights, especially when the group whose rights you dismiss (black South Africans) are in fact the ''indigenous people'' of the area in question.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Wrong. The Voortrekkers arrived in the Transvaal and Orange Free State first, long before the Bantus came down from their kingdoms to the north.

Only the Zulus were there and the trekkers, after being betrayed by Zulu King Dingaan, negotiated land rights with the Zulus in return for returning some cattle to the Zulu King which was stolen from him by a lesser Chief.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:36, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

: I might go along with leaving them to their own ends for reasons of practicality, sovereignty, and diplomacy, but not because "I don't care". [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:33, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

PeterSC if you dispute what I say then I'll suggest some reading material for you to go and read, because it is a common myth that Blacks populated the Boer republics before the Boers.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:37, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not interested in reading materials at the moment, but I'd still be very interested to hear what you suggest.

The Bantu were just one tribal group out of a number. The legal documents of the racist SA government during apartheid used the word as a general term to describe ''all'' blacks, a bit like describing all British people as "English". You seem to have adopted their technique. So the Zulu were there first? Thanks for the confirmation, I'm glad we agree on that point. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi. The Zulu were not in what is now known as the Transvaal or Orange Free State (they were empty) they were in the Natal, so my argument holds true that the Boers were there first.

Well calling the South African government racist is highly disputable, they were racialists yes, but not racists.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:55, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

And Bantu was not a tribal group, it was a word used to signify all Black African tribes from the equator downwards (source- Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping).

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

As for reading materials I recommend:

*The Afrikaners by GHL Le May
*Apartheid: A History by Brian Lapping
*The Boer War by Thomas Pakenham
*The Scramble for Africa by Thomas Pakenham
*The Boer War by Gregory Fremont-Barnes

So how was the apartheid system anything but racist? I'm sure our American friends on this site wouldn't hesitate in condemning the way many African Americans were treated for much of the 20th century as racist, and even that wasn't as extreme as apartheid. Exactly what are you views on the position of black Americans during this period. And, for that matter, what are your views on apartheid??? [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Apartheid, I don't feel I need to clarify my view on that, as you are all clever enough to have deduced where I stand.

As for the mistreatment of Black Americans, it was wrong, but I am not responsible, so I don't feel any guilt for it.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I did think that I had deduced where you stood on apartheid, but wanted you to clarify because I thought I had to be mistaken. Evidently not. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:38, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Where did you think I had stood on Apartheid?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:39, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'd quite like you to answer my original question before I answer your later question, thanks. But as you seem to want to avoid answering it: I think you stand exactly where you expect me to have "deduced" your position to be. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:43, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I support Apartheid, but not the human rights abuses commited against people under it (eg those tortured by the Security Branch of the police) and the land distribution to the Blacks should have been fairer (not 13% of the land, more like 50%).

So, to me, Apartheid was good in principle, but bad in practice.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:45, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I see. In answer to your question, I had you down as an apartheid supporter.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No worries. Seeing as how Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:"Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology"????
:<big><big><big><big>'''Please excuse me while I laugh hysterically.'''</big></big></big></big>
:Oh god, my sides. I think I've ruptured a lung...
:Warn me when you're gonna say something that clueless! [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 14:14, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

It's in the conservapedia guidelines.

Anyway where do you fit into this, have you made a constructive contribution to this discussion or are you here as a spectator?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:32, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:I know it's in the guidelines. It's a "lie". And for my part, I am a harmless sea creature :)
:Incidentally, I think '''Metapedia''' would be a more suitable wiki for you. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 19:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No, I can always go to Stormfront if I feel like rubbing shoulders with fellow White men. But to edit Metapedia would be preaching to the choir, as would posting to Stormfront, because everybody already agrees with me!

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Besides, my opinions are immaterial because I am here to contribute to Conservapedia articles in a constructive and fair way, not to discuss my opinions. But, thankfully, you are all now aware of where I stand on some issues, so there will be no need for further explanation.

Why are my opinions coming under such scrutiny anyway?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

:Because you're suspected of being a parodist. Nationalistic editors often are, so lay it on thinly, OK? :) [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

"Parodist"? What are you talking about? And thanks for the advice, but you guys brought up my opinions, if you hadn't I would never have revealed my opinions, because they are pretty irrelevent.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:17, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:Parodist = an editor who feigns a particular political affiliation purely to amuse themselves.
:Good luck to you, then. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah, I see, as in like a parody?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:58, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Yes. "Parodist." As in "Parody." Aren't you the clever one. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Aren't you the clever one needs a question mark after it, seen as how it is a question.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I have noticed how you have failed to respond to my question posed to you on the Nelson Mandela talk page. So I assume you will not be challenging my edits on that article any longer?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:12, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Done.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:23, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Can I say... ==

Allow me to say that I am new here, but I have in the 20 hours I've been here offered a lot of work to Conservapedia and have created two long articles, all of which were supported by references from reliable sources.

Yet a lot of people are launching vitriolic attacks against me, calling me racist and a troll. I didn't think this was the correct way of putting your views across.

I have cited sources for the things I have written in articles and you are all more than welcome to check up on those sources, they are all reliable. So why are a lot of you attacking me for simply re-iterating what another person has said?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:40, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Sources ==

Why do very few people on Conservapedia cite their sources? I just made an edit to the [[Desmond Tutu]] page and I was the only one to cite a source.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

...and then undermined it with POV unsuitable for an encyclopedia. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:07, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Excuse me? Tutu said was pleased about Whites fighting, yet he claimed to be a man of peace. Contradiction???

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I notice you are studying law? I'm considering that as a career , I've been reading law books since I was 9, and find it fascinating. Although our current legal system is awash with liberalisms that need to be stamped out by a truly nationalistic government.

I know you may disagree but I think there is a call for tougher sentencing on all crimes.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Your comments about him being willing to fight whites stem from a complete misinterpretation of his statement. It is not fact, it is your point of view and as such shouldn't be allowed on the page. By all means quote him, but your interpretation of the quote shouldn't tint the entry. I don't pretend to have the authority to do anything about it, I just think it's an important thing to mention. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 06:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Have you been to South Africa?==
Are you a south african? have you been to South Africa? The comments you make are in extremely poor taste, incorrect and are totally inappropriate.
I met a lovely (white) South african woman, have been welcomed into her family and heard their shame about being a part of that awful era. I have traveled through South Africa many times. From Jo-Burg to Cape Town and everywhere inbetween. I have spoken to blacks and whites. Been to slums and massive mansions and they all revere Mandela as a National Hero. I have been to the museums and heard the stories and you attitude would be entirely unwelcome in South Africa. And, if you were in S.Africa and you called a black man a Bantu, you would probably be beaten
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:28, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, my interest in South Africa stems from a friend I met when I started secondary school, he was born in Bloemfontein, but his family was forced to leave in 1996 due to the fact that the ANC government was screwing everything up. I decided to research what he had said and just become more and more curious as to how a European, civilised nation could crumble under a Marxist regime so easily and in such a short period of time.

Your opinion of my comments is utterly irrelevant to anything on here, and I find your comments inappropriate, so I guess it works both ways.

There is people who revere Mandela as a hero of South Africa and a lot who hate his guts, it just depends on who you prefer, I prefer the latter group.

My attitude would be unwelcome amongst some people there yes, but a lot would agree with me. Hence the AWB growing at an unprecedented rate, why? Simply because Whites are tired of seeing South Africa ruined by an incompetant regime, with farm murders, high crime rates, AIDS, Black Economic Empowerment, governmental corruption, power failures and the list goes on.

Please don't come and tell me South Africa is some kind of paradise since Apartheid collapsed because we all, you included, know that it is a worse place than it was under Apartheid.

I dunno where you are located but on BBC 1 some months ago there was a program called No More Mandelas, and in it a Black man who was hungry and unemployed said he wanted the National Party (yes the White regime) to come back, the show's presenter said, "That was a White government that oppressed you" and the Black man replied that at least under Apartheid he could get a job and was not hungry. I rest my case.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:43, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Also your comment about a Black man would beat me if I called him a Bantu, well I don't care really, it would just be more proof of my suspicions about the Blacks. Besides making a comment like you did is akin to all these idiots on forums who say, "If you said that to my face in real life I would knock you out", which is childish and ignorant, for a start it shows they are incapable of reasoned debate.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:49, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I am in absolute agreement about the corruptness of the ANC now, I met my girl because her family moved here to get away from it! However there is no excuse for your blanket racism either. Between the white rule and when Mandela resigend there was hope. What has come to pass now is no excuse for your blanket statements.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:02, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I should add, Alfred123, you have not been there. I have and one thing I can tell you is '''everyone''' is sick of the crime but, also, '''everyone''' is happy for the end of such discrimination.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:13, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I don't know whether because I'm 15 you think you can speak to me like I'm a child, saying things like "no excuse for" my behaviour, please stop talking like you are my teacher, it's ridiculous. Stop trying to say what is or is not appropriate to say.

Well if the current rate of miscenegation carries on then I guess within 100 years South Africa will have no Whites, and that is the disappearance of 4 million people. As Nick Griffin, another personal hero of mine, said, "Why should the world be reduced to a monoracial coffeee coloured society"? And he was 100% right.

Maintaining boundaries between the races is not bad, it prevents the world becoming a cultureless, mono-racial place. Do you want that?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:18, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DanH&diff=466942&oldid=466933 Here] you agreed with me that there is only one race, but just above you claim that there are different races. Also, you seem to overlook that God originally created mankind as a "monoracial cofeee (sic) coloured society". Genetically (perhaps that's why you should study it) Adam and Eve must have been mid-brown, and they being the only two people, it was ''definitely'' monoracial. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ is trying to get me banned, which is a cowardly tactic. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:So how long have you studied genetics?[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I have not studied genetics, but it does not take a geneticisit to see that absolute race mixing is wrong. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:Well nobody's suggesting absolute race-mixing (except for you). Also, thanks to factors such as vitamin D intake, environmental factors, sexual selection and genetic mutations, your nightmare scenario of will never come to fruition.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:31, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

: Huh? What's wrong about "race"-mixing? We are all of [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017:26;&version=9; one blood]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Nothing on a small scale. I had a friend who was half Black half White, but it does not mean that I would do what his mother and father did.

I am not advocating some KKK-style ban on race mixing, but I am saying it should not be overly-promoted to an impressionable public, not that it is wrong on a small scale. People who love one another have the right to show that love through marraige and having children, but if everyone married someone of a different colour what would we all be?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:44, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Philip I agreed with you there because I was not looking for upset anybody with my, admittedly controversial, opinions, but by constantly probing me about my views you have forced them out of me, and now you all turn around and call me racist, well people asked for my opinion on things and I gave them an honest one.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:46, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Explain this man==
Hendrik Verwoerd. I want you to explain this man on this page for us. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 03:19, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
:Explain what this man did in South Africa, and why he's a personal hero to you. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:22, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

He is my hero because he allowed a disenfranchised people, the Bantus, to have their own countries, and he was a great humanitarian for doing this.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:45, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

User talk:Alfred123

2008-06-06T15:45:10Z

Alfred123: /* Explain this man */

{{welcome|sig=[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:54, 5 June 2008 (EDT)}}

== "I oppose... ==

Abortion in any Christian society...." Presumably, then, you're okay with the aborting of non-Christian foetuses? [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, I don't care for what people do in their own countries. Eg in Saudi Arabia, that is their business and they can govern their country in a Muslim way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 10:53, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
: So I guess "love your neighbour" doesn't extend to fellow human beings in other countries? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:57, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::Phil, as far as this guy is concerned, "love your neighbour" doesn't even extend to the people in your '''own''' country if they don't have the same skin colour as you -- see his user page for his advocacy of a white Boer homeland. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 11:03, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::What fellowship can light have with darkness, Philip? (I might be paraphrasing a little).[[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 11:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
Advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist.

And I respect the right of non-Christians to do as they please.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred]]

If you were to start dictating to non-Christian nations what they should do then it would make the threat of Muslim extremist terrorism even greater. It is best to just leave them to deal with things in their own way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:21, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

You say "''advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist''". True - except it might if you advocate one group's rights entirely at the expense of another group's rights, especially when the group whose rights you dismiss (black South Africans) are in fact the ''indigenous people'' of the area in question.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Wrong. The Voortrekkers arrived in the Transvaal and Orange Free State first, long before the Bantus came down from their kingdoms to the north.

Only the Zulus were there and the trekkers, after being betrayed by Zulu King Dingaan, negotiated land rights with the Zulus in return for returning some cattle to the Zulu King which was stolen from him by a lesser Chief.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:36, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

: I might go along with leaving them to their own ends for reasons of practicality, sovereignty, and diplomacy, but not because "I don't care". [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:33, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

PeterSC if you dispute what I say then I'll suggest some reading material for you to go and read, because it is a common myth that Blacks populated the Boer republics before the Boers.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:37, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not interested in reading materials at the moment, but I'd still be very interested to hear what you suggest.

The Bantu were just one tribal group out of a number. The legal documents of the racist SA government during apartheid used the word as a general term to describe ''all'' blacks, a bit like describing all British people as "English". You seem to have adopted their technique. So the Zulu were there first? Thanks for the confirmation, I'm glad we agree on that point. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi. The Zulu were not in what is now known as the Transvaal or Orange Free State (they were empty) they were in the Natal, so my argument holds true that the Boers were there first.

Well calling the South African government racist is highly disputable, they were racialists yes, but not racists.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:55, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

And Bantu was not a tribal group, it was a word used to signify all Black African tribes from the equator downwards (source- Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping).

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

As for reading materials I recommend:

*The Afrikaners by GHL Le May
*Apartheid: A History by Brian Lapping
*The Boer War by Thomas Pakenham
*The Scramble for Africa by Thomas Pakenham
*The Boer War by Gregory Fremont-Barnes

So how was the apartheid system anything but racist? I'm sure our American friends on this site wouldn't hesitate in condemning the way many African Americans were treated for much of the 20th century as racist, and even that wasn't as extreme as apartheid. Exactly what are you views on the position of black Americans during this period. And, for that matter, what are your views on apartheid??? [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Apartheid, I don't feel I need to clarify my view on that, as you are all clever enough to have deduced where I stand.

As for the mistreatment of Black Americans, it was wrong, but I am not responsible, so I don't feel any guilt for it.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I did think that I had deduced where you stood on apartheid, but wanted you to clarify because I thought I had to be mistaken. Evidently not. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:38, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Where did you think I had stood on Apartheid?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:39, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'd quite like you to answer my original question before I answer your later question, thanks. But as you seem to want to avoid answering it: I think you stand exactly where you expect me to have "deduced" your position to be. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:43, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I support Apartheid, but not the human rights abuses commited against people under it (eg those tortured by the Security Branch of the police) and the land distribution to the Blacks should have been fairer (not 13% of the land, more like 50%).

So, to me, Apartheid was good in principle, but bad in practice.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:45, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I see. In answer to your question, I had you down as an apartheid supporter.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No worries. Seeing as how Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:"Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology"????
:<big><big><big><big>'''Please excuse me while I laugh hysterically.'''</big></big></big></big>
:Oh god, my sides. I think I've ruptured a lung...
:Warn me when you're gonna say something that clueless! [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 14:14, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

It's in the conservapedia guidelines.

Anyway where do you fit into this, have you made a constructive contribution to this discussion or are you here as a spectator?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:32, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:I know it's in the guidelines. It's a "lie". And for my part, I am a harmless sea creature :)
:Incidentally, I think '''Metapedia''' would be a more suitable wiki for you. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 19:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No, I can always go to Stormfront if I feel like rubbing shoulders with fellow White men. But to edit Metapedia would be preaching to the choir, as would posting to Stormfront, because everybody already agrees with me!

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Besides, my opinions are immaterial because I am here to contribute to Conservapedia articles in a constructive and fair way, not to discuss my opinions. But, thankfully, you are all now aware of where I stand on some issues, so there will be no need for further explanation.

Why are my opinions coming under such scrutiny anyway?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

:Because you're suspected of being a parodist. Nationalistic editors often are, so lay it on thinly, OK? :) [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

"Parodist"? What are you talking about? And thanks for the advice, but you guys brought up my opinions, if you hadn't I would never have revealed my opinions, because they are pretty irrelevent.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:17, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:Parodist = an editor who feigns a particular political affiliation purely to amuse themselves.
:Good luck to you, then. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah, I see, as in like a parody?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:58, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Yes. "Parodist." As in "Parody." Aren't you the clever one. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Aren't you the clever one needs a question mark after it, seen as how it is a question.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I have noticed how you have failed to respond to my question posed to you on the Nelson Mandela talk page. So I assume you will not be challenging my edits on that article any longer?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:12, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Done.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:23, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Can I say... ==

Allow me to say that I am new here, but I have in the 20 hours I've been here offered a lot of work to Conservapedia and have created two long articles, all of which were supported by references from reliable sources.

Yet a lot of people are launching vitriolic attacks against me, calling me racist and a troll. I didn't think this was the correct way of putting your views across.

I have cited sources for the things I have written in articles and you are all more than welcome to check up on those sources, they are all reliable. So why are a lot of you attacking me for simply re-iterating what another person has said?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:40, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Sources ==

Why do very few people on Conservapedia cite their sources? I just made an edit to the [[Desmond Tutu]] page and I was the only one to cite a source.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

...and then undermined it with POV unsuitable for an encyclopedia. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:07, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Excuse me? Tutu said was pleased about Whites fighting, yet he claimed to be a man of peace. Contradiction???

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I notice you are studying law? I'm considering that as a career , I've been reading law books since I was 9, and find it fascinating. Although our current legal system is awash with liberalisms that need to be stamped out by a truly nationalistic government.

I know you may disagree but I think there is a call for tougher sentencing on all crimes.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Your comments about him being willing to fight whites stem from a complete misinterpretation of his statement. It is not fact, it is your point of view and as such shouldn't be allowed on the page. By all means quote him, but your interpretation of the quote shouldn't tint the entry. I don't pretend to have the authority to do anything about it, I just think it's an important thing to mention. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 06:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Have you been to South Africa?==
Are you a south african? have you been to South Africa? The comments you make are in extremely poor taste, incorrect and are totally inappropriate.
I met a lovely (white) South african woman, have been welcomed into her family and heard their shame about being a part of that awful era. I have traveled through South Africa many times. From Jo-Burg to Cape Town and everywhere inbetween. I have spoken to blacks and whites. Been to slums and massive mansions and they all revere Mandela as a National Hero. I have been to the museums and heard the stories and you attitude would be entirely unwelcome in South Africa. And, if you were in S.Africa and you called a black man a Bantu, you would probably be beaten
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:28, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, my interest in South Africa stems from a friend I met when I started secondary school, he was born in Bloemfontein, but his family was forced to leave in 1996 due to the fact that the ANC government was screwing everything up. I decided to research what he had said and just become more and more curious as to how a European, civilised nation could crumble under a Marxist regime so easily and in such a short period of time.

Your opinion of my comments is utterly irrelevant to anything on here, and I find your comments inappropriate, so I guess it works both ways.

There is people who revere Mandela as a hero of South Africa and a lot who hate his guts, it just depends on who you prefer, I prefer the latter group.

My attitude would be unwelcome amongst some people there yes, but a lot would agree with me. Hence the AWB growing at an unprecedented rate, why? Simply because Whites are tired of seeing South Africa ruined by an incompetant regime, with farm murders, high crime rates, AIDS, Black Economic Empowerment, governmental corruption, power failures and the list goes on.

Please don't come and tell me South Africa is some kind of paradise since Apartheid collapsed because we all, you included, know that it is a worse place than it was under Apartheid.

I dunno where you are located but on BBC 1 some months ago there was a program called No More Mandelas, and in it a Black man who was hungry and unemployed said he wanted the National Party (yes the White regime) to come back, the show's presenter said, "That was a White government that oppressed you" and the Black man replied that at least under Apartheid he could get a job and was not hungry. I rest my case.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:43, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Also your comment about a Black man would beat me if I called him a Bantu, well I don't care really, it would just be more proof of my suspicions about the Blacks. Besides making a comment like you did is akin to all these idiots on forums who say, "If you said that to my face in real life I would knock you out", which is childish and ignorant, for a start it shows they are incapable of reasoned debate.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:49, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I am in absolute agreement about the corruptness of the ANC now, I met my girl because her family moved here to get away from it! However there is no excuse for your blanket racism either. Between the white rule and when Mandela resigend there was hope. What has come to pass now is no excuse for your blanket statements.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:02, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I should add, Alfred123, you have not been there. I have and one thing I can tell you is '''everyone''' is sick of the crime but, also, '''everyone''' is happy for the end of such discrimination.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:13, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I don't know whether because I'm 15 you think you can speak to me like I'm a child, saying things like "no excuse for" my behaviour, please stop talking like you are my teacher, it's ridiculous. Stop trying to say what is or is not appropriate to say.

Well if the current rate of miscenegation carries on then I guess within 100 years South Africa will have no Whites, and that is the disappearance of 4 million people. As Nick Griffin, another personal hero of mine, said, "Why should the world be reduced to a monoracial coffeee coloured society"? And he was 100% right.

Maintaining boundaries between the races is not bad, it prevents the world becoming a cultureless, mono-racial place. Do you want that?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:18, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DanH&diff=466942&oldid=466933 Here] you agreed with me that there is only one race, but just above you claim that there are different races. Also, you seem to overlook that God originally created mankind as a "monoracial cofeee (sic) coloured society". Genetically (perhaps that's why you should study it) Adam and Eve must have been mid-brown, and they being the only two people, it was ''definitely'' monoracial. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ is trying to get me banned, which is a cowardly tactic. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:So how long have you studied genetics?[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I have not studied genetics, but it does not take a geneticisit to see that absolute race mixing is wrong. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:Well nobody's suggesting absolute race-mixing (except for you). Also, thanks to factors such as vitamin D intake, environmental factors, sexual selection and genetic mutations, your nightmare scenario of will never come to fruition.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:31, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

: Huh? What's wrong about "race"-mixing? We are all of [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017:26;&version=9; one blood]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Nothing on a small scale. I had a friend who was half Black half White, but it does not mean that I would do what his mother and father did.

I am not advocating some KKK-style ban on race mixing, but I am saying it should not be overly-promoted to an impressionable public, not that it is wrong on a small scale. People who love one another have the right to show that love through marraige and having children, but if everyone married someone of a different colour what would we all be?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:44, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Explain this man==
Hendrik Verwoerd. I want you to explain this man on this page for us. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 03:19, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
:Explain what this man did in South Africa, and why he's a personal hero to you. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:22, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

He is my hero because he allowed a disenfranchised people, the Bantus, to have their own countries, and he was a great humanitarian for doing this.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:45, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

User talk:Alfred123

2008-06-06T15:44:03Z

Alfred123: /* Have you been to South Africa? */

{{welcome|sig=[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:54, 5 June 2008 (EDT)}}

== "I oppose... ==

Abortion in any Christian society...." Presumably, then, you're okay with the aborting of non-Christian foetuses? [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 10:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, I don't care for what people do in their own countries. Eg in Saudi Arabia, that is their business and they can govern their country in a Muslim way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 10:53, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
: So I guess "love your neighbour" doesn't extend to fellow human beings in other countries? [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:57, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::Phil, as far as this guy is concerned, "love your neighbour" doesn't even extend to the people in your '''own''' country if they don't have the same skin colour as you -- see his user page for his advocacy of a white Boer homeland. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 11:03, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
::What fellowship can light have with darkness, Philip? (I might be paraphrasing a little).[[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 11:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
Advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist.

And I respect the right of non-Christians to do as they please.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred]]

If you were to start dictating to non-Christian nations what they should do then it would make the threat of Muslim extremist terrorism even greater. It is best to just leave them to deal with things in their own way.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:21, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

You say "''advocating the rights of a nation of people does not make me a racist''". True - except it might if you advocate one group's rights entirely at the expense of another group's rights, especially when the group whose rights you dismiss (black South Africans) are in fact the ''indigenous people'' of the area in question.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Wrong. The Voortrekkers arrived in the Transvaal and Orange Free State first, long before the Bantus came down from their kingdoms to the north.

Only the Zulus were there and the trekkers, after being betrayed by Zulu King Dingaan, negotiated land rights with the Zulus in return for returning some cattle to the Zulu King which was stolen from him by a lesser Chief.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:36, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

: I might go along with leaving them to their own ends for reasons of practicality, sovereignty, and diplomacy, but not because "I don't care". [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:33, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

PeterSC if you dispute what I say then I'll suggest some reading material for you to go and read, because it is a common myth that Blacks populated the Boer republics before the Boers.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:37, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not interested in reading materials at the moment, but I'd still be very interested to hear what you suggest.

The Bantu were just one tribal group out of a number. The legal documents of the racist SA government during apartheid used the word as a general term to describe ''all'' blacks, a bit like describing all British people as "English". You seem to have adopted their technique. So the Zulu were there first? Thanks for the confirmation, I'm glad we agree on that point. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 11:49, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi. The Zulu were not in what is now known as the Transvaal or Orange Free State (they were empty) they were in the Natal, so my argument holds true that the Boers were there first.

Well calling the South African government racist is highly disputable, they were racialists yes, but not racists.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:55, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

And Bantu was not a tribal group, it was a word used to signify all Black African tribes from the equator downwards (source- Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping).

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

As for reading materials I recommend:

*The Afrikaners by GHL Le May
*Apartheid: A History by Brian Lapping
*The Boer War by Thomas Pakenham
*The Scramble for Africa by Thomas Pakenham
*The Boer War by Gregory Fremont-Barnes

So how was the apartheid system anything but racist? I'm sure our American friends on this site wouldn't hesitate in condemning the way many African Americans were treated for much of the 20th century as racist, and even that wasn't as extreme as apartheid. Exactly what are you views on the position of black Americans during this period. And, for that matter, what are your views on apartheid??? [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Apartheid, I don't feel I need to clarify my view on that, as you are all clever enough to have deduced where I stand.

As for the mistreatment of Black Americans, it was wrong, but I am not responsible, so I don't feel any guilt for it.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I did think that I had deduced where you stood on apartheid, but wanted you to clarify because I thought I had to be mistaken. Evidently not. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:38, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Where did you think I had stood on Apartheid?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:39, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I'd quite like you to answer my original question before I answer your later question, thanks. But as you seem to want to avoid answering it: I think you stand exactly where you expect me to have "deduced" your position to be. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:43, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I support Apartheid, but not the human rights abuses commited against people under it (eg those tortured by the Security Branch of the police) and the land distribution to the Blacks should have been fairer (not 13% of the land, more like 50%).

So, to me, Apartheid was good in principle, but bad in practice.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 13:45, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I see. In answer to your question, I had you down as an apartheid supporter.[[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 13:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No worries. Seeing as how Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:"Conservapedia doesn't ban on the basis of ideology"????
:<big><big><big><big>'''Please excuse me while I laugh hysterically.'''</big></big></big></big>
:Oh god, my sides. I think I've ruptured a lung...
:Warn me when you're gonna say something that clueless! [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 14:14, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

It's in the conservapedia guidelines.

Anyway where do you fit into this, have you made a constructive contribution to this discussion or are you here as a spectator?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 14:32, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:I know it's in the guidelines. It's a "lie". And for my part, I am a harmless sea creature :)
:Incidentally, I think '''Metapedia''' would be a more suitable wiki for you. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 19:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

No, I can always go to Stormfront if I feel like rubbing shoulders with fellow White men. But to edit Metapedia would be preaching to the choir, as would posting to Stormfront, because everybody already agrees with me!

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Besides, my opinions are immaterial because I am here to contribute to Conservapedia articles in a constructive and fair way, not to discuss my opinions. But, thankfully, you are all now aware of where I stand on some issues, so there will be no need for further explanation.

Why are my opinions coming under such scrutiny anyway?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

:Because you're suspected of being a parodist. Nationalistic editors often are, so lay it on thinly, OK? :) [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

"Parodist"? What are you talking about? And thanks for the advice, but you guys brought up my opinions, if you hadn't I would never have revealed my opinions, because they are pretty irrelevent.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:17, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
:Parodist = an editor who feigns a particular political affiliation purely to amuse themselves.
:Good luck to you, then. [[User:GHolland|GHolland]] 20:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah, I see, as in like a parody?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 20:58, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Yes. "Parodist." As in "Parody." Aren't you the clever one. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Aren't you the clever one needs a question mark after it, seen as how it is a question.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I have noticed how you have failed to respond to my question posed to you on the Nelson Mandela talk page. So I assume you will not be challenging my edits on that article any longer?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:12, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Done.[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:23, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Can I say... ==

Allow me to say that I am new here, but I have in the 20 hours I've been here offered a lot of work to Conservapedia and have created two long articles, all of which were supported by references from reliable sources.

Yet a lot of people are launching vitriolic attacks against me, calling me racist and a troll. I didn't think this was the correct way of putting your views across.

I have cited sources for the things I have written in articles and you are all more than welcome to check up on those sources, they are all reliable. So why are a lot of you attacking me for simply re-iterating what another person has said?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:40, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

== Sources ==

Why do very few people on Conservapedia cite their sources? I just made an edit to the [[Desmond Tutu]] page and I was the only one to cite a source.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

...and then undermined it with POV unsuitable for an encyclopedia. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 12:07, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Excuse me? Tutu said was pleased about Whites fighting, yet he claimed to be a man of peace. Contradiction???

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I notice you are studying law? I'm considering that as a career , I've been reading law books since I was 9, and find it fascinating. Although our current legal system is awash with liberalisms that need to be stamped out by a truly nationalistic government.

I know you may disagree but I think there is a call for tougher sentencing on all crimes.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 12:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Your comments about him being willing to fight whites stem from a complete misinterpretation of his statement. It is not fact, it is your point of view and as such shouldn't be allowed on the page. By all means quote him, but your interpretation of the quote shouldn't tint the entry. I don't pretend to have the authority to do anything about it, I just think it's an important thing to mention. [[User:PeteSC|PeteSC]] 06:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Have you been to South Africa?==
Are you a south african? have you been to South Africa? The comments you make are in extremely poor taste, incorrect and are totally inappropriate.
I met a lovely (white) South african woman, have been welcomed into her family and heard their shame about being a part of that awful era. I have traveled through South Africa many times. From Jo-Burg to Cape Town and everywhere inbetween. I have spoken to blacks and whites. Been to slums and massive mansions and they all revere Mandela as a National Hero. I have been to the museums and heard the stories and you attitude would be entirely unwelcome in South Africa. And, if you were in S.Africa and you called a black man a Bantu, you would probably be beaten
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 01:28, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, my interest in South Africa stems from a friend I met when I started secondary school, he was born in Bloemfontein, but his family was forced to leave in 1996 due to the fact that the ANC government was screwing everything up. I decided to research what he had said and just become more and more curious as to how a European, civilised nation could crumble under a Marxist regime so easily and in such a short period of time.

Your opinion of my comments is utterly irrelevant to anything on here, and I find your comments inappropriate, so I guess it works both ways.

There is people who revere Mandela as a hero of South Africa and a lot who hate his guts, it just depends on who you prefer, I prefer the latter group.

My attitude would be unwelcome amongst some people there yes, but a lot would agree with me. Hence the AWB growing at an unprecedented rate, why? Simply because Whites are tired of seeing South Africa ruined by an incompetant regime, with farm murders, high crime rates, AIDS, Black Economic Empowerment, governmental corruption, power failures and the list goes on.

Please don't come and tell me South Africa is some kind of paradise since Apartheid collapsed because we all, you included, know that it is a worse place than it was under Apartheid.

I dunno where you are located but on BBC 1 some months ago there was a program called No More Mandelas, and in it a Black man who was hungry and unemployed said he wanted the National Party (yes the White regime) to come back, the show's presenter said, "That was a White government that oppressed you" and the Black man replied that at least under Apartheid he could get a job and was not hungry. I rest my case.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:43, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Also your comment about a Black man would beat me if I called him a Bantu, well I don't care really, it would just be more proof of my suspicions about the Blacks. Besides making a comment like you did is akin to all these idiots on forums who say, "If you said that to my face in real life I would knock you out", which is childish and ignorant, for a start it shows they are incapable of reasoned debate.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 05:49, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I am in absolute agreement about the corruptness of the ANC now, I met my girl because her family moved here to get away from it! However there is no excuse for your blanket racism either. Between the white rule and when Mandela resigend there was hope. What has come to pass now is no excuse for your blanket statements.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:02, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I should add, Alfred123, you have not been there. I have and one thing I can tell you is '''everyone''' is sick of the crime but, also, '''everyone''' is happy for the end of such discrimination.
[[User:AdenJ|AdenJ]] 06:13, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I don't know whether because I'm 15 you think you can speak to me like I'm a child, saying things like "no excuse for" my behaviour, please stop talking like you are my teacher, it's ridiculous. Stop trying to say what is or is not appropriate to say.

Well if the current rate of miscenegation carries on then I guess within 100 years South Africa will have no Whites, and that is the disappearance of 4 million people. As Nick Griffin, another personal hero of mine, said, "Why should the world be reduced to a monoracial coffeee coloured society"? And he was 100% right.

Maintaining boundaries between the races is not bad, it prevents the world becoming a cultureless, mono-racial place. Do you want that?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:18, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:DanH&diff=466942&oldid=466933 Here] you agreed with me that there is only one race, but just above you claim that there are different races. Also, you seem to overlook that God originally created mankind as a "monoracial cofeee (sic) coloured society". Genetically (perhaps that's why you should study it) Adam and Eve must have been mid-brown, and they being the only two people, it was ''definitely'' monoracial. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ is trying to get me banned, which is a cowardly tactic. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:So how long have you studied genetics?[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:23, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I have not studied genetics, but it does not take a geneticisit to see that absolute race mixing is wrong. {{unsigned|Alfred123}}

:Well nobody's suggesting absolute race-mixing (except for you). Also, thanks to factors such as vitamin D intake, environmental factors, sexual selection and genetic mutations, your nightmare scenario of will never come to fruition.[[User:JPohl|JPohl]] 11:31, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

: Huh? What's wrong about "race"-mixing? We are all of [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2017:26;&version=9; one blood]. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 11:40, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Nothing on a small scale. I had a friend who was half Black half White, but it does not mean that I would do what his mother and father did.

I am not advocating some KKK-style ban on race mixing, but I am saying it should not be overly-promoted to an impressionable public, not that it is wrong on a small scale. People who love one another have the right to show that love through marraige and having children, but if everyone married someone of a different colour what would we all be?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:44, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

==Explain this man==
Hendrik Verwoerd. I want you to explain this man on this page for us. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 03:19, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
:Explain what this man did in South Africa, and why he's a personal hero to you. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 11:22, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Talk:Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging

2008-06-06T15:37:55Z

Alfred123: Quotes to support my argument re:nazism

2008-06-06T09:36:18Z

Alfred123: Blanket term is unacceptable

Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging

2008-06-06T09:34:33Z

Alfred123: Reverted as there was no racism in the first edition

Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging

2008-06-06T02:10:33Z

Alfred123:

Apartheid

2008-06-06T01:51:37Z

Alfred123: Corrected spelling of Hendrik Verwoerd from Hendrick to Hendrik

'''Apartheid''' (Afrikaans for ''Separateness''. Cognate with English "Apartheid Hood"), is a social and political policy of racial segregation and discrimination which was enforced by white minority governments in [[South Africa]] from 1948 to 1994.

==Verwoerd and the Bantustans==

Dr.Hendrik F Verwoerd, Prime Minister of South Africa from 1957 until 1966, re-organised Apartheid to avoid it acquiring negative connotations. Bantus (Blacks) were allocated homelands (Bantustans) in which they were eventually, during the second phase of Apartheid, to be moved permanently. Blacks employed in White South Africa were allowed to remain as migrant workers provided that they had their pass books and were gainfully employed. Verwoerd also changed the terminology associated with Apartheid, from Apartheid to seperate developement.

Blacks who had jobs deemed unrequired in White South Africa (as Whites filled them), such as Doctor or barrister, were despatched to their ethnicity-based homeland.

The homelands were pieced together from the 260 "native reserves" which had existed prior to the implementation of the Apartheid policy.

Coloureds (mixed race) and Indians were afforded equal rights in their designated areas but could not own businesses or land in White areas. Similarly Whites had their rights restricted in non-White zones.

==1983 Whites-only referendum==

In 1983 President PW Botha put the question of allowing Colored and Indian representation to the White electorate. 66% of Whites voted to allow Coloreds and Indians their own houses of parliament (called the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates respectively).

Although many ultra-nationalistic and conservative Whites attacked the move as it was power-sharing (which they feared would result in Black rule, and indeed it did some 11 years later).

==The Troubles==

The followers of Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi (Zulu King) and his Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) were staunchly pro-seperation and even entered into a short-lived non-aggression pact with the [[Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging|AWB]] in 1993.

However the African National Congress, who drew members from most other Black tribes, were pro-integration and, as such, Zulu workers who had migrated to White South Africa were frequently involved in clashes with ANC supporters in the townships (Black areas adjoining many White towns and cities).

Between 1986 and 1994 some 10,000 IFP members were murdered by ANC supporters, many in a brutal fashion, the practice of "necklacing" was very popular amongs ANC members. Necklacing entailed placing a petrol-filled tire around the neck of a victim and then setting it alight.

Many governments of the western world continued to support the white regime including conservative ones like [[Ronald Reagan]] <ref>http://www.theherald.co.za/colarc/cull/cu140604.htm</ref><ref>http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/11/1086749892845.html</ref><ref>http://newsmine.org/archive/coldwar-imperialism/africa/reagan-supports-apartheid-South-Africa.txt</ref> <ref>http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/06/09/reagans_heart_of_darkness/</ref> and [[Margaret Thatcher]].<ref>http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/aug/27/uk.conservatives1</ref>
[[David Cameron]], the current leader of conservatives in the united kingdom recently admitted the party was wrong, drawing comments Thatcher's former spokesman, Sir Bernard Ingham, who said: 'I wonder whether David Cameron is a Conservative.'<ref>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html</ref>

[[Nelson Mandela]] was jailed for attempting to over throw the government.<ref>http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Africa/04/Asmith/Asmith.htm</ref>
When the black population of South Africa was given the right to vote in the previously Whites-only areas, he was elected as President in 1994.

Former President [[Jimmy Carter]] infamously referred to the [[Israel]]i occupation of [[Palestine]] as "apartheid."

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Sources==

*Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping
*Bang Bang Club:Snapshots from a Hidden War by Greg Marinovich and Joao Silva

[[Category:South Africa]]

Apartheid

2008-06-06T01:50:31Z

Alfred123: All of my statements in the article are substantiated by other sources so DanH's revert was unjustified

'''Apartheid''' (Afrikaans for ''Separateness''. Cognate with English "Apartheid Hood"), is a social and political policy of racial segregation and discrimination which was enforced by white minority governments in [[South Africa]] from 1948 to 1994.

==Verwoerd and the Bantustans==

Dr.Hendrick F Verwoerd, Prime Minister of South Africa from 1957 until 1966, re-organised Apartheid to avoid it acquiring negative connotations. Bantus (Blacks) were allocated homelands (Bantustans) in which they were eventually, during the second phase of Apartheid, to be moved permanently. Blacks employed in White South Africa were allowed to remain as migrant workers provided that they had their pass books and were gainfully employed. Verwoerd also changed the terminology associated with Apartheid, from Apartheid to seperate developement.

Blacks who had jobs deemed unrequired in White South Africa (as Whites filled them), such as Doctor or barrister, were despatched to their ethnicity-based homeland.

The homelands were pieced together from the 260 "native reserves" which had existed prior to the implementation of the Apartheid policy.

Coloureds (mixed race) and Indians were afforded equal rights in their designated areas but could not own businesses or land in White areas. Similarly Whites had their rights restricted in non-White zones.

==1983 Whites-only referendum==

In 1983 President PW Botha put the question of allowing Colored and Indian representation to the White electorate. 66% of Whites voted to allow Coloreds and Indians their own houses of parliament (called the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates respectively).

Although many ultra-nationalistic and conservative Whites attacked the move as it was power-sharing (which they feared would result in Black rule, and indeed it did some 11 years later).

==The Troubles==

The followers of Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi (Zulu King) and his Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) were staunchly pro-seperation and even entered into a short-lived non-aggression pact with the [[Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging|AWB]] in 1993.

However the African National Congress, who drew members from most other Black tribes, were pro-integration and, as such, Zulu workers who had migrated to White South Africa were frequently involved in clashes with ANC supporters in the townships (Black areas adjoining many White towns and cities).

Between 1986 and 1994 some 10,000 IFP members were murdered by ANC supporters, many in a brutal fashion, the practice of "necklacing" was very popular amongs ANC members. Necklacing entailed placing a petrol-filled tire around the neck of a victim and then setting it alight.

Many governments of the western world continued to support the white regime including conservative ones like [[Ronald Reagan]] <ref>http://www.theherald.co.za/colarc/cull/cu140604.htm</ref><ref>http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/11/1086749892845.html</ref><ref>http://newsmine.org/archive/coldwar-imperialism/africa/reagan-supports-apartheid-South-Africa.txt</ref> <ref>http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/06/09/reagans_heart_of_darkness/</ref> and [[Margaret Thatcher]].<ref>http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/aug/27/uk.conservatives1</ref>
[[David Cameron]], the current leader of conservatives in the united kingdom recently admitted the party was wrong, drawing comments Thatcher's former spokesman, Sir Bernard Ingham, who said: 'I wonder whether David Cameron is a Conservative.'<ref>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html</ref>

[[Nelson Mandela]] was jailed for attempting to over throw the government.<ref>http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Africa/04/Asmith/Asmith.htm</ref>
When the black population of South Africa was given the right to vote in the previously Whites-only areas, he was elected as President in 1994.

Former President [[Jimmy Carter]] infamously referred to the [[Israel]]i occupation of [[Palestine]] as "apartheid."

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Sources==

*Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping
*Bang Bang Club:Snapshots from a Hidden War by Greg Marinovich and Joao Silva

[[Category:South Africa]]

Nelson Mandela

2008-06-06T01:47:20Z

Alfred123: Reverted edit to my last change as Alice provided no reasons for reverting it

[[Image:Mandela2.jpg|right|thumb]]

'''Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela''' (b. July 18, 1918 in the Transkei) is a [[South Africa]]n leader, and convicted terrorist, who fought hard against [[apartheid]] until he was imprisoned in 1964. He was released in 1990 and went on to become South Africa's president elected by a multi-racial electorate in 1994.

== Early Life and Political Socialization ==

Almost immediately, we see Mandela plunged into political life, as his father was the ‘right hand man’ to the Acting Paramount Chief of Thembuland (ANC archive). Although the reasons for his political socialization are evident and obvious, one ought to consider the ramifications of his environment; for instance, it can be argued that the class system in South Africa was in conflict with his ideals: “Ideologies and ideologists arise in class-divided societies…” (Ball and Dagger) If this is true, then it is vital to speak of Mandela and apartheid as two sides of the same coin.

Mandela’s primary education began in a local mission school, and his secondary education was completed in a Wesleyan institute in Healdtown. Around this time, he began to see cases in the Chief’s courts, many involving apartheid issues, and this primed him to want to become a lawyer instead of taking his father’s place in Thembuland politics (ANC archive).

Mandela’s earliest political experience came while enrolled at the University College of Fort Hare, where he was working to obtain a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. While at the college, he was elected to a student political organization known as the Student’s Representative Council. Soon after, Mandela was expelled for participating in a protest on campus (ANC archive). Because of this, Mandela attended Johannesburg where he finally obtained his BA. Soon after, he joined the [[African National Congress]] in 1942, during the height of [[World War II]].
Nelson Mandela’s personal fixation with freedom brought him to work with many other members of the African National Congress to form a group under the leadership of a colleague, Anton Lembede (ANC archive). The group’s main focus was to change the African National Congress into a mass movement, including all people from urban communities to those in the countryside\.

Mandela was instrumental in many political endeavors, many of which were anti-apartheid movements such as the Programme of Action, a policy based initiative which was founded on the principle of using the non-violent weapons of “boycott, strike, civil disobedience and non-co-operation” (ANC archive). This eventually became the modus operandi of the African National Congress.

And yet, some of our greatest leaders and role models have to resort to evil in order to do good. Mandela, being no exception to this, was the leader of an armed resistance group known as Umkhonto we Sizwe, formed in 1962. Mandela explains his reasoning:

“At the beginning of June 1961, after long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as long violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force.” –Nelson Mandela (ANC archive)

It was this notion, along with strong governmental apartheid sentiment that would eventually land Nelson R. Mandela in prison.

== Mandela in Prison ==

In contrast to his peaceful methods, Nelson Mandela, like many political activists, eventually found himself imprisoned. He was sent to the notorious Robben Island Prison where he would eventually serve twenty seven years (Battersby). He was one of the many victims of the Treason Trial. After the trial, the African National Congress was banned, and the already convicted Mandela was sentenced to prison.

Mandela was in prison for twenty seven years, during which he endured a radical transformation. Mandela, by self-admittance, had a temper problem prior to being incarcerated. During prison, however, he had to learn to control his anger. “One was angry,” says Mandela, “at what was happening [in apartheid in South Africa]- the humiliation, the loss of our human dignity. We tended to react in accordance with anger and our emotion rather than sitting down and thinking about things properly” (Battersby).

Nelson Mandela claimed it was the solitude in the prison cell that allowed one to think to oneself, allowing the nerves to become calm. In addition, many of Mandela’s prison mates were well-educated, well-traveled individuals. “When they told you of their experiences,” Mandela says, “you felt humbled” (Battersby). Mandela, while in prison, was also instrumental in the transformation of Robben Island from a ‘criminal’ prison to a ‘student’ prison.
Mandela had chances to prove his political worth while in prison, as well. During the seventies, Mandela was offered remission of his sentence if he recognized the apartheid racially segregated region of Transkei. He refused. Later, during the eighties, Mandela was given a second opportunity at remission, only this time he was asked to renounce the violence that some of his groups partook in. He, again, refused (ANC archive).

Indeed, during his prison time, Mandela proved to be a prime example of a strong believer in principle, while at the same time erupting as a shining light to others suffering alongside him.

Mandela could have been released in 1985, PW Botha offered him the chance to be released if he renounced public violence. Mandela refused to stop condoning violence. [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFDB1631F932A1575BC0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all]

==Mandela is Released==

Mandela, stepping out of his prison cell, faced a newly changed South Africa through the eyes of a newly changed man. Shortly after being released, Mandela and his colleagues agreed on the suspension of the armed struggle (Umkhonto we Sizwe). He was officially released from prison in 1990, and was eventually elected President of the African National Congress in 1991 (ANC archive). Later, in 1994, he was democratically elected President of the State of [[South Africa]].

Before retiring from public life in June of 1999, he had received over fifty honorary degrees at prestigious universities all over the world, and was chancellor of the University of the North (ANC archive).
Elsewhere in the world, Mandela has made several attempts to make peace, even with nations outside his personal safety realm. For instance, in October of 1999, Mandela met with leaders from Iran, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Gaza, and the United States. Although Mandela found these numerous meetings to be pleasant, he did mention that the [[Israeli]] prime minister, [[Ehud Barak]], rejected Mandela’s intervention into the conflict (Battersby).
Mandela went on to win the Nobel Peace Prize, in a respect, as a representative of those who stand for peace and combat racism. Mandela, in the wake of this, regards his winning of the Peace Prize as a tribute to the people of Norway who stood against apartheid for so many years while so many more remained silent (ANC archive).
Certainly, Nelson Mandela’s political career after prison is one which many could be both envious of, while at the same time stand in awe at such greatness.

==Mandela and President Bush==

In a September, 2007 speech defending the Iraq war, [[George W. Bush]] blamed Mandela's death on [[Saddam Hussein]]. Mandela was, in fact, still alive.<ref>[http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070921/wl_nm/safrica_mandela_bush_dc Mandela still alive after embarrassing Bush remark ]</ref>

==Closing Thoughts==

Nelson R. Mandela, in the wake of political turmoil, was one man who was both willing and able to stand up and fight back. Indeed, we can see how the man developed his legacy through his activist years, his years in prison, and his much more elaborate life afterwards.

However his refusal to renounce public violence casts him in a different light.

== Notes ==

Ball, Terence, and Richard Dagger. Ideals and Ideologies. Fifth ed. Pearson Education,
2004.

Battersby, John. "Mandela." Christian Science Monitor (2000)
"Birth of Freedom." Ed. Jon E. Lewis. New York: Gramercy Books.

Denenberg, Barry. No Easy Walk to Freedom. Ca-Print Harcourt Heinamann.

"Profile of Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela." African National Congress Archive

{{DEFAULTSORT:Mandela, Nelson}}

[[Category:Heads of State]]
[[Category:Nobel laureates in Peace]]

==References==

*Apartheid:A History by Brian Lapping (detailed Mandela's conviction for terrorism at the Rivonia trial)
*[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFDB1631F932A1575BC0A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all] Mandela's 1985 refusal to renounce public violence

<references/>

Talk:Nelson Mandela

2008-06-06T01:43:39Z

Alfred123: /* Mandela was convicted of terrorism */

Oh, a head of state. Wasn't he a terrorist, too? --[[User:Wing Nut|Wing Nut]] 14:38, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

:Quite right. The [[liberals]] are trying to cover that up.
:''4. We do not attempt to be neutral to all points of view. We are neutral to the facts. If a group is a terrorist group, then the label "[[terrorist]]" is used here but not on Wikipedia.'' (See [[Differences_with_Wikipedia]])
:[[User:BillyBoy|BillyBoy]] 14:43, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

If your definition of "terrorist" is elastic enough to include Mandela and the struggle for racial freedom in South Africa, it's elastic enough to include George Washington and the American Revolution. There are times when violence is the only available recourse in the pursuit of freedom. Apartheid - like "taxation without representation" was one of those times. [[User:Jacobin|Jacobin]] 17:51, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Such rediculous comparisons are hardly benignant or applicable Jacobin. The ANC (speaking specifically in regards to Umkhonto we Sizwe, of which Mandela was head) was under all prexisting contexts a terrorist organization, and cocurrently, there ''was'' a reason Mandela was in prison in the first place. Killing Civilians, especially women and children to reach your goals is hardly an admirable nor honorable action of which you so hastily ignore under the pretext of persuing racial freedom.
[[User:Willink|Willink]] 17:02, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

There is no mention of the Mandela's criticisms of Bush: a point that the liberal Wikipedia is not remiss in making. Conservatives would want to know what this man stands for. [[User:Jasonc65|Jason]] 10:33, 03 May 2007 (EDT)

== Mandela was convicted of terrorism ==

Nelson Mandela was convicted of terrorism by a court of law, it is irrelevant whether or not he is, in your personal opinion, a terrorist. He is a convicted terrorist, who was released prematurely for political reasons.

Some people don't consider Osama Bin Laden a terrorist, does that mean we should refrain from calling him one on his article?

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred]]
::Alfred, I hope you'll find that your desire to use this wiki as a soapbox for the rehabilitation of apartheid will be met with a cold shoulder at best. Trying to compare Mandela with Bin Laden is inexcusable. Yes, the ANC used violence in the fight against apartheid - as well they had to, since apartheid--like all colonialism--was a violent state of affairs. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 09:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I agree the National Party regime did use violence to control illegal protests and riots, but Mandela WAS convicted of terrorism, no matter how you look at it.

And since he was convicted of terrorism this should be included in his article.

I find you are being very unco-operative, talking of how you "hope" I will be met with a cold shoulder. This is not my soap-box for the "rehabilitation of Apartheid", I am merely editting articles to the best of my ability and knowledge.

All of the information I have put down has come from reliable sources, either newspaper articles or from history books. I have not fabricated anything.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:30, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

You say they "had to", that is an opinion and has no place in an article, does it? I am not saying what should or shouldn't have happened, I am saying what did happen.

Just because you oppose a system, does it give you the right to use violence to change it? If so then by that rationale 9/11 was okay? I think not. Please do not attempt to defend terrorism in any form.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 11:32, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

''And since he was convicted of terrorism this should be included in his article.'' Convicted by a legal system that used an evil brand of racist ideology to maintain the position of the privileged few to the detriment of an oppressed minority. A system that was the object of universal scorn of virtually every country that it shared a continent with and most of the people of conscience in the rest of the world. Really, I have no interest in validating the apartheid regime by recognizing Mandela's conviction for anything more than it was: Part of a racially-motivated attempt to keep a people down.
''Just because you oppose a system, does it give you the right to use violence to change it?'' Sometimes yes. At the risk of invoking Godwin's law this early in the debate (though you already seized the moral high ground by evoking 9-11, so I feel okay with this)- was there any otther solution that violence to the evil of Nazi Germany? Colonialism IS violence. Read Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth," he put it more artfully than I could ever hope to. [[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:22, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Opinions and more opinions. ''Evil brand of racist ideology'', ''detriment of an oppressed minority'' (are you referring to the Cape Afrikaner oppression of the Boer nation when you speak of an oppressed minority?).

Conscience, who are you to say what a conscience is or is not?

So if I decide I oppose a system I can start blowing up buildings, shooting people and generally behaving like a terrorist thug, that's nice to know. I'll keep that in mind if I hear a certain candidate wins the election in America.

Nazi Germany is immaterial, because that was a case of countries engaging in a war, not in a band of self-styled "freedom fighters" like the ANC trying to overthrow an elected government.

Well Mandela was convicted and whether your recognise it or not is pretty irrelevant to this article. Nelson Mandela is, in my opinion an evil man, whom I wish had been dealt with much less pleasantly than he was, but that is my opinion and should not come into how I edit the article. Just like your opinion of him should not influence your editting of the article either.

The argument that violence is okay in some cases but not in others cannot stand up.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Colonialism? That was precisely what Dr.Verwoerd wanted to avoid, hence him granting Bantus their own countries and allowing White South Africa to become self-sufficient. So colonialism has nothing to do with Apartheid.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:34, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

::I'm not going to argue with you. You've convinced me. Mandela was evil and fighting apartheid was wrong the same way 9-11 was wrong. It's all the same thing and the blacks of South Africa should have been content to live under the system as it was. One thing, though: "''like the ANC trying to overthrow an elected government. ''" Elected by WHOM? Does the fact that most of the people who lived under South African rule had no right to vote one way or the other not complicate your argument at all? And as for whether or not apatheid had anything to do with colonialism, why were there Europeans in South Africa to begin with?[[User:AliceBG|AliceBG]] 21:37, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

That is the same as saying Canadians should be allowed to vote in American elections, no they shouldn't because it is not their country. Similarly Blacks could vote in elections in their Bantustans.

Residency in a place is immaterial if you don't have citizenship.

Europeans were in Africa because they were, by enlarge, displaced people looking to start a new life. French Hugenots fleeing persecution following the Edict of Nantes and poor Frisians and Dutchmen.

[[User:Alfred123|Alfred123]] 21:43, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Talk:Nelson Mandela

2008-06-06T01:34:08Z

Alfred123: /* Mandela was convicted of terrorism */

Talk:Nelson Mandela

2008-06-06T01:32:14Z

Alfred123: mispelling corrected

Talk:Nelson Mandela

2008-06-06T01:31:16Z

Barend Strydom

2008-06-05T20:04:01Z

Alfred123: Strydom's controversial comments during his trial (Source-Victory or Violence:Story of the AWB of South Africa by Arthur Kemp)

User talk:Alfred123

2008-06-05T18:32:01Z

Alfred123: /* "I oppose... */