User talk:TedM

J. Edwin Orr

In regard to Wikipedia's deletion of the J. Edwin Orr article, I think that you are dramatizing things a little in portraying yourself as a victim of Wikipedia bias. Regardless of what happens here at Conservapedia, I'm assuming that among your goals, you would actually like to get an article about Orr into Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure we can do this and I'm willing to help with this if you're willing to meet me halfway.

The article you submitted to Wikipedia was not deleted because of a lack of notability, but because the article failed to assert notability. You didn't give any reason why Orr meets [WP:BIO, the criteria for including a biography, and you didn't take any of the necessary actions to defend it when it was marked for deletion.

So, let's try again.

First, I'd like to know the name of your public library, so I can see what resources they have available. Or, if you'd rather not tell me this (it's none of my business where you live), check yourself. They _may_ have _home online access_ to various databases like the Dictionary of National Biography.

Second, by Googling I learn that Orr wrote the hymn "Cleanse Me." Now, are you aware of any standard, well-known collections of hymns that include it? (Or any of his other hymns?) If so, I suggest the obvious "hook" would be something like:

Orr wrote the well-known hymn Cleanse Me, which was selected for inclusion in "Amazing Grace: 366 Inspiring Hymn Stories for Daily Devotions" author, year, etc.

That in itself would be more than sufficient to prevent it from being speedy deleted (without discussion) for "failing to assert notability," but there really needs to be more if we want to protect it from deletion. It would be much better if the article when submitted named some of his books and hymns and give at least one print source that mentions him.

As I say, I'll help with this if you like. I'm going to wait for you to come up with the first draft of an improved article, though. Dpbsmith 07:04, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

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Much material at http://www.jedwinorr.com, obviously. In establishing notability, I see that the site has the full text of a book by Orr, "Full Surrender," to which Billy Graham wrote an introduction. This appears to be the source of the quote appearing on the website's home page. So, the article can say:

Billy Graham stated that "J. Edwin Orr is, in my opinion, is one of the greatest authorities on the history of religious revivals in the Protestant world."

I think that would stick as evidence of notability. Dpbsmith 09:32, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Also his connection with the Campus Crusade for Christ... one of the founders: "The original Board Members of the Campus Crusade (1951) included: Henrietta Mears, Billy Graham, Dawson Trotman, Dan Fuller, J. Edwin Orr." Dpbsmith 09:35, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

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It should mention that "Cleanse Me" was written in 1936, that it is based on Psalm 139 and set to the aboriginal New Zealand Maori Song of Farewell. Dpbsmith 09:43, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

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Reply to your last message to me.

No, it wasn't deleted for lack of notability, but for failure to assert notability, although I agree that it's confusing.

On Wikipedia it is very much against the rules for an administrator to personally delete an biography based on nothing more than his own judgement that the person is not notable. A biography can be deleted for lack of notability, but it would have go through a formal deletion process with a five-day comment period, and would be measured against the specific criteria known as WP:BIO.

What "failure to assert notability" means is that a short article saying only "So-and-so was the author of dozens of books" could be deleted without discussion, but one saying "So-and-so was the author of dozens of books, including the 1987 best-seller thus-and-such" could not be.

I can't personally guarantee that the Wikipedia community would judge that J. Edwin Orr meets the WP:BIO criteria, but I think he does, and I'm certain the article would not get deleted without discussion if you write a somewhat better article to begin with.

When it is created, the article needs to make clear why the person is notable, and it has to give specifics.

Because the article has been deleted before, it's very important that any new article be in good shape before trying to re-create it again (or it can be deleted as "a re-creation of previously deleted material." You should draft it in your user space at Wikipedia first. Just saying "he wrote books and hymns" isn't enough. And it's important to cite sources, because a big part of what is behind the "notability" business is whether or not the facts in the article can be checked.

But I really think that if the article

• Quotes Billy Graham's calling him "one of the greatest authorities on the history of religious revivals in the Protestant world"
• Mentions him as one of the five original board members of Campus Crusade for Christ
• Mentions "Cleanse Me" (doesn't just say "he wrote hymns") and gives some of the background

that it will stick. Dpbsmith 13:33, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

I went ahead and created an article at Wikipedia

Since you didn't draft one, I went ahead and created one here. I'm not particularly well-known at Wikipedia, but I used a sockpuppet account anyway to ensure that any decisions about the article are made entirely on Orr's merits. Dpbsmith 20:50, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

It looks good! I can't see that one being deleted, although I guess we'll wait and see. Philip J. Rayment 06:27, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Stub template

Aschlafly has asked us to refrain from using the stub template whenever possible. DanH 22:11, 15 April 2007 (EDT)