Talk:Michael T. Flynn
Call for a major edit.
Mike Flynn is a fraud through and through. He is either a closet globalist, or a "bad" nationalist. Do recall that this website's article on "nationalism" states that there are both good and bad kinds of nationalism. Let me tell you what is wrong with Mike Flynn.
He lied to us repeatedly that he had "defected" from the establishment and were willing to help us in the battle against Islamism. Up until shortly after the election, I believed him.
But then it came out that he was on Erdogan's payroll. I immediately stopped supporting him afterward, because only fools and malcontents would be on the payroll of someone as evil as Erdogan. I repeatedly pointed out whose side he were on, and for a while, I was called every name in the book by fellow Trump supporters for it. But eventually, more and more caught on. Because once again, we're not as stupid as the establishment thinks.
Now, at first I couldn't understand why the man who wrote "The Field of Fight" would do such a thing. But after the Qatar crisis broke out and the subsequent Saudi-Turkish split took place, I figured it out.
Flynn only opposes Islamism of the Wahhabbi and Iranian variants. He doesn't mind Islamism of the Ottoman variant. That is why he doesn't bother to address Erdogan and his fanaticism in "The Field of Fight." Hell, he place more emphasis on Russia being an enemy than he does on Turkey being an enemy in that book, and considering that he was trying to forge friendly relations with Russia, that's saying a lot. That is also why he continued to refer to Turkey as an ally even after Erdogan openly admitted to having supported Wahhabism as part of his greater pan-Islamic strategy. Erdogan supported them because, in his own words, "they said Allah."
Now, let me guess why Flynn find the Ottoman variant of Islamism so appealing. Is it because it opposes the other two variants of Islamism that also spread worldwide terrorism, AND because it allows the establishment of client states that keep their non-Muslim culture and their heritage, so long as they support the jihad their Turkish masters wage against their common enemies?
Is Flynn saying to us, "Yes, submit to Erdogan. Recognize him as the Caliph. Support his jihad. As a reward for your loyalty to him, he will destroy your Saudi and Iranian enemies, and will bring all the Muslims back so they can live in the paradise he has created for them. And you will be left alone with your Western culture."? If so, he is a sick man.
Notice in the previous quote, I put in "left alone with your Western culture," and not "left alone with your Judeo-Christian culture" or even "left alone with your Christian culture." That wasn't an accident. Because an Ottoman client state would be anything but Christian in practice. If Erdogan ruled the world, he would have every single Catholic, Orthodox Christian, and Jew killed. They are the "Zionist-Crusader alliance," after all. The only "people of the Book" Erdogan would spare would be the Protestants. Why? Because Protestantism is based on personal interpretations of Scripture, as opposed to the guidance of a universal clergy. Why do you think many Protestant sects are beginning to embrace leftist ideals such as gay marriage today? And let's not forget the Church of England, which is now enforcing Sharia Law, IN ITS OWN SCHOOLS.
I'm sure Erdogan would LOVE to see America bend over backwards like that. "Sure, there won't be any Muslim migration, but they are bending over for me so often that they might as well be honorary Muslims. And perhaps they will convert to become actual Muslims eventually! EVENTUALLY! MWAHAHAHAHA! ALLAHU FUBAR!"
Well, we're not doing that. We're smarter than the establishment, and we're not gonna put up with frauds like Flynn any longer. And quite frankly, neither is Trump. That's why the many traitors supposedly "working" for him in the White House like Tillerson, McMaster, Kelly, and Mattis are coordinating to make sure he is restrained from doing what he must do: contain and destroy ALL forms of Islamism. And perhaps THAT is why Flynn now chooses to throw Trump under the bus. THAT is why he lied first to Pence and then to the FBI, and got himself indicted. To set Trump up. As revenge for Trump refusing to play the game Flunn wanted him to play, and instead turning America against Flynn's master, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a man so loathsome that Steve Bannon is now calling HIM a greater threat to America than Iran, North Korea, Russia, and even China!!!
You know, the left is bragging about how Flynn is going to be convicted of treason, or some crap like that, the left is largely incoherent these days. But after his dual loyalty to this wannabe Caliph was exposed, I hope to God that DOES happen.
- I take a different view. It appears there are people in the US intelligence community & Western alliance who are trying to cultivate the Gulenist movement, long term, as an counterpart to the Muslim Brotherhood. We definitely need an article on Gulen and the movement. Flynn is old school, wants to maintain the NATO alliance with a secular Turkish regime, and improve relations between Russia & NATO. While this view has lost out for now in Trump's first term, like Nixon, improving relations with Russia would be a top priority in a second term. Putin may even be gone after next year. RobSDeep Six the Deep State! 06:25, 3 December 2017 (EST)
- I don't trust the Gulenist movement at all. If Erdogan were replaced with Gulen, the new regime would arguably be just as bad, if not worse than the old one. Much like how Trotsky likely would have been just as bad, if not worse than Stalin had he won the power struggle between them. That being said, there is ZERO excuse for Flynn to be taking money from Erdogan and then publicly shilling for him as if he were a saint. It's a shame that most people aren't aware of just how dangerous Erdogan really is.
- This man has been plotting to create a super-caliphate that would be the Second Ottoman Empire for over forty years. As far back as the 1970s, he was organizing public events that were filled to the brim with pro-Islamist propaganda and were so anti-Semitic that you'd swear he memorized Mein Kampf (did I mention he publicly praised Adolf Hitler in a speech just last year?) word for word before getting to work. He also served as a leader of two different Islamist political parties (the Islamic National Salvation Party and the Welfare Party) during the 1980s and 1990s. In 1994, he was elected mayor of Istanbul on a pro-Sharia platform. Once in office, he initially attempted to govern more moderately, but he couldn't help himself, and was eventually forced to resign after being sentenced to ten months in prison (of which he served only four months) for publicly inciting pro-Islamist violence following the 1997 military coup. Gee. Doesn't that sound familiar? After being released from prison, he founded a new party, the Justice and Development Party (the AKP), and was elected PM in 2003.
- Since 2003, Erdogan has slowly transformed Turkey from the secular paradise that Flynn talks about, into a totalitarian, neo-Islamist dictatorship, where it's not uncommon to hear about violent, government-sponsored attacks on the Kurdish minority and on opposition outlets. In addition, Erdogan has drastically changed Turkey's foreign policy. Before he came to power, Turkey was a reliable American ally that pursued a largely isolationist (with a few exceptions, such as with Cyprus and Armenia) foreign policy outside of NATO affairs. Today, Erdogan's Turkey is a reliable supporter of global jihadist groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS. Erdogan's Turkey is becoming increasingly militaristic, regularly threatening to invade Syria and Iraq in order to "protect" ethnic "Turkmen" (in spite of Russian and Iranian attempts to appease Erdogan by allowing him to participate in the Syrian peace process). Notice I say "Turkmen" because these people are not Turkish. Erdogan is a pan-Turkic nationalist as well as an Islamist, and wants to unite the Caucasus and Central Asia under his leadership. This policy includes forging alliances with Turkish ultranationalist groups such as the Grey Wolves (which has been linked to many terrorist plots -- including the 1981 failed assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II -- and today try to incite ethnic violence in European countries with large ethnic Turkish populations). Erdogan's Turkey is vehemently anti-Israel, having given aid to Hamas and even publicly threatened to attack Israel on at least one occasion. Erdogan has also blamed the Jews for domestic opposition to his policies, as well as for the 2013 military coup in Egypt. Erdogan's Turkey is vehemently anti-Catholic, having declared on more than one occasion that the European Union is part of a Vatican conspiracy to destroy Turkey through another Crusade. Erdogan has also publicly called for a "breeding war" in Europe to ensure that Turkish Muslims eventually take control of the continent, in retaliation for this "conspiracy." In November 2015, Erdogan's Turkey almost started World War III after the Turkish military shot down two Russian fighter jets over Syrian territory on false pretenses. Erdogan's Turkey is a major sponsor of the Muslim Brotherhood and its agents that are trying to hijack American foreign policy, who threatened to assassinate President Trump after the Qatar crisis began. Erdogan's Turkey is trying to take control of $2.3 trillion in banking assets, presumably in order to fund its economy in military by 2023, the year that many (including Steve Bannon and Walid Shoebat) believe that Erdogan will formally declare himself Caliph 100 years after Turkey first became a secular country.
- This man means business, and he likely will continue to menace the West even after Putin leaves, be it in 2018 or 2024. --Geopolitician (talk) 12:16, 3 December 2017 (EDT)
- Turkey's support of Al Qaeda & ISIS is in keeping with US policy since the troop surge. There have been about three phases of the war on terror thus far: 2001-2006 focused on al Qaeda; beginning with the Troop Surge, the focus was redirected to Iran & Iranian proxy militias. After the US withdrawal from Iraq in late 2011, the US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, and others openly supported Sunni groups, including al Qaeda, to oppose Iran/Shite influence all the way to the Meditteranean coast, Syria, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Yemen, and elsewhere. Nobody in DC at the time imagined ISIS would start whacking heads or burn down the US embassy. But when it did happen, Flynn became the lone dissenter as one of 16 agency heads in the US intelligence community. When Flynn discovered weapons supplied through Qatar, intended for ISIS, were used to slaughter Americans in Afghanistan, he was outraged. He got booted from the IC.
- This man means business, and he likely will continue to menace the West even after Putin leaves, be it in 2018 or 2024. --Geopolitician (talk) 12:16, 3 December 2017 (EDT)
- Meantime since 2014 phase three of the war on terror has taken on a bigger priority - boosting the Gulenist movement as the premier Sunni group, as an alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood & Iran. Gulenists are being bred in the United States. Their object is to infiltrate police departments worldwide, primarily in the Middle East, but also Egypt, Africa, Europe, America, and elsewhere. Taxpayers in the United States are spending a half billion dollars a year to support 45,000 students in Gulenist charter schools in the US right now. This is a massive, ambitious, long term investment that the US deep state isn't about to let one guy, Flynn, disrupt.
- There's more to be said here about US-Iranian and US-Russian relations. But the overall plan does look like replacing Erdogen with Gulenists at some point. Flynn compares it to replacing the Shah with the Ayatollah, and openly opposes it. This is why he was silenced and discredited. RobSDeep Six the Deep State! 04:15, 5 December 2017 (EST)
- The Qatar Crisis you mention began when Trump (after Flynn left) shut down the arms smuggling pipeline Obama used to support ISIS. Flynn discovered some Stinger missiles Obama delivered to Qatari arms trafficers were sent to Afghanistan and shot down US helicopters. Some of the mysterious releases of Taliban commanders from Gitmo, that Obama took heat for, evidently was an effort to trade back some of those Stingers. The Qatar Crisis began when Trump demanded these rogue trafficers in Qatar be routed out and cut off from other members of the alliance, until the government of Qatar does a purge. Saudi Arabia is doing a similar purge at the moment. RobSDeep Six the Deep State! 05:04, 5 December 2017 (EST)
- You just stated "Turkey's support of Al Qaeda & ISIS is in keeping with US policy since the troop surge." Are you implying that all of Erdogan's behavior since 2011 was on the orders of the Deep State, and that his "break" from the Deep State means he is now one of the good guys? If so, then you are 100% wrong about Erdogan.
- Erdogan didn't take part in the support of al-Qaeda and ISIS because the US asked him to, or because he thought it was necessary to contain Iran. He did it because he's one of them. Did you read my reply to your initial reply? Erdogan's activities in Islamist circles can be traced as far back as the 1970s. He even served time in prison because he attempted to incite an Islamist uprising in Istanbul following the 1997 coup. Yes, he pursued more moderate policies for the first few years after he first became PM in 2003, but his turn back to Islamism predates the Arab Spring by several years, as early as 2007. Note that during his "moderate" years, Turkey was recovering from a major economic crisis. As Turkey's economy not only improved, but became one of the most promising of the world's major developing economies, Erdogan slowly began to take his "moderate" mask off. He never planned to govern as a moderate permanently. He has always planned to have Turkey become a great power that would be the true successor to the Ottoman caliphate by 2023.
- You also stated "Nobody in DC at the time imagined ISIS would start whacking heads or burn down the US embassy." That's also not true. Many people in DC -- along with the governments of the other countries who participated in this travesty -- knew what would happen as a result of arming al-Qaeda and ISIS. That's why they supported that policy in the first place. They WANTED ISIS to rise and begin causing chaos across not just the Middle East, but also the Western world. Why? A variety of reasons, ranging from excuses to impose more government tyranny to geopolitics to plain old Islamophilia. In Erdogan's case, he knows that the more unstable Turkey's neighbors are, the easier it is for him to expand Turkey's sphere of influence, if not its territory. Notice that it wasn't until after the rise of ISIS that Turkey began to establish a permanent military presence in both Syria and Iraq, without the permission of either country's governments.
- Now, let's talk about Gulen. Gulen was actually an ally of Erdogan until late 2013, when they had a falling out over Erdogan's domestic policies, NOT his foreign policy. The Saudis and their allies did not capitalize on this breakup immediately. At first, they ignored it. However, it slowly became apparent that Saudi Arabia was committing economic suicide by dramatically increasing military spending while oil prices continued to fall. In November 2015, the IMF released a report stating that Saudi Arabia would be bankrupt by 2020 if it continued its current spending patterns. Since that report was issued, Saudi Arabia has largely refused to heed its warnings. Why is that? Because it knows it's screwed either way. If Saudi Arabia stops its current spending pattern, it will lose its Cold War with Iran, and will cease to be the dominant power in the region. If Saudi Arabia spends its way into bankruptcy, the same scenario will play out. With this knowledge at hand, the Saudis are focusing on only one thing: lashing out. They are becoming increasngly belligerent because they know the end is near. By 2020, I expect the Saudis to be ready to launch one final war as a last ditch effort to prevent the inevitable. This war will be targeted at everybody who poses a challenge to its regional hegemony. 2020 is just over two years away. With Turkey not only rising, but also attempting to assert dominance of the Sunni world, the Saudis can no longer afford to have Erdogan as an ally, despite both being Sunnis. For the Saudis, Erdogan had outworn his welcome, and now had to be taken out.
- Now, where does the Deep State come into play? The Deep State always had an affinity for the Saudis. But it also always had an affinity for Erdogan. Two of its biggest and closest allies were about to turn on each other. Oh, what to do? The answer to that question is extremely difficult to figure out. One on hand we have Gulen, but on the other hand, we have Erdogan's behavior both during and after the coup. The to-the-wire escape? The fighter jets not shooting him down when they had a chance? The military folding to the post-coup uprising so easily? Erdogan stating that he knew there were pro-Gulen elements in the military but he deliberately ignored their allegiances and continued to embrace them "Because they said 'Allah?'" It appears (at least to me) that Erdogan knew at least some of the coup plotters' plans way in advance, and decided to play along with them for personal gain. Perhaps somebody within the Deep State told him what was going to happen. If that's true, then that could mean only one thing: there is no unified "Deep State." The "Deep State" is in fact a loose coalition of various subversive elements within the IC, that come together on various issues and fight against each other on others. In this case, the coup was a battle within the Deep State, between the pro-Saudi elements and the pro-Erdogan elements. And the pro-Erdogan elements won.
- Because of Flynn's ties to the Erdogan regime, I strongly suspect that he was not motivated by a desire to fight terrorism, but by a desire to protect Erdogan. I don't believe for one second that he didn't know what the Deep State's ultimate goal was before 2014. Everyone knew. It was common knowledge, even in the mainstream media. I suspect that the real reason Flynn was ousted from the IC was because he was one of the first members of the Deep State to see the upcoming Turkish-Saudi Cold War, and sided with Erdogan before others in the Deep State found it cool. Had he kept his mouth shut for another year or two, he likely would still have his IC position today.
- Now, let's take a look at the nature of this Turkish-Saudi Cold War. ISIS is Wahabbi. The same sect within Sunni Islam that the Saudis belong to. Historically, the Wahabbis and the Ottomans were bitter enemies because they were competitiors for control of the Sunni world. In the aftermath of last year's attempted coup in Turkey, this ancient emnity has been resurrected. Now, do recall that it was the Wahabbis that attacked us on 9/11. The image that many Americans have of the Islamic world today was created by the actions of 19 Wahabbi terrorists. Erdogan and his shills know this, and see this as a weakness for the American people. For this reason, they have borrowed rhetoric originally used by the Mullahs in Iran, stating that it is the Wahabbis, not all of Islam, that must be the target of the War on Terror. And they, like the Mullahs in Iran, follow up by stating that because they are the main regional opposition to Wahabbism, if you oppose their would-be Caliph, you are globalists who shill for the Deep State. This is Taqiyya at its finest, and its darkest.
- The first major battle of the Turkish-Saudi Cold War is the crisis in Qatar. Yes, its direct cause was the Saudis and the Qataris getting into a spat over the latter's arming of al-Qaeda and ISIS. But there is a much deeper meaning to the crisis. The Saudis are still in an alliance with the Wahabbis. Theyare not opposed to ISIS in principle. They are opposed to ISIS due to geopolitics. ISIS has always had a cozier relationship with the Turks due to its enmity towards the Saudi monarchy, which it views as not Islamic enough. Bin Laden held the same views about the monarchy, though that did not stop many in the royal family from privately supporting him, as they did with ISIS prior to the outbreak of the Turkish-Saudi Cold War. Meanwhile, one of Saudi Arabia's demands in its initial ultimatum was that the Qataris close a Turkish naval base in that country. Erdogan responded by threatening to respond militarily if there were any attempts to expel Turkish troops from Qatar, knowing full well that this would almost certainly result in a hot war between Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia ended up backing down, but the damage was done. What was before an unofficial cold war was now official.
- Since the failed coup and especially the Qatar crisis, Erdogan has done a complete 180 on geopolitical alignments. Before the failed coup, he was mostly pro-Saudi, though he had a love-hate relationship with Iran. Now, he's firmly in the pro-Iran camp, despite the fact that he's still fighting a proxy war with Iran in Syria. Same thing regarding Russia. As a reward, Russia and Iran -- despite Assad's protests -- have allowed Erdogan to have a less restricted reign in both Syria and Iraq, and now look the other way as he continues to build his own caliphate despite their own national interests. This turn of events is like Christmas to Erdogan. He now has a great power with the largest nuclear stockpile in the world essentially guaranteeing that he won't have to worry about American opposition to his plans, because the United States will face dire consequences if it dares to intervene. As relations with the United States continue to deteriorate, Erdogan has reached a point where he cannot afford to see the United States and Russia normalize relations. Should that happen, Putin will lose all incentive to continue supporting Erdogan. When the United States and Russia nearly brokered a peace deal in Syria last month, Erdogan was furious, and demanded that both the United States AND Russia withdraw from Syria. Since then, relations between the United States and Russia have re-soured, and Russia is actually in the process of planning a troop withdrawal, an event that will only allow Erdogan to expand Turkish power further into the Levant as Turkey and Iran prepare for war with Saudi Arabia over regional hegemony.
- As the outbreak of war draws closer, I expect more and more subversives within the Deep State to drop support for Saudi Arabia and promote the Turkish-Iranian axis -- which seeks to unite both the Sunni and Shiite worlds under the common cause of the Muslim Brotherhood. And when the war finally begins, so -- I believe -- will the next World War. Our goal now is to prepare for the inevitable. Bannon is perhaps the only major figure in the MAGA movement who is fully aware of what is about to happen. When he brings up foreign policy, all of us should listen from now on, especially President Trump. There is a reason we have fallen back in with the Saudis. There is no lost between us and them, but the cause is noble. A new age is beginning. A caliphate is rising, and it is not coming from the enemy we expected it to come from. There is no room for pointing fingers at the Wahabbis and saying that they are the only problem anymore. Flynn apparently does not see it that way. He has sold his soul to an enemy that is more powerful than most of us can possibly imagine. --Geopolitician (talk) 00:26, 21 December 2017 (EDT)
Revisiting the above topic, nearly two years later
Ugh. That above topic I created did not age well, at least in my opinion.
RobS, you were right about Flynn. He saw something that most of us did not, and was persecuted for it. I didn't understand what it was back in 2017, but now I see the light.
Flynn had a very good reason to support Erdogan even though he knew about his involvement with creating ISIS. The 2016 coup attempt was all about turning Turkey into a Saudi puppet. King Salman saw Erdogan as a threat because Turkey was becoming increasingly poised to replace Saudi Arabia as the leader of the Sunni Middle East. I'm not going to go into further detail on that, but basically the coup was only the first of a series of Saudi plots against the Erdogan regime. The Qatar crisis, the Khashoggi killing, and the deployment of Saudi troops into Northern Syria were other such plots.
The Saudis want Erdogan gone, plain and simple. If they can't remove him by coup or intimidation, then they will try to remove him by war. And they think they can easily win this war, because of the petrodollar. All they have to do is use their neocon allies in Washington to blackmail the White House into intervening in such a war on their side, by threatening to drop the dollar and destroy our economy overnight if the White House refuses. And to add insult to injury, such an event would have the US waging a war of aggression against a fellow NATO ally, which would have devastating consequences for Europe. It could even start a major European war, perhaps even a World War!
Flynn saw all this coming from a mile away, and as a patriot, he decided to do what he could to stop it. Unfortunately he failed, and he has been replaced by warmongers who are "yes men" to the Saudis. Before its too late, Trump needs to act. He needs to pardon Flynn, hire him back, and fire neocons such as Bolton and Pompeo (and if necessary have them prosecuted for conspiring to start a war on behalf of a foreign country). And he needs to, at least for now, normalize relations with Turkey (and if necessary Iran). Saudi Arabia is completely out of control and it needs to be contained before it does something that will put the blood of millions on its hands. --Geopolitician (talk) 16:34, 3 September 2019 (EDT)
- And to clarify, when I say normalize relations with Turkey and Iran, I don't mean ally with them or even forgive them for their own terrorist activity. I mean treat them as terrorist states but as lesser terrorist states than the Saudis. --Geopolitician (talk) 12:23, 5 September 2019 (EDT)
- Remaining questions: the only remaining questions about Flynn now are, Does President Trump award Flynn the Presidential Medal of Freedom before or after he delivers the Keynote Address at the Republican Convention where he leads the crowd in a chant of 'Lock them up!' RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:29, 16 March 2020 (EDT)